-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
April/May Book Club Online
Kristin Lavransdatter
by Sigrid Undset
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kirsten_lavransdatter/Heidal_Sel_Norway.jpg) |
This Nobel prize-winning book is the tumultuous story of the daughter of a 14th century Norwegian nobleman-farmer.
I loved it when I first read it decades ago, and now there’s a new translation which makes it even better.
Schedule: April 21? Jørundgaard, Chapters 1-4
|
Discussion Leader: PatH
-
Welcome, to all who would like to read Kristin Lavransdatter. This is a great, sweeping book, a rich portrait of life in 14th century Norway, and the memorable heroine and the people who filled her life.
This is a trilogy, a very long work. Let’s read the first book, The Wreath (The Bridal Wreath in one translation). After that, we can continue on our own. Or if we really want to, we can go on together.
There are two translations, the original one by Charles Archer, and a recent one by Tiina Nunnally. They are very different in style, the Archer having an archaic tone, and the Nunnally a simple, straightforward one. Try to get a look at both, to see which you like. I prefer the Nunnally, but opinion isn't unanimous, and I first learned to love the book with the Archer.
-
That striking church is in Sel, Norway, where the fictitious Kristin is supposed to have lived.
-
Looking forward to this - we have had it on our suggestion list for years so I love we are reading it - I ordered mine used and no where can I see who did the translation - it was published in 1987 would that be a clue?
-
Yes. That's got to be Archer, since Nunnally's translation is copyrighted 1997. See how you like it, and if you want, quote me a passage and I'll give you the other version.
-
Great PatH - I only ordered it and it comes from a vendor other than Amazon so I do not expect to receive it till maybe the end of next week but probably the following week.
-
This sounds like an interesting book. Count me in! I have placed it on hold at my local library for my ipad. I see on Amazon I could purchase it for a small cost (used) if I can't get it from my library.
-
In spite of it being on some school reading list, my library had plenty of copies, and both translations. I own it, too, but my copy is buried somewhere.
-
Yes, I'd like to read Kristin Lavransdatter. I own one of the books, but have never gotten around to reading it. This is the first SrLearn book for discussion I've wanted to read. I've ordered it from the library, but the library edition does not say who is the translater. Guess I'll find out when I receive it. I see the Penguin edition available at Amazon is the Nunnally.
Marj
-
I'll be reading along with you. I'm going to order the Nunnally version; it received good reviews. Can't wait. Bellamarie, I laughed out loud at your "What came first?" joke.
-
Marj, and Halcyon, welcome. It's good to see you here.
-
Here's a link to Undset's page in the Nobel Prize website:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1928/ (http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1928/)
If you click on her name in blue to the left of the picture, you get a short menu, and "biographical" is a brief bio written by her, which has some amusing bits.
-
Halycon, I'm glad to see you are going to join us. LOLOL I could not resist that which came first joke. :o
Went to my library today, just to get out of the house and our main library has it so I am going to try to get it before someone else does. I too will be using the Nunnally version.
-
Interesting it was 1928 where as I read a site that said 1948 a year before she died - I wonder if she won another different prize in '48
looking at the Noble site I thought wouldn't it be a wonderful experience to read at least one book for each Noble winner in Literature - there were quite a few we have tackled in the past - we are so few now I wonder if we could even get up enough interest - I am rally shocked at how few of us there are - recently joined a local reading group and all they do is go around the table and get an impression that a discussion follows but no indepth research or understanding - oh oh oh we have been so blessed and did not realize it.
Well there is no sense in bemoaning - best thing is to get as much from what we have as possible. The adventure of a new author or a new genre keeps us tapping into our courage and willingness for risk. I'll take it as long as I can.
-
If you're going to read something by each laureate, you've got your work cut out for quite a while as there are 111 of them. Here's the list.
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/ (http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/)
I was surprised to see I've read something by 21 of them, and not counting Undset, we've already talked about at least 5 of them here--Rudyard Kipling, Pearl Buck, T. S. Eliot, Jose Saramago, and Alice Munro.
-
since I have read the work of most of the poets on the list in addition to some of the other authors I have almost read half the list but I still think it would be a great experience - at 110 prize winners and reading a book a month excluding December it would take 10 years - it would be like another project we often hear - reading all of Shakespeare's plays that are only 37 taking about 3 and 1/2 years at the rate of a play a month.
-
Oh wow, this is very exciting, to me. I don't know anything whatsoever about Norway, not one thing. I didn't know they even had a Medieval culture (duh), have read no Norwegian but Ibsen, whom I loved, and the opening of the book on Amazon hooked me.
I'd like to participate. I doubt sincerely i can say anything coherent, or particularly useful, but I expect to profit tremendously from the thoughts of those assembled and any background that comes up.
Robert Bernard, who just died in 2013, one of my favorite Mystery writers, taught at the University of Tromsø, (how is that ø pronounced with that strike thru it?) which I thought always seemed so romantic, the furthest point of Norway(or is it more properly "farthest?") It's actually 200 miles within the Arctic Circle, and he wasn't Norwegian. Those two writers are the closest I've ever gotten to Norway. (Didn't a recent survey say Norway is the happiest country on earth?)
What a great selection!
-
Here is a link about an old love triangle that played out in one of Norway's medieval Stave churches - the short short video shows a few closeups of the Stave which is the wooden Churches that are still used for worship in Norway - similar to the one that PatH found for us and is used in the heading.
http://www.visitnorway.com/us/about-norway/history/stave-churches/?media=video&autorun=true
-
I read the book years ago and liked it, but don't remember much. I look forward to reading it together.
I'm embarrassed to admit that in the Emma discussion I said it was about Sweden! I hope any Norwegians who look in will forgive me. It shows how much I have to learn about Norway. My one exposure was when the Winter Olympics were held there years ago. I was bowled over by the beauty of some of the scenery.
-
I received my book from Amazon today and wondered when we are going to start reading?
-
I received my book from Amazon today and wondered when we are going to start reading?
First, a WARNING: If you have the Nunnally translation, and want to read the book without spoilers, DON'T read the introduction, because it summarizes much of the story.
We can start reading whenever we want, but we won't start talking about the book until most everyone has gotten the book and had a chance to start reading. And I have a feeling that at the moment everyone's doing their income tax; they've been quiet everywhere except in the library, where they're going to town about the Mitford sisters.
My job for today is to figure out how to divide up the book, so I can't tell you yet what the first chunk is. If you want to avoid reading ahead: The Wreath is divided into 3 parts, Jørundgaard, The Wreath, and Lavrans Bjørgulfsøn. You'll be safe if you read the first 3-4 chapters of Jørundgaard, 50-60 pages, and by then I hope I will have figured out the divisions.
-
Will everyone please tell me when they have the book? That will help with figuring out timing.
-
I have my book Thanks for the spoiler alert.
-
So do I.
-
I just spoke with my main library and they are putting my book on reserve so I will have it tomorrow! Thank you for the heads up about the spoilers. Will begin reading tomorrow the first 50-60 pages. Let us know when we can begin discussing it.
Yes, PatH, we are all a twitter about The Mitford Sisters. I am actually going to be picking up four of their books tomorrow. I can't wait.
-
Please enlighten me about The Mitford Sisters? I looked online but couldn't get a clear idea of how many books there were and what order they were in. Stories sound fascinating. Right up my alley, so to speak.
-
I have the book. :)_
-
Halycon, MaryJane has gotten me interested in The Mitford Sisters. There are six sisters, and four of them were authors. There are many books between the four of them. I just checked out five of their books. Maryjane and Steph recommends starting with, The Sisters The Saga of the Mitford Family by Mary S. Lovell, and/or Love in a Cold Climate by Nancy Mitford. I can't wait to begin reading about these six sisters. I would love it if we could do a discussion on one of their books in the near future.
I got my Kristin Lavransdatter book today, it seems I have the very old edition. The inside page says, NOBEL RIZE EDITION February, 1929 Reprinted fifteen times, Seventeenth printing. It has all three:
Original Title: Kristin Lavransdatter
Kransen (The Bridal Wreath) Translated by Charles Archer and J.S. Scott
Husfrue (The Mistress Husaby) Translated by Charles Archer
Korset (The Cross) Translated by Charles Archer
copyright, 1920, 1921, 1923 by H. Aschehoug & Company, Oslo
Manufactured in the United States of America.
So it appears I do not have the Nunnally translation. Will this make much of a difference in reading and discussing it PatH.?
-
I don't think so, unless you don't like the style. All of us who already read the book and loved it read that version.
-
Still have not received mine yet but if you want to start that is fine with me and I can catch up...
-
Shoot cannot believe this - the Amazon ad said all three books were in the one volume and then sure enough when I clicked where the order was available it was only the last book the cross - so I just did a two day Amazon for the first book the wreathe - shoot shoot I would not have purchased for 2.67 the one book when they are all available as individual reads for a penny plus shipping and then to add insult to misery it turns out to be paperback - not too often do I get burned in an order but this one was just my not reading thoroughly - today is Friday so it will probably be either Monday or Tuesday of next week - not sure if they are or not delivering on Sunday as they did for a couple of months.
-
What a bummer. I think Amazon is still delivering on Sunday.
-
Barb, we are not in a hurry to begin, we can wait for you. So sorry about your mix up.
All this reading and computer/tablet use has caused my eyes to be very tired. Went for an eye exam today and needed a stronger prescription for reading. No big surprise. Can't wait for the new glasses to come in 10 days.
-
OH horror, horroris, I thought it was a MAY discussion! It's next WEEK?
I'll catch up as soon as I can. :)
-
Most of us have our books now, and Barb will get hers today or tomorrow. Is Tuesday too soon to start? Wednesday? If that's too soon, we can start later. Let me know. Marj, do you have the book?
The first section, Jørundgaard, divides naturally into two. Chapters 1-4 tell of Kristin's life from age seven to about twelve, and chapters 5-7 start when she's 15. Lets make the first chunk 1-4, about 60 pages.
-
Tuesday works for me.
-
Tuesday is fine with me.
-
Tuesday is fine. I've read chapters 1-4.
PatH says she's under a tornedo watch, so if you don't see her, that's why. She doesn't expect tornedo damage, but she does expect to lose power. But we will be undeterred and continue until she reappears.
-
Oh heavens, I hope PatH., is okay.
In my book chapter 5 begins on pg. 54, and chapter 6 begins on pg. 66. So I will read to either of those chapters. The end of Jorundgaard ends on pg. 86.
-
I'm fine; nobody expects tornados to come right where I am, but the associated thunderstorms often produce power outages, and if anyone's power goes out, I'm a likely candidate, and I didn't want to slow things down. So, talking between the raindrops, you want to read (or talk about) only through chapter 4, stopping at the beginning of chapter 5, which starts with the springtime of Kristin's 15th year.
We'll likely spend a fair bit of time on the first chapter or so, getting into the framework of the book, so it won't matter if you haven't read it all.
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
April/May Book Club Online
Kristin Lavransdatter
by Sigrid Undset
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kirsten_lavransdatter/Bjolstad.jpg) |
This Nobel prize-winning book is the tumultuous story of the daughter of a 14th century Norwegian nobleman-farmer.
I loved it when I first read it decades ago, and now there’s a new translation which makes it even better.
Schedule: April 21-? Jørundgaard, Chapters 1-4
Questions:
Chapter 1:
How does the medieval life seem to you? Can you imagine yourself there?
How do Kristin’s feelings for her two parents differ?
On the trip in the mountains, Kristin thinks she sees an elf-maiden beckoning to her. What do you think really happened? Why does Undset include this incident?
Chapters 2-4:
As he shows Kristin the church at Hamar, Brother Edvin chats to her about art. What do we learn about cultural influences in Norway?
Ragnfrid seems terribly guilt-ridden. Why do you suppose this is?
Fru Aashild reminds Kristin of the dwarf-woman. What does this suggest? Is it important?
Do you think any of Aashild’s remedies did any good?
|
|
Discussion Leader: PatH
-
Welcome to 14th century Norway--a rather different world. The days of the vikings are over, the saga stories have already happened, the Greenland colony is almost forgotten, but the viking spirit still lives on.
Norway has been Christian for 300 years, but the old paganism and superstitions aren't forgotten. Trolls and spirits lurk in the countryside wherever you get away from the protection of human settlements.
What was it like, living then? What was it like for the young Kristin, growing up?
-
Not sure where to begin, but I have to admit, I was a bit intrigued, and frightened when Kristin spotted the dwarf-maiden.
pg. 17 But all at once she was aware of a face amid the leaves__there stood a lady, pale, with waving, flaxen hair__the great, light-grey eyes and wide, pink nostrils were like Guldsveinen's. She was clad in something light, leaf-green, and branches and twigs hid her up to the broad breasts, which were covered over with brooches and sparkling chains.
The little girl gazed upon the figure, and as she gazed the lady raised a hand and showed her a wreath of golden flowers__she beckoned with it.
I have not read much about medieval times, so I ask, was the dwarf-maiden trying to lure Kristin to come with her, and if so why? The dwarf-maiden scared the horses, and Kristin's father was certainly upset, placing his gold cross necklace around Kristin's neck as a protective measure. He did not want anyone to tell Kristin's mother about this. Why?
-
Bellamarie, you anticipated the question I was writing while you were posting. Yes, the elf-maiden was trying to lure Kristin to come with her. I'm not quite sure what would happen then, but Kristin surely wouldn't come back to her family. Lavrans didn't want anyone to tell Ragnfrid because he didn't want her to know the danger Kristin had been in.
But Undset knew there aren't really elf-maidens, and this is a fairly realistic book, so what really happened, and why did Undset put in this incident.
-
So, if Undset is writing this fictional story about medieval times, which I assume people back then were superstitious, and believed in these dwarf-maidens why would this not seem realistic? It reminds me of reading a children's storybook to my daycare children about leprechauns, on St. Patrick's day. The people of Ireland seemed to believe in leprechauns although they never could catch one.
I have to wonder if the dwarf-maiden would have kept Kristin trapped, as a special prize to own. Undset seems to describe Kristin's hair, and features, as something rare and beautiful, to be revered, and to possess.
Good question, PatH., Why indeed, does Undset put this in the story? For me it injects fear, and caution of being alone.
-
A few pages before the elf-maiden incident there is a rather long conversation between Lavrans and Isrid insinuating that deep in the mountains there are those household "that pay neither taxes nor tithes", people who have "exhausted their peace in the village." Lavrans says "I've seen herds of cattle and flocks of sheep, but I don't know wether they belonged to people or to the others." He also talks about once seeing three boys who bared their teeth at him. Could these people be bands of outcasts who make their living by thieving? Having said that I wonder who "the others" are. Maybe Undset is simply trying to make the point that some of the old superstitions still prevail. Look at those here who insist that Sasquatch roams the woods and maybe he does. Or Nellie.
-
I am struck with the atmosphere of the book: a mixture of idyllic beauty and terror. the elf lady fits into that. You never forget that bad things may be lurking among the beauty. Even Kristen's beauty is somehow scary.
It sounds like the elf-lady was someone Kristen already knew about. I'm guessing that Undset is using a well known Norwegian superstition?
It's hard to know why she included it without having read the rest of the book. The implication is that there is something otherworldly about Kristen, or her fate. Especially since the book is called the wreath. Does this otherworldly aspect of the plot continue?
-
I'm intrigued and confused by the compound where Kristen lives. She's always going into different houses. Has anyone else figured it out?
-
Sounds like - I have to get into the story - I am delayed - but from what I am reading here sounds like she meets Huldra who lures men into endless cave systems or lures them into the forest in order to secure her freedom - Huldra usually appears out of the rain and mist, friendly then entices till she cannot be resisted. There is another folk myth that she has a long cow's tail that she hides tying it under her skirt till she gets married in a church and then her tail will fall off and she will become human. She is dangerous and when old becomes very ugly however, she becomes gentle and caring to anyone who makes her, through marriage a Christian.
Supposedly she was a married lady with lots of children and only had time to wash half of them when either god or an angle comes to the cottage and ashamed she hides the dirty children. As punishment she is hidden from everyone and lives in the forest only seen when the air is full of water.
I remember visiting Leeds UK in either 1979 or 80 and the young women I was working with researching old needlework took me on a tour telling me about this farm house and that one where this or that corn doll was recently used to ward off the spirits that brought in one house polio and in others any contagious diseases. And how a house recently sold that had a history of happy marriages and when they cleaned it out for remodeling they found all these hundreds of year old braided hearts tucked in the beams and spaces in the attic - and even here in the states, just outside Austin in a smaller community, Lockhart only 30 years ago they had to close down half the school and build another (which they had planned anyhow but this hustled it up) because the girls were so terrified that La Llorona was in the water spouts of the girls bathroom they would not use the bathroom and soon would not even attend school.
And so I can only imagine getting lost in the forests and never finding your way back was a fear and would be explained as the work of a fairy or goblin or for the Norwegians, trolls or Huldra. In this case the story could be the demise of either Kristin or her father who could have been lured away and she would be left to find her way home - I need to read to see what the fear was all about or if it relates to the story in another way.
-
Barb, glad to see you here. Don't worry about delayed, the first section reads fast, and I think we'll all need some time to sort out things.
I know Huldra in a benign form, though not by name--she's in a book I couldn't find today. She's a troll maiden, who becomes human through Christian marriage, losing her tail. She makes a good wife, and, because of her origin, knows a lot of ways to keep the farm prosperous.
I've done some digging since I posted the question. The elf-maiden lures young girls into the mountain to be brides of the mountain king. Of course they aren't seen again. It fits with your suggestion of the fear of goblins, trolls, or elves as explanation of people who disappeared. That must have happened a lot. Kristin could easily have disappeared on her little escapade.
-
Well, Barb, I can not wait for you to get your book and catch up. Your insight is always so interesting. Now, my heavens you have just about spooked me out of my chair reading your posts. Interesting you speak of tails and weddings, because the witch-wife Lady Aashid, is called in when the baby Ulvhild is injured, and Ragnfrid the mother feels the priest can not make the child well. This witch-wife says, " Ay, have you not heard that all evil drags a long tail behind it?"
Also, Kristin, thinks the witch-wife seems like the dwarf-maiden she saw years ago. When she tells the witch-wife about seeing the dwarf-maiden and how she offered her the golden wreath and she refused it, Lady Aashild tells Kristin, "You were wise to fly, since you were only a child then. But have you never heard of folk who took the gold the dwarfs offered, and after bound the troll in stone?"
Lady Aashid tells Kristen, " But you, Kristin,--you should be wedded to a man bred in knightly ways and curteisie__."
I get the feeling Kristin's mother and Lady Aashid could be related or have a secret. Something has Ragnfrid very upset and shameful.
PatH., Once again we were posting at the same time. Your explanation of Huldra, who becomes human after a Christian marriage, and knows a lot of ways to keep the farm prosperous set a light bulb off in my head! Ragnfrid is said to be very well with property, and Lavrans includes her in the taking care of the property. Is it possible Ragnfrid was Huldra, and that is the shame & secret she and Lady Aashid share?
Halycon, I did read the family lost three sons, I wonder if the three ruffians spotted is reference to them in some way. Lavrans, seems to have a soft spot for the poor run down people.
-
I'm intrigued and confused by the compound where Kristen lives. She's always going into different houses. Has anyone else figured it out?
It's kind of confusing; here's what I make of it, by combining information in the backs of the two translations. Instead of having a big farmhouse with many rooms, you had a number of one-room buildings, each with its own function, one or at most two stories high. These were arranged around two courtyards. The inner courtyard had rooms for daily life--the big hall, kitchen, storehouses, kitchen, weaving room, maybe servants' quarters, and at Jørundgaard, a steward's house. The other courtyard (it's called outer, but it doesn't surround the inner one, it's next to it) has the farm-related buildings--barns, stables, etc. The buildings of a courtyard were sometimes linked by a fence.
Here are some pictures I found. They don't have any documentation, so I don't know if these are old, or replicas or what, but they give the idea.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/101401429086250504/ (https://www.pinterest.com/pin/101401429086250504/)
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/101401429086250491/ (https://www.pinterest.com/pin/101401429086250491/)
-
It seems like a harsh life. You're carrying food from the kitchen through snow and rain. The hall is heated by a fireplace in the middle, with a hole in the roof for the smoke to get out. There isn't much privacy. The big hall has a bench along each wall, a fireplace in the middle, and a long table in front of the bench on one side. There are two real beds in the room, one for the master and mistress, with maybe one or more of the children (Kristin sleeps with her parents at the beginning of the book) and one for more children. Any leftovers have beds made up on a bench, with the servants if there isn't a servants' house.
-
WOW! PatH., Thank you so much for the links. It sure is nothing like I had pictured in my mind.
-
I'll be able to catch up with y'all by tomorrow - I can see how we in this country kept separate quarters going for many years to keep the main house from the kitchen fires the kitchen on farms and ranches was a separate building and then slaves in the south and cowboys in the west were in in separate quarters.
-
The sleeping arrangements reminded me of Angela's Ashes where kids and clothing and blankets were piled together willy nilly just to keep warm. I wonder if there were cases of sexual abuse and how it was dealt with.
-
The houses look very modest, but we mustn't forget that Lavrans is an important person--a minor member of the gentry. He had been a king's retainer, and when they pass through Hamar he's invited to dine with the bishop. He's fairly rich, too. He owns a lot of land, which is farmed by tenants, and keeps on acquiring more, they have some silver dishes, though not apparently enough for everyone, and he's enlarging and improving his house.
In a way he's the medieval equivalent of Mr. Woodhouse or Mr. Knightly.
-
I wonder that too, Halcyon, but don't have any answers. The lack of privacy would make it harder to get away with, and the rules for sexual conduct were pretty strict.
-
The pictures are really interesting. I suppose it was easier to heat them that way, and you only needed to heat the room you were actually using.
In the second picture, there are white things on the side of one of the buildings. I suppose it's some kind of design?
-
Ooooh! I clicked on one of the pictures and got to a whole album of them, including the inside of the Hall. Here's the first, and you can go on from it to get the rest.
http://hjerleid.trykker.com/2010/08/25/jørungard/jorundgard-85/ (http://hjerleid.trykker.com/2010/08/25/jørungard/jorundgard-85/)
-
Just picked up my book before leaving town for a weeklong trip. I have started reading the first part and feel like it's an adult Heidi! Kidding, just kidding!
-
Welcome, Annie, I'm glad you got your book. The first 4 chapters will go very fast, by which time I'll have the rest of the questions up. ;) It's going to diverge from Heidi a fair bit.
-
I read that the sagas were a huge influence on Undset, and it's easy to believe. Nunnally's translation reads like a saga--the spare, understated style, the rather straightforward narrative, with feelings described briefly if at all (Undset puts in a lot more inner thoughts, though). Archer doesn't have the style, but the narrative is there.
Evidently the old ballads are a big influence too, and the book is full of things that a Norwegian would recognize as references to ballads, plus a lot of the plot comes from a ballad. This is frustrating, since none of these are available to English-speakers, but ballads tend to have pretty universal themes. Certainly I devoured the book without knowing about the ballads.
-
PatH, Would you enlighten us about the sagas? Or a good place to look.
-
On line are a few sites that reproduced some of the Sagas
Here is a rather extensive list of downloadable Norwegian Sagas - http://www.norsemyth.org/p/books.html
Here in the Gutenberg is Helmskringla - http://www.gutenberg.org/files/598/598-h/598-h.htm
And here is a PDF for Eglis - http://www.vsnrweb-publications.org.uk/Egla/Egils_saga.pdf
The history of Norway shows a nation that was secondary to what is now a separate nation, Iceland and Greenland - both were important as part of and not just an outpost to Norway - Denmark had control of Norway for a few centuries - and the area of the Vikings was not as defined as we imagine - all to say that the Icelandic Sagas are about Norway
Here is a page about the Norse gods - http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/sagas.html
This is a nice attractive page with links to some Norse Sagas - http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/sagas.htm
-
The sagas are kind of a special taste. They are stories, mostly Icelandic but some Norwegian, which started out as oral history, were written down, often copied and re-copied, changing along the way. They are myths, history, family history. The history and family history ones were meant to be accurate, but after a few copyings you can't be sure. I've read three: The Graenlendinga Saga and Eirik's Saga (Erick the Red) deal with the settling of Greenland in the late 900s and the discovery and attempt to settle Vinland (now shown to be Nova Scotia) around 1000. Egil's Saga is the story of Egil Skallagrimsson, who was both a psychopathic murderer and a renowned poet.
The two that Undset particularly liked, which are much admired for their literary quality, are Njal's Saga (Burnt Njal) and Laxdale Saga. They are complex stories, with family feuds and squabbles, spanning generations.
Many of these are available in paperback.
Here's a link which lists a huge number of them. I didn't know there were that many. If you go to the tab labeled Index, and click on anything in the "English" list, you get a translation, though I didn't care for the one I looked at.
http://www.sagadb.org/ (http://www.sagadb.org/)
-
Barb, you were posting while I was writing. Thanks for all those links. Now I know where my afternoon is going to go.
-
Barb and PatH Thank you for the links and the history lesson. Needless to say I know very little about that part of our world.
-
most of us don't, I'll bet.
-
Before I got my book at the library I had started reading the sample on my ipad which was: Translated by Tiina Nunnally
copyright Tiina Nunnally, 1997 (Originally published in Norwegian as Kransen by H. Aschehoug & Company, Oslo, 1920)
As PatH., says, Nunnally's translation reads like a saga--the spare, understated style, the rather straightforward narrative, with feelings described briefly if at all (Undset puts in a lot more inner thoughts, though). Archer doesn't have the style, but the narrative is there.
My book from the library is: Translated by Charles Archer and J. S. Scott
copyright 1923, 1925, 1927, By Alfred A. Knopf, Inc. NOBEL PRIZE EDITION February, 1929
Since I have read the first few chapters from both books, I must say I like the translation by Charles Archer much better than Nunnally. I get the feel for the land, people and era in Archer's translation, it puts me right there. I like the notes and the true essence of their language.
Although, in the ibook translated by Nunnally, it has the Introduction, which provides us with much information about Sigrid Undset. I especially like the very first quote of hers:
If you peel away the layer of ideas and conceptions that are particular to your own time period, then you can step right into the Middle Ages and see life from the medieval point of view__and it will coincide with your own view. And if you try to reproduce precisely what you have seen, the narrative form will follow automatically. Then you will write as a contemporary. It is only possible to write novels from your own time. __Sigrid Undset
Halcyon, Unless someone has had the good fortune to experience visiting this part of the world, I would imagine very few of us have much knowledge of it as well. Google is a great way to help us. Thank you all for the great links you are providing for us.
Getting back to the story, does anyone else get the feel Ragnfrid and Lady Aashid could be related? They certainly are keeping a secret between them for sure.
-
Bellamarie, There is a sentence, after Kristin had been collecting dew, when Ragnfrid lay thinking, "Fru Aashild never mentioned that they knew each other in the past, and that frightened Ragnfrid quite badly." Why would it frighten her?
There is also the conversation about Fru Aashild's "glory days". It seems like there are hidden meanings only the two of them understand.
I don't know if they are related but the certainly have a past.
-
How do Kristin’s feelings for her two parents differ?
Early in Chapter 1 Ragnfrid is described as a "mournful spirit" while Lavrans is said to be a "lively spirit". Kristin's spirit seems to match her father's. What fun to leave the dreariness of everyday life with her mother to adventure with her father.
-
Bellamarie, I'm glad you ended up with the translation you prefer. It's definitely not a "one size fits all" choice.
Yes, that conversation sounds like the two women have a past, and it's not always clear whether Aashild is talking to Ragnfrid, Kristin, or herself. Don't forget that Jørundgaard was Ragnfrid's inheritance, and she grew up near there.
Yes, Halcyon, it's easy to understand why Kristin was happy to go off with her father, but it was too bad of Ragnfrid to lay a guilt trip on her: "are you so happy then, Kristin, to be going so far away from me, and for such a long time?" When Ulvhild is born, Ragnfrid eases up a bit, mush to Kristin's delight.
-
When Ulvhild was born it is like Ragnfrid comes to life.
pg. 34 Ragnfrid doted so on this new baby that she went on suckling it during the second year of its life; wherefore, on Sira Eirik"s counsel, she left off some what her strict fasts and religious exercises while she had the child at breast. On this account and by reason of her joy in Ulvhild, he bloom came back to her, and Lavrans thought he had never seen his wife so happy or so fair and kindly in all the years he had been wed. Kristen, too, felt that great happiness had come to them with this tender little sister. That her mother's heavy mood made a stillness about her home had never come into her thought; she had deemed it was but as it should be that her mother should correct and chide her, while her father played and jested with her. But Ragnfrid was much gentler with her now and gave her more freedom; petted her more, too; and so Kristin little heeded that her mother had much less time to tend her.
After the accident Ragnfrid says to the priest: "I have lost so many, priest; I cannot lose her too!" She then says, " None of my children have I loved like this little one__if she too be taken from me, full sure I am my heart will break." "I can not live without Ulvhild"
I read they lost three sons, and when Ragnfrid was pregnant for Ulvhild, they were hoping to have a son. But Ragnfrid was thrilled with the little girl. So, it seems Kristin was not close to her mother, and her father doted on her to make up for it. Now I can see why he did not want anyone to tell Ragnfrid about the dwarf_maiden approaching Kristin. The thought of Kristin being in harms way, the idea they could have lost yet another child would have been too disturbing for Ragnfrid.
-
Bellamarie, you've prompted me to put in a comparison of the two translations. Each has its own rhythm and merits, and sometimes I like one better, sometimes the other.
P. 38: Ragnfrid loved this new child so much that she continued to nurse her even after she turned two. For that reason Ragnfrid followed Sira Eirik's advice and refrained from participating in her usual strict fasts and devout rituals for as long as she had the child at her breast. Because of this and because of her joy for Ulvhild, Ragnfrid blossomed; and Lavrans thought he had never seen his wife look so happy and beautiful and approachable in all the years of their marriage.
Kristin also felt it was a great joy that they had been given her little infant sister. She had never thought about the fact that her mother's somber disposition had made life at home so subdued. She thought things were as they should be: her mother disciplined or admonished her, while her father teased and played with her. Now her mother was gentler toward her and gave her more freedom; she caressed her more often too, so Kristin didn't notice that her mother also had less time to spend with her.
P. 43: I have lost so many, priest, I cannot lose her too.
and: Never have I loved any of my children as I have loved this one. If she too is taken from me, I think my heart will break.
-
PatH., thank you for the comparisons, it does indeed show a stark difference in the style, and yes, each has it's own rhythm and merit. For me, Archer's reads poetically, where Nunnally's has been modernized, the poetic feel taken out. In just these comparisons, in Archer's I feel the depth of Ragnfrid's loss, and how the family felt about her living in like a depressed state, until Ulvhid was born.
It's kind of like two people drinking a cup of tea, both tea bags are Earl Grey, but one steeped the tea a bit longer, giving more of the true essence of the flavor.
-
No where does it say the birth order of the children. I wonder if Kristin was born after the three boys or if she was the eldest? Do you think there could have been some mystery surrounding her birth? Just making wild guesses here.
What happened to Ragnfrid that makes her think she is so worthless and God is punishing her for all her sins?
On Page 41 there is an exchange where her brother Trond says " No doubt she means that I am the one who caused this (the accident)". His sister shot him a look of hatred and replied "Trond know what I mean." What is that secret and is Fru Aashild privy to it? Many secrets to be revealed.
-
It doesn't say in the part we've read, but the eldest was a boy. I think all three boys were born before Kristin, but I'm not sure.
-
A couple of tid bits today - I think those who translated in the 1930s and even into the 40s were by and large more poetic -
I had read when I was still in High School the E. Allison Peers translation of The Dark Nigh of the Soul and The Accent to Mt. Carmel - my old Doubleday paperback acquired soon after for the grand sum of 25 cents was packed away with other memories and when my life took a tumblesault I needed the comfort and direction of St. John of the Cross and simply purchasing a copy over at St. Eds - was not yet popular and we did not yet have Amazon much less the internet. Well this copy was translated by Roy Campbell, S.J. - the difference for me was so stark I thought maybe I was dreaming that I had received so much when I was glued reading several times the books not realizing the difference was in the translation - Sure enough I found and dug into my boxes - and there was the beauty of language and what for me was a clarity of intent -
It could be that since the Peers translation was my first and I did read that translation several times it was more than a lack of beauty and clarity but looking for the comfort of memory - but i have compared since and I think we were more willing to decipher thoughts that start in the negative to make the point about the positive where as today we are offered books written more like advertisement copy that clearly gets to the point often using simpler words or words with such clarity as compared to a nuanced word with shades of meaning and therefore takes some of the poetry of sound from a sentence.
I too have the older Archer translation and what I find as a wonderful addition is not only the explanation of the compound room by room with a couple of sketches of the compound and of the interior of the main hall but it also listed the book of Norwegian Folk Tales and the author that Undset preferred - Norwegian Folk Tales by Asbjornsen and Moe. Yep, found a used copy on Amazon - not prime so it may take a couple of weeks. Not sure if the copy will have all the stories these two collected and published since they appear to be the Scandinavian counterpart to the Brothers Grimm and Charles Perrault.
And then to that hall and as someone here questioned the lack of privacy - I am remembering the scene in Dances with Wolves when the Costner character is chastised for being nosey when Kicking Bird is under the blanket with his wife. They too were sleeping lined up along the side of a large shelter with furs for bedding.
-
I get the impression all three boys came before Kristin as well, because she does not make any mention of brothers, and by those paragraphs we provided it shows Kristin has been a bit neglected emotionally by her mother.
Yes, lots of secrets to be revealed, I suspect. I wonder why Lady Aashild felt this, " Ay,'would be best for you if you took after Lavrans, both in mind and body, too."
What did this mean? " Oh! these are words, words, and only words, Lady Aashid." "Well," said the other, "truly Ragnfrid, there is not much that's worth buying so dear as with one's life." "Nay, but there is," said Ragnfrid passionately; and she whispered so it could scarce be heard: "My husband." "Ragnfrid," said Lady Aashild, in a low voice, "so hath many a maid thought when she starve to bind a man to her and gave her maiden hood to do it. But have you not read of men and maids who gave to God all they owned, went into cloister or naked into the wilds, and repented after. Ay, they are called fools in the godly books. And 'would. Sure be sinful to think God cheated them over their bragain,"
Is Lady Aashild implying Ragnfrid, gave her soul for her husband, and now God is making her pay for it?
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
April/May Book Club Online
Kristin Lavransdatter
by Sigrid Undset
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kirsten_lavransdatter/Bjolstad.jpg) |
This Nobel prize-winning book is the tumultuous story of the daughter of a 14th century Norwegian nobleman-farmer.
I loved it when I first read it decades ago, and now there’s a new translation which makes it even better.
Schedule: April 21-25 Jørundgaard, Chapters 1-4
April 26-? Jørundgaard, Chapters 5-7
Questions:
Chapter 1:
How does the medieval life seem to you? Can you imagine yourself there?
How do Kristin’s feelings for her two parents differ?
On the trip in the mountains, Kristin thinks she sees an elf-maiden beckoning to her. What do you think really happened? Why does Undset include this incident?
Chapters 2-4:
As he shows Kristin the church at Hamar, Brother Edvin chats to her about art. What do we learn about cultural influences in Norway?
Ragnfrid seems terribly guilt-ridden. Why do you suppose this is?
Fru Aashild reminds Kristin of the dwarf-woman. What does this suggest? Is it important?
Do you think any of Aashild’s remedies did any good?
|
|
Discussion Leader: PatH
-
"Fru Aashild reminds Kristin of the dwarf-woman."
Thank you for pointing this out -- it blew by me when I read.
Again it reminds me of the feeling I had throughout the reading that there are always two worlds there: the everyday world we all know and another darker world.
there are two ways I read this. In folk tales, the darker world always overwhelms the everyday world, and the main character is lost to it. So I wonder if (and when) this might happen to Kristen. her beauty and golden hair seems like a danger, tempting this other world to come for her.
On the other hand, maybe this is just what life in Medieval Norway was like. Everyone believed in this dark world, and saw glimpses of it wherever they went. Maybe Kristen will just continue to live with this mixture.
-
JoanK., I am getting the feeling we are dealing with two worlds here.
Lady Aashild and Ragnfrid know the darker/witch/dwarf/magic world, and Kristin is unaware of it. Kristin's beauty seems to attract those in this other world to her. Why would this be? Lady Aashild mentions her sister's son "Erland Nikulausson of Husaby" might have been a good bride groom for Kristin. I wonder how Ragnfrid would feel about Lady Aashild fixing Kristin up with the witch side of the world? Not so well, is my guess.
-
I wonder how Ragnfrid would feel about Lady Aashild fixing Kristin up with the witch side of the world? Not so well, is my guess.
That's my guess too, given Ragnfrid's strict piety.
-
Do you think any of Aashild’s remedies did any good?
But whenever Fru Aashild came over to her, Ulvhild's face would light up with joy. Eagerly she drank the refreshing and sleep inducing brews that Fru Aashild prepared for her. She never complained when the woman attended to her...
Fru Aashild seemed to have a calming effect on Ulvhild and potions that helped the child sleep could only ease her pain and assist the recovery process.
Kristin collected dew from cabbage leaves and Lady's Mantle. Several summers ago I bought a Lady's Mantle at a farmer's market. The vendor told me if I collected the morning dew and used it on my face I would have beautiful youthful skin. I've never tried it but it was fascinating to read someone doing just that.
-
It looks like it's time to move on. Do you agree? Could we start talking about the next section Sunday? It's pretty short, only 35 pages. This will be chapters 5-7, which will finish Jørundgaard, the first section of the book.
Barb and Annie, I know you got a late start. Will this work for you? We can stay in Jørundgaard, both sections, until you are ready to move on.
-
Halcyon, that's fascinating about the Lady's Mantle. Some folk traditions live on, sometimes for good reasons. It's a good thing I've given up on beautiful youthful skin though, because I don't get enough dew around here to wet my face. Besides I've earned every wrinkle by hard work.
Folk remedies are interesting; a lot of them have some real basis for working, but not all. Aashild must have had some local remedy that was a pain reliever or sleep promoter, and Ulvhild's trust would help her relax.
-
I'm fine - I find it interesting to compare the place in history this is taking place in this story by what was going on in Britain and the continent at this time.
1301 - Edward I of England invests his baby son Edward as Prince of Wales
1305 - The English capture and execute William Wallace
1306 - New Scottish rebellion against English rule led by Robert Bruce. Robert I, the Bruce crowned King of Scotland (to 1329) at Scone
1307 - Edward I dies on march north to crush Robert Bruce. Edward II, King of England (to 1327)
1310 - English barons appoint 21 peers, the Lords Ordainers, to manage Edward II's household
1312 - Order of Knights Templar abolished
1314 - Battle of Bannockburn: Robert Bruce defeats Edward II and makes Scotland independent
1326 - Queen Isabella and Roger Mortimer sail from France with an army to rebel against Edward II of England
1327 - Parliament declares Edward II deposed, and his son accedes to the throne as Edward III. Edward II is hideously murdered, nine months later
The Great Famine of 1315–1317 (occasionally dated 1315–1322) was the first of a series of large-scale crises that struck Europe early in the fourteenth century. Most of continental Europe (extending east to Russia and south to Italy) and Great Britain were affected. The famine caused millions of deaths over an extended number of years and marked a clear end to the period of growth and prosperity from the eleventh to thirteenth centuries.
The Great Famine started with bad weather in spring 1315. Universal crop failures lasted through 1316 until the summer harvest in 1317, and Europe did not fully recover until 1322. The period was marked by extreme levels of crime, disease, mass death, and even cannibalism and infanticide. The crisis had consequences for the Church, state, European society, and for future calamities to follow in the fourteenth century.
-
huh I did not realize how entwined the vikings were with the Irish - this takes place before the 1307 that is one of the early dates for our story.
The Vikings conducted extensive raids in Ireland. They founded Limerick in 812, then established a settlement near Waterford in 853, invaded Dublin and maintained control until 1169, and founded trading ports in Cork in the 9th century. The Vikings and Scandinavians settled down and intermixed with the Irish. Literature, crafts, and decorative styles in Ireland and Britain reflected Scandinavian culture. Vikings traded at Irish markets in Dublin. Excavations found imported fabrics from England, Byzantium, Persia and central Asia. Dublin became so crowded by the 11th century that houses were constructed outside the town walls.
The Vikings pillaged monasteries on Ireland's west coast in 795 and then spread out to cover the rest of the coastline... During the first 40 years, the raids were conducted by small, mobile Viking groups. By 830, the groups consisted of large fleets of Viking ships. From 840, the Vikings began establishing permanent bases at the coasts... The Irish became accustomed to the Viking presence. In some cases they became allies and married each other.
In 832, a Viking fleet of about 120 invaded kingdoms on Ireland’s northern and eastern coasts... During the mid-830s, raids began to push deeper into Ireland, as opposed to just touching the coasts. After 840, the Vikings had several bases in strategic locations dispersed throughout Ireland.
In 838, a small Viking fleet entered the River Liffey in eastern Ireland. The Vikings set up a base, which the Irish called a longphort. This longphort eventually became Dublin... The Vikings also established longphorts in Cork, Limerick, Waterford, and Wexford.
One of the last major battles involving Vikings was the Battle of Clontarf on 23 April 1014, in which Vikings fought both for the Irish over-king Brian Boru's army and for the Viking-led army opposing him. Irish and Viking literature depict the Battle of Clontarf as a gathering of this world and the supernatural. For example, witches, goblins, and demons were present. A Viking poem portrays the environment as strongly pagan. Valkyries chanted and decided who would live and die.
-
Ok what I am getting from all of this - another aside - during this time the vikings ships are of low draft and can easily be dragged over land and so taking interior water ways were able to push through central Europe all the way to Turkey bringing back all sorts of trade goods from far away lands.
And so what I am seeing here is a successful proud people - of the middle and late middle ages the Norseman are in their golden era - England has not reached yet its golden era - Germany is so broken into small holdings and France always had an aura about itself since they never broke with the Church and see themselves as the extension of the Roman Empire taking on for themselves that world success that shows up in their art and letters.
Now you have the Scandinavian area almost like the U.S. today - new as compared to the glories of Europe and yet we have made the accomplishments that run the world today and we've been doing it for the past couple of hundred years - that is what Scandinavia must have been with its unique ability to explore and trade all over the Continent, Greenland was theirs and they even venture into the new World. The fact they are an outpost living crudely compared to the middle class of the Continent and even to Britain, like the US we lived for a couple of hundred years crudely compared to England and only matched their level of living standards in the late nineteenth century - so too Kristin and her family is living in a golden era that gives everyone a sense they can do whatever it takes to succeed. No matter how rustic their life they are not slaves to any man.
-
Yes, PatH., I am ready to move on to the next chapters.
-
I'm ready too.
-
Okay, we can start talking about it tomorrow. Although some important things happen, it's short, and will probably not take long to discuss.
Kristin is now fifteen, and is dealing with different issues.
-
The Great Famine of 1315–1317 (occasionally dated 1315–1322) was the first of a series of large-scale crises that struck Europe early in the fourteenth century. Most of continental Europe (extending east to Russia and south to Italy) and Great Britain were affected. The famine caused millions of deaths over an extended number of years and marked a clear end to the period of growth and prosperity from the eleventh to thirteenth centuries.
The Great Famine started with bad weather in spring 1315. Universal crop failures lasted through 1316 until the summer harvest in 1317, and Europe did not fully recover until 1322. The period was marked by extreme levels of crime, disease, mass death, and even cannibalism and infanticide. The crisis had consequences for the Church, state, European society, and for future calamities to follow in the fourteenth century.
Thank goodness I'm pretty sure we aren't going to see any cannibalism here. That bad weather was the start of a climate change--a cold spell of several centuries, which affected all of Europe and finished off the Greenland settlements.
-
What does anyone think of Ragnhild spending the night crying herself to sleep in the barn after the Christmas feast?
-
The Christmas feast.... too much drinking, off color stories, fighting, a pushy priest from her brother's, a rift with her kinsmen and an invalid child to care for.....a bit overwhelming for Ragnfrid or the thought that her faith was letting her down. Or why were people behaving in such a manner on a Holy Day.
I wondered why Kristin's last name was Lavransdatter then realized it came from both her parents, Lavrans Bjorgulfson and Ragnfrid Ivarsdatter.
-
There's definitely more going on with Ragnold than we know. It could be her remembering the three sons who aren't there, but their may be something else too.
-
A store house in Norway still in use over 600 years later
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9rPjyocfn_A/UYyg6JYWxnI/AAAAAAAAWEE/9V2z_qNaKCU/s1600/IMG_2852.jpg)
Wheee found it - an example of how buildings were protected from rats and mice - see the large round stones under the house - that is it - the rats and mice could not walk upside down for that long a distance and so they fell off.
(http://barryhikes.com/alps2003/5-lindau-zermott/images/europelarge254.jpg)
-
Woman in re-made 14th century dress - Bocksten Man; well preserved man's clothing 2nd half of 14th century, Vaberg Museum - Norwegian shoe from 1300
BooHoo not nearly as colorful and romantic as the clothing heavily embroidered and worn in the seventeenth and eighteenth century which was closer to my visual while reading the story. ah so...
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vtZBMQ6mq28/SrIrWzzUMJI/AAAAAAAAADI/PVJn0Pcz1vk/s1600/PromenadISn%C3%B6.jpg)(http://www.kostym.cz/Obrazky/1_Originaly/01_Goticke/I_01_84.jpg)(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ab/e3/ae/abe3ae7966ca14a536cd1f2153a0dff8.jpg)
-
Halcyon, they seem to do a lot of drinking. You notice that even the children are sometimes given sips of ale.
Oops, I meant to explain about last names. You've pretty much figured it out. People didn't pass last names down the generations; they were named for their father plus -son or -datter for "son" or "daughter". Lavrans' father was Bjørgulf, so he is Lavrans Bjørgulfssøn. Kristin is Lavransdatter, and if any of her brothers had lived, they would have been Lavranssøn. If Kristin marries, lets say someone named Thorfin, her sons will be Thorfinssøn, and her daughters will be Thorfinsdatter.
-
Good-looking storehouse--the first one. So that's how they kept the rats from just climbing up the stilts.
Those costumes are plain, but I'm guessing they had something fancier for special occasions. Here's the costume wardrobe of a woman who likes to make historical costumes. She seems to be some sort of expert. If you click on a costume you get more pictures of it and sometimes others, plus more text.
http://web.comhem.se/~u31138198/costumegallery.html (http://web.comhem.se/~u31138198/costumegallery.html)
And here's an infinitely detailed description of how she made the grey dress with the blue hood for part of her master's thesis.
http://web.comhem.se/~u41200125/Uvdal31.html (http://web.comhem.se/~u41200125/Uvdal31.html)
-
PatH.,
What does anyone think of Ragnhild spending the night crying herself to sleep in the barn after the Christmas feast?
I think Ragnfrid got up and left to go outside because of the conversation taking place. When people drink too much, they have a tendency to say things they would not say, or reveal when sober. I think this conversation is revealing once again, the "tail of evil," and makes me think Lady Aashild had something to do with Ragnfrid and her marriage.
Brother Aasgaut said, pg. 52 "You should not forget, Sira Sigurd, our reverend Father Ingjald is your overlord, too--we know enough of you in Hamar. You wallow in all good things in Sundbu, never thinking that you are vowed to other work that to do Trond eye-service, helping him in all wrong and injustice, to the peril of his soul and the minishing of the rights of Holy Church. Have you never heard how it fares with the false and unruly priests who hatch out devices against their spiritual fathers and those in authority? Wot you not of that time when the angels took St. Thomas of Canterbury to the door of hell and let him peep in? He wondered much that he saw none of the priests who had set themselves up against him, as you have set yourself against your bishop. He was about to praise God's mercy, for the angel bade the devil lift his tail a little, and out there came, with a great bang and foul smell of sulphur, all the priests and learned men who had wrought against the good of the Church. Thus did he come to know whither they had gone.
"There you lie, monk," said the priest. "I have heard that tale too; only they were not priests, but beggar-monks, who came from the rear of the devil like wasps out of a wasp-nest." Old Jon laughed louder than all the serving-folk, and roared: "There were both sorts, I'll be bound_" "Then the devil must have a fine broad tail," said Bjorn Gunnarson; and Lady Aashild smiled, and said: "Ay, have you not heard that all evil drags a long tail behind it?"
"Be still, Lady Aashild," cried Sira Sigurd: "You sit here as though you were mistress in the house, and not Ragnfrid. But 'tis strange you could not help her child__you no more of that strong water you dealt in once, which could make a whole the sheep already boiling in the pot, and turn women to maids in the bridal_bed? Think you I know not of the wedding in this very parish where you made a bath for the bride that was no maid__"
Sira Eirik sprang up, gripped the other priest by the shoulder and thigh, and flung him right over the table, so that the jugs and tankards were overturned and food and drink ran upon the cloths and floor, while Sira Sigurd lay his length upon the ground with torn garments. Eirik leaped over the board, and would have struck him again, roaring about the tumult: "Hold your filthy mouth, priest of hell that you are__" Lavrans strove to part them, but Ragnfrid stood, white as death, by the board, and wrung her hands.
Lady Aashild then makes a merry tale, and no one saw that Ragnfrid had left the room. This has got to be part of the secret that is being kept. This upset Ragnfrid, I think, because of the truth coming so close to being revealed. This is why I think she cried herself to sleep. She curled up into a fetal position, and thrust her hands into her bosom. She is wrought with shame, fear and contrition, for some reason and I think this statement has something to do with it all.... " Think you I know not of the wedding in this very parish where you made a bath for the bride that was no maid__" I'm beginning to think the tail of evil Lady Aashild speaks of, is Ragnfrid not being a virgin on her wedding day.
In The Canterbury Tales, a party of twenty-nine pilgrims gathers at the Tabard Inn in Southwark in preparation for their pilgrimage to the shrine of St.Thomas Becket in Canterbury.
If you read The Canterbury Tales, it gives a similarity to what happened at the Christmas feast table. There are many different walks of life telling a tale. And in many of the tales there is mention of a woman sleeping with a man, infidelity, trickery, sinfulness, nobleness, priests, etc., and then merry tales to distract from the others. Seems Undset has used The Canterbury Tales as a reenactment here, only they have added St. Thomas in one of their tales.
http://www.gradesaver.com/the-canterbury-tales/study-guide/summary
http://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/c/the-canterbury-tales/summary
Chaucer, however, came up with the ingenious literary device of having a pilgrimage, a technique that allowed him to bring together a diverse group of people. Thus Chaucer's narrators represent a wide spectrum of society with various ranks and occupations. From the distinguished and noble Knight, we descend through the pious abbess (the Prioress), the honorable Clerk, the rich landowner (the Franklin), the worldly and crude Wife, and on down the scale to the low, vulgar Miller and Carpenter, and the corrupt Pardoner.
Aside from the high literary standard of The Canterbury Tales, the work stands as a historical and sociological introduction to the life and times of the late Middle Ages.
http://courseweb.stthomas.edu/medieval/chaucer/canterburytales.htm
Looking back, it’s difficult to remember just when the idea came to create The Canterbury Tales, but it must have been around 1387. The work was never finished, but what was written amounted to about 17,000 lines, written for the most part in heroic couplets....... People have often wondered why I put the Tales together. Well, let’s just say I’m playing with the “estates satire” to give a picture of a society in the process of change in the England of the 1380s and 1390s.
-
secret or not I would be upset and see my Christmas celebration in ruin if someone was being flung across the table and the general uproar pursues, enough to go off by myself and once I hit the safety and comfort of my bed I too would be in tears - after all Christmas come but once a year and is probably the only joyful playtime during the many cold months plus an atmosphere of uproar sets the tone for the next few months so that life will be even harder to maintain any sort of order much less humor.
I get the impression she is the keeper of the calm and peace needed to get anything done since the men, including her husband lean towards a lighter mood that is not as conducive to the repetitive work that it takes to get through the days during the cold weather when they are living in tight quarters to keep warm. I think drinking as they do can bring out all sorts of talk that may or may not be completely true and she really has no family protector if someone says the slightest thing negative and then, if they did how does she maintain the atmosphere needed for folks to live check to jowl for months on end.
Ok Pat did you read anything to explain the reason for that tail on the hats or caps or whatever they are called that both the men and the women sport - at least your link gave it a name 'liripipe' - but why - certainly does not seem attractive as a fashion statement - well I just did a bunch of web sites about 14c hoods and liripipe and a couple seem to think they were a decoration however, one said it was more typical to pull the hood away from the face and then using the liriipipe it was wound around gathering it all into a turban. One site showed a nice trim with a blanket stitch as the decorative feature at the edge of the hood opening and along the edge of the cape.
-
Secret or not. I would be upset and see my Christmas celebration in ruin if someone was being flung across the table and the general uproar pursues, enough to go off by myself and once I hit the safety and comfort of my bed I too would be in tears - after all Christmas come but once a year and is probably the only joyful playtime during the many cold months plus an atmosphere of uproar sets the tone for the next few months so that life will be even harder to maintain any sort of order much less humor.
I get the impression she is the keeper of the calm and peace needed to get anything done since the men, including her husband lean towards a lighter mood that is not as conducive to the repetitive work that it takes to get through the days during the cold weather when they are living in tight quarters to keep warm. Although she knows her baby girl and her husband will live they are both still pretty sick and then it appears the brother cannot do the job required to make a success of the farm and does a fair amount of daily drinking - I think drinking, as they do can bring out all sorts of talk that may or may not be completely true and she really has no family protector if someone says the slightest thing negative and then, if they did how does she maintain the atmosphere needed for folks to live check to jowl for months on end.
She also has on her head that she called for the help of a woman considered an outcaste - I thought it was interesting and see it today how when someone is more educated the the rest in a group that person is set aside and attempts are made to either discredit them or bring them down.
As to all the bit with the various priests, monks and Bishops I need to read it again - the one thing I do know a monk is not held to the same standards as a priest and I have to see if I can find when they were given the 'rights' to say Mass - at this time a Monk was allowed to marry and have children - with just this one reading what occurs is my having read the Biography of St. Brendan and knowing now how the Vikings and the Irish were so entangled I think that set up could help explain - in the time of St. Brendan in Ireland, land holdings were either the church or those who had given exceptional service to the king and were awarded land or the members of the old war Lords before there were any Irish Kings, both those groups, excluding the church, were expected to not only serve and provide soldiers and arms but to build a castle which means a building with a keep that held ammunition and was the center of the fortress so that the land was distributed where the most protection was needed.
The Church was the holder of most of the land and that was part of the commona man's complaint answered in the Magna Carter that the woodlands were in question because there were enough folks living in some of the patches of unclaimed land and needed to cut wood for their homes and fires and to hunt and fish. They were punished if they cut wood or poached from either the kings land, which was any land given to what became the nobility and the woodlands owned by the church. All gave access to these commoners in the Charter EXCEPT the church that continued to deny them access to the woodlands on church land. The legal authority of Rome gets involved here but that is another story.
Within the lands owned by the church there were more than one center with a church and living as well as farming and craftsmen creating a community that included a school. There were levels of importance among these centers and in Ireland the Abbot or Bishop heading up each center was an Abbot because of his knowing or somehow appointed as a successor from St. Patrick where as a Bishop was appointed by Rome.
In Ireland there was ill feelings between Abbots and Bishops since the Abbot was closer to the traditions of the people where as the Bishops were to not only bring the people closer to Rome but often they had a mission given to them by the Pope that involved sending perspective priests to Rome to study and to as today a Bishopric sends a tithing to Rome - where as the Abbots ran their center more like a monastery that was self contained with an emphasis on education and prayer. Ireland did not divide their land holdings into diocesans as they had in Italy and France - I need to read all this part again now that I know the story line and just focus on the relationships and then see what I can find out anything about how the office of the Church arranged itself in Scandinavia.
-
Ok Pat did you read anything to explain the reason for that tail on the hats or caps or whatever they are called that both the men and the women sport - at least your link gave it a name 'liripipe' - but why - certainly does not seem attractive as a fashion statement - well I just did a bunch of web sites about 14c hoods and liripipe and a couple seem to think they were a decoration however, one said it was more typical to pull the hood away from the face and then using the liriipipe it was wound around gathering it all into a turban. One site showed a nice trim with a blanket stitch as the decorative feature at the edge of the hood opening and along the edge of the cape.
-
PatH Thank you for the explanation of names.
Bellamarie Do you not believe Fru Aashild's tale about the bath water; she claims it was not she who concocted the brew and it did't happen in their parish. Do you think she was covering for Ragnfrid? Or had she helped Ragnfrid in some other way appear to be a virgin on her wedding night?
Going back to page 41 when her brother Trond said " No doubt she means that I am the one who caused this (the accident)". His sister shot him a look of hatred and replied "Trond knows what I mean." Do you think he molested his sister?
-
This is one place where Archer leaves a bit out: "And the lady told a merry tale of a misadventure that befell in King Inga's time, when the magic wash was used by the wrong woman, and what followed thereon".
