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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
March/April Book Club Online
Emma
by Jane Austen
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/emma/emmacvr.jpg) | "I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like” Jane Austen of Emma.
Will you like her, the heroine who Austen claimed was most like herself, and who inspired a movie called "Clueless"? If not, there's lots more to like in this classic novel of love, misdirection, and social class.
Schedule March 1-7 Chapters 1-7
QUESTIONS CHAPTERS 1 TO 7
1. Austen's plots revolve around a flaw in her heroine's character that she must recognize and resolve before she can be happy. What is Emma's flaw? What factors in her position, upbringing, and character contribute to this flaw and her lack of awareness of it?
2. Female friendships are important to Austen's heroines (as they were to her). How does Emma cope with the "loss" of her friend to marriage? Why does she chose to do that? What other choices might she have? What factors limit her choices?
3. Why does Mr. Knightley think the friendship with Harriet is bad for Emma? Do you agree? Is it good or bad for Harriet?
4. What picture does Austen paint of village life and the people in it? Would you have enjoyed living there? Why or why not?
5. What does the scene where Emma and Harriet read Mr. Martin's letter tell us about the character of the three people? how does Austen show us things without telling us?
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Text of Emma (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/158/158-h/158-h.htm)~~~ Emma review (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/nov/04/100-best-novels-jane-austen-emma) ~~~ Austen related books (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/jun/15/what-matters-in-jane-austen-review)~~~ Jane Austen biography (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/austejn/austen.html)
Discussion Leader:
JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Come join us in the wonderful world of Jane Austen, the "cameo" on which she writes. If you've been here before, you know what delights await you of humor, subtle characterization, and the small truths of life. If this will be your first visit, I envy you -- you may find yourself falling in love as I have.
In Emma, Austen does what she said an author should do: take a few families in a small town and see how their lives intertwine. You will recognize at least one of her characters as someone you've known for years and now know better, thanks to this woman who lived 200 years ago.
And at the center of the complicated dance she weaves is Emma, who someone called her most infuriating heroine, yet at the end, her most endearing. As The Guardian says she teaches us "that self-knowledge is a mystery, vanity the source of the worst pain."
Are you ready?
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Of course I'm ready. Everybody reads Jane Austin. Even Alfred Tennyson, as I've just discovered. He was visiting Lyme Regis. The stone pier, called the Cobb, was pointed out to him as the place where the Duke of Monmouth landed to raise the rebellion against James II which was crushed at Sedgemoor. "Don't talk to me of the Duke of Monmouth', said Tennyson. "Show me the exact spot where Louisa Musgrove fell and was taken up lifeless" (Literary Britain: A Reader's Guide, p195
Everyone must remember that from a recent discussion here.
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This Austen nut wouldn't stay away for anything. Every time I reread one of her books, I discover something new, or see things a bit differently. Can't wait to see what happens this time.
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I never read her. This is new. Will we start march 1?
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JONATHAN: how funny. Then he would be pleased we're following him with Austen. And I'm pleased you're coming with us.
PAT: YEAH, my other half is here.
And BLUEBIRD: WELCOME! WELCOME! I'll try to explain any strange customs or phrases that come up , but please ask if you find anything confusing.
Yes, we're starting March 1 if we get enough participants. Time to get your copy. But there is a link in the heading to the text, if you have any problems with that. (I know I have two copies, and can't find either of them!)
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Oh my goodness! I could not be any happier to be reading Emma, with the group. I adore Jane Austen. I fell in love with Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth Bennett in Pride & Prejudice, and had to continue with Sense and Sensibility, Persuasion, and Mansfield Park. So I am delighted Emma is our March discussion. Save a place at the table for me, and I will bring the tea!
I bought a very large book of Jane Austen's work years ago, so I already have Emma in this book.
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GREAT, BELLAMARIE. You bring the tea, and I'll bring the crumpets.
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One good thing, probably no one will face a waiting list at the library. ;)
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How about Cream Tea and Crumpets? I'll bring the Cream! I have also never read Austen but did enjoy the movies of "Pride and Prejudice" and "Sense and Sensibility". I think those are the correct Austen movie titles. Will wait to get my book at the library.
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JoanK., Crumpets! Yum!! Today is of course Fat Tuesday so I enjoyed a Paczki filled with custard for breakfast. Oh so good. I have to admit I am Italian and never understood the craze for Paczis, until I moved to Toledo, Ohio which is a city that raves for them. Cannolis, are more to my taste. Now what about crumpets? What exactly is a crumpet made of? Is it more of a hard shell pastry? This curious mind, will have to go on a Google search. I must say I am up for, anything sweet and made with dough.
Annie, I never drink tea without cream, so now we are all set. I can't wait for March!
Ah ha! Found it!
crum·pet
ˈkrəmpət
noun
a thick, flat, savory cake with a soft, porous texture, made from a yeast mixture cooked on a griddle and eaten toasted and buttered.
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQK8bviwTyG7FcXynq0t7juF9SlmOCPI7YwDZuXISv1AX81rYqUbA)
Paczki
Pączki are deep-fried pieces of dough shaped into flattened spheres and filled with confiture or other sweet filling. Pączki are usually covered with powdered sugar, icing or bits of dried orange zest. A small amount of grain alcohol (traditionally, Spiritus) is added to the dough before cooking; as it evaporates, it prevents the absorption of oil deep into the dough
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTrAHEvXpM3a_BbWdKZfcm5DeEXXSeVmbIvw74BVere_ySw1JPvIg)
Cannoli
can·no·li
kəˈnōlē/
nounNORTH AMERICAN
Italian pastries in the form of hard tubular shells filled with sweetened ricotta cheese and often containing nuts, citron, or chocolate bits.
(http://joeycannoli.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/cannoli_demo_3.jpg)
Oh my, I am hungry just looking at these yummy pastries!
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ANNIE: YEAH! You AND a cream tea for the discussion! What could be better!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but cream tea is different from tea with cream. "Tea" is a meal in England, served in the late afternoon. It consists of tea, little sandwiches, and pastries. If the offerings include Devonshire Cream (a concoction somewhere between whipped cram and yogurt), it's a "cream tea."
Do I have that right, ANNIE? I've been to two, and they were MAHVELOUS!!
BELLAMARIE: great pictures! I've had crumpets and cannoli (yum!) but paczki are new to me. Are they good?
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OH NO! I forgot about Lent! Should I keep my mouth shut about food?
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JoanK., Now that is interesting, "cream tea" is different than having cream in your tea. Yes, the paczki I had was very good today. It was filled with custard. I introduced them to my two granddaughters when they came in from school today. One liked the red raspberry filled one and the other did not. I will take a cannoli any day, over the paczki. The crumpet looks a bit like a bagel. I love bagels! Too late to not mention food.......
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JoanK, thank you. I want to learn Jane Austen.
Here is Emma found online
http://mollands.net/etexts/emma/index.html
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JoanK, I'll have the book by March lst, I have never been a Jane Austen reader. I'll be here reading the posts and hopefully, will have a remark or two; it's hard for me to be completely silent, as you know.
OH, WOW, BELLE! I'll take one of each. With our terrible weather I have not been able to get to the grocery or Panera's or any place where I can get such delightful pastries. I'm better off actually, may lose a pound or two and certainly need to. I'll never starve, we have two restaurants in the retirement center where I live.
Not long ago a delightful little pastry shop opened in our "Short North District" of Columbus, a district that attempts to retain the old look. We visited and bought a couple of wonderful looking "whatevers." But for some readon they just were not what I expected them to be, I was disappointed.
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Cream Tea means having crumpets with clotted cream on them and good old English tea. Clotted cream is a cross between ice cream and butter with the consistency of soft cream cheese.
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I'm a Latin student with Senior Learn and have an interest in joining the discussion of Emma. I do have a question about the structure of the course. Is there a reading assignment each week that will be discussed and does the leader guiide the discussion? Thanks, William Hull
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Welcome, William Hull! We usually have a certain amount of chapters we read each week. Our moderator will post it in the heading, and there are lead questions. We all pretty much just discuss the chapters, and the moderator tries to keep us on course, and time frame. Please join us, we have the most delightful discussions. It would be great having a man's point of view. I am a huge Austen fan, so I have to contain my excitement.
Annie, Cream Tea means having crumpets with clotted cream on them and good old English tea. Clotted cream is a cross between ice cream and butter with the consistency of soft cream cheese.
Thank you for the clarification of Cream Tea. Sounds yummy!
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Your enthusiasm is contagious! I will join and be mainly a listener to start with.
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Have you read Austen before, or is she a new author for you?
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It would be great having a man's point of view.
Hey, there's Jonathan too. The more the merrier.
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Oh PatH., Who could forget our dear Jonathan. Is he going to be joining us with Emma? That would be great!
William, lurk, listen and jump in when you are ready.
The first Jane Austen book I read was Sense and Sensibility. I do declare, it took me a while to catch on to the old English way of speaking. Like I told me friend who is also an Austen fan, Miss Austen uses fifty words when I could easily condense it down to ten. But now that I am familiar with her writing style and voice, it is fun for me. She allows us to get to know her characters in her books, and I feel as if I am right there in the room, a part of the friend and family group. My next read of hers was, Pride & Prejudice, and after reading that, I was a goner. She is now my most favorite author of all time!
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HULLWMR: WELCOME WELCOME! Hope you enjoy both the book and our discussion format. Yes, we start the formal discussion march 1st, and I post at the beginning of the week how far we'll read that week. We post discussion questions just to "stir the pot." Ignore them or use them to stimulate ideas, whichever.
Participate as much or as little as you want. No rules, except of course courtesy. And if you read ahead, don't post spoilers.
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Looks like that little furry guy in Pennsylvania's prediction about winter is spot on - we are scheduled for at least 2 more northers and maybe 3 and what better way to hole up than with Jane Austin - my new this year's flannel Pjs have really been broken in - hard to get out of them on a cold morning - a big corduroy shirt has been taking the place of a robe so that I feel less like I am really as lazy as I've been even if I am cozy warm.
How perfect to do Emma - it was first published in 1815 and here we are at 2015 - it will be fun to read the differences in 200 years. Seems to me they did not have robes yet and women used shawls however, I doubt they stayed all morning in their nightgowns regardless if made of flannel and cozy warm. I wonder now - hmm have to look it up if flannel was available or if it was rather a Linsey woolsey cloth.
ah ha - found it - "Flannel has been made since the 17th century, gradually replacing the older Welsh plains, some of which were finished as "cottons" or friezes, which was the local textile product. In the 19th century, flannel was made particularly in towns such as Newtown, Montgomeryshire, Hay on Wye, and Llanidloes."
And the flannel shirt is not that old, certainly not around for Jane Austen - "Carhartt (the clothing company) claim their founder invented the flannel shirt in 1889." However, another article says that during the late eighteenth century and early nineteenth century in Britain and Wales flannel was popular for women's undergarments and men's riding breaches and spats.
Well if Jane had flannel undergarments I too would hurry and dress in order to stay warm and cozy from the chilling drafts by wearing my flannel undies.
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BARB: I LOVE IT! From now on, I will imagine all of Austen's characters terribly elegant on top, and with their flannel undies on underneath (red, of course!).
Welcome to Austen and a flannel robe in front of the fire!
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Flannel undies! As Shirley Temple would say, "Oh my word!."
So here we are two hundred years later, reading Emma. My hubby and I were just watching Kevin Costner on the Ellen Degeneres show the other day, and Costner said he hopes his new movie Black and White will be one that they withstand the test of times. I told my hubby, there are not too many books or movies written in the past decade that I feel will stand the test of times. So many are just not memorable, they are a lot of fluff and forgotten easily. So I ask....
What is it that makes books, movies, music, or authors for that matter stand the test of time?
My guess personally is, it has to reach a really emotional spot in people's lives. Like leaving footprints on the soul that yearns to see it, read it, hear it, and feel it again and again. Be it because it brings a smile to your face, or tears to your eyes, or maybe just a peaceful feeling of home, love, comfort or wanderlust.
Many books, movies, songs and people have done this for me, and when I think of them, I just remember that first time I read it, saw it, heard it and felt it, and it puts a warmth in me that says, this will last forever. Jane Austen is one author who has truly left that footprint on my soul.
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That's a good point, Bellamarie. Everybody, have you read any book written in the last ten years that you think will stand the test of time?
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I've never read Jane Austen nor have I seen any of the movies. Always thought I would be bored but after reading all your comments I'll give it a try. First book, Boys in the Boat, I read too fast. With Emma I'll try to stay with the schedule so I can participate in the discussion.
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WELCOME, WELCOME HALCYON! I'll try to see you aren't bored!
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The discussion starts March 1st (Sunday). the first week, We'll read chapters 1 through 7. let me know if this is too long or short for you (it's 34 pages in my book).
Those of us who don't read many English novels are sometimes put off by different uses of words or customs. If you encounter any that puzzle you, post them here. I have sources that explain most of them.
Two struck me on reading. Austen talks about "understanding" and "powers" where we would use the words "intelligence" and "ability." (When she introduces a character, she always tells us how intelligent they are or aren't. It becomes part of the plot, as when "Emma is spoiled because she's the cleverest in the family").
And the snobbishness. Emma, a lady (daughter of a gentleman) can't be friends with a farmers wife because a farmer is not a gentleman (i.e. someone who is either too rich to need to work, or is in one of the few professions considered suitable for a gentleman (the military, law, the clergy). She is a snob, but she is also probably right. This was the rule at the time: if she had flaunted it, her reputation in this gossipy town would suffer, and for a woman, reputation is everything. Mr. Knightly, a gentleman, can be friends with the farmer, but men had more freedom than women.
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Just a bit of a tip for those who are not familiar with Austen's writing, she introduces many characters in her first chapters. I always have a notepad and pen with me, and jot the characters down, and how they are related, and what their career is. I glance back at my list of characters from time to time, until I finally feel I know who they are and how they fit in. If any of you watch Downton Abbey, vision the setting of Downton, and it helps visually with places in this story.
JoanK., that is a very good analysis of Emma's character and way of speaking. It seems the English who were of a certain social status and income, have always been portrayed to be snobs. As you read on, you will see the more caring and thoughtful ways of Emma. So, my suggestion to the newcomers is, bear with Austen/Emma. You won't regret it, I have yet to be disappointed with Austen.
JoanK., I think reading chapters 1-7 is a bit short, but then I have no idea where the storyline goes, or how you want to divide the chapters as for our timeline for March. We could see how the discussion goes, and if it seems we need to go further on, we always can do that. With the introduction of characters, places and events, it may be better to keep it short. I am up for anything!
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Bellamarie Thanks for the suggestion of jotting down the names of the characters. It is rather annoying to keep flipping back to remember who's who.
JoanK With your questions and insight moving us along I'm sure I'll stay interested.
I recently read that Emma is one of the top 100 novels of all time.
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Started to read the online version - thanks JoanK now I do not have to dig out my copy that includes all the books written by Jane Austen I can simply hit the link in the heading - anyhow I can hardly contain myself as right off the bat I see things I cannot remember seeing in past readings - my head picture of women wearing the flimsy dresses of 1815 is difficult right now with all this cold weather but I have to remember underneath was flannel and over the shoulders were warm shawls and a cup of hot tea was at their beck and call - the only difference I have to make is I have pulled out buried in my sock drawer a pair of thick wool socks that I have slipped over some houseshoes while sitting here reading and writing. Oh yes, and I have coffee rather than tea :)
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BELLAMARIE: what a good suggestion! Especially now I'm older, I find myself more and more often saying "who is he again?" It's especially annoying in a mystery story, when the murderer is revealed!
yes, Emma does require patience, but you'll see, she's worth it. It's Mr. Knightley's analysis of her character, not mine.
I chose a shorter segment for those of us who are unfamiliar with Austen and the period. We can speed up later.
HALCYON: thanks. Hope you're right.
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Wonderful questions, JK! I have in my hands a beautiful copy of the book; it was a tribute gift to the library and is hardbound with an aqua cover on which are lovely white chairs with striped seats.
Before Chapter I is a Chronology of Jane Austen's life and the major events happening in Europe at the time, followed by about 12 pages of Introduction, Notes to the Introduction, Further Reading and one page of Note on Text.
Then comes the majestic dedication:
TO HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS, THE PRINCE REGENT, THIS WORK IS, BY HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS'S PERMISSION, MOST RESPECTFULLY DEDICATED, BY HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS'S DUTIFUL AND OBEDIENT HUMBLE SERVANT, THE AUTHOR.
I've peeked in the first two chapters, just one tidbit that needs clarification - Emma's father has been a "valetudinarian" all his life - ????? Not "just one" - let's say many more
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ELLA IS IN EMMA! YEAH!
Valetudinarian is what we would call a hypochondriac. He's always fussing about his health and is afraid of going anywhere.
I noticed another one. "Consequence" means rank. Emma's family is of the highest rank in the town. This is important, because it limits Emma's opportunities to make friends and meet eligible young men. Normally in such a family, the mother would arrange opportunities for her daughter to meet other young people of suitable "consequence", by spending part of the year in someplace "fashionable", (London or a fashionable resort). Her father could easily do so, since there is family in London she could stay with. But he's too selfish and busy worrying about his health to think of Emma's future.
So "consequence" and "Valetudinarianism" limit her to a very narrow sphere.
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WOW, JK - that took some time to spell, hahahaha Thanks for the help.
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I didn't spell it. I copied yours and added "ism". ;)
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The discussion starts tomorrow (Sunday). You all will probably be on before me (with my California time, and late-waking habits). New Austenites, let me know how it's going.
Tea and crumpets on Sunday. See you there. (Mr. Woodhouse is worried about the weather and says he will stay home, but the rest of us will be there.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
March/April Book Club Online
Emma
by Jane Austen
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/emma/emmacvr.jpg) | "I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like” Jane Austen of Emma.
Will you like her, the heroine who Austen claimed was most like herself, and who inspired a movie called "Clueless"? If not, there's lots more to like in this classic novel of love, misdirection, and social class.
Schedule March 1-7 Chapters 1-7
QUESTIONS CHAPTERS 1 TO 7
1. Austen's plots revolve around a flaw in her heroine's character that she must recognize and resolve before she can be happy. What is Emma's flaw? What factors in her position, upbringing, and character contribute to this flaw and her lack of awareness of it?
2. Female friendships are important to Austen's heroines (as they were to her). How does Emma cope with the "loss" of her friend to marriage? Why does she chose to do that? What other choices might she have? What factors limit her choices?
3. Why does Mr. Knightley think the friendship with Harriet is bad for Emma? Do you agree? Is it good or bad for Harriet?
4. What picture does Austen paint of village life and the people in it? Would you have enjoyed living there? Why or why not?
5. What does the scene where Emma and Harriet read Mr. Martin's letter tell us about the character of the three people? how does Austen show us things without telling us?
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Text of Emma (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/158/158-h/158-h.htm)~~~ Emma review (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/nov/04/100-best-novels-jane-austen-emma) ~~~ Austen related books (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/jun/15/what-matters-in-jane-austen-review)~~~ Jane Austen biography (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/austejn/austen.html)
Discussion Leader:
JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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I refuse to spell anymore of these words (that will stop you from copying, JK!)
I'm deciding - should I read the Sparknotes or Cliffnotes or just wing it? To paraphrase the Introduction in my book I could avoid embarrassment by doing so, but I might miss the "endless enjoyment of Emma's irrepresssible sense of fun."
The fun or embarrassment starts tomorrow. at the moment the weather in London (16 miles from Highbury) is a bit warmer than the midwest of the USA - I think, if I reading it correctly.
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I'm excited to begin tomorrow, and like Mr. Woodhouse, I too am worried about our weather. Expecting yet another 3 - 5 inches of snow, with more to come Tues./Wed. I keep telling myself, "This too shall pass."
I have a basketball game to go to, my granddaughter's 7th grade team is going for the league championship. My son is her coach, and my hubby is the assistant coach. Needless to say our entire family is excited to see the outcome. So, I will check in at some point on our first day with Emma. I can't miss out on the tea and crumpets!
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Ella, I recommend not reading the notes until later. It's more fun to figure out what you think about it yourself. No one is going to be embarrassed--there are all sorts of ways to look at a book, and none of them is wrong.
When JoanK and I were leading the discussion of Women in Greek Drama, I had a lot of trouble with the start of Antigone. It's told in a very roundabout way, full of allusions, use of descriptive words that are only intelligible if you know the history, etc. I HAD to know it solidly, since I was a leader, and it took me two days to puzzle it all out. Then I found the Schmoop notes, very slangy and smart-alecky, but they gave a perfect summary of what I had sweated to figure out. But because I had done it myself, I owned the information in a way I wouldn't have if someone had just told me.
Emma isn't hard like that, especially with JoanK leading us through the outdated word meanings. All we have to do is to trust our instincts, go by our gut feelings, and argue with each other over what is going on.
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I very much enjoy reading Jane Austen and I've seen most of the film adaptations of her books. As PatH said, there is always more to learn from each reading/viewing. I'm a little late but see that we'll be starting the actual discussion of Emma today so I'm happy to join this great group. I look forward to enjoying the book and learning more with you.
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Hi PAT: I do agree with you, WILL NOT - NOT - read anything about the book online. The most difficult discussion I ever led was Dr. Zhivago by Boris Pasternak. Those Russians almost surpass Austen for introducing characters in their books; after the co-leader left me I did a lot of writing, making notes, used up all my ability to remember anything, have never been the same since, haha. It's like taking a mini course in literature.
Someday, MARCIE, I'd like to see the film adaptation - did you agree with it?
Someone (later in the book I'm sure) will confront Emma in all her superior manners, her egotistical intrusion in other lives. Poor Harriet - I hope she turns around and slaps Emma in the face one of these days. I could never do it, but I am sure I would be aware of Emma attempting to influence my life... .. and I think I would be able to tell Emma to stop belittling my boyfriend. How dare she, what does she know of boyfriends, indeed.
I haven't met one character in the book yet that I would enjoy knowing; they all would be fun to observe at the dinner table though, wouldn't they?
I still must read Chapters 6 and 7.
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MARCIE: WELCOME WELCOME! I'm so glad you're joining us, late or early!
BELLAMARIE: you must tell us how the basketball game came out! tears or cheers together!
ELLA: I agree Emma is the least likable of Austen's heroines. But my daughter points out she is the most human. Yes, she thinks selfishly, but if someone put our inner thoughts on paper what would they sound like? Be patient with her.
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I'm intrigued that Austen says Emma is the heroine most like herself. As you read, think about way that Emma might be like Austen.
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I really have to think this story is written from a caged bird who points fingers - A FLAW??!!??
I would say a dichotomy - "been mistress of his house from a very early period" followed in the next paragraph by this gem "Sixteen years had Miss Taylor been..., less as a governess than a friend, very fond of..., but particularly of Emma. Between them it was more the intimacy of sisters."
And since Emma is mistress of the house that would carry not only responsibility but is a powerful position therefore, Miss Taylor may be a friend but not equal to the status and responsibility held by Emma and then we have this that shows such a lack of understanding for the position Emma has been in for years.
"The real evils, indeed," Evil??!!?? Yes, if Emma was not the mistress of the house with all that responsibility that no where does it suggest she was negligent and this household includes a father who cannot pull it together.
Ah so here Jane Austen admits Emma has Power so how does she then act like a powerless second girl child? "Emma's situation were the power of having rather too much her own way," Of course she would be used to getting her own way - she had to get her way with servants, scheduling the household from cleaning to dinner, vendors, shop keepers, holidays, the garden, you name it."
And then we have the back fence gossip that borders to me on jealousy, if not for the power assumed by Emma then for the fact that other second daughters in most other families are not subjected to running the household and can be docile as Jane who probably ran her own household by this time suggests. Jane is probably pandering to the public nay sayers who think girls should not let others know about or see their power, Jane Austin says, "and a disposition to think a little too well of herself;"
I wonder if she was writing this tongue and cheek pandering to an audience that wants to see girls in a certain light and even Jane Austen knows better that they are only disadvantaged because they do not fit the picture the public has of young women when she says, "these were the disadvantages which threatened alloy to her many enjoyments."
Then Jane Austin suggests, "The danger, however, was at present so unperceived, that they did not by any means rank as misfortunes with her." Was that her way of tucking in her own battles with trying to earn money for a family dependent on her and the misfortunes of getting published and the constant work of producing the written word that was as much work hanging over her head since it was a responsibility that she almost rivaled the kitchen help or laundress in long hours of hard work.
I only see the 'flaw' as being on the social mores of society at the time expecting the impossible from this young women who stopped being a girl years before her time - sure we can say if the father had been a strong man but there are many ifs plus we would not have a story - and in light of having a story I will bristle but try to see this story through the eyes of people who want their version of life to be true rather than Emma's reality - does anyone I wonder, ever give her the kudos for carrying off the job of a women with such excellence at such a young age.
This dichotomy hit me like a ton of bricks this time where I too just went along with the crowd which of course affects your own view of what is the proper behavior of a young women and Jane let us know spunky was not to be admired. hmmm
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BARB: "I only see the 'flaw' as being on the social mores of society at the time expecting the impossible from this young women who stopped being a girl years before her time."
That's what's so great about these discussions: different points of view. Austen makes light of Emma's taking on responsibility at an early age, so I admit I did too. What do the rest of you think?
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Most of the other characters like and admire Emma. What do they see in her?
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TO HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS, THE PRINCE REGENT, THIS WORK IS, BY HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS'S PERMISSION, MOST RESPECTFULLY DEDICATED, BY HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS'S DUTIFUL AND OBEDIENT HUMBLE SERVANT, THE AUTHOR.
There's a funny story about this. The Prince Regent was an admirer of Austen's works, and had his librarian write her, suggesting she dedicate her next book to him. Austen didn't want to, as she disapproved of the Prince's dissolute lifestyle, but of course such a request isn't optional, so she did.
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That's a good point of view, PATH. Everyone does admire and like Emma, why? There's a reason that Austen has made her to be such an unlovely person to the reader; I'm not at all sure yet but we are going to find out why eventually and that, I suspect, is the answer. Read on.........
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I did also, BARB and JK. How much responsibility did this young woman have to deal with? She had her beloved Miss Taylor, governess, housekeeper, whatever to help, she had servants to do her bidding, what actually did the young woman do? Methinks as she grew older, she did just what she wanted to do. At the time she was limited by distance, by interaction with others, the era that Austen knew.
She, no doubt, went to parties, on visits, invited others to the house, to dinners, for longer periods.
One phrase somewhere along the way stayed with me: "intelligent solitude" I pondered over that one for a few minutes. Austen is very good with these.
I must learn more about the author as I haven't taken time to do so.
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ELLA: "intelligent solitude". I missed that! That is indeed what women of that class were supposed to be good at: reading improving books, painting, practicing an instrument, embroidering.
EMMA isn't good at this: she gets bored with things and is a people person.
Do you think Austen is talking about herself here?
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Barb implied that Emma didn't get the credit she deserved for running the household at such a young age. Ella pointed out that Emma had lots of help. Both true. Mr. Knightley (another Lancelot? Haha) says Emma is the cleverest in the family but will never submit to anything requiring industry and patience. I think all this has led to arrogance. We've all seen young people full of themselves. Self centered and shallow also come to mind. Appearances are more important than substance "felt an interest in Harriet on account of her beauty". "She would notice her, improve her and make her quite perfect." I wonder how Emma would have fared had she lived in London where she wasn't the big fish in the small pond. Although she has these flaws I don't dislike her character. Yet.
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Ella my thought is she had to manage all those who helped her - keep them working and in good humor like a CEO today - just as today a women in a comfortable economic circumstance does not do the washing, cooking, cleaning, decorating with flowers from the garden etc. but she must oversee those who do the manual work - oversee and plan the house parties etc. I see Emma as a CEO of the estate when other young girls her age were only worrying about which petticoat to wear and what flowers to put in their hair.
She sure was limited wasn't she - I wonder if she was in-line to receive any of the estate ownership or profits after her father dies - there were only the two girls and the older girl married - I wonder how that worked and if she saw her role as preserving her future or was she just maintaining the estate for another member of the family after her father dies.
My thought PatH is that she had a free and independent way about her as well as the ability to gossip, good and bad gossip, so just as today that combo is what makes many a young teen the leader of the girls among her friends or in school.
"intelligent solitude" I need to find that - that is a phrase to ponder isn't it... Need to see how JA uses the phrase.
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Whoops we were writing at the same time Halcyon - I can see what you are saying however, I see most teen girls as self-centered and that can come across as shallow - maybe this story could be considered a coming of age story as Emma learns what in life works and what does not and this story is the hard lesson to learn how she is worthy when she listens and fits into the pattern of life that includes respecting other's choices but then maybe I am getting ahead of the story - for now I see her as a teen carrying out the role of a woman without the maturity of a woman and not being given the acknowledgment for how well she has carried out her role as mistress of the house.
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More about Austen. As you might expect, she was a member of the gentry, a gentlewoman with very little money, and we always know in her books how money influences the characters. She had a few suitors, but nothing worked out. She refused one: another was made by his family to marry someone with more money. Her closest relationship was with her sister, and almost all her heroines have either close sisters or a close female friend. As Barb pointed out, by the end of her life, she was working very hard to support the family with her writing. By then, her books were very popular. Of course, they were published anonymously: a "lady" didn't put her name on books. She died in her forties.
She was far from a feminist or social critic. She pretty much accepted the mores and customs of her day, even while poking fun at them sometimes. But her good heart and quick intelligence also lets her see through them at times. She is the novelist of the small: the everyday life of women of her class with all its pettiness and boredom. But within this small framework she finds all the things that make human experience universal.
What do the rest of you Austen addicts have to say.
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For some reason I did not see Emma's life difficult or stressed whatsoever, regardless of her responsibilities. In the very first lines of the story I got the impression she has a really good, happy life.
"Emma Woodhouse, handsome, clever, and rich, with comfortable home and happy disposition seemed to unite some of the best blessings of existence; and had lived nearly, twenty-one years in the world with very little to distress or vex her. She was the youngest of the two daughters of a most affectionate, indulgent father; and had, in consequence of her sister's marriage, been mistress of this house from a very early period. Her mother had died too long ago for her to have more than an indistinct remembrance of her caresses; and her place had been supplied by an excellent woman as governess, who had fallen little short of a mother in affection."
Is anyone else getting the impression, Mr. Knightly may have a bit of an interest in Emma, all the while she is trying to match make him with Harriet? He sure assumes to know her quite well.
Barb, " This dichotomy hit me like a ton of bricks this time where I too just went along with the crowd which of course affects your own view of what is the proper behavior of a young women and Jane let us know spunky was not to be admired. hmmm"
I am loving these first chapters....they are so the Jane Austen I adore! I have seen in all her books I have read, usually the main female character holds many of Austen's personal traits, or those she would love to have in herself. Yes, Barb, in Austen's books there is a dichotomy, and the main female character, or sister is a bit spunky for the English era. That is what makes it so much fun! I mean we must have one lady, who doesn't follow all the protocol, and expectations of the norm. I really don't try to overthink or over analyze her stories, I just enjoy them. I like most of the characters so far am loving Emma. She has good intentions with Harriet. And an artist, who knew?!
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I see Emma as a CEO of the estate when other young girls her age were only worrying about which petticoat to wear and what flowers to put in their hair.
I think we have to give Emma credit for this. She wouldn't have to do the work, but she would have to make the decisions, how to run things, what to eat, and she would have to keep things harmonious among the large body of servants.
Her governess might well advise her, but would not have had any authority in the matter.
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What about the rest of you? Are you still reading?
why did Emma take Harriet under her wing? For those who haven't read the book, was it a good decision? What else might she have done? Why so few choices?
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I refuse to see any flaws in Emma. I feel only admiration for her. She shows so much concern for the welfare of others. She manages the many moods of her father so well. She knows everyone's place in her social setting. She'll make a grand dowager some day. I wish her well.
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This is probably the first Jane Austen book I have read. (I was more of a Louisa May Alcott fan, and thoroughly enjoyed hers. I think I was an adult before I even heard of Jane Austen.
So, to the book. For sure, I agree with those who say Austen has created a character most of us will dislike. Quite the little manipulator, isn't she. And has anyone mentioned the adjective selfish? Since she has lost her governess and friend to matrimony she now needs another companion/confidante. But at what price to the chosen?
Ah, the poor gentry of 1815. What was there to keep them occupied. Evening games --good, fun. And conversation -- but their world was so small they could only talk about each other.
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why did Emma take Harriet under her wing? For those who haven't read the book, was it a good decision? What else might she have done? Why so few choices?
Emma was bored and looking for a project and along came Harriet, a most suitable companion, easily influenced. Good decision? Good that she had a companion her age. Maybe Emma's meddling was not so good for Harriet. We'll see.
Jonathan, your comment made me laugh out loud.
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PEDLIN, HALCYON: this probably isn't the best Austen book for the first: all her other heroines are easier to relate to (sorry JONATHAN!).Pride and Prejudice" is the most popular. But stick with EMMA.
JONATHAN, I agree that she does care about others. And if she is a little too proud of herself for doing so, who isn't? (I see a lot of myself there). But don't you see anything lacking?
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umm learning but not lacking - she has the courage to try what she thinks is being helpful but then she is young and only sees the world through her eyes expecting her view of the world to be the norm.
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Good point, BARB.
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Jonathan, I am with you. I adore Emma and her spunky personality. And she does not even consider love and marriage for herself.
Emma is real for me. We all would have some of her qualities and flaws, and still be very likable. I don't want a fake, straight lace, yes sir, no sir character. I do like her friendship with Harriet.
I laughed at loud when Harriet is asking for advice on how to reply to Mr. Martin's letter of proposal, and Emma says:
"But what are you in doubt of? You must answer it, of course, and speedily.
"But what shall I say? Dear Miss Woodhouse, do advise me."
"Oh, no, no; the letter had much better be all your own. You will express yourself very properly, I am sure. There is no danger of your not being intelligible, which is the first thing. Your meaning must be unequivocal; no doubts of demurs; and such expressions of gratitude and concern for the pain you are inflicting as propriety requires, will present themselves unbidden to your mind, I am persuaded. You need not be prompted to write with the appearance of sorrow for his disappointment."
"You think I ought to refuse him, then?" said Harriet, looking down.
"Ought to refuse him! My dear Harriet, what do you mean? Are you in an doubt as to that? I thought__ but I beg your pardon, perhaps I have been under a mistake, I certainly have been misunderstanding you, if you feel in doubt as to the purport of your answer. I had imagined you were consulting me only as to the wording of it."
Harriet was silent. With a little reserve of manner, Emma continued.
"You meant to return a favorable answer, I collect?"
"No; I do not, that is, I do not mean__what shall I do? What would you advise me to do? Pray, Miss Woodhouse, tell me what I ought to do."
"I shall not give you any advice, Harriet. I will have nothing to do with it. This is a point which you must settle with your own feelings."
But then of course Emma goes on to pretty much tell Harriet she must refuse Mr. Martin, and once Harriet decides to refuse him, Emma says:
"I kept my feelings to myself, but now that you are so completely decided, I have no hesitation approving."
As important as it is to Harriet, I found humor in how Emma was almost mortified when Harriet seems uncertain as to how she really wants to respond to Mr. Martin.
In all sincerity, Emma was being a true friend to Harriet, even if it seems selfish, because she wants the best for Harriet, and given the times and circumstances, she sees Mr. Martin not suitable for Harriet. We have to keep in mind that many a marriages took place back then with love not necessarily being the primary reason. Social status, the man's career, family and income could trump, love.
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Because Austen doesn't dwell on the role of "mistress of the house" except to indicate that it contributed to Emma's "having her own way," I'm looking at it that way too and not that she was burdened by the details of keeping the house. Her governess didn't have authority but I'm sure was a help to her. Her mother had already hired and trained the staff so it's likely that they knew what to do from day to day.
However, I do think that the early role of mistress of the house, contributed to the responsibility Emma feels for her father and to the way she serves as a perfect hostess to guests in the house... and maybe to her exerting her influence in "meddling" in the lives of friends.
Bellamarie, those passages regarding Emma "keeping her feelings to herself" about the letter from Mr. Martin are very funny. She is manipulative but she does think she has in mind the best interests of her companions.
So far, Emma reminds me of the early Mr. Darcy in Pride and Prejudice. By the end of the book, he acknowledges that he had been arrogant... had been given good principles but left to himself to apply them (or not). He initially looks down on the people at the ball and doesn't see anyone worth dancing with. He interferes in his friend's potential engagement to Jane Bennet for Bingley's "own good." Emma too is proud and willful but both characters (Emma and Darcy) have more to offer than they show in the beginning and they give us hints of the possibility of change.
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Marcie, what a great comparison. I loved, Mr. Darcy, and as much as he resisted, he just could not help himself, from interfering. But, then I won't go any further, so as not to give too much away for our new Austenites, should they decide to read P & P later.
Emma does have a good heart and good intentions, in spite of how she goes about things.
Always look for Austen's humor. If you take her books too seriously, you will pass up some really fun moments. Yes, even the English can be funny.
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I find Austen very funny: her sharp eye to point out all our little foibles. It's uncomfortable at times: I'm not sure I'd want her looking at me with those sharp eyes.
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I sense that Austen is setting us for a change in the reader's perspective of the characters, possibly the arrogance of the Mr. and Miss Woodhouse. It all remains to be seen, but she has made Emma, the heroine of the story, out to be a very domineering, commanding, manipulative personality and then to top it off, Emma is proud of being so, her vanity has no bounds.
Harriet, a possible companion, is caught up in Emma's trap, the story has yet to unfold.
Knightley admires Emma's beauty but is anxious about Emma's future and wonders what will become of her, as do we all at this stage. The story will further unfold.
I think Mr. Martin, the farmer, is well to be rid of the Woodhouses, Emma and Harriet. The latter would have, probably, been a good wife for him but would she have ever been invited to Highbury again?
Not for me, I dated a young man in my youth who was a farmer who loved it all, the 4:00 a.m. milking and other chores, going to bed at sundown; had wonderful parents, his mother having baked 4 pies before breakfast! He became wealthy as he grew older, buying up more land as it came up for sale from dissatisfied young heirs.
I would not have enjoyed living in this era, the Austen era, for all the reasons others have stated above
"Not for the world would I advise you either way. You must be the best judge of your own happiness."
Yes, funny!
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I can't pass one paragraph without lingering. Emma, in discouragaing Harriet's reaction to the letter says: "Oh, yes, .....nobody cares for a letter; the thing is, to be always happy with pleasant companions."
Oh, I want letters back again, I want the wonderful feeling of sliding one out of the mailbox. And having a pleasant cup of coffee while I'm reading a 2-3 page one from my sisters who live out of state.
I'm most like Mr. Woodhouse, who doesn't like change, who has no talents to recommend her.
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JOANK, we should answer your thoughtful questions in the heading. A flaw in Emma's character - vanity, pride. Her beauty, her intellligence, no doubt, contributed to everyone agreeing with and admiring her, spoiling her.
