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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvilla.jpg) |
"The Night Villa: Carol Goodman’s luminous prose and superb storytelling will keep you entertained into the late hours.”
–Nancy Pickard
“The pleasure of a Carol Goodman novel is in her enviable command of the classical canon–and the deft way she [writes] a book that’s light enough for a weekend on the beach but literary enough for a weekend in the Hamptons.” –Chicago Tribune | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodman.jpg) |
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News Flash! Carol Goodman, award winning author of The Night Villa, will attend our June discussion of her book. If you like mystery mixed with mythology, cultural and religious history and intrigue then this is the story for you.
The novel is a multi layered mystery set in the exploration of an ancient Roman villa. Carol Goodman is a former Latin teacher who knows her stuff, and since we met with her in NYC, we know she is an incredibly responsive person. This will be "one for the Books.." Do join us June 1!
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/NYC30AUTHORGROUP300.jpg)
Our meeting in NYC with Carol | . | Schedule:
- Pages 4 - 112 June 1 - 7
- Pages 113 - 204 June 8 - 14
- Pages 204 - 291 June 15 - 22
- Pages 292 / finish June 23 - 30
Links
- NYC Interview with Carol Goodman ~ Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
- Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
- The Night Villa Reader's Group Questions & Topics for Discussion (http://www.carolgoodman.com/Content/The_Night_Villa_Readersand_39_Group_Questions_and_Topics_for_Discussion.asp)
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Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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Welcome to what we hope will be one of the highlights of our Books year on SeniorLearn, our first Author Event: in which an author posts right in our book club discussion, talking to our readers!! And you are invited to pull up a chair and join right in!
Andrea and I are excited to welcome you and Carol Goodman to talk about her book The Night Villa on June 1. We hope to have a good turnout!
As you can see in the heading we met Carol in September at our SeniorNet Book's 10th Anniversary Celebration in NYC, and found her (and her mother whose birthday it was) to be delightful and very responsive, it was a glorious day. She's wonderful, you're in for a treat!
You don't have to have a background in classics or Latin to enjoy this book, and the best part, well one of the best parts, is when you leave, you'll have learned something new (you can't help learing something) AND unlike many authors writing about classical stuff, Carol, a former Latin teacher, really knows her stuff: you'll have the real skinny on the latest developments going, and a whopping good tale in the business.
Andrea has divided the book into sections (see heading above with the pictures) and we'll only talk about that section that week, I think there will be a LOT to discuss! WITH the author right HERE!
What a trip. We cordially invite you to join us. Please sign in your interest, what fun!! The curtain will rise June 1, join us!
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Hooray! Once again, we get to spend more time with Carol Goodman. We found her delightful, enthusiastic, funny and warm. This will be a treat, especially to have her here with us to answer our many questions.
Welcome aboard, come in sit down and enjoy this intriguing story of Sophie Chase, another classics insturctor. Come June 1st, we will be surrounded by teachers, folks, so I will do my utmost to behave. ::)
I am so delighted that we will have some of Ginny's Latin students. Do tell us a bit about your attraction to Carol's novel.
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I am not familiar with this author- but another reason this site is wonderful, followed the links and look forward to reading Night Villa and her other works.
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Hello Pei Li- you are the first to arrive and I salute you.
We are pleased that you've shown an interest in this novel and I promise you, you won't be disappointed.
I have read every single book written by Carol Goodman and the more I read, the better Carol writes. What a team we'd make, I'd say. ;D
Make sure you mark NOTIFY at the bottom of this screen so that any post that has been entered you will be alerted to that fact. It will then bring you right back into the discussion.
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I've got the book and will be ready to go in June; won't start reading for a while yet, so it'll be fresh in my memory for the discussion.
I haven't forgotten how much it added when Karen Joy Fowler joined us to discuss her book "The Jane Austen Book Club".
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Yes, I've got the book too and won't begin to read it until closer to the discussion. I haven't read any of Carol Goodman's other books but think I'll look for one at the library tomorrow. It might give me a'feel' for her style...
Looking forward to June 1 - and of course, in the meantime I'll be looking in to the prediscussion.
Thanks Ginny and ALF for hosting - and for the added luxury of having the author present during the discussion.
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Oh wow what a great group assembling, whoopee!
Pei Li, welcome welcome, I add my greetings to Andrea's. We hope you will enjoy this experience, it's not every day you get to discuss a book with a prize winning author!
Welcome, welcome, Pat and Gum!! Yahoo!
And Pat is right, Karen Joy Fowler was great in that discussion, AND this year we also had on our fledgling new site, Annie Barrows, who very kindly responded to questions offline of the huge best seller The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society!
Wow!
We're excited about the generosity of our authors and our wonderful readers. And here we're coming together to make this our first Author Event online and we hope there will be more. I know with this international group (Gum is in Australia!) and our discerning readers, we'll have a ball!
Welcome, ALL!!
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Of course I want to be there, autographed copy of NIght Villa in hand. Carol Goodman is a delight, both as speaker and author. I'm so glad I was able to hear her when she spoke at our book get-together in New York, and I thoroughly enjoyed reading her Lake of Dead Languages.
Looking forward to the discussion in June, especially since the author will join us.
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I got my book and only read the beginning, it starts like a lion, then I stopped reading and will start again closer to June. It will be my first time I don't read the entire book before a discussion.
I love historical novels, Pompeï and The Source were absolutely unforgettable. I look forward to this discussion and will pass it on to my daughter who has time to read only when she is on vacation in the summer.
À bientôt donc.
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There's Eloise! I am so happy that you are going to join us. You always make me think in a different direction and I love that about your posts.
pedln- my copy is autographed as well. Isn't this exciting?
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I'm looking forward to discussing The Night Villa with all of you and with the author too! What a treat. I've read all of Carol Goodman's books. Her rich "back story" in each of them has sparked an interest in me to learn more about the various arts and myths that she references. I love a book that is exciting and compelling on multi-levels.
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Pedln, Eloise, and Marcie, HOORAY! I am so glad to see you here!
Wow with this group we could discuss the phone book and tremendously enjoy the conversation, much less this book. How exciting!!
I do look forward to good book discussions and with the people here already we should have one of our best ever, PLUS we have Carol Goodman herself who is likewise, as you will learn, fabulous!!
Whoopee!!
I hope if you all are reading this, you'll sign right in and join us, it should be the greatest fun and definitely one for the Books!
Everyone is welcome!
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Hi, all,
I've not met with the book club previously but read Night Villa when Ginny first mentioned that it will be on the agenda. Sounds like a great discussion coming up, so I'd like to listen in.
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Athena- we would love to have you with us for this discusion. Are you one of Ginny's students? Were you in NY City when we toured the museum that day with some of the Latin students?
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Hello all,
I recognize Pedln and Ginny from Latin classes; however, I would be new to everyone else since I haven't been in a book discussion before. As Ginny mentioned, you don't have to have a background in Latin to enjoy this book (I've now read the whole book), but I have to say I now feel priviledged to understand more about the culture I've been studying. This book has nearly been an epiphany for me.
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Athena- we would love to have you with us for this discusion. Are you one of Ginny's students? Were you in NY City when we toured the museum that day with some of the Latin students?
I wanted to go on the NYC trip but didn't feel up to making the commitment last year. Maybe this year? And, yes, I am in Ginny's class and have been learning from her since Latin classes were first offered by SeniorNet. Our Latin class is wonderful and Ginny is a great teacher. I got Night Villa from the library and will get it again before the discussion.
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Well, yet another mystery, first the discussion disappears, then my post disappears, this is exciting! :) Puts us in the mood for some archaeological mystery and boy have we got a good one coming up!
Norma! Welcome welcome! I am so looking forward to your telling us which parts of the book struck you the most, welcome to the Books! Loved your post!
Joyce (Athena!) welcome, welcome. Thank you for the kind words. Joyce is another super addition (with Norma) to our Books discussions as she is a retired Professor of English (she won't tell you that, so I will). I am truly looking forward to her comments!!
Lots of plots here and sub plots, we need to keep track of all of them.
This is super! Everyone is welcome (a slight scare this morning when it seemed this discussion had disappeared, but it's hiding, we'll get it out, the only secrets we need in this discussion are in the book.
Welcome, All !!
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Have received the book and took a first look. Am another of Ginny's Latin students.
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Welcome, Sally, so good to see you here!!!
My goodness what a great turn out!
Everybody new to these discussions, please note the schedule in the heading, we'll only discuss the first 100 or so pages in the first week and so on, so we can have a nice in depth discussion. So even if you have read all of the book, or if you've only read that week's pages we'll cover, we'll only talk about what's in the pages scheduled for that week.
Can't wait for June 1!
Welcome, Everybody! You don't need any prior knowledge to read, enjoy, and discuss this book!
I was thinking today how topical it is, actually.
Welcome, All!
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You don't need any prior knowledge to read, enjoy, and discuss this book!
That is a very good thing. :D
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Au courant again eh Ginny?
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Yes it's eerie actually how often our Books seem to be talking about things, books, topics, issues, which then seem to appear all over everywhere, and are hot, we're really somehow (I never have understood why) au courant with our taste (or we just have good taste, period. :) ) hahaha.
I do wish, just once, I could solve a mystery before the end. I don't think I ever have, I don't know why.
This one is going to be great fun!
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Ginny,
There are lots of mysteries in this story. I almost uncovered two of them, but talked myself out of them. The most thrilling part to me was a better understanding of how the ancient mystery religions were performed.
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I haven't read Carol Goodman before so picked up a copy of The Seduction of Water to get a 'feel' for her writing before we begin this discussion. Not quite what I was expecting but good writing...In a way she reminds me a little of Frank McCourt ... The Night Villa is ready and waiting but I haven't started it yet for fear of reading it right through to the end in one giant gulp - it just looks so interesting....
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I know it! And talking of au courant, if you take the Wall Street Journal in the states (since we have an international audience here, you all may not get it, but I expect it's the same news item everywhere) the cover of yesterday's Weekend Journal IS The Next Age of Discovery: "As scholars race to digitize crumbling archives, they're unearthing new finds-- from lost gospels to an alternate 'Medea.'"
This is followed by the news that
This summer, a professor of computer science at the University of Kentucky plans to test 3-D X-ray scanning on two papyrus scrolls from Pompeii that were charred by volcanic ash in 79 A.D. Scholars have never before been able to read or even open the scrolls, which now sit in the French National Institute in Paris.
By taking high-resolution digital images in 14 different light wavelengths, ranging from infrared to ultraviolet, Oxford scholars are reading bits of papyrus that were discovered in 1898 in an ancient garbage dump in central Egypt. So far, researchers have digitized about 80% of the collection of 500,000 fragments, dating from the 2nd century BC to the 8th century AD. The texts include fragments of unknown works by famous authors of antiquity, lost gospels and early Islamic manuscripts.
Oh boy, what will they find of Roman Egypt in those records? Maybe where Cleopatra and Antony are buried?
It also says: Recent Breakthroughs:
Digitization projects are also bringing previously unknown manuscripts to light- and to the Web, where scholars and curious internet surfers alike can look at high-resolution digital images of new discoveries from the ancient world.
Wow! Just imagine what they will discover in the yet unexcavated parts of Pompeii, not to mention Stabiae, and thanks to the new technology, we also may be ready to peer on something never seen for more than 2000 years! WOW!!
Just imagine! Talk about au courant! Talk about Indiana Jones! Pack your pith helmet and shovel, we're off on a high virtual adventure, which is making news today!
Everyone is welcome!
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This is going to be a great discussion. My book is on its way. In the meantime I am reading The Seduction of Water which I am enjoying immensely.
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Margie (Frybabe) welcome, welcome! I am so glad to hear you're also enjoying the Seduction of Water, I agree, this one will be one for the Books!!!
So glad to see you here~!
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Is it June yet?
Oh no, I am still in Pakistan with Greg Mortenson, sharing in 3 Cups of Tea.How will I find my way to Italy?
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Greetings,( Salve, too!) Another Latin student on board.
I was with the group in NYC last fall when we had our meeting with Carol Goodman - a delightful person and a fine author who has the right background to bring into her books. I've read 3 of them: The Seduction of Water, The Drowning Tree and The Lake of Dead Languages. I had started the Night Villa but when I discovered that we would be reading it as a group, I stopped - but that was a bit of a wrench since it's pretty exciting! Now I'd better start all over back at the beginning!
So far, my favorite is The Seduction of Water - am very fond of the Catskill area and old hotels. The Drowning Tree runs a close second with me because of the material on stained glass and how the windows are constructed. I have watched my husband do 3 of them - hard, hard work and tough on the fingers for sure!
The Night Villa will probably be the champ because of the setting and the history - I can hardly wait to start!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks, Ginny!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ginny just called me and she broke her leg last night. She was home alone, dragged herself into the house, and then got to a phone to call the EMTs. She is to see the orthopedic docs tomorrow for a hard cast. Right now she can't get to her computer.
She's hoping everything will be in good shape by the time Night Villa starts. She asked me to thank Joan R for her excitement and coming over from Latin for this discussion!
Ginny will be here as soon as she's able!
Keep her in your thoughts and prayers as she sees the docs and gets her leg fixed and healed!!
jane
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Oh, how awful for Ginny. What about her summer travel plans? I hope she is not in pain.
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OH NO!!!
Nurse Ratchett to the rescue. I will give her a call. Not to worry we can do this Ginny. Just get your leg looked tended to and we will all be fine.
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Ohmygosh, how dreadful. What an ordeal to get to the phone. I hope they are tying her together properly and she isn't in pain. Ginny, for what my poor prayers are worth, I'm winging them to you.
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How awful - Poor Ginny - just what were you doing... or thinking of? I know it's a long way for them to 'wing' it but my love and prayers are on their way... Take care Ginny
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How terrible Ginny, it must have hurt a lot to drag yourself in the house to call the ambulance.
Prayers are going your way.
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I just called and spoke with Ginny's son Ryan. She will see the doctor today and I will keep everybody posted.
Please do not let poor Ginny's misfortune frighten away a single one of you. She would be so disappointed if she felt that her breaking her leg would interfere with this discussion that she has looked forward to for such a long time.
She is so excited about having her Latin students here to join in and meet our delightful Carol Goodman.
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Oh Ginny, we all feel for you, and it hurts. The thought of you having to drag yourself into the house and get to the phone, sounds awful. I'm glad that part is over now. And I hope you're resting comfy someplace -- sofa, bed, recliner, and feeling no pain.
Hugs and best wishes coming your way from everyone.
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Good Morning.
I just finished a 45 minute conversation with my newest patient- GINNY!
She went to the orthopedist yesterday and he told her that the break was NOT where the ER doc had diagnosed it but in a smaller bone in her knee. This is not a "weight bearing bone" that was fractured but non the less it is very painful and she is unable to bear weight at this time. She was pleased that she does not have to undergo surgery, naturally, but concerned with us here at SeniorLearn.
She can not sit at her computer for awhile, her leg must stay with ice and elevation. It is difficult with these types of breaks to ascertain just how long she will be off her leg. She returns to the doc on June 1st.
She is in excellent spirits and I was able to pick on her considerably and make her laugh. ::)
Her trip in July is another issue but she will patiently see what the month brings. It will be at least 6 or 7 weeks post fracture by then.
She is comfortable that her Latin students are finishing up and hopes that they will post their interest in the Night Villa.
She swears that after June 1st she will try to get in there, but we will see.
A good dose of Oxycontin might help with that issue. ;D
She is resting well and says to say hello to everyone. Only Ginny could break her leg and say that it was her best Mother's Day EVER. Winston came back home, he was visiting his mother the day that she fell and her boys came to her house, to rally around the mama bear.
She said that she LOVED the attention but as for me-- I would prefer to keep all bones intact.
She hates the crutches and has found an alternative. (Don't ask.)
I will be calling her in a couple of days and report back en mass.
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Thanks, Andrea (it is Andrea?), for the update on Ginny. I can't imagine Ginny's not being able to use her computer. For her, that is probably worse than the broken bone. Joyce
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvilla.jpg) | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillatitle.jpg) |
"The Night Villa: Carol Goodman’s luminous prose and superb storytelling will keep you entertained into the late hours.”
–Nancy Pickard
“The pleasure of a Carol Goodman novel is in her enviable command of the classical canon–and the deft way she [writes] a book that’s light enough for a weekend on the beach but literary enough for a weekend in the Hamptons.” –Chicago Tribune | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodman.jpg) |
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News Flash! Carol Goodman, award winning author of The Night Villa, will attend our June discussion of her book. If you like mystery mixed with mythology, cultural and religious history and intrigue then this is the story for you.
The novel is a multi layered mystery set in the exploration of an ancient Roman villa. Carol Goodman is a former Latin teacher who knows her stuff, and since we met with her in NYC, we know she is an incredibly responsive person. This will be "one for the Books.." Do join us June 1!
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/NYC30AUTHORGROUP300.jpg)
Our meeting in NYC with Carol | . | Schedule:
- Pages 4 - 112 June 1 - 7
- Pages 113 - 204 June 8 - 14
- Pages 204 - 291 June 15 - 22
- Pages 292 / finish June 23 - 30
Links
- NYC Interview with Carol Goodman ~ Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
- Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
- The Night Villa Reader's Group Questions & Topics for Discussion (http://www.carolgoodman.com/Content/The_Night_Villa_Readersand_39_Group_Questions_and_Topics_for_Discussion.asp)
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Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
In the first week of June, Week I we will not talk about anything other than what is contained in the first 112 pages. If your question may pertain to what comes later on, we'll ask you to hold that particular one for the end, so as not to spoil it for the rest.
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TADA- I managed to get the heading in accurately for a change.
Take a bow Andrea.
::)
I will tell her that you said that Joyce. Right now, she is still experiencing a llot of pain so she's not comfortable enough to sit, read and type. She thinks it will be longer than I think it will be. My gauge says that she will want to know WHAT is going on in another week or so.
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I have just received an email from Carol Goodman. She is delighted that we have Latin students interested in this discussion. Marcie has graciously offered to help her learn how to navigate in and out-- so keep your fingers crossed she should be here shortly to say "hello."
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Salvete!
I'm so delighted to see so many people signed on to talk about The Night Villa! I had such a wonderful time at the meeting in New York. I wanted to thank you all for reading my book and for all your generous comments.
I'm looking forward to the discussion and I'm happy to answer any questions. (Except ones about the passive periphrastic in Latin! Sophie Chase is a much better classicist than I am.)
Valete,
Carol Goodman
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Welcome, Carol!! We're all very much looking forward to talking about THE NIGHT VILLA with you. I'm already struck by your comment that Sophie is a better classicist than you. :-) It must be a bit strange to think about a person you've invented. I think we're going to have a lot of fun in this discussion as well as learn a lot.
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I'm another of Ginny's Latin students, checking in. I have the book, but haven't started it yet for fear I'll finish it and be deep into something else before the discussion even starts.
I'm looking forward to this!
And, Ginny, when you read this, know that I've been thinking of you but have resisted sending you a get-well-soon email, thinking of all those emails piling up daily while you are computer deprived. Once things settle down for you, I will definitely send you an email: I have news!
Hmm, and Carol, I gather you'll answer Latin questions as long as they're not about the passive periphrastic? Hooray! (now you're in trouble ... ),
Cathy
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Welcome, Carol. It's so good of you to take some precious time to join us. I'm really looking forward to the discussion; I already have the book, but don't dare start it yet for fear I'll chomp straight through it.
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Oh gracious me, there you are. I am so excited about your joining in answering questions, dodging Latin students, et al. I'm just kidding,Carol, everyone is so pleased that you are gracious enough to come in here and meet with us.
Ginny will be so happy that you have found your way here.
Let us know right away if there are any questions, concerns or difficulties that you've faced while navigating our site. We have all the best computer gurus on our staff. (oops sorry ladies) Staff denotes pay $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
We have the best computer gurus who volunteer their services here at SeniorLearn.
The Latin students are piling up here, Carol, and they will keep you on your toes.
Welcome again from both Ginny and myself as well as the entire crew!!!! ;D
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You are most welcome Carol, I have read the first 80 pages of Night Villa and I will say nothing more about that until we officially start on June first. I am excited that I will be learning something about the ancient world. Thank you for joining our group.
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Welcome, Carol, and thank you for joining us. I so enjoyed the time you spent with us in New York, and am looking forward to the discussion and to reading my copy of Night Villa, which you so graciously signed for me.
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How good it is to have you joining the discussion Carol I'm NOT a Latin student (how I wish) but I have your book waiting. I'm currently reading The Seduction of Water which is very intriguing - sometimes I just can't put it down...
You may care to know that in Western Australia (where I live) your books are quite popular - they are available from the bookstores and are held by the libraries. I'm finding it hard to get my hands on Lake of Dead Languages which is in high demand.
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Carol, I can not imagine how thrilled you must have been when you read Gumtree's post from Western Australia. Australia! Holy smokes, around the other side of the world your writing is being celebrated and our very own Gumtree will spread the interest.
Pedln- I echo your relishing in the fact that once again we can meet with Carol. Didn't we have a grand time in NY City when she autographed our copies? Aren't we hot stuff? Our very own autographed copy of the illustrious writer and author of this novel? ;D
Hello Eloise- welcome aboard. I love it when Eloise reads with us, she has the knack of being able to perceive things through a refined and elegant scrutiny. Oft times, I scratch my head and wonder "Why didn't I think of that?"
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This is only marginally relevant, but when I was working as a chemist at the National Institutes of Health, one of the physicians there told me that one of the best things he did was to take Latin, because it taught him to think logically.
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Wow!!! I'm stunned and delighted by everyone's enthusiasm. This is great! And who knew I had a following in Australia? Not me! I always knew there was something about Australia that I liked.
I see Latin is in the news elsewhere today--in the NY Times op-ed piece on taking Latin off college diplomas. I remember I had to ask a professor what "Novi Eboraci" meant on my college diploma (New York), but I've never forgotten it since and it helped me recently recognize York on a map of Roman Britain.
I'm looking forward to the discussion. Thanks again, all of you, for reading!
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Pat I had 3 years of Latin in high school and loved it. My grandson, who graduates high school this year took that course for two years. If it did nothing else it helped with the break down of almost any word in the English language. I am not certain that it ever made me think more logically, though, I will have to think about that idea (logically of course.)
Carol- here you are again. Thanks so much for keeping track of us. We could easily get lost ourselves without Ginny at the helm.
I personally think that it is deplorable to remove Latin curriculum from high schools and feel that it should be recommended, not discouraged.
We will have many pertinent questions for Carol while exploring The Night Villa and Marcie will be in shortly to tell us the best way for us to accomplish this feat.
Thank you, one and all for your interest.
From another ""Novi Eboraci " native.
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Hi, everyone. When we formally begin our conversation with Carol Goodman about THE NIGHT VILLA, on June 1, we'll open a new discussion. During that discussion, if you have a question or comment for Carol, please alert Carol by typing QUESTION/COMMENT FOR CAROL as the first line in your post. Thanks!
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Carol, That's an interesting op ed article about the use of Latin on diplomas. Everyone, the article is available online at http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/15/opinion/15Francese.html
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Just stopping by to say hello to Carol and ask how her mother is since we last saw her on her birthday in September??? What a delightful lady she is and she raised a delightful daughter/author. She should be proud!
I have read three of your books and will look for "Night Villa" in the library as soon as I finish the discussion of "Loving Frank". Looking forward to the read, Carol.
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Thanks Marice for your help with that issue and your assistance getting Carol Goodman onto SeniorLearn. Many of these questions will be redundant because we queried her relentlessly in New York City.
After the last page of Carol's novel, please allow yourselves the luxury of reading her reflections and trepidations which she endured while creating this story. It is entitled A Regional Muse .
Following that is a conversation between Carol and her husband, Lee Slonimsky, about writing, Italy and good tomatoes.
She is so darned easy to talk to.
(oh-oh she teaches creative writing as well and I do believe there would be a big red circle around that last sentence.)
This will help you understand why our interview with Carol lasted far longer than she had expected. I can't wait until we get started. By then Ginny will be up and Adam (I hope).
Annie- it will be great to have you in here as we tour the the Villa della Notte.
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I am looking forward to reading this book, and the discussion about it. This will be the first book I read on my Kindle. I lived in Italy for several months, as my husbband was in the military. I loved the beautiful country in Southern Italy.
In high school, I took a semester of Latin. Just that small amount of exposure to Latin, has helped me all of my life, with English words. It seems to me that my grandchildren would benefit from a year, or two, of Latin.
Sheila
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Sheila, I am pleased that you are going to join us. PLease let me know how it works out with the Kindle, I am dying to buy one but fear I won't be able to find my place while reading and discussing a book here. Does it come with page numbers?
I love all of the high-faluting gadgets but I can not see myself without a book in hand. We will see. I always preach "move on, we're in the 21st century" but have a problem with that issue.
Ginny is feeling a bit better today and is attempting some movement with a small amount of weight. She has a broken bone in the knee but her pain is radiating into her ankle and that is still giving her a great deal of pain. She goes back to the doc on the 1st but is "chomping at the bit" to get in here. She needs the rest and the comfort of time. :P
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Hi, Sandyrose here. I also am one of Ginny's Latin students and I am so, so sorry to hear of her accident. I just found out today as I was reading all the posts here. Thank you Andrea for the updates.
Hope you heal quickly Ginny!
And thank you Carol Goodman for joining us here. Wow, this is great. I read The Night Villa a while ago and loved it--a mystery, history and ties in with Latin class--what's not to like :)
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hi all of you. I'm a bad person, I can't wait for you all to begin this book.
I went to the kindle sample and before I was halfway through I knew I had to have it immediately. I bought it with my kindle and began to read and there is no way that I can wait for the group. I am a quarter of the way through already.
I love this author, the way she writes the way she understands and loves her characters, her story telling ability, her knowledge which is shared on an intimate level with us all whether we are up for it or not. Although I am glad I took a course in mythology thirty years ago, and like archeology. It seems romantic to me and also to her.
thank you for pointing me in this direction. before I'm through I'll probably have read everything Carol Goodman has written. it could get expensive even with KINDLE.
claire
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I appreciate everybody's good wishes and concern, thank you so much, and I am doing FINE and raring to go here on June 1~
Welcome Joan R, SandyRose, Claire (winsumm), serenesheila, and Adoannie to an already super crowd of readers, and a special welcome to Carol Goodman!!
I am so glad to see so many Latin students here, we have 5 levels of Latin represented here on SeniorLearn, in our pro bono Classics Project, some of whom have studied Latin with us for 4 years and some of whom know more about the Passive Periphrastic than I do. :) hahahaa It's a good thing and what a thrill for all of us to be able to talk to award winning Carol Goodman about this book.
But you don't need to know ANYTHING at all about Latin to read, enjoy, and savor this book. No more than you need to know about the Crystal Skull to enjoy the last Indiana Jones movie. The Crystal Skull turned out to be in real life a fake (see the latest Smithsonian on it) but that's one thing I really admire about Carol's writing: the integrity. She's the real thing, she knows what she's talking about. Of course it's a book of fiction, and of course she's created things and made things up, but she's good at it: the references are things most of us know nothing about, so we can't help learning SOMETHING, painlessly and enjoyably. There are more books than you'd think featuring classics as a subject or Latin teachers, but they are not written BY people in the field, I really do like what she's done. And then there's the book of course (which is not what you normally mention last) hahahaa, but as Claire said: it's great.
Welcome, ALL, what a thrill this is for the Book Club Online, the oldest continuous book club on the Internet, a true international and great group of readers being able to talk to THE Carol Goodman, what else do you want?
In the first week of June, Week I in the heading, we will not talk about anything other than what is contained in the first 112 pages. If your question (several of mine are in this category) may pertain to what comes later on, we'll ask you to hold that particular one for the end, so as not to spoil it for the rest. I just reread the first 112 pages, that's good stuff~!
And I reread last night the absolutely CHARMING "A Regional Muse" in the back of the book, totally delightful, as was she in person, you're really in for a treat this time!
This is exciting! Welcome, All!
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Hi Ginny, It's good to see you back at your computer! :D
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Hi Ginny: I knew it wouldn't be long before we 'saw' your smiling face.
I haven't even peeked inside Night Villa but the comments here have made me so curious about it that I can hardly wait to start the reading the first 100 pages... well 102 if we're being exact.
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So very happy to see you back, Ginny!!!! I knew that there's probably nothing that could keep such an irrepressible lady down for long!
Everyone should take a look at Carol Goodman's Home Page (listed in the heading) for an introduction to this charming and talented person and for an insight into her research and writing methods.
When we finish with this discussion, I want to read "The Sonnet Lover". I've read 3 of her other books and do like her writing a lot.
Pedln - when are you coming to NY?? Hope to see you somehow!
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Yea! Ginny is back.
I am in the middle of The Seduction of Water. It is totally absorbing. While the main character, Iris, is researching the connections and parallels between her mother's life and her writing, she is also discovering the parallels between her life and her mother's. Unlike a book I gave up on earlier because the plot got bogged down in minute details, Ms. Goodman's use of descriptive detail is just right for me.
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That is wonderful, ginny, that you are able to work on your computer again! I was so sorry to hear of your accident. Please note: many prayers have been sent your way.
I will be tuning in to The Night Villa but also am still in Pakistan with Three Cups of Tea. After reading all the posts, I am anxious to begin reading it.
I also am a Latin student of ginny's - we are on spring break right now!
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languages: I had latin in the eighth and ninth grade followed by four years of spanish. my mom sang lider in italian, so did I for a while and in all, I sang in five languages which helped with the linkages when spoken, so the language inserts are interesting to me. so far I find that the spanish I know helps me with the Italian I find in the text. They are very similar. This is a group of latin scholars and some of that is coming back too. the endings within the declensions i.e. "orum and i." . .now and then a word, puella means pretty. . . a look into the past for me.
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I just remembered puella is girl??? and pulcra is pretty as applied to girl ???
and do modifiers precede or follow the noun???
There are all sorts of little things tucked away in this 81 year old mind. The folks I'm with bring them to the fore. These discussions serve to awaken them and then the associations bring on more and more. . .It's a kind of playground for my mind. which makes me . . . . an intellectual JOCK.
claire
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winsumm- It's a good thing that Carol Goodman isn't peeking in on us right now because I'm going out on a "Latin limb."
Unlike you, I couldn't even remember until I read your post what pulcra meant but strangely I remember these acronyms I learned in the 9th grade.
NGDAAV I used them to learn the inflections & recited them to myself in class
NO GARY DIDN'T ACTUALLY ACCUSE ANDY VERBALLY. (Gary was my brother)
How, I ask, after a ga-zillion yrs. can I remember that and forget the word declention?
This should be fun. I am rereading the first 112 pages for June 1st and can not believe how much more I've learned this time around (Carol is an extremely complicated and clever writer.) I hope that I will be able to read all of my notes. I have spent sometime reviewing some of the Gods, Goddesses and Greek writers, to spark this old brain.
Welcome Edithann- Are you like Lily Tomlin's Edith Ann? ::)
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Ha! Ha! No, not quite. We have a cairn terrier named Edy, but we call her EdithAnne. My friends in Latin class call me EA, which is just fine with me. I have three more pages to read in Cups of Tea and then its on to The Night Villa. I am usually a lurker so I may not ber posting much, but I thoroughly enjoy the posts and read everyone of them.
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;D- EDITH, EDITH ANN OR EA- which ever you prefer. I am willing to bet that you, as a Latin student will be unable to restrain yourself from posting and asking questions. Carol in a plethora of classical information and "lurking" only will be difficult. (Betcha we'll see a lot of you.)
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Oh me, I go away and Ginny manages to break something. I will be home for the discussion, at least most of it..Have the book and will try patiently not to read ahead.. Sigh. I love reading in one big gulp..
OK.. Alf, take care of the patient. I suspect that getting better will not help the patience..
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After meeting and listening to Carol as we sat in the Board Room of the Hilton in NYC (we were really grand that day and so was the weather!) I will, of course, be here. I've had my book for some time now waiting for this discussion. My older sister (who is 84) is flying in from MA on the 3rd to be with me for 2-3 weeks so I may not be in here faithfully, but will follow along as the opportunity arises.
WELCOME TO SENIORLEARN, CAROL, and come back often to discuss another book with us. We could use your expertise as an author!
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ELLA- you are always welcome anywhere, anytime! Tell Cindy to join us as well. She has had the privledge of meeting Carol, as well.
Steph- I know exactly what you mean. One big gulp! ;D
Hurry back. Are you in TN now?
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the structure of this book is interesting to me. It procedes to tell two stories paralleling each other but related all at the same time and not just with quotes. However I find myself skipping to pick up the story line that has just switched. I did that with the Oz books too when I was a kid.
This is much more extensive. Phineas story feels like it could be happening today even though it takes place in the first century AD. We just had an earthquake here that made the news, seemed to be relevant to what I was reading and I almost expected a volcano to errupt at the same time.
claire
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Hi to everyone and to Ginny, our intrepid DL ~
I've read the delightful book and will try to participate as much as time allows.
I've been a student in Ginny's Latin classes since the first 101 class started 5 (?) years ago!
Welcome, Carol Goodman! We seniors are so very lucky to have your participation!
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I started Night Villa last night - delicious - interesting and intriguing - can't wait to read more.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvilla.jpg) | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillatitle.jpg) |
"The Night Villa: Carol Goodman’s luminous prose and superb storytelling will keep you entertained into the late hours.”
–Nancy Pickard
“The pleasure of a Carol Goodman novel is in her enviable command of the classical canon–and the deft way she [writes] a book that’s light enough for a weekend on the beach but literary enough for a weekend in the Hamptons.” –Chicago Tribune | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodman.jpg) |
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News Flash! Carol Goodman, award winning author of The Night Villa, will attend our June discussion of her book. If you like mystery mixed with mythology, cultural and religious history and intrigue then this is the story for you.
The novel is a multi layered mystery set in the exploration of an ancient Roman villa. Carol Goodman is a former Latin teacher who knows her stuff, and since we met with her in NYC, we know she is an incredibly responsive person. This will be "one for the Books.." Do join us June 1!
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/NYC30AUTHORGROUP300.jpg)
Our meeting in NYC with Carol | . | Schedule:
- Pages 4 - 112 June 1 - 7
- Pages 113 - 204 June 8 - 14
- Pages 204 - 291 June 15 - 22
- Pages 292 / finish June 23 - 30
Links
- NYC Interview with Carol Goodman ~ Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
- Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
- The Night Villa Reader's Group Questions & Topics for Discussion (http://www.carolgoodman.com/Content/The_Night_Villa_Readersand_39_Group_Questions_and_Topics_for_Discussion.asp)
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Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
In the first week of June, Week I we will not talk about anything other than what is contained in the first 112 pages. If your question may pertain to what comes later on, we'll ask you to hold that particular one for the end, so as not to spoil it for the rest.
I just finished The Seduction of Water yesterday. Then, I grabbed a SciFi book to cart off to work with me for the evening. What a come down in writing quality/style from Ms. Goodman's writing. Now I am spoiled. My plan is to start reading The Night Villa Monday or Tuesday.
--Frybabe
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Well only a few more days now till we begin! I'm getting quite excited, quite nervous actually, but I needn't be with this group of discerning readers AND Carol, who is graciousness itself, very exciting!
If you are new to our book discussions, you'll want to know Andrea and I will be putting some....not sure what to call them.....topics or questions for your consideration in the heading. I think we've got about 30 for the first 112 pages. hahahaaaaaaaaaa
These questions are NOT exam papers, their only purpose is to possibly spark conversation on a particular train of thought, so you won't want to number your paper from 1-30 and try to "answer" them all, that's not what they are for.
Usually our readers have something THEY want to talk about. YOUR topics or questions will also appear in the heading if you like or suggest one for the heading, and if you'd like to suggest one, please do.
It's always a challenge to respond to the million and one ideas our readers throw out, but our best discussions happen when our readers talk to each other about what each person raises. As you are typing your own response, you can scroll down (a feature of this site) and see easily what everybody else has said before you), NEAT!
Remember if it's not in the first 112 pages, we'll talk about it when we get to it, you can have READ the book 11,112 times however, and some of us have read it many times.
We are so pleased to have an international audience here and such a fine group of readers for our first Author Event on our new site and particularly Carol Goodman, it's an honor.
Fireworks for Memorial Day, our great readers, and Carol!
(http://seniornet.org/gallery/jane/holiday/july/fireworks6.gif)
Happy Memorial Day Weekend!
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NOBODY CAN STRIKE UP THE BAND QUITE LIKE GINNY! I AM SO GRATEFUL THAT SHE IS WELL ENOUGH TO BE HERE AS OUR LEADER.
(she shouts)
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hahah Andrea, gosh! Reminding all that Andrea is not only the co leader here but one of the best. hahahaa Lots of enthusiasm here and I'm hearing from some folks who have not posted in here they are also planning to join us, also, what fun!!
One of the books that Carol read as background and mentioned in one of her reflections in the back is David Sider's The Library of the Villa dei Papiri at Herculaneum.
I was thinking to myself I would like to know more about this "papyrus" stuff, and was looking for some background material. I thought I might have some books on the Villa of the Papiri, and I do, and I found it in a stack (I'm ashamed to say an unread stack) when cleaning finally the back room. So I sat down to read it and thought that name sounded familiar and lo and behold she mentions it in the back!! I am excited about that because I really appreciate it when an author gives us some "read more about it" sources, or quotes sources they may have used, and have been tremendously enjoying reading it, it's an eye opener. It's a GOOD one.
I'm mentioning it especially again here because sometimes the more you know about something or the more effort you put into anything, the more you sometimes get out of it, and your local libraries may have it. It's VERY readable. Tall and paperback and thin.
The chapter on Greek and Roman books alone is worth a sit down in any Barnes & Noble. Your books at home may not be on papyrus (although sometimes I feel old enough that they should be :)) and you may wonder what this "papyrus" stuff is all about.
Sider explains what a Roman book (on papyrus) looked like, how they made them, how they stored them, and the truly horrific efforts they previously made to try to read those they found in the Villa dei Papyri, (when they weren't burning them for fuel, they look like charred lumps of coal or wood)...unreal. I want to bring some of that to the conversation, but if you can get your hands on that book, a picture is worth a thousand words, and it's full of pictures. Your mouth will literally drop: what an exciting fun trip we're going on June 1!! What exciting SUBJECTS for a mystery!
Everyone is welcome! Come with us!
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Thanks, Ginny, I just ordered David's book from Amazon. I write "David" so familiarly for a reason: he was one of my very best friends in my late high school years and all through college. I lost track of him for awhile, but then we reconnected for one brief meeting about 10 years ago or so. He told me that he was an expert on deciphering newly discovered Greek poetry scrolls, but I didn't know that he had written anything about Pompeii. Wow!
Interestingly, David started taking Greek and Latin in the same classes as I did ... and I think he became interested in the first place because of my enthusiasm. He was a math major at the time!
Cathy
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Cathy! REALLY? I tell you what, he's a fine man and it's a super book. He just sent me a source for the illustration we need, this is getting VERY exciting here!
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PS I think most of the stuff at the Villa dei Papiri in Herculaneum IS in Greek. I'm thinking our focus here tho will be on the Latin. Still reading the book.
Good point! Good book.
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I've read past page 112 by now ... of course ... and I have a question: what's the best current source material about mystery religions?
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HI, I am also a current Latin student (Latin 101) and just got back on-line after major computer problems, so am reading these pages for the first time. Was very saddened to hear of Ginny's accident on page 1, but then am so happy that she reappears on page 2! Hope your healing is going well. It seems to take bones a bit longer as our bodies get more life experience.
Completed The Night Villa a few days ago. What a thriller...couldn't put it down after embarking on the last chapters. Am hopeful to join everyone, and re-read the mystery again with you all. Ginny's Latin course was so interesting that I decided to take a course on Mythology at the U of MD this summer (space permitting..for "seniors", but free tuition). The Classics Dept recommends it for all interested in studying Latin or Greek, and after reading this novel, I can understand why! Looking forward to the discussions. Its a new adventure for me to participate in a book group and how fun it will to have the author with us.
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A very big welcome to another of Ginny's Latin students, Suzie.
We are so pleased that you will be joining us for our discussion and just WAIT until you meet our author, you guys will keep her hopping with questions.
She is a wealth of knowledge and such FUN!
I have had to hold myself back from reading the book in its entirety. I will admit to being up to page 220+ but have held back so that when I post and ask questions I won't make it a "spoiler" question. I have a tendency to get a bit carried away with a thought and fear that I might start to "babble." I would love to find a course around here about Greek Mythology, I loved it in college but that was a ga-zillion years ago.
Cathy, you are NOT joking? You actually have known David thru high school and college? That is so exciting and another example of the "small" world we live in and just how close we all interconnect. (Maybe you can invite him into our discussion) ;D :o ::)
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Nope, no joke. To give you an idea ... Dave drove me to the hospital when I was in labor with my first baby ... . But, since I haven't spoken to him in now ... actually, it must be more like 15 years ... I'm shy about inviting him into this discussion, particularly since, last time I talked to him, I brought up Mary Renault, and he said he never, ever read historical fiction. Not that "The Night Villa" is historical fiction, but I'm afraid it's too damn close to get him interested!
Hmm, but all this talking about him (his ears must be burning) is making me think that maybe I'll contact him when I'm in New York in July. He'll laugh when I tell him I'm revisiting Latin!
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Well I feel good about that, because I don't read historical fiction either. :) But it's ok with me for those who do.
This one's a mystery (as you said, fiction, ) with great background materials (some real, some not, that alone will be so fun, we must keep a list) sprinkled in it.
The whole thing fascinates me.
I am loving his book. And while he might not care to read the discussion, he might be open to a question in his specialty, if we together can't figure out the answer. We've had a lot of notable academics in our book discussions in the past: heck we had the Stanley Lombardo answer questions in our discussion of the Iliad, his translation: he was a champ.
I bet he'd LOVE to hear from you! He wouldn't laugh to hear you're revisiting Latin, he'd understand and appreciate it.
On your question, Cathy, I think that would be a super question for Carol. The very thought of the mystery religions, Eleusinian mysteries, Bacchic mysteries, the cult of Dionysius, or Dionysus Zagreus is enough to turn ME pale! hahaha She's the one!
I like reading a book that has elements I know nothing about, sure in the knowledge that together we'll ferret them out, and then we'll all know. This book has a LOT of those.
Suzie, so glad to hear you are undertaking a university class in mythology this summer!! I hope you can have a place, that is fabulous! We have had several of our students taking summer courses, which is just tremendously exciting, everything you learn benefits us all!
That's what our site here actually is all about. :)
Exciting, huh?
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On the subject of mythology: I always become uncomfortable when I use that term or hear it used. It's true that it's the usual way (even, I believe among classicists) to refer to Greek and Roman religious beliefs, but I wonder if it misleads us into thinking that they (the Greeks and Romans) didn't actually believe in these deities. As far as I know, there may have been different ways of thinking about them (e.g., did they actually take human form?) but no controversy about their existence.
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I checked out my local library for the David Sider book mentioned The Library of the Villa Dei Papiri at Herculaneum - they don't have it but are getting it for me from a neighbouring library though it may be a week or two - I should get my hands on it fairly soon and certainly during the discussion.
Now ...for all those references to mythology...
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Catbrown I'm sure the ancients believed in their deities. It has never occurred to me for that to be in doubt. Mythology as a term seems to cover a multitude of matters...maybe we should check out the definition of the word...
How wonderful of you to know David Sider - I'm sure he would be gratified to know of the interest in his book generated on this site. Maybe he could come in to answer specific questions - Ginny will have lots of them!
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Thinking more about the mythology, my problem is that ancient religion is "mythical," but current religious beliefs are not.
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Have been listening to a course from the Teaching Company titled "Classical Mythology" by Elizabeth Vandiver (from the U of MD, no less!) who tackles the definition and theories of mythology in several of the lectures. She defines a myth as, "traditional stories a society tells itself that encode or represent the world view, beliefs, principles, and often fears of that society." She also says that "myth" is a difficult concept to define...and we are not really able to understand the actual functions of a myths in the original society but can use myths to gain a better understanding of it...based, on what was actually written down of oral traditions and stories.
Catbrown, perhaps one might argue that some of the religious beliefs in today's many cultures are based on mythical stories....??
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This is a really interesting conversation about mythology. My husband says that when he studied Greek he learned the difference between the Greek words "mythos" and "logos." He says that the term "mythos" (muthos) did not have the connotation that the word myth carries today about something being "untrue." Mythos was used the way that Suzie says that Elizabeth Vandiver defines it...descriptions and stories that attempt to relate the beliefs and principles of a society. Logos was used to talk about an orderly view of nature or the universe; a reasoned explanation.
Suzie, That's great that you've found a Teaching Company course on Mythology!
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These are great topics, mythology and religion: way too big for me, they are a college course (or two) in themselves.
Gum, you wil love the book!! And I think you are dead right, we do need some definitions. I like both the ones Suzie and marcie supplied. Suzie and Marcie, those are both super points, made while I was typing this!! I'm looking forward to hearing the latest when Suzie finishes her in person course, too. That seems a super reference, Suzie, does she take up the role of Greek mythology in Roman religion? I just read a fabulous quote by Cicero in the new Mary Beard book which would suggest maybe not!
I think that the dual issues of "mythology" and "religion" are fascinating, dealing as they do, in the classical world, with the Greeks and then the Romans and the adaptations over a long period of time for both.
I like the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature's take on both of these subjects, in hopefully partial response also to Cathy's question here's my 2 cents.
It's too long to repeat here, but the OCCL goes into some detail about the Greeks and then the Romans. We're more interested in the Romans and their ideas of religion if I understand the question correctly.
They point out the importance of religious rituals in every day Roman life, stating that there three ways
in which mortals might approach a god: through prayer, by which a request was brought to a god's attention; through sacrifice, by which the god might be induced to grant a request; and through divination by which the god's will could be made known. Religion at Rome came to govern all political activities and consequently to be manipulated for partisan purposes, because of the necessity, before all state undertakings, of consulting the will of the gods by taking the auspices.
All religious ceremonial was highly ritualistic, and the most scrupulous attention was paid to the minutiae of procedure.....The formulae of invocation and prayer , and the forms of ritual were handed down unchanged and recorded by the colleges, so that in later times the ancient words and actions were barely understood. More attention was paid to the ritual than to the personality and attributes of the deity: it not infrequently happened that the ritual survived when the deity itself was forgotten (see Furrina).
The business like, contractual nature of the Roman religion is seen in the very frequent use of vows (vota) public and private.
We all know the Romans were free to worship any god they chose, and that was the main problem with Christianity when it appeared, again quoting: demanding renunciation of the old and a new start, admitting no compromise with alien faiths, refusing worship to the deified emperor, and demanding an exclusive allegiance. This uncompromising spirit caused the persecution of the Christians but ensured the ultimate triumph of their faith.
Every house had a shrine and its own household gods, the lares and penates. There were several kinds of lares. The famous incident depicted deliberately by Vergil in the Aeneid shows Aeneas carrying his aged father Anchises from burning Troy. Even in the excitement Anchises is carrying a small shrine to the lares, the household gods! Here's Bernini's take on the incident:
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/aeneas/aeneassculpturebernini.jpg)
The Romans had no sacred writings except for the formulae of prayer. They were free to think what they liked about the gods: what mattered was the religious acts they performed. It was the necessity for the exact fulfillment of their religious duties which promoted discipline and obedience to the sate. With the development of Rome, the Romans attached to the gods their own developing sense of morality; a feeling that the gods were just served to sanction human law. In the private sphere the religion of the home, the sense of divine presence in the daily round of domestic events, calling for the maintenance of right relations (pietas) both with the gods and with the other members of the family, strengthened the family tie which was the basis of Roman society.
The emphasis placed on particular virtues such as patriotism and duty led to a warmth of religious feeling being attached to these virtues, the more so as they were often embodied in a line of "noble Romans," and frequent appeal to them was made by orators and historians.
Thus the Roman religion is at the root of the sense of duty that marked so many Romans, duty to home, gods and state. A national solidarity ensued, maintained by the annual state festivals of the various gods, so that religious became the sanctification of patriotism.
One interesting thing, I thought, pertained to us here: For instance under the topic Religion, under Romans , subheading Eastern Influences; Emperor Worship they mention that "a little later (the time given originally was 204 BC) the orgiastic worship of Dionysus spread over Italy and was suppressed with difficulty in 186 BC. See Bacchanalia. " But then you have the Villa of the Mysteries, and the latest books which touch on it (Mary Beard's brand new one (2009)) reveal that nobody really knows what it depicts, but we do know what it isn't. And why it's so bright.
DID the Romans believe every one of the Greek myths implicitly? And did they worship them?
Even among the Greeks where the myths originated (Homer and Hesiod are credited with most of the gods and goddesses we know), old gods and the old myths finally lost their vitality among the educated classes in the Hellenistic Age....
(Late 4th- late 2nd C BC)...
with the development of city states though the simple cults of the peasantry survived. Among the educated the old religion was replaced, in so far as it was replaced at all, by philosophical systems, notably the Stoic and the Epicurean. Ruler-cults became widespread in the Greek world at this time. This was a political religion without true religious spirit, the worship of a king as benefactor and protector, more powerful than the discredited gods of Olympus. Later the worship of Rome and of Roman governors grew up with the growth of Roman influence in eastern politics.
For the Romans: When families came together to form the first Roman community, state cult was based on the cult and ritual of the family. At first the priest was the king, and after the expulsion of the kings the title survived in the office of "king of the sacred things" (rex sacrorum)....new gods appeared especially from Etruria and Magna Graecia, as Roman horizons widened.
Greek myths supplied the element of story and of the picturesque which the Roman religion lacked. But the primitive faith in the spirits of the home and the countryside survived, especially in rural districts.
Apparently after the 3rd century when the Stoic and Epicurean (Greek) doctrines of philosophy were introduced, the Romans "were more interested in the ethical than in the speculative side of philosophy; they also picked and chose among the doctrines of the Greeks those which suited them....as being in accord with the qualities of pietas and gravitas which they so much admired, that is, the punctilious discharge of duties toward gods, family and state."
I don't know if that helps or not. Obviously this is a big subject! Every day a new discovery is made which MAY make what we know all wrong, or at least cast a new light on it.
We really need to watch our sources in this one, too, let's dig further than Wikipedia for our info in this discussion, please try to find something with .edu on it in our misinformation age.
One thing that really strikes me about this brief reading is the repetition of the word CULT , did you catch those? I never paid too much attention to that word before this, just took it for granted. It's all over the book tho?
Carol may want to shed some light on the cult as it's so prominent in her book.
In 2009 we definitely think of "cults" ( do we?) as some kind of Jim Jones and the lemonade type of thing, but obviously they did not! OR did they? It will be interesting to see what we can discover about cults (there's another definition we need) old and new (another parallel in the plot)!!
I tell you what, the topics here alone would make a summer's course and are a treasure hunt in themselves! I got up thinking that this morning and now I'm convinced, we're off on an adventure: a treasure hunt!
I'm about to be blown off by a storm, I'll spend that time reading Mary Beard's new book and see what she says about Roman religion, and what role Greek mythology played in it?
Why are we talking about Roman religion? Because the Villa of the Papyri was Roman and the scrolls we're translating in this book are in Latin.
Wow!
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You're right, Ginny. I think we could spin off several courses from the references in Carol's book! :-) That's one of the things that I enjoy about her books, aside from their being well-written interesting stories on their own, she always includes references to things I want to learn more about.
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Thanks for the book references, Ginny. I'm in ninth in cue at my library for the Mary Beard book, The Fires of Vesuvius: Pompeii lost and found. They don't have the David Sider books :-(.
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Then what is the difference between a fable and a myth? They are both legendary.
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According to Vandiver, "traditional tales" can be categorized into myth, legend, and folklore:
..myth refers only to stories that concern the gods and their rites. It is closely connected with religious ritual.
Legend refers to traditional stories rooted in historical fact describing the ...adventures of people who actually lived ..Robin Hood or George Washington......
Folktale refers to stories that are primarily entertaining and that often involve animals or ordinary but clever humans..such as Little Red Riding Hood ...
Unfortunately, Vandiver does not define "fable".
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So--- a fable would be a Folktale then, Suzie? That makes sense to me.
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I would agree, ALF, that fable and folktale seem to be the same...will need to check it out for certain in another reference.
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I like those definitions, too, we need a glossary here, or I do, anyway and we'll get one up in the heading, we need a score card for a lot of this.
For those of you who can't get the Sider book, here is a fabulous link PatW found to the Philodemus Project:
http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/philhome.htm
This is tremendously exciting and you can see the ORIGINAL plans of the Villa of the Papyri done by Karl Weber, (that story alone is a course in itself), AND these incredible photos of what the original papyri they found look like!
Could YOU open one of those? Or would you tend to toss it aside?
http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html
I mean, what more could you ask for?
FABULOSITY way beyond Kimora!
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Thanks Ginny for this most interesting post.