In Nunnally, the bridegroom is named--Peter Lodinsøn of Bratteland. "But I won't say which of his three wives was the bride, since there are living descendants from all three." The bath is prepared for the bride, but before she can get in, her future mother-in-law comes in, all dirty from her ride, and gets in the tub.
-
Halycon, You have to look at the statements before yours.
"Lavrans lay upon the other bed; he rose and staggered across the floor that he might comfort his wife. At that she started up, and shrieked. "Touch me not, touch me not! Jesus, Jesus__'twere liker you should strike me dead__never will it end, the ill-fortune I bring upon you__" "You! Dear wife, 'tis not you that have brought this on us," said Lavrans, and laid a hand upon her shoulder. She shuddered at that, and her light grey eyes shone in her lean, sallow face. "Doubtless she means that 'twas my doing." said Trond Ivarson roughly. His sister looked at him with hate in her eyes, and answered: "Trond knows what I mean."
Then in the next page Ragnfrid says: ""God," said Ragnfrid hopelessly, "hates me for my sins. 'Tis well with my children, where they are, I doubt not that; and now 'tis like Ulvhild's hour has come too--but me. He has cast off, for my heart is a viper's nest, full of sin and sorrow__."
Ragnfrid seems to have turned against God, and the priest feels she has only thought of herself: "God help you, Ragnfrid Ivarsdatter," said Sira Eirik, and shook his head. "In all your praying and fasting, you have thought only to force your will upon God. Can you wonder that it has helped but little?" Ragnfrid looked defiantly at the priest, and spoke: "I have sent for the Lady Aashild even now." The priest looked as though he would answer sharply, but checked himself again.
Seems Ragnfrid turns against God, and toward witchcraft when God does not provide her with the answers of her prayers.
No I don't think her brother molested her, I think he knows her secret. Yes, Lady Aashild says she did not brew the water and it did not happen here in the Dale, if she had she would have been a rich woman. Then she says, "But,'tis said, sure enough, that the art was known in the olden days."
PatH., Now isn't that interesting, why would Asher leave that part out, and Nunnally have it in? Is this part of a tale or truth? I just feel with all the bits and pieces being dropped, and like the pilgrims at Canterbury telling their tales, we can't know which is truth and which is tales, but I feel something is not right about the wedding. I suspect the secret is known by Lady Aashild, Tronds, and obviously others, since this conversation incited a brawl amongst the priest and monk.
Chaucer includes....."and the corrupt Pardoner." The accusation of the priest knowing is what causes the fight to break out, "Think you I know not of the wedding in this very parish where you made a bath for the bride that was no maid__"[/color]
Barb, I suspect Ragnfrid would be upset to see a brawl at her Christmas feast, but I also suspect these type of gatherings happened and the drinking would get out of control, remember, it is Lavrans who breaks up the fight. So, I ask myself, did he break up the fight because someone could be badly hurt, or to come to the protection of Ragnfrid, to keep her secret from being revealed? I can't come to a decision where Lavrans fits into all of this, because he says to her it was not her fault. But she says her children (three boys) are where they should be and she expects God to take Ulvhild, as well because of her sins.
"O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive!" - Walter Scott
-
As we leave this section, are there any loose ends you want to wind up, anything that struck you that we haven't covered?
-
No loose ends for me. We can always return if something comes up.
-
I guess I am not convinced there is this big dark secret from what we are reading - I see Ragnfid needing protection when she openly declares her support for, turns to and hires Lady Aashild - she risks being a witch by association and she loves her husband so she would not want him to touch her for fear of her witchery passing to him as if it was a disease. She is already blaming herself for all their misfortunes and during this time in European history all they knew were curses as the cause of ill-fortune.
I was caught up in how it appeared Lavrans was going to loose the farm and I could see if they are barely holding on and Tronds came into the picture just at the time of the accident and it appears he is staying, and he does not seem to be a good noble farmer as Lavrans that somehow I wonder if Ragnfid suspects Tronds is after the farm because Lavrans won't be able to keep it as profitable as it needs to be in order not to loose it.
As to the brawl between the monks and priest that I still see as typical and wrapped up with the egos of those who are in competition over whose parish is given more acclaim - it was the same nonsense that a read going on in Ireland, yes earlier, during the lifetime of St. Brendan. When an area is divided into Diocesans there is one Bishop appointed for the Diocesan but I am betting this is like Ireland and therefore, there are several Bishops, each associated with a compound or center or parish - I had not read the word parish used yet, but it could be. And there had been an ongoing disrespect that priests held for monks with monks being cruder, usually not educated more than the locals and not given the sacrament of Holy Orders so they do not say Mass although, they can distribute Communion.
The church leader of the center or parish functions as more important than any civilian leader including advising but not leading the nobility and so these families that live within the area are governed by the church leader, the Bishop and in Ireland it could also be an Abbot. Here we seem to have family ownership of land holdings and so the thing to learn about is how much leadership do these Bishops hold, is the church the governing system or the nobility or both and how do individual landowners fit into the governing system.
Frankly, it is so early in the story my thought is the issue of witchcraft over church leadership is at the center here - and in this story we are seeing the clergy function as physicians so then following the physical health issue where the priests would have whatever book learning was available where as, the monks would be closer to the people and know the local talisman of healing and may even have knowledge of some of the local herbs - it was the knowledge of local herbs in France that had many a monastery, after they were no longer the governing body for the lay people, make the liqueurs and fortified wines we still drink today as a means of income since with the loss of their governing came a loss of tax collecting which was the duty of the clergy.
-
I found fascinating how to hear confession you went into a private room as Lavran does while Kristin is cared for - now I am curious to learn when the confessionals became part of church architecture because come to think on it the few great historical Cathedrals I had the good fortune to visit did not have confessionals or if they did they were separate, made of wood, like a small divided room plunked in like we would wheel in a mobile home.
OK here we go, "Beginnings of practicing the sacrament of penance in the form of individual confession as we know it now, i.e. bringing confession of sins and reconciliation together, can be traced back to 11th century. In 1215 the Fourth Council of the Lateran made it canon law that every Catholic Christian goes to confession in his parish at least once a year. The specification to one's own parish was later dropped. "
The Fourth Council of Lateran does not suggest that the Tariff be dropped - since the sixth and seventh century, which is one of the things Luther was rebelling over, in order for anyone to receive a blessing or be absolved of sin during confession you paid a tariff - I wonder if that was the beginning of our thinking that the poor were less worthy - they could not afford the blessings of the priests nor the forgiveness of their sins. Hmmm another reason to fear becoming poor.
-
Halycon, You have to look at the statements before yours.
I do see what you're saying. Ragnfrid seemed so full of hate I couldn't help think Trond had done something totally ungorgivable to her.
-
Ok found another tid bit - In the Saga of Hákon the Good which was only written down in the 11th century and included in Prose Edda (I knew I kept this book for a reason ;) ) a description of the custom of Yule is given which includes a series of toasts. The toasts begin with a toast to Odin (the main god, over healing, death, knowledge, sorcery, poetry, the runic alphabet, and victory and power for the king) followed by toasts to Njörðr (the sea god) and his son Freyr's (god of virility and prosperity, with sunshine and fair weather), intended for good harvests and peace. Following this, a beaker is drank for the king, and then a toast is given for departed kin.
Since the Yule was 10 days long I wonder if these toasts were all at once - at the beginning of each days gathering - how quickly they were consumed - what we know today that is a lot of drinking.
-
Wheee here we go - here in this web site is the explanation for how giants, elves and dwarfs etc. came into being
http://www.viking-mythology.com/theCreation.php
While Odin and his brothers were in the progress of creating a new world from the body parts of Ymir, worms kept crawling out of the remains. The worms became dwarfs. The brothers told four of the dwarfs to hold up the sky. They did not want to risk the sky falling down. The names of the four dwarfs is North "Nordi" West "Vestri", South "Sundri", and East "Austri", and was sent out in each direction of the world.
The other dwarfs made their homes in rocks and caves under the ground, which is called Nidavellir. The dwarfs became experts in craftsmanship, and have created some of the most powerful weapons, like Mjölnir, Thor's hammer.
-
PatH., I have no loose ends, I only have questions, that only the next chapters may be able to answer, and enlighten me to what is the secret and sins of Ragnfrid. I have NO doubt there is something, that has her filled with hatred, sorrow, sinfulness and feeling God has turned against her, for whatever she feels she has done so unforgivable. Only time will tell.
-
So caught up in finding all these by the way tid bits that make the story come alive I did not pay attention to the conversation here - yes Pat, I am ready and hope like Bellamarie we get more answers because as Halycan points out there are other ways to look at what transpires between these characters.
-
Time well spent, Barb; those tid bits do indeed make the story even more alive.
I didn't know about the Tariff. Hmmm--charging for God's mercy.
-
yep - they would also sell indulgences, that is when you said a group of prayers that was supposed to reduce your time in purgatory - in any organization, including the Roman Catholic Church, to learn where the power lies and what the real issues are all about follow the money
-
Wow, what a great discussion and what great points everybody has made!!
Oh super, I see the "datter" explained because I had a theory from the first (too many Ericssons not to be a datter) but I thought I better read and see who Lavrans was first. I'm caught up just in time to begin reading the new section. hahaha But it's a fast read, and an enjoyable one. Nice way to spend an hour.
However, I have to say the book surprises me. Is it the translation perhaps? (I have the Nunnally).
I didn't have the feeling of being in the Middle Ages at all until Ulvhild was hurt and the shaman/witch or medicine woman or whatever she is was called in. Did her medicines work, the heading asks? They don't appear to be. The dew to bathe the child in, etc. But if one believes they will, perhaps eventually they might.
(What does the child appear to be suffering from, anyway? A broken back?)
Beautiful descriptions of nature. I think the author was very clever to see things thru initially a child's eyes (7 I think at the first?) because she's really explaining things to us, and so we're caught up learning about the world like Kristin does.
Here are some of the things that made me think:
How does the medieval life seem to you? Can you imagine yourself there?
In all honesty it doesn't seem real. I am not sure what I expected, maybe a Canterbury Tales type bunch of characters. I did not read the Introduction, did Undset research it a lot and this is how she really found it? Are there any written letters or records at all from people of this period? Perhaps in the church? It starts out in 1306. The Canterbury Tales were not much later, as you've all pointed out, in the same century. Maybe they won't be so different in the end, it will be interesting to see.
The things that stood out at me were the shunned medical woman apparently feels she's the equal of anybody, as she says to Kristin: (page 53 in my book): "Yes, of course you're a good match," Said Fru Aashild. "And yet you couldn't expect to become part of my lineage..." and then on about the ancestor who was an outlaw and a foreigner...and never mind that was incorrect, I thought that was odd for a woman whom others apparently consider a witch or outcast...
Ragnfrid apparently is hiding a secret. I see Bellamarie and Halcyon right on that! On page 51, "Fru Aashild never mentioned that they had known each other in the past, and that frightened Ragnfrid quite badly...." in fact she's in an "agony of fear."
Wonder why. Wonder what she's hiding. I wonder if she considers the deaths of her children her fault for something hidden, and this Fru Aashild knows what it is, sometimes people think like that.
I thought this was interesting (page 49) "That's why I think that sensible people have to be satisfied with the good days--for the grandest of days are costly indeed."
What an interesting statement and philosophy. I'm reading Being Mortal which is fabulous and for a minute I thought she was echoing him, but she's not. It's not a gather ye rosebuds, it's something else. Be content with enough?
I like the book, it's strange. It's not what I expected. It's kind of like a fairytale, in a way, magic. The people seem so odd, to me, there seems to be a barrier between the reader and the characters, I can't figure it out. But I'm glad to finally read it (and of course the edition is glorious and I love the footnotes) and glad you're offering it. On to the next section and to really catch up. :)
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
April/May Book Club Online
Kristin Lavransdatter
by Sigrid Undset
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kirsten_lavransdatter/Bjolstad.jpg) |
This Nobel prize-winning book is the tumultuous story of the daughter of a 14th century Norwegian nobleman-farmer.
I loved it when I first read it decades ago, and now there’s a new translation which makes it even better.
Schedule: April 21-25 Jørundgaard, Chapters 1-4
April 26-30 Jørundgaard, Chapters 5-7
May 1 or 2-?, The Wreath, Chapters 1-3
Questions:
Jorundgaard
Chapters 5-7:
How much control did young people have over who they married?
Why can't Kristin and Arne even think of marrying?
Kristin doesn't much want to marry Simon. Why didn't she ask her father to release her from the betrothal?
After her encounter with Bentein, Kristin made some mistakes that made her more vulnerable to gossip. Should she have avoided these?
What do you think of Simon?
In the fuss over Arne's death, Simon behaves very capably and sensibly. Why does his calmness make Kristin like him less?
The Wreath:
Chapters 1-3
Kristin seems to fall for Erlend instantly and completely. Does this this seem realistic? Does Erlend feel the same way?
What is Erlend like? Can you like or approve of him?
What is the oath the two swear to each other after the dance? Is it binding?
|
|
Discussion Leader: PatH
-
Ginny, welcome, welcome. I'm so glad you could carve out enough time to read with us.
The introduction includes a plot summary, so don't read it unless you don't mind spoilers. That's probably why you didn't read it.
You raise so many good points:
Did Undset research it a lot and this is how she really found it?
Undset was steeped in this time. Her father was a distinguished archaeologist, she shared his interest in the past, and she read the sagas as a child, later saying that they were "the most important turning point in my life". There's tons of written material from the time. And her Nobel Prize citation says: "principally for her powerful descriptions of Northern life during the Middle Ages". So I think we can assume her description of the life is pretty accurate. It doesn't seem so strange to me, because I've read more from that time or earlier, but it seems more North than Middle Ages to me.
Fru Aashild feels she's the equal of anybody because in a way, she is. She is of exalted, almost royal lineage, socially above anybody else we've met so far, but she's messed up her standing by doing some disreputable things, and also lost all her money.
More later.
-
Kristin is growing up, and facing a whole new set of issues and emotions. What is your impression of this section?
-
Oh my heavens! So much has happened in these chapters. Where to begin? In just one decision, Kristin, Arne, and their entire families lives have been changed forever. What will become of Kristin now?
How much control did young people have over who they married?
It appears the young had no control over who they would marry, although, their actions could have a huge effect, even if they have been promised to someone.
http://www.dfwx.com/medieval_cult.html
In the middle ages marriages were done by arrangement. Women were not allowed to choose who they wanted to marry. However, sometimes men were able to choose their bride. Marriage was not based on love. Husbands and wives were generally strangers until they first met. If love was involved at all it came after the couple had been married. Even if love did not develop through marriage, the couple generally developed a friendship of some sort. The arrangement of marriage was done by the children's parents. In the Middle Ages children were married at a young age. Girls were as young as 12 when they married, and boys as young as 17. The arrangement of the marriage was based on monetary worth. The family of the girl who was to be married gives a dowry,or donation, to the boy she is to marry. The dowry goes with her at the time of the marriage and stays with the boy forever (Renolds).
After the marriage was arranged a wedding notice was posted on the door of the church. The notice was put up to ensure that there were no grounds for prohibiting the marriage. The notice stated who was to be married, and if anyone knew any reasons the two could not marry they were to come forward with the reason. If the reason were a valid one the wedding would be prohibited (Rice).
There were many reasons for prohibiting a marriage. One reason was consanguinity, if the two were too closely related. If the boy or the girl had taken a monastic or religious vow the marriage was also prohibited. Sometimes widows or widowers took vows of celibacy on the death of their spouse, and later regretted doing so when they could not remarry. Other reasons which also prohibited marriage, but were not grounds for a divorce, were rape, adultery, and incest. A couple could also not be married during a time of fasting, such as lent or advent. Nor could a couple be married by someone who had killed someone (Rice).
Does Simon have legal grounds to back out of the betrothal, and will he? His family may have much to say, once they learn of all that has taken place.
-
Does Simon have legal grounds to back out of the betrothal, and will he? His family may have much to say, once they learn of all that has taken place. (http://Does Simon have legal grounds to back out of the betrothal, and will he? His family may have much to say, once they learn of all that has taken place.)He's not acting like he wants to back out, and he believes her account, which means that nothing happened that would call for backing out.
Thanks for the details of arranged marriages. Some note I read said that by the time of the story a legal marriage required the woman's formal consent. Of course, family pressures being what they are, in some cases she still wouldn't really have a choice.
-
PatH., You are correct in saying Simon does not seem to want to back out, but my concern is how is his family going to feel? So, thus I ask does he have grounds to back out? The article states rape as legal cause to back out.
Kristin said she was not sure what actually did happen. Pg. 84. "But he threw me down on the ground, I say__I scarce know myself what he did or did not do__I was beside myself; I can remember naught__for all I know it may be as Inga says__I have not been well nor happy a single day since__"
Simon is determined to convince Kristen nothing happened. "Any but the evil-minded, who would fain think ill rather than good, can see by her eyes that she is a maid, and no woman."
I have some hesitation with Simon's motives for wanting to still marry Kristen, and is leaping at the thought of sending her to the convent. These statements gave me pause:
"Methinks you love Kristen__?" Simon laughed a little and did not look at Lavrans. "Be sure, I know her worth__and yours, too," he said quickly and shamefacedly, as he got up and took his ski. "None that I have ever met would I sooner wed with__"
Call it instinct, but I just am not comfortable with how Simon is so quick to dismiss nothing happened, when even Kristin seems not to be certain. He did not confirm his love, he confirmed their "worth."
-
"Methinks you love Kristen__?" Simon laughed a little and did not look at Lavrans. "Be sure, I know her worth__and yours, too," he said quickly and shamefacedly, as he got up and took his ski. "None that I have ever met would I sooner wed with__"
Nunnery's translation is a bit different..."You are fond of Kristin, I think. Simon laughed a little but did not look at Lavrans. "You must know that I have great affection for her__and for you as well," Simon said brusquely, and then he stood up and put on his skis. "I have never met any maiden I would rather marry."
Sounds like he's met quite a few maidens. And I wonder if they are still maidens? I agree with Bellamarie. He's not to be trusted, too controlling.
-
Yes, indeed Simon has met many a maidens, as he states talking about sending Kristin to the convent:
pg. 86 " Send her to the Sisters of Oslo for a year__there will she learn how folk talk one of the other out in the world. I know a little of some of the maidens who are there," he said laughing. "They would not throw themselves down and die of grief if two mad yonkers tore each other to pieces for their sakes. Not that I would have such an one for wife__but methinks Kristin will be none the worse for meeting new folks."
Simon seems to be completely insensitive to what Kristin has gone through. He does not even seem to respect the fact she is feeling guilty, and grieving over Arne, her best friend since childhood is dead, from defending her honor. Maybe Simon knew Kristin and Arne had feelings for each other and he is glad he is dead, afterall, he knows Kristin did go out in the night to meet with Arne, and Arne's mother accuses her of not thinking he was good enough for her. No, I'm not ready to put any trust or faith in Simon, just yet.
I am really liking my Archer translation much more than the Nunnally, as I see the comparisons. I feel Nunnally has changed the perception, especially in the statements Halycon and PatH., have provided. I could clearly see how we could be reading the same book, but the different author's translations, changing words, adding words, or leaving words out, can give an entirely different interpretation to the reader.
-
I have a mixed reaction to Simon. In his favor, he totally believes Kristin's account of what happened. But just as you start to like him, he says something like the snippy remark My mother used to say that if you play with the cottager's children, in the long run you'll end up with lice in your hair, and there's some truth to that." And he doesn't seem to realize how upsetting the incident is to Kristin.
-
Were maidens and women sent to convents regularly just to get away from their troubles? Was there an expectation that they would eventually stay and become nuns?
The discussion about whether or not there was a choice as to whom one could marry reminded me of an earlier section when Kristin is watching the monk paint and he asks if she will give herself to the Church. She implies that she will marry since she is the only one and that her mother has already started saving things for her dowry. She grew up with the notion that was what was expected of her.
-
Were maidens and women sent to convents regularly just to get away from their troubles? Was there an expectation that they would eventually stay and become nuns?
Maidens could be sent to a convent to be educated, with no expectation that they would become nuns. Presumably sometimes the real reason was to get away from some trouble.
At first I wondered, wouldn't Kristin's going away just make the gossip worse? But I checked out the timetable. The gossip started in the fall, and Kristin didn't go away until Easter, so if she had been in trouble, it would have been obvious by then.
-
Yes, PatH., I too have mixed feelings where Simon is concerned. He can come off as an insensitive cad.
Halcyon, I tried to Google expectations of girls entering the convent in the 14th century, but came up short. It did lead me to our book, which I did not want to read about, since I felt it could be a spoiler. I am assuming, yes, daughters were placed in convents who were troubled, or did not want to marry, or were actually wanting to give their lives up to the church. I had a sister in law who was in a convent, back in the 1950s and her experiences were not pleasant. She decided to leave, and not complete her vows to become a nun.
Simon's comment, " I know a little of some of the maidens who are there," he said laughing." gave me pause, and made me wonder if men went to the convent, and possibly used the "maidens" for sex? He says they would not be any he would want for a wife.
-
We'll find out a lot more about the convent in the next section. It was totally respectable. Simon probably knew the girls socially, as some were from his class of people.
-
In the fuss over Arne's death, Simon behaves very capably and sensibly. Why does his calmness make Kristin like him less?
I liked Simon less as well, and I can only say my instincts kicked in and said, Whoa....something does not feel right here. When he took it upon himself to inform Ragnfrid, before Kristin could, I thought how dare him, this seemed way out of line.
pg. 84 "It was Simon who told Ragnfrid of what had happened in the corpse-chamber at Brekken the night before. He did not make more of it than he needs must. But Kristin was so mazed with sorrow and night-waking that she felt a senseless anger against him because he talked as if it were not so dreadful a thing after all. Besides it vexed her sorely that her father and mother let Simon behave as though he were master in the house.
What gave him that right? I was so upset when I read this. For some reason Simon refuses to accept just how devastating a thing this was. I did not see him acting capable or sensible. His calmness seems strange to me. This is the girl he is betrothed to, who could have been raped, and he acts like she stumbled and bumped her toe.
PatH., Good point on the timeline of the incident taking place, and Kristin entering the convent. At least we can assume she did not get pregnant, if indeed the rape occurred, which Kristin never fully established, one way or the other, since she felt she was in too much shock to recall everything that did, or did not take place.
-
Simon is very controlling. he not only acts as if he owns the place, when he tells Kristen's father he shouldn't have let Kristen associate with Arne, you know he's going to assume he can tell Kristen who to associate with after they're married.
I wonder if he makes so little of what happened to Kristen because he's tried a few things like that himself when he was drunk, and wants to believe that it's all just fun and games. What a jerk!
-
"After her encounter with Bentein, Kristin made some mistakes that made her more vulnerable to gossip. Should she have avoided these?"
I wondered at the time why she went to Bentein's mother, instead of her own. I think because she wanted to be angry (rather than have her mother be angry with her) and thought Bentein's mother would bring her some justice by punishing her son.
Unfortunately, she turned out to be one of those mothers who wanted to punish the other person whenever her little darling got into trouble. I had a neighbor like that when my kids were little. I always wondered how "little darling" turned out. I hope better than Bentein.
-
Kristin wasn't trying to go to Bentein's mother, she was trying to go to the priest, Sira Eirik, and it was her bad luck that he wasn't home and she got Bentein's mother instead. Bentein is Sira Eirik's grandson, and his mother does housekeeping in Sira Eirik's house. Priests had only recently been forbidden to marry in Norway, and the villagers were tolerant of the priest having had children by his housekeeper. Indeed, Kristin should have gone to her mother.
I don't think a rape occurred. The account is clear on the point, but Kristin was in enough shock to be unclear about what happened.
-
Simon is very controlling. he not only acts as if he owns the place, when he tells Kristen's father he shouldn't have let Kristen associate with Arne, you know he's going to assume he can tell Kristen who to associate with after they're married.
JoanK I also wondered if he was going to be of those who treated you kindly and then used your misfortune against you. If, after they marry (if they do) he will try to blame her for what happened and use that to control her even more. Such as "Who else would marry you? You're damaged goods."
-
Halcyon, I thought that same thing. Simon could use this to shame Kristin, once they are married. I don't think she will ever marry him. Her first instincts were not at all liking of him. Arne showed Kristin what a loving husband would be like when he so sweetly put his head in her lap, and talked of what it would be like to be married to him. Kristin going to the convent hopefully will prevent her from marrying Simon. I just hope he does not go to the convent and try to force himself on her. I do suspect he has gone to the convent before, and possibly helped himself to the "maidens" there.
PatH., I agree, I don't think the rape actually occurred, because of what Kristin says here: "Bentein had not failed altogether__ he had wrought scathe to the maidenhood of her spirit."
Inga sure tried to make it seem as though Bentein had sex with Kristin, and she shamed Kristin, blaming her for it all.
pg. 80 "Ay, take my life then, Lavrans, since she has taken all my comfort and joy__ and make her wedding with this knight's son; but yet do all folk know that she was wed with Bentein upon the highway...Here..." and she cast the sheet Lavrans had given her right across the bier to Kristin, "I need not Ragnfrid's linen to lay my Arne in the grave__make head-cloths of it, you, or keep it to swaddle your roadside brat__"
Where did Inga get her information from? It had to be Gunhild, Bentein's mother who attended to Kristin that night.
pg. 72 Then again came the thought, she must not be seen at home as she was; and so it came into her mind that she would go to Romundgaard. She would complain to Sira Eirik. But the priest had not come back yet from Jorundgaard. In the kitchen-house she found Gunhild, Bentein's mother; the woman was alone, and Kristin told her how her son had dealt with her. But that she had gone out to meet Arne she did not tell her. When she saw that Gunhild thought she had been at Laugarbru, she left her to think so.
Gunhild said little, but wept a great deal while she washed the mud off Kristin's clothes and sewed up the worst rents. And the girl was so shaken she paid no need to the covert glances Gunhild cast on her now and then.
Gunhild had to have told Inga, and she did it out of spite, wanting to harm Kristin, for her harming her son Bentein.
JoanK., I agree, Gunhild was not going to acknowledge the wrong her son had done. She decided to make Kristin out to be the flirt and tease.
-
The music of Hildegard von Bingen, Benedictine abbess, writer, composer, philosopher, and visionary who composed this music about 140 years before the story of Kristin Lavransdatter takes place however, the music Kristin would have heard.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/Dehwp_dRlYQ?feature=player_embedded (https://www.youtube.com/embed/Dehwp_dRlYQ?feature=player_embedded)
-
Thanks for the music, Barb. I've been listening to it as I did my chores.
-
For years I have followed Britt-Arnhild's website - she lives in the outskirts of Trondheim, Norway and she is in charge of the diocese of Nidaros´website.
Britt-Arnhild (all one word) does a lot of traveling and on this current site if you catch it quickly is three days of photos that include her visit to Britain where she went to see the 1000 tear bottles in Chichester Cathedral - just beautiful - both Chichester and Nidaros were built during the Middle Ages - unfortunately the Nidaros website is in Norwegian however, on Britt-Arnhild's website along the side in a light gray are the links to her many topics - she has been blogging on this site for years, improving her English language skills every year - find the one that says Nidaros Cathedral and keep scrolling past the current posts picturing the scaffolding for the work on the spire and there you'll find many more photos and then if you hit my church there is more.
http://www.brittarnhildshouseinthewoods.typepad.com/
-
Gorgeous photos, Barb. Thanks. I particularly liked the church as seen through trees and gravestones in the cemetery.
It's time to move on; it looks like we've said about what we're going to about this section, though we can continue to talk about it.
The next section, The Wreath, flows along as one connected interval, but it's 90 pages, unwieldy to make one chunk. Let's read the first 3 chapters now, and in just a few days add in the rest of the section. Tomorrow I'm flying to Portland, OR, and today I'm packing, so I won't be around much, but once I get there tomorrow midday, I have good internet access and plenty of time.
-
Thank you Barb, for the beautiful music and pictures!
Excited to move on and see what happens once Kristin is in the convent. Safe travels PatH.
-
So now that Kristin is in the convent, we have a better idea of what it is like and the expectations. Halycon asked earlier if the girls who went to the convent were expected to become nuns. Well, from what I can see that is not necessarily the case since they have maidens who wear the nun habits in public, showing their intentions of becoming nuns , and then you have the other maidens who wear their regular nice clothes out in public to show they are not intended to become nuns.
pg. And those young maids who were at the convent only to learn, and were not to take the veil, had leave to go with them and dance in the evening; therefore at this feast they wore their own clothes and not the convent habit.
I have to admit, I was a bit surprised at how much freedom the girls were given at the festival. Even though they were chided for being out late, due to the chaos when the pards were running loose, when they went shopping, it seemed when they were at the festival they were allowed to not only talk and dance with anyone they wanted to, but were allowed to sleep overnight outside, amongst those men who had gotten drunk and fallen asleep.
-
HALCYON: I was surprised by that, too. it's asking for trouble. And Kristen may be about to get into trouble with a troubled young man.
She has already been assaulted twice, in the space of a few years of being a young woman. At that rate, it's a wonder any woman managed to live without being raped at least once!
PatH is flying across the country today, but I'll bet we hear from her soon. Meanwhile, I wonder if they celebrate May Day in Kristen's Norway.
-
I asked google, and got many descriptions of May 17th, their independence day, or constitution day. celebrating their independence from Denmark in 1814.
-
JoanK., As I think about the two situations of Kristin being assaulted, both times she made decisions that put herself in harms way. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying I blame her for these attacks. Bentein, and the man in the woods, were completely in the wrong. I am just pointing out that I think her judgement of going off to meet Arne, and running further into the woods was something she must learn from, as far as safety is concerned. I do think many assaults against women did occur. That being said, I think this is one of the reasons women were not to go out alone.
Now, Kristin is trusting in the smooth talker Erlend, and this could prove to be yet one more bad choice, that could bring her much pain. The fact he has history of getting another girl pregnant twice, and he was looked upon as whoredom, should be a red flag for Kristin. I realize he says he is attempting to make right his wrongs, and win favor back from the King by going off to war, so why then does he sleep with Kristin, and possibly get her pregnant out of wedlock, bringing shame to her? This is showing a pattern in his behavior. Again, Kristin sneaks off into the day and night to meet a man, allowing him to kiss her and woe her, as she did with Arne. She too, is showing a pattern in her behavior. I realize she is young and impressionable, but she does know right from wrong. She has been sent to the convent to spare her and her family shame, yet here she is putting herself in a situation that may only cause her, her family and the convent shame. I want to hope Erlend is sincere, but my gut tells me there is a whole lot of heartache ahead.
-
I just don't know what to think. Convent life for maidens is not at all as I imagined. I can't imagine Kristin's father agreeing to a match with Erlend. And what are Erlend's intentions? I hope he's for real.
-
Kristin's life is that of a sort of student, not a postulate, but she certainly seems to be rather poorly supervised. It was against the rules for Kristin and Ingebjorg to go into town to shop unsupervised, but Ingebjorg talked Sister Potentia into it. And after the dance, the people from the convent all slept together in a guest house, but obviously nobody counted noses.
-
i am in Ginny's Latin Class. i just noticed you were doing Kristen Lavransdottir.
i know it is late but i would like to join in if i can find the time. I read the book as a child, it was one of my mother's favorites. I loved it and I have read it again 3 or 4 times in the last 55 years. I am probably ready for another read. i have my original copy.
-
Xine48 Welcome. After reading it so many times your take will be interesting. Interesting how we save those childhood books.
-
Welcome, Xine48. We'd love to have you join us. Since you've already read the book, the discussion will make sense, and you can join in as much or as little as you want while you catch up.
As you notice, we divide a book up into chunks, and concentrate on one section at a time. We can still go back and talk about older sections, but we try not to talk ahead, to avoid spoilers for those who haven't read the book.
-
YEAH, XINE! Jump right in!
-
We got some more clues about costumes here. Kristin has a purple-blue velvet gown, and one that's blue with red birds on it. And the shifts show in the deep slit in the front of the bodice, so her yellow silk shift with it's decoration will be noticed.
-
Welcome welcome Xine
Been reading about French Salons and came across this that I think helps us better understand Kristin - "Prior to the Age of Enlightenment, people did not feel they deserved to be happy. The pursuit of happiness is an Enlightenment idea.
Another concept that we take for granted today is that knowledge, or science can, and should make our lives better. Still another legacy of The Enlightenment is that we should trust reason and not superstitions and prejudices.
The Age of Enlightenment is a period of history intrinsically French in its origins but predominately American in its impact."
Suggesting that we, in American think the pursuit of our individual happiness is to be valued and that trusting our reason to the degree of making light, if not making fun, of superstition and in addition we do what we can to eradicate prejudices. All these concepts just since the seventeenth century while the story is about folks living in the early fourteenth century.
It is difficult to get into their shoes but some of us remember our grandparents who were closer to their work and getting ahead, who thought happy was not an expectation and superstition was the cause of most illness with prayer the cure - there was no penicillin and aspirin had only been available since 1899.
At the time of this story the world was not round and it was held up by a variety of explanations according the local folklore and the sky was a protective bowl that when it rained that meant it had sprung a leak. A heavy rain was a fearful experience. To really wrap our heads around the concept of a flat earth held up by turtles or little men or giants is so beyond anything we can truly imagine that everyone actually believed it.
If marriage was an arranged contract that had little to do with love than what was sex - surely not an expression of love - as to girls it would seem all the protection was about protecting the father's property and if you got into the good graces of the father his protection could either loosen or you could become the owner of that property by spoiling what had been protected. Other books I have read suggested that girls were in convents for safety from marauding warriors and enemy soldiers which did not include thinking that girls needed protection from local lads.
I am thinking because no where did I read, that local lads could be made to marry where as marauders and soldiers passed through with no concept of settling down or that a dad could demand the continued protection of the girl plus, it would mean their girl-child would be carried away if a marriage was the answer.
-
Prior to the Age of Enlightenment, people did not feel they deserved to be happy.
Interesting point, Barb. Duty, obligations, and doing what was needed to survive were all-important. Life wasn't easy. But, deserved or not, surely people must have tried for happiness. I think I'll look back in the sagas for clues, but they tend to deal more with actions than feelings.
-
We've been talking about costumes, and I find it's not hard to imagine the women in the costumes of the time, but I have trouble with the men. Armor, for instance. Arne is wearing a helmet and leather breastplate when he says goodbye to Kristin, but I can't quite see it. Lavrans must have worn armor when he served the King, but I don't see him that way; I can barely see him on his horse, with the huge protecting leather glove with a hawk perched on it.
-
Bellamarie As I think about the two situations of Kristin being assaulted, both times she made decisions that put herself in harms way.
i too think Kristin needs to learn from her experiences but I also think she was very sheltered and is very naive to the ways of the world. She also seems somewhat of a tomboy wanting to travel with her father and, indeed, she is much closer to her father than her mother. It seems she has always played with boys growing up and has no reason to distrust them until the incident with Bentein. Erland is very charming and experienced but I didn't get the impression they had sex. Did they? The first sexual awakenings are very powerful and could easily drive right and wrong out of Kristin's head.
-
Welcome Xine48, it is good to have someone who is so familiar with Kristin Lavransdatter. May I ask which translation you have, is it the Archer or Nunnally? I have the Archer and uploaded a sample of the Nunnally, and find the Archer translation much more able to set the era of the time.
So what does everyone think of Kristin falling in love with Erlend? It is quite interesting he is relation to Lady Aashild. He seemed to be informing Kristin of the family's dirty laundry, so to speak. She says her parents protected them from knowing too much. Why do you suppose he felt it necessary to tell her these things?
pg. 116 "Then all doors are not barred against Bjorn and Aashild?" asked Erlend. Kristin said they were thought much of, and that her father and many with him deemed that most of the tales about these two were untrue. "How liked you my kinsman, Munan Baardson?" asked Erlend, laughing silly. "I looked not much upon him," said Kristin, "and methought, too, he was not much to look on." "Knew you not," asked Erlend, "that he is her son?" "Son to Lady Aashild!" said Kristin, in great wonder. "Ay, her children could not take their mother's fair looks, though they took all else," said Erlend. "I have never known her first husband's name," said Kristin. "They were two brothers who wedded two sisters," said Erlend. "Baard and Nikulaus Munanson. My father was the elder, my mother was his second wife, but he had no children by his first. Baard, whom Aashild wedded, was not young either, nor, I trow, did they ever live happily together__ay, I was a little child when all this befell, they hid from me as much as they could...But she fled the land with Sir Bjorn and married him against the will of her kin__when Baard was dead. Then folk would have had the wedding set aside__they made out that Bjorn had sought her bed while her first husband was still living, and that they had plotted together t put away my father's brother. 'Tis clear they could not bring this home to them, since they had to forfeit all their estate__Bjorn had killed their sister's son, too__my mother's and Aashild's, I mean__"
Kristin's heart beat hard. At home her father and mother had kept strict watch that no unclean talk should come to the ears of their children or young folk__but still, things had happened in their own parish and Kristin had heard of them__a man had lived in adultery with a wedded woman. That was whoredom, one of the worst sins; 'twas said they plotted the husband's death, and they brought with it outlawry and the Church's ban."
Now she came to think, too, it seemed strange Erlend should think it fit to tell such tales of his near kin. But like enough he deemed she knew it already.
Did anyone feel the ballad Sivord the Dane sang, reminded you of the story Erlend had shared with Kristin? Does it also give you a strange feeling this to is what Erlend in intending for Kristin? To lead her from her family, taking her from Simon, who she has been betrothed to?
Barb, I imagine many women ended up in marriages of betrothal, or other situations that denied them true happiness. Was happiness considered a folly, back in these ages? Kristin seems so very happy, and in love with Erlend, yet I feel heartbreak is to become her.
Barb, If marriage was an arranged contract that had little to do with love than what was sex - surely not an expression of love
I'm not so sure I agree with, sex not being an expression of love. I feel Kristin, with Erlend is experiencing real feelings, she would consider love. He, I worry is taking advantage of her. For men, I feel sex was and still is an act of lust, something that satisfies their carnal need. Not that all men have sex for only that purpose, but it sure seems back in those days many men either took it by force, or simply because they were betrothed and married to the woman, regardless if they loved each other or not.
Halcyon, We were posting at the same time. pg. 120 When he put his hands upon her breast, she felt as though he drew her heart from out her bosom; he parted the folds of silk ever so little and laid a kiss betwixt them__ it sent a glow into her inmost soul.
Kristin then falls asleep in his arms and awakens, and from the promise they make to each other, I sensed the act had been committed. If not, it sure came close to it, considering the way she allowed herself to be caressed and kissed, by him.
-
Heading
-
I, too, feel that sex has not been committed at this point, though Erlend certainly has his eye on her. After she wakes, and asks him if he slept, he says:
"Perhaps someday the night will come when you and I dare to fall asleep together--I don't know what you will think once you have considered that. I have kept vigil here in the night. There is still so much between us, more than a naked sword had lain between you and me. Tell me, will you have affection for me after this night is over?.
I remember the stories of proxy marriages, in which the proxy in which the proxy goes through the ceremony in the name of the bridegroom, and then the couple lies in bed together with a naked sword between them,symbolizing that they are not having sex. The woman and the absent bridegroom are then legally married.
-
Yes, that was the rouse used by Tristram and Isolde - they were lovers but to avoid detection by the king, Isolde was married to the king, they laid a sword between them - "Mark came and saw for himself his wife and his nephew separated by a sword, and he assumed that this could only be a sign of their fidelity and loyalty toward him: her fidelity as a wife and his loyalty as an honorable knight. So thinking, he brought them back to his court, restoring each to his or her former position. "
Some versions of the tale have them laying together aboard ship as Tristram is bringing Isolde to the king for marriage and while sleeping off the love potion the naked sword slipped between them so that the king's men conclude Isolde was chaste for her marriage.
-
What is the oath the two swear to each other after the dance? Is it binding?
pg. 122 "Tell me if you will hold me dear, when this night is past?" "I will hold you dear, Sir Erlend," said Kristin. "I will hold you dear, so long as you will__and thereafter I will love none other." "Then," said Erlend slowly, "may God forsake me if any maid or woman come to my arms ere I may make you mine in law and honour. Say you this, too," he prayed. Kristin said: "May God forsake me if I take any other man to my arms so long as I live on earth." "We must go now," said Erlend, a little after, "before folk waken."
They passed along the wall among the bushes. "Have you bethought you," asked Erlend, "what further must be done in this?" " 'Tis for you to say what we must do, Erlend," answered Kristin. "Your father," he asked in a little, "they say at Gerdarud he is a mild and righteous man. Think you he will be so exceeding loth to go back from what he hath agree with Andres Darre?" "Father has said so often, he would never force us, his daughters." said Kristin. "The chief thing is that our lands and Simon's lie so fitly together. But I trow father would not that I should miss all my gladness in this world for the sake of that." A fear stirred within her that so simple as this perhaps it might not prove to be__but she fought it down. "Then maybe 'twill be less hard than I deemed in the night," said Erlend. "God help me, Kristin__methinks I cannot lose you now__unless I win you now, never can I be glad again."
As far as what kind of oath they made to each other, I feel they promised their hearts to each other, with expectations of marriage. As far as if it is binding, I tend to think Kristin does not have that right to make the oath, knowing her father has already betrothed her to Simon. Do the women even have a say in a marriage? The laws I posted prior stated there are way that a man can get out of a betrothal, due to certain circumstances. Will Simon be so ready to release her?
I get the feeling both Kristin and Erlend know it's not going to be so easy, as she seems to think it will be. And what about Simon? What rights does he have, since Kristin has already been promised to him? He sure did not have an ounce of sorrow when Arne was killed, defending Kristin's honor. I can only imagine his reactions when Erlend, the man who has already been an outcast for his past behaviors, seems to think he will take Kristin from him. Possibly yet another fight, just may end with yet another man dying, for their love of Kristin. But then, I am not so sure either of these men actually do love Kristin. ONLY time will tell.
PatH., "I, too, feel that sex has not been committed at this point, though Erlend certainly has his eye on her."
Methinks, Erlend had a whole lot more than his eye on her. He had his hands and lips on her. We know he went farther than he should have for sure, just how far we know not, but certainly enough for her to feel her heart, and body now belongs to him.
-
So Barb, the "naked sword," seems to be a ruse, to keep others from knowing they actually did do the deed.
Here is the link to The Legend of Tristan and Isolde. It is a bit lengthy, but I see what similarities there are in this legend, and our story here with Erlend, Kristin and Simon.
The legend of Tristan and Isolde is one of the most influential medieval romances, which was about a love triangle between the hero, his uncle and his uncle's wife.
http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/tristan.html
Could this naked sword also be a semblance, that Erlend and Simon will have a duel for Kristin?
-
I am quite amazed, and impressed with Sigrid Undset, and how she is seeming to use so many literary pieces to make up this story. So far we have been able to see The Canterbury Tales, and The Legend of Tristan and Isolde, and possibly a little of Romeo and Juliet, so far. It does not surprise me Sigrid Undset was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1928.
-
ok more tid bits
Marriage is an ancient institution that predates recorded history. Early marriage was seen as a strategic alliance between families, with the youngsters often having no say in the matter. In some cultures, parents even married one child to the spirit of a deceased child in order to strengthen familial bonds.
By about 250 years ago, the notion of love matches gained traction, meaning marriage was based on love and possibly sexual desire. But mutual attraction in marriage wasn't important until about a century ago. In fact, in Victorian England, many held that women didn't have strong sexual urges at all.
Marriage wasn't about equality until about 50 years ago. At that time, women and men had unique rights and responsibilities within marriage. For instance, marital rape was legal until the 1970s, and women often could not open credit cards in their own names
Parents historically controlled access to inheritance of agricultural land. But with the spread of a market economy, it's less important for people to have permission of their parents to wait to give them an inheritance or to work on their parents' land. Modern markets also allow women to play a greater economic role, which lead to their greater independence. And the expansion of democracy, with its emphasis on liberty and individual choice, may also have stacked the deck for love matches.
In many early cultures, men could dissolve a marriage or take another wife if a woman was infertile. However, the early Christian church was a trailblazer in arguing that marriage was not contingent on producing offspring. The early Christian church held the position that if you can procreate you must not refuse to procreate. But they always took the position that they would annul a marriage if a man could not have sex with his wife, but not if they could not conceive.
Marriages in the West were originally contracts between the families of two partners, with the Catholic Church and the state staying out of it. In 1215, the Catholic Church decreed that partners had to publicly post banns, or notices of an impending marriage in a local parish, to cut down on the frequency of invalid marriages (the Church eliminated that requirement in the 1980s). Still, until the 1500s, the Church accepted a couple's word that they had exchanged marriage vows, with no witnesses or corroborating evidence needed.
There were several reasons for prohibiting a marriage. One reason was consanguinity, meaning the couple was too closely related. If the boy or the girl had taken a monastic or religious vow, the marriage was than also prohibited. Other reasons that prohibited marriage, but were not grounds for a divorce, were rape, adultery and incest. A couple could also not be married during a time of fasting, such as lent or advent, and a couple not be married by someone who had killed someone.
-
OK down to Norway and the particulars of marriage
The juridical procedure in Norse society was complicated, but three ceremonial actions seem to have been necessary to make the marriage complete:
Engagement, which meant that the man and the woman were promised to each other. This was part of the deal, and economic compensation was necessary if one side wanted to break the engagement.
Wedding, where the bride was formally given to the bridegroom by her guardian, usually her father. This was done at a feast in the bridegroom's home. "I give thee my daughter" was the formula spoken by the guardian.
Bedding, where the couple went to bed together in the presence of witnesses. This was not a pornographic show. The witnesses left before any sexual action began. But the fact that the couple had gone to bed together was firmly established.
With Christianity came a different perspective. Marriage was now a sacrament, instituted by God and therefore something that concerned both church and society outside the two families. Mutual consent was demanded, and the husband was expected to be faithful. These were new ideas.
And then this bit which yes, sounds like it could complicate things for Kristin
In medieval Europe, in canon law, a betrothal could be formed by the exchange of vows in the future tense ("I will take you as my wife/husband," instead of "I take you as my wife/husband"), but sexual intercourse consummated the vows, making a binding marriage rather than a betrothal. Although these betrothals could be concluded with only the vows spoken by the couple, they had legal implications: Richard III of England had his older brother's children declared illegitimate on the grounds their father had been betrothed to another woman when he married their mother.
A betrothal is considered to be a 'semi-binding' contract. Normal reasons for invalidation of a betrothal include:
Revelation of a prior commitment or marriage
Evidence of infidelity
Failure to conceive (in 'trial marriage' cultures)
Failure of either party to meet the financial and property stipulations of the betrothal contract
Normally, either party can break a betrothal, though some financial penalty (such as forfeit of the bride price) usually applies.
-
I am quite amazed, and impressed with Sigrid Undset, and how she is seeming to use so many literary pieces to make up this story. So far we have been able to see The Canterbury Tales, and The Legend of Tristan and Isolde, and possibly a little of Romeo and Juliet, so far. It does not surprise me Sigrid Undset was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1928.
I'm impressed too, and there's more that we don't see. I've read that she incorporated a number of Norwegian ballads, not available in English, representing 6 different patterns. We won't be able to recognize the ballads, but these things have lasted for a reason, and we will feel their power.
-
Are we ready to move on to the next chapters? I can't wait to see what happens with Kristin and Erlend.
-
(https://scontent-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/p640x640/1795523_1601030423441999_2093423504600682919_n.jpg?oh=8514f3057585d793aa5a0f1c06179289&oe=55E0F3BA)
-
I'm also ready to move on. Since there was no betrothal drink does that mean nothing official between the families?
-
Not only did the drink not take place, but also according to the information I posted earlier, the bans must be posted, which has not yet been done. So, I suppose what is binding is the verbal promise of each man.
After the marriage was arranged a wedding notice was posted on the door of the church. The notice was put up to ensure that there were no grounds for prohibiting the marriage. The notice stated who was to be married, and if anyone knew any reasons the two could not marry they were to come forward with the reason. If the reason were a valid one the wedding would be prohibited (Rice).[i/]
-
Yes, let's move on, and read chapters 4-8, which will finish off The Wreath, about 50 pages. A LOT happens here.
-
Since there was no betrothal drink does that mean nothing official between the families?
That's right;the families don't even know that Kristin and Erlend have met. Barb's information makes it clear that the two think they have sworn a binding oath, but I don't think it would really stand up in court.
-
I wonder if the book will straighten things out because digging deeper - evidently there was an Archbishop Jon who in 1277 in Norway came up with a twist to the marriage process - we already know, thanks to Bellamarie that the Lateral Council (1215) speaks to the banns of marriage - the legal decree for the church states: "We decree that when marriages are to be contracted they must be announced publicly in the churches by the priests during a suitable and fixed time, so that if legitimate impediments exist, they may be made known. Let the priests nevertheless investigate whether any impediments exist." So, all marriages celebrated even by a priest without banns were considered invalid. The Council of Trent ((1545-1563) took a further step and decreed that marriage to be valid had to be before the parish priest and two or three witnesses.
In the book 'Women Old Norse Society' and in 'From Viking Stronghold to Christian Kingdom' both talk about Archbishop Jon, who in 1277 writes and makes legal within the Norwegian Church a new Christian Law (there was another Archbishop in Ireland during this period who decrees a similar text) that says that a man may not marry a maiden against her will and civil law that still controls the property and dowry says that where ancient law gave the arranging and agreeing on marriage to the men now the mother had to be a part of any arrangement and if there were no men than she had the right to negotiate - no where does it suggest the bride had any say so however, if she chooses to marry against the will of her family than she and subsequent children loose all inheritance.
If a marriage takes place in secret then the particular words become important - if he says "I Marry You" they are legally married however, if he says, "I Shall Marry You" they are not legally married. This applied in Jon's Christian Law and in Norwegian Ecclesiastical practice.
Evidently, and without writing here all that is said in both books - in a nutshell, concubinage was typical because marriage was more about passing along wealth and attempting by the church to make the marriage the only legal sexual relationship - Seems the barons are up in arms over this and it was their desire to have protection from what they say to a women during the heat of passion - according to Jon's law if a marriage did not include banns or the barons did not legally marry who they bedded there were consequences of land and treasury required in payment as compensation including rent income that further increases the church treasury. They saw the reduction in the father's rights and challenged the church's legal definition of marriage that required banns.
A struggle between Church and State takes place with the barons winning so that the marriage law was returned to the ancient laws of marriage that does not include banns and was in affect until the end of the fifteenth century. The decree was that the church can only issue arrangements that do not interfere with the king's laws which is the national law of Norway. Looks like Henry in England was not the only one getting out from under the legal arm of the church - here in Norway it was the barons who led the way.
And so I am anxious to read how all this is or not part of our story -
-
I am so glad to see Xine joining, she'll be a wonderful addition. What a super discussion you've all made of it... It's amazing how the book seems to call to you when you're doing something else, it's a quite interesting hold it has on one, but unfortunately I lack the hours in the day to even pick it up.
I have learned a great deal, however. The author is an expert in this period, which I found fascinating, and I think also, Pat, (thank you for the warm welcome), I think of it as less Medieval and more Norse tho I have no experience in Norse legend.
That bit about how the legends are woven in is magic. This is SUCH a useful discussion, and so thoughtfully done by all.
Thank you for this wonderful discussion, I am enjoying reading it. I never understood how people could say that, but I do now.
-
It's amazing how the book seems to call to you when you're doing something else, it's a quite interesting hold it has on one, but unfortunately I lack the hours in the day to even pick it up.
Yes, the book really sucks you in. Everyone, I really admire your self-control in keeping to the schedule. It isn't easy, I know, but it works better.
-
Ginny, The sentence I use to remember it is----We'll discuss it further as we walk farther down the road.
Carol Ann
-
Hi, bijou324, are you joining us, or just passing through?
-
I'm wondering why the early Church became involved with marriages and how did marriage become a sacrament? I bet Barb knows. And were the Church rules the same in every location? I find this fascinating.
-
Halcyon, I found this very informative link as far as marriage becoming a sacrament with the Catholic church.
When did marriage become a sacrament?
Long before it became a sacrament, marriage was a part of many human cultures, and some sense of the
greatness of the matrimonial union existed in all of them. Married couples are mentioned in Scripture
throughout both Old and New Testaments. And it is clear that Jesus‟ parents were married as were at least
some of the Apostles.
Before the 11th century, there were no uniform church regulations for marriage in the Latin (Roman) Church.
For the first few centuries of Christianity, the community simply adopted familial customs of marriage in the
home. Church leaders relied primarily on the civil government of Rome to regulate marriage and divorce
between Christians and non-Christians alike. With the fall of the Roman Empire, the Church gradually began
to take legal control over marriage and make it an official church function. In the Middle Ages, Augustine‟s
teaching led the Church to an explicit consciousness of the sacramentality of marriage among the baptized.
In the twelfth century, the idea of marriage as a „sacrament‟, i.e., as something fundamentally regulated by
the Church, was established.
The Council of Trent in the 16th c. capped a long development by declaring marriage as one of the seven
sacraments of the Church.
From: Martos, J. Doors to the Sacred. Liguori, 2001; Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, p.1236. Paulist Press, 2000;
Catechism of Catholic Church, #1603; People of Faith Generations, v.4, issue 4, Marriage, p. 4.
http://www.resurrection-catholic.org/learn/sacraments/marriage/questions.pdf
-
Thank you Bellamarie. I'm taking ginny's Latin class and it is very interesting to me what an influence not only the Church had but the Romans. They were everywhere.
Has everyone finished reading? I love this. It's sanctioned gossip. We can discuss these characters and not hurt anyone!
-
PatH., I must say it takes much restraint to not read ahead as things keep developing so quickly. I must admit when we were assigned chapter 1-3 I was so engrossed, that I realized I had gone into chapter 4 without even realizing it, and immediately stopped myself. I have now started using my bookmark to stop me.
Well now we have much more information, and as I suspected, Simon and Lavrans are not at all happy with Kristin's decision to go back on the betrothal. Her behavior is really starting to upset me. She seems to be thinking only of herself, her wants, her needs, her happiness, although her actions are not at all helping with keeping her reputation in tact. She lost her best friend Arne in a fight for her honor, and here we are yet again, two men ready to fight for her honor. Simon seems to actually care about Kristin's family name. Erlend, once again seems to be filled with lust, and is willing to put Kristin in danger, and not care about what this behavior is doing to her reputation. I don't know why I was surprised to read:
Erlend clasped her to him, and groaned: "I cannot bring you to Husaby, Kristin." "Why can you not?" she asked softly. "Eline came thither in the autumn, " said he after a moment. "I cannot move her to leave the place," he went on hotly, "not unless I bear her to the sledge by force and drive her away with her. And that methought I could not do__she has brought both our children home with her." Kristin felt herself sinking, sinking. In a voice breaking with fear, she said: "I deemed you were parted from her." "So I deemed I, too" answered Erllend shortly. "But she must have heard in Osterdal, where she was, that I had thought of marriage."
But not too get too far ahead, we now know for certain Kristin and Erlend have indeed had sex, and it is ongoing. He suddenly disappears from her life and she lies in fear of being pregnant. Before he leaves he tells Kristin what they are doing is not grave sin.
pg. 131 "I have been fearing you would be angry with me," he said. "You must not grieve for our sin," he said, sometime after. "Tis not a deadly sin. God's law is not like to the law of the land in this... Gunnulv, my brother, once mad this matter plain to me__if two vow to have and hold each other fast for all time, and there after lie together, then they are wedded before God and may not break their troths without great sin. I can give you the words in Latin when they come to my mind__I knew them once...." Kristin wondered a little why Erlend's brother should have said this__but she thrust from her the hateful fear that it might have been said of Erlend and another__and sought to find comfort in his words.
Erlend sure is a smooth talker. Kristin has had red flags throughout the days with Erlend, but she just keeps refusing to admit to herself he is wrong for her. She finds out she is not pregnant, and seeks out Brother Edvin to confess her sins. She tells him of what Erlend said about them not sinning and Brother Edvin explains to her:
"I see well, Kristin, some one who knew it not to the full has spoken to you of the canonical law. You could not bind yourself by oath to this man without sinning against your father and mother; them had God set over you before you met him. And is it not a sorrow and a shame for his kin, too, if they learn that he has lured astray the daughter of a man who has borne his shield with honour at all seasons__betrothed, too, to another? I hear by your words, you deem you have not sinned so greatly__yet dare you not confess this thing to your appointed priest? And if so be you think you are as good as wed to this man, wherefore set you not on your head the linen coif of wedlock, but go still with flowering hair amidst the young maids with whom you can have no great fellowship any more__for now must the chief of your thoughts be with other things than they have in mind?"
I suspected she was in a boatload of heartache with Erlend, and now it is coming a reality.