Emma's attitude toward other women are interesting aren't they? She seems to lose interest in women once they are married - her sister, Miss Taylor. But single women, particularly those that can be easily influenced, she pursues attentively. Wtness, Harriet.
Men are a different animal. My opinions to date; I'm sure they will change.
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"Emma's attitude toward other women are interesting aren't they? She seems to lose interest in women once they are married - her sister, Miss Taylor."
Interesting: I hadn't thought of that. Do the rest of you agree?
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Now that (I assume) everyone has read this week's selection, I need some guidance. Are the new "Austenites" up for a longer piece next week? How much longer? Did you find the reading difficult? Slow? Is there anyone who hasn't finished?
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JoanK. I found the reading easy. More would be fine with me. Maybe a couple more chapters. Not so long that we can't remember the beginning to the end.
Interesting observation about Emma dropping women friends after they marry. Doesn't want to share attention with the new husband? Does anyone have an idea how much older Mr. Knightly is than Emma? Why has no one grabbed him up?
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HALCYON: great. Mr. knightly is "36 or 7", Emma is 21.
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Emma is twenty-one years old, and Mr. Knightly is thirty-seven years old.
I don't necessarily see Emma losing interest in the females once they marry, other than the fact they no longer live with her in the estate. They are not too far away, but we all know you can get busy with your marriage and not have as much time for the single girls, just as the single girls will look for other friends/companions to share their single interests with.
JoanK., I found the seven chapters to be short and easy to read, so if you want to add a couple more for the next assigned week, I am okay with that.
Ella, I like your catch on Emma's reaction to the letter. And to add to that, it was surprising to Emma how well the letter was written. She actually wanted to think for a moment his sister may have written it for him, but then admitted to Harriet, it was a very well written letter.
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March/April Book Club Online
Emma
by Jane Austen
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/emma/emmacvr.jpg) | "I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like” Jane Austen of Emma.
Will you like her, the heroine who Austen claimed was most like herself, and who inspired a movie called "Clueless"? If not, there's lots more to like in this classic novel of love, misdirection, and social class.
Schedule March 1-5 Chapters 1-7
March 6 - Chapters 8-17
QUESTIONS CHAPTERS 8 TO 17
1. Mr. Martin is an important character who we never hear speak. We know what he's like only through the opinions of others. Is this technique effective? Why does Austen use it? Do you remember other such Austen characters?
2. Were you able to solve the "riddles"? Was the "charade" an effective courtship device?
3. In Chapter X, Emma gives a spirited defense of "old maids." Would such a defense be needed today?
4. In this section, Austen gives us many examples of ordinary conversation between minor characters. What purposes do these conversations serve? Which was the funniest? What role do Emma and Mr. Knightley play in those conversations?
5. Do any of the minor characters introduced remind you of someone you know? Which? Is Austen's portrayal of ordinary foibles accurate.
6. When did you first realize that things were not going as Emma had planned? Looking back, how does Austen misdirect us? How does she set up the final scene?
7. Does seeing Emma in adversity change your opinion of her? What strengths of character does it reveal?
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Text of Emma (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/158/158-h/158-h.htm)~~~ Emma review (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/nov/04/100-best-novels-jane-austen-emma) ~~~ Austen related books (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/jun/15/what-matters-in-jane-austen-review)~~~ Jane Austen biography (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/austejn/austen.html)
Discussion Leader:
JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Ella, that's a good insight. Emma doesn't have as much interest in married women as single... likely since she has no hope of making a "match" for them or otherwise directing their lives. She seems to want to give her time to people who are potential "projects," in part for their own sake and in part for the gratification of bestowing on them her superior resources (intelligence; society, wealth).
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JoanK, more chapters is fine. I have already read a bit ahead. The reading is easy. I'm just amazed that a woman so young can expect others to bend to her will. I'm looking forward to see if and when she gets her come uppance, as surely she will.
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I think we need something new to think about. Lets move on Friday (March 6) instead of Sunday. Lets read Chapters 8-17. That's 75 pages in my book, but some of them are mainly pictures.
If you don't have time to finish the reading by Friday, just jump in where you are. There's plenty to talk about.
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That sounds fine to me, Joan.
Pedln, Mr. Knightley seems to be the only person in her life right now who sees problems with the role Emma sees for herself as matchmaker and the way she is interacting with Harriet. He's critical of Emma and let's her know it. We also learn in his exchange with Miss Taylor (in Chapter 5) that he thinks that Emma is beautiful and not vain about her looks and is clever, quick and assured. He is worried about Emma's lack of perseverance and lack of concentration on "understanding" rather than "fancy" (by which I think is meant imagination). He says, for example, "The list [of books to read] she drew up when only fourteen -- I remember thinking it did her judgment so much credit, that I preserved it some time; and I dare say she may have made out a very good list now. But I have done with expecting any course of steady reading from Emma. She will never submit to any thing requiring industry and patience, and a subjection of the fancy to the understanding. Where Miss Taylor failed to stimulate, I may safely affirm that Harriet Smith will do nothing. You never could persuade her to read half so much as you wished. You know you could not."
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Marcie, your post makes me realize how helpful Mr. Knightley is in getting to understand Emma. At twice her age he has watched her grow up, with pleasure it seems. Does he have a fatherly interest in her?
How does her father, Mr. Woodhouse, see her? 'Emma never thinks of herself, if she can do good to others.' And the daughter thinks or sees that her father sometimes 'understands but in part'! (haha, I'm wondering myself if I'm getting it all)
Wow! is she clever. Is it any wonder that the author likes her? We seem to agree that Emma is manipulative. But we don't ask ourselves what it is that Emma wants and needs. Bellamarie's quote describing the marriage proposal for Harriet doesn't make Emma out as being so manipulative as a master in the gentle art of persuasion. Brilliant.
About Mr. Knightley, Halcyon asks: 'Why has no one grabbed him up?'
Perhaps he's waiting, subconsciously of course, for Emma's help. Or waiting for her to grow up.
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MARCIE: reading was obviously important to Austen, and we always hear about the reading habits of all her heroines. I love Mr. Knightly's description of Emma's: making reading lists since she was 12. "and very good lists the were too- very well chosen and very neatly arranged-sometimes alphabetically and sometimes by another rule."
I can't help thinking that Austen is talking about herself here. What do you think? The reading lists were doubtless of "improving books" (books of sermons were highly thought of), not the romances that Austen loved.
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" She will never submit to any thing requiring industry and patience, and a subjection of the fancy to the understanding."
Does this seem a fair description of Emma? It's not of Austen who certainly had industry and patience, but did she refuse to submit fancy (imagination) to understanding (intelligence)?
JONATHAN: "But we don't ask ourselves what it is that Emma wants and needs."
Good point. Unlike the usual heroine, she doesn't seem to be looking for a suitor. What do you all think she wants and needs?
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I think she is desperate for appreciation - and probably love if her mother died when she was a child -
Like all of us who loose a parent or caregiver early in our life we have a hole that makes us needy and Emma is going to try to fill that hole by controlling the world around her - probably attempting to control what she could not control when her mother died - and her reading probably offers her a place of control - nothing is going to jump off the pages and bite her plus she can control which books to read, when to stop and when during the day or night to read. Her organized list show us that she likes organization - and that is often an earmark of someone who needs to control the circumstances around her.
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Good point, BARB. Do others agree?
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I haven't read further yet but it gets more intriguing I'm sure.
What does Emma want or need?
Barbara said appreciation and love, - she did have those qualities from Miss Taylor didn't she? Perhaps she is looking for someone similar, but is Harriet a standin for the former governess. I doubt that.
I must read on. I have a strong suspicion that eventually Mr. Knightley will figure in her life and perhaps he is the one that will give her, as Pedlin stated the "come uppance" she needs
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I've been thinking about Emma being manipulative or, as Jonathan says, a master at the gentle art of persuasion and I wonder what her motive is?
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HALCYON: what is Emma's motive? Good question. Is it purely Harriet's welfare? What's in it for Emma? What do you all think?
I'm beginning to see Emma in a different way than I had in earlier readings. Emma is clever, but not studious. She gets bored easily. She is really constrained by her role as a woman. The traditional "lady of leisure" occupations don't hold her interest. She's a people person, but she's constrained by her father's limitations to a very narrow circle of people: people that she's known forever and aren't very interesting. As a woman, she has limited means to widen that circle. She has to wait and hope interesting people show up. (Or try to somehow mold and imagine Harriet into the person she wants for her friend).
Does that sound like it might be what Austen sees of herself in Emma?
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Could be that JA's reduced economic circumstances was the same influence that did not enable her to widen her circle of acquaintances and those feelings of being boxed in was translated to Emma, but rather than reduced financial circumstances there is instead, the father who - just hit me he also controls his world with his cry of illness and weakness boxing his life into a small slice of life and geography - hmm he controls Emma keeping her close to his beck and call, as Emma then tries to control her world and acquaintances as you say, trying to make them over into Emma's idea of a friend, a successful woman etc.
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Don't forget, we're starting the new section tomorrow: Chapter 8-17.If you haven't quite finished it, jump in anyway.
I might be a little late with my discussion questions. My mind is a blank.
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I am anxious to read the next chapters, but before I do I went back and was re-reading the first ones. Something jumped out at me that I didn't quite see the first time reading.
Mr. Knightly as we know is 37 yrs. old, and Emma is 21 yrs. old. Even though he has been a long time family friend, and visits often, he takes liberty to constantly question and criticize Emma. Seems he is the only one who wants to challenge her to what he sees as flaws. Although, I did notice when he does this, he does it in a bit of a flirty, comical way with her, and she can't resist engaging with him.
Pg. 367 (Mr. Knightly has come to ask how the wedding went, and see how Emma and Mr. Woodhouse is fairing without Miss Taylor.)
"By the bye, I have not wished you joy. Being pretty well aware of what sort of joy you must both be feeling, I have been in no hurry with my congratulations; but I hope it all went off tolerably well. How did you all behave? Who cried most?"
"Ah! poor Miss Taylor! 'tis a sad business."
"Poor Mr. and Miss Woodhouse, if you please; but I cannot possibly say 'poor Miss Taylor.' I have a great regard for you and Emma; but when it comes to the question of dependence or independence! at any rate, it must be better to have only one to please than two."
"Especially when one of those two is such a fanciful, troublesome creature!" said Emma playfully. "That is what you have in your head, I know_and what you would certainly say if my father were not by."
"I believe it is very true, my dear, indeed," said Mr. Woodhouse, with a sigh. "I am afraid I am sometimes very fanciful and troublesome."
"My dearest papa! You do not think I could mean you, or suppose Mr. Knightly to mean you. What a horrible idea! Oh, no! I meant only myself. Mr. Knightly love to find fault with me, you know-in a joke. We always say what we like to one another."
Mr. Knightly, in fact, was one of the few people who could see faults in Emma Woodhouse, and the only one who ever told her of them; and though this was not particularly agreeable to Emma herself, she knew it would be so much less so to her father, that she would not have him really suspect such a circumstance as her not being thought perfect by everybody.
"Emma knows I never flatter her," said Mr. Knightly, "but I meant no reflection on anybody. Miss Taylor has been used to have two person to please; she will now have but one. The chances are that she must be a gainer."
"Well," said Emma willing to let it pass, "you want to hear about the wedding; and I shall be happy to tell you, for we all behaved charmingly. Everybody was punctual, everybody in their best looks: not a tear, and hardly a long face to be seen. Oh, no; we all felt that we were going to be only half a mile apart, and were sure of meeting every day."
"Dear Emma bears everything so well," said her father. "But Mr. Knightly, she is really very sorry to lose poor Miss Taylor, and I am sure she will miss her more than she thinks for."
Emma turned away her head, divided between tears and smiles.
The tears for papa's sake, and the smiles, I am sure because her father has put Mr. Knightly in his place. :D
Then they go on about how Emma wants to take credit for making the match in the first place, and Mr. Knightly is letting her know he thinks she is taking way too much credit for it. Again, he is putting her in her place, not allowing her to think too highly of herself. I was finding myself laughing at their banter back and forth. He sure does know how to get her goat.
Even though the age difference, it will surprise me if the two of them do not end up together. This for me, is the perfect storm! Who else would be able to handle her? :o ::) ;)
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The Perfect Storm! Well done, Bellamarie. That's really calling it. And the end of your quote from the book provides a great revelation. There are both tears and smiles in Emma's makeup.
And I was just puzzling over Joan's question: Does Austen see herself in Emma? Perhaps so, and isn't she surprised by what she finds. I seem to sense a conflict in the narrative, almost like a struggle between author and character. This is going to be a great matchup.
I believe Harriet is another clever one. Not as simple as Emma believes her to be. She has certainly turned Emma's head with her seeming innocence.
Pass the gruel please. Isn't it fun having dinner with Mr. Woodhouse.
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OMG! Where is the "like" button and the lololol? Jonathan, I see the struggle between the author and character as well. Austen, loves her heroine spunky, and always the man challenging, hence Emma and Mr. Knightley. Emma is likeable and unlikeable at the same time. She is our little chameleon, I say this with endearment. giggle, giggle
No, sweet little Harriet, I expect will not allow her feelings for Mr. Martin to be dismissed so easily.
Speaking of dinners with Mr. Woodhouse, I have to mention this as I was re-reading.
pg. 372 "Mr. Woodhouse was fond of society in his own way. He liked very much to have his friends come and see him; and from various united causes, from his long residence at Hartfield, and his good-nature, from his fortune, his house, and his daughter, he could command the visits of his own little circle, in a great measure as he liked. He had not much intercourse with any families beyond that circle; his horror of late hours, and large dinner-parties, made him unfit for any acquaintance but such as would visit him on his own terms. Fortunately for him, Highbury, including Randalls in the same parish, and Donwell Abbey in the parish adjoining, the seat of Mr. Knightley, comprehended many such. Not unfrequently, through Emma's persuasion, he had some of the chosen and the best to dine with him;"
Well, now who do you think Emma gets her personality from? As Mr. Knightley would describe her, such is her father, a bit high and mighty!
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A struggle between author and character, I love it! You're right, I'm sure.
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I believe Harriet is another clever one. Not as simple as Emma believes her to be. She has certainly turned Emma's head with her seeming innocence.
We'll have to watch for that, Jonathan. Right now, to me, it seems she is mostly being pleasant and agreeing with what Emma says.
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Those who have seen Gone With the Wind, I ask you, does Emma and Mr. Knightley remind you a little of Scarlett and Rhett? He too was much older than her. Love has no age barrier.
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The perfect storm. Perfect! It reminds me of A Midsummer Night's Dream, all those confused lovers.
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Glad you like it, HALCYON. how about the rest of you? (The questions are up, if anyone's interested).
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An interesting thought, BELLE, about Scharlett and Rhett. Many years have passed since I saw the movie, never did read the book, but there are similarities. I think Scarlett, however, was very different in ways that Emma is not; she was very tempestuous, quick to anger, passionately lin love with the wrong man. Emma declares she will never be married, she has never been in love, it is not her way or her nature and she doesn't anticipate it will change.
Pray Emma never loses her good fortune in life for "a very narrow income has a tendency to contract the mind and sour the temper. Those who can barely live, and live perforce in a very small, and generally very inferior society may well be illiberal and cross"
I forget and have to click around and read Jane Austen's bio again to understand her stature in life.. I remember she never married and was very close to her father. Oh, the poor memory....
It's a good book; however to be a bit critical, isn't it all such an old story?
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I just noticed your questions, JOAN.
Of course, the book revolves around the techniques applied by the author and Mr. Martin is an excellent example. I think we know him very well; I should say, we know OF HIM from the opinions of the others. I like him and if I could give him advice I would tell him to stay away from this bunch, hahaha They are not of your class, you will never understand their ways, their gossip, their lack of character (at this point of the story), go enjoy the good llife - nature with all its wonders.
Was it MARCIE who earlier said these people are very bored and all they have to do is gossip about each other? Was this true of Austen? Or is this our Americanism showing, our lack of class, our value of hard work. Every time I go to a library in a small city, or large, I see a Carnegie Library - do you know how that came to be? Do we read of these heroes, do our children?
Sorry about that, it comes off my fingers, I am not responsible!
On the edge of my mind the name of an author is lingering who wrote of America's early achievers but in a fictional style. Can we say that Austen writes of the people she knew, the era she lived in? Is any of this historical in any way, other than carriages shey rode in, etc.
I am not an Austen reader; therefore writing out of ignorance, I must say.
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I can hear you Ella it all appears to be no more than a tempest in a tea pot does it especially in comparison to the social issues of today but then that may be the appeal - simple dichotomies that are like reading period fantasy like walking in a garden we know the world won't come crashing down.
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This was included in an email to me today and I thought of Jane Austen but also her Emma whose circumstances may not have been the limitation of money as Jane Austen but a limitation of opportunity also Emma lived in a small community limiting her access to the outside world.
"The key to abundance is meeting limited circumstances with unlimited thoughts." - Marianne Williamson
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This was included in an email to me today and I thought of Jane Austen but also her Emma whose circumstances may not have been the limitation of money as Jane Austen but a limitation of opportunity also Emma lived in a small community limiting her access to the outside world.
"The key to abundance is meeting limited circumstances with unlimited thoughts." - Marianne Williamson
That's an important point, Barb. Emma's world is mostly limited by the distance she can walk. Her social opportunities would be much greater if she could spend time in London, as many people of her class did. The Woodhouses could easily afford this, and they have a coach and horses to make the trip easy, plus they could stay with Isabella and John, but Emma's father, who is fussed by a drive of a mile or so, is unwilling to attempt this, and Emma would be unwilling to abandon him to go alone.
Mr. Knightly is somewhat constrained too. He is perfectly willing and able to go elsewhere on business, but he is too busy with local affairs to stay away any length of time, so his choice of wife is limited to the local gentlefolk. This may be one reason he hasn't yet married.
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(http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/assets/img/posters/anatomy-of-a-firework-in.jpg)
I have just finished reading chapter 8 and WOW! The fireworks were certainly flying through Emma and Mr. Knightley. I found myself laughing, cheering, and getting a bit upset with Mr. Knightley's assessment of Harriet, and women in general. Good for Emma for standing up to him and showing him a woman is more than just a pretty face, to be draped on the arm of a man.
pg. 393 " You are a very good friend to Mr. Martin; but, as I said before, are unjust to Harriet. Harriet's claims to marry well are not so contemptible as you represent them. She is not a clever girl, but she has better sense than you are aware of, and does not deserve to have her understanding spoken of so slightingly. Waiving that point, however, and supposing her to be, as you describe her, only pretty and good-natured, let me tell you, that in the degree she possesses them, they are not trivial recommendations to the world in general, for she is, in fact, a beautiful girl, and must be thought so by ninety-nine people out of a hundred; and till it appears that men are much more philosophic on the subject of beauty than they are generally supposed, till they do fall in love with well-informed minds instead of handsome faces, a girl, with such loveliness as Harriet, has a certainty of being admired and sought after, of having the power of choosing from among many, consequently a claim to be nice. Her good nature, too, is not so very slight a claim, comprehending, as it does, real, thorough sweetness of temper, and manner, a very humble opinion of herself, and a great readiness to be pleased with other people. I am very much mistaken if your sex in general would not think such beauty, and such temper, the highest claims a woman could possess."
"Upon my word, Emma, to hear you abusing the reason you have, is almost enough to make me think so too. Better be without sense than misapply it as you do."
"To be sure," cried she, playfully. "I know that is the feeling of you all. I know that such a girl as Harriet is exactly what every man delights in-what at once bewitches his senses and satisfies his judgement. Oh Harriet may pick and choose. Were you, yourself, ever to marry, she is the very woman for you. And is she, at seventeen, just entering into life, just beginning to be known, to be wondered at because she does not accept the first offer she receives? No__pray let her have time to look about her."
I feel like I am seeing Emma through different eyes than everyone else. I don't believe for one minute she sincerely felt she wanted to keep Harriet all to herself when she and Mr. Knightley were arguing about what, and who, is best for Harriet.
"I am very much obliged to you," said Emma, laughing again. "If I had set my heart on Mr. Elton's marrying Harriet, it would have been very kind to open my eyes; but at present I only want to keep Harriet to myself. I have done with matchmaking, indeed. I could never hope to equal my own doings at Randalls. I shall leave off while I am well,"
These two have two very different ideas of love, marriage and what is best for Harriet, or for women and men in general. Yet, while arguing with each other I felt they were making stands on what they individually are demanding for themselves.
"We think so differently on this point, Mr. Knightley, that there can be no use in canvassing it. We shall only be making each other more angry."
For me, I think William Shakespeare's quote from the 1602 play Hamlet fits here, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"
Although I think the lady, Emma, and the gentleman, Mr. Knightley, protest too much!
As an Austen lover, I have to tell you, this is a love story as all hers are. She gives us many characters to keep us busy, yet in the end it is about the two main characters who are fighting love, and finding their way to love, in the end. I have not read ahead, I do not claim to know the ending. I tend to see Austen of her era, as our Danielle Steele of today. The weekly series of Downton Abbey is a great replica of Austen's novels. They were meant to entertain, amuse and enjoy! IMO I am a hopeless romantic, so I am sitting back and relishing the spitfire in Emma. She is a woman of depth, she knows her mind, (even if she does not yet know her heart,) and even though a woman in her time did not express her intellect much, she is not going to allow Mr. Knightley to ignore the fact women are more than a mere object to admire and look at.
Emma has shown Harriet, you can choose, you can want more, you can refuse, and not think the first man who proposes to you, you must accept. Seventeen is young, Harriet is just becoming into her womanhood. Even "if" Harriet and Mr. Martin do end up together, or she ends up with Mr. Elton, which Mr. Knightley professes is the wrong man for her, at least Emma is teaching her that her worth is much more than mere beauty, which can fade. Jane Austen was a woman ahead of the times, in writing the feelings Emma is expressing in her argument with Mr. Knightley. I would want to give my daughter the same advice. Don't be haste, take your time, and know you are worth more than just a pretty face.
(Although....shhhhhh....in the back of my head, I fear Emma may see a Harriet she does not like, rise up.) I'm sensing some hurt in the future.
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BELLAMARIE:I love your fireworks!
" till it appears that men are much more philosophic on the subject of beauty than they are generally supposed, till they do fall in love with well-informed minds instead of handsome faces, ..."
Indeed!
BARB: yes, Austen is the author of the small personal triumphs and tragedies. The world around her enters only as opportunities for the men who go out and come back from it. Her brothers were in the navy: and in another book (Persuasion) the navy is prominent but only as a way to make a fortune. (She lived during what we call he war of 1812, and the fortune was made in part by hijacking American ships, but there is no clue of that in Austen).
She is very historic in that she gives us an incredibly detailed picture of what life was actually like for a woman of her "station" at that time. It's narrow because those lives WERE narrow.
I admit when I first read Austen as a young girl, she gave me claustrophobia with that narrow focus. But the older I get, the more I appreciate her -- after all, the everyday she writes of is what most of our lives consist of. And what riches she finds in her small plot of land!
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I'm not sure what to make of the "riddles" - a book of ____________? The head teacher knew, she had written 300 of them. Mr. Woodhouse came up with a frozen maid named Kitty.
However, Emma knows that the CHARADE, somehow or other spelled out "courtship" and was meant for Harriet from Mr. Elton. Emma makes up her mind at the same time that she deceives it.
Apparently Emma (Austen?) is not enamored of reading for pleasure, as is most of us here. It is much easier for Emma to chat than to study, much easier to keep her mind busy with arrangements for others; particularly marriage arrangements.
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Austen LOVED reading -- novels that is. I'm surprised to see her with a heroine who "means to read more" but never does, but I suspect she's talking about the "improving books" that young ladies were supposed to read (books of sermons etc). If the gothic romances that Austen loved had come her way, I'll bet she would have gobbled them up!
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Your question about Mr. Martin....we know about him through the eyes of Emma and Mr. Knightly who have very different views and, of course, Harriet's view. Emma is only looking at the class issue while Mr. Knightly is looking at Mr. Martin's character. Harriet seems to see the whole picture, his work ethic, kindness to his mother and sisters and his playfulness. There's more to Harriiet than meets the eye. What if Emma were to fall in love with Mr. Martin? Wouldn't that be a hoot? I just realized that Emma judges Mr. Martin by his looks while she complains that men should look beyond beauty!
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It's a good book; however to be a bit critical, isn't it all such an old story?
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Ella, I agree. I haven't read a story like this in ages. I'm not a romantic so I'm finding all the disfunctions of the characters and the times very amusing. Group therapy would work wonders for this crew.
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Charade -- how different from our "acting out" game. These with the printed words are really quite clever, I must applaud Mr. Elton (or was it the work of his friend.) Courtship has been explained, but "Kitty, a fair but frozen maid" is lost to me.
And gruel -- a tasty little discussion there. My first thought was Oliver T -- "please sir, I want some more." I'll stand with the Knightley brothers. Ugh. Cooked cereal, the bane of my childhood. I was forced to eat it for breakfast until I was twelve. Then my mother would pay me 5 cents for every bowl I ate.
Poor Emma. Does she have a cross to bear or should we say, "She manages her father just fine." It seems both she and Mr. George Knightley work nimbly to keep the idle conversations smooth and without rancor.
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I'm having a problem posting my replies. I have to hit the post button several times.
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Neither am I, HALCYON, a romantic. That's, no doubt, why I am having trouble reading it, perhaps I should try the Cliff Notes. But I decided not to, for some stupid reason.
JOANK about Emma/Jane 's love of reading I quote this from Chapter IX:
"Her (Emma) views of improving her little friend's mind, by a great deal of useful reading and conversation, had never yet led to more than a few first chapters, and the intention of going on tomorrow. It was much easier to chat than to study......." Perhaps, "useful reading" is not the same as a novel; what kind of reading do you suppose is imagined here?
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Ella,
"Emma knows that the CHARADE, somehow or other spelled out "courtship" and was meant for Harriet from Mr. Elton. Emma makes up her mind at the same time that she deceives it. "
I ask, who is deceiving whom, with this charade? Emma, Mr. Elton, or Harriet?
(Did I use my correct grammar on my who, and whom? Never could get it right in English class. ::))
"O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive!" by Walter Scott
There is no doubt in my mind Mr. Elton has wrote this poem for Emma. Yet, he knows full well that Emma will indeed believe it is for Harriet. Mr. Knightley, was trying to warn Emma of Mr. Elton's character flaws. We see where on pg. 395, Miss Nash is telling Harriet, about Mr. Perry telling her, of Mr. Elton leaving for London.
"and he told Miss Nash that as he was coming back yesterday, from Clayton Park he had met Mr. Elton, and found, to his great surprise, that Mr. Elton was actually on his road to London, and not meaning to return till the morrow, though it was the whist club night, which he had been never known to miss before; and Mr. Perry had remonstrated with him about it, and told him how shabby it was in him, their best player, to absent himself, and tried very much to persuade him to put off his journey only one day; but it would not do; Mr. Elton had been determined to go on, and had said, in a very particular way indeed, that he was going on business which he would not put off for any inducement in the world; and something about a very enviable commision, and being the bearer of something exceedingly precious. Mr. Perry could not quite understand him, but he was very sure there must be a lady in the case, and he told him so; and Mr. Elton only looked very conscious and smiling, and rode off in great spirits, Miss Nash had told her all this, and had talked a great deal more about Mr. Elton; and said, looking so very significantly at her, "that she did not pretend to understand what his business might be, but she only knew that any woman whom Mr. Elton could prefer, she should think the luckiest woman in the world; for beyond a doubt, Mr. Elton had not his equal for beauty or agreeableness."
So, Harriet has been warned of Mr. Elton, possibly having something to do with a lady. Emma has been warned by Mr. Knightley, that Mr. Elton has character flaws. Mr. Elton is well aware Emma is trying to matchmake him with Harriet. What a tangled web we have indeed!
What might this mean? ??? "enviable commision, and being the bearer of something exceedingly precious"
My eyes are tiring, so I suppose I will have to go to bed before beginning chapter 10. Can't wait to see where this is all leading up to.
Don't forget to Spring forward...........set your clocks ahead one hour. That means I lose one hour of sleep! Ughhh...
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In thinking over what I just typed, I hasten to add that a character in a novel is not always reflective of the author; however, it seems to be more so in this book. Isn't that part of the charm of it? Or is it the display of the time in which they lived, how they lived? Or is it because the author was a woman in an era where only men were published.
Wherein lies the fame of the book?
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I tend to think every author writes a story with a little bit of themselves in one of their characters. With Austen, I see it has much to do with the era. Many women in her novels can portray her, since many women lived similar lives back then. Where I think Austen makes the difference, is making her heroine a bit more outspoken, and independent. That is where I think Austen had fun in her writing. I am an amateur author, and I can see Jane Austen laughing and smiling, as she writes these pages of Emma, especially the sparring between Emma and Mr. Knightley.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
March/April Book Club Online
Emma
by Jane Austen
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/emma/emmacvr.jpg) | "I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like” Jane Austen of Emma.
Will you like her, the heroine who Austen claimed was most like herself, and who inspired a movie called "Clueless"? If not, there's lots more to like in this classic novel of love, misdirection, and social class.
Schedule March 1-5 Chapters 1-7
March 6 - Chapters 8-17
QUESTIONS CHAPTERS 8 TO 17
1. Mr. Martin is an important character who we never hear speak. We know what he's like only through the opinions of others. Is this technique effective? Why does Austen use it? Do you remember other such Austen characters?
2. Were you able to solve the "riddles"? Was the "charade" an effective courtship device?
3. In Chapter X, Emma gives a spirited defense of "old maids." Would such a defense be needed today?
4. In this section, Austen gives us many examples of ordinary conversation between minor characters. What purposes do these conversations serve? Which was the funniest? What role do Emma and Mr. Knightley play in those conversations?
5. Do any of the minor characters introduced remind you of someone you know? Which? Is Austen's portrayal of ordinary foibles accurate.
6. When did you first realize that things were not going as Emma had planned? Looking back, how does Austen misdirect us? How does she set up the final scene?
7. Does seeing Emma in adversity change your opinion of her? What strengths of character does it reveal?
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Text of Emma (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/158/158-h/158-h.htm)~~~ Emma review (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/nov/04/100-best-novels-jane-austen-emma) ~~~ Austen related books (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/jun/15/what-matters-in-jane-austen-review)~~~ Jane Austen biography (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/austejn/austen.html)
Discussion Leader:
JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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I think part of the charm of books written by Jane Austen is she is similar in her subject to Marcel Proust and his Remembrances of Things Past.
I'm thinking of authors today - so few are confined to a small piece of real estate as Jane was with only mail for outside communication - I wonder if that is why there are so many stories about an author's inner life or a character who is sorting or discovering their inner life - about the only place in today's world were the walls of containment capture a time and place.
Come to think on it that movie last year, forgot the name. with Robert Redford sailing alone and his boat is damaged till he finally has to abandon it for a dinghy and bit by bit he, and we, are made aware that all his ways of communicating with the outside world cannot be accessed. The difference with this story of Emma is there is a cast of characters encased in this bottle with her.
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ELLA: at the time, novels were looked down on (Austen hotly defe3nds them in some of her stories. reading collections of sermons, or of advise to young people were recommended. (For me, that's the equivalent of eating gruel. I suspect Austen, like Emma, found that a little of that went a long way.
Yes, the riddles are like our charades. No wonder you didn't get the "fair and frozen maid." my sources give the whole thing. It's many verses long, and even with the answer in front of me (chimney sweep) I didn't get it. It was written by Garrick, the actor/playwright, and I assume was so well enough known at the time, that Austen would expect her readers to smile and think "Oh, that old thing!"
The same is true for the first short riddle that Elton submits. (Did you get it? The answer is woman). Presumably, Austen wants you to see Mr. Woodhouse and Elton as dull and unoriginal. (Which makes me wonder if Elton is really supposed to have made up the courtship one. That is apparently original to Austen).
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ELLA: we were posting at the same time. That's an interesting idea.
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I do like how Emma expresses to Harriet how she has no desire to marry. She seems perfectly happy and contented in her life at this time. She has a nice home, good finances, a doting father, and no intention to be employed now or in her future. Harriet, does not seem to comprehend this, because Harriet comes from an entirely different life, and Harriet needs to find a man to marry in order to secure her future.
pg. 404 Emma, "I have none of the usual inducements of women to marry. Were I to fall in love, indeed, it would be a different thing; but I never have been in love; it is not my way, or my nature; and I do not think I ever shall. And, without love, I am sure I should be a foot to change such a situation as mine. Fortune I do not want; employment I do not want; consequence I do not want; I believe few married women are half as much mistress of their husband's house as I am of Hartfield; and never, never could I expect to be so truly beloved and important; so always first and always right in any man's eyes as I am in my father's"
Emma seems satisfied to not have children of her own, saying nieces and nephews will suffice. So, I must ask this question...
What will Emma do if and when her father dies?
He can not live forever, and then her reality would sink in as far as no companionship, no one to praise her, no one for her to care for. I like how Emma refuses to marry for convenience, like most women, she has the liberty to choose this, unlike most women. I like how she will not marry unless, and if she were to fall in love. I see her at the age of twenty-one, still very young, she does not see herself finding any man that would be superior to her, and think of her as her father does. What we think we know one day can easily change without notice. I can't wait to see if and when Emma does fall in love, if indeed it will be our Mr. Knightley. Someone mentioned Mr. Martin, now that would be a stretch for me, and Emma.
Okay on to chapter 10. I am finding I am not reading as fast as I did the first chapters. There is a lot to take in, and give pause to in these chapters this week. And a new character Jane Fairfax!
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There is another new character in the wings waiting til next week to come on. Who is this frank Churchill we hear about but never see?
How are the rest of you doing?
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I finished the reading and am anxiously awaiting the arrival of Mr. Churchill. I thought the riddles impossible. I think one would have to live in that era to get them. As far as misdirection....the portrait and that whole business of rushing off to to London to have the picture framed. Poor Mr. Elton. As far as "old maids" of today, is that phrase even used? It is not unusual for today's women to pursue a career instead of marrying and to even have children without marrying. Probably simplifies life for some.
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I'm reading your posts with the greatest interest. I may have to change my mind about Emma. Perhaps the book is one great charade. There certainly is much to puzzle over.
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No, we haven't seen Mr. Churchill yet in person, but others have been talking about him partiularly the lovely letter he sent MRs. Weston. And it seems there is some speculation about whether he will be able to come or not. Some impossible woman? Would that be his grandmother? I don't always remember a details from my readings, but did Mr. Weston give up the raising of Frank to his deceased wife's parents, the Churchills?
My speculations are that there will be three men after Emma --- Mr. Elton, Frank Churchill, and George Knightley. I'm about at Chpt. 14 or 15.
I was surprised reading in this section to find Mr. John Knightley fussing so much about going out in the snow. He sounded just like MR. Woodhouse.
And . . . . haven't met her yet in person, but is this Jane Fairfax going to play some part. Am I getting the feeling that Emma doesn't care for her?
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Jane Fairfax will definitely play a part. And yes, Emma doesn't care for her. Can you guess why?
john Knightly definitely reminds me of someone I know. the complete grouchpot! And his wife, sailing along oblivious. No wonder Emma finds him trying!
Have you gotten to the "war of the apothecaries" between Mr. Woodhouse and Isabel yet?
Austen certainly has a sharp eye for the silliness of much of our ordinary conversation, doesn't she? Do we sound that silly when we talk?
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OMG! I have just finished chapter 16 and my head is spinning!!!!
Where to begin? First off I do want to point out how Emma is a caring and compassionate person. pg. 405
"They are now approaching the cottage, and all ilde topics were suspended. Emma was very compassionate; and the distress of the poor was as sure of relief from her personal attention and kindness, her counsel, and her patience, as from her purse. She understood their ways, could allow for their ignorance and their temptations, had no romantic expectations of extraordinary virtue from those for whom education had done so little, entered into their troubles with ready sympathy, and always gave her assistance with as much intelligence as good-will. In the present instance, it was sickness and poverty together which she came to visit; and after remaining there as long as she could give comfort or advice, she quitted the cottage with such an impression of the scene as made her say to Harriet, as they walked away: "These are the sights, Harriet, to do one good. How trifling they make everything else appear! I feel now as if I could think of nothing but these poor creatures all the rest of the day; and yet who can say how soon it may all vanish from my mind?" "Ah, Harriet, here comes sudden trial of our stability in good thoughts. Well" (smiling), "I hope it may be allowed that if compassion has produced exertion and relief to the sufferers, it has done all that is truly important. If we feel for the wretched enough to do all we can for them, the rest is empty sympathy, only distressing to ourselves."
What ever else may cause some to criticize Emma, and not like her, I feel she is more than a shallow, match maker.
So now Isabella, her husband Mr. John Knightley, and their five children, are coming to Hatfield for a visit.
JoanK., Have you gotten to the "war of the apothecaries" between Mr. Woodhouse and Isabel yet?
I had to laugh at the fact Isabella is so much like her father with her insecurities of her health, and stands firm with him when they have this little war of words, on which doctor is correct in taking their children to the open air at the sea. My take on the entire conversation was, Mr. Woodhouse was upset Isabella preferred taking her family to the sea, rather than come to visit Hartfield. He is using the doctors, sea, air, health, etc., to deflect his hurt feelings in her choice.
I have a daughter who lives in Florida, and has visited her husband's family in Georgia much more, than coming to Ohio to visit her family. Even though her argument is much like Isabella's, it's a shorter distance, and less expensive, I still can't help but feel like Mr. Woodhouse, wanting them to come visit us.
So much is happening in these chapters, I feel like I can't read fast enough, yet I am trying not to read so fast I miss things.
Seems, Mr. John Knightley has a disliking for Mr. Weston, and yet he is very insightful about Mr. Elton's feelings for Emma. I don't want to jump too far ahead, because again I may need some more pictures of fireworks! We now know the first name of the other Knightley brother is George. He has come to visit his brother, Isabella and the children, and he and Emma have called a truce. Phew...thank goodness that is resolved for now.
Jonathan, " I may have to change my mind about Emma.
Oh no, you mustn desert your first impressions of Emma. I am up to chapter 17, and she so far for me has remained a really good friend to Harriet, in spite of her lack of insight into Mr. Elton's Charade, and I use that word literally. She had no idea what his intentions were. She had Harriet's best interest at heart. Emma is a kind, and caring person, who gets a bit caught up in her attempts to help others. She at this point has not been intentionally malicious to anyone. If anything, I think she has come to realize, men know men, on a level she is not capable of knowing them, and realizes how she was deceived by Mr. Elton, and realizes the harm that has been done in her matchmaking. She is torn apart having to tell Harriet what the reality of things are. But, don't forget, Harriet was interested in Mr. Martin, so for her at least all could still work out for the best. A blessing in disguise.
As for how many men may be interested in Emma, that remains to be seen. But, it seems, Emma is considering taking never marrying off the table, since Mr. Frank Churchill's name has come to light, and he is coming for a visit. Oh, I can just see Mr. George Knightley not liking this one bit. It may be time to declare his real feelings for Emma, before Frank Churchill grabs her up. That is of course, assuming he will be at all interested in Emma. Where does Miss Fairfax fit into all of this? Hmmm.....I sense a web is being spun.