I don't have any knowledge of Latin, but my first language is French which is a Latin language. In my childhood our Missel book in church had Latin and French side-by-side but I don't think I remember any Latin now, but I won't let that stop me from trying to learn from all of you.
For those who don't know me, I am not a Latin student, but I have been a long time participant in book discussions and I hope to learn a lot from interesting participants gracious enough to want to share their knowledge. I might have a lot of questions that others automatically know, so I hope you will be patient with me.
Les Fables de Lafontaine is famous for sending strong messages. We don't even think it's folklore, rather more like philosophy.
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Eloise: me too! I hope to learn a lot from interesting participants gracious enough to want to share their knowledge.
I've already learned things here.
I love your attitude! (I wish I could say something in French people did not laugh at!) hahahaa
Les Fables de Lafontaine, oh gosh I have not thought of them in years and what about Aesop's Fables, good question, Andrea.
I found out some more stuff but before I put it in, we do need to say if YOU are reading this and scratching your head and saying hey, now, wait a minute, I don't know any of that stuff, er..... you are in good company!
I can say with no shame I know virtually nothing of the Eleusinian mysteries, Bacchic mysteries, the cult of Dionysius, or Dionysus Zagreus or Dionysian mysteries, and what little I have read does not commend them hahahaa, so we'll have to get Carol as we get into it to tell us about them, (hopefully) and we can all learn together and MATH? (she says with all hairs sticking up in the air?) Pythagoras? Please.
Bring anything you have to the table, questions, comments or information, we need them. That's what makes the best discussions.
I am a BIG fan of the Preston and Childs books, starting with Relic, set in the Museum of Natural history where one of them worked. Their recent books are way out there, monasteries in Tibet, strange mysterious rites, I have no earthly idea if what they are talking about even has any real base (knowing them it probably does ) or not but that does not keep me from LOVING their Pendergast books and enjoying every minute. (Besides you learn something every time you read one, whether you want to or not)!
So fear not, Gentle Reader, bring your reactions and your opinions, your questions, what you don't know and what you do, and, if you like, whatever you find on the subjects in the book, as Marcie says, in addition to a super read, there is so much to learn about!
We are going to have a ball! Everyone is welcome!
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OK I've found some new stuff in two books that seems to pertain to both Roman religion and mystery cults. This may be useful? Both these books have either (Mary Beard) huge chapters or (Joanne Berry) multiple chapters on Religion and my typing skills are not up to the task, hopefully we'll all bring lots of stuff. But one of these quotes is too good to miss.
Joanne Berry's 2007 The Complete Pompeii lists these deities for whom there is some evidence of worship in Pompeii (which was not far from Herculaneum where the Villa of the Papyri was).
Town sponsored or accepted cults:
Aesculapius, Apollo, Ceres, Diana, Dionysus/ Bacchus, Hercules, Isis, Juno, Jupiter, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Neptune and Venus.
These are familiar names to those who know Greek mythology. However, for some of these the evidence is fragmentary: perhaps an inscription on a wall. She talks about "cults" but does not define the word.
She has a separate chapter on Imperial cults and one on Mystery Religions and Foreign Cults, and says they, often from the East, offered "adherents a more personal form of religion, often related to the promise of an afterlife."
Now this seems to be more what the book is talking about. She says such religions were "frequently treated with suspicion by the Roman establishment."
In addition to the gods which might have been expected to appear in Pompeii there was also Lakshmi, of India, Sabazius, and Isis of Egypt.
She says the Villa of the Mysteries frescoes may show initiation into a secret cult of Dionysus, god of wine and mystic ecstasy, whose cult was particularly attractive to women, or of a secret woman's cult. The initiand to the cult would be subjected to trials, suffer, undergo purification and be initiated into the mysteries…
Now that's right on the money for us. (They may also, however, indicate something else).
Mary Beard's long chapter on religion says nothing that the OCCL did not, and repeats most of it, ritual, etc., except for a few quotes of interest in her chapter A City Full of Gods.
Pompeii teemed with gods and goddesses….The city contained literally thousands of images of these gods and goddesses. If you count them all, big and small and in every medium, they were probably more in number then the living human population.
She says "We tend to take the images of ancient gods too much for granted."
And in a nod to Cathy's question, she says "Romans could disagree violently, not about whether the gods existed, (that was a fact rather than a belief), but about what they were like, how the different deities related to one another, and about how, when, and why they intervened in the lives of humans."
She also says that "In this sense many of the images of gods and goddesses that Pompeians saw around them in their daily lives were much more meaningful than we assume."
She talks about religious processions and floats, and says "After the Lares (which we mentioned above) Mercury is the most popular divine subject, closely followed by the Egyptian gods, with Venus, Minerva, Jupiter, and Hercules, in that order, coming next." Berry says there are more images of Venus than anything else, however.
Then she has a pretty good section on Isis, the ritual bathing (she says theoretically it was in water from the Nile) for purification, and says "it is hard to resist the feeling that this cult is treading a fairly safe line between its traditional civic Italian links and its mystical Egyptian "otherness." And she says that it was the Temple of Isis, "exotic and a little sinister….[which]…gave Mozart, who visited Pompeii in 1769, ideas for the Magic Flute."
I didn't know that!
But I think the best quote in her book so far comes from Cicero, who, apparently displeased, wrote a "cross letter" to Marcus Fabius Gallus, who was acting as his agent and who had bought for him a set of marble "Bacchantes"—the female followers of the god Dionysus (or Bacchus), and a well known symbol in the ancient world of wildness, intoxication, and lack of restraint.
They were, as Cicero admitted, "pretty little things." But they were completely unsuitable for a (sober) library. A set of Muses, on the other hand, would have been just the ticket.
Don't you love that? That may sum up in many ways the Romans and their attitude, at least that of the Republic.
And then at the end she takes up Isis, a mystery religion from Egypt and here the common elements of initiation, mystery rites, purification and (in the case of Isis) possible resurrection and afterlife were thought to be present.
So it's a wide open field here, apparently, with lots of permutations, who KNEW those dusty old ancients had so much going? hahaaaa
Just think, if it were not for Carol's book we'd not be talking about it either! That's one reason why, in looking for her, I found her name on a list of Classicists who have been honored for making a contribution to the field!
So we are all thrilled to welcome her here!
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All this talk on mythology has sent me to look for 'stuff' - so I have been browsing in Thomas Bullfinch's Age of Fable first published in 1855...
In my 1966 copy there is an afterword by Martin Bucco, then of Colorado State University who wrote this...
Through the ages scholars have struggled with esoteric problems arising from tales of obscure or forgotten origin... Theognis of Rhedium, for example viewed myth as allegory. Plutarch considered myths to be philosophical speculation. Aristotle saw them as metaphysical statements. Euhemerus read the old stories as historical accounts. Thucydides and Cicero understood them to be simply personifications of natural phenomena.
To the whetstone of mythology came moderns eager to grind their assumptions: Sir Walter Raleigh, for instance, held myths to be disguised stories from the Bible. Andrew Lang used myths to document the "anthropological" thesis that all societies evolve identically. To Max Muller, a philologist, all Aryan tongues stemmed from Sanscrit, and myths changed through a "disease of language". George Cox believed that every mythical hero represented the 'solar deity' and all myths revolved around the conflict between light and dark. James Frazer saw fertility rites as the origin of myths.
To Sigmund Freud of the psychoanaltyical school, the mythic hero is "wish fulfillment" and the monster, "repression". Myths reconstruct childhood fantasies, according to Otto Rank of the "nature" school. Carl Jung looked upon myths as the product of "collective unconsciousness" and our identification with them is strong because of "racial memory".
To Robert Graves myth is "a dramatic shorthand record" of a culture's need to explain phenomena, to justify existing social orders, and to preserve traditional rites and customs.
Archeologists, theologians, romantics, rationalists - all have investigated myths and labeled them everything from "patriotic" to "comic" to "mystic".
For Bullfinch, however, the value of mythology resides not in theories, but in the narratives themselves. Nevertheless, he rounds out his retelling of the Greco-Roman tales by describing briefly four theories: scriptual, historical, allegorical and physical. Each is "true to a certain extent" Bullfinch surmises, for "the mythology of a nation has sprung from all these sources combined".
In the light of multiplied theories during the past century, perhaps his eclectic conclusion still holds, but one wonders how Bullfinch would regard the solemn scientific scrutiny of the enchanting stories of The Age of Fable
Excessive ingenuity frequently does mislead, but so long as men encounter myths and fables through a multitude of channels (as did the Athenians), so long will scholars try to interpret them by using all available resources...
All this doesn't exactly answer the question of what mythology really is but with such varying opinions on what myths are and how they are to be interpreted - well it's no wonder I get confused.
I think the real point is that the mythology of any society is reinterpreted by each generation and again by every age so that even the ancients myths remain part of the fabric of the society in which we all live today...they are perhaps disguised and retold in different ways but I think the underlying narrative remains true.
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Hi to Ginny, who did (perhaps) not see me check in last week ... and hi to all on a cool, rainy day in MA ! This introduction on myths and Roman/Greek gods is very interesting!
I hope I might bring to this discussion the Jewish viewpoint, not that I am an expert, but I enjoy looking up areas where my knowledge is spotty.
The ritual baths of the Roman women remind me of the Mikvah, the ritual Jewish bathing requirement for Orthodox Jewish women. As a reform Jewish woman, I have never had this experience, but it is well known to be an important part of every month for those who are observant.
Here's a link from the Chabad organization, which is known for Jewish outreach activities.
http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/1541/jewish/The-Mikvah.htm (http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/1541/jewish/The-Mikvah.htm)
... more later ... babysitting calls ...
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Gosh, Ginny, you've been busy. There are so many religious rituals, gods, goddesses, cults, religious holidays, etc. that it is hard to keep them all straight.
There seem to be more "takes" on mythology than I ever thought. The use of the word cult to describe the many, many varieties of religious beliefs - now I feel like researching word origins and how the definition of cult may or may not have changed over the years, not to mention when it came into use.
Mippy, thanks for the info about Mikvah. At work, I process files for printing of several Jewish magazines. Occasionally, if time allows, I read a few paragraphs of interest. I got curious enough about the letter abbreviations such as zt'l behind names to look them up. I was delighted to find out that they are kind of a shorthand for phrases honoring their memory, some for those who passed on and others for those still living. An article I recently read was about Kristallnacht, which I never knew about. A little off subject, I know, but your mention reminded me of it.
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Well thank God Gumtree that it's not just one of us that is confused.
Yikes---- Cults, myths vs. fables, rituals vs. control, all this mysticicism----------I am in a tail spin.
There is so much to learn and that is the beauty, my friends, of sharing a great book together. I will be asking a lot of questions as well Eloise, so we can sit in the back with our hands raised high when we need an answer. This will be fun.
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What a great discussion! I'll throw in a match in the fire here ... . Yesterday, at the introductory session of a Roman Civilization class at UC Berkeley, the instructor said that the Romans had "a religious system not based on belief." It wasn't an appropriate time to query that statement, but I can't wait to find out what she really means!
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oh catbrown how I would love to get into a class like that. Did she say that to tweak your interest or raise many questions?
Romans had "a religious system not based on belief."
I wonder if she meant because the Roman religion was such a plethora of mixed influences, especially Greek. The Romans early religion was based on their belief in"spirits."
You must keep us informed of this class, it sounds captivating to me.
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Wow, Ginny, suzie, eloise, Gumtree, Mippy, Frybabe, catbrown and everyone. I agree with Alf that this discussion is going to generate lots of paths of interest that flow from the book. We'll have lots to explore and learn.
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I finished the suggested 112 pages of the book this morning and, of course, have loads of questions which I imagine I should save until the discussion is underway.
One comment. Women in mythology are treated terribly and I hope this is not a reflection of women in the Roman period. I have an old textbook of Western Civilization which dates the Romans from 800 B.C. to A.D. 400 and it is difficult for me to believe that the empire of Rome was one of such debauchery; however then one thinks of the brutality of the gladiator contests and the slavery, etc.
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oh catbrown how I would love to get into a class like that. Did she say that to tweak your interest or raise many questions?
Romans had "a religious system not based on belief."
I wonder if she meant because the Roman religion was such a plethora of mixed influences, especially Greek. The Romans early religion was based on their belief in"spirits."
You must keep us informed of this class, it sounds captivating to me.
I couldn't query her because it was part of a general, very introductory summary of Roman culture, not intended for discussion (kind of a teaser), but, given our discussion here it sure caught my attention. I really don't have a clue what she meant exactly.
The class looks like it's going to be great. There appear to be quite a few very motivated and informed students and the instructor, who's a graduate student in a PHD program, is an excellent teacher, who obviously knows the material, but also knows how to engage a class and who intends to run it very interactively. Almost all of the texts are the writings of ancient authors; at the moment I'm reading the assignment in Livy.
The passage I just read is about how Romulus' successor invented all kinds of religious rites to keep the Romans occupied during peacetime and to add legitimacy to his reign. Livy writes that the king claimed to have direct instruction from a goddess, a claim that Livy clearly does not believe!
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Was doing some searching for Roman religious cults and found the following site which has some very interesting information and pictures:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman Mystery Religions (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman Mystery Religions)
Am not comfortable with internet information if a site doesn't seem to have been updated. I don't know how to tell if the information provided is reliable...perhaps someone with more internet savy than I could look at its authenticity.
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After just a quick look, this looks to me to be an amazing resource. And it's Fordham, after all, which I would consider a generally reliable resource.
Thanks Suzie!
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week 1: (pp-112)
1. Sisyphus! (http://seniornet.org/gallery/latin/Graphics/sisyphus.gif) Sillybos! Persephone! Demeter! Hades! Dionysus! Parthenope! Sirens! Minerva Tyrrhena! Cybele! Harpy! And many more! The first 112 pages are a rich riot of classical allusion. What reference in the first 112 pages would you like to know more about? Choose one which interested you and bring an explanation of it here so we can all learn.
2. "Many are the narthex bearers but few the Bacchoi." (page 76 ) What does this mean? Why is it repeated?
3. What effect does the First Person Narration of the protagonist Sophie and her point of view have on the reader? Do you think this narrator so far is reliable? Why or why not?
4. Both Sophie and Agnes seem to feel guilty about things or overly responsible for events. Why?
5. Do you understand the tetraktys? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/tetractys.jpg) What do 3, 4 and 5 have to do with the triangle of 10 dots (page 29)? Does anyone know anything about Pythagoras or Pythagorean theory? What does the word tetraktys itself mean?
6. What are the some of the main conflicts in this first section?
7. Do you have any personal knowledge or do you know of anybody who has been involved with a modern cult? What do you think the appeal of the modern cult is?
8. Why did Sophie not want to go to Capri? Why did she go? Given her rough start, what would you say the prospects are for a successful time?
9. How many contrasts are there in this section and how are they variously presented? What is their effect? Were there any instances of imagery you particularly liked?
10. We have a lot going on here in this carefully crafted first section: how many parallels so far can you identify? (let's keep a list)
11. What foreshadowing did you notice in these first 112 pages? Was the shooting a surprise to you? Do you think the phone call was from Ely? What if she had picked it up on the 2nd ring?
12. What one thing did you most like about the first 112 pages?
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Schedule
Pages 4 - 112 June 1 - 7
Pages 113 - 204 June 8 - 14
Pages 204 - 291 June 15 - 22
Pages 292/finish June 23 - 30
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
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In the first week of June, Week I we will not talk about anything other than what is contained in the first 112 pages. If your question may pertain to what comes later on, we'll ask you to hold that particular one for the end, so as not to spoil it for the rest.
Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrirollsonshelfbr.jpg)
Roman books as papyrus rolls on shelves with the sillybos on the end.
A lost Roman funerary relief from Neumagen, Germany.
Thanks to Dr. Sider for locating this for us.
New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!
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Ella, you're right that women have not fared well in the written mythology that has been passed down (written by men!). There are quite a few books out about the rewriting of history and mythology. There is anthropological speculation that the first "god" or gods that people believed in were feminine.
Thanks for the link, Suzie. I agree with catbrown that the site should be reliable, although the project says it is not officially managed by Fordham University.
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I couldn't get the Sider book from our library system which really surprised me since they are usually right there with whatever I want. I ended up ordering my own copy from B&N (it wasn't in our nearby store either). I'm sure that I'll be referring to it quite often.
Thanks for the link to the Fordham site! I only have a hazy knowledge of some of the Mystery Religions!
I read the first hundred pages of The Night Villa last fall but stopped when I heard that there was to be a discussion. That was NOT easy stopping!!!!! I've just started to read them over again!
I've read and enjoyed 3 other books by Carol Goodman - she always seems to have such an impressive grasp of the backgrounds of her books - so admirable. And what a nice lovely person she is to meet!!!
Let's do it AGAIN!
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Suzie : Thanks for that great link - it looks good to me.
I'm still looking around at 'stuff' -ALF asked aomething about 'fable' so today's 'special' is a definition of 'fable This is from the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary:
Fable: ME. [a F., ad, L. Latin fabula discourse etc. f. fari to speak; See FATE.]
1. a narrative or statement not founded on fact; a myth or legend (now rare): a foolish story; a fabrication, falsehood
2. a short story devised to convey some useful lesson; an apologue. (The most common sense) ME.
3. The plot or story of a play or poem; occas. a play 1678.
4. Talk; discourse, narration (rare)-1598
5. The subject of common talk; a byword 1535
and then from A Dictionary of Literary Terms J.A Cuddon
Fable (L. fabula 'discourse, story') A short narrative in prose or verse which points a moral. Non-human creatures or inanimate things are normally the characters. The presentation of human beings as animals is the characteristic of the literary fable and is unlike the fable that still flourishes among primitive peoples.
The genre probably arose in Greece, and the first collection of fables is ascribed to Aesop (6th C. B.C.). His principal successors were Phaedrus and Babrius, who flourished in the 1st C . A.D. Phaedrus preserved Aesop's fables and in the 10th C. a prose adaptation of Phaedrus's translation appeared under the title Romulus, a work whose popularity lasted until the 17th C. ...
We've also been talking about 'cult' so here's something on the word itself - again from the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary:
Cult 1617. [ad. L cultus worship. In 19th C. often spelt culte as in F.]
1. Worship -1683.
2. a particular form of religious worship; esp. in reference to its external rites and ceremonies 1679.
3. transf. Devotion to a particular person or thing, now esp. as paid by a body of professed adherents 1711.
2. the cult of Aphrodite
3. the decay of the Wordsworth cult 1889
I found it interesting that the first meaning given for the word culture is simply worship
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Thanks for the definitions Gum. I always think of Aesop's Fables and their moral lessons.
So cult is from the Latin and originally simply meant "worship". Then in Roman times it did not have the stigma the word generates today? When I think of cults today, I think of oddball religious beliefs, some harmless, some dangerous.
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I found some more information about the origin and uses of the word cult at this site (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult-(religion))
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Oh this is wonderful!! I like that link, Suzie! When I hit one of them (maybe the one on Eleusinian mysteries) I got the University of Richmond Classics Home Page, instead but boy was IT interesting, I spent a long time exploring their courses! You can see from the list alone tho what a complex subject and big subject this is, what fun! We'll add that one to our links in the heading.
Cathy and Suzie, your experiences make me want to take another course, I love what you are bringing here.
Mippy, Suzie, Eloise, Gumtree, Frybabe, catbrown, what super additions to our discussion here! I'm loving it already. We currently have 4 countries represented at our round table here!
Welcome, Ella, and you're in luck, I believe women in antiquity is one of Carol's specialties, we'll learn a lot about that subject, too!
I love the definitions of cult and the links, thank you Gum and marcie. We need these definitions, or I do anyway.
Joan R, be sure it's the first 112 pages, we've got a million questions for the first week, can't wait to see what you all think.
For my part, I've brought two more items of background info, love background info and since I've got a lot of illustrations, I'll be bringing some in for possible interest. On the subject of papyri, here is a fresco from Pompeii, showing one of the two ways they were stored, in this case they look like they are in an umbrella stand. In our permanent heading appearing Monday you'll see another way: how they were stored at the Villa of the Papyri: on shelves.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrusscrollsupright.jpg)
But they also had wax tablets, as you can see in the case of Justa, and here's an extraordinary example also from a fresco, how they could even appear like a modern "book."
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These wax tablets are connected, almost like one of our books! Papyrus was more permanent but see those little dots in the middle of the page of wax writings? These are actually metal studs which, when the "book" was closed, kept the writings separate and not one big wax mishmash.
I am so enjoying Carol's ingenuity with this book. She is SO creative and clever. We'll be getting up a page as we read of what's real (or has a base in history) and what's not, sort of a score card, tho she is clear about that in the back, but I think the difference between the two or what she's done creatively is astounding. This thing should have won an award, I think. More....
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This morning since we were without power for 6 hours while they replaced some power lines, by necessity I discovered another glossy pretty book on my shelves and was flabbergasted to see a chapter on Justa! Could not believe my eyes.
Slick nice thing, I turned back to the beginning and there was the Villa of the Papyri, which Carol toured (see her notes in the back), and said no this is not what I meant at all, and proceeded to create her own in the Villa Della Notte. It goes into some pages on how John Paul Getty created his own copy of the original, based on Karl Weber's floor plan around 1750 or so for his Getty Museum in Malibu CA, has lots of pictures of the museum and the detail he put into it, including the cost ($17 million) and the fact that Getty died before it was complete and opened to the public in 1974.
The plantings are of plants favored in antiquity. There are 6 water features. I have never seen the Getty Museum! Have any of you? I have seen some of what came out of the original Villa dei Papiri, tho.
From the original, which lies mostly still buried under 65 to 89 feet of pyroclastic matter came 1,787 volumes or papyri (800 of which remain to be read), according to this book, 90 pieces of sculpture. 13 large bronze statues, 7 in marble, 18 medium bronzes in medium and small, 32 bronze busts, 15 marble busts. Many are now in the Museum of Naples (MANN).
They have an entire room of them there, I've got some photos of them too, if we want them. Has anybody seen them?
This book is called Herculaneum: Italy's Buried Treasure, and it's by Joseph Jay Deiss, and I thought that name was familiar too, and yes!! Carol mentions IT a lot in the back. It's PERFECT if you can get IT, just to read the chapter alone on the explanation of Justa's lawsuit, the best I have seen, (it's hard to find anything coherent on it on the web) with the startling knowledge that Calatoria herself had been a freedwoman (former slave).
I have had these books a long time and probably would not have ever opened them had it not been for this discussion. I think it's safe to say, based on the two treasures I've already unearthed, that anything Carol recommends in the back of the book would be fabulous. Sort of a Read More About It experience.
I'm getting a lot out of this discussion and books already and the book discussion doesn't start until Monday. :)
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Ginny, I've been to the Getty villa and it's quite an experience. Even the long entry gardens are wonderful and transporting. The old Getty (vs. the new modern Getty) reminds of the Cloisters in NYC. A wonderful collection in a wonderful setting completely right for it.
Really, anyone interested in Graeco/ Roman art and archeology should try to get to the Getty at least once. The collection is marvelous: there's even a statue grouping believed to Alexander and Haephaestion, also some very early Greek kouros that are jaw-dropping.
I've only been there once, but would love to go again, particularly since it's now been refurbished.
Cathy
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Yes, the Getty looks wonderful - pity it's such a long way for me to swim ;D
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Ginny, I have seen that picture of the vertical papyri somewhere before, I just can't remember where. What an exciting find you had. Imagine right there in your own library!!
It's like your very own archeological dig. ;D
I love museums but I like to go alone and not listen to anyone but a docent. Most times I am with someone and I can't concentrate on what I want to see.
Gumtree- come on! You could make the entire Pacific over here by the time we start our discussion on Monday. The Ocean is warming up at this time of year.
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Gum you could set out on your own Odyssey? hahahaa
Cathy, it looks as if it's back open! I thought it was closed. The Deiss book contains the reactions of the public when it was first opened:
The initial reaction of some critics to the Getty Museum was one of cultural shock. Largely uninformed about Roman architecture, except for such bastard descendants as our white marble-columned courthouses or banks, they were unprepared for the colorful flamboyance and opulence of antiquity. Reduced to a kind of negative stammer, they saw the museum as "bizarre"--a bizarre criticism in itself.
The informed opinion was different.
Lots of news here for people interested in classics. The American Classical League will have its annual National Conference, called the Institute, at 62nd Annual Institute at Loyola Marymount University (with a visit to the Getty Villa), in LA.
If you live in LA you can also see the exhibit on the Roman Villa which was, until this spring, at the National Gallery in DC, and get in the Getty free:
Explore the Ancient Roman World Two Ways:
See the exhibition Pompeii and the Roman Villa: Art and Culture around the Bay of Naples at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art, then bring your exhibition ticket to the Getty Villa to gain instant admission and to receive 20% off most items in the Museum Store. Learn more...
LOOK at the great lectures at the Getty: http://www.getty.edu/
hahaa Looks like we need a field trip to the West Coast!
If any of you are remotely interested in the House of the Papyri and you can get your hands on Gaetano Capasso's DVD A Journey to Pompeii (which has half the DVD on Herculaneum also) you can see it reconstructed, including the library. I like to show it to my face to face classes? And it's a stunner watching it rise reconstructed out of the ground, this voice over says ...."but what if...... through some miracle..."and what's there now (almost nothing showing, like a one story adobe house) begins to RISE out of the ground it's imprisoned in, and then the voice says once it's up, "and what IF..." and the gardens and peristyles rise, and the terraced walkways and the circular, domed, he calls it a belvedere overlooking the sea rises, I'm telling you it's a goose bump moment. It leaves everybody who sees it slack jawed and wildly enthusiastic.
They sell it at Pompeii and Herculaneum and MANN, in Italy, but it's hard to find otherwise unless you happen on a traveling exhibit which has one. There's a book too which accompanies it.
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Ginny, I checked Amazon just for the heck of it and found one used DVD of A Journey to Pompeii. Someone wants big bucks for it. Sounds really interesting, but I don't want to shell out almost $150 for it. Bummer.
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That's a total rip off.
You know what? I have several copies of it due to the university's picky DVD players, I could mail it out if somebody would like to pass it around? It's got an index.
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Thank you for the offer, Ginny. I'd love to see it.
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It's spectacularly worth seeing. If anybody wants to borrow it and pass it on, email me your mailing address and we'll get it in the mail today!
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Was fortunate to see the Pompeii and the Roman Villa exhibit when it was at the National Gallery in DC. Highly recommend it.
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Suzie, I saw it too, at Christmastime, when I was in DC. I bought the DVD "Pompeii and the Roman Vill" produced by the National Gallery, and have been rewatching it today, after getting caught up with the posts on the discussion site. A lot to cover there, and a lot of excellent links to explore.
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Well, I finally finished reading all the pre posts. Ginny I am so happy to see you are on the mend, what an awful mishap. I am going to try to get my hands on this book tomorrow. I hope I get lucky, because this sounds so interesting. I will admit I have NO knowledge of Latin, and have never read a book by Carol Goodman, so I feel like a newborn babe here. We sing a few lines of Latin at Mass on certain occasions and that is the extent of Latin.
So, like someone mentioned earlier, I too willl be at the back of the room, confused and full of questions. I'm not one to shy away from anything I know nothing about for fear of intimidation, so let the learning and fun begin!
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Bellamarie- that would be me sitting there in the back. Do come join me. Carol has done a very clever job of explaining things so that we will be able to decipher just WHAT is going on. It's a great mystery.
Pedln- my goomba, I am so happy to see you here.
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Bellamarie! Welcome, welcome! You'll all have to sit in the front, the back rows are mine. :) Thank you for the nice thoughts.
I think you'll love this discussion. THANK you for reading the previous posts so you'd know where we are!
Pedln and Suzie, I wish I had been able to get to DC to see that, hopefully it will come closer. It seemed that every weekend I was able to fly there, there were snow storms or something and then it was gone.
I thought of Sophie yesterday, during an interesting moment in travel here in SC, I really have empathy for her, starting out as she is, somewhat wounded, but needing to press on despite circumstances, that's good writing. I can't wait to start Monday. There's a lot to discuss here.
AND the author! And a huge super international group to discuss it with. What more could you ask for? :)
Everyone is welcome, don't miss this one!
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There already so much here on the subject I can't wait for the discussion to start. I looked at length at the Getty Museum site you put up Ginny. So impressive it is it's hard to stop and get on with my work here.
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Isn't it? It's even the more poignant to me that he never saw it completed.
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Mark
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I was just over on Google Maps looking at the aerials of Herculaneum and Pompeii. Pompeii's excavations are so much bigger than Herculaneum, so far. It looks like they have been excavating around occupied homes and that some of these homes have also ruins in their back yards. I noted two ampitheaters and one circus in Pompeii. Haven't had time to explore further. Just WOW! Time tp get ready for work.
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Welcome, Mrs. Sherlock! Are you just marking your place so you can then hit Show New Replies to Your Post on the top of the page and it will take you to where you left off OR hopefully you're planning to join us? Welcome!
Frybabe, I went to Google Earth, wow, but I can't get my bearings at Herculaneum. I saved from last year their new map of the site which shows to my astonishment a new walk arching off to the left of the by the office on the left, away the boat houses and the former neato cafeteria, now under construction, TO the Villa of the Papyri and two other new sites! None of these 3 sites on the new walk were open to the public, but the Villa of the Papyri to me has always been some sort of fabulous unseen thing and I was gobsmacked to see it there, had to look at that twice! We'll soon be able to saunter right to it from Herculaneum. I can't SEE it on Google and of course can't find the map but I'll keep looking, I kept it carefully (somewhere). I have not applied to see it but I have an adventure at the Villa Arianna to relate later. Much later :)
Pat has found this exciting link to: a Kentucky Professor Intends to Read 2000 Year Old Scroll, printed May 30, so are we au courant here or what? Here's the link, thank you Pat! http://www.kentucky.com/471/story/813136.html
Very exciting, will tomorrow never come?
Everyone is welcome~!
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Ginny, I just downloaded Google Earth several days ago and haven't really tried it out yet. I am so used to going to Google Maps. I had a hard time finding Herculaneum on Google Maps.
Summer Latin, tomorrow! I'm taking my Cambridge with me to work tonight since there doesn't appear to be any work to do and the supervisor hasn't called me off. I hate sitting around all night doing nothing, but if they want me to sit around all evening doing Latin and reading on their dime, so be it. I like my paycheck! ;D
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I am so excited, I was able to get my hands on the book yesterday as the library doors were closing. So, now I will have to get busy and read to be ready for tomorrow's discussion. I did get a chance to read Carol's interviews at her web page and must say, I feel as though I know her on a small personal level after learning more about her. She mentioned she did not submit her first book for some time after her college years, so she gives me hope, since I am an aspiring writer. (are you still considered "aspiring" if you have already had some of your work published?") I loved how in one of her interviews they asked why she uses looking out of windows as so many settings in her books, and she mentions she sits and looks out of her window and looks at her Rose of Sharon bush as she writes. It gave me goose bumps reading this, because I too, sit and look out at my Rose of Sharon bush, honeysuckle, day lilies, irises, shasta daisies and various other flowers as I write. It amazes me how the beauty of nature can inspire you.
Anyway, I must get off of here, since, "dum loquor, hora fugit" (Ovid) Don't let this fool any of you, I cheated and looked it up. lol
I can't wait to begin learning from all of you, each of you bring so much experience and knowledge to the discussions. Until tomorrow........
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I tell you what, this is an exciting place to be lately! We've got people studying Latin on their own over the summer in our summer workshops, and I didn't know you were a writer, Bellamarie!! I am not surprised because of the way you express yourself here.
That is another thing about this book: there is so much that touches each person personally that they can relate to, and we've all got different triggers here, this is going to be a great one.
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It's June 1 somewhere in the world! :)
Welcome, welcome welcome, pull up a chair and grab some nachos and some lemonade and let's discuss this book!
As you can see Andrea and I have decided to jump the gun a little to be sure we're up and rolling early tomorrow, June 1, a little precaution against weather. If you scroll UP you'll see a brand new heading, many thanks to Pat for her help with it, with all kinds of great (we hope) possible topics to spark your imagination.
Visualize yourself in a circle in your living room, it's YOUR turn to host our book club. (You really cleaned the house too didn't you?) hahaaa You've had to bring in chairs, because there are 27 of us from 4 countries, including the author!! We've made a nice round circle here, let's talk. About everything.
We KNOW you have tons of ideas and reflections and opinions on this book. The trick here is not to ignore anybody. If, in your own home, Eloise suddenly made a point about Jim Jones, you wouldn't ignore her and say, oh how about those Mets? And we won't here either: that is our goal.
PLEASE please be good hosts here and talk to everybody about what they have said. Yes there are topics in the heading (and I think they are good to start with, we'll want yours up there also), but you don't have to reflect on any of them, do your own thing, what do you want to talk about?
This is not a class, unless we consider Carol the teacher of everything she has written in this book and why she wrote it, , so picture us noshing and reading in YOUR house (shame about that dog of yours, you really should have taken him to obedience school :) and let's discuss.
Oh and we need this, too:
IF you have a question FOR Carol, please put in the subject line of your post QUESTION FOR CAROL so she can tell who you are asking, the group or her?
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I'm going to start out with Question 12: what I liked about this book. Or try to pick one thing: we can all come back more than once. You'll laugh at me but I loved the scene on the bathroom floor in the hotel. I loved the entire Naples adventure, the humor in the dying nun's breath of the air conditioning: I laughed right out loud. She ends up
lying flat on the stone floor so that I can see the tiles better.
That cool cool bathroom floor, the… what do you CALL this type of writing? Is it irony? Humor? It certainly endears the character to the reader. Love it. That first person narration ("I") and point of view is very effective here.
And of course I see now why the air-conditioning wasn't necessary—the floor is deliciously cool! I lay my cheek on it and feel waves of cold emanating my from the stone…"
(page 109) and then she's off again in her reflections, thrown into "like dioramas in a Disney ride" of "Hades stealing Persephone and her mother Demeter ravaging the earth…"
I love that. I can't see how somebody could write like that who didn't at one time or another end up on a bathroom floor, I know I have. (Maybe we need a Society of Bathroom Floor Survivors) hahaha . I've also been in southern Italy and had the "air conditioning" arguments, it's so true, depending on your hotel choice. You can't take a shower because you get hotter, you can't blow dry your hair because it won't dry, the heat from the blow dryer makes it wringed with sweat.
I love the contrast here, the similes, the imagery, the REAL juxtaposed with the ancient myth. The PRESENT against the PAST. The imagery of the allusions.
I don't know where I've seen this type of writing before, and I am not sure how to categorize it, but for imagery and contrast and parallels, it would be hard to beat. Did you also notice that if we were making soup we have the entire elements for everything IN the book in this first section?
Oh and here's a score card we're beginning, it's in the heading, called Real or Fiction? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html) We'll add to it any time you'd like, just shout it out!
What did you like best or want to talk about?
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what do I like best about this book? the writing . . . In fact I downloaded her first novel which is also first person present point of view which I like and asked google for declinations of puella because I remember just a little and it took me back to the days when I too had to memorize declensions of nouns and verbs.
As for the latin students in here, there is more of that in LAKE OF DEAD LANGUAGES than in this one, but this relates to much of my art history background so I liked it for that as well as everything else. She is particularly strong in developing her characters. I felt as if I knew all of them.
I have read the book, skipping some of phineas near the end. I wanted to follow Sophie's story in the present more than phineas who was a bit long winded.
claire
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The old getty was local for me since I grew up in Los Angeles. They had a pleasant outdoor lunch area so we often went there for that as well as touring the art. There was one sculpture of venus with an accompanying sign that gave permission to touch her because she is NOT as GOOD as the others, but to please not touch anything else. She did seem a little greasy.
I never did see the new getty.
Claire
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Ginny..just reading what you like most so far has made me laugh straight out loud. In the beginning I did not think Sophie was going to be so much of the character she is. I was delighted as I began reading all about her childhood, her relationship with Ely, and Elgin and oh so many interesting things with her talks with Charles.
Winsummm...I was a bit confused at first when she used the "first person present point of view ." I was not so sure I liked it, but as I read more and more, I am able to get used to it.
What I like the most so far about this book, is the mysteries it entails. There is so much going on with every character. I have a notebook and pen beside me taking notes, hoping to help figure each one of these personalities out. I must say, Carol has me coming and going and as delusional as Sophie is/was, in the hospital and hotel room. I think I actually am dizzy.
Me being of Italian descent, I am thrilled to see more Italian, rather than Latin in the book so far. Its Bellisimo, will check back again later today. Until then, ciao.
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Oh by the way....you all ignore my dust bunnies hanging in the corners of my living room. I will get to them one day. Just been too busy having fun to worry about them. I'm sure none of you will mind, we are among friends.
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There's lots to like in this book - but for me way and above all else it is a simple thing - I just love Elgin being named Elgin. How apt.
Then there are all the classical allusions tumbling over and jostling one another as they stir up my memory bank - and about which I hope to learn more as we go.
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Of Pythagoras I know very little but I do remember his theorem from my school days... For a right angled triangle, the square on the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares on the other two sides...or words to that effect.
The 3, 4, 5 right angled triangle can be seen as the typical case - on this right angled triangle the hypotenuse has a length of 5 units and the shorter sides have a length of 4 units and 3 units respectively.
i.e 32= 9 42= 16 52 = 25
9 + 16 = 25
This was known before Pythagoras but he is credited with being the first to find a general proof. In A Concise History of Mathematics Dirk J. Struik says:
As to Pythagoras' theorem, the Pythagoreans ascribed its discovery to their master, who was supposed to have sacrificed a hundred oxen to the gods as a token of gratitude. We have seen that the theorem was already known in Hammurabi's Babylon, but the first general proof may very well have been obtained in the Pythagorean school. Where the Babylonians saw it primarily as an achievement in mensuration, the Pythagoreans conceived it as an abstract geometrical theorem.
The Tetraktys is a triangular number - an equilateral triangle with each side being 4 units long.
Here's a quote you might like - it's from Mathematics From the Birth of Numbers by Jan Gullberg:
Arrangements of dots to represent numbers as geometrical figures, found as far back as Stone Age rock carvings, were of special importance to the Pythagoreans (c. 6th century B.C.), who imparted numbers with specific characteristics and personalities and believed that everything could be explained by numbers. Mystic or divine attributes of numbers were prevalent also among the Babylonians, ancient Maya, and most other ancient cultures.
The Pythagoreans demonstrated many of the arithmetic features of figurate numbers.
Beyond serving as number games, figurate numbers lead to interesting and useful progressions and series of numbers and they give us ways to visualize and geometrize relations between various sorts of numbers.
Triangular numbers are the natural numbers which can be drawn as dots and arranged in triangular shape: 1, 3, 6, 10, 15, 21 etc.
Of all numbers 10 was held in greatest reverence by the Pythagoreans; the sum 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10 was named tetraktys "the holy fourfoldness" , representing the four elements: fire, water, air and earth.
My brain hurts when I have to think about mathematics so now I'll go have a strong cup of tea and quiet rest on my bed - reading of course!
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Some things I found on narthex and Bacchoi:
narthex
as Plato writes, "Many are the narthex-bearers, but few are the bakchoi" (Ancient Mystery Cults, p. 34) -- a narthex being a symbolic cane of Dionysos, bakchoi mystics of the cult. For non-mystic women, a Dionysiac rite might just be a rare night of dancing, drinking and ritual sex.
"It is possible that old forms of puberty initiation were still preserved in sexual initiation" as part of Dionysiac rituals, Burkert writes in Greek Religion, p. 292. As with women at the Anthesteria, "not virgins, but only women could be bakchoi, and married couples could be initiated together."
NOW: Long, narrow porch, usually colonnaded or arcaded, crossing the entire width of a church at its entrance. The narthex is usually separated from the nave by columns or a pierced wall. In Byzantine churches the space is divided into two parts: An exonarthex forms the outer entrance to the building and bounds the esonarthex, which opens onto the nave.
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What a rocking start we off on here at SeniorLearn with Sophie Chase. Forget the dust bunnies bellamarie! My husband is away on a golf outing for the week and my house is not ready for any company. So-- I'll sit down here with you ladies, if I may, and talk about Sophie's adventure.
Thank you so much Gumtree for the information on tetraktus. I didn't even think that was a real word, much less a real Pythagorean symbol. Even though it was the simplest "representation of the theorem, I couldn't wrap my head around the importance of the 3-4-5 signal, "the warning framed in a numerical code " used by Ely.
It all seems to make sense to me after reading your post.
And I love this re. the 4 elements.
Of all numbers 10 was held in greatest reverence by the Pythagoreans; the sum 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10 was named tetraktys "the holy fourfoldness" , representing the four elements: fire, water, air and earth.
Winsumm- I love the writing as well but what I love best about reading a novel together is that everyone brings a piece of themselves to our discussions along with great information to share. Any of us could find this stuff on Wikipedia but what Kidsal and Gumtree have brought to us right off the "get go", I would be hard pressed to find. The languages, philosophies and the culture is over whelming to me. My book is all marked up with question marks and comments just waiting to be asked aloud.
Claire likes Elgin, our flirtatious blue-eyed, muscular Professor, who likes "the formality " of a large boardroom to interview the interns. It made him feel more imposing::)
Speaking of contrasts- he was raised on a pig farm!!!!!!!!!!!!! Give me a break Elgin.
He's quite the egotist isn't he? pg. 46 is filled with a ga-zillion I's from the mouth of Elgin.
I came as soon as I heard you ere discharged from the hospital, I knew you'd bounce back..
I said at her funeral..
I said her memory would stay....
I said.....
I will think of her ......
That pretty much sums up Elgin to me but apparently every pretty gal has fallen for his charms, including our heroine.
Claire- what did you mean his name was apt? What does Elgin mean?
I don't have time this AM, due to an 8:30 doctor's appt. but when I return I want to talk about contrasts. ciao for now- Ginny will back in shortly. hahahah "Bathroom floor survivors"- been there , done that, too. My only regret was it was NOT in Rome. :'(
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Found you all. I thought there would be a separate heading for the actual discussion. I have been a good person and only read to 112.. I must confess that the dreams and hallucinations threw me a bit, but I like the writing and the plot is interesting. I do honestly read for the plot and characters, not so much for whats behind everything. I love the area and would go to Pompei for a month if I could see how to. I want to go to Naples and have been warned off by everyone.. Not a nice place at all.
Sophie is so obsessed still with Eli.. He sounds thoroughly unpleasant to me, so I guess at this point, I do not understand why she is.. Maybe that will become clearer later.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week 1: (pp-112)
1. Sisyphus! (http://seniornet.org/gallery/latin/Graphics/sisyphus.gif) Sillybos! Persephone! Demeter! Hades! Dionysus! Parthenope! Sirens! Minerva Tyrrhena! Cybele! Harpy! And many more! The first 112 pages are a rich riot of classical allusion. What reference in the first 112 pages would you like to know more about? Choose one which interested you and bring an explanation of it here so we can all learn.
2. "Many are the narthex bearers but few the Bacchoi." (page 76 ) What does this mean? Why is it repeated?
3. What effect does the First Person Narration of the protagonist Sophie and her point of view have on the reader? Do you think this narrator so far is reliable? Why or why not?
4. Both Sophie and Agnes seem to feel guilty about things or overly responsible for events. Why?
5. Do you understand the tetraktys? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/tetractys.jpg) What do 3, 4 and 5 have to do with the triangle of 10 dots (page 29)? Does anyone know anything about Pythagoras or Pythagorean theory? What does the word tetraktys itself mean?
6. What are the some of the main conflicts in this first section?
7. Do you have any personal knowledge or do you know of anybody who has been involved with a modern cult? What do you think the appeal of the modern cult is?
8. Why did Sophie not want to go to Capri? Why did she go? Given her rough start, what would you say the prospects are for a successful time?
9. How many contrasts are there in this section and how are they variously presented? What is their effect? Were there any instances of imagery you particularly liked?
10. We have a lot going on here in this carefully crafted first section: how many parallels so far can you identify? (let's keep a list)
11. What foreshadowing did you notice in these first 112 pages? Was the shooting a surprise to you? Do you think the phone call was from Ely? What if she had picked it up on the 2nd ring?
12. What one thing did you most like about the first 112 pages?
13. New:
Who is the most memorable character in the first 112 pages in your opinion?
14. Would the book have been weakened or made stronger by another type of narrator other than the first person? Why or why not?
15. What is M'Lou doing in the plot? What purpose does she serve?
16. What's THE most important thing about the first 112 pages, in your opinion?
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Schedule
Pages 4 - 112 June 1 - 7
Pages 113 - 204 June 8 - 14
Pages 204 - 291 June 15 - 22
Pages 292/finish June 23 - 30
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
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In the first week of June, Week I we will not talk about anything other than what is contained in the first 112 pages. If your question may pertain to what comes later on, we'll ask you to hold that particular one for the end, so as not to spoil it for the rest.
Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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Roman books as papyrus rolls on shelves with the sillybos on the end.
A lost Roman funerary relief from Neumagen, Germany.
Thanks to Dr. Sider for locating this for us.
New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!
Claire ~
I don't like Elgin as well as you do. Too many professors like him in my various years in grad school ... been there ... don't like that kind of guy.
Taking one choice from a question in the header:
One of the favorite godesses was Demeter who brings forth the fruit of the earth.
In ancient times, the source of good harvests needed to be personified, quite correctly as a godess, rather than a god, just as women are the fruitful human beings.
Demeter was often shown wearing a wreath of ears of corn, as she was especially important to the growing of all grains.
Here's a link:
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/demeter.html (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/demeter.html)
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Gumtree...hello our little nightly fairy on the other side of the world! Wow! your info blew me away. I knew all of that stuff probably meant something, but egads...I am still trying to wrap my brain around it all. Thank you so much for saving me tons of time searching it out. I will have to add some of this to my notebook of clues.
Kidsal...hmmmm seems like love, romance, sex and religion are the center of our plot in some way. Fire, water, air and earth...hmmm the elements we of the human race need to exist. Something is rattling around in my head with the comparisons I just typed, but who knows what??? Have to give this some thought.
Steph...I love how you say, " I do honestly read for the plot and characters, not so much for whats behind everything." Seems that makes for a much relaxed, and enjoyable read, while I am running in circles looking for things that may not mean a hell of beans about anything. lololol After our last book, TGLPPPS I promised myself to try to not go too far away from the plot and characters. I hope I can keep my promise. ::)
I'm going to hold the right to reserve my opinions on Ely and Elgin along with the other men mentioned so far. I can say they all seem a bit odd, and what about Sam's obsession with Agnes? Carol has given us some very strange personalities as far as the men go, and loop them in with the gods and goddesses and I am really scratching my head. As my old Italian Nonna would say....Mama MIA!
Ciao for now..............
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Andrea,
My first - and only - trip to Rome included tripping over a tree root in the sidewalk leading to the Sistine Chapel. I broke my left hand badly, went to the Rome emergency room (don't go there!), got a temporary cast, and flew home the next morning to go to Emory Hospital!
question #1. References: The first pages of The Night Villa provide an excellent background in myth, etc., if a student new to the subject merely looks up all the references. I, myself, have spent some time checking out "silliboi," which Goodman refers to as follows:
“Sillyboi,” I suggest, providing the Greek term for the tags that ancient librarians used to identify papyrus rolls."
I confess that I only looked up 10 or 15 sources (including Greek dictionaries, et al), and found references to rappers, Photo Bucket pages, and on and on, but only one concrete reference - that above of Carol Goodman!
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Bellamarie,
You comment on the odd characters. When I consider that we are meeting them all on a college campus, I think it is usual to find these extremes. Carol has shown us right off that she is going to expose the human-ness of her characters. She seems to move right along with big moves--then I realized that she is a word economist--giving us what is truly important to the unfolding plot [can't say how I know :-\.
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Sooo many thoughts from all of these comments!
One possible foreshadowing may be in the names of two of the characters...ELy and ELgin..and how these characters might be involved in mystery cults...especially the ELeusinian Mystery cult which where originally performed in honor of Demeter and her daughter Persephone.
I was in a sorority in college...the activities of the initiation night were secret (and not much fun)...and fraternaties and sororities have Greek names. Perhaps these could also be considered as modern day "cults" in that attract students who want to identify with a group that has "secrets".
gumtree, thank you for the info on Pythagorus. Have used the Pythagorean Theory in trig, and calculus but the depth of meaning is fascinating.
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I perked up when in Chapter 7 Sophie began wondering whether a series of "coincidences" might actually be coded messages from Ely and that omens (like the dead crow) warnings of what is to come. A little paranoia creeping in? Just before she said yes to going on the expedition, she had a feeling someone was outside. Creepy! Did that have anything to do with her decision? Is she running away from the feeling that Ely was coming for her?
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Steph- she met Ely in grad school and even as an undergraduate he had made a name for himself. He taught himself Greek and I think she admired him. She came to admire more than his brain and a front porch glider swing ::) in short time. The problems began when he started quoting Pythagoras "as if he were quoting a prophet." I felt so saddened as they began to drift apart as he withdrew from her, from sleeping and from everything but the Tetraktys.
Pregnant she found him at the triangle house, fell and lost their child. I don't think she ever stopped loving him, the hollowness remained but he did not.
Remember how fearful she became when the clerk, Charles, told her that Ely was one of the "followers" interested in going to New Mexico?
Cults frighten me, I remember watching the Jim Jones story and being truly mortified, fearing that some day one of my kids would gravitate toward such a thing. Some of these cults are like drugs, making it nearly impossible to reason with a person.
I don't care whether they advocate violence or not, lie or not- it's still a cult and they own you, body and soul!
Of course most people would agree that I wouldn't do well with a vow of silence.:o
Suzie, how clever of you ELy,ELgin,Elusian. I never picked up on that.
Norma-you hit the nail on the head.
Carol has shown us right off that she is going to expose the human-ness of her characters. She seems to move right along with big moves--then I realized that she is a word economist--giving us what is truly important to the unfolding plot [can't say how I know .
Irregardless of how we feel about these characters, they feel so close, don't they as we witness their vulnerable, personal, forgivable selves?
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Frybaby- I just saw your post. I do not believe that Sophie ever feared Ely, did she?
Athena- how awful falling and fracturing your hand as you were entering the Cistene Chapel. No, huh- the Roman hospitals are the pits and should be avoided?
I love referencing all of these mythological gods and goddesses but unfortunately I do not have 10-15 resources. I sure wish I did. One afternoon, in our pre discussion, I spent the entire day looking up these goddesses.
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#11. Was the shooting a surprise to you?
The shooting totally caught me off guard. I thought, holy cow what the heck. Carol had me so engrossed in Agnes's presentation, that I didn't see it coming. I suspected Dale was going to show up, but certainly not there and then.
Frybabe....I'm not so sure I think Sophie decided to go to Italy to run away from the possible person lurking outside her house. I think she could not resist from going after Elgin showed her the scrolls with Iusta's name showing up in Phinea's book. Sophie truly wants some confirmation Iusta was freed. I think she has attached herself and life with Iusta's, and it will giver her some kind of personal peace if she can find this out. I feel like Sophie is looking for some closure in Iusta and her own life, and Italy is certainly one place to begin to get some answers.
I know these first 112 pages have a ton of things going on to keep us busy trying to figure out.
Ciao for now.......
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I rely a lot on the Web for references, ALF.
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Gum, that’s fascinating material about Pythagorous and Pythagoreans. And the Tetraktys. And I’m glad to see it here, as I think that much of this book require us to understand the Pythagoreans and the Tetraktys. Tetra is Greek for ??
Sallie, so was the term women applied only to those who were not virgins? I'm glad you defined the early "narthex." Am not sure I see how it travelled to it's present day definition.
I’ve not quite arrived at page 112, but will soon. But I think we must watch for foreshadowing. On p. 55 Sophie reflects back to Elgin’s comments about her paper – “You’ve romanticized your subject, and overidentified with them (Vitalis and Justa).”
And on p.58 – more fofeshadowing “How likely is it that someone’s going to shoot him [Elgin] twice in one year?”
And on one page I’ve noted the Elgin and Phineas are both Romeos. So trouble is brewing somewhere?
Twenty years ago this summer I visited Naples where son was stationed on the NATO base. I went to Pompeii, Herculaneum, and Capri, kept wishing I had a more complete guide for Pompeii. I had little background for any of it, but loved it all and want to go back.
Naples is not so bad, STeph, a lot of traffic. Crowded, many very SMALL cars, lots of traffic. But the best gelato in the world, and I found every stand.
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I've read the whole book, but promise to keep to the first 112 pages.
Despite the shooting, the first 112 pages mostly concern our heroine's history and character. As it's a first person narration, all our information is coming from her and most of it after she's been shot, pumped full of drugs, and then brewing pneumonia. Maybe this accounts for the somewhat fevered, almost paranoid viewpoint and some dreamy and some downright delusional scenes.
So, is she a reliable narrator of events?
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What great posts here with so much information and good stories about your experiences.