-
It'll be a while before I can get my act together today, but in the meantime, here's a statue of Kristin in Sel, where Jorundgaard is supposed to be.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--X13Ggi56Do/T-DOmznEg1I/AAAAAAAAAgc/bG5kVLHV_V0/s1600/statue.jpg (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--X13Ggi56Do/T-DOmznEg1I/AAAAAAAAAgc/bG5kVLHV_V0/s1600/statue.jpg)
-
I requested the movie Kristin Lavransdatter from the library. It is a fairly new video but I was shocked that it was in Norwegian. Yes, it had subtitles but I only got partway through it. Ended up returning it to the library.
-
I am not sure what pages we are discussing?? I have fallen prey to the call of the BOOK and can't stop reading it. But can go back to the proper readings without giving away anymore than we are discussing here.
I did not know that Kristin really existed until I saw PatH's picture of the statue of her. And also, did not know that a movie has been produced around Kristin's story.
I,too, have problems reading subtitles and trying to follow the story on film. Just doesn't work for me.
-
Welcome, Annie. I see you've caught up. The first book of the trilogy is The Wreath, or The Bridal Wreath in Archer's translation. It's divided into three parts, and we have just finished the second part, also called The Wreath, and are about to start talking about chapters 4-8.
Since you've just started discussing, how about telling us what you feel about the book. Aside from the fact that it sucked you in, as it did the rest of us, what are your thoughts about it?
-
Kristin didn't really exist, but all the places in the book are real, and the statue is at Sel, called Sil in my book, where Jorundgaard is supposed to be.
-
BELLAMARIE: "She seems to be thinking only of herself, her wants, her needs, her happiness, although her actions are not at all helping with keeping her reputation in tact."
I forget how old Kristen is supposed to be at this point: 17 or 18. She has gone from being a little girl to awakening sexually with a bang, and has no clue how to handle it. Like many teenagers, the changes that are happening in her body are so overwhelming, she can't see beyond them. No mother there to recognize the signs and help her (not that her mother would have been much help -- she seems completely lost in her own sorrows). And the nuns are oblivious.
I feel very sorry for her -- she may pay for this the rest of her life. Not that she has lost much in Simon: I think he would have been a domineering husband. But Erland seems just as bad: "act first, and try to clean up the mess later if you can't get out of it, whining about it on the way and assuming that tomorrow things will somehow be all right" seems to be his motto. I know people like that and they stumble through life, hurting people and moving on.
-
Hi Pat H. Unfortunately I can't join just yet as I'm in the middle of "A Mountain of Crumbs" which I moderate for my book group at the local library. I am an avid reader and have followed you folks for years.
I own "The Wreath" (Nunnally trans) and hope to join in when I can.
-
Thank you for the "further" "farther" sentence, bijou, I can remember that and it helps. :)
-
Hi, bijou, and welcome. Do follow along, and comment when you feel like it, or have the time. It's encouraging when our secret admirers say hi. I bet if you finish The Wreath, you'll get the next two.
-
One of my first thoughts concerning Kristin was are we forgetting that she is just a teenager with very little understanding of her feelings for Erlend and he is over ten years older than she. Good grief! This seems to be a foretelling of a very sticky situation. And he is certainly a smooth talker.
Has anyone brought up the ballad sung during the banquet and dancing on pg.131? I am trying to discover who the Danish King and Queen were. And the song does tell the story of a Queen involved with another before her marriage. And what this has to do with our lovers. Back in a few!
-
Annie it is so nice to see you join in the discussion. Good points!
JoanK., She has gone from being a little girl to awakening sexually with a bang, and has no clue how to handle it.
Annie, One of my first thoughts concerning Kristin was are we forgetting that she is just a teenager with very little understanding of her feelings
I too feel that Kristin's new awakenings into womanhood is a bit for her to understand, and to try to restrain. Erlend is the one taking full advantage of her youthfulness. But, the writer keeps telling us how Kristin seems to see the red flags, but continues to ignore them. Regardless of how old she is, she does know what she is doing is not only causing her hurt, and shame, thus bringing her to wanting to confess.
I haven't found myself feeling sorry for Kristin, because I feel after what happened with Arne and Bentein, she should have understood what her behavior caused, and not repeated it. At some point she must start taking responsibility for her behavior, and realize just how much it affects others. She has spent a year in the convent, she knows right from wrong, and she has been taught through the faith how a young girl/woman should behave. The nuns may be lax in their supervision of her, but she does continue to sneak out, and even allow herself to meet up with Erlend at a house of ill repute. She is risking herself being known as a prostitute. Erlend is being self indulging, and if he truly loved her and valued her, he would never want her near a place like this. When Simon shamed him in front of Kristin, I would have felt that would have been enough for him to come to his senses and end the relationship.
Annie, I too wonder who the Queen and King are in the ballad. I had posted earlier, Did anyone feel the ballad Sivord the Dane sang, reminded you of the story Erlend had shared with Kristin? Does it also give you a strange feeling this too is what Erlend in intending for Kristin? To lead her from her family, taking her from Simon, who she has been betrothed to?
Well, it seems the ballad indeed is exactly what Erlend intends. I do not see this ending in.... they lived happily ever after.
-
Need to get caught up - be back later today...
-
At some point she must start taking responsibility for her behavior, and realize just how much it affects others.
She gets halfway there after talking to Brother Edvin.
Chapter 6, first page: "Up until the day when she gave Erlend her promise, she had always tried diligently to do everything that was right and good, but she had done everything at the bidding of other people. Now she felt that she had grown up from maiden to woman. This was not just because of the passionate caresses she had received and given. She had not merely left her father's guardianship and subjected herself to Erlend's will. Brother Edvin had impressed upon her the responsibility of answering for her own life, and for Erlend's as well, and she was willing to bear this burden with grace and dignity.
From this point on, she is aware that her decisions are hers, and is willing to accept blame and consequences for them (Erlend's actions too, which seems a bit much). What she still hasn't quite faced is the effect her actions have on innocent bystanders.
-
Added to that Pat, in the introduction in my copy of Norwegian Folk Tails it says, - in the middle ages, when most of the tales found and cataloged during the early nineteenth century, were the stories shared and passed down among generations, the stories depict the tremendous imagination of the people that believed strongly in their independence and self-relieance - (this collecting of 'folk' stories coincides with the Grimm Brothers collection and the F.J. Child collection in the British Isles)
A Norse History was compiled that tell how everyone complained with tales that always 'belittled the king'. The king is spoken of as if a fat, genial farmer and representatives of the church and their laws are treated irreverently. Nevertheless, standards of guilt and justice prevail, and moral law is present. Trolls are awesome but stupid and are invariably outwitted and vanquished. The hero is usually the Ash lad, the one who stays by the home fires and is often poking at the ashes. He is the dreamer, kind and honest and possesses an open, unprejudiced mind, often of humble birth but who surmounts overwhelming obstacles to win bride and money. The Ash Lad is most often despised by the parents and his own brother and parents.
Which sounds to me like a young man we would think was good husband material is not appreciated by parents and if Kristin is growing up she too would take on the values of a parent. That to marry the good and noble means she is no more than the bride that goes with the money - in order to have some autonomy and personal worth she is on her own since the laws of the Church are scorned and the King's law of the land are treated lightly she must be self-reliant, take risks and through trial and error, make her own rules and make her own way much like the Vikings who remain the icons for a brave and adventurous life.
-
Well, once Kristin has besmirched her name and her family's name, she will indeed need to be self-reliant, and possibly have to deal with the dung:
pg. 132 "But now I do scarce know what the end will be," said he. "Maybe I shall sit at last on a mountain croft like Bjorn Gunnarson, and bear out the dung on my back as did the thralls of old, because I have no horse." "God help you for sure__I trow I know more of farm_work and country ways than you." "I can scarce think you have borne out the dung-basket," said he, laughing too. "No; but I have seen how they spread the dung out__and sown corn have I, well nigh every year at home.
Yes, PatH., once Kristin goes to confess her sins I felt she would come to her senses. As soon as Erlend returns she acts even worse than before, allowing herself to go to Erlend at the house of prostitution.
I like how Lavrans points out to Kristin no upright man would act as Erlend has, knowing she was promised to another man. He still has no idea who the man she loves is at this point. I can only imagine what he will do once he finds out who he is.
pg. 172 "You are young yet, and not over-wise__and to cast his eyes upon a maid who is promised to another__tis not the wont of an upright man."
Kristin sounds like a child throwing a tantrum when she responds, "I cannot father. Thus it stands, that should I not get this man, then you can take me back to the convent, and never take me from it again...I shall not live long there, I trow."
-
I don't begrudge Kristin her moments of happiness. She has never been allowed to lead her own life. Now she is seizing every opportunity to experience freedom. She seems fearless, thriving on the clandestine meetings and play acting when necessary to escape the convent. I think of her as a heroine, bucking society's norm, standing up to her father and refusing to marry for money and land. Those moments of happiness might be her only ones.
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
April/May Book Club Online
Kristin Lavransdatter
by Sigrid Undset
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kirsten_lavransdatter/Bjolstad.jpg) |
This Nobel prize-winning book is the tumultuous story of the daughter of a 14th century Norwegian nobleman-farmer.
I loved it when I first read it decades ago, and now there’s a new translation which makes it even better.
Schedule: April 21-25 Jørundgaard, Chapters 1-4
April 26-30 Jørundgaard, Chapters 5-7
May 1 or 2-4, The Wreath, Chapters 1-3
May 5-9, The Wreath, Chapters 4-8
May 10-?, Lavrans Bjorgulfson, Chapters 1-4
Questions:
Jorundgaard
Chapters 5-7:
How much control did young people have over who they married?
Why can't Kristin and Arne even think of marrying?
Kristin doesn't much want to marry Simon. Why didn't she ask her father to release her from the betrothal?
After her encounter with Bentein, Kristin made some mistakes that made her more vulnerable to gossip. Should she have avoided these?
What do you think of Simon?
In the fuss over Arne's death, Simon behaves very capably and sensibly. Why does his calmness make Kristin like him less?
The Wreath:
Chapters 1-3
Kristin seems to fall for Erlend instantly and completely. Does this this seem realistic? Does Erlend feel the same way?
What is Erlend like? Can you like or approve of him?
What is the oath the two swear to each other after the dance? Is it binding?
|
|
Discussion Leader: PatH
-
Yes, I think that is it - by 'refusing to marry for money and land' she is not also a commodity - she wants the freedom to be her own person and at the time both Church and King promoted laws of Betrothal and Marriage that was a legal document binding property and wealth, even if someone backs out the consequences are in payment of land and wealth.
She reminds you of women in the early 70s with free love and burning bras - or even the adventurous pioneer women who hung onto their land, fighting off those wanting to take the ranch after an Indian attack killed off the men or those who arrived in this nation and immediately shipped out to the west as ranch cooks or prostitutes.
Great quote to share Bellamarie - "then you can take me back to the convent, and never take me from it again...I shall not live long there, I trow." - you are right-on IDing her aren't you with her tantrum - funny
-
I'm not seeing Kristin as a heroine at this point in the story. Her behavior has been selfish, impulsive, petulant, and harmful to herself, her family and others.
I never was into the free spirit, burning bras, drugs, free love or Woodstock, so I guess maybe I am seeing this from a different perspective. I've never been someone who could bring shame to my family, for my own selfish wants. Her father loves her unconditionally, he has spoiled her, and yet now he is trying to teach her how this man, who she can't live without, is not a respectful man, and is not worthy of her, because of his actions. I can't see her fighting for anything, but being with an undeserving man, who already has illegitimate children, by a woman who has now returned to his house. It's as though Kristin has gone from the frying pan, into the fire with Erlend.
I'm all for strong women standing up for justice, freedom, independence, ownership, and rights, but I just don't see any of that here. I don't even see her going against the church, if anything she fled to the church for absolution. I don't see her refusing to not marry for money or property, she has not even really given real thought to that. Her response to Erlend, is that of a girl just simply wanting to be with him. It is easy for her to say she would shovel dung to be with him, but when her little fairy tale became a reality, I sense it would sooner or later prove to be more than she imagined. She has been duped by Erlend. Maybe he has ulterior motives other than satisfying his sexual desires. Erlend seemed to have known Kristin before they met. He seemed to have a purpose for telling her all about Lady Aashild, how they are related, and how he is hoping to win back favor with the king. It could be Erlend sees Kristin and her good family name as a way to earn back that favor with the king. I am very skeptical, and do not see this ending well.
Can't we all remember a time a boy/man captured our young heart, and we all felt we could not live without him? I know I sure can, when I was 17 yrs old. He was a good person but was experimenting with drugs....early 70s, and sad to say he is dead today. Left a wife and children behind at an early age. I remember going to the funeral home with my husband, and standing there looking at his wife and children, thinking, that could have been me.
I know Kristin will never be happy with Simon, she wants the rebel, the risks involved in the sneaking away seems to have excited her. I just hope her risk taking, does not prove to cost her or anyone else, more than just hurt and shame.
P.S. Barb, I would love to burn all bras today!!!! :o
-
But Erland seems just as bad: "act first, and try to clean up the mess later if you can't get out of it, whining about it on the way and assuming that tomorrow things will somehow be all right" seems to be his motto. I know people like that and they stumble through life, hurting people and moving on.
JoanK sure has the knack of skewering people with a few pithy words. Do you agree with her analysis? Is there more to him than this? And what does he really feel for Kristin? Did he just kind of blunder into the relationship, or did he fall in love first?
-
I'm still asking myself if Erlend truly loves Kristin. Like Lavrans points out, his behavior is not worthy of her. I do agree with JoanK., Erlend acts without thinking. He pretty much does what he wants, his track record is not that of a trustworthy man. I don't think he blundered into this relationship at all, he used two different girls from the convent to give messages to Kristin. His behavior was pretty fast, and inappropriate with Kristin.
-
In rereading these pages, I now have a real admiration for Simon. I really feel that he is sincere in his concern for Kristen's actions with Erlend. Was really impressed with Simon's speech about Laveran's disappointment over this affair (when he is informed of it) and that no one realizes what an incredible person he is: "He could be a Chieftan, a leader of men"! He points all this out to Kristen: "You, his women, have so little understanding of the kind of man Laveran's is. Trond Gjesling says that he doesn't keep you all in line. But why should Lavrans bother with such things when he was born to rule over men? He had the makings of a chieftain, he was someone men would have followed, glady; but these are not the times for such men." Simon really likes his betrothed's father. Much respect there.
Maybe Kristen will listen and learn as Simon speaks of her fall into hell with
Erlend. Her not paying attention to the way Erlend treats her; sneaking her into a brothel just so he can have his way with her?? Then when all this is said and done, he goes on moaning and groaning about how his possible loss of honor and maybe not being able to improve his standing with the king. These two idiots are so childish when they speak to one another.
Another thing that bothers me is Kristen's thinking that all of this is her fault and non of Erland's. Which means that everything that goes wrong within her hoped for dreams, will affect Erland worse than it does her. Is this part of what we can assume she has been taught by her parents and the church? Was this a medieval thinking process?
-
Excellent points, Annie. Simon does show up well here. He seems to love Kristin, but will not force her. And he is willing to take the blame for breaking the betrothal with everyone but Lavrans. Was anyone surprised at Simon's high opinion of Lavrans?
-
Another thing that bothers me is Kristen's thinking that all of this is her fault and non of Erland's. Which means that everything that goes wrong within her hoped for dreams, will affect Erland worse than it does her. Is this part of what we can assume she has been taught by her parents and the church? Was this a medieval thinking process?
This bothers me too. Kristin's attitude seems odd. When she realized she was ready to be responsible for her own actions, she also took responsibility for Erlend's. Everything he does, she seems to think is her problem not his. Perhaps her thinking is that now they are one flesh, but in that case they would surely share equally.
Now she is feeling the pain of seeing him act badly and be humiliated, and it doesn't sway her love, and she still thinks it's her problem.
-
Annie, I so agree with everything you have posted. I was very wary of Simon early on, I still have a bit of a a hesitation where he is concerned, but he is showing very much respect for Lavrans in saying this. And, ironically, it seems that Lavrans has the same respect for Simon. At this point, Simon does seem worthy and deserving of Kristin. She is just so self absorbed, and can only think about Erlend, who is not at all worthy or deserving of her.
I am shocked Erlend would even want to show his face after the humiliation Simon dealt to him at the house of prostitution. Just the mere fact, of Simon coming there and knowing Erlend has deduced Kristin to this level of shame would be enough for any man to never want to show his face again.
Are we ready to go on to the next chapters to see what happens next?
-
Yes, we should move on. Kristin has gotten free of her engagement to Simon, but she's still hanging fire, waiting to see if she can marry Erlend. Let's read the first four chapters of the next section, Lavrans Bjorgulfson.
-
well she did not like Simon from the get go - she described him as having a moon face as I remember and then she just became resigned for awhile.
-
Yes, Kristin was lukewarm about Simon from the start, and went along with the betrothal just because she didn't want to go against her father.
The way she falls in love with Erlend is very strange, though--like something out of a fairy tale, and she has been put under a spell. The witch-like Aashild tells Kristin that Erlend would be right for her. Later, Erlend rescues her in a romantic way. As soon as she learns who he is, she turns bright red, and from then on, she seems totally caught--no control whatever--loves Erlend unconditionally, and is willing to do whatever he tells her to. But it's a fairy tale with a very uncertain real-life side, and no guaranteed happy ending in sight.
-
Hah just thought - could this be a moral story - do what your parents recommend - they know what is best for you because on your own you do not have the maturity to know what is best for yourself? See, this is what happens... hmmm
-
Just finished chapter 1-4, and all I can say at this time, is I am furious! I am a hopeless romantic, I root for the Romeo and Juliet type of love, where families like the Montagues and Capulets are feuding, preventing their children to be together. But this story has just gone to a whole new level of destruction for love, for me.
Barb, I'm beginning to think the moral of the story is, be damned with others, take what you want at any cost. In this story the cost are other people's lives, at the expense of two selfish lovers. I am NOT rooting for Erlend and Kristin to be together. They are not going to get away with all that has taken place in these chapters. Mark my word, someone saw and knows something, and will come forward. I am really hurting for Kristin's parents right now. Lady Ashild has betrayed Lavrans after all his kindness.
I want to give others a chance to read the chapters before discussing the highlights of these chapters. Be back tomorrow.
Hope you all had a wonderful Mother's Day!
-
Good Morning,
I just became a member here and, while waiting for the Admin to approve me, was inspired to get a copy of the newer translation of this book. I devoured The Wreath already over the weekend and am on to The Wife. I'd like to sit in on these discussions but don't know if I may post since I wasn't here from the beginning. I would never have discovered this wonderful book except for this website so many thanks!
-
Please post, the more the merrier. No spoilers though as we are only up to Chapter 4 in the section Lavrans Bjorgulfson. PatH will put up questions about these chapters and we'd love to read your comments. The read is quite compelling, isn't it?
Bellamarie. What about Eline's actions? She seemed crazed. She would have killed Kristin and/or Erland.
-
Stella, Welcome!! We would love to have you join us in our discussion. Just a little note, we read certain chapters assigned by our moderator. As we move on, we are always able to discuss anything in the past chapters we have already completed. The only rule we try to follow, is to not post spoilers, if you have read beyond the chapters assigned.
Halcyon, Eline's behavior was deplorable, and inexcusable, but keep in mind Erlend has already gotten her pregnant twice, vowed to marry her after she gave birth to their first child, and has not only backed out of that promise, but went off and slept with Kristin and vowed a betrothal to her. This guy is despicable, and Kristin is allowing him to change her from the person she has been, into someone she does not even like or recognize. How many people have to lose their lives due to Kristin's own selfish actions? The count is mounting. Erlend I feel is not at all trustworthy or redeemable as far as I am concerned. He has no respect for Kristin, his relatives, Lady Aashild, or Kristin's family. She sees her parents in so much hurt, and yet all she can do is dig in and stay unfeeling. I have to say what I think, she is acting like a spoiled brat! How can she still care about Erlend, after what happened in Lady Ashild's house?
-
Thank you for the kind welcome. I can't put the book down, but I promise: no spoilers!!!
Kristin seems to fall for Erlend instantly and completely. Does this this seem realistic? Does Erlend feel the same way?
This "love at first sight" reminds me of something I'd learned in a course on Jungian psychology that stuck with me. Supposedly a person "projects" their anima/animus [their 'inner female/male side'] onto the opposite sex and develops a strong, galvanizing emotional attraction to a person about whom they might know very little. However accurate that may be, it certainly reminds me of Kristen's undiscerning and compelling attraction to Erlend.
What is Erlend like? Can you like or approve of him?
So far, I don't think Erlend has quite the same thing going on, but it's difficult to be sure since we hear the story from Kristin's viewpoint. He seems compulsive and self sabotaging by nature; I think it's possible that he could act this way about any lovely young woman--as we know he has done before. I can't find it in myself to like this character, as my Dad used to say "Handsome is as handsome does"!
What is the oath the two swear to each other after the dance? Is it binding?
Erlend pledges to have Kristin "in keeping with the law" before any other woman comes into his arms. Not exactly the same, Kristin pledges to "never have another man again". There is nothing binding here as far as Canon Law goes, but both Erlend and Kristin take it quite seriously.
-
Welcome, StellaMaris. Of course you can post; it's good to have you, and the more viewpoints the better. As Halcyon says, please don't say anything about the parts we haven't officially read yet, but anything up through chapter 4 in Lavrans Bjorgulfson is fair.
I won't be a very active presence today, as I'm spending it in airports, but then my travels are done for a while.
-
That's an interesting idea, StellaMaris, one I hadn't thought of. I always wondered how such an attraction would wear. The "anima" might have trouble actually filling the role s/he had been cast in. I also thought Kristin might be acting out a myth or ballad, since Undset did incorporate some of those into the book.
-
Bellamarie, Perhaps Erlend changed his mind about Eline after he discovered how conniving she was. What about forgiveness? Should he not have any happiness in his life because of a foolish promise made years ago? Just being devil's advocate here.
-
It's going to be hard to know what Eline is really like, since almost everything we know about her comes from Erlend. We do see that she's conniving, and she was willing to poison, but she certainly hasn't gotten a fair deal.
-
Halycyon, How does one have happiness when they know it has come at the expense of others? Erlend does not seem to be the least bit remorseful, nor does he change his ways, so why would he deserve to be forgiven? He first got Eline pregnant, and made her his concubine, then he comes on strong with Kristin, charms her into sleeping with him taking advantage of her youthfulness, and pays no mind to the cost, shame and harm that will come to her, or her family, by his actions. He stands by and allows others to clean up his messes. He let Simon deal with telling Lavrans the betrothal was off, while Kristin hides his name so her father does not confront him, and now he allows Lady Aashild and her husband, along with Kristin plot the entire burial of Eline.
As a Catholic religion teacher, I do know that in order for you to receive absolution, you must make a heartfelt, confession, and promise to sin no more. As Kristin was told when she attempted to confess her sins. Neither of them have shown reason enough to be forgiven at this point.
Eline said she intended to give the drink to Erlend and herself. She was a woman gone mad. She has gotten disgraced, because of her actions with Erlend. He lived with her for ten years. That is far longer than when he promised to marry her, after their first child. With everything that happened that night, I feel her death could have been avoided, had Erlend and Kristin handled it better. They could both see she was out for revenge for how he had treated her. Kristin has no idea Eline was pregnant. So two lives were lost.
I just can't find any sympathy at this point for Erlend or Kristin. I am even more upset with Lady Aashild, first for going along with luring Kristin to her house, then deciding she would help Erlend sneak off with Kristin, and then covering up the entire death of Eline.
I just know this is not something they will be getting away with. When all the stars line up against you, it's usually because it's not meant to be.
-
I think what we have to look at here is the sexual mores of the Middle Ages - here is something I found and I also found a good web site that I will link -
Also, different for us in our training, we have to remember that Penance was established after the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, only a hundred years earlier than this story, as anything we would recognize today - the edict established a secret confession with priests directed not to reveal what they heard from a penitent where as, prior it was a congregation speaking aloud in church. The edict also said penance should be practiced once a year - Penance was more about redemption than about keeping track of sins and even a women who had several children out of wedlock could be redeemed through confession but she asked for absolution from the Bishop rather than the local priest, with the Bishop assigning the penance of prayer, fasting and almsgiving.
This is how we had so many churches, cathedrals, even monasteries built - the wealthy and Royalty of Europe often received a penance of building a church or shrine or monastery.
During this time in the north, many no longer went to confession because there was a Tariff attached or some because the list of sins had changed so, they either found a priest who did it the old way or they did not go to confession since it did not become a 'must' till after the Council of Trent in 1551.
As to the attitude about sex this may help - "Prostitution thrived in the Middle Ages, whether it was approved by the Church or not. In larger towns, prostitutes could practice their trade in anonymity and it was regarded as an honest and essential profession.
For a time, the Church actually approved of prostitution. Ironically, the practice was regarded as a way of preventing adultery and homosexuality on a larger scale, so it was viewed a necessary evil. St. Thomas Aquinas, one of the sterner theologians, wrote: “If prostitution were to be suppressed, careless lusts would overthrow society.”
The most respectable prostitutes worked in brothels, or “stews.” Most villages had one. In some villages, prostitutes had to identify themselves by particular pieces of clothing, such as a veil with a yellow stripe. Women who practiced outside of a brothel were often exposed to the harsher elements of society. Some were imprisoned, tortured or mutilated."
And so it appears Kristin was being protected by having sex in the brothel.
And here is the link to a web page with lots of information - http://www.library.rochester.edu/robbins/sex-society
-
Kristin nor Eline were prostitutes. Erlend having Kristin enter the brothel, so he could have sex with her was not to protect her, it was because he was sneaking around, so no one would see or know the two of them were together. When Simon came to the brothel and saw Kristin there, you can be assured Simon was not seeing Kristin as being protected, he clearly saw it for what it was, Erlend demeaning, shaming, disrespecting and disgracing Kristin. He could see Erlend was such a selfish person, he would bring Kristin to such a shameful place, to satisfy his own sexual desires.
As for confession, I don't think Erlend is the least bit interested in confessing all his sins, especially now that he has the blood of Eline and her an unborn child on his hands.
-
Barb wrote: I think what we have to look at here is the sexual mores of the Middle Ages.
Along those lines I think we need to consider the sexual desires of Kristin. She is a strong, healthy young woman with natural desires and seems to have enjoyed her time with Erland. Kristin has always seemed like a caged bird waiting to be set free. She is a forerunner of the sexual revolution. And Eline. She is older than Erland and could easily have seduced him because she was so unhappy with an old man for a husband. Again she had natural desires. I don't think Erland, just because he's a man, should be looked at as a sexual predator. Plenty of cougars out there.
How do we know Eline is really pregnant? We only have her word.
-
Halycon,
And Eline. She is older than Erland and could easily have seduced him because she was so unhappy with an old man for a husband.
It makes no mention Eline is older than Erlend, if anything I think it mentions Erlend is much older than Kristin, is he not thirty-five and Kristin is but seventeen?
Eline it seems is quite beautiful regardless of her age:
pg. 204 Kristin had never seen a woman with such great eyes; they were dark brown, round and hard; but under the narrow coal-black eyebrows and the long lashes they were strangely beautiful against her golden hair. The skin of her cheeks and lips was chafed and raw from her ride in the cold, but it could it could not spoil her much; she was too fair for that. The heavy riding-dress covered up her form, but she bore herself in it as does only a woman most proud and secure in the glory of a fair body. She was scarce as tall as Kristin; but she held herself so well that she seemed yet taller than the slender, spare-limbed girl.
Halcyon, I don't think Erland, just because he's a man, should be looked at as a sexual predator.
It seems from what Eline says, Erlend came wooing her when she was still married, and she was still a maid:
pg. 207 "What will you do," she said, "if Erlend one day grow weary of you, and offers to wed you to his serving-man? Will you do his will in that as well?" Kristin made no answer. Then the other laughed, and said; "You do his will in all things now, I well believe. What think you, Kristin__shall we throw dice for our man, we too paramours of Erlend Nikulausson?" When no answer came, she laughed again and said: "Are you so simple, that you deny not you are his paramour?" "To you I care not to lie," said Kristin. "Twould profit you but little if you did." answered Eline, still laughing. "I know the boy too well. He flew at you like a black-cock, I trow, the second time you were together. "Tis pity of you too, fair child that you are." Kristin's cheeks grew white. Sick with loathing, she said low; "I will not speak with you__" "Think you he is like to deal with you better than with me?" went on Eline. Then Kristin answered sharply: "No blame will I ever cast on Erlend, whatever he may do. I went astray of my own will__I shall not whimper or wail if the path lead out to the rocks__." Eline went silent for a while. Then she said unsteadily, flushing red: "I was a maid too, when he came to me, Kristin__even though I had been wife in name to the old man for seven years. But like enough you could never understand what the misery of that life was."
I think both Eline and Erlend are two untrustworthy people, although I tend to believe Eline more, because we have seen the actions of Erlend throughout the beginning of his meeting Kristin. Eline was correct in saying, he came at her like a black-cock the second time. I was shocked at how quickly Erlend had sex with Kristin. Erlend did not keep his promise to Eline when he came after her while she was married, after she had his first child, and he continued the affair for ten years. She even mentions she and Erlend had relations in the summer of this year. Lady Aashild even tells him it is hard to believe his word because of his actions.
As for Eline being pregnant, I guess we have to take her at her word, since we have nothing to dispute it now that she is dead, and Erlend believes her:
pg. 206 Erlend turned up to her a face besmeared with wretchedness. "She is with child," he said, and shut his eyes.
Eline sums it all up in her talk to Kristin. She sees Kristin is young, she has been taken in by Erlend's charm, just as Eline was. As for Kristin enjoying being with Erlend, on the contrary, she cries, and she feels she has sinned. That is not blissful happiness, or unrequited love. Yes, her sexual awareness has come to light, but it is sad a person like Erlend is the one to be her first. I haven't seen this as a girl going into the sexual revolution. Other women back in those days, I am sure had sex outside of marriage, prostitution was not rare, paramours/concubines, were not rare. What this is, is a young virgin, who has been duped by a very much older, experienced man, who refuses to step up and take any responsibility for his past and present wrongs. Kristin has seen the red flags, it is not so much her love for Erlend, as it is her selfish stubborn pride, that causes her to refuse to see Erlend's wrongs.
Now Kristin is going to take on the heavy sin, of being a part in Eline's death, and bringing down Bjorn, by allowing Lady Aashild to bring him into covering this all up, just to save Erlend's skin:
pg. 211 Bjorn says, "And you think that, whether or no, 'tis all over with me?" he said slowly. "Or think you there is so much left of the man I once was that I dare be forsworn to save that boy there from going down to ruin? I that was dragged down myself__all those years ago. Dragged down, I say," he repeated"
"Every word you have heard is true," said Kristin. "We threatened her til she did it."
Well this sure does not give much hope for an ending of.....And they lived happily ever after.
-
For some reason I was just able to see Stella's post. Very interesting.
Stella, I can't find it in myself to like this character, as my Dad used to say "Handsome is as handsome does"!
I'm pretty sure that is the message Lavrans was trying to convey to Kristin in his own fatherly words. I fear her youth, and being smitten by this handsome cunning older man, is clouding her good judgement
I can not find myself liking Erlend either.
I like how you point out the differences in Kristin"s and Erlend's oaths to each other. She commits herself to him completely, he....not so much. As you pointed out he says, "in keeping with the law" before any other woman comes into his arms. Hmmm....before any other woman comes into his arms. Well, we all know how quickly he let Kristin come into his arms. His word is worth little, in my opinion.
-
We only have 48 pages left of The Bridal Wreath. The book I got from the library has all three books in it. Does anyone else have the trilogy, and if so, is anyone considering discussing the other two books? I would love to, if anyone else is up for it. There is no way I will be satisfied ending at this book, not knowing what happens beyond The Bridal Wreath. We seem to be reading this at a pretty fast pace, so I think we could knock off the other two books quite quickly. I am going to go on reading the other two books regardless. Think about it, and let me know what you all decide.
PatH., Safe travels!
-
Bellamarie, you bring up so many good points it's hard to know where to start.
Kristin has seen the red flags, it is not so much her love for Erlend, as it is her selfish stubborn pride, that causes her to refuse to see Erlend's wrongs.
I think we're going to conclude that willful stubbornness is Kristin's big flaw. However, I think she does see his wrongs, but rationalizes them.
It's hard to figure out the true story of Erlend and Eline, since they're both liars. She tells Kristin she was a maid when Erlend had her, but Erlend says "She's said that so often that she believes it herself. Do you remember when you made me go to Sigurd with that lie, Eline, and he produced witnesses that he had caught you with another man?"
It does say somewhere that Eline is older than Erlend. Anyway, she would have to be, since she had been married for seven years when she seduced the eighteen year old boy.
-
Are we going to continue with the other two books? That's up to all of you. I thought I'd take a vote when we're almost done with the next section. There are three possibilities: we can continue an in-depth discussion of the sort we've been doing, we can be less formal, but still meet here to talk about it, or we can go our separate ways and gobble up the rest of the books on our own.
If we continue here, I think maybe we should go even faster than we have been, but that's up to you. It's tricky setting speeds, because some people are slower readers or busier than others, and you have to set an average that doesn't make the fast ones impatient or make it hard for the busy ones to catch up.
-
I guess we just can't believe anything that comes for either Erlend or Eline's mouth. They both say what best suits their own selfish purposes, and be damned with who gets in their way.
I agree, if we go on with the other two books, we could go at a faster pace. We can always ask if everyone is ready to go on, as we have this book. A less formal format sounds good to me.
-
Like Bellamarie I can't see us ending with The Wreath. I'm willing to go on. I think we can read faster. It's easy reading and certainly easy to get caught up in the story. Should we finish up with this book?
-
OK I am thinking we can read to like or not like various characters as they do or do not match our values of right and wrong - However, I am struggling to think that an author writing before WWII writes a story just to shock us. Yes, after WWII we were so numbed and shocked by the unimaginable that literature became a vehicle to shock. Or, that a writer before WWII would turn the main character into a selfish person without it making some meaning in the story - I am having a difficult time seeing these characters as good or bad using our own value system when we know in Norway Kristin is idolized with a statue to this fictional character.
And so I am thinking there is a pattern here that is up to us, the reader to deduce - there is something about the behavior of these main characters that represent either a cultural value system or a cultural war or maybe even as a Norwegian, their behavior would be ringing as characteristics of early Norwegian cultural Icons and we are at a disadvantage not intimately knowing these Iconic personalities.
For instance - St. Olaf, was King of Norway from 1015 to 1028 - he was canonized as a Saint a year after his death - even though in Norway it seems his name is on every other building etc. because St. Olaf, like our George Washington, St. Olaf is the symbol of Norway's national independence and pride. By today's standards he would be considered as brutal and violent as ISIS and his sexual preference is even worse than those in our story since St. Olaf, made a saint by the Pope, married his illegitimate daughter and the half-sister of his former fiancée.
Do you understand he married his own daughter that he had as a result of relations with the mother of his fiancée because his wife is her half sister. This is the man who is the national icon representing independence and pride for Norway to this day. No George Washington who the legend said that he would not lie after cutting down his father's favorite cherry tree. George Washington was a general but not like General Qasem Soleimani of ISIS much less Saint Olaf (I just find his sainthood ironic so do not mind me) anyhow back to George versus Olaf - George had slaves but was married to one women Martha and he, with all his heroic behavior never became a saint but stands for our ideals that we value.
I think all of us here in this discussion have very strong moral values that contribute mightily to our ability to love others, be kind, be responsible to our family, community and nation and it is a joy to realize I am reading with a group of people that have such strong loving values - however, we are reading literature that is not matching our values and I think we need to read this book at arms length to get what the author is bringing to us -
If what Kristin is doing with her life in this story is offensive, we will learn that as we read and if it is not brought out as offensive than it has a meaning that is going over our heads - so far, like all of you, I have read too many books that the story went over my head forcing me to dig in and learn more about the culture and time in history - this story may have been written before WWII and in the twentieth century but it is supposed to be a well researched book about the Middle Ages in Norway - this author has written so many more books than I imagined and she is known to have one of the best backgrounds about the Middle Ages in Norway - so much so she was awarded the Nobel Prize. Also, we have scholars researching not just to bring out the sins and faults of Saint Olaf but to find what he did bring to the people that they see in him the soul of Norway.
And so, I am thinking we can be astonished and see the differences between our moral values and what we are reading - where as I think to get the most from this book we need to dig in and see how the behavior of these characters still play out today or deduce what the behavior could represent much as we see the behavior of war in war novels, not just as the brutal violence it is but as the over arching meaning of conflict, the use of and mis-use of power and the feeling of 'right' by conquest or culture or religion.
-
I'm a newcomer, but have to say I'm game to read and discuss the rest of the trilogy. I'm reading it anyway; I couldn't just leave these characters at the nadir of their story and am sure there is a gleam of hope for them in some fashion.
I remember reading that the author was a couple years away from her controversial conversion to Catholicism when she wrote this and wonder if threads of that process might be found in the story....
-
Yes, Barb, in addition to our own values, we have to consider both the values of 1920s Norway, when the book was written, and those of 14th century Norway, plus trying to appreciate what Undset herself is saying. Also, Kristin is now only 17, and the book is going to cover pretty much her whole life. We can presume that many of the characters will evolve or change in that time.
We've learned something of the values of Kristin's time. Women of her class were expected to be virgins at marriage, and faithful thereafter. Married men were expected to be faithful too, though I think not as much as women. Adultery was extremely disapproved of. For instance, Erlend can't possibly make his children by Eline his heirs, though he could have done so if they were merely illegitimate. What's harder to know is how strictly these values were held.
-
I don't feel Kristin is indifferent to the pain she is causing her parents. Far from it--she is very unhappy that she's doing so, but she feels she has to stick to her guns. Why? Because this is the only way she can take charge of her own life? Because she is driven by her blind passion for Erlend?
I found the end of chapter 4 very touching. At the end of a conversation with her father, Kristin realizes she has worn her father down, and he will no longer oppose her. That night, he wakes her up to show her the breaking of the long freeze--the singing of the wind, the warm rain, the rumbling snow sliding away.
"Kristin reached for her father's hand and held it. He had called her and wanted to show her this. It was the kind of thing he would have done in the past, before things changed between them. And now he was doing it again."
-
Barb, I hadn't realized how bad Saint Olaf had been. He was a Viking, and Vikings were considered exceptionally brutal by others, even in that very brutal age; certainly totally beyond the pale by our standards. But even then, his sexual behavior was waaay out of bounds.
-
StellaMaris, you posted while I was writing.
I remember reading that the author was a couple years away from her controversial conversion to Catholicism when she wrote this and wonder if threads of that process might be found in the story....
Good thought. Let's look for that.
-
StellaMaris so glad you are sticking with us for this read - it is one of the more difficult that we have tackled in awhile with so much to swallow-
Pat ah yes, such a sweet bit of language to let us see the father's observation of beauty in nature and in his daughter.
To your earlier post - what I read it is not so much a moral issue about adultery as much as it is about passing on the family wealth and more, the purity of blood lines - especially among those families considered leaders of a community or the nation - the purity of blood line is still a huge factor among the tribes in the Middle East to this day where as most western nations were only keeping their royals marrying within and even that has gone by the boards among the royals in England, Denmark, Monaco, and the Netherlands introducing 'commoners' into the family.
I think earlier we found something that explained how one of England's earlier kings had two children that were excluded from wearing the crown upon his death because they were conceived before the legal betrothal to his queen.
From what I have read so far, we too easily mix love and sex with marriage where as they were very separate and more often sex was a duty for both men and women in a marriage that appears to be more about the distribution of wealth.
Hard to wrap your head around - I have a book someplace about courtly love that I need to pull out. Not sure if courtly love was part of the culture in earlier Norwegian history as it was in France and Italy and to some extent in England but what I do remember reading it was about young men falling in love with older married ladies and only married ladies were recipients of love - part of the expression of love was a young man being so bowled over he would noticeably, as a badge of honor, starve himself in addition to writing poetry and music.
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
April/May Book Club Online
Kristin Lavransdatter
by Sigrid Undset
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kirsten_lavransdatter/Bjolstad.jpg) |
This Nobel prize-winning book is the tumultuous story of the daughter of a 14th century Norwegian nobleman-farmer.
I loved it when I first read it decades ago, and now there’s a new translation which makes it even better.
Schedule: April 21-25 Jørundgaard, Chapters 1-4
April 26-30 Jørundgaard, Chapters 5-7
May 1 or 2-4, The Wreath, Chapters 1-3
May 5-9, The Wreath, Chapters 4-8
May 10-13, Lavrans Bjørgulfsøn, Chapters 1-4
May 13-?, Lavrans Bjørgulfsøn, Chapters 5-8
Questions:
Jorundgaard
Chapters 5-7:
How much control did young people have over who they married?
Why can't Kristin and Arne even think of marrying?
Kristin doesn't much want to marry Simon. Why didn't she ask her father to release her from the betrothal?
After her encounter with Bentein, Kristin made some mistakes that made her more vulnerable to gossip. Should she have avoided these?
What do you think of Simon?
In the fuss over Arne's death, Simon behaves very capably and sensibly. Why does his calmness make Kristin like him less?
The Wreath:
Chapters 1-3
Kristin seems to fall for Erlend instantly and completely. Does this this seem realistic? Does Erlend feel the same way?
What is Erlend like? Can you like or approve of him?
What is the oath the two swear to each other after the dance? Is it binding?
|
|
Discussion Leader: PatH
Can someone help me understand the back story to Åashild Gautesdatter ? If I understand it correctly, she had been married to Baard Munanson, but is now married to Borg (?). There seems to be some suspicion around the death of her first husband, possibly poison? [she is acquainted with plants and medicines]. And as Erlend's aunt, she seems to be advocating for the couple to come together, even helping them along after the death of Eline; it is through her that Kristin originally heard of Erlend.
Could she be a symbol of the wild/ pagan/pre-Christian world that lurks at the edges of society in this story? That part that urges Kristin on to actions that seem driven by the irrational and emotional?
-
StellaMaris I think you are on to something - I want to go back and look at the early exchange between Kristin as a young girls with Åashild - as I recall Kristin took to her.
-
PatH.,
I found the end of chapter 4 very touching. At the end of a conversation with her father, Kristin realizes she has worn her father down, and he will no longer oppose her. That night, he wakes her up to show her the breaking of the long freeze--the singing of the wind, the warm rain, the rumbling snow sliding away.
"Kristin reached for her father's hand and held it. He had called her and wanted to show her this. It was the kind of thing he would have done in the past, before things changed between them. And now he was doing it again."
I too found this bittersweet. But, did Kristin wear him down, or did the loss of his younger daughter cause him to yearn to be close once again to Kristin. It breaks my heart that she kept her love from her parents, and from her own self throughout this time. It's sad she is denying herself of happiness, in thinking Erlend is her only path to happiness.
Each of us will read this story, and take from it what we individually feel and see, from a standpoint of our own upbringing, relationships with our parents, values, and teachings of our faith. I don't feel this book has gone over my head, I think in fact it is a very simple deduction of choices in life. I think with Christian faith being of importance, it shows how God has given us all the free will to choose for ourselves, good or bad, we have that free will. Kristin is exercising her free will, and in so doing, is reaping and suffering from her own choices. People have died at the hands of Erlend and Kristin's actions. The fact they must live with this, can seem to be living in a state of hell. I do believe for Kristin, her faith and the church is important to her, and I do feel that in time, something will happen to cause her to turn back to God, and to realize her choices are hurting not only herself, but so many others. It may very well take Kristin finally getting to live with Erlend, to bring her to this epiphany. Now don't get me wrong, I don't see anything simple in the lives they are living due to their choices. It's like the old adage, "You are jumping from the frying pan into the fire", or "You can't see the forest for the trees." And one more, "You reap what you sow."
I have taught the Catholic religion for over twenty years, I have been versed in Bible study for years, by the best theologians, depicting behaviors of those in the Old and New Testament, and what we see as human nature vs God's will, and this story rings of a struggle with personal will and wants, in contradiction to following God's will and laws. Nothing shows Kristin and Erlend belong together, other than their own self serving desires and wants. Every thing has and continues to go against this union. They are not only breaking man made laws, but are also breaking God's laws. It has happened throughout time....go back into the early Bible, Adam and Eve eating from the tree of life, denying God, for their own temptations and pleasure. The New testament, you have Judas betraying Jesus, for his own greed. It really does not matter the place and time, it has been happening throughout all ages.
I think Undset is doing a marvelous job in telling this story about the complicated choices we are faced with in life, and how our actions will not only affect ourselves, but others. I am not finding so much as it is "offensive," as it is frustrating for me to see how they continue on the path of destruction. It reminds me of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19, where Lot's wife neglected to fully obey God’s warning, to not look back. We also have other verses I see that fit this behavior of Kristin and Erlend, and how they are destroying their relationship with God and family, for their own desires, and must one day atone for their sins and turn back to God.
Ephesians 4:22-24 tells us to take off the old self that is ruled by sin and be renewed, putting on the new self that is in the likeness of God.
1 John 5:16 says that willful, deliberate sin can lead to death. Lot’s wife wasn't able to accept that. What she chose to value in her heart led her to sin, which led to her death.
I see a death in Kristin with the pain she is in, and the pain she sees she is causing for others, not to mention the fact she is living with knowing others have died in regards to her choices and actions. I don't think she is indifferent to what she is causing for others, but I do believe she is now at a point that turning away from Erlend would be impossible, since so much death and hurt has become of this.
pg. 214 "Kristin," begged the lady fearfully, "surely you would not give up Erlend now? You cannot be saved now except you save each other." "So would a priest scarce counsel," said Kristin, smiling coldly. "But well I know that never can I give up Erlend now__not if I should tread my own father underfoot."
Kristin sees no way out of this, but knows she will have to atone for her sins one day:
"Moster Aashild__are you never afraid of the day when you must stand before God's judgement?"
As for the statue, and why it was erected, I found this site............. Warning.... I only looked at the statue and the words written about it. Anything else on the page could be spoilers
(https://inpossibility.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/35627-klavransdatter.jpg?w=213)
The image at the top is (from what I could find) of a statue of Kristin Lavransdatter that was erected in Norway in honor of the character and of Undset’s immense achievement in writing the book. Undset received the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1928 for Kristin Lavransdatter.
I personally am going to hope that this statue of Kristin is a semblance of her finding her way back to her faith and God. I know as a Christian, our statues are to be reminders of the works, and strong faith those had during their lives.
-
Stella, we were posting at the same time. Yes, indeed I do believe Lady Aashild, is misguiding Kristin to be with Erlend, and there is also some early suspicions that Lady Aashild, also has some kind of secret with Ragnifeld, Kristin's mother, before she married Lavrans. Ragnfeld called Lady Aashild in to use her witchcraft on the baby when it fell and it's back was injured, after she felt the priest was of no use. Also remember, they did not see any improvement in the child from Lady Aashild's visit So, seems she has no more powers with her herbs and potions, than the priest does with his holy water and prayers. God's will, is God's will as the priest tries to tell Ragnfeld.
Lady Aashild does seem to defy God with arrogance. In my post above, Kristin is asking her about having to stand before God one day, and Lady Aashild's reply is:
pg. 214 "It may be I shall find courage to ask, Him that hath made me as I am, if He will have mercy on me in His own good time. For I have never begged for His mercy when I broke His commands. And never have I begged God or man to forgive me a farthing of the piece I have paid here in this mountain hut."
She says, "Him that hath made me as I am" Does she feel God has some sort of responsibility for her being a sinner, or a witch person?
Notice how Lady Aashild, was the first to mention to Kristin about being with Erlend very early in the first chapters of the book, she also helps Erlend with his plan to sneak Kristin away from her parents, she decides to cover up the entire way Eline died, she drags her own husband in on it, and if that is not enough, when she thinks Kristin is wavering she says to her, "Kristin," begged the lady fearfully, "surely you would not give up Erlend now? You cannot be saved now except you save each other."
How does this even make any sense? Why must Kristin believe in order to save herself, she must also save Erlend? Kristin is only accountable for her own actions, and sins. She can only mend her relationship with God through her own self.
Lady Aashild seems more concerned for Erlend here than Kristin.
-
Stella, i also see Fru Aashild as a representation of Undset's own spiritual journey. Her parents were atheists, she an agnostic until converting to Catholicism later in her life. Fru Aashild is an interesting character partly rooted in the world of magic, questioning God and celebrating Holy Dsys.
-
Fru Aashild married Baard Munansøn, the younger brother of Erlend's father. Munan Baardson, Erlend's disreputable companion, is her son, hence Erlend's cousin. Baard died under circumstances his relatives found suspicious, and Aashild left the country and married Bjørn without family consent. The family tried to annul the marriage, claiming she had slept with Bjørn while her husband was still alive, and had poisoned her husband. Nothing could be proved, but in the process they managed to strip Aashild of her money and possessions, which is why she is now poor.
Aashild's medicines couldn't cure Ulvhild, but some folk medicines work. She knew how to ease Ulvhild's pain, and I'm sure she knew some poisons. Plant poisons are pretty common.
StellaMaris:Could she be a symbol of the wild/ pagan/pre-Christian world that lurks at the edges of society in this story? That part that urges Kristin on to actions that seem driven by the irrational and emotional?
She certainly could, and I'm sure you're right.
-
Should we finish up with this book?
Yes, let's do that. Chapters 5-8. We can finish up anything we have to say about this part tomorrow while we're reading.
-
Not having read this book it could be that the story is one of a spiritual journey for Kristin - certainly so far we see her making a place for herself as an independent women not bound by current tradition - I'm seeing this century for Norway as possibly a bridge time between the old religion and the new governess of Christianity - and even Christianity appeared to be at odds with itself since learning of Bishop Jon who saw a more Norwegian version of the church from Rome - so far we have not heard of the old gods, Thor and the tree, forgot what it was called - but did find this interesting bit...
Archaeologists unearth ‘unparalleled’ pre-Christian temple in Norway, March 16, 2012
http://freethoughtnation.com/ancient-unparalleled-pre-christian-temple-discovered-in-norway/
And here is a web site that goes into some of the explanation for Pre-Christian religion in Norway - forgot about the Sami but they are still an important mission for the Cathedral in Trondheim according to Britt-Arnhild Wigum Lindland who works at the Cathedral and does missionary work with the Sami
http://brittarnhildshouseinthewoods.typepad.com/brittarnhilds_house_in_th/sami/
http://christianization.hist.cam.ac.uk/regions/norway/norway-pagan-non-christ.html
-
PatH.,
Nothing could be proved, but in the process they managed to strip Aashild of her money and possessions, which is why she is now poor.
This would help me understand why Lady Aashild has so much disdain toward God. She could be blaming Him, for her ruined life, after all she brags of never asking Him for mercy while breaking His commands,
So, I personally have come to a realization, that Lady Aashild is, a worshiper of pagan Gods, such as witchcraft, potions etc, and she seems to have a bit of a disdain for God our Almighty, thinking she can cure the sick, heal the lame. That's giving herself supreme power. I am coming to a conclusion, this is a war of good vs evil.
If you remember the elf like person, who scared Kristin in the early chapters, there was concern for her safety. Kristin confides this to Lady Aashild. Scripture tells us to be on guard of the devil coming in sheep's clothing. Lady Aashild, befriended Kristin early on, and planted the seed of being a perfect match with Erlend. I have to ask myself is Lady Aashild using Kristin not only to keep her from her faith, but could the secret she has with Ragnfield also have something to do with Lady Aashild, ruining Kristin's life?
Eph 6:11-12 …11 Put on the full armor of God, that you may be able to stand firm against the
schemes of the devil.
Lady Aashild is representing Lucifer the tempter, and Kristin is representing the goodness of God. As in the book of Genesis, we know who shall win out, in this battle. I can hope the statue of Kristin, is a representation, of the goodness of God winning out. It would surely make sense in Undset winning a Noble Prize for this book.
Since Kristin, is a fictional character, she could not be canonized a saint as Saul/Paul was, but she could be erected a statue. I mean Saul was going against God with a mighty force, until he got knocked off his high horse. What will bring Kristin to her transformation?
I'm excited to read the next chapters....be back tomorrow.
-
StellaMaris, you will notice that there is now a heading inserted in your post at the top of the page. When I'm not quick enough to be the first poster on a page (post numbers divisible by 40) I'm allowed to insert the heading like that. I'm not allowed to change your post in any other way, so don't worry that I will mess with your words.
-
In talking about the significance of Fru Aashild, don't forget that she resembles the elf maiden who tried to lure Kristin with a wreath of golden flowers when she was seven.
-
I read too fast to catch what is turning out to be important - I went back and am really reading from just before Kristin meets Arne Gyrdsson as he is leaving town and all through that chapter and the next you can see how Simon takes over. Yes, after the hysteria at Arne's wake he comforts Kristin but it is him that talks for her even to her mother and enthusiastically gets behind her going to the convent as in his opinion it's in her best interest in order to "fix her" by socially educating her. He never imagines it would be a worldly knight she would meet but only thought of the other women she would meet - so I can see how Kristin would feel like she would only be an appendage to him for the remaining years of her life - plus, we know, as smart as Simon is presented he is not as wise as he thought and had not thought through all sides of Kristin going to the nunnery.
We know that Norway values its independence and pride if for no other reason we know this because of those they elevate to national figures and so Kristin not only wants her independence but to feel pride in herself as someone who risks that adventure.
Regardless the reputation for marauding, which among archaeologists is now in question, the Vikings sailed further around the world long before there was any comfort that the world was round and they made their home in a harsh cold climate doing it their way and they adapted the church to what they saw as practical and important - all headstrong risk taking and so I can see Kristin as a character foreshadowing the spirit of Norway caught between the old ways and the new Christian ways.
She could not even morn the loss of her dearest friend without the uproar and personal confusion of what happened walking home from meeting Arne and at the wake, so she is caught in a whirlwind of unsettled feelings never truly having mourned the death of Arne. Because of the surrounding circumstances I would imagine based on my own experiences you then cannot let yourself take care of the sadness and emptiness as part of mourning because, it only brings up in your mind the uncomfortable, out of control feelings that now even those feelings are being hijacked and explained away by Simon. There are not many ways for a young woman to make her mark and she did not come out of all this as a Joan of Arc fighting for what she believed because even that is not clear to her - so she rebels little by little.
Then in these pages nothing good is said about the church, it's priests and monks except a few particular ones here and there - so to Kristin she is not hearing that revering the church and its representatives is how it is done - Christianity is still being sorted out in Norway - Europe for several hundred years had been incorporated into the Holy Roman Empire including half of Britain where as, Norway, Ireland, and northern England does not share that experience. Not only their independent nature but, the great physical distance from even the Kings who are Kings by virtue of the Pope having crowned them, is not the Norwegian experience.
And so how does a young women have a piece of herself and control over her life. She finds others taking control over her feelings and her sexuality and if she lives life as she prefers with full agency over her life, the only alternative allowed to women at this time in history is the private moments of motherhood or becoming a nun or an outcaste like Lady Aashild - this is not breaking the glass ceiling this is as we remember before the woman's movement in the 70s when we even thought to be a 'good' women we should be committed to home, hearth and making our men happy. Yep, I can see why Kristin is rebelling and following the call her body is making in an adventure with great risk in keeping with the adventurous spirit of a Viking.
Have to start the current pages I've been so busy re-reading. I thought I would make a chart to attempt making connections with the names and then got too caught up again in the story - ah so - does anyone know if there is such a chart online - my quick look has not uncovered one.
-
Before we leave these pages, I was struck in this section how the author gives us at least a moment to see into and sympathize with so many of the characters.
Eline, although her plan to poison Erland and herself shows what a disturbed hysterical person she is, we see things from her view as she talks to Kristen and tells her that in ten years he will marry you off to one of his servants. Borg, crying out grief for his past.
And Lavrens! Anyone who has a child must hurt for him. Can't you feel the love and companionship he's had with his daughter all these years, in a marriage that hasn't given him much. He's between a rock and a hard place. he Knows that Erland will bring Kristen pain, yet if he denies her, how much pain will that bring? What would you have done?
And his wife, so locked in a past we don't understand. She knows her love and feelings are not important in this situation, and accepts it. How sad.
I think we wont understand these parents until we know more about their past.
-
PatH In talking about the significance of Fru Aashild, don't forget that she resembles the elf maiden who tried to lure Kristin with a wreath of golden flowers when she was seven.
For me that only strengthens the idea of a spiritual journey, that tugging back and forth from one world to the other.
Barb I think you hit the nail on the head with your analysis.
-
Barb, I wish there were such a chart. The only one I found had about 6 names on it and wasn't much use. I was going to make one too, but it's a lot of work.
The Vikings were amazing sailors, especially given the crude navigation tools available to them. Once they had accidentally found North America, they could get back to it using directions that amounted to something like "Go to where a lot of whales are spouting, turn left and sail for three days".
-
Well, JoanK., we indeed learn much about Lavrans and Regnfrid in these next chapters. It seems history is somewhat repeating itself with Kristin and her mother both being pregnant and keeping it a secret when they got married. The only difference is Ragnfrid's baby was not Lavrans.