I don't feel the story is so much a "charade", as it is an entangled web, to be sorted out. Oh the fun it will be!!!
On to the last two chapters.
Ciao for now~
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I had no idea what the heck "gruel" was. Had to Google it..... gruel, "a thin food made by boiling oatmeal or some other grain in water or milk. A thin porridge."
So it seems everyone enjoys, or doesn't necessarily enjoy, eating porridge before bedtime. Right?
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JONATHAN: you see from BELLAMARIE's post, EMMA really is a good person. She just needs some seasoning.
Our two hypochondriacs are funny. In their defense, though, getting ill was much more serious then in the days before antibiotics. People did die young then of illnesses we would just throw off. And doctors, with their habit of "bleeding" people, just made things worse.
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We have plenty of time. has anyone read the scene in the carriage yet? Without giving it away, were you surprised? How does Austen set us up for it? Does the way she handles the aftermath increase your good opinion of her?
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'We have plenty of time.' - Joan
And I need plenty of time. I had no idea what I was getting into with this book. I'm impressed. Finally an author who knows how to work with the details. Without sweat on her part, but much for her characters. The carriage scene certainly gets stormy. Just Emma's self-control raises her in my estimation. But she meddles too much in other peoples' lives.
Emma's experience also teaches me that there is no romance in matchmaking. She is no romantic herself, and yet, with her matchmaking she seems to be playing with fire. Let us hope she doesn't burn the house down.
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I was surprised at how presumptuous someone was in the carriage scene. I wonder if that behavior was the norm.
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The carriage scene was so unexpected. Emma, had to think Mr. Elton had a bit too much to drink, to act as he did. I think she conducted herself quite well, with everything to deal with. She tried with all her might to give him the benefit of the doubt, considering other than Mr. John Knightley forewarning, she never saw it coming.
We have to remember, Emma has never been in love. She has had no suitors, this is all new to her. She thinks matchmaking is something you can easily will to happen, between two people. She is learning from this. Yes, Jonathan, let's hope she does not burn the house down, and everyone in it! :o :o
I need to go finish chapter 17 & 18 to see how Harriet takes all this.
Ciao for now~
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Question #6.
When did you first realize that things were not going as Emma had planned? Looking back, how does Austen misdirect us?
I sensed Mr. Elton had other motives, back when Mr. Knightley tried to warm Emma. Mr. Knightley, may criticize and spar with Emma, but from day one, I have felt he truly has her best interest at heart, and of course I think he is in love with her, although he may not even be aware of it just yet.
I feel Austen misdirects us with the painting. I was a bit stumped, as to why Mr. Elton was taking so much interest in Harriet's portrait, to the point of marveling, and traveling to London to have it framed.
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You have to wonder if Julian Fellows borrowed Mr. Elston for Cora to be taken in - the Downton Abbey Cora...
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Barb, not sure what you are referring to. I have not finished watching the new season. It's still waiting on my dvr to see.
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BARB: that's a good question. BELLAMARIE: you'll find out what she means.
Who else was completely surprised? I was the first time I read it. But if you look back at the scenes with Elton, Emma and Harriet together, it's all there. Mr. Elton always mentions Emma first, and Harriet as an afterthought. And he gives his "charade" to Emma when Harriet isn't around. Emma sees what she wants to see.
BELLAMARIE: "I feel Austen misdirects us with the painting." Mr. Elton is thrilled with the painting because Emma painted it, not because it shows Harriet. His praises make that clear, IF you're looking for it. I think Austen has been tremendously clever here.
HALCYON:Yes, Mr. Elton is too forward in the coach. His manners throughout aren't quite what they should be. But in his defense, he thinks Emma has received and accepted his "courtship" poem, and has no idea that she hasn't understood him.
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Jonathan: "Finally an author who knows how to work with the details."
Absolutely! I've read this book probably four times, and each time I see some detail I hadn't noticed before! Maybe that's why we "Austen addicts" are, well, addicts.
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JoanK., Yes, I completely got it all, once the whole carriage ride took place, going back to Hartfield. Emma was also able to get it, once she went home and thought more about it.
Mr. Elton did indeed think Emma was reciprocating his feelings, by accepting the Charade. If anything good has come from all of this, Emma has been taught to stop meddling in the matchmaking department. Love is complicated, even when the two parties are aware of each other's feelings, let alone all the hidden, mixed, and unspoken messages.
Emma may see what she wants to see, but I may also point out, Mr. Elton was seeing what he wanted to see as well. He was as mortified at her rejection, as she was at his professing his love for her. ??? ???
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BELLAMARIE: "Emma may see what she wants to see, but I may also point out, Mr. Elton was seeing what he wanted to see as well."
Good point!
That must have been a loooong ride back!!
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I was reading the book this morning and was surprised when I turned the page and saw VOLUME TWO, and then Chapter 1.
Being ahead of everyone else would be a first for me, I'm a slow reader. Hoever, I think most of us have read through the carriage ride in the snow.
I do hope that Austen will improve on Emma's character in the next volume. I dislike her more and more, silly girl that she is, to presume to think she can manage affairs of others, particularly affairs of the heart. She has is so blithely unaware - the book, more and more, reminds of a play, a Noel Coward one perhaps; am trying to conceive of who would play Emma and Mr. Knightly. Mr. Woodhouse and Harriett would be easier to cast.
It would have to be an English play and the only actor I know of, or can think of right at the moment, is Hugh Grant. Helen Mirren would be too old for Emma........................
Who?
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Had a thought - I wonder if this story was a spoof - I am remembering back as a girl before it was an easy comradeship between boys and girls - before twitter and for many of us we still did not have a home phone that for us did not take place till I was in the 6th grade - back when most high schools were not yet co-ed - and it was common for folks to, as we called it set each other up - and for girls and even guys to covertly tell another when someone had a crush on them - and even among family members there was pairing that often led to marriage between an unrelated cousin or a next door neighbor's son or someone from church.
And so I am wondering as Emma attempts to matchmake for Harriet if Jane Austin is attempting to show that Emma did not see it coming and had to stand up for herself so to speak in the carriage just as Harriet has to, within herself stand up for her self because others cannot read our hearts. I am wondering if that is the message of Jane Austen - that a loving union is about heart and not about the practical reasons of the day for a union of marriage based on who can afford to take care of you or others, including the suitor suggesting, look at what a perfect match you could be since you share this or that interest and therefore that should be enough to secure a marriage. Hm I am remembering the movie 7 Brides for 7 Brothers and all the brothers were in love where as the eldest goes to town to chose a wife who thought she was chosen for love and learns she was chosen because she was a good worker and that was important to this elder brother oh and by the way she was pretty.
I am seeing the interior of the carriage as a metaphor to our interior feelings and self talk that is like a carriage ride for Harriet and that the idea of a close knit society attempting to choose mates for others is filled with sharp corners so that a reader can shake their head up and down - oh yes, I know that one, ah yes, exactly how I felt and how did she know - almost as a Saturday Night Live spoof but without the comics hmm maybe more like a daytime soap opera where women at home were glued to the stories that showed the pitfalls of everyday occurrences.
I think what I am trying to say it may not be meddling that our Emma is about as much as not seeing marriage is based in mutual love and affection because as fliberty gibbit as she has been she did not seem to have a handle on love as much as loyalty and caring to please her father and those are the feelings she comes from in her relationships with others. This episode with Mr. Elton may startle her into becoming aware of herself in a new light as if his unwanted attention is a mirror to seeing herself in a different light. To really understanding she is a desirable women not just a loyal care taker with good intentions for her father for Harriet and anyone within her small circle.
P.S. stepping back I am having a difficult time expressing myself but I am thinking today we readers know the pitfalls of matchmaking and squirm thinking ill of anyone attempting to matchmake where as I am thinking it was an ordinary practice in a time before there was much casual mixture among the young marriageable age men and women - therefore the issue I am thinking during the early nineteenth century was the dichotomy between the concept of marrying for love rather than simply making a good match.
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BARB: :This episode with Mr. Elton may startle her into becoming aware of herself in a new light as if his unwanted attention is a mirror to seeing herself in a different light. To really understanding she is a desirable women"
Good point, I hadn't thought of it before. Since she isn't thinking of romance and marriage for herself, she is awfully slow to realize that someone else might look at her that way. I was thinking that since she is so sure that Mr. Elton is "below her", she just assumes he wouldn't even think he could reach that "high." but it is more than that. We'll see what she does with this new self awareness.
She is looking for a husband for Harriet more practically than romantically. A woman with no family and no money is in a pickle if she doesn't marry. The few occupations open to "gentlewomen" (teacher and governess) would not fit Harriet well. She would spend her life perhaps in the orphanage. And "marrying well" is important economically as well as socially. the more money and status her husband has, the smoother her life.
We'll see that in the next chapter with Jane Fairfax, a gentlewoman with no money who is training to be a governess.
Emma sees herself, because provided for financially and socially by her father, as above these considerations, hence above looking for a suitor. But poor Harriet is in the soup. She's run out of suitors.
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BARB: doesn't the fact that she's more worried about Harriet than her own embarrassment and fully takes responsibility for how much damage she has done (well almost. she still thinks refusing Martin was a good idea) soften you a little bit towards her?
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OH JoanK I am soft for her - in fact I am not sure I see her as meddling at all - I think she was doing what was normal in small tight knit communities - and regardless that Harriet needs to marry well, I suspect like all young girls/woman she wants a Lochinvar, a Lancelot, a prince charming who will seep into her heart regardless how acceptable to others. Her heart has to be pining for tender love as well as, for a roof over her head and decent food in her mouth and that is the aspect of Emma that I think she has not tapped - I think Emma is practical, caring, loyal and doing the best she knows how to care for her friend just as she does the best she knows how to care for her father and in fact all her relationships are based on providing a caring relationship - she banters with Mr. Knightly but under it she is a self-contained caring advisory.
I am seeing this story less about her meddling and more about the awakening of Emma - I think what we see as meddling was normal practice and she actually elevated matchmaking into a caring act of kindness - and it is that very kindness where she is missing what others want and has not identified yet in herself - they want their heart's yearning to matter - and I wonder if this is part of why Jane Austen did not marry - yes, she had the responsibility for her mother and for a time her entire family that could easily be seen as the reason she never married however, I wonder if she was pining for a love that would fill her heart and opportunity was never present.
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I do think that Emma meant to be kind in her matchmaking between Harriet and Mr. Elton but it wasn't a completely altruistic act. She thinks she is good at matchmaking and there seems to me to be a lot of self-centeredness in her taking on this task and her approach. She is young and inexperienced and used to being the center of the universe of her family and most friends. So I don't see it so much as a character flaw as an immaturity and overconfidence on her part.
I think there is quite a bit that Austen portrays about human nature in the microcosm of a small community. Barbara, I think those are interesting comparisons with Proust's limited "world" and that of Clint Eastwood when he was lost at sea in the "boat" film.
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Barb,
I think Emma is practical, caring, loyal and doing the best she knows how to care for her friend just as she does the best she knows how to care for her father and in fact all her relationships are based on providing a caring relationship - she banters with Mr. Knightly but under it she is a self-contained caring advisory.
I so agree with you here. I think you just can't be too harsh on Emma. You have to take into account what tools she has in her tool kit to work with. And, you can not forget her lack of experience and knowledge in love. I suspect as Barb mentioned, I see Emma learning, and maturing, coming into her own realization of what love really does entail.
Emma says she will never marry without love, yet what does love even mean to her? She expects to be doted on, because that is all she has known. Mr. Knightley, challenges her, gives her substance, makes her think outside her circle of safe knit family members, who do adore her. She obviously loves his challenges, because she engages each time.
Hmmmm....seems our dear Mr. George Knightley does not like how Emma has so much excitement for Frank Churchill to come for a visit. Could it be Mr. Knightley is a bit jealous? He just gets himself all twisted in a knot listening to Emma sing Frank's praises.
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A lot here.
BARB: "I am seeing this story less about her meddling and more about the awakening of Emma."
BWLLAMARIE: "I see Emma learning, and maturing, coming into her own realization of what love really does entail."
MARCIE: "I don't see it so much as a character flaw as an immaturity and overconfidence on her part."
I agree. And we'll see in what follows that Emma still has a long way to go (to grow).
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BELLAMARIE: " Could it be Mr. Knightley is a bit jealous?"
the long-awaited Frank Churchill shows up in the next section. We'll see how that stirs the pot!
Is there anyone who hasn't finished this section, yet? Did you find the last one too long? What do you think? I'm looking for a happy medium. The first section was 50 of my pages, the second 75. But I have a lot of pictures. How long are they in your book?
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'Being ahead of everyone else would be a first for me, I'm a slow reader.' Ella, that is a wonderful reccomendation for a very unusual book.
Barb, you come very close to convincing me that Emma is a saint. Blessed are the matchmakers.... Ella wants for Harriet what her sister Isabella has with her London lawyer and five kids: 'passing her life with those she doted on, full of their merits, blind to their faults, and always innocently busy, might have been a model of right feminine happiness.' (ch 17) I can't understand her father's 'lamentations over the destiny of poor Isabella.' in the same paragraph.
Seeing Robert Marten as Harriet's Lancelot is a wonderful idea. But I'm still wondering why, according to Harriet, we were told, or Emma was informed, that Marten was reading The Vicar of Wakefield Is Marten trying to understand Mr. Elton, the vicar of Highbury. Strange man that. Why can't Emma believe Mr. Knightley when he tells her that the vicar is looking for a girl with twenty thousand pounds?
Perhaps this is a spoof. I have the feeling at times that we're getting more than a little irony, satire and mockery. But I've missed too much. I'm going back to the beginning.
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Ah Jonathan, The Vicar of Wakefield isn't that about a Mr. Burchell, who is in reality the worthy Sir William Thornhill - I wonder if Mr. Marten is seeing himself as if hidden behind the disguise of a farmer but in reality thinks of himself as being like Olivia's father, an honest, generous man, with a homely philosophy as well as, the hero Sir William Thornhill who will rescue his Olivia after the house burns to the ground and after the father/Vicar lost all his money, and the Olivia of his dreams is Harriet whose house may not have burned but she is certainly in lessor circumstances.
I am wondering if part of our problem seeing Emma as a worthwhile matchmaker is we are more used to thinking of matchmakers as old and wise like the matchmaker in Fiddler on the Roof and here Emma is a sprightly young thing without the wisdom of years in her satchel.
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Perhaps 100 pages next. That doesn't seem too long but what does everyone else think. All your comments are very interesting as I seem to be having difficulty looking below the surface.
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Oh heavens, please not 100 pages. 75 was a bit much for me. I like to take my time reading, although I take notes and go back a few times to make sure I did not miss something.
Some how I completely missed this mention of The Vicar of Wakefield. Jonathan where ever did you see this, can you list the page # please?
Ah ha! So this is where you came up with the comment of burning down the house. Mr. Woodhouse is always lamenting over some "poor" person. It's his nature to see things from the "poor" point of view, as in his health. I don't take too much he says with a grain of salt.
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Mr. Woodhouse keeps lamenting the miserable state of anyone who marries. I think he's scared to death that Emma will marry and leave him. He's too selfish to put her needs before his.
How about the rest of you as to length?
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Is there more below the surface? I'm sure Jane Austen would smile at the thought.
As for burning down the house - it is a wooden house and the occupant is playing with matches
There may be more to Mr. Woodhouse than his lamentations. At least I was beginning to think so. But of course, he's afraid of losing the daughter who is taking such good care of him.
I've always meant to read The Vicar Off Wakefield It's mentioned a page or two into Chapter 4, Bella. Emma suggests that Mr. Martin reads nothing more than agricultural reports and Harriet replys that he has read the Goldsmith book, a bestseller then. He has also read Elegant Extracts, which sounds like an anthology of literary pieces. He obviously wants to improve his mind. That's more than Emma aspires to. She's more or less dropped her painting and music, and reads very little we're told. Usually just the first chapter or two.
I'll go to any lengths to find out how this all ends, as soon as possible. Only kidding. I want it to last forever. I had no idea village life could be so entertaining.
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;D
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
March/April Book Club Online
Emma
by Jane Austen
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/emma/emmacvr.jpg) | "I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like” Jane Austen of Emma.
Will you like her, the heroine who Austen claimed was most like herself, and who inspired a movie called "Clueless"? If not, there's lots more to like in this classic novel of love, misdirection, and social class. |
Schedule
March 1-5 Part I: Chapters 1-7
March 6 - 12 Part I: Chapters 8-17
March 13 Part I: Chapter 18, Part II Chapter 1-6
QUESTIONS PART I CHAPTER 18, PART II CHAPTER 1-6.
1. Why does Emma dislike Jane Fairfax so much? Do you believe the reasons she gives?
2. What causes the "interesting and animating suspicion" that "enters Emma's brain" while talking about Jane Fairfax? What evidence does she have? What kind of trouble will she get into now?
3. What does the news about Mr. Elton tell us about his character?
4. "Harriet was one of those, who, having once begun, would always be in love." Do you agree? Do you know anyone like that?
5. Why is Emma so predisposed to like frank Churchill? Why is Knightly so predisposed to dislike him? What is there about him that confirms both their opinions? What do you think?
Text of Emma (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/158/158-h/158-h.htm)~~~ Emma review (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/nov/04/100-best-novels-jane-austen-emma) ~~~ Austen related books (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/jun/15/what-matters-in-jane-austen-review)~~~ Jane Austen biography (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/austejn/austen.html)
Discussion Leader: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
Ok, let's move on on Friday, and read
Part I Ch 18, Part II Ch. 1-6.
It's only 50 pages, but we won't spend long on it. This is a bridging section, to start focusing on different characters. (Sorry, I cant come up with a new proposal of marriage in EVERY segment).
A reminder: Austen introduced her characters in the beginning, but in case you forgot:
FRANK CHURCHILL: Mr. Weston's son who, after Mr. Weston's first wife died, was raised by his rich Uncle and Aunt, Mr. and Mrs. Churchill. They had no children of their own, so made him heir to their fortune and he changed his name to Churchill.
This may seem very odd to us, but is based on what really happened to one of Austen's brothers. The Austen's were struggling, so a rich family took one of their children to raise, on condition he change his name.
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MRS. AND MISS BATES are the widow and daughter of a clergyman. Hence they are "gentlewomen", in Emma's social class. But they have been left very poor. It is one of Emma's "duties", as the chief gentlewoman of the town, to visit them from time to time, so they won't feel neglected.
They had raised a poor granddaughter of Mrs. Bates whose parents had died, JANE FAIRFAX, until Jane was nine. After that, friends, the CAMPBELLS, took her into their house in London, to be company for their daughter, Miss Campbell, and to train as a governess. Recently, the daughter had married a MR. DIXON, and moved to Ireland. Jane is going to return to Highbury.
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Not every one in the "upper class" was rich. Since the wealth and land went to the oldest son, their were always lots of other family members, who'se background entitled them to be "gentlemen" or "ladies", but who had little or no money or property. The men were only allowed to work in a few professions (the Army, Navy, clergy, and law) which might not give them enough money to leave their families well off. The women were expected to marry well. If they didn't, they would live as a poor relation in a wealthy relative's house or be a governess.
Many children were left motherless, or parentless, as these were. They were fortunate if some rich relation raised them and taught them the manners "proper" to their class, so they could marry well or enter one of the allowable professions.
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Jonathan,
I'll go to any lengths to find out how this all ends, as soon as possible. Only kidding. I want it to last forever. I had no idea village life could be so entertaining.
I had to giggle when I read this, especially, "I want it to last forever." I was doing a writing board on Pintrest and came across a few quotes that fit well with your thoughts here Jonathan. Austen's books have always made me feel like this, that is why I love her so much!
"Good books don't give up all their secrets at once." Stephen King
"I declare there is no enjoyment like reading." Jane Austen
"I'm in love with cities I have never been to, and people I have never met." John Green
"Sometimes you read a book so special that you want to carry it around with you months after you have finished just to stay near it." Markus Zusak
JoanK., Thank you for the familiarizing the characters and their places and families. 50 pages sounds good to me.
Jonathan, She's more or less dropped her painting and music, and reads very little we're told. Usually just the first chapter or two.
I get the sense from this statement, that Emma is a bit restless with her life. She is on the verge of changes, she needs more. And I have a feeling more is about to come in her life very soon.
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Bellamarie Thank you for the wonderful quotes about reading.
I agree. Emma does seem restless. Difficult environment for a bright young woman.
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Yes, and she's a people person, who needs a more stimulating social environment.
What did you think of her reaction, when she realizes her blunder?
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'...no enjoyment like reading' Jane Austen
Here's something about her reading habits:
'At Steventon rectory in Hampshire, the Austen family read to one another at all times of the day and commented on the appropriateness of each selection. "My father reads Cowper to us in the mornings, to which I listen when I can," Jane Austen wrote in 1808. "We have got the second volume of (Southey's) Espriella's Letters and I read it aloud by candlelight." Ought I to be very pleased with (Sir Walter Scott's) Marmion? As yet I am not. James (the older brother) reads it aloud every evening - the short evening, beginning about ten, and broken by supper." Listening to Madame de Genlis's Alphonsine, Austen is outraged: "We were disgusted in twenty pages, as, independent of a bad translation, it has indelicacies which disgrace a pen hitherto so pure; and we changed it for (Lennox's ) the Female Quixote, which now makes our evening amusement, to me a very high one, as I find the work quite equal to what I remember it." (Later in Austen's writings, there will be echoes of these books she has read out loud, in direct references made by characters defined through their bookish likes or dislikes: Sir Edward Denham dismisses Scott as 'tame' in Sandition, and in Northanger Abbey John Thorpe remarks, "I never read novels" - though he immediately confesses to finding Fielding's Tom Jones and Lewis's The Monk "tolerably decent". From Alberto Manguel's A History of Reading, 122-3.
No mention of The Vicar of Wakefield. But... The Monk. That's just the greatest gothic.
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JONATHAN? Have you read it?
Austen loved Gothics. her book "Northinger Abbey is a spoof on them. What is that other gothic she mentions?
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Here is the Espriella - https://archive.org/details/lettersfromengla01soutuoft
It's a travel book - not what I imagined from the excerpt Jonathan shared.
And here is Sir Walter Scott's poem; Marmion, A Tale of Flodden Field.
http://www.fullbooks.com/Marmion--A-Tale-of-Flodden-Field1.html
William Cowper was a popular Poet with several books to his credit
Madame de Genlis's Alphonsine is only available in its original French
The Female Quixote: The Adventures of Arabella by Charlotte Lennox
http://lubrixa.com/ebooks/t/the-female-quixote-or-the-adventures-of-arabella.pdf
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Barb, How exciting to learn so much of the Austen family reading.
I suppose their reading, was much like our family sitting around watching tv or movies, now that we have dvr and Netflix. One has to amuse themselves in which ever way possible, to get through long days of summer and winter. I'm suspecting their reading was much more intellectual than our movies, television programs and not to mention these apps and games our kids spend endless hours doing.
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JoanK.,
What did you think of her reaction, when she realizes her blunder?
pg. 428 The first error, and the worst, lay at her door. It was foolish, it was wrong, to take so active a part in bringing any two people together. It was adventuring too far, assuming too much, making light of what ought to be serious__a trick of what ought to be simple. She was quite concerned and ashamed, and resolved to do such things no more.
"Here have I," said she, "actually talked poor Harriet into being very much attached to this man. She might never have thought of him but for me; and certainly never would have thought of him with hope, if I had not assured her of his attachment, for she is a modest and humble as I used to think him. Oh, that I had been satisfied with persuading her not to accept young Martin. There I was quite right; that was well done of me; but there I should have stopped, and left the rest to time and chance. I was introducing her into good company, and giving her the opportunity of pleasing someone worth having; I ought not to have attempted more. But now, poor girl! her peace is cut up for some time. I have been but half a friend to her! and if she were not to feel this disappointment so very much, I am sure I have not an idea of anybody else who would be at all desirable for her. William Cox__oh, no, I could not endure William Cox__a pert young lawyer.
She stopped to blush and laugh at her own relapse, and then resumed a more serious, more dispiriting cogitation upon what had been, and might be, and must be. The distressing explanation she had to make to Harriet, and all that poor Harriet would be suffering, with the awkwardness of future meetings, the difficulties of continuing or discontinuing the acquaintance, of subduing feelings, concealing resentment, and avoiding eclat, were enough to occupy her in most unmirthful reflections some time longer, and she went to bed at last with nothing settled, but the conviction of her having blundered most dreadfully.
Emma realizes she was wrong, even though she truly believes she did it with all good intentions. She thought she was being a good friend to Harriet, wanting to introduce her to Mr. Elton, who she felt was more suitable for Harriet. She realizes she was wrong and she also takes time to reflect back to when Mr. Knightley tried to warn her of Mr. Elton.
Emma, is a work in progress!
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"Work in progress"--that's a good term for Emma. She's got a way to go, though. She vows to stop matchmaking for Harriet, then immediately finds herself considering other possibilities. She is very repentant for the pain she's caused Harriet by giving her unreasonable expectations, but she doesn't feel she was wrong to get Harriet to refuse Martin.
Did you notice how indignant Emma was at the very idea that Mr. Elton should be so presumptuous as to think he could marry Emma, who is so much above him? That sounds snooty, but it's also realistic. Her fortune is thirty thousand pounds. That's a huge amount of money--she is much richer than Austen's other female characters except one (Mr. Darcy's younger sister, who also has thirty thousand pounds). And although Hartfield doesn't have the large amount of land that Mr. Knightly has, it's the second most important estate in the area, and her family has been established there for some generations. When a woman married, her status tended to move up or down to be like her husband's, and Mr. Elton, as a poor clergyman without an impressive family, doesn't have much status. And although he's handsome, he doesn't have many personal qualities to make him worth the sacrifice--he's stolid and affected.
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I think we all have an epiphany of something we know we have done wrong, and vow to not do again, and turn right back around and think of doing it again, or do it again. It is our human nature, and yes, possibly a flaw in our character.
We all have flaws, but we also have wonderful qualities to offset them. Emma is a result of her upbringing, era, status and expectations. Mr. Knightley, is truly the only one, trying to show her she can do, and be better than she is.
Although, there is a part of her and in each of yourselves, where if you change too much, you become someone else, and not necessarily any longer that which attracted others to us in the first place. It's be careful what you wish for.
I sense what attracts Mr. Knightely, to Emma, is indeed the spunkiness, the difference in her manners, her meddling, her behavior, unlike the other ladies. Their sparring is almost like a courtship. He would not have her any other way, although he sure does feel the need to point out her flaws.
I think this is fitting especially for Emma.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d1/29/83/d1298352f8e14066a7e57c14398804be.jpg)
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:)
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I love this: "There is no one alive who is youer than you!" THAT'S certainly true of Emma.
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BARB: thanks for the books. I'm tempted to download "the female Quixote"!
the travel book starts out by saying that while travel books are rarely printed in Spain, In England, they are very popular. I can imagine Emma, bored in her village, reading about traveling.
Thinking about Austen, I'm imagining that she wished to do more traveling than she was able to do. there are hints of this longing in her books. At the same time, maybe she was a little afraid of it. There are several incidents in her books where women venture abroad, and have to be "rescued" (we'll come to Emma's later).
Have/do any of you live in a small town? If so, do you love it or hate it?With TV and the computer, we're never as constrained as Emma: we always have a window on the world. And it's possible to be more isolated in a big city where no one knows or cares about you. What do you think?
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Isn't she clever. With one or two exceptions Emma might have said those things. And even those, as we get to know her better....
'Oh, that I had been satisfied with persuading her not to accept young Martin. There I was quite right; that was well done of me; but there I should have stopped, and left the rest to time and chance.'
Wonderful quotes, Bellamarie. What an amazing look into the heart and soul of this young English girl. We're really exploring psychological and emotional depths in this novel, not to mention the curious English social scene.
'There I was wrong'. 'Here I was right.' Like Mr. Knightley, I could enjoy her company. If I could be lucky enough to catch her eye. Mr. Martin has seen her at least fifty times on the street, without her even noticing him. And yet his fate was in her hands.
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Remember, we're moving on tomorrow. The new questions are up.
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JoanK., I grew up in a small, rural town. I loved living there. I had a sense of security there, but this small town country girl, spread her wings and had to move to a bigger city life when I married. I go back to my hometown, and I think of how small it seems to me even now, even though it has developed and has tons more stores and housing. I feel like I have outgrown the town and the people. They all seem like they have not changed, and I feel like I could never fit in again.
I can't imagine Emma leaving Hartfield for long, she has never really traveled.
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LOve the reading quotes and the ones from Dr. Suess. Youer than you -- wonderful!
So why does't Emma like Jane Fairfax? Mr. Knightley probably has that pegged correctly -- Jane has nurtured her accomplishments, can show what she has learned. But also, Jane was kind of foisted on Emma -- "Oh, they'll be good friends, they're the same age." JUst the assuption that you'll be buddy buddy with someone is enough to turn you off. And then, of course, she's part of the unlovely (to Emma) Bates family. And much fuss is made of Jane Fairfax, who of course when she comes is always the new girl.
What puzzles me, and did I miss something, or is it just Emma's imagination, that there was/is something between Jane and the married-to-her-good-friend Mr. Dixon. Does Emma even know these people?
I have another question, don't understand Emma's 30,000 pounds. Is this something that is supposed to last the rest of her life? Does it decrease year after year or is it principle, of which only its growth or earnings can be spent?
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I agree; Emma dislikes Jane because she is as beautiful and intelligent as Emma, and has made better use of her talents--reading, playing the piano really well, etc., so she's an unspoken reproach to Emma for her laziness. Also, Jane is a rather quiet, reserved sort of woman, probably not really Emma's type. So, jealousy, reaction against other people's expectations, and personalities that don't mesh particularly well.
Emma hasn't met Mr. Dixon or his wife, Jane's friend. She's imagining Dixon's attraction to Jane, mostly because Jane didn't go to Ireland with the Campbells to visit the newlyweds, maybe reinforced by something or other the talkative Miss Bates has said.
The 30,000 pounds would be Emma's marriage settlement. How these would be used varied. Married women couldn't own property, so if no other arrangement had been made, the money would become the husband's, and the expectation would be that he would use it for the joint good of the family. The prudent course would be to live off the income the money produced, not touching the principal. It was possible, and prudent, to tie up a woman's money so the husband couldn't touch it. The woman had a "life interest" in it, and could enjoy the income, but the principal would go to her heirs.
I don't remember if you read the two Wilkie Collins books with us. In The Woman in White, the villain marries the heroine for her money, and spends it all. In The Moonstone, someone wants to marry the heroine for her money, but doesn't because it's tied up, and he needs more than just the income to get out of his debts.
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Austen always tells you exactly how much money some of her characters have, and scholars have fun trying to see what the modern equivalent would be. 30,000 pounds was a fortune. but there's no true modern equivalent: things were relatively much more expensive and labor relatively much cheaper. This is why we see relatively "poor"people with servants.
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I must keep on my toes to remember these new characters in the novel. I'll remember two very beautiful, refined, elegant young women, around Emma's age. Jane Fairfax, who cannot match Emma in fortune, of course, and Miss Hawkins, who can, although married to Mr. Elton. Is there an hint of jealousy on Emma's part?
Harriett is still absolutely bonkers over Mr. Martin, if only she did not listen to Emma she could very well be planning a wedding; but, no, Emma still cannot reconcile the idea of marriage to one whom is not of her station in life, even though he is a well meaning and worthy person. Poor Mr. Martin, his, "ambiiton, as well as love, had probably been mortified" when he was rejected by Harriet.
Emma is, for the first time or have I forgotten, examining her own conscience. She feels her deficiency in contributing to the "scanty comforts" of others in the community and, consequently, she did call on Miss and Mrs. Bates even though the "second and third rate of Highbury, were calling on them for ever.
I shall read on and pay attention to the new questions in the heading.
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This is not the first time Emma has examined her conscience. If you recall, after the carriage ride with Mr. Elton, she labors over everything and even has remorse.
pedln, What puzzles me, and did I miss something, or is it just Emma's imagination, that there was/is something between Jane and the married-to-her-good-friend Mr. Dixon.
Good catch, no, you did not miss something. It seems, Jane may have had something to do with Mr. Dixon, before he married Miss Campbell. Is it all Emma's imagination? Hmmm.....we shall see.
pg. 441 "Wrapped up in a cloak of politeness, she seemed determined to hazard nothing. She was disgustingly, was suspiciously reserved. If anything could be more, where all was most, she was more reserved on the subject of Weymouth, and the Dixons than anything. She seemed bent on giving no real insight into Mr. Dixon's character, or her own value for his company, or opinion of the suitableness of the match. It was all general approbation and smoothness; nothing delineated or distinguished. It did her no service, however. Her caution was thrown away, Emma saw its artifice, and returned to her first surmise. There probably was something more to conceal than her own preference; Mr. Dixon, perhaps, had been very near changing one friend for the other, or been fixed only to Miss Campbell, for the sake of the future twelve thousand pounds.
The like reserve prevailed on other topics. She and Mr. Frank Churchill had been at Weymouth at the same time. It was known that they were a little acquainted, but not a syllable of real information could Emma procure as to what he truly was, "Was he handsome?" "She believed he was reckoned a very fine man." "Was he agreeable?" "He was generally thought so," "Did he appear a sensible young man; a young man of information?" "At a watering-place, or in a common London acquaintance, it was difficult to decide on such points. Manner were all that could be safely judged, of, under a much longer knowledge than they had of Mr. Churchill. She believed everybody found his manners pleasing." Emma could not forgive her.
Why is Jane Fairfax so reserved?
When Emma first met Jane, she decided:
pg. 440 "In short, she sat, during the first visit, looking at Jane Fairfax with twofold complacency__the sense of pleasure and the sense of rendering justice, and was determining that she would dislike her no longer. When she took in her history, indeed, her situation, as well as her beauty; when she considered what all this elegance was destined to, what she was going to sink from, how she was going to live, it seemed impossible to feel anything but compassion and respect; especially, if to every well-known particular, entitling her to interest, were added the highly probable circumstance of an attachment to Mr. Dixon, which she has so naturally started to herself. In that case, nothing could be more pitiable or more honourable than the sacrifices she had resolved on. Emma was very willing now to acquit her of having seduced Mr. Dixon's affections from his wife, or anything mischievous which her imagination had suggested at first. If it were love, it might be simple, single, unsuccessful love on her side. She alone might have been unconsciously sucking in the sad poison, while a sharer of his conversation with her friend; and from the best, the purest of motives, might now be denying herself this visit to Ireland, and resolving to divide herself effectually from him and his connections by soon beginning her career of laborious duty.
Upon the whole, Emma left her with such softened, charitable feelings
These feeling did not last, due to Mr. Knightley singing Jane's praises. He really does like to wind Emma up. He knows just the right ways to push her buttons, and he thoroughly enjoys doing so.
While you can think Emma is unjustified in her feelings of jealousy, unkind, and suspicious of Jane Fairfax, I have my own suspicions of her. She is too good to be true. I always go on my instincts, as I see Emma does as well, and I am betting there is a whole lot more than meets the eye, with Miss Jane Fairfax.
I think it is only a matter of time Harriet, and Mr. Martin, will find their way back to each other. I sense Emma will come to see how much they truly love each other. Emma said she must have love, when and if, she should marry, so I see her coming around.
My book is not sectioned off into parts I, II etc. I am now on chapter 23, where Frank Churchill has just arrived. Emma seems to like him instantly. I am sure Mr. Knightley will not be liking this!
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Thank you, PatH, for your explanation about the 30,000 pounds. No, I did not reae the Wilkie Collins books you mention. It sounds like he was offering some lessons or advice for his readers.
Emma, now, if she does not marry, then she CAN own Hartfield after her father passes on? When were married women finally allowed to own property in the UK?
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Emma, now, if she does not marry, then she CAN own Hartfield after her father passes on? When were married women finally allowed to own property in the UK?
Since there seems to be no male heir anywhere, she and Isabella would presumably inherit Hartfield. However, while she was still young, Emma would not have been able to live there alone as mistress; it wasn't respectable for a young unmarried woman to live alone like that.
The Married Women's Property Act of 1884 gave women pretty much complete rights. An earlier version, 1870, gave married women partial rights; anything they earned was theirs, plus some details I'm too lazy to look up.
The basis for these restrictions is particularly annoying. Once she was married, a woman was legally no longer a person, just part of her husband. She couldn't do anything legally without his permission. Grrr.
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Mr. Knightly "knows just the right ways to push her [Emma's] buttons, and he thoroughly enjoys doing so."
Do you think he knows how annoying he's being, or is he oblivious? I envision him, when Emma and Jane were children, telling Emma that if she would just practice as much on the piano as Jane does, she might be able to play as well, and then not understanding why Emma doesn't spend more time with Jane.
Emma is trying hard to like Jane, since Jane has such a dismal future. Although Mrs. Weston gives us an example of a governess who was happy to be with her charge, and, when her charge was grown, made a good marriage, this was rare. Governesses in general were isolated, not members of the family, but too far above the servants to be one of them. They had few friends, few chances to marry, not enough income to save for old age, and just had to hope for some pittance to live on when their charges were grown and they were too old to work.
Of course, Emma has to feel sorry for Jane. But Jane soon reminds Emma that she really can't stand her. Emma's hopes of finding out about the elusive Frank Churchill, gone. How aggravating!
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'Grrr. Thanks for that apt expression, Pat. You make good use of it in the context of wives and property rights, but it comes in real handy as a reaction to many things going on in the story. Harriet, with nothing to lose in a marriage, should be the envy of women such as Emma and Mrs Elton. Harriet is the ray of hope, representing true love in the midst of calculating women.
And perhaps Jane as well. I got the impression, the first, that she was guilty of something and was preparing for a lifetime of penance in some nunnery. Other impressions will likely follow.
How could the proud, self-assured, self-esteeming Emma ever be jealous of her? Nobody in Highbury can touch her. Who would dare to call her on anything. But she does need reining in. And Mr. Knightley does try. Tries to give her the benefit of his experinece, reminding her that he was already sixteen when she was born. Their frank discussions seem somehow the only rational thing in the plot. And the way they play with the other characters makes them look like pawns or marrionettes. Discussing the character and fate of the others. I can't get over this unique narrative style.
It's only Harriet, as far as I can see. that assures a happy ending. The others left to themselves are only making a mess of things.
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Every time I reread an Austen novel I see something new in it.
This is backtracking, but I can’t move on without commenting on chapter 12. I hadn’t noticed before what a funny scene it is.
This is the evening of the day that John and Isabella Knightley arrive for their visit at Hartfield, and John’s brother, Mr. Knightley, has been invited. Dinner is over, and they are sitting and talking, the Knightley brothers with each other about farm matters and legal things, and Isabella and her father together about various things.
Emma is on the sidelines, waiting for explosions.