What I enjoy about the book is the fact that it's a mystery that keeps my attention with the great writing and I love the way it is constructed with the parallel stories of the past and present. It's so rich with all of the allusions. I confess that I read it first and didn't stop to look up all of the wonderful images and references to ancient culture and myths with which I wasn't familiar. I'm now going back through the pages and looking up information, as some of you are doing. I enjoyed the book without having done this along the way, but now I'm enjoying learning more about many of the references. I appreciate everyone sharing what they have learned too.
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I'm sharing the references I looked up for Ovid and Ovid's Metamorphoses that is mentioned early in Chapter 1 during the conversation between Dr. Sophie Chase and her student Agnes. I've put them on a page at http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html
If any of you have found other helpful references to Ovid or the Metamorphoses, let me know and I'll add them. Also, I'll go through the previous messages posted by some of you that contain references you've found to other classical allusions and I'll add them to the page so we'll have them in one place. I hope that's okay with you.
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Catbrown, I agree with you if you're doubting that Sophie Chase is a reliable narrator. We only see things from her point of view. She's admitted she's made mistakes about the men in her life. She may not be the best judge of people.
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3. What effect does the First Person Narration of the protagonist Sophie and her point of view have on the reader? Do you think this narrator so far is reliable? Why or why not?[/]
I hesitate on that one. At first Sophie seems to me more like the student herself. She is describing the appearance of Agnes a bit like a man would describe a woman he likes or another girl describing the beauty of a classmate. “She’s sunk back into her chair and her hands, released from the knot she’d wrung them into, fan open, loose and graceful, in her lap, like one of those paper flowers that expand in water”
While Sophie was talking to Agnes about the Papyrus Project her mind was rambling about Agnes’s hands and beauty. It reads like if she is finding her ‘desirable’ but as the narrator and the main character it just doesn’t fit the setting. I find minute details of a situation removes me from the real issue, or it could be a deliberate ploy to bring readers away from the impending drama, or it would explain why Agnes was the target of a violent act. I still don’t think it fits here.
I find Agnes’s character believable, but not Sophie. BTW, why should heroes and heroines look like fashion models in many popular novels, tall, slim, blond, blue eyes, handsome sometimes rich and a genius to boot. Where does that put the other people in real life who are not? Is their life that dull and lonely?
Mind you this is just a first impression on the first pages and as I read up to page 112 and I find that my first impression didn't last as I get immersed in the story.
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That's an interesting impression, Eloise. You seem to be able to keep good track of the narrator. My experience is that I sort of forget that Sophie is the narrator at times and I view her description of some of the details...about Agnes and anyone else... as more objective than is warranted. Probably because I wasn't paying as close attention to the narrator, I didn't get the impression you did of Sophie's "admiration of /desire for" of beautiful Agnes.
I think that for the most part I find the details help to fill out the story rather than distract from it.
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Annotated Links to Classical References in The Night Villa by Carol Goodman (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
Good Page, Marcie.
I hope you will list it with the links in the heading.
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Marcie, I think it’s normal to accept what the narrator says as objective. After all, it’s her story; until proven otherwise, one tends to believe her. But, as some have said, she may not be reliable.
She has confused me about the three volumes of Athenian Nights by Phineas Aulus.
1. Sophie lent three volumes to Agnes, or so she says
2. Agnes can’t remember, thinks there were only two when she returned to Austin from Sweetwater
3. Sam says Dale Henry took one of the books, and that’s why Agnes had only two.
4. Now Sophie says Ely took volume 3 five years ago when he went to New Mexico.
5. So what’s the story on the volume that Charles brought back from Ely in New Mexico – is it the one that Ely took or that Dale Henry took or what?
6. Are we talking three books or four books here?
Also, Charles tells Sophie that the translation isn’t as good as that of LaF. Sophie doesn’t really tell us if it’s the same book or not, but you’d think she might at least comment on the translator.
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The thing about Sophie is that she seems a tad overwrought, perhaps because of the shooting. But, still, even her descriptions of past events tend toward the melodramatic as do her current perceptions, particularly of the men in her life.
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What I surmised as far as the third volume is this....Sophie thought she loaned it to Agnes. Agnes wasn't so sure she did. According to Sam, Dale had it the day he went on his shooting spree. As for Ely taking it with him, and then 5 years later having Charles return it, makes this entire thing, PAZZO!!!!!!! (For those who don't speak Italian....CRAZY!!!!)
By the way the narrator says things happened, happen, yet don't happen, or seem to happen, where Sophie is concerned, I am beginning to think it is all a delirious dream. Could she be in a mental institution having a break down? Everything she supposedly has lived through up to now, would account for one.
Is she actually in Italy? Did the shooting take place? Did she have a baby? Was there an Ely? Every single thing I have read up to page 112 is to say the least questionable to me. I honestly can not believe for one second, someone getting out of the hospital with half of her lung gone, coming home, mowing a lawn and then jetting off to Italy, and trekking up the hills and tunnels etc. to the villa, in the blazing heat. The logical result would be her collasping on the floor and having her delirious visions of the tiles. But my logic says......HUH?? There is no remote possibility, her health condition, would have even allowed her to get up the hill the first time to the hotel.
This entire story is way too out there for one normal person. My suspicions started kicking in when the whole Ely cult started, then when she kept going back to talk to Charles, and the whole cat thing, and now the entire visit to the villa made NO sense to me. I kept asking myself, "Why doesn't she answer the phone?" If she is so much in love with Ely, and the numerology was a code he would use, then why NOT answer the phone. Sophie, Agnes and Iusta all seem to be enslaved, needing to be freed.
Does anyone remember the book "Seven Sisters"? This is starting to make me think of that book.
All I got left to say right now is, Mama Mia!!!
Ciao for now....................
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confession: Carol Goodman has me hooked I'm finishing THE LAKE OF DEAD LANGUAGES, finished THE SONATE LOVER, and also this book. and I keep getting them mixed up as if they all belong in a series of some sort I have another couple of samples on my kindle awaiting me.
as for references, I use google. But having read too far ahead and confused myself I'll just lurk and enjoy all of you and your commments. I read for the story line first and then go back and pick up the subtleties I've missed.
She has a thing about PETALS, in the Sonate Lover. it must mean something -- will google.
here it is and it fits in with the theme of that novel.
http://www.rosegathering.com/petals.html
claire
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Regarding Volume 3 of Athenian Nights, I was under the impression that Sam didn't know whether it was THE volume or not, just that it had a red cover. He and Sophie are ASSUMING it was. It does seem odd, however, that the volume would have been missing for five years without Sophie noticing it before. I guess we will have to wait and see if there was more of a connection between Dale and Ely than the bookstore.
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Carol, in case you are here reading these post. I have high respect for you and don't pay any attention to my rants. As you can see, I am Italian descent, and that's how we express ourselves. Your book has me in fits! I can imagine you sitting back, having fun with this. ::)
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I'll have to go back to re-read the section about the missing book to refresh my memory.
LOL, Bellamarie. I love your comment about the series of events being "PAZZO"!!
I also think you have a good insight when you say "Sophie, Agnes and Iusta all seem to be enslaved, needing to be freed." I think you are right.
Winsummm, I agree with you that there are similarities among some of Carol's books. Certain themes are in many of them. I enjoy that.
I'll keep going through the messages and will add more links to the resources page at http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html. I've put the link to the page in the heading of this discussion at the top of the page (in the Interesting Links section.)
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Hi everybody! I love how closely you're all reading NIGHT VILLA. It's a little daunting! I'm afraid if I comment too much on questions now, I'll give away plot points for later. Let me know if you want me to, though!
I love, too, the visuals you have posted at the beginning! Sisyphus pushing the rock up the hill is adorable! I can't imagine having better readers!
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Carol- well there you are, you have found us! Welcome to your first SeniorLearn adventure and we hope that you will enjoy being here with us as much as we are delighted to have you.
Please, do not be alarmed or intimidated here with us. One thing, our readers are exceptionally thorough and will intensively inquire and scrupulously dig until they have their answer. We have been known to exhaust a topic. I knew after meeting you that we wouldn't scare you off and you would be happy to answer all the questions. However, I do agree that if you answer some of the points that have been raised so early it would become a "spoiler", as many of these issues will be addressed as we progress.(Of course I've cheated and read on ahead.) We will all be like Sisyphus and tredge uphill together.
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QUESTIONS FOR CAROL
Welcome, Carol! Whoop! I've been trying to get in here all day and I picked a good time! Thank you for coming in! So glad you like the illustrations!
I think we're off to a grand start here, and everybody is supposed to put questions for you (and you're right, don't answer one now that will spoil the plot) but everybody is supposed to put Questions for Carol in the subject line so you'll know what to (possibly, your choice) answer.
I've got some, answer or not as you choose!
1. Many of us here have encountered some "Elgins" in our forays into Academia. Did you base him on any one person or an amalgam of several people? (or can't you answer that one?) Have you encountered an Elgin along the way? Are they always in Classics or is it more widespread? hahaha
2. Are you the first person to make a cult of Tetratkys or is there one somewhere?
3. "flat on the stone floor so that I can see the tiles better." Carol what is this type of expression called? I know you teach writing, it's driving me crazy. It's very well done, what IS it? I looked up a bunch of literary definitions, is it synaesthesia? Or irony? Or what literary technique is it called? Obviously I don't have a clue, but I really love whatever it is.
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Bellamarie- what better tribute can you offer an author than to dissect their book? If I were a writer I would love the fact that someone is reading, positing and inquiring as they get further into the characters.
Winsummm, I agree with you that there are similarities among some of Carol's books. Certain themes are in many of them. I enjoy that.
If you get a chance read the interview above that we had with Carol in NY City. One of the questions that I asked was her themes of dark, murky waters and having to swim through them. Here again, in The night Villa, another heroine is faced with water and so was Sophie's mother.
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I have a question as well Carol.
I was blown away with the use of imagry in these first 112 pages. The contrast between black and white is stark. I first noticed it when Sophie was looking for Ely and "the wind picked up the fluffy white spores from the cottonwood trees."
The physician referred to xray by pointing to the ghostly white shape lurking beneath her rib cage.
What about M"Lou's eyes looking black in the picture with Sophie's mother?
or... mothers ego looked black!
When she entered Ely's room she found it completely black ... one window covered with a black out shade, edges sealed with black electricical tape. A reference to a cave, aha! Is that what you are going for with this contrast black/white?
It took her 5 coats of white latex enamel paint to cover the walls.
Even the brightly colored modern paperbacks are all arraye like sentinels against the dark. (I loved that image.)
pg. 45 you mention the black/white image beginning with the cool white depths of the fridge. There are references to dark brises under Ely's eyes and sunlight, overhead lights (white) Agnes'es UT sweatshirt accentuates her pallor and the dark rings under her eyes.
Sophie sees Ely's writing as a letter glowing starkly white against the black and then each letters acquires a halo that flames red in the darkness. Oh by the way, Carol, red is another bloody colore used often in this theme.
When Sophie first meets Gus, the cat, she notes the maelstrom of black and white fur, with a white triangle over his nose. On that same visit, Charles describes Ely's emptiness as being like a black hole, dragging everybody into it.
The black crow with the melee of black feathers is mentioned. "They're pyschopomps- messengers sent to lead the sould into the underworld. "
Is that what the black is all about?
In Naples, Sophie notes the walls of the Hotel Convento are pearly white and when she descends into delerium she lays on white tiles.
Is this a foreshadowing, I wonder of the house of Night in the underworld that Hesiod wrote of, ""ghastly clouds shroud it in darkness."
These many inferences to dark vs. light became a game for me. Good vs. evil?
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This discussion is making my head swim. You all have so many interesting facts and references to share. So much I glossed over when reading because I was caught up in the fast developing plot has been highlighted here so that i need to reread some parts.
Sophie's (Carol's) language is delightful. The paper flower/hands image was enchanting. I sense no hint of sexual attraction in her admiriation of Agnes' beauty, it seems to be merely that same mental ecstacy one encounters whe we see a perfect rose or spectacular sunset. Leaves us breathless in awe.
Every school has an Elgin. We had one, don't remember what area he taught in but we all saw him tooling around in his convertable with one pretty coed after another. But he was young; harder to explain are the older men who still seem to have their pick of the pretty girls.
SInce philosophy and I are enemies I sort of skim the mythological stuff. The character who piques my inerest is the host, the former enfant terrible of the silicon world. (Can't remember his name.)
Serendipity strikes; while reading this I finished Mad Dash by Patricia Gaffney whose protagonist is married to a professor of history, and began Last Rituals by Yrsa Sifurdsdottir about the murder in Iceland of a German history graduate student. Purely happenstance.
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We're off to a roaring start, you're all dazzling~! I printed out 23 pages of your great thoughts and we're all over everywhere, just great stuff.
So what's the strongest thing so far, Stephanie reads for character and plot, which is the strongest thing here so far in YOUR opinions?
Those of you taken a bit aback by the first person narrator, would the book have been weakened or made stronger by another type of narration? Why or why not?
I am thinking that the character of an Unreliable Narrator (somebody PLEASE correct me) does not necessarily rely upon bizarre dreams or injury/ drug induced hallucinations, but rather the character's truly telling his own story, and our believing it, only to find out it was something entirely otherwise.
For instance Ishiguro's Remains of the Day has to be one of the great examples of the unreliable narrator.
He fooled himself and us, it was a powerful thing. And very poignant. I keep asking myself in this what is real? What is not?
I don't think she cut the grass, bellamarie, that's a good point. I think she was in the grip of powerful drugs which (Andrea being a nurse can attest) often have people seeing things on the walls (remember The Yellow Wallpaper?)
I liked the way Cathy put this: Maybe this accounts for the somewhat fevered, almost paranoid viewpoint and some dreamy and some downright delusional scenes.
The Seven Sisters was another great unreliable narrator example, bella, but in that one the reader was deliberately misled, and when you do that you risk alienating the reader (she sure did me hahahaa), so we'll have to watch here.
You all have really torn this up! The books! I missed that entirely but I guarantee you I could lose one for 5 years and never know it (the duplicates sitting on my shelves attest to that).
You all are sharp and one thing I like is that in THIS book things do mean something and so it's so much more fun (than, say Seven Sisters) to carefully pay attention to what's said and find out it DID matter. I mean I recall obsessing over that stupid golden Christmas tree and it meant NOTHING!
Gum thank you for the Tetraktys, I have read that probably 10 times, and it still means nothing to me. Isn't Pythagoras one of the authors they hope to find in the real Villa Della Papiri? How can it be that one's brain is so pathetic that it can't comprehend a couple of numbers? I sure hope they are not the key to anything or I'm dead (and I've read the book twice) hahahaa
But I liked the 10 thing. The house where Ely went was number 10. We need to keep track of these parallels.
The Tetraktys as a cult. The Mystery Cults. Parallel. We've...it's almost like a parallel universe here, one in the past and one in the present and Sophie is the channeller. I keep thinking about Demeter and Persephone, too, Mippy, thank you for that link.
That is a very old myth, and it occurs in several cultures in different forms. And what, one wonders, does it have to do with what we're talking about?
What about the drowning images? Those were parallels, too, between Sophie and Ely I'm having a problem (at this point) getting a handle on Ely. One thing we'll want to watch for is IF any of the characters change as they develop, including Sophie. What is it they give the Oscar for? Which character has shown the most development?
Oh I just thought of another parallel? Agnes with Dale and Sophie with Ely?
And what is M'Lou doing in the plot? What purpose does she serve?
Why do you suppose Sophie thought that Ely was trying to contact her? what would have happened if she had picked up the phone on the second ring? Why did she not?
Athena, what an awful experience for you! I am sorry! I have not been in an Italian hospital, knock on wood, but I don't think it's on my agenda haahhaa. However my dentist told me that I could have done worse than to seek attention for my tooth last year in Italy, very advanced so he said and less expensive! That's good to know when a crown falls off with about 1 week left in the trip. :)
Kidsal, thank you for the Plato definition of Many are the narthex bearers, but few the Bacchoi.
What do you think it means here? It's repeated twice at least. We can see what it meant, thanks to you, what does it mean here? Why is it here?
Frybabe, good one, bookstore, missed that entirely. This is a very carefully crafted plot here, nothing sloppy, nothing for no reason. Oh!! I just caught this in your post: Regarding Volume 3 of Athenian Nights, Oh Athenian nights, it all ties together!
I don't know anything about lung damage but I have been idly wondering WHY? Why is the protagonist wounded as it were initially? I am confident there is a reason.
These are good questions bellamarie asks: Is she actually in Italy? Did the shooting take place? Did she have a baby? Was there an Ely? We do need to try to figure out what's real and what's not.
I personally absolutely LOVE the way her mind goes off on the ancient world, it's a nice foreshadowing of what's coming.
HO! Pedln! Tetra is Greek for ?? What an innocent sweet little question that is! Tetra we all think of as 4, right? I was going to be smart and so I looked up the etymology of tetraktys. I recommend it for EVERYBODY'S own crossing into the Twilight Zone, it's unreal! Look it up! All I know is it's pronounced tet TRACK tiss.
I think.
Fabulous start! Too long, not finished, hold on....
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Hello, Carol. Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to our questions as we discuss your wonderful book.
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I know you probably can not answer this question right now, but I must ask, how on earth is Sophie capable of mowing her lawn the first day out of the hospital, then go traveling, climbing steep hills, riding stuffy trollys, trekking through tunnels etc. so soon after a major injury to her lung? In all reality it is not possible, so my next question is this.....
Is Sophie a human character or is she a figment of a story or dream?
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mrssherlock...."This discussion is making my head swim."
Welcome to our pool of insanity, jump in the water is fine, just not sure if our minds are though. ;D
ALF.....I was noticing how Carol uses color throughout, especially when she describes eyes. Great pick up on all the black and white used. Phew... one more thing to question. lol
Ginny...Yes, I remember how there was so much concentration on that silly Christmas tree. lolol I don't know why this book started reminding me of The Seven Sisters. Its like its going in places that don't make sense, much like SS did.
Carol, I just know you are sitting back like the chesquire cat grinning at us.
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Eloise you said
I find Agnes’s character believable, but not Sophie.
Why not?
I missed that entirely on Agnes, but there was something about Agnes herself that I keep having a slight problem with, all that guilt, (paralleled in Sophie's guilt which she keeps expressing), like "I felt at least as responsible for what happened as that counselor." (page 49). Why?
Mrs. Sherlock, do you mean John Lyros?
Andrea: now THERE'S analysis! Colors, black, white, red, your book must look like mine!
I do hate to pull out the word THEME here as it's too early but what would you call it? What are some of the themes we see developing here? I need to put all these new questions in the heading.
I really liked Norma's word economist, too, but such richness in the descriptions!
Pedln, great examples of foreshadowing,
“How likely is it that someone’s going to shoot him [Elgin] twice in one year?” I just flew over that one.
Here's another big foreshadowing: page 111: "And I couldn't help wondering, since my grandmother was always telling me how alike we were, if the same thing mightn't happen to me." (She's talking about how her mother drowned on page 110). Didn't Ely's brother drown? And so they have that in common.
And here's another one: page 109:
...in the faint stir of air playing over my soaked T- shirt. Had I gone swimming after all? I wonder. I can't remember. My whole body aches as if I had swum the length of the Bay of Naples. My lunge feel as if I've inhaled dirty seawater, and the air in the room ripples as if even now I'm underwater....
Look at this! Hotel Il Convento in Naples!
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tripadvisor.com%2FHotel_Review-g187785-d275674-Reviews-Hotel_Il_Convento-Naples_Campania.html&ei=TXckSoThNIjBtweumsXbBg&usg=AFQjCNGjpMA1FnXvnWtBsa7I4FNfPV4A3g&sig2=k2Cicigm6nP2iFaK9OWCNw
I can't seem to make a link otherwise, this is Trip Advisor, do you think Carol made this name up or do you think this IS the one? One review remarks on the air conditioning but that does not mean a thing. At all. Most of the old convents are not air conditioned, but some are, and room A may work when room B does not.
Pedln, that's a great observation on the Reverend FP Long translation and the LaFleur (the current editor of Wheelock). I don't know what else he's translated but I am sure there's a list, but what of "FP Long?"I am caught up in the apparent dichotomy here. There are SO many many forgotten translators like this "FP Long," you can see them listed everywhere. Was HE real?
LaFleur is, I laughed to see that name too, nice touch.
Here's an example of (mostly) forgotten translators of the Aeneid:
Thomas May; Gavin Douglas (V, 1553)
Robert Singleton (V, 1855)
H. Rushton Fairclough* (P, 1916, 1932)
Thomas Phaer and Thomas Twyne (V, 1573)
John Miller (BV, 1863)
John Jackson (1921)
John Vicars (V, 1632)
John Rose (1867)
Frank Richards (1928)
John Ogilby (1649)
John Conington* (V, 1867)
Rolfe Humphries* (BV, 1951)
John Dryden* (V, 1693-1700)
Christopher Cranch (BV, 1872, 1886)
C. Day Lewis* (BV, 1952)
Richard Lauderdale (1700)
W. Lucas Collins (1874)
Kevin Guinagh* (P, 1953)
Nicholas Brady (BV, 1716)
Henry Pierce (P, 1879, 1883)
W.F. Jackson Knight* (P, 1956, 1958)
Joseph Trapp (BV, 1720, 1731)
Thomas Burt (BV, 1883)
Patric Dickinson* (BV, 1961)
Christopher Pitt (1731, 1753)
John Wilstach (V, 1884)
L.R. Lind* (BV, 1962)
Joseph Davidson (P, 1743)
J[ohn] W[illiam] Mackail* (1885)
James H. Mantinband (1964)
Robert Andrews (1766)
William Thornhill (BV, 1886)
Frank Copley* (BV, 1965, 1975)
Alexander Strahan (BV, 1767)
A. Hamilton Bryce (1894)
Allen Mandelbaum* (BV, 1971)
William Melmoth (1790)
John Conington and J.A. Symonds* (V, 18uu)
Robert Fitzgerald* (BV, 1983)
James Beresford (BV, 1794)
John Long (1900) C.H. Sisson* (BV, 1986)
Caleb Alexander (P, 1796)
Charles Billson* (BV, 1906)
David West* (P, 1991)
Charles Symmons (1817)
Michael Oakley* (1907)
Edward McCrorie* (BV, 1995)
Levi Hart and V.R. Osborn (P, 1833)
James Rhoades (V, 1907, 1921)
Richard S. Caldwell (BV, 2004)
J.M. King (1847)
Edward Taylor (1907)
G.B. Cobbold (P, 2005)
Joseph Owgan (P, 1853)
Theodore Williams (V, 1908)
Stanley Lombardo (BV, 2005)
George Wheeler (P, 1853)
Arthur S. Way * (V, 1916)
Robert Fagles (BV, 2006)
So there are untold armies of respected translators. I can't find FP Long anywhere on Google, can you? Am I not looking in the right place? Lots of those old ones are Reverends and lots of them are in obscure colleges, but...where is he? This is the kind of exploration that I absolutely love but is it a blind alley? Who can find the Reverend FP Long who translated this non existent author Phineas Aulus and his equally not real Athenian Nights in 1911? Do we have again a parallel, sort of reversed? ?
What a day~ What a start! But what's THE most important thing about the first 112 pages, in your opinion?
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Hi, I finally got here, and have read the first passage. I'm really enjoying the book: there is so much in it, and so many ways it could go.
I agree with those who see the shooting as foreshadowing. clearly, Sophie feels that, and so do we, looking at (the sofar absent) Ely as scary and dangerous. And I'm glad others noticed the confusion over Volume 3 -- it drove me nuts!
One theme that may run through Carol's books is numerology(?) The link about the rose above gives signifigence to the 1st, 2nd, ... petal. And I've heard Pythagorus referred to as the father of numerology.
I remember Pythagorus in reference to the number zero: which had a mystic meaning for him. This was at a time when the numbering system did not contain a zero; the introduction of zero was considered blasphemous by some, as it implied that the gods could allow nothing to exist. Apparantly, assigning mystic meanings to numbers was common for the Greeks (?) Was it also for the Romans?
The "tetra (four) was explained above: P would form triangles of numbers with 4 on a side.
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In my opinion, THE most important thing about the first 112 pages, is that whether it be Agnes, Sophie, Iustas or Persephone, bad things happen in your life, that you are not able to always control. I think in each of these characters, real or not, there is a lesson to learn from them. They each had situations that caused them hurt or harm at the hands of a man. Their innocence was robbed from them. Their trust in love, and in men, proved to cause them enormous consequences. Each of the female figures, past or present, real or unreal, here or in the after life, show that you can not always trust in human nature/mankind.
All the male figures so far do not bode well in my opinion. I also can't help but notice the "cult mentality" of the men. They are weak, so they succumb to self destructive behavior. They all needed control over women. Rape is not about sex, it is about power and control, the erotic frescoes in the villa even painted under supervision of John Lyros is not so much about art, as I see it is about men placing women in weakened positions for their own self satisfaction.
Maybe the theme of this is about women freeing themselves from the hands of men. Women empowering them selves.
I was curious about Ovid's Metamorphoses, since this seems to be the reason for the trip to Italy, hence the Papyrus Project..(Role of women in mystery project.)
This particular site, I think answers a lot of questions, and gives me a clearer insight into Carol's inspiration for this book.
http://larryavisbrown.homestead.com/files/xeno.ovid1.htm
Introduction:
Ovid's influence on Western art and literature cannot be exaggerated. The Metamorphoses is our best classical source of 250 myths. "The poem is the most comprehensive, creative mythological work that has come down to us from antiquity" (Galinsky). Based on its influence, "European literature and art would be poorer for the loss of the Metamorphoses than for the loss of Homer" (Hadas). Ovid was a major inspiration for Dante, Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton (see bibliography on last page). If Virgil is Rome's greatest poet, Ovid is the most popular (even in his own time; Ovidian graffiti has been found on the walls of Pompeii).
Biography:
Publius Ovidius Naso (43 BC - 18 AD). Ovid seems to have believed in art for pleasure's sake, having no ethical agenda for his writings, unlike his predecessor Virgil, who wrote for the betterment of Romans. Ovid's other works include: Medea (a tragedy, no longer extant), Heroides (letters to legendary heroes from their wives; read them here), Amores (poetic essays on love), The Art of Love (advice on how to seduce a woman; scandalous in Augustus' time, one possible reason for Ovid's banishment in 8 AD), the Fasti (a poetic calendar of religious festivals). Ovid offered something of an apology for his immoral reputation (Tristia 2:354): "My life is respectable, my Muse is full of jesting. A book is not evidence of one's soul."
Organization:
In the first verses of the Metamorphoses, Ovid claims to write one continuous epic, not an anthology of myths. Unlike the Iliad, however, there is no central hero, thus no simple Aristotelian unity to the work. So what binds this poem together, making it more than a random collection of stories? We might first consider three superficial strategies of unity within the poem:
1. All of Ovid's tales involve metamorphosis. But some stories (see Phaethon, Pentheus, Heracles) only have metamorphosis tacked on as an incidental element, almost as an afterthought. Ovid is more interested in metamorphosis as a universal principle which explains the nature of the world: Troy falls, Rome rises. Nothing is permanent.
2. Chronological progression: Ovid begins his poem with the story of creation and the flood, and ends in his own day with Augustus on the throne. However, chronology becomes unimportant in the vast middle section of work, as seen by the numerous anachronisms throughout (see notes on Callisto, Atlas, Cycnus stories for examples).
3. Transitional links: Ovid continually surprises us, as we never know where he's going next. He changes strategies using several techniques:
o He follows the same character through different adventures (Perseus, Hercules).
o He tells a story within a story: to put Argus to sleep, Mercury tells another story, becoming an internal narrator within Ovid's story.
o He "slides" from the story of one character to that of a relative or friend (Epaphus and Phaethon, end of book 1).
o He even will note the absence of a character in one tale as an introduction to a new story (Tereus, book 6).
These different types of links provide only a superficial continuity to the poem. A better way of viewing the artistic unity of the Metamorphoses considers Ovid's use of "theme with variations." For example, in Books 1-2, there are five variations (at least) of the virgin-pursued-by-god theme:
1.Daphne and Apollo: with focus on the chase, her metamorphosis into a tree serves as Daphne's means of escape.
2. Jupiter and Io: with emphasis on Hera, the jealous wife, and the metamorphosis as Io's disguise in hiding from Hera (both these early instances make the gods appear comic).
3. Syrinx and Pan: a meta-narrative or story within a story, told by Mercury, serving to put Argus to sleep.
4. Jupiter and Callisto: similar to the Juno/Io plot but not treated comically; this more serious tale prepares for the later savage treatment of Semele and Ino by the gods; here metamorphosis serves as apotheosis (Callisto taken up to heaven as a constellation).
5. Jupiter and Europa: serves primarily as a transition to the story in Book 3 of Cadmus' exile.
This pattern of theme and variations gives Ovid numerous means to tell his stories in inventive ways, weaving a complex web of interrelationships throughout the entire work. This thesis, suggested by Brooks Otis (Ovid as an Epic Poet, 1970), will organize (with some modification) the following discussion notes.
Otis sees four major divisions (after a prologue depicting the Creation and primordial events) to the Metamorphoses:
I. "Divine Comedy" or Gods in Love: Books 1-2
II. "Avenging Gods": Books 3-6, line 400 (up to the story of Tereus and Procne)
III. "Pathos of Love": the rest of Book 6-11
IV. "History of Rome & the Deified Caesar": Books 12-15
I especially found this interesting........................................
Following this outline, we see a general movement from gods acting like humans (section I), to humans suffering at the hands of gods (II), to humans suffering at the hands of humans (III), to humans becoming gods (IV).
Each section prepares the reader for future sections: the tales of the Minyads (section II, book 4) foreshadow the thwarted or forbidden loves in section III; Hercules' becoming a god (section III, book 9) points toward those later of Aeneas, Romulus, Caesar (section IV). Thus, throughout the work Ovid creates a complex chain of interconnecting themes.
Ciao for now........................
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5. Do you understand the tetraktys? What do 3, 4 and 5 have to do with the triangle of 10 dots (page 29)? Does anyone know anything about Pythagoras or Pythagorean theory? What does the word tetraktys itself mean?
http://blog.institutpythagore.net/post/2008/09/14/Le-theoreme-de-Pythagore
From L'Intitute de Pythagore and interesting graphic explaining the origin of Pythagorean theorem from as far back as antiquity.
The 13 knots rope was used by Egyptian Surveyers to measure distance.
Cette corde permettait de mesurer des distances mais aussi de construire, sans équerre, un angle droit puisque les 13 nœuds (et les douze intervalles) permettaient de construire un triangle dont les dimensions étaient (3 - 4 - 5), triangle qui s'avère être rectangle. Cette corde restera un outil de géomètre pendant encore tout le Moyen Âge.
This rope was used to measure distance but also to build, without a (équerre) square? a right angle because the 13 knots and the 12 intervals permitted to build a triangle which dimensions were (3-4-5) triangle which proves to be a rectangle. This rope remained a surveyor’s tool during all of the Middle Age.
I am sorry I couldn't find the equivalent in English.
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I suspect it is silly, but Elgin for me reminded me of the Elgin Marbles in England. I wondered if this Elgin had ulterior motives for going on this dig.
Sophie seems to have been hallucinating a lot after the shooting. I keep getting the creepy feeling that she equates Eli with the shooter.
Agnes on the other hand. I am not fond of Agnes at this point. Something about her disturbs me and I honestly am not sure what.
I like the narrative form. I guess I also am falling for believing Sophie, but then again in any book, you need to believe someone..
Numberology is not an interest of mine.. Cults however are.. Just never heard of one revolving around numberology.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week 1: (pp-112)
1. Sisyphus! (http://seniornet.org/gallery/latin/Graphics/sisyphus.gif) Sillybos! Persephone! Demeter! Hades! Dionysus! Parthenope! Sirens! Minerva Tyrrhena! Cybele! Harpy! And many more! The first 112 pages are a rich riot of classical allusion. What reference in the first 112 pages would you like to know more about? Choose one which interested you and bring an explanation of it here so we can all learn.
2. "Many are the narthex bearers but few the Bacchoi." (page 76 ) What does this mean? Why is it repeated?
3. What effect does the First Person Narration of the protagonist Sophie and her point of view have on the reader? Do you think this narrator so far is reliable? Why or why not?
4. Both Sophie and Agnes seem to feel guilty about things or overly responsible for events. Why?
5. Do you understand the tetraktys? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/tetractys.jpg) What do 3, 4 and 5 have to do with the triangle of 10 dots (page 29)? Does anyone know anything about Pythagoras or Pythagorean theory? What does the word tetraktys itself mean?
6. What are the some of the main conflicts in this first section?
7. Do you have any personal knowledge or do you know of anybody who has been involved with a modern cult? What do you think the appeal of the modern cult is?
8. Why did Sophie not want to go to Capri? Why did she go? Given her rough start, what would you say the prospects are for a successful time?
9. How many contrasts are there in this section and how are they variously presented? What is their effect? Were there any instances of imagery you particularly liked?
10. We have a lot going on here in this carefully crafted first section: how many parallels so far can you identify? (let's keep a list)
11. What foreshadowing did you notice in these first 112 pages? Was the shooting a surprise to you? Do you think the phone call was from Ely? What if she had picked it up on the 2nd ring?
12. What one thing did you most like about the first 112 pages?
13. What are some of the emerging themes of this first section?[/b]
-------------1. death (and the possibility of rebirth?)-- the shootings (Deems)
-------------2. being buried alive (Deems)
-------------3. suffocation--Sophie's lungs, the nuns cells (Deems)
-------------4. a descent into the underworld (Deems)
--------------5. drowning (ginny)
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Schedule
Chapters 1-9 for June 1 - 7
Chapters 10-16 for June 8 - 14
Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22
Chapters 25-End for June 23 - 30
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
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In the first week of June, Week I we will not talk about anything other than what is contained in the first 112 pages. If your question may pertain to what comes later on, we'll ask you to hold that particular one for the end, so as not to spoil it for the rest.
Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrirollsonshelfbr.jpg)
Roman books as papyrus rolls on shelves with the sillybos on the end.
A lost Roman funerary relief from Neumagen, Germany.
Thanks to Dr. Sider for locating this for us.
New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!
QUESTIONS FOR CAROL
I was having some issues with my computer last night while trying to post so I will try to highlight some of the interesting parts of Ovid's Metamorphoses.
First off...."Ovid seems to have believed in art for pleasure's sake, having no ethical agenda for his writings"
I think this backs up my idea that the men used women in their art for their own self satisfaction. The men so far in the first 112 pages seem to use women more as objects for their sexual pleasures.
This is interesting..."The Art of Love (advice on how to seduce a woman; scandalous in Augustus' time, one possible reason for Ovid's banishment in 8 AD), the Fasti (a poetic calendar of religious festivals). Ovid offered something of an apology for his immoral reputation (Tristia 2:354): "My life is respectable, my Muse is full of jesting. A book is not evidence of one's soul."
What do all of you think of that statement? I think, in some way your work has to represent the person you are, although I think if an author wants to use the shock value in his writings, then possibly it has not much to do with his soul more so his creativeness.
This sort of reminds me of today when comics, musicians, etc. are allowed to make such racial, insulting and vulgar comments and be excused because it is considered art, comedy or entertainment. Where does an artist, writer, actor or comedian become accountable for mistreatment of others, all in the name of art, creativeness or entertainment?
"Ovid continually surprises us, as we never know where he's going next. He changes strategies using several techniques:
He follows the same character through different adventures (Perseus, Hercules).
He tells a story within a story: to put Argus to sleep, Mercury tells another story, becoming an internal narrator within Ovid's story.
He "slides" from the story of one character to that of a relative or friend (Epaphus and Phaethon, end of book 1).
He even will note the absence of a character in one tale as an introduction to a new story"
I see this throughout these first 112 pages, especially with Sophie. Although, Ely is also jumping all around from story to story too.
"Following this outline, we see a general movement from gods acting like humans (section I), to humans suffering at the hands of gods (II), to humans suffering at the hands of humans (III), to humans becoming gods (IV)."
After reading this particular paragraph, it made sense to me why I am not so sure if any person in the book is real. I see them changing from humans to gods and vice versa.
And lastly, this strengthens my thoughts on "forbidden love."
"Each section prepares the reader for future sections: the tales of the Minyads (section II, book 4) foreshadow the thwarted or forbidden loves in section III"
So, I guess after depicting Ovid's Metamorphoses I have to ask Carol the author..... Did you use these writing styles and techiques? Was Ovid your inspiration for this book? Is "forbidden love" your theme along with women being freed from the hands of men?[/color]
I can't wait to hear all your thoughts. Sorry this was lengthy, I was in fits last night trying to put this all together, and after many attempts, my computer just was not cooperating. Went back to old Nellie this morning. Tried and true.
Ciao for now.......
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Gosh! - I went to bed - had a busy day and then came in to find so many posts it will take me all night to read them. :o
Athena 's comments on the sillyboi led me to chase resources myself so here's link you might like to see - if you click on the example it will take you to another example of sillyboi and if you click on the tiny picture it will enlarge...
sillyboi (http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/POxy/VExhibition/scribes_scholars/booktag2.html)
And did you know that from the Greek word 'sillyboi' we get our word 'syllabus' . I think the Roman had another word for it from which we get 'title'
And yes, Bellamarie it's me, the Aussie tooth fairy - I wondered where you had gone - but I'm glad to say you seem to be in great form.
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Steph- Elgin's (or Professor Romeo, aptly named by Odette) project with the papyrus scrolls was funded by the PISA, the Pontificia Instituto Sacra Archeologia (whew that's a mouthful.) Funding was granted on the grounds that one of the charred scrolls found in the villa might contain an early Christian document. He also found the Lyrik Foundation as a recent benefactor for the project. Phineus was Elgin's specialty and finding another book would be a major breakthrough for Elgin. When he found out that Gaius Petronius Stephanuses in Herculeneum was the original owner of this lost document he persuaded Sophie to go with the team. He knew she was smitten with the story of Petronia Iusta, the slave owned by Gaius.
Agnes, to me, comes across as being childlike, protected and quite naive, :) I don't feel much for or against her character other that the fact that Sophie feels the over whelming desire to protect her, this minister's daughter.
I love our narrator, I can relate to her. She's stubborn, matter of fact and skeptical. ;D
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Welcome JoanK- I hope that your difficulties with the computer have now come to an end. Welcome to the Night Villa.
" the introduction of zero was considered blasphemous by some, as it implied that the gods could allow nothing to exist. Apparantly, assigning mystic meanings to numbers was common for the Greeks (?) Was it also for the Romans?"
That would be an ideal question for our author to answer.
Eloise- bonjor. I love it when you are in a book discussion, especially when you post in French. I always try to read it (without peeking at the English), recite it and then laugh at myself when you translate the true meaning.
Thank you for the 13 knots rope that was used much earlier than our story takes place.
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I meant to add that there is a lot of interesting material on the 'sillyboi' site - just look around...
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QUESTION FOR CAROL
Bellemarie- thanks for the information on Ovid's metamorphosis. This whole novel is about metamorphosis; everything in transforming and changing, particularly our characters. They each evolve into something we do not expect.
Rebirth and transfiguration abounds. Carol do you believe in Reincarnaation, I wonder?
Athena and Gumtree have given us comments and links to sillyboi that I must read. I've been concentrating too much on the SILLY BOY, Elgin.
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This sort of reminds me of today when comics, musicians, etc. are allowed to make such racial, insulting and vulgar comments and be excused because it is considered art, comedy or entertainment. Where does an artist, writer, actor or comedian become accountable for mistreatment of others, all in the name of art, creativeness or entertainment
This is inticing thugs to acts of violence IMO. I see comic books for little tots full of violence and verbal abuse, comical they are not but they sell.
OK, I am trying to pinpoint the reason why I find Agnes more believable than Sophie but I can't quote everything, still this narration for me doesn't quite make Sophie believable:
"Not Agnes too. She hasn't gotten caught in his web. has she? Elgin Lawrence has a history of seducing his teaching assistants, and Agnes is just his type and not just because she's beautiful. He prays on young girls who are insecure."
Call me a prude, OK, but IMO a University Professor praying on a young, insecure teaching assistant could not be respectable, honest or competent unless I am very naïve and not modern enough. That is just one of the things that bother me about Sophie. She seems to think Oh! well what can you do, Elgin is a bit of a playboy, so what! Who is she kidding here?
When the narrator is both subjective and objective in the same sentence, that creates confusion. She is trying to be objective but little things keeps cropping up subjectively like when Sophie becomes emotional. That is what is hard in First Person Narration, you have to choose between one and the other.
Hi! Carol, forgive my ranting, I am going to concentrate on the story for now. That will take me to ITALY, a country that I absolutely love and I still fondly recall my visits over the years to Rome Venice, Naples, Florence and especially small towns near the French border.
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Elois..."This is inticing thugs to acts of violence IMO. "
I agree, I also have to ask...Why were men allowed to use women for centuries for objects of their sexual satisfaction? Did it intice the mistreatment and disprespect for women throughout the ages? The rape of Persephone, the enslaved Iusta, Sam and Dale Henry obsessing over Agnes, Ely turning to cult worship away from his wife Sophie, Elgin flaunting his flings with undergrads and students. All examples of the mistreatment and disprespect for women.
Eloise....."That is just one of the things that bother me about Sophie. She seems to think Oh! well what can you do, Elgin is a bit of a playboy, so what! Who is she kidding here?"
I can't quite wrap myself around Sophie what so ever. Nothing is logical about her. Its as though the narrator shares Sophie's instincts with us, but then does not allow her to act upon them. She lacks good judgement. She's like the yen and yang. As for Agnes, she portrays the sterotyped daughter of a Baptist minister, helpless and beautiful. Your typical Southern Belle.
I'm afraid I am a bit too modern for these characters in this book.
Ciao for now.............
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But we're also getting Sophie's thoughts. I am quite intrigued by this character, by all of them in fact.
THIS particularly from the bella's Ovid material made me sit up:
3. Transitional links: Ovid continually surprises us, as we never know where he's going next. He changes strategies using several techniques:
o He follows the same character through different adventures (Perseus, Hercules).
o He tells a story within a story: to put Argus to sleep, Mercury tells another story, becoming an internal narrator within Ovid's story.
o He "slides" from the story of one character to that of a relative or friend (Epaphus and Phaethon, end of book 1)
These different types of links provide only a superficial continuity to the poem. A better way of viewing the artistic unity of the Metamorphoses considers Ovid's use of "theme with variations."
Actually isn't that what's happening here? Is it almost a description of what's here?
We...what is an "internal narrator?"
Is it somebody who articulates your inmost thoughts? I am not sure about everybody here but my own inmost thoughts are not what you'd call noble all the time? :) Nor particularly...uplifting.
What IS the connection in this book TO Ovid's Metamorphoses? OR the Pythagorean theory? Those of you capable of understanding the math or the mythological connection, PLEASE when you see it, bring it up.
I agree there are a lot of ways we can go with this one. And a lot of ways it's going to go, with us or without us. hahahaa
But on the surface we've got a plot, we've got characters, (which one is the strongest so far?) we've got a trip to a dig (and a parallel recreated Villa Della Notte on Capri) to stay in, that alone would be a super book, but then we've got this Pythagoras and his theories. And a cult about " tetraktys." I can't even SPELL that word!
So we have a LOT of mysterious elements here to sort of add to the story.
And NOW we MAY have numerology! I wouldn't have seen this, because I know nothing about it. Would those of you who do understand these disparate elements keep chiming in as we go, because I do think that somehow all this IS necessary, the mythology and the Pythagorean theory, unlike other books.
I loved Andrea's the whole book is a metamorphosis! We need to watch and see if that proves true. It's certainly shape shifting.
Some new questions in the heading in blue but I'm interested for myself this morning to see how many conflicts there are in the first 112 pages. Keep in mind that normally a book discussion would not cover only the first quarter, it's a tribute TO the book that we can even do that, some of them don't work that way.
Here's one for you (you are doing SUCH a super job addressing each poster, Andrea and I appreciate it, SO much), what is in your own opinion the main conflict in these first 112 pages?
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QUESTION FOR CAROL
Did you write the first section of this book first or did you add to it after you had finished to tie up the ends? I don't think you've missed a thread not mentioned in the first 112 pages. I am interested in the process.
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HI Ginny! Wow! It's enough to say that, what a lot to talk about in the book.
Carol, I am in awe of all that you have written; your knowledge of Greek legends, etc. Amazing to be able to put it all together in a story wherein a mystery is developed. In the first 112 pages we don't have the mystery defined yet, but enough of characterization that we know something will break apart soon.
I smiled at several references. "No wonder I couldn't breathe in here; those nuns probably thought air was a worldly luxury."
On a group tour in Rome we stayed at a former nun's convent and our cells were as small as you have described in the book and it was not air conditioned either. However our building was not on a busy street and we had a small balcony outside that overlooked roofs and buildings and was helpful in drying a bit of laundry from time to time.
I smiled again at your reference to Texas: "I'm not an American, I'm a Texas, and I know from heat."
I'm having a visit for a couple of weeks or more with my sister from Maine and I may not be posting much; however, I did circle one reference to the Romans salting the soil of Carthage. I looked that one up and found this:
"It is rumored that after the fall of Carthage, the Romans sowed salt into the soil in order to ensure that nothing would ever grow there again. However this detail is first mentioned by 20th-century historians and is not contained in any primary, contemporaneous sources.[1] Although it would have been feasible for the Romans to destroy the fertility of the soil in this manner, such an action would furthermore have hindered Rome's subsequent growth and development, which relied heavily on grain imported from North Africa. Indeed, the seizure of Carthage's grain fields for Rome's own use has been put forth as the primary reason Rome destroyed Carthage in the first place. Not only that, but salt was a highly prized commodity in the Ancient World, and it was unlikely that the Romans would have used it in such a wastefully destructive manner." (Wikipedia)
Interesting, isn't it? Who really knows.
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Count me in, folks. I have the book on my Kindle and need some help with exactly how far we are to read this week, in terms of chapters. Page numbers don't help when you have the Kindle edition. I'm currently on Chapter 7, but I have no idea where that is in terms of pages. HELP!! ::)
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You are right, Deems. We should put Chapters in the heading instead of pages. People with the book may have different editions. My book ends Chapter 9 on page 112.
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Ella, great point on ancient Carthage and the Romans.
I found this on the subject (not the salt tho):
...when they ended in 146 BC Carthage was utterly destroyed. Rome decreed that no house should be built no crop planted, but the site was colonized by Julius Caesar and Augustus and the colony became the capital of the enlarged province of Africa. By the second century
AC Carthage had become the largest city in the west after Rome. (Oxford Companion to Classical Literature)
so apparently it was not left to devastation after all.
DEEMS! Welcome, Professor. I thought of you the very second I wrote THEME, I could hear you screaming in the background, "THEME? THEME? In the first 112 pages, Ginny?"
You must have ESP! :)
For our Kindle users, the first 112 pages go thru Chapter 9. Whoops Marcie and I were posting together, I think that's a super idea on the chapters, Marcie, we'll fix that now!
Welcome, Deems, how was President Obama's graduation address?
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why NIGHT villa? because it is a pleasure palace where activitiies take place which are best hiden by the darkness of night. I don't think every roman household is set up for this. The painings, especialy the half hidden one on the partially exposed wall suggest that to me. The artist himself seems to be at first a saytre.
agnus is beautiful and smart and naive but doesn't ring true to me. She is too anxious to please, over does it. a ministers daughter isn't enough to explain her. . . our narrater is also, but nothing like her personally.
The shooting and physical suffering of sophie seems to be gratuitous, a theme for this writer, although I may be getting ahead of myself again. butI see it in her other books as well. She dwells on it to excess without its necessity in advancing the plot or explaining the character.
Her use of place and description, however, is beautiful, poetic, does more than set a scene but draws us in emotionally and keeps us there.
Claire
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The shooting intrigues me, Claire, I have to admit. This may be one of those questions we need to keep looking at but you have the better position of having read many of Carol's books. I think there is a general rush on her books now, I've seen lots of comments, over the site, like I must get more of her books. Several of you have read lots of them. She's actually written TWO since this one, I don't know how she does it. I think it might be fun to ask about her schedule, I was really impressed when Wally Lamb told us his: it's WORK!
Somehow I think of writing a book (notice I have not written one!) as just somehow a wonderful flowing experience like Dickens and A Christmas Carol, but apparently according to Stephen King, it's NOT! I loved his book which Carol referenced On Writing where he says anybody, any person, who sits down to a computer and writes for 5 hours a day can write a book. I think he's too modest about his own talent.
I also agree with this Her use of place and description, however, is beautiful, poetic, does more than set a scene but draws us in emotionally and keeps us there.
I definitely agree. What are some of the beautiful uses of place and description you all found? I got carried away with several of them, myself.
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I too have met the professors who sleep with (or tries to) his students. To me it is a clear abuse of power. Young students, perhaps away from home for the first time are looking for someone to look up to. Often they are meeting exciting new ideas for the first time, and they transfer the excitement of the message to the messanger. Even teaching in fat middle age, I would get guys hanging around my office with big eyes. To take advantage of that is criminal, IMO. Even though these students are technically adults, they are very young. But rarely is anything done about it. Everyone knows, and shrugs it off, as Sofie does, even though it's against University rules.
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Obama's speech was good and well received, Ginny. He seems to tailor each one to the audience. I also heard the one he gave out west (memory failure on the school, but it was on the internet--anyway the one that didn't give him an honorary doctorate because his life achievements were still ahead of him) and they were completely different.
Marcie--Thank you thank you. Now I know how far to go! Thank you too, Ginny.
An internal narrator takes over and tells another story in a story already being told. Think of a play within a play and you have the idea.
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Themes so far--
1. death (and the possibility of rebirth?)-- the shootings
2. being buried alive
3. suffocation--Sophie's lungs, the nuns cells
4. a descent into the underworld (see one above)
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another thought about time as well as place.
I have to keep my personal judgements out of the way.
i.e. for example slaves as objects to be bought and sold and considering themselves as such.Business practices based on their value
My old art history teacher considered OVID to be an unreliable source. He, Dr. Wight, was oriented toward the Greeks where each character had some relationship to human emotional and characteristics. i.e. Zeus, a playboy or as we thought of him always f))king or fighting and his wife HERA suspicious and paranoid as she could likely have been under the curcumstances .
My pet character was ephestus. the god of creation who gave hummans the right to think and question. did I get that right? it's been a while.
and I did a term paper on IO who became a cow when Hera who was checking ;up on her errant husband arrived. Zeus had been approaching her in her natural form, a beautiful wood nymph . . . reminds me of Agnus here. by the way such an ugly name for a beautiful but asexual woman. that must mean something too.
Dr. wight considered Ovid to be vulgar. So keeping my own personal judgements out of the way is important.
And Ely, obsessed with numbers, drawn into a cult where he could not talk for five years, when his prime attribute for Sophie was in sharing ideas. The triangular dot patterns for pythagorus reminding me of a class in drafting where it was mentioned as a pythagorus triangel and RIGHT triangles, confused me because it showed an isoceles triangle with even angles. So maybe I don't remember all that very well. it was some sixty years ago. for this aging mind.
The sexual play was common to the Rome urban scene, but I wonder it it was so extensive in the arts which were for entertaiment . . . some thing like our soap operas on TV. And they didn't value the life force the way we do so violence was also entertaining. We mirror it with our sports. In Los Angeles the COLESIUM was used for sports as was the one in Rome. My personal view of contact sports is that they are a substitute for actual violence, still so much a part of the human psyche.
Claire
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Claire--I noticed Agnes's name too and thought it an odd one for such a beautiful girl. Perhaps a relationship to agnus--lamb? She is an innocent lamb in this world of danger. Don't get me going on names. I always notice them. One more--Sophie from sophia--wisdom?
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I just saw the notice about this book yesterday and just got my pw reminder. I don't have the book yet but it seems there are golden nuggets of thought all through these 6 pages so will read the posts and pay quiet attention until I have the book in hand. Can't wait to actually hold the book!!
Aliki (a frequent and repeating Latin student of Ginny's)
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HO! Deems is doing THEMES? I don't believe it and before she reconsiders, I'm putting them smack in the heading! What else? Drowning! I'll put that in too, what do the rest of you think?
Interesting that the President does different speeches, good for him. Thank you! The benefit of an articulate speaker. Who IS it, I can't remember, who had the super speech but he gave it everywhere, it ended something about "get him hairy hand?" It's been a long time, too, Claire.
Joan K, I never quite thought of it that way, thank you for that. Did you say you were interested in cults? Tell us more?
Claire, this is super: And Ely, obsessed with numbers, drawn into a cult where he could not talk for five years, when his prime attribute for Sophie was in sharing ideas.
Oh HO, good for you! I missed that one, there's another contrast.
Aliki (Allie Mae) welcome! You'll love this one!