Why did it not surprise me that Erlend forced himself on to Kristin before they were married, when he came for a visit in the Spring. I seriously do not like this man.
As I suspected, Kristin is not going to know true happiness, because it comes at too high a cost. It won't take Erlend long to stray, once he gets his way, has her for his wife, and sees their past will remain in the way of their happiness. This will become tiresome to him real quickly. He can own her body, but he will never own her soul.
These chapters also confirm my suspicions of Lady Aashild being the elf person in the early chapter, where Kristin looked into the pond. Lady Aashild is not really intending friendship to Kristin. Devil in sheep's clothes for sure.
pg.255 "Look now at yourself in the water, Kristin," said Lady Aashild, and Kristin bent over the tub. She caught a glimpse of her own face rising up white through the water; it came so near that she saw the golden crown above it. Round about, many shadows, bright and dark, were stirring in the mirror__there was somewhat she was on the brink of remembering__then 'twas as though she was swooning away__she caught at the rim of the tub before her. At that moment Lady Aashild laid her hand on hers, and drove her nails so hard into the flesh, that Kristin came to herself with the pain.
Oh dear Kristin, what have you gotten yourself into? :o :o :o
-
JoanK, ..."he knows that Erland will bring Kristen pain, yet if he denies her, how much pain will that bring? What would you have done?"
I have a 8 1/2 year old son and can't even begin to imagine the agony of watching him fall for a female version of Erland!
That said, it's stated often enough in this story that people around Lavrans think he is too "soft" on his wife and his children. I imagine a different father in those times might have shipped Kristin off to a convent out of the country or to a distant relative's estate, perhaps having a heart to heart with Erlend at the pointy end of a sword. Maybe because Lavrans knows well enough how it is to be in a less than spectacular marriage, he sympathizes with Kristin wanting to marry someone for whom she has a passion: " it could have happened to him too, he could have loved someone too."
Barb There is a list here if it helps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristin_Lavransdatter#Characters_in_Kristin_Lavransdatter
Also a chart here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristin_Lavransdatter#/media/File:KristinLavransdatter_FictionalCharacters.jpg
-
Oh wow - thank you, thank you StellaMaris - just perfect
OK for any of you that have Amazon Prime and access the free movies on Prime Instant Video there is a move of Max Von Sydow talking the story with artist drawings illustrating East of the Sun and West of the Moon. Interesting that you can get bits and glimmers of Untsed's Kristin from this fairytale - If we use typical literary symbolism that a marriage is symbolic for the joining of your natural self with your spirit then I could even see the Northwind as representing Erland assuming that out of all this Kristin connects with her true self.
Anyhow here is the story on Amazon Prime Instant Video told in a half an hour
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009ND20N0/ref=dv_web_wtls_list_pr_1_ba
-
StellaMaris, those are great links. Thank you. Of course, if you work your way down in the genealogy, you can figure out some things that are going to happen. I was interested to find out that Munan Baardson is a historical character. I wonder if he did anything in real life except appropriate his mother's fortune, sleep around, and make vulgar cracks.
-
Stella, Thank you for the list.
Stella, "he sympathizes with Kristin wanting to marry someone for whom she has a passion."[/i]
He does state after the marriage:
pg 266 "Ay, ay__maid or woman, at least she is come to the bride-bed with the man she loves. And 'twas not so with either you or me, my poor Ragnfrid."
But....Lavrans is feeling this way because he feels he and Ragnfrid were not able to have those feelings on their wedding night. He has lived his entire life with Ragnfrid, not giving himself entirely to her heart and soul. Yet, Kristin and Ragnfrid have lived a lie, hiding from him truths of what they have done. He has felt bad for not being able to give Ragnfrid his heart, even though he has been the best husband and father possible in all other ways, all the while she has kept her secret of being pregnant by another man, when she married Lavrans, just as Kristin has kept her secret of being pregnant before marriage.
He knows in his heart Erlend is not worthy of his daughter, he knows she has had sex with him outside of marriage, by her looking up at Erlend on the bridal bed. Lavrans is heartbroken he could not save her from this horrible creature. The last pages of this book tells how overwrought he is about her being married to Erlend.
These words Lavrans expresses just tore my heart out.
pg. 264 "Oh, never, never, never should I have given her to that man! God help me__I must have known it all the time__he had broken down her youth and her fairest honour, I believed it not__nay, could I believe the like of Kristin?__but still I knew it. And yet is she too good for this weakling boy, that hath made waste of himself and her__had he lured her astray ten times over, I should never have given her up to him, that he may spill yet more of her life and her happiness."
"See you not __he has her now wholly in his power__he that have never been man enough to rule himself..."Twill go hard with her before she finds courage to set herself against aught her husband wills__and should she one day be forced to ti, "twill be bitter grief to her__my own gentle child__
"...Now am I come so far I scarce can understand why God hath laid so many and such heavy sorrows upon me__for I have striven faithfully to do His will. Why hath He taken our children from us, Ragnfrid, one by one__first our sons__then little Ulvhild__and now have I given her that I loved dearest, honourless, to an untrusty and witless man. Now is there none left to us but the little one__and unwise must I deem it to take joy in her, before I see how it will go with her__with Ramborg."
Then in his conversation with Ragnfrid, as if he is not hurting enough, she finally admits to him she was pregnant by another man, and that Lavrans was such a young boy, and she much older, forced into the marriage.
Haven't we all at one point or another felt what Lavrans expresses about doing God's will, yet bad things happen, and we just question why, and what next? Yet, we see others taking as they want, like Erlend, committing sin after sin, yet come away not only being absolved, but winning Kristin, and all the wealth. Well, I fear his happiness is going to be short lived, and not that you wish bad on people like him, but you just know he is headed for a crash.
I don't fault Lavrans for not being more strong, with Kristin, although Stella, I like how you think, sending her off to a convent far, far away, and dealing with Erlend with a sword does sound good to me, at this point.
-
Lavrans was ready to deal with Erlend with a sword a couple of times.
Well, a lot has happened in this section. Kristin and Erlend have finally been able to marry, just in the nick of time, and we learn what's been eating at Ragnfrid all these years. Ragnfrid has been married to a good man who doesn't love her, and her daughter has now married the man she loves, and who loves her, but he's definitely not a good man, and poor husband material. Ironic contrast.
Ragnfrid wasn’t necessarily pregnant when she married Lavrans. He asks her whose child it was, and she answers she doesn’t know. Can you imagine her anguish, when her newborn son, beloved whoever the father is, is dying and she doesn’t dare pray for him to live?
-
PatH., Yes, you are correct, Ragnfrid says she did not know who the baby belonged to. But I guess what was enlightening, is her confessing she was not a virgin when she married Lavrans, something he was not aware of.
We learned a lot in these chapters, but what we still don't know, is what exactly does Lady Ashild have to do with Ragnfrid's past, and what does she intend to do with Kristin's future? It is obvious she does not have anything good in mind from the way she nearly crushed Kristin's hand.
-
Two very minor but interesting bits:
Munan Baardsøn's take on St Olaf's early life, said when he is trying to convince Lavrans that Erlend's impure past is no bar to marriage.
"my dear Lavrans, it's true that pure living is an admirable thing, but it's hardly within the powers of a grown man unless he is particularly blessed by God. By Saint Olav--you should keep in mind that the holy king himself was not given that blessing until the end of his life on earth. It was evidently God's will that he should first produce the capable boy-king Magnus, who repelled the heathens' invasion of the north, King Olav did not have that son by his queen, and yet he sits among the highest of saints in Heaven."
Pagan sacrifices. In chapter 5, it's described how, during the dreadful winter, some people went into the mountains and sacrificed animals in the way described in Barb's archaeological link. Sira Eirik and some of the men went and smashed the indecent altar stones, which were bloody and surrounded by bones.
-
What I found really irritating, is when Sir Baard was trying to convince Lavrans to agree to the wedding he said:
" 'Tis plain to me, Lavrans Bjorgulfson, that what goes against my cousin most with you, is that he has had these hapless dealings with Sigurd Saksulvson's wife. And true it is that 'twas not well done of him. But in God's name. man, you must remember this__here was this young boy dwelling in one house with a young and fair woman, and she had an old, cold, strengthless husband__and the night is a half-year long up there: methinks a man could scarce look for aught else to happen, unless Erlend had been a very saint. There is not denying it: Erlend, had made at all time but a sorry monk; but methinks your young, fair daughter would give you little thanks, should you give her a monkish husband. True it is that Erlend bore himself like a fool then, and yet greater fool since...But the thing should not stand against him for ever__we his kinsmen have striven to help the boy to his feet again; the woman is dead; and Erlend has done all in his power to care for her body, and her soul; the Bishop of Oslo himself hath absolved him of his sin, and now is he come home again made clean by the Holy Blood at Schwerin__would you be stricter than the Bishop of Oslo, and the Archbishop at Schwerin__or whoever it may be that hath charge of that precious blood...?"
What is not known at the time of this absolution Baard speaks of for Erlend, is I can bet Erlend did not confess just exactly how Eline died, and what hand he had in her death, and the lies to have her burial. So here he is even being untruthful to the Bishops.
Lavrans knows Erlend is not true on his word and he tests him at the table when he confronts him on not bringing back his cart. Erlend doesn't even remember he did not return the cart to Lavrans. Lavrans makes the point to him, that when you give your word and someone helps you out, then you should honor it. That went over Erlend head altogether. This truly shows how Erlend feels entitled. He has not only duped Kristin, but he has duped those close to him and even the Bishops. Nothing good can come of all his lies.
Also, Baard tells us that Erlend and Eline were both young. So Erlend saying she was older, and seduced him is not true.
-
BELLAMARIE: "This truly shows how Erlend feels entitled"
"Entitled" is the perfect word for Erland. the universe owes him whatever he wants, and if he is asked to pay for it, he shrugs it off or is angry.
Already, he is forcing Kristen to have sex when she doesn't want to. And already, she is beginning to resent him.
-
Yes, Bellamarie and JoanK, you've got Erlend's number all right. And he's totally uninterested in taking trouble over something that isn't important to him at the moment, like the wagon, no matter how important it is to somebody else. Not promising husband material.
Eline really must have been at least 5 years older than Erlend, though, and probably more, because she had been married to Sigurd for seven years when she and Erlend started the affair, and Erlend was only 18. It's impossible to know for sure who was the seducer, but even if it was Eline, I bet she didn't have to work very hard at it.
-
Did you notice this in Munan Baardsøn's speech:
"Do you intend to be harsher than the Bishop of Oslo and the archbishop or whoever it is down there who presides over the precious blood?"
Munan is really indifferent to religious matters. That's a hugely sacred relic, and he doesn't know anything about it.
-
But bear in mind, the Bishop or Archbishop I am certain, had NO knowledge of Erlend's hand in Eline's death, that Eline was pregnant, and that he had seduced Kristin, and brought her to a brothel to have sex with her. I would bet the only thing they felt they were absolving him from was his behavior with Eline, when she was married to Sigurd.
Back then young girls were handed over to men at the early ages of 12 yrs old, so if she was with Sigurd for seven years she could indeed be just a year or so different than Erlend. Baardson did not give any indication Eline seduced Erlend, just that it would have been expected to happen with two young people in the house, and he mentions, Erlend would have had to have been a saint not to have sex with her.
Yes, JoanK., Erlend has already shown Kristin he will take what he wants, when he wants it. And when he tires of it, as Eline said, he will go on to another. Kristin was a means to an end with Erlend. Having her was like a conquest, he got good with the king, got absolved, got wealth, and showed Lavrans he could take his daughter from him. I still feel Lady Aashild had something to do with Erlend going to the convent to meet up with Kristin, and to seduce her. We have not heard the last of why Lady Aashild has it out for Kristin, and what she has to do with Ragnfrid's past.
PatH., Good point, Munan Baardson has no use for religion. He almost sees it as a mockery. I mean after all, he sees Erlend being absolved, knowing what all he has done, and is still getting away with. He is probably sitting back laughing at everyone.
-
Ha! Munan and Erlend do indeed make two peas in a pod. They are both flippant and looking out for number one. I suspect they are both the sort of men who will bring trouble upon themselves and yet somehow manage to remain unsinkable, going their self-involved way. They both appear to see the sacrament of confession only in legalistic terms.
There is a truth, however, in Munan's words when he points out that Lavrans is being too scrupulous when he charges him as being "stricter than the Bishop of Oslo." Whatever we know about the thoroughness of Erlend's confession, it is fair for Munan to point out that we must think the best of him at this point.
PatH This occasional mention of the pagan element seems to lurk about the story like the sight of wolves in the forest. It serves as a reminder that this society is not yet entirely Christianised and points out the larger truth that "Satan ever prowls about the world seeking the ruin of souls"--including those in this story.
-
Interesting - something about this quote from Anthony Bourdain, the famous chef, who is visiting Austin this week - anyhow this interview remark reminds me some of what I would expect to come out of the mouth of Erlend and maybe even Munan and maybe even out of the mouth of Kristin. All headstrong people who have to do things their way.
You’ve had some pretty famous feuds. When should a person start a feud with someone publicly?
I guess my threshold for feud is weird. It’s like, by all means feel free to say you find me just generally repulsive, that you hate me, you hate my work, that you think I’m an asshole. That I’m ugly or stupid or offensive. All of those are completely legitimate areas to criticize me or attack me in public, and I’ll probably shrug my shoulders. Where I get into a feud is if I feel like you’ve lied about me. Or that you’ve willingly misrepresented me in a way I really don’t want to be misrepresented. Or if you’ve misrepresented, or lied about, something I feel very passionate about — like food. If you’re going to have an enemy, it should be someone who you respect. My arch-enemy, Alan Richman who I wrote about having a feud with, we actually get along very, very well now and have snuck out for dinner together on more than one occasion. I feel happy about that. I enjoy having an epic battle, but I can change my opinion about a person, and I respect people who can change their opinions.
-
Yes, Stella the two of them indeed see confession as not only in a legalistic way, but, it also helps them gain favor back from those who hold them accountable for their bad behavior and sins. I can't see Erlend going to the priest and confessing all he has done. He is a man with an alter ego, and on a mission to rise up to the levels of King and ruler. Most men with those aspirations will not allow Christianity and all it's spiritual beliefs get in his way. He may have gotten his absolution from the Bishop and Archbishop, but the one person he will never be able to get to see him in the eyes he wishes, will be Kristin. She knows they have done things terribly wrong against man and God, and her feelings for Erlend will forever be marred by this knowing at what expense their happiness has come from.
pg. 258 "I am thinking," said Kristin, cold with dread," on all them we have brought to sorrow that we might see this day"
"I am thinking on her who had to pay with her life, because she held Erlend dear," she whispered shivering."
"Well if you come not to pay with your life yourself, ere you are half a year older," said Lady Aashild harshly. "Be glad while you may__ "What shall I say to you, Kristin?" said the old woman in a while, despairingly. "Have you clean lost courage this day of all days?" Soon enough will it be required of you twain that you shall pay for all you have done amiss__have no fear that it will not be so."
But when she and Erlend knelt together in the wedding_mass, all around her seemed but some trickery of the sight__the tapers, the pictures, the glittering vessels, the priests in their copes and white gowns. All those who had known her where she had lived before__they seemed like visions of a dream, standing there, close-packed in the church in their unwonted garments. But Sir Bjorn stood against a pillar, looking at those two with his dead eyes, and it seemed to her that that other who was dead must needs have come back with him, on his arm.
She tried to look up at Saint Olav's picture__he stood there red and white and comely, leaning on his axe, treading his own sinful human nature underfoot__but her glance would ever go back to Sir Bjorn; and nigh to him she saw Eline Ormsdatter's dead face, looking unmoved upon her and Erlend. They had trampled her underfoot that they might come hither__and she grudged it not to them.
It seemed to her she was kneeling with Erlend on a cold stone. He knelt there with the red, burnt patches on his pale face; she knelt under the heavy bridal crown, and felt the dull, crushing weight within her__the burden of sin that she bore. She had played and wantoned with her sin, had measured it as in a childish game. Holy Virgin__now the time was nigh when it should lie full-born before her, look at her with living eyes; show her on itself the brands of sin, the hideous deformity of sin; strike in hate with misshapen hands at its mother's breast. When she had borne her child, when she saw the marks of her sin upon it and yet loved it as she had loved her sin, then would the game be played to an end.
It gave me chills reading: Soon enough will it be required of you twain that you shall pay for all you have done amiss.
Sir Bjorn stood against a pillar, looking at those two with his dead eyes
"The dead woman had shaken herself free of them all. He would have me and I would have him; you would have him and he would have you, said Eline. I have paid__and he must pay and you must pay when your time comes. When the time of sin is fulfilled it brings forth death. . ."
And then this....He lifted up her face a moment, looked down into it, and drew his hand down over her face and body, with a strange haste and roughness, as though he tore away a covering. "Forget," he begged, in a fiery whisper," forget all, my Kristin__all but this, that you are my own wife, and I am your own husband. . . " With his hand he quenched the flame of the last candle, then threw himself down beside her in the dark__he too was sobbing now: "Never have I believed it, never in all these years, that we should see this
day. . ."
I have great fear for what is in store for Kristin and possibly her baby, I feel she has been a part of Lady Aashild and Erlend's plan all along. There is something Lady Aashild has out for Kristin, that could have to do with her past, and Ragnfrid's. Lady Aashild said to Kristin, "Think on your own child," said the lady, "Be glad that you are drinking at your wedding with him who is its father."
This reminded me of Ragnfrid's confession of being pregnant on her wedding day, not knowing who the father of her baby was. Is Erlend truly just a nephew of Lady Aashild's, or could he secretly be her son? Something just feels off here.
PatH., This occasional mention of the pagan element seems to lurk about the story like the sight of wolves in the forest.
Yes, we are told by scripture to always be on guard,
Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
A few wolves I am seeing are, Lady Aashild, Sir Bjorn, and Erlend.
Barb, I fear Kristin's headstrong, stubbornness, may have gotten herself into more than she could ever imagine.
-
Pat was commenting on the side by side lifestyle that included the 'new' Christian attitudes, that were not the same as the beliefs of Rome, and they still practiced Old Norse pagan elements that in every culture, the church adapted and adopted some of those very same pagan attitudes and ways of worship - Even the church at this time in history was still forming itself - there still was not the Cannon Law that Jesus was God and Man - it had been fought over and those who believed one way or the other without believing Jesus was God and Man were called Heretics but it was not Cannon Law till 1417 at the Council of Trent.
The overarching attitude about marriage at this time in church history and still, to a measure is active although, some change was creeping in during the twentieth century, is that celibacy was superior - most of us can even remember as children attending Catholic School being told it was more difficult for our parents to get to heaven then the nuns and priests - and some nuns even said parents, because of their having children could not get to heaven - this all was the result of the Desert Fathers who after Christians were no longer fed to the lions wanted to create a life with as much difficulty as earlier to show their love and devotion.
Even St. Paul says, "Now as a concession, not a command, I say this. I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion." Teaching that marriage is a last resort for Christians who could not take control and remain chaste.
As a married women I always had it in for St. Monica the mother of St. Augustine, who as a Church Father, wrote the most difficult attitudes about women and marriage - she prayed for 20 years that not only would he become Christian but that he never marry so he could be a leader among Christians - he lived for 13 years with a women of lessor rank than his mother thought seemly and had a son but then abandoned both in order to marry an heiress to please his mother.
The history of the church is not based on the way of thinking we enjoy today - much of what we value today came from centuries of power struggles that led to laws adapted by the church that form our thinking today - there was much the church did to scare folks to ward off civil unrest - we can too easily forget that where the church was active it was also running the government, as today we see Iran that embraces Sharia Law as the law of the land - in Norway during the 14th century the church was still being formed and was not yet, nor did it ever in this land of independent people, become the law of the land as it did in most other European Nations. On top of which we need to remember the Church in Rome was still forming itself - We are reading about a time in history before the Schism, when we had three popes all vying for power and before many of the edicts we take for granted did not yet exist and when Popes and Cardinals did not have to be ordained priest and so the church was very political.
Reading in this story all this guilt is seeing how behavior was controlled with traditional-community-acknowledged-symbols would be like today, many who during the 60s rebelled against the Viet Nam war by burning the flag, our symbol for the nation and for some as sacred as the blood of a saint is for a religious group - most grown folks I talk to today have a guilty laugh and toss off their lack of respect to their impetuous youth but then, we do not have members of the community pointing and gossiping and affecting their acceptance in the community to even affecting their ability to earn as a life long punishment, much less the fear there is some secret power that could kill or maim your children -
We read book after book about the history of the church and we learn that these symbolic traditions surrounding weddings and other holidays came from the pagan traditions practiced in each corner of the globe, traditions held long before Christianity and the success of the Church had been and is still is, that it always wove the principles of Christ within the old pagan beliefs in order for the people to understand and then that woven cloth of Christianity and Pagan became the seamless expression of the 'new' religion.
Part of the guilt that both Kristin and Erlend feel is as much placed on them by the expectations of the community as the idea of breaking the laws of the church - the laws of the church are not etched in rock and the people at the time had as much to do with deciding right and wrong then the punishment of the church - the only power over people the church had was guilt, shaming through public acts expected by the confessed sinner or excommunication, which was no different then being shunned - the only sin that brought on the inquisition was political and who accepted the religion in a nation governed by virtue of the church where as, in Norway during the 14th century the church was not yet in control - the Barons had more control and folks still really believed in Fairies, Trolls and Giants, that the earth was flat and the sky was a huge dome that would leak and if it leaked too much it could break flooding them all and the earth was held up by large tree trunks.
To me my take is seeing this man-made un-necessary guilt is sad and yet, these are our ancestors that we have to thank for living as best they could with so many different fears and thinking their behavior was the cause of and supposed to ward off as serious a matter as a death or condition of the birth of your child - knowing medicine today how sad is this - they still have the black plague to experience and we today, whose heritage is European are the product of those who were about half the population that lived through that disease.
-
Barb, I agree with you about the guilt placed on Kristin. I am reading the second book, The Wife, and I can say that so far in my reading the church has not been a friend to Kristin. It makes me angry that she can be judged so harshly when the parish priests have bastard children for all the world to see. Hypocritical. Controlling by guilt is not loving nor is it healthy. I understand that the church is made up of humans who are not perfect but it seems like the bishops and priests thought themselves exempt from the rules they were trying to force upon everyone.
-
This occasional mention of the pagan element seems to lurk about the story like the sight of wolves in the forest.
StellaMaris, I love that. It's so exactly the feel of the story.
-
"the bishops and priests thought themselves exempt from the rules they were trying to force upon everyone" Halcyon that appears to be the story of power -
Look at the US Congress today - During the Middle Ages according to a PBS film I recently watched being close to God and representing God was as powerful a position possible - thinking about how so little was known about the disasters that happened and how it was all tied to omans and the result of not following some law that was supposed to prevent bad things from happening -
Those living before as late as the eighteenth century had no real knowledge of the human body, medicine, how storms came about on and on - for thousands of years there was a god for everything till western religion, Judaism or Christianity said there was only one God and so all the fears were placed on the doorstep of this one God and if you are a spokesmen for this one God you were next to God and in the most powerful position -
There is an old saying something about ultimate power corrupts and it takes the best of men not to be corrupted. Think on the Borges who ran the church from Rome.
Halcyon I do find the history of the church fascinating - but then having been educated by the Benedictines and the Carmelites who both encouraged learning the history of how the church evolved I found as you say the church is a collection of people, some with the attitudes of St Francis of Assisi similar to our current Pope and some assuring continuation like Pope Clement I, 92A.D. and the more current Benedict XVI and some who push and make the church more than it was like St. Gregory and Pope John XXIII of this century who convened Vatican II - and then the many who allowed their power to corrupt and for instance reading the life of Saint Hildegard of Bingen we learn she was busy scolding the Pope and Luther, who after visiting Rome was so horrified he became the movement that was the Reformation.
It is fascinating to learn how church history is tied to the history of the western world just as much as the history of the western world is tied to the history of the church.
-
It is fascinating to learn how church history is tied to the history of the western world just as much as the history of the western world is tied to the history of the church.
Barb, I agree. The history of the church is fascinating and you are fortunate to have been educated by such enlightened clergy. I also find it fascinating how pagan rituals have been incorporated into Christian traditions.
-
We missed finding out about these Saints - St. Crispinus
Member of the imperial Roman nobility. Brother of Saint Crispian with whom he evangelized Gaul in the middle 3rd century. Worked from Soissons, France, they preached in the streets by day, made shoes by night. Their charity, piety, and contempt of material things impressed the locals, and many converted in the years of their ministry. Martyred under emperor Maximian Herculeus, being tried by Rictus Varus, governor of Belgic Gaul and an enemy of Christianity. A great church was built at Soissons in the 6th century in their honor; Saint Eligius ornamented their shrine.
Because of his association with shoes, shoe-making, etc. a shoeshine kit is called a “Saint-Crispin”; an awl is “Saint Crispin’s lance”; and if your shoes are too tight, you are “in Saint Crispin’s prison.”
I knew I heard of St Crispian and sure enough in Shakespeare's Henry V
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-yZNMWFqvM
-
oh wow St. Clement's church has more meaning than is obvious.
The night after King Olav II Haraldsson fell in the Battle of Stiklestad east of Trondheim on 29 July 1030, the body was laid in a simple wooden coffin, taken by boat to Trondheim and buried in the sandy bank further up the Nidelven river. According to the saga, those who did this were the farmer at Stiklestad, Torgils Hålmuson, and his son Grim. The following year the coffin was taken up and given a new grave outside St. Clement's Church in the town. Shortly after, on 3 August 1031, the coffin was again taken up and moved into the church, after the King had been examined and canonised by Bishop Grimkjell.
Part of the St. Olav altar frontal in Nidaros Cathedral (ca 1320) depicts Translatio Olavi, when Bishop Grimkjell on 3 August 1031 finds the body intact, sweet-scented and with hair and nails having grown since the King died. Encouraged by the people’s demand, he canonises Olav. "The King’s body was carried into St. Clement's Church and placed over the high altar. The coffin was covered with costly cloths. Soon many miracles took place because of King Olav’s holiness", writes Snorri Sturluson, our main source.
And then St. Clement's Church is named for this St. Clement - there are several including, according to some the second Pope after St. Peter and other Historians say the fourth Pope after St. Peter - however, this St. Clement's would hold a special place in the hearts of seafarer's as in a coastal town in Norway.
St. Clement's Church or Klemet's Church was one of the Roman Catholic parish churches of the old Oslo in Norway. The church was consecrated St. Clement, who was martyred by being drowned with an anchor tied around his neck and thus became the patron saint of, amongst other things, seafarers.
-
I see Kristin being extremely upset and yes, concerned about her being right with the church, but more so, I see her struggling with her own personal self. She knows what she has done is wrong. It's not about the church, or others shaming her and judging her, as much as she is feeling her accountability in what she has done to others who love her, and feels she has accountability for Eline's death. This is self examination, wanting and needing forgiveness, because it matters to her.
Kristin is basically a very good person. She cares about others, she has been raised by good parents. Nobody's perfect, but her parents have given her not only the love of her Catholic faith, but they have taught her about being a good human being. Not through shame, judgement or chastisement from the church, but through their love and want for her happiness. Kristin wanted forgiveness from the priest, mostly because she wanted to make right within herself. She wants to be a good human being.
As for Erlend being absolved, I don't think he could give a hoot about the church, it's laws, or faith, he just is looking to make things right with the King, and if getting absolution is what will get his favor back, then that's what he will do.
As for bishops and priest thinking they were exempt from the rules they were trying to force upon everyone, I personally see it as we all are sinners, regardless of what position we hold in the church, be it lay person, priest, nun, deacon, monk, bishop or Archbishop. I'm not so sure I see the rules were being forced on anyone, because from the beginning of time God has given us the freewill to make choices. Should clergy be expected to behave better, yes, but remember, their robes do not exclude them from sinfulness.
I have not gone on into the next book yet. Is everyone who is joining us in the trilogy ready to move on to the The Mistress Of Husaby? Part One The Fruit of Sin is 100 pages (275-378) Do we want to read it all in one chunk, or split it in half? I don't mean to rush anyone, and we can surely continue discussing these chapters as well. PatH., What do you think?
-
Er...have we all moved on to The Wife at this point? I've stopped reading so I can go on with the group, where is everyone? ???
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
April/May Book Club Online
Kristin Lavransdatter
by Sigrid Undset
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kirsten_lavransdatter/Bjolstad.jpg) |
This Nobel prize-winning book is the tumultuous story of the daughter of a 14th century Norwegian nobleman-farmer.
I loved it when I first read it decades ago, and now there’s a new translation which makes it even better.
Schedule: April 21-25 Jørundgaard, Chapters 1-4
April 26-30 Jørundgaard, Chapters 5-7
May 1 or 2-4, The Wreath, Chapters 1-3
May 5-9, The Wreath, Chapters 4-8
May 10-13, Lavrans Bjørgulfsøn, Chapters 1-4
May 13-16+, Lavrans Bjørgulfsøn, Chapters 5-8
Book 2--The Wife (The Mistress of Husaby)
May17+ Part 1, The Fruit of Sin
Questions:
Jorundgaard
Chapters 5-7:
How much control did young people have over who they married?
Why can't Kristin and Arne even think of marrying?
Kristin doesn't much want to marry Simon. Why didn't she ask her father to release her from the betrothal?
After her encounter with Bentein, Kristin made some mistakes that made her more vulnerable to gossip. Should she have avoided these?
What do you think of Simon?
In the fuss over Arne's death, Simon behaves very capably and sensibly. Why does his calmness make Kristin like him less?
The Wreath:
Chapters 1-3
Kristin seems to fall for Erlend instantly and completely. Does this this seem realistic? Does Erlend feel the same way?
What is Erlend like? Can you like or approve of him?
What is the oath the two swear to each other after the dance? Is it binding?
|
|
Discussion Leader: PatH
-
We haven't moved on yet, but it's time. Does everyone want to read the whole first section--The Fruit of Sin? If you don't mind 113 pages (in Nunnally) I'd prefer that to splitting it up into two rather small bits. We can finish anything we have to say about the first book while everyone is reading.
Barb, What about you? You only had the first book. Will you be able to get your hands on the rest? We're going to need your churchly expertise.
-
Bellamarie you have to be careful with the concept of Free Will - yes, it was in the old Text of the Bible but it was still debated with the concept of predestination and it was only in 1888 that Pope Leon XIII wrote the papal encyclical on human freedom with most of the belief we now have coming about in the twentieth century -
My guess after reading this story of Kristin is that there was so much of life thought to be controlled by behavior and ceremony, omens, amulets, magical words, because of not yet having the knowledge how things happened so that what today is taken for granted then would have seemed a miracle therefore, a controlling force would seem reasonable.
Also, the issue of Free Will and Predestination is wrapped up in the argument that went on for over 1000 years if Jesus was God or Man or both. If Jesus was God than the crucifixion was not the painful ordeal and as God, Jesus could have stopped it but, as man then Jesus was at the mercy of his captors and could not have opened the gates of heaven by his death. This argument is wrapped up with man's free will as described in the old testament or if predestination led to the death of Jesus. This argument was picked up by Luther and Calvin mostly in response to the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas who wrote extensively on free will but it is not till 1888 that we have a more definitive accepted view on free will.
Trying to sort out what the religion was like during the early 14th century sure is a trick and a half and then as we read to realize Norway was still sorting out what the religion was to them. At this time come to think on it - there was not yet any translation of the Bible except the Latin translation - the Latin Vulgate was still dominant in Western Christianity through the Middle Ages.
-
Pat I am sorry if I am holding things up - I find so many tidbits we did not look at when we all were so caught up in the story and our moral outrage with Erlend's behavior - I am wondering if it shook some of our feelings for the protagonist, Kristin seeing her choose Erlend - it is so easy to feel attached to these characters as if they were real people.
I still see Erlend as the North Wind, that hard blowing, cold bitter wind that can freeze us to the bone and I am imagining his use in the story is to bring Kristin to a place of understanding and self-determination - I think the word folks are using these days is agency. We shall see what we shall see as we read onward -
If everyone is ready to go forward my second book DID ARRIVE YESTERDAY - used, from Amazon - Hallelujah - however as I see these tidbits I do want to continue to share because to me the book is more than a story about characters and I hope our reading brings us into the symbolism and theme of the book not just the plot and characters experiences and choices.
-
Barb, there isn't such a thing as holding us up with tidbits--everything we think of enriches the story.
to me the book is more than a story about characters and I hope our reading brings us into the symbolism and theme of the book not just the plot and characters experiences and choices.
Yes, we do need to look at the book this way too, and if we do it by first analyzing the plot, and then filling in, that's fine.
-
More riches - when Kristin prays to St. Lawrence - who is St. Lawrence but more, what did he do -
St. Ambrose is the earliest source for the tale - that after the death of his friend from Spain, Pope Sixtus II, who was of Greek origin, one of the most famous and highly esteemed teachers in Zaragoza, was put to death by order of the emperor Valerian, who issued an edict that all bishops, priests, and deacons should immediately be put to death. As 1st Deacon and in charge of the Church treasury St Lawrence asked for three days to gather together the wealth.
He worked swiftly to distribute as much Church property to the poor as possible, so as to prevent its being seized by the prefect. On the third day, at the head of a small delegation, he presented himself to the prefect, and when ordered to give up the treasures of the Church he presented the poor, the crippled, the blind and the suffering, and said these were the true treasures of the Church. One account records him declaring to the prefect, "The Church is truly rich, far richer than your emperor." This act of defiance led directly to his martyrdom on 10 August. St Lawrence was the last of the seven deacons.
According to lore, St Lawrence was able to spirit away the chalice used during Christ's Last Supper (the "Holy Grail") to his home town, Huesca, in present-day Spain, with a letter and a supposed inventory, where it lay hidden and unregarded for centuries. When St. Augustine connects St Lawrence with a chalice, it is the chalice of the Mass:
For in that Church, you see, as you have regularly been told, he performed the office of deacon; it was there that he administered the sacred chalice of Christ’s blood.
According to Catholic tradition the Holy Grail is a relic sent by St Lawrence to his parents in northern Aragon. He entrusted this sacred chalice to a friend who he knew would travel back to Huesca, remaining in the monastery of San Juan de la Peña, core of spiritual strength for the emerging Kingdom of Aragon. While the chalice's exact journey through the centuries is disputed, it is accepted by many Catholics that it was sent by his family to this monastery for preservation and veneration. Historical records indicate the chalice has been venerated and preserved by a number of monks and monasteries through the ages. Today the Holy Grail is venerated in a special chapel in the Catholic Cathedral of Valencia, Spain.
-
aho - I think this was an important one that we should know about - there is a literary device called the unseen character that gives clues to the plot and helps to give a clue to the protagonists state of mind.
Well after reading about St. Margaret from Scotland, which makes more sense to be venerated in Norway than a St. Margaret from Greece or the St. Margaret from Alexandria, and the amount of attention to St. Margaret given in the story - which by the way there are still active these guilds that are insurance policy guilds - a friend joined and got very good rates at the Hunter's Guild - the guild entitles you to other benefits and social events -
Anyhow back to St. Margaret, I am thinking she is an unseen character that from reading her story I am thinking Kristin had an ideal in her head of how she could marry and influence this knight that rescued her and the way he lifted her onto her horse she felt so "honoured and uplifted". I can see we ought to watch and see how much of the story of St. Margaret foreshadows the life experience for Kristin. Does Kristin have 6 children, does she go off to another community after a marriage...etc.
Here is the story of St. Margaret from Scotland -
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=304
-
oh and the riches keep coming - the procession to St. Margaret's Mass includes the Cistercians who established Hovedøya Abbey on an island off Oslo in 1147 - The original monks were from the monastery in England, Kirkstead Abbey that had only been established in 1139 by a group of 12 monks from the largest and best preserved ruined Cistercian monasteries in England, Fountains Abbey. It seems Hovedøya Abbey, during the medieval period was one of the richest institutions in Norway, holding over 400 properties, including a fishery and timber yards.
Here is an architectural layout for a Cistercian or a Benedictine Abbey
http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?action=post;topic=4658.280;num_replies=286
The Abbey is dedicated to St. Edmund, who was king of East Anglia from about 855, that little is known but he was supposedly martyred in Denmark by the Vikings or maybe even the Danes. More important, the Abbey is also dedicated to The Virgin Mary - during the Middle Ages is when the cult to Mary was established.
"The twelfth and thirteenth centuries saw an extraordinary growth of the cult of the Virgin in western Europe, in part inspired by the writings of theologians such as Saint Bernard of Clairvaux (1090–1153), who identified her as the bride of the Song of Songs in the Old Testament. The Virgin was worshipped as the Bride of Christ, Personification of the Church, Queen of Heaven, and Intercessor for the salvation of humankind."
And in the early 14th century comes the Vierge Ouvrante from Cologne. When closed, the hinged sculpture is of the Virgin nursing the Christ Child, who holds the dove of the Holy Spirit. Her garment opens up, like the wings of a triptych, to reveal in her body the figure of God the Father. He holds the cross, made of two tree trunks, from which the now-missing figure of Christ hung. The flanking wings are painted with scenes from Christ's infancy or Incarnation, that is to say, the embodiment of God the Son in human flesh.
(http://the-great-learning.com/schreinmadonna-nuernberg-1.jpg)
All Cistercian houses were dedicated to the Virgin, under the title of the Assumption, ‘Queen of Heaven and Earth’, and throughout its history the Order was closely identified with its devotion to her cult. Mary was first celebrated in the Cistercian liturgy in 1152. The Little Office of Our Lady was sanctioned as a community prayer in 1185, her votive Mass celebrated on Saturdays from 1220, and by the thirteenth century the Salve Regina, in many ways a defining feature of the Order, was sung at the end of Compline to conclude the liturgical day.
Wow and another bit where the circumstances sound like foreshadowing some of Erlend and Lady Aashild's experiences, even touching symbolically on the death of Erlend's rival, the deceased Arne.
When Saint Bernard's mother dies in France he becomes a Cistercian and three years later, he was sent to establish and build a new abbey also in France. Bernard assisted at the Council of Troyes putting together the outlines of the Rule of the Knights Templar, who soon became the ideal of Christian nobility. Upon the death of Pope Honorius II in 1130, a schism broke out in the Church. Louis VI of France convened a national council of the French bishops, and Bernard was chosen to judge between the rivals for pope. The upshot of this massive travel by Bernard to negotiate between all of Europe's kings and leaders is that Innocence becomes Pope because Anacletus, his rival dies. In 1139, Bernard assisted at the Second Council of the Lateran. Bernard denounced the teachings of Peter Abelard to the pope, who called a council at Sens to settle the matter.
And then the biggie - Following the Christian defeat at the Siege of Edessa, the pope commissioned Bernard to preach the Second Crusade, led by Louis VII of France (his wife is Eleanor of Aquitaine) and Conrad III of Germany, with help from other European nobles. The Second Crusade in an utter failure and during the last years of his life Bernard is saddened by this and the entire responsibility for the Crusade was thrown upon him.
-
Barb - Don't ever think your "tidbits" are holding us up. They give us a rich background to the story's plot and help us understand how the European world worked in the Middle Ages. It's interesting how the church has taken Christ's simple message of love, compassion and forgiveness and turned it into politics and intrigue. It seems like the church is in some ways like our Supreme Court, trying to make just decisions based on interpreting ancient events.
-
PatH., I am okay with splitting up the 100+ pages. There are 6 chapters in The Fruit of Sin, I will read up to chapter 4 and stop, ( pg. 275-324).
Barb, Your information about the early church is fascinating! When you state Jesus could have saved himself from his crucifixion, yes as a human I suppose he could have fled, but as divine, He knew his purpose was to fulfill scripture. His human emotions led him to pray in the Agony in the Garden:
Matthew 26:36-46 Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.” 37 He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.” 39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” 40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. 41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.” 42 He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.” 43 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44 So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.
We have to keep in mind when we refer to the "Church" being responsible, these are human beings, they were give the ability to think and feel with emotions, ideologies, aspirations, and yet they were also capable of the seven deadly sins that would bring them to making decisions in contradiction to God's laws. Given freewill, to make choices causing them to be sinners, is something I am certain God knew would happen, and so there is where the sacrifice of Jesus was important in the Christian faith, bringing forgiveness, and showing the greatness of God's love for all....yes, even these sinners who choose to use their power for their own gains.
Much like Erlend, Olaf etc., and then you have Lady Aashild using potions and mystical powers to gain her place of importance.
The seven deadly sins, also known as the capital vices or cardinal sins, is a classification of vices (part of Christian ethics) that has been used since early Christian times to educate and instruct Christians concerning fallen humanity's tendency to sin. In the currently recognized version, the sins are usually given as wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony. Each is a form of Idolatry-of-Self wherein the subjective reigns over the objective.
The Catholic Church divides sin into two categories: venial sins, in which guilt is relatively minor, and the more severe mortal sins. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, a mortal or deadly sin is believed to destroy the life of grace and charity within a person. "Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us – that is, charity – necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation."[1]
According to Catholic moral thought, the seven deadly sins are not discrete from other sins, but are instead the origin ("capital" comes from the Latin caput, head) of the others. Vices can be either venial or mortal, depending on the situation, but "are called 'capital' because they engender other sins, other vices".[2]
Beginning in the early 14th century, the popularity of the seven deadly sins as a theme among European artists of the time eventually helped to ingrain them in many areas of Catholic culture and Catholic consciousness in general throughout the world. One means of such ingraining was the creation of the mnemonic acronym "SALIGIA" based on the first letters in Latin of the seven deadly sins: superbia, avaritia, luxuria, invidia, gula, ira, acedia.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins
It can get a bit controversial depending on where the reader is in their personal beliefs today. It's interesting the comparison you have made with Kristin and St. Margaret, we will have to keep this in mind as we go on.
-
Bellamarie I gave a synopsis of the arguments used by those deciding if Jesus was God or Man or both - they were not my thoughts - and as you stated, if Jesus fulfilled scripture, as the response by those who believed Jesus was God then, using Logic and the basic principles of Philosophy in order to develop Theology as they did, is how that argument also believed in predestination - had not heard the idea that Jesus, as man could have fled - interesting thought - the church started to come to an agreement at Chalcedon but it continued to spiral for another almost 1000 years.
This issue is no longer an argument within the church - the Roman Catholic Church accepts the Trinity and accepts that Jesus was both God and Man however, it was not yet settled as a point of Theology at the time in history that our characters Kristin and Erlend lived nor has it been accepted by the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church.
Today, it is easy to use the Biblical versus as proof but those versus were not considered proof when this argument took place. The argument, often taking front stage at council after council and in the writings of the Popes and the Doctors of the Church, was debated using logic to prove this many sided issue.
-
Oh lordy here we go again with the lightening - gotta get off and for how long who knows - we really need the rain but this has been going on now for almost 3 weeks - at least the lakes that were only 38% full have risen some so that one of the many boat ramps is finally touching water and the report is in that the St. Edwards Aquafer is up by 2 inches so that we will have enough water to see us through the summer - oh another really gotta go...
-
According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, a mortal or deadly sin is believed to destroy the life of grace and charity within a person. "Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us – that is, charity – necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation."
In the currently recognized version, the sins are usually given as wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony. Each is a form of Idolatry-of-Self wherein the subjective reigns over the objective.
[1]
This is the essence of what I personally feel this story is about. The transformation and conversion of Kristin. It is her personal and spiritual struggle/journey throughout these chapters. The subjective reigns over the objective.
It could very well be the author's life as she too converted to Catholicism.
I love how Kristin, even though she has this great love for her faith and God, she shows how our human nature can overcome or overshadow that love, and distract us by our wants, desires, and how others can influence our choices, good or bad, in separating us from our own personal relationship with God. Ultimately, this is what I feel Kristin's goal is, and will be the ending of this story. The death I see will be Kristin's old life, taking on a new life, as we have been taught to do through our journey through the Lenten season, bearing in mind, Jesus came and died so we may have that second chance/new life, through repentance and forgiveness, and everlasting life.
I expect Kristin will find her peace and happiness in the end, because I believe her love for God, and her need for herself to have that relationship with God, will prove to be greater than her love for Erlend.
Barb, Nothing but great admiration, and respect for all your posts. I completely understood it was not "your thoughts." We would be so much less informed without your much researched information. Now, let's pray God settles all that rain and lightning down for your area. ;)
-
I've found something really interesting. I have Nunnally in one volume, but it's also available in three volumes, and while doing an internet search, I found the introduction to one of the later volumes. The structure of the first book is a ballad. In Norwegian folklore, the elf-maiden lures young girls into the mountain for orgies with the mountain king. In the ballad, "Liti Kjersti" is captured for this purpose. Kjersti comes back to visit home, and her mother realizes she is pregnant. But Kjersti is carried back again, given a drink of forgetfulness, and stays with the mountain king forever. There are incidents in which Kjersti becomes dizzy gazing at her garlanded reflection in water.
So here we have the bare-bones skeleton of the first book, but Undset has gone a long way with it, fleshed it out, changed it, added other themes and purposes.
Now what? The first book is the whole ballad. Undset is going to do something different from now on.
-
PatH., Wow! this truly falls in line with my theory, Lady Aashild has put this whole relationship between Kristin and Erlend into motion, (Kristin/Kjersti and Erlend the mountain king.) I can't wait to see where this author does take this, with new themes, twists and turns.
We suspected the Ballard had significance to the story itself, back in Chapter 3 of The Garland.
Leave it to us SeniorLearn members, we never leave a stone unturned!
But keep in mind, this author has also made it her mission to inform the readers of the church history, and teachings. Very vital to how the characters are acting and reacting to life situations.
-
Yes, I think we're going to go a long way from the ballad.
-
Today (May 17th) is Norway's "Constitution Day", the equivalent of our July 4th. It celebrates their becoming an independent nation and signing their constitution. That is centuries in the future for Kristen, but I think we should have a party. I'm putting on my Nowwegian traditional dress now (in my imagination).
http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/norway/constitution-day
-
I'll bring lutefisk. ;)
-
Part 1 of book 2 is kind of one unit, but let's start talking about the first three chapters as soon as we've read them, and add the remaining three a day or two later.
We can also wind up anything we have left to say about The Wreath.
-
Took a long nap while electricity was in and out - the thunder with the lightening shook pictures off my walls - talk about thinking there is a mountain king - ha only our mountain king would be hundreds of miles away in west Texas - although the storm did come from the west - you never know ;)
Interesting a Ballad - some of the Ballads in the Francis James Child collection have over a 100 stanzas like The Knight and the Shepard's Daughter but the construction is different - Come to think of it, was Beowulf a Ballad? - I remember we read that when Seamus Heaney came out with his new translation. I wonder if that has something to do with the Archer translation sounding a bit more poetic.
Pat I am not sure I understand - is Liti Kjersti the background folklore or myth that is known in Norway and helps to fill out what happens to Kristin as a child and then later as a young women or is Liti Kjersti the Norwegian name for Kristin and the story we are reading was altered to include more folklore.
-
Pat H--excellent and fascinating tidbit! This really colors up the story for me. But as I look back, I wonder if Asahild wasn't trying to help Kristin when she dug her nails into her hand while Kristen was losing herself looking at her own reflection--as though trying to bring her out of her trance?
Spinning back on the Kindle to re-read the Mistress of Husaby [gee a paper copy would have been so much easier!]
On a side note: Sorry to hear I missed a discussion of Heaney's Beowulf!
-
Here is my contribution to the celebration!!!!
http://mylittlenorway.com/2014/05/food-basics-for-norways-constitution-day/
Food always plays a part in any Norwegian celebration, but the food tradition on the 17th of May is not what you might expect. There are no 10 course meals with seasonal delicacies that have been traditionally prepared for a feast after the ringing of the church bells. On a day when children are the feature, you don’t eat adult food. The day is filled will all the food children like to eat, and that means lots of pølse and is krem! (sausages and ice cream)
(http://mylittlenorway.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/polse-med-brod.jpg)
(http://mylittlenorway.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/morello-cheese-cake.jpg)
Berries are also a feature on the 17th of May, for cakes a desserts.
This year at our school celebration they will be serving lapskaus as a warm option. Even though the sun is usually shining, it does get a little cold on our 17th of May in the Arctic; we still have snow on the mountains. Some people like to have fancy meals at hotels but this is certainly not the norm.
17th of May food is very simple really, the bare basics, just like the children’s parade, and the whole day in general.
-
That's my kind of holiday! I'm still a child when it comes to eating.
-
Barb, Liti Kjersti is a ballad which applies a general superstition (the elf-maiden luring women into the mountain) to a specific fictional character, Kjersti. Undset has then taken the ballad and used it as a general outline for her story. We can't count on complete correspondence, for instance, I agree Aashild is trying to help Kristin come back to reality in that incident.
StellaMaris, most of us missed Beowulf. It was in 2002.
-
Oh dear, I don't think Lady Aashild was trying to help Kristin at all when she dug her nails into her hand. It would take a stretch of my imagination to consider that, especially afterwards she says:
"Soon enough will it be required of you twain that you shall pay for all you have done amiss__have no fear that it will not be so."
JoanK., I am with you, I love all festivities, because I love the great food everyone brings. I go way overboard and have tons of leftovers. The 4th of July is not the same without my Mom's banana pudding. I make it every year in remembrance of her and my childhood.
-
Well, Kristin and Erlend are finally married, and so far it doesn't look like "happily ever after", more like "bumpily ever after". Kristin has married into the nobility. Were you surprised at what was and wasn't different about her new home? The manners of her new family?
-
I enjoyed the imagery of Kristin's difficult journey by boat to ther new home, her unease continues even as she travels by land. It gives the idea of a long and difficult shift in her life, much longer than simply from point A to point B.
As well, we see Erlend fully identified with the sea, covered with salt himself and elated by the sea. He seems very at home in that man's world and happy to be heading to his estate with his bride, clueless as he is to her condition.
I was not surprised at all by the poor condition of the estate under Erlend's management. We are told only the horses seem to have had some decent attention [our boy Erlend does like horses...] but Erlend is demonstrated to be ignorant of the law pertaining to keeping fields planted, a law which Kristin actually informs him about. Things are in disarray and poorly husbanded here. It seems as long as Erlend has his own income to maintain his lifestyle, he cares little about how the estate is run.
The biggest surprise to me is the transformation in Kristin once she arrives at the estate. She goes from lovesick maiden to capable farm steward. She enlists the help of Ulf and begins to gain the confidence and alliance of the estate servants. She doesn't crumple despite ill use at Erlend's hand, nor at the fact that most around them know of her pregnancy. She is troubled at the thought her parents will learn of her early pregnancy but continues to demonstrate great competetence at managing the estate. If the author had not used the voyage as an indicator of great and difficult change, it would be hard for me to believe the seemingly quick transformation in Kristin.
-
I like the idea of the symbolism of the voyage.
The biggest surprise to me is the transformation in Kristin once she arrives at the estate. She goes from lovesick maiden to capable farm steward.
It's kind of ironic considering what Lavrans said to Sir Baard and Sir Munan when they discussed betrothal:
"But now I must tell you in regard to Erlend's offer that my daughter has not been raised to manage properties and riches herself, and I have always intended to give her to a man in whose hands I could confidently place the maiden's welfare. I don't know whether Kristin is capable of handling such responsibilities or not, but I hardly think she would thrive by doing so."
But her upbringing has actually served her well. She has plowed with her father, and tagged along with him in his daily routine. Lavrans' policy of not being aloof from the hard work means that she has seen how a farm is run.
As for thriving, I don't know about the long run, but at the moment, I think the necessity for working so hard at this is keeping Kristin from dwelling too much on her other problems and fears.
-
I was surprised to read how horrible the living conditions were at Husaby. I did not expect Erlend to be a hard worker, but I never dreamed he would allow his estate to be so poorly kept. I guess Eline was telling the truth when she said how badly in shape it was. It gave me the creeps reading this:
pg. 279 For Kristin had not much sleep the first night, even though the priests had blessed her bed. "Twas spread above with silken pillows, with sheets of linen and bravest rugs and furs: but beneath was dirty, mouldy straw, and there were lice in the bed-clothes and in the splendid black bearskin that was spread over all. Many things has she seen already in these few days. Behind the costly tapestry hangings, the unwashed walls were black with dirt and soot. At the feast there had been masses of food, but much of it spoilt with ill dressing and ill service.
But there was a loft half full of flax that had been left lying unused__there must have been the greatest part of many years harvest. And then a storehouse full of old, old unwashed and stinking wool, some in sacks and some lying loose in heaps. When Kristin took up a handful, a shower of little brown eggs fell rom it__moth and maggots had got it.
Everywhere she had seen ill husbandry..... The cattle were wretched, lean, galled and scabby; and never had she seen so many aged beasts together in one place.
And so Kristin Lavransdatter began to guide and order all things in her house.
Well the saying goes, A man's home is his castle. In this case I was thinking how entitled Erlend is. He wants nobility, titles and respect, yet he does not lift a finger, nor take pride in the things he owns. So it's no wonder he did not feel it necessary, to return Lavran's cart to him, he has no pride or care for anything that others find of value, and worth taking care of.
Now that they are wedded and at Husaby, there are sure signs this will not end well. He has already gotten angry and struck her, and mocked her father and family because she shows the pride and knowledge her father has, and has taught her. Even their guests come and disrespect them at their table. What a sham that was. So, as much as Kristin and Erlend hoped to keep this pregnancy a secret, it seems all are talking behind their backs, and shaming them for their actions. My worst fears are proving to be coming true for Kristin. Oh and let's not forget this little tidbit:
pg. 322 'Twas like, then, the folks said sooth that said Erlend Nikulausson was weary of his marriage already, and cared not for his wife. . . .
Only does Erlend shows he cares at all, is when he thinks she is lost to the wolves. Was that because people would see he failed miserably as a husband, or he really feared her dead?
Without her faith she has nothing, since she does not have her family nearby.
-
Some fill-in while everyone's reading.
Barb, thanks for the speech from Henry V. It's a show-off piece for actors, for good reason, and I've always liked it. I don't know what the real Henry V said to his troops, but the next morning 5000 British and Welsh troops managed to defeat about 30,000 French troops, mostly because of the superiority of English longbows.
I'm confused. are there two saints, Crispin and Crispian, or is it one name with two spellings?
Beowulf: I'm not an expert on what is a ballad, but I think this isn't one, it's a poem, though I'm sure it was meant to be recited. I have mixed feelings about Heaney's translation. It's wonderful poetry, better than the original, but it misses the feel of the original, which has a fierce, pounding rhythm, with not much gracefulness. When the movie of Beowulf came out in 2007, Blake Gopnik wrote a wonderful article for the Washington Post, describing just how strange the original poem is. (He had studied it in Anglo-Saxon.)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/21/AR2007112102353.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/21/AR2007112102353.html)
-
Here is a great site about Ballads and more specifically the work of Francis James Child - the blue headings are linked to the definitions with a nice description of what is a Ballad according to History - I loved the Scotch Irish Ballads that were an integral part of mountain music and playing the Dulcimer - http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ballads/early_child/
Wonderful memories from the years I lived in Lexington and was a part of the project taking Senior Girl Scouts along with some Students from Barea Collage into the mountains where communities were found and where the collage students winterized the log structure used for school while the rest of us inoculate the children and taught history to the adults. This was back in the 60s - as roads were being built whole communities, still speaking Elizabethan English were found. After the Whiskey tax they had no way to get the corn down those mountains to the rivers to sell where as, before they made it into whiskey that could be brought down by mule and economically transported - after the tax closed off trade they ended up becoming self-sufficient isolated communities.
Amazing to see some of the young ones that we would bring with us to pick up supplies at Morehead Collage and for an hour or more while we were there they would turn on and off a light switch that they had never seen or one boy opened and closed a door that he never saw hinges other than leather straps. And then getting water from a faucet was magic. Some of these communities did have electricity but no light switches and some even had one TV - because of seeing movies on that community TV they assumed all the Native American Indians were dead since that was what they saw on the movies.
I learned about the wonders of Sassafras and Golden Seal that grew wild and where to get wild honey and the group sings were wonderful to hear with that plaintiff sound of the string instruments tuned to the modes rather than the scales we use today.
Interesting, except for the monks during the Holy Day Festival we do not hear much about everyday folks singing in Kristin's story do we. Come to think of it I do not know of any collection of old Norse songs - you would think at least there would be work songs used to keep a group rhythm raising a sail or cutting a log.
-
Interesting point about the Norse songs. I don't know of any either. In Kristin so far, we have seen one ballad, the one about Ivar Herr Johnsøn, that people danced to, and when people dance it seems to be to ballads. I wonder what kind of dancing they do.
One of the sources I found says that Undset incorporates six different ballad forms into her narrative. Anyone who spots one, please tell us.