There are several to be expected: Mr. Woodhouse resents the Knightleys going to the seaside in the fall instead of visiting him. He and Isabella are both health fussers; he will fuss at her about the lack of benefits of sea air, and they each are devoted to their family doctor, and will pit their opinions against each other. John Knightley doesn’t like all this fussing, and if he overhears too much of it, will get mad; if he thinks any of it reflects on him, he will really explode.
Emma dances around the conversations, deftly changing the subject whenever things get tricky, aided by the elder Mr. Knightley some of the time. It gets harder and harder, and finally the explosion comes. John goes into a tirade, everyone else soothes and distracts like mad, and finally things end amicably.
It’s all done with a nice sense of rhythm and comic timing.
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JoanK.,
Do you think he knows how annoying he's being, or is he oblivious?
Oh, I think Mr. Knightley, indeed knows what he is doing. He smirks and smiles, and even toys with her in front of her father.
pg. 441-442
Emma could not forgive her, but neither provocation nor resentment were discerned by Mr. Knightley, who had been of the party, and had seen only proper attention and pleasing behaviour on each side, he was expressing the next morning, being at Hartfield again on business with Mr. Woodhouse, his approbation of the whole, not so openly as he might have done had her father been out of the room, but speaking plain enough to be very intelligible to Emma. He had been used to think her unjust to Jane, and now great pleasure in marking an improvement.
"A very pleasant evening," he began, as soon as Mr. Woodhouse had been talked into what was necessary, told that he understood, and papers swept away__"particularly pleasant. You and Miss Fairfax gave us some very good music. I do not know a more luxurious state, sir, than sitting at one's ease to be entertained a whole evening by two such young women, sometimes with music and sometimes with conversation. I am sure Miss Fairfax must have found the evening pleasant, Emma. You left nothing undone. I was glad you made her play so much, for having no instrument at her grandmother's, it must have been a real indulgence." "I am happy you approve," Emma smiling; "but I hope I am not often deficient in what is due to guests at Hartfield." "No, my dear," said her father, instantly; "that I am sure you are not. There is nobody half so attentive and civil as you are. If anything you are too attentive. "No," said Mr. Knightley, nearly at the same time; "you are not often deficient; not often deficient, either in manner or comprehension. I think you understand me, therefore." An arch look expressed__"I understand you well enough; but she said only, "Miss Fairfax is reserved."
"My dear Emma." said he, moving from his chair into one close by her, you are not going to tell me, I hope, that you had not a pleasant evening?"
"She must have found the evening agreeable, Mr. Knightley, because she had Emma." "True, sir, and Emma, because she had Miss Fairfax."
Mr. Knightley is constantly reigning her in, as Jonathan points out:
Jonathan, But she does need reining in. And Mr. Knightley does try. Tries to give her the benefit of his experinece, reminding her that he was already sixteen when she was born. Their frank discussions seem somehow the only rational thing in the plot. And the way they play with the other characters makes them look like pawns or marrionettes. Discussing the character and fate of the others. I can't get over this unique narrative style.
Indeed the two of them seem as the puppet masters, or masters of a chess game, with the rest of the characters. Mr. Knightley, sure seems to be trying to pull all of Emma's strings, and she is not so easy to manipulate. The King in this chess game, continues to try to corner his Queen, and she doesn't seem to be so easily captured!
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JONATHAN, PAT, BELLAMARIE: YES, we are really getting "into" Austen.. I have never read Emma in this slow, detailed way before, and what fun it is to see what a master Austen is at revealing character and plot through the details of everyday conversation and thought.
Now we have another new character to hash over, Frank Churchill.
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Pat, I'm glad you pointed out that very funny scene. There does seem to be lots of humor in the book and so far a lot of it involves characters that Emma respects in some sense, such as her father, sister and brother-in-law. I remember humorous scenes in her other books, for example PRIDE AND PREJUDICE, and much of the humor came from characters Elizabeth, the protagonist, didn't care for, such as the clergyman, Mr. Collins, and Darcy's rich aunt.
I think that Mr. Knightley does tease Emma at times but I think that most of the time, his "corrections" of her and his cautions about her behavior are meant seriously and he is not trying to push her buttons. My take on him is that he is so concerned, "for her own good," that Emma live up to her potential and all that he sees in her that is isn't aware how harsh he might seem toward her.
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I think Mr. Knightley is concerned for Emma, because he loves her and has not really come to realize it. They spar like two people courting. They send each other smirks, smiles, and arched eyebrows, etc., like secret lovers, without even realizing it. He has taken liberty to critique her every move, and word. She expects his disapproval at every turn, yet I think she is hoping for his approval. I feel he wants her to be, all he expects in a wife.
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Bellamarie You always make such a compelling argument for the love between Mr. Knightly and Emma. I have a hard time understanding Mr. Knightly and his motives. He has watched Emma grow up from a babe. Does he see himself as an older brother or a father figure knowing Mr. Woodhouse would never criticize his perfect Emma? Why does he take this upon himself? When Emma was ten he was 26. Why wasn't he looking for a wife then. He couldn't have fallen in love with a 10 year old. I don't find the age difference unusual if he had not been a family friend and watched her grow up. Oh, well we'll find out. I loved your Seuss quotes.
As far as that little worm Mr Elton.....a vicar turned gigolo in my opinion.
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"They spar like two people courting....without even realizing it." Good comment, Bellamarie. How long do you think they have been doing that? When do you think Emma started showing so much independence of mind? Did he teach her that? What struck me is that unlike others in the book, with these two it matters for each what the other is thinking. A meeting of minds.
There is so much humor in the book. And it's enjoyable to hear where you all find it. Please bring it to the table. Here's something I chuckled over, but first I would like to say that I'm very disappointed that we never get to read the significant letters that matter so much to the plot. We hear a lot about them, but always from someone's point of view.
Now here, in Ch 1, of Bk 2, we hear about the letter from Jane Fairfax to her aunt and grandmother, the Bates ladies. We're going to hear it read but Emma has heard enough just from the telling and finds she has not the time and leaves. (She calls on the Bates ladies only reluctantly as a social obligation. Too often she finds herself meeting second and third raters visiting there.) And now the letter:
Miss Bates:'...but, first of all, I must, in justice to Jane, apologise for her writing so short a letter - only two pages you see - hardly two - and in general she fills the whole paper and crosses half. My mother often wonders that I can make it out so well. She often says, when the letter is first opened, "Well, Hetty, now I think you will be put to it to make out all the chequer-work" - don't you, mother - I am sure she would pore over it till she had made out every word of it, if she had nobody to do it for her.'
We're told that Jane is extemely intelligent. Presumably each crossed-out word is a change of mind. Wouldn't a letter like that be a puzzler? haha. Austen probably didn't feel up to composing it.
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...in general she fills the whole paper and crosses half.
Jane is not crossing things out here. Postage was very expensive then, and charged by the sheet, so to save money, after you had filled up both sides of the page, you would turn it at right angles and write more, so the lines crossed each other at right angles. It's hard to read, which is why Mrs. Bates often says "I think you will be put to it to make out all the chequer-work". If you scroll down a bit on this site you will see an example of a crossed letter written by Jane Austen:
https://janeaustensworld.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/a-womans-wit-jane-austens-letters/ (https://janeaustensworld.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/a-womans-wit-jane-austens-letters/)
I like the way the chapter ends:
"She regained the street--happy in this, that though much had been forced on her against her will, though she had in fact heard the whole substance of Jane Fairfax's letter, she had been able to escape the letter itself."
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Jonathan and PatH., Yes, the letter.....I loved how Emma managed to escape having to go through the reading of the letter. I seriously thought I could take NO more of Mrs. Bates rattling on. I was ready to yell, STOP! ::) ::)
Halcyon, I am not so sure why Mr. Knightley has appointed himself Emma's judge and jury, on her every word and action. It may have started out as a big brother intent, and as she grew into a woman, the feelings could have shifted.
You ask, when could he have fallen in love with her, I suspect it has been since she has become a woman, seeing other men noticing her.
Not to cause any controversy, because I in no way see Mr. Knightley, like Lewis Carroll, but, it has been suggested, Carroll fell for Alice Liddell at a very young age. He did write her a letter, that upset Alice's mother, and was suspected of either professing his love for her, or intimating marriage. But, then again.....a letter that never really was shared with the readers, to know exactly what was in it.
In Gone With the Wind, Rhett Butler was 17 yrs. older than Scarlett O'Hara. At the end of the story Scarlett is 28 yrs. old and Rhett is 45 yrs. old. He knew her since she was very young as well. "During the time span of the novel, from 1861 to 1873, Scarlett ages from sixteen to twenty-eight years. The literary technique applied in telling the story is Bildungsroman,[32] which is a type of novel concerned with the moral and psychological growth of the protagonist from youth to adulthood (coming-of-age story)"
wikipedia.org/wiki/Gone_with_the_Wind
Mr. Darcy in Pride and Prejudice is about 8 yrs. older than Elizabeth.
I don't think it was uncommon for men to fall in love with much younger women back then. It was a perfect way to conform them into the wife they wanted. Although.....Emma, like Scarlett and Elizabeth, is refusing to be conformed. She is who she is, and I don't see her changing for anyone.
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I'm trying but this story is making me very uncomfortable as I see Mr. Knightly acting with full blown male entitlement, all under the guise of titillating the reader to believe women need to be controlled and formed into a male approved image in order to be an acceptable love match - then we wonder why battered women do not see it coming - sorry folks to be a downer but this story is lethal covered with 'nice' - even if it is to be read as history with all the lovely day to day details of home and countryside the story still plants dangerous role modeling.
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BARB: yes, but it was the modeling of the day. I have trouble with Mr. Knightly too. A different relationship is portrayed in "Pride and Prejudice.
Miss Bates lost Jane's letter under her "huswife". A huswife (housewife) was a clothe bag for holding sewing implements.
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Barbara,"male entitlement" certainly was a serious issue in Austen's time and continues to be today. Austen frequently introduces into her stories the custom of "entailment" of property to the male line of a family, bypassing daughters, and shows the real or potential effects on women in her books. She contrasts the freedom (that at least wealthy men have) to go to school, to have a profession, even just to move about with that of the women she portrays as having to stay close to home unless escorted by a man.
With all of the hardships on women that Austen shows, I don't think that she portrays proud men, acting with male entitlement, has having the "last say" in their relationships with women who have "sense" and some spunk. The strong male characters (for example, Darcy in Pride and Prejudice), show pride and even disdain early on but usually acknowledge and repent of their arrogance by the end of the book (we'll have to see what happens in this story). The weaker men (for example, Mr. Collins, in Pride and Prejudice) are usually kept skillfully in check by their wives.
I agree with you, Barbara, that novels could be written about the evils of "male entitlement" perpetrated by more flawed characters than those in Austen's books, but I don't think that she necessarily sugar coats the men and the women that she has chosen to portray and I don't think that the women of "sense" that she characterizes believe that they should be controlled by men.
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March/April Book Club Online
Emma
by Jane Austen
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/emma/emmacvr.jpg) | "I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like” Jane Austen of Emma.
Will you like her, the heroine who Austen claimed was most like herself, and who inspired a movie called "Clueless"? If not, there's lots more to like in this classic novel of love, misdirection, and social class. |
Schedule
March 1-5 Part I: Chapters 1-7
March 6 - 12 Part I: Chapters 8-17
March 13 Part I: Chapter 18, Part II Chapter 1-6
March 19 Part II: Chapter 7-13
QUESTIONS PART I CHAPTER 18, PART II CHAPTER 1-6.
1. Why does Emma dislike Jane Fairfax so much? Do you believe the reasons she gives?
2. What causes the "interesting and animating suspicion" that "enters Emma's brain" while talking about Jane Fairfax? What evidence does she have? What kind of trouble will she get into now?
3. What does the news about Mr. Elton tell us about his character?
4. "Harriet was one of those, who, having once begun, would always be in love." Do you agree? Do you know anyone like that?
5. Why is Emma so predisposed to like frank Churchill? Why is Knightly so predisposed to dislike him? What is there about him that confirms both their opinions? What do you think?
QUESTIONS VOLUME II CHAPTERS 7-13
1. Does the fact that frank Churchill goes to London to get his hair cut change your opinion of him? Why or why not?
2. Why does Emma not want to go to the Coles? Do such class distinctions exist where you live? What is their basis? Why did her opinion of the Coles change when she got there?
3. Did Emma do wrong when she shared her suspicions of Jane Fairfax with Frank? What do you think of his efforts to tease Jane about them in chapter X?
4. Who do you think the piano came from? What do Jane's reactions while people are talking about it tell you?
5. Is Emma falling in love with Frank Churchill? Is it possible not to know if you're in love or not?
6. "A mind lively and at ease, can do with seeing nothing, and can see nothing that does not answer." Do you agree?
7. Harriet, tempted by everything and swayed by half a word, was always very long at a purchase." Have you ever gone shopping with a friend like that? How did it work out?
Text of Emma (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/158/158-h/158-h.htm)~~~ Emma review (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/nov/04/100-best-novels-jane-austen-emma) ~~~ Austen related books (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/jun/15/what-matters-in-jane-austen-review)~~~ Jane Austen biography (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/austejn/austen.html)
Discussion Leader: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Hmm I hear y'all however, I see us thinking, as the author suggests, that Emma is meddling inappropriately as a match maker however, Mr. Knightly is as inappropriately meddling in Emma's life but it is OK since he is possibly 'grooming' her to be a good wife.
Seems to me we need to acknowledge when behavior is dangerous in addition to how we are carried along with the beauty of the words and scenes - there may be other views by this author in her other books however, I am commenting on this story and it makes me uncomfortable -
As to 'male entitlement' I am not speaking of the legal aspects but the behavior that was damaging to those who regardless if they chaffed under this 'historical socially acceptable' behavior or not, I'm hearing us suggest it is playful bantering - that to me is upsetting - if it is not to you, then god bless - I am only seeing it through my eyes and after having volunteered, taking the extensive 50 hours of training required, at the Battered Women's Center the behavior in this story is screaming at me.
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BARB: "after having volunteered, taking the extensive 50 hours of training required, at the Battered Women's Center the behavior in this story is screaming at me."
A lot off men's behavior as portrayed in literature screams at me, too: we even see rape portrayed as sexy (remember Scarlett O'Hara!), and certainly some other violence condoned.. I don't see Knightly battering Emma, I do see him continuing to tell her how to live her life. But perhaps we underestimate her: she's pretty feisty.
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No he is not battering nor do I suspect he will given his upbringing - he is letting her know that he does not approve of her behavior - as if his approval has validity and it is supposed to be seen as giving her attention - sorry that is not how it goes and yes, it was what set women for abuse as second class citizens -
While reading if we reverse the roles and see a women in the role of Knightly and how a man in the role of Emma would react - that is what gave me pause in the early part of the story as if we should be finding fault with Emma for meddling and expecting certain behavior from others, especially Harriet yet, we believe it is the 'right' of a man to think it is flirtatious for Knightly to expect certain behavior from Emma - that kind of expectations from a more powerful man or women, and we know he has the power at this time in history, just as Emma had the power of station over Harriet, and even Jane is not as wealthy therefore, not in the same power position as Emma and Isabella is shown as not very bright however, knightly trumps and is in the position to, as the expression is used to 'groom' the less powerful to be as they believe the 'lesser' should act more appropriately, which is controlling those in their surroundings to their comfort level.
Again, I do not think we are discussing other books and to say that because other authors do the same thing concerns me - it is like saying because Jack does it to his girlfriend we should not expect Mike to treat me any differently - granted there would not be a story since this is a major aspect of this story - what bothers me is we are suggesting it is cute or acceptable and flirtatious which sends a chill up my spine. No, we are not living then and we do not expect to see our daughters put up with this but, to ignore it and pretend, since it was written in a classic, makes it something acceptable without our remarking the inappropriateness, is how we implant in our minds that it is OK and part of acceptable patriarchy.
I do not want the book to be banished or for any of us to stop reading it - I just hoped that comments would be made about the abusive behavior and that these examples of abusive behavior are passé - Emma may be feisty but we are supposed to see this as titillating - accepting that viewpoint is how we learn to dismiss the many small abuses so that we do not see strong women as cute and pretty but rather, playacting with their power.
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As I indicated earlier, I personally don't see Mr. Knightley as pushing Emma's buttons or flirting with her in most of the criticisms he gives of her. I think he, as a friend, is seriously trying to help her become what he sees as her potential (and I don't think it's because he is grooming her for marriage). He sees that there is no one else in her life who does that for her--men or women. I do think he carries some of his criticisms too far and is somewhat arrogant in his manner of critiquing Emma's behavior. That is something that I hope that he will see in himself later in the book and improve upon (as Darcy did in Pride and Prejudice). He has no authority to make Emma do or not do anything. He's making his views known to her. I don't think that he personally has anything to gain by pointing out some things that he thinks are inappropriate for Emma to be doing. I don't see him as abusive but I do think he could do better in when and how he gives his unsolicited advice to Emma.
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I do have issues with Mr. Knightley appointing himself Emma's moral compass. If you notice a few times Austen says he does it when Mr. Woodhouse is not in the room, or he moves closer to her so Mr. Woodhouse does not hear him. When and if Mr. Woodhouse hears Mr. Knightley say negative comments to Emma, he replies with positive, and praise.
Some have felt that Mr. Woodhouse has spoiled Emma, feeling Mr. Knightley is the only one willing to call her out, criticize her, or reign her in, so he has the right to. I do not feel he has the right to constantly critic her every move and word, with everyone. I say thank goodness she has a father who thinks so highly of her. All girls should have a father like Mr. Woodhouse, he has raised her with enough self confidence to be different. To not be a mold of expectations, to speak up for her beliefs, even when they are not popular. She is a woman, not a child, and should be respected, as much as Mr. Knightley expects her, to respect others. She has her flaws, just as everyone does, and yes, she is a work in progress, but it seems Mr. Knightley is never willing to cut her any slack.
Who knows, maybe that is why Jane Austen never married, maybe she is writing about controlling men, trying to mold women, and wanting to break the spirit of strong women, because she herself saw some men like this. Austen was a woman ahead of her times, I sense she never would let a Mr. Knightley get away with this.
I am anxious to see how this story ends. And yes, Marcie, in Pride and Prejudice, Mr. Darcey did indeed write Elizabeth a letter, acknowledging his wrongful actions, and arrogance in the end. Without it, they could never have ended up together. I can only hope Mr. Knightley, will come to see his extreme expectations, and treatment of Emma, and can repent, or maybe he will not end up with her at all.
Barbara, Emma may be feisty but we are supposed to see this as titillating -
I have not seen Emma's spunkiness or feistiness as "titillating," if anything I see her holding her ground with Mr. Knightley. I sense Austen has wrote it, for Mr. Knightley to see it as "titillating," and he does things, as I said prior, to push her buttons. Emma does seem to smirk and smile with his annoyances of her, but I sense it is her defense mechanisms, because she finds him so critical of her.
Marcie, I think he, as a friend, is seriously trying to help her become what he sees as her potential (and I don't think it's because he is grooming her for marriage). He sees that there is no one else in her life who does that for her+
If this is the case then why can he not do it comfortably in front of her father? Because, he knows her father will not tolerate this type of behaviour from anyone, where his daughter is concerned, and rightfully so.
I agree with Barbara, it seems a double standard, Emma is wrong for meddling, yet it is okay for Mr. Knightley to meddle.
I don't see it as abuse, but I do see it as, NOT his place, and hope he realizes it, and comes to an apology.
Whether we agree or dislike it, the love novels of all ages seem to place the man in the same type of character as Mr. Knightley, Mr. Darcy, and even Rhett Butler. Take a look at the disgusting book/movie, Fifty Shades of Grey., here the author gets away with taking it to an extreme, and women flocked to the stores, and theaters to romanticize, and condone this type of treatment on women. I saw hundreds of posts of women saying they want to have a Christian Grey. Throughout the ends of time the male characters have been portrayed in the dominating roles, trying to make stronger women characters submit to their all knowing ways, or live up to their potential. Who gives the men, the entitlement, to assume they know, what is best for the female? Authors/writers of course!
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Barb, your points are extremely important, but it doesn't seem to me that's what we're seeing here. Some of the things Knightly is criticizing are the same things Mrs. Weston tried, and failed, to get Emma to change. I don't see anything titillating about their exchanges. He is frustrated to see her messing up, and some of the things he criticizes have caused real harm to others. He's definitely too sure that he's always right, but I agree with Marcie that he is seriously trying to help her realize her potential, the only one of her friends who does this.
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5. Why is Emma so predisposed to like frank Churchill? Why is Knightly so predisposed to dislike him? What is there about him that confirms both their opinions? What do you think?
I think Frank Churchill is a delightful character. He's Emma's age, outgoing, respectful to his father and stepmother, well mannered, fun and likes to gossip a bit plus he's someone new to their limited circle. For all the reasons Emma likes him Mr. Knightly doesn't. Maybe Mr. Knightly thinks Frank Churchill will be a bad influence on Emma simply because of his youth.
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PatH.,
Some of the things Knightly is criticizing are the same things Mrs. Weston tried, and failed, to get Emma to change. I don't see anything titillating about their exchanges. He is frustrated to see her messing up, and some of the things he criticizes have caused real harm to others. He's definitely too sure that he's always right, but I agree with Marcie that he is seriously trying to help her realize her potential, the only one of her friends who does this.
Much abuse has taken place, where men were only trying to help a woman, "realize her potential." This is NOT his place to criticize her every move. Mrs. Weston adores Emma, so even though she guided her in certain ways, she never criticizes her and finds constant fault in her, as Mr. Knightley does.
Again, I think the novel fits the times of how love stories and movies were written, and yes, even continue to be written today.
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Halycon,
For all the reasons Emma likes him Mr. Knightly doesn't. Maybe Mr. Knightly thinks Frank Churchill will be a bad influence on Emma simply because of his youth.
Why does this not surprise me, Mr. Knightley would not like Frank Churchill, when Emma does?
I have some suspicions of Jane Fairfax and Frank Churchill, but I won't cast judgement too soon. Why did Frank want to go see Jane, but refuse to go with his father, or anyone else for that matter?
This story is full of tangled webs, and webs being spun. Austen never bores her readers, that is for sure!
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Well. Well. I'm seeing things in a new light. It has become a very upsetting book since I've been made aware of the scorn dripping from Austen's pen. And here I was going along being entertained by the granny of chick-lit.
Thanks, Pat, for pointing out the meaning of the 'crossed' writing in Jane's letter. I should have known. I've seen letters like that. What caught my attention, and informed my opinion, was something Miss Bates said about Jane's letter writing:
"I always make a point of reading Jane's letters through to myself first, before I read them aloud to my mother, you know, for fear of there being any thing in them to distress her. Jane desired me to do it, so I always do."
I thought Jane might be expressing her feelings too candidly and thinking better of it, for her grandmother's sake. I resolve to take this book more seriously. But even so, I wish there had been a warning about its content before we started.
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Jonathan,
I wish there had been a warning about its content before we started.
What warnings of content, do you think could have been forthcoming?
As much as we can agree, or disagree, or agree to disagree, about how Mr. Knightley does, or does not overstep his place in being Emma's moral, social, etc. compass, for whatever his motives are, is this no more, or no less, as most love/romantic novels, and movies have been written throughout time? Consider other authors, and screenwriters....Danielle Steele, EL James, Pearl Buck, Robin Oliveira, just to name a few, and what about poets, who have been famous for centuries with male dominating roles over women? And what about famous painters, who put women in sexual, nude positions, to fancy their imaginations. And let us not forget the songwriter's lyrics. They romanticize the chase, the dominance, the submissiveness, and it has sold for centuries. Only in todays world of real strength, acknowledgement and awareness, are women starting to say....NO MORE! Some don't buy into it any more.
Barbara, you speaking out really did bring my uncomfortable feelings about Mr. Knightley to the forefront. I continuously kept saying, who made him the appointee of Emma's behaviour, but I also was seeing how Austen, like many of her other novels, was once again, using the chase and dominance in her characters.
I have no idea how this ends. If I were guessing by all the other books I have read of Austen, I would assume, Emma and Mr. Knightley have an awakening of their true feelings for each other, he realizes he has been way to hard on Emma, admits his own faults and they live happily ever after. Then again, I could be so off the mark. But, regardless, for me personally, I do see him grooming Emma to adapt her, in becoming what Mr. Knightley sees to be either a wife for himself, or someone else. Either way...........it's NOT his place to try to change the person she is. She has character flaws, just like everyone else. Yes, her meddling has at times caused hurt to others, and she has acknowledged it, and has wanted to do better. This I feel, is Austen's finest writing in this story, because she makes Emma human, fallible, remorseful, and yes, tempted to do it again.
As in scripture, James 8:7 "Let the person among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."
I plan to continue reading the book. I do want to see where this ends. I will continue to root for Emma's happiness, and pray she stays the strong- minded, spunky woman, faults and all. As for Mr. Knightley, as Scarlett O'Hara said,
"I can't think about that right now. If I do I'll go crazy. I'll think about that tomorrow."
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I will continue to root for Emma's happiness, and pray she stays the strong- minded, spunky woman, faults and all. rah rah...
I am seeing their exchange now as a duel of power - as long as Emma is under her father's roof she has legally more power than most everyone except Mr. Knightly who is the male version of wealth and British morals - the other night during one of these background stories for Downton Abbey there was a point made how Britain was not so prim, proper in its soldiering of place - that the gentry was so scared by the French Revolution that their answer was to bring about great social order through place and manners.
OK getting past the behavior of Mr. Knightly towards Emma and seeing them as symbolic - and since this story was written only 16 years after the end of the 10 years French Revolution I can see Emma being the carefree young women of pre-Revolution - with Knightly representing the new contained behavior that was going to save their skin so, it better be taken as serious.
Then looking up late eighteenth century I found a treasure trove - George the third was on the thrown till he died in 1820 - movies have shown him to be mad however, new science examining some of his hair found he had a rare genetic disease made worse by the treatment available at the time. He soldiered Britain through the 7 year war - dealt with the American Revolution - and the War of 1812 but was sickly and later went mad - cared for by his wife and his physician - so we have echoes of Emma's sickly father.
Granted Emma was the daughter but then she was head of the household - Charlotte queen to George III, who initiated the Charlotte Ball to celebrate his wife's birthday in 1780 and the Charlotte Ball is still a highlight of British Society - "The Queen Charlotte's Debutante Ball sees the daughters of the wealthy elite play a Downton lady for a day: Annual ball is held in Highclere Castle" - and so we have Emma with her dance parties.
These bits and pieces are not gender specific but do play a part in the story - "George had a learning disability. This made it extremely hard for him to do his studies and he did not even learn to read until he was 11. His tutors, however, were always extremely pleased with how hard he was willing to work." Jane Austen has reading or the lack of included in the story.
This story line does not fit Knightly but the quote I could see him making - "When he was a teenager, he met a young woman by the name of Lady Sarah Lenox. They fell in love and swore they would be married one day, but when George suggested the match, many of the people close to him disapproved. He then wrote to Sarah and told her "I am born for the happiness or misery of a great nation, and consequently must often act contrary to my passions."" - that seems to me to be a character trait of Knightly - he does not seem happy or miserable and shows little passion except to make sure Emma acts as becoming a women in British society that, from recently learned information was a new controlled and conforming culture of place and manners.
For me that bit is the saving grace reading this book because yes, I see the earmarks of the early stages of spousal abuse - controlling - however, if the behavior is taken away from the concept of an individual character and see it as an over arching development of a changing society that is exemplified by the characters in this story I can go for it.
Another couple of bits that I see woven into the story - first of all not woven in is that Queen Charlotte had 15 children of which 13 lived to be adults - OKaaa...
"The King enjoyed country pursuits and riding and preferred to keep his family's residence as much as possible in the then rural towns of Kew and Richmond-upon-Thames. He favoured an informal and relaxed domestic life, to the dismay of some courtiers more accustomed to displays of grandeur and strict protocol. Lady Mary Coke was indignant on hearing in July 1769 that the King, Queen, her visiting brother Prince Ernest and Lady Effingham had gone for a walk through Richmond town by themselves without any servants. "I am not satisfied in my mind about the propriety of a Queen walking in town unattended."" The propriety of the Queen was even in question when she did not follow strict protocol and the relaxed domestic life sure fits our Emma.
Another bit that is similar to and could be a the prototype for the warmth emanating from Emma. "Queen Charlotte endeared herself to her ladies and her children's attendants by treating them with friendly warmth, as in this note she wrote to her daughters' assistant governess:
My dear Miss Hamilton, What can I have to say? Not much indeed! But to wish you a good morning, in the pretty blue and white room where I had the pleasure to sit and read with you The Hermit, a poem which is such a favourite with me that I have read it twice this summer. Oh! What a blessing to keep good company! Very likely I should not have been acquainted with either poet or poem was it not for you."
Queen Charlotte was a good friend to Marie Antoinette carrying on a vibrant correspondence - so much so that Charlotte had an apartment prepared and ready for the royal family of France to occupy. Also during her reign the Swedish King was shot and killed. With all this trauma I can see how if Knightly was given the characteristics of the nation in the upper classes he would be controlling and not a very happy go lucky type to the point of being critical of anyone who did not display a seriousness of character.
Jane Austen probably wrote him as many men of the day however, today we know that control is a power move that is not supportive of individual creativity or the development of a loving adult relationship however, as a caricature of a nation he is well written.
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Barb,
"I am seeing there exchange now as a duel of power - as long as Emma is under her father's roof she has legally more power than most everyone except Mr. Knightly who is the male version of wealth and British morals"
There is no doubt their is a duel of power, Emma is going to hang on to her place, she so rightly holds in her family, and hold on to her personal beliefs, regardless if Mr. Knightley approves or not. Good for her!!!
(Mr. Knightley)he does not seem happy or miserable and shows little passion except to make sure Emma acts as becoming a women in British society that, from recently learned information was a new controlled and conforming culture of place and manners.
I still do not feel he has the right to treat her as he does, so no saving grace, or acceptance of his behavior from me! Only if, and until he realizes, he has no right, and has been too extreme with Emma, and apologizes, will he have my saving grace and acceptance.
And, I suspect Emma will feel the same.
I watch Downton Abbey as well, and Emma reminds me of Mary. Mary is very independent, is involved in making financial decisions pertaining to the estate, has meddled in peoples lives causing some pain, look how she just manipulated Mr. Gillingham into leaving her alone and no longer persuaing her, after she slept with him. OH MY! Talk about a liberated woman, before her times. Imagine what Mr. Knightley would think of Mary.
Jane Austen probably wrote him as many men of the day however, today we know that control is a power move that is not supportive of individual creativity or the development of a loving adult relationship however, as a caricature of a nation he is well written.
As I have said, he is the man of the times. We may know that the control is a power move that is not supportive of individual creativity or the development of a loving adult relationship, but.....the writers continue to write these same stories and the screenwriters continue to make these type of movies, and I don't see it ever changing. It is what sells. Fifty Shades of Grey was an all time week-end money maker, and that is sad, but the reality.
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Is everyone caught up? I'd like to move on Thursday 3/19 to
Part II Chapters 7-14 (65 pages)
Does anyone feel rushed by this?
Anyone want to tackle the questions meanwhile?
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I am all caught up, and ready to move on to the new chapters, on Thursday.
I tackled most of the questions, but I will respond to the one I never got to.
What does the news about Mr. Elton tell us about his character?
I think Mr. Elton was determined to find a woman, and marry her to advance himself in finances, and social status. It did not take him long to get over his love of Emma, and get engaged with someone else. Which makes it obvious, he was not in love with Emma at all. Flawed character, in my estimation.
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Definitely a flawed character, and definitely no broken heart. He was always looking to marry for money. Evidently he was more open about this when talking to men. In chapter 8, when Knightly is warning Emma not to try to link up Elton and Harriet, he says of Elton:
"He knows that he is a very handsome young man, and a great favourite wherever he goes; and from his general way of talking in unreserved moments, when there are only men present, I am convinced that he does not mean to throw himself away."
By the way, have you noticed that Austen doesn't have scenes in which there are no women present? This is deliberate; she didn't know how men talked among themselves, and didn't want to get it wrong. Her little microscopic field of vision must be exact.
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PatH., Good observation. Austen would only have to assume how other men interact with other men, with no women present.
Before we move on to the next chapters, it would be amiss of us to not discuss the conversation of Emma and Mr. Frank Churchill. It seems once she is able to get him alone on their walk, he opens up to her about how he does not find Jane Fairfax pretty, nor does he find her reserved behavior attractive, if anything he agrees with Emma, about it seeming to be suspicion of things to hide.
Emma also reveals, that even though she and Jane knew each other as children and adults, she was not so close to Jane as a friend because of her reservedness.
pg. 456 -457 "Well," said Emma, "there is no disputing about taste. At least you admire her, except her complexion." He shook his head and laughed. "I cannot separate Miss Fairfax and her complexion."
I like how Frank is cautious, and respects Miss Fairfax, as a gentleman would be expected to do, at first, when Emma asked,
"I merely asked, whether you had known much of Miss Fairfax and her party at Weymouth." "And now that I understand your question I must pronounce it to be a very unfair one. It is always the lady's right to decide on the degree of acquaintance. Miss Fairfax must already have given her account. I shall not commit myself by claiming more than she may choose to allow."
Once she tells Frank, that Jane has not really said anything, he may speak, Mrs. Weston says to Emma,
"You get upon delicate subjects, Emma," said Mrs. Weston, smiling; "remember that I am here. Mr. Frank Churchill hardly knows what to say when you speak of Miss Fairfax's situation in life, I will move a little further off."
What did you all make of this? I took it that Mrs. Weston was moving further away, so Emma could probe further about Miss Fairfax, with her out of hearing distance. She smiles, as if she is giving Emma her approval, to continue with this questioning. Then, Frank goes on to say, how Mr. Dixon should not have asked Jane to play her music, with him being engaged to Miss Campbell.
pg. 457 "I have been used to hear hers admired; and I remember proof of her being thought to play well: a man, a very musical man, and in love with another woman__engaged to her__on the point of marriage__would yet never ask that other woman to sit down to the instrument, if the lady in question could sit down instead__never seemed to like to hear one if he could hear the other. That I thought, in a man of known musical talent, was some proof."
"Proof indeed!" said Emma highly amused. "Mr. Dixon is very musical, is he?"
"Yes, Mr. Dixon and Miss Campbell were the persons; and I thought it very strong proof."
"Certainly, very strong it was; to own the truth, a great deal stronger than, if I had been Miss Campbell, would have been at all agreeable to me. I could not excuse a man's having more music than love__more ear than eye__a more acute sensibility to fine sounds that to my feelings. How did Miss Campbell appear to like it?"
"It was her very particular friend, you know."
"Poor comfort!" said Emma, laughing. "One would rather have a stranger preferred that one's very particular friend; with a stranger it might not recur again, but the misery of have a very particular friend always at hand, to do everything better than one does one's self. Poor Mrs. Dixon! Well, I am glad she is gone to settle in Ireland."
"You are right. It was not very flattering to Miss Campbell; but she really did not seem to feel it."
"So much the better, or so much the worse; I do not know which. But be it sweetness, or be it stupidity in her__quickness of friendship, or dullness of feeling__there was one person, I think, who must have felt it__Miss Fairfax herself. She must have felt the improper and dangerous distinction."
Emma is really calling out Miss Fairfax here, then goes on to tell Mr. Frank Churchill, how they were not close as friends, because of Jane being reserved. His remark surprised me:
"It is a most repulsive quality indeed," said he." "Oftentimes very convenient, no doubt, but never pleasing. There is safety in reserve, but no attraction. One cannot love a reserved person."
Emma and Frank agree:
"such extreme and perpetual cautiousness of word and manner, such a dread of giving a distinct idea about anybody, is apt to suggest suspicions of their being something to conceal."
Well, here we have Frank Churchill, and Emma, forming the same opinion of Miss Fairfax's actions and reservedness. I suspected there was more to Jane, than meets the eye.
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" I suspected there was more to Jane, than meets the eye." Hmmm.
Do you agree with Emma that there is something funny between her and Mr. Dixon?
We haven't answered the question of why Both Mr. Knightly and Emma formed such strong opinions of frank Churchill BEFORE they met him.
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Bellamarie's quote gives us more insight into why Emma doesn't like Jane Fairfax:
but the misery of have a very particular friend always at hand, to do everything better than one does one's self.
She doesn't like anyone to outshine her.
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Going by what Mr. Frank Churchill has revealed, Jane did not act considerate of Miss Campbell's feelings, and Mr. Dixon, was also insensitive, to the woman he was engaged to. They decided to move to Ireland, and Jane is sent to live in Highbury, with the aunts and grandmother. That seems drastic to me. There has to be more to learn, about the reserved Jane.
Mr. Knightley seems to have formed his negative opinions of Mr. Churchill, due to the fact it has taken him so long, to come to visit his father. He seems to think it was something he was choosing to stay behind for, rather than his adopted parents needing him. He pointed this out to Emma earlier, before Mr. Churchill came. He felt Mr. Churchill, not coming sooner, after his father Mr. Weston married Mrs. Weston, was a flaw in his character, a weakness, or something that he was not willing to reveal keeping him back.
Once again, Mr. Knightley is a person's judge, and moral compass. What is it about him, that he can not seem to stop himself, from expressing his disapproval of people? Does he have that good of instincts, where people are concerned, or does he know things and forms his judgements by the things he learns of them?
Emma had no prior knowledge of Mr. Frank Churchill, and she seemed to be basing her favorable opinions, due to the fact he is Mr. Weston's son. She is assuming, Mrs. Weston will be treated well by Mr. Churchill. Emma likes Mr. Weston, she knows he makes Mrs. Weston happy, so she is presuming, the son will be much like the father.
PatH., Yes, I think Emma admits her jealousy of Jane, but she also says why.
pg. 456 " I have known her from a child, undoubtedly; we have been children and women together; and it is natural to suppose that we should be intimate__that we should have taken to each other whenever she visited her friends. But we never did. I hardly know how it has happened; a little, perhaps, from that wickedness on my side which was prone to take disgust towards a girl so idolised and so cried up as she always was, by her aunt and grandmother, and all their set. And, then, her reserve! I never could attach myself to anyone so completely reserved."
Do you suppose the fact it is an aunt and grandmother, female relatives, doting on and on about Jane, that made Emma disgusted with Jane? Emma does not have a mother to sing her praises. Yes, her father does it plenty, and Mrs. Weston dotes on her, but it makes me wonder if Emma wanted something more of a female, mother figure, as Jane has. And she does point out she does not like reservedness. I had to giggle, when Emma admits, "that wickedness on my side" Emma is not afraid to take accountability for her actions, good or bad. She sees her own faults, flaws and weaknesses.