On the subject of erotica in ancient art, I will defer to Carol Who Brought it Up! hahahaa I do want to know where some of those are, the new ACL Newsletter just came and THERE is Leda and the Swan, I had never seen it (and am not sure I want to now).:)
I do have an old joke tho, from about 50 years ago. One of my major professors told this one, is it true: he swore it was. An Italian farmer found a sunken room when he was digging a bull pit. It was covered with all manner of art on the walls. I've forgotten how my professor happened to be there, he was on a sabbatical or something, but everybody was hysterically excited, phone calls were made, and they all descended on the farm the next morning, only to find the walls were covered in white paint (white wash and lime) only. When asked what had happened, the farmer said he wasn't going to have those "dirty pictures" on his property :) hahahaaa
He swore it was true. hahaha I THINK I have heard another version but he swore this was true.
Ok Deems. HOW might this be done?
An internal narrator takes over and tells another story in a story already being told. Think of a play within a play and you have the idea
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An inner voice or? Are we seeing that in this book do you think? Is the internal narrator the thought processes of the person?
Can you give an example of a work (play within a play?) surely not...MacBeth or Hamlet or whatnot?
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and Carol might correct me but we spoke about Latin "names" and their true meanings in a couple of her other books. Carol, who taught Latin, allowed her students to chose whatever name they wanted for themselves.
I don't know why I didn't have that in my transcript of our interview but I do remember her telling us that, Deems. Names are important here and so are their meanings. By-the-by- I am delighted to see you surfacing here in the Night Villa, my favorite Professor. ;D
Another question that I asked Carol was about drowning, a theme that is prevelant in her other novels. Carol admitted to having claustrophobia and fearful of not being able to breath. Her statement was that she would NEVER do what her brave heroines do.
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Hiya, Andy! Good to be here.
Ginny--the answer is in what you wrote above-- "He tells a story within a story: to put Argus to sleep, Mercury tells another story, becoming an internal narrator within Ovid's story."
Ovid is telling the story of Argus who apparently can't sleep. Then Mercury tells a story to put Argus to sleep. Mercury is the internal narrator.
Drowning is another theme. Since we have so many of them, perhaps we should call them memes.
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HO!! I sure am glad you showed up, I thought for a minute Eloise was going to have to translate meme!
But never fear I looked it up at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/meme
AND I found two completely indecipherable passages in English, so take that!
meme
/meem/ n. [coined by analogy with `gene', by Richard Dawkins] An idea considered as a replicator, esp. with the connotation that memes parasitize people into propagating them much as viruses do. Used esp. in the phrase `meme complex' denoting a group of mutually supporting memes that form an organized belief system, such as a religion. This lexicon is an (epidemiological) vector of the `hacker subculture' meme complex; each entry might be considered a meme. However, `meme' is often misused to mean `meme complex'. Use of the term connotes acceptance of the idea that in humans (and presumably other tool- and language-using sophonts) cultural evolution by selection of adaptive ideas has superseded biological evolution by selection of hereditary traits. Hackers find this idea congenial for tolerably obvious reasons.
This is the best one:
meme philosophy
/meem/ [By analogy with "gene"] Richard Dawkins's term for an idea considered as a replicator, especially with the connotation that memes parasitise people into propagating them much as viruses do.
Memes can be considered the unit of cultural evolution. Ideas can evolve in a way analogous to biological evolution. Some ideas survive better than others; ideas can mutate through, for example, misunderstandings; and two ideas can recombine to produce a new idea involving elements of each parent idea.
The term is used especially in the phrase "meme complex" denoting a group of mutually supporting memes that form an organised belief system, such as a religion. However, "meme" is often misused to mean "meme complex".
Use of the term connotes acceptance of the idea that in humans (and presumably other tool- and language-using sophonts) cultural evolution by selection of adaptive ideas has become more important than biological evolution by selection of hereditary traits. Hackers find this idea congenial for tolerably obvious reasons.
See also memetic algorithm.
[The Jargon File]
(1996-08-11)
HEY!! now we know. Am I the only one seeing algorithm in there? OH I do believe I see "mutate" in there, too.
Right, language using sophonts, I agree totally. (Twilight Zone music here, doo de dooo dooo). hahahaa
So translate that? Do you mean that when Mercury another person or mythical charater, takes over and tells a story which Ovid was previously telling, it becomes...ah...it's Internal because it's another narrator!
WhOOP! Then we do have one coming, she says not to want to spoil...or maybe two? HO@ Good one bella for the Ovid bit and Deems.
Jury is still out on the meme since one cannot begin to figure out what they are saying above.
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OK, I'm so confused between Deems and Ginny, I think I'll go to sleep.
aliki- a big hearty welcome to you. I too love to hold a book in hand but must admit my fascination with all of these new fangled gadgets, like the Kindle. We will be here trying to solve this mystery when your book arrives.
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Since we have so many of them, perhaps we should call them memes
Même chose in French is same thing. Même couleur, same color.
My brain is suffering from exhaustion. I will take a break visiting my sister for a couple of days and we will go to a library for a rest. :)
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Ginny--Yes, exactly. What you said,--"So translate that? Do you mean that when Mercury another person or mythical charater, takes over and tells a story which Ovid was previously telling, it becomes...ah...it's Internal because it's another narrator!"
I was just playing with meme. Not to worry. I do, however, like those definitions. Wonder if meme has made it into the OED yet.
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ginny...."And NOW we MAY have numerology! I wouldn't have seen this, because I know nothing about it. Would those of you who do understand these disparate elements keep chiming in as we go, because I do think that somehow all this IS necessary, the mythology and the Pythagorean theory, unlike other books. "[/i]
I did some research this afternoon and found this. I will give you the short version and feel free to go to the site and read it through.
As much as I can understand, Plato in his volume Timaeus, comes to a conclusion through his theory that .......The world soul, from which the human soul is eventually derived, is constructed by a series of odd and even integers beginning with 2 and 3, the first even and odd numbers, and proceeding through their square (4 and 9) and cubes (8 and 27). (Recall that 1 does not count as a number, since in Greek the notion of number arithmos, implies plurality.)
It goes on to explain the entire theory and then concludes....This mathematical construction of the cosmic soul and body in the Timaeus represents a genuinely Pythagorean blend of number, theory, geometry, and musical harmony. Astronomy, the fourth member of the Pythagorean quadrivium, is also included, since the world soul is cut into two strips corresponding to the celestial equator and ecliptic (Timaeus 36b). But Plato has reworked these Pythagorean elements (borrowed from Philolaus and Archytas) into a new world picture that is at once highly symbolic and mathematically precise. Numerical ratios, geometric progressions, and regular solids represent the cosmic order as a systematic structure of rational harmony. Furthermore, by portraying the mathematical order of nature as the work of a creator god, Plato becomes the precedent for modern mathematical theists like Kepler and Newton, who will claim that "God geometrizes," that geometry is the instrument by which God creates the world. The Timaeus is the single most important text for the future of the Pythagorean tradition.
Also.....The first principle of all things is the monad. Out of the monad arises the indefinite dyad as matter for the monad which is cause. Out of the monad and indefinite dyad come the numbers, out of the numbers come the points, out of these the lines, from which (are formed) the plane figures; from the plane figures (are formed) the solid figures, from these the sensible bodies, whose elements are four: fire, water, earth, air....Out of the transformation of the elements comes to be an animate cosmos, intelligent, spherical, surrounding the earth as its center. The earth in turn is spherical and inhabited all around. There are people at the Antipodes (Literally "with their feet opposite our") and what is down for us is up for them. (D. L. VIII.25 = DK 58B.1a)
Okay believe it or not I found all of the above by going to google and typing in. "many are the narthex bearers but few the Bacchoi.
As for what I did find pertaining to the quote above..."The well known saying that seems to indicate that "to be taken by the god" is an event that will happen in an unforeseeable way, and probably only to a few special individuals. There are mediumistic gifts that are beyond the reach of many. Even the most common drug often identified with Dionysos, wine, is not sufficient to induce true bakcheia: anyone can get drunk, but not all are bakchoi."
The Cardinal Doctrine of Orphism. The whole gist of the matter may thus be summed up. Orpheus took an ancient superstition deep-rooted in the savage ritual of Dionysos, and lent to it a new spiritual significance. The old superstition and the new faith are both embodied in the little Orphic text that stands at the head of this chapter: "Many are the wand-bearers, few are the Bocchoi" Can we be sure that this is really an Orphic text or was it merely a current proverb of any and every religion and morality? Plato says: "Those who instituted rites of initiation for us said of old in a parable that the man who came to Hades uninitiated lay in mud, but that those who had been purified and initiated and then came thither dwell with the gods. For those who are concerned with these rites say, They that bear the wand are many, the Bacchoi are few."
You can read more at the site I have provided.
http://books.google.com/books?id=5vi10r5k5eEC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA53&ots=0Jg2jf33E8&dq=many+are+the+narthex+bearers,+but+few+the+bacchoi&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html
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Ginny, I notice that the definition of meme" in the quote comes from something called the "Jargon File". Hot Diggity now we don't have to worry our heads too much about it since "Jargon", as far as I know, is a bunch of words intended to confound and confuse us. Suceeds, doesn't it?
I had read this far previously just for the pure pleasure of it. I like Carol Goodman's writing so much and have enjoyed 3 other of her books. She is great on setting up the atmosphere and putting you right smack into the places she describes.
Now I have to go back over it for the "close reading". There have been so many wonderful and informative posts so far!! I'm loving it!
You all aren't leaving me anything much to look up!
I find the mathematical bit so fascinating - had forgotten how much I liked geometry back in the olden days so satisfactory to come up with Q.E.D.
Something is going wrong with my keyboard I think I must have hit a wrong key for the wrong thing and I have to keep going back to fix spacing and words it wants to delete where I don't want to delete Woe is me!
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JoanR......[/color]"Something is going wrong with my keyboard I think I must have hit a wrong key for the wrong thing and I have to keep going back to fix spacing and words it wants to delete where I don't want to delete Woe is me!"
I had the same problem last night and I thought it was a weak mouse battery since its wireless. I just bought a new computer with Vista and thought it was the program. So now I am wondering if its a glitch with this site.
Anyone else have these problems?????
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Okay, Ginny sent me some of the questions you have posted and I thought the easiest thing to do would be to answer them all together here. If I've missed any questions, Ginny, just send me a note with the post number and I'll go answer it (if I can!).
1. Many of us here have encountered some "Elgins" in our forays into Academia. Did you base him on any one person or an amalgam of several people? (or can't you answer that one?) Have you encountered an Elgin along the way? Are they always in Classics or is it more widespread? Hahaha
I think I’d better take the fifth on that one. Really, Elgin isn’t based on anyone in particular.
2. Are you the first person to make a cult of Tetratkys or is there one somewhere?
I’m not sure. I don’t know of any “cult” called Tetraktys, but I do know that a number of new age groups (many completely benign) revere Pythagoras. In fact, the inspiration for using Pythagoras in the book came from my husband Lee’s interest in him and the series of sonnets that Lee has written about Pythagoras (PYTHAGORAS IN LOVE by Lee Slonimsky, might as well get in that plug!).
3. "flat on the stone floor so that I can see the tiles better." Carol what is this type of expression called? I know you teach writing, it's driving me crazy. It's very well done, what IS it? I looked up a bunch of literary definitions, is it synaesthesia? Or irony? Or what literary technique is it called? Obviously I don't have a clue, but I really love whatever it is. (ginny)
I’m not sure either! Sorry!
4. I was blown away with the use of imagery in these first 112 pages. The contrast between black and white is stark. I first noticed it when Sophie was looking for Ely and "the wind picked up the fluffy white spores from the cottonwood trees."
The physician referred to xray by pointing to the ghostly white shape lurking beneath her rib cage.
What about M"Lou's eyes looking black in the picture with Sophie's mother?
or... mothers ego looked black!
When she entered Ely's room she found it completely black ... one window covered with a black out shade, edges sealed with black electricial tape. A reference to a cave, aha! Is that what you are going for with this contrast black/white?
It took her 5 coats of white latex enamel paint to cover the walls.
Even the brightly colored modern paperbacks are all arrayed like sentinels against the dark. (I loved that image.)
pg. 45 you mention the black/white image beginning with the cool white depths of the fridge. There are references to dark bruises under Ely's eyes and sunlight, overhead lights (white) Agnes's UT sweatshirt accentuates her pallor and the dark rings under her eyes.
Sophie sees Ely's writing as a letter glowing starkly white against the black and then each letters acquires a halo that flames red in the darkness. Oh by the way, Carol, red is another bloody colored used often in this theme.
When Sophie first meets Gus, the cat, she notes the maelstrom of black and white fur, with a white triangle over his nose. On that same visit, Charles describes Ely's emptiness as being like a black hole, dragging everybody into it.
The black crow with the melee of black feathers is mentioned. "They're pyschopomps- messengers sent to lead the should into the underworld. "
Is that what the black is all about?
In Naples, Sophie notes the walls of the Hotel Convento are pearly white and when she descends into delirium she lays on white tiles.
Is this a foreshadowing, I wonder of the house of Night in the underworld that Hesiod wrote of, ""ghastly clouds shroud it in darkness."
These many inferences to dark vs. light became a game for me. Good vs. evil? (Andrea (ALF))
I was conscious of contrasting light and dark in many of the instances you’ve cited, but I think some of them were subconscious. Yes, I guess, good and evil would be one way of looking at it—or knowledge and mystery, what we can see versus what we can’t.
5. I know you probably can not answer this question right now, but I must ask, how on earth is Sophie capable of mowing her lawn the first day out of the hospital, then go traveling, climbing steep hills, riding stuffy trolleys, trekking through tunnels etc. so soon after a major injury to her lung? In all reality it is not possible, so my next question is this.....
Is Sophie a human character or is she a figment of a story or dream? (bellamarie)
Sophie’s not supernatural, she’s just a TEXAN! Remember, though, she’s been in the hospital a couple of weeks so it’s not like she’s mowing right after surgery. I do appreciate your skepticism, though. I was familiar with this kind of operation because my mother had had part of her lung removed (not because of a gunshot, thankfully!) and she certainly wasn’t doing any lawn mowing. But I did talk to my pulmonologist and asked if a young woman who had this operation could resume normal activities, and his answer was yes. Of course, she is doing too much and there will be consequences to pay …
6 Rebirth and transfiguration abounds. Carol do you believe in Reincarnation, I wonder?(Andrea)
I like the IDEA of reincarnation and I like playing with it in fiction because it makes an interesting story. Just think of the story arc you can have with multiple lives!
7. Did you write the first section of this book first or did you add to it after you had finished to tie up the ends? I don't think you've missed a thread not mentioned in the first 112 pages. I am interested in the process. (ginny)
I think I wrote this pretty much beginning to end, but then I always do several revisions and get a chance to tidy up those loose ends (and I have an editor who insists that I do). Thank you, though. You’re probably being too generous. There are probably a few danglers.
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Carol, thank you so much for taking the time to answer our questions. Nice to know Sophie is not a supernatural, and yes, I can believe there will be consequences to her rash judgements to over do. I'm not entirely sure you answered my question completely, but this will do for now.
So, in reading Carol's answers, I have to ask........are we reading too much into the book? I promised myself I would not get carried away and repeat that mistake again, but lo and behold, look who spent the entire afternoon searching and posting Plato's theory on numerology and the creation of body and soul. lolol
I do feel the cult Ely joined has some significance to the story linked with the scrolls in Italy, and the Pythagorean theory, since they deal with numbers, triangles and initiations.
Something else I found interesting in my digs today, was that when initiated, they are given intoxicants that cause delusions. Could Sophie be going through an initiation? When she took a drink from the tour guide at the villa was it just water?
Oh shucks, how could I not delve into searching for these clues, its in my nature as a writer and a curious George to go beyond the surface. I have my hands on "The Seduction of Water" and think I will begin reading it along with this book, since I don't want to read ahead, but am interested in more of Carol's work.
Ciao for now...........
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One more theme before I go to bed--mother and daughter
Sophie and her mother (drowned?)
Demeter and Persephone
Sophie and Agnes
Iusta and her mother (name forgotten at the moment)
Night
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Bellamarie, I do the same thing. When I find something interesting, whether it is ultimately important or not, I dig into it. Right now, I am reading chapters of my History of Mathematics pertaining to early Egyptian, Greek and Mesopotamian geometry.
Seduction of Water is wonderful IMO. It had a "flow" to it that just carried me along. The selkie tale seemed a little strange to me, but it became clearer as I read. I had never heard of a selkie before. Then, a week after I finished the book, I came across a movie based on a selkie tale. I probably would not have paid any attention to it if I hadn't read Carol's book.
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Frybaby...Thanks, for the insight of Seduction of Water, I have never heard of a selkie before either. I think I was a little tired when I picked the book up tonight, and was getting a little disinterested in it. I'm glad I read your post, I will stick with it.
Sleep tight!
Ciao for now.............
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Bellamarie -- my Vista does the same -- might try the Insert Key to see if somehow it is on.
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Thanks, Kidsal - that was my problem!
Most tales involving selkies are rather sad. There's the one about a fisherman who married a selkie, hid her sealskin away so that she couldn't return to the sea. She bore him a child but would walk sadly along the shore looking out at the water. She found the sealskin after a few years, donned it and disappeared into the waves. People would see a seal out in the water watching the child playing on the beach. The last line said something like " the seal's salty tears ran into the salty sea." Oh, dear!!! I remember a few others too - one about a male selkie. Another time.
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Glad to see Carols answers. I was beginning to give it up, but she brought me down to what and why she was writing.
We get entangled in side thoughts here. But that is always the choice in book discussions..
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/topicsscript2.jpg)
(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week 1: (pp-112)
1. Sisyphus! (http://seniornet.org/gallery/latin/Graphics/sisyphus.gif) Sillybos! Persephone! Demeter! Hades! Dionysus! Parthenope! Sirens! Minerva Tyrrhena! Cybele! Harpy! And many more! The first 112 pages are a rich riot of classical allusion. What reference in the first 112 pages would you like to know more about? Choose one which interested you and bring an explanation of it here so we can all learn.
2. "Many are the narthex bearers but few the Bacchoi." (page 76 ) What does this mean? Why is it repeated?
3. What effect does the First Person Narration of the protagonist Sophie and her point of view have on the reader? Do you think this narrator so far is reliable? Why or why not?
4. Both Sophie and Agnes seem to feel guilty about things or overly responsible for events. Why?
5. Do you understand the tetraktys? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/tetractys.jpg) What do 3, 4 and 5 have to do with the triangle of 10 dots (page 29)? Does anyone know anything about Pythagoras or Pythagorean theory? What does the word tetraktys itself mean?
6. What are the some of the main conflicts in this first section?
7. Do you have any personal knowledge or do you know of anybody who has been involved with a modern cult? What do you think the appeal of the modern cult is?
8. Why did Sophie not want to go to Capri? Why did she go? Given her rough start, what would you say the prospects are for a successful time?
9. How many contrasts are there in this section and how are they variously presented? What is their effect? Were there any instances of imagery you particularly liked?
10. We have a lot going on here in this carefully crafted first section: how many parallels so far can you identify? (let's keep a list)
11. What foreshadowing did you notice in these first 112 pages? Was the shooting a surprise to you? Do you think the phone call was from Ely? What if she had picked it up on the 2nd ring?
12. What one thing did you most like about the first 112 pages?
13. What are some of the emerging themes of this first section?[/b]
-------------1. death (and the possibility of rebirth?)-- the shootings (Deems)
-------------2. being buried alive (Deems)
-------------3. suffocation--Sophie's lungs, the nuns cells (Deems)
-------------4. a descent into the underworld (Deems)
-------------5. drowning (ginny)
-------------6.Sophie and her mother (drowned?) (Deems)
-------------7. Demeter and Persephone (mother and daughter)(Deems)
-------------8. Sophie and Agnes (Deems)
-------------9. Iusta and her mother Vitalis (Deems)
------------10. male treatment of women (bellamarie)
15. Have you learned something you did not know previously in the first 112 pages? If so what?
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/hr_blue.gif)
Schedule
Chapters 1-9 for June 1 - 7
Chapters 10-16 for June 8 - 14
Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22
Chapters 25-End for June 23 - 30
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
|
In the first week of June, Week I we will not talk about anything other than what is contained in the first 112 pages. If your question may pertain to what comes later on, we'll ask you to hold that particular one for the end, so as not to spoil it for the rest.
Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrirollsonshelfbr.jpg)
Roman books as papyrus rolls on shelves with the sillybos on the end.
A lost Roman funerary relief from Neumagen, Germany.
Thanks to Dr. Sider for locating this for us.
New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!
Kidsal....Thank you, I will check out the insert key, once I locate it. lolol I taught computers at a K-8 private school for 15 yrs on Apple/Macs, and then I have had a Compaq/HP desktop for 10 yrs in my home. I decided to treat myself to a laptop HP a few weeks ago, and I just can not get used to this Vista. I think my patience is wearing then. lol It seems to be working okay now so maybe I accidentally hit the insert key and didn't know it. lolol
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That is the beauty of sharing ideas, Steph, while reading. One person will take an interest in one thought where as another may have missed that point completely.
Like Joan and Bellamarie, I like a book that has a great plot to follow and that allows my interest to become piqued, encouraging questions and the NEED to know, so-- I look for references to read and learn.
I don't believe that in any book discussion we "read too much into it." If we did not indulge ourselves how would we come up with these brilliant ::) questions for our beautiful author or how would Deems be able to find these parallels like :
Sophie and her mother (drowned?)
Demeter and Persephone
Sophie and Agnes
Iusta and her mother
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THANK YOU SO MUCH CAROL FOR YOUR HONEST AND INTRIGUING ANSWERS.
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I think a theme I see, as I mentioned before, is disrespect and mistreatment of women by men. Also, you can not overlook, love hurts. I keep feeling for lack of a better word, polar opposites. It seems like what should be logical, is illogical, like I said before...yen and yang. It's a little early and my brain has not awakened, though my eyes have, so I will get back later once I can sort these thoughts out.
Alf I agree, if we don't indulge ourselves we would never come up with such fun ideas and questions. I love that Carol is here to sort them out for us and direct us if we go too far off the path. I personally learn more than I would imagine, going on digs. lolol
Ciao for now..............
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What a joy to get up and see Carol's answers which I loved, thank you so much, Carol! Could not wait to get here and see if she had come in and boy had she! :)
Sophie’s not supernatural, she’s just a TEXAN!
What does this mean? I love it, but I don't know anything about Texans, and hoo, Sophie DID cut the grass!! Who knew?
I got up thinking about Sophie. How old do you all think she is? I got up remarking on how much injury she's sustained in the first quarter of the book: shooting victim, loss of first baby, loss of husband. That's a heck of a lot of trauma for one person to carry around, and SHE'S the one who feels responsible. Her mother drowned, we need to go back and reread that one, she's really had a time. And I think psychologists say that the support of the husband is very important in a miscarriage, and she had none. She's had a time. She must be pretty tough.
How do you see Sophie? Tough? Not? What has Texan to do with it? (Do you know anybody in Texas?) Let's talk about Sophie!
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OH and Carol thank you for the "plug" for your husband by Lee Slonimsky's Pythagoras in Love! I knew he had written the poems in your book, but knew nothing else.
I googled it and you can look in the book's index and the first poem I saw was Three- Four- Five! Now who could resist that one?
So I read that and was absolutely blown away! I guess I can't post it here, copyright and all, but WOW! Have ordered it to keep. Wow. Thank you!
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Gosh we're mid week already!! Stephanie, what would YOU like to talk about concerning this book before we have to move on to the next section?
Before the week ends, I hope that everybody will come in and mention what stood out for them the most in this first section, or anything they would like to talk about.
Thank you for those themes, Deems and bellmere. I am intrigued by the men/ women thing as I don't see it, but it could be another parallel!
Joan, "Jargon?" hahaha Oh heck, does that mean I have to give up "language-using sophonts?" hahahaaa I have to ask: what IS a selkie?
haha Deems, it was the definition itself I wanted translated. :) I love that memes thing, thank you Eloise for that translation also.
You know, people are SO different, that's one thing I like about these book DISCUSSIONS. Some people see things like sophonts and are intimidated, or they see things like Bacchoi and just read on, thinking it will all be explained later. This book is FULL of that type of thing. I've never been one to ignore the elephant in the living room, to me, it's here for a reason. It may or may not be explained at the end.
I'm the same way, I see Pythagoras and think, oh lemme see if I can glide by on that one, since Math to me is total mystery and anathema.
Others see Sirens and Bacchoi and think OH BOY I get to learn something new?
Every reader has a personal relationship with the book, nothing can remove that. But sitting in a circle and talking about the book, different people will see different things, as Eloise would say vive la difference! (or I hope that's right) We all have the same floor here, and we need to be open to everybody's ideas. If the subject of the day does not appeal, give us one that does, so we can talk about it. You can consult the Reader's Guide questions in the back of the book if you like and answer one of those.
That said, those of you we have not heard from, what do YOU want to say about the first 112 pages?
Where is Norma who said this book was an epiphany for her?
One theme (Deems correct me?) I see is mysteries. Lots of mysteries already, old and new. The Mystery Religions are really mysteries, nobody really knows about them, but there are a million variations, in each myth. How about the classical references or mythology? Are they themes? I am a little weak on the word THEME.
Pyghagoras to me is a mystery. So it's fine with me to have lots of exciting unknowns and pathways to veer off on, but every voice (except Carol's of course) is equal here, please do express YOURSELVES.
If you don't like what's in the heading, do your own thing. Let us know what you are thinking!
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I am interested in Ely's chanting of those fragments from a Pythagorean text called the Golden Verses.
Practicioners of Pythagoreanism were supposed to ask themselves these 3 questions every night.
1. Where did I go wrong today?
2. What did I accomplish?
3. What obligation did I NOT perform?
So far these questions seem irrelevant to me. Do they mean dsomething that I've missed. Sophie answered them by saying she got up to #1 question, she got herself shot in answer to #2 question and I'm not sure about #3.
She wondered if these questions were a test to get past the ferryman as she felt "the whirlpool beneath her bed sucking too hard on her chest, sucking her down into Hades." (That would be her chest tube to help reinflate her lung.
Make no mistake Sophie was gravely injured. The bullet went through the back of Dale Henry's head and into two inches of the mahogany table before it entered her two ribs and punctured a lung. You can tell that Carol had consulted a pulmonologist when she wrote of this.
She awoke with reams of guilt and then "went into the arms of Morpheus" when the nurse attended to her.
Ginny, I don't think that Sophie and Ely were married. They settled in the "little house together" near the campus but that was without the nuptuals, I think.
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QUESTION FOR CAROL
Thank you, Carol, for all those answers. Those of us who don't write novels are always interested in how the mind of the writer works--at least I am. Your editor must be helpful to you what with making sure that you tie up important ends!
Q. for Carol: How much preparatory reading do you do for your novels? I imagine it varies with different books, but am curious especially about this one.
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Ginny, the Selkie is an old Irish Folktale, and according to Wikipedia also of Iceland, Scotland and the Faroe Islands. There are several versions, but basically, the seal comes ashore certain times of the year and sheds its skin to become a woman (they are mostly women, but sometimes men). If someone finds and hides the skin she cannot return to the sea but must stay on shore and do as the finder bids. Here is the link to wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selkie
Meme is apparently from the Greek mīmeîsthai: to copy, to imitate. It was coined by Richard Dawkins, a British biologist and author of a bunch of books including The Selfish Gene. Meme has to do with cultural evolution. I suppose that means, for example, how a word or phrase comes into common use, or how various fashion styles start out as new and different and eventually become common. You can read more about Dawkins at his official website: http://richarddawkins.net/
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Another theme throughout the first 112 pages which obviously will continue throughout the entire book is...past and present and how it effects the future.
Carol mentioned she was not aware of any tetrakty cults. I was looking around today and found a couple definitions for tetrakty, one ....a triangle figure consisting of ten points arranged in four rows: one, two three, and four points in each row. As a mystical symbol, it was very important to the followers of the secret worship of the Pythagoreans.
A picture of it is like a pyramid, and it also reminded me of how bowling pins are set up so if hit in the right spot, they will all fall down. As I recall, the cult Ely joined used this symbol.
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Andrea:
I don't think that Sophie and Ely were married.
I did NOT catch that! Is that what the rest of you also thought? Well anyway the loss would have been double fold, of Ely and of the baby.
I have to admit I did ask myself those three questions last night. It was hard to get past the first one hahahhaa
1. Where did I go wrong today?
2. What did I accomplish?
3. What obligation did I NOT perform?
Sins of omission and commission. I just read an interesting article on attitude. It seems that the Polyanna attitude is not what really makes a difference in the long run to an individual, but rather the one which acknowledges the mistakes, makes changes and makes it soar ultimately. I wonder if the above is the current Pythagorean theory, does anybody know?
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Frybabe, thank you for the Seklie and the meme. Looks like every culture has its myths or fables or what not.
Did you say you work nights? You're reading "chapters of History of Mathematics pertaining to early Egyptian, Greek and Mesopotamian geometry."
You are kidding! Is there anything in there that pertains to what we're reading? You mathematicians MUST help us here!
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I really liked one of bellamarie's submissions on Plato, like this one, "Plato says: 'Those who instituted rites of initiation for us said of old in a parable that the man who came to Hades uninitiated lay in mud, but that those who had been purified and initiated and then came thither dwell with the gods. For those who are concerned with these rites say, They that bear the wand are many, the Bacchoi are few.'"
She found that in looking up the quote on page 76 and others: "Many are the narthex bearers but few the Bacchoi." And then this:
"The well known saying that seems to indicate that "to be taken by the god" is an event that will happen in an unforeseeable way, and probably only to a few special individuals. There are mediumistic gifts that are beyond the reach of many. Even the most common drug often identified with Dionysos, wine, is not sufficient to induce true bakcheia: anyone can get drunk, but not all are bakchoi."
I could be wrong but that to me is more foreshadowing, there's an initiation coming for somebody, am I not reading that correctly? And it has the promise of life with the gods rather than death in the mud? The Elephant in the Living Room is quite pointed here, thank you for finding that, Bellamarie.
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Another thing I really like about this book IS the classical allusions. Older books from 70-100+ years ago were full of them, you almost had to study Latin and the classics to even get the references. You almost literally could not READ or understand the book unless you knew the allusions. Some books today continue that tradition (Umberto Eco for instance) but it's a rare thing to see it. I really like the fact that not only are they there for atmosphere, and I agree with Joan R that she is great on setting up the atmosphere and putting you right smack into the places she describes, but they also are there to give whoever wants it a chance to expand their perameters a little.
We've all read older books and authors which you need a glossary to understand, but here we can enjoy really without learning a thing (I don't see how somebody could not learn SOMETHING, even in the first 112 pages, I have) and THAT is a gift. I love that about the book. If it sends ONE person to the internet or dictionary or reference book that's a blow for the classics.
Maybe we should ask THAT question? What have you learned you did not know in the first 112 pages? Anything? Inquiring minds want to know!
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Back again to Ginny's fascination with Sophie lying on the bathroom floor. :) Could this be a foreshadowing of a survival situation or even survival game. She had to get down on the floor to breathe. This is puting my mind into a different mode than I use for everyday life, but into one I can jump into when needed. Allusions are to survival of shooting, drowning, loss of friends, lovers and family. Examining what all can we survive may lead to discovery of what is most important in life. [Hopefully this is not a reflection of travel abroad Mark Twain style].
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Back again to Ginny's fascination with Sophie lying on the bathroom floor. :) Could this be a foreshadowing of a survival situation or even survival game. She had to get down on the floor to breathe.
I like that, NormaLemke, bet you're right. There is other foreshadowing too. Page 58: "...How likely is it that someone's going to try to shoot him (Elgin) twice in one year?"
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Norma, I do like the idea of survival, I think you're right on the foreshadowing and did not realize, till you posted them, the other instances!! It looks like survival is another theme, too. I loved this: Examining what all can we survive may lead to discovery of what is most important in life
You know what? That makes me want to ask what IS important or seems important so far to Sophie? What do you all think? When you thinkk about it, she's lost a great many things which were important to her.
I'm still trying to figure out why she decided to go on the trip.
The book has so many little truisms in it, tho. In looking for the M'Lou last appearance and conversation about the trip, I found this on page 85:
No matter what Ely had ever achieved, it was not in his power to make them [his parents] happy. It was a failing I knew something about, having realized myself at age ten that I hadn't been enough to keep my mother home--or to keep her alive.
That's kind of just tucked away there but it sure has a punch, you've got another reason or parallel in Ely and Sophie's lives, and again you can see thru the narrator's eyes as a child: feeling at fault for her mother's death.
This kind of thing tends to make me feel empathetic to Sophie, (really to want to tell her no, you were a child, and had nothing to do with your mother's leaving or dying) so many children blame themselves, and so you get involved with the character despite yourself.
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Hey, Pat, and welcome! I wondered where you were! :)
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QUESTION FOR CAROL
I love the interesting dialog and the very many imaginative details that are included in the novel.
Carol, I'm wondering how you create the characters in your book. Do you imagine them in some detail as real people and then decide what they might do or say or do you create their words and actions more as they relate to events in the plot? Or...?
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Ginny, the volume I was reading is part of a set from the "Facts on File" Library. It is very general in nature, just giving an overview of important advances in mathematics. One of the points the book makes is that what we know as the Pythagora's Theorum was actually in use in Mesopotamia a thousand years before Pythagoras came along. He was well traveled and when he finally settled down, he established a rather secretive community. Like a commune, everything was shared and no one individual took credit for any mathematical discoveries. His pet theory involved positive integers, so when he discovered irrational numbers, he tried to keep it a secret(reference, The History of Mathematics: Geometry, The Language of Space and Form - John Tabak, Ph. D.) Gee, does that sound familiar - discover something, but keep it a secret because it interferes with or disproves the pet theory or project you worked hard to promote? I thought I saw somewhere that this secretive behavior of his almost got him executed.
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Note that "The Power of Myth" is back on PBS this month.
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fRYBABY-
Gee, does that sound familiar - discover something, but keep it a secret because it interferes with or disproves the pet theory or project you worked hard to promote? I thought I saw somewhere that this secretive behavior of his almost got him executed.
ahahaaaaaaaaaaaa--- Ask our former President and VP about that statement.
I will be leaving all of you for four days while you trek over to Naples and around the "sites."
Your posts are brilliant, witty, introspective and so informative. I will try to peek in while basking my 160 large on the beach. 8) Hang in there Ginny, you've got your hands full with this group of accomplished readers.
Andy
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I love the book and consider Sophie an interesting character.. Dont quite understand her mental confusion , but have never been shot and that may change how you look at things.
Sophie's relationship with her mother and aunt are interesting. She feels or seems to feel that something got left out for her. Dont know if we will learn more about them, but hope so.
I suspect Ely is going to pop up in this story later on.. Wish I didnt.. He is thus far a truly ugly person.. Totally self absorbed.
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Good mornin' everyone ~ and Steph, I agree with you ~
After several weeks of baby-helping it's difficult to wind up my brain to explore themes in
such a complex book with wonderful mythical under-stories. I hesitate to jump in with Professor Deems and others being experts on lit. et al, but here goes ...
I think the take-home from the first section is that Sophie is a complex, brilliant, and mature, but confused, guilty woman, who still blames herself for what went wrong in her life, such as her mother's death, as Ginny mentioned above. She also seems to take upon herself each failed relationship, despite the fact that her boyfriend appears to be entirely flaky.
Don't we know women who walk around under a cloud thinking they are to blame for the woes of the world? I sure do know several ... certainly, definitely not myself :D
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Ginny......"what IS important or seems important so far to Sophie?"
That's an interesting question and I really had to give it some thought. Her mother obviously was important to her even though she was abandoned by her. I do feel Ely has a significant place in her life, even though he too abandoned her. She seems extremely interested in Iusta, needing to know whether she had been freed. Sophie, does not seem to have any particular material attachments of importance, except for her thesis. I think her education and her teaching job stands out to be the center of her purpose in life at this point. She seemed genuinely interested in Agnes, but I have to ask myself is it because she sees Agnes as a young female needing protected?
on pg. 27-28 Sophie is talking about Clare , the psych major/room mate asking her if she knew what she was doing (relating to her pregnancy) She says..."Was it because my grandparents had raised me a Catholic and I thought abortion was a sin? Was it because my mother had me when she was only seventeen and if she hadn't let her parents talk her out of an abortion I wouldn't be here? Or was it because I wanted to relive my mother's story, only this time keep the baby and not let some crazy religious fanatics get ahold of it thus rewriting my own childhood crisis of abandonment?"
Then on pg. 55 she is talking about Elgin critiquing her thesis..."I'm surprised at how much this saddens me. After all, if she died in the eruption, what difference does it make if she died a free woman or slave?" "You've romanticized your subject," Elgin had commented on the first draft of my thesis, in which I argued that Vitalis and Iusta represented early feminists. "And overidentified with them." The remark had stung more than it should have. I had told Elglin about my childhood, my strict German-Catholic grandparents, who probably thought they were doing their best by me but who treated me as if I were a time bomb that at any moment might destroy all our lives just like your mother had. That had been the refrain I grew up with ---just like your mother--
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Gosh what an interesting bunch of comments, all different, all something I did not know. I think, let's do this, on our last day Sunday in this section, let's...I'm hung up on Mippy's Take Away, I wanted to ask that but since I personally have no clue as to the answer, I was afraid to.
We need to ask a "Take Away" question and what have you learned question before we leave this section.
I think that's a great "Take Away," Mippy, and I wonder about this statement of yours: She also seems to take upon herself each failed relationship, despite the fact that her boyfriend appears to be entirely flaky.
That is another thing she has in common with Agnes, perhaps, flaky boyfriends. Why IS it some people make bad matches? We're all familiar with the apparently odd matched couple.
I read once (are any of you psychologists?) that it's not like which attracts like, but rather the opposite, that people look for a person who unconsciously they can relate to because of the...what's the word, shared...wounds for a better word, that they have in common, realizing they can handle the good stuff. I wonder if that's true. If it is, it certainly explains Sophie's choice in men so far, she had a lot of trauma in common with Ely.
Kidsal said "The Power of Myth" is back on PBS this month" and this interested me, thank you Kidsal, and I went to look it up. You can actually see an hour of it free here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7315339866399210257
You will be surprised at the "myths" HE is talking about, starting with the creation story in Genesis, paralleled in American Indian lore, then in the country of India. What I watched of it did not include the ancients tho he certainly mentioned them.
I know Cathy and Suzie are taking courses in this (or in Ancient Greek and Roman Mythology), and the whole subject is quite interesting, here's one of his quotes:
...on mythology....
These bits of information from ancient times which have to do with the themes that have supported man's life and built civilizations, informed religions, over the millennia, have to do with deep inner problems, inner mysteries, inner thresholds....and if you don't know what the guide signs are along the way you have to work it out for yourselves....Myths are clues to the spiritual potentialities of the human life.
(Ok here's challenge #1 today: YOU transcribe what he's saying, as he's telling it to Bill Moyers, I dare you! hahahaa) I feel like a court reporter who will be fired after 15 minutes. hahaaa
I was not familiar with Joseph Campbell, I'm going to watch the series and see what he has to say about, if anything, the mythology we're talking about here.
One point he does make is it's not so much the seeking, man seeking the myth, as the experience that makes a myth valuable.
That seems to fit in with the Romans and their insistence almost superstition on ritual long after whatever god had been forgotten. Kind of reminds me of the Pearl Buck books, after a boy was born the parents ran about saying oh misfortune, oh awful, so whatever capricious gods might be listening might not take jealous vengeance, (like the Arachne story in ancient Greek mythology, giving us Arachnida for spiders, I love that story). Just don't say you're better than the gods. Heck how many people in history have found that out with kings? Thomas Wolsey and Hampton Court and Nicolas Fouquet and his Vaux-le-Vicomte are prime examples. I mean when you outshine Henry VIII and Louis the Sun King, you really need to put the brakes on it.
So there ancient mythology repeats itself in many cultures. I think I'd like to take a closer look at the subject in general, thank you Kidsal!
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Frybabe, (Margie) that is so interesting about Pythagoras. That's quite interesting: One of the points the book makes is that what we know as the Pythagora's Theorum was actually in use in Mesopotamia a thousand years before Pythagoras came along. And the secret mysterious society, I heard an interesting lecture once at a convention on the Persephone myth, how it predates the Greeks and is in several other cultures, some quite strange, all dealing with the seasons and rebirth.
Rebirth or the rituals associated with it I have a feeling is going to be a theme here.
It's surprising to many to learn that worship of the god Serapis, (who was made up to combine Egyptian and Greek mythology by Ptolemy I) which was popular with the Romans contained resurrection, but not in the way we think of it.
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Andrea, enjoy the beach!! We'll miss you but I know you are fomenting tons of thoughts for the discussion!
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Stephanie, two great points! You mentioned she seems to feel that something got left out for her.
What a good point, I missed that. Now that alone would be a powerful motivation, to me. That and constantly being told you're just like your mother (who drowned). How would one react to that daily? I don't think people drown on purpose, do they? Of course there's Virginia Woolf. I need to reread that bit.
And then this, the other Elephant in the Living Room: but have never been shot and that may change how you look at things.
You're right, I have not either. Has anybody here been shot? I am not sure how it would make you feel, I know my recent broken leg has brought up a LOT of strange little unworthy thoughts I did not know were there.
The SHOOTING is another Elephant in the Living Room here. I was shocked, never saw it coming but in our day it seems to be in the news daily. When you read a book tho, you (do you?) tend to imbue it with your own persona, I doubt any of us have shot anybody. Or even thought about it.
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And bellamarie brought up abandonment. I did not see that and you're right, it's all OVER the thing. Many many themes, such an innocent looking fast reading book. Many many themes. Well worth the discussion (and some books are not!)
Bellamarie said: Elgin critiquing her thesis..... "You've romanticized your subject," Elgin had commented on the first draft of my thesis, in which I argued that Vitalis and Iusta represented early feminists. "And over identified with them."
Ok now I am beginning to see what you all are saying. I don't understand his point here, surely anybody would be interested in this rare court case which has been preserved and which nobody knows the outcome of? He's coming across here as an unfeeling chauvinist.
Right? or?
I love that question for Carol, Marcie, and since I can't figure out the answer to her answer I must ask:
Carol: What do you mean in reference to Sophie's cutting the grass after her recovery, "Sophie’s not supernatural, she’s just a TEXAN!" What is a TEXAN for those of us who have only ridden thru once or twice or been to Riverwalk?
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Okay so I had to leave abruptly earlier and did not finish my thoughts, and I just typed them and lost everything. grrr
Anyway, where I was going is this....Sophie says, "that Vitalis and Iusta represented early feminists." Sophie certainly sees herself as a modern day feminist.
The only reason Sophie accepted to go to Italy, IMO, is to find proof Iusta died a freed woman. It is important that this be the case, because Sophie identifies herself to Iusta. If Sophie can find the proof in the scrolls, she indeed died a freed woman, then she too will finally be free of all the wrong doings in the past of her mother, grandparents and herself that she assumes, because she takes on the responsibility of those past actions. When Elgin said, Sophie romanticized in her thesis, this gives me the insight, that in the end, Sophie wants to find her happiness and freedom, (possibly with Ely), just as Iusta would have died a happy, free woman.
The definition of feminist is....one who advocates equal rights for women.
So now, I am more certain than ever, the theme I am following.....is about the history of how men have mistreated women through out the ages, and Sophie's mission in life is to right the wrongs, through her thesis on Iusta. I can't wait to see how she is going to accomplish this mission. I too feel we have not seen the last of Ely. The romantic person I am, wants to see Ely free and the two of them together. hmmmmm Probably NOT!
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We've got a lot of themes here. We've got the plot over all and then the different themes seem to be informing the plot (or is it the other way around?) I'm trying to sort of do an outline of the plot (I hate outlines) but there are some things I can't fit in.
Can you shed any light on these?
-----What is M'Lou doing in the plot? What is her function? What about her appearance in hallucination with her son?
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" Yes. I've decided, yes." (page 87). Why did Sophie decide to go on the dig? I think this is very important, but I don't know the answer.
-----What did you take away from this first section? (The "Take Away" Question.)
I like the crow episode on page 78-79. A crow flies into the window and dies. Psychopomp is explained (there's also a crow in the Slonimsky Pythagoras in Love).
Have you ever heard that a bird flying into a window and dying means a death is coming to whoever is in the house? I have. We have a lot of glass here and we'd have been dead a long time if that were the case, but Sophie, because she knows this superstition and she knows the myth and she's thinking myth all the time, is thinking along the lines of the definition: "messengers sent to lead the soul into the underworld."
She says (page 79), I find it hard to dismiss the totally irrational thought that the crow, along with the book, is another calling card from Ely.
----Ok so what is she thinking here? If Ely sends a psychopomp in the form of a crow, then....?
I hate crows, they are the nastiest bird there is. Did you know they eat meat? Horrid things.
-----Who do you think the figure was outside her door on page 87?
-----We've had one good answer to this one, what's YOURS? What do you think is the most important thing to Sophie?
----What does the last sentence in this section mean? "We've come, I think, to the island of the Sirens."
The heading is getting very long, I'll just leave these here and trust you can see them.
What would YOU like to talk about today? I really would have missed half of these perspectives had you not voiced them!
Oh and I just saw another parallel too, on page 98 to how "many of the residents of Herculaneum died, choking on the poisonous gas let loose in the eruption." So there's yet another reference to breathing and lungs, paralleled in the past.
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Oh what good thoughts, Bellamarie. So you see Sophie as a feminist, with this definition: The definition of feminist is....one who advocates equal rights for women.
What do the rest of you think? Do you think that "Sophie
sees herself as a modern day feminist?"
What an interesting question. I think my own definition of feminist may need some adjustment...I would have thought a feminist would....I need to think about this. Something in her behavior with Ely might cause me not to think this. What do you all think?
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Ginny...speaking of Elgin's remarks of Sophie romaticizing in her thesis..."He's coming across here as an unfeeling chauvinist."
I didn't see it that way Ginny, but I can see it now. I saw Elgin, as an objective opinion in his field. But your observation, for me, falls yet again in line with males not respecting females. Elgin of all people, who uses women for his own selfish pleasures. Why does Sophie care about his opinion, and give his words so much weight?
Ciao for now..........
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Bellamarie said: Elgin critiquing her thesis..... "You've romanticized your subject," Elgin had commented on the first draft of my thesis, in which I argued that Vitalis and Iusta represented early feminists. "And over identified with them."
Ok now I am beginning to see what you all are saying. I don't understand his point here, surely anybody would be interested in this rare court case which has been preserved and which nobody knows the outcome of? He's coming across here as an unfeeling chauvinist.
Right? or?
Ginny: Can't agree that Elgin comes across here 'as an unfeeling chauvinist '- even if he was raised on a pig farm. ;) I read that passage as showing Elgin as being a good teacher and in his 'teacher' mode trying to goad his student Sophie into becoming more objective in her work and not to identify so closely with her subject.
And is there a parallel there -Teacher/student Elgin/Sophie and Sophie/Agnes. Both Elgin and Sophie as teachers want the best outcome for their student.
I really related to the lawn mowing episode - you just do it! And as for the comment about being a Texan - I thought that was rather like being an Aussie
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Oh GOOD points as always, Gum!
So there you are readers, what do YOU think? Do you think Elgin as being a good teacher and in his 'teacher' mode trying to goad his student Sophie into becoming more objective in her work and not to identify so closely with her subject. in the incident of his telling Sophie that she had over identified with the subject?
I think this one is something we need to hear from everybody on. I'd have thought personally he'd have turned cartwheels at the subject!
What do YOU think? This is great!
Gum! Aussie? I know you are Australian. What's an Aussie? I really related to the lawn mowing episode - you just do it! And as for the comment about being a Texan - I thought that was rather like being an Aussie
Let's do look at stereotypes! I'm reading The Big Rich which paints "Texans" in a pretty poor light, quite a few of them. I have been there, and have driven all over it several times, stayed in the incomparable Riverwalk in San Antonio. I love the vast spaces. I've not been to Australia at all.
What do WE think of when we think of TEXANS? Come on, be honest?
JR Ewing and the Dallas TV Show?
Cowboys and oil?
Big hair and loud voices in the airport?
uh....
I have almost shot my wad here. What do the rest of you think?
As for Aussies, what do you all think characterizes those in the Land Down Under?
I think Independence and possibly a free-ish spirit about things.
No worries, mate.
How close is that?
What are the stereotypes about Texans and Australians? How many are real?
Storms here, we have a ton of great things to bounce off of, till the weather passes, OR suggest your own!
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Gumtree, I am thinking along your lines that Elgin isn't necessarily a chauvinist when he tells Sophie that she has romanticized the subjects and is over identified with them. She does seem to have put a lot of herself into the story of the slave girl. He gave her an A+ on her paper and encouraged her to write her thesis on it and now wants her to be on the project with him. I don't think he means to discourage her but wants her to keep perspective.
Elgin definitely has a following of women students but there were also male students who wanted to be part of the project and were being interviewed. He is characterized as "Professor Romeo" by Odette and he definitely seems to have charisma and is attractive to women and seems to be attracted by Sophie, at least.
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In A Concise History of Mathematics Dirk J. Struik says:
As to Pythagoras' theorem, the Pythagoreans ascribed its discovery to their master, who was supposed to have sacrificed a hundred oxen to the gods as a token of gratitude. We have seen that the theorem was already known in Hammurabi's Babylon, but the first general proof may very well have been obtained in the Pythagorean school. Where the Babylonians saw it primarily as an achievement in mensuration, the Pythagoreans conceived it as an abstract geometrical theorem.
Frybabe Your comment about the Pythagorean Theorem being known in earlier times is very true but it is important to remember that the first general proof is held to be Pythagorean. I think the most significant aspect lies in the last sentence from the quote above:
Where the Babylonians saw it primarily as an achievement in mensuration, the Pythagoreans conceived it as an abstract geometrical theorem
To take the problem from practical mensuration to an abstract theory represents a major intellectual leap.
The Pythagorean Sect had many many members who all attributed their work to Pythagoras himself - some say the greatest was Architus. . Sect members all worked under the name of Pythagoras which may account for the enormous versatility of work attributed to him.
Among their other discoveries the P. Sect were the first to establish a scale for music which was based on simple ratios but because of the simple ratios was limited as to pitch. This raises the question of the Gregorian Chant which has a limited range, and whether it uses the Pythagorean scale. The musical range today is a modified or tempered version of a exponential scale eg. J.S. Bach's Well Tempered Clavier of 48 compositions demonstrates the effectiveness of his tempered exponential scale.
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I agree with those of you who see "filling a hole in oneself/becoming whole" as one of the main themes in the book so far. What steps do the people who have holes, or an emptiness, take to try to fill the void?
Some instances....
Sophie and Ely both have holes from the losses when they were 10 of Sophie's mother and Ely's brother, Paul. "There was a shallow depression in the center [of Paul's bed] the shape and size a thirteen-year-old boy would have made scrunched up into a fetal position."
Sophie and Ely both lost their baby and Sophie now has another actual hole, in her chest, from the gunshot. In the hospital with the gunshot wound she thinks back to the previous time she was in the hospital when she lost her baby. "The hollowness I feel in my chest now feels like the hollowness I felt then."
Sophie asks the bookstore clerk, Charles "What did Dale Henry use to fill his emptiness?"
'He used a big gun,' Charles says...."
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Where the Babylonians saw it primarily as an achievement in mensuration, the Pythagoreans conceived it as an abstract geometrical theorem
Perhaps I should have included that Gum. It was late and I wasn't up to an extensive comment. Yes, the first PROOF has been attributed to Pythagoras. The Egyptians and Mesopotamians didn't indulge much in theory and abstractions, only in math that had a practical application in the immediate sense.
I didn't know about the musical scale. Most interesting. Now that will lead me to hunt out a history of early music notation and development.
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Okay Ginny, sorry, I do have to go with my first instincts, and say I saw Elgin's critique as an objective opinion, and chauvinist never entered my thoughts. If I did not pay attention to the "Romeo" description of Elgin, I personally had respect for the fact he was heading up the Papyrus Project, and I would have been one of the first in line to go with him. I did see his critique, as him wanting to have Sophie think and write objectively, rather than emotionally.
But...........I will stand by my theory, that if others see his words chauvinistic, then it holds with the men/women disrespect and mistreatment. That remains in the theme, regardless of how Elgin's critique is meant to be.
As for my opinion of Elgin, if I don't personalize it, I see him as a well educated, prestigious professor, and an asset to the university. Now he may just show me wrong in this dig. As I said before...the men in this book seem to be well educated, but lack in emotions and attachments.
I posted the Plato theory the other day, referring to the Pythagorean theory of "God created everything through geometry." That hurt my head and will defer to others posting for further ideas. I'm sensing it wants to lead us to the evolution of man, and I'm not comfortable going there just yet, especially if it involves cults. I'll stick to the romance and mystery. lolol
Ciao for now......