-
Pat from the Child's web site this explanation of Ballads seems to work for the way the book is written
The emphasis is on action and dialogue, not description or characterization
Ballads tend to cut to the heart of a story: This is what happened. This is who was there. This is what they did. This is what they said. Often the entire story is pared down to a dialogue, as in "Lord Randall"
Ballads tend to be characterized by impersonality on the part of the singer: The narrator is not personally touched by story, is not taking sides, and typically sings without much dramatization. When a judgment is to be voiced, it comes from within the tale. Consider "Barbara Allen" (Child #84): She rejects him. He dies of a broken heart. She dies of a broken heart. The singer isn't about to exclaim "How could she!"
-
tra la found something about old Norse music
"When Christianity came to Norway at the end of the l0th Century, the universal Catholic Church had long since laid down the rules for singing at religious services. Only in connection with the veneration of saints was there room for national contributions to the Gregorian choral tradition, and only here was it possible for Norwegian-composed sequences and other liturgical music to find their place. Best known is the sequence Lux illuxit, which was used during the recent St. Olav celebrations at Nidaros Cathedral, The sequence Predicasti Dei care was used at weekly Wednesday masses, held on the day on which St. Olav was martyred in 1030.
During the first half of the 14th Century, some Norwegian churches acquired organs and the statue of the lyre player in Nidaros Cathedral in Trondheim shows that many other instruments were used in Church services. Norwegian theology students, who were trained in Paris at that time, introduced polyphony from the Notre Dame School and other impulses from European music. Norway had long had close ties with England, and historical sources show that the cultured classes in Europe's northernmost archbishopric were satisfied with only the best quality."
During this time of the Mary Cult the Ladymass was written - most are Anonymous however, Hildegarde Bingen did write one Ladymass - there is a nice collection of chants and polyphony about Mary and the Child called The Lily and The Lamb - this is when music went from repetitive psalm - the psalm verses were to be sung in tone with a short repetitive phrase, like "He will call upon me, and I will hear him" is said between each verse - back and forth - Then we have chant and still a bit later music advances to polyphony - singing Chant meant there was a background almost drone sound and one voice sang, even if that one voice was several singers there was no harmony only a single clear voice - where as, polyphony combined not only a number of part but also each voice had an individual melody and they harmonized with each other.
Here is a trio of women who sing from a Ladymass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E44z3vgd_lY
Oh and here is a treat - found the Song of Roland that became a piece of music soon after it was written in France about the French Knight Roland and it was sung in Norway sometime in the 12th century - perfect to hear the chant - the drum is the drone and listen the voices are all singing the same tune without voices singing individually - oh this is so perfect to hear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=414mrPgK5Yk
And this wonderment again, in chant with the drone only being some of the breakaway voices that all sing in unison - but oh my oh my oh my you gotta listen - known in the 12th century in England - do not know if this one reached Norway or not but oh just listen to the Song of Angles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kLu4_skcL0
Ok now this piece is called a Viking folk Song - the music confuses me though - the Viking period in History was earlier than the 14th century and music had not developed yet to be as musical as we are used to hearing today - the instrument does include a tapping drone - but it sounds too much to me more like 15th century folk music - maybe it is and since it was Norwegian it was simply labeled as a Viking tune - something is not adding up here but then it is my ear and I have not found anything to give us dates - their costume is right for an earlier century - if anyone finds anything that can date this please let us know - it is a lively tune befitting the song of villages or even seafaring men however, if it is 15th century than our Kristin and Erlend would not have heard such music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAO7_GryWTM
Now this piece starts out sounding like it could be an early ballad - the more monotone song with the drone suggests it is an early piece but then it just gets too musical - so again, I am thinking it was probably a ballad that grew the story and this version that sounds too much like 15th century was a later version - it is about the battle of Stanford Bru which took place in England and has historically marked the end of the Viking era. Seems the Vikings came ashore leaving their arms behind and were set upon by King Harold Godwinson and his army in 1066. If nothing else the woodblock prints are great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YzEA_uQBg4
And this I am sure is a modern piece done after the ancient music but the scenery in Norway is just exquisite and is closer to our idea of what Kristin and Erlend must have seen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUH7CqJcaM0
-
Thanks for all the musical treats, Barb. I particularly like the Song of Roland. I have to laugh at those noble, heroic pictures of Roland blowing his horn Oliphant, though. Roland's troops were the rearguard, and the reason they were so badly slaughtered was because, when they were ambushed, he was too pigheaded to blow his horn to call back the rest of the army until it was too late.
-
I can understand why Kristin doesn't tell Erlend she's pregnant before the wedding; she doesn't want to put a damper on the festivities he's been looking forward to. But why doesn't she tell him once they reach Husaby?
And what about Erlend? Does he still love her? It's evident that he is hoping to repair his reputation by marrying respectably, to a good woman. How much of a factor is that?
Bellamarie, I agree with you that Kristin has a rocky road ahead of her.
-
I never really understood why Kristin did not tell Erlend she was pregnant as weeks went by, after the were married Erlend's reaction when he discovers Kristin is pregnant was so hurtful. He refused to speak to her. He worried about his reputation being ruined all over again. Then he pretty much tells her, his son by Eline will come first with him.
He does not act like a man in love, even towns folk are gossiping about how he trearts Kristin, and seems tired of his marriage already. Just as Eline tried to warn Kristin, he will tire of you as well.
-
OK I think I found a key that we have been missing - it reminds me of the saying, "You thought you were in the game to win and you were not even in the same game."
This is a BBC documentary about Viking Sagas - the Sagas were earlier stories written down during the 13th and 14th centuries - there is much about these Sagas that is the stuff of Sigrid Undset
The documentary is just shy of an hour long and filled with much information that can help us make sense of all of this rather than seeing behavior that seems outrageous - and we learn listening to these professionals in this documentary that as we have a saying about death and taxes - the Sagas are about sex and death.
We know Sigrid Undset was patterning her story after the old folks stories and so we have a story filled with sex and death - now I can go back and laugh at all the rigamarole Erlend was involved with children, no marriage, wanting marriage with Kristin, jealousy, sex with Kristin and god knows how many others - instead of describing a chess match of paying taxes it is a chess game of sex and it seems check mate is often death.
Another point - We have agreed the story pulls us in and that is evidently typical of the Sagas written about real people, including the names of accurate historical people - it seems in these northern countries, with 7 to 9 months of winter, storytelling was an important development - stories that include magic. Magic was thought as real which the documentary points out we cannot understand today and the words themselves said in the right order can give the speaker more power, making things happen.
We know Kristin is living at a time when the old ways still had a hold on the people although, they were Christian and that is evidently a key -
First of all the documentary points out it was Christians who defined the old religion or ways as Pagan - for the people it was the only religion they knew and instead of like in Europe where there is good and bad and good things happen to good people with bad things happening to those whose behavior is bad - well - not true for these northern lands. Basic to the Sagas and to the old ways the one who is the biggest ahum, using their language here - the biggest asshole has success with it.
Now if that doesn't sound familiar I do not know...
More highlights showing us we were not in the same game - During the time of the old ways revenge was the engine of crisis that would then continue for generations and - get this- it was these strong women who pushed the violence between the men - one would humiliate the other that led to a violent killing that had to be avenged by the other on down the generations with each act of blood violence breaking the most sacred bonds of family and friends - there seems to be no end and tra la... I was thinking of you Bellamarie - a break comes into the generational revenge cycle with the entrance of the Christians who are given credit for bringing peace and forgivingness, calming the violent vengeance.
I think we see this back and forth between the Christian element and Lady Aashild, who with her 'words' suggest that Kristin has more suffering ahead of her and her potions and herbs appear to be an expression of the old ways. This is one of the conflicts in our story - a time that has one foot in Christianity and the other is still in the old ways.
Watch it and see what tidbit you find - if nothing else, the documentary about the Sagas gives us more insight to better understand the life experience of Kristin and Erlend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taVsvYWp1UU
-
Barb:
there is much about these Sagas that is the stuff of Sigrid Undset
Aha, Barb, you see it. It's there in the story, it's there in the style, and it's there in the characters. When I started reading Nunnally, It felt like I was reading a saga, the styles were so similar. Now I don't feel it so much, Undset's own voice has taken over in my mind, but it's still there. You don't see the style so much in Archer, but the feel is still there.
Undset has added a lot to the saga-style, which is a pretty bare-bones way of telling a story: the descriptions of the scenery, the times she goes into a character's head and lets you see what they're thinking and feeling. Many of her characters have the same Scandinavian style of not expressing their feelings, except maybe every ten years or so. Ragnhild doesn't confess to Lavrans that she wasn't a virgin until they have been married for twenty seven years, and they don't discuss it again for years more.
I'll have to fit your BBC video in in little bits during the day.
-
Barb, Thank you for the wonderful link. I learned quite a bit watching this video. I loved the scenery, the setting makes me feel so much more into our very own story. I am just marveling at the way our author Undset, has taken from Norse literature, and written Kristin Lavransdatter. She has given the reader so very much valuable insight not only into the sagas of their eras, but also the pagan and Christian beliefs. I truly feel enriched as a person just reading and learning about Norway, their culture, paganism, and religious conversion, not to mention the drama, romance and revenge. As the video states, "The characters in family sagas are easy to identify with their feelings, failings, fears and hopes."
In this video of this particular saga, we see where Christianity was able to bring about peace and forgiveness, to put a stop to the generational feuding, which often ended in killing your own friend, and family member.
I wonder if our Kristin, will be like Guðrún in the Laxdaela saga, and end up joining a convent in the end, or becoming a monk. It seems she is searching for a forgiveness and peace, that only she will find through repentance, redemption and reconciliation with God.
PatH., When I started reading Nunnally, It felt like I was reading a saga, the styles were so similar. Now I don't feel it so much, Undset's own voice has taken over in my mind, but it's still there. You don't see the style so much in Archer, but the feel is still there.
Nunnally's writing style compared to Archer for me, is far more like the author of this saga Laxdaela, which is an unknown. Although, I did find this:
Since the saga has often been regarded as an unusually feminine saga, it has been speculated that it was composed by a woman.[1] The extensive knowledge the author shows of locations and conditions in the Breiðafjörður area show that the author must have lived in Western Iceland.[2] Internal evidence shows that the saga must have been composed sometime in the period 1230-1260.[3]
On several occasions, Laxdæla saga explicitly cites what appear to be written sources. It twice refers to the writings of Ari Þorgilsson, once to a lost Þorgils saga Höllusonar and once to a Njarðvíkinga saga, perhaps an alternative name for Gunnars þáttr Þiðrandabana.[4] The author was also likely familiar with a number of other written historical sources .[5] Nevertheless the main sources of the author must have been oral traditions, which he or she fleshed out and shaped according to his or her tastes.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laxd%C3%A6la_saga#Authorship_and_sources
I found this from National Catholic Register:*** WARNING **** I did not read any further in this article due to possible spoilers, but wanted to share their feelings of the language.
That's the first marvel of this trilogy, written in the 1920's and set in Catholic medieval Norway: the incredibly fluid and evocative language. I'm reading the translation by Charles Archer and J. S. Scott, which preserves enough of the formal language of medieval times to give it flavor, without obscuring the meaning or tone of the narrative. (I haven't read the 2005 Nunnally translation, which is said to be more concise.) I suppose Norwegian is a language similar enough to English that at least some phrases must have translated easily, but that doesn't fully explain the miraculously felicitous language.
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/simcha-fisher/i-cant-believe-you-havent-read-kristin-lavransdatter/#ixzz3amo7SDqU
PatH., If it is okay, I would like to finish the next 3 chapters of this section. I am going to be very busy this weekend with my grandkids spending the night, and basketball tournaments out of town, so I will try to check in when I get a free second.
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
April/May Book Club Online
Kristin Lavransdatter
by Sigrid Undset
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kirsten_lavransdatter/Bjolstad.jpg) |
This Nobel prize-winning book is the tumultuous story of the daughter of a 14th century Norwegian nobleman-farmer.
I loved it when I first read it decades ago, and now there’s a new translation which makes it even better.
Schedule: April 21-25 Jørundgaard, Chapters 1-4
April 26-30 Jørundgaard, Chapters 5-7
May 1 or 2-4, The Wreath, Chapters 1-3
May 5-9, The Wreath, Chapters 4-8
May 10-13, Lavrans Bjørgulfsøn, Chapters 1-4
May 13-16+, Lavrans Bjørgulfsøn, Chapters 5-8
Book 2--The Wife (The Mistress of Husaby)
May 17-20 Part 1, The Fruit of Sin, Chapters 1-3
May 21-? The Fruit of Sin, Chapters 4-6
Questions:
Jorundgaard
Chapters 5-7:
How much control did young people have over who they married?
Why can't Kristin and Arne even think of marrying?
Kristin doesn't much want to marry Simon. Why didn't she ask her father to release her from the betrothal?
After her encounter with Bentein, Kristin made some mistakes that made her more vulnerable to gossip. Should she have avoided these?
What do you think of Simon?
In the fuss over Arne's death, Simon behaves very capably and sensibly. Why does his calmness make Kristin like him less?
The Wreath:
Chapters 1-3
Kristin seems to fall for Erlend instantly and completely. Does this this seem realistic? Does Erlend feel the same way?
What is Erlend like? Can you like or approve of him?
What is the oath the two swear to each other after the dance? Is it binding?
|
|
Discussion Leader: PatH
-
Yes, Bellamarie, do. I was just coming in to ask if people had read it yet. We left it a little vague, but said we would add the remaining 3 chapters in a couple of days, and it's time. A lot happens in them.
-
Well Ballamarie, Simcha Fisher sure sums it up doesn't she - well done finding that bit in of all places the Catholic Register - ha reminds me I had not renewed my subscription in I bet 6 months but then so much I have to catch up since I was spending so much time seeing Charlotte through her death.
What was that light opera written by Bernstein - something about the two waring gangs in NY and the white lover dies in a fight with the Hispanic gang that thinks it is standing up for the girl - I can even hear some of the music in my head but cannot think on the name - I know it is a take off on Romeo and Juliet but knowing that the good guy has bad things happen, it is the closest I can think of to this idea that good does not necessarily attract good but I am not sure I can think of a movie or novel where the bad guy is the hero - Fonzie to a degree but not really, he is more irreverent rather than bad, he just buys into the new ways that teens at the time were taunting adults and the establishment.
Hmm have not seen the movie but I wonder if the lead in that Wall Street movie from last year could be an example - from what I do hear he was quite immoral - I doubt though that there was this revenge motive - maybe Fist Full of Dollars - just scratching my head trying to come up with a protagonist that like Erlend, who is typical of some of these pre-Christian Sagas, taking what he wants when he wants it, explaining it away with logic and charm and still tripping from land estate to the king's court so that you never know where he is going to pop up.
As to Kristin now I am going to be on the lookout for how she encourages him to see those who disapprove as his enemy and if there are times he tries to dampen down and rebuild his reputation that she sabotages - I can see now when her friend, back when Kristin was in the convent and first spent time with Erlend, her friend was sowing the seeds of discontent - sure she was the messenger of Erlend's character but I got the impression he was not willing to share the truth at first to have some time when he was accepted by Kristin as a clean slate and was very willing to share his story within a day of that more than proper night in the garden. At the time I was reading how the friend gossiped about him I thought she was jealous and being mean - well it appears she may have been just that since we know now it is women who pushed the vengeance.
How sad to realize a teenage act of passion would haunt you making you feel 'less than', racked with guilt for the rest of your life - this is where being Christian knowing God's love and forgiveness did not penetrate but only built more guilt for Kristin's mom - we do not know her teenage back story but it appears she was bonded over by her parents to Lavrans making them both unhappy. I can see how Kristin was not going to let that happen to her even if she did not know all of her mother's story.
Ya know, come to think of it we have a couple of Presidents who could fit some of the characteristics of an Erlend. Ah yes... and further just hit - this concept of sex and what we see as an unseemly marriage fits Norway's great hero saint - St. Olaf - hmmm
-
Barb, I think you're referring to West Side Story, one of my favorite musicals. It occurred to me that the Church, like Kristin, is also on a spiritual journey. It's like a living organism, never static but always evolving, trying to adapt to an ever changing environment. Very interesting.
-
The musical was West Side Story.
I don't see Kristin as sabotaging Erlend's reputation. She's building it as best she can, and if he had only kept his hands off her after they were betrothed, marrying her would have done much more for his status.
At the end of chapter one in this section Kristin and Erlend are talking, and she says: "--and it certainly would have been in in your own best interest."
He replies: "Jesus help me, Kristin--have you ever heard it said of me that I did anything that was in my own best interest?"
That's a fair summing up. Erlend is his own worst enemy.
-
But is he - only if we measure him by Christian standards rather than the standards of the old ways - that is where I now can see he has one foot in the Christian world and the author has him with one foot in the old world that in today's standards and in the Christian standards of the day he would be his own worst enemy. It will be interesting to see how Sigrid Undset sorts that out, these characters seem to carry guilt for behavior that for some is still the way of things - I almost wonder but have not re-read to see if Sigrid Undset is replacing guilt for what would have become a cycle of revenge in keeping with the old ways.
-
It occurred to me that the Church, like Kristin, is also on a spiritual journey. It's like a living organism, never static but always evolving, trying to adapt to an ever changing environment. Very interesting
.
Interesting indeed, Halcyon. I think you're right.
A lifetime ago I saw the original Broadway production of West Side Story. It was unforgettable. Chita Rivera is still around. At the moment she's starring in a Broadway musical based on Friedrich Dürrenmatt's play The Visit. She's 82.
-
Our conversations are criss-crossing, Barb. I think Erlend is his own worst enemy in any world. He always does what he wants without thinking of the consequences, and then tries to weasel out of it however he can.
-
Yes, Pat but that is the Christian way of looking at him - he is according to what we have learned about characters in the Saga piece he is acting as those who were in those stories and representing the way of life before Christianity.
I like how you say this Halcyon, "It occurred to me that the Church, like Kristin, is also on a spiritual journey. It's like a living organism, never static but always evolving, trying to adapt to an ever changing environment." ;) Although there are some today in Rome that are having a difficult time evolving for today's changing environment - but this story is really an example isn't it of a religion trying to change the society and yet, adapt to the society's way of life.
-
??"there are some today in Rome that are having a difficult time evolving.."?? Not sure what is being said here.
What section are we moving on to now--I've stopped at Part ll Husaby, Ch. 1.
-
You got it right, StellaMaris. That's where we're stopping for now.
-
StellaMaris that was just my side bar about the evolving church and how ironic that today some of the Curia are stuck in thinking recreate means to recreate the past, so much so that the German Alpine group from Vatican II are considering a break away - Pope Francis has his hands full and has gotten rid of some of the worst culprits.
I too have been on chapter 1 and wondered if we are waiting for next week to read and discuss further since this is a long holiday weekend.
-
ah thanks Pat - ask and you shall receive - chapter 1 it is...
-
Possible misunderstanding. We're stopping just at the start of Part 2, Husaby, just as we come to chapter 1 but not reading it. Finishing off The Fruit of Sin, 3-6.
-
PatH.,
I don't see Kristin as sabotaging Erlend's reputation. She's building it as best she can, and if he had only kept his hands off her after they were betrothed, marrying her would have done much more for his status.
I have to agree with you Pat, I don't see Kristin sabotaging Erlend in any way whatsoever. He is his own worst enemy by any measure, Christian or Saga. In these next chapters his brother the priest, talks with him and says since a boy he had gotten into trouble and their mother favored him. Erlend seems entitled, he expects everything to be given to him, yet what he does own he takes no pride in caring for it, even his own wife Kristin. She comes to Husaby and takes charge of an estate in ruin.
The woman I see, who is the saboteur, as the video states in Norse sagas, is Lady Aashild, and I am sure we will see why this is before the books end. Revenge and jealousy, are usually the prime reasons for such acts, so what do you think it will be? Possibly both?
Halcyon, I do see where the Norwegian culture, and church are evolving, as in the video Barb provided, it shows how it was beneficial to Norway to convert to Christianity. "Olaf wanted Christianity to make trade possible with other Christian nations so he promoted conversion."
Olaf is a major character in Norse sagas, Olaf became one of the wealthiest landowners in Iceland and played a major role in its politics and society during the latter half of the tenth century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_the_Peacock
These next 3 chapters are quite revealing.
Yes, indeed it was West Side Story! I loved that play.
-
I guess what I see and therefore say he was not his worst enemy is that he seems to fall in line with these Saga characters, who like Erlend take what they want, when they want it, and they too display this sense of entitlement however, I think they see nothing wrong with this and do not seem to shy from whatever the outcome. And so, I see Erlend more as an archetype of the old Norse character who, different then they he bumps up against this new Christian morality and the law, some of which is within him but only in his brain -
In one breath, he feels he should obey the laws and has a sense of guilt, not for his behavior but if things do not work out. In the other breath, he reacts with no conscious thought of the laws or the concepts of Christian behavior. To me he is living in his heart the old way and he has to load his brain before he acts with Christian sensibilities. Then, he could charm as a way of sidestepping the effects of this conundrum of both living the old way, which is true to his Aunt Lady Ashild and his mother's father Gaute Erlendsson, (who really epitomized the old ways) while struggling to act from his brain where lay his roots with the now deceased Bishop of Oslo and with King Haakon IV.
As to Kristin, early on when she heard of the disarray of Erlend's holdings and affairs she spoke of her farming skills and was going to get everything ship shape - in that she reminded me of what we read about St. Margaret of Scotland - with Erlend she had a calling beyond being a mother to their babies, to get his land and affairs in order.
She seems as caught in her passions for him as he is for her. I see her playing the game of having what she wants while trying not to step on the legal, church, family and social landmines of the time that will affect her reputation.
-
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xta1/v/t1.0-9/11295658_1606253549586353_394290513647783803_n.jpg?oh=37a25821b34f6690093300b707c058b8&oe=56085940&__gda__=1443509449_1b87e5ed7ccb88b763c22cb89b09d525)
The Yule Goat is one of the oldest Scandinavian Yule symbols and traditions. Its origins might go as far back as to pre-Christian days, where goats were connected to the Norse god Thor, who rode the sky in a chariot drawn by two goats, Tanngrisnir and Tanngnjóstr, and carried his hammer Mjöllnir.
-
Now that I've seen all of the BBC program, I see why you say Erlend is straight from the sagas.
That's a very interesting program. Did you notice, at 29 seconds into it, the brief scene of men seated on two facing benches with a fire pit between them? The halls of the people in our book would surely be more spacious, but it gives an idea of the system.
Before we go on, were the rest of you as appalled as I was at the behavior of Munan, Baard, Ulf, and Erlend at the pre-lenten feast? A nice set of role models for Erlend to have grown up with.
-
Thanks for getting me oriented. I'll stay on hold for now.
BarbStA: I see. Just for the record, I do disagree with your statement about the "Curia being stuck". I'll leave it at that and continue with the discussion of this wonderful book! ;)
-
Yes, PatH., I had mentioned it earlier about the disrespect they showed at their guests table. It was as if they were on a mission to call Erlend and Kristin out on all their sins at the table. Very sad, I could never imagine having someone come to my home and act like that.
-
I really like Gunnulf the priest, Erlend's brother. He seems to genuinely care about Kristin, and wants her to understand God is a forgiving God, and she can do penance and receive God's grace of forgiveness.
For all you who are not versed in Latin, this passage is:
Psalm 51 9-11 A prayer of Repentance
Averte faciam tuam a peccatis meis__ Hide Your face from my sins,
et omnes iniquitates meas dele. And blot out all my iniquities.
Cor mundum crea in me, Deus__ Create in me a clean heart, O God,
et spiritum rectum innova in visceribus meis. And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Ne projicias me a facie tua__ Do not cast me away from Your presence,
et Spiritum Sanctum tuum ne auferas a me. And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
I love the verses 1 - 19
Have mercy upon me, O God,
According to Your lovingkindness;
According to the multitude of Your tender mercies,
Blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
And cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions,
And my sin is always before me.
4 Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight—
That You may be found just when You speak,[a]
And blameless when You judge.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6 Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me hear joy and gladness,
That the bones You have broken may rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins,
And blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners shall be converted to You.
14 Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God,
The God of my salvation,
And my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
And my mouth shall show forth Your praise.
16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.
18 Do good in Your good pleasure to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You shall be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness,
With burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then they shall offer bulls on Your altar.
pg. 328 "Understand you this?" asked Gunnulf, and Kristin nodded and said she understood a little. She knew enough of the words' meaning to be strangely moved that her eyes should fall on them just now. Her face quivered a little, and she could not keep back her tears. Then Gunnulf took the psaltery on his lap, and said he would try if he could not mend it.
Here is when I think Kristin begins to feel, there is hope for her to be forgiven.
-
Thanks for the psalm, Bellamarie. It's lovely, isn't it.
Kristin has been fortunate in her spiritual advisers. First Sira Eirik, then the remarkable Brother Edvin, and now it looks like Gunnulf is going to be another, and a friend to her as well. What a contrast between him and the rest of his family. He's everything they aren't: studious, thoughtful, pious and good. Wonder how that happened?
-
Yes, Kristin has been blessed to have good spiritual guides in her life, and I would even include her own father. He is a good, Christian, hard working man, who has made it important to teach her not only about their faith, but also how to deal with tasks in life, which has come in handy for her now that it is necessary to keep Husaby in good order, not to mention sending her to the convent to help her to grow in her faith.
I was thinking when Gunnulf was telling Kristin about how Erlend was as a child, and the mother favored him and seemed to let him get away with misbehaving, and how it seems it does a child especially a male more harm than good to spoil and not discipline them, when growing up. It teaches them to think others will do the same, and when they do become an adult they feel entitled.
My philosophy with my two sons was to not always make everything in their life easy for them. Let them know what it is like to struggle to appreciate things in life. We helped both sons, and our daughter with their school tuitions, buying their first cars, and car insurance, but it was also expected of them to be responsible, to have some small job to pay for their gas, and extras they wanted to do while in high school and college. I know this story is taking place in the fourteenth century, but I am certain men were still expected to work and take care of things. Erlend does not even seem to care about the little family things, that Gunnulf seems to hold dear, such as the psaltery, and the game board. Two brothers, total opposites.
-
Interesting find - we think we know the Christian religion and its phases of change and growth and then I came across this bit explaining the contents of a book on Amazon
During the late thirteenth and early fourteenth centuries a group of monks with occult interests donated what became a remarkable collection of more than thirty magic texts to the library of the Benedictine abbey of St. Augustine’s in Canterbury. The monks collected texts that provided positive justifications for the practice of magic and books in which works of magic were copied side by side with works of more licit genres.
Magic in the Cloister: Pious Motives, Illicit Interests, and Occult Approaches to the Medieval Universe, Sophie Page uses this collection to explore the gradual shift toward more positive attitudes to magical texts and ideas in medieval Europe. She examines what attracted monks to magic texts, in spite of the dangers involved in studying condemned works, and how the monks combined magic with their intellectual interests and monastic life. By showing how it was possible for religious insiders to integrate magical studies with their orthodox worldview, Magic in the Cloister contributes to a broader understanding of the role of magical texts and ideas and their acceptance in the late Middle Ages.
And then I find THIS - shocked me speechless - had no idea - it was written later but includes the magic of earlier time by a POPE
This being a partial translation of Wellcome MS 4666, with numerous additions translated from the French editions of the Grimoire of Pope Honorius dated 1670, 1760 & 1800, and a new translation of the German edition of 1845.
The Grimoire of Pope Honorius is the first and most important of the French ‘black magic’ grimoires which proliferated across Europe in the 17th-19th centuries. Combining a grimoire of conjurations to demons of the four directions and seven days of the week with a Book of Secrets full of simple charms, the Grimoire of Pope Honorius was second only to the Key of Solomon in the influence it exerted on magicians, charmers and cunning-folk in both rural and urban France. This grimoire also played a role in social events which rocked France, being used in the Affair of the Poisons which scandalised the French royal court in 1679, and by the young priest who assassinated the archbishop of Paris in 1857. (who knew??!!??)
The Complete Grimoire of Pope Honorius contains material translated from all four of the different French editions of the Grimoire of Pope Honorius, including the complete text of one manuscript version never before seen in English (Wellcome 4666), and a new translation of the later corrupted German version of 1845. All of the material and its variations found in the five different editions of the Grimoire of Pope Honorius is contained in this work, presenting the entire corpus of this grimoire in print for the first time. In addition to tracing much of the material to sources such as the Heptathlon, the works of Agrippa and earlier religious texts for the first time, the derivation of much of the material into later grimoires including the Grimorium Verum, the Grand Grimoire/Red Dragon and the Black Dragon is clearly demonstrated.
As well as charms for health, wealth, sex and protection, the Grimoire of Pope Honorius also contains a substantial number of agrarian charms by the Norman magician Guidon for protecting livestock, emphasising the popular rural use of such charms until at least the 19th century. The corpus of charms comes from diverse sources, including Scot’s Discoverie of Witchcraft (1584), and some like the Letter of St Anthony can be dated back to at least the 13th century.
Including numerous illustrations, and tables tracing the derivation of the material through the different editions and into other grimoires, the Complete Grimoire of Pope Honorius demonstrates the versatility and significance of this grimoire, cutting past outdated misperceptions to a viewpoint which reflects more accurately the position of the Grimoire of Pope Honorius in the development of magic since the seventeenth century.
Then I find book after book on Amazon about how when Christianity entered the north in about 1100 there was an entwining of the old magic, ruins, witches etc. with the Christian message - I could have guessed since that had been and still is the pattern of the Church when it extends into new cultures however, some of these books are rather exact to the process of St. Olaf's hidden treasures, witches, and spirits of the air, water, and earth.
An example is DuBois, who wrote, Nordic Religions in the Viking Age in which he examines Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, and Mediterranean traditions to locate significant Nordic parallels in conceptions of supernatural beings, cults of the dead, beliefs in ghosts, and magical practices. These beliefs were actively held alongside Christianity for many years, and were finally incorporated into the vernacular religious practice. The Icelandic sagas reflect this complex process in their inclusion of both Christian and pagan details.
Thomas A. DuBois holds a doctorate in Folklore and Folklife from the University of Pennsylvania. He taught for ten years at the University of Washington, Seattle, and now teaches at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, where he is director of the university's Folklore Studies program. His research and teaching focuses particularly on Nordic cultures, chiefly Finnish and Sámi. In addition to producing a number of books of his own.
-
Barb, I have no doubt you will find slews of books written by many renowned scholars, and religious clergy, who have attested to magic, witchcraft, and paganism in the early times.
The Bible was pretty clear on its stance on worshiping idols, and other Gods, which any form of magic would be considered someone possessing supernatural powers, along with:
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
III. "YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME"
2110 The first commandment forbids honoring gods other than the one Lord who has revealed himself to his people. It proscribes superstition and irreligion. Superstition in some sense represents a perverse excess of religion; irreligion is the vice contrary by defect to the virtue of religion.
Superstition
2111 Superstition is the deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand, is to fall into superstition.41
Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47
Divination and magic
2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.
2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.
2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity
Here is a link that outlines Christianity and refers to paganism, and witchcraft.
Christianization of Scandinavia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Scandinavia
Here is a timeline on witchcraft and the Catholic church: http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_burn2.htm
The Witchhunt timeline:
* Prior to the 9th century CE: There was a widespread popular belief that evil Witches existed. They were seen as evil persons, primarily women, who devoted their lives to harming and killing others through black magic and evil sorcery. The Catholic church at the time officially taught that such Witches did not exist. It was a heresy to say that they were real. "For example, the 5th century Synod of St. Patrick ruled that 'A Christian who believes that there is a vampire in the world, that is to say, a witch, is to be anathematized; whoever lays that reputation upon a living being shall not be received into the Church until he revokes with his own voice the crime that he has committed.' A capitulary from Saxony (775-790 CE) blamed these stereotypes on pagan belief systems: 'If anyone, deceived by the Devil, believes after the manner of the Pagans that any man or woman is a witch and eats men, and if on this account he burns [the alleged witch]... he shall be punished by capital sentence." 1
* 906 CE: Regino of Prum, the Abbot of Treves, wote the Canon Episcopi. It reinforced the church's teaching that Witches did not exist. It admitted that some confused and deluded women thought that they flew through the air with the Pagan Goddess Diana. But this did not happen in reality; it was explained away as some form of hallucination.
* Circa 975 CE: Penalties for Witchcraft and the use of healing magic were relatively mild. The English Confessional of Egbert said, in part: "If a woman works witchcraft and enchantment and [uses] magical philters, she shall fast for twelve months...If she kills anyone by her philters, she shall fast for seven years." Fasting, in this case, involved consuming only bread and water.
* circa 1140: Gratian, an Italian monk, incorporated the Canon Episcopi into canon law.
* circa 1203: The Cathar movement, a Gnostic Christian group, had become popular in the Orleans area of France and in Italy. They were declared heretics. Pope Innocent III approved a war of genocide against the Cathars. The last known Cathar was burned at the stake in 1321 CE. The faith has seen a rebirth in recent years.
* 1227: Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisitional Courts to arrest, try, convict and execute heretics.
* 1252: Pope Innocent IV wrote a papal bull titled "Ad exstirpanda" which authorized the use of torture during inquisitional trials. This greatly increased the conviction rate.
* 1258: Pope Alexander IV instructed the Inquisition to confine their investigations to cases of heresy. They were to not investigate charges of divination or sorcery unless heresy was also involved.
* 1265: Pope Clement IV reaffirms the use of torture.
* 1326: The Church authorized the Inquisition to investigate Witchcraft and to develop "demonology." This is the theory of the diabolic origin of Witchcraft. 1
* 1330: The popular concept of Witches as evil sorcerers is expanded to include belief that they swore allegiance to Satan, had sexual relations with the Devil, kidnapped and ate children, etc. Some religious conservatives still believe this today.
* 1347 to 1349: The Black Death epidemic killed a sizeable part of the European population. Conspiracy theories spread. Lepers, Jews, Muslims and Witches were accused of poisoning wells and spreading disease.
* 1430's: Christian theologians started to write articles and books which "proved" the existence of Witches. 2
* 1436-7: Johannes (John) Nider wrote a book called Formicarius, which describe the prosecution of a man for Witchcraft. Copies of this book were often added to the Malleus Maleficarum in later years. Some sources say that the author Thomas of Brabant; this is apparently an error.
* 1450: The first major witch hunts began in many western European countries. The Roman Catholic Church created an imaginary evil religion, using stereotypes that had circulated since pre-Christian times. They said that Pagans who worshiped Diana and other Gods and Goddesses were evil Witches who kidnapped babies, killed and ate their victims, sold their soul to Satan, were in league with demons, flew through the air, met in the middle of the night, caused male impotence and infertility, caused male genitals to disappear, etc. Historians have speculated that this religiously inspired genocide was motivated by a desire by the Church to attain a complete religious monopoly, or was "a tool of repression, a form of reining-in deviant behavior, a backlash against women, or a tool of the common people to name scapegoats for spoiled crops, dead livestock or the death of babies and children." Walter Stephens, a professor of Italian studies at Johns Hopkins University, proposes a new theory: "I think Witches were a scapegoat for God." 3 Religious leaders felt that they had to retain the concepts of both an omnipotent and an all-loving deity. Thus, they had to invent Witches and demons in order to explain the existence of evil in the world. This debate, about how an all-good and all-powerful God can coexist in the world with evil is now called Theodicy. Debate continues to the present day.
* 1450: Johann Gutenberg invented moveable type which made mass printing possible. This enabled the wide distribution of Papal bulls and books on Witch persecution; the witch hunt was greatly facilitated.
* 1484: Pope Innocent VIII issued a papal bull "Summis desiderantes" on DEC-5 which promoted the tracking down, torturing and executing of Satan worshipers.
* 1486-1487: Institoris (Heinrich Kraemer) and Jacob Sprenger published the Malleus Maleficarum (The Witches' Hammer). It is a fascinating study of the authors' misogyny and sexual frustration. It describes the activities of Witches, the methods of extracting confessions. It was later abandoned by the Church, but became the "bible" of those secular courts which tried Witches.
* 1500: During the 14th century, there had been known 38 trials against Witches and sorcerers in England, 95 in France and 80 in Germany. 4 The witch hunts accelerated. "By choosing to give their souls over to the devil witches had committed crimes against man and against God. The gravity of this double crime classified witchcraft as crimen exceptum, and allowed for the suspension of normal rules of evidence in order to punish the guilty." 7 Children's testimony was accepted. Essentially unlimited torture was applied to obtain confessions. The flimsiest circumstantial evidence was accepted as proof of guilt.
* 1517: Martin Luther is commonly believed to have nailed his 95 theses on the cathedral door at Wittenburg, Germany. Apparently it never happened; he published his arguments in a less dramatic way. This triggered the Protestant Reformation. In Roman Catholic countries, the courts continue to burn witches. In Protestant lands, they were mainly hung. Some Protestant countries did not allow torture. In England, this lack of torture led to a low conviction rate of only 19%. 4
* Circa 1550 to 1650 CE: Trials and executions reached a peak during these ten decades, which are often referred to as the "burning times." They were mostly concentrated in eastern France, Germany and Switzerland. Witch persecutions often occurred in areas where Catholics and Protestants were fighting. Contrary to public opinion, suspected witches -- particularly those involved in evil sorcery -- were mainly tried by secular courts. A minority were charged by church authorities; these were often cases involving the use of healing magic or midwifery. 1
* 1563: Johann Weyer (b. 1515) published a book which was critical of the Witch trials. Called "De Praestigiis Daemonum" (Shipwreck of souls), it argued that Witches did not really exist, but that Satan promoted the belief that they did. He rejected confessions obtained through torture as worthless. He recommended medical treatment instead of torture and execution. By publishing the book anonymously, he escaped the stake. 8
* 1580: Jean Bodin wrote "De la Demonomanie des Sorciers" (Of the punishments deserved by Witches). He stated that the punishment of Witches was required, both for the security of the state and to appease the wrath of God. No accused Witch should be set free if there is even a scrap of evidence that she might be guilty. If prosecutors waited for solid evidence, he felt that not one Witch in a million would be punished.
* 1584: Reginald Scot published a book that was ahead of its time. In Discoverie of Witchcraft, he claimed that supernatural powers did not exist. Thus, there were no Witches.
* 1608: Francesco Maria Guazzo published the "Compendium Maleficarum." It discusses Witches' pacts with Satan, the magic that Witches use to harm others, etc.
* circa 1609: A witch panic hit the Basque areas of Spain. La Suprema, the governing body of the Inquisition, recognized it as a hoax and issued an Edict of Silence which prohibited discussion of witchcraft. The panic quickly died down.
* 1610: Execution of Witches in the Netherlands ceased, probably because of Weyer's 1563 book.
* 1616: A second witch craze broke out in Vizcaya. Again an Edict of Silence was issued by the Inquisition. But the king overturned the Edict and 300 accused witches were burned alive.
* 1631: Friedrich Spee von Langenfield, a Jesuit priest, wrote "Cautio criminalis" (Circumspection in Criminal Cases). He condemned the witch hunts and persecution in Wurzburg, Germany. He wrote that the accused confessed only because they were the victims of sadistic tortures.
* 1684: The last accused Witch was executed in England.
* 1690's: Nearly 25 people died during the witch craze in Salem, MA: one was pressed to death with weights because he wouldn't enter a plea; some died in prison, the rest were hanged. 5 There were other trials and executions throughout New England.
* 1745: France stopped the execution of Witches.
* 1775: Germany stopped the execution of Witches.
* 1782: Switzerland stopped the execution of Witches.
* 1792: Poland executed the last person in Europe who had been tried and convicted of Witchcraft. A few isolated extra-legal lynchings of Witches continued in Europe and North America into the 20th century.
* 1830's: The church ceased the execution of Witches in South America.
* 1980: Dr. Lawrence Pazder (1936 - 2004) and Michelle Smith wrote "Michelle Remembers." The concept of humans in league with Satan, which had been largely dormant for decades, was revived. Although the book has been shown to be a work of fiction, it is presented as factual, based on Michelle's recovered memories. 6 This book was largely responsible for triggering a new Witch/Satanist/Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA) panic in the U.S. and Canada.
* 1980 to 1995: Two types of trials were held in North America, which repeated many of the same features of earlier Witch trials:
* Staff at some pre-schools, day care facilities and Sunday schools were accused of ritual abuse of children. Evidence was based on faulty medical diagnoses and memories of non-existent abuse implanted in the minds of very young children.
* Tens of thousands of adults, victimized by Recovered Memory Therapy, developed false memories of having been abused during childhood. In about 17% of the cases, these memories escalated to recollections of Satanic Ritual Abuse. Hundreds of parents were charged with criminal acts. Almost all of them were innocent. Most of the charges involved acts that never actually happened.
Sanity has since prevailed. Most of the accused have been released from jail. Those held in the state of Massachusetts were among the last to be released.
* 1990's: Some conservative Christian pastors continue to link two unrelated belief systems:
* The imaginary religion of Satan-worshiping Witches promoted by the Church during the Renaissance, and
* Wicca and other Neopagan religions which are nature-based faiths and which do not recognize the existence of the Christian devil.
* 1994 to 1996: Several hundred people were accused of witchcraft in the Northern Province of South Africa, and were lynched by frightened mobs. 8
* 1999: Conservative Christian pastors occasionally call for a renewal of the burning times, to exterminate Wiccans and other Neopagans. One example shows the intensity of misinformation and hatred that fear of Witches can continue to generate in modern times. In 1999-AUG, Rev. Jack Harvey, pastor of Tabernacle Independent Baptist Church in Killeen, TX allegedly arranged for at least one member of his church to carry a handgun during religious services, "in case a warlock tries to grab one of our kids...I've heard they drink blood, eat babies. They have fires, they probably cook them..." During speeches which preceded his church's demonstration against Wiccans, Rev. Harvey allegedly stated that the U.S. Army should napalm Witches. One of the Christian's signs read "Witchcraft is an abomination" on one side and "Burn the witches off Ft. Hood" on the other. 9 (Ft. Hood is a large army base near Killeen TX. A Wiccan faith group is active there.)
* 21st Century: Due to a number of factors, including:
The collapse of the Satanic Ritual Abuse hoax of the 1980's to 1995.
The broadcast of many accurate TV documentaries about Wicca and other Neopagan religions.
Many Wiccans going public with their religious faith
the fear of Witches, Wiccans and other Neopagans has largely evaporated.
______________________________________________
So I guess it's safe to say, Kristin may want to stay as far away from Lady Aashild as possible. :o :o
-
Yes, what you shared was exactly my understanding since childhood of the churches pronouncements on witch practice, so it was unexpected information to find that we had incorporated some of these magical objects and practices. Makes sense, just never put it together that many of the practices before Christianity became part of the traditional Christian practices. I am thinking how we learned in high school, the Christmas tree and eggs at Easter as well as the hare, angles and religious medals were part of our ancient traditions before the acceptance of one God so, to learn there was Pope who gathered and put a book of this information together was new information.
The first Pope Honorius we read was excommunicated but not because of witchcraft. He was caught in the time when folks were arguing if Jesus was both God and Man. He supported and issued a decree based on Monothelitism, teaching that Christ has only one will, the divine will, in contrast with the teaching but not yet, dogma that Jesus has both a divine will and a human will.
The Pope Honorius III wrote several books including this book of Grimoire based on the teachings of King Solomon - some web sites say supposedly and others are more definite -
As high school students learning so much of our traditions around holidays are based in ancient ways, we always tossed it off as an extension of man's growth in spiritual understanding. Seeing the film from BBS and learning how the belief systems before Christianity were filled with a system of revenge in addition, seeing news specials today, learning this system of revenge is a factor among those cultures that had not yet experienced modernity, it reminds me of our special blessing living today in the western world. We are so lucky to live where generations of Judaism and Christianity helped form our values and we have the security of living with a humane and loving system to guide our lives.
I am reminded as we read this book, making me even more grateful, that much of this story that allows us to learn the struggle by those who lived 700 years ago is not our struggle. Some of these folks were given the grace to adopt the Christian values of the day, regardless the Christian values in the north were not fully formed. Erlend's brother, Gunnulf is the example of someone who received his education and training where the 'Roman' Church was ingrained into the culture (Paris and Italy) compared to others, like Erlend who are caught between two worlds. They still live surrounded by the culture, the family traditions including the old buildings designed in a pre-Christian floor plan that upheld the old ways without the unanimous support for the old. And even those who profess and live a life in the Christian traditions use the help of those who know the old ways - like when Lady Aashild, a declared witch-wife, is sent for to help Uvhild.
Much of this is confusing because if Lady Aashild and her use of herbs and potions is typical of being a witch-wife - why, when we know folks like Hildegarde Began from an earlier century grew herbs and made potions in her Abby. As most of us, I am not familiar with these old ways. I do not think learning about them or about those who gathered the information that will help us understand better this book is swaying how we practice our faith but it does help to see the growth pattern within the Christian Church.
Today, the Christian Church in Norway is 75% to 80% Protestant and so along the way there were practices of these now old Catholic ways that did not satisfy the people either. This book does not point us to look into how that change happened or how the people adapted but does show us both the old Nordic ways and the Christian values, which in the 14th century was the Norwegian's adaptation of the Catholic Church.
We learned in the first book that the priests were still either marrying or if not married were having children - we know at this time in history in Rome the Popes were having children but then it was not till mid nineteenth century that a Pope had to be a priest. And, we also know that since Constantine, in order to preserve the appearance of unity the church labeled groups with a different viewpoint heretics with some individuals and groups labeled heretics for political and economic reasons.
This book does give us a window into how the church developed. We can compare the growth in Rome, the center of the church's governing body, to the church as practiced in these lands recently converted. This journey of discovering how the church straddled the old ways, we are fortunate to read about in the Sagas and our good fortune is we have Undset who writes her story using the concepts of the Sagas. This historical struggle is the development of the church in new lands, as compared to more established but, also growing church within the Holy Roman Empire, like France.
Most of what is available to us and what we learn today is the history of the church centered in Rome. We seldom read or know about the straddling that took place as each area of the globe converted. I do not think it is one or the other - it is history. Some history is seldom shared today as many Pastors and Bishops focus on the pastoral view of the church and have not encouraged learning the governing and political side of the church. And so, when we read for instance of the recent struggle the US nuns have with the Curia we are not aware of the history that goes back before Vatican II. We only read about the highlights of their struggle.
These struggles have been part of the history of this church. I found learning this history endeared the church to me as a living gospel if you would, rather than a static accepted Icon of right and wrong.
-
Barb,
We are so lucky to live where generations of Judaism and Christianity helped form our values and we have the security of living with a humane and loving system to guide our lives.
I'm not so sure today we do have the security you speak of, or the loving, humane system. Christians are being slaughtered, and it seems little to nothing is being done to stop this. Our government and people seem to take the attitude, it is not our war to get into with ISIS, but in truth, it is every Christian nation's war to fight.
Today, the Christian Church in Norway is 75% to 80% Protestant and so along the way there were practices of these now old Catholic ways that did not satisfy the people either.
A new struggle we are now facing is, Ireland’s same-sex marriage referendum, and the priests are taking a stance of silence;
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/same-sex-marriage-northern-ireland-last-bastion-of-discrimination-says-amnesty-1.2223988
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholic-priests-group-won-t-take-stance-on-referendum-1.2151414
Speaking of changes, as a Catholic, I never thought I would see the day I would be reading this:
According to Amnesty’s Northern Ireland programme director Patrick Corrigan: “This historic result will echo around the world - it shows how a once socially-conservative country can transform itself into a beacon of equality.
I see it as a direct conflict in the Catechesis teaching:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7LQc3aXgU4
I found this a little dated 2011, but still interesting:
(http://www.pewforum.org/files/2012/07/christianity-graphic-24.png)
The world is changing, as it did back in the centuries before us, as it will continue to, we will see more and more government involvement in the changes in religions. Is it time for changes in the Catholic teachings? If the people refuse to accept it, and choose to leave the church because the church does not conform to their new lifestyles and beliefs, does this force the Catholic church and other religions to make changes? Where does this fall in with God's commandments and laws?
I really do appreciate Undset's insights in this story with witchcraft, religion and saga. It seems a perfect time for us to be reading this story.
Barb, as usual, all great points in your post.
-
Wow, that's a lot of theological history.I'll have to digest it a bit.
-
I think Pat, Undset does such a great job of drawing you in that it is too easy to have buttons mashed rather than stepping back and viewing the story and so reading how our protagonist is caught between two worlds and not wholly accepting the one closer to our way of life today is unsettling - seldom do we read anything any longer that is showing us ambiguity - a black and white world is so much easier to deal with but when you think on it most of us and most national and religious figures from the past were filled with ambiguity. Its a challenge to be comfortable with the dubious choices these characters are making so that knowing who to trust in the story we turn to the rules and regs as we know them.
Well I need to get busy again with my pickax - need to deepen the channel that runs along the front of the house so the water coming down the incline of my driveway from the street does not go straight into my garage and flood my house - lots of evacuations and bad flooding all around me but so far being as high as I am on the Mesa I am doing OK. One good thing out of this is in weeks the Lakes come from being 38% full to now 65% full.
-
Bellamarie, how could I have left Lavrans out of the list of Kristin's teachers? He has taught Kristin by the best possible way, by example as well as words. She followed him around everywhere, and took in everything she saw. This has certainly helped her tremendously.
We learn a lot about Erlend in this section. I was particularly struck by one thing Gunnulf said (p357 in Nunnally) "It was never easy for Erlend to know what was right. Ever since we were children, our mother thought whatever Erlend did was right, and our father thought it was wrong." No wonder he has to wing it.
Then we have Kristin's horrific childbirth experience, and we learn a bit more from his reaction.
Erlend goes to Jørundgaard to bring the news. On arriving, "...the peace of the place made an oddly deep impression on Erlend." (p374). Why? It's not even what I would call peaceful--he's in a courtyard surrounded by goats, with the children running around and the dogs barking loudly at him.
Lavrans starts to get to know his son-in-law better, and starts to like him. It's kind of funny. At first (p 377) "Finally he prayed for the strength to tolerate Erlend Nikulaussøn with a patient spirit so long as he was forced to have his son-in-law there on his estate." Then they ski back to Husaby together, and Lavrans comes to like Erlend. (p378) "He had prayed to God to grant him patience with this man, his daughter's husband. Now he was almost angry with himself because he was more fond of Erlend than he wanted to be."
What qualities is he seeing in Erlend? Can you imagine a way of life in which Erlend could use his good qualities and become a better man? Has your own opinion of Erlend changed in this section?
-
Barb, I was writing while you were posting. I was wondering about you this morning. Glad you haven't washed away yet.
-
Oh dear Barb, be careful with that pickax! Good luck with not flooding.
PatH., It's funny you ask, "Has your own opinions changed of Erlend in this section?"
I felt like Lavrans, I was trying very hard NOT to let my opinions change toward Erlend. Then by the very end of the journey on skis, I was finding myself maybe softening a bit, but ONLY because Lavrans was. I'm still not there yet. Erlend does have a knack to draw others in, but I will give him credit for going and getting Lavrans.
What a horrible experience Kristin had in her childbirthing. I was not sure what exactly this meant:
pg. 344 He laid the boy in his mother's arms. Sick with tenderness and joy, she rubbed her face against the little glimpse of red silky-soft face within the linen cloths. She looked up at Erlend. She knew that once before she had seen him with a grey, ravaged face like this__she could not remember when, she was so strange and dizzy in the head__but she knew that it was well that she need not remember.
Does this lead us to believe Erlend will not bond with this son of his? He finally holds Naakkve, and says: "You have not greeted your son yet, Erlend, or taken him in your arms," she said angrily. Erlend lifted the babe out of its mother's arms, and laid his face against it for a moment. "I doubt I shall scarce come to like you from my heart, Naakkve, till I have forgotten that you tormented your mother so cruelly," he said, and laid the boy down again by Kristin."
Erlend has already had two children born by Eline, it is not as if he did not know what a woman goes through in childbirth. I am suspecting that Erlend may be jealous of the love Kristin has for their son. He was close to his mother, so he does know what kind of a bond that can become. His father was not close to him as he points out to Gunnulf in their conversation later.
-
Erlend has already had two children born by Eline, it is not as if he did not know what a woman goes through in childbirth.
He might not. He has already told Kristin that he wasn't there when Orm was born, he was on guard duty. He came back in the morning to have his son placed in his arms, and that was when he swore to Eline that he would marry her. We aren't told whether he was around for Margret's birth. Kristin's experience sounds pretty horrendous, even for that time, in going on for several days. She and Naakve were both fighting pretty hard for their lives.
Will Erlend bond to Naakve? He could very well. He has bonded to Orm, his son by Eline. It's interesting that Kristin is also fond of Orm, and doesn't hold his origin against him.
-
Erlend seems ready to favor his son Orm, by this statement he makes to Kristin when they have this discussion:
pg.296 "You may believe, my Erlend, that small joy was mine last summer, when first I grew ware of this. And yet methought__me__thought if you should die and leave me before we were wedded, I had liefer you left me with a child of yours than all alone. And I thought, if I should die in bearing you a child__"twould be better than that you should have no true-born son to mount into the high-seat in your place when you have to part from this earthly home."
Erlend answered hotly: "For me, I would deem my son all too dear bought if he should cost you your life. Speak not so, Kristin. . . So dear to me Husaby is not," he said in a while. "And least of all since I have been sure that Orm can never inherit after me__" "Care you more for her son than for mine?" asked Kristin then. "Your son__" Erlend laughed a little. "Of him, see you, I know but this, that he comes hither a half-year or so too soon. Orm I have loved for twelve years__"
Kristin did seem to bond with Orm, when he came for a visit, but I got a strange sense Orm knew so much more and did not exactly bond as much with her. He did everything he should, but he did make a few remarks about his mother Eline, which gave me pause as if if he may have resentments hidden inside for Kristin.
-
Orm is bringing a lot of baggage into this situation; it's hardly surprising that he might be cautious. But at least his stepmother is accepting and likes him.
Now Lavrans has spent some time at Husaby, helping with the farm, and never saying an unkind word to Kristin. She has recovered from childbirth, Naakve is healthy, and it's time for her penance. So she has to walk barefoot to Nidaros, unaccompanied, to receive absolution from the archbishop, and to give the golden crown she dishonored to the church as penance.
Several things struck me. One is that although Erlend did an elaborate penance for the events connected with Eline's death, that was before his further sin of sleeping with his betrothed and conceiving a child before marriage, and he doesn't seem to have had to do any penance for that, while Kristin has to atone for that as well as Eline, and the crown she has to give up isn't even hers, it's the family heirloom. Double standard?
Another thing--it seems to be regarded as acceptable that Kristin should walk alone, 20 miles through countryside that's not familiar to her, carrying a priceless golden crown. She comes to no harm, but she would have been easy prey to anyone riding by.
But she makes it, and after much prayer and soul-searching, gives the crown. That night, she sees a vision of Brother Edvin. This isn't surprising, but what does it mean that he takes an old leather glove and hangs it on a moonbeam?
-
I was questioning the safety for Kristin and her baby on that journey to Nidaros, as well. And good point about Erlend not needing to do penance for having sex with Kristin before he wed her. How ironic, she would just happen to run into Simon on her way. Maybe they will deal with Erlend's sins in the future.
I need to go back and re read that dream again, not sure what to make of the old glove on a moonbeam.
Are we ready to move on to the next part?
-
Are we ready to move on to the next part?
Yes. We don't have much left to say about this section. I know you, I, and StellaMaris are caught up. JoanK? Halcyon? Barb, have you been washed away?
Let's read the first 3 chapters of Part II, Husaby now, and quickly add the remaining 4 in just a few days. Is that a good speed, everyone? We can do whatever you want.
-
Unfortunately, Chapter 1 is mostly Norwegian politics. I found this aspect of the book rather underwhelming the last time I read it. If you find it boring, skim. There will be more later, interwoven with the personal story of Kristin and Erlend, and we can't ignore it completely, but we can put as much or as little emphasis on it as you want.
-
I do have to mention before we leave this section, that when I read Kristin's journey to Nidaros, it reminded me of Moses leading the people to the promise land, where they would have renewed hope.
pg. 371 Kristin stood on Feginsbreakka and saw the city lying below her in ht golden sunlight. Beyond the river's broad shining curves lay brown houses with green turfed roofs, dark domes of leaves in the gardens, light-hued stone houses with pointed gables, churches that heaved up black shingled backs, and churches with dully gleaming leaden roofs. But above the green land, above the fair city, rose Christ's Church, so mighty, so gloriously shining, 'twas as though all things else lay prostrate at its feet. With the evening sun blazing full upon its breast and on the shining glass of its window, with towers and giddy spires and golden vanes, it stood pointing up into the bright summer heavens.
Quite overcome, sobbing, the young woman flung herself down before the cross by the wayside, where thousands of pilgrims had lain before her, thanking God for that helping hands were stretched out towards human souls on their journey through this fair and perilous world.