I think I would tire hearing the constant praises of perfection that is being said, and read after a while as well. ::) :-[
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I did not take that this comment by Emma "from that wickedness on my side which was prone to take disgust towards a girl so idolized and so cried up as she always was, by her aunt and grandmother, and all their set." was meant as Emma feeling envious but rather acknowledging the Aunt and Grandmother were pulling on Jane to help them more than she is even able - I am remembering how the Aunt let Jane know that her hat or purse or some part of her clothing she wore during a visit when she was still at the Campbell's, do not remember the exact article of clothing but to the Aunt it was more valuable than their ability to feed themselves.
"Cried up" to me means they were what we would call yammering or 'oh you wonderful child look at pitiful me' rather than, it being a positive acclaim and admiration for Jane. Sort of admiration with strings attached that would make our skins crawl and Jane had no choice but to put up with it.
My take is that part of the reason Emma does not admire Jane as a close friend is that Emma is not able to get the "juice" on Jane since she is so reserved and Emma would have preferred Jane to be a more lighthearted girl free with gossip when she was living with the Campbell's
I do not think Emma has the ability to get into the skins of other people and so her compassion gene is not developed.
I am also seeing Mr. Knightley with an ego problem - he is the richest and therefore, most powerful in the area and it appears he wants his deference paid as if he is the king and he knows it and wants everyone to acknowledge it. He chaffs from visits that he thinks should be more timely to the bit where he was trumped by Miss Bates and Miss Fairfax as they quickly shared, without any of Mr. Knightley's build up that Mr. Elton was getting married and then had to get his deference with a smile exchange with Emma letting her know that was 'his' news so much so a skit arises as to how he knew and he can trump them as he shares his inside contact. Why?!? Anyone with confidence would simply let the whole thing pass unless later Emma questioned him, asking what was his news, and then he could have shared it was his news.
Reading all this and in my head are two children's rhymes
One a penny two a penny hot cross buns as girls and men are being discussed like choosing produce or baked goods in the market - and the other rhyme is Mary, Mary, quite contrary,
How does your garden grow? With silver bells, and cockle shells, And pretty maids all in a row. as all the pretty maids are on show for the highest bidder.
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I felt when the Aunts came in and told the news of Mr. Elton getting engaged, before Mr. Knightley could get it out, was hilarious!!! Mr. Knightley was all puffed up, and ready to lay it on Emma, knowing she had attempted the matchmaking between Mr. Elton and Harriet, and failed miserably at it. Just one more attempt for him to act all high and mighty, and know it all. They took the fun out of his calculated plot. That brought me such laughter. :D :D :D
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BARB:Mr. Knightly "wants his deference paid as if he is the king and he knows it and wants everyone to acknowledge it."
BELLAMARIE:" Just one more attempt for him to act all high and mighty, and know it all."
He certainly isn't winning any popularity contests. what do the rest of you think?
we shall see in the next section that Emma is also jealous of her social position. Like Mary, in Downton Abbey, she has position and knows it.
what do the rest of you think?
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Oooops. I posted that we'd read through Part II, chapter 14 when I meant Chapter 13. That's 65 pages. Seems to bw enough for one gulp.
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Gulp.
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WOW! These next chapters are certainly revealing of many characters. Where do we begin?
So much fuss over Frank Churchill going to London, to get a haircut.
pg. 458 "There was certainly no harm in his traveling sixteen miles twice over on such an errand; but there was an air of foppery and nonsense in it which she could not approve. It did not accord with the rationality of plan, the moderation in expense, or even unselfish warmth of heart, which she had believed herself to discern in him yesterday. Vanity, extravagance, love of change, restlessness of temper, which must be doing something, good or bad; heedlessness as to the pleasure of his father and Mrs. Weston, indifferent as to how his conduct might appear in general__he became liable to all these charges."
His father only called him a coxcomb...(cox·combˈkäksˌkōm/Submit noun 1. a vain and conceited man; a dandy.)
Mrs. Weston did not like it was clear enough by her passing it over as quickly as possible, and making no comment than that "all young people would have their little whims."
Mr. Knightley says to himself..."Hum! just the trifling, silly fellow I took him for."
p.461-462 (Frank Churchill) He came back, had had his hair cut, and laughed at himself with a very good grace, but without seeming really at all ashamed of what he had done.
(Emma), "I do not know whether it ought to be so, but certainly silly things do cease to be silly if they are done by sensible people in an impudent way. Wickedness is always wickedness, but folly is not always folly. It depends upon the character of those who handle it. Mr. Knightley, he is not a trifling, silly young man. If he were, he would have done it differently. He would either have gloried in the achievement, or been ashamed of it. There would have been either the ostentation of a coxcomb, or the evasions of a mind too weak to defend its own vanities. No, I am perfectly sure that he is not a trifling or silly."
I was laughing so much in all of this commotion, about a haircut in London. Emma, sure does not want to see Frank as a coxcomb, trifling or silly young man. Is it because it is Mr. Knightley who is criticizing Frank, or is it because she does not want to see Frank as such, or a bit of each.
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I gave up on 'Emma', early on. I just do not care for Jane Auston's writing.
Has the next book been selected? Does anyone know what it I=will be?
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Glad you popped in to update us Sally - I loved the way chapter 7 ended - how lovely as they each father and daughter showed real caring for each other and for the feelings of others - just lovely.
The whole business about the haircut - hmm and that is all he accomplished in London?!? - Hmm knowing at the time in history there were at least 2 ladies of the night for every male in all of Britain - ah so he gives grit to the locals twitter about what they observe - it is not like Frank Churchill is even a local - their gossip sure has no concept of live and let live does it...ah so...!
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Hmm knowing at the time in history there were at least 2 ladies of the night for every male in all of Britain
There's something wrong with that figure; it must be some much smaller subset of males. Given that there were many, many respectably married women, and that the population would have started out about 50/50 men and women, there would have to have been a huge number of imported women, roughly equal to a third of the population, and that certainly wasn't the case.
If that was one of Churchill's motives for going to London, Austen will probably be too delicate to tell us.
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Hmmm. Some sort of ulterior motive? Of course, if it were women, Austen wouldn't even hint at it.
Well, we can be sure he looks nice, anyway.
SHEILA: the next book hasn't been selected. When it is, you'll see it in the ads up top. Sorry you didn't enjoy Austen.
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There is something about Frank that enjoys gossiping with Emma a little too much. He seems more of a feminine personality versus manly. I can't even begin to imagine Frank going for a "lady of the night."
pg. 466 "Perhaps you may now begin to regret that you spent on whole day, out of so few, in having your hair cut."
"No." said he smiling, "that is no subject of regret at all, I have no pleasure in seeing my friends, unless I can believe myself fit to be seen."
she saw Frank Churchill looking intently across the room at Miss Fairfax, who was sitting exactly opposite. "What is the matter?" said she.
He started. Thank you for rousing me," he replied. "I believe I have been very rude; but really Miss Fairfax has done her hair in so odd a way__so very odd a way__that I cannot keep my from her. I never saw anything so outre'! I must go and ask her whether it is an Irish fashion. Shall I? Yes, I will__I declare I will; and you shall see how she take it__whether she colours."
Frank then goes and stands, exactly in front of Miss Fairfax, she could absolutely distinguish nothing.
What is it about Frank, that has me so suspicious of him, especially where Jane Fairfax is concerned? It is almost like he knows Emma does not care for her, so he keeps talking in a bit of a negative way about Jane, to Emma, yet I feel there is more there than meets the eye. Why mention her hair could be "Irish?" He sure seems all about haircuts and hair styles!
He knows more than he is telling, yet he keeps Emma, guessing and speculating things about Jane. He is like Hansel and Gretel, he drops the breadcrumbs for Emma, so she will pick them up and continue her curiosity of Jane. Is he doing this on purpose, or can he just not stop himself? It's as if he wants Emma to let her defenses down, and to come to conclusions he is leading her to.
Maybe this is what Mr. Knightley meant when he said, "Hum! just the trifling, silly fellow I took him for."
I like Frank, but there is something that is not setting right with me about him.
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PatH it was part of the story of The French Lieutenants Woman that is based on history - I'm not making this up. No telling how Frank Churchill used his time and yes, a by the way arrangement would not be included in the writings of Jane Austen however, the reality of fun on the side is amusing and probably very real. John Fowles writing, as he did in the mid twentieth century could be more historically accurate however, Jane Austen was no Daniel Defoe either who wrote of Moll Flanders.
Yes, after reading the next chapter I agree Bellamaire - I like Frank, but there is something that is not setting right with me about him.
There seems to be in Emma's mind a triad between the Piano, Frank Churchill and Mr. Knightly - with Mr. Knightly not dancing with Jane that leaves Frank Churchill as a possible suitor. Since he kept his body between Jane and Emma when they talked and then sang with her accompaniment even when Mr. Knightly quit and then, the almost teasing conversation between Frank and Emma as to the magnanimous gift of the pianoforte I am thinking there is more to Frank Churchill's attention to Jane Fairfax.
Since we are hearing of these events through Emma's eyes and the set up of her being solicitous of her father's welfare when she attended the Cole's evening dinner party sets her up as the kind, wide eyed innocent whose only amusement in life appears to be to figure out the intentions of those in her acquaintance and to take cue's from their dress, mannerism and how well they live to their station in life, the story of all these characters unfolds at the speed of her awareness.
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Does Frank Churchill's welfare depend solely on the largesse of the Churchills? Will he inherit even though he is adopted? Is money the reason Mrs. Churchill has such an influence on him? Is there an age when he can declare his independence or will he always be under the thumb of Mrs. Churchill? I, too, agree that there is something a little off putting about Frank Churchill. Does he too want Emma's money?
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That is an interesting point Halcyon. Does Frank want Emma's money, status, family estate? He sure took a huge liking to everything on that first walk. He says ALL the right things, seems so likeable, has all the perfect manners, and is careful to only gossip with Emma when they are out of earshot distance of others. He seems to want to keep Emma disliking Jane for some reason, although when he stands in front of Jane so Emma can not see her if she colours, it makes me think he did not go over for the excuse he said.
The next day, Emma and Harriet are shopping and she notices Mrs. Weston and Frank Churchill ready to enter the Bates's home. Once they see Emma, for some reason Frank tries to act like he was not really interested in the visit and says Mrs. Weston promised Mrs. Bates last night they would stop in. Mrs. Weston does not recall her saying that.
The whole thing about Frank planting the idea Mr. Campbell sent Jane the piano, and his favorite music, so it was sent out of love is something else suspicious. But when Jane plays the waltz music Frank remembers they danced to in Weymouth he seems pleased, yet she coloured when he mentions it. What is going on with him and Jane?
pg. 476 (Frank) he went to the pianoforte, and begged Miss Fairfax, who was still sitting at it, to play some more. "If you are very kind," said he, "it will be one of the waltzes we danced last night; let me live them over again. You did not enjoy them as I did; you appeared tired the whole time. I believe you were glad we danced no longer; but I would have given worlds__all the worlds one ever has to give__ for another half-hour."
She played.
"What felicity it is to hear a tune again which has made one happy! If I mistake not, that was danced at Weymouth."
She looked up at him for a moment, coloured deeply, and played something else.
Frank then takes the music and shows it to Emma and says,
"She is playing 'Robin Adair' at this moment his (Mr. Campbell's) favourite."
I don't recall Austen telling us Frank and Jane danced last night, and he professes he did not want it to end!
Frank seems to be a bit jealous, thinking not only did Mr. Campbell send Jane the pianoforte, be also sent his favorite music for her to play.
I'm smelling a fox in the henhouse here. Hmmmmm...... Is he playing Emma as a decoy? She is vulnerable and ripe for pickins, since she is suspicious of Jane, and has not liked Jane's reservedness.
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Halcyon: Frank is indeed Mrs. Churchill's heir. they may have adopted him because they had no son She is very demanding, and he must do what she wants for fear of being disinherited.
What do you think of Knightly's argument that a man of principle would have insisted on visiting his father over her objection, and would have been respected for it? Or is Emma right, that he simply couldn't have risked it?
I can't help wondering, since frank's situation is based on that of Austen's own brother, whether that argument reflects what was going on in her family.
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But if you recall, Frank makes the statement he can get Mrs. Churchill to do whatever he wants. So, something tells me Frank did NOT stay until Mrs. Churchill gave him her permission. So what or who kept him from coming. Is it a coincidence he came after Jane Fairfax came?
pg. 466 She saw that Enscombe could not satisfy, and Highbury, taken at its best, might reasonably please a young man who had more retirement at home than he liked. His importance at Enscombe was very evident. He did not boast, but it naturally betrayed itself, that he had persuaded his aunt where his uncle could do nothing, and on her laughing and noticing it, he owned that he believed (excepting one or two points) he could with time persuade her to anything. One of the points on which his influence failed he then mentioned. He had wanted very much to go abroad__had been very eager indeed to be allowed to travel__but she would not hear of it. This had happened the year before, Now, he said, he was beginning to have no longer the same wish.
The unpersuadable point, which he did not mention, Emma guessed to be good behaviour to his father.
Where abroad did he want to go and why? He keeps mentioning Ireland, a coincidence the Campbell's went to Ireland?
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"Where abroad did he want to go, and why?" It was common for gentlemen to finish their education by taking the "grand tour", an extended journey around the cultural and scenic attractions of Europe, and this is probably what Frank was thinking of.
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5. Is Emma falling in love with Frank Churchill? Is it possible not to know if you're in love or not?
Emma is playing with fire in her dealings with Frank Churchill. She is trying to attract him, make him fall in love with her, but not fall in love herself, and refuse him if he offers marriage. There are so many ways such behavior can end badly. If she succeeds, she will hurt him. If he's not interested, she's frustrated. And of course, she could miscalculate, and end up falling in love in spite of herself--not a bad result if he falls in love too.
Is she falling in love? I find it hard to say. For a bit she thinks she might be, then decides she isn't. It's certainly possible to fail to realize at first that you have fallen in love.
Have you noticed all the hints that the Westons are hoping to make a match between the two? People do that a lot in Austen's books--try to make matches between relatives and acquaintances--probably reflects behavior of the times. Sometimes it works in the books and sometimes it doesn't.
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I've never understood why a woman would want to play such a stupid game as making someone she didn't care for fall in love with her. It's just asking for trouble.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
March/April Book Club Online
Emma
by Jane Austen
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/emma/emmacvr.jpg) | "I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like” Jane Austen of Emma.
Will you like her, the heroine who Austen claimed was most like herself, and who inspired a movie called "Clueless"? If not, there's lots more to like in this classic novel of love, misdirection, and social class. |
Schedule
March 1-5 Part I: Chapters 1-7
March 6 - 12 Part I: Chapters 8-17
March 13 Part I: Chapter 18, Part II Chapter 1-6
March 19 Part II: Chapter 7-13
March 23 Part II: Chapters 14-18 Part III Chapters 1-4
QUESTIONS VOLUME II CHAPTERS 7-13
1. Does the fact that frank Churchill goes to London to get his hair cut change your opinion of him? Why or why not?
2. Why does Emma not want to go to the Coles? Do such class distinctions exist where you live? What is their basis? Why did her opinion of the Coles change when she got there?
3. Did Emma do wrong when she shared her suspicions of Jane Fairfax with Frank? What do you think of his efforts to tease Jane about them in chapter X?
4. Who do you think the piano came from? What do Jane's reactions while people are talking about it tell you?
5. Is Emma falling in love with Frank Churchill? Is it possible not to know if you're in love or not?
6. "A mind lively and at ease, can do with seeing nothing, and can see nothing that does not answer." Do you agree?
7. Harriet, tempted by everything and swayed by half a word, was always very long at a purchase." Have you ever gone shopping with a friend like that? How did it work out?
Text of Emma (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/158/158-h/158-h.htm)~~~ Emma review (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/nov/04/100-best-novels-jane-austen-emma) ~~~ Austen related books (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/jun/15/what-matters-in-jane-austen-review)~~~ Jane Austen biography (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/austejn/austen.html)
Discussion Leader: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Does anyone know if the Campbell's were Irish in England or English in Ireland - given their wealth I would say the latter however, their name suggests otherwise.
PatH I am thinking that if all a girl is measured on is her looks, mannerism and ability to entertain than the only arena she has to work in is attracting male attention - even if a girl or women at the time was well educated she had no acceptable career path - she was not engaged in politics or finance. The women who worked were weavers, milk maids, bar maids, servants in the big houses, governesses, ladies maids and all round servants in the smaller houses - its all domestic help - even weaving was done in homes. There was not even nurses yet in 1815 leaving girls with their only activity - attract a man - one is good but more is better just as men could be competitive excepting they had all sorts of avenues to measure their skills against another.
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I am thoroughly confused with all the characters in these chapters.
Emma loves spending time with Frank and he likewise. I guess I never saw it romantically, but I guess back in those times, if a girl and guy spent that much time with each other, danced at balls together and he visited as often as Frank Church does...........it was seen as a courtship. Mrs. Bates is just singing the praises of them being a perfect match.
Mr. Knightley and Jane seem to be getting paired together, Mrs. Weston has pretty much said it to Emma. Which of course Emma thinks is preposterous!
Frank Church seems to have something in secrecy with Jane, but I can't figure out what it is.
Now, that Frank has been called to come back home due to a (fake) ailing aunt, Emma is missing his company, and trying to discern her true feelings for him. She has never been in love, so now she is trying to decide if what she feels is being "in love," or is it not. She does seem a bit surprised at the feelings she is having since he left.
Mr. Knightley has gone out of his way to give the Bates his last apples, to make sure Jane has them. Jane in turn is upset with her aunt for even mentioning they were low on apples, and for accepting Mr. Knightley's last apples.
Apples, dances, pianoforte, music, visits, etc., all seem to indicate people having feelings for each other, yet no one has so much expressed these feelings. When Frank was about to express something to Emma, they were interrupted by Mr. Weston coming into the room. She assumes, Frank was going to profess his love for her. Why did I get the impression he was NOT going to profess his "love," for her?
When Frank writes to Mrs. Weston, he barely mentions Emma's name, but mentions Harriet. I truly am confused.
PatH., I've never understood why a woman would want to play such a stupid game as making someone she didn't care for fall in love with her. It's just asking for trouble.
I can't come to the conclusion Emma is indeed playing such a game. I feel she is as confused, as I am. She sure did react strongly at the very mention of Mr. Knightley, possibly being paired with Jane. Mrs. Weston seemed to enjoy bringing this up to Emma. I ask myself, why? Emma says she is not at all in favor of the match, due to little Henry's inheritance. Is that the only reason why?
Where have all our members gone? Have you all lost interest, or have you read ahead and fear commenting will give away spoilers? I could use some insight, to help me put these puzzles pieces together. Austen sure has my head in a spin.
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Good point, Barb. Maybe Emma is honing her skills on Frank--a learner fiance. ;)
The Campbells are not Irish. Their daughter has recently married Mr. Dixon, an Irish landowner, and they have gone to Ireland to visit the couple. (It's not clear whether Mr. Dixon is actually Irish or Anglo-Irish.)
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PatH. I love it...a learner fiancée. Like a starter house.
Bellamarie...you ask where everyone has gone? I, for one, am just as confused as you are. I would like to know what Frank was going to tell Emma. I agree that it seemed unlikely he was going to express his love. I wonder if the Weston's know anymore than they are letting on. Somehow I don't think so but with this bunch who would know. I hope Emma is just infatuated and not truly in love. At this point I cant see her with any of the characters we've met so far.
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Halcyon, I sure am glad to know I am not alone in my confusion.
I know Jane Austen likes last minute epiphanies, where couples finally come together in the end, but the book is pretty far in, and yet not one person has openly expressed their true feelings.
Emma is confused, which makes sense to a point, since she always thought she would never marry, except for "love," which she has never experienced. She is trying to understand her feelings she has for Frank after he has left, yet seems to conclude it is not "love," especially after she reads Frank's letters to Mrs. Weston and he does not barely even mention her.
If Frank were in love with Emma, wouldn't he be writing to Emma?
I still feel Emma and Mr. Knightley will end up together, especially since Austen made the mention that age is not such a factor, when Mrs. Weston was mentioning Mr. Knightley possibly having feelings for Jane. Jane and Emma have been childhood friends, so they are around the same age.
Ollie, Ollie, Oxen Free....come out, come out wherever you are!!! We need some help!
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I'm scared to help much, since I know the answers. I've read the book several times, the first one so long ago that I don't remember how much I figured out on my own before Austen told me--nothing near all of it, though. There are lots of clues, but many are subtle. I'm still learning new things this time through, some of them from you.
I can help with the background, though. Bellamarie brings up some important points.
I guess I never saw it romantically, but I guess back in those times, if a girl and guy spent that much time with each other, danced at balls together and he visited as often as Frank Church does...........it was seen as a courtship.
The rules of social interaction between unmarried men and women were rather rigid. You had to be very careful, or it would look like you were expressing a romantic interest in someone. Bella may remember that in Persuasion, one of the characters gets stuck with others thinking he is courting a woman, and he feels he would have to marry her if she wanted. Emma and Frank seem to look like they are on the footing of looking tentative, maybe starting to be interested.
If Frank were in love with Emma, wouldn't he be writing to Emma?
No, a single man couldn't write to an unrelated single young woman unless they were already engaged, or unless the letter contained a proposal of marriage.
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My, oh my. Can Jane Austen tell a story! I'm captivated. No, you're not alone, Bellamarie, in feeling confused. But then, as you say, Emma, too, is confused. And it only gets worse for her as it begins to make sense for the reader. I got impatient. I've read ahead. As far as I can see there are no spoilers. Only more insights into the art of matchmaking and falling in love.
This book has brought back the strangest memory from my younger days. Some of the girls and younger women were more knowledgeable than others in all things romantic and relational. Now it seems to me I could pick out the ones who had read their Jane Austens.
I'm only sorry I waited so long to read them. Marvellous stuff.
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Sorry I couldn't get on yesterday. Sorry also if you expect me to make things clear -- they just AREN'T clear at this stage. Nobody quite knows where they are or what they feel (well, maybe one does, but they aren't telling!). Austen's thrown her characters into a pot, and is stirring them around to make stew!
Are we ready to move on? Next week is crazy for me -- I'll be out Monday, and have out of town guests Wednesday through Saturday, but you don't really need me, and I'll be in as much as I can.
Let's start talking about the next bit Monday, when we meet the woman who Elton preferred over Harriet.. I'll post the chapters soon.
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BELLAMARIE: "all seem to indicate people having feelings for each other, yet no one has so much expressed these feelings."
These are upper class Englishmen and women, and you expect them to express their feelings? What are you thinking? Gentlemen/women don't DO THAT!
Seriously, it wouldn't be proper, for either men or women, to express their feelings short of a proposal. Even after they were engaged, they wouldn't do so in public. Even Elton's poem to Emma he expected her to keep private, and not show anyone.
JONATHAN: "Now it seems to me I could pick out the [WOMEN] ones who had read their Jane Austens."
That's hilarious!
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Thank you all so much for coming in and posting. Your posts have at least confirmed to me, I am not alone in my confusion. JoanK., I would never expect you to make things clear, I just needed some feedback, to know I'm not so far off base.
Austen's thrown her characters into a pot, and is stirring them around to make stew!
What a perfect metaphor, for these chapters!
Jonathan, I suspected you had read ahead, I was very tempted to, but refrained myself. I am so glad to hear you are back to seeing how marvellous Austen is. I like the analogy you used with knowing the girls who read Austen. My first time ever reading Jane Austen was when I was in my late fifties, believe it or not. Being an amateur writer myself, and hopeless romantic, I fell in love with her style immediately. I can actually see the same matchmaking back when I was in high school 1967-70, as happening here in the 1800s. Some things never change. Most of my matchmaking was successful, although I must say, the one and only time I allowed myself to be fixed up on a blind date, I did in fact fall for the guy, and experienced major hurt, and caused me to be cynical and untrusting for a very long time, before I met my wonderful hubby.
PatH., Thank you for the clarification, as to why it would be inappropriate for Frank to write to Emma. But he still hardly mentions her in the letters to Mrs. Weston, which leads me to believe he is not in love with Emma.
JoanK., I guess what I should have said, is Austen has not given any clarification as to the true feelings these characters have for each other. Thank you for reminding me, they could not express them openly, or to each other back then.
Yes, I am ready to move on, actually I can barely stand waiting to be able to read to see where this is all headed. I seriously could not read the words fast enough in these last chapters. I will wait for you to let us now which chapters to read.
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You're certainly safe in finishing volume II.
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Let's finish Volume II and red Volume III Chapters 1- 4 (66 pages.)
Will things get clearer, or only more muddled? Tune in.
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Am I going too slowly? Please tell me. And feel free to comment before you finish reading on what you've read.
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Thanks, JoanK. I should have a lazy Sunday, once I return all my grandkids, to their rightful parents after church. I can't wait to tackle the new chapters. Sleepovers are wonderful, but oh the next morning kicks me in my rear!!! :)
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I'm running a bit behind (just finished Chpt. 12), and am as confused as everyone else with all the characters. But I definitely agree with those of you who think the Westons are hoping for a match between Frank and Emma.
overhearing Mr. Weston whisper to his wife, "He has asked her, my dear. That's right. I knew he would!"
Austen, Jane (2012-05-16). Emma (p. 260). . Kindle Edition.
I'm not sure that I like Frank. His comments to Jane Fairfax, regarding the pianoforte and the Campbell family relations almost seemed to have a cruel streak, as if he were deliberately trying to embarrass her of make her feel uncomfortable.
"But she is so amusing, so extremely amusing! I am very fond of hearing Miss Bates talk. And I need not bring the whole family, you know."
And his comments about Miss Bates, as well, asessing her value on the "dance committee." Is he really sincere or is there a touch of sarcasm there?
Guess I'm siding with Mr. Knightley.
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Pedln, I too have my doubts where Frank is concerned. He has a reason for always gossiping with Emma, about Jane, in a negative way. He seems a bit jealous of the possibility of Mr. Campbell's affection for Jane.
Before I move on to the next chapters I want to point out the sweet words Emma expressed, about her friendship with Harriet.
Pg. 488. "There is no charm to tenderness of heart," said she afterwards to herself. "There is nothing to be compared to it. Warmth and tenderness of heart, with an affectionate, open manner, will beat all the clearness of head in the world, for attraction: I am sure it will. It is tenderness of heart which makes my dear father so generally beloved--which gives Isabella all her popularity. I have it not; but I know how to prize and respect it. Harriet is my superior in all the charm and all the felicity it gives. Dear Harriet! I would not change you for the clearest-headed, longest-sighted, best judging female breathing. Oh, the coldness of a Jane Fairfax! Harriet is worth a hundred such: and for a wife--a sensible man's wife--it is invaluable. I mention no names; but happy the man who changes Emma for Harriet!"
Emma sees Frank's mention of Harriet in his letter to mean he wants Harriet for his wife, and is happy for Harriet.
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Is anyone confused as to who the characters are? The COLES are neighbors, whose only function in the book is to give the dinner we read about, so don't worry too much about them. MRS. BATES and the talkative MISS BATES are grandmother and aunt to Jane Fairfax. The CAMPBELLS took Jane in to educate her, and Miss Campbell married MR. DIXON, and went to ireland. Emma's sister ISABELLA, and her husband, JOHN KNIGHTLY, give us comic relief. MRS. WESTON is Emma's old governess, who has married Frank's father, Mr. WESTON. MRS. CHURCHILL is the rich old lady, (Frank's mother's sister) who adopted him, changed his name to Frank Churchill, and expects him to dance attendance on her. Mr. Weston dislikes her for that and because she had been mean to Frank's mother.
The main characters are the would-be lovers. MR. MARTIN has been cast aside by HARRIET. Mr. ELTON has cast himself aside and gone off to marry someone else (we'll meet HER in this next section). This leaves Harriet with no one to love, and Emma with no matches to make. Don't think THAT will last very long.
Meanwhile, is EMMA in love with FRANK? is Frank in love with Emma? Is KNIGHTLY in love with JANE? Is Jane in love with Mr. Dixon? I warn you: Austen has a few more stirs of the pot before we find out. Some questions get answered in this new section, but more new question arise. Fun, fun, fun.
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Fun indeed!
I finally have one clarity, of who does not emphatically want to marry one certain lady, because as he states,
" She has not the open temper which a man would wish for in a wife."
A puzzle piece falling into place, as far as my suspicions are concerned!
Emma is wasting no time, confronting people in these next chapters.
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I'm beginning to think Bellamarie was right all the time. I'm liking Mr. Knightley more and more and Frank less and less. And the vicar's wife....very mean spirited. I thought I would find Jane Austen boring but, I must confess, I'm reading ahead.
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'Next week is crazy for me.' As Mr Woodhouse would say: 'Poor JoanK.' And we're all sorry, too. Reading about crazy is fun, but actually living it...good luck. Thanks for the perspective in your last post.
The same for the 'open temper' in a wife. I don't mind a little fight, in fact I enjoy it, but spare me the open temper. I run for cover. Haha.
Bellamarie, you ended the last section with the fine quote about the charm of the tender heart. Emma sees something missing in her own heart. What's the good of 'clearness of head' without 'tenderness of heart'? Here's a glimpse at the 'work in progress', as you pointed out a while ago.
We're in church as the next chapter begins. observing Mr Elton's new wife. Our devotions are interrupted while we look her over. How much can one tell about someone in church, the author wonders. Only the degree of prettiness. I beg to differ. Many love affairs have their beginning at devine services. For Emma a formal call at the vicarage will be more to the purpose in getting to know the new woman in their midst. Harriet goes along. I can't resist quoting the scene, and Emma's preoccupation:
'...and when she considered how peculiarly unlucky poor Mr Elton was in being in the same room at once with the woman he had just married, the woman he had wanted to marry, and the woman whom he had been expected to marry, she must allow him to have the right to look as little wise, and to be as much affectedly, and as little really easy as could be.'
It's a little disappointing that we don't get to know the text Mr Elton chose for his sermon earlier in church. Perhaps JA couldn't trust herself with choosing the right one. It was all too crazy.
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Reading ahead. It gets really crazy. SPOILER ALERT!!! Every thing turns out alright for poor Mr Woodhouse. He is the big winner.
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Thank you, Jonathan, for posting that quote. I had underlined it in my book, and placed a huge smiley face next to it. When I read it I couldn't help but laugh out loud, and think, coulda, woulda, shoulda. ::) ::) ::)
Halycon, Yes, I agree, the vicar's wife is mean spirited indeed! Mrs. Elton first attempts to befriend Emma, and when Emma does not reciprocate her invites to play music, the claws come out, and she does a turn about, and decides to be Jane's new best friend. Mr. E., deserves a wife like her. Karma came back around and bit him in the behind! Mrs. E., tends to remind me of the wicked witch in The Wizard of Oz. I'm not liking her at all. Emma may need to pour some water on her, to see if she melts away! :o :o
Thank you JoanK., for trying to help us all with the many characters. I was doing pretty good with keeping everyone straight, until the Coles were mentioned, and then I had to pause, and put them in the cast again. Phew...there sure are plenty to keep up with.
Me thinks, Mrs. Weston has been toying with Emma, where Mr. Knightley being smitten with Jane was concerned. Mrs. Weston knows how quickly Emma reacts when she even so much as mentions, the possibility of Mr. Knightley caring for Jane.
It reminds me of a quote from the 1602 play Hamlet by William Shakespear, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
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Jonathan and Bellamarie, I had to laugh out loud at that quote too. Formal visits had specific time limits, and the first visit to a new bride was supposed to be 15 minutes. I'm betting Mr. Elton was glad he didn't have to suffer for long.
Mrs. Elton is really a pain. You get very tired of hearing all about Selina, and Maple Grove, and the barouche-landau, and the things that she and Selina have "a horror of". It's really bragging to keep bringing up the barouche-landau, as it was a particularly expensive and luxurious carriage.
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JONATHAN: "It's a little disappointing that we don't get to know the text Mr Elton chose for his sermon earlier in church."
I really laughed at that one. can anyone think of a really good text for him?
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Here is the barouche -landau, the Mercedes Benz of it's day:
https://www.google.com/search?q=barouche-landau&biw=853&bih=570&tbm=isch&imgil=99a9Ix6NIWR0HM%253A%253BNgpnIMb17u14MM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.regrom.com%25252F2014%25252F04%25252F10%25252Fregency-fashion-carriages-coaches-and-the-barouche%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=99a9Ix6NIWR0HM%253A%252CNgpnIMb17u14MM%252C_&usg=__U2mRheoAoLVojLY0XJABHRwUWVg%3D&ved=0CCcQyjc&ei=CYsQVeOHE4GeyATP1YDwDA#imgrc=99a9Ix6NIWR0HM%253A%3BNgpnIMb17u14MM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fborides.pbworks.com%252Ff%252Fbarouche.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.regrom.com%252F2014%252F04%252F10%252Fregency-fashion-carriages-coaches-and-the-barouche%252F%3B545%3B286
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There is method to Mrs. Elton mentioning "Maplethorpe" so often too. The Coxes and Mrs. Elton are social climbers. They want to be accepted by the "upper class." The British upper class was the landed gentry, who lived on landed estates an money from their tenant farmers. They felt superior to anyone who was "in trade." As the Coxes were. My annotated Emma explains the steps that anyone "in trade had to take to enter the upper class. They had to get enough money to buy a landed estate, and sever their ties with trade: become landed gentry themselves.
The Coxes aren't quite there. they have a big house, but since it doesn't have a name, we know it's not an estate yet. Mrs. Elton wants everyone to know that her brother-in-law, Mr. Suckling, had taken that step and has an estate with a name, Maplethorpe (and fancy furnishings).
She's too stupid to realize that there's one more step she needs to take: to learn the manners appropriate to the class she wants to enter. Those of you who watch Downton Abbey on TV may remember that Mary, when marrying Mathew was first broached said "You want me to marry someone who doesn't know how to use a fork properly?" Downton Abbey takes place 100 years after Emma, but a lot hasn't changed.
Mrs. E's manners are the opposite of what they should be: good manners include never bragging about possessions or status, and showing proper respect to everyone. The Coxes have learned that, and so are more accepted. But Mrs. E is a textbook on what not to do.
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Between Miss Bates rattling on, to no end about anything and everything, and Mrs. Elton rattling on about Maple Grove and all her vanity, I do declare, I need an aspirin.
JoanK., you are so right about, "Mrs. E. is a textbook on what not to do." Thank you for the pic link. Fancy Shmancy carriage! She sure mentioned it enough times.
Hmmm....a text for Mr. E.'s sermon....how about:
The craving for wealth and possessions can lead us into all kinds of temptation.
Do not wear yourself out to get rich; have the wisdom to show restraint. Cast but a glance at riches, and they are gone, for they will surely sprout wings and fly off to the sky like an eagle. (NIV, Proverbs 23:4-5)
What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? (NIV, Matthew 16:26)
Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. (TNIV, 1 Timothy 6:9-11, emphasis added)
Pierced themselves with many griefs....well being married to Mrs. E., is one grief too many.
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I'm impressed by how hard Mrs. Elton tries to win the hearts and minds of the better folk in Highbury. Not always in an elegant fashion, but who could totally win the affection of Emma on the first try. Augusta wants to fit in. What is it about Emma that makes her so critical. Of course we were told on page one that, 'The real evils indeed of Emma's situation were the power of having rather too much her own way, and the dispositon to think a little too well of herself.'
Even the author is intimidated. Whose voice are we hearing when we get the awful picture of Mrs Elton. I get the feeling that Emma told the author what to write.
'Insufferable woman!' 'Worse than I had supposed. Absolutely insufferable!' 'A little upstart, vulgar being...all her airs of pert pretension and under-bred finery.' '...and the quarter of an hour convinced Emma that Mrs Elton was a vain woman, extemely well satisfied with herself, and thinking much of her own importance; that she meant to shine and be very superior, but with manners which had been formed in a bad school,, pert and familiar; that all her notions were drawn from one set of people, and one style of living; that if not foolish she was ignorant, and that her society would certainly do Mr Elton no good.'
And this is the girl who so desperately needed a friend after Miss Taylor went off and got married to Mr Weston. Except for Harriet she rejects everyone. Emma's estimation of Mrs Elton reflects more on herself than someone other.
Bellamarie, very imaginative texts for a vicar's sermon. Now that he has the girl with twenty thousand, he can preach about the evils of being rich. How long will it be, do you think, before the Eltons have their very own barouche-landau? Highbury has got itself a new queen. What's to become of Emma?
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I see Emma as a very intuitive person. She picks up on Mrs. E., trying so hard to fit in, and yes, act superior. If you notice, she and Mr. Knightley share similar thoughts. He may criticize Emma for speaking her thoughts, yet he sits back thinking them without speaking them aloud. I am but certain, our author, Jane Austen came across many a Mrs. Eltons in her lifetime. Haven't we all?
I had to laugh out loud reading this!
Jonathan, Highbury has got itself a new queen. What's to become of Emma?
Have no fear, there is already the thought/talk of Emma marrying. Once Emma and Mr. Knightley finally find their way to one another and marry....Ooops there goes Mrs. Elton's place on the throne, maybe she and Mr. E., can ride off into the sunset to Maple Grove in their barouche-landau,she is so impressed to own. :)
Emma does not need to have many friends. She is happy with having a true friend, in Harriet. Most girls/women have but one very close, true, confidante as a friend. Others become merely acquaintances we call friends, that are included in different activities. Jane Austen got this right, from my perspective.
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All of a sudden a flash last night - Reverend Elton hmm - seen as pompous and reads like he is an all round bore and then a backstory hit me - from our reading other Austen books we learned, I think it was when we read Sense and Sensibility that when the father's estate is passed on it goes to the eldest son and that a younger son either joins the army and hopefully rises in the ranks where he is given more of the spoils after a winning battle that furthers his wealth and standing although, never to the wealth and standing of the oldest brother or, a younger son finds 'a living' as a Vicar. As a Vicar he can procure the patronage of a wealthy family or, usually an elderly widow, as well as, raise himself in the ranks to a Bishop - what that financial structure is I do not know. My guess is they get a percent of all the donations from all the parish churches. They may not be called parishes but do not know what the subdivision of areas with a vicarage is called.
Now I am imagining growing up as a small boy into manhood knowing your older brother is set for life surrounded by the accouterments of wealth and the inheritance includes continuing to live in the comfort of the home they grew up in, where as, a second or third son I can only imagine you would feel less worthy, as Edward Ferrars is punished by being denied his inheritance and cast out to make 'a living'.
Granted (ha not Hugh Grant but a word too close ;) ) anyhow Edward Ferrars or Hugh Grant is not feeling the need to be pompous in an effort to build his own self-importance since he did it to get the girl and he does, where as, Mr. Elton had to grow up his entire life attempting to feel as worthy as an older brother that we do not hear about in this story but given the strict social hierarchy you know there had to be an older brother - and so, where he is still a bore with self-serving habits I feel sorry for the poor guy. Heck even his choice of a mate is limited since the deal is the girls are all out for the best catch which means wealth and position. He was not even born with the looks that woman would throw themselves at his feet with hopes of marriage.
I wonder if we change the costumes and bring this story into the 21st century if this is a tale of cooperate acquisition.