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sophie goes because among other things she is interested in the new imaging techni
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I'm not so sure Sophie is interested in the new imaging technology for any other reason, than it will give her the answers she is looking for in the scrolls. If Elgin had not showed her how the new technology can actulally read what is on the scrolls, I'm not convinced she would have gone. IMO her main focus is finding out if Iusta was freed before she died. Elgin knew he had to convince her, they could read the scrolls. She not only wants to complete her thesis, she identifies with Iusta and wants to feel she too will be free of her demons of the past, so to speak.
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Hmm, have we thought about why Elgin might want Sophie on the project? What role is she supposed to play? What's her function? As far as I can see, completely unclear, perhaps even to Sophie and Elgin. At least, it's never explained to us.
I'm assuming here that when someone is not a student (which, of course, Sophie isn't) to be funded on a project like this you have to have a defined expertise and contribution to the project.
Hmm .....
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OK, I'll take the geometry question (#4) above. There are two number associations mentioned. First, the triangle composed of ten dots. This fascinated Pythagoras because if you take 1,2,3, and 4 and add them together, you get 10.
Not that exciting, but P. liked it. The triangle those dots, 1 dot then 2 then 3 then 4 forms is an isosceles triangle--remember those? All the angles are equal (60 degrees) as are the sides.
Second part, the 3,4,5 sequence. Here we get the Pythagorean theory that tells us that if you have a right triangle, with the short sides with lengths of 3 and 4 and the hypotenuse with a length of 5, then the square of the hypotenuse (25) equals the squares of the other two sides (9 and 16) added together. This is the ever-so-useful-in-building triangle that the residents of Mesopotamia used but never abstracted.
I loved geometry. Math only lost me when I got to Calculus II in college.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week 1: (pp-112)
1. Sisyphus! (http://seniornet.org/gallery/latin/Graphics/sisyphus.gif) Sillybos! Persephone! Demeter! Hades! Dionysus! Parthenope! Sirens! Minerva Tyrrhena! Cybele! Harpy! And many more! The first 112 pages are a rich riot of classical allusion. What reference in the first 112 pages would you like to know more about? Choose one which interested you and bring an explanation of it here so we can all learn.
2. "Many are the narthex bearers but few the Bacchoi." (page 76 ) What does this mean? Why is it repeated?
3. What effect does the First Person Narration of the protagonist Sophie and her point of view have on the reader? Do you think this narrator so far is reliable? Why or why not?
4. Both Sophie and Agnes seem to feel guilty about things or overly responsible for events. Why?
5. Do you understand the tetraktys? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/tetractys.jpg) What do 3, 4 and 5 have to do with the triangle of 10 dots (page 29)? Does anyone know anything about Pythagoras or Pythagorean theory? What does the word tetraktys itself mean?
6. What are the some of the main conflicts in this first section?
7. Do you have any personal knowledge or do you know of anybody who has been involved with a modern cult? What do you think the appeal of the modern cult is?
8. Why did Sophie not want to go to Capri? Why did she go? Given her rough start, what would you say the prospects are for a successful time?
9. How many contrasts are there in this section and how are they variously presented? What is their effect? Were there any instances of imagery you particularly liked?
10. We have a lot going on here in this carefully crafted first section: how many parallels so far can you identify? (let's keep a list)
11. What foreshadowing did you notice in these first 112 pages? Was the shooting a surprise to you? Do you think the phone call was from Ely? What if she had picked it up on the 2nd ring?
12. What one thing did you most like about the first 112 pages?
13. What are some of the emerging themes of this first section?[/b]
-------------1. death (and the possibility of rebirth?)-- the shootings (Deems)
-------------2. being buried alive (Deems)
-------------3. suffocation--Sophie's lungs, the nuns cells (Deems)
-------------4. a descent into the underworld (Deems)
-------------5. drowning (ginny)
-------------6.Sophie and her mother (drowned?) (Deems)
-------------7. Demeter and Persephone (mother and daughter)(Deems)
-------------8. Sophie and Agnes (Deems)
-------------9. Iusta and her mother Vitalis (Deems)
------------10. male treatment of women (bellamarie)
------------11. past and present and how it effects the future (bellamarie)
14. Have you learned something you did not know previously in the first 112 pages? If so what?
15. What IS important or seems important so far to Sophie?
16. What is the main "Take Home" thing you got from the first 112 pages (Mippy)
17. -----What is M'Lou doing in the plot? What is her function? What about her appearance in hallucination with her son?
18. " Yes. I've decided, yes." (page 87). Why did Sophie decide to go on the dig?
19. Do you think that "Sophie sees herself as a modern day feminist?" Would it be fair to say she is? (bellamarie)
20. What steps do the people who have holes, or an emptiness, take to try to fill the void? (Marcie)
21.What is M'Lou doing in the plot? What is her function? What about her appearance in hallucination with her son?
22. Do you think Ely represents Universal Person seeking religion? Or what is he seeking? (Norma). What are they all seeking if anything?
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/hr_blue.gif)
Schedule
Chapters 1-9 for June 1 - 7
Chapters 10-16 for June 8 - 14
Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22
Chapters 25-End for June 23 - 30
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
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In the first week of June, Week I we will not talk about anything other than what is contained in the first 112 pages. If your question may pertain to what comes later on, we'll ask you to hold that particular one for the end, so as not to spoil it for the rest.
Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrirollsonshelfbr.jpg)
Roman books as papyrus rolls on shelves with the sillybos on the end.
A lost Roman funerary relief from Neumagen, Germany.
Thanks to Dr. Sider for locating this for us.
New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!
Thank you Pat.
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Wow! ANOTHER new page? Page 8 already? Wow, thank you for holding that post, Pat, and lots of great comments on page 7, but am fighting storms and need to say one thing before being blown off because it's priceless.
I just heard from Edith Anne, who some of you know fell and broke her hip a couple of weeks ago, and has a new hip as a result. She's doing well in rehab, but the hospital lost her copy of The Night Villa, which she had so carefully taken along with her. When the hospital stripped the bed linens they took The Night Villa with them, and after a search, told her you don't want it now, it's in the hospital laundry so her husband brought her a new one and she hopes to be home weekend after next and join us then.
Now THAT'S dedication!
Lots of good questions still on page 7 in the posts, the heading is too long, so join right in!!
You all may be right about Elgin's critique of Sophie's thesis! I finally found her sort of admitting an over involvement on page 56. (Is this a magic book? Every time I read it I see something new). I may quibble about this one tho, when am not being struck by lightning.. hahahaa But EA's story (Edith Anne) was too good to keep.
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yep a right triangle is a pythagorean triangle. one angle is ninety degrees and the other two are complementary thirty degrees and sixty degrees. they are very useful in architecture. I did remember after all from geometry in the tenth grade. hah
claire
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Deems, thank you for that........but now what does it all mean pertaining to this story? lololol
I tackled the whole Plato, Pythagorean theory, and am suspecting this cult, that uses the triangle and number codes, could be a hint to evolution. What power do they think they possess? My take is, its not about Mathematics per say, it has to do with the theory of possibly the "geometry of creation of body and soul", and of course harmony etc.
As President Obama would say....."I think its above my pay grade." lolol
Sorry, no political stand intented, I personally am an Independent.
We haven't heard the last of this cult, or Ely I suspect.
Catbrown, I think Elgin made his reason for wanting Sophie to come to Italy clear, he knew how much she has been working on the Iusta story and he wanted to give her the opportunity to see the scrolls first hand. He knows what this would mean to her and to the university. Her contribution is not only the expertise of her knowledge she has from writing her paper, but the finished product of her thesis will give the universtiy high accolades. hmmmm have you read ahead?
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Edith Ann I wish you a speedy recovery and can't wait for you to join us. Wow, that is true dedication indeed.
Ginny, Please don't get struck by lightening, you are too valuable to us. And I would love to quibble with you. Who knows, you may even win some of us over. NOT!! Just kidding. :o
Ciao for now............
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bellamarie--I have no idea just what the triangles mean in this novel (we haven't finished it yet ::). I did find a connection between Pythagoras and the Orphic mystery cult. It followed the Eleusinian cult and had similar views about the immortality of the soul. Anyway, apparently Pythagoras was an initiate. The only other link I can find is to Ely and his creepy cult, and I agree with you--we'll see (or hear?) more from Ely.
Has anyone else noticed that Sophie gets over the murders (and her own wounding) very quickly? I don't mean physically. I mean psychologically. Two people died, she might have, and all of a sudden she's back on the trail of Iusta and meeting yet another man, the rich dude who reminds me of Bill Gates (except that he's apparently single). I expect we'll hear more about him too. His name is John and, is it, Lyric?
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Deems...Yes, I questioned the quickness of Sophie's recovery, and asked Carol if it's possible she is a figment of a story or dream, because my logical thinking, is NO ONE could recover and do all the things Sophie has done so quickly. She responded saying, "No, Sophie is not Super Natural, she is a TEXAN." Now with all due respect to our very gifted author, and even taking into consideration she consulted her polmonologist, and asked if someone could resume normal duties after this damage to her lung, and he said yes, and Carol pointed out Sophie did stay in the hospital for two weeks, making the argument she would be somewhat healed I suppose. I still question it, because you lose more strength when in a hospital, due to not exercising your dexterity's. Mowing the lawn the very day she came home, with half a lung shot out....I know Texans are rough and tough, but I still am not so sure about all the activity Sophie has done so soon afterwards. Physically or psychologically it seems a bit much.
I totally agree with your observation Deems, and like Carol also said, she will see the consequences. I can't wait to see what they are.
I also questioned, if Sophie herself was going through some sort of initiation, since I found those cults use intoxicating substances that cause allusions or delusions. She sure has had her share of them.
Ciao for now......
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Catbrown, I think Elgin made his reason for wanting Sophie to come to Italy clear, he knew how much she has been working on the Iusta story and he wanted to give her the opportunity to see the scrolls first hand. He knows what this would mean to her and to the university. Her contribution is not only the expertise of her knowledge she has from writing her paper, but the finished product of her thesis will give the universtiy high accolades. hmmmm have you read ahead?
He wanted to give her an opportunity? My point exactly. How did he get that funded? Wouldn't she have to have a role in the project that was more defined than that? Maybe not ... I'm not an expert on how these kinds of projects are funded and staffed, but it seems, well, fishy to me. Also, the project wasn't funded by the university, so her work adding to its prestige wouldn't fly for funding purposes ... or would it?
And, Bellamarie, yup, I have read the whole book, but I think the question is a fair one based only on the info we're given in these first few chapters.
Cathy
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Bellamarie's information about Pythagoras led back to Plato and the idea of a universal soul. In light of Ely's involvement with the Pythgorian cult, is he representing a universal soul. He is troubled, can't find meaning for his life. Isn't this the universal person looking for religion and aren't the mystery rites a religion?
Deems- Calc II stopped me cold also. It was like finding out I wasn't who I thought I was.
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Sophie identifies closely with Iusta, and she mentions she feels Iusta was a feminist. Would it be fair to say Sophie is a feminist?
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Norma--Good to know that I have company. When I hit the wall (and it really truly felt like a real wall) in Calc II, I realized that I was going to have to rethink math as a major.
catbrown--I'd say that Elgin wants Sophie in on the project for his own reasons --Ely is apparently gone, and the two had had an affair, but he could easily get her there on the argument that her dissertation had been on Iusta and new information about the slave girl would likely be found, leading to another publication for her. All he would have to do would be to make that argument to John L. who apparently has all the money in the world. I don't trust him. Actually I don't trust either man. And then there's Ely about whom we simply don't have enough information.
I'm not at all worried about Elgin's advice to Sophie to de-romanticize her dissertation. She had over identified with her subject. A dissertation needs to be "scholarly," or objective and disinterested. He was just doing his job as her director.
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Catbrown On the question of Elgin taking Sophie on the dig...It was Elgin's project - he was the driving force who initially found the funding - he was in charge of the project and could select those who accompanied him as he did with Agnes in the interview where the shooting took place. Also Sophie had been his first choice to go with him before appointing Barry Biddle who died when Dale Henry opened fire in the boardroom.
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NormaLemke, Dale was also a lost soul according to Agnes. pg. 65 "He seemed, well, I know this sounds so weird after what he did, but he seemed so sweet when I met him....just kind of lost..."
catbrown, On pg. 47 Elgin and Sophie discuss her going..... "And not only hasn't PISA pulled out, but we have a new benefactor: the Lyrik Foundation." "Really? I thought the Lyrik Foundation had turned you down, and considering that Barry was half the project-" "Please. Biddle was a deadweight on the project-no disrespect to the dead intended. You were always my first choice."
Then on pg. 51 "Two Gaius Petronius Stephanuses in Herculaneum at the same time period?" Elgin, asks, lifting an eyebrow. "That's what I love about you Sophie, you're a skeptic. You don't accept any data without proof. It makes you a rigorous scholar. Most people would be jumping up and down right now overjoyed that the subject of their thesis and the book they're working on had just showed up in a lost document, but not you."
I believe Elgin has genuine respect for Sophie. I think the two of them hold each other in high regard for their positions. Elgin may be a cad in his personal relationships, but I feel he takes his job seriously. Keep in mind Sophie turned him down the first time he asked, pg. 16 ""I wouldn't have minded being a part of the project if Elgin had a shred of evidence that the multispectral imaging was going to work on the papyrus scrolls from the Villa della Notte, or if he'd framed the project as an experiment, but instead he'd gone around spreading outrageous claims for the technology and promising lost manuscripts to gullible students like Agnes."
So as far as eligibility I did not see that an issue. On pg. 16-17 Elgin said, "But I'm afraid there's only money enough for us to take one, so that's why we're holding this interview___"
Ciao for now............sleep tight.
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Gumtree...the tooth fairy. Nice to see you, we are like ships passing in the night. Its like old times, me signing off and you signing on. Have a good day!
Ciao for now.........its bedtime for me. zzzzz ;)
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I guess I am a minority, but Elgin seems to be a good professor and teacher.. He wants Sophie who I suspect he regards as someone he has helped to go with him, because he feels she will add to the project. Even though he is a romeo according to the book, he is also someone who wants to do well and explore things. I also suspect that he may have some feelings for Sophie that she has not even understood.
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YIKES! Eight pages of posts, and I just got my book last night. I'll never be able to read all that, and I don't want to spoil the story for myself. Still, I'll read the book and maybe join you when I catch up.
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Steph....I'm with you. I agree with everything you mentioned and used his own words to show why I feel he's her mentor/professor/friend. They tried the relationship thing and it didn't work out. Maybe he does still have some lingering feelings. Seems she has some lingering feelings for Ely. She has made it pretty clear to Elgin she does not want anything more than professional relationship with him, at least that is how I see it.
Babi...Jump in, the plot will entice you, and you can always catch up.
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Deems "Has anyone else noticed that Sophie gets over the murders (and her own wounding) very quickly? I don't mean physically. I mean psychologically. "
I also agree with you and Bellamarie, and there's been a lot more psychological trauma too, much more than a lot of people could bear without something going on: the loss of the baby, we don't know how many years before, we don't know how old she is now (do we?) the concurrent abandonment of her ..partner…..whom I think she suspects of loitering outside her house, so she's definitely not over him, but perhaps, since we have direct access to her thoughts, she's done a superhuman job of repressing this? Pouring herself into her work?
That's why I asked originally what seems the most important to her. What does? Have all these traumas actually screwed up her thinking? They are bound to have had some impact. Dr. Phil would have a field day with this one.
I could NOT see, for instance, any connection between her and Iusta, at all. I mean read the Deiss. Both of their mothers were dead? Was that it?
I did not see any connection till I read again the bit on page 56 where Elgin says "Admit it….when you describe Vitalis paying off Calatoria you see your mother shoving it to your mean old grandmother, and the little girl…."
And apparently that aspect is what she honed in on? We don't have her draft, we have no idea. That's not what stood out for me in the Iusta story, I don't think that was actually the fact, you tell me, I actually still am having a time.
Here's what Deiss says on page 98:
And the girl Justa was accepted into the master's household and brought up "like a daughter" though illegitimate. For a decade and more all were in accord, all harmonious and happy.
But the peace dissolved at the birth of children to Gaius Petronius. Friction arose between his wife Calatoria and the freedwoman Petronia Vitalis. Arguments were unresolved, jealousies sharpened. Petronia Vitalis, as a freedwoman, could no longer be constrained to remain in her master's hosue: she chose to leave. She wanted a home of her own and economic independence. Apparently she was willing to work hard for what she wanted. But her master and his wife refused to relinquish Justa: a child brought up like a daughter, she was looked upon as their own.
Indignant at being deprived of her daughter, Petronia Vitalis brought suit against Gaius Petronius. After extensive negotiation, the case was settled with the award of Justa to her own mother, provided that Gaius Petronius be reimbursed for the cost of Justa's food and upkeep during the years of her childhood and adolescence. Petronia Vitalis, who had done very well for herself, immediately made the payment and received her daughter into her own home.
From Herculaneum Italy's Buried Treasure by Joseph Jay Deiss
There's nothing there, to me, to relate to. It's not there? This is NOT the lawsuit which we will be talking about, there were two. There …I don’t see it? So in that if she did identify Elgin was right.
Adding to the second lawsuit (are you surprised to see women in the ancient world bringing LAWSUITS?) Carol knows a lot about women in antiquity, I don't, so this is going to be a learning experience for all of us, but adding interest, the stepmother Calatoria who brought the second lawsuit was herself a former slave, a freedwoman.
Stephanie, I was trying to see Elgin and this male dominating vs female thing but the puzzle did not fit. A Romeo he might be, and most of us have seen the type but it seems in this I was wrong to want to correct him, it I guess was Sophie who was wrong in her "overidentification, " who knows? Without looking AT her draft we have no idea really WHAT he is or why he's saying it, I'll retract my objection to his behavior.
Babi, welcome, welcome!! YOU can catch us!
More…
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QUESTION FOR CAROL
Have you ever noticed when you're reading a book, suddenly there are references to what's in it everywhere?
I'm reading No Touch Monkey by Ayun Halliday, about her travels, this time in Bali. It's non fiction, I don't like to read fiction when we're discussing fiction, so I don't get mixed up any more than normal. That would make a good question for Carol, actually:
Carol: when you are writing a book are you able to simultaneously read the fiction of others? What authors have inspired you?
Anyway, here we are with Ayun Halliday in Bangkok, getting visas for Cambodia, and she says:
She was grateful we hadn't followed Danny to one of those Thai islands were backpackers converged to reenact The Bacchae every full moon.
There are the Bacchae again!!! Can you believe that? Small world. (I never knew backpacking thru Europe was such a nasty dirty experience, but I don't think anybody would take it up after reading her book. Somebody must have scared her about soap and water…she's patently quite proud of being filthy, but I digress). :)
Actually once at Stonehenge at obviously the wrong time of the year I encountered a whole MOB, and I mean MOB of…er…pilgrims to the site, it was some kind of phase of the moon or something...best avoided if possible. This is before they shut off the site and made people pay entry and so forth.
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I thought Marcie had a good question, also: What steps do the people who have holes, or an emptiness, take to try to fill the void?
I'll add one: what is the BIGGEST void you see that Sophie has in her life?
I've followed way behind in putting the themes in the heading, sorry, will work on that today.
Which one of the several voids (poor woman must feel like a piece of Swiss cheese) is the main one Sophie has in her life?
I would almost say needing to be meaningful to SOMEBODY who would not leave, how best to say that?
Claire, I think you have something there. Here is a person who can translate ancient scrolls of a particular interest: the lawsuit. Here is a villa very close to Herculaneum (still can't find map but it's a short walk) IN the park, where there may be more documents AND the ability to read them. If we read the links or the books on the ancient papyri we can see how rare that is.
So naturally she would be excited and interested, is that her prime motivation?
I also think Cathy's question is a good one. We can see Elgin got the funding and has offered internships, and as has said Barry was going along as translator, and they can only pay for one: but if you have somebody who has spent untold hours researching and reading the subject, she would be the best, if approachable, to do the work. That would be her function. I like this bit of the book, entering the scene where they are revolving around an interview for this expedition: kind of like Jurassic Park? Possibly she would be better at translating Justa than he was.
OK now all you Math Dudes, your talk of math might as well be in Urdu, to me, so you'll have to not only translate but help us here with it: I'm a tabula rasa when it comes to math. I loved geometry in the 8th grade but never seemed to arrive at the correct answer, tho loved the process. Very orderly.
Now here Deems tackles the issue: I did find a connection between Pythagoras and the Orphic mystery cult. It followed the Eleusinian cult and had similar views about the immortality of the soul.
Wow, now we're going to need all hands on deck when we get to the mysterious Eleusinian cults. I once followed up a link and found some of it surviving today in the Masons, I bet you don't believe that, in their mystery rituals. But apparently there were a lot of variations (let's hope so, what I've read about the original is a total turn off).
Norma: In light of Ely's involvement with the Pythgorian cult, is he representing a universal soul. He is troubled, can't find meaning for his life. Isn't this the universal person looking for religion and aren't the mystery rites a religion?
A universal soul? What an interesting comment. In the Deiss book there is this quote by Paul MacKendrick:
To come to know a fragment of our past is to recognize a piece of ourselves.
Is this why we read? To recognize a piece of ourselves? I'm thinking overarching themes here, let's watch the parallels, if there are any, I still don't see them, between Justa and Sophie. But there may be more than we realize.
And there again in Norma's thought we come back to the current PBS series with Joseph Campbell. Do you all believe what he said (somewhere on page 7 here) or do you believe that the ancients had myths as Norma asked, the universal person looking for religion
How would we answer Norma's question above? Is Ely the "Universal person looking for religion"...and thus meaning in life. And so is that what this is about ultimately? Maybe our current idea of "looking for meaning in life" or "wanting to make a difference" MAY come slap up against the ancients and their own ideas.
What a good discussion!
Bellamarie says Would it be fair to say Sophie is a feminist?
What do you say to that? What is YOUR definition of a "feminist," we've had one here already. Let me try to add all these questions to the heading which will become too long, but check there for new ones if I can stay on.
The chimney sweep is here and he says yesterday in this storm he lost all of the pictures of his granddaughter and 50 percent of his hard drive so I need to be careful here.
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The back of this book has a Reader's Guide in it. I like never to ignore Reader's Guides done by others, for some reason they seem to spark discussion so how about #6? Who is your favorite character so far in The Night Villa? Who is your least favorite?
We can do our own little Twitter here. Let's add WHY to the mix?
Inquiring minds want to know!
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Oh (sun is out!) I've been thinking about this ever since Gum mentioned it: This raises the question of the Gregorian Chant which has a limited range, and whether it uses the Pythagorean scale. The musical range today is a modified or tempered version of a exponential scale eg. J.S. Bach's Well Tempered Clavier of 48 compositions demonstrates the effectiveness of his tempered exponential scale.
Lately for some reason I've hauled out the Bach Inventions, two and three part. For some reason playing these (when I'm actually able to) really gives me a lot of pleasure again even tho I sound like an elephant on the keys.
Are they also somehow connected mathematically? They say they (along with Mozart) make you smarter, but as yet there seems no sighting of same here? hahahaa
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Ok heading updated as to questions and themes, I hope, what have we left out?
PS: This is supposedly one of the best sites (according to the Cambridge people) for Greek and Roman gods:
http://www.theoi.com/Pantheon.html
Good heavens, have you all LOOKED at the page marcie is doing in the heading here? Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
That is VERY impressive, Marcie, thank you so much!
Will you add Herculaneum Italy's Buried Treasure by Joseph Jay Deiss?
Information on Petronia Justa and her lawsuit as well as the imaging of the papyri, The Villa Dei Papiri and Herculaneum. Another excellent Getty book, but in black and white.
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Babi, I understand where you’re coming from, and I’m trying to catch up from only two days. And trying to understand it all without much of a math (nothing after Algebra II) or classical literature background. I’m familiar with the names, but not the specifics, so all the posts here are very enlightening. Thank goodness for them.
Ginny asks, “What’s a Texan?” I think of Giant – lots of holdings, lots of power. Have only beent to Houston – lots of traffic. From literature I get the idea that Texans think they’re bigger and better and can do anything.
I’ve been half buying into the idea that Elgin is really a good teacher/mentor/academian, (I know Steph and Bellamarie think so) but I have trouble forgetting about Professor Romeo, and keep thinking that Elgin wants what will make Elgin look good and will go to any lengths to get it. On p. 47 – Elgin says, “We have a new benefactor, the Lyrik Foundation.” And Sophie, “I thought the Lyrik Foundation had turned you down.”
Did Elgin put the cart before the horse? Did he tell John L. that Dr. Chase, an authority on the lost document of G. Petronius, would now be part of the project? And now he has to persuade Sophie? Probably hogwash, but I just don’t trust Elgin. I think Sophie’s reasons for not going originally, are legitimate.
Claire -- by the way such an ugly name for a beautiful but asexual woman.
I’ve always felt that way about the Latin word for beautiful – pulcher. So ugly. (I’m reminded of a lecture by Eliot Engel on our language – the harshness of “cow” compared to the more pleasant French of “boeuf” )
More speculation, wild theories. P. 59 -- talking about JohnL. “At that point his CV goes blank for almost FIVE years. Another trek in the Himalayas, I wonder?” JohnL was a classics and math major, PhD candidate. Did he get caught up in the tetraktys? Take a vow of silence? Parallels between Ely and John?
Andy and Ginny, I find those three questions from P. Golden Verses fascinating, and am glad you put them in the discussion. I think we’ll see them again. My first thought was that those are really not bad questions to ask oneself, except there is an assumption of guilt and wrong-doing, that one is perhaps not a good person.
Bellamarie, good point. Sophie, does not seem to have any particular material attachments of importance, except for her thesis. I think her education and her teaching job stands out to be the center of her purpose in life at this point.
What does she have? Her aunt, but apparently no other loving, caring relationships. Probably friends and colleagues, but no one really close, not for five years. Only work. Sad.
I’ve spent the morning here, and my head is still spinning.
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pedln--It's all enough to make the mind spin, no? And then we have the interesting problems presented by our first-person narrator.
I for one cannot figure out HOW when Sophie is delirious (or dreaming) she can remember what has happened with such incredible detail. I've had fever dreams myself which were indecipherable when I was in them and definitely not something that I could put into words afterward.
So there's Sophie on the floor of the nun's convent, now a hotel, and she remembers afterward all the strange happenings that occurred when she was running a high fever (pneumonia as it turns out). I just don't buy it. Not sure if it is appropriate to call her an "unreliable narrator," though I certainly don't trust her, but something is amiss with her --or with the characterization.
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Pedln...
More speculation, wild theories. P. 59 -- talking about JohnL. “At that point his CV goes blank for almost FIVE years. Another trek in the Himalayas, I wonder?” JohnL was a classics and math major, PhD candidate. Did he get caught up in the tetraktys? Take a vow of silence? Parallels between Ely and John?
Oh dear me....I was just about to type this and alas!!! you beat me to it. I had spent the entire morning going back over my reading, since Ginny mentioned this book seems magical every time she turns around something else is there. Now I have a list of things that can be clues and connections, be patient with me.
1. All the males seem to be mathematical geniuses. (although I don't really think the actual equations have anything to do with anything, I am still thinking its all about geometry = body and soul etc. the Plato/Pythagorean theory)
2. Clare, Iusta, Vitalis, and Sophie are feminists. (Clare was about to move into a feminists co-op.)
3. John, Sam, Ely, Odette, Agnes, Dale, Paul, and Ely's parents all I suspect have become members of the cult.
4. John after his 5 yrs of silence was sent out on a mission which is to fund the Villa De Notte trip.
5. Each member is sent out after their initiation and 5 yrs is up which means Ely will be on his mission which I feel will show up in Italy.
6. pg. 34 During her vision of Odette, after Sophie asks "Haven't I gone back far enough?" Odette's voice says, "It's not the direction you should be going in at all." "Many are the narthex bearers, but few are the Bacchoi." Then Charles says the same mantra to Sophie when she asked about Dale, Charles said, "Alot of lost souls come looking for something to fill thier empty places." "Many are the narthex bearers, but few are the Bacchio." pg. 76
7. Orange is the color representing the cult. Odette's clothes were orange, Agnes had on the orange sweatshirt, pg 24-25 "If only you had heeded the portents and signs! The code of rings, the message of the tower, the sign of fire in Odette's skin."
8. The mention of the tastes or scents which I belive are intoxicants of the cult members: Odette during the vision, gingery pomade, cocoa and cinnamon. When Sophie goes home from the hospital after losing the baby, the sickly sweet odor from Ely's room. Sam has chamomile tea for Agnes and the taste of sulfur when Sophie is in the hospital.
9. Sophie over idenifies with Vitalis and Iusta..pg 55 "just like you mother- when ever I slept too late." On the back of Odette's robe it said, "Some times I wake up grumpy. And sometimes I let her sleep in."
10. Agnes seems to be inticing Sophie to join them on the trip. I don't think Agnes is the sweet forlorn girl Sophie sees her as. Why would she live with all them guys? Only one girl. She says she had a lot of friends. Dale started isolating her. Sophie notices in the picture of Agnes she was heavier a few years ago. Dale lost weight , Ely went on a strict diet, and John Lyros had changed, his head was shaven, his nose broken. All of these indicate to me the changes that they go through initiation.
11. pg 87 Sophie is standing looking out her window she had gotten up because she couldn't sleep, Agnes comes on line says, "You couldn't sleep either?" How did she know Sophie was up?
12. Agnes had dark circles under her eyes when Sophie came to visit. Signs of staying up reading the "The New Age" reincarnation and numerology, books like Ely and Dale.
13. Ely's bedroom as a boy had the solar system hanging, burnt rust carpet, his room in Sophie's house had the solar system hanging.
14. Charles touched his rib in the same area Sophie had been shot. He referred to as an empty place.
15. Agnes's screen name..icon Brad Pitt as Achilles..Latinlover66, not so innocent I say.
I really am wondering about M'Lou now also since she said she was going to the "Whole food store." Why make the mention? I can't quite wrap my head around why I keep seeing Sohie is being put through an initiation of some sort.
Ginny...the connection I see Sophie has with Iusta is "feminism and freedom."
Okay so now like the rest of you, there is much to think about and figure out. I can't wait to read the next pages. No ONE is as they appear to be.........
Ciao for now............
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I wanted to bold more of my points above but the computer went into its weird state again and was not able to finish. Does anyone else have this problem? It happens to me while in the preview edit. Out of no where it won't allow me to do what I want to do. I really think its the site's glitch and not my computer. ????
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QUESTION FOR CAROL
Pedln...Did Elgin put the cart before the horse? Did he tell John L. that Dr. Chase, an authority on the lost document of G. Petronius, would now be part of the project? And now he has to persuade Sophie? Probably hogwash, but I just don’t trust Elgin. I think Sophie’s reasons for not going originally, are legitimate.
Nope...I don't think so, I think John Lyros's mission after his 5 yrs of initiation and silence was to fund this trip.
So we have a ton of puzzle pieces here, BUT we have NO box top to show us the puzzle. Or as Ginny keeps saying, "The elephant in the room."
What does this cult want with the scrolls in the Villa de Notte? Some times you have to clear the clutter in order to see the floor. There are a lot of smoke and mirrors I think in these 112 pages. But then how could we solve the entire mystery, with only one fourth of the pages of clues? I'll reserve the right to my suspicions till later.
Ciao for now.................
Carol, can I ask if any of my list of clues and connections make any sense at all?
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Wow, bellamarie, that's a lot of thinking to take in!!
I agree with you on some things--like I don't trust John L at all. Anyone with violet eyes (except Liz Taylor) is suspicious to me. He's up to something. Originally, he didn't want to fund the trip--and then he did. What's up with that? If anyone is a member of the Tetraktys--which I some day might learn how to spell--he's my candidate. Those missing FIVE years are mighty suspicious. Just what was he doing during that time? Hmmmmm?
Soon we will be into the next part--perhaps more will be made clear.
I'm really eager to see why Sophie is such a mess. And I don't trust her, or her memories, at this point. There's just too much missing. Gaps that need filling.
Ginny, you ask who is our favorite character. I don't have one at this point. Not a major one. I liked Odette but she didn't last long.
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so our author is heavily into characterization here. We can nterpret this kind of thing from our own experiences.
I have written a few short stories and can appreciate how you can get so involved in them that they seem to be real. In fact if I'm driving at the time I'm a real road hazard. It can become more immediate than the trauma that Sophie experiences along the way. Especially if she identifies so strongly with her heroine, i.e. Iusta.
there are two stories with two heroines. Sophie is needy and gets rescued by the men, whereas Iusta is more self sufficent even while a slave and doesn't need rescuing. The author has her weak side in sophie and her strong side in ijusta, which surprises me. I would have though it would be the other way around..
I should leave this alone for a while. I'm not getting anything else done i.e. the utilities bill, post office for samps and mailing package, food, chiropractor crunch. . .reading current goodman novel as well as checking back into this one for details, and just other stuff. This discussion is VERY interesting.
claire
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Claire what an interesting thought (in a fabulous post if you don't mind my saying so) The author has her weak side in sophie and her strong side in ijusta, which surprises me. I would have though it would be the other way around..
Why do you see Sophie as weak?
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Bellamarie, I have never seen anything anywhere like your post outlining the parallels. I think we need to preserve it somehow, I think somebody reading the book with their book group would find it very helpful, I did.
On this:
Ginny...the connection I see Sophie has with Iusta is "feminism and freedom."
How is Sophie free? Free from what? Do you all see her as "free?" How is she free? She's sure carrying around a lot of baggage?
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Pedln, how could I have missed the 5 years off by John Lyros? I feel as if I'm the one in the dream state! I'll be darned! Good for you, when you start thinking about it, it's like the Twilight Zone, which I LOVE. I don't want everything laid out for me flat on a plate, I like to speculate and this IS a mystery!
And GIANT, Texas, Big D. I still am not sure why a "Texan" would be different from anybody else.
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Do you all see Sophie as weak or strong? Why?
I liked this Pedln: Did Elgin put the cart before the horse? Did he tell John L. that Dr. Chase, an authority on the lost document of G. Petronius, would now be part of the project? And now he has to persuade Sophie? Probably hogwash, but I just don’t trust Elgin. I think Sophie’s reasons for not going originally, are legitimate.
Another question, another mystery, fun!!!
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Deems, you are such a hoot: I am so enjoying your provocative Devil's Advocate posts. If anyone is a member of the Tetraktys--which I some day might learn how to spell--he's my candidate. hahaha
It's amazing what you get on google when you misspell that thing, especially leaving out the last t. hahahaha
So Deems does not trust Sophie, or her memories at this point.
Do you all trust Sophie and/ or her accounts of what has happened?
I agree with Claire: This discussion is VERY interesting.
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Ginny ....."How is Sophie free? What makes her so? Do you all see her as "free?" How free?"
No, I do not feel Sophie is free. She is like a caged bird with all the allusions, delusions, past and present issues to deal with. I see her wanting to know Iusta was freed, so she can believe she will find her freedom as well.
Sophie has the strenght to travel to Italy all by herself, yet I feel she is weak when it comes to dealing with her personal issues.
I am still seeing Sophie half human, half mythical, like my post earlier about the struggle of half human, half god and struggling with the human and the gods.
Although Sophie is the main character/narrator, I am not drawn to her. I don't like a lot of her qualities. I am a woman who sees a problem and tackles it straight away and finds a solution or a way to accept it in my life. She who hesitates, is lost....
Do NOT ask me why, because I am still trying to figure it out myself, I am drawn to Elgin. Even though he is a Romeo, he has qualities I like. He seems to really care about Sophie.
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Ginny: "This discussion is very interesting."
This discussion is also very copious, so I can hardly think what to say before it has swept miles past me. I'll try to put in a few crumbs.
We've mentioned Agnes as being an ugly name for a beautiful woman, but let's not forget the importance of Sophie's name, Sophia. Sophia is wisdom, or the Goddess of wisdom, and Pythagoras coined the term philosophy, or love of wisdom. Not a coincidence.
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bellamarie says,
"No, I do not feel Sophie is free. She is like a caged bird with all the allusions, delusions, past and present issues to deal with. I see her wanting to know Iusta was freed, so she can believe she will find her freedom as well."
I agree with bellamarie--I don't see Sophie as free at all. I also don't like her much. She's too scattered, here, there, everywhere, acting sometimes like a scholar but more often like a lost child. Of course, I've known a scholar or two who was like that--completely competent, even brilliant in his/her area of expertise, but sadly lacking as a "well-rounded, adult human being."
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PatH......Sophia is wisdom, or the Goddess of wisdom, and Pythagoras coined the term philosophy, or love of wisdom. Not a coincidence.
WOW! Thank you for your crumbs, that can not be a coincidence at all. What was that Ely said about coincidences??? Something about if you are looking you will always find it.
So what wisdom does Sophie hold? Or rather is she going to find in them scrolls?
Drat I wish I was not so damned disciplined, so I could read the next pages. ::)
Ciao for now............
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Deems doesn't trust Sophie as a witness, and neither do I. But, as someone who has suffered from breathing problems (not, fortunately, from being shot) and whose worst fear is being unable to breathe, I have to say that, in the description of the stay in Naples and the visit to Herculaneum, as Sophie is struggling with weakness and oxygen deprivation and the story is deliberately dreamlike, Goodman gets the tone exactly right. That's what it's like.
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PatH--Interesting. How do you account for Sophie's incredible clarity and ability to remember the teensiest details like the red and white checked dishcloth at Ely's parents' house?
I just cannot make myself believe her. She's holding back stuff, I think. Not fair because she's the narrator. Or maybe will be seen as fair later. Don't have time right now to offer proof, but her contribution to the narrative has all sorts of holes in it. Example: All of a sudden, Ely leaves. Why? Other than his involvement with T word I cannot spell, why? She offers no explanation. We are left to believe that he has no reason--other than the cult. Tetra something or other.
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Okay, I do have to explain some of the reasons I like Elgin, although I know many of you don't trust him.
He mentored Sophie and was honest with her when he critiqued her thesis. He was fair to give her an A+, yet told her she had overidentified and needed to rewrite it objectionably. He asked her first to go on the trip because he knew she was knowledgable in the field of the Papyrus project. He showed her respect even after she stopped the relationship and turned him down to go on the trip. He valued her opinion and support of Agnes. He acknowledged her skepticism and called her a scholar, giving her not only a compliment, but respected her as a teacher. He brought her the proof she needed in order to convince her to come on the trip. And............the romantic in me did react to the fact he cared for her when she became ill in Italy. pg. 112
Elgin lifted me out of bed. He lifted me up and carried me out of the room and out of the Hotel Convento. When I woke up next I saw blue sky over me and smelled the sea. Elgin was leaning over me. "We're taking you to the island, he said. "We can take care of you better there." "As long as you promise not to let me forget to breathe or sink to the bottom of the river." I say. This makes him laugh. He leans down close to me and I see his eyes are the same blue as the sky. He takes my hand and squeezes it. "I promise I'll remind you to breathe. And I won't let you sink. I'm going to hold on to you the whole way." And he does. It's a long boat trip, but he holds my hand the whole way and every time I feel like I am falling he squeezes my hand and says, "Hold on." So I do.
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Interestingly, the final paragraph on pg 112 Sophie says,
When I open my eyes I see an immense tower of rock above me climbing from the sea to the sky. Swallows are looping through the air. Houses so white they look like they've been carved out of sugar cling to the steep slopes. The air is so sweet that no one could ever forget to breathe here. We've come, I think, to the island of the sirens.
When I googled island of sirens I got:
The Sirens Island
The Sirens Island was also a myth. It was said that any sailors who were sailing by the Sirens Island would hear the song of the Sirens and they would immediately throw themselves into the sea only to drown. The Sirens would sing a song so attractive and radiant that no one could resist it. The Sirens were sea nymphs with bodies of birds and heads of beautiful women. The Sirens' song had caused many sailors to drown. The only time the Sirens had failed to capture anyone was when Odesues and his men went by the island. They put wax in their ears and tied Odesues to the mast. The Siren's Island has been told as a myth for many years.
HUH???? With her fear of drowning, how can she seem so serene approaching the island of sirens that would swoop her up if she did not have wax in her ears to protect her from drowning? Once again the wax has a major importance, it saved the scrolls.
She is one complicated "figure or figment of a woman."
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I don't know why Sophie isn't worried about the Sirens. Maybe because she's not a man???
Oh, by the way, I have nothing against Elgin Lawrence. I think he's OK, at least as a professor and scholar. It's John L, the rich computer guy with violet eyes that I think bears watching. There's something kinky about him.
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(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week 2: Through Chapter 16:
The Game's Afoot!
1. What an exciting section! So many clues, so many mysteries!! What do you want to talk about first?
2. Who do you think was in the blue and white sailboat?
3. What cult do you think Iusta belongs to?
4. What is the meaning of the three squares, first at the table and then in the mail? Who do you think is sending them?
5. What do you think is Maria's real interest in the project?
6. How many themes of rebirth and resurrection are there in this section?
7. Can you shed some light on any of the following?
----Parthenope
----Agrai Mysteries
----Oxyrhynchus Project
----Petronii
----The Sibyl of Cumae
----Isis/ Apuleius
----Wilhelmina Jashemski
8. This would make a great movie. Who would you cast in the parts? Who do you see as Simon, John Lyros, Elgin and Sophie particularly?
9. How would you characterize the atmosphere on Capri?
10. What do you think John Lyros is actually after?
11. What did you like best in this section?
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/hr_blue.gif)
(http://seniornet.org/gallery/latin/Graphics/ProserpinaRape400.jpg)
The Rape of Persephone
Bernini 1621-24.
Rome (Villa Borghese)
Schedule
Chapters 10-16 for June 8 - 14
Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22
Chapters 25-End for June 23 - 30
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
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Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/villaweber1.jpg)
Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.
New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!
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I just received my book two days ago and reading the pages assigned was a breeze in comparison to reading al your erudite posts.
I would like to point out something that I noticed but didn't see in any of the posts. The Author is introducing us to multiple present day religions : Sophie German Roman Catholic, Agnes Baptist Ely-Jewish.
Then there is the local Cult-Church of Tetraktys. Ely and sophie discuss the Wiccans, and the Jungian Archetype (Not a religion per se but a belief system).
?
Then we hear about the Pythagoreanists who ask themselves the three questions: Where Did I go wrong today?, What did I accomplish?, What obligation did I not perform?
On page 49 we read of the Writer who has written ,"My life has been spared so I can finish my life project-The History of Religion which begins with the book Athenian Nights.
Page 90 introduces us totheSepolte Vive-the order of Nuns whoare called buried alive and slept in caskets.
Page 101 introduces us to the Dionysian rites and the veneration of the phallus. Other strange and cruel groups(so called religions are also mentioned).
Is the author setting us up to not be shocked at the stranger religous rights that are to come or is she saying be aware of the many belief systems and do not judge the?. They are all variations on the need for a belief system and are leading us into a maze .
I'm hooked !
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Jude...I was noticing the different religions and the strange thing is that Sophie resents being raised German-Catholic. She quit going to church at age 10 or 12. On pg 28 Clare is asking Sophie if she is sure she knows what she is doing (keeping the pregnancy) and says, "Or was it I wanted to relive my mother's story, only this time keep the baby and not let some crazy religious fanatics get ahold of it thus rewriting my own childhood crisis of abandonment."
The thing that hit me when I read this paragraph is the words crazy religious fanatics. I am Italian-Catholic and my husband is German-Catholic, and we know many others of this race/faith and have never been referred to with these words. But getting back to your question, I think the religions are all mentioned so we are aware of the many different kinds, setting us up to the strangeness of the cult so many of the characters are a member of. I think people see other religions as crazy and fanatics when it is extreme, but the Catholic faith to my knowledge has never been considered extreme because of their beliefs of protecting the unborn there for not allowing abortion. Catholicism may be considered strict in some areas, but compared to many other faiths such as the tetrakty it would be mild. So I am scratching my head on this view. But then much about this book has me going ??????huh?????
Ciao for now...........................
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Deems "Has anyone else noticed that Sophie gets over the murders
(and her own wounding) very quickly? I don't mean physically. I mean psychologically. "
I also agree with you and Bellamarie, and there's been a lot more psychological trauma too, much more than a lot of people could bear without
something going on:
I'm reading some of the posts, avoiding those like the quote from pg. 98. I'm not that far yet. But about the above quote, it seemed to me that the psychological trauma of the loss of her baby, and all that happened at that time, was so great that the impact of the current events is diminished by comparison.
PEDLN, actually Texans come in all varieties, just as in any other place. Texas does have a fascinating history, tho'. The 'Texas brags'stuff is mostly tongue-in-cheek and entertainment for the tourists. Nevertheless, some of the claims are true and actually happened.
Oh, I definitely want to come back and read some of these wonderful posts after I've caught up. I don't want to 'spoil' the story as I read, but I saw enough in these posts to want to read more.
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Hmm, I like both Elgin and John.. They are both different, but seem intent on what they are doing and why. Having too much money makes John look at life a bit differently.
Sophie and the hallucinations bother me..Somone already mentioned that she did not think fever hallucinations were like that and I agree.. Dreamlike states however.. Hmm, could Sophie use the vivid mental pictures are another way to enter the dream world and not really be hallucinating in the classic stage..
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I like the way we're all over the place about this, and the characters!
Welcome Jude! Love your reference to all the different religions, good one!
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Bellamarie and Deems don't see Sophie as free. Bellamarie says
"No, I do not feel Sophie is free. She is like a caged bird with all the allusions, delusions, past and present issues to deal with. I see her wanting to know Iusta was freed, so she can believe she will find her freedom as well."
I'm having some trouble with the freedom issue and Sophie but I'll hold on and see what happens!
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Pat thank you for your crumbs, loved the Sophie meaning and I agree with you about the drugs, and the state they can induce, not to mention this person is on Oxycontin AND Shiner Bock, it's a miracle she did not think her own toes were grass and try to cut them. No joke, that's a dangerous combination. Andrea can tell us more about this when she returns.
Also thank you for your mention of the word TONE. I have been wanting to ask what the tone is since we started. What is it, would you all say?
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Bellamarie said: I don't like a lot of her qualities. I am a woman who sees a problem and tackles it straight away and finds a solution or a way to accept it in my life. She who hesitates, is lost...
I think that's exactly what she's trying to do!! What do the rest of you think? Or do you think she's running from the problems? A lovely character to explore!
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Jude S! Another great point about multiple present day religions being introduced, good one! I'm hooked, too, welcome again!
I liked this question from Jude:
Is the author setting us up to not be shocked at the stranger religious rights that are to come or is she saying be aware of the many belief systems and do not judge the?. They are all variations on the need for a belief system and are leading us into a maze .
I don't know! With all this swirling excitement, I'm about ready for anything! Glad to have you!
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HO! That's right, Babi is an actual Texan! Hahahaa I forgot that. Is there somewhat of a "can do" attitude there?
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Stephanie, that's an interesting question: Hmm, could Sophie use the vivid mental pictures are another way to enter the dream world and not really be hallucinating in the classic stage..
Good question. I wonder if creative people sometimes enter into a sort of day dream type of parallel existence? I would not know, not being creative, but I think I have read about it in others.
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Here at the end of the last chapter in our section we've got a funicular and a strange twist on the Demeter myth, we might need to look at the main players appearing here in connection with the (fictional) Villa Della Notte: Demeter, Persephone,, Hades and Dionysus. PLUS Sirens. The Sirens here might bear watching since it appears Sophie herself has gone to the island of the sirens, Capri.
Also mentioned several times is the funicular in Naples. I've found a photo of the funicular in Naples but it's at the station and looks like the trams in the Atlanta airport, actually, can anybody find one of it actually ascending or descending something?
Here's the old one that used to go up to Vesuvius, believe it or not! The first one ever, I think. (They are also considering one at the new complex being built at Stabiae)...
This is where the song Funiculi, Funicula came from. It operated from the late 1800s till I think the eruption in WWII. (http://seniornet.org/gallery/latin/Vesuvius/Funicular350.jpg)
Here's the one in Montmartre, in Paris, this is one fun ride: http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/fr/funicular/Paris/pix.html I'd like to find a like photo of the one in Naples, tho, other than in the station where it appears just like the Atlanta airport shuttle. There's also one on Capri: http://www.capriweb.com/Capri/Transport/Funicular nice view: http://cruises.about.com/od/mediterraneancruises/ig/Capri-Photo-Gallery/capri005.htm
Don't you like the old Vesuvius one and the Montmartre better? hahaaa
Still looking for photo.
An exciting start for any book here in the first 112 pages!
I will stir the pot a bit more by saying I see Sophie as strong, a person who keeps going, keeps plugging, no matter what (incident with lawn mower, which I thought was an hallucination and is not). Determined. Maybe not over emotional, or letting herself be, because of past experiences, maybe burying self in her work, saying on the face of it "it is what it is," but the ghosts of her past keep intruding.
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Ginny
In regards to your remark that Sohie is a strong character. Yes she is strong but in her strength is her weakness.
Mowing the lawn after coming out of the hospital is close to lunacy.
Going on that long trip in Naples, with a half a lung still not working is the same kind of lunacy.
These kind of actions make her a flawed heroine who won't give up but is so in need of proving her strength that she endangers her life and then is saved by folk who are either kind or more aware of danger than she is. Her need to constantly prove her self worth may get her into some serious hot water.
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This is a mystery novel, and I like it better as I read ahead. Improbable things don’t bother me as much now that I am in the thick of the action and action there is.
Ginny,
“Good question. I wonder if creative people sometimes enter into a sort of day dream type of parallel existence? I would not know, not being creative, but I think I have read about it in others”
I have several members of my family who are very creative and to me they are not always realistic in their goals. But they are entertaining and fun to be with.
http://www.funiculaire-quebec.com/en/PhotosFuniculaire.htm
I always take the funicular when I go to Quebec city, it’s a lot of fun and a little scary too..
I am glad I kept reading because now the novel has taken a whole new slant. The characters are more in tune with their personality and their experience, and they relate to situations in a more appropriate manner. The narrator seems more objective now.
I don’t trust Elgin, Sophie would certainly not be happy with him, she deserves better. Ely and Dale are caught up in a sect, a sect often fits quirky types of personalities. A sect is dangerous.
John for a change is not tall, blond, blue eyed, at last, someone normal, but violet eyes? No way. But he is beyond rich and I wonder who he is going to fall in love with, Sophie or Agnes. At his level I think he is serious enough to prefer Sophie as Agnes still has too much growing up to do before she becomes interesting for someone like John. Elgin, if he can't reclaim Sophie might claim Agnes, but for how long? Poor girl.
I think we have not heard the last of Dale and Ely and the Tetraktys. This is a very dense and complicated story with many leads taking us in many different directions, I won’t try and guess the outcome, it can be anything.
I love the description of the scenery. If I was in that part of Italy right now the sheer beauty of nature would overwhelm me, erasing every thought for a while. I will be close to there next September and I wonder if I can take a side trip to go and see Capri.
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how is sophie weak? hmm let's see.
she puts up with Ely's advnetures into mysticism without giving it even the attention she gives to when in the bookstore with charles although it is destroying their relationship.
she just assumes that he's smarter than she is and so he must be right in whatever he does.
ely's parents seem to be pretty typical of a nice jewish family, and I know that one from experience, but he makes negatives about all their attributes. need an essay here and that's too much. so that's an issue especially since he thinks he has to be his perfect brother and that will solve everything. he's pretty mixed up and she doesn't say anything about it. jut goes along
Iusta has a plan and is willing to sacrifice for it. She just goes along with, changing her role as needed but sticking to her plan. i am getting ahead here, maybe? That is the trouble with reading ahead.
sophie is easily swayed and all but haullusinates possible alternatives . . . sorta sick. There is more only I'm more intuitive than factual in my sense of her confusion and disorientation.
I wouldn't want to be sophie who is observative but doesn't act on her observations. . ,John's violate eyes bother me too as I guess they are meant too, a touch of strangeness here, but she just thinks they are kinda romantic. John seems to be otherwise normal, so why are they even there in the story???hmmm strange. . . .
speaking of ""creative" people. Geocities sold out to another firm, JIMDO, which rescued my webside materiels but in a very disorganized way. I am better organized than they are. here's the new addy for anyone who is interested.
claire
http://artetal.jimdo.com/artetal/
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Ginny...I don't really see how Sophie was trying to attack any of her problems. Remember she turned the invitation down the first time to go with Elgin to Italy because she did not believe he could decipher the scrolls. She did not take action when she saw Agnes afraid, she even questions herself for not being more caring and responsive. pg. 27
"Could I really assign the moment of error to ignoring Agnes's problems with Dale? Wasn't there an underlying reason for my callous disregard of her emotional crisis? A root cause?"