The bells were ringing to Vespers in churches and cloisters when Kristin came into the Christ's churchyard. She dared to glance for a moment up at the church's west from__then, blinded, she cast down her eyes. Human beings had never compasses this work of their own strength__God's spirit had worked in holy Oistein, and the builders of this house that came after him. Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven__now she understood the words. A reflection of the glory of God's kingdom witnessed in these stones that His will was all that was fair. Kristin trembled. Aye, well might God turn in wrath from all that was foul__from sin and shame and uncleanness.
Deuteronomy 34:1
Then Moses climbed Mount Nebo from the plains of Moab to the top of Pisgah, across from Jericho. There the LORD showed him the whole land--from Gilead to Dan,
Then I found this commentary that I felt fit perfectly with Kristin viewing the city below:
this view Moses had of the good land a little before his death may be an emblem of that sight believers have, by faith, of the heavenly glory, and which sometimes is the clearest when near to death; this sight they have not in the plains of Moab, in the low estate of nature, but in an exalted state of grace, upon and from off the rock of Christ, in the mountain of the church of God, the word and ordinances being often the means of it; it is a sight by faith, and is of the Lord, which he gives, strengthens, and increases, and sometimes grants more fully a little before death.
http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/34-1.htm
PatH., I did find this regarding Erlend also should be absolved: pg. 375 The young priest says to Kristin:
At first he scarce understood. She brought out the golden garland and held it toward him. "Oh, are you Kristin Lavransdatter, Erlend's wife, of Husaby__" He looked at her with a little wonder; her face was all swollen with weeping. "Aye, aye, your brother-in-law, Master Gunnulf, spoke of this, aye__"
"Your husband should be with you too, I trow, rightly. But it may be Gunnulf has some letter from him . . .
Seems like once again, others are cleaning up Erlend's messes, rather than he coming himself.
In my book Kristin's vision of Brother Edvin, says:
He smiled, and his smile was unspeakably tender__a little roguishly merry, just as when he lived on earth. Kristin wondered not at all. "Humble, happy full of hope and trust, she looked at him, awaiting that which he might say or do. The monk laughed and held up an old, heavy fur mitten towards her__then he hung it on the moonbeam and left it hanging there. And then he smiled still more, nodded to her, and melted away.
This reminded me of the song, "Swinging on a Star"
Would you like to swing on a star?
Carry moonbeams home in a jar?
And be better off than you are?
Or would you rather be a mule?
Of course it was not even known back in the 14th century. But it's a parody, meaning you are better off than something else.
I felt Brother Edvin seems to be happy with Kristin coming for absolution, and shows her there is new hope for her, and her baby. Kristin seems happy and at peace at this moment.
Okay, I am ready to move on to the first three chapters of Part II. Thanks for the heads up of this part being a bit underwhelming. I'll muddle through it.
-
I'm fine but lots to do - water in my garage - ah so - Son just trying to get to work sites in Houston much less even start the cleanup and then start all over - the Blanco surged at 32 feet in the 1981 flood and last they had was it had reached 44 feet and the surge took all the meters so they have no idea - it was over I-35 which is really high off the river - where I am the work done on Shoal Creek held so it held the rising rush till further down and actually broke through the retaining walls gushing right on down to Lady Bird Lake - the water coming off the Mesa in the school yards across the street from me left debris half way up the chain link fence on 'top' of the hill and of course the water engulfed the fence at the bottom - except for testing I bet most of the classes would be empty - they have closed schools or opened them late in all the surrounding school districts.
Well - enough - I will catch up - need a day or so - and yes, I was getting more and more upset reading how Kristin took on the guilt and brunt of man made decisions about sex tied to when a ceremony takes place that only assured the protective transfer of wealth and title - the ceremony was still not yet even offering any blessings to a couple, it was only during the council of Trent in 1547 that marriage was made a sacrament so all of this heaped on women - grrrrr - Erlend was right - he paid their dues - and his brother - wow - not so gentle is he compared Brother Edvin or a few others who show a kindness we prefer to associate with the clergy - well onward - started this next section last night before the electricity went out - sounded to me like it was a case of using a political issue to show the skills, strengths and alliances they each bring that is setting up the dynamics for the future.
Ok for now my political decision is where to get rid of my water soaked boxes that were on the floor of the garage - some filled with stuff for the Good Will and others with years of records that I planned on burning - waterlogged now - maybe just wait but then I am afraid the mildew would be rampant and there goes my allergies - and the grass - looks like I need a tractor to mow it.
-
heading
-
"Your husband should be with you too, I trow, rightly. But it may be Gunnulf has some letter from him . . .
I suspect the issue here is not penance, but transfer of property. Kristin is giving the Church a valuable crown, and it probably isn't her personal property.
Barb, I'm glad you're safe, even if waterlogged.
-
Yes, you could be right, but the fact he should be there and isn't, and let Kristin make this journey with the baby all by herself says something about him. I know I seem hard on Erlend, but the author seems to keep dropping these little bread crumbs of how he does not follow through with his responsibilities. She is keeping us on our toes.
Barb, Do we need to send an ark for you? I mean afterall, we have been discussing religion and now the rains won't stop. Stay safe! We just had horrible wind and rain earlier tonight, but all is well here.
-
I am under the impression that it was not Erland's choice for Kristin to go alone to Nidaros. On page 92 in Nunnally a conversation takes place between Erland and Gunnulf....."Gunnels was it necessary for you to compel her to do this? Was it necessary?"
-
Yes, he's pretty broken up by it, lying on the grass and sobbing. Gunnulf says to him: "Pray that He holds His hand over her during this journey when you can neither follow her nor protect her."
So, whether or not we think it's pretty harsh, going by herself was part of Kristin's penance.
-
I do not understand how Gunnels has the right or authority to deal out penance for Kristin - but then this whole section of the story just riled me to no end -
Brought back memories of so many down right arguments I had with Father Lynn, the Carmelite priest I had for two classes in Freshmen year high and again a class as a sophomore and one as a senior - always it was over the same issue - how can you punish a person for loving another - it is not right if the religion is based in love - oh and we would get right into it - he never budged and neither did I - at one point his argument was because the God given authority of men given because the sperm is active and the egg is passive and therefore, men had to take care of a women which means he had to be assured that the eggs of a women were under his protection - did not have yet in my understanding the word 'control' but instead with a thousand words, that I tend to use when I am outraged that is what he got from me - men simply wanted control of the eggs and therefore, the woman - god help us what I put that man through
But to my speechless gapping mouth recently, about 2 years ago while at Mary House for the monthly mass followed by dinner and discussion the whole issue of women as priests came up and I could not believe when I asked Father Rick, a Holy Cross priest, what the big deal was and he quietly, almost in a whisper says, because of a women's monthly and could I imagine a women having her monthly on the alter - oh oh oh - no hope - how - it is beyond me - I am still speechless - These are educated men - not dumb bunnies with only a 4 year degree as most parish priests - these are order priests with years and years of education before they are ordained - before Vatican II when the constitution for all orders were changed a Carmelite studied for 18 years before being ordained - oh oh oh - although I must say I did get some logic and legal church history from Father Lynn that I did not get from Father Rick.
Hardly know an organized religion, that at its roots is not chauvinistic - but then not all religious are like Gunnulf, filled with his self-righteousness declares guilt and makes up a penance than, goes off to another part of the world with nary a look back to support a so called sinner because by virtue of a harsh penance they are made into good humble obedient folks - until the next time when the cycle of guilt, penance, pay alms, declare your worthlessness, be humble and obedient, continuing a pattern for life - best part about the system, it was self perpetuating and did not require building a brick and mortar holding place for the guilty.
None of this religious expression is near what Meister Eckart (1260 – 1328) wrote and preached about goodness being the blessing of the 'gift' of grace and grace is the connection between our soul and God - no harsh brimstone from this mystic of Christianity.
A piece of me thinks Gunnulf was acting with no less revenge than a brother confused about his feelings for his sister-in-law as in the old religion of the Vikings.
-
Barb god help us what I put that man through
I think the church and the world need more people who question the status quo. Good for you.
I also questioned Gunnulf's feelings about Kristin and maybe jealously of Erland since he was the favorite.
-
Barb, I'm speechless too, in between bouts of laughter. Of course you realize that if you walk through the vineyard during your monthly that year's wine will be no good. And I think there's something about not drinking water out of a stream if you've walked over the bridge....
Barb and Halcyon, I agree, Gunnulf's feelings must be very complicated. The conversation that started out with "...was it necessary?" ends up with Gunnulf saying that when Erlend was near death their parents promised him (G) to the priesthood if Erlend would be spared. And he says that although mostly he was comfortable with his lot, he did have times of regret. And in spite of this he does love his brother.
Who actually set the penance for Kristin? She didn't formally confess to Gunnulf. She confessed to Sira Eiliv, her parish priest, and (p 382) "...he didn't dare give her the body of Christ. ...for the sin that she had committed...she would have to seek absolution from the archbishop."
-
Barb, I am cracking up at your post, although I can honestly see you having this heated discussion with your priests. I really don't have any issues with women not being priests. They have the holy orders of being nuns, and for me that is okay. My very good friend Sr. Myra gave herself the title Associate Pastor, she was also the principal of our Catholic school and the director of the CCD program. Barb, you do remind me of her. She and I decided our school needed a computer lab and set out to begin one. Neither she nor I knew the first thing about computers back then, but hey, that was not going to stop us two headstrong women. Within 5 years we had the best technology program in all the elementary Catholic schools in the city, and I was teaching high school teachers at our University, basic computer skills, and other area schools on how to begin a computer lab in their schools. We women can have a monthly, and STILL manage to do great things in the church and school.
Women were considered unclean during the menstrual cycle, you could not have anything unclean on the altar.
What the Bible says about Menstruation
Leviticus 15:19-30
And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even. And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean. And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she shall be unclean. Every bed whereon she lieth all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her separation: and whatsoever she sitteth upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her separation. And whosoever toucheth those things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness.
I think Gunnulf set it up for Kristin to go to Nidaros, for penance. He then contacted Sira Eiliv, if you remember he stated Erlend may have sent a letter, I'm guessing giving permission for Kristin to give the golden crown. But still, Erlend had NOT done penance for his sleeping with Kristin before they were wedded.
I just finished reading the first three chapters in Part II, and I have to tell you I am getting just a bit tired of Kristin's constant chastisement on herself. It's beginning to grind at me, no one can possibly be as sinless, or shameful of their sins, as she expects herself to be, unless she of course were a saint. These chapters annoyed me greatly. Erlend wants his young carefree Kristin back, is tired of her always being with the children, is cruel to the baby because he is sick and crying, and just wants to leave and get away, and is sneaking behind Kristin's back and selling off her parcels of land. The author throws in Orm dies, Kristin has a miscarriage, and the next thing you know she is having twins. Ughhh...
-
Yea, Erlend did do his penance - do not want to reread to find the words but, he had to do good works for I think it was a month, travel to visit the relic of St. Olaf and gave money to the church - he says something to his brother about his doing their penance and asks why now does Kristin have penance when the penance was done by him - all this because they were not legally married and now, after generations the old way of marriage, that exchange of words between them is not recognized - The only reason for the new traditions around marriage has to do with the transfer of wealth and property from bride to husband -
Seems to me the church is being shown to be as barbaric as the old religion or rather, with more compassion, people are people and regardless the God they recognize they can only bring to that quest for a connection to their God, their expression of living a 'good' life, they can only bring what they know - this time in history was filled with the unknown. Because biology and the earth sciences were not known the only control over their life and its fears were sayings, amulets, ritual behavior and submitting to a lot of physical brutality with no clue to the emotional damage they did to themselves and each other.
It became apparent in this next section that Erlend cannot read and so the only way the voices of someone like Meister Eckart would be known is if you lived near him and heard his sermons - there were not many like Meister Eckart or we would not be revering his spirituality in his writing to this day.
Also, Meister Eckart lived where High German was developed. He lived in the center of a dynamic intellectual culture, that included the oldest, traceable German literary history. Thuringia is one of the founding-places of the tradition of poetic drama, the religious re-enactment. In 1227, Ludwig IV had commissioned a passion play in Eisenach. Location, it is not near a wide river that Vikings could have found. Thuringia eastern border is where the Slovakian nations are located and it is north of the mountains of Bavaria. It is a gentle lush green land far different than the harsh, cold, isolated communities of Norway where the growing season was a short 2 maybe 3 months.
It is easy to understand how living in a lush green land it is easier to have a gentle outlook on life and that to me is the dichotomy of Gunnulf - he is helpful and kind to Kristin before and while she is having her child, acting as you would expect someone who lived in the cultured, lush green lands of Paris and Italy. But then, like a two sided coin he deems this harsh penance - it is one thing to be absolved with prayer, fasting, alms and entreating the blessings of the Bishop but another, the cruel punishment he inflicted - I am sorry but all that drama in the church on the floor, hysterically crying, asking for forgiveness, remarking about another woman in her presence , saying her penance and what not - it was shear exhaustion thats all - along with the pent up fear and loneliness of the second half of her journey. For what - so she can feel guilty for expressing her love for a man before some traditional ceremony that transfered her care and wealth to him. I still ask as I did 65 years ago, how did their expressing their love for each other hurt anyone. So her parents did it the right way and where did that get them.
Grrr I need to go on to the next section or I will never sleep tonight as I pace and churn over the ridiculous illogic thinking that stays with us down the centuries and is rearing its mighty head again. When you cannot control forces around you then - controool the women.
-
Barb,
I still ask as I did 65 years ago, how did their expressing their love for each other hurt anyone.
I have to say, if we all took this attitude, there would be no need for moral living, or religious teachings. In Genesis we are taught of self control. God has promised us a good life, if only we can follow His laws. Eve tempted Adam, just as Erlend tempted Kristin. Throughout the beginning of time, we have had "lust" causing people to have sex outside of marriage. Kristin and Erlend were not "in love" when they first had sex. He took advantage of her youth and innocence. He lacked self control with Eline, causing him to be in the state of sin. There are so many men like Erlend, who prey upon the young and innocence, for the pure pleasure of satisfying his own sexual needs. Imagine how many times a young girl is influenced, and feels over the moon, in love with a boyfriend before she actually does find her husband. If self control were not a moral issue, she could be having sex with every one of these so called, I can't live without you boyfriends. I had at least 8 boyfriends if not more, from my Junior High years to my actual marriage. Practicing self control, because I was a believer in my faith, to save myself for my husband, and yes, fear of pregnancy, and fear of my parents, kept me safe, even though I would have thought at least two of these guys would have been my Prince Charming, at the time.
God's intent for husband and wife to enjoy the act of sex was to share the union of marriage, vowing to remain faithful to one another. I wholeheartedly believe in the sacrament of marriage. Sex inside a marriage was also meant to precreate. Sex outside of marriage causes not only emotional and psychological problems, but it also creates issues that destroy the makeup of social life.
While practicality does not determine right from wrong, if the Bible's message on sex before marriage were obeyed, there would be far fewer sexually transmitted diseases, far fewer abortions, far fewer unwed mothers and unwanted pregnancies, and far fewer children growing up without both parents in their lives. Abstinence is God’s only policy when it comes to sex before marriage. Abstinence saves lives, protects babies, gives sexual relations the proper value, and, most importantly, honors God.
God got this right! I see so many young girls today, lost, strapped with a baby they are not ready for, crushed self esteem and self worth because they have had sex so many times with so many different guys they have lost who they are. Their moral compass is so off course they don't know where to turn. I am involved with a program called Heartbeat of Toledo, that is for young girls who can come and get pregnancy tests, we counsel and give them information on sexually transmitted diseases, abortion and how it medically and emotionally affect you years later, and we provide services to them throughout their pregnancy and after the baby is born. If you could only see how these girls are racked with fear, guilt, lack self worth and little education, it would break your heart, and believe me the baby Daddy is no where to be found. My best guess is he is off sleeping with the next girl, ruining her life. The faith teaches abstinence, and statistics show more young people are actually practicing it today, than in prior years. Girls need to realize, so called "love" can and will destroy your young life, by giving into sex before marriage.
Barb you ask, " how did their expressing their love for each other hurt anyone."
Not only did this hurt Kristin, but it has hurt her family, and others who love her, and yes Erlend's family and friends as well. How do you suppose Erlend's children born from adultery felt knowing their father slept with yet another woman, being unfaithful to their mother, refusing to marry her, and got Kristin pregnant before marriage?
Every action every individual makes has some type of affect on others, in some way or the other, good or bad. The whole break down of the family today, can be related to actions of lack of self control, be it loose sex, drugs, crime, domestic violence, etc. If Erlend truly loved Kristin, he would not have treated her as such, and caused her the emotional, spiritual, and physical pain she suffered from not resisting his temptations. Yes, she was as much at fault as he was, but......he was the more mature, older, experienced person here. Erlend in these chapters is showing a man of restlessness, lacking patience with his children and Kristin's constant illnesses, and her not being able to give him more attention. Hmmmm......sounds pretty much like today's world. Men want what they want, when they want it, and when it becomes an inconvenience they grow tired, bored and restless.
Sorry for my rant, I am just way too sensitive to sex outside of marriage, seeing what ramifications it actually does cause. I'm sorry your priests with ALL their teachings, could not give you this basic understanding of why it is the best way to live as a Christian, but then as a woman, mother, grandmother, sister, niece, aunt, Godmother, CCD teacher and sponsor for many Confirmation girls, living life and knowing how sex outside of marriage harms these females, I have the experience and knowledge, no priest would have. It goes against your moral, Christian values, it destroys the girls, and it destroys family and faith.
-
I still ask as I did 65 years ago, how did their expressing their love for each other hurt anyone.
Not only did this hurt Kristin, but it has hurt her family, and others who love her, and yes Erlend's family and friends as well.
Bellamarie, I don't understand your reasoning. Are you saying everyone/Kristin should follow the path their parents have laid out for them just so the parents and family will be happy? What about Kristin's happiness? Or any other child? You claim Erland and Kristin were not in love when they first made love. Maybe not but they did have an attraction to each other. Kristin had no attraction to Simon, didn't want him to touch her. And what about her parents? Also, they lived in a different time and it's unfair to apply the standards of today's church to them.
I think children should be taught to question, to be independent and to find their own happiness. I don't think that is selfish because if a person is unhappy everyone around that person will be affected. As far as sex before marriage there is birth control and teen-agers should be taught the consequences of having sex and not using protection.
-
Well, to answer your question Halcyon, first off...it is NOT my reasoning, I was speaking of what the Bible teaches, and I agree with. I did not say, everyone/Kristin should follow the path their parents have laid out for them just so the parents and family will be happy. Barb, asked how their actions hurt anyone, and I responded in how it did indeed hurt others.
I said, we should follow God's plans laid out for us as Christians. It is obvious we have birth control, and how is that working out? I think today's society much like Erlend and Kristin, lack self control, that results in consequences. Abstinence is God's way, and the most safest of all for everyone to prevent their risks of sexually transmitted diseases, unwanted pregnancies, abortions and ruining their young lives. Sex outside of marriage has indeed been proven to be the breakdown of family, and moral values. As a matter of fact the program I am involved with has shown a pattern that young girls are actually using abortion as a means of birth control. They have sex, get pregnant, and then abort multiple times, even knowing they could get free birth control from various clinics, without parental consent, within walking distance of their home. This is proving to destroy not only an unborn human life, but it indeed is destroying their own life. Girls have come in, admitting to how much it affected them years later.
Look at Kristin and Erlend. Has she been happy through all of this? Is Erlend happy? My assessment is they were proving they were going to be together no matter what, and who it hurt, but ultimately it cost Eline her life, and it is not seeming to be the marriage made in Heaven for either of them.
I respectfully disagree with those who feel "who will it hurt", I feel we should not ignore God's teachings and plans, for our own selfish moments of lust or happiness. I happen to trust in God's plan for me, and I trust He knows what path to guide me down with the teachings of my faith, to have lifetime happiness, rather than short lived moments of sneaking away having sex, in brothels, barns or attics. So far I have not seen where these have resulted in a marriage of happiness, nor has it given Kristin the love and peace she keeps praying for. If anything, her actions even after receiving absolution, seems to keep haunting her. Erlend continues to hurt her feelings with his lack of love, and respect for her.
I don't expect others to agree with me, in today's society the Christian faith is getting persecuted, demeaned and disintegrating for the mere fact of people wanting to live their lives their own ways, and I have heard so many say, "It's my life and I am not hurting anyone." Well, wrong! Everyone's actions does indeed affect others around them. All the unwanted babies, and aborted babies if they could talk, would say how it hurt them. God got it right as far as I am concerned.
When will Kristin ever find the happiness she so longs for? Maybe never.......
Halcyon, I think children should be taught to question, to be independent and to find their own happiness. I don't think that is selfish because if a person is unhappy everyone around that person will be affected.
The key word here is, "children" we as the adults/parents, with more knowledge, experience and teaching are to help guide them to a life of happiness. For my family, that meant God's teachings, as a faith family. I wish I had a dime for every time one of my three children, knew what was best for them from the time they could talk, til the day they walked down the aisle to be wed. I would be a rich woman. I agree in allowing them to question, be independent and find their happiness, but not at the expense of not parenting, sitting back and watching them go against their moral values, and Christian teaching/faith. I can happily say, all three are happily married, and living their faith filled lives. Life will never be perfect, we will always feel we know what is best, even when it causes others we love much unhappiness, while we are venturing out and away from the values and faith you were given to know. Whether my kids as grown ups are of the same Catholic faith our family holds, or another, I can say they made it through there roughest times by turning back to God, and their faith. And I do have to admit, I may have said to them once or twice, "You can get happy in the same face you got sad in." Sometimes, loving your child and guiding them means they will be unhappy, and their unhappiness is indeed yours as well, but I could never let them sway too far away from our faith and moral values, just to let them experience a few moments of happiness, that ultimately resulted in pain.
Kristin continues to hunger for peace and happiness, and I believe she will find her way, because her heart is filled with faith, and her love of God.
-
So far in this book nobody has what I would call a good marriage. The best is Lavrans and Ragnfrid, which has respect and companionship, though Ragnfrid didn't love Lavrans when they married, and when she came to love him, he couldn't give her the passion she needed.
Even Gunnulf says that if Kristin and Erlend hadn't broken laws and hurt others, their sleeping together wouldn't have been much of a sin. I wonder if a more sensible person than Erlend could have found a good way around their barriers.
-
Talking about her book, Undset said that Kristin's greatest sin was not having sex before marriage, but the sin of pride, which led to defiance of the rules she had learned as a child. Now she's obsessing over every tiny fault in herself, and Sira Eiliv tells her that this is the temptation of pride--she should just live her ordinary, good life and not dwell on things so much. Do you think that's why she's so obsessed with her sins?
-
PatH., It does not seem to matter to Kristin, what Gunnulf told her about their sleeping together not being so much a sin. Kristin is living with what she personally feels inside. She has her own sense of right and wrong. She has been absolved, and still she allows it to haunt her. I can understand Kristin's feelings. If you personally feel you have done something to break your relationship with God, no matter if the Pope absolves you, until YOU have made it right with yourself and God, it will not matter what others say. She has to learn to forgive herself. I'm not sure how she can do this. For me I had a particular battle, and confessing to my parish priests and our Bishop did not alter the fact I felt I had broken my relationship with God. Others saw it such a minor offense, but for me it was major, because it kept me from having a full relationship with God. I am happy to say my day of reuniting with God has come, and I could not be more overwhelmed with my love for Him. I am praying Kristin's day of atonement will come for her.
PatH., It could indeed be the sin of pride. Personally, I feel she is striving to get back to the relationship with God, she had before the sins of sex, and having a hand in Eline's death. Now, the daughter Margaret is living with them, and she can not find it in her heart to feel close to this little girl because she is a reminder of Eline, and what part she played in this girl not having a mother. Ughhh...that is a lot to deal with. A constant reminder, day after day. It's as if Satan himself has taken up residence in her home and heart.
Pat we were posting at the same time. ;)
-
Oh dear I am sorry you find my views on man made laws upsetting - we really have no idea what God says or wants on marriage - no one has ever had a conversation with him or her and reported back - there is a history of marriage practices that we bump into in this story - The history of marriage is male led and has little to do with love - we still have vestures of arranged marriages and among western royalty we saw the debacle because of an arranged marriage experienced by Lady Diana Spencer and Prince Charles.
Please, to better understand how theology and the laws of the church are agreed upon and see it is nothing but politics read What Happened at Vatican II by John W. O'Malley - there are other authors however, this book is written by a Jesuit Priest who has written other books and is not considered a rogue author by the conclave of Cardinals or the Pope. His copy of Four Cultures of the West is also good but to see how much of what is going on in the church is based on politics among men What Happened at Vatican II is a gold mine - other conclaves we can read about but since they took place so long ago in history it is a bit harder to make them feel real much less recognize the people involved.
You are very well versed in the Bible and by using it as your guide it is giving you much comfort and direction for your life - as you read you learn that unifying the Christian church was an important theme for Vatican II and other Christians put great store in the Bible - where as the Roman Catholic tradition because of the lack of ability by average readers to read in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, and without advanced education or for many any eduction the belief was a priest could interpret better the written word. I do remember how it was in the USA before WWII when only 5% of the people had a collage education and so it this tradition made sense to me.
As you know the church is not just the Bible - there are many church doctors and mystics who have contributed to the way we connect our soul with God and as you are aware, there are many local saints, who were revered because they had an ability to live their life in the way the people of the area understood, so the saint became a model of behavior that was easier to observe and understand by the local population -
All that is part of the fabric of the church. And then the early church, till folks like Henry the VIII and later Calvin and Luther equalized and increased the power of kings, the church was the governing body for most of Europe. The church is still based in the laws of certain kings. Vatican II attempted to 'right' some of the Medieval European prejudices and affects of power monger leadership from the past but, to erase the affects from Constantine would be to erase the governing body of the church.
All to say I do not want to turn this discussion into finding the 'right' way to agree on the various accepted interpretations wrapped in the Roman Catholic Church. My religious training was different than yours and no more 'right' than yours - it does lead me to question and to explore, to compare the words of church Doctors, Mystics, Saints and church Doctrine. I know that church doctrine is not Bible based - not to depreciate its value at all - it is a source of direction that the pastoral side of the church relies upon.
I often see a dichotomy between the insights of especially Mystics as compared to church tradition and church law - When it comes to love between man and his God as well as, love between each other we can see a progression that makes earlier behavior appear cruel - While there were some enacting these cruelties at the same time there were others preaching a more enlightened attitude of how to behave with compassion. To see to this day, in or out of the church, that law is developed as if all situations and people are the same leaving little room for understanding individual experiences much less growth in our ability to understand and more, people are content with this system I question.
When, during the time of our story there are other views, I look for the advantage to the story and the characters to which their views are acted upon or to which the character is reacting - as to my questioning Father Lynn and Father Rick I am/was not asking them to consider blasphemy or some Wicca viewpoint on life but rather the dichotomy within our belief system. My sister does philosophy that is based on deep questioning that came as a result of both of our early education supported questioning everything so that questioning and finding answers that are usually only more questions is part of our DNA to use today's idiom.
We were trained early that there are many traditions of worship and theologies active and approved within the church however, there is an official single theology that is presented to the world to represent the church and as long as anyone publicly publishes that is the boundary used to be approved by the department of the Curia in charge of education and according to subject matter the department dealing with the Propagation of the Faith.
For those among us who are not Catholic and are reading all this - here is a nice link to the structure of the Curia and the duties of each department.
http://www.catholic-pages.com/vatican/curia.asp
My questioning in this story of Kristin and Erlend is how these harsh punishments for breaking tradition, benefits the one giving the punishment since we see in the story others with similar authority acting differently and how does this behavior happen when at the same time in history we have others in the church saying things like....
You may call God love, you may call God goodness. But the best name for God is compassion. - Meister Eckhart
However, I am wondering if the reason for the huge difference in how these characters support or condemn is based on this quote also from Meister Eckhart.
The eye with which I see God is the same eye with which God sees me.
And then within the Bible there is this one that could explain this story of Kristin, Erlend and his brother -
Proverbs 17:17 “A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity.”
-
OK just read the concept that it is about pride that the author was developing and yet, we know that in the church especially among women and seen as the major concern of nuns while they were still living a convent life that pride was simply not being obedient - if folks like Hildagard Von Bingen or even St. Teresa of Avila were obedient they would not be icons to their expressing their love of God.
There was a strong practice of obedience in monasteries that continued much after the Middle Ages when it was rampant - from Stealing Obedience: Narratives of Agency and Identity in Later Anglo-Saxon England
Katherine O'Brien O'Keeffe looks at Benedictine monasticism through the writings of Ælfric, Anselm, Osbern of Canterbury, and Goscelin of Saint-Bertin, as well as liturgy, canon and civil law, chronicle, dialogue, and hagiography, to analyse the practice of obedience in the monastic context. Stealing Obedience brings a highly original approach to the study of Anglo-Saxon narratives of obedience in the adoption of religious identity.
and then a quick look at what Catherine of Sienna wrote - "Look at the first man and you will see the cause which destroyed the obedience imposed on him by Me, the Eternal Father. It was pride, which was produced by self-love, and desire to please his companion. This was the cause that deprived him of the perfection of obedience, giving him instead disobedience, depriving him of the life of grace, and slaying his innocence, wherefore he fell into impurity and great misery, and not only he, but the whole human race, as I said to you."
The question comes if we are each individuals with unique talents and unique ability to express those talents than not developing our agency is not keeping to the story of the woman who searched for her coin called a talent and told to increase the one to twelve - obediance is about bounderies and developing your own agency was and to many is still considered prideful.
And so I can see Undset developing this concept however, I am not sure about our suggesting the characters are right or wrong for their entanglement with what was called Pride - sure was not called prideful when the Vikings pushed their skill to find new lands and these are the forefathers to these characters.
-
Barb, I found nothing about your views or posts upsetting, I just respectfully tried to answer your lifelong question, you asked your priests who seemed not to be able to answer for you, which was:
I still ask as I did 65 years ago, how did their expressing their love for each other hurt anyone.
My post was showing how other people's actions always affect others, good or bad. Not sure what you saw differently.
Scripture does indeed tell us what God feels, because He guided the writers, through the Holy Spirit, and so having a conversation with God, would be in reading His word.
I do not see scripture as "man made laws." A Catholic is aware of the church's traditions, beliefs, and laws as well, so in knowing this and choosing to be a Catholic, you are agreeing to live within the faith and laws of the church. Man made or not, they are guided by the Holy Spirit. Yes, there is always the political side, but in essence, Catholics choose this because it is our faith based. If a person does not agree with the church's laws, then they have the choice, and free will to leave, and chose another faith that suits their views, or none at all. Kristin and Erlend have been raised by this faith, so it is by this faith they will be judged in their behaviors, and must do penance to heal their relationship with the church and God. It is obvious for Kristin, it is what she wants, she just has no idea how to forgive herself.
We both are well versed in the Catholic faith, and I respect your views, and did not intend to come over upset about anything. Maybe my passion for my own views, and faith came over strongly. I truly was trying to show how sex outside of marriage does indeed hurt others, as per your question.
These three chapters have really riled me up. I am getting frustrated with Kristin's constant attitude, and Erlend's lack of caring. I won't begin to seem to be knowledged in the church's laws back in the 14th century, and as interesting as they may be to some, I am trying to look at these two characters as your normal everyday Norse saga, people, which can be a challenge of it's own. The author has truly brought a new meaning to, the sin of pride, if indeed this is what she sees Kristin's constant anguish is all about. I say, like the priest told her......get over yourself, and get on with living your life. She and Erlend just could not live without each other, no matter who it hurt, yet it seems they can't live with each other happily, now that they have each other.
Mea culpa, mea culpa, grande mea culpa.....enough already!
-
OK I am not going to talk about the concept of the Bible and how you think it was written - does not match evidence that is taught in Catholic colleges today - but lets just keep to this story.
There is no evidence that either Kristin or Erlend read the Bible - Erlend could not read and there is no evidence that Kristin could read even Latin for that translation much less Greek much less Hebrew, Aramaic. The story is taking place in 1314 or there abouts - there was no translation other than Latin - most of the monks and priests in the story were not able to read the Bible because they too did not have the language ability needed. Educated Gunnulf may have been able to read the Bible.
As to the manner that marriage took place - Kristin and Erlend spoke the words to each other that were in keeping with the known old religion - this is a case of one group attempting to follow another tradition and the new group does not respect the old as the new religion labeled the old, pagan - that was pompous of the new Catholic Religion that was trying to persuade folks into practicing the new way. Kristin's parents, trying to look good among the social group they lived among but somehow they had to justify that they were good little boy and girl and married as their parents deemed regardless their personal happiness or individuality.
As we read we see Kristin caught in a cycle of self destruction that we could have compassion for her - the church through its harsh penance along with the church holding itself up as the way to behave in order to avoid the pain of life leaves Kristin in the bottom of a hole - she has no other religion to turn to since the old ways have been made emphatically clear to her they were not going to be accepted by anyone in her life with only her husband as a possible alley and the two of them as rebels would not allow their future children to have any life in the community.
She had been brought to her knees by the penance that now she must justify, as we all do when anything beyond the pale happens in our life - we blame ourselves. Where we may look for a way out of the hole she has been told that in so doing she is being prideful because as a victim of the hole she is doing what is considered acceptable to all but not to her soul and probably not to her God who did not mean for any of us to subject ourselves to being nothing more than a tool for the opinion of others. She is self destroying what is her own spirit because she loved and married from her own spirit and was punished for it.
No where in the Bible, except for the marriage at Canna that talks about the wedding reception, does it lay out the process used to first exchange goods and wealth from the women to the man at a betrothal ceremony - nor that a women is supposed to as a virgin take a ceremonial bath or wear a crown - the concept of exchanging vows only happened in front of a father till about the end of the fourteenth century - there is no church representative involved much less any verse from the bible offering a blessing at a marriage.
Today we cannot imagine marrying without love - sex has a different connotation today so that it being an expression of love is still a man made and modern (since the nineteenth century) expression that is not the church's definition of married love - Outside the Bible this is what the church says about marriage after it became a sacrament - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a7.htm (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a7.htm)
Kristin is a victim of a society that is justifying itself on their understanding of a new church that they hear and see conflicting examples of how to adhere to this new religion because the behavior of the very priestly leadership is not pure in heart or spirit - she has no way to assuage her fears about sickness, storms, death, child birth, possible physical deformities, bad crops, lack of rain, etc. etc. except through a spiritual belief and she is not going back to the old ways - the new religion exploited her for wanting her own self-identity also, because she wanted to experience a passion filled relationship that she did not even have the words to express -
I am thinking compassion is in order and to dig in so that we can feel what someone with no escape must feel - More, this is a time in history that cannot be compared to what we know and have at our finger tips now - we have the written word that we can read - we know how the physical body works and that the sky is not a bowl that leaks water - we do not use ritual in our life to chase away our fears that are nothing like the fears of Kristin and Erlend. Experiencing this story would be like being plunked down in the middle of the wilds of China or Mongolia and creating a life where our ability to read would be useless and our knowledge of the Bible would also be useless.
Nothing we have read except, to use the word Christian, cathedrals, abbot, monastery, priest is anything like the experience we know today - we certainly do not have penance that requires we wear a rough rope around our waist and walk barefoot 20 miles with an infant on our back, little food, no bedding and no pampers, to obtain the forgiveness of any sin regardless how horrendous. How many of us could even hike 20 miles with the proper shoes and equipment we take for granted.
We know soldiers that experience atrocities never get over them - they may hide them but they do not get over them - however, they, as holocaust survivors or even victims of sexual abuse have others to talk openly to and put their experience in some kind of perspective or at least they have someone who will listen to them - Kristin not only does not have that but is not even aware the abuse she experienced since it par for the course during this time in history.
Trying to live with that pounding knowledge that she not only did wrong but she is wrong is the same shame felt by victims of abuse who believe they accepted the abuse that they should have been able to stop - Kristin is acting exactly the same way - she has been filled with shame and it takes years if ever to bring yourself out of the shame with help much less isolated from help as she is as she is told it is her problem for trying to feel anything but complacent with her shame since that means she is prideful.
The definition by many for the Middle Ages is the Dark Age and this story helps us see just how dark to the human spirit this time was for the average person.
-
I won't debate any further scripture, Bible, laws, abuse, victimization, etc. You have your right to your feelings and I have mine. I am not sure I can trust who is teaching in the colleges today, to even consider the evidence they are proposing to students.
I don't see where anyone, or anything other than Kristin can help herself. She is a victim of her own doing.
Kristin chose the sin. Not only speaking of sex before marriage, but having a hand in Eline's death, which I find to be much more grave than anything else she has done.
If absolution is not enough for her, than I don't know what else will be. I don't blame the church, laws, parents, priests, the dark ages, etc., etc. She made her choices. She couldn't live without Erlend, she caved into her desires, allowed herself to be lured to brothels, barns and attics to be with this man she knew had sexual relations with a married woman, and had children by Eline, it is human nature.
I don't know how this author is going to bring peace or joy to Kristin, if she refuses to accept absolution, and forgive herself, other than through death. The church has shown compassion, her parents have forgiven her, priests have counseled her, the townsfolk have accepted her, even Erlend's own son Orm grew to love her, and his daughter Margaret lives with her, yet....Erlend continues to berate her, and that may very well be the crux to the reason she can not forgive herself. She knows she sacrificed much for him, and sees he has not proven to be worthy of her sacrifices.
She may be struggling with knowing she put her love of Erlend, before her love of God.
-
PatH., We have chapters 4 - 8 until Part III ERLEND NIKULAUSSON, the final part of The Mistress of Husaby. Are we ready to move on and read these chapters? How does everyone feel? Have you already read these chapters and waiting for us?
-
Good Morning Everyone,
I'm already reading Part III. Will we be reading the third book in June?
-
Yes, we need to move on to 4-8. We've surely said everything possible about Kristin's religious feelings here, and we can polish off whatever else we want to say today.
Halcyon, I thought we would continue on straight through the trilogy, as long as anybody wants to. It looks like we're down to 5 people, me, Barb, Bellamarie, Halcyon, StellaMaris. We can set our own timetable. Thoughts about speed, etc, would be welcomed.
-
PatH., Sounds great! I could not begin to stop, and not know how this trilogy ends. I'm up for any pace others are comfortable with.
Just a mention....in these last three chapters we learned, Orm, Lady Aashild, and Bjorn have all died, and Kristin had a miscarriage and then now just gave birth to twins. All in the matter of what four years? Oh my, at this rate they are going to fill that house before you know it. Erlend is complaining about her not having time for him with all the time she spends with the kids, who are sick all the time not to mention so is she. Ughh...
-
Yes, an event-filled time. I wonder what the sickness was that hit them all so hard and killed Orm? It sounds like measles. By the way, you realize that most of the time when someone says Kristin is ill, that's a euphemism for pregnant.
-
What really got to me was how her second child was taken from her and the wet nurse tried to become the child's mom that Kristin had to observe and then try to manipulate to get back her own child - I could not imagine - helping is one thing but trying to take on the role of a mother to someone's child and that someone lives in the same house - oh oh oh.
Interesting to read the relationship between Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Russia - have to look again at history but I think it is after this time that Denmark does take over Norway for several hundred years but the waring advancement of Russia onto Sweden and now Norway is something I want to know more about.
Looks like Erlend was given a serious charge and new position to protect the coastline of Norway.
-
A lot happens in the first three chapters. We see the feelings of Kristin and Erlend surging back and forth, unfortunately, often not in sync.
At the end of the first year of marriage, Kristin moves back in from the women’s house. Erlend is pretty busy, but in his element getting ready for the northern campaign. Nunnally, p 440: “Then Erlend took charge of the men called up for duty on the ships south of the fjord. He dashed around, riding or sailing, and he was busy with people who came to see him and letters that had to be sent. He was so young , and handsome, and so happy—the listless, dejected look that she had so often seen come over him in the past seemed to have been swept away. He sparkled with alertness, like the morning. He had little time left over for her now; but she grew dizzy and wild whenever he came near her with his smiling face and those adventure-loving eyes.
He goes off on business for the campaign, and “She was certain that in this Russian campaign Erlend would prove fit for something other than ruining his name and his property.”
He returns, finds she’s pregnant again, and says “I thought that when I finally had you, it would be like celebrating Christmas every day. But now it seems there will be mostly long periods of fasting.” Big mistake. She feels that he has stomped out the fire inside her.
-
Errand seems to have no filter between his brain and his mouth. Thinking aloud is not always good in a relationship. I understand what he means though...he wants Kristin to be his fellow adventurer, lover and friend before they settle into the routine of rearing children. Maybe not mature thinking but understandable to me.
-
Yes, it's understandable, and Kristin contributes by being touchy and holding grudges. I can't see the relationship ever running smoothly for long.
Continuing: everyone gets sick from measles or whatever it is. Orm dies, and Kristin falls ill, has a miscarriage, and almost dies. Kristin has lost the fire she felt, but in its place things are calm and good between them. She doesn't want to spoil the peace by talking to him about how he's wasting her property.
A man she meets at banquets tries to seduce her, and when she primly refuses, says "I don't understand...how Erlend ever managed to have his way with you." She says nothing, but the look in her eyes amazes him: "I thought that was only something they wrote about--in ballads."
Her life is a kind of seesaw between fiery passion and annoyance.
-
Her life is a kind of seesaw between fiery passion and annoyance. Reminds me of that phase in marriage when the fantasy of who someone is no longer holds and the glue between a couple is no longer passion - after you know both the high points that gave the relationship excitement and the low points that you observe living with someone before you have them worked out as simply what makes the whole of the other.
I think where it is awkward to hear Erlend's thoughts - they are typical of many guys, especially someone like Erlend whose childhood did not include a warm and happy household as his model - also, he is not an educated man - I am amazed the story teller allows us to get into his head at all rather than allowing us to deduce from his actions because this is Kristin's story with the author I would think freely giving us insight into her thoughts and feelings.
Interesting, I fell for it, I too wanted a happy here-after story or like Erlend said, Christmas that followed such a passionate beginning that was against all convention. A story that sorta kept the two of them against the conventional world. It looks like this is settling down into an intimate view of life without the fairy tale ending of 'and they lived happily ever-after'.
Makes me wonder if we have always lived with one foot in the past and the other in the present, that every century is a time of change from one set of beliefs, that are easy and comfortable, to another that is a struggle to adapt - maybe that is an ongoing struggle in life. I am seeing us today living with so many changes that what we knew as children and now, no longer holds water - recently saw how students learn addition and it is so beyond my understanding - and how parenting has really changed since my own days of parenting.
Major social change is what I am seeing as one of the theme's of this story - how they adapted to change as these characters have one foot in the old religion that still makes perfect sense, like putting numbers in a row, one under the other and adding one column at a time carrying the left hand number to the next column and now, in our story the characters are attempting to adapt to a new religion that even some of the representatives of that new religion are living in their own adaptation of what satisfies their comfort.
Erlend was given a large nation-saving task that puts him closer to the old ways and Kristin made fearful of her individual nature is adapting more of the ways ascribed by the new religion with her only comfort to also harken back to her childhood and judge the world around her, including Erlend, by those experiences.
Which only prompts me to see how we are not used to husbanding water or looking at ground water as our investment and how like wealth you never touch your investment only the income from that investment - trying to adapt that thinking to our practice of digging wells whenever or where-ever they were needed or using ground water as the engine of industry was how we prospered. Now learning and practicing collecting water on a large scale and paying for these home collections that can cost as much or more than digging a well is not happening quickly so that I can see how difficult it is for those like Erlend whose importance and value was measured in ways that does not husband the land or the servants.
-
“I thought that when I finally had you, it would be like celebrating Christmas every day. But now it seems there will be mostly long periods of fasting.”
Hmmmm....seems like the fact she was pregnant before the wedding gave up all his chances of Christmas every day, and her being his adventurer and lover. Erlend does not live in reality. He lives in a life of fantasy. He acts like it's her fault she is pregnant again, and again, and again, as if he has nothing to do with it.
Well, I finished chapters 4-8 and it seems the next generation is taking over. Changes have taken place, Kristin returns home to see changes not only in her home, but in her father's health. Ramborg is marrying Simon of all people, and Lavrans is thrilled he will be the one to be her husband, rather than Erlend be her guardian if she is not married when he dies. That speaks volumes of the fact Lavrans is never going to give Erlend his respect and love.
I have never felt there is to be a happily ever after for Kristin and Erlend, not because of them going against the will of her family, but because Erlend has proven time and again to be self serving, untrustworthy, impulsive, and reckless. He has a noble like position now, and yet he seems to be ready to throw in against Ingebjorg.
Erling Vidkunsson says, pg. 493 "Think twice before you speak, where you are going. And think, and think again twenty times, before you do aught__" "If 'tis so that you do, you who rule the roost here, then I marvel not that all things move but haltingly. But you need not be afraid," he yawned. "I__shall do naught, I trow. But 'tis grown a rare land to live in now, this of ours__"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingeborg_of_Norway
"The controversy around Ingeborg's second marriage and the potential succession of her son Haakon to the Norwegian throne are an important part of the plot of the novel Kristin Lavransdatter by Sigrid Undset."
http://www.thefullwiki.org/Ingeborg_of_Norway
The Scania affair
Ingeborg and Porse had the ambition to make the then Danish Scania a part of her possessions. In 1321, Ingeborg arranged a marriage with her daughter Euphemia and Albert II, Duke of Mecklenburg. The marriage was arranged with the terms that Mecklenburg, Saxony, Holstein, Rendsburg and Schleswig would assist Ingeborg in the conquest of Scania. This was approved by the council of Norway but not Sweden. To finance the invasion, Ingeborg took a loan from Stralsund with free trade in Sweden and Norway as security. When Ingeborg's forces under command of Porse invaded Scania in 1322-23, Mecklenburg betrayed her to Denmark and the alliance was broken.
Erlend is messing as Erling Vidkunsson refers to them as, "faithless folk" and I fear he is going to live to regret it.
-
These chapters had some poignant, tender, loving, and emotional moments between Lavrans and Kristin, and Lavrans and Ragnfrid. I can see why Undset got her award. This book is going to stay with me for a very long time.
pg. 498 To me it seems now 'tis not long since I myself was a boy__and yet is it many years since you were the little light-haired maid that ran about after me, wherever I might stand or go__you followed your father so lovingly__God reward you, my Kristin, for the joy I had of you__" "Aye__if He reward me as I rewarded you_" She sank on her knees before him, caught his wrists, and kissed the palms of his hands as she hid her weeping face in them. "Oh father, my dear father__no sooner was I a grown maid than I paid you for your love with the bittersweet sorrow__"
"Nay, nay, child; weep not so." He drew his hands loose, and lifted her up beside him, and they sat as before. "Much joy have I had of you, in these years too, Kristin. Fair and hopeful children have I seen growing up by your knee, a notable and understanding woman are you grown__and I have seen that more and more you have used yourself to seek help where it may best be had, when you were in any trouble. Kristin, my most precious gold, weep not so sorely. You may hurt him you bear under your belt," he whispered. "Nay, sorrow not so." But he could not check her weeping. Then he lifted his daughter up into his lap and sat her on his knee; now he had her even as when she was a little one__her arms around his neck and her face pressed to his shoulder.
pg. 499 "For I have seen it more and more with each year I have lived__no worthier work can there be for a human soul that has found grace conceive somewhat of God's loving_kindness, than to serve Him and watch and pray for those men whose sight is darkened by the shadow of the things of this world. Yet must I say, my Kristin__hard would it be for me to give up for God's sake the life I have lived on my farms and lands, with cares for earthly things and with worldly cheer__with your mother by my side, and with you my children. Therefore must a man suffer in patience, when he has begotten offspring of his body, that it scorch his heart if he lose them or the world go badly with them. God who gave them souls, owned them, and not I__"
pg. 500 Lavrans said softly: "Grieve no more for what you have to repent towards me, Kristin. But, remember it, when your children grow big, and you may deem that they bear them not towards you or towards their father as you might think was right. And remember then, too, what I said to you of my youth. Faithful is your love to them, I know it well; but you are hardest where you love the most, and I have marked that in these boys of yours dwells self-will enow," he said with a little smile.
pg. 501 He sprang from his horse and took his daughter in his arms, holding her in his embrace for the last time. Again and again he made the sign of the cross over her and commended her to the keeping of God and the holy saints. At last he said that now she must go.
This is truly what Kristin and her father has needed. They are like an extension of each other, they love deeply, and need each other's love. This may help Kristin find her peace and joy, or at least let go of all the guilt and shame and suffering she has held inside her for hurting her father, whom she loves so dearly. Lavrans is desperately trying not only to let her know he forgives her of all she feels she has done wrong with him, but he is trying to give her spiritual, parental guidance to help her with her own children and husband, since he knows he is dying.
Lavrans giving Ragnfrid his mother's gold ring, her knowing he had intended it to be buried on his finger was such a testament to his love for her.
pg. 503 "You said before, this ring you would take with you to the grave," she said in the same whisper. "None was to bear it after you were gone__" "Therefore must you never take it from off your hand, Ragnfrid__promise me that. I would not have any bear it after you__"
"I know not whether 'tis so that you have deemed I held Kristin dearer than you. True it is that she was my greatest joy and that she brought me my worst sorrow.__But you were mother to them all. It seems now to me that the worst of all will be to leave you, when I go hence. . . "Therefore must you never give my ring to any__not to either of our daughters even__but say that they must leave it on your hand."
pg. 506 Ragnfried Ivarsdatter thought__'twas like a new bridal night, and a strange bridal night. Happiness and unhappiness flowed together and lifted her up on waves so mighty that she felt within her now the first loosening of the roots of her soul__now had death's hand given her, too, a wench__the first time. "Speak to me, Lavrans," she prayed him softly. "I am so weary__" The man whispered: "Venite ad me, omnes qui laboratis et onerati estis. Ego reficiam vos, hath the Lord said." He passed an arm around her shoulders and drew her in to his side. They lay a little, cheek against cheek. Then she said softly: "Now have I prayed God's Mother to make for me this prayer, that I may not outlive you, my husband, many days." His lips and eyelashes touched her cheek in the darkness as lightly as the touch of butterflies' wings. "My Ragnfrid, my Ragnfrid__"
It is truly amazing how this story shows how couples can go through life loving each other, more than they ever realize, and only in the moments they realize it is coming to an end, are they able to connect on such a level as Lavrans and Ragnfrid finally have. Bittersweet.....
Translation of Lavrans Latin scripture words: Matthew 11:28 "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
-
It is truly amazing how this story shows how couples can go through life loving each other, more than they ever realize, and only in the moments they realize it is coming to an end, are they able to connect on such a level as Lavrans and Ragnfrid finally have. Bittersweet.....
It's bittersweet, and very moving indeed. I also find it a bit frustrating. I think it's a Scandinavian trait to be so closemouthed about feelings. Lavrans and Ragnfrid have one serious conversation, when Kristin is married, in which each reveals a lot to the other. The conversation changes both of them, but they don't talk to each other about it, simply act on their somewhat mistaken notions about what the other is feeling. They don't finally sort it out again until Lavrans is dying.
-
I agree, many things in this story has been frustrating for me, but it is the way people are even in the 21st century. Lack of communication, live in the same house as husband and wife, and never really express your feelings. I guess it's at least comforting to the both of them to sort it out before he dies. It reminds me of a quote:
“Too often they don't realize what they have until it's gone.
...they're too stubborn to say, 'Sorry, I was wrong'
they hurt the ones closest to their hearts,
and we let the most foolish things tear us apart” ― Marilyn Monroe
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/423418-too-often-they-don-t-realize-what-they-have-until-it-s
-
Spent time at the Trenckmann Memorial Library in the old German Free School in Austin that was opened in 1871 - Austin was originally a Norwegian town - so much so that after the Alamo when Mrs. Dickinson was allowed to leave and eventually married a German cabinet maker, because he was German they were not allowed to live in Austin - there were German and Czech communities all around Austin and around the time of the Civil War the Germans moved into Austin. All to say the Trenckmann is not only a private library where you do not borrow books but it houses both old and new Scandinavian and German books both in English and in the languages of Northern Europe.
All kinds of interesting bits - but this I thought was important for us - in a book entitled - Women in Old Norse Society - I copied out these bits -
The Old Norse writers of the thirteenth century bear the latest and fullest witness because of their identification with their German pagan forebears. Interpreted with caution, they can testify to the poetry and mythology of early Germanic peoples on the Continent as well as to the culture of their more recent Nordic relatives. The poetry and mythology presents divine female figures and identifies four image of human women: the warrior, the prophetess/sorceress, the revenger, and the inciter. Although the divine figures disappeared with the acceptance of Christianity, the human images survived for a millennium, not only in poetry but also in the prose of the heroic sagas and the sagas of Icelanders. The poetic images, however, rarely permit us to discern the daily social existence of Germanic women on the continent as well as in the north. The basic and ordinary problems pertaining to the lives of women, such as reproduction, marriage, and work, can be best examined by close reading of the sagas.
Using my words to sum up another explanation in this book he describes the mingling of pre-Christian with the Christian by using a reference to two types of rivers, both known and active in Nordic lands – there is a river that torrential rivers open from beneath glaciers that carry sediment, mud, gravel and stones that when reflected by the sun carry a milky-white sheen, in contrast to the rivers that carry water off the surface of mountains that are crystal clear, not reflecting and they appear as the black rivers. He uses this distinction to explain the mixture of Pagan and Christian in the north by suggestion the Pagan, native or ancient are represented in the clear streams whereas, the Christian, imported with medieval elements emerge in the white rivers.
In the chapter about Marriage, it says, marriage was basically a commercial contract, the so-called marriage by purchase, arranged between the groom and the father of the bride…Blessed by the Church and certainly not in conflict with Christian principles, the celebration of the engagement and the wedding in two steps, undoubtedly had Germanic roots…Pagan marriage was this arranged to ensure the orderly passing of property from one generation to the next…In short, the rules restricting marriage and sexual activity were prompted more by a practical concern to safeguard property from reproductive despoliation than by social consideration.
Interesting it is a wonder Erlend marries Kristin – "in 15 Sagas the illicit love visit appears more than twenty time and the thirteenth century authors of the saga were conscious of the ecclesiastical criticism of men’s sexual behavior." There is mention of two brothers known as ‘restless and improvident in love affairs and law suits.” And a young women friendly with several men finds herself pregnant and names one as the father. But using a ordeal performed under the auspices of a priest failed to prove his paternity thus producing a long lasting feud between families. To show a wife respect, a man sleeps with her every night and pays more than normal rate for a slave acquired for sexual purposes. Servant girls were between slave and freeborn women and were expected to be available for employer and his guests, releaving the daughter of this responsibility. Women took care of and as they aged depended upon her husband’s illegitimate children as freely as her own.
At first, churchmen attempted to impose gender equality among lay people in certain areas of human conduct, but they quickly singled out women for harsher punishment in sexual crimes. The discrimination, moreover, increased over the years…the new Christian law for Norway and Iceland imposed harsher fines on women than men. The rise of misogyny is particularly noticeable in liturgical matters where churchmen’s authority was unopposed.
Then a whole list of ways the church denies women the sacraments from, dying in childbirth she was denied the last rites...to...sick and unmarried women denied the sacraments - where as, a pagan woman was not considered capable of committing sexual crimes but was regarded as damaged property.
-
My search in the library was to look into the Saxon version of the Bible that Germanized the story of Jesus - it put the story not only in the vernacular of the Saxon but used Saxon references to retell the story and this version would have been available in Norway at the time of Kristin and Erlend since it was written in the 10th century. Example when Jesus is wrapped in swaddling clothes, included are many gifts of precious jewels that are in keeping the how special this child is to the world and heaven is described as a hillside field of lush green grass which reminds me of how Kristin describes her childhood home.
-
Barb, thanks for all the info on women in old Norse society. It fits in nicely with what we see in the book, and amplifies it.
The four roles of women amuse me--warrior, prophetess/sorceress, revenger, and inciter. You see a lot of the last two in the sagas. The women tend to hold grudges (so do the men) and egg their men on to even the score.
-
I don't see men of today as outspoken and meddlesome as the Norse saga men. It seems like they use the drinking ale to bicker & brawl.
-
Barb, Thank you for your continuing research. I find the history of the Church fascinating and wonder if you could recommend a basic book for me?
The four roles of women amuse me--warrior, prophetess/sorceress, revenger, and inciter.
Although I know nothing about the Sagas the roles of women insinuate that at one time Norse women were revered and powerful, more so than in Kristin's time.
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
April - June Book Club Online
Kristin Lavransdatter
by Sigrid Undset
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kirsten_lavransdatter/Heidal_Sel_Norway.jpg) |
This Nobel prize-winning book is the tumultuous story of the daughter of a 14th century Norwegian nobleman-farmer.
I loved it when I first read it decades ago, and now there’s a new translation which makes it even better.
|
Discussion Leader: PatH
-
Bellamarie, I find those scenes between Kristin and her sick father to be among the most moving in the book. Undset adored her father, and we're probably seeing her feelings here.