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Yes, Barb, as you recall in the story of, Wives and Daughters, by Elizabeth Gaskell that took place in the 1860s, the older son Osborne went off to college to be educated to take over the Hamley estate when need be, and the younger son Roger was less educated, expected to be a vicar. Osborne squandered family money on a hidden wife. Mrs. Gibson tries unsuccessfully to arrange a marriage between Cynthia and Osborne, as her aspirations include having a daughter married to landed gentry. Osborne has a son, by a young Aimee a Catholic, the family had no idea of. Little Osborne is to be the heir of the Hamley estate, since his father Osborne, the eldest son dies. If Osborne had died with no son, then Roger the younger son would have been heir.
Anyone watching Downton Abbey, also knows that Matthew Crawley was a distant cousin, and was to be heir to the Crawley estate because Robert Crawley Earl of Grantham had no sons. Matthew dies on the day his son is born, and he will become the heir to Grantham/Downton Abbey.
Women were passed over. So I suppose Mrs. E., boasting in all her glory being married to Mr. Elton, feels she has rightly moved up a notch or two in Highbury. I don't want to sound insensitive, but I do not have any sympathy or sorrow for Mr. E., if anything he married the first woman who would have him, after Emma rejects him. He had ill motives for wanting Emma, so it seems karma came around to him with Augusta for a wife. Perfect match, if I do say so.
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BELLAMARIE: I love your texts! I'd love to see Mr. E trying to preach to them with a straight face (or maybe he has so little self - awareness that he could do it.
Yes, BARB, I can see Mr. Elton as a younger son, trying to match a brother in importance and style.
JONATHAN: yes, there's no getting around it: Emma is a snob. This may be the next lesson she had to learn. In her defense, Mrs. E. IS hard to take with her bragging, and trying to take over everyone's life. And the E's are nasty, as we'll see.
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It's fascinating to me that Downton Abbey is set a full century after Emma, yet I keep thinking of parallels in the customs, manners, and values. Do you think that would be true of a story set in the US?
The other thing that strikes me is how much Austen makes fun of everyday conversation, and it's tediousness. I picture her sitting in her little closed world dying to meet someone who has interesting things to say. (If it wasn't for Seniorlearn, that could be me.)
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'Mrs. E. IS hard to take with her bragging, and trying to take over everyone's life.'
'Emma does not need to have many friends. She is happy with having a true friend, in Harriet.'
'I wonder if we change the costumes and bring this story into the 21st century if this is a tale of cooperate acquisition.'
'And the vicar's wife....very mean spirited.'
'Mrs. Elton is really a pain.'
Only on Seniorlearn. I'm sorry folks, but I'm not going to let Emma decided whom I should like or dislike. I don't like her wild intuitions. I don't think she's intuitive at all. Far too calculating for that. She's a wonderful character, and I hope her Karma doesn't catch up with her before she comes to her senses. Does anyone here think they would want her as a friend, or even if they could be a friend to her? Poor, witless Harriet is not her friend, nor is Emma a friend to her. Or, as they say: with a friend like that, who needs an enemy. No doubt Emma thinks she is helping Harriet, and that's the way Emma sees herself. Just helping those she chooses.
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Oh God I just realized with Jonathan's questions, I have a real life friend like Emma - I do not see a Mr. Knightly in her future though - shoot - lordy now that I realize an adjustment is needed - I kinda like Harriet as a role model assuming she is just playing along.
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Oh dear, I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, Jonathan. I would want to be friends with Emma. I could never deal with someone reserved like Jane, who I suspect holds secrets. And I certainly would want nothing to do with gabby, boastful Mrs. E., always needing a compliment.
How many mea culpas does Emma have to confess, for you to see she was genuinely sorry for the situation she caused with Harriet and Mr. Elton. She has vowed to not matchmake any more, and so far has kept her promise. Emma is a true friend to Harriet, and Mrs. E., has decided to make Harriet her target, since Emma has not accepted her invitation to play music.
pg. 494 In one respect Mrs. Elton grew even worse than she had appeared at first. Her feelings altered towards Emma. Offended, probably, by the little encouragement which her proposals of intimacy met with, she drew back, in her turn, and gradually became much more cold and distant; and though the effect was agreeable, the ill will which produced it was necessarily increasing Emma's dislike. Her manners, too__and Mr. Elton's __were unpleasant towards Harriet. They were sneering and negligent. Emma hoped it must rapidly work Harriet's cure; but the sensations which could prompt such behaviour sunk them both very much. It was not to be doubted poor Harriet's attachment had been an offering to conjugal unreserve, and her own share in the story, under colouring the least favorable to her, and the most soothing to him, had in all likelihood been given also. So was, of course, the object of their joint dislike. When they had nothing else to say, it must be always easy to being abusing Miss Woodhouse; and the enmity which they dared not show in open disrespect to her found a broader vent in contemptuous treatment of Harriet.
Emma feels bad because Harriet has not had anyone ask her to dance. Mrs. Weston tried to prompt Mr. Elton to ask Emma to dance and he refused. I can't even imagine WHY Mrs. Weston would ever consider it a good idea for Mr. Elton to ask Harriet to dance. Does she have no knowledge of all that transpired? Emma is mortified to see Mr. Elton be so blatantly disrespectful to Mrs. Weston. Emma cares very much for Harriet's feelings.
pg. 516 In another moment a happier sight caught her eye__Mr. Knightley leading Harriet to the set! Never had she been more surprised, seldom more delighted, that at that instant. She was all pleasure and gratitude, both for Harriet and herself, and longed to be thanking him; and though too distant for speech, her countenance said much, as soon as she could catch his eye again.
Even Frank does not like Mrs. Elton: pg. 514
"How do you like Mrs. Elton?" said Emma in a whisper.
"Not at all."
"You are ungrateful."
"Ungrateful! What do you mean?" Then changing from a frown to a smile, "No, do not tell me, I do not want to know what you mean. Where is my father? When are we to begin dancing?"
As we read on, Jane even gets infuriated with Mrs. E., butting into her business about getting a governess job.
I just do not see Emma as a snob. She truly does not like Mrs. Elton, and I can't say as I blame her. I am not allowing Emma to choose for me, who I will like in the story. If Emma were not even a character in the book, and all the characters were, I still would NOT like Mrs. Elton. She is very mean spirited, self centered, boastful, domineering, annoying and down right difficult to be in the same room with.
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BELLAMARIE: "Does she [Mrs. Weston] have no knowledge of all that transpired?"
we have to assume that she doesn't know. I don't imagine Emma would have been in a hurry to tell her.
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I'll have guests for the rest of the week (PatH's daughters and grandchildren) sleeping in the room where the computer is (yes, I'm a dinosaur and don't have a laptop or I-phone. but I'll get in when I can, and PatH will keep me up-to-date.
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JoanK., You may be right about Emma not telling Mrs. Weston. She would not want to divulge all that happened, especially how Mr. E. Made advances toward her. But, if a man is newly married, why would Mrs. Weston encourage him to dance with a single girl?
" Miss Smith__Oh! I had not observed. You are extremely obling__and if I were not an old married__but my dancing days are over, Mrs. Weston. You will excuse me. Anything else I should be most happy to do, at your command__but my dancing days are over."
But oh my, look who's dancing days seem to have begun! First Mr. Knightley, is a gentleman and asks Harriet to dance, and now he and Emma have a first dance together.
"Come, Emma, set your companions the example. Everybody is lazy! Everybody is asleep!"
"I am ready," said Emma, "whenever I am wanted."
"Whom are you going to dance with?" Asked Mr. Knightley.
She hesitated a moment, and replied, "With you if you will ask me."
"Will you?" Said he, offering his hand.
"Indeed I will. You have shown that you can dance, and you know we are not really so much brother and sister as to make it improper."
"Brother and sister! No, indeed."
This little expression with Mr. Knightley gave Emma considerable pleasure. It was one of the agreeable recollections of the ball, which she walked about the lawn the next morning to enjoy. She was extremely glad that they had come to so good an understanding respecting the Elton's, and that their opinions of both husband and wife were so much alike; and his praise of Harriet, his concession in her favor, was peculiarly gratifying.
All seems to be going right for Emma, Harriet, and Mr. Knightley.
Harriet rational, Frank Churchill not too much in love, and Mr. Knightley not wanting to quarrel with her, how very happy a summer must be for her.
Hmmmmmm.....what can go wrong now?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
March/April Book Club Online
Emma
by Jane Austen
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/emma/emmacvr.jpg) | "I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like” Jane Austen of Emma.
Will you like her, the heroine who Austen claimed was most like herself, and who inspired a movie called "Clueless"? If not, there's lots more to like in this classic novel of love, misdirection, and social class. |
Schedule
March 1-5 Part I: Chapters 1-7
March 6 - 12 Part I: Chapters 8-17
March 13 Part I: Chapter 18, Part II Chapter 1-6
March 19 Part II: Chapter 7-13
March 23 Part II: Chapters 14-18 Part III Chapters 1-4
March 27 Part III: Chapter 5-9
QUESTIONS VOLUME II CHAPTERS 7-13
1. Does the fact that frank Churchill goes to London to get his hair cut change your opinion of him? Why or why not?
2. Why does Emma not want to go to the Coles? Do such class distinctions exist where you live? What is their basis? Why did her opinion of the Coles change when she got there?
3. Did Emma do wrong when she shared her suspicions of Jane Fairfax with Frank? What do you think of his efforts to tease Jane about them in chapter X?
4. Who do you think the piano came from? What do Jane's reactions while people are talking about it tell you?
5. Is Emma falling in love with Frank Churchill? Is it possible not to know if you're in love or not?
6. "A mind lively and at ease, can do with seeing nothing, and can see nothing that does not answer." Do you agree?
7. Harriet, tempted by everything and swayed by half a word, was always very long at a purchase." Have you ever gone shopping with a friend like that? How did it work out?
Text of Emma (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/158/158-h/158-h.htm)~~~ Emma review (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/nov/04/100-best-novels-jane-austen-emma) ~~~ Austen related books (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/jun/15/what-matters-in-jane-austen-review)~~~ Jane Austen biography (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/austejn/austen.html)
Discussion Leader: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Hmmmmmm.....what can go wrong now?
You know perfectly well Austen will think of something.
A comment on "brother and sister": you considered the husband of your sister as a sort of brother, and same with the sexes reversed . So Emma thinks of John Knightly as a brother, and Isabella thinks of Mr. Knightly as a brother, he thinking of Isabella as a sister. Emma and Mr. Knightly are one step away from this, but close enough to explain her remark. It's amusing how indignant he is, and Austen emphasizes it by ending the chapter there.
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Ah...thank you PatH., I was wondering about this. I completely forgot Emma's sister Isabella, is married to Mr. Knightley's brother.
Austen has cracked the door, for us to see the relationship would be appropriate, should Emma and Mr. Knightley decide to go in that direction.
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Hmmmm.
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Enjoy your company, Joan. How I envy you. I wish I could have someone dropping in to take me away from the arduous task of writing an answer to Bellamarie's good case for friendship with Emma. It's going to take something. I've never read anything that allows for more disagreement than EMMA. But first:
"Brother and sister! No, indeed."
This little expression with Mr. Knightley gave Emma considerable pleasure."
Doesn't Emma have two brothers? One, John, by marriage law. And one, George, Mr. Knightley, by propinquity. For so many years, growing up, Emma had Mr Knightley as a big brother. The pleasure she feels must be the sensation that their relationship has gone to something new.
I'm so happy for Mr. Elton. 'He seemed not merely happy with her, but proud. He had the air of congratulating himself on having brought such a woman to Highbury, as not even Miss Woodhouse could equal...'
Augusta will turn out to be the perfect vicar's wife. Emma thinks only of matchmaking. Mrs Elton wants to raise the cultural and social level of Highbury. She wants only to be helpful, whether it's making connections for Emma and her father in Bath, or helping Jane to the best place as governess. Obviously Mrs Elton has many connections to a wider world. And she does have many in the community siding with her. She's a breath of fresh air in Highbury.
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In two hours, there'll be twelve people in this small apartment (including five kids ages 3 to 15). I doubt I'll be able to get near the computer for awhile. But PatH and others will be steering the ship.
Maybe it's time to back away from the plot a minute and look at the detailed picture Austen gives us of everyday life for the privileged in a small town. What has changed and what hasn't? Are the conversations less predictable now? Do we recognize any of these characters as people we know?
What about the snobbery? It has seemed to me, as I've moved about quite a bit in my life, that everywhere I go, there are people who have decided that they are better than someone else on some grounds or other. (The ones that include me in the "better" class. Presumably those that don't, don't talk to me). Have you had that experience?
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More on rank and snobbery: there is more to this horror of the landed gentry of those who are "in trade" than just the difference between "old money" and "new money" that exists in most societies.
Historically, the source of wealth in England, as in all countries, was in the land, and it was the people who owned land who had the money and power. But England, like all countries, was undergoing the transition where trade became more important. England had become the leading trading and mercantile country in the world. These new rich people showing up with their wealth from trade were the future, and the landed gentry were the past, hanging on to their position with both hands.
Again, we see that in Downton Abbey a hundred years later, where the lord of the manor has to invest his money in something else in order to keep his landed estate going.
In Austen's time, the only access the landed class had to that money was through navel officers who acted as privateers, capturing trading ships of other nations. And through those who maintained plantations in the Caribbean, using slave labor to grow sugar, and bring it to England. Austen has characters in some of her books doing both those things.
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On slavery: there is a brief mention of the slave trade in Emma (I forget if it's in this section or the next ). England itself did not have slaves, but they were very active in the slave trade. Their was a growing abolitionist movement in England aimed at abolishing the slave trade, and Austen was very sympathetic to it. Although she may not have fully realized how horrible it was. There is also a brief anti-slavery mention in the book where her characters make their money from a Caribbean plantation.
These are rare times when the outside world intrudes into Austen's cameo world.
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| Augusta will turn out to be the perfect vicar's wife. Emma thinks only of matchmaking. Mrs Elton wants to raise the cultural and social level of Highbury. She wants only to be helpful, whether it's making connections for Emma and her father in Bath, or helping Jane to the best place as governess. Obviously Mrs Elton has many connections to a wider world. And she does have many in the community siding with her. She's a breath of fresh air in Highbury. |
Jonathan, Jonathan
Surely you jest?
Does anyone know what the qualifications were to be a vicar? And how does "parish business" fit in with Mr Knghtely and Mr Weston? Is it political, religious or both?
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here we go with a couple of helpful links
Hierarchy of the Church of England in the 1820 period
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/Misc/Definitions/Church.html
Vicars' Close, in Wells, Somerset, England, is claimed to be the oldest purely residential street with its original buildings all surviving intact in Europe. John Julius Norwich calls it "that rarest of survivals, a planned street of the mid-14th century".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicars%27_Close,_Wells
In effect, an advowson is the right to nominate a person to be parish priest (subject to episcopal approval), and such right was often originally held by the lord of the manor of the principal manor within the parish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advowson
By the 1630s, however, it seems that most parishes, at least in the south of England, had a clergyman with a university education. Most stemmed from the middle ranks of society. In the north of England and the north Midlands, however, many clergy came from humbler social backgrounds, were educated locally, often in recently founded grammar schools, and never went to university. That broad generalization seems to have been valid even into the 19th century.From the 18th century onwards the younger sons of country gentleman came to fill the majority of the higher and best remunerated positions in the church (as they did in the state), though there were always occasional exceptions.
From the 17th century many more clergy were ordained than could be provided with permanent benefices and the less well connected clergy spent their lives as assistant curates doing duty for others, often supplementing an inadequate stipend by acting as the local schoolmaster.
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Clergy_of_Church_of_England_%28in_England%29
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Barb, Thank you so much for the links. Helps explain Mr Elton's behavior. He really didn't have to have a "higher calling".
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Barb, thanks for all those links. So, a vicar would have to have some level of education to enter the clergy, and of course he would have to be ordained (made a priest). Then he would have to be appointed to a "living". This would include the vicarage, where he could live, and a stipend, from the tithes of the congregation. Sometimes it also included some land, "glebe", which could be farmed for more income. Usually a "patron", someone of great importance in the area, has the power to make the appointment. Often in Austen's novels you know who the patron is, and it may even be a plot point, but here it isn't mentioned.
For non-Anglicans, priests in the Church of England, and Episcopalian priests here, can marry. Austen doesn't seem to use the word priest.
More about parish business after supper.
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Halcyon, you were posting while I was writing. You're right, often it wasn't a "higher calling", just a way to make a suitable genteel living, or move up to gentility. There were books of sermons published to help out those who couldn't be bothered to write there own.
Mr. Elton is away from the parish for many weeks while looking for a wife and arranging his marriage. Who took care of the parish? It isn't mentioned, but there were hordes of curates who hadn't gotten livings glad to fill in for whatever the vicar could pay.
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And how does "parish business" fit in with Mr Knghtely and Mr Weston? Is it political, religious or both?
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The parishes were administrative districts too. Mr. Knightly and Mr. Weston would be taking care of secular business concerning local affairs. Knightly's estate, Donwell Abbey, although close to Highbury, is in the adjacent parish, but he seems to do a lot of business in Highbury. Perhaps his parish doesn't have a real village.
In addition, Mr. Knightly is a magistrate, which means he is the main legal authority locally, and judges run of the mill cases. more serious ones would go to a London court.
Maybe that explains his tendency to be judgmental. ;)
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Maybe that explains his tendency to be judgmental.
Haha. PatH. Thank you for the explanation.
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JoanK
Maybe it's time to back away from the plot a minute and look at the detailed picture Austen gives us of everyday life for the privileged in a small town. What has changed and what hasn't? Are the conversations less predictable now? Do we recognize any of these characters as people we know?
Every town seems to have its social hierarchy. Where we live there is a distinction between Northsiders and the rest of the town, the Northsiders being lower on the class scale. The dividing line is the railroad tracks, tracks that were torn up fifty years ago! Same thing in the small town I grew up in, the division was the railroad tracks. Not good to live on the other side of the tracks. I have lots of good memories living near the tracks, finding pieces of coal to write on the sidewalk with, walking on the railroad ties (especially over the bridge), watching the caboose go by, waving to the engineer and hearing stories about long ago hobo camps further down the line. We were always told not to play near the tracks but, of course, that never stopped us. I remember once crawling under a stopped train to take a shortcut home from school. Lucky no one saw us do that!
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Halcyon I echo your sentiment.
Jonathan, Jonathan
Surely you jest?
Why is it that when Emma tries to help someone she is meddling, and it's thought to be negative, yet Mrs. Elton comes to Highbury, seems to want to tell everyone how to live, and it is not meddling. Well, Jane sure wishes Mrs. E., would butt out of her business. She argues with her about no longer walking to the post office, and then about applying for governess jobs.
I get the feel Jane has some other plans for herself once the Campbells return, and she tries to make Mrs. Elton see she does not want her to rush her into things. Jane seems to be getting letters from the Campbells.
pg. 502 Jane's solicitude about fetching her own letters had not escaped Emma. She had heard and seen it all; and felt some curiosity to know whether the wet walk of this morning had produced any. She suspected that it had; that it would not have been so resolutely encountered but in full expectation of hearing from someone very dear, and that it had not been in vain. She thought there was an air of greater happiness than usual__a glow both of complexion and spirits.
She could have made an inquiry or two, as to the expedition and the expense of the Irish mails; it was at her tongue's end__but she abstained. She was quite determined not to utter a word that should hurt Jane Fairfax's feelings; and they followed the other ladies out of the room, arm-in-arm, with an appearance of good-will highly becoming to the beauty and grace of each.
pg. 503 "Colonel and Mrs. Campbell are to be in town again by Midsummer," said Jane. I must spend some time with them; I am sure they will want it; afterwards I may probably be glad to dispose of myself. But I would not wish you to take the trouble of making any inquiries at present."
When you speak of the vicar's wife, is it standard this person has the place to try to tell the townspeople how to live since she is indeed the wife of the vicar? Or is Mrs. Elton overstepping her place? Mr. Elton the vicar, has gone off and found the first girl who would have him, his character is in question, and his new wife sure does not seem to have high ratings especially by her attitude and behavior so far, so how does one respect, and allow this woman, tell them how to live?
I stopped to give what Mr. Woodhouse says a bit of pondering:
"Yes; but a young lady__a bride__ I ought to have paid my respects to her if possible. It was deficient."
"But dear papa, you are no friend to matrimony; and therefore why should you be so anxious to pay your respects to a bride? It ought to be no recommendation to you. It is encouraging people to marry if you make so much of them."
"No, my dear, I never encouraged anybody to marry, but I would always wish to pay every proper attention to a lady__and a bride especially is never to be neglected. More is avowedly due to her[/i]. A bride, you know, my dear, is always the first in company, let the other be who they may."
"Well, papa, if this is not encouragement to marry I do not know what it is. And I should never have expected you to be lending your sanction to such vanity-baits for poor young ladies."
"My dear, you do not understand me. This is a matter of mere common politeness and good-breeding, and has nothing to do with any encouragement to people to marry."
Emma had done. Her father was growing nervous, and could not understand her. Her mind returned to Mrs. Elton's offenses and long, very long, did they occupy her.
Even though Mr. Woodhouse is so against young people marrying, I am with Emma, I do feel his words say differently. I understand his stance on the proper attention to congratulate the newly married couple, but his ending statement sure makes a young girl wonder if being a bride is more important...... "A bride, you know, my dear, is always the first in company, let the other be who they may."
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JoanK., Wow! A houseful of relatives of all ages, now that truly sounds exciting to me. I love it when my grandkids spend the night, and I especially love when both my sons families, and my hubby and I, all go to the water park/hotel for a weekend getaway. We all end up in one big room, lounging around, laying in one big huge bed, and just enjoying each other's company. I cherish those times with family.
Maybe it's time to back away from the plot a minute and look at the detailed picture Austen gives us of everyday life for the privileged in a small town. What has changed and what hasn't? Are the conversations less predictable now? Do we recognize any of these characters as people we know?
Oh indeed we do know people like this, and I fear there could be those, who could also see us like this, depending on their places and feelings in our church/community.
My hubby and I were just speaking on this subject the other day. We have lived in this community and gone to the same church since 1977. I have taught CCD classes, worked in the parish/school, been best friends with the Pastor and Associate Pastor who was a nun and my best friend. We have been extremely involved throughout the years in all church activities, and school functions, from me being a Brownie leader when my daughter was young, to coaching the cheerleading squad, and my hubby has been either a head coach or assistant coach throughout these years, and is now helping our sons, who are head coaches for the sports at the school.
But....in saying this, I know there are families, that see ours as the ones over involved, we too have had to deal with families that appear to have more money, more status, and do not want to show us respect for all the work and time we put in. Their income seems to give them the idea, they do not have to put in the volunteer time, and yet expect their children to be treated better, and given more playtime in sports, than other children. So, I suppose the point I am making is.....no matter which situation, or position you hold in your community/church, there is always going to be those who do, and those who feel their money or status trumps everything. My hubby at the age of sixty-five felt the stinging of being snubbed in the church golf league, by a new younger guy, and not shown respect for being a member, just recently. I told him, this is always going to happen, no matter where you live. Just shake it off, and let it go.
Halycon, Not good to live on the other side of the tracks.
This is so interesting you mentioned this. I am from a very small rural town. The railroad tracks were truly a dividing line of poverty vs. status quo. Where I lived was a long country road, with the railroad tracks just across my road. We would lay across our beds many a nights and days, and look out the window, and wave to the conductor of the trains that went by. Oh did the trains drive me nuts when I wanted to sleep. We knew we were poor, and realized there was a better society of people when we went to school, and saw the kids in our classrooms. I wrote a small story about my childhood, with a line diagonal through the cover of the book, and the title is, "Crossing Over the Line." The gist of my story is about growing up rural and poor, meeting my hubby and marrying him, moving to a city, living in a modest nice church/community. We are far from wealthy, but are rich in the people we know, and the family we have.
Halycon, My siblings and I also played on the railroad tracks, for some reason they made up a song or knew from some place and decided to tease me with it, and tag me with the nickname Memo. To this day my sisters will laugh and call me Memo. The song went like this...
Memo, Memo, broke her toe, on the way to Mexico
On the way back, she broke her back
Sliding down the railroad tracks.
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Memo, that's a great little ditty. Even though I live miles from the traks now, I can hear still hear the trains when the weather is just right. I love the sound. Makes me think of all the travellers and the places they're going to. Whenever I get the chance I travel by rail. We even travelled by train cross country in a sleeper when was son was young. Such fun.
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I do love the sound of trains as well. But, I have never traveled on them. I have a huge fear because my Daddy was killed by a train when I was only two years old. He and a group of men, who worked for the railroad company in our small town, were in a pickup truck, some in the front and others in the back, and the train struck the truck and some were killed, others maimed or badly injured. I don't know the entire story, but I think the truck stalled out on the tracks, as the train was coming.
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Goodness. I'm not sure I'd love the sound of trains after that.
It's funny how people manage to find some basis for feeling they are better than others. As JoanK points out, in Austen's time they were running scared; the landed class was afraid of losing power, money and influence to the "upstarts".
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You have our sincere condolencies, Bellamarie, even though it happened so many years ago.
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Oh my - that is an empty spot you have been living with - sorry Bellamarie
PatH from other reading I understand the reason they were running scared in the early nineteenth century was because of the French Revolution that they did not want that experience to hop over the channel and it was thought cementing in place the ship shape exactness of protocol, manners and place would be their shield.
That concept has influenced me while reading this to see Mr. Knightly as protecting Emma, who is more inclined toward a looser behavior that probably resembles the community relationship between family, friends and neighbors in the earlier eighteenth century. For example, I just do not see a Moll Flanders being published at this time and getting much traction.
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I'm so sorry Bellamarie. Your fear of train travel is certainly understandable.
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For example, I just do not see a Moll Flanders being published at this time and getting much traction.
Goodness, it's been decades since I read Moll Flanders. It's a far cry from Robinson Crusoe, the other book of Defoe's that's still read. I presume you're referring to the fact that Moll, who was born in Newgate Prison and starts out as a servant, marries into the gentry. That doesn't last, and Moll has her ups and downs, eventually going to jail and being transported to the Colonies (Virginia) and ending up prosperous and respectable. The subtitle of the book gives a good summary:
The Fortunes and Misfortunes of the Famous Moll Flanders, &c. Who was Born in Newgate, and during a Life of continu'd Variety for Threescore Years, besides her Childhood, was Twelve Year a Whore, five times a Wife (whereof once to her own Brother), Twelve Year a Thief, Eight Year a Transported Felon in Virginia, at last grew Rich, liv'd Honest, and died a Penitent. Written from her own Memorandums.
I don't know if Austen read the book, but I'm sure she wouldn't have approved of the immorality, and Moll's lighthearted approach to it. Like many, Moll finally got her chance in Virginia, when she could start over. We have truly been the land of second chances.
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I am trying to put my finger on it and what I see is, those authors who were born in the preceding century and publishing in the early part of the nineteenth century, were narrow in their character and plot without including a second chance as a solution for their characters. There is Blake, Burns, Coleridge, Shelly and Wordsworth - it is not till mid century and later when we get to Wilde and Dickens or even the Bronte's that we see characters with a seamy side or born into a lower class as an acceptable character in the storyline - there is less rigid behavior where as, when Jane Austen was writing in addition, to stories about this period, everyone is in their proper place with duty to society at the core as well as, fear of what can be brought by an unknown. The second chances during this time seems to be when someone or a family is raised out of a temporary poverty by someone in a high position. The mannerisms of the poor are not as acceptable as they are later when Elizabeth Gaskill and Dickens tell stories.
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'Mr. Knightly is a magistrate...
Maybe that explains his tendency to be judgmental.'
You're right, Pat, in seeing Mr. Knightley as judgmental, and no doubt his experience as magistrate made him a good judge of character, but I see hm becoming the jealous lover and jealousy is affecting his opinions and his judgment.
I'm so caught up in this tale that I've become oblivious to its place in English literature. I can see the hilarity of contrasting Emma Woodhouse and Moll Flanders as heroines. I like to think that Austen read the Defoe book written a hundred years earlier, just as she must have read The Vicar of Wakefield. There was a wider world out there, but it's amazing how much of lovable, rollicking and perverse human nature Austen got into her prim and proper tales.
Interesting quotes again, Bellamarie. Isn't Emma curious about whose letter Jane is expecting, running out into the rain to fetch it herself. And who writes the best letters? We learned that early on didn't we. And sure enough we find Frank Churchill writing letters farther along in this chapter.
Don't you think Mr. Woodhouse has got himself into trouble by making brides look attractive. Until now all we have heard him say about married women is 'Poor Mrs So-and-So., And why is that? He's afraid of losing Emma. But his social obligation has clicked in...and Emma does not understand...or does she?
But let's give class structure and church hierarchies a whirl. By the way, there was no railway track running throug Highbury. That devisive device was still missing in the English social landscape
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I think Emma is confused with her father's statement about "a bride is first in company, let the others be who they may."
She questions his contradictory remarks. Even though it is customary, and the proper etiquette, Emma sees his remark more as praise and glory to the bride, and the last part of his remark seems to be saying, all the others are insignificant. For someone like Emma, who is used to having her father's attention, approval, and praise, this could cause her to think marriage would bring her into the spotlight, as he has pointed out, a bride's place to be.
When I read this I could not help but think about how young teen Mothers get so much attention, and once the baby arrives it is showered with attention, that sisters and friends tend to think that if they too get pregnant it will achieve the same attention. I have seen this repeatedly happen with families.
So, considering the fact Emma and Mr. Knightley have seemed to advance a bit in their feelings for each other, and Mr. Woodhouse has praised "the bride," do you suppose this will bring more thought to Emma, about never wanting to marry?
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I have a slightly different take on the scene between Emma and her father. It was indeed customary to make a big fuss over brides and put them first--to visit them promptly, give them precedence over others in the order of going in, etc. Mr. Woodhouse is polite and proper, and feels guilty for not doing what he knows is his duty. Emma is trying to tease him into feeling better, by pointing out the inconsistency, and trying to get him to laugh. It doesn't work, but it shows her affection for him.
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That's interesting PatH., I never saw Emma trying to humor Mr. Woodhouse, although she did not want him to feel bad for not coming sooner. The paragraphs directly before this conversation is about Emma being very angry, and not liking Mrs. Elton, so I sense she was not in a very humorous mood, hearing her father give Mrs. Elton, "the bride," all this praise and attention.
pg. 493 Happily it was time to be gone. They were off, and Emma could breathe. "Insufferable woman!" was her immediate exclamation. "Worse than I had supposed. Absolutely insufferable! Knightley! I could not have believed it. Knightley! never seen him in her life before and call him Knightley! and discover that he is a gentleman. A little upstart, vulgar being, with her Mr. E. and her caro sposo, and her resources, and all her air of pert pretension and underbred finery. Actually to discover that Mr. Knightley is a gentleman! I doubt whether he will return the compliment, and discover her to be a lady. I could not have believed it! And to propose that she and I should unite to form a musical club! One would fancy we were bosom friends! And Mrs. Weston! Astonished that the person who had brought me up should be a gentlewoman! Worse and worse! I never met with her equal. Much beyond my hopes! Harriet is a disgraced by any comparison. Oh! what would Frank Churchill say to her if he were here? How angry and how diverted he would be.
All this ran so glibly through her thoughts, that by the time her father had arranged himself, after the bustle of the Elton's departure, and was ready to speak, she was very tolerably capable of attending.
So, the ball is over, and Emma is so very happy the next morning, thinking of dancing with Mr. Knightley, when all of a sudden in comes Frank Churchill and Harriet, with the story of the gipsies assailing poor Harriet. And who comes to her rescue, but none other than Frank Churchill! Emma sees him as Harriet's knight and shining armor, to the rescue. Well, that fits perfectly in the match ups!
Are we ready to move on to the next chapters? I can barely wait to see what happens next.
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I'll consult with the boss, if I can tear her away from my grandchildren. Where is everybody? Are you ready to read more?
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That is so cute that JoanK., is busy with your grandkids, PatH. :) I will wait to hear what the boss has to say. ;)
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I'm ready to move on.
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The boss is ready to move on. The tide of people has washed in a different direction for a few hours, so let me see where the next break should be.
By the way, PatH's grandchildren, (my great nephew 6 and great niece 3) are indeed GREAT. My three grandsons, who are older, have adopted them, and are showing them a great time. Pat may not get them back!
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Let's do a short read: through Chapter IX. This includes the picnic at Box Hill. we won't stay on it long.
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Thanks JoanK., for taking some time out to give us some more chapters. Sounds like you are in Seventh Heaven!
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pg. 493 'Happily it was time to be gone. They were off, and Emma could breathe. "Insufferable woman!" was her immediate exclamation. "Worse than I had supposed. Absolutely insufferable!'
Another wonderful quote, Bellamarie. That's the sort of thing we've come to expect from Emma. Her conclusion came after a visit that lasted all of fifteen minutes. What a rush to judgment! Isn't she a control freak. Even the author seems mesmerized by her character, judging by the lopsided narrative. And she claimed to like her!
We're all envious of the fun you're having, Joan.
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While we're all eagerly reading to find out what twists and turns Austen's characters will take next, I'd like to comment further on JoanK's earlier questions. One thing that certainly hasn't changed in villages, or other small contained groups of people, is the gossip. No one can do anything in Highbury without it being noticed, and the news spreads like wildfire. Anyone who wants to live a life that doesn't fit in to the rules of behavior (extravagant, indolent, ill-mannered, snooty, or worse) is asking for trouble.
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PatH., You could not have chosen a better time to post your comment:
One thing that certainly hasn't changed in villages, or other small contained groups of people, is the gossip. No one can do anything in Highbury without it being noticed, and the news spreads like wildfire. Anyone who wants to live a life that doesn't fit in to the rules of behavior (extravagant, indolent, ill-mannered, snooty, or worse) is asking for trouble.
It was a short read, and I have to say, I am typing through tears of disappointment. For you who have read Emma, before, or have read ahead, I can see where your comments, and feelings have been coming from. I just never understood, until now.
I, like Mr. Knightley, loves Emma. But at this point, I am appalled at her behavior. I will not go any further, until I see others have completed these next chapters. By then, I may have collected my thoughts, and feelings, enough to express some of my suspicions as to what, and why, things took place in these chapters.
Jonathan, I still have not changed my views on Mr. and Mrs. Elton. Only if, or until, she shows me better, I still stand by not wishing to be friends with her, and agree with Emma choosing not to as well. She still remains an insufferable woman to me.
For now, I shall leave to sit in sadness, and dismay.
Thank goodness March Madness is on tonight, and I can get involved in rooting for my hubby's basketball teams to win, since he is in 1st place in our brackets. I need a distraction, about now.
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Hang in there, Bellamarie, it isn't over until it's over.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
March/April Book Club Online
Emma
by Jane Austen
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/emma/emmacvr.jpg) | "I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like” Jane Austen of Emma.
Will you like her, the heroine who Austen claimed was most like herself, and who inspired a movie called "Clueless"? If not, there's lots more to like in this classic novel of love, misdirection, and social class. |
Schedule
March 1-5 Part I: Chapters 1-7
March 6 - 12 Part I: Chapters 8-17
March 13 Part I: Chapter 18, Part II Chapter 1-6
March 19 Part II: Chapter 7-13
March 23 Part II: Chapters 14-18 Part III Chapters 1-4
March 27 Part III: Chapter 5-9
March 30 Part III: Chapter 10-end
QUESTIONS VOLUME II CHAPTERS 7-13
1. Does the fact that frank Churchill goes to London to get his hair cut change your opinion of him? Why or why not?
2. Why does Emma not want to go to the Coles? Do such class distinctions exist where you live? What is their basis? Why did her opinion of the Coles change when she got there?
3. Did Emma do wrong when she shared her suspicions of Jane Fairfax with Frank? What do you think of his efforts to tease Jane about them in chapter X?
4. Who do you think the piano came from? What do Jane's reactions while people are talking about it tell you?
5. Is Emma falling in love with Frank Churchill? Is it possible not to know if you're in love or not?
6. "A mind lively and at ease, can do with seeing nothing, and can see nothing that does not answer." Do you agree?
7. Harriet, tempted by everything and swayed by half a word, was always very long at a purchase." Have you ever gone shopping with a friend like that? How did it work out?
Text of Emma (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/158/158-h/158-h.htm)~~~ Emma review (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/nov/04/100-best-novels-jane-austen-emma) ~~~ Austen related books (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/jun/15/what-matters-in-jane-austen-review)~~~ Jane Austen biography (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/austejn/austen.html)
Discussion Leader: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
All through dinner my hubby had to sit and listen to me yammer on and on. I told him I feel like Miss Bates, not only not being able to stop talking, but feeling the sting of Emma. :(
She has a ton of mea culpas, to say!
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For people like me who are a bit curious of Box Hill I found this link with some pictures of it.
http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/box-hill/
(http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheader=image%2Fjpeg&blobheadername1=Content-Disposition&blobheadername2=MDT-Type&blobheadername3=Content-Type&blobheadervalue1=inline%3B+filename%3D35%252F113%252FBox%2BHill%2B06%2BJohn%2BMiller25%2Bcropped_thumb_460x0%252C0.jpg&blobheadervalue2=abinary%3B+charset%3DUTF-8&blobheadervalue3=image%2Fjpeg&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1349117426548&ssbinary=true)
It truly looks like an amazing place to just spend the day taking in the beauty of it all. Too bad the behavior of some did not match up with the beauty of the place.
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I especially like this picture, it looks so much like what we can imagine the characters in Emma to look like here.
http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/wra-1356328121950/view-page/item424363/
From books....
Box Hill has a long history of being popular with creative society and has inspired some classic writings. John Keats, Daniel Defoe, George Meredith and Robert Louis Stevenson were all visitors. J.M. Barrie used to sit at the bottom of the same slope, getting inspiration for his classic book Peter Pan.
In Jane Austen's book Emma, the famous picnic scene was set on the Burford Spur. ‘Emma had never been to Box Hill; she wished to see what everybody found so well worth seeing.’
The Burford Spur remains the same, our visitors look a little different
(http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheader=image%2Fjpeg&blobheadername1=Content-Disposition&blobheadername2=MDT-Type&blobheadername3=Content-Type&blobheadervalue1=inline%3B+filename%3D1017%252F925%252FBox%2BHill%2Bold%2Bphotograph%2Bof%2Bvisitors%2Bfinal%2Bc_thumb_460x0%252C0.jpg&blobheadervalue2=abinary%3B+charset%3DUTF-8&blobheadervalue3=image%2Fjpeg&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1349117437760&ssbinary=true)
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Thanks for the pictures, Bellamarie. Box Hill is certainly lovely. It's too bad the characters' behavior doesn't match. They are all either tired, cross, rude, out of sorts, at odds with one another. Beauty certainly isn't soothing them.