And when she went to Agnes's dorm, again she remains mute instead of talking with her or even saying something to Sam. Why did it matter if it would have upset her? She is the teacher/mentor, isn't it her place to be more proactive? Why not get counseling if she is struggling with her past, causing her present to be stagnant? Its as though she is going through life in a haze. I don't even see where the narrator has indicated she buried herself in her work. If I had half the issues she has lived with, being an intelligent person as I can see she is, I would have gotten help. I just feel like I have not been able to find a way to connect with Sophie on any emotional level. I'm not so sure I have read once where she has used the word "love" for any one person or thing to this point.
I don't mean to be too hard on my observations of Sophie, but I just feel this distant, unattached person. She sees and notices situations in her life and others, and refuses to engage. Hopefully in the next pages we will see something different. I thought I saw a glimpse of her emotions on page 112, when she looked into Elgin's eyes and felt the serene feelings approaching the island of sirens. I almost thought I could feel her feeling love for Elgin, but then I sense she has been waiting for Ely to one day return.
Ciao for now..............
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bellamarie says, "Why not get counseling if she is struggling with her past, causing her present to be stagnant? Its as though she is going through life in a haze. I don't even see where the narrator has indicated she buried herself in her work. If I had half the issues she has lived with, being an intelligent person as I can see she is, I would have gotten help. I just feel like I have not been able to find a way to connect with Sophie on any emotional level." [emphasis added]
I agree. She seems disconnected to me. I can identify with her as a professor and that's about it. At this point I see her as a shell of a person with a PhD.
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Such juicy posts! So much to think about in them and ultimately in the book as well.
: She seems disconnected to me
You're right on Deems - Disconnected is the word
I find it hard to second-guess the characters so early in the novel. I don't see Sophie as being 'caged' as suggested by Bellamarie but rather I think she is badly wounded by her past - loss of mother, no known father, her grandparents, Ely and more especially perhaps the loss of the baby. I think the miscarriage was more important than Ely's desertion and so she hasn't room to really notice what Ely is doing and not doing- especially in relation to emotional support for her.
I think perhaps the shooting is something of a wake-up call for her and that after she comes home from hospital she decides to get on with things - mowing the lawn, for instance.- not the best choice but at least she's taking some action and quickly realised that
this isn't what the pulmonologist meant by light activity. I'm drenched in sweat within minutes and my arms and back feel as if I'm pushing Sisyphus's rock and not a ten-pound manual-reel mower. Still, it feels amazingly good to be doing something physical and to the see the results in each freshly mown path I clear. For the first time in weeks -since the sky exploded over my head in the conference room- I feel firmly tethered to the earth (my emphasis)
Even so, it's not all over for her and she still has the effects of her impending illness to contend with as well as getting back into some kind of normality in her life instead of, as I see it, brooding on the past so much.
I'll be glad to move on into the next section to find out more about Sophie.
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Ginny said
I wonder if creative people sometimes enter into a sort of daydream type of parallel existence...
I certainly don't pretend to be a 'real' artist - whatever that is - but I do paint and draw etc. and this happened a couple of days ago...
I was poking around my shelves searching out books which might have references to Herculaneum and one thing led to another ... several hours later I found myself in my studio deeply immersed in 'creating' a new art work based on Julius Caesar. I wasn't in a dream state - I had intended to do a couple of quick charcoal sketches but then the work took over and ...time passes...I'm somehow standing at an easel, totally absorbed and in the midst of a painting that has taken on a life of its own. It doesn't always happen like that but it does happen and the results can be either a success or an abject failure...
I've been working on the Caesar ever since despite the fact that other unfinished works and more importantly, commissioned paintings with looming deadlines, are languishing for want of attention.
I begin each session daunted by what I know I must do but after a few minutes Caesar kicks in and I'm in what Ginny terms a 'parallel existence' though I would never have called it that myself.
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Ginny : I must tell you that I've just collected a copy of David Sider's book, The Library of theVilla Dei Papiri. Haven't had much time yet to do more than flick the pages -but it looks great and can't wait to have a quiet read - maybe this evening....
One of the first things I saw was the photo of Goethe's watercolour of the eruption of Vesuvius in 1787...such a treasure trove...but the chapter on the Form of the Book in Greece and Rome has this wonderful opening sentence Writing takes many forms. I know I'm going to just love this book - thanks for recommending it Ginny.
Sadly, I can't seem to find the one by J. J. Deiss anywhere locally.
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You will love that, Gum. I am fascinated by books, to this day I don't open one that I try to figure out how it is bound. I must be nuts, but I do spend a good bit of time studying how it is put together, I've always wanted to see a demonstration on same. One time in the big museum in Munich, I got my chance, they started with the making of paper and you moved around and went from the beginning to the end, absolutely fascinating. All in German, which I know about as well as Urdu (nothing).
On the plus side: Fascinating. I believe I could make paper myself.
On the minus side: We were a small group of about 20 and the man making the paper wanted to engage us all, he kept shooting pointed questions at moi (apparently I look German) and being slightly puzzled when I did not answer. I sure got a lot out of that tho, and a souvenir of paper!
Gum,
I begin each session daunted by what I know I must do but after a few minutes Caesar kicks in and I'm in what Ginny terms a 'parallel existence' though I would never have called it that myself.
I hope you will share the finished work with us for the Latin classes reading Caesar, what a fabulous thing!
Still, it feels amazingly good to be doing something physical and to the see the results in each freshly mown path I clear. For the first time in weeks -since the sky exploded over my head in the conference room- I feel firmly tethered to the earth (my emphasis)
This is a good point, Gum, and I somehow (I believe this IS a magic book, shape shifting, I've now read it three times and I keep missing stuff, maybe something I read sends me off in this or that mental direction and I miss the facts.....hmmm....somewhat like Sophie?
Anyway I can relate to the above here, in spades, as a result of the recent broken leg and other strange complications.
On the disconnect, see next post:
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I managed to spend much of Saturday catching up on my reading and also reading the posts from June 1 on. GINNY, I was so excited to read about the
new developments in deciphering old finds; I can't wait to hear more about that. My one complaint about this book is that I'm more interested in what they find in the dig than I am in the contemporary story.
These kind of actions make her a flawed heroine who won't give up but is so in need of proving her strength that she endangers her life and then is saved by folk who are either kind or more aware of danger than she is. Her need to constantly prove her self worth may get her into some serious hot water.
Sophie hasn't shown a great deal of common sense in her actions, and I agree it is going to get her into trouble, JUDE. Do you suppose her attitude arises from her need to disprove the predictions her grandparents' were constantly drumming into her...that she was worthless 'like her mother'?
I agree, ELOISE. The Tetraktys are a central theme in this story; we'll definitely
be hearing more about them.
I think Sophie's inability to concentrate, focus, be firm, is largely due to the fact
that she has been sick and is not fully recovered. I'm sure we've all
experienced times like that. Ordinarily, she must be a person who can do all those things, or she wouldn't have attained her present scholastic level and expertise. I
suspect Goodman is using Sophie's weakened physical condition to lay the groundwork both for her weakened mental acuity and things to come.
BELLAMARIE, I don't think it was Agnes that changed Sopie's mind. It was Elgin showing her what that computer program could do, and then seeing that 'Iusta' was mentioned in the scrolls found. That was more temptation than she could resist.
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On the "strength" or lack of same and the disconnect of Sophie: Deems, JudeS, bellamarie, are you all saying that in order to be "strong," she has to face and deal with "her problems?"
Lovely tack here.
You've mentioned:
-----I think the miscarriage was more important than Ely's desertion and so she hasn't room to really notice what Ely is doing and not doing- especially in relation to emotional support for her.
-----I agree. She seems disconnected to me. I can identify with her as a professor and that's about it. At this point I see her as a shell of a person with a PhD.
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I'm not so sure I have read once where she has used the word "love" for any one person or thing to this point.
(That's a great point and that one makes me think that you'd like to see more emotion from her? About something? Anything? And since we lack that emotion should we conclude she is then "weak?" )
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I don't really see how Sophie was trying to attack any of her problems.
Does she HAVE to attack "problems" in order to be "strong?"
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I wouldn't want to be sophie who is observative but doesn't act on her observations. . ,
-------Yes she is strong but in her strength is her weakness.
-------These kind of actions make her a flawed heroine who won't give up but is so in need of proving her strength that she endangers her life and then is saved by folk who are either kind or more aware of danger than she is. Her need to constantly prove her self worth may get her into some serious hot water
What a fascinating conversation. So is it safe to say that most of us feel that to be "strong" involves a proactive personality who...."deals" with problems like a husband who has deserted her (how? by hiring a detective?) or the loss of a baby (how?) or who butts in to the lives of others (Agnes?) What would you have done in the case of Agnes, who, I personally thought was remarkably not forthcoming?
Disconnect? Lack of emotional involvement? What interesting points of view, how do the rest of you feel about Sophie so far? Let's watch her character, fabulous discussion.
Are we actually saying we resent now that we have her inmost thoughts, the lack of a sort of emotion revealed?
Eloise, love that funicular in Quebec, do try to get to Pompeii if you have not been, Capri is an easy boat ride from Naples, or especially Sorrento.
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The narrator seems more objective now. Oh look at this, Eloise has noted a change here, in the coming section, let's be alert for changes tomorrow , in all characters.
Something John Lyros said at the very end of this first section startled me and made me ask huh? Why? I'm going back to read that and then try to find Demeter and the sirens and see how they come together, these old myths may have 100 iterations, I want to find that particular one.
What last thoughts do you have on this first section today as today is our last day of the first week, what a joy your thoughts have been?
Is there anything you've learned you did not know in these first 112 pages?
What's the "take away" as Mippy put it which you got from this first section?
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I KNEW you'd catch up, Babi! (is that being a Texan? hahaha)
I do think you are correct here: I think Sophie's inability to concentrate, focus, be firm, is largely due to the fact
that she has been sick and is not fully recovered. I'm sure we've all
experienced times like that. Ordinarily, she must be a person who can do all those things, or she wouldn't have attained her present scholastic level and expertise. I suspect Goodman is using Sophie's weakened physical condition to lay the groundwork both for her weakened mental acuity and things to come.
I agree in that a lot of the opening pages take place after she has sustained a wound...she's in recuperation stage. I sort of imagine that she sees things as thru a veil or haze like most people do when recuperating, and let's face it, most patients center on themselves not those around them.
This is another good question: . Do you suppose her attitude arises from her need to disprove the predictions her grandparents' were constantly drumming into her...that she was worthless 'like her mother'?
What would be the effect, if a person had heard this all their lives, on their character, do you think? This is, or so I gather, quite common in some families. Would it tend to make you more...what?
I am unclear as to what it actually is her mother has done that was so awful, is there a father figure here? I just realized I...that I need to go BACK and reread!! :)
Tomorrow we hit the new pages!
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Gum--I just love how you come in the middle of my night and leave such interesting posts. I too would love to see your portrait, drawing, sketch of Julius Caesar! Somewhere along the line I missed that you are an artist in addition to all your other attributes. Keep coming in; it's so fun to read your posts in the (my) morning.
Babi says, "My one complaint about this book is that I'm more interested in what they find in the dig than I am in the contemporary story."
Oh me too, me too. It seems to me that this novel is plot driven, not character driven, and that there are two plots, the one about the ancient dig and the one about Sophie. And I'm only interested in the one about the dig. I'll wait for the next section to make any permanent decisions, but I think the problem occurs with the first person narrator--and the double plot.
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Babi.....
BELLAMARIE, I don't think it was Agnes that changed Sopie's mind. It was Elgin showing her what that computer program could do, and then seeing that 'Iusta' was mentioned in the scrolls found. That was more temptation than she could resist.
You may have missed my prior post, I had mentioned I felt it was Elgin who convinced Sophie to go with his proof they could read the scrolls with the new technology. I also said later, I felt for some reason I felt Agnes was enticing Sophie to go. I have a little suspect as to why??
I have begun the next pages and so many notes taken I feel like Sherlock Holmes. Lots to share but must go to church. Unlike Sophie, I find great solace in having a Catholic religion. lolol
Ciao for now......
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Just finished the second week. Not sure when it kicks in, either today or tomorrow. It just blew me away. Whew.. Stories into stories and mysteries turning on themselves..
Sophie.. I still have problems with the fact that from the very first page, Eli was on her mind. Had he stayed on her mind for however long it had been?? She obviously has strong emotions still. No idea why, since he sounds like a first class creep.
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Two non-psychological facts interested me in this first section.
The choice of the name Elgin fascinated me. Why Elgin? This is the name of the first mass produced wtch in the USA. Starting at the end of the Civil War until the end of WW2. At the site for Elgin(in Ill.) there are numerous restoration groups for old buildings.
Can anyone else add to this or have a clue about why the name Elgin was chosen?
The other new fact that simply amazed me was the common use of Opium at this time and place (Pompeii and Herculaneum). Mainly used for sexual acts but well known as a soporific. I looked up the history of Opium and was blown away. Here are a few of the amazing facts.
3400BC-Opium is first cultivated in Lower Mesopotamia.
1300BC- Egyptians of Thebes cultivated the poppy and developed a flourishing trade in Opium.
1100BC-Raised on Cyprus where new instruments were developed to cull the juice.
400BC-Hyppocrates, the faather of medicine, acknowledges its use as a narcotic and styptic but dismisses its magical attributes.
330AD-Introduced to Persia and India.
400AD-Introduced to China.
The article on Google goes on and on and more and more fascinating facts regarding this substance and its use are revealed.
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QUESTIONS FOR CAROL
JudeS...I wondered why Ely and Elgin. Let's ask Carol and see what she says. We haven't heard from her for awhile. I wonder what she thinks of all our post?
Questions for Carol......
Where did you come up with the names for the characters in this book?
Do any of the names have any significance or are they coincidences to their meanings?
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JudeS asks, "The choice of the name Elgin fascinated me. Why Elgin?"
Just a guess. I think there might be a connection to Thomas Bruce, Earl of Elgin who got permission from the Ottoman Empire to remove pieces from the Acropolis. From 1801-1805, his people removed about half of the statues from the Parthenon. Eventually they wind up in the British Museum and are called the "Elgin Marbles." "Elgin," in the case of the Earl, is pronounced with a hard G as in "go." I looked Elgin up on the internet because I remembered seeing the Elgin Marbles in London.
Your information on opium is most interesting. Those poppies have been with us for a long time, haven't they?
Opium smoking figures prominently in Dickens' Mystery of Edwin Drood, the novel he was in the midst of writing when he died.
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Deems...
Your information on opium is most interesting. Those poppies have been with us for a long time, haven't they?
Yes, indeed and who knew, opium from poppies? But then again many plants and flowers have hallucinatory drugs in them. Just yesterday AOL had a picture of my favorite flower the hydrangea and said it can kill dogs because it has cyanide in it. Here I just planted two beautiful plants last year, near the very spot my dog hangs out in our back yard. Egads! I will be digging them up soon, and replanting them in a spot my dog does not go around. I think there should have to be labels on all plants and flowers to make consumers aware of what they are bringing home.
This next section of the book was very enlightening and I can't wait to see what everyone has to say. My theories and suspicions are all revealing themselves. I have some really juicy stuff to share with you all tomorrow. Just like George, I will leave you here wondering.
Ciao for now...........
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Gumtree....
several hours later I found myself in my studio deeply immersed in 'creating' a new art work based on Julius Caesar. I wasn't in a dream state - I had intended to do a couple of quick charcoal sketches but then the work took over..
Wow! I am impressed we have an artist among us. I would love to see your work Gumtree. For so long you have been the nightly tooth fairy in my image, suppose you could paint one for us?
I truly am blessed to have come across Seniorlearn a few years ago by accident. The people here are so multi- faceted, multi-talented and seem to have much education, experience and travel behind them. If ever there is a group to solve this mystery, it is this group. Carol I hope to hear from you soon.
Ciao for now.......
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Great thoughts here today! I finished the second part absolutely breathless and can't wait to hear what you have to say so put up the heading early. :)
Stephanie, I agree: Just finished the second week. Not sure when it kicks in, either today or tomorrow. It just blew me away. Whew.. Stories into stories and mysteries turning on themselves.. We start in the morning!
Deems, thank you for the Elgin supposition. I did not know it was pronounced El Gin with the gin hard. That's like Carnarvon , (he of the King Tut discovery with Howard Carter). I can never pronounce that correctly, there are two ways to say it actually.
Jude, thank you for that interesting history of opium in the ancient world. Are the "poppies" we're talking about the red ones you see everywhere there?
Bellamarie, thank you for such a nice post, I agree, our readers are really sharp and very special. The second section blew me away also, can't wait to hear what you all made of IT! :)
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Refresh my memory somebody. I thought the lawsuit regarding Iusta was between Petronia Vitalis and Calatoria Themis. Here is an article that says that the lawsuit was between Iusta and Themis. http://www2.ulg.ac.be/vinitor/rida/2000/metzger.pdf
I haven't read it all yet, but so far it is kind of interesting. It mentions 18 documents which include lists of witnesses, and there is a lawyer who switched allegiances from Themis to Iusta. Oh yes, and the magistrate in Herculaneum lacked jurisdiction, so the lawsuit had to be referred to Rome.
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I assumed Elgin was named because of the Elgin Marbles and put it down to a little whimsy on the part of our author Carol - as I said earlier the name struck me as being so apt for a man involved in archaeology.
The Greek authorities would dearly love to have the Elgin Marbles back in their keeping. I think that at the time, Lord Elgin had permission to ship them to England but the disputes over ownership still go on
Frybabe: Thanks for Iusta's lawsuit - I haven't read it all yet but will do so later in the day.
Bellamarie: Don't be impressed - trying to paint is no big deal, just a lot of hard work and messy too - think of all the clothes I've ruined because I was too enthusiastic to worry about changing before I got stuck into it. >:(
Deems: You are too kind but your words cheered me tremendously. Thank you!
Now, to get back to my Caesar
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That's interesting, Margie, and so it the link you provided, though i must admit I got hung up on some of the legalese. I had been thinking that Iusta was entirely fictional. But apparently not. It sound's like Vitalis, the mother, had died, and that's why Iusta had to go to court. Here's a link about Goodman and how she happened onto Iusta. I don't think there are any spoilers in it.
Goodman finds Iusta (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/ae/s_586598.html)
Ginny, what exactly is a vadimonium -- bail?
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I feel like I don't know where to begin...there is so much going on in these pages. Since I was familar with the Cumaen Sibyl from reading Margaret Drabble's book "Seven Sisters", I decided to begin here. I found this and want to share it. Sorry if its lengthy.
The Cumaean Sibyl
Ancient Rome's Great Priestess and Prophet
Centuries ago, concurrent with the Fiftieth Olympiad and the Founding of the City of Rome, an old woman arrived incognita in Rome. She came to see King Tarquin. She told him that she came on business, which she then clarified for him: she came to see him on the business of the state. She offered to sell him nine books. Her price was three hundred pieces of gold.
The king couldn't believe his ears. Nor his eyes. "Books? What books?" She was such an old woman!
"I want to sell you nine books," she told him. "They contain the destiny of the world."
The king still could not believe his ears. "The what?" he asked.
"The future of the world," she told him in simpler terms. "My books contain the destiny of the world."
"Even so," said the king. "The price seems too high..."
A few weeks later -- for the old woman had to journey all the way from Rome to Cumae, which is on the north hook of the Bay of Naples, and then, all the way back, crossing the farm lands of Campania -- she presented herself again at the audience chamber of King Tarquin.
"What now?" he impatiently asked. She was really an old, old woman.
"I offer you six books for sale," she answered.
"How much?" he asked.
"I told you. Three hundred pieces of gold."
"Too much."
Some time later, for the old woman was not as young as she used to be, and the roads between Cumae and Rome are very long roads in any century, she presented herself again at the court of King Tarquin.
"I can offer you three books," she told the king.
"How much?" he inquired.
"Same price. Three hundred pieces of gold," she said.
"What happened to the other six," he asked.
"I burnt them," she said.
King Tarquin bought the three remaining books, which contained the destiny of the world, for three hundred pieces of gold, from the old woman. She was the Cumaean Sibyl in person.
Then he asked her to rewrite, or to have reconstituted, the other six books.
"No," was her reply.
After he had read his three books, he asked her again. "No," she repeated.
Thus, great Rome rose to be a kingdom and subsequently flourished as a republic, which conquered Gaul under Julius Caesar. Then Rome inaugurated its worldwide empire. That Caesar was stabbed to death in the Roman Forum. And all these centuries, Rome expanded but never knew its destiny, until it finally collapsed. What wisdom might have been gleaned from those six burnt books?
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In a closely guarded vault beneath the Capitoline temple of Jupiter (in Rome) were once kept the renowned sibylline books, which were consulted by the college of priests on the occasion of earthquakes and other disasters. History records that the Apollonian sibyl who dwelt by the spring at Cumae originally offered Tarquinius Superbus (534-510 BCE) nine books of oracular utterances in Greek hexameters. The price being too high, Tarquinius rejected the offer, only to learn that she was burning the books of wisdom one by one. When the sibyl shrewdly offered the remaining three books for the same exorbitant sum as the original nine, he paid the price, and the books were preserved until the disastrous fire which incinerated the Capitol in 83 BCE.
After that disaster, the Senate sent envoys to various oracles to collect similar prophecies, assembling a collection that survived for several centuries until it was reportedly destroyed by Stilicho.
Virgil, in his Aeneid, describes the Cumaean Sibyl thus: "She changes her features and the color of her countenance; her hair springs up erect, her bosom heaves and pants, her wild heart beats violently, the foam gathers on her lips, and her voice is terrible." And when she was possessed, Virgil added, "She paces to and fro in her cave and gesticulates as if she would expel the gods from her breast."
One of the Cumaean Sibyl's peculiarities, moreover, was that when consulted she would write her predictions on oak leaves and lay them at the edge of her cave, from which they were blown hither and yon by the wind and often confusedly mixed up, making them all but unintelligible to their readers. The Cumaean Sibyl, declared one historian, never sat on her tripod to give answers without first swallowing a few drops of the juice of the bay laurel.
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[The following is from Priestesses by Norma Goodrich Lorre.]
The Roman Senate ordered two Roman patricians to rewrite the lost Sibylline Books. Later, their ranks were increased to Ten Men; their ranks were, in turn, increased to Fifteen Men, later to increase to a whole College of Priests charged to reframe the lost Sibylline Books. No one else was ever permitted to read the three original Books. One Marcus Atilius was sewn into a sack and thrown into the Tiber River for authorizing someone to copy them.
Julius Caesar gave a copy of the Sibylline Books to his high priests, who were the only public servants legally allowed to read them. These Books were guarded, stored, and preserved in subterranean chambers of the Capitoline Hill. Those chambers and the temple on the Hill had been completed and consecrated in 500 BCE.
The Sibylline Books were finally completely destroyed in 83 CE when the temple of Jove Capitolinus burned.
Augustus Caesar authorized a High Commission to seek out capable authors worldwide, who were to rewrite, edit, and reestablish the Sibylline Books. They may now be read in The Apocryphal Literature edited by Charles Cutler Torrey, who has said that the present Books IV and V were written by the Sibyl who introduced herself as a granddaughter of Noah.
The Sibylline Books and their troubled history may also be traced in the extant books of Roman historian Livy (Volume III). He follows their thread from the year 461 BCE, when the two original commissioners (duumviri -- "two men") consulted the Books because of a terrible earthquake when the heavens also blazed -- and again in 443 BCE, when people and cattle were struck by an epidemic. The Sibylline Books warned Rome of all multiples of three.
The Senate had recourse to the Books again in 399 BCE, a year of catastrophic distemper in humans and livestock. In 343 BCE, they were again consulted because of a fearsome omen: a shower of stones fell on Rome.
Livy says it was the Cumaean Sibyl who told the Romans that their Gods and Goddesses had been imported from Greece. When a pestilence decimated the Romans in 293 BCE, the Books instructed them to send for the healer Asclepius.
During the winter of 218 BCE, a horrendous time for Rome, Romans were terrified because of a large number of prodigies:
1. A baby of six months of age suddenly uttered, "Victoria!"
2. An ox climbed three stories and then jumped.
3. Phantom ships gleamed in the sky. [This one might be of interest to UFO researchers.]
4. The temple of Hope was struck by lightning.
5. A wolf snatched a sentry’s sword.
The situation in Rome grew most precarious the next spring (217 BCE) when Hannibal moved out of his winter quarters to finish his so-far highly successful campaigns against Rome.
That spring in both Italy and Sicily, the heavens gave many warnings. First, the orb of the sun decreased in size. Then it appeared to be colliding with the moon. Then two moons appeared in the daytime sky. Then the sky split apart; through this rift a brilliant light shone, and then the sky appeared to catch fire. Then, in the city of Capua, during a rainstorm, one of these moons fell to earth. The same portent that had signaled the fall of Thebes occurred: a holy spring ran blood.
The Cumaean Sibyl finally ordered the now hysterical populace to go out and sit at the crossroads and to pray to Triple Hecate, and last of all to bring from Asia the Black Stone of Mother Cybele, and then Cybele Herself, as their protectress in this grave emergency.
Despite these records, and despite this long tradition of sanctity, the Cumaean Sibyls were considered fantasy until archaeologists proved their actual existence by discovering sticks and stones, tunnels and slabs of quarried rock, and the cave in which each Sibyl had lived at Cumae.
Roman historian Varro listed ten Sibyls, not by origin, but by place of prophecy: Persian, Libyan, Delphic, Cimmerian (Italian), Erythraean (Ionian?), Samian (Isle of Samos), Cumaean, Phrygian (Trojan), and Tiburtine (Latin).
The first Christian to list the Sibyls was L.C.F. Lactantius (c. 260-340 CE). In his book on holy, religious institutions (Book I, Chapter 6), he lists the Sibyls as follows:
1. Persian (or Chaldean, who answered Alexander the Great)
2. Libyan (Her name was Lamia, meaning Snake or Medusa)
3. Delphic Sibyl (Mount Parnassus in Greece)
4. Cimmerian (Near Lake Avernus; i.e., Cumae)*
5. Erythraean (From Babylon; she predicted the Trojan War)
6. Samian (Isle of Samos, near Hera’s Temple)
7. Cumaean (Sibyls named: Deiphobe, Amalthea, Herophile, Demophile, Taraxandra)
8. Hellespontian (born at Troy during the lifetimes of Solon and Cyrus the Great)
9. Phrygian (Priestess of Cybele who prophesied at Ankara, Turkey)
10. Albanean or Tiburtine (Latin town of Tiburs)
*Since the designation Cimmerian refers to priestesses who lived underground near Lake Avernus, it probably duplicates #7, or refers twice to the Cumaean Sibyls. An oracular shrine dedicated to Apollo, as at Delphi, stood on the Acropolis of Cumae. An underground Roman road ran from the southeastern part of Cumae, through Mount Grillo to the shores of Lake Avernus.
Saint Augustine, who admitted that the Sibyl spoke words received from the Judeo-Christian deity (from God) considered that there had been only one Sibyl. As more research was completed into the matter, the number of Sibyls had, by the Middle Ages, reached twelve. Other oracular centers were found: Colophon, Rhodes, Ephesus, and Sicily.
When they obliged by answering questions, the later priestesses employed several methods, either vocal, in writing, or by arcane signs and symbols. Often, they transcribed their answers onto palm leaves that the wind sometimes picked up and scattered, to the great consternation of the suppliant. [Such is the realm of the oracle -- cannot make it TOO easy!]
Throughout all antiquity, it appears, Cumae was kept sacred, and it was dedicated by the priestesses of the dead to their Queen-Priestess Persephone, who had been abducted by Hades in Sicily.
Archaeologists have found an inscribed gravestone with the message: "Nobody but initiates may be interred here." It has no date, and the Romans had no date for Cumae before 524 BCE. Cumae was destroyed by landing parties from a Saracen fleet in 915 CE.
By the early 1600s, archaeological activity had uncovered valuable treasures in buried statues, cremation tombs, beehive tombs, cellars and other underground structures, vaults, and niches for cinerary urns.
Since 1932, it has been known but not widely or openly admitted that the Cumaean Sibyl once lived and that she, and others of that title, had been High-Priestesses of Rome.
An unidentified early Christian visited the site just after the Sibyl ceased to perform her priestly duties; i.e., before the end of Rome’s Republic and the death of Julius Caesar. This visitor was taken on a tour of the temple at Cumae and was told that the Sibyl had purified herself there. Donning a long, ceremonial robe, she proceeded solemnly to her chamber, seated herself upon a throne, and delivered her oracles. At the end of her chamber was the holier adyton or sacred inner chamber. The Cumaean Sibyl was especially venerated by early Christians not only for her prophetic gift but also because she had specifically prophesied the birth of Christ -- the fact of which most of today's Christians remain unaware.
http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/desdemo2.htm
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There is so much in this that is also in the pages we just read.
pg. 123 the Sibyl scribbled on a leaf.
pg. 124 Phinea says, "Beleiveing that I have done something to anger the gods, perhaps by taking from their natives shrines the records of their mysteries," "I can only assume that the gods smile on my endeavors, especially since I was brought here." "You's be amazed at the traffic in magical secrets practiced in the bazaais of the East-its enough to tarnish one's belief in these religions when so often there's a price attached to their mysteries."
I sort of sat up and took notice when I thought about what effect would it have on the Catholic church if there were the Sibylline Books in the trunk? Would it be "enough to tarnish one's belief" in their Catholic religion?
This is the tip of the iceberg. I have so much more to share. I can see why PISA (Catholic church) would want to fund the trip and have Maria there as their representative. With much more to uncover and reveal, I just wonder if there are to be more murders in our next pages after these? As expected, my head is spinning and I will take a break. Gumtree, our night fairy I can't wait to hear from you, since ther rest of our group is probably sleeping like I should be doing. lol
Ciao for now...............
P.S. In the article Pedln provided a link to, Carol said this:
"The Night Villa" is set in Italy in the shadow of Mt. Vesuvius. The plot follows a team of researchers and academics in search of ancient scrolls that might hold a secret that will change the way historians view religion.
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Ginny The red poppy (Papaver Rhoeas) which we call the Flanders Field poppy and may grow in our gardens , is NOT the opium poppy. Cultivation of the opium one, (Papava Somniferum) is banned for obvious reasons. - pity because it is so beautiful...
Here's something on the effects of opium from the 19th century - written by Thomas de Quincey in his Confessions of an English Opium Eater
I was stared at, hooted at, grinned at, chattered at, by monkeys, by paroquets, by cockatoos. I ran into pagodas, and was fixed, for centuries at the summit, or in secret rooms: I was the idol; I was the priest; I was worshipped; I was sacrificed. I fled from the wrath of Brama through all the forests of Asia; Vishnu hated me; Seva laid wait for me. I came suddenly upon Isis and Osiris: I had done a deed, they said which the ibis and the crocodile trembled at. I was buried for a thousand years, in stone coffins, with mummies and sphinxes, in narrow chambers at the heart of eternal pyramids. I was kissed with cancerous kisses, by crocodiles; and laid, confounded with all untellerable slimy things, amongst reeds and Nilotic mud
If that's the result of taking opium I'll give it a miss - I have trouble enough with my artwork 'parallel existence' to want any others.
- So many great writers experimented with opium and as a result we have some of the finest literature in the English language - and in other languages as well - think of the poem, Kubla Khan written under the influence of drugs - I learned it by heart at school and will never forget the words....though punctuation and line breaks are now just a guess -
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure dome decree
Where Alph, the sacred river
Ran, through caverns measureless to man... etc
I guess that poem would bring back memories for many.
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There is so much happening in the second section. Both levels of story have things going on. Not sure which is the most important to me. Agnes strikes me more and more as a person who is hiding things. She also is more independent all of a sudden. I thought Sophia had come to be a translater, but Agnes seems to handle much more of that. Maria is a NUN??? What a terrible human being. She makes no sense as someone from a religious background. Ely pops up more and more. Its going to take me all week to figure out what I feel about everyone.
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Ginny asked ~ Who would you cast in the parts [in a movie]? Who do you see as Simon, John Lyros, Elgin and Sophie particularly?
What fun! I often do this when I read novels.
I'm sure many of you will disagree with me:
Sophie: Meryl Streep. I just watched Devil Wears Prada, so have her on my mind
Elgin: George Clooney. Not sure whether he'd be the correct age for this part
J. Lyros: Patrick Stuart, with hair! anyone see him with hair as a villain in I Claudius?
Simon: T.J. Thyne, that cute young scientist on Bones who wants to marry Angela
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Good point, GINNY. When children are belittled constantly growing up, it's more commonfor them to develop a very low self esteem. Others become determined to prove the predictions wrong. Perhaps it made a difference here that there was a mother who, for all her weaknesses, did not denigrate her like her grandparents did. It enabled her to see that her grandparents could be wrong.
BELLEMARIE, sorry, I must have missed the earlier post. Thanks for the clarification. And I love the story of the Cumaean sibyl and King Tarquin.
Oh, yeah, GUM. When is comes to eerie poetry, these lines from that same
'Xanadu'take the prize as far as I'm concerned.
That with music loud and long,
I would build that dome in air,
That sunny dome ! those caves of ice !
And all who heard should see them there,
And all should cry, Beware ! Beware !
His flashing eyes, his floating hair !
Weave a circle round him thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honey-dew hath fed,
And drunk the milk of Paradise.
Here is the opium poppy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_poppy
I agree about Maria, STEPH. Something is just not right with that one
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Pedln, I agree that the legalese is a little daunting in spots. The answer to your question about the meaning of vadimonium is on p155 of the link I provided. Of course the whole explanation is much more detail than this but briefly is this. If the parties involved in a lawsuit must reappear in court at a later date, the vadimonium is a promise to return at the specified date. If they do not, they are subject to a fine.
Things certainly appear to be getting sinister, are they not? I get the distinct feeling that Sophie is being set up.
On the Opium poppies. My best friend told me that his grandmother had some beautiful poppies growing in her yard once upon a time. They(the Feds?) came along and ripped them out saying they were opium poppies. I didn't ask when this happened, but got the impression that he had seen the poppies. Since his family moved when he was around eight, I assume that this happened in the late 40s. Maybe they were, maybe not. It reminds me of the time in the 60s when the local cops ripped up someone's potted tomato plants claiming they were marijuana.
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Steph...
Agnes strikes me more and more as a person who is hiding things. She also is more independent all of a sudden. I thought Sophia had come to be a translater, but Agnes seems to handle much more of that.
That is why I thought Agnes was enticing Sophie to come, and knew she was up in the middle of the night. There is more to her than meets the eye. Amazing how Agnes seems to have become the lead in these pages and Sophie takes a back seat following her around. How did Agnes know so much about the swim place? Agnes knows way too much to fit into the character the narrator placed her as in Sophie's office the first day. And what is up with the mention of the drugs and rape? Agnes seemed to personally internalize with what Simon said about the drugs and sex. "Date rape and ruffies" hmmmm Could Dale have done this to Agnes?
I'm not so sure if Maria is a nun, but she is there to represent the church for sure.
Mippy, yes I think it is a lot of fun casting actor/actresses in book characters. Let me take a stab at it.
Elgin......Richard Gere....handsome, intelligent, trusting.
John.....Tom Hanks....Experienced, leader, perfect in Angels and Demons and The Da Vinci Code
Ely........Tom Cruise....Handsome, adventurous, mysterious, ends up with the woman.
Agnes...Reese Witherspoon...Youthful, good/bad girl, southern girl.
Sophie..Julia Roberts...perfect movies to compare this to...Sleeping with the enemy, Mona Lisa Smile, ends up with the leading hero.
Simon...Leonardo De Caprio...Young, cute, humorous
George...Ryan Phillippi...Young, dependable, cute
Phinea...Johnny Dep.....need I say more?
Maria...Penelope Cruz...Latin-Catholic image, fiesty, demure
Okay, I got my popcorn and milk duds, all my favorite lead actors/actressess, let's go to the movies!!!
Ciao for now...............................
My screen is jumping again.
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BabiH'm yes, Coleridge's Kubla Khan really is an enigma...the words bring all sorts of images to the mind. Didn't he call it something like 'a vision in a dream' ? When I was a kid I wondered about that 'damsel with a dulcimer' - It's a long time since I've thought of about it at all - now I have to go and look it out, maybeeven read a commentary...
FrybabeI can relate to your friend's poppy story. My neighbour still has the opium poppies come up in odd corners of her large garden. She grew them until it became illegal to do so here but of course the self-sown seeds are still around all these years later. If they come up in a secluded part of her garden she lets them grow and bloom but doesn't let them seed. Those that can be seen she lifts out and puts them somewhere else - they're really lovely.
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Ginny The red poppy (Papaver Rhoeas) which we call the Flanders Field poppy and may grow in our gardens , is NOT the opium poppy. Cultivation of the opium one, (Papava Somniferum) is banned for obvious reasons. - pity because it is so beautiful...
Ahh, not banned in gardens in Berkeley, California. There are some beautiful ones blooming right this minute in my neighbor's garden. And in other gardens all over Berkeley and no one, least of all the cops, seems to mind. They're gorgeous.
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gum: the flanders poppy is that the same as our california poppy which literally coverss the hills along with lupin which is dark blue and purple. gorgeous fo a few weeks here. But I love what they call here the french poppy. is that the illegal one?
now about those movie stars all are perfect except tom cruise who doesn't look jewish enough, but you can never tell I guess. ethicc appeaances don't tell the story anymore although I thik a real boo boo was gregory peck in GENELEMANS AGREEMENT. a good italian actor like Robert de niro would do only he's too old now. senior moment but I'm trying for the guy in the rainman. . .he would do as I remember that Ely is slight and small? I wondered why our tall heroine found him romantic.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week 2: Through Chapter 16:
The Game's Afoot!
1. What an exciting section! So many clues, so many mysteries!! What do you want to talk about first?
2. Who do you think was in the blue and white sailboat?
3. What cult do you think Iusta belongs to?
4. What is the meaning of the three squares, first at the table and then in the mail? Who do you think is sending them?
5. What do you think is Maria's real interest in the project?
6. How many themes of rebirth and resurrection are there in this section?
7. Can you shed some light on any of the following?
----Parthenope
----Agrai Mysteries
----Oxyrhynchus Project
----Petronii
----The Sibyl of Cumae
----Isis/ Apuleius
----Wilhelmina Jashemski
8. This would make a great movie. Who would you cast in the parts? Who do you see as Simon, John Lyros, Elgin and Sophie particularly?
9. How would you characterize the atmosphere on Capri?
10. What do you think John Lyros is actually after?
11. What did you like best in this section?
12. "We're all hungry for ritual, to experience something beyond the banality of everyday life, to stand outside of ourselves..." (Simon on page 150). When you think about it, who in this book is NOT in this condition? Why?
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The Rape of Persephone
Bernini 1621-24.
Rome (Villa Borghese)
Schedule
Chapters 10-16 for June 8 - 14
Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22
Chapters 25-End for June 23 - 30
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
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Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/villaweber1.jpg)
Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.
New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!
Andrea, enjoy the beach!! We'll miss you but I know you are fomenting tons of thoughts for the discussion.
Well, like McArthur, I have returned and must confess I hadn’t the time to foment much of anything, much less my thoughts. It has taken me all morning to read these studious posts and have many comments to make from the past 4 days. I am however going to begin by focusing on the most recent comments on this page.
Stephanie says: I still have problems with the fact that from the very first page, Eli was on her mind. Had he stayed on her mind for however long it had been?? She obviously has strong emotions still. No idea why, since he sounds like a first class creep.
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That surprised me as I have never seen him as a first class creep; a little strange maybe as he became more deeply involved in the Tetratrys cult but she truly loved him. They shared many things including the drownings of their close family members, the death of their child and their love. He just got enamoured and fascinated with this crazy cult and lost a piece of himself.
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Winsumm I think the Flanders Fields poppy and the French poppy are one and the same; they're a lovely clear red- - the Welsh poppy is a blue poppy and also lovely...but there are so many varieties it hard to know which is which - and they seem to crossbreed and produce good seed which doesn't help in identifying them.
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Isn't this just the most fabulous section? Talk about a Disney ride, my head was literally spinning. Where to START? Who do you trust now?
I love the conceit here and I love what she did, and I actually gasped, did she have THREE parallels going here at one point? Just good fun!
Very very clever.
On the poppies, they are all over Rome, and also Pompeii and last year there were men picking them, in somewhat dangerous circumstances, on top of a wall with a steep slope from the top of it, with grins, it stopped me. But I understood that the opium poppy was full like a peony, not single like the ones I saw in Pompeii or here in Rome: (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Romanforumruins.jpg)
So what would the OPIUM poppy really look like? Is this one? Wikipedia is no help they say it's full and then show a red and a white single.
On the Sibyl of Cumae, great stuff bellamarie! I love the story of the Sibylline Books! Don't mess with the Sibyl.
My favorite story from the Satyricon is that Apollo was going to grant her a wish, if she'd take him as a lover, and she asked for as many years of life as there were grains of sand in a pile of sweepings where they were. She forgot to ask for eternal youth, however, and the grains numbered 1,000, and so she hung in a bottle, withered and sere, for 900 years, and when children asked her what she wanted she replied, "I want to die."
Quite a lot of variations in the tales of the Sibyl, but all fantastically interesting.
Here is the entrance to her cave through the sacred groves:
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/aeneas/Cumaeapproach34.jpg)
And here is the inside of the "cave" which, because of its precision, is thought to be something else entirely. But the area is evocative and in some places spooky.
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/aeneas/Cumaesybil%27scaveinterior3.jpg)
It's always a shock to realize that Michelangelo painted 5 Sibyls in the Sistine Chapel!!
Here's his conception of our girl, the Cumean Sibyl:
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/aeneas/Cumaeansibylsistinechapel.jpg)
I guess that was pre hanging in a bottle.
And here's his view of the Delphic Sibyl.
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/aeneas/delphicsybyidetaiil.jpg)
The Vatican website explains why they are there:
http://mv.vatican.va/3_EN/pages/CSN/CSN_Volta_SibProf.html
Welcome back, Andrea!!
Now if I could only spell Sibyl! :) What about those CARDS? Who is sending them? What do the symbols mean ON them? Whoopee the game's afoot. I love this section.
Lots more to say here, yes Pedln, Margie is right and you were too on the vadimonium: good one! We might need to review the facts and the fiction here, Justa did not lose her case to Calatoria in real life but she does in the book, that's another Real or Fiction entry for our page in the heading. Anybody else got the Deiss?
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My last remarks on Poppies. (I could get carried away on the subject)
When I lived in Israel the hills were covered in large red Poppies from March to May. In America it is known as the Corn Poppy and its latin name is papaver subspiriforme.It is a large , gorgous red flower.
Of course I remember Kubla Khan but for me the poem," In Flanders Fields' by Joel McCrae has been an all time favorite. I even went to Flanders to see the poppies growing among the thousands of Soldier's crosses marking the places of the dead soldiers.
We had to learn it by heart in school. Did anyone else? Remember how it starts?
In Flanders Fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row
and it ends:
We shall not sleep though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
I promise to stick to the real questions from here on out.
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Ginny, what a great job you and Pat did with this heading, I love it.
Frybaby- How interesting is this crazy court case of Iusta's?
I've spent the better part of an hour sifting through the link that you provided, describing the 18 pages of evidence and the controversy that followed the suit.
It is my understanding, according to a source that Ginny quoted (Guiess or Deiss?) that Vesuvius erupted prior to the ordered appearance in court.
If the parties involved in a lawsuit must reappear in court at a later date, the vadimonium is a promise to return at the specified date. If they do not, they are subject to a fine.
After the eruption of Vesuvius and the ultimate death of said parties, it matters not, right?
Who knows? Remember we must keep in mind that this is a book of fiction culminating from a few known facts (and in our case some questionable facts.)
I believe that there were two lawsuits involved, the first being between Vitalis, Iusta's mother and Gaius. The result of that case was that she was granted her freedom but Calatoria the wife of Gaius demanded that Iusta be returned to the household. she claimed to want compensation for the child. She certainly could not admit to wanting the property that she might inherit.
Mippy and BellaMarie have cast their votes for the audition. ;D
Winsumm, I think Tom Cruise is the guy you're trying to remember from Rainman and I agree with that choice 100%.
I find all of your choices interesting, particularly Julia Roberts. If she would accept that role, my husband would even agree to attend the movie with me.[/color]
My computer has been acting weird so I'll post this and come right back with another thought.
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winsummm...
now about those movie stars all are perfect except tom cruise who doesn't look jewish enough, but you can never tell I guess. ethicc appeaances don't tell the story anymore although I thik a real boo boo was gregory peck in GENELEMANS AGREEMENT. a good italian actor like Robert de niro would do only he's too old now. senior moment but I'm trying for the guy in the rainman. . .he would do as I remember that Ely is slight and small? I wondered why our tall heroine found him romantic.
Oh winsummm...My favorite actor of all is Tom Cruise, he is full of mystery, romance and adventure. If he can pull of a German-Nazi in the Valykerie and the very mysterious dark character in Eyes Wide Shut, change into characters in Mission Impossible...he can pull off Ely. And he isn't very tall either.
If you are thinking Dustin Hoffman in Rainman, I think he is too old also. Seems our book of characters are ranging in the early 20's - possibly early 40's if we can go by the amount of schooling they have completed and their descriptions. I have to tell you, I had the wrong actor for Simon, I was thinking of the movie "The Talented Mr. Ripley" with Jude law and Matt Damon, who were gay, Leonardo did not play in that movie. My suspicions are Simon is a homosexual along, John Lyros and others. That's the reason for all the jealous looks....lolol
And now that I have opened that can of worms, or as Ginny would say, the Elephant in the room.....I have to share this research I found.
I went searching for anything on our dear Count Jacques d' Adelsward Fersen.
This site: http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/guide_pey.htm
lead me to this article which we learn about Count Jacques ' Adelsward de Fersen being homsexual.
I must say when going on a search in that area, I advise some caution. lolol I will put in paragraphs from the article but not all of it since it is quite lengthy. Feel free to go read it in its entirety.
The Importance of Being Peyrefitte
By Roger Moody
The Guide (Boston, Massachusetts) May 2002
Now here's a coincidence - in November 2000, the 93-year-old Roger Peyrefitte died in France - a century to the very month that Oscar Wilde threw off his own mortal coils in that same country. Both were inveterate gossipers, raconteurs, and poseurs. Men of noted sartorial elegance, adherents of the good life, they strutted the streets and the salons of respectable society, firing fusillades of sometimes dubious taste and egotistical bon mots (Oscar declared nothing but his genius; Roger claimed he was one of only two true humanists left in France). They were both bisexuals who advocated passionate romantic relationships between older and younger males, while often pursuing their partners in the gutter - and getting caught.
But here the comparison fades. While Oscar claimed to have put his genius into his life, Roger spent 50 years painstakingly inscribing his into books. During Wilde's lifetime, the "love that dare not speak its name" was almost exactly that. In contrast Peyrefitte trumpeted it from the Parisian rooftops. From there, he swooped down Zeus-like on often-willing Ganymedes, gathering them from the hillsides of Greece, Taormina, and La Touraine, the dingy cinemas of Naples, Rome, and Paris, and the beaches and squares of colonized north Africa. Surprisingly, Peyrefitte never ended up in court on either sex or libel charges, though he was several times arrested. On such occasions, he would shamelessly flash his credentials as an ex-diplomat, or drop evocative names (a distant cousin was the Gaullist minister of Education, Alain Peyrfitte).
With the publication in 1944 of his first book Special Friendships, Peyrefitte at 37 became an overnight sensation, winning the prestigious Prix Theophraste-Renaudoux, and just missing the Prix Goncourt itself. This eloquent and gripping account of the passion between an older and younger schoolboy - violently thwarted by the creepy Father de Trennes, himself secretly in lust for the younger 13-year-old - has surely never been bettered, though scores have tried. Friendships was based on his Peyrefitte's own experiences at a Catholic college, and triangular, intergenerational emotional relationships were to become the template for some of his most affecting output.
From the early 1950s until the '70s, Roger mercilessly trounced or satirized, in turn, the old French royal family (The Prince's Person), lubricious, scheming Catholic clergy (The Keys of Saint Peter), the freemasons (Les fils de la lumiere) and the diplomatic corps (Les Ambassades and La Fin des Ambassades). Both anti-semitism and J. Paul Getty were targeted in The Jews, followed by the French nation as a whole (Des Francais) and then the USA (Ironically Les Americains was the only work for which he had to issue a public apology thanks to libel action by that formidable gay icon, Marlene Dietrich).
Meanwhile, Peyrefitte was also crafting slimmer, somewhat less tendentious, profiles of then little-known homosexual personages. He claimed - with some justification - to have rediscovered the erotic photography of Baron von Gloeden (Les Amours Singulieres published in 1949). He also brought to wide public attention the escapades of another Mediterranean sexual refugee, Count Jacques Adelsward de Fersen, the "Exile of Capri."
Before he turned 70, Peyrefitte had established himself as one of Europe's leading literary hitmen. In particular there seemed no limit to his gay "outings." These included a Vatican-load of popes and cardinals, the famous Club Mediteranee (who but Peyrefittee would dare reveal that this was originally a group of boy-loving "sex tourists"?) and numerous closeted contemporaries.
For more than 30 years, Roger turned his pen to recycling almost any "revelation." Some proved sound, but others were little more than "purple pap."
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Can you imagine if Phinea's trunk held scrolls outing famous royalty and clergy as far back as his ages? Whoa.... I can see why Maria is there with such disdain and interest. This plot thickens and has more twists and turns then I can keep up with. I am beginning to feel like Linda Blair in "The Excorsist."
And talk about "tarnishing one's belief in their religions" how about royalty, governments, etc. etc. I wonder it the Sibylline Books has any of this in them?
Ciao for now..........
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QUESTION FOR CAROL
Thank you, Carol, for all those answers. Those of us who don't write novels are always interested in how the mind of the writer works--at least I am. Your editor must be helpful to you what with making sure that you tie up important ends!
Q. for Carol: How much preparatory reading do you do for your novels? I imagine it varies with different books, but am curious especially about this one.
Okay, I think I finally figured out how to reply to each individual question! I'm awed by the depth of the reading you guys have done ... as for the reading I do when I'm preparing ...
Yes, I do a lot for each book and I think I did the most for this one. I read up on Pompeii and Herculaneum, of course. HERCULANEUM: ITALY'S BURIED TREASURE by Joseph Jay Deiss, was one of my favorite sources, and Wilhemina Jashemski's book on the gardens of Pompeii and Herculaneum was invaluable and inspired Lee's poem that Sophie supposedly writes to Elgin. I read about ancient mystery cults and Pythagoreanism (Lee has been researching Pythagoras for years so I borrowed a lot of his books) and Neapolitan mythology and folklore. An earlier post mentioned Ovid so I should say that I've kept THE METAMORPHOSES next to my desk since I wrote LAKE OF DEAD LANGUAGES and have often used it as a source of allusion and inspiration. Oh, and I also remember that I read a number of Stephen Saylor's mystery novels set in ancient Rome. He's my stepdaughter Nora's favorite author and I think he does the Roman time period wonderfully. There's probably a lot else that I'm forgetting right now. Reading for research is one of my favorite parts of being a writer. It gives me an excuse to become totally obsessed with a subject and know it's all for a reason. I think it's the part of me that sort of still wishes I'd gone on to get a Ph D, but in a way I think this is more fun, because I get to obsess about one subject or time period for a year or so and then move on to something a little different. Since my novels often use similar themes of mythology and folklore, though, I find that the research for one often sets up the reading for the next book.
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Steph, don't count Ely out as a creep too soon. My suspicions after reading these pages tell me he is the person helping Elgin uncover the cult. Ely had to become a member in order to get close inside to find out what really is going on. I suspect my hero and heroine Tom/Ely and Julia/Sophie will have their happily ever after.
Now if I can only figure out Agnes's role. I pretty much have everyone else figured out. At least I think.... :o This would make a terrific movie.
Welcome back Andrea, we truly missed you. I have a feeling you will be all caught up in no time.
Ciao for now................
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Jude, you jump in here with anything at all you wish to post.
Ginny, holy smokes those pictures are amazing and the Sibylinne story- yuk, how awful! Granted 1000 years and forgetting to ask for eternal life while you hang around in a bottle. EWWWWWWWWWWW
Be careful what you wish for, huh?
Babi- When children are belittled constantly growing up, it's more common for them to develop a very low self esteem. Others become determined to prove the predictions wrong. Perhaps it made a difference here that there was a mother who, for all her weaknesses, did not denigrate her like her grandparents did. It enabled her to see that her grandparents could be wrong.
Sophie was a blameless child who had been abandoned and orphaned at an early age and was fortunate enough to have the love and support of her aunt M'Lou who adored her, offering advice and council. this allowed her to perceive her own righteousness and worth. M'Lou excelled at offering meaningful praise and recognition in spite of those detestable grandparents. She commuted from her nursing job to tend to Sophie so that she wouldn't have to "absorb the brunt of the grandparent's expectatins and regrets alone."
I think that is why she has been added as a character in our story. She gives credibility to Sophie's affectionate and kindhearted nature.