-
Halcyon I wish there was one basic book but alas bits of church history are found in many and then of those many, rooting out the ones that are playing fair and not selling their perspective - so much of Church history is wrapped up in the early groups like the Franks, Merovingians, Visigoths who held power for generations based on miraculous capabilities that could only be overpowered by new leaders if the new upstarts aligned themselves with God and so they had the Popes crown them to show they were in power by the authority of God - this was the beginning of the close association between Rome and the European powers - for the early connection the The Cambridge Illustrated History of Germany by Martin Kitchen is a good one to read
Constantine is the one who empowered the Church - prior to his conversion the Christ followers were still being thrown to the lions - Constantine not only brings with his conversion all those who live under his rule but he encourages and finances the first Ecumenical council, puts the cross on his standard and while I was researching the hatred for Jews prevalent in Europe I found that it seemed to have followed the Romans - how or what that was all about I have not continued to research however, did learn that when Constantine converted and changed his standard, his prior standard had a small Jewish symbol in the corner that he removed - it was also when the fires of Rome were blamed on the Jews since the fire started in the Jewish quarter - but greatest to the history of the Church, Constantine militarized the church with his army and all future European Kings continued the military arm of the church with their army - also the government system used in Rome was adopted hook line and sinker so that the Curia today runs exactly like the courts and government of the Roman Empire. A good one to read is The History of the Church: From Christ to Constantine by Eusebius and Andrew Louth
I think just read anything written by John W. O'Malley S.J. To see the politics of the church in action his book Vatican II is the best I have read - another that gives some good analysis is his book Four Cultures of the West
To get on the road of how various traditions were appropriated and the inaccuracies of the Bible and how all books written in the 2nd and 3rd centuries were called Bibles and what constituted the standard, the bar, that was used to include or exclude some of the Bibles - on and on, Bart D. Ehrman is good to read. He has great classroom series, an entire semester in The New Testament - he teaches Religion and Theology in the Chair of the Department of Religious Studies and the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill.
And on the History of the Popes, Professor Thomas Nobel of Notra Dame has an excellent CD package of 12 classes. Also, John O'Malley SJ has a book A History of the Popes: From Peter to the Present that like all his books is excellent.
As in all organizations to find the power follow the gold - with all its corruption a good one to read - God's Bankers: A History of Money and Power at the Vatican by Gerald Posner
And then Charlemagne was a key figure establishing the Holy Roman Empire and so nearly anything written about him will give you insight into the hows and whys - then to understand Luther it is good to first read how the Medici's held power in the Vatican.
As to the spiritual side and pastoral side of the church to me there is none better than Meister Eckhart - some like Thomas Aquinas and my sister, who does philosophy and was the Dean of the Philosophy department at St. Mary's on the Hudson cannot do without St. Anselm and my best friend Charlotte who passed in April could only breath deeply after reading Hildegarde Von Bingen who follows the rule of St. Benedict - for me I needed my fix, when life gives me another mountain to cross, by reading St. John of the Cross .
-
PatH., It is enlightening to know Undset was adoring of her father. I decided not to learn too much about this author, or reviews of the book, since I worried of spoilers, or things to sway my views before or while reading the trilogy. When reading those sections of Kristin and Lavrans, I simply teared up. Their father/daughter love relationship was so very tender. I grew up without knowing what it would have been to have my Daddy love me, and be there for me, since he was killed in a train/truck accident when I was only two years old. I was always told he loved his six daughters and one son as if the sun came up for us. The love Lavrans has shown Kristin throughout her entire life was what every girl would wish for.
I was so moved by the words and actions of Lavrans and Ragnfrid. The two of them at some point in their marriage grew to love each other more than they ever knew. Lavrans makes Ragnfrid understand that even though he had a very close loving relationship with Kristin, as his daughter, it was Ragnfrid he cherished for giving him all his children.
This author could not have done a better job in conveying real human, raw emotions in these chapters. I read them aloud to my hubby, and tears came to his eyes, and he said, "Wow, that is so sad, yet beautiful."
So, now Lavrans has had a funeral, fit for royalty. Erlend seems to be embarking on getting himself involved in a war, possibly siding with the wrong people. Where will this end up?
-
Thank you Barb. You've given me plenty to choose from.
-
Bellamarie, you are so right to avoid commentaries until you have actually read the book.
This section is full of raw emotions; best to be feeling strong when you start in on it.
There are several farewells here, and Undset is masterful at these scenes. But she's also good at understating. When Erlend has been stationed in the north for two years, and is about to go home, he and Gunnulf cross paths. Gunnulf is heading north, on his way to become a missionary at last. They talk, their conversation reflecting their deep love for each other, the jealousy over their parents' preference for Erlend, and the different paths they are taking. Then they go to bed.
The two brothers lay there, each on his own bench in the little hut, and let their thoughts lull them to sleep. A tiny ember smoldered in the hearth between them. Their thoughts took them farther and farther away from each other. And the following day one of them headed north and the other south.
I'm pretty sure this isn't the last time they see each other, but it might still be a kind of goodbye.
-
I like the relationship the brothers show. Even though Erlend was the favored son, they do seem to be able to accept each other for who they are.
Yes, it was chapters of goodbyes, not only with people, but with traditions, and hurt, vented up feelings. I saw honesty, closure and forgiveness as well.
Not to rush anyone, but are we ready to move on to Part III Erlend Nikulausson?
-
I've already moved on to Part III
-
We still have things to say about this section, but we can say them today, while everyone (except Halcyon) is reading. Let's take the first 4 chapters of part III, Erlend Nikulausson.
Barb, where are you in the book? Is this OK? I don't want to leave you behind.
-
For those of you who are reading Archer: there's an omission in Chapter 6 of Husaby, about 4 pages from the end. When he is about to leave for Denmark, Erlend is talking and Erling Vidkunssøn about the king:
"Aye, 'twas wisely done of you indeed, to part the boy from his mother," said Erlend darkly. "He is but a child yet--and already have we Norsemen cause to hold our heads high when we think of the King we have sworn fealty to--"
"Be still! said Erling Vidkunssøn, low and vehemently. "It--for sure it is untrue--"
The omitted paragraph explains what they are talking about:
But the other two could see from his face that he knew it was true. Although King Magnus Eirikssøn might still be a child, he had already been infected by a sin which was unseemly to mention among Christian men. A Swedish cleric, who had een assigned to guide his book learning while he was in Sweden, had led him astray in an unmentionable manner.
So the young king was homosexual.
-
shoot my entire post disappeared - I will catch up so go ahead - not much good can I share about what we just finished reading - I found the confession of Lavrans showing such a wasted life knowing that in God's eyes we are each unique with our own combination of skills, insight and outlook that in the name of man-made-traditions Lavrans lives up to those expectations that leave little room for him to fulfill his God given destiny -
I'm anxious to see how the political game plays out - it appears Erlend is not playing the game as the game players would prefer - we shall see if Erlend is oblivious to their agenda - or manipulating and the game players are not aware of what he is doing - or so true and loyal as a knight to the Norwegian King that he plays it straight with no thought of using his wits to affect secondary alliances.
I did like the bit where he points out to Kristin's dad that Kristin giving him a hard time was fine and it was only an expression of her frustrations - to be that content in your own skin and strength that you can inwardly smile when a wife is needling you sure is not Lavrans experience and yet, Lavrans ability to create a peaceful calm and productive household and farm is not Erlend's experience or skill set.
Erlend and Gunnulf the black river and the white river touch and fork one traveling south and the other north.
-
It's surprising Erlend was so tolerant of the needling, considering how out of line Kristin was. Later Lavrans told her he wouldn't have such rudeness in his house.
Poor Kristin, everything is rubbing her the wrong way. She sees that her father is good friends with Simon in a way he isn't with Erlend. Her children are poorly behaved, and when others criticize that, she takes it badly. Lavrans is kind and affectionate toward Erlend, but she sees it is "the same tolerant tenderness that Lavrans had always shown toward every living creature he felt was less able to take care of itself."
-
What about Simon? We learn more about him in this section. He really did fall in love with Kristin while they were betrothed. Disillusioned, he marries a rich widow. They eventually have a child; she dies from this, but is happy thinking she has secured her inheritance for Simon, but actually the child has died first. (This is an example of how carefully estates were tied up to ensure that property wasn't dissipated; if the child survives her, her estate goes to her husband, but if not, it reverts to her family.)
Why does Simon let himself be trapped into marrying Ramborg? He seems reluctant all along, but doesn't try to squelch her, and lets things slide into a betrothal.
-
Simon feels he is too old for Ramborg. He does not feel worthy of a young, innocent, maid's betrothal. He is doing everything to dissuade her. Then, Lavrans tells him he would be honored to have him as a son in law and the husband to his daughter. Simon has always been close to Lavrans. He is showing restraint, and respect, saying to wait a couple of years, the same way he did with Kritin, suggesting to Lavrans to send Kristin to the convent. Lavrans knows he is in poor health, he wants Simon to marry Ramborg, so Erlend will not end up being her guardian. Lavrans trusts Simon to protect his daughter, and the estate. He knows Erlend has already shown you can not trust him by sneaking and selling Kristin's parcels.
This does indeed show how much love and respect these two men have for each other. Ramborg has known Simon since a child, and is determined to be his wife. She shows a determination, much like Kristin did with wanting Erlend, only Ramborg and Simon are willing to be patient, where Kristin and Erlend went head first caring for no one's feelings but their own.
Now that Lavrans and Ragnfrid have passed on, it will be interesting to see how Erlend and Simon get along in protecting the family estate. Two men with entirely different personalities and values.
-
I wonder if Simon thought Ramborg would grow up to be Kristin like and even though he didn't win Kristin's hand he would have the closest thing to Kristin.
-
I wonder if Simon is even conscious of his own motives. I agree that Ramborg is as near to having Kristin as he can get, and that his closeness to Lavrans is a big factor. But he seems oddly reluctant. After a conversation with Ramborg when she's fourteen, he has a conversation with Lavrans. Afterward: "Then there's not much more to say, thought Simon. And yet it was strange--here he sat, a man who had never intended to come too close to any virtuous maiden or woman, and now he was bound on his honor to marry a girl he did not truly want."
He had all sorts of clues that Ramborg was after him, and all sorts of chances to discourage her, but didn't take any of them. So he's either very passive (which I don't think he is) or part of him is doing things he doesn't even realize he wants.
-
You've noticed the reappearance of the king of the mountains, or elf-king again, when Kristin looks once more at the golden spur left behind by the sons of a woman who had been lured away by him.
-
I think Simon did try to dissuade Ramborg. He tried it gently so as not to hurt her feelings, knowing she is so very young. He puts it off for two years, I felt hoping time would change her mind, but since Lavrans puts a bit of pressure on him, wanting him to be Ramborg's protector from Erlend being her guardian, Simon could not refuse Lavrans. Their marriage seems to be working out. As we have seen in the this story, many marriages do not rest on love alone. Seems to be the norm in the Norse sagas. I think Simon will always be smitten with Kristin. He will be there for her, and what better way to also watch over her than to be a family member.
Simon is proving so far to be a very respectful, caring, loyal person. He has all the qualities Lavrans would want in a son in law.
PatH., You've noticed the reappearance of the king of the mountains, or elf-king again, when Kristin looks once more at the golden spur left behind by the sons of a woman who had been lured away by him.
Yes, and for some reason it made me feel danger ahead!
-
Of all things I have been reading much about the brain and how our sense of self and our reaction to fear, anxiety, pleasure are an 5 levels - the social, physiological, neurological, cellular, and molecular - The book shows a diagram of how we act as a result of stimuli - We can take the long loop where we freeze for a second as we run the stimulation through our accumulated learning to choose the one we will use to act with - some take longer in that freeze mode but, for most of us living in an organized society it is normal to take that second.
Then there is the short cut where someone received a stimulation and acts in a nanosecond without thinking appropriate but only as if instinctive - this short cut action is vital for those in battle - it is how we train soldiers today to obey rooting out thinking - their life depends on the shortcut - however, it can become a lifetime habit and in today's society it shows itself when young men are bumped by another and take it as a personal offense pulling out their gun and shooting all in one swift step.
This difference is what I am seeing between Erlend and his family, the almost fortress house he lives in with his family that is the visual for a seaman warrior who certainly stays at sea for years at a time to fight those who would invade the borders - Where as Lavrans and all those from Kristin's childhood home live where they can take the long loop and since they engage their learning in their decisions they probably see the short root that Erlend takes as unfitting. However, Lavrans could not do the job Erlend does without loosing his life and the life of the men in his charge by utilizing the long loop to action just as Erlend is not able to run a farm and make himself indispensable guiding the daily life of his neighbors, tenants, slaves where as he can be a hail and good natured fellow secure in his strength, loyalty and good will for king and nobles - he does not access the long loop that would allow him to play the political games in which other nobles are engaged.
The bit about Kristin and her children tumbling in the living quarters at her father's, I read it as Kristin being put out by her family who did not accept her boys behavior that would be the natural training for boys who will grow up to take their father's place - she did not seem to scold them but contain them while in her father's house since those in her father's household showed such disapproval.
It is easy for us to imagine the long loop approach to life is superior but we forget each has its place. Today we are in a civilized world where our life is not at stake every day - we think it is funny when we see some folks that we laugh suggesting 'they put their mouth in gear before accessing their brain' and we still access the short loop for instance when hammering or falling, or working near machinery - we do not stop and think how best to fall or which way to pull our finger out of the way - we just do it - just as a soldier is trained to shoot and ask questions later (if they ever do) - and that is the life of Erlend and probably of all those vikings that with his long noble heritage would be his history affecting his childhood and adult lifestyle.
Both Kristin and Ramborg as y'all have mentioned act with short loop thinking unless there is cunning behind their action - not sure yet about Ramborg but the only cunning I can see for Kristin is she did not want to marry Simon and she did not want her life to be a commodity where her father and mother arranged her future. It appears that part of the long loop stimulus to action at this time in history in Norway means accessing learning that includes a lot of obeying - both obeying rules and the wishes of others.
In terms explaining our view and understanding of the world Erlend would probably fit in as a Materialist - Materialism, already championed in ancient times by Democritus, Epicurus , and Lucretius, holds that there is nothing in the world besides matter. Where as the other monism is Idealism that could also be a way to look at Erlend Idealists hold that nothing exists in the world except our conscious experiences. Which is the thinking of, Hegel, Schopenhauer, Husserl, and Bergson. I am inclined toward a Materialistic view for Erlend even if he does not take care of his property. Where as Lavrans would more likely fit as a Dualist - Dualists believe that there are two worlds: one of mind, and one of matter. René Descartes believed that there is an exchange between the material body and the immaterial soul similar to the Christian Church that is an important influence and learning for Lavrans.
I am seeing this story less and less of good versus bad but simply of two different approaches to life - what is sad is that Erlend respects and admires Lavrans but Lavrans does not see Erlend with respect and yet, Erlend and his kind keep Lavrans and Norway safe from the marauding soldiers attacking the land. As to Erlend taking advantage of Kristin as a girl - it appears she was as anxious as he was to share their passion for each other and maybe that is what scares Lavrans - he never could completely control Ragnfrid and he may see that an organized life style means the man is in control - certainly with their age difference and the mannerism of Simon he must inwardly see Simon would be controlling Ramborg. Which will be different than Kristin having an almost equal footing with Erlend as they both have equally important skills with very different outlets for their well-being.
-
Well as suspected, Erlend proves to be unfaithful to Kristin as he was with Eline, so Eline's words have come back to haunt Kristin. Erlend has now hit her twice and then blames her for his unfaithfulness. Kristin reminds me of women today, who know they are in a bad relationship, but can't seem to get out, even though she seems to have a bit of a flight plan in the back of her mind.
Now she blames herself: "She confessed to herself this evening__she herself had driven him to breach of his marriage-vows by her coldness and by her venomous words."
-
Wow, Barb, that's a very interesting analysis--makes a lot of sense. Lavrans is taking the long loop now, but he is capable of the short cut too. In his youth he was a king's retainer, and fought well, leading men and achieving renown. His body is covered with battle scars. Interestingly, he likes Erlend best when they are both in short cut mode. He first started to like Erlend when they were both franticly fighting the church fire.
Kristin certainly seems to be pretty much in short fuse mode.
-
This is an action-filled section, and I think no one will want to wait very long before going on. Erlend catches Margret behaving the same way he and Kristin did at the start, and he certainly doesn't take it well.
We knew it would happen sooner or later; Erlend is unfaithful to Kristin. He's angry at her hurtful words. How would you apportion the blame? Did anyone notice that Sunniva is the sister of Haftor, the man who flirted with Kristin and tried to seduce her? It seems to run in the family.
Now Erlend seems to be in serious trouble. What has happened, and how will he get out of it?
There is a beautiful scene near the end of chapter 4, starting with a lovely picture of Husaby, as Kristin is musing, and sees clearly what her life is about. What does she think? Is she right?
-
I am not surprised once Erlend realizes they are coming for him, he would immediately put Kristin, and his ten yr old son Gaute in danger, by asking her to hide papers in her bosom, and for Gaute to deliver the letters Ulf.
PatH., Did anyone notice that Sunniva is the sister of Haftor, the man who flirted with Kristin and tried to seduce her?
It would seem Sunniva is the one who snitched on Erlend. Was it a plot she and her brother had?
pg. 575 Tore shouted; "You should try first, Erlend, whether your mistresses have skill to read writing, before you run about to nightly trysts with secret letters in your waist-band! Ask you of Baard there who it was that warned us that you were hatching traitorous counsels against your King that you sworn troth to, and hold your place in fee from__"
I think Kristin has come to realize just how much she has given up, to be with Erlend:
pg. 579 Towards him she never grew wiser, never stronger. She might strive to seem, in her life with him too, capable and brave and strong and pious, but 'twas not true that she was so. Ever, ever had longing gnawed within her__the longing to be again his Kristin of the woods of Gerdarud. In those days she had been willing to do all that she knew was evil and sinful rather than lose him. To bind Erlend to her, she had given him all that was hers; her love and her body, her honour and her part in the salvation of her Lord. And she had given him what she could find to give that was not hers: her father's honour and his trust in his child; all that wise and prudent grown men had built up to safeguard a little maid in her nonage she had overturned; against their plans for the welfare and advancement of their race, against their hopes that their works would bear fruit when they themselves lay under the mould, she had set her love. Much more than her own life had she staked in the game, wherein the sole prize was Erlend Nikulausson's love.
pg. 580 She had chosen him herself. She had chosen him in a frenzy of love, and she had chosen anew each day of those hard years at home at Jorundgaard__chosen his wild reckless passion before her father's love that would not suffer the wind to blow urgently upon her. She had thrown away the lot her father had shaped for her, when he would have given her to the arms of a man who would surely have led her by the safest ways, and would have stooped down, to boot, to take away each little stone that she might have dashed her foot against. She had chosen to follow the other, who she knew way straying in perilous paths. Monks and priests had pointed the way of repentance and atonement to lead her home to peace__she had chosen turmoil rather than let slip her darling sin.
Unworthy is it to murmur at the lot one has chosen for oneself.__Holy Olav, help me that now I may not show me altogether unworthy of my father's love!
Once more Kristin breathed an Ave out into the evening glow. Hail Mary, full of grace! I pray thee but for none mercy, that see I now: Save Erlend, save my husband's life__!
I read this and wondered, does Erlend deserve her love and loyalty? He has treated her so badly, has been unfaithful to her, has put many people's lives in grave danger, not to mention his life, and his family's lives. Kristin has indeed put her love of Erlend, above her love of God. Where will this get her?
PatH., You are so correct, I don't think I can wait to read the next chapters to see what happens with Erlend. We can discuss these chapters while reading the next if you like. I am almost certain those who are still with us, may have read on ahead of us anyway.
-
PatH.,
We knew it would happen sooner or later; Erlend is unfaithful to Kristin. He's angry at her hurtful words. How would you apportion the blame?
Erlend has always blamed others for his bad choices, and bad behavior. All marriages have problems, speak hurtful words to each other. Kristin has had to bare the brunt of not only his hands striking her, but the incredible hurtful words he has said against her, and their children. Nothing gives Erlend the right to go off like a wounded puppy, and sleep with another woman. Now look what sleeping with Sunniva, has caused him. Sunniva, has been flirting with him and he likewise has been inappropriate in front of Kristin before they ever did finally sleep together. He dishonored Kristin in front of friends and family, and now she learns he has been a traitor to the King, which could result in his death. So will Kristin take on this blame, as she did Eline's death?
-
I presume everyone is reading on at this point. As soon as you're ready, we can add the remainder of Erlend Nikulaussøn to the conversation. That finishes off Book II.
-
Okay, I am now at the part where Simon has come to help Kristin, he has traveled with her to Oslo to hopefully meet with the King and be able to see Erlend.
pg. 605 When they came to Oslo, Simon learnt that the King would not come to Norway__he was to hold the Yule_tide feast at Stockholm, it seemed. Erlend was in the castle at Akersnes; the Governor of the castle was away, so that in the meantime 'twas not possible for any of them to see the prisoner. But the Under-Treasurer, Olave Kyrning, promised to let Erlend know they were in the city. Olav showed much friendliness toward Simon and Kristin, for his brother was wedded to Ramborg Aasmundsdatter of Skog, so that counted him a far-off kinsman of Lavrans' daughters.
With the family and respect of Lavrans and Simon, hopefully Kristin will get to find something out with all her travels.
-
Most of the people seem to be related to each other one way or another. It was a big problem when it came to finding a spouse; third cousins or closer couldn't marry. When Simon and Ramborg marry: "It was not often that two noble children from the same district were married--when all the branches of the lineage were studied, it was often found that the kinship was too close."
-
I only have 36 more pages to read before the end of Erlend Nikulausson. I will probably finish that up today, since I am home alone, and the temps are cooler than normal here. So, good day to read.
-
Much more than her own life had she staked in the game, wherein the sole prize was Erlend Nikulausson's love.
Look what comes next:
And she had won. She had known from the first time he kissed her in the garden of Hofvin until he kissed her today in the little house, before he was escorted from his home as a prisoner--Erlend loved her as dearly as his own life. And if he had not counseled her well, she had known from the first moment she met him how he counseled himself. If he had not treated her well, he had nonetheless treated her better than he did himself.
-
We have three people who muse over their life choices and take responsibility for them.
Fru Ashild ended her days in poverty because of her choice, but claimed to be satisfied with her bargain, saying she had enjoyed drinking her fine wine, and can't complain that now all that's left is sour milk. (We don't know how she felt when her husband killed her and then himself.)
Kristin says "It was shameful to complain about the fate she had chosen herself"
Does she regret it? I think only partially. Her whole monologue here is full of her feeling, still strong, for Erlend. She regrets the downside of her choice, but accepts responsibility.
Lavrans was attracted to the Church as a young man, but the glitter of the world was too much for him, and he chose war, then marriage and family. At the end of his life he feels that the highest good you can do is to serve God, but I don't think he would change his choice, which was also good. I think his regret is only the wistfulness anyone might feel over the road not taken.
The all have in common the feeling that when you have made a choice you are responsible for it, and must live up honorably to its demands.
What do the rest of you think?
-
Yes, lovely - they are as satisfied with their life as their character allows them to be - I am thinking when you follow your own heart there are fewer regrets and where Lavrans bumbled along he did well with each experience but it does sound like he obeyed what was expected of him - Erlend would probably have been better if he had lived a couple of hundred years earlier - Kristin seems to me to be the bridge that represented the time in history for Norway - I've had all kinds of lunch and dinner appointments so little chance to post - hopefully tonight -
-
Oh dear, after reading the last chapters, I am so furious!
Simon leaves his pregnant wife to help Kristin hopefully free Erlend. Kristin has left all her children behind including her little baby, to try to beg for Erlend's life. Simon finally even convinces Erling Vidkunsson to come with him to plead to the King for Erlend's release, possibly putting himself, his family and many others at risk, and finally, the King agrees to release Erlend. How does Erlend behave for a man who almost lost his life, and how does he show his gratitude?
pg. 639 They all sat there and listened to Erlend and chimed in with him, and he grew more and more like himself as he had ever been, wild and reckless. _______________ Then the door opened and Munan Baardsson stepped in. "Last came the great bull himself!" shouted Erlend, laughing, and leapt up to meet him. "Help us God and Mary Virgin__I believe you care not a straw, Erlend," said Munan in vexation. "Aye, deem you, then, it would help aught to whimper and sorrow now, kinsmen?" "Never have I seen the like of you__all your welfare have you cast away__" "Aye__for I was never the kind to go unbreeched to hell, to save my breeches from the burning," said Erlend, and Kristin laughed softly and dizzily.
Oh, all this was folly__her mind was set on having her own way, and she heeded naught else.
"Aye, you think, I trow you were the man of Regent of the realm," said Munan scornfully. "Nay, surely you know we had meant that place for you," laughed Erlend. "In God's name, heed your tongue, man__" The others laughed.
pg. 640 Erlend came over and touched Simon's shoulder: "Are you asleep, brother-in-law?" Simon looked up. The other stood before him with a goblet in his hand. "Come drink with me, Simon. You I have to thank most o all that I came off with my life__and, such as it is, 'tis dear to me, lad! You stood by me like a brother__had you not been my brother-in-law, I trow I had lost my head for sure.__And then could you have wed my wisow__" Simon sprang up. A moment the two stood looking at each other__Erlend grew white and sobered, his lips parted in a gasp. __With his clenched fist Simon struck the goblet out of the other's hand__the mead splashed on the floor. Then he turned and went out of the room.
This entire section after Erlend is released just made me so angry. Here so many have put their lives on the line to save Erlend, Kristin used all her favors on people she knew cared very much for her, and now that Erlend is free, and the two are back with each other, it is as if they are back to their selfish ways. Granted, Simon wanted to help as much as possible because he still loves Kristin, and would do anything for her, and now he realizes what he has done. He has put her right back in the arms of a reckless, selfish fool.
Erlend and Kristin are not ahead of their times, it has been since the beginning of time man and woman have rebelled against right and wrong, against God's laws, against their families, and their nations. Eve tempted Adam to rebel against God in the book of Genesis, eating from the tree of life. Adam and Eve, Erlend and Kristin, all have committed selfish acts, not caring what the consequences would bring.
I fear there will indeed be consequences for Kristin and Erlend, just as there were for Adam and Eve. They can enjoy their folly for now.
-
A quote from a book about writing -
"What makes for good writing is the effect it has on the mind and the heart of the reader.
If you want to be a good writer, you must be able to come up with compelling ideas. You must be able to recognize ideas that are intellectually and emotionally engaging, ideas that will arrest and charge up your readers and make them think, "That's good! I never thought of that before!"
It appears that Sigrid Undset has emotionally engaged us with compelling characters - what a wonderful window she gives us to the early fourteenth century in Norway.
-
I'm going to backtrack to the beginning of this section, because I've kind of made sense of the politics, and I want to get it down before it fades. Some of this is in footnotes in Nunnally, some in Archer, and some from my encyclopedia.
Background: in the hundred years before the book takes place, Norway had a string of political coups or attempted coups, some of them involving the "birchlegs" (birkebeiner), many of whom were commoners, not nobles. The birchlegs were responsible for crowning king Sverre (ruled 1184-1202) and secretly raising Sverre's grandson, who then defeated Earl Skule, to become Haakon IV, ruling from 1217-63.
Under Haakon IV and his son, Magnus VI, Norway enjoyed a cultural and economic golden age, the structure of the nobility was changed and weakened, and the power of the throne increased. Some of the birchlegs were allowed to marry into the nobility, starting new noble families. Simon's family was among these.
Situation in the book: The king's mother, Lady Ingebjorg, is the daughter of Haakon V, (son of Magnus VI). When Haakon dies, Ingebjorg's son becomes king at age 3. This is Magnus VII, the king in the book, king of both Norway and Sweden. At first Ingebjorg rules as regent, but nobody is happy with her machinations, and she is pushed out. There are now different regents for the two countries: in Norway it's Erling Vidkunsson, the character in the book. King Magnus is declared of age when he is 16, but he neglects Norway, leaving it without a workable government. Erling Vidkunsson leads a modest revolt, designed to get improvement in the government, and this is settled peaceably. All of the above really happened.
Erlend's plot: At last in this section we learn what Erlend is up to. He wants to bring Ingebjorg's son by her second husband (hence still a descendent of Haakon and of royal blood) to Norway, and persuade or coerce Magnus into letting his half-brother become king of Norway, leaving Magnus as king of Sweden, where he spends all his time anyway. Erlend says he wants to do this peaceably, which might even be so; the people are quite dissatisfied with a lousy government and with being taxed to death for Swedish expenses, so they might be talked into demanding an abdication.
We don't find out who many of the co-plotters are, but one who gets caught is Haftor, the brother of Sunniva, the woman who betrayed the plot. Haftor kills himself in prison.
This plot is fictitious, but it's believable. The Norwegians actually did kick Magnus out less than 10 years later, in 1343, in favor of his child son Haakon. (They seem to take turns being Haakons and Magnuses.)
-
Thanks PatH., for breaking this down, in simple terms. I read about this, and posted links but it was quite lengthy and could lose a person's interest.
We know Erling Vidkunsson, was aware of what Erlend was up to, if not even a part of the coup, this is why he does not want to go with Simon to plead Erlend case to be released. In my earlier post:
Erling Vidkunsson says to Erlend, pg. 493 "Think twice before you speak, where you are going. And think, and think again twenty times, before you do aught__" "If 'tis so that you do, you who rule the roost here, then I marvel not that all things move but haltingly. But you need not be afraid," he yawned. "I__shall do naught, I trow. But 'tis grown a rare land to live in now, this of ours__"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingeborg_of_Norway
"The controversy around Ingeborg's second marriage and the potential succession of her son Haakon to the Norwegian throne are an important part of the plot of the novel Kristin Lavransdatter by Sigrid Undset."
http://www.thefullwiki.org/Ingeborg_of_Norway
The Scania affair
Ingeborg and Porse had the ambition to make the then Danish Scania a part of her possessions. In 1321, Ingeborg arranged a marriage with her daughter Euphemia and Albert II, Duke of Mecklenburg. The marriage was arranged with the terms that Mecklenburg, Saxony, Holstein, Rendsburg and Schleswig would assist Ingeborg in the conquest of Scania. This was approved by the council of Norway but not Sweden. To finance the invasion, Ingeborg took a loan from Stralsund with free trade in Sweden and Norway as security. When Ingeborg's forces under command of Porse invaded Scania in 1322-23, Mecklenburg betrayed her to Denmark and the alliance was broken.
I have to wonder how many years it took Undset to write this book. She has covered so many important topics from religion, politics, Norse saga, tradition, family, witchcraft, laws, inheritances, property, classes of people, etc., etc. It is truly mind boggling how she has put together an incredible story set in the 14th century, and covered so much. I am in awe of her talent.
Barb, I love those two quotes you chose.
One of my favorite quotes is: "Good writing is suppose to evoke sensation in the reader. Not the fact that it is raining. But the feeling of being rained upon." E. L. Doctorow
This book has surely sparked quite a bit of emotion from me!
-
This book has surely sparked quite a bit of emotion from me!
I think it has from all of us. And there's a lot of emotion in this section. I'll start with Kristin. Her husband is dragged off to prison, and she has no idea of what's going on, or how serious the charges are. She gives her children into the care of others, and goes to Nidaros. This was very hard for her to do, but she felt it was necessary, and she was probably right. Someone had to fight to free him, and she would need to gather allies to do this. She would be busy, and might even be in danger. She couldn’t bring children into danger, and she knew herself well enough to know that she would be paying too much attention to them to do what she had to. Then there was her marriage. If Erlend was condemned to death, all that she would have left would be the visits in prison, and she couldn’t waste that.
More later.
-
Well, I suppose it is so that Kristin had to go try to save Erlend, and of course she would need the help and support of many who could go before the king to plead his case. I just don't know that Erlend was worthy of all that was done for him. Once again others cleaned up his mess, and he laughs and jokes about it, and does not even begin to realize what all they went through for him. I just am never going to be an Erlend fan, he is so immature, selfish, and self serving. He puts himself, his family, friends and townspeople in harm's way, hoping to one day be back in the grace of nobleness.
Erlend and Kristin live their lives without caring how it affects others around them. Have you noticed she is no longer lamenting? The author has somewhat turned away from the faith, and turned to nobility. This is fitting in these chapters since it is all about Erlend.
Is it even possible for Erlend to ever win back favor with the nobles and King? He is realizing how he has lived his life has truly made him an outcast from those he so wishes to be a part of. He will never be happy being a farmer like Lavrans and Simon. He knows Simon loves Kristin, and he also knows Kristin turns to Simon in her times of need, and these times seem to be when Erlend has done something to cause her so much strife in her life.
I seriously feel Erlend is beyond really loving anyone but himself. He takes what he wants, when he wants it, and gives no respect to anyone, not even the King.
-
I don't think Erlend was worthy of all that either, but Kristin does, and it's her husband, so her call what she does. He's definitely one of those who eat up other people without even realizing it.
They're very touching in the prison visits after he has been condemned, and they don't know if he can be saved. Every time the guard turns his back, they hold each other tight, crying, holding tight to each precious moment, because they may only have a few of them left.
I hadn't noticed the no more lamenting; have to think about that.
In this story of the plot, Undset is not only moving the story forward, she is saying things she wants to about the Norwegian character, how at that time they were more personally independent and concerned with fairness to the individual than much of Europe--a point that doesn't particularly resonate with a modern American.
-
Have you noticed that when Kristin and Erlend are in a crisis they are at their best, but when they are at home raising their kids, having a normal life they are the most at odds with each other? It seems this couple likes the fight it takes to stay together. Can she ever forgive him of how cruel he treats her. Remember before he was arrested they were having a huge argument, her dredging up the past hurts and words.
Yes, I have noticed how the author is moving things along now.
Not to rush, but are we ready to go into the next book The Cross Part One Kinship's Dues? We can always continue to discuss these last chapters as well.
-
Yes, I was just coming in to suggest we move on. Should we take The Cross in the same size chunks we have been, or should we double them, and do a whole book at a time?
Have you noticed that when Kristin and Erlend are in a crisis they are at their best, but when they are at home raising their kids, having a normal life they are the most at odds with each other?
Yes, it's striking, isn't it? In her inner dialogue at the end of chapter 4, Kristin thinks about how irritable and unforgiving she is with him "...she knew she wasn't usually narrow-minded, but with him she was."
And once he's arrested, she immediately shifts into a completely different mode.
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
April - June Book Club Online
Kristin Lavransdatter
by Sigrid Undset
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kirsten_lavransdatter/Heidal_Sel_Norway.jpg) |
This Nobel prize-winning book is the tumultuous story of the daughter of a 14th century Norwegian nobleman-farmer.
I loved it when I first read it decades ago, and now there’s a new translation which makes it even better.
|
Discussion Leader: PatH
-
Wow - we may have missed the war of law and land going on that was showing itself in the first book and the first half of this second book - been reading from From Viking Stronghold to Christian Kingdom: State Formation in Norway - and other history sites including the wonderful one from Fordham University - Evidently at this time in history in Norway there was a real tug of war going on between the National Law and the Old Christian Law and the newer version of the Christian Law - on the surface it sounds simple but it affected taxes, land holdings, the military, Alliances between nations and trade alliances (that include nations we do not know today like Novgorod that only later became part of Russia) and the biggie, who heard a court case and what law was to be applied in these court cases.
It seems the church owned 40% of all the land in Norway and if you were essentially a tenant on church land you paid your taxes to the Church and were subject to the newer version of Christian Law - remember early on how Lavrans takes Kristin, a young child at the time, with him to visit I think it was the Cathedral where he not only pays his taxes but he goes into a private room for confession leaving Kristin on the stairwell where she meets a monk who befriends her - That whole scene sets it up that Lavrans is living on Church land and his reference to law would be church law that was in the cross roads of Old Christian Law and the new, more directly from the Pope and recent Ecumenical Councils and why Gunnulf believes he has jurisdiction over Kristin's soul - and then his going North for the church, at the time the Church is attempting to increase its power in Norway by claiming more land and thus more taxes and more legal authority.
Where as at this time there is only 20 families with ties to the crown and they along with the crown own two thirds of the remaining 60% with peasants owning the other third of that 60%. They had put first the National law but this time in history the National Law and Old Church Law are attempting to share authority however, there are two separate courts using separate laws and the Barons use the separation to their advantage by choosing the court that is going to give them the best outcome.
I forgot the name of the designation that Erlend receives that is similar to his father - warden or something - anyhow these designations were not automatically passed from Father to Son and there are only two families in all of Norway that had passed on designations, one for 8 generations and the other for 7 generations.
There are two changes taking place that is part of the this new support of Margaret and her son and the confluence of Sweden, Denmark and Norway - it seems that in the preceding century the Cistercians find a formula for great land and farming success that becomes a blueprint for worldly financial success. Rejecting the riches of cities and of fertile plains, they settle on the edges of cultivated life where land is easily available. With no pay to workers (the monks) and an architectural plan different than the Carthusian, where each monk has an individual cell and therefore growth is limited to the number of monks housed in the abbey the Cictercians plan housed as many as 700 compared to about 35 for the Carthusians - the Cictercians took on more and more land and made their farms so productive they were not only wealthy affecting banking but an economic boon for Europe that affected trade, so that the German federation of trade and shipping towns spread between the Baltics to Spain also became wealthy. (An aside, all this wealth and newly formed banking system to handle it set Christians and Jews against each other since the Jews were the bankers before this time)
And so not only do we see national interests scrambling to access this wealth there is increasing conflict between Church Law and the laws of Kings. In the case of Norway we have Old Church Law that was open to men having concubines so much so that within some of the old Churches in naves or beneath the floor of the alter are places set aside for the burial of the children a Barron or the King or the Bishops would have with their mistresses. This practice was only stopped with the 8th or 9th Ecumenical Council in Constantinople affecting the new Church Law in Norway that affected most directly those who farmed on church owned land.
We really have to look at this book as analyzing themes and characters showing us how the history of the time played out among individuals - regardless that some of the ways of life are more easily understood because they are similar to how we live today this was a very chaotic time where major changes were taking place economically and belief systems were being changed not by the will of the people but by the force of laws that were not consistent even in the same towns - the book indicated that what was happening in Norway was happening all over Europe but Norway had more documentation preserved to examine the changes -
Evidently what really made the change was the Black Death that takes a third of the people in Norway where it reaches the shores with a Ghost ship of wool that floats into Bergen and every sailor aboard is dead. However, with the short summers (spring onto summer is when the plague was most active and contagious) Norway does not experience the repetitive onslaughts of the disease that kills half of Europe - During the early stages of the epidemic a single Pope is chosen and he returns to Rome and the church is able to control more and more of Europe's vacated land again, much as it did when Charlemagne was in power, bringing about more influence from Church Law than National Laws till even the excesses in Rome that followed the excesses of lifestyle in Avignon was too much and the Reformation was the cure all as Kings in every affected nation, blunder and strip not only legal authority but land, buildings, schools, and art killing tens of thousands of Christians in addition to the clergy.
The Reformation takes place after our story that is featuring the characters, Kristin and Erlend. Their story appears to be setting the stage, step by step for how the Church became powerful and how Church influence affected people and the lead up to how the three Nordic nations were entwined as one, using the characters in this story to illustrate daily life.
-
I can see Kristin as the symbol of Norway that of course she would rescue Erlend, who represents the Viking history and National Law and Land ownership that puts him with the Barons and the King or Queen of Norway versus those who are living and farming Church Land which the church hopes to influence the laws of Norway - however, Norway is both and therefore Kristin is saving both herself and like a good Christin would help those in need and by helping to free Erlend, they can influence together their children - the future of Norway.
-
PatH., I'm okay with doubling them, and do a whole book at a time. The first book, The Cross Part One Kinship's Dues is about 100 pages, which I feel I can handle if everyone else is okay with it. Things are at a pretty fast pace in the book, and we can always continue discussing as we read.
Barb, Wow - we may have missed the war of law and land going on that was showing itself in the first book and the first half of this second book
We can see the changes that are trying to occur in the politics and church, law and land, but even though some of the people were willing to hang their trust with Erlend in his coup to take over the King, they certainly were not ready to be known, once he was arrested. No one was willing to show up to plead his case. Kristin had to do all she could because that is the person she is. She is at her best in a crisis, and sad to say, Erlend has certainly given her many of them to tackle. Kristin is contented in living in Jorundgaard, she wants her seven sons to know how to farm, she believes in a hard days work, she wants her sons to be happy with living in her world she grew up in, with faith and family, she does not strive for nobleness or politics for them, she is proud of who Lavrans was and what he represented, and would be proud for her sons to live this same life, unfortunately Erlend wants to live in a fantasy world, thinking he or his sons, are going to one day become noble. Because of all his past actions, he has pretty much squelched all those possibilities for his sons and himself. I'm not sure I can go as far as believing Erlend gave two hoots about what overtaking the King would result in for the people, he was focused on what it would do for him and his sons. He gained the trust of others, because they knew the changes would be good for them.
I can see as you point out, the author may be setting the stage for the changes that occur for Norway, after this story ends. Undset has indeed covered much in this story.
-
All we can do when we read to understand a story is see the symbolism and make the connections - these are characters with equal value to understanding the story as the setting, conflict, plot and theme - all part of finding the rise, climax and falling and resolution aspects of a story - These are the key elements which must be incorporated into the writing of a novel.
Characters tell the story through their actions and dialog. We need characters with various characteristics to create the tensions in a story so that one character is useless without the other - therefore, we cannot really label one good or bad, they are both needed because as an individual character they serve no purpose except as an element of a story that helps us deduce the themes authors choose between; a character and nature - a character and another character - a character and society - the internal conflicts within a character along with place, time and setting all leading us to the central idea.
Erlend is neither good or bad, he is a character that is showing us an aspect of this society just as Kristin is also a character who is not good or bad but, is following the paths available to her in this time and place - their differences along with the differences between the other characters are not good or bad but, simply telling us a story of conflict within the boundaries of fourteenth century Norwegian society.
It is not important that Erlend has few to support him it is important to discover what is going on in the society that he has few to support him - we need to be asking and noticing What are his values? What does he desire? Even though he’s independent and not a good farmer, why does he not become a good farmer, what way of life is he projecting - why is he concerned if his sons are physically strong - what did he believe that allowed him to be put in jail - why does he love Kristin? Not that this character labeled Erlend is to our liking - but what is this character contributing to our understanding of the conflict between the king and the Barons and the King and the Church and the King and the peasants and the King and those paying taxes to the Crown and the King and those paying taxes to the Church and the King and the people's projected ideal of his role in how Norway interfaces with Denmark and Sweden, with trade between nations, etc. as well as, how the power struggle for the crown are all wrapped up in the character called Erlend as well as, the other characters.
Who are these characters from the standpoint of representing differences that are being played out at this time in history in Norway - what will happen to them is tied to the values that Norway is struggling with rather than according to our standards if they are living a moral life - their moral life is coming from a very different cauldron than our own - this is a time when a faithful husband and wife were an anomaly that even the Church leaders were struggling to honor and where there were still various legal ways to determine if you were married and where children were not cared for exclusively by a mother - that concept of motherhood was not part of the history of the west till the 1800s.
Yes, I am concerned that we are loosing the discussion of this book to our personal taste for characters that we would be more comfortable with if they lived by the newer values and morality rather than as characters who are simply an element vital to this story. We did well finding the differences in behavior and values during the discussions of books written in the nineteenth century - folks like Sir Walter in Persuasion were not considered bad, we said he was snobbish and selfish but not bad and because of his behavior and attitude he led Anne to a life that was not in her best interest - we read with success Jane Austen and Charles Dickens seeing the importance of all the characters - we seem to have lost our way with this trilogy written about fourteenth century Norwegian conflicts as expressed through various characters behavior.
-
I don't feel we are losing anything in our discussion, because each person's post, and point of view is important. What one person sees important in a story, another person may see another thing important. Our personal feelings of the characters is what draws us to them or makes us not care for them. I feel we have done a excellent job in touching on all aspects of the characters and the era.
I personally feel the author has written Erlend's character badly flawed, even keeping with these times. He has lost the friendship and respect of just about everyone including his family members. Essentially, the values in this century are really not all that different from any century, morals, faith and common decency, has been expected since the beginning of time. I don't see Erlend would be any different if you plopped him down in Pride & Prejudice, Downton Abbey, or a modern day classic. He is the carefree, swindler, dishonest, unfaithful, selfish, self serving character. There are those in many a novels. Undset I feel, is showing the comparisons of dark and light, good and evil, by giving us Simon and Erlend. Kristin herself makes these same comparisons. She can depend on Simon, she can not depend on Erlend. Undset is showing your actions have consequences, and those consequences do not only affect just you, they affect all those around you.
The history, church, laws and places of this time frame are very interesting, and I commend Undset on a wonderful job in how she has written this story, but ultimately, these are people with the same situations in life regardless of what era. We may not read it the same, we may not get the same from the story, we may not care to depict certain aspects. When I read a story I don't over analyze it because in doing so, I would lose interest in the basic theme and characters. There is no right way to read a story. Every person comes at it from their own personal way. I can appreciate and respect the different ways of others because I can learn new ideas from them. I wouldn't expect everyone to discuss, and see it from only my personal point of view, I only can share in the discussion what I get from it and hope to learn more as I read others comments.
I'm sorry you feel you have lost your way with this trilogy, I have been enjoying it very much, even though it can be extremely frustrating at times with the repeated behaviors of the characters. I have not seen much growth in any of them to be honest, and we are already going into the third book. We can't blame their attitudes and behaviors on the Norwegian time frame, all different times have some form of laws and church restrictions, yet it is up to the people to decide to abide by them, and try to live a harmonious life with others, or they can rebel and choose to make their own life, and others around them miserable.
This trilogy has been lengthy, and as I am getting into the third book I am thinking this story could have been told in less words and less books. But I will forge on til the end.
-
Seems to me we need to be asking why Erlend's character is written as someone "badly flawed, even keeping with these times. He has lost the friendship and respect of just about everyone including his family members." Why does Kristin love him as a flawed husband - What is it saying that we should understand that he is written as a flawed character - Does he get any brownie points for being at sea for long periods of time to protect Norway - and what does it mean to the story and to the other characters that he lost the respect of just about everyone - to whose benefit is it that he losses the friendship and respect of just about everyone - He does not feel any worse for the opinion others have of him - what is all this saying to us that points us to the theme of this story -
Is the conflict simply that Erlend is a bad guy and like a western he is the one wearing the black hat? Then who is wearing the white hat? - Does Kristin also wear a black hat since she was as passionately in love with Erlend wanting to be with him within days of their pristine virtuous overnight in the garden and she continues to support and stand by him - and so what is it that she is standing by - she does not come off as being dumb so what is in it for her to love this man.
Given the morality of the day is he really flawed or is it that the morals of all those tied to the pre-Christian heritage of the nation flawed. Even Gunnulf is flawed exacting such a harsh penance on Kristin as a young mother compared to how other clergy comfort her and he does not honor his God-given body when he denies its health with limited food and sleep and his prostrating himself inflicting punishment on his body - The leaders of the Church are flawed having children with woman they do not marry. At least Erlend married Kristin, who deliberately hardens her heart against Lavrans - and Lavrans blames his youth as the reason he is repulsed by Ragnfrid’s desire for him. There does not appear to be a white hat among the lot. Kristin and Erlend's share a love for each other during their stormy marriage that her parents’ more seemly and decent marriage lacks -
I agree Erlend would not be someone we would admire if he lived in our neighborhood and, it appears we are to this day hearing there are still many flawed priests as well as, many manipulative political figures that 'use' other people and who do not live up to our expectations for those holding their elevated power positions.
However, they all have a vulnerable place - as Robert Duvall, the actor who played Stalin said, he searched and found Stalin's vulnerability wrapped in the suicide death of his beautiful first wife. What does Erlend represent and where is his vulnerability. Erlend does not seem to be a cruel man - where is his vulnerability - figuring that out may lead us to why he is written with all his flaws in this story by Undset, a Nobel Prize winner, who was awarded the prize for this work and for her other series, The Master of Hestviken. It is difficult to imagine that someone would receive the Nobel Prize for a story with a mistakenly written character -
We may not like him as a neighbor however, this character has a reason for being in the story - what is it that Sigrid Undset is saying through this character? Does he represent someone like the man with 'No Name' in Fist Full of Dollars, who few of us would want to have over for dinner but we saw the rational for his revenge and although, we know revenge is sinful we still took to him, cruelty and all.
Erlend is not an alcoholic or a bigot, he is not a snob or filled with sarcasm and snarky comments, he is not a lazy leader of men and he was never a pedophile - where Lavrans was repulsed by sex, Ragnfrid, like Erlend and Kristin enjoyed pre-marital passionate sex. All the characters are flawed - is that it, to accept that none of us live the pure Christian life and keeping our sins hidden makes us appear less like Erlend whose sins are known by all who know him and regardless of his penance he is identified by his sins - some of which are only sins by Christian standards and not by the standards of the old ways or the Old Christian practices.
Yes, he is not a farmer but then is a Navel commander today a farmer even if he owns land - is a leader of men in politics a farmer - Lavrans was a successful knight but we do not hear he was a leader as Erlend in charge of keeping safe a far northern territory and where Lavrans did turn to farming not every man is a farmer - Kristin would make a good farmer's wife but she chose a man who is more knowledgeable and comfortable in a boat - she found the boat to be the least enjoyable way of travel - in that they were opposites - does one give up who they are to be like their partner - and so why did Undset write this couple having such different experiences and life skills - what are we to deduce from that? What significance is it that Erlend is a leader of men at sea much as his Viking history?
A Viking history that Norwegians identify for themselves to this day along with their skill at winter sports and their short summer farming is secondary to fishing and forestry. Norway quickly, in less then 200 years from the setting time of this story, dropped its Catholic association for Lutheranism and today the old Sagas are still read - it is as if Erlend and Kristin and the values of all the characters are alive in the moral flaws and values of Norway today.
There are so many questions that if we could unravel some of them maybe we could uncover the theme and message in this trilogy.
-
So much good stuff said since I was last in here. Yes, the book is getting long. Bellamarie, I hope you felt free to start in on the next section, Kinship's Dues in Archer, Honor among Kin in Nunnally. Let's read all of it in one chunk. I won't be able to finish it today--have a lot on my plate, but anyone can start talking about it at any time. And meanwhile, we can finish anything we have to say about this section.
-
As a reader, I see my job with the characters in three parts. First, figure out what they are like. Second, decide what I think of them. Third, figure out what the author means by them. Why did she make them this way? What is she saying with them, what is her point? I like the fact that we are all approaching the characters from different directions--we'll get more of the truth that way.
Barb and Bellamarie, you've covered a lot of Erlend's flawed character. But one thing that strikes me forcefully is how childish he is; in some ways, he's not really a grownup. Kristin, musing on all the little wounds he's given her: "...even though she had always known that he never wounded her the way a grown person intends harm to another, but rather the way a child strikes out playfully at his companion." He does things lightheartedly and impulsively, not worrying about consequences, and laughing at them when they come. He's not built to be a farmer, but most people would at least take some care to rent out things properly, not lose so much value without even thinking. He doesn't seem to take life seriously.
He does have virtues, most of them military. He is brave: courageous in battle, and able to endure torture knowing he won't break. He's good at military things too--takes a fierce joy in them. He's honorable, except in his dealings with women, holding to the rules of conduct of his class. He accidentally betrays his comrades through stupidity, but would never do so deliberately.
And for some reason, people like him. Lavrans liked him better than he wanted to, and even Simon, after so much agonizing effort to save his worthless hide, can't help sort of liking him.
So what is Undset saying with this very mixed person? I hope we figure it out. Barb suggests he's a Viking, which surely is part of it, and I'm working on a pretty fantastical theory. I wait with interest.
-
Barb, thanks for that analysis of the changing laws at that time. That explains why so much point is made, in the efforts to free Erlend, of the fact that torturing him is a violation of Norwegian law, done by foreigners. That would be a strong talking point.
-
Barb,
It is difficult to imagine that someone would receive the Nobel Prize for a story with a mistakenly written character -
I do not see a mistakenly written character. I can not explain myself any more clear than what I have as far as my take on the characters. I see the author showing us the history of Norway, the church, the laws and then there is the story of human nature. I have throughout this entire discussion posted my thoughts, feelings, and perception of this story. I don't expect everyone to come to the same conclusion I have. Like I said, we all approach a story from our own personal perception.
Undset is more than deserving of her Nobel prize, she has taken these characters, placed them in this century, and then done a marvelous job in implementing their lives with the church, laws and land of this era, along with telling a story of how their life choices good or bad have consequences, and affect them and others around them.
PatH., As a reader, I see my job with the characters in three parts. First, figure out what they are like. Second, decide what I think of them. Third, figure out what the author means by them. Why did she make them this way? What is she saying with them, what is her point?
I pretty much approach reading a story similar to this. I feel I have pretty much been able to answer all of these questions. As frustrated as I have been with not seeing more growth from these three characters to this point, they have pretty much lined up to what I have seen them to be throughout the story. None of them are completely good or bad. They all have their flaws. Some just refuse to make any exceptions to help compromise, or get along better in society and family. That being Erlend. If I have been hard on Erlend it is because the author has written him this way. You ask why? It is obvious to show the differences of the two men, Erlend and Simon. Erlend lives for himself, he throws caution to the wind and ignores church and law when he feels like it. Simon is more of a faith living farmer, who cares for others feelings and how his actions can and does affect his family and friends. Kristin is someone who is struggling with her lust and love for Erlend, over her love of faith and family.
Barb, There are so many questions that if we could unravel some of them maybe we could uncover the theme and message in this trilogy.
I don't feel your struggle. I feel the answers for me have been answered up to this point, my predictions so far have all played out. This story is a simple story for me. It is about human nature, and how from the beginning of time with Adam and Eve, to modern day life, we are faced with living within laws, regardless if they are flawed or not. We must have something as our basic guideline, which is our church/faith, and government/laws. In choosing to abide within them, or rebel against them, we will either live a harmonious life, or a life full of strife and struggle.
Because we all approach reading a story from our own perspective, we may all come to a different conclusion be it fantastical, simple, or some may not be able to come to a conclusion at all. For me, I am more than okay with how Undset has written these characters and this story, flaws and all.
-
Sorry, I have NO idea why my page is so long and blank. I had a post all compiled and lost it, so maybe it's invisible. :o
-
Maybe if I put on my special x-ray glasses I'll see it. ;) It's SO annoying to lose a post. >:(
-
I wondered about all the empty space on the bottom of your post Bellamaria - some sort of glich
OK it hit me - what I am seeing is a difference - all the laws coming from the Church are great for folks living in a community where as, the Erlend's of the world live and work in wide open spaces - after bringing up Fist Full of Dollars it hit me, Erlend hadn't bothered me all that much because he is JUST like those in this state who work a ranch - not so much the rancher but all the hands and 'cowboys' -
Yes, they live in the immediate - they would give you the shirt off their back as the saying goes - they have no use for money because there is no way they could ever put enough aside to buy something meaningful like a ranch - that is why the movies about some guy going back to family owned and neglected land or somehow coming into land ownership is a fantasy dream - all they own is their horse, saddle, rope, gun and their pickup - they are provided with room and board - living outside a big city, even back when Austin was only 600,000 and I worked at the Girl Scout Camp for a summer - we had a trespasser that we held with Wanda's rifle and Scout's shot gun till the Sheriff could get there - you could hear his siren in the night - it took him at top speed of over 75 miles an hour on these back roads 45 minutes to get there - so you better be independent and strong and the upshot is you protect the land from marauders with that being about the only law - in order to run a ranch you need cheap and cattle-skilled labor and so for generations there was a trickle up from Mexico where animal culture and horsemanship is second nature - it is the law of survival and the demands of the land that determine the law.
Most of these guys live for today - they have to make up their own laws as they go - they have to be clear eyed and healthy - and they are passionate about life - they see it around them everyday - to live and work in freezing weather or during a wet season you cannot keep it up in good humor without feeling a passion for life - in a moment they could loose everything - cattle disease - flash flood - lightening scattering a herd never to be found - that is big money (in todays money a weaned calf is worth a $1000 each) - you know how to work cooperatively with others of the same lifestyle - when these men move into town they are kind and helpful but rough and full of hardy expectations for a good time regardless how bad things become.
Bible - Church - what is that - when you work outdoors far away from towns that is not part of you life experience and on top we have Erlend being passed around as a child so that he had no loving mom to experience consistency and as a young man when the hormones are raging he was easily enticed by an older married lady - there was comfort by no passion or love -
As guys in this part of the country invite new found friends to visit they usually say something like, 'come on down and we will take the pretty out of you' and that is how I am now seeing Erlend - living in the immediate, passionate, little attachment to belongings except his boats, he worries if his children are not strong and hardy because to him life is physical, not an exercise in using your head to organize do's and don't's - you take things as they come - if Kristin did not make their home into a prosperous farm he would have been fine using it almost like a fortress and if he lost it he always has his boats - living this kind of life, like the men today that either work a ranch or are now in town with that heritage, usually involved in physical work like delivery or in the building trades, they see no guile and believe they can take care of themselves regardless what happens - they use the 'good ol' boy' approach to all encounters and so you do not see them in jail although, they do not live their life adhering to book laws. They are not out to get you and so their concept of law works.