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Thanks for the Box Hill site, Bellamarie. I have not yet arrived there in Emma, still running a bit behind, but am enjoying the glimpses into small town life in that period of time. Shades of Gopher Prairie. (S Lewis) I don't remember the name of Mrs. Elton's counterpart there, but the title just jumped out at me. Mrs Elton is a pretty obnoxious woman but I wonder if part of it is insecurity at having left all that was near and dear to her. Maple Grove was her world and now she's left it. And when we're uprooted we tend to overlook the flaws of what we left. Years ago, when I was planning to move to CapeG some friends of mine said, "We knew people from CapeG when we were in the Army. The worst thing that ever happened to them was having to leave CapeG."
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ewww photos - great Bellamarie - I love being a bit high on a bluff with a vista spread out so that to look at the horizon you realize your seeing the curvature of the earth.
Google mapped BoxHill - included are 61 additional photos - I recognized the names on the map of some villages and towns that we hear about when reading many stories by British authors, not just the Jane Austen stories. Looks like it is an easy joint from London. The background info says that there were several authors who would regularly visit the area including J. M Barrie, who was a regular visitor when he was writing Peter Pan.
It appears Jane's crew in Emma are happier with short house visits to each other or dancing away in someone's home where as an excursion is too much since it seems to bring out their 'itches' - ah so... they would not blame it on the outing I am sure. Maybe not being in control of the wind, sun, grasses and trees as they are when in their homes and the village?!?
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Bellamarie: yes, I hope at the end, we'll go back and look at some of these earlier scenes. They read quite differently the second time. Right now, are you all at the strawberry gathering and picnic on Box Hill?
I'm going to root on MY basketball team (the Maryland women).
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The malaise started the day before, with the strawberry party. Everyone blamed the heat.
I was highly amused at Mrs. Elton's attempts to take over running the strawberry party. Mr. Knightly wasn't having any, and didn't let her get away with much.
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Could someone clarify Perry's position? Is he a physician, druggist or herbalist? It seems he is always busy treating people but doesn't have enough money for a carriage. Emma certainly did not want to explain the "private joke" with the alphabet letters to Mr. Knghtely. She does have a conscience and seems to get caught up in Frank's silliness.
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My understanding is Perry is the town Physician.
I have some thoughts on the behavior of Emma and Frank at Box Hill. Will be back in a bit, have to run to my grandson's basketball game.
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Mr. Perry is an apothecary. It was common at this time for apothecaries also to be the source for medical advice, and many of them also had additional training, such as being surgeons. Highbury is probably too small to support a physician.
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Before getting into the Box Hill picnic, I would like to discuss the alfresco party at Mr. Knightley's Abbey. Mrs. Elton was determined to try to take control immediately, but Mr. Knightley very courteously, refused her help and managed his invites and planning with this statement:
"And, by the bye, can I or my housekeeper be of any use to you with our opinion? Pray be sincere, Knightley. If you wish me to talk to Mrs. Hodges, or to inspect anything__"
"I have not the least wish for it, thank you."
"Well_but if any difficulties should arise, my housekeeper is extremely clever."
"I will answer for it that mine thinks herself full as clever, and would spurn anybody's assistance."
Mr. Knightley knew exactly who he wanted to invite, and how he wanted the party to go. What did surprise me, Mr. Weston was not invited, he seemed to invite himself, and his son Frank as well.
Mr. Weston, unasked, promised to get Frank over to join them, if possible; a proof of approbation and gratitude which could have been dispensed with. Mr. Knightley was then obliged to say that he should be glad to see him; and Mr. Weston engaged to lose no time in writing, and spare no arguments to induce him to come.
Frank comes late, and seems to have run into Jane leaving. Frank is in a foul mood, complaining about the heat, being tired of doing nothing and wants to travel abroad.
Emma then tells Frank about them going to Box Hill, and asks if he will come, he first refuses saying if he comes he shall be cross, but then changes his mind, because he does not want to be in Richmond, thinking of all them in Box Hill.
So, what has gotten Frank so cross? Did he and Jane exchange words when he saw her leaving? Jane is not at all happy that Mrs. Elton had gotten her a governess job, behind her back. Is Frank upset from something Jane has told him? A lot seems to be going on with Frank and Jane, that we just are not getting to know yet.
Emma was so enjoying the Abbey, the outside, the party, the entire day before Jane decides to slip off, and leave on her own, and Frank show up so cross. This all seems to be leading right into the next day at Box Hill.
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Thank you PatH., I was not sure exactly what Perry was, it just seemed he was called for advice of one's health issues.
file:///C:/Users/Marie/Downloads/emma_text_notes.shtml
apothecary
A medical man; didn't have a university degree (in which case would be known as a physician); probably in modern terms would be like a pharmacist who visited patients and prescribed medicine for them.
Another interesting thing I found is this:
Knightley
For Mrs Elton to call a gentleman by his surname only, without the prefix of 'Mr' or whatever his title might be, implies that she is either related to him or knows him extremely well, otherwise it would be considered very bad manners. Even Emma, who is related to him by the marriage of her sister to his brother, would not presume to do this.
This explains why Emma was so agitated, with Mrs. Elton using "Knightley."
confusion of rank
Generally families of different social levels did not socialise together, and Emma and her set would disapprove of anyone 'beneath' them socially being invited to a gathering such as a dance or ball. It sounds snobbish to our modern ears but was a perfectly normal attitude at this time.
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confusion of rank
Generally families of different social levels did not socialise together, and Emma and her set would disapprove of anyone 'beneath' them socially being invited to a gathering such as a dance or ball. It sounds snobbish to our modern ears but was a perfectly normal attitude at this time.
This points out one of the barriers to enjoying Emma today. The characters do seem snobbish to us some of the time, and also we miss things, such as why it's so bad for Mrs. Elton to say "Knightley" rather than "Mr. Knightley". They are all trying to get the best life they can in this rigid set of rules they live in, and some of them are using its subtleties to their advantage. We, as amateurs, have to work hard to see what's going on.
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I thought it was very improper for Mrs. Elton to call her husband Mr. E., and to use Knightley, when she barely knows him. This is why Emma was so upset with her. It is a bit of a presumption on Mrs. Elton, to begin using names such as these. I took it as her trying to insinuate, she is closer to Mr. Knightley than she is, and in using these names, it is like she is making others feel she has some special status.
Yes, PatH., I agree, some are taken liberties, and showing rudeness. In these chapters especially, you see the characters dividing off into groups on the walk at Box Hill. Frank, Harriet and Emma are a group, Mr. and Mrs. Elliot refuse to join the others, and Mrs. Weston is trying to no avail to get everyone together. So, by the time they all sit down at the table, the mood has already been set for things to transpire.
Is everyone finally getting on each other's nerves? Have they spent too much time together? You have a restless Frank, an irritated Jane, an obnoxious Mrs. Elton, Emma is not liking Mrs. Elton, and not understanding Frank's moodiness, and of course Mr. Knightley the observer of all.
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An aside - (A medical man; didn't have a university degree (in which case would be known as a physician); probably in modern terms would be like a pharmacist who visited patients and prescribed medicine for them.) It is easy for us to think of a pharmacist as we see them here in the States where as my experience in Europe has been they are more like our nurse practitioners - they even dispense meds like mycen and penicillin or heart meds and high blood pressure meds without a doctor's prescription or even a visit to a doctor.
Yes, Jane Austen skillfully slides the story into the day on Box Hill doesn't she - interesting as I became aware of my own personal experience with an Emma like friend, sure enough if the last few days that had us being together did not turn into a lot of looks and rude actions that could probably clear the air if we had a Box Hill but that is for novels - it is amazing to see all this once my eyes were opened - folks jockeying for more esteem and attention. wow...
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My book comes with the summation by the editor that it contains 'The happiest of love stories, the most fiendishly difficult of detective stories and a matchless repository of English wit.'
Aside from the Elton's could someone point out one other 'happy' love story among the younger crowd. Poor Harriet is into her fourth love affair and none has made her happy. After throwing several mementos of Mr Elton's love into the fire she exclaims: 'There is an end, thank Heaven! of Mr Elton. I shall never marry.'
Turn the page, and Emma is told by Harriet '...when I saw him coming -his noble look - and my wretchedness before. Such a change! In one moment such a change! From perfect misery to perfect happiness.'
The wheels start turning in Emma's 'imaginist' mind. She's certain Henrietta is talking about Frank Churchill rescuing her from the gipsies. And thinks not at all of the lonely Henrietta being asked to dance by Mr. Knightley. How thrilled Henrietta had been at that moment.
Where do we go from here? The sophisticated Mrs Elton is certainly misunderstood by even the intelligent people in Highbury.
Who has ever heard of 'the happiness of frightful news'? All the youth and servants in the place when they heard about Harriet being molested by the gipsies. Emma is convinced that Harriet's fortune has been 'made' by the gipsies, by giving Frank an opportunity to rescue her.
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Jonathan,
Aside from the Elton's could someone point out one other 'happy' love story among the younger crowd.
Mr. And Mrs. Weston seem very happy newlyweds, and Isabella and John Knightley have a happy marriage blessed with children.
Hmmm...there is not much to misunderstand about Mrs. Elton. She is pretty much an open book. She likes to brag, is a social climber, demands attention, wants to control everyone's life, and seems a bit over the top with her caro sponsor. I'm still trying to figure out why Mrs. Elton married Mr. Elton, with knowing him for so little time. There is no hint they knew each other, before Mr. Elton went off a wounded hearted man, due to Emma's refusal of his advances.
Jonathan, You make an interesting comment about Emma's "imaginist" mind," I too thought Harriet was speaking of Frank. Why at this time, would we even suspect Harriet is talking about Mr. Knightley, unless her mind has been altered by the gipsies? I would not consider Harriet into her fourth "love affair" at this point she had feelings for Mr. Martin, and Mr. Elton. Did I miss something? What in this era is even considered a "love affair?" Up to this point there has been no physical contact, so much as even a hand held where Harriet is concerned. One dance with Mr. Knightley, does not qualify as a love affair even stretching the imagination to it's fullest, and Emma and I have a very vivid imagination. :o
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At the time, due to the strict rules as to how men and women could interact (an unmarried man and woman couldn't even be alone together, for any length of time) couples often must have married after only a limited acquaintance. In Austen's own "romance", people expected him to "offer" after such a brief encounter.
The whole scene in this section is very skillfully done. Austen is moving her characters around very carefully. And trust Austen to have a happy ending for everyone, even though it doesn't look like it at the minute.
Poor Jane, going off to a job she dreads. Harriet in love again. Frank should be happy -- he doesn't have to dance attendance on Mrs. Churchill and can marry penniless Harriet if he wishes. But instead, he's cross as a bear.
At some point, they play a word game with what looks like scrabble tiles. The game is not explained and is confusing (to me, anyway. It seems to consist of making a word and asking someone to guess what other word you're thinking of.
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I think the game is like anagrams. You give someone the mixed-up letters of the word you're thinking of, and they have to move them around to get the word.
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JoanK., Yes, you are quite right, about the proposals were expected to come quickly. But, because Mr. Elton was so recently professing his love to Emma, and was rejected, it seemed a bit odd, he should go off and come back with a wife, just a short time afterwards. I can't imagine someone falling in, and out of love, so quickly. These statements made at the dinner table, at Box Hill between Frank, Emma, and Jane, seemed to me, Austen giving us some insight to others possibly questioning the sudden marriage as well.
Mr. and Mrs. Elton decline to play the letter game, she says they played it at Christmas time and did not like it then, They get up to leave:
"Happy couple!" said Frank Churchill, as soon as they were out of hearing; "how well they suit one another! Very lucky__marrying as they did upon an acquaintance formed only in a public place! They only knew each other, I think a few weeks in Bath! Peculiarly lucky! For as to any real knowledge of a person's disposition that Bath, or any public place, can give__it is all nothing; there can be no knowledge. It is only by seeing women in their own homes, among their own set, just as they always are, that you can form any judgement. Short of that, it is all guess, and luck__ and acquaintance, and rued it all the rest of his life!"
Miss Fairfax, who had seldom spoken before, except among her own confederates, spoke now.
"Such things do occur, undoubtedly," She was stopped by a cough. Frank Churchill turned towards her to listen.
"You were speaking," said he gravely. She recovered her voice.
"I was only going to observe, that though such unfortunate circumstances do sometimes occur both to men and women, I cannot imagine them to be very frequent. A hasty and imprudent attachment may arise__ but there is generally time to recover from it afterwards. I would be understood to mean, that it can be only weak, irresolute characters (whose happiness must be always at the mercy of chance), who will suffer an unfortunate acquaintance to be an inconvenience, an oppression for ever."
He made no answer, merely looked, and bowed in submission; and soon afterwards said, in a lively tone:
"Well, I have so little confidence in my own judgement that whenever I marry, I hope somebody will choose my wife for me? Will you?" (turning to Emma). "Will you choose a wife for me? I am sure I should like anybody fixed on by you. You provide for the family, you know" (with a smile at his father). "Find somebody for me. I am in no hurry. Adopt her, educate her."
"And make her like myself."
"By all means, if you can."
"Very well, I undertake the commission. You shall have a wife."
"She must be very lively and have hazel eyes. I care for nothing else. I shall go abroad for a couple of years__and when I return, I shall come to you for my wife. Remember."
Emma was in no danger of forgetting. It was a commission to touch every favorite feeling. Would not Harriett be the very creature described? Hazel eyes excepted, two years more might make her all that he wished. He might even have Harriet in his thoughts at the moment; who could say? Referring the education to her seemed to imply it.
So what did you all take from this? The letter game seemed a bit juvenile. Why did Mr. Weston say M and A is perfection? Mrs. Elton mentioned she had an acrostic of her name before, and was not pleased with it. It came from an "abominable puppy"and Mr. Elton knew who that was. What ever did she mean? Who else did not like Mrs. Elton, before she came to Highbury?
This entire dinner party, and day at Box Hill, has turned into a day of undertones of secrets, and outspoken rudeness.
Mr. Knightley is so horribly disappointed in Emma's behaviour. I am appalled that she played along with Frank's flirtatiousness, and rudeness. Why did Frank decide to just act so ill mannered? What did Jane mean when she commented to Frank, about the whole marrying, and happiness being left to chance? I felt the two of them were discussing what ever secrets they have among each other here. Why does Frank have so little confidence, in himself, to choose a wife? Has he asked Jane before, and was rejected by her?
Are Emma's tears in the carriage ride home from regret for being unthoughtful of Miss Bates, or shame because of Mr. Knightley being so upset with her? I know I have more questions than answers in these last chapters. It might be a good idea, they all take a time out from each other.
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From the link I provided earlier:
puppyism
The behaviour of immature young men who ought to know better.
When Mrs. Elton says "abominable puppy," makes me wonder who she was referring to, and what acrostic did this person make of her name, that she was not pleased with?
acrostic
Word puzzle where the first letter or word of each line when read vertically spells out another word or sentence.
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Arrogant
Upstart
Garish
Underhanded
Self-centered
Talkative
Affected
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Poor Augusta. She does come on too strong. To Highburyites she must seem like one from a different world. Will she ever fit in? Or will Mr Elton look for another parish? Perhaps in Bath.
'One dance with Mr. Knightley, does not qualify as a love affair even stretching the imagination to it's fullest.' Imagination had nothing to do with it, Bellamarie. When Harriet was asked to dance by Mr. Knightley, after being snubbed by Mr Elton, she went from 'perfect misery to perfect happiness.' And Emma watched them dance, wondering at what a fine dancer Mr. Knightley was.
And Mr. Knightley is watching Frank Churchill. Suspects Frank of trifling with Jane Fairfax, and sees 'symptoms of intelligence between them.'
Sure enough. Frank wants to send Jane a message and proposes the 'alphabet' game. He's got himself into a fix by mentioning Mr Perry and his plan to acquire a carriage. If we follow the clues we realize he got the information from Jane in a letter, confidentially. He wants to say he's sorry. So he passes her a handful of letters which are soon made out to spell 'blunder'. Jane pushes them away. Harriet, with Mr. Knightley's help also see the message, but can't make any sense of it. Mr Knightley 'connected it with the dream; but how it could all be, was beyond his comprehension.' The dream was Frank's way of explaining his information.
There are enough 'clues' in this book for six novels. There's simply no way of knowing how this will end. And knowing how it ends only leaves one with a sense of wonder. As Pat says: it takes four reads, Each one more enjoyable than the one before.
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Jonathan, Yes, I caught all of that. Especially when he keeps trying to blame Mrs. Elton for being the one who says things, which she clearly denies. So he tries to convince her she did, and then fabricates the dream. He is trying to hide the fact, Jane is the one feeding him information. B L U N D E R indeed!
I woke up today at 5:00 a.m. and watched the sunrise, and had to be at my son's parish for 9:30 Mass, and they are 30 minutes away, then after Mass, we had to babysit the grandkids til 2:00, got home was exhausted, and was trying to find that part in the book where he spells blunder, and wouldn't you know I was just too tired to find it. Thank you Jonathan, because I was beginning to think I may have dreamt it like Frank. ???
Gosh, I sure hope Harriet has not gone and gotten a crush on Mr. Knightley. That poor girl needs to go back to liking Mr. Martin, and call it a day.
Oh please don't tell me, it would take me four reads to catch everything. I am so excited to get to the end, to see how all these puzzles pieces fit. To think, there will be missing pieces could give me a fright!
It's so funny how I was frustrated in the beginning with Mr. Knightley, seeming to think he had the right to oversee Emma's every move. But, now I clearly see, he is a man of good insight, and he misses nothing. He clearly is watching out for Emma. She is young, naive, and is being taken in by Frank's attention, and friendship.
Halycon, I love your acrostic of Augusta. Makes me wonder what "abominable puppy" made with her name. And who is this person?
Are we ready to move on to some more chapters JoanK.? Have PatH.'s children, and grandchildren left yet, or are you still having tons of fun with all your company? I don't want to rush anyone.
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HALCYON: I love your anagram! Perfect. You are now appointed our games mistress!
What do we think of Emma now that she has been so rude to poor Miss Bates? Is she forgiven because she is so sorry afterwards?
And what on earth is going on with the undercurrents at Mr. Knightley's and Box Hill?
Okay, enough suspense! Let's finish the book and all will be revealed. Start reading the end now.
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Oh my I am so excited, just saw we can read to the end!
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I have finished the book, and my oh my, Austen did not disappoint me in any way!
I have to admit all the bread crumbs that were being dropped in here, and in the book, did NOT prepare me for the revelation of Jane and Frank. Yes, I knew they had a secret, but I suspected Frank was in love with Jane, but she was in love with Colonel Campbell. But then, that was the ruse, the two of them set us up to think.
We all knew Jane was reserved and secretive, running off to the post office every day. I had NO idea it was Frank, she couldn't wait to hear from, even though he made a couple of "blunders" in saying Mrs. Weston had told Miss Bates they would come for a visit, and also when he said Mrs. Weston, had wrote to him about Mr. Perry's carriage. Mrs. Weston was horrified, she knew she never did either of these things, and so Frank says he may have dreamt it. At this point, I was convinced Jane was writing to Frank, but still never suspected she was in love with him. Not until the the alfresco party when Frank was so cross, and the Box Hill dinner, did I begin to wonder if Jane had feelings for Frank, when he was so flirtatious with Emma. Nothing makes a man more cross than a lover's quarrel. Heat indeed....and it was NOT the weather heat, he was feeling, more so it was the heat Jane just spurned him with.
I, like Emma, was in total shock learning Harriet's admission of her feelings toward Mr. Knightley. Jonathan, I thought you were so off base with Emma's "imaginist mind". She did not suspect that whatsoever. She was too busy, reveling in her own joy from dancing with Mr. Knightley, that very night. But, then Austen did drop the clue, as you caught about Harriet saying, "when I saw him coming -his noble look - and my wretchedness before. Such a change! In one moment such a change! From perfect misery to perfect happiness.' I was too busy being happy for Emma, finally dancing with Mr. Knightley, I overlooked Harriet's glow.
PatH., Early on you had made a comment about Emma needs to be careful about her teaching and grooming Harriet, she may not like what she creates. Oh, so true! Emma was trying so hard to rise Harriet above her illegitimate birth, and having no knowledge of her real parents. While attempting to help, she did in fact create a bit of an overconfident Harriet . Thank heaven, Mr. Martin had a strong enough love for Harriet, he was willing to wait for her to come to her senses.
I have so much to say about Emma and Mr. Knightley. From the introduction of these two characters I felt they belonged together. It was true Austen style! I remember in one of our posts, we were wondering at what point in time could Mr. Knightley go from being a protective big brother to Emma, and possibly, begin having more intimate feelings for her. I recall mentioning Gone With the Wind and even Alice In Wonderland, where the older man, does indeed find himself having feelings for the much younger girl. It was common back in those eras I suppose, even though for us twenty first century folks, it seems inappropriate.
I need to go back over these chapters, because they were so over packed with emotions, revelations, and puzzle pieces falling into place, I was a bit overwhelmed. I do love how Austen clarified so many things, I suspected throughout the book. It's one thing to "think" you see what is so, but it is entirely different, to read how the author enlightens us to all her secrets and clues along the way.
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I have loved so much reading your posts Bellamarie with your reactions to the characters in this story - it was for me as much fun reading of your reactions as reading the story - probably for some reason I felt at arms length reading this one and had a difficult time taking on the mantel of these characters that felt like a tempest in a tea cup with their geographically contained life. However, I did see so many reactions among the characters that I still see played out today in larger venues.
As usual Jane Austen says it all with grace and a flowing language that makes reading some books today a chore.
Back later, I've been involved with my best friend's care and concern for her children - scary stuff - fell last week at home and only after her daughter attempted to reach her for a few hours that a neighbor was called to go over and my friend had been found in a pool of blood where she hit her head in her fall - other problems so that ICU was her home for a week and now another closely watched room with all likelihood of at least a temporary nursing facility that she is NOT looking forward to - family saying you must is not helping ah so... Hope I can calm everyone so that this could be a time of revisiting happy memories and reminding my friend of her care for her deceased husband and now she needs that kind of care and whom does she think could provide that kind of full time care... My friend just turned 96 last week... we shall see what we shall see. Emma's caring for her father is such a happy thought as compared to this reality.
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Barb, Thank you for your kind words. I feel like I was so into Emma's character, I became her! Imagine that. ::) ::)
I am so very sorry to hear this news of your friend. I pray she heals quickly, and is able to deal with whatever comes her way. She is truly blessed to have a loving, caring friend as you in her difficult times.
Please come back if you can find the time, your insights are so very enlightening, and there is so much to discuss in these last chapters.
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BARB: I'm so sorry to hear about your friend. I will keep her and you in my thoughts.
Thinking it over, maybe it was too much of a gulp reading the end all at once. I was tempted to stop you at the end of chapter 13, but then I thought that would be too much like torture!!! And it would be too hard to keep from reading on.
I hope the rest of you will post your reactions as you read. One surprise after another!
By the way: props to Bellamarie. You had everything pegged right at one point; then Austen managed to confuse you.
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Let's take one revelation after another. First, Frank's behavior explained. Now that you know what was going on with him, does it change your opinion of Frank? How would you describe Frank's character?
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JoanK., I just never saw Jane in love with Frank, until the alfresco party, and Box Hill. They did a great job in their keeping it a secret up to that point. Especially the part about the pianoforte. Frank had given it to her all along. He was shameful in leading Emma to think it was Colonel Campbell. He must have been having a lot of fun, knowing how much he was playing with Emma. She was so gullible, and made it easy for him. :)
I was very much disappointed with Frank after learning the whole scheme. I always saw him as a brother figure to Emma, he was fun, he allowed her to be herself around him, she could say anything, and he would not judge her. Everyone needs a friend like that.
But.....I think he also used her, and because of that I think he went too far with the flirting, saying negative things about Jane to Emma, and not just confiding in Emma, once they formed such a close friendship. I know he almost came clean with Emma, when they got interrupted, and Emma actually was glad they got interrupted, because she thought he might profess his love for her. So, because he had thought about being honest, I was willing to forgive him.
To be honest I was angry with how he treated Emma, Mrs. Weston and Jane, but each of them learning everything still loved him, so I was willing to give him a pass. I loved how he and Emma, ended with their usual bantering. I also loved how he knew he had a lifetime, to be the person Jane could help him to be. Mr. Knightley was even a bit generous in acknowledging this.
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Kudos to Bellamarie. You had it correct right from the beginning!
I'm amazed at how my feelings have changed about the characters. I love love love the idea of Mr. Knightley and Emma being together. (Hope I'm not becoming a romantic.) I still can't compare him with Rhett Butler. I don't think Mr. Knightley ever had a Belle Watling in his life. Also I would never have allowed Mr. Elton to marry me if I was Emma. At one point I thought Mr. Knightley visited his brother to convince him to move to the family home so Mr. Knightley could live with Emma and Mr. Woodhouse.
Frank can easily be forgiven since everything turned out right in the end. He does need to mature a bit and Jane will be a grounding influence. Mr. Martin was certainly a patient lover. I wonder if Mr. Knightley had anything to do with that.
Bellamarie I wanted to tell you so many times to read to the end when you were getting upset with the characters. But it all turned out well!
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Halcyon,
Mr. Martin was certainly a patient lover. I wonder if Mr. Knightley had anything to do with that.
Oh indeed he did, and he also admitted to talking to Harriet as well, on the walks Emma witnessed them taking. Mr. Knightley knew that Emma would want Harriet happy, and he also knew Mr. Martin was the one person who would make Harriet happy.
pg. 584 "How__how has it been possible?"
"It is a simple story. He went to town on business three days ago, and I got him to take charge of some papers which I was wanting to send to Hon. He delivered these papers to John, at his chambers, and was asked by him to join their party the same evening to Astley's. They were going to take the two eldest boys to Astley's. The party was to be our brother and sister, Henry, John__and Miss Smith. My friend Robert could not resist. They called for him in their way; were all extremely amused; and my brother asked him to dine with them the next day, which he did, and in the course of that visit (as I understand) he found an opportunity of speaking to Harriet; and certainly idd not speak in vain. She made him, by her acceptance as happy even as he is deserving. He came down by yesterday's coach, and was with me this morning, immediately after breakfast, to report his proceedings, first on my affairs, and then on his own."
Seems while Mr. Knightley was busy chastising Emma for playing matchmaker, he had his own hands into matchmaking, Robert Martin and Harriet Smith.
Mr. Knightley knew Emma well enough, that if he were to ask her to marry him, he would have to have all his ducks in a row. He would have to have everything in line with the comforts of her father, family, and her friend. She would have to know everyone was in a good place, so she could then be happy herself. He loves her that much, that he knew exactly what to do.
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One thing to keep in mind when judging Frank Churchill is that secret engagements were considered wrong at that time. So he has talked Jane into doing something she knows is wrong, and instead of trying to make it easy for her, he teases her, drops hints, and keeps her frantic, worried that the secret will be discovered.
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Yes, PatH., and as Mr. Knightley points out, Jane was wrong in agreeing to it. When Mr. Knightley reads Frank Churchill's letter, he keeps responding aloud, as if he is speaking with Frank. He says:
"I perfectly agree with you, sir." was then his remark. "You did behave very shamefully. You never wrote a truer line." And having gone through what immediately followed of the basis of their disagreement, and his persisting to act in direct opposition to Jane Fairfax's send of right, he made a fuller pause to say, "This is very bad. He had induced her to place herself, for his sake, in a situation of extreme difficulty and uneasiness, and it should have been his first object to prevent her from suffering unnecessarily. She must have had much more to contend with in carrying on the correspondence than he could. He should have respected even unreasonable scruples, had there been such; but hers were all reasonable. We must look to her own fault, and remember that she had done a wrong thing in consenting to the engagement to bear that she should have been in such a state of punishment."
I like how Mr. Knightley finishes with this statement:
"He has had great faults__faults of inconsideration and thoughtlessness; and I am very much of his opinion in thinking him likely to be the happier than he deserves; but still as he is, beyond a doubt, really attached to Miss Fairfax, and will soon, it may be hoped, have the advantage of being constantly with her, I am very ready to believe his character will improve, and acquire from hers the steadiness and delicacy of principle that it wants."
You can just see Mr. Knightley sitting there, being the magistrate, stopping at each confession of Frank's, commenting, and coming to the conclusion, there is hope for Frank Churchill, to be a better person.
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A common theme in Austen's books is the influence (mostly for good) one spouse will have on the other. Some of her characters really do try to improve themselves. So we can hope that Frank Churchill will give Jane more peace when they are married.
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I personally like Frank and Emma, with all their flaws. They are real people, who I can see myself in, and my family and friends. I think we fall in love with people like them, not in spite of their flaws, but because of who they are with them. Their intentions are not in any way to hurt anyone maliciously. They are a bit self-serving at times, but ultimately, they are also trying to bring happiness to others.
Now, Mrs. Elton is quite the opposite. She did not help her spouse, if anything, I felt she influenced Mr. Elton to be more negative. I trust Jane Austen came across a Mrs. Elton in her lifetime, and wanted to show how some people never change in her last sentences of this book, at Emma and Mr. Knightley's wedding.
"The wedding was very much like other weddings; where the parties have no taste of finery or parade; and Mrs. Elton. from particulars detailed by her husband, that it all extremely shabby, and very inferior to her own. "Very little white satin, very few lace veils, a most pitiful business! Selina would stare when she heard of it."
But, in spite of these deficiencies, the wishes, the hopes, the confidence, the predictions of the small band of true friends who witnessed the ceremony, were fully answered in the perfect happiness of the union.
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Yes, I see Frank as bringing a little fun back into Jane's life after her childhood spent among loving and giving people in recent years she was living back with the Aunt and Grandmother who were not only poor but not fun loving or jolly and were grasping as if whatever they laid their eyes on should be theirs - Hopefully Frank's boyish teasing will help Jane lighten up - she will certainly be in more secure circumstances that hopefully Frank can protect her from what I could see as these grasping women expecting Jane to take care of them in the style they will see she and Frank are living. I do not see Frank as stingy but then I think he needs to protect Jane from herself so that she feels she deserves the life she and Frank can make together. My prescription is they should move away for a couple of years and then when Jane is strong and their marriage is strong and comfortable come back.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
March/April Book Club Online
Emma
by Jane Austen
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/emma/emmacvr.jpg) | "I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like” Jane Austen of Emma.
Will you like her, the heroine who Austen claimed was most like herself, and who inspired a movie called "Clueless"? If not, there's lots more to like in this classic novel of love, misdirection, and social class. |
Schedule
March 1-5 Part I: Chapters 1-7
March 6 - 12 Part I: Chapters 8-17
March 13 Part I: Chapter 18, Part II Chapter 1-6
March 19 Part II: Chapter 7-13
March 23 Part II: Chapters 14-18 Part III Chapters 1-4
March 27 Part III: Chapter 5-9
March 30 Part III: Chapter 10-end
QUESTIONS VOLUME II CHAPTERS 7-13
1. Does the fact that frank Churchill goes to London to get his hair cut change your opinion of him? Why or why not?
2. Why does Emma not want to go to the Coles? Do such class distinctions exist where you live? What is their basis? Why did her opinion of the Coles change when she got there?
3. Did Emma do wrong when she shared her suspicions of Jane Fairfax with Frank? What do you think of his efforts to tease Jane about them in chapter X?
4. Who do you think the piano came from? What do Jane's reactions while people are talking about it tell you?
5. Is Emma falling in love with Frank Churchill? Is it possible not to know if you're in love or not?
6. "A mind lively and at ease, can do with seeing nothing, and can see nothing that does not answer." Do you agree?
7. Harriet, tempted by everything and swayed by half a word, was always very long at a purchase." Have you ever gone shopping with a friend like that? How did it work out?
Text of Emma (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/158/158-h/158-h.htm)~~~ Emma review (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/nov/04/100-best-novels-jane-austen-emma) ~~~ Austen related books (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/jun/15/what-matters-in-jane-austen-review)~~~ Jane Austen biography (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/austejn/austen.html)
Discussion Leader: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
Barb, I agree, Frank and Jane do indeed need their time away. I got the impression they would be living in the Chruchill estate, since he would inherit it, once the elder Mr. Churchill, passes on.
One of my most favorite parts of this entire story, lies in the conversation of Emma and Mr. Knightley, speaking of Mrs. Weston's new baby girl.
Chapter 53
Mrs. Weston's friends were all made happy by her safety, and if the satisfaction of her well-doing could be increased to Emma, it was by knowing her to be the mother of a little girl. She had been decided in wishing for a Miss Weston. She would not acknowledge that it was with any view of making a match for her, hereafter, with either of Isabella's sons; but she was convinced that a daughter would suit both father and mother best. It would be a great comfort to Mr. Weston, as he grew older__and even Mr. Weston might be growing older ten years hence__to have his fireside enlivened by the sports and nonsense, the freaks and the fancies of a child never banished from home; and Mrs. Weston__no one could doubt that a daughter would be most to her; and it would be quite a pity that anyone who so well knew how to teach, should not have their powers in exercise again.
"She has the advantage, you know, of practicing on me," she continued__"like La Baronne d' Almane on La Contesse d' Ostalis, in Madame de Genlis' "Adelaide and Theodore,' and we shall now see her own little Adelaide educated on a more perfect plan.""
"That is," replied Mr. Knightley, "she will indulge her even more than she did you, and believe that she does not indulge her at all. It will be the only difference." "Poor child!" cried Emma; "at that rate what will become of her?" "Nothing very bad. The fate of thousands. She will be disagreeable in infancy, and correct herself as she grows older. I am losing all my bitterness against spoilt children, my dearest Emma. I, who am owing all my happiness to you, would not it be horrible ingratitude in me to be severe on them?" Emma laughed, and replied: "But I had the assistance of all your endeavors to counteract the indulgence of other people. I doubt whether my own sense would have corrected me without it." "Do you? I have no doubt. Nature gave you understanding: Miss Taylor gave you principles. You must have done well. My interference was quite as likely to do harm as good. It was very natural for you to feel that it was done in a disagreeable manner. I do not believe I did you any good. The good was all to myself, by making you an object of the tenderest affection to me. I could not think about you so much without doting on you, faults and all; and by dint of fancying so many errors, have been in love with you ever since you were thirteen at least."
"I am sure your were of use to me," cried Emma. "I was very often influenced rightly by you__oftener than I would own at the time. I am very sure you did me good. And if poor little Anna Weston is to be spoiled, it will be the greatest humanity in you to do as much for her as you have done for me, except falling in love with her when she is thirteen."
"How often, when you were a girl, have you said to me, with one of your saucy looks__"Mr. Knightley, I am going to do so-and-so; papa says I may,' or 'I have Miss Taylor's leave'__something which, you knew, I did not approve. In such cases my interference was giving you two bad feelings instead of one.
"What an amiable creature I was! No wonder you should hold my speeches in such affectionate remembrance."
"'Mr. Knightley,' you always called me. 'Mr. Knightley'; and, from habit, it has not so very formal a sound. And yet it is formal. I want you to call me something else, but I do not know what." "I remember once calling you 'George,' in one of my amiable fits, about ten years ago. I did it because I thought it would offend you; but, as you made no objection, I never did it again." "And cannot you call me 'George' now?" "Impossible! I never can call you anything but 'Mr. Knightley.' I will not promise even to equal the elegant terseness of Mrs. Elton, by calling you Mr. K. but I will promise," she added presently, laughing and blushing, "I will promise to call you by your Christian name. I do not say when, but perhaps you may guess where__ in the building in which N. takes M. for better, for worse."
Oh, how this made me so very happy! The two of them acknowledging their banter throughout the years, doing so to irritate the other, with affection attached. Austen in her true form!
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Bellamarie in the building in which N. takes M. for better, for worse."
Who are N. and M.?
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One thing you can say for Frank: he is about the only person in the story with a sense of humor and fun. the story needs that to lighten it up.
But his fun is a mean fun: Emma catches it, in her mean remark about Miss Bates. But she feels real remorse, which Frank may not.
I worry for Jane in the marriage: I've seen husbands who do that kind of mean teasing of their wives in public situations where it's difficult for the wives to answer back. But the fact that Jane was willing to break it off, in spite of the fact it doomed her to a governess job, and answer him back at the picnic gives me hope for her not allowing that kind of mistreatment from him in the future.
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The second shock: when Harriet reveals that it's Mr. Knightley she now loves, and has reason to believe that he cares for her.
This is the pivotal moment of the book. Emma has an epiphany: she really is able to examine her heart for the first time. She realizes that she loves Mr. Knightley, but much more than that. When she sees the possible consequences of what she has done to Harriet, she not only laments what it will mean to her, she sees all the flaws of arrogance in what she has been doing.
Austen's novels are about who marries whom. But they are also primarily about character, as many of her titles show. "Pride and Prejudice". "Sense and Sensibility" (we would probably say logic versus emotion), Persuasion" (about how open we should be to being persuaded by others). Her heroines all have character flaws which they have to overcome before they can be happy. They must undergo trials until they have this realization.
This, in itself, was a radical innovation. The ideal at the time was that the heroine be perfect.
Austen did not come up with a one word title to describe Emma's flaw in the title. If you had to, what would it be?
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JoanK asked:
Austen did not come up with a one word title to describe Emma's flaw in the title. If you had to, what would it be?
Youth
Indulged
I don't really see these as flaws though. I think Emma is willing to take responsibility for her part in wrongdoings.
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To me a title could have been 'The Blossoming of Emma"
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'Who are N. and M.?' Halcyon asks. Wouldn't they be the man and woman who are exchanging vows in the marriage chapel?
Another exceptional quote from Chapter 53, Bellamarie. Will Emma never learn?
'She had been decided in wishing for a Miss Weston. She would not acknowledge that it was with any view of making a match for her, hereafter....'
It's still the first thing that comes to her mind, despite her dubious experience with matchmaking. Except for her matchmaking she might never have married Mr. Knightley. She was not going to lose him. Does anyone marry for love in the book? Except Harriet and Frank Churchill. Frank is the most difficult character to understand. Waiting for Mrs. Churchill to die before making his move. Alas.
Wishing for a girl reveals another significant thing about Emma. Her devotion to her father and her duty to be a comfort to him. Never will she marry Mr. Knightley unless he comes to live at Hartfield House. We've come full circle. In the beginning it was Mr. Woodhouse, Emma, and Mr. Knightley at the Hartfield hearth, and so it is in the end.
I've been so busy the last few days. Today I went for my Driver's test, compulsory at 80, and every two years thereafter. It includes a vision assessment, a review of driving rules, and something they call cognitive testing. What, the examiner wanted to know, do we do to stay mentally alert? What an opportunity for me. Read Jane Austen, I told them. A dandy discussion followed as each announced their favorite Austen novel. We all passed the test.
I believe Mr. Knightley married because it was expected of him, after reading Pride And Predjudice.
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If I were to write a title for the book, instead of Emma, using Austen's style, it would be:
Pompous and Pampered
I see more than one character being pompous, and pampered throughout the book, but Emma, the protagonist, is of course pampered by her father and Miss Taylor, and Mrs. Elton was surely pompous.