I personally like Sophie. I think that she shows true grit and determination. Against all odds, she persevered and remained steadfast. Was she foolish to agree to travel to Rome when she barely could breath? Yep, but if I were in her shoes, I know dang well I would have agreed as well. Let us not forget that ANOXIA plays a roll in her delerium as well. Her oxygen levels have been depleted, resulting in the brain cells not getting the required amount of O2 delivery and causing her to do some ghastly and dreadful things. Also the combination of drugs for pain in her system would be instrumental in her mental confusion.
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SPOILER ALERT -DO NOT READ NOW IF YOU HAVE NOT READ TO THE END.
QUESTION FOR CAROL
I love the interesting dialog and the very many imaginative details that are included in the novel.
Carol, I'm wondering how you create the characters in your book. Do you imagine them in some detail as real people and then decide what they might do or say or do you create their words and actions more as they relate to events in the plot? Or...?
I like to think that the characters become organic enough that I'm not pushing them around to fill a place in the plot, but following what a person like that would be likely to do or say next. At least for the more important characters. Certainly some of the characters in this book surprised me. For instance, I had no idea that Agnes was the villain until Sophie was down in the pit and Agnes closed the stone over her! In fact, Agnes was originally somewhat styled after my beloved step-daughter, so I had no idea she was BAD! After I decided that Agnes was in league with Ely I thought I'd have to go back and make a lot of changes to prepare the reader for that, but when I went back I found that oddly enough there were a lot of "clues" to Agnes's more sinister personality already in the book, as if I'd always known she was up to no good!
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Carol, bless you, there you are. Remember if you get stumped with our wonderful site here, Ginny, Marcie or I am here for the asking. Please feel comfortable enough to ask us for what ever you might need.
I love this: Since my novels often use similar themes of mythology and folklore, though, I find that the research for one often sets up the reading for the next book.
Now I must inquire, what IS the title of the next one and what will it be about?
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Frybabe, (Margie) that is so interesting about Pythagoras. That's quite interesting: One of the points the book makes is that what we know as the Pythagora's Theorum was actually in use in Mesopotamia a thousand years before Pythagoras came along. And the secret mysterious society, I heard an interesting lecture once at a convention on the Persephone myth, how it predates the Greeks and is in several other cultures, some quite strange, all dealing with the seasons and rebirth.
Rebirth or the rituals associated with it I have a feeling is going to be a theme here.
It's surprising to many to learn that worship of the god Serapis, (who was made up to combine Egyptian and Greek mythology by Ptolemy I) which was popular with the Romans contained resurrection, but not in the way we think of it.
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Andrea, enjoy the beach!! We'll miss you but I know you are fomenting tons of thoughts for the discussion!
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Stephanie, two great points! You mentioned she seems to feel that something got left out for her.
What a good point, I missed that. Now that alone would be a powerful motivation, to me. That and constantly being told you're just like your mother (who drowned). How would one react to that daily? I don't think people drown on purpose, do they? Of course there's Virginia Woolf. I need to reread that bit.
And then this, the other Elephant in the Living Room: but have never been shot and that may change how you look at things.
You're right, I have not either. Has anybody here been shot? I am not sure how it would make you feel, I know my recent broken leg has brought up a LOT of strange little unworthy thoughts I did not know were there.
The SHOOTING is another Elephant in the Living Room here. I was shocked, never saw it coming but in our day it seems to be in the news daily. When you read a book tho, you (do you?) tend to imbue it with your own persona, I doubt any of us have shot anybody. Or even thought about it.
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And bellamarie brought up abandonment. I did not see that and you're right, it's all OVER the thing. Many many themes, such an innocent looking fast reading book. Many many themes. Well worth the discussion (and some books are not!)
Bellamarie said: Elgin critiquing her thesis..... "You've romanticized your subject," Elgin had commented on the first draft of my thesis, in which I argued that Vitalis and Iusta represented early feminists. "And over identified with them."
Ok now I am beginning to see what you all are saying. I don't understand his point here, surely anybody would be interested in this rare court case which has been preserved and which nobody knows the outcome of? He's coming across here as an unfeeling chauvinist.
Right? or?
I love that question for Carol, Marcie, and since I can't figure out the answer to her answer I must ask:
Carol: What do you mean in reference to Sophie's cutting the grass after her recovery, "Sophie’s not supernatural, she’s just a TEXAN!" What is a TEXAN for those of us who have only ridden thru once or twice or been to Riverwalk?
Okay I was just being silly when I said Sophie was a Texan--in other words, that she's tough enough to mow a lawn after lung surgery. I lived in Texas for seven years--and my daughter was born there--so I have a lot of fondness for the state and for the native's sense of self-sufficiency and pioneer spirit. And it was the best answer I could come up with.
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Thank you Bellamarie- I really love it that I have been missed! What a wonderful trip with my "circle of buddies."
Carol- that is a hoot! It was the best answer you could come up with??? I have an EX husband who lives in Texas, so I could add a comment or two to your answer. ::)
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QUESTION FOR CAROL
Have you ever noticed when you're reading a book, suddenly there are references to what's in it everywhere?
I'm reading No Touch Monkey by Ayun Halliday, about her travels, this time in Bali. It's non fiction, I don't like to read fiction when we're discussing fiction, so I don't get mixed up any more than normal. That would make a good question for Carol, actually:
Carol: when you are writing a book are you able to simultaneously read the fiction of others? What authors have inspired you?
Anyway, here we are with Ayun Halliday in Bangkok, getting visas for Cambodia, and she says:
She was grateful we hadn't followed Danny to one of those Thai islands were backpackers converged to reenact The Bacchae every full moon.
There are the Bacchae again!!! Can you believe that? Small world. (I never knew backpacking thru Europe was such a nasty dirty experience, but I don't think anybody would take it up after reading her book. Somebody must have scared her about soap and water…she's patently quite proud of being filthy, but I digress). :)
Actually once at Stonehenge at obviously the wrong time of the year I encountered a whole MOB, and I mean MOB of…er…pilgrims to the site, it was some kind of phase of the moon or something...best avoided if possible. This is before they shut off the site and made people pay entry and so forth.
Yes, I do read fiction while I'm writing. I know there are authors who say they can't and that they give up reading fiction while working on a book, but since I am ALWAYS working on a book I'd have to give up fiction for quite some time and it's one of the joys of my life to read fiction. And I read so much that I hope that no one book influences my style too much ... or if it does, I just hope it influences me to write better.
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QUESTION FOR CAROL
Pedln...Did Elgin put the cart before the horse? Did he tell John L. that Dr. Chase, an authority on the lost document of G. Petronius, would now be part of the project? And now he has to persuade Sophie? Probably hogwash, but I just don’t trust Elgin. I think Sophie’s reasons for not going originally, are legitimate.
Nope...I don't think so, I think John Lyros's mission after his 5 yrs of initiation and silence was to fund this trip.
So we have a ton of puzzle pieces here, BUT we have NO box top to show us the puzzle. Or as Ginny keeps saying, "The elephant in the room."
What does this cult want with the scrolls in the Villa de Notte? Some times you have to clear the clutter in order to see the floor. There are a lot of smoke and mirrors I think in these 112 pages. But then how could we solve the entire mystery, with only one fourth of the pages of clues? I'll reserve the right to my suspicions till later.
Ciao for now.................
Carol, can I ask if any of my list of clues and connections make any sense at all?
Hm ... it actually hadn't occurred to me that Elgin promised that Sophie would be part of the crew before the shooting ... but I wouldn't put it past him.
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bellamarie- I put a SPOILER Alert at the top of Carol's post. We have all agreed to not discuss anything past our assigned pages. :P
We will have to pretend that we DO NOT know anything about anyone past that page.
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Carol, Andrea.... I did not see the part before I read the spoiler and I read it and said.............OH NO!!!!!!
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Andrea, OOOPS.... so sorry, as you can see I did not see Spoiler until I went back after my posting. My lips are sealed. ;) I thought YOUR postings were Carol actually on at the same time as me. I am doing two things at one time and wasn't paying close attention.
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Andrea...
My computer has been acting weird so I'll post this and come right back with another thought.
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HELP! HELP!
I have been having a lot of problems with my brand new laptop computer when I am posting on here. When I use my old computer it is fine. Is anyone else having any problems when they post here? I try to highlight a group of words or sentences and my cursor jumps to a different spot. It will not stay in the place I put it. Also, the line I am typing won't stay to where I can see the text. It is like a row below.
I am thinking of calling Best Buy and asking them if its my computer, but if others are experiencing this same problem, then maybe its the site.
PLEASE REPLY!!!!
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Actually, I think the threee of us were posting at the same time. ::)
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Andrea...I removed my post that commented to Carol's spoiler so hopefully its just you and Carol who saw it. ::)
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bellamarie- no problem, thank you. :-*
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Welcome back, Andy. Hope you had a lovely time at the beach. bellamarie--I didn't see your post, whatever it was. So it's all good. We need to be careful about the questions we ask I guess. I'll have some comments on this section later, but at the moment I have dogs that need my attention. It's always something.
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Maryal-- It really is a DOG eat DOG world, is it not? ::) I had a great time, thanks.
I love this shadowy figure Goddess Night, Nox, (doesn't that sound like a stop over on American Airlines?), with the stars in her veil, the owl on her shoulder and the poppies in her hair, siting at the center of the fountain when Sophie looks out in her delerium.
More often, Nox lurks in the background of other cults, I found from a Google reference.
goddessNight (http://"http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Nyx.html")
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Oh cool! How about Parthenope (the institute's boat-) who was also the Greek siren who threw herself into the sea and washed up in Naples?
Bellemaria- I think that my computer was acting up because of all of the pictures that I downloaded on it when I returned from the Island.
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Thank you so much Carol!! I can see we need (I do) to put our questions in posts by themselves, bless your heart!
I have to be off a good bit of tomorrow, so please excuse the exuberance tonight! hahaha
Good one on the Parthenope, Andrea!!
Bellamarie, it's not happening to me or anybody else I know, it may be some setting on your laptop which has been tagged. They can drive you nuts till you get them right, I never will forget screaming about how my words kept disappearing. Good luck!!
That's a good question, Frybabe, on the name Themis. The Deiss book gives her maiden name as Calatoria Temidis, but is more concerned with the derivation of Calatoria since she herself had been a former slave. Apparently Themis was a name attached to her as well. Themis was a woman's name, and get this: it means the goddess of justice and of prophecy. Take THAT! Hahahaa
I don't have a clue, this is not a very well known or understood case. It's possible this was a name she liked and took for herself when her husband died.
I think the article you posted does make clear that the impetus was really property and money, not the girl herself. But in our book here, it's the girl!
Pedln, Margie's link seems to go more into the various kinds of vadimonia (all interesting) than the application here, but normally a vadimonium was "a promise secured by bail for appearance on a particular day before a tribunal. Also, bail, security, recognizance." (Lewis and Short Latin Dictionary).
I love this section of the book! I don't know who to trust and the allusions fly thick and fast. It IS exciting!
Now I'm not sure on the FBI locating protected witnesses in Sorrento, if they are we all need to be protected witnesses, it's a paradise on earth. Hahahaa Did you understand why they would want the witness there and what THEIR (the FBI's !! ) interest might be and who this witness was and what HE or SHE was doing there? What on earth do they all want with this treasure chest?
AND we have the image of the girl in the fresco opening a chest too, so many parallels.
This is a fabulous section, I can't get over it.
Parallels with the original Villa dei Papiri (see heading), and the fictional Villa della Notte, which is both at Herculaneum in the book and reproduced on Capri by John Lyros who is beginning to scare me! What on earth IS he after? Oh come on, build a replica of the Villa Della Notte (the fictional Villa dei Papyri) on Capri? How many years and billions did that take? The Italians are marvelous workers but speed is not their goal. Look how long it took to build the structure over the Ara Pacis, years and years. Of course he may have been working on it years and years, maybe 5 years?? Something is not right with yon John with the violet eyes and the 5 year gap in his resume.
The script of Phineas Aulus here, speaker from 2000 years ago, is fascinating and totally false: it's a wonderful figment of Carol's imagination.
Agnes is a little insensitive I think on page 167, "If you don't mind diving, we can go through the opening underwater." (Does she know that Sophie's mother died in a drowning accident? I bet she does). She does know she lacks half a lung. Hmmm on sweet Agnes here.
Agnes says that John Lyros "wanted you to feel like the events in Phineas's book are happening here, now…" er….ah…..really? ER...huh? It appears that something decidedly unpleasant is about to happen, I love the atmosphere in this section. I'd run like a rabbit.
I absolutely loved this one: "You know," I say, "I think this sauce is probably a lot like the Roman garum that Phineas says he ate his first night here (another parallel)—I mean his first night at the Villa della Notte."
Garum is rotten fish guts. Emphasis on rotten. Really nasty. Well fermented. Much prized. Hahaaa Famous in antiquity to disguise the food. Supposedly there's nothing in the modern world like it except one kind of similar sauce in Vietnam cooking. Wonder why ol Violet Eyes is serving a garum duplicate? Doggone if I'd eat the food.
Now here I wondered, "If the shipwreck was intentional, it means Phineas's crew were sacrificed on purpose."
Who would sacrifice the crew and why?
We've got no end of plots here moving inexorably forward! And just when your head is spinning, we have illustrations on page 127 which sound an awful lot in theme like the ones from the Villa of the Mysteries (those are the only ones I know by that description) which are in Pompeii. I just LOVE the creativity here.
So what do you think? What is our Phineas thinking he's in for here and what do YOU think he's in for? And Sophie has the same room! By the way some scholars say the word "rape" as in rape of Persephone, actually means carrying off, ( to carry off by force) (from the verb rapio), not what we conceive of it as.
Speaking of Latin, here's the opium poppy http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/poison/Papavso.htm from North Carolina State where apparently it grows wild with enlargeable photos, so much for Wikipedia! The name, Papaver somniferum, means sleep bearing (somni--ferum) seed or poppy head. It's poisonous!
Whoopee, the game's afoot! But who can we trust if anybody? I don't trust any of them at all, I'd go home, but I'm a chicken.
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I really have loved the poems you've brought, the Xanadu, my favorite poet, who himself sometimes (did he not, Deems will know) write under the influence, and In Flander's Fields. The last time we were in Belgium (I'm beginning to sound like Rick Steves, sorry) we took a personal tour guide he recommended and of course I wanted to see Flander's Fields and the poppies, but he said they occur where the land has been recently turned over and I didn't see any until we went to Rome where I found them among immovable 2,000 year old stones, go figure. :) I think he would rather we go and see a local farmer, who WAS charming.
As Stephanie says it's going to take a week to sort out, all these people seem (to me, is it just me?) to be changing. Metamorphosing (is that a word? Spell Check likes it better than what I originally put)??
Lyros is the creepy one. Maybe Elgin is in over his head. Does Elgin know Lyros is a creep? Why does Lyros want to reproduce as closely as possible what happened?
Why is Sophie in the same room the fictional Phineas occupied? Is SHE supposed to have some part in the goings on? I would be SO out of there. And I'm on my third read of this book, but it's a magic book, it keeps changing, you have to watch out for the twists and turns! hahahaa
More what's real and what is not: on page 140 Justa loses her suit to Calatoria, that did not happen in real life, as Andrea said Vesuvius erupted while the judges apparently took it in advisement but the "what ifs" here are delicious to contemplate.
Oh and here's Simon, another mad scientist? (How can you all see him so young? I see Boris Karloff as Simon). Anyway he says, "We're all hungry for ritual, to experience something beyond the banality of everyday life, to stand outside of ourselves..." (page 150). HUH? Are we? Is Sophie? We need to put this in the heading. When you think about it, who in this book is NOT in this condition?
This is fun! What do YOU think about anything, Sharp Readers??
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Yes, Coleridge did indulge in opium. It's generally believed that "Kubla Khan" is a fragment of an opium dream. Remember when we did "The Ancient Mariner," Ginny?
Here's just part of the definition of RAPE, v. from the Oxford English Dictionary. I find the etymology interesting. Note that as early as the 13th century the verb had its present meaning.
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rape, v.
[Probably < classical Latin rapere to seize, take by force, to carry off, snatch away, to violate, to sack, plunder < the same Indo-European base as Lithuanian apr pti to grasp, Albanian rrjep to peel, pluck, skin, rob, and perhaps ancient Greek feeding on. Compare Old French rapir to seize a woman (13th cent.). Compare RAP v.3, RAP v.4 Compare also RAPE n.3
The relationship, if any, with Middle Dutch r pen to pick up, to seize, to abduct, to rob (Dutch rapen), Middle Low German r pen to seize, to grab, and with the Germanic forms listed at RAP v.3 is not clear. With to rape and scrape at Phrases 2 compare Middle Low German schr pen unde r pen to rake in, to scrape together (money).
2. trans.
a. To carry off (a person) by force; esp. to abduct a woman, usually for the purpose of sexual violation. Freq. with away, from. Also fig. Cf. RAPE n.3 3.
3. trans. To violate (a person) sexually; to commit rape against (a person); esp. (of a man) to force (a woman) to have sexual intercourse against her will. See RAPE n.3 2a.
Now the usual sense.
App. not used in the 18th cent.
1574 A. G. tr. Test. Twelue Patriarches sig. Cviiiv (margin), The Sichemites..Raped Dina..Persecuted straungers..Rauished their wiues. 1616 J. BULLOKAR Eng. Expositor (at cited word), Rape, a violent rauishing of a woman against her will. a1641 R. MONTAGU Acts & Monuments (1642) 343 To..torment their bodies, rape their wives and daughters. 1684 T. D. GENT New Littany v. From Marrying one Sister, and Raping the Next, For ever, &c.
1823 ‘B. CORNWALL’ Girl of Provence in Flood of Thessaly lxxxvii. 114 The rage and glow Of Phoebus as he tried in vain to rape Evergreen Daphne. 1861 Times 18 July, She charged that..he had violently assaulted and raped her. 1885 Law Times 78 240/2 Females who have been raped or indecently assaulted. 1928 D. H. LAWRENCE Let. ?28 Oct. (1962) II. 1096 Why do men only thrill to a woman who'll rape them? 1977 New Yorker 24 Oct. 64/3 A man..claimed he had been assaulted and raped by four other prisoners. 1996 R. DOYLE Woman who walked into Doors xxiv. 159 The mother of a neighbour of mine was raped and nearly killed by a young lad of nineteen, out of his head on drugs.
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One more poem. In this one, a siren speaks
Siren Song
This is the one song everyone
would like to learn: the song
that is irresistible:
the song that forces men
to leap overboard in squadrons
even though they see beached skulls
the song nobody knows
because anyone who had heard it
is dead, and the others can’t remember.
Shall I tell you the secret
and if I do, will you get me
out of this bird suit?
I don’t enjoy it here
squatting on this island
looking picturesque and mythical
with these two feathery maniacs,
I don’t enjoy singing
this trio, fatal and valuable.
I will tell the secret to you,
to you, only to you.
Come closer. This song
is a cry for help: Help me!
Only you, only you can,
you are unique
at last. Alas
it is a boring song
but it works every time.
Margaret Atwood
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Love the Atwood!! Wow. Interesting on the rape, too. Thank you! Yes I definitely remember the Ancient Mariner, who could forget it, but did not recall the drug of choice. What was it Holmes took? They removed it from the first movie, a pipe of something?
Here's Odysseus (Ulysses) on an early vase tying himself to the mast so he could hear those gorgeous sirens in The Odyssey. :)
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Odysseysrirensmast300.jpg)
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Ginny, I think Holmes did Opium. I kind of remember reference in some of his stories to making use of opium dens on occasion. I forget which one, but I think in one of the books it was on purpose, in one of his disguises to ferret out some information or a person.
I picked up on the garum and the room right away. Also, I am interested in the painting in which one of the sirens and the victim had the same face, that of Iusta's mother. The comment it elicited had to do with feeling pain and pleasure at the same time.
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Andrea and Ginny..Thank you for responding to my computer issue. I will have to call tech support and see what key needs to be set or unset.
I thought my head was spinning after researching sirens, sibyls and homosexuality, but now I just feel completely overwhelmed. Carol must have had a blast writing this story, within a story, within a story. Because it has parts of fiction and true live happenings, it is so difficult to remember it is a fiction novel.
Ginny..Now I'm not sure on the FBI locating protected witnesses in Sorrento, if they are we all need to be protected witnesses, it's a paradise on earth. Hahahaa Did you understand why they would want the witness there and what THEIR (the FBI's !! ) interest might be and who this witness was and what HE or SHE was doing there? What on earth do they all want with this treasure chest?
When Elgin returned from Sorrento, he mentioned seeing Oscar Wilde at the hotel. Could the Tetrakty's cult be involved in the type of activities Peyrefitte mentions and the FBI is trying to bust them for soliciting to minor boys? Ginny when you say its a paradise on earth, some may see it as a paradise for their sexual pleasures and activities.
Its being thrown around so much about the sexual activities, even in Calatoria's home. Phinea is given a room that guests do not usually sleep in, and it was mentioned so he would not see what was going on in the lower level. The men in the showers where Phinea went the next morning were engaging in these activities. They discuss the rape of Peresephone and how Iusta may be honored rather than horrified during her initiate in the painting.
For some reason I am no longer seeing Iusta as the poor slave girl, just like I am not seeing Agnes as the forlorn southern girl. Sophie overidentified with Iusta's story of being a slave, seeing herself enslaved in a home of grandparents who mistreated her after being abandoned by her mother. It turns out Iusta was honored to take part in the initiate, she stated to Phinea, pg. 153 "It is what I have been raised for."
Most all crimes are committed for money and/or power. Sex, drugs, fresco's, scrolls with important documents on them, and cults seem to be the things in this book that would bring about the possession of money and power. If the scrolls have the documented proof that gives the date of Iusta's birth, and the outcome of the lawsuit, then someone will inherit Iusta's property. The question is WHO? If the scrolls have Sibylline books, it would give the destiny of the future. If the scrolls contain Plato/Pythagorean theories of the body and soul and the makeup of the universe then it would give someone enormous power. There is a lot that could be gained, yet much could be lost.
If Elgin is working with the FBI, is it possible Dale came to the boardroom to shoot Elgin for the cult? We were led to believe it was because of his obsession with Agnes. Afterall, if Agnes is a part of the cult its possible she knew all along what Dale's mission was and was nervous that morning because she knew. If Dale had Sophie's third volume as Sam said he did, its possible Agnes had given it to Dale.
Agnes, has definitely taken the lead here in Italy. When she and Sophie saw the man on the boat who Sophie thought was Ely waving to her, is it possible he was waving to Agnes, a member of the cult? If so is Ely a true member of the cult, or is he a plant to expose the cult, the protected witness Elgin spoke of?
We learn the chest is empty.......so....who has what was in the chest? My guess is Iusta stole the items in the chest from Phinea the night she slept with him. With all the poppy, opium, and other hallucinatory drugs they had on hand I'm getting the feeling it was one big drugged out orgy in the paradise of Capri. ::)
Ciao for now...........
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Ginny
When I learned the Odyssey Odyseus tied himself to the mast so he wouldn't be tempted by the Sirens song. He didn't trust his will power. I remember the discussion about the strength of the call of the Sirens. Seems they were irresistable.
Now I decided to answer one of the questions that was posted by our leaders. For some reason I chose the last one about Wilhelmina Jashenski and like everything else in this discussion I almost drowned in the fascinating material.(Was it a Sirens Song that called me?).
W.J. 1910-2007 was a noted scholar on Pompeii. She started out as a legal scholar but after visiting the site she got interested in the horticulture aspect of the place since she herself was an avid gardener. Besides Pompei she also worked on the gardens of Hadrian in Tivoli.
W.J. began teaching in 1935 and was on the faculty of the U of maryland from 1946-1980.She is viewed as a pioneer of the field of Garden Archeology in the ancient Mediterraneum cultures.
Among her works is"A Pompesian Herbal -Ancient and Modern Plants"-1999 and the two volume work for which she won prizes and accolades-"Gardens of Pompei, Herculaneum and the villas destroyed bu Vesuvius".
In her obituary it was noted that she knew more about the gardens of Pompei than any person since the residents buried there.
The dwellings in Pompei were mostly row houses with a bit of green space to grow figs, olives,cherries and other fruits and vegetables. Gardens were a favorite site for religous activities from animal sacrifice to meditation.
She found that many ways of growing fruits and vegetables in Pompei remain exactly the same as in Italy of today. She
mentions that she never studied a garden in Pompei that didn't have a dog living in it.
I found this fascinating since some of the tiled art that I saw in Pompei was of dogs wearing collars exactly lke the ones my dog wears.
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Jude- maybe your dog is a practicing Tetraktys- perhaps he's been reincarnated. :o
When I return from my 9 hole golf league I will respond re. Wilhemina J.
bellamar- thus far I can not find any indication of Agnes being in collusion with anyone.
What does everyone think of this Maria? Is she a piece of work or what? She soulnds more like the Gestapo than she does a representative of the Catholic Church.
I'm off to the 9's.
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Whew.. I simply dont go to the movies enough to figure out who is who.. Maria.. This character is truly weird to me.. Is she jealous of Sophie?? Does she feel that John is somehow her property. She certainly behaves like a jealous women.. I find her confusing.
Sophie in the cavern.. This is such an eerie scene. Agnes seems almost threatening.
Since we are leaving Saturday in the Rv, I am at the mercy of RV parks, for wi fi after that. So I will probably end up missing a lot. But I am having fun now with the discussion.
We did stop reading on a real serial type ending.. People trapped in the tunnel.. A case for Lassie?? sorry I am being silly.. But it is that sort of day.
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Ginny, double WOW. After viewing your DVD last night, I put the TV on this morning and came into the middle (nuts!) of a program in Spanish on the History International Channel about Pompeii and Herculaneum. Not only did it show the ruins, including lots of mosiacs and statues, but also jewelry and some toiletries. At the end, they showed an old news clip of Vesuvius erupting and destroying a town. I don't know when this happened or what town. Will have to look it up when I get back. Time to do some needed grocery shopping.
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You find Lyros 'creepy', GINNY? I find him intriguing, possibly with secret motives for his actions. I'm thinking he does want to recreate the events at the original Villa Del Notte. Yet on the whole quite likeable. Look at the care he takes of Sophie during their walk, making frequent stops in the shade so she can rest. Compare that with Elgin's rapid hustle, leaving Sophie to catch up as best she can, short of breath. I'm thumbs down on Elgin.
I found this bit by 'Phineas' about Herculaneum to be interesting. "...it occurred to me that the dissolute nature of the town might be a result of
living on unstable ground". It seems that living in such uncertainty does affect people's outlook on life. For some, it is 'eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die', which is the result Phineas is thinking of.
There is also the opposite reaction, where people living constantly with danger feel the need to make their life meaningful; to do all they can with whatever time they have. I am reminded of Carlos Castaneds's 'impeccable warrior'.
The impeccable warrior thinks of death as a friend always standing at his shoulder, inspiring him to live a disciplined life each day.
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Steph, Some days we need to be a bit silly. This book is so serious and mysterious a light hearted day sounds good to me. I see Agnes targeting Sophie, does she actually feel inferior to her, needing to take the lead in the swimming adventure and translating the Latin? I've suspected Agnes a part of the cult since her dark eyes that indicated sleepless nights reading those crazy cult books.
Frybabe, that is eerie for you to wake up to a the History channel, and Vesuvius erupting. dooo doooo dooooo dooooooo
Babi, that's interesting your take on Elgin and John. I've seen different times both men seeming to be thoughtful and caring where Sophie is concerned. Elgin was so caring on the boat ride, I sense his rushing through the streets was more for sake of her safety in case they were being followed. As for John, I agree he was thoughtful during their walk, yet he did not inform her of the steep stairs to the hotel he recommended to her knowing she was recovering from her losing half of her lung. So it seems both men at different times have shown care and concern for Sophie. On the other hand, Agnes is leading her into danger. I keep finding my thoughts and feelings about the characters changing just like they seem to change with each new page.
Well, its slip and slide and sprinkler time for the day care kids, so off to the sunshine I shall go. It's a tough job but someone has to do it. ;)
Ciao for now......................
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It seems with this book I’m always either running behind, or continually taking side trips. I’m loving the discussion here and all the branches that is takes. Hadn’t thought much about poppies, but wish I had some growing in my yard – they come back every year, right? Don’t need to plant them every spring?
Noting the list of queries in the heading -- #7, I’ve latched onto Wilamina J, knowing or remembering nothing of her other than she is an archeologist. (Ah, Jude,just saw your post -- like minds) But from her obit in last December’s Washington Post we learn that she established the field of garden archaeology and probably knew more about the gardens of ancient Pompeii except for the residents of 79 AD.
Here’s a link to her obit. What a wonderful life and career she had. She was 97.
Wilamina J (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/13/AR2008011302806.html)
Simon, young? I thought Agnes referred to him as a dirty old man.
Babi, I leaning your way about John Lyros, but do you really think he wants to recreate those initiation rites? Yikes. And here I've been trusting him more than Elgin.
Back to more careful reading and rereading.
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Just a non-sequitur here on Sherlock Holmes' drug of choice ... not opium, cocaine!
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week 2: Through Chapter 16:
The Game's Afoot!
1. What an exciting section! So many clues, so many mysteries!! What do you want to talk about first?
2. Who do you think was in the blue and white sailboat?
3. What cult do you think Iusta belongs to?
4. What is the meaning of the three squares, first at the table and then in the mail? Who do you think is sending them?
5. What do you think is Maria's real interest in the project?
6. How many themes of rebirth and resurrection are there in this section?
7. Can you shed some light on any of the following?
----Parthenope
----Agrai Mysteries
----Oxyrhynchus Project
----Petronii
----The Sibyl of Cumae
----Isis/ Apuleius
----Wilhelmina Jashemski
8. This would make a great movie. Who would you cast in the parts? Who do you see as Simon, John Lyros, Elgin and Sophie particularly?
9. How would you characterize the atmosphere on Capri?
10. What do you think John Lyros is actually after?
11. What did you like best in this section?
12. "We're all hungry for ritual, to experience something beyond the banality of everyday life, to stand outside of ourselves..." (Simon on page 150). When you think about it, who in this book is NOT in this condition? Why?
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The Rape of Persephone
Bernini 1621-24.
Rome (Villa Borghese)
Schedule
Chapters 10-16 for June 8 - 14
Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22
Chapters 25-End for June 23 - 30
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
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Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.
New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!
Pedln and Jude- thank you for the information on Wilamina, our resident Pompeiian gardener, historian and archeologist. I understand the attraction of Pompeii for an archeologist but would never have considered an avid gardner's enthusiasm for that area. It makes perfect sense now, especially if the someone "lets the dogs out!"
Babi and Pedln are questioning John Lyros'es funding of the excavation. Let's think about him for a moment.
We know he's a billionaire who made his fortune in computer software by inventing an encryption program and he was also a classics major at UT at age 21.
When one of them googled him they found a 5 year discrepancy where he dropped off the radar screen and then her resurfaced to announce the establishment of the John Lyros Institute, a foundation intended to aid research in ancient history, philosophy, art, and archeology.
He became so enthralled with the Villa della Notre that he built its replica on the Isle of Capri, one half hour away from the original villa at Herculaneum, with a state of the art lab.
What else do we know except he was a climber, had a broken nose that left him with a predatory "hawk" look? (That's a fact I do not like.)
When he met Sophie, he was very much the gentleman and called for his Institute's boat the Parthenope (let us remember that that name was the name given to a Greek siren who threw herself into the sea) to bring her back. On pg. 116 he "personally oversees the project of building Sophie back up, wining and dining her. "
What else do we know about him so far?
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I'm sorry we went directly to page 11 as I was working on the heading so I missed a couple of your posts while I was fiddling around with that chore.
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Steph- be safe in your travels.
I am with you on Maria, I can't figure out why the hell she's even in this story yet, except for the fact she's a rep. of the church.
.. Maria.. This character is truly weird to me.. Is she jealous of Sophie?? Does she feel that John is somehow her property. She certainly behaves like a jealous women.. I find her confusing
Again, what do we really know of her besides she is bitchy and resentful?
Pg. 147 "It was probably cooler on the top level... I'm sure Dr. Chases room, for instance, is much cooler than our are."
She makes caustic remarks about the dresses or skirts that Sophie dons. Remember when she told Sophie to 'go to the beach, you could use the color?"
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr- I love people like that, I spend all of my time trying to return barb for barb.
She chides Agnes about the interest that Elgin Lawrence had in her (Agnes).
She seems to notice everything as well, doesn't she? She knew that John and Elgin had left for Herculeneum early to overseee the excavation on Phineas's room.
Who is she?
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From Ginny's list in the heading I was silly enough to pick on the Oxyrhynchus Project for the simple reason that I'd read about it some time in the dim distant past and therefore I thought it would be a simple matter to check it out again and jot down a few points...woe is me - I have been googling and reading for half the day. It is so interesting, so here goes...though where to start is a problem.
Oxyrhynchus is in Egypt about 100 miles or so to the south west of Cairo and was inhabited for centuries during classical times- a modern town exists there today.
In the late 1890 two Oxford graduates, Bernard Grenfell and Arthur Hunt excavated a mound in the desert - the mound being the town's rubbish dump - and discovered heaps of papyri, packed them up and later deposited them with Oxford University and this was really the beginning of the Project. The papyri contain fragments of Greek and Roman literature, Biblical texts, records of daily life, public life and so on and presents : virtually a complete record of the life of the town and of the civilization and empires of which the town was a part
Over the century since the find the ongoing research of Oxyrhynchus Project has been funded and supported by various organisations eg. Egyptian Exploration Society, The British Academy and similar bodies. The focus for the research has been the publication of the material contained in the papyri - to date 4,700 items have been published - one volume is published each year. In all 100,000 papyrus fragments are housed at Oxford, with their indexes, archives and photographic record it is the biggest hoard of classical manuscripts in the world.
The find was enormous. There was so much material that Bernard Grenfell wrote: The flow of papyri soon became a torrent - merely turning up the soil with one's boot would frequently disclose a layer
He goes on :
The third and by far the greatest find [of 'archive' mounds], that of the Byzantium archives took place on March 18th and 19th [1897]. and was I suppose, a 'record', in point of quantity. On the first of these two days we came upon a mound which had a thick layer consisting almost entirely of papyrus rolls. There was room for six pairs of men and boys to be working simultaneously at this storehouse, and the difficulty was to find enough baskets in all Behneseh to contain the papyri. At the end of the day's work no less than thirtysix good sized baskets were brought in from the place, several of them stuffed with fine rolls three to ten feet long, including some of the largest Greek rolls I have ever seen. As the baskets were required for the next day's work, Mr. Hunt and I started at 9 p.m. after dinner to stow away all the papyri in some empty packing cases which we fortunately had at hand. The task was only finished at three in the morning, and on the following night we had a repetition of it, for twenty five more baskets were filled before the place was exhausted.
This was our last great find of papyri.
For the rest of their lives Grenfell & Hunt continued to excavate each year during the season and between digs spent their time at Oxford working on deciphering their finds.
The work continues today and of course scholars at Oxford are using the multi-spectral imaging technology to recover previously illegible writing just as our friends are doing in Night Villa
This project really is worth checking out - try these links. The Wiki seems accurate and covers the story in a straightforward way - the other originates from Oxford's Professor P.J. Parsons who is in charge of the project and that site is definitely worth clicking around.
Oxyrhynchus Project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyrhynchus)
Parsons Oxy Project (http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/frame)
Sorry I can't get the link for the Oxford site to work but if you just google for Oxyrhynchus Project Oxford you should get something pretty quickly.
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Because papyrus was expensive, paper was often reused: a document might have farm accounts on one side, and a student's text of Homer on the other. The Oxyrhynchus Papyri, therefore, contained a complete record of the life of the town, and of the civilizations and empires of which the town was a part.
I looked something up while posting this and lost everything but my last quote. oy vey!!!
You can not search the web BEFORE you post or it goes with the wind.
Let me try again. Thank you Gum for your interest in researching the Oxyrhynchum Project for us. It is so interesting , isn't it incredible how truth and fiction have been blended here in the Night Villa. I can't believe that they had actually found fragments of text of the Gospel, i.e. Thomas, Matthew, etc., in that dig.
We, oops, I should say I first heard of the project when sophie met the Brit, George Petherbridge, who was there on loan from Oxford to help separate the layers of writing and finding the right spectrum for the ink used on the Phineus papyrus scroll. He was supposed to have recovered a part of a lost tragedy by Sophocles. This is where I went awry. I tried to research to see which tragedy was lost and I found the tragedy when my post disappeared.
The Lost One
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Andrea,
She makes caustic remarks about the dresses or skirts that Sophie dons. Remember when she told Sophie to 'go to the beach, you could use the color?"
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr- I love people like that, I spend all of my time trying to return barb for barb.
ROFLMAO......I love people like you Andrea!!
Who is Maria? Well, the church has to be represented, so she is the one there on their behalf according to the narrator. Is she really a nun? I tend to think so. Is she really jealous of Sophie, or does she just take pleasure in making Sophie feel inadequate. ah hem "Mother Superior" syndrome maybe. My grand daughter is starting Notre Dame an all girls high school in the fall and because she was granted a scholarship she must be in the work program for this entire week. Sr. Linda stated, "You will show up promptly at 8:00 and not leave before 2:00 You are not to miss one day unless there is a death in the family." (tee hee) My grand daughter has gone to a Catholic school all through her elementary years and never experienced this type of attitude with the nuns at our parish/school. So I do have to giggle a little bit at Maria's attitude because the prim and prissy attitude and being so judgemental on Sophie's appearance rings true. She is prudish which would be expected for a nun of celebacy, and punctual, knowing where eveyone is early in the morning, which all nuns tend to learn through very early morning vespers. She is obnoxious, but then I have met a few obnoxious nuns while teaching at a Catholic school for 15 yrs. :o
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Bellamarie, I have tried and tried to find where in this book it said something about her being very pretty, dressed to the 9's, etc. but I can't find it. She doesn't sound like a nun to me. Firstly, would the church send a nun there to examine these types of scrolls filled with orgy sacrifices and rape? I went to a Catholic Nursing school and believe me, THOSE Mercy nuns were anything but full of mercy. Great training, I will grant you, but a young girl finding herself at age 17, like me, with those nuns... makes Maria look like Mary Poppins. ::)
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Thanks for the link Gumtree. While everybody is at it, look at their link for the Herculaneum. At the bottom of the home page is a link to their newsletter. The newsletter has lots of photos and an article (p8) about the House of Papri which includes a diagram of where the scrolls were found.
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Andrea..."Marry Poppins"....ROFLMAO... I hear ya.
I am only going on what the narrator has told us. I thought it very strange they would send a nun to represent the church. Why on earth a nun? I am just saying I don't find it hard to see Maria as a nun, if indeed she is. I would have expected the church to send a least a priest or a theologian lawyer on their behalf. It is weird to say the least. But then this entire book has been weird, so it fits in. ::)
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Please , someone point out on what page does the book say that Maria is a Nun?
I know there is a stereotype of Nuns but here are some little known facts about this profession.
A huge percentage (Some say 60%) of Nuns are victims of sexual abuse by a family member. There is a cadre of Psychiatrists that work mainly with Nuns who have a plethora of Mental Health issues.
Although I am Jewish I have a very close friend who is an ex-Nun married to an ex-Priest. There is a huge and I mean Huge colony of ex Nuns and Priests who live in the Aptos-Santa Cruz area in CA. They are really very fine people who do much charitable work but not through the Church.
Many Nuns have high academic degrees paid for by the Church that does encourage knowledge of many subjects. However there are many different sects of Nuns and some don't encourage learning at all.
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pg. 131 It describes Maria!
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Jude- as I said before, I can not find anything that "says" Maria is a nun. Yes, you are correct. There are various orders that practice quite differently from the other.
pg. 131 says she is no older than 30, dressed impeccably.. pearls gleam on earlobes and a gold cross nestling between breasts. Nowhere does that describe a "nun" in the secular sense nor in a religious way.
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JudeS...
A huge percentage (Some say 60%) of Nuns are victims of sexual abuse by a family member. There is a cadre of Psychiatrists that work mainly with Nuns who have a plethora of Mental Health issues.
That is interesting, where did you get those statistics?
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Oh my heavens...all along we (I) have been thinking Maria is a nun!!!
"Maria Prezziotti, an Italian archaeologist from the Pontificia Instituto Sacra-Archeologia-PISA. If I'd been expecting a dour old nun as the Catholic Church's representative I couldn't have been more mistaken. Maria Prezziotti is no older than thirty. She's dressed impeccably in a dark skirt and crisp cotton blouse: pearls gleam on her earlobes and a gold cross nestles between her ample breasts. It occurs to me that her outfit is nearly indentical to the one the housekeeper wears, only on Maria it looks chic and sexy." pg. 131
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Ah- this is what I was seeking. pg. 133
"I just wondered why we haven'[t all gotten to see the scanned portions of the Phineas scroll. It's my job to look for any Christian regerences in the material recovered. It is why my organization agreed to fund this project."... no doubt to remind her (Agnes) that John Lyros isn't the only benefactor of the Papyrus project.
Do you think because of the texts of the gospel that were found in the Oxyrhynchus Project, the Catholic church wanted the heads up on this one? Or am I just reaching here?
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Its interesting that says her outfit is nearly identical to the one the housekeepers wear. She knew who set the table, she called the housekeeper by name, she asked if they were expecting another guest and ordered the housekeeper to take the chair away from the table. She is up early and seems to know everyone's schedule.
Why would she be dressed like the housekeepers? This is so weird.
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Gum, I found your work on the discoveries at Oxyrhynchus, Egypt, fascinating:
"In the late 1890s two Oxford graduates, Bernard Grenfell and Arthur Hunt excavated a mound in the desert - the mound being the town's rubbish dump - and discovered heaps of papyri, packed them up and later deposited them with Oxford University and this was really the beginning of the Project. The papyri contain fragments of Greek and Roman literature, Biblical texts, records of daily life, public life and so on and presents : virtually a complete record of the life of the town and of the civilization and empires of which the town was a part."
I guess they didn't have a shredder back then?
Imagine what can be found in old garbage dumps!
Thoughts on Maria--I assumed she was a nun because of the plain clothing, dark skirt, simple white top, cross at the neck. Everyone remember all the changes after Vatican II? There are some orders of nuns who wear ordinary street clothing of a modest nature. I think that some of her snipes at Sophie are because of what Sophie is wearing. Interesting to me that she doesn't seem to make the same comments about Agnes, maybe because much of the time Agnes is off with the parchments.
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Professor Maryal- I am delighted to see you here. You wrote:
The papyri contain fragments of Greek and Roman literature, Biblical texts, records of daily life, public life and so on and presents : virtually a complete record of the life of the town and of the civilization and empires of which the town was a part."
No shredders at that time, you are a funny lady!!!
What would happen, seriously,... if the Catholic Church was represented in such a dig and these Gospel fragments had been uncovered?
Noone actually holds any rights to anything found, do they, except the guy springing for the excavation. Of course archeologists are students of remains and historians usually but what if the church demanded the rights to the Gospel morsels that were revealed?
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I figure that if early writings of note to the Church were found that the Vatican would want to know ASAP if there was anything in them contradicting or refuting church doctrine. That way they would have an early start on studying and explaining (the word of the day, spinning) the findings to the many people who would be demanding an explanation or an answer of some kind from the Church.
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Andy--If any biblical documents had been found, you can bet they would be seized (one way or another--maybe that's why Maria is somewhat fierce) and then go into bureaucratic never-never land for a Long Time.
The Dead Sea scrolls were discovered in (I think) 1947 and it took a long time before the public had any access to translations.
Just looked it up --dead sea scrolls discovered between 1947 and 1956.
There are some peg dates in my mind but I often check to see if my mind has gone whacko. I remember the 1947 because my father was a minister and there were, a number of years later, books about the scrolls in the house.
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frybabe--we were posting at the same time. Yes, exactly, the Vatican would want to know because of doctrine.
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Thanks Deems and Frybaby- I hadn't even considered WHAT would evolve if any of that doctrine were contrary to todays tenets.
I don't know why I keep reverting back to Parthenope, one of the 3 sirens, the sea nymph. Perhaps it's because of my love for the water, I guess. I found it interesting that after throwing herself into the sea, she washed ashore in Naples and it was then called Parthe nope after her name.
I bet that courageous Ulysses is sorry that he stuffed his ears full of wax and tied himself to the mast.
I'll have to ask Ginny but had he listened perhap it wouldn't have taken him 10 years to return home. ::)
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Deems, Frybaby....Yes, the church would be quick to want to see exactly what is in those records and if they could hurt the church in any way. Only I have also been wondering if the Catholic church is worried about the Pythagorean theory possibly refuting their teaching of Genesis. Those Sibylline Books that foretold the birth of Christ keeps rolling around in my head, and the fact that Plato wrote about the Pythagorean theory, that God used geometry to create body and soul.
This would go against the teachings of the church. The sentence that stays with me as a Catholic reading and trying to figure out what if anything would "tarnish the church" is when Phinea said, "You'd be amazed at the traffic in magical secrets practiced in the bazaais of the East - its enough to tarnish one's belief in these religions when so often there's a price attached to the mysteries."
I still can't stop thinking of the activities that Peyrefitte wrote about, the Club Mediteranee and how damaging that would be to the Catholic church, if it were revealed in any of them scrolls.
In Carol's answer yesterday she said, Something to the effect this book would make you rethink religions.
This does remind me of the Da Vinci Code, dare I say that is why I chose Tom Hanks to be cast as John Lyros.
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Ahhhhhh, the plot thickens (what a cliche, sorry). It is getting hard for me to stop now. I am at the end of our reading for this week and want to keep going. Kind of like when George stopped where he did in the translations.
I don't think Elgin should have told Sophie about the FBI informer. Now if I were Sophie I would begin to think that maybe that I wasn't seeing things and that the informer might, just might be Ely. What was Elgin's purpose for telling her? A slip of the tongue could put all three in danger.
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I know what you mean Frybabe about wanting to go on BUT there are so many things we haven't yet discussed.
How about the argument between Simon and John Lyros? What do you think that was all about?
Why did Agnes want Sophie to dive with her to reach the underwater opening?
What's with all of the mermaid talk?
What's with Agnes feeling "reborn" all over again" when she surfaces?
What really happened with her and Sam when she got to UT & when he subsequently sent the letter wondering if she had any feelings for him?
(That was when she asked Sophie is she would go back with an old boyfriend who had made a mistake.)
Who was that guy on the Persophone in the red T-shirt looking at them thru binoculars, over 100 ft. away? Could it BE Ely?
pg. 142 Sophie questions the "dual nature of woman" and rethinks it when she sees Two women in profile-Day and Night-" a common motif in 19th century cameos."
Do you think women truly have a dual nature?
so many questions, so little time. :-\
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Hello. I'm countrymm and would like to join in. I haven't finished the second section. Should I finish it before joining the current discussion? I need to be careful not to read any spoilers.
Normally does the group finish the section before starting to read the current exchanges that are here online?
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Welcome, countrymm. You are welcome to join in at any time. It's up to you whether you want to read and post right away or if prefer to wait to read the messages until you've caught up with the reading schedule. It's fine either way! We look forward to hearing your thoughts.
I'm just curious... how did you find our discussion?
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Hello, countrymm, come join us! Sometimes people read the whole section before we discuss and other people don't. But you might very well encounter some spoilers. The general rule is just not to talk about anything ahead of the section for the week. So people who have finished the whole book have to be careful. ;) :)
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Andrea, For some reason I felt Simon and John were having a lover's quarrel about the attention John was giving to Sophie. Maybe I am totally off base, this book does that to me. lolol And to many of the characters too. lolol
I can not figure out Agnes's motives for her seeming to want to have Sophie on this trip and for taking her to the swimming place. I sense Agnes has something to do with the cult because of her relationship with Dale. I find when I try to answer one question, ten more are swirling around in my head.
Agnes had a Little Mermaid quilt on her bed. What would a college student want with a childhood quilt? She mentions the Mermaid show and I got the feeling Agnes did it on purpose knowing Sophie had gone to them. How would she know something about Sophie's childhood? Its as if Agnes is playing a little game with Sophie.
Again I have to say I am a bit preturbed with Sophie seeming to ignore all the coincidences. Is she really that dense? Why hasn't she been questioning Agnes's behavior? Why doesn't it seem odd to Sophie that back in Texas Agnes seemed like the forlorn helpless little southerner and now in Italy she seems to know so much?
I feel pretty certain it was Ely on the boat waving.
I like a good mystery, but I have to admit this section of the book has exhausted me. I tend to feel there are too many characters, and too many stories going on, too much reasearch that only leads to too many more questions. I'm turning in for the night.
Ciao for now................
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Thanks for welcoming me, Marcie and Deems. I'm almost done with the section now, so I might as well jump in! I found your site several years ago and have been visiting ever since. When you changed your group name, I started reading about your book ideas for the June selection. Managed to get Night Villa from the library. Wish I had my own copy because there are places I want to mark! Know the feeling?
I'm wondering why Agnes is literally shaking while the nun is trying to take care of her. What experience did Agnes have with nuns prior to this?
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Bellamarie, my thoughts are similar to yours. I picked up on a lover's quarrel between John and Simon too and thought I saw a reference to homosexuality. I also agree that Agnes is now revealing knowledge about Sophie's past and taunting her with it. Maybe Agnes applied to study under Sophie at UT in order to influence her regarding the cult? Perhaps Agnes and Dale had been in the cult together and had met Ely there? Could Agnes be trying to draw Sophie back to Ely by reuniting them on this trip? For sure Agnes is no longer the shy quiet girl. She has knowledge of the cult, has found her voice, and definitely challenges Maria. BTW, I never saw Maria as a nun; I saw her as a sexy young thing and even wonder if she could be the daughter of the maid she resembles. I'm sure it WAS Ely on the boat!
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Countrymm Hello to you and welcome. You picked a great discussion to join - there are just so many trails to follow - so much real history intertwined with the fiction. Exciting. Hope you enjoy it as much as I do.
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I get the feeling that the initiation rites are important at some point. Mostly they sound disgusting, but that is a modern feeling.
I do see where everyone is going with John and Elgin.. I backchecked and each one has shown Sophie great care at one point and not thinking in another, but that is mostly human behavior.
Simon seems mostly to be comic relief..
House here is in an uproar. When we leave on the longer rv trips, I need to take a bunch more stuff. We take our kayaks and bikes..I take a lot more books and since we are staying in some remote areas,, dvds for the non cable places..Clothes since we are going north means a wide variety of weather.. All in all, my house is a serious mess.
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Welcome countrymm, its nice to have another voice to be heard hear. I'm happy to hear you saw the lover's quarrel with Simon and John too, I was beginning to think I was having some of Sophie's hallucinations. There is so much coverage of the gay atmosphere, I have to ask why?
Steph, I am certain the initiation rites will hold some importance some where along the line. I feel the entire sexual atmosphere, initiation, frescoes, and gay trysts are a bit disgusting. I have not connected emotionally to one character in this book. Its as though the characters are void of emotional feelings. A love story it is NOT! I was feeling some empathy for Sophie, but she seems a bit hollow and I have lost caring for her. Once I got the impression Iusta was a participant and not a victim, I stopped identifying her with Sophie. Carol Goodman is an excellent writer and has a lot of questions to answer for us in the next pages to come, which I have no doubt she will. I just felt overwhelmed by this section. There's so much going on that when I begin to focus on one thing, I forget the other dozen. I sort of feel how you just described preparing for your RV trip and house, I feel my mind is a serious mess, after reading this section. I like your simplistic style of reading books. Human nature indeed! We all can be caring one moment and thoughtless the next. So my tendency is not to pass too harsh a judgement on either guy. John is just so mysterious, but Elgin with his FBI involvement has taken on a bit of mystery too. Have a great trip!
Ciao for now..................
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BELLAMARIE, that hotel John recommended was so bad, I suspected he chose it deliberately to induce her to change her mind about not staying with the
rest of them at the villa. I do believe that the man has an agenda so far
as Sophie is concerned; I just don't know yet what it is.
BELLAMARIE
I keep finding my thoughts and feelings about the characters changing just like they seem to change with each new page.
I suspect we would be wise to pay close attention to everything Ms. Goodman chooses to tell us. She seems to be a very meticulous plotter.
Isn't it odd that both John and Ely 'drop out' for 5 years. I can't help
thinking that this is not a meaningless coincidence.
[ALF, if I'm going to pause to do research, I first 'minimize' this site. So far
it has worked just fine. When I 'lose' a post, it seems to be because I accidentally hit some odd key.]
Sorry, but considering Simon's persistence in making Agnes blush with his references to the erotic art they found everywhere, I simply can't see him as
homosexual. I felt the argument with John had to be about that old stairway that was exposed and the art they saw there. That was the only thing that had changed in their situation.
Okay, guys. What does ROFLMAO mean? I haven't a clue.