Chris Kyle is a perfect example of a man who served - trusted - would give you the shirt off his back - was strong, independent, good looking, a big man who laughed a lot - lived in the now and could not imagine a fellow veteran, who he was giving some R&R would kill him on the shooting range.
That is how I see Erlend - Erlend did not die as Chris did but even Chris, had he pulled through like so many who experience physical damage, it does not change their bon viveur attitude towards life or their independent nature that thrives on individual freedom - that is part of Erlend's relationship with Kristin - he sees her giving him a hard time as part of her nature and says so to her father when he wanted Kristin to change her ways. With the folks who had professed to be friends of Erlend, as the saying goes, who needs enemies.
Tra la I am also seeing the match-up - as the American myth is the cowboy the Norwegian myth is the seafaring adventurers that were the Vikings. That independent, free, adventurer mindset is not turned off just because you are visiting or living in a town - the spirit that allows you to be the adventurer in wide open spaces 'is' your outlook on life and within that spirit is the knowledge that death could easily come so, live each minute regardless of circumstances.
Where as, those with the spirit that make them good farmers live with their focus on the future - seeds nurtured to a later harvest, profit conserved for a bad winter and future land purchases or the need for additional equipment or the needs of those working your land - if you do this or that as others have found successful this or that should be the outcome - God will send the rain and the sun and so be on good terms with God since a farmer needs the rain and the sun in certain doses therefore, organized religion and an organized government with guides for behavior make sense. Workers spread out over the land rather than in close quarters on a ship need to be led with kindness so they want to do their work where as, aboard ship they can see the immediate results of not working together and so again, that sets up a different personality interacting with others.
Like a good farmer Simon looks to the future and what could be with him and Kristin where as, Erlend is not stupid and sees it but his relationship with Kristin is like all his relationships in the here and now - the future will take care of itself.
OK gotta start the other book -
-
YEA Barb! You had what I call a WOWZA moment!!!! I'm glad Fist Full of Dollars, was able to help you see what I have been desperately trying to convey, and not doing as good a job as this movie has for you. I'm just happy you can make sense of it all.
Erlend is the yen to Simon's yang. Life needs both. Kristin is somewhat caught between the yen and yang of life. Her heart wants Erlend's carefree spirit, the wonderlust, yet her common sense wants someone more like Simon, for a steady, dependable husband. He warned her early on that life would be a struggle with him, and she thought she could handle it. She just never realized how much of a struggle it would be. This is why she explodes on Erlend after letting things bottle up in her for some time. Kristin wants Erlend to be both yen and yang, which is impossible for him to be. And to top things off.....she knows she is putting her love for Erlend, above her love for God. We all at times can find ourselves doing this in life.
I was gone out of town today, and had no time to read, so hopefully I can read some tonight or early tomorrow morning.
PatH., If you manage to find my invisible words let me know. Nothing more frustrating than to type a full post, only for it to vanish before my eyes. You never remember the exact words again. Grrrrrr......
-
Eureka! I wasn't seeing it either. Now I do.
-
Barb, I like seeing Erlend as a cowboy. I've never met a cowboy, but you recognized what you've seen. Cowboy, viking, lots of other roles of the same type.
-
The recent flooding and these cowboys rescued about 800 head of cattle out of the swollen Trinity River and drove them to high ground going through a small town Dayton Texas on Hway 90
The first photo is one of the recent migrants that are needed on a ranch and the second photo is a more seasoned cowboy -
You are looking at about a million dollars on the hoof with those calves worth anything from $700 to $1000 according to their weight and a larger cow can bring in around $4000
(http://cdn.abclocal.go.com/content/ktrk/images/cms/060115-ktrk-cattle6.jpg)
(http://ww1.hdnux.com/photos/36/64/01/8077400/5/622x350.jpg)
(http://cdn.abclocal.go.com/content/ktrk/images/cms/053015-ktrk-cattle-drive-01-img.jpg)
-
So now Kristin and Erlend are living at Jorundgaard, and she is mistress of the manor. He of course is not feeling comfortable here, it is so different than Husaby, even though he did not seem to do a days work there, or seem all that happy at Husaby either. He just is not the type of man to put any effort into working the land. PatH., I have to hand it to you, the qualities you gave to Erlend was gracious and generous in my opinion. I was even willing to bend a bit to them, but these chapters only bring me back to my own feelings about him. "Childish" is the one adjective I will agree with you on.
pg. 646 'Twas impossible he could be within as outwardly he seemed. He must needs be unhappy here.
pg. 654 __'Twas hard to speak of it to Erlend, if he himself did not understand__that he ought not to take his great sons and go roaming the woods with them, when there was more than enough work to be done on the farm__ Truly, she had never looked that Erlend should go behnd the plough himself. For that matter, he scarce the man to cope with a spell of real work. But hers sons, could not be suffered to grow to manhood as their father had done__learning but to handle arms, to hunt wild beasts and disport him with his horses__or hang over a draught-board with a priest whose talk it was to coax into the knight's son some little lore of Latin and of writing, of singing and playing on strings. 'Twas therefore, in chief, that she had kept the manor short of working folk__her sons would learn, she thought, from childhood on, that they must use them to husbandry. There was small hope now for Erlend's sons in the knightly calling.
But 'twas hard to speak of this to Erlend. For she held fast to this__never from her should her husband hear one word he could take for blame of his deeds or lamentation over the fate he had brought upon himself and his sons. The harder was it for her to bring home to the father that his sons must needs use them to work themselves on their farm.
This entire section is pretty much showing how Erlend is restless living at Jorundgaard. He is wasting away his days taking his sons out with him, rather than letting them learn to farm. He has messed up his own life, and now it appears he really is not at all caring for his son's future.
Sorry, I just can't agree Erlend fits the profile of a cowboy. At least cowboys were responsible for their daily duties. Cowboys knew what work needed to be done, and were ready and willing to do the hard work, they respected their cattle and land. If these cowboys waited for Erlend to help them rescue these cattle, none would have survived! Erlend is an irresponsible husband and father. He is like a spoiled child, who has never grown up. These chapters only make me even more furious with his behavior. Kristin has all the responsibility of raising these seven sons, and tending to the help, and the land. Yet, Kristin still struggles with worries for Erlend.
pg. 657 Erlend! Oh, Erlend! She knew well that, in her inmost heart, she knew he was not so__careless__as he seemed. He, that had been ever restless__'twas as though now he was ever still: as a stream of water, striking at last on a steep wall of rock, lets itself be turned aside, and oozes through the peat to make a pool, with marshland all around. He passed his time on Jorundgaard, doing naught, and taking now one and now another of his sons to keep him company in nothing-doing. Or he would set about breaking one of the young colts. But at that he never made any hand__he was all too hasty__
God help me, but I just do not see any redeemable qualities in this man. Kristin struggles with the Erlend she hopes him to be, and with the Erlend she knows him to be. His actions time and again have shown her the true person he is, irresponsible, immature, and self absorbed. Regardless of his upbringing, there comes a time a person takes responsibility and stop using his past for an excuse for his horrible behavior. He has seven sons who need him to be a father to them, and instead he treats them like childhood friends.
Barb, With the utmost of respect, I watched the movie American Sniper. I have seen interviews of Chris Kyle's wife. Erlend could not even come close to being compared to this American hero.
-
I haven't gotten very far in this section, but I can't see Erlend EVER taking responsibility.
-
Unlike Kristin, who, as you pointed out, finds her choice harder than she thought, but deals with it, although crossly.
-
ah but as a seafaring adventurer he was honing his skills - I do see him as responsible just as a cowboy when they move to town are out of place and seldom work in an office - they cannot wait for hunting season and they are working on the house or their vehicle, always several dogs, sharing all that with their children.
I do not see being a farmer is the end all be all - and so I simply see a clash of two cultures - I do not think Erlend messed up - he was loyal to a group who saw another way for Norway to get the attention it needed just as I do not think anyone today, who supports another for national leadership as having messed up if their attempt fails.
When you rescue someone who was being ill used by the opposing forces should not mean they have to live life as you do or everytime we ever rescued anyone from any enemy we would question their ability as a soldier or in this case as a sailor and a patriot -
I am so sorry to see that this discussion is about right and wrong or good and bad or measuring fatherhood using today's values when for generations a father had little to do with childrearing till boys could handle a gun or the plow or the sails, that there is supposidly proper life choices that are considered responsible where as years of practicing the lifestyle that was the heritage within a family is living irresponsibly - sad...
-
Erland. I, for one, am attracted to Erland. He's a challenge, elusive as a wisp of smoke, so brave he is foolhardy and he's loyal, not only to his beliefs but to his love of Kristin. I realize he had a brief fling but that did not alter his love for Kristin. Kristin was and still is attracted to the bad boy in Erland and she knows she has won his heart. She has caught that elusive wisp. I don't think Simon is such a saint. He too has an illegitimate daughter and didn't choose to be with his wife when she was giving birth but stayed with Kristin. To me helping Kristin is a way for him to be near her for it's obvious he hasn't gotten over her.
-
Barb,
I am so sorry to see that this discussion is about right and wrong or good and bad or measuring fatherhood using today's values when for generations a father had little to do with childrearing till boys could handle a gun or the plow or the sails, that there is supposidly proper life choices that are considered responsible where as years of practicing the lifestyle that was the heritage within a family is living irresponsibly - sad...
I do not see being a farmer is the end all be all - and so I simply see a clash of two cultures
Farming is not the end all be all, but if your father has taken away your opportunities, because he is considered an adulterer, traitor, and untrustworthy, along with taken your chances of nobility from you, then like Kristin points out, they must learn farming for their future.
I am using only this author's words that show how irresponsible, self absorbed, undependable a husband and father he is. The author is the person who created Erlend. The author continuously keeps portraying him as immature and childish. Using the quotes of Kristin and the author, they have not deemed him high and respected. On the contrary they continue to point out how his actions have cost him respect and honor from family and friends, and has also cost his sons their future nobility. Kristin admittedly struggles with the fact Erlend is carefree, and not a good role model for their seven sons. Her words, not mine. The author has decided to have Erlend be the person he is in the century he is in. It has nothing to do with judging him or holding him to the standards of today. You can fantasize about the Erlend you want to see him as, just as Kristin fantasizing for the Erlend she wishes for from time to time, be it as you may, but in fact this author has written this character as he is, flawed in so many ways. The author has pointed out he is of no help in raising their sons. The author has Erlend striking Kristin. ALL the reasons I do not like him, is because this author has shown he is not someone with values I would want in a husband, father or friend.
You can't rewrite this book, or character, due to wanting to make Erlend be a different person than the author has chosen him to be.
Are we all reading the same book, because I am quoting from my book the words of Kristin, which the author has written. I have not seen any quotes so far to substantiate or warrants Erlend to be any different, than what the author has provided to us, and we are now into the third book of the trilogy.
Halcyon, Yes, it is obvious Simon still loves Kristin, everyone can see that except for Kristin.
-
pg. 660
__Oh no, with Erlend's offspring there could be no mistaking who their father was.__When she was last in Nidaros, she had seen that child from Lensvik. She had seen the child's face; in a single glance, but 'twas enough. It was like other children's faces that had lain at her own breast__
Kristin overhears Arne and Erlend discussing he has another son by the woman he betrayed Kristin with.
pg. 661 The Lensvik knight was so o'erjoyed at the coming of the son his wife had born last winter__'twas planin he had no doubt that he himself was the father. "Ay, Thorolf himself must sure know best," Erlend had answered. She knew that tone in his voice__he was standing now with downcast eyes and the little smile at one corner of his mouth. But the folk were talking, saying the thing was not as it should be__"Oh the man must sure know best himself," said Erlend as before__ "Ay, ay, Erlend! That one boy is heir to more than the seven sons you have by your wife__" "For my seven sons shall I care myself, Arne__" But at that she went down; she would not suffer them to talk any more of this thing. Erlend looked a little out of countenance when he saw her.
These paragraphs show just how much Kristin realizes where her choices have gotten her, she knows now Erlend has another son that will be noble, yet he has taken all the chances from her seven sons to have that rightful place.
pg. 666 So, it was that she must go out into this ghostly night to take breath, when she felt nigh perishing__ She sat and let the bitter old thoughts come to her like old acquaintance. And met them with other old well-known thought__in feigned excuse of Erlend__True, he had not craved this of her. He had not laid upon her aught of the burden she had taken upon her shoulders. He had but begotten seven sons on her. "For my seven sons I shall care, Arne_" God alone might know what the man meant by those words. Like enough he had meant nothing__he had but said __
Erlend had not begged her to set Husaby and his estates a-going again. He had not begged her fight for dear life to save him. Like a chieftain he had suffered__that his goods be wasted, that his life be set on the hazard, that all he owned be lost. Stripped and bare, he stood amidst mischance loftily unbowed and still; loftily still and unbowed he abode in her father's manor like some strange guest__
But all that was hers was her son's by right. By right they claimed her sweat and blood and all her strength. But, if so, the manor and she herself could lay rightful claim to them in return. There had been no need for her to take the road to the saeter like any cottar's wife. But at home, as things were now, she felt herself crushed and hemmed in on every side__so that she seemed to fail for breath. Besides, she had needed to prove to herself that she could do a peasant woman's work. True, toil and struggle had been hers every hour since she rode, a bride, into Erlend Nikulausson's manor__and saw that her one at least must fight to save the heritage of him she bore below her heart. If the father could not, then she must be the one. But now she must needs assure herself__that, if the pinch came, there was no piece of work she had set her maids and serving women to in the old days that she could not do with her own hands.
Kristin is a strong-willed, hard working, determined woman, but how much heartbreak must Kristin have to bear by Erlend? Eline, her father, and others tried to warn her of what her life would be like with him, but she could not listen.
We all think we know what is best, we all let our hearts lead us rather than our common sense from time to time. I suppose this just shows us how much strife in life comes, from being prideful and sinful. My heart breaks for her after reading these paragraphs.
-
Yes, when she overheard that conversation, Kristin had already guessed that Sunniva had had Erlend's child; she had seen the baby in church, and it looked just like her own children did as babies. It's also mentioned that Sunniva was much distraught when her brother, who was part of the plot, committed suicide in prison. Obviously Sunniva knew nothing of his involvement.
-
The passage you quote from p 666 (starts on 725 in Nunnally) plus some of the surrounding passages make a powerful bit of writing. You really feel how suffocated Kristin's been feeling, her need to prove herself, and also to lose her frustrations by immersing completely in hard work--hard, but work she enjoys.
Mostly I don't notice differences in meaning when I compare translations, but there's a slight one here. Nunnally says: "For that matter, she had demonstrated before to her nursemaids and serving women that there wasn't any kind of work she wasn't capable of doing with her own hands."
I don't know how clear it is in Archer, but it's pretty obliquely stated in Nunnally; somewhere in this period Kristin has had a miscarriage.
-
These chapters are covering so much I care barely keep up. I love that Kristin, Erlend, Simon and Ramborg are living close enough to be in each other's lives, and their children can be close. Kristin comes to care for Andres when he is sick since Ramborg is pregnant. Kristin decides to go and get the special potion to treat Andres, since he is not getting better. Simon tries to stop her but she feels it's the only thing left to help little Anders. He indeed does respond and gets better. Simon gives Kristin a special clasp that Lavrans had given to him as a parting gift the day he left the manor.
"This seems to me to be all too great a gift," she said low, with eyes cast down. Simon laughed a little as he answered: "You will have need of many such, Kristin__when the time comes for you to send forth all your sons with bridal gifts__" Kristin looked at him and said: "You know well, Simon__I deem that the things that have come to you from him__you know that I hold you as dear as though you were his own son__" "Do you so__?" He touched her cheek lightly with the back of his hand stroking it downwards, and smiled, a strange little smile, while he spoke as to a child: "Ay, ay, Kristin, I have marked it__"
The two of them have such a warm relationship. Simon as much as he has loved her all these years, he has held his respect for her, by never voicing or acting on his affection for her.
-
This chapter is very powerful. Kristin sees that Andres may not recover, and harks back to the pagan black magic she learned from Fru Ashild. It's a sin, and she never dared do it for her own children when they were in danger. Why is she willing to do it now, for Simon's son? So she goes to the churchyard, cuts the turf from a grave, and pays for it with old gold. It's eerie and scary, and she's filled with terrors, some Christian, some pagan. And it works. The boy recovers.
-
The clasp is a rather ironic gift, since the occasion Lavrans gave it to Simon was their parting when Simon broke his engagement with Kristin.
-
Yes, Kristin used the black magic potion, and she and Simon agree they will keep this between them. Kristin feels she must do all possible to save Simon's son, since he has done so much to help her with freeing Erlend, being there for her and her sons.
So now it seems Simon has saved Erlend from a death sentence in prison, Kristin has saved Andres from death, and Erlend jumps in the fight and saves Simon, by killing Holmgeir Moisesson. No sooner does Erlend do this good deed for Simon, he seems to mock Simon and says:
pg. 721 "Ay,'twas foolish of you too, Simon, that you bethought you not to make for the door at the first__" "How so?" asked Simon, something shortly. "Because you were without__?" "Nay__" there was a little laugh in Erlend's voice. "Ay, that too__though I thought not on that. But narrow the door, see up, they could not have come at you more than one at a time__ And besides, 'tis wonder often to see how quick folks come to their wits again once they get out beneath open sky. Much do I marvel now that no more than one man was slain."
Erlend mentions Kristin loves Simon like a brother, and Simon says she mentioned it in the summer when she helped save Andres. Why is Erlend even bringing this up? Is Erlend saying he saved Simon for the sake of Kristin?
Simon is already wondering what it will bring him now that he owes Erlend his life.
Erlend then goats Simon again with this: pg. 724 "But you must mind, Simon," said he softly, "there goes an old world: Many a man wins what is meant for another, but another's lot none may win." Simon lifted his head with a sudden start. Slowly he grew blood-red in the face__the veins in his temples stood out like dark, twisted cords. Erlend glanced at the other__and withdrew his eyes swiftly. Then he too reddened__a strangely fine and girlish flush spreading under his dark skin. He sat still, shy and abashed, with mouth a little open, like a child. Simon rose vehemently and went over to the bed.
These two men no sooner bond, and then Simon finds out his brother Gyrd Darre was in the plot with Erlend, and used the family seal on the letters that Gaute had burned, when Erlend was captured. Simon is begging Erlend to tell him the truth and he refuses.
pg 731 But Kristin fixed her great eyes full upon him__they were dark with sorrow and anger; "Could you believe this thing of Erlend__that he could betray you so?" "I believed naught," said Simon hotly, "I believed 'twas foolish babble of that young scamp there__" "Nay, Simon__ I will not have you go with me," said Kristin, low. He saw that she was unspeakably hurt and sorrowful.
Simon then learns that Ramborg suspected Erlend had others in his plot. She throws it in Simon's face he was too busy saving Erlend for Kristin, and could not be home for the birth of their child. Ramborg finally confronts Simon
pg. 751 "Simon__seems it not to you that I deserve you should love me more than Kristin? Wicked and false she was to you__I have followed you about like a little lap-dog all these years__" "I know you have not broken God's law, or cast away faith and honour__" "Never have I spoken one word to you sister or touched her with my hand in otherwise than I can answer fro on judgement day__God and Saint Simon the apostle, are my witness__" Ramborg nodded silently. "Think you your sister would have met me as she has done all these years, if she thought as you do, that I loved her with sinful lust? Nay, then you know not Kristin." "Oh, she has never so much as thought whether any other man save Erlend bears love to her. It scarce comes to her mind that we others are flesh and blood__" "Ay, belike you speak truly there, Ramborg," said Simon calmly, "But then sure you can understand for yourself how witless 'tis for you to plague me with jealousy." Ramborg drew away her hands. "I meant it not so either, Simon. But never have you cared for me as you cared for her. She is forever in your thought even yet__of me you think seldom, when you see me not." "'Tis not my doing, Ramborg, that a man's heart is so made that what is writ thereon when 'tis young and fresh stands more deeply graven than all the runes cut afterward__" "Have you never heard the word that says: a man's heart is that first thing that quickens in his mother's womb, and the last thing in him to die?" said Rambor, softly. "Nay__Is there a word that says the like__?" Ay, and it may well be true too. He stroked her white cheek lightly.
These chapters let us get to know a lot about Simon. He is a man of faith, conscious, honor and loyalty, but as much as he was thankful for Erlend's help saving his life, he now is as much hurt by learning how Erlend had betrayed him with his brother Gryd. Simon also realizes even in trying to hide his love for Kristin, and never making a move towards her, others were well aware of his love for her, especially Erlend and Ramborg. Simon is no saint, he has his flaws, and he can't really make his heart feel differently than what it does, no matter how hard he tries. Kristin is like an addiction for him. He has loved her so for long, and much like Lavrans and Ragnfrid's marriage, Simon and Ramborg live in a marriage with one having desires for another. And much like Lavrans loved Ragnfrid as much as his heart allows him, Simon loves Ramborg as much as his heart allows him, considering he loves Kristin more.
Now that all has been revealed, how will all of this effect the four of them, and their relationships?
PatH., Are we ready to go on to Part II DEBTORS? It is about 150 pages. Should we split it into a two part reading, or tackle all of it? I'm up for anything.
-
Bellamarie, I think it's pretty much up to us two to set the pace. I bet Halcyon has already finished (right, Halcyon?) and I think Barb has a lot of other stuff on her plate, and may fall behind whatever the pace. Let's go fairly fast; reading the first 4 chapters now, and the rest a day later while we're talking about the first part.
Does that sound good?
-
That sounds great! The story is moving really quickly now so I'm anxious to see where this all ends.
Simon and Erlend have seemed to make a good effort to be there for each other, but I think the fact the two of them both are in love with Kristin, prevents them from bonding. Simon has much mistrust of Erlend due to his actions of the past, and Erlend sees Simon's heart is for Kristin. Poor Ramborg, I do feel sorry for her, but she did know all the years before she married Simon he has never stopped loving Kristin.
Emily Dickinson’s Ultra-Famous: “The Heart Wants What the Heart Wants”
-
Right you are PatH. Now I'm very involved with summer Latin. This has been a most interesting and lively discussion! Carry on Bellamarie and PatH.
-
Oh dear so Simon and Erlend have parted friendship and none of the family are now involved with each other, due to Erlend's betrayal.
pg. 755 She took this unfriendship 'twixt Erlend and Simon Darre hardly. Ramborg was her only sister. And when she thought on it, that now Simon would come among them no more, she understood fully, for the first time, how fond she had come to be of this man and how much of thanks she owed him__in the troublous lot that was hers she had had a sure stay in his trusty friendship. And she knew now that, all over the country-side, the folk would have a new titbit of gossip__that yonder Jorundgaard people had broken with Simon of Formo too. Simon and Ramborg were liked and held in esteem by every soul. And for the most part she herself, her husband, and her sons were looked on with distrust and misliking__that she had known for long. Now would they be left quite unfriended__ Kristin felt as though she must sink into the ground with sorrow and shame the first Sunday when she came on to the church-green and saw Simon standing there, a little way off, in a cluster of yeo-men. He bowed his head in greeting to her and hers, but 'twas the first time he come not forward to shake hands and chat with them.
There is great unrest in Norway, the great lords south and west in the realm and throughout the Uplands were som miscontent with King Magnus' rule__"twas said they had openly threatened to take to arms, to rouse the commons, and bring Sir Magnus Eiriksson to govern after their will and counsel, or else take for king his mother's sister's son, the young Jon Haftorsson of Sudrheim__his mother, the Lady Agnes, was daughter to King Haakon Haalegg, of blessed memory.
Naakkve seems to think with this it may turn favor back with Erlend. Kristin overhears them talking and advices Erlend to keep in mind they are too young to share certain talk with. Kristin then overhears Naakkve and Gaute talking loosely about women, and she is upset to hear Naakkve speak with little respect. It seems Kristin is losing control of the husband and sons.
pg. 791 "Methinks you are more childish than the lads, Erlend!
Ut oh, all hell is breaking lose!
792 "So__ you comfort you with the thought, Erlend, as you sit there in my father's high-seat, that your sons shall be saved by his prayers, even as they are fed by his lands__" Erlend grew pale: "Mean you, Kristin__that I am unworthy to sit in Lavrans Bjorgulfson's high-seat__" His wife's lips moved, but could bring forth no sound. Erlend rose and stood moveless: "Mean you this__for then say I, as sure as God is above us both__I will sit there never more. "Answer." said he again, as she stood speechless. A long tremor shook the woman's body. "He was__ a better master__he who__sat there before you"__"Heed your tongue now, Kristin!" Swiftly Erlend strode a step or two nearer. She stood upright with a start: "Ay, strike me__I have borne that too ere now; I can bear it again." "Strike you__I thought not on it." He stood with his hand resting on the board; again they gazed at one another, and again his face had that strange far-off calm which she had seen on it at some rare times. Now it drove her to distraction. She knew she was in the right__Erlend's talk was witless, reckless; but the face of his made her feel as though all wrong was hers. She looked at him, and sick with dread herself at what she said, she spoke: "I fear me 'twill not be in my sons that your line will flourish again in the Trondheim country__" Erlend flushed blood-red: "You could not forbear to mind me of Sunniva Olavsdatter, I see__" "'Twas not I who named her, but you." Erlend reddened yet more deeply. "Have you never thought, Kristin__that you were not wholly without blame in that__mischance__ "Mind you that night in Nidaros__I came and stood before your bed. Most humble was I, and sorrowful for that I had offended against you, my wife__I came to beg of you__to forgive me my wrong. Your answer was to bid me go and lay me where I had lain the night before__" "Could I know that you had lain by your kinsman's wife__?" Erlend stood a little. He grew pale, and again red. Then he turned and went from the room without a word. The wife did not stir__long she stood moveless, her clenched hands pressed up beneath her chin, staring into the light. Then she raised her head with a jerk__drew a long breath. Some time he must endure to hear it__
Then she grew ware of the sound of horse's hoofs in the courtyard__heard by its gait that 'twas a horse being led by a housecarl. She stole to the door and out into the penthouse, stood behind the doorpost, and peered out.
WOW! Erlend has stormed out to live in the house in Haugen, where Lady Aashild lived. He has been gone for months now and who would guess_____________ Simon in injured, Kristin has come to care for him, and he dies an honorable death. Before Simon dies, he and Kristin have a talk and he encourages Kristin to go to Erlend and mend their marriage.
I am drained from reading these chapters. Phew!!
-
A few final comments about Honor Among Kin before going on to Debtors.
Erlend is terrible husband material, and has neither the ability nor the desire to run a farm well, but he does have some abilities, and in this section we get a rare chance to see him in action. Erlend and Simon have traveled to Kvam to settle a mixed-up legal property issue. Simon is trying hard to figure things out; Erlend asks to see the documents, looks at them, summarizes what the legal situation is, and what the likely outcomes would be from their various possible courses of action. Then he proposes a solution that will more or less satisfy everyone, gets them to agree to it, and helps draft the document. He has the skill to figure out the solution, and the persuasiveness and appearance of authority to get it accepted by the parties.
Then Simon gets in a fight, and Erlend saves his life by joining in, and by having the strategic sense to get them through the narrow door, where their attackers have to meet them one at a time, and will be calmed by the cold outdoors. That evening Erlend stresses how important it is for Simon to write his report of killing a man and turn it in immediately.
Erlend can be useful in the right circumstances.
-
Yes, PatH., I was so glad to finally see something positive of Erlend, yet it appears he turns around just minutes later and takes his good deed and talents to ridicule Simon for not having thought of it. What is it about Erlend, the author continues to take every good thing, and turn it into a negative, shortly after?
I agree, Erlend has a good thinking head on his shoulders when it comes to situations such as these. He has used his knowledge in law and property, to go behind Kristin's back and sell off parts of her land, and to treat renters unfairly. In this case, he used his knowledge to settle a dispute which had a positive outcome.
Did you feel Simon almost resented Erlend's knowledge and talents at this time? I thought possibly Simon did, and yet I also felt Simon didn't like being in Erlend's debt, even though it was really an even wash, since Simon had saved Erlend's life from prison.
I have to hand it to Simon for standing up for the honor of Ragnfrid and Lavrans. Why didn't Erlend come to their defense when Holmgeir said, "I trow well he had no such sins to atone for that he should need__" the man smirked a little __"had I lived a virtuous Christian life as Lavrans Bjorgulfsson__and had been wedded to that unglad woman, Ragnfrid Ivarsdatter__I had rather wept for the sins I had not wrought__"
It was an automatic reaction, for Simon to spring up and strike Holmgeir hard on the mouth .
-
I have to hand it to Simon for standing up for the honor of Ragnfrid and Lavrans. Why didn't Erlend come to their defense when Holmgeir said....
Erlend wasn't there. He had just gone to get the horses, and didn't re-enter the room until Simon had already killed Holmgeir. As they leave, Erlend asks Simon: "How the Devil could all of you get into such a quarrel in such a short time?" But I don't think Erlend would have been so quick or so touchy to defend Lavrans. Simon truly loved his father-in-law, and knew things that made Holmgeir's digs hit home. I don't think Erlend is making fun of Simon with his questions, though.
Did you feel Simon almost resented Erlend's knowledge and talents at this time? I thought possibly Simon did, and yet I also felt Simon didn't like being in Erlend's debt, even though it was really an even wash, since Simon had saved Erlend's life from prison.
Absolutely yes, to both. Simon is really irritated when Erlend does a better job at figuring out the dispute, and it's even worse for him because he knows he's being unreasonable.
I think one of the things that has kept things bearable for Simon is that Erlend and Kristin owe him big time. Simon spent almost two years, neglected his wife, used up his credit with the men in power, and alienated himself from some of his social circles to save Erlend's life. What keeps him going in the difficult position of living as their neighbor is knowing he has the moral high ground. Now he's lost it. Kristin has risked her soul to save his son, and Erlend has saved his life. This is hard for him to take.
-
Thank you PatH., for clarifying this, I agree with you on all points. I went back and read it again. Simon has felt he lost the moral high ground, because he has slain a man he did not intend to. The fight got out of control, and resulted in one dying and others being wounded. But Simon was in fact trying to honor Ragnfrid's name. He does not like feeling he owes his life to Erlend, even though it is really a wash, for him saving Erlend's life. Simon did marvel at the fitted body, the agility, and the quickness of Erlend. He realized Erlend had skills, talents, and a bright mind in all aspects of this land deal and battle. Simon's pride is wounded. This I see as sinful, stubborn pride, on Simon's part. Ever since he found Kristin and Erlend in the brothel, he has been able to hold this high and mighty attitude, and to top it off he called off the betrothal looking even more the bigger person. He did in fact neglect Ramborg, for the sake of Kristin. He truly has his faults, even if they do not seem as many as Erlend.
It does not take long, before Simon finds out how Erlend betrayed him with his brother, in the plot to overthrow the king, so this now gives Simon reason to feel high and mighty once again, over Erlend. Simon now has reason to finally withdraw away from Erlend and Kristin. I think he feels better never having to look at Erlend, knowing his betrayal, but more so he owes him his life. Seems with Erlend just saving his life, Simon could have been a bit less harsh on Erlend for the betrayal. But then Simon realizes how much a part of the plot his brother was involved in, and how much it could have cost him, had he been found out. Erlend did not give up any of the people who were in on the plot with him, and was willing to die if he must, not revealing anyone else involved. So, just as I begin seeing some better qualities of Erlend, we advance to Part Two DEBTORS, and all hell breaks loose. :o
-
Back to your post 474, dealing with the first 4 chapters of Debtors, taking things in no particular order:
There is great unrest in Norway
Dissatisfaction with King Magnus continues. He doesn't seem to be all that interested in doing a good job with Norway. Now they're trying to replace him with his mother's sister's son Jon. This isn't going to get anywhere. It's now 1338, and in 1343 Magnus will actually be forced to turn Norway over to the rule of his child son Haakon. That must mean another regency. I don't know who the regent will be.
It seems Kristin is losing control of the husband and sons.
She's always been rather protective, and Erlend's casual approach plus the fact that she can't rely on him to keep any of the family protected or take care of them drive Kristin frantic.
What about their final quarrel? Is either of them in the right? Could they have managed to avoid the unfortunate outcome?
Notice the significance of where Erlend goes. Haugen is the only bit of land left that Erlend himself owns. (Munan had inherited it from his mother Ashild, but it seemed too haunted to him, and he deeded it over to Erlend). What other significance could Haugen have?
-
I think the final quarrel is about Kristin fearing her sons may grow up to be reckless like Erlend. She is so exhausted with his behavior, and this betrayal she learns of where Erlend used Simon's brother sort of sets her over the top. She has had to deal with so much, being outcasted because people do not trust Erlend, his affair with Sunniva, finding out he has a son by her who will inherit nobleness and her sons won't, he refuses to help around the farm, he is taking the sons out to hang out with him, rather than they do their responsibilities on the farm, and now she fears she's losing her sons who have been her whole life. The only stable thing she has is the memory of her father, how he was a responsible, faith living father, and Erlend can not live up to him. She sees changes coming all around her, and she so desperately wants the security of her familiar past.
I think Erlend has felt trapped in this marriage since day one. He has resisted being a responsible husband and father since her learned she was pregnant the first time. Each time she got pregnant he hurt her by not being happy about it. I think Erlend thought having Kristin meant they would live in this fantasy, reckless world, and he never imagined it would be this. He has never felt Lavrans fully accepted him and he has also had to live in the shadow or Simon, so what Kristin said to him about him sitting in Lavrans seat, and is not the man he was, surely hit a blow to him.
They both are clearly frustrated and fed up with their lives. Erlend fleeing to Haugen seems fitting. It is a place he can feel free, he owns it himself, and does not need anyone to deal with. He can come and go as he pleases. He can live without any order or responsibility, which is what he has always done. Erlend is a free spirit, and his love for Kristin hampered him. As long as she was being as reckless as he was, resisting her parents, her sneaking around, and even allowing him to lure her to the brothel, this was exciting for Erlend. He thought their lives could be this exciting rebellious life forever, while Kristin was seeing they would in time settle down and be a family as she grew up in. These two were never meant to be. They gave up everything to be together, and yet once they were together they just could not find happiness.
It's kind of like, be careful what you wish for. Anytime you have to give up, and go against everything you have lived for, for another person, it is likely it will never bring you lifelong happiness.
-
That's a good analysis. They also both have some characteristics I think of as being rather Norwegian. They take offense at remarks easily, but then stop there, don't try to make it right, but just glower about it. They're both stubborn, Kristin especially, and Kristin never forgets a wound, no matter big or little.
I have to work very hard to get inside their heads, their approach is so very different from mine.
-
Simon has reconciled with his brother, but he's wounded on his way home, and it turns septic.
For years Simon has fantasized that on his deathbed he will tell Kristin at last how much he has loved her all these years; the thought is a big comfort to him. He gets his chance. Kristin is there, and he's postponed the Priest's visit so he can do this before he confesses. But he doesn't do it. Instead, he makes Kristin swear to visit Erlend, and bring him Simon's apology for the quarrel, with an admission of being at fault. And he tells Kristin at great length how much her family needs the couple to reconcile and live together again.
Why does he do this? He seems surprised himself at what he has done.
-
I think Simon chose to tell Kristin to promise she will go to Erlend and reconcile, because he truly loves her, and wants her to be happy. Simon has done many things throughout his life for her happiness, in spite of his own loss and others. He cares about her sons, he really does want this family to have a chance for happiness. He also knows Erlend will never make the first move.
It is difficult to get inside Kristin and Erlend's head. They want each other, but they do not want the life each other seems to want. I said it early on, and I'll say it again, I just don't see a happily ever after for Kristin and Erlend. He has hurt her in so many ways, for so many years. I think she could forgive him, but I don't think she can ever forget, and so it just resurfaces when he hurts her again. This does seem to fall in line with the Norse way. Her sons are her world, if she feels Erlend is separating her from her sons, I think they will never be able to reconcile. She will fight to end for her sons.
It was so very tender the conversations between Simon and Kristin, but I had a sadness for Ramborg, even to his death, he put Kristin first. Simon reminded me of Lavrans, trying to explain how his love for Ramborg was in spite of his feelings for Kristin, much like Lavrans tried in the end to reassure Ragnfrid he loved her as much as he knew how. Bittersweet. What a way for Simon to die.
-
Yes, Kristin too recognizes that Erlend doesn't make first moves.
-
Bellamarie, are you finishing Debtors yet? Just let me know when you're ready to talk about the rest.
-
Oh my heavens! I just finished Debtors. Undset sure is wrapping things up quickly in this book. It did not surprise me Erlend is living as dirty and uncaring in Haugen, as he did at Husaby. Kristin and Erlend seem to catch one last attempt at their youthful, carefree love, these days she decides to stay with him.
He surely is determined not to return to "her" manor. How can he expect her to leave the children to care for Jorundgaard, and bring the two youngest sons here to live with him? He is as selfish now, as he was in the first days he expected her to sneak away and join him in a brothel, to spend time with him.
So much happened in these chapters, where to begin?
-
Yes, tightly packed chapters, and it's hard to know where to start.
How can he expect her to leave the children to care for Jorundgaard, and bring the two youngest sons here to live with him?
He can't reasonably. You said it all when you said neither is willing to live the life the other is willing to live. Somewhere in here Kristin remarks about her nurturing style of loving that that wasn't the kind of loving that Erlend wanted, but it was what she had. And each of them keeps working against his/her own interests. Whenever one makes a concession or a conciliatory gesture, the first response of the other is to make a bitter, hurtful remark about one of their grudges. The conciliator then pulls back, and they both start sulking again. Even at the end, when Erlend comes back to defend Kristin, she greets him stonily--not surprising. But as soon as he is wounded, she is tender again.
Erlend seems to have come to his senses a bit at the end. When his son Lavrans comes to fetch him home, and describes her grief, he says "May God help me, I've been a foolish man." And when he sees Kristin, he says "Kristin, my dearest love. Oh, Kristin, I know I've come to you much too late." Who knows if that would have lasted if he hadn't been killed.
-
Erlend,
"Kristin, my dearest love. Oh, Kristin, I know I've come to you much too late."
I was very frustrated at these words Erlend spoke, a little too late indeed. I don't believe for a minute it would have lasted, had he not died. Kristin and Erlend always seem to come through for each other in the time of a crisis, but when it comes to living life, simple and day to day, that is where they part ways.
These last chapters truly upset me. Kristin learns she is pregnant, yet decides to keep it a secret. She refuses to even approach Erlend to let him know the baby dies, even though he hears of it, he does nothing to come and comfort her. It seems out of character for him to come to defend Kristin's honor of being accused of adultery with Ulf, since he never could find it in himself to come help her in any other matter.
Erlend lived a prideful, stubborn life. He could never seem to give Kristin what she needed most, her love for him kept her in constant turmoil with her family, friends and faith. He didn't mind living off on his own, refusing to help her on the farm, and raising their sons. Him riding into town like some gallant knight to save his wife's honor was a bit much. Then when he does arrive the two of them spar. Erlend then spars with the men, when they are trying to help, he is asked, "Understand you not, Kristin, that tis time the master stayed at home on the farm? You at least ought to understand it," he said to Erlend. But Erlend struck the other over the hand, and drove the stallion on so that the old man reeled. A couple of men sprang forward. Erlend shouted: "Away with you! Naught have you to do with my affairs and my wife's__and I am no master of a farm; never will I be bound to any stead like a steer in its stall. If I own not the manor here, at least the manor owns not me__!" Kristin turned full round upon the man and shrieked: ""Ay, ride! Ride, ride to the devil, whither you have driven me and flung all you have ever owned or laid your hands on__
Erlend is more concerned of with being rebellious, and defending his own position of never being a master to any manor, than he is caring what his words will do to Kristin.
This author showed the stark differences between Simon and Erlend, and their feelings for Kristin, right up to their last breaths they took.
Simon on his death bed wanted only to say whatever he could to help Kristing find peace and happiness, his death was honorable, loving and compassionate. He wanted to have forgiveness and make all his sins right with God, and those he had ever offended.
Erlend's death was dishonorable, til the end he was a selfish man/husband. Even on his death bed he could not give Kristin what she wanted to bring her peace and happiness, in allowing the priest to give him his last rites: pg. 904 "Yes," said Erlend, vehemently. "If so be God will be gracious to me__for the last office I will not take from this priest that spread lying tales of you__" "Erlend," she begged, softly. "For Jesus' sake__let us fetch Sira Solmund to you. God is God, whatever priest may bear him to us__" "No!" "Erlend, Erlend__think of your soul!"
It was okay for Erlend to shame her, dishonor her, be unfaithful to her, strike her, and abandon her, but he refuses last rites because a priest told lies of Kristin, when only because of Erlend's behavior, were these lies possible to be considered as truth at all.
So where does Kristin go from here? She is without both men who she loved, and who has been important in her life.
-
PatH., Are we ready to go on to final part The Cross? It is about 135 pages long. What do you think, separate it, or go all the way to the end? Makes me no difference since I will have some down time tonight and tomorrow.
So what do you think will happen with Kristin, before we begin the last pages.
I see her staying on at the manor, and turning closer to her faith, now that she no longer has any distractions, and the church and townsfolk will see she did not commit adultery with Ulf. By her wanting Erlend to let Sira Solmund to give him the last rites, she shows she is not going to hold ill feelings with the priest, or the church. Kristin has asked many times for forgiveness, so she of all people would be willing to forgive those who were involved in the lies. She knows her actions, and Erlend's gave enough suspicion for people to come to the conclusion of the affair.
-
Sure, let's go on. I'd say read the whole, thing, but you can pick. I can't speculate about what will happen to Kristin because I know. Don't forget I've already read the book.
By her wanting Erlend to let Sira Solmund to give him the last rites, she shows she is not going to hold ill feelings with the priest, or the church.
It's Sira Solmund who has harbored ill feelings. It started when he first became the parish priest, and Lavrans' testimony was against him in a dispute over land records. As a result, he neglected his duty to tell Kristin what people were saying about her; the bishop scolded him for it. Kristin probably doesn't care for him, but she has the sense not to confuse the man with the holy office, and she doesn't want Erlend to die unconfessed.
-
Oh PatH., I forgot you have already read the ending. You sure did good not letting anything out, I'd never be able to. I think that is how we lose people in our discussions, they read ahead and then drop out because they are afraid of commenting and letting out spoilers. I suppose it's hard to not form opinions after knowing what really happens, and then try to post chapters back. This did prove to be a very lengthy trilogy. Okay I will finish up and be back tomorrow.
Yes, Sira Solmund seemed to harbor ill feelings, and so it made it easy for him to fall in with the gossip.
-
Okay, I finished the book and tried to keep track of the whereabouts of everyone at the ending of the story:
This final part, The Cross, begins 4 years after Erlend died, and it proceeds to Kristin's death, which is just a few years later by my estimation. In no particular order I tried to give a glimpse of where all the sons ended up:
1. Gaute remained the farmer of Jorundgaard, he takes Jofrid Helgesdatter from her father. She and Gaute come to the manor to live, Kristin welcomes her warmly and even prepares a bridal bed for her even though they are not married. Jofrid is pregnant, gives birth to a son they name Erlend. They wed, Kritin gives the keys to the manor over to Gaute, who then gives them to Jofrid. Gaute gave Helge Duk, Jofrid's father sixteen marks in gold in amends for Jofrid’s honour, and for carrying her off strong-hand. Kristin and Jofrid got along well until after the wedding, then Jofrid began putting Kristin in her place, after Kristin let Jofrid know they never turned away beggars. Jofrid became jealous of Kristin and Gaute’s closeness. Gaute is a cheiftan and has gained all honor and rules the whole parish and somewhat beyond and Jofrid rules Gaute.
2. Lavrans in Iceland at the end of the story.
3. Naakkve becomes a monk, with his brother Bjorgulf, since he promised he would never leave Bjorgulf.
4. Munan died the year after Erlend from a sickness
5. Ivar (twin)married Signe Gamalsdatter an old widow.
6. Bjorgulf eye sight worsened entered the convent.
7. Skule (twin) went with Sir Munan and Inge Fluga to serve Brynhild Fluga’s son. He later became Bjarne Erlingsson’s man, among those who did not do anything to help Erlend when in prison. He went in Sir Bjarne’s train to Sweden, and to the war in Russia. He liked to travel and got to meet friends Erlend had spoken of. The most like his father.
8. Orm died young, Naakkve asks Kristin for the cross that was Orm's, since he will become a monk.
9. Erlend the baby died.
Ulf Haldorsson got married to Jardtrud and went back to Trondheim country. He was with Kristin when she died. Pg. 1042 “I’m thinking, Sira Eiliv __I will give some land to the church here__and a beaker of Lavrans Bjorgulfsson’s that she gave me__to found a mass for her__and my foster-sons__and for him, Erlend, my kinsman__”
Kristin decides to leave the manor and go to the convent in Nidaros, and wants to become a nun. She travels to the same convent Naakkva and Bjorguf are at and gets to see them. Kristin hears of a plot to sacrifice a young boy, and decides to get the sisters to help her save his life. After she and Ulf find the dead mother and gives her a Christian burial, Kristin gets the black death illness and dies.
Pg. 1039 “The cross,” she whispered, and painfully drew forth her father’s gilded cross. It had come to her mind that yesterday she had promised to make a gift for the soul’s weal of that poor Steinunn. She had not remembered then that she had no possessions on earth any more. She owned naught that she could give, saving the cross she had had of her father__and then her bridal ring. She wore that on her finger still. She drew it off and gazed at it. It lay heavy in her hand; 'twas pure gold, set with great red stones. Erlend__she thought__and it came upon her now 'twere like she should give this away__her eyes in pain and held it out to Ulf: "To whom would you give this?" he asked, low, and as she did not answer: "Mean you I should give it to Skule__?" Kristin shook her head, her eyes tight closed. "Steinunn__I__promised__masses for her__" She opened her eyes, and sought with them the ring where it lay in the smith's dusky palm. And her tears burst forth in s swift stream, for it seemed to her that never before had she understood to the full what it betokened. The life the ring had wed her to, that she had complained against, had murmured at, had raged at and defied__none the less she had loved it so, joyed in it so, both in good days and in evil, that not one day had there been when 'twould not have seemed hard to give it back to God, nor one grief that she could have forgone without regret__
The semblance the mark of "M" the first letter of Mary Virgin's holy name, on her finger where the imprint was, seemed to bring Kristin much comfort as she lay dying.
And the last clear thought that formed in her brain was that she should die ere this mark had time to vanish__and she was glad. It seemed to her to be a mystery that she could not fathom, but which she knew most surely none the less, that God had held her fast in a covenant made for her without her knowledge by a love poured out upon her richly__and in despite of her self-will, in despite of her heavy, earthbound spirit, somewhat of this love had become part of her, had wrought in her like sunlight in the earth, had brought forth increase which not even the hottest flames of fleshly love nor its wildest bursts of wrath could lay waste wholly. A handmaiden of God had she been__a wayward, unruly servant, oftenest an eye-servant in her prayers and faithless in her heart, slothful and neglectful, impatient under correction, but little constant in her deeds__yet had he held her fast in his service, and under the glittering golden ring a mark had been set secretly upon her, showing that she was His handmaid, owned by the Lord and King who was now coming, borne by the priest's anointed hands, to give her freedom and salvation__
Kristin finally has the peace, tranquility, forgiveness and love she has always lamented for. She realizes, God had never abandoned her, even though there were times she felt she had abandoned Him. Her faith and love in God, sustained her through her life.
God knew Kristin's heart all along. God would always be with her, and welcome her with open arms. God is a forgiving God, always ready and waiting for us to turn to Him. We must learn by our mistakes, good or bad choices, we will reap the consequences of our actions. God gives us the freewill to make choices, with the clear knowledge our actions will always affect ourself and others around us. We may choose to turn from our faith and family, but ultimately, they will always be there in the end to receive us when we come back.
As I said in the beginning and will end with....this book was about human nature, imperfections, the Seven Deadly Sins (Pride, Gluttony, Envy, Lust, Anger, Greed and Sloth, these transgressions which are fatal to spiritual progress.) and it's also about all the emotions God places in us as humans, and about forgiveness.
-
Yes, Kristin has found her peace at last, and the whole book is a journey, moving from the physical to the spiritual. It will come as no surprise that two years after she finished the book, Undset became a Catholic. Surely we are seeing a bit of Undset's own struggles in the book.
With the last of her strength before she falls ill, Kristin performs two acts of mercy, saving the boy and carrying the body of his mother back for burial. As she is dying, she remembers that she had promised money for masses. She looks at the only two things of value she has left, the cross and her wedding ring. She looks at them both, and chooses to donate the ring. What does this mean? Then she dies, pleased that the ring's imprint won't fade before she's gone.
I've got more to say in a bit.
-
I have always seen this book as Kristin's spiritual journey. She faced many trials and tribulations, yet she never let go of always wanting her relationship with God. As long as Erlend was alive, I believe she would have never been able to choose to fully let him go, even though it was fatal to her spiritual progress, just like the seven deadly sins.
I thought about the fact she decided to give the wedding ring, and keep The Cross, which is the name of the final book. The Cross symbolizes not only the faith of her father, but also her faith in God the Father. The wedding ring symbolizes her marriage to Erlend.
Is it possible her final choice in life, was finally putting her faith, and love of God, before her love for Erlend?
After she gave the ring to Ulf, she sees the "M" mark on her finger, and realizes God had chosen her as His handmaiden.
I think it is irony. Erlend's wedding ring, left the imprint of God's love. The acts of mercy, that Kristin performed in her last hours before dying, is what I believe, earned her a place into sainthood. This could be why there is a statue of her in Norway. Since she is a fictional character, who committed merciful acts, what better way to honor her, since she could not be canonized a saint in real life.
-
I was reading some remarks from a discussion I found last night online and those who have read Kristin Lavransdatter recommend reading: Hamsun's "Growth of the Soil" and Rolvaag's "Giants in the Earth."
For me personally I have to say I found this trilogy a bit too long, very depressing and dark. I seriously can't recall one light and funny spot in the entire three books. Kristin's constant lamenting about her sins seemed a bit excessive. The one character I liked the most was Lavrans. He was respected and liked by all, a gentle caring man, a wonderful father, a man who held his faith most high (although learning he thrashed himself in private was a bit much) and a hard working man who cared for those with less. Even though he was not able to love Ragnfrid with passion, there was no denying he loved her as best as he was capable. When Lavrans knew he was dying I felt such compassion and love from Lavrans and Ragnfrid's words to each other. I felt he and Ragnfrid truly came together as husband and wife, heart and soul. But as everything in this book went.... a little too late.
Just a side note * When I read on pg. 715 But when he was setting in order his father-in-law's private chests, at the bottom of the book-chest he had found a long, narrow, little wooden box, and it lay such a scourge as in the cloisters they call a "discipline"; the plaited leather thongs were darkly flecked: it might be with blood. Simon had burned it__with a kind of sorrowful awe: he felt he had come upon something in the other's life which Lavrans had not meant that living soul should know of.
This reminded me.......I have a sister in law who was in a convent back in the 50's, she was to take her final vows to become a nun and decided to not follow through. She has lived with torment and lamentation since her days in the convent, and shared with me they beat parts of their own body, to absolve them of their sexual desires and sins.
Undset did extensive research throughout her entire writing of this book, covering accurately the history of the times, politics, behaviours and religion. Also reading I found the Norse women were pretty much outspoken, was at this time allowed to own property, and were very much in control of their families, holding true to the personalities of Kristin, Ragnfrid, Lady Aashild, Eline, Sunniva, and even Jofrid.
-
I had to read Giants in the Earth in high school, and it made a big impression on me. Many rears later I reread it with pleasure. It's definitely got similarities to Kristin in tone and mood, though it's a very different story--Norwegian fishermen becoming pioneer settlers in North Dakota. One of the characters is plagued with the same sort of guilt about the start of her marriage as Kristin, though it wasn't as big a deal. I've meant to try Hamsun, but haven't gotten around to it.
Kristin's constant lamenting about her sins seemed a bit excessive.
That's how I felt too. I had to cheer inside when one of the characters reminded her it's a sin to keep on brooding over sins when you've confessed them and done penance.
-
There are all sorts of interesting details about how people lived then. There certainly wasn't much privacy; people slept in the same room with others, and often just went into a corner to undress. Men carried their table knives in sheaths on their belts, along with weapons. But it never says what women did about table knives. They drank a lot (even children drank ale), and were pretty rowdy when drunk. There was a separate house just for women's use. And on and on.
-
PatH., How did you like the ending of this story? Did you get the impression Ulf had loved Kristin, by his remarks in the end?
For me, I would never have guessed Kristin would leave her family, or the manor, and go to live in the convent. That was an unexpected surprise. I would have expected her to live out her years enjoying her grandchildren. But then, since Erlend was gone, and her children no longer needed her, she was finally free to live a religious life, she could be happy with.
-
Did you get the impression Ulf had loved Kristin, by his remarks in the end?
Yes I did. He's another who loves Kristin knowing he can't have her, and works hard to make her life easier.
Some loose ends: How many of Kristin's sons do we think survived the plague? We know that Naakve and Bjorgulf died of it, and Skule will probably not get it, since all of his crew has died already and he remains well. We don't know about the others. I sort of remember a hint that things weren't as bad in the countryside, but I can't find it now. Anyone who lasted out the first wave was probably OK, as there weren't recurring waves in Norway, as there were in most of Europe.
-
Since I read it did not get to Iceland, that would mean Lavrans was probably not affected. I am thinking since Undset did not mention any other sons but Naakkve and Bjorgulf dieing of it, the others survived, even though an article I read said that it "Swept away around 60% of Europe's population.
The data is sufficiently widespread and numerous to make it likely that the Black Death swept away around 60 per cent of Europe’s population. It is generally assumed that the size of Europe’s population at the time was around 80 million. This implies that that around 50 million people died in the Black Death. This is a truly mind-boggling statistic. It overshadows the horrors of the Second World War, and is twice the number murdered by Stalin’s regime in the Soviet Union. As a proportion of the population that lost their lives, the Black Death caused unrivalled mortality.
This dramatic fall in Europe’s population became a lasting and characteristic feature of late medieval society, as subsequent plague epidemics swept away all tendencies of population growth. Inevitably it had an enormous impact on European society and greatly affected the dynamics of change and development from the medieval to Early Modern period. A historical turning point, as well as a vast human tragedy, the Black Death of 1346-53 is unparalleled in human history.
- See more at: http://www.historytoday.com/ole-j-benedictow/black-death-greatest-catastrophe-ever#sthash.YhrWji48.dpuf
-
I returned my book to the library today. I think we just about covered everything possible from the Vikings, Norse Saga, religion, family, traditions, betrayal, lust, love, faith, loyalty, unspoken love, death, witchcraft, war, women's rights and attitudes, and even fairies and elfs. And I am sure I missed many other topics we managed to throw in. I enjoyed discussing this story with all of you. It was a lengthy trilogy, and I can understand why many dropped out, I grew tired of it as well at times.
PatH., I want to thank you for being our moderator for Kristin Lavransdatter, and thank you for agreeing to continue with the trilogy, and for seeing it through with me, when it only became the two of us. It was a bit dark for me, but I am glad I was able to finish the trilogy. I always enjoy your words of wisdom, in all our discussions. I'll check back in the event you may have any other comments, but if you are ready to close the discussion, I too have no more to add.
-
Thank you too, Bellamarie, for sticking with it to the end even though you found it dark. Your participation always adds a lot. Just you and me, and our silent partner, Halcyon at the end. I found it a rewarding discussion, and there certainly was a lot to find in the book.
I did have one more thing to say about Erlend, but I'm busy packing for a visit to grandchildren, and we're about to get a massive thunderstorm, so I might not have either the time or the internet capability.
-
If you find the time, please post, I am always anxious to hear more views on Erlend. I could not find it in me to like him. By any era, or any standard he just did not measure up to a man I could respect. I just can't give him a pass on his childhood, because his mother spoiled him and he knew it. He grew up feeling entitled, and for me once a man strikes a woman, and abandons her, I refuse to excuse him. Kristin deserved so much more, yet he warned her in the beginning. But in the end, she realizes it was more harder, than she ever could have imagined.
Safe travels PatH., your grandchildren are very blessed to have you. I spent the day with my 4 & 7 yr old grandchildren at the movie theater. Went to see Inside Out. A movie about feelings, as Zak told me.
-
Special Announcement
Our website will be down, beginning Monday evening, June 29, GMT, for a large update.
Please do not post at this time as your post will probably disappear.
We do not know how long it will take the computer expert to load this update and have it working.
The website will not look as it has when it comes up until we tweak it, so please be patient. Please continue to check back for news. We hope to be up and functioning by Tuesday, but if not, it shouldn't be too much longer.
Thank you for your patience
|