Oh Jonathan I have to respectfully disagree with you. The love between Emma and Mr. Knightley is overwhelming. He admits he began falling in love with Emma when she was thirteen. She with her banter, was too unaware of love to know she has been in love with him for possibly ever. When Mrs. Weston suggested Jane and Mr. Knightley may be a match, and also when Harriet confessed to having feelings for Mr. Knightley, Emma's reactions was nothing but a woman in love.
Her matchmaking is over, it was a mere sentiment of wanting Mrs. Weston's precious baby girl to have the best possible when she grows up. Austen was bringing this back to us, so it would bring about the cute comments of Mr. Knightley being there as well, for sweet Anna Weston, as he was for her, but not fall in love with her at thirteen. It was a sweet, and loving part in the book.
As for Emma never marrying Mr. Knightley if they would have to leave Hartfield and her father...yet one more loving tribute to the loyal daughter she is, and hopes for Mr. Weston to have with his dear daughter. Mr. Knightley loves this quality in Emma. He loves Mr. Wood house as well, and would never consider separating them, or himself from Mr. Woodhouse. This is undying, true love.....not expectation.
I fear you have been taken in by the harsh, unkind remarks Mrs. Elton shares of her opinion of the marriage.
Mr. Knightley's heart belonged to Emma for years, and I suspect he would have waited a lifetime for her, or never married at all if he could not have her. It's true Austen form, the two end up together out of love.
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Halcyon, the M and N stand for:
An allusion in Emma which is not a charade or a riddle
In the passage from Emma in which Emma Woodhouse promises to call Mr. Knightley by his first name "in the building in which N. takes M." for her wedded husband "for better, for worse", Jane Austen is directly quoting from the "Form of Solemnization of Matrimony" (i.e. wedding ceremony) from the Church of England Book of Common Prayer.
In this prayer book, when a person's name is to be said as part of a ceremony (such as baptism, etc.), then the place where the person's name should be said is generally indicated by the letter "N.", which stands for Latin nomen "name" (insofar as it stands for anything at all).
In the earlier versions of the prayerbook, this "N." occurred wherever either the man's name or the woman's name was to be spoken as part of the wedding ceremony. In most later editions of the prayerbook, in order to prevent any possible confusion as to where the man's name was to be spoken, and where the woman's name, two different letters have been used -- "M." was introduced to mark places where the man's name should be said, while "N." was left to mark places where the woman's name should be said. The differentiation was probably done in this way merely because the man's name is usually said before the woman's name in the ceremony, and "M." comes before "N." in the alphabet; as far as I'm aware, there is no deeper significance to the particular choice of letters for the man's and woman's names, and the letter "M." doesn't seem to abbreviate anything (in the way that "N." can be said to abbreviate nomen). (One ingenious suggestion, that "M." and "N." were intended to stand for Latin maritus "husband" and nupta "bride", must remain rather doubtful.)
Remember that "M." and "N." are never actually part of the ceremony as such (never spoken aloud), but are merely convenient little written markers to help tell the minister what he should say as part of the ceremony.
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JONATHAN: "What, the examiner wanted to know, do we do to stay mentally alert? What an opportunity for me. Read Jane Austen, I told them."
How absolutely wonderful!!!!
BELLAMARIE: fancy your knowing that! I skated right over that reference.
Emma's fault that hits us in the face is her snobbishness about class. This too is gentled by the end of the book, as she is willing to have the Martins to Highbury.
There is a message in the book that people need to "know their place". This is probably Austen, not Emma. Remember, this was part of the taken for granted of her class at the time, and part of their defense against a changing world. Just as in America it was taken for granted by whites that people of color were inferior.
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I like the names. Now, for your thought: how did Austen manage to lead us down the garden path again and again (well, some of us, anyway. I was clueless, the first time I read the book). Even after the surprise of Mr. Elton, , like Emma, kept misunderstanding the situation.
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Bellamarie, Thank you for the prayer book information.
JoanK, You mentioned snobbishness as being part of the cultue of the time. What does everyone think about Mr. Knightley being snobby? More, less or the same as Emma?
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Good question!
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JoanK.,
There is a message in the book that people need to "know their place".
If this is so, then why did Emma want Harriet to marry above her suspected illegitimate birth?
I did not see Emma as a snob, she was intuitive to Jane being reserved, and rightfully so, and she could clearly see Mrs. Elton was a social climber, and did not want to be close to her. Emma befriended Harriet, who was certainly under the expected class.
I did not feel Mr. Knightley was a snob either, he went out of his way to talk to Harriet, and Mr. Martin. He also talked with his servants and respected them, especially his housemaid, who he told Mrs. Elton would be upset, should he allow any other to help with his alfresco party.
Mrs. Elton was surely a snob.
Wondering about themes and messages, as JoanK.mentioned, I did a bit of a search, and I happened to come across these couple of sites, and thought them interesting. So glad I did not read them before finishing the book.
http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/emma/themes.html
http://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/e/emma/critical-essays/theme-of-emma
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So glad I did not read them before finishing the book.
Yes, that would have spoiled the fun.
Those are good notes, especially the Spark Notes. One of their themes, "the confined nature of women's existence", has always struck me strongly in this book. The notes speak of the "almost claustrophobic" scope of action, and I've always felt it to be somewhat oppressive. Emma is rich and privileged, but she is playing out her life in the small area close enough to walk, amid a very small cast of characters--nothing wrong with most of them, but by now there can't be any surprises. JoanK calls Emma a people person, and she certainly has to work pretty hard to find people to keep her interested.
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I was reading about Jane Austen's life growing up when I was searching sites yesterday, and she was 39 years old when she wrote the book of Emma. There were some interesting similarities she used from her true life, to the storied life of Emma. In reading this, it shows how Jane uses much of her life in all the books she wrote.
http://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/janelife.html
Just to mention a few from Emma:
Jane's father's name was George....Mr. Knightley's first name is George
Jane's niece's name was Anna........Mrs. Weston's baby girl's name is Anna
Isabella and her family go to the seaside each summer.....The Austen family also went to the seaside each summer.
Jane read a lot......Emma read a lot.
Jane's father was a Reverend.........Mr. Elton is a Reverend
Jane had one sister........Emma has one sister
Jane's family had a fairly respectable income.....The Woodhouse's have a fairly respectable income.
Jane went to the Abbey school....it is mentioned it was much like Mrs. Goddard's school.
Jane did a lot of reading with a library of 500 books.....Emma reads a lot and Mr. Woodhouse has a large library.
Jane's favorite brother's name was Henry.....Emma's nephew is named Henry
Jane's brother's name was Frank......In Emma we have Frank Churchill
The list goes on and on, but what I really thought a gem to come across is this:
There is a famous statement by one Mrs. Mitford that Jane was the "the prettiest, silliest, most affected, husband-hunting butterfly she ever remembers" (however, Mrs. Mitford seems to have had a personal jealousy against Jane Austen, and it is hard to reconcile this description with the Jane Austen who wrote The Three Sisters before she was eighteen).
Now I ask, could Mrs Mitford, indeed be our dear character, Mrs. Elton??? :o
Oh the fun you can have with so much information.
PatH., The notes speak of the "almost claustrophobic" scope of action, and I've always felt it to be somewhat oppressive. Emma is rich and privileged, but she is playing out her life in the small area close enough to walk, amid a very small cast of characters.
I got the sense from reading about Jane's life, she too lived close to the circle of comfort, as I see Emma does, and most of Jane's protagonists in her books, also seem to live like this.
Was it Elizabeth Bennett's sister Lydia, in Pride and Prejudice, who dared to run off with her boyfriend to elope, that is the only character Jane deviated from closely living like herself?
Rachel Trickett remarks that "Jane Austen's fools are to be delighted in, not detested"[9], a statement which perfectly applies to the figure of Lydia Bennet, the fool of the elopement-episode. Naively, she falls prey to Wickham, thus bringing shame over all of her family, although she does not do it on purpose. Her restricted point of view does not allow her to see the full consequences of her action. On her wedding-day she returns to Longbourn, prattling on like ever before, never even noticing that she is touching on weak spots in the circle of her family:
One more thing Jane does in most of her books, is have at least one character, who just rattles on, and on, and on. I sense it is to be comical, yet annoying.
Here is a most interesting read on the take of Jane's writings.
http://www.grin.com/en/e-book/60194/lydia-s-elopement-and-its-functions-in-jane-austen-s-pride-and-prejudice
PatH., One thing I have taught myself, is to not even read reviews, or interviews, that authors have done before I read a book. I absolutely love the fun in not knowing, and being shocked or surprised as I come to these parts in the books. My college granddaughter who has the love of reading like myself, was over just yesterday and we were talking about how it's so much fun not knowing. We both said we hate spoilers! She just finished a book about a teacher who is single, and of course I can't remember the name to save me. I so want to read the book. But I ask, is it possibly the one we are planning to read in July? If so I need to hold off.
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Spoilers don't work with Jane Austen. If knowing how it ends, spoils the fun, one isn't reading Jane Austen.
I like better what's said in Bellamarie's 'Oh the fun you can have with so much information.' And with disagreements it's twice the fun. My way of seeing it, doesn't make your way wrong for me. I like your way of seeing it just as much as my own. For example: you say that Mrs Elton is a social climber. But I wonder: would a social climber marry the vicar of Highbury? What's to climb? Perhaps finding a governess for Mrs Smallridge gives her another step up in some other circle. On the other hand, Jane Fairfax must see the prospect as confining. For her marriage would seem like freedom.
Must it end? This discussion has been delightful. Thanks, Joan. Thanks to all of you. What alternate, short title would I suggest for this Austen book? I would like to suggest VERVE AND VEXATION. These two traits strike me most about Emma. Both highlighted at the Box Hill picnic in Ch 43 (III,7)
'She was vexed beyond what could have been expressed - almost beyond what she could conceal. Never had she felt so agitated, mortified, grieved, at any circumstance in her life. She was most forcibly struck.
For the 'verve', I didn't have to look for more than Frank Churchill's announcement at the picnic:
'Ladies and gentlemen, I am ordered by Miss Woodhouse (who, wherever she is, presides,) to say, that she desires to know what you are all thinking of.'
It takes verve to run the show in Highbury. And Emma pays for it.
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I like that name, JONATHAN! But don't say goodbye quite yet. Now that we know the plot, there's still lots to discuss.
BELLAMARIE: thanks for the Spark notes. They suggest four themes for the book:
. Marriage and social status
. The confined nature of women's existence
. The blinding power of imagination and
. The obstacles to open expression
PatH says it is the confined nature of women's existence that struck her the most. How about you? Which, if any, of these themes struck you as you read the book?
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Meanwhile, who knew? here is Emma, the movie! I haven't seen this one, but look forward to it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4SjTZdp298
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JoanK, you really know how to mess up my evening. Instead of catching up on my paperwork, I've got almost 2 hours of Emma to watch. I've looked at a few minutes of it, and it looks very promising.
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JoanK. I just watched the movie. Delightful. I realized that Frank went to London to order the piano for Jane. Perhaps everyone knew this except me. Thank you for the link.
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Thank you JoanK., for the link. Oh boy! I am so excited to have this movie to watch. Halycon and PatH., good to hear I won't be disappointed watching Emma. I have never seen any of Austen's book made into movies yet. One more first for me from this book club.
Jonathan, I so agree with you. What fun would any discussion group be if we all saw things the same and felt the same. I looked forward to each and every post, so I could have a different perspective other than my own. I love how we all see characters differently, it says a lot about who we ourselves are as people. I think it gives an insight, to our own strengths and flaws, and how we deal with them. I am big on forgiveness, when someone shows me they are aware of doing wrong, so of course I was easy on Emma. In every book you need a Mrs. Elton.
JoanK., I like the blinding power of imagination!
I am a writer, without my imagination, blinding, and a bit wild at times, I would not be able to conjure up the great ideas for books I plan to write, now that I am officially retired as of Holy Thursday, when I closed the door to my last day care child. It was bittersweet, and my kids and grandkids treated me to a night out at Cinco De Mayo's, to help me end my night. That one margarita kicked my behind!
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ah so many of the characters are as I would picture them in your link to Emma, the movie, Joan K except Knightly. To me this actor is too put together in that I see Knightly as mature but with a vulnerable or empty core that he fills with making sure everyone is doing the 'right' thing where this Knightly looks to me as if he could care less however, he knows his place in society and as lord of his manor. Not a snob but certainly not lacking - a very self contained gentleman of means.
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I haven't had a chance to watch the movie yet. Going to try now.
BELLAMARIE: how exciting! I hope you enjoy retirement as much as I have. I'll look for your books in the future.
I wonder if it was imagination that blinded Emma so much as desire. She wanted things to be a certain way, so she saw them that way and ignored clues to the contrary. I can think of a time when I did that.
On the theme of marriage and social class: the Sparks note points out that "marrying up" was the only way a woman could improve her position in society. And that is what Emma wants for Harriet. But the message of the book seems to be that such marriages can be disastrous, as Mr. Weston's first marriage to a woman above him in status was and Mr. Elton's attempt to marry Emma.
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Finished watching the movie, and quite liked it. I liked the dance at the end with the six character going round and round each other: a synopsis of the book.
Of course, I always like the book better. Even a great actor can't make you see into a person the way great writing can.
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I hope to get a chance to watch the movie today once all the kids go home after our egg hunt and dinner. I always love the books better, no movie producer can take the place of the original writer's work. IMO
I remember reading the book, The Help, I finished it late at night, and myself and a couple of my girlfriends went to see the movie the next day. I was so upset, how they left out so many of the vital parts of the book. For me I saw in the book issues with race, abuse, and social injustice, with only slight humor. The movie missed these themes so badly, and seemed to take scenes from the book that were not humorous, and made them so in the movie. I sat through the entire movie telling my friends how they destroyed the book.
It's way late for me to be up, I just got home from Easter Vigil Mass, where my daughter in law was initiated into the Catholic faith. The Mass was 3 hours long, 8:30 p.m. til 11:30 p.m., a little sweet and spirits were served afterwards, and we got home at 12:30 a.m. Now, I must go to bed to meet everyone at Mass at 11:00 a.m.
Thank you JoanK., I think I am going to really enjoy being retired.
(http://www.g-dos.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/312565_pc.jpg)
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Good night!
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A gorgeous day--sunny, and going to be warm--perfect for this joyous celebration.
Happy Easter to all.
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Talk about perfect timing--this book review was in this morning's Washington Post. The Austen Project has been getting good modern writers to rewrite all of Austen's books in modern settings. Emma has just come out--rewritten by Alexander McCall Smith. The reviewer liked it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/a-modern-retelling-of-emma-by-alexander-mccall-smith/2015/03/30/96a0b370-cf49-11e4-a2a7-9517a3a70506_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/a-modern-retelling-of-emma-by-alexander-mccall-smith/2015/03/30/96a0b370-cf49-11e4-a2a7-9517a3a70506_story.html)
I placed a hold on it at my library. It's still on order, and I'm 65th in line.
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Gotta have it!
One more point: how does Austen so effectively lead us down the garden path? According to John Mullan in "What Matters in Jane Austen", it's by pioneering the use of "free indirect style." This mean telling the story from the point of view of the character without using the first person. That way, we forget that the author is telling us what Emma THINKS is happening, rather than what IS happening. He says "So confident did she feel about her control of the technique that she made her plot depend on it."
Here is the example he gives. Emma believes, falsely, that Harriet is in love with Frank Churchill. When Emma tells Harriet of the death of Mrs. Churchill (freeing Frank to marry), we have "Harriet behaved extremely well on the occasion, with great self command. Whatever she might feel of brighter hope, she betrayed nothing. Emma was gratified to observe such proof in her of strengthened character."
How subtle. We now know that Harriet had no such feelings at all. But Austen has managed to make us believe she does, while being strictly honest. "Whatever she might feel", not she DID feel. Austen even reminds us these are Emma's belief: "Emma was gratified to observe such proof of strengthened character." We are observing Emma seeing exactly what she wrongheadedly wants to believe, but think we are observing what Harriet is doing.
Austen would have made a great lawyer!
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PatH., what a great find! After reading the article I must say, I'm not so sure I would like a modern day Emma, after knowing Austen's Emma of her era. The excitement for me in reading Austen, is the very fact these stories take place in a time and place I have never lived in. I love reading and imagining these fictitional characters, in the clothing and homes, with the restrictions of their time. Today's time, is an everything goes. One other reason I don't think I would be happy with this modern day Emma, is it is written by a man, so we are getting a male's point of view. For me, only a woman can know and portray another woman's feelings. Jane writes through her own life experiences, this new modern day male writer, has no familiarity of living the life of our eighteenth century Emma.
The whole purpose for me loving Jane Austen, is because of all the special feelings ONLY she can bring to her readers. I'm not ready to accept Austen's beautiful writing made into a desperate housewife type of story. Some things are better left alone. There is only one Jane Austen, and it's because of who she was, that her protagonists in her stories are who they are.
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'...pioneering the use of "free indirect style." This means telling the story from the point of view of the character without using the first person.'
So that's what it's called. Thanks, Joan, I thought there was something unique about the narrative style. Who is telling this story, I wondered, the author or the character herself? In places it gets entertaining, when, after getting Emma's 'account', the author steps in and reminds the reader of it, adding her own objective version. A spinoff is that all the other characters live and act in Emma's shadow. Given her pride and predjudices she can mislead the reader as well as she misled Harriet. But, what a wonderful way of getting to know Emma.
I will certainly look for a 'freee indirect style' in the Alexander McCall Smith book. I'm not too optimistic about finding it, even anything in the 'grand' style of Jane Austen.
I found the movie very entertaining. Just as I had imagined the characters, except for Mrs Elton. She suffers badly in Emma's view. But, as the author tells us, others in Highbury liked her.
But let's continue reading. Why does Emma marry Mr. Knightley? And the others, too, for that matter. I was surprised at how little love there was in all the matchmaking.
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Just uncovering the restrictions is an adventure and then to see how folks expressed their lives within those restrictions is amazing - I can barely feel the restrictions any longer that were so many that were simply a part of life like waking up when I was young before WWII to even have a good feel for the restrictions on both men and women 200 years ago.
I notice today when dancers attempt to express the jitterbug and other dances of the 1940s they do it with a different kind of freedom expressed in their body movements rather than the restrictions that were so inborn so that especially girls were showing more body freedom but there was a reserve, especially how the upper arms stayed rather close to the body, that I wonder if it can even be copied without having an inner compass to the mindset that shows up in the body.
To adapt this story - I can see the highlights of the story line but in today's freer society it will be a different story. To begin with unless you are limiting the setting to an office, no one lives their life within a village setting so the concept of containment would have to be manipulated. But who knows - the author may see things in society today that are not as obvious to us so that the story could have relevance.
whoops writing at the same time Jonathan - Yes, so many stories before mid nineteenth century are about folks marrying as if closing on a homestead - within the past couple of years I remember reading a story by Jhumpa Lahiri, Pulitzer Prize winner, that featured parents of a young collage age man and the mom was explaining to him their relationship of deep love that grew however, they were matched by family back in India and married there only having seen each other briefly before the ceremony and never alone. I am guessing the lucky ones in history were able to have what we value in a marriage today. I'm thinking they had one thing in their favor - the field was narrow so they might just as well make it into the most beautiful garden they could unless, the guy had the energy and fly by skills of the proverbial honey bee. Now a woman/girl, married or single got a red letter for her dalliances unless she had the power that came with money and knew of a few private nooks - hmm I wonder if that is how the old phrase nooky came about?
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I just finished watching the movie, and I am simply amazed at how the actors captured the true personalities of Austen's characters. A superb job!
I did notice in the very beginning of the book, the narrative was being told by someone other than Emma, and I remember pausing in wondering who it was. Of course, it had to be none other than Jane herself. I got so engrossed in Emma's character in the book, I lost sight of the fact it was not Emma herself, telling the story.
No, I can't see anyone ever capturing the true characters in a modern day writing. Austen is a classic, to be appreciated for her time.
Jonathan, Why does Emma marry Mr. Knightley? And the others, too, for that matter. I was surprised at how little love there was in all the matchmaking.
There is no doubt in my mind why Emma marries Mr. Knightley, Austen and the movie producers made it plain and simple, it was because she, and he loved each other. And, no, this is not my imagination.
Poor Harriet, she marries because it is of convenience, it seems obvious, because she went from wanting to accept Mr. Martin, to easily being persuaded to want Mr. Elton, then to have feelings for Mr. Knightley because he shows her kindness, then back to Mr. Martin, since Mr. Knightley convinced him to try again.
Mr. and Mrs. Elton seem to have married for status and position. Although she does use the endearment cara sposa, so perhaps she does love him.
As for Mr. and Mrs. Weston and Frank Churchill and Jane Fairfax, it is love, and possibly for the women, the good fortune, to keep them from being a governess the rest of their lives.
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BELLAMARIE: "There is only one Jane Austen, and it's because of who she was, that her protagonists in her stories are who they are."
I agree. The books I have read in the Austen project (modern rewriting) have been uniformly disappointing, and I expect McCall Smiths to be so too.
If you haven't read all of Austen's books yet, I envy you. Happy reading. "Pride and Prejudice" is the most popular, and many think the best. "Sense and Sensibility" and "Persuasion" are right up there with it. "Mansfield Park and "Northanger Abbey" drop down just a bit IMO. "Lady Susan" is an early novella, worth reading. When Austen died, she left a fragment of a book, "The Watsons". Several have tried to finish it, but poorly. I'd say not worth reading unless you're desperate for Austen.
Some of her letters are also available -- her sister, Cassandra, burned many of them. I'm guessing because of her frankness and sharp tongue.
We Austen nuts have read everything she wrote, and want more, more! We're the ones who gobble up the Austen imitators, even when they aren't very good.There are a whole library of them out there. One tells the story of Emma from Jane Fairfax's point of view. It's "Jane Fairfax" by Joan Aiken, and is a pretty good job.. Another that I enjoy (mystery lover that I am) is a mystery series by Stephanie Barron with Austen as the detective. It's based closely on Austen's letters, and is a good way to learn about her life. There are others that pick up characters that Austen left unmarried (like Darcy's younger sister from Pride and Prejudice") and give them a romance.
The only modern version that I would recommend is "Bridget Jones' Diary" which is based on "Pride and Prejudice", but is fun in it's own right. (The sequel is based on "Persuasion"). But she doesn't try to make her heroine like an Austen heroine: she is very today. For the movie, Colin Firth, who played Darcy in P&P played mark Darcy in Bridget Jones.
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I don't think Harriet married for convenience, even though from a practical standpoint Mr. Martin is a good catch for her. She is warmly affectionate, and easily thinks she is in love, but she has obviously had strong feelings for Mr. Martin from the start, and had lingering regrets in turning him down.
I'm too lazy to try to find it, but someone says somewhere that Harriet will be safe with Martin. This is true. She's rather gullible, and could easily fall for someone who wouldn't treat her right. Now she will be protected, surrounded by people who care for her--Martin's sisters as well as himself. and in a situation she has already learned to like from her stay in the previous summer.
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JoanK, I was writing while you were posting. I agree with your assessment of the Austen followups, though I haven't read as many as you. The Stephanie Barron mysteries are good if you like mystery stories. In the first one, Barron does too much of putting in bits that an austen nut realizes are lifted from the books, but she stopped that. They should be read in order.
Death Comes to Pemberley is P. D. James' follow-up to Pride and Prejudice. She doesn't catch the tone properly, but it's pretty good, and it's fun to see her take on the later life of the characters.
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Here is the list of Stephanie Barron Jane Austen mysteries. The first in the series is "Jane and the Unpleasantness at Seagrove Manor." They could be read in any order, but they follow her life chronologically.
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/b/stephanie-barron/
They are good, but don't really capture her sense of humor (no one is able to do THAT!)
There is also another detective series with Elizabeth and Darcy from Pride and Prejudice as the detectives: I don't remember the author, but they aren't very good.
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Thank you JoanK., and PatH., for your opinions on those who have attempted to write beyond Austen, with her characters. I will be giving Stephanie Barron's series a look at. The OCD in me will have to begin with the very first one, and read them in order.
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All the additional books that include characters similar to the Jane Austen characters remind me of as kids when a particular good book was read we wanted more and felt bereft when it was over so that we often asked our parent to read it again - I am thinking nothing really satisfies like the reading of the original although other authors may offer us a smile as we recognize their characters having some of the same idiosyncrasies as the Jane Austen characters.
An entire month and I have each time had to have an inner dialogue saying something like - no it is not Austin - it is Austen - I wonder if they say it differently and it sure is not after Saint Augustine as Austin, so I wonder who or what is the background on the name Austen.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
March/April Book Club Online
Emma
by Jane Austen
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/emma/emmacvr.jpg) | "I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like” Jane Austen of Emma.
Will you like her, the heroine who Austen claimed was most like herself, and who inspired a movie called "Clueless"? If not, there's lots more to like in this classic novel of love, misdirection, and social class. |
Schedule
March 1-5 Part I: Chapters 1-7
March 6 - 12 Part I: Chapters 8-17
March 13 Part I: Chapter 18, Part II Chapter 1-6
March 19 Part II: Chapter 7-13
March 23 Part II: Chapters 14-18 Part III Chapters 1-4
March 27 Part III: Chapter 5-9
March 30 Part III: Chapter 10-end
Text of Emma (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/158/158-h/158-h.htm)~~~ Emma review (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/nov/04/100-best-novels-jane-austen-emma) ~~~ Austen related books (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/jun/15/what-matters-in-jane-austen-review)~~~ Jane Austen biography (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/austejn/austen.html)
Discussion Leader: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
There is nothing that can replace the joy of reading a book for the first time, but for me, seeing the movie Emma, after finishing the book, was like icing on the cake! They cast the actors to fit the characters perfectly. Loved how in the movie it showed the looks Emma and Mr. Knightley gave to each other. You could clearly see they were meant to be together. But....what the movie did not capture for me, was the spunkiness of Emma, that I found in the book. I was her cheerleader reading the book, because of her being so spunky.
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Can someone help me? I wanted to recommend a book for upcoming discussions, but it appears the last posts were from a while back other and Barb StAubrey's. Is something wrong with the link? Anyway, here is my suggestion. I posted it in the suggestion link, but fear no one is checking in. Do we have a list of books for our next discussion?
My granddaughter who is a Sophomore in college just finished reading the book:
Educating Esme' Diary Of A Teacher's First Year by Esme' Raji Codell
http://www.amazon.com/Educating-Esm%C3%A9-Teachers-Expanded-Edition/dp/1565129350
My granddaughter is in early childhood education courses, and raved about this book. It is in the form of epistolary, the author's diary, a style of writing which I happen to love.
I have not read this book yet, but intend to very soon. Please alert me privately, ASAP if this could be our July teacher read.
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See the Suggestions for Future Book Discussions.
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It's a rare book where you ask at the end if you like the heroine. it was revolution nary in it's time when, I think I said, heroines were supposed to be without flaw (and, as someone said, also without a sense of humor!) Emma has both.
Austen says ""I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like.” What's the verdict? Do you like her? BELLAMARIE says "I was her cheerleader reading the book, because of her being so spunky." What do the rest of you think?
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Yep, spunky and full of energy - where as Harriet seemed more docile and dear Mrs. Weston was a kind down to earth lovely women. Jane to me was like a blank canvas waiting for a chance at her life.
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'BELLAMARIE says "I was her cheerleader reading the book, because of her being so spunky." What do the rest of you think?'
Thanks, BELLAMARIE. It was 'spunky' that helped me find the 'v' word 'verve' to go with 'vexation' for an alternate title in the Austen fashion P&P. S&S.
I have to disagree with you, Joan. I believe it's Jane Austen who has the sense of humor, not Emma. But Emma didn't need it, if we can believe Mr. Knightley, for whom she is'this sweetest and best of all creatures, faultless in spite of all her faults.'
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faultless in spite of all her faults :D ;D ;) could only be said by a man in love...
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Yes, Barb, only a person in love can love you with all your faults, and in spite of them.
Jonathan, I loved that statement from Mr. Knightley, thank you for it. Mr. Knightley just wanted to be certain Emma did not go too far with her carefree, imaginative mind, so as to lose the love and respect of others.
I agree with you Jonathan, the humor came from Austen, being provided for Emma and others to give the reader the enjoyment of the comical situations. You don't expect it from Austen, but she never disappoints.
I just can't imagine why Jane did not think her readers would like Emma. Did she not know we could see and accept, her human nature? Is it because of the times, when women were not liked if they were not the status quo of manners, and discipline? Interesting thought.
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JoanK, thank you for leading this discussion. It was a great introduction to Jane Austen. Anyone have any suggestions as to what order I should read the other Austen books? Bellamarie, congratulations on your retirement and thank you for all your research and commentary. PatH, your comments always seemed so practical and your knowledge of the times was always very helpful. Barb, you bring the most interesting tidbits to the group. And what would we have done without Jonathan's sense of humor. Hope to "discuss with you" again! Thank you all, it was fun.
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Lucky you, Halcyon, to have unread Austen books ahead of you. I'd start out with Pride and Prejudice, which is most people's favorite (mine too) and then Persuasion. Persuasion is her last book, written in her final days, and if she had lived, she would probably have expanded and revised it a bit, but it's a close runner-up to P & P. After that, it doesn't much matter. Mansfield Park is most people's least favorite, and Northanger Abbey is rather slight, being a spoof of the Gothic novels that people of that time, including Austen, loved.
There is a wonderful 6 hour long BBC movie of P & P, with Colin Firth and Jennifer Ehle. They had enough time not to have to cut the story, and they kept most of the dialog from the book intact. Some speeches which look stilted on the page come out natural when acted. There's also a good movie of Persuasion, with Ciaran Hinds and Amanda Root. They did have to simplify for a 2 hour film, but they made good choices, and it's superbly cast.
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'I just can't imagine why Jane did not think her readers would like Emma.'
Perhaps, Bellamarie, the readers are wondering why Jane was so fond of Emma. While everyone else in the book ends up 'poor', Emma ends up in seventh heaven:
'She wanted to be alone. Her mind was in a state of flutter and wonder, which made it impossible for her to be collected. She was in dancing, singing, exclaiming spirits; and still she had moved about, and talked to herself, and laughed and reflected, she could be fit for nothing rational.'
It's even 'poor Knightley'. Of course that comes from Mrs Elton, who won't be invited to have dinner with him any longer, but look what happens to him in the end. He'll be living at Hartfield, providing company for poor Mr Woodhouse, and keeping the poultry house secured against chicken thieves. (I can't stop laughing.)
Emma will always be a daughter first. For that I love her.
I just read your post, Halcyon. Your were right when you suggested this story has all the drama of a midsummer night's dream.
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Halcyon, I agree with PatH., I would advise Pride & Prejudice next, and then Persuasion.
Thank you JoanK., for your insights into the times of this era.
I really enjoyed discussing Emma, with all of you. Looking forward to our next discussion.
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I have enjoyed this discussion so much. HALCYON: I'm so glad you have joined us: you add so much to discussions. I agree with Pat and Bellamarie, but then don't forget to read Sense and Sensibility, and then see the movie with Emma Thompson.
BARB, of course you always have insights none of the rest of us think of. As does BELLAMARIE with your thoughtfulness. Let us know how your retirement goes. And JONATHAN: I can always count on you for humor and a different twist. Of course, PAT always has my back -- the rest of you have no clue how much she does.
I goofed: I thought this discussion would take two months, so we have no new discussion scheduled for April. (just as well, I HAVE to get started on the income tax!!) But the pre-discussion for May will start soon, under PatH. I'll see you all there.
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This was great JoanK - thanks - the breadcrumbs Jane Austen leaves for her readers really had us going - everyone shared so much and I loved the enthusiasm for the story and for each other's thoughts -
What a relief to come into our Senior Learn monthly book discussion and know we can focus on what we are doing - reading and getting as much as we possibly can from the writer - rather than reading and watching, reliving the pain that appears to be the world at this time -
Amazing to realize the world was not a calm and peaceful place when Jane was writing her novels so it can be done - for me that is the thing I am choosing to come away with from our discussion - this was our reality and with the same approach to life I can make it an example of how to focus on the simple and my community of friends for my daily life at home.
Thanks to all of you for making this discussion an icon to what life can be - I have always loved reading novels and now I know why - they help me create in my head additional friends and life experiences and reading with y'all only rounded out and added to my head pictures of the world Jane Austen 'painted'.
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Thanks for reading order suggestions. What books are to be discussed next?
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That's to be put out in a day or so, but if I can get a quorum, I'll lead the first book of Sigrid Undset's trilogy Kristin Lavransdatter.
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Please explain the quorum. Who votes?
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Please explain the quorum. Who votes?
You do. I'll put out the suggestion in the SeniorLearn discussions, probably with a link to a pre-discussion page, and people will sign up to read. When there are enough that it looks like we could have a viable discussion, it's a go. It's rare not to get enough, but it can happen.
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PatH., I am not familiar with Sigrid Undset, I went to my ibook store and library, it shows:
Kristin Lavransdatter
Kristin Lavransdatter, I The Wreath
Kristin Lavransdatter, II The Wife
Kristin Lavransdatter, III The Cross
Kristin Lavransdatter - Husfrue
Just not sure which book you are actually talking about. I wanted to place it on hold or purchase it for the next discussion.
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The three books of the trilogy, titled differently in the different translations, are:
The Wreath (The Bridal Wreath)
The Wife (The Mistress of Husaby)
The Cross
We're going to read the first one, The Wreath. There are two translations, the original one by Charles Archer, and a recent one by Tiina Nunnally. They are very different in style, the Archer having an archaic tone, and the Nunnally a simple, straightforward one. Try to get a look at both, to see which you like. I prefer the Nunnally, but opinion isn't unanimous.
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One more bit about Emma.
Jonathan It's even 'poor Knightley'. Of course that comes from Mrs Elton, who won't be invited to have dinner with him any longer, but look what happens to him in the end. He'll be living at Hartfield, providing company for poor Mr Woodhouse, and keeping the poultry house secured against chicken thieves. (I can't stop laughing.)
At the beginning of the Emma movie that JoanK recommended there is a night scene of a poultry house, chickens screeching (or whatever chickens do) and feathers flying. I didn't get the reference until I read your post. Haha.
I too am not familiar with Kristin Lavransdatter but can't wait to get started.
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Finally - after how many years that Kristin Lavransdatter was mentioned as a possible read and always another book sounded more current or more exciting - I think we have seen the book mentioned for the last at least 10 years and probably longer - I am so looking forward to our finally getting to Norway...! Found a used copy that includes all three books on Amazon for only $2.70 plus shipping.
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Well, it may not be current, but i think it's exciting.
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Yep - :D :-*
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Thanks Barb, for the heads up of the book on Amazon. PatH., Does it make a difference, or will it matter to the discussion group, should we use different ones?
Halcyon, if you noticed, in the movie, it begins and ends with the chickens flocking, the significance, this is what makes poor scared Mr. Woodhouse to accept Emma to marry Mr. Knightley, so he will come live at Hartfield, so Mr. Wood house will feel safe, and protected.
I asked myself, did Emma make this up, so she could get her father's approval? I know they had problems such as this happen, but....did our wise little scheming Emma use this as a ploy? Guess we will never know for certain, but the look on Mr. Knightley's face in the movie made me suspect, indeed she used this knowing how her father over reacts to everything. Hmmm.....
Jonathan, I forgot to give you kudos, for noticing the story begins and ends the same way. You mentioned earlier, it begins, and ends with Emma, Mr. Knightley, and Mr. Wodehouse, all sitting by the fire. Ironically, in the movie, it begins and ends with the chickens flocking. What ever shall we make of this???? Not a coincidence I would imagine. ::)
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BARBARA: " for me that is the thing I am choosing to come away with from our discussion - this was our reality and with the same approach to life I can make it an example of how to focus on the simple and my community of friends for my daily life at home."
Right on!
HALCYON: I didn't get the beginning of the movie, either: I even went back to see if it was, indeed, Emma. At the end, it sort of clicked, but I'll bet anyone who hadn't just read the book wouldn't get it.
I've never tried leading a discussion in small chunks like that, I just fell into it. But I think it was good for Emma: it gave us a chance to linger over the small details, which are the joy of Austen. It wouldn't work for most books.
We've been immersed in a different society this month. Now we're going to medieval Sweden and another new society, also from a woman's point of view. I'm looking forward to finding parallels and differences.
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Bellamarie Do you think Mr. Knightley had anything to do with the chickens? I suspected Emma at the end of the movie but hadn't considered Mr. Knightley.
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How are the mighty fallen! Mr. Knightley as the chicken thief!? I love it!
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You don't think Mr. Knightley is too upright to pull a trick like that? ;)
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PatH Love can do strange things to people. He seemed very distracted and not at all himself at times in the movie. It's fun to think about. It's hard to let Emma and Mr. Knightley go.
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Hmmm....maybe, Emma & Mr. Knightley came up with the chicken plan together. After all, they wanted his approval. I just couldn't resist asking....
"Which came first?" The chicken thief, or the plan? Hee hee
I agree, Halycon, it is difficult to let go of Emma. When you read Pride and Prejudice, Elizabeth Bennett will have the same effect on you. But, as JoanK., has pointed out, PatH., has another girl named, "Kristen" waiting for us.
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PatH., Does it make a difference, or will it matter to the discussion group, should we use different ones?
I don't think it will make a difference to the discussion group, though I'll know better when I've compared a bit more. Nunnally says in her forward that the older translation leaves out one bit in The Wreath, probably because it was thought to be too sexually explicit. I haven't come across anything very explicit so far. She also says that bits totaling 18 pages are left out of The Wife, which deal with Kristin's spiritual development, and that could be important if we change our minds and decide to go on, but it would probably all come out in the discussion anyway.
Where it might make a big difference is to you personally, if you find one of the two more appealing. I like the Nunnally for it's spare, low-key style, which reminds me of the sagas, but of course it was Archer I was reading decades ago when I gobbled up the book for the first time.
I remember when we read the Iliad, some of us couldn't stand the translations that others of us lloved.
I'm in the process of getting a pre-discussion sign-up page going, and we'll all hash it out there.
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Here's what I'm posting to steer people to the Kristin Lavransdatter discussion:
For the next book discussion, if we get enough people, I propose to discuss the first book of Sigrid Undset’s great trilogy, Kristin Lavransdatter. If you’re interested, come and tell us HERE (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4658.0)
If you’re not sure, come on over and watch, and we’ll talk you into it. It’s a really good read.
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Guess who cried at the wedding. Did Mr. Knightley see it? Of course he did. What a jealous lover he was all along. He took notice of everything. Suspected everybody. Good luck, Mr. Knightley. And now to ge EMMA out of my own mind. I'm sure I'll be rereading it after a while.
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JONATHAN: There is no cure for reading Jane Austen. The only relief is to read more (I've read all her books at least four times), read the knockoffs, or become a "Janeite". The Jane Austen Society of America has 4,500 members. they celebrate Austen's birthday in costume. they write "new" Austen stories. they hold symposiums, they do blogs.
Here is a fun article about Austen fandom in America:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21036818
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I reluctantly say goodbye to this discussion. But I'll see you in the next one in Medieval Norway.