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EXCITING!
I leave for 12 hours and I return to find a new reader to join us. Welcome aboard countrymm, we are delighted to have you with us on this archelogical dig. Put on your boots and jump in with both feet as we attempt to straighten out these mercurial characters. I love it when characters are so unpredictable. I think that it is a good thing when an author maintains confusion and keeps you guessing. The climax is yet to come and Steph- the rituals will all make sense to you soon (probably more sense than the confusion of your packing for your upcoming trip.)
The scroll that was found was found in the middle of the courtyard "(as if iit had been dropped by someone fleeing the villa during the eruption.") I find that fact very interesting! (As Arte Johnson used to say.)
Simon was curious as to what Calatoria didn't want Phineas to see and agreed that the setting screams S & M. I guess I didn't think that much about the homosexuality issue until I reread the part about the 15 yr. old boy who
"gladly traded his working-class life in Rome for the pleasure palace built for he and his lover" which was named The Villa Lysis. Is this important? I would bet the ranch that it may be.
Good grief, now we get into Tiberius and how he sacrificed a boy....
I, too am getting tired of chasing my thoughts. :D
Look at poor bellamarie- she fears that she is having her own hallucinations. :D
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Babi- We ere posting at the same time. Thanks, I will try that minimize thing (although I thought that I di already) and then do my search. I lose a post too often to have hit a wrong key. I seem to have the key to lose the post. ;D
ROFLMAO is one of those "cutzie" anagrams for Roll On Floor Laugh My A.. Off
I agree with you, our author is clever! Pay attention or suffer .... ;D
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Babi....ROFLMAO means Rolling On Floor Laughing My Ass Off.
Andrea, All that talk about opium and Poppies its no wonder I am feeling like I am hallucinating. :o
Ciao for now..................
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Yep, we are all posting at the same time once again. ;D
Babi.."I suspect we would be wise to pay close attention to everything Ms. Goodman chooses to tell us. She seems to be a very meticulous plotter."
I anticipated this and have an entire notepad filled already, and still feel like I have missed clues. Like Ginny has said, "This book is magical", you go back to re read something and find something else there. doooo doooo dooooo I'm beginning to feel like a cat chasing its tail, only to end up dizzy with no catch. ROFLMAO...I am laughng at myself now.
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Golly moses, how can it be Wednesday? Half the week gone?
Welcome, welcome, countrymm!! Love your post and questions! You all are seeing things I missed!
I think the book is so rich in allusion I go off on tangents.
I have LOVED your research on Fersen, the Oxyrhynchus Project, and Wilhelmina Jashemski. And none of these things, I think, are appearing here idly. I agree with Andrea this is a tightly constructed plot.
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Frybabe, I am so glad you enjoyed the Capasso DVD, it's the very latest in reconstruction of the ancient towns of Pompeii and Herculaneum, not available in this country, it's a treasure. It's making the rounds here, if anybody else would like to see it, email me at gvinesc@gmail.com, it's a treasure.
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LOTS of foreshadowing (page 158) " I suddenly have the same sensation that Phineas describes: the rites have begun."
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Everybody's thoughts here are fascinating on Maria and the possible interest in the box of the Church.
Would it surprise you to learn that in real life, according to Deiss, the house of Calatoria contained a Christian chapel? An entire room set aside with a cross on the wall. They don't know what to make of it.
According to Deiss: "Considering the arrangement of the upstairs rooms and their juxtaposition to the 'chapel,' it is an almost inescapable deduction that the upstairs tenants were associated with the new cult--- or in any case had responsibility for the use of the room."
The "new cult" here would be Christianity.
In addition somewhere in this book, those of you who take better notes than I do, where IS it, Phineas mentions seeing three things at some threshold: a mother and child, a fish, and one other thing which I can't remember to save my life: what was it? Surely these are Christian symbols?
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John Lyros has put Sophie in the same room Phineas had occupied, this cannot be an accident, how nice of him. I see him as another Jekyll Hyde figure, there seem to be a lot of those metamorphosing here.
more....
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week 2: Through Chapter 16:
The Game's Afoot!
1. What an exciting section! So many clues, so many mysteries!! What do you want to talk about first?
2. Who do you think was in the blue and white sailboat?
3. What cult do you think Iusta belongs to?
4. What is the meaning of the three squares, first at the table and then in the mail? Who do you think is sending them?
5. What do you think is Maria's real interest in the project?
6. How many themes of rebirth and resurrection are there in this section?
7. Can you shed some light on any of the following?
----Parthenope
----Agrai Mysteries
----Oxyrhynchus Project
----Petronii
----The Sibyl of Cumae
----Isis/ Apuleius
----Wilhelmina Jashemski
8. This would make a great movie. Who would you cast in the parts? Who do you see as Simon, John Lyros, Elgin and Sophie particularly?
9. How would you characterize the atmosphere on Capri?
10. What do you think John Lyros is actually after?
11. What did you like best in this section?
12. "We're all hungry for ritual, to experience something beyond the banality of everyday life, to stand outside of ourselves..." (Simon on page 150). When you think about it, who in this book is NOT in this condition? Why?
13. "Of course, " George says of the poppy on page 159, "just where Phineas finds it. Somehow was playing a little joke on you."
Who is the jokester here? Who is sending a poppy just where Phineas found it? Somebody who knows the story and the house. Who gains the most from replicating the Phineas story? WHAT is there TO replicate and why?
14. If you all had to bet on WHO at this point is the most sinister, who would get your vote? There is a tetraktys member among the group--who is it? (Pat)
--------Lyros: ginny
--------Agnes: bellamarie
--------Agnes: JudeS
--------Maria: PatH
15. How would the book have been different if they had waited to read the scrolls? Why did they not? (Sandy)
16. "Red symbolized the color of the underworld. Who left it on the statue?? What does it portend?" (countrymm)
17. How many operatives ARE there in this thing? Who are the good cops, who are the bad cops? Who is the sacrifice intended to be and why? Isn't Phineas a man? Why not pick a man? Who is leaving the cards? Why can't that person simply leave a message in English?
18. When he asked her what the sibyl said she said "She said nothing. She scribbled on a leaf three sentences:
Poseidon will enact his wrath.
The sea will take back what belongs to it.
The maiden shall be returned to her mother."
Is that Pythagorean, that 1-2-3?
Is that like the 3 questions that the Tetrkys ask themselves daily? (Andrea)
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The Rape of Persephone
Bernini 1621-24.
Rome (Villa Borghese)
Schedule
Chapters 10-16 for June 8 - 14
Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22
Chapters 25-End for June 23 - 30
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
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Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.
New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!
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We've been talking about the whipping scene shown in fresco? The only frescoes I know of like that are at the Villa of the Mysteries which is in Pompeii. Nobody knows what they actually show, but theories abound. Here's one site which deals with it, the whipping scene is Plate 7. These are not good likenesses but I have some three feet across, see if you can see some similarity between the facial features of the figures:
http://www.art-and-archaeology.com/timelines/rome/empire/vm/villaofthemysteries.html
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I also found a wonderful satellite map of Herculaneum, clearly showing the new construction and where the Villa of the Papyri is, do you think I can find it now? Er? hahaa but it is off to the left of the office as we said. I'll keep trying.
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Phineas Aulus is fictional, and I think Carol did a super job of making him up: his parallel story and the fact he knew Justa are also fictional.
However there is another author with a similar name, Apulieus, who also wrote a Metamorphoses or the Golden Ass and who also, believe it or not, has as a chief character a man who had many travels and adventures, and while during an interest in "the black arts," was transformed into an ass. After many adventures with robbers, he served one of the strange bands of the wandering priests of Cybele, and was initiated in the mysteries of the cult of Isis and Osiris, whereupon he resumed human form and became apparently the author Apulieus himself. This telling of the secret details according to the OCCL, "bears witness to the interest show in his day to Oriental religions." His day was A.D. 155.
I have a feeling that IF the trunk contained some of the mystery of the ages, the actual rites themselves written down, the clue to the Villa of the Mystery frescoes, or perhaps the lost Pythagoras writings with THAT mystery cult solved, it would be of paramount interest.
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We need to find out what this "multispherical" imaging IS and how it works, can anybody take that one on?
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I regret I was somewhat of an ass myself about Wilhelmina Jashemski, that woman made an incredible contribution. Her books (I have one) are so expensive they are like gold, and a LOT of the things she saw are simply gone. For instance the altar panels from the shrine of the house of Caecilius Iucundus in her book are forever missing, stolen. If it had not been for her and her meticulous research, a lot would not be known, despite the new discoveries. Thank you for the research you've done here in looking her up!
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Don't we have a WONDERFUL cliff hanger ending here on page 203? Simon and Agnes are still in there!
What a movie this would make!
I thought you might be interested in this:
Page 198: "We pass the boarded-up tunnels bored into the lower levels of the villa by eighteenth-century 'excavators,' (little better than tomb raiders)."
Here is an example in the Villa San Marco of the work of the earliest "excavators." Interestingly enough, the Villa of the Papyri was one of the early battle grounds between the King of the "Excavators," Joachim Alcubierre and the careful Swiss Karl Weber.
When Alcubierre was told by Charles III when Herculaneum was found at the bottom of a well to bring him the good stuff, Alcubierre proceeded to plow thru what he could (read Curran: The Lost World of Pompeii) like so:
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/alcubierre2.jpg)
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/alcubierre1.jpg)
Curran: "Mercilessly, he smashed through fresco-covered walls, tunneled through houses, removed brass lettering from walls and statues without first recording the inscriptions."
He didn't care what he destroyed in the way of artifacts or where he found them, he just dragged the best stuff to the top, the king's man Paderni took what he wanted, they destroyed by hammer (!!) the rest, and discarded.
He made fun of Weber's careful work (shown in the heading as the floor plan of the Villa dei Papiri) and measurements, and Alcubierre "often caused wanton destruction of buildings simply to prevent Weber from recording them." Weber's work was so accurate it's off only by the slightest small fractions of error, an amazing feat.
Now they try to be diplomatic, saying, for instance in the Villa San Marco that they would not have found the kitchens (seen partially in the gaping hole) had it not been for the early tunneling, (they would not do that type of wanton destruction). And since most of Charles III's stuff ended up in the National Museum at Naples (MANN), they feel it was not a total wash.
Jude:
When I learned the Odyssey Odyseus tied himself to the mast so he wouldn't be tempted by the Sirens song. Yes he had himself tied to the mast as on the vase, but left off the wax so he could hear the famous sirens song, the men had wax in their ears and did not hear it, right.
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On the bottom of page 158, the "poppy" is identified as the "flower of Night." That makes sense, since it's somniferum: bearing (ferum) sleep (think sominex and somnambulist: sleep walker).
"Of course, " George says of the poppy on page 159, "just where Phineas finds it. Somehow was playing a little joke on you."
Who is the jokester here? Who is sending a poppy just where Phineas found it? Somebody who knows the story and the house. Who gains the most from replicating the Phineas story? WHAT is there TO replicate and why?
Is Sophie supposed to be Phineas? Then who is going to be Iusta? Why on earth would anybody recreate this? Perhaps they hoped to find the mysteries explained? Phineas' chest was empty, so...er....
What about these strange sets of three cards? Can you make any rime or reason out of what's on those cards? Let's try?
First they are on the table then they come by mail. Somebody is trying to communicate SOMETHING. Why don't they just come out with it? Why all the mystery?
What do YOU think is going on? I know I'd be a long way from this bunch of monkeys, I don't trust any of them. Who is going to play the modern day "Iusta," and who "Phineas?"
??
Inquiring minds want to know what you think!
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Ginny, pg 183 " Above the doorway, scratched in the stone, were three signs: a boat, a woman holding a child, and a crudely drawn fish."
Ginny, "Would it surprise you to learn that in real life, according to Deiss, the house of Calatoria contained a Christian chapel? An entire room set aside with a cross on the wall."
Well nothing would surprise me anymore.
I happened to be looking for your three symbols in my notes and came across something else I had written down. Phinea says to Calatoria, pg.124 "Yes, my own impressions recorded in a journal I have kept over the years ans some other texts...old books sold to me by priests to increase the wealth of their shrines, sacred texts that I found moldering in bookshops, philosophical treatises copied over by temple slaves and sold on the black market of Alexandria. You'd be amazed at the traffic in magical secrets practiced in the bazaars of the East-its enough to tarnish one's belief in these relligions when so often there's a price attached to their mysteries."
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Ginny....WOW!!!!!! Your pictures always astound me. Thank you for taking the time to give us the visuals along with our text. Our imaginations could never do them justice.
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I am so glad you like them! What a mystery we have here, it's hard to keep the players straight@@
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Good one on page 183, thank you! Could not find that reference to save my life. This has got to mean something!
:)
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I came back in to ask another question. If you all had to bet on WHO at this point is the most sinister, who would get your vote?
I vote for Lyros!!! HE is spooky! hhahahaa
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I came back in also to answer Frybabe who caught a glimpse of some film footage on TV of the eruption of Vesuvius. That is probably part of the fascinating (mostly black and white) footage of the last eruption in 1944.
The best photo in fact of the eruption of Vesuvius comes from American bombers. This entire footage which is spellbinding comes if you can get it, in a DVD called The Wrath of God. This stunning DVD shows the people of a nearby city in Italy (I can't remember the name of it either) who were complacent in 1944 when Vesuvius erupted as they recalled a prior eruption when it went exactly so far, the older folks were children when it erupted and it went just so far, they will show you, so they waited for it to do the same in 1944: a lava flow previously. But this time in 1944 it was a different kind of explosion (tho not anything like in 79AD) lots of Allied planes were destroyed at the air base there (these are shown) and it shows the reaction after 2000 years, a parallel: of people literally fleeing with all their possessions, holding things over their heads (just like the ancients were found) processing thru the streets in religious processions and standing on their rooftops shoveling off the debris from the volcano.
We have to remember that in 79AD the eruption of Vesuvius and the 6 pyroclastic flows it threw out were freaks of nature, dependent on a freak wind, the last two eruptions were not like that, at all. Darn good thing.
It is absolutely stunning if you can get your hands on it. The National Geographic also has a DVD called Volcano: Nature's Inferno which is probably the best all around one you can find anywhere, which also includes a bit on Pompeii, with rare footage of pyroclastic flows including one which unfortunately took the lives of their cameramen the Krafts.
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Ginny..."If you all had to bet on WHO at this point is the most sinister, who would get your vote?"
At this second I would have to say AGNES!!! I better hurry and send this because I could change my mind in the next second. She has too much going on around her. I'm still tyring to figure out how she knew about the Mermaid shows Sophie went to as a child. It's not a coincidence and it tells Agnes has more personal info on Sophie than she should. hmmmmmmm Where or who did she learn this from?
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http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/POxy/multi/index.html
Here is something from the Oxyrhynchus Project site that Gumtree listed a day or so ago regarding multispectal imaging. There is a Flash Player bit you can try. My flash player isn't working in Firefox but perhaps it will work for some of you. Check it out.
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Ho!! sweet little Agnes? hahaha
How about Sophie herself? Do we trust her still? Is she reliable in this section?
HERE it is, at last at last, from the Friends of Herculaneum Society, this is super, if you scroll all the way down to the bottom two photos, you can see the outlines of the Villa dei Papiri (the take off for the fictional Villa Della Notte and John Icky Lyros's reproduction of same) in relation to the ruins of Herculaneum!
YAY!
http://www.herculaneum.ox.ac.uk/herculaneumarchaeology/Suppl1/DeSimone.html
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Ginny, what a wonderful site you provided. Too bad I wasn't aware of this project when I visited the Bodleian Library at Oxford several years ago. My son was teaching at Oxford then. He is a paleobiologist and does continuing archaelogical work every October in Egypt. His interest is human evolution though, not papyrus scrolls!
http://www.herculaneum.ox.ac.uk/herculaneumarchaeology/Suppl1/DeSimone.html
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Ginny,
I meant to tell you that I loved the colors in the photos you posted. To me the photos looked like beautiful artwork done in pastels. I wouldn't mind using those colors in my home. Timeless.....
OK, I must get off the computer. It's holding me hostage. I have friends coming here for bridge tonight and I MUST get things done.
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Looking for a Villain are you?
It just can't be Sophie. She was physically weak but getting stronger all the time . She was naive in her understanding of other people but is wising up all the time.
She seems to me the Heroic type-the solver of mysteries rather than the villain.
In most mysteries the villain is the one you least suspect. So I would go with the Golden haired, apple cheeked lady, Agnes,
just because I least suspect her because of the innocent demeanor.
Romancing the Stone is the name of an article in this weeks NEWSWEEK (pgs 62&63) that deals with the theft of the Elgin marbles and Greeces efforts to get them back. The Greeks have just completed a beautiful new Archeological Museum that was built to house the marbles when they grt them back (if they do).
A glass floor in the new Acropolis Museum showcases a dig in progress. I will just quote a wee bit from this interesting article.
"When the seventh Earl of Elgin took up residence in the embassy in Constantinople in 1799, he began to pursue his passion for classical antiquities. He sent emissaries on a mission to Athens, which was a shabby little outpost that had been under the Ottoman thumb for 400 years. ...........the Ottoman Sultan granted his crew access to the Acropolis...nor may they hinder them from taking away any pieces of stone with inscriptions and figures. Politics was at play here at least as much as art appreciation."
What we are seeing in our novel is again a fight over ownership of very precious documents and art.
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JudeS, What an interesting article.
Don't forget its also about revealing things that could "tarnish ones belief in these religions." The Catholic church I am assuming has much to gain and much to lose monetarily, philosophically, theologically, politically and scandalously. For me they stand to gain or lose the most.
I'm trying to sort through the facts and fictions of the possible finds and characters.
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Reading all your posts has been very interesting to say the least. At first I was not sure if I read the same book...so I am reading it again with you. Here is my two cents...
Sophie--Page 196, I'm too angry to call him back, too proud to run after him. Women in so many books are portrayed with this attitude--get their backs up and want to do all themselves...She gets angry with Elgin,always trying to insist she is over him (I don't think so), while still pining (I think) over Ely. Miss "I do not want to hear it" was not forced to go on this project. Furthermore if it were me I would be very interested that this guy is helping the FBI and would want to hear all about it and be a part of the investigation. I guess that might be boring though.
11. What did you like best in this section?
I like in Chapter 16, page 202, ...Sophie reading George's scan...But listen, this is how the section George just scanned ends: My confidence in my mastery of the situation dissolved, however, when I entered my room. My trunk lay open....dum, da, dum, da.....
would have changed the story some if they had waited to read the scrolls. Haste makes waste ;)
Ginny asks....Is Sophie supposed to be Phineas? Then who is going to be Iusta? Why on earth would anybody recreate this? I think someone is planning for Sophie to die. Probably it is thought Phineas was sacrificed in the rites.
I think Iusta was a Christian or becoming one...the signs (page 183) above the doorway are signs of Christianity. This would make it difficult for her (if she were real) to be part of these rites she said she was born for.
Ginny, thank you for the pictures and the Friends of Herculaneum link. Wow!
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Wow! I don't have trouble reading the book, but keeping up with all these posts is harder. You almost don't have time to go to the bathroom before there are more, much less take a couple of days off. I'll try to fill in a couple of things I've thought of.
Most sinister character: there is a tetraktys member among the group--who is it? John Lyros is the obvious suspect. There is the unexplained 5 year gap in his life for the 5 year silence, and now he is devoting his considerable wealth to projects which could conceivably add to the knowledge the cult needs. But that's too obvious. If he is a tetraktys, maybe there's another one too. My candidate, in the most unlikely suspect vein, would be Maria. When the wax-lined chest turns out to be empty, she immediately does some furious communicating on her laptop, then goes off citing "urgent family business". This would fit tetraktys business involving a manuscript suspected to be in the chest.
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Poppies: since a number of you are Californians, I have to put in a word for your state flower, the California poppy--harmless and magnificent.
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1039_600-2.jpg)
I took this at the Point Reyes whale watching station, where JoanK and I go a lot.
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PatH,
Marvelous photo of the California Poppy. I'm a Californian and loves these flowers.
However, in Night Villa we have the ominous red poppy to deal with. Red symbolized the color of the underworld. Who left it on the statue?? and what does it portend?
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PatH,
Marvelous photo of the California Poppy. I'm a Californian and loves these flowers.
However, in Night Villa we have the ominous red poppy to deal with. Red symbolized the color of the underworld. Who left it on the statue?? and what does it portend?
You're right, countrymm, I was digressing, which is my strong point, but, as you say, what about the red poppy? Color of the underworld, symbol of death, bringer of sleep, a part of the pagan ritual which we all suspect someone is trying to resurrect, it's got to be important, but I'm not sure how.
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Sophie tended to ignore a lot of things and countrymmm's words got me to thinking....
countrymm, "However, in Night Villa we have the ominous red poppy to deal with. Red symbolized the color of the underworld. Who left it on the statue?? and what does it portend?"
Interesting word choice, during Sophie's hallucinations on pg 24-25 "If only you had heeded the portents and signs! The code of rings, the message of the tower, the sign of fire in Odette's skin! Only a blind person could have failed to see what was coming!"
Definition for: portent....a sign or omen portend.......to predict or foretell
The code of rings..."It's the number sequence that's clued me in: 3-4-5, the simplest representation of the Pythagorean theorem. Ely was obsessed with it."
The message of the tower....."Charles Whittman barricaded himself on the twenty-eighth-floor observation deck and picked off fourteen people with his arsenal of weapons..."
The sign of fire in Odette's skin..."The orange in her dress and matching head cloth more than suits her, its casts a warm glow on her dark skin that's like a flame burnishing her cheekbones and toned biceps."
So now Sophie has 6 more clue cards..Man sweeping with a broom, frying pan, sun, smiling crescent moon, a man falling down a flight of stairs, and a masked man.
If there is anything that I can connect to all of these clues it is someone knows the destiny of the future, which would only mean one thing. There is a Sibyl among the crowd as far back as the beginning of the book, because Sibyls are the only ones who could foretell the future that I am aware of. So if this is the case, who might it be? Possibly M'Lou? She did go off the radar. How about our dear sweet (NOT) Agnes?
Is it a coincidence that Sophie's Mom was 17 when she gave birth to her, and the initiates occur when the girls reach the age of 17?
Okay off to bed for me!
Ciao for now....................
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Two of my worst fears--being trapped in a confined space and not being able to breathe--are factors in the book. I already commented on how Goodman's tone when Sophie was having breathing problems felt totally accurate to me. Now we have the scene in the grotto, where Agnes takes Sophie swimming. If you go on out to sunbathe, you can only get back by swimming through an underwater tunnel. If you go back at high tide, the grotto is also underwater, and you have to swim through it too before catching your breath. Aside from the fact that Agnes had no business taking a pneumonia convalescent on such an excursion, the whole setup really creeps me out. I'm sure someone, probably Sophie, will have to swim that stretch to escape or save someone, and just barely make it.
I realize I spoke too soon describing Maria's reaction to the empty chest; it occurs 4 pages beyond this week's assignment (I've read 10 pages farther). But at least it's not a spoiler.
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ROFLMAO......PatH, if its confession time, I too read ahead only a few pages and felt so guilty I had to stop. Mea Culpa! Mea Culpa! Mea Maxima Culpa!
I like the way you think about Sophie needing to use that escape route down the road. I can see the scene of narrowly escaping on the movie screen.
This time I really am going to bed. Got busy researching and lost track of time. That's okay I have a day off tomorrow!!!
Ciao for now.............
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Wowee!! Welcome Sandy! I love your take on Sophie, so here's one reader definitely not in her camp:
Women in so many books are portrayed with this attitude--get their backs up and want to do all themselves...She gets angry with Elgin,always trying to insist she is over him (I don't think so), while still pining (I think) over Ely. Miss "I do not want to hear it" was not forced to go on this project.
No she was not! I think you are the first person to take a somewhat....critical look at our Sophie, she's meant to be us? So the question remains why did she go? That question is off the heading but it's in the former ones, maybe page 8 and back, why?
I love that "Miss I do not want to hear it." Let's keep this thread in mind too, Sandy did not fall for the first person narrator, it looks like she's not identifying with Sophie as she was supposed to! Love it!
This is one reason I love our book discussions, just LOOKIT you all this morning, all over the place AND we've only got a couple of days left in this section till we move on.
Glad you liked the pictures, Sandy. :)
So here's a good question (am putting these new questions in the heading today): would have changed the story some if they had waited to read the scrolls. Haste makes waste
Why do you suppose they did not? And at the end of this chapter John Lyros comes rushing back all concerned, Simon and Agnes are trapped! ? People are rushing around on their own here, is there a lack of coordination?
Or something else?
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Frybabe (Margie) Thank you for that link to the imaging, it's like the link I put to the Friends of Herculaneum, full of chests of treasure, very fine! Your post was done in the middle of a lot of simultaneous postings and I missed it, but it's super, thank you.
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Pat H, no time to go to the bathroom? hahahaha We can't have that! We'll have to factor in potty breaks. hahahaa
John Lyros too obvious? hmmm Maria then? AHA! I'll put that in the heading, I still think Lyros is a skunk.
Elgin has pretty much disappeared this section as the others come out, hasn't he?. Sandy thinks Justa may be a Christian and Bellamarie tackled the cards. I can't make heads or tails out of the cards, but the combination of the falling down the stairs (one of my own secret fears which just came true about a month ago...how do those models walk down those stair cases never holding on, I have NEVER been able to do that) and those stairs to the grotto really tell me something to do with stairs is coming.
Funny how Sandy quoted Sophie as saying you'd have to be blind to miss the portents, and now when they are screaming at her, and she's kind of oblivious...er...I'd be SO out of there, so sorry, major problem at home with dog, I'm out of here. I mean, card falling down stairs put on her table, hello? She's in Phineas's room (who put her there, hmmm?) parallels all over the place and Agnes can translate as well as she can. I would be saying, you don't need me guys, I'm outta here.
Gorgeous flower, thank you so much for that photo, Pat! Can we use it for the website? I've planted poppies here in SC till my face ran blue, nothing. I think they have to reseed and they can't here for some reason. I am envious of CA with its poppies so fabulous, totally envious. But not of their lack of seasons. :)
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Good stuff on the red color and the combination of death and drugs at the same time, countrymm, and bellamarie. Good question, countrymm, I'm putting it in the heading.
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Oh Pat made a point that reminds me of something:
Agnes takes Sophie swimming. If you go on out to sunbathe, you can only get back by swimming through an underwater tunnel. If you go back at high tide, the grotto is also underwater, and you have to swim through it too before catching your breath. Aside from the fact that Agnes had no business taking a pneumonia convalescent on such an excursion, the whole setup really creeps me out..
OH I forgot! Not only here as you went on to say you're sure somebody will have to make that swim (foreshadowing) BUT when I read that I stopped dead at Agnes's saying oh I did not realize that the tide would be this high at this time. Hello? She's been there for some time, she goes all the time, she knows (the Shadow knows) when the tides are high for her own sake, yet she deliberately and "innocently" takes Sophie there. And as Sophie has already surmised, WHOM has Elgin told about her raving about her mother in the Aquamarina Springs? I bet you a dollar it was Agnes.
Agnes! I may have to change here my opinion. I still think John Lyros is a skunk. I'll add Pat's question about who is the Tetratkys (can't spell word) member to the heading, good one!
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Bella that was a fantastic thing on color you did. We need to keep your posts like that in our Reader's Guide, very close reading! Thank you.
Am still trying to figure out the Odette character and why she is in the book, at least I've stopped calling her M'Lou. hahahaa
OK so I guess one topic du jour among the many new ones at the bottom of the heading is how many operatives ARE there in this thing? Who are the good cops, who are the bad cops? Who is the sacrifice intended to be and why? Isn't Phineas a man? Why not pick a man?
Who is leaving the cards? Why are they so stupid? What's wrong with "watch your back and don't go down stairs?" Don't go anywhere with XXX?
Leaving cards?
Who is the Tetratkys secret member? Are there spies within spies? Operatives within operatives? If I told you that there's an honor Classics Society which initiates in 2009 (harmlessly) in a candle lit ceremony (no whips), no stairs, no cards, would you be surprised?
Who is set up to die here, to recreate the Phineas story and for Pete's sake WHY?
Inquiring minds want to know what you've noticed or what you think about any of this because Monday we move on (or is it down, to the grotto again?)
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I was rereading Elgins and Sophie discussion about his spying.. Where did the belief that Phineas had a copy of Pythagoras book come from. Why do I suspect that Eli is about to pop up.. Hmm.
Off to create more confusion. The rv must be packed carefully for long trips or whatever you need is at the bottom of something.
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A good morning to you all today. I was up last night (@3 AM) reading your posts Bella and Pat, but my eyes refused to cooperate when I tried to look back through our assigned chapters.
I see Ginny is up bright and early with more questions for us. I am so pleased that she has identified more issues that you've raised but SHE is the slave driver of our operation. As soon as I start to figure out a clue, she has thrown another one into the pot for me to consider and mull over.
I am still stumped on one issue that may be relevant or not, I don't know.
on pg 123 Calatoria, speaking with Phineus, says that 7 days ago she went to the sibyl.
When he asked her what the sibyl said she said "She said nothing. She scribbbled on a leaf three sentnces:
Poseidon will enact his wrath.
The sea will take back what belongs to it.
The maiden shall be returned to her mother."
Is that Pythagorean, that 1-2-3?
Is that like the 3 questions that the Tetrkys ask themselves daily?
Steph is off wondering if Eli is about to return! There are some clues pointing to that, that's for sure, Steph.
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I am reading this book but I guess I am just not smart enough for all of you people. I need to get on with all this or give it up.
Joan Grimes
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Welcome, Joan!! What are your thoughts on the book? You're plenty smart enough for anybody, jump right in, so good to see you!
Andrea I've put your question in the heading, it's a good one!
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Now I happen to know Ms. Grimes that that is not true.
There are so many thoughts flying here, just pick one that interests you in the book and let 'er fly. Welcome.
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How weird is that Ginny? Almost at the same time, we are.
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Yes, Ginny, I took the picture of the poppy. Use it if you want to. Here's the link:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1039_600-2.jpg (http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1039_600-2.jpg)
And here's the picture from which it was cropped and downsized, in case you want to crop it differently.
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1039.jpg (http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1039.jpg)
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If I gave you the wrong link from the 4 available to me, let me know.
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I told you one doesn't even have time to go to the bathroom.
Joan, don't be ridiculous, we all know you're at least as smart as the rest of us.
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Ginny, thank you for that link to Friends of Herculaneum Society. Besides the article itself, there are so many other good links, including a virtual tour of Herculaneum.
PatH – your poppy just blew me away. Gorgeous. What kind of camera, settings, etc.? -- just saw your link to photobucket. Will go.
Oh boy, you all have raised so many questions and I’ve gone back to rereading to see if there are asnwers. Not really. Maybe I’ll just be a devil’s advocate.
Why do so many of you dislike John Lyros? Because he’s rich and has purple eyes? I haven’t seen anything so far that makes him a bad guy? He’s solicitious of Sophie and Agnes, maybe developing an interest in Sophie. He frowned when she took Elgin’s arm to go into dinner. He’s pretty smoothe, which may count against him, and there’s that five-year gap. He does try to quash Simon’s tales – partly because they upset Agnes and also because he doesn’t want to be rumored about, as was Baron F. He’s funding the excavation of the VdNotte, but has he become obsessed with his own reproduction? And now that’s why he’s so anxious to see the scrolls. He could be crazy and a control freak.
The swimming – It was Sophie who asked Agnes to go swimming – at George’s suggestion. He seems been pretty much a stable sort of guy, kind of a pacifier. But is he.
Elgin is coming across as smelling like a rose. He may be Professor Romeo in Austin, but he’s been a perfect gentleman in Italy. Why is Sophie so antaganistic about him going to Sorrento? The reason that he found her in the Hotel C is that he was coming to ask her to go with him. I thought Sophie was really cruel, brutal with her comment to him on p.195 – “A lot of good you did when Dale Henry burst into that conference room. If I remember correctly you dived under the table with me.” That was uncalled for. Can’t blame the guy for being stunned and turning cold.
I thought it was really sweet of him to remember the sonnet that Sophie had written about W. Jamenshki.
Before this gets too long – Jody Foster as Sophie?
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Pat, Marcie put it up the second you gave the ok, it's gorgeous, have you seen it yet? Thank you!
Pedln, I love that site also (Friends of Herculaneum). I like any "Friends of..." group, especially the Friends of Highgate.
And I think Jodie Foster would be perfect as Sophie!
Window washers need to do the window behind computer here, back later on why I think John Lyros is a skunk!
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I've been thinking about those symbols at the house Iusta enters when Phineas follows her - the mother and child, the fish, and was the third one a boat ?
In Ch 15 Elgin says "The symbols sound like they could be associated with Isis" and Simon adds..."The only details we know of the Rites of Isis are from Apulius and those are quite tantalising"
Isis was the patron saint of woman, magic, agriculture and much else besides. Scholars have also made comparisons between Isis worship in Roman times and the cult of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Will Durant (History of Civilisation) wrote that :
"Early Christians sometimes worshipped before the statues of Isis suckling the infant Horus, seeing in them another form of the ancient and noble myth by which woman (i.e) the female principle), creating all things, becomes at last the Mother of God."
So it's quite possible that Iusta is a Christian bearing in mind that she was very taken with the statuette Phineas gave her of Isis and Horus - perhaps she equated them with Mary and Jesus.
I think the Tetraktys member in the group is Lyros simply because of the five year gap in his CV - though when I think about it that just seems to be too pat a coincidence.
To me the real fifth columnist is Ely - though he is not physically present (unless that really was him on the sailboat), he has been ever present throughout the story so far by way of being continually in Sophie's thoughts.
I find Maria is a bit of a worry too! She's an archeologist but all she seems to do is watch proceedings.
Love the way we get the content of Sophie's meals especially while she's recuperating from the pneumonia - tomatoes et al. There's been a lot of interest in the health benefits of tomatoes lately and while we have them regularly I must say that I seem to be eating a lot more of them while reading this book - taking a leaf out of Sophie's book (so to speak). I keep buying these perfectly ripe Baby Roma variety -just a mouthful in each but when I bite into them the flavour explodes in the mouth - I'm not so keen on the mozzarella but they go well with the nutty flavour of a good Swiss cheese - well, any cheese for that matter . A few crackers and a glass of something - Yum!
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I've seen it and you're right it's gorgeous! Thanks Pat,
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pedln, you said, "Elgin is coming across as smelling like a rose. He may be Professor Romeo in Austin, but he’s been a perfect gentleman in Italy. Why is Sophie so antagonistic about him going to Sorrento? The reason that he found her in the Hotel C is that he was coming to ask her to go with him. I thought Sophie was really cruel, brutal with her comment to him on p.195 – “A lot of good you did when Dale Henry burst into that conference room. If I remember correctly you dived under the table with me.” That was uncalled for. Can’t blame the guy for being stunned and turning cold."
And I agree. We didn't really get to "see" much about Elgin in Texas (problem with first person narrator who has her own problems with him). Now that there's some action happening, we can see him more clearly, though still through the clouded lens of Sophie.
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I'm so upset I could scream....I just spent the entire morning researching and typing and lost it all when I minimized to go include a site link.....................grrrr I'll try again later.
pedln....Jody Foster as Sophie? hmmm have to think about that. Jody has a rough around the edges in her acting. She freaked me out in the movie where she killed that guy for killing her husband and then tried to get away with it. She shot him in cold blood and had NO remorse. Still gives me chills when I think of it.
Do you think Sophie could kill someone who had done her wrong ?
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Deems help me out here so I don't go way out on the limb! Your daddy was a preacher and so is my son so betweenthe two of us we should be able to come up with this dilemma of the fish, boat, mother, child, etc.
Of course the Christian take of the mother/child would be The Blessed Mary and son, Jesus.
mother/child- does this figure in our story, besides the histories that we've read of Sophie and Agnus'es parental dilemmas, et al? And Gumtree mentions Isis, the goddess of motherhood and fertility. hmmmm----
The fish well that's easy as well. Jesus included many fishermen in his circle, John was a fisherman, and fish was a staple in the diet.
The initial letters of each word in the Greek phrase "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior" form the word ICHTHUS, which means "fish."
Now we get into the fact that the fish symbol has been used for millennia worldwide as a religious symbol associated with the Pagan Great Mother Goddess. It is the outline of her vulva.
Oh boy! Am I getting in here too deeply?
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Pedl- good defense for our boy John. You hang with him, we'll see.
Gumtree while you're munching on the tomatoes you have hit on a great thought.
So it's quite possible that Iusta is a Christian bearing in mind that she was very taken with the statuette Phineas gave her of Isis and Horus - perhaps she equated them with Mary and Jesus.
Don't you love the description of the Angry Elgin when we wanted to speak privately to Sophie:
"Elgin's head moves back abruptly an his nostrils flare, looking a bit like the angry cobra on Isis's headress...."
Are we getting a glimpse of this snake or is he just nervously awaiting to tell her about the FBI? When that popped into the story I said "What the Hey?" Why in the world are there agents there to begin with?
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I apologize but I can not find WHO it was that asked where it said anything about the original Pythagoras scroll and why someone thought that phineas was in possession of it. Well, it seems that the FbI is there because of that interest. They believe that Pythagoras's Golden Verses were real and the Phineas had a copy with him when
Vesuvius erupted.
Really Deems, if someone rushed in, waving a gun I would be the very first to dive for cover. That of course would be AFTER I tried to talk him out of shooting anyone.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week 2: Through Chapter 16:
The Game's Afoot!
1. What an exciting section! So many clues, so many mysteries!! What do you want to talk about first?
2. Who do you think was in the blue and white sailboat?
3. What cult do you think Iusta belongs to?
4. What is the meaning of the three squares, first at the table and then in the mail? Who do you think is sending them?
5. What do you think is Maria's real interest in the project?
6. How many themes of rebirth and resurrection are there in this section?
7. Can you shed some light on any of the following?
----Parthenope
----Agrai Mysteries
----Oxyrhynchus Project
----Petronii
----The Sibyl of Cumae
----Isis/ Apuleius
----Wilhelmina Jashemski
8. This would make a great movie. Who would you cast in the parts? Who do you see as Simon, John Lyros, Elgin and Sophie particularly?
9. How would you characterize the atmosphere on Capri?
10. What do you think John Lyros is actually after?
11. What did you like best in this section?
12. "We're all hungry for ritual, to experience something beyond the banality of everyday life, to stand outside of ourselves..." (Simon on page 150). When you think about it, who in this book is NOT in this condition? Why?
13. "Of course, " George says of the poppy on page 159, "just where Phineas finds it. Somehow was playing a little joke on you."
Who is the jokester here? Who is sending a poppy just where Phineas found it? Somebody who knows the story and the house. Who gains the most from replicating the Phineas story? WHAT is there TO replicate and why?
14. If you all had to bet on WHO at this point is the most sinister, who would get your vote? There is a tetraktys member among the group--who is it? (Pat)
--------Lyros: ginny
--------Agnes: bellamarie
--------Agnes: JudeS
--------Maria: PatH
15. How would the book have been different if they had waited to read the scrolls? Why did they not? (Sandy)
16. "Red symbolized the color of the underworld. Who left it on the statue?? What does it portend?" (countrymm)
17. How many operatives ARE there in this thing? Who are the good cops, who are the bad cops? Who is the sacrifice intended to be and why? Isn't Phineas a man? Why not pick a man? Who is leaving the cards? Why can't that person simply leave a message in English?
18. When he asked her what the sibyl said she said "She said nothing. She scribbled on a leaf three sentences:
Poseidon will enact his wrath.
The sea will take back what belongs to it.
The maiden shall be returned to her mother."
Is that Pythagorean, that 1-2-3?
Is that like the 3 questions that the Tetrkys ask themselves daily? (Andrea)
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The Rape of Persephone
Bernini 1621-24.
Rome (Villa Borghese)
Schedule
Chapters 10-16 for June 8 - 14
Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22
Chapters 25-End for June 23 - 30
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
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Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.
New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!
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Andrea--No fair! You do the two easy ones--mother and child and fish and leave me BOAT????
I'll try to come up with something. Meanwhile contact your son. Just in case. ::)
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Boat--top of my head. Many of the disciples were fishermen--come with me and I will make you fishers of men. Jesus winds up on a boat, several times--when he walked on the water and when the storm came up and the disciples had to wake him because they were terrified. That time he calmed the storm.
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Boat with Link to more about boat.
Yes, boat/ship was an early symbol of the church. There's a cool drawing of a ship at this site http://www.jesuswalk.com/christian-symbols/ship.htm (http://www.jesuswalk.com/christian-symbols/ship.htm) as well as other information, such as a comparison to Noah's ark and Jesus with the disciples on the boat on the Sea of Galilee, etc.
Next time I get the easy symbols. I'm making myself a note.
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Gumtree, I loved the food descriptions, too, especially the tomatoes. However, being somewhat food-obsessed, I noticed that on page 122 lunch is "a delicious pasta dish with a sauce made from eggplants, sardines, and raisins" and on page 146 the pasta course for supper is "a thin spaghetti prepared with the delicious anchovy and eggplant sauce that I had for lunch yesterday". I can't help it; I think along those lines.
Pedln, it was a Canon PowerShot A540 digital camera. It has a wildflower setting, which I used, dunno just what it does, and sets the rest automatically, in this case 1/400 sec at f/5.5 (the sun was really bright).
Deems, I totally agree that we are not getting an objective picture of Elgin from Sophie, but any professor who seduces his TAs has a lot of redeeming to do before I could think well of him.
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Hmmm. I always thought of Isis and Osiris as Egyptian Deities. Seeing as you all see them as Greco-Roman deities I went in search of the reason for this discrepancy. Here is an iota of the tons of material I read. I tried to choose the facts that relate in some way to the material in our book.
Isis was an ancient Egyptian Goddess who much later spread to the Graeco-Roman world. She was worshipped as the ideal mother and goddess of fertility. and the friend of slaves, sinners and the downtrodden. In much later myths she had a brother Osirus who became her husband. They had a son, Horus.
She is also known as the Goddess of simplicity from whom all begginnings arose and was lady of bread, beer and green fields. The worship of Isis continued in the Greco-Roman world continuing until the suppression of Paganism in the Christain Era. She had her own temple in Pompei.
Isis's original headress was that of a thrown. She is an important representation of the Pharoahs power. There are pictures of pharoah sitting on Isis lap.
Throughout the Roman-Greco world Isis became one of the most significant of the MYSTERY RELIGIONs and many classicalwriters refer to her temples, cults and rites.
The articles delve into the use of knots and magical powers. But I will add only one more interesting fact: Duriing the Roman period the rose was used in her worship turning rose production into an important industry
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Pat H--I agree that no professor should seduce a student (or respond to a student's advances, for that matter) BUT do we have anyone's word--other than Sophie's--that Elgin seduced anyone other than her? And do we know, even, that he was the one who did the seducing??
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BUT do we have anyone's word--other than Sophie's--that Elgin seduced anyone other than her? And do we know, even, that he was the one who did the seducing??[/b]
Right, Deems, we only have Sophie's word for everything, and she isn't a reliable witness.
On page 15, Odette says "I'm not sure going to Italy with Professor Romeo is the best thing for that girl (Agnes)", suggesting Elgin has a reputation.
On page 52, Elgin, trying to persuade Sophie to come to Italy, says "So what about it? You know you want to." Sophie: "It's unfortunate that he's using the same words he used five years ago to seduce me." That makes him seem to be the seducer, but it could be out of context.
Since everything is filtered through Sophie, we still don't know.
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Pedln, I agree with you regarding John Lyros. I don't see him as particularly ominous, but maybe HE was the member from Tet (Tetraktys).
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Deems- GOOD GRIEF, STOP WHINING! It IS NOT POLITE. I DON'T OFTEN GET A CHOICE when you guys gang up on me with YOUR therories. ;D
--- and frankly how the heck would she know who else Elgin or Ely of John or any of them seduced? She is being seduced by Phineas at the moment (in her studies.)
Countrymm- that seems to be the problem, we are each one us, all over the place with these characters. (Isn't it fun, guessing & speculating, who might be who(m)??
Who IS that masked man that sits quietly?
Jude- why do you thing that she is important in our discussion? Why has the author included her?
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ALF43--Not whining, just grumbling. Next time don't leave me with the boat. Unless it's a nice cabin cruiser. Or a yacht. A yacht would be nice, very nice.
Pat H--Good point about Odette and her instructions, but doesn't she say that when she's an hallucination? I can't look it up easily because I'm reading the book on Kindle. Wait a minute, if it's as early as p. 15, I guess it's the real Odette and not the hallucinated one.
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Right, Odette says it when they're fussing around with coffee before the ill-fated interview session starts.
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yes - Odette's comment about "Professor Romeo' may only refer to his liaison with Sophie and not to other students...and was Sophie his student at the time or was she on staff.
PatH I loved the anchovies and sardines too....Our Fremantle sardines are really something else - large, juicy and so so tasty after a moment or two on the grill. Not so keen on the garum though - didn't Ginny put up an ancient recipe for a garumsauce that would turn anyone off forever - I seem to recall that the fishy mixture had to be left in the hot sun for a few days...ugh!
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Andrea, I will help out with the boat. In Ovid's Metamorphoses he talks about the flood and says,
"Save few that by the help of boats atteyned unto him." Noah's ark.
I spent the day researching Poseidon, watched the Little Mermaid movie for the first time in its entirety, and read Ovid's Metamorphoses for the first time.
Ovid pretty much follows the doctrine of the Catholic faith in his poem. He denounces all the gods and goddesses, all the Sibyls, Mythology and even pretty much Pythagoras. He states there is but one God who created all things. He covers Genesis, all the virtues, and to sum it up without doing him any disrespect or injustice to his great work, he follows the teachings of the Bible. He says to stay your faith in God, and I like this particularly.."of vertue heere have after death an everlasting crowne...."
Now for Poseidon and the Little Mermaid they are in unison with the battle for power. Triton is the King of the sea and ruler of mer people. Triton is a merman (half fish/half man) he has a trident (spear with 3 points) that is his power and magic. Poseidon has the same trident and uses it to destroy and kill things.
King Triton (Sea king and ruler of Mer people) was the father of Ariel, he carried his trident (3 pronged magic spear) with him. Ariel was 16 years old and headstrong, wanted to live on the land, be human and marry a human. Ariel swims above the sea and sees a ship with Prince Eric on it. A lightening bolt hits the ship during a hurricane and causes a fire. Eric falls into the water after getting hit and is drowning. Ariel saves him and sings while he is unconscious. Ariel returns to the sea and sings of wanting to live on land and falling in love with Eric. Ursula the (sea witch) used to live in the Palace and was exiled. She wanted to outsmart Triton so she could gain his crown and trident so she will become the Queen of the sea. Ursula sees Ariel has fallen in love with Eric and says, “Its too easy she is in love.” Ariel swims to Ursula, Ursula has magic potion to make Ariel human. She makes an agreement with Ariel that she will make her human and Ariel has 3 days to get Prince Eric to fall in love with her and kiss her or she returns to being a mermaid. Ursula knew Triton would come to save Ariel because he loved his daughter. To make it more difficult Ursula takes Ariel's voice from her so she can not sing and Prince Eric will not know who she is. Ariel goes on land, Prince Eric seems to be falling in love with her so Ursula changes herself into a fair maiden and uses Ariel's voice to trick Eric into thinking she is the one he heard singing and the one who saved him from drowning when he jumped off the burning ship. Just before the vows are finished the sea creatures and Scuddle swoop down and cause the necklace to fall off of Ursula’s neck turning her back into the sea witch. Ariel has run out of time and is turned back into a mermaid, captive of Ursula. When Triton learns of what has happened he agrees to give Ursula what she wants to set Ariel free. Prince Eric’s ship jams into Ursula and the trident falls to the bottom of the ocean and the shell necklace falls and breaks into pieces destroying Ursula, giving Ariel back her voice. Ariel is returned to the sea and her father. King Triton gets his trident back and then decides to make Ariel human again so she can marry Prince Eric, realizing her happiness must come before his. After they are married, King Triton surfaces to the boat, hugs Ariel and uses his trident to make a rainbow. Eric and Ariel kiss. You hear a narrator say, “I just don’t see how a world that makes such wonderful things could be bad.”
research on Poseidon
http://ezinearticles.com/?Acropolis---The-Contest-Between-Athena-and-Poseidon&id=945743
Acropolis - The Contest Between Athena and Poseidon
Despite the close connection between the goddess and the city, it was believed that Athena had once been forced to compete to win her pre-eminent position. In the time of the first king, Kekrops, the god Poseidon, discontented with his dominion over the seas, and jealous of the authority his brother Zeus exercised over the land, was determined to extend his own influence. One day he appeared on the Acropolis to demonstrate his power and usefulness to the citizens. In the presence of the king and people, he struck a great blow with his trident on the rock, and a saltwater spring gushed out. At that point, the goddess Athena appeared and caused an olive tree to emerge out of the ground. As it grew to maturity and fruitfulness in front of their eyes, she explained the many ways in which its fruit could be useful to them. Kekrops and his people were so impressed that they pledged their loyalty to Athena.
Angry and humiliated, Poseidon challenged Athena to single combat, but Zeus intervened to keep the peace, appointing the gods as arbiters. All the gods supported Poseidon, while the goddesses each voted for Athena. As their president, Zeus was obliged to remain neutral, leaving the goddesses with a majority of one; and so the city was awarded to Athena.
The resentful sea-god caused a disastrous flood on the plain, and in order to conciliate him, the men of Athens decided no longer to be known by their mothers' names, as had been the custom in the past, but to use their fathers' names instead. They also deprived the women of all their civic rights: even of the right to call themselves Athenians.
So much like the battle Triton had with Ursula, Poseidon had with Athena. Each wanted power of the sea or land.
http://wyvern.k-o.org/ballestrini.k/K-O_Classics/Classical_Mythology_files/poseidon%20reading.pdf
This site is much like the book of Genesis. It goes through the genealogy of Pontus and his wife Ge (Oceanides) who bore a son Nereus (old man of the sea and had a gift of prophecy) who mated with Doris (Nerieds) who bore 50 daughters 3 of these mermaids were important: Thetis (changed into a variety of shapes) bore, Achilles...Amphitrite wife of Poseidon (mermans) bore Triton (blew a conch shell known as trumpeter of the sea)he could change at will.
Theory he (Poseidon) was a male spirit of fertility, a god of earth who sent up springs. Poseidon mated with Demeter in the form of a Stallion he persuaded her while she was looking for her daughter and her ruse changing into a mare to escape him thus have the union of the male and female powers of the fertility of the earth. Poseidon's Roman name is Neptune. There is a picture at this site showing Poseidon on Triton holding his trident while Triton blows his conch shell its Ovid's description of the flood.
Poseidon made advances to Scylla, Amphitrite became jealous and threw magic herbs in Scylla's bathing place thus Scylla was transformed into a terrifying monster encircled with a ring of dogs' heads. Ovid's different version of Scylla's transformation (Metamorphoses) Glaucus a mortal who had been changed into a sea-god fell in love with Scylla, when he was rejected, he turned to the sorceress Circe for help. Circe fell in love with him and in her jealousy, poisoned the waters of Scylla's bathing place.
This makes me wonder....Elgin was rejected by Sophie, did her turn to Agnes on the rebound? Is Agnes going to take Sophie to the swimming place and poison her out of jealousy?
Is the Catholic church concerned if the Initial Stages of Creation of Pontus and Ge are on the scrolls it could cause controversy with the Bible's book of creation Genesis? If Plato's Pythagorean theory is on the scrolls this too could cause the church concern and if the Sibylline Books are in the scrolls that would cause concern. What if there were scrolls of records of the homosexual activities of the Vatican priests and cardinals?
In the story of Little Mermaid, Poseidon, Metamorphoses there is a flood. Is there going to be a hurricane in Night Villa? The common denominator in all of these is a rebirth and new generations. Also control of the sea. Control of the seas, particularly the Mediterranean, was key to power.
The three clues the Sibyl wrote on the leaves can be found in all these stories:
Poseidon will enact his wrath.......I see a flood coming!
The sea will take back what belongs to it.....I think he sea represents God will take back what belongs to him.
The maiden shall be returned to her mother...Mermaid was returned to her father, but is Iusta going to be returned to Vitalis the suit was ruled in her favor? Is Sophie going to be killed and return to her mother?
In Ovid's Metamorphoses its title is also "The Epistle" meaning the Bible
Ovid says.."So long is Christ our God as wee in Christian life proceed."
Sorry this was so lengthy.
Ciao for now..............................
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JudeS: Thanks for filling in about the Egyptian goddess Isis. I had no time yesterday to post all her background so just concentrated on what I saw as pertinent to our story. I was trying to point to the early Christians who may have adapted the ancient Isis worship to the veneration of Mary and Child which might explain Iusta's disappearance in to the house with symbols which we associate with Christianity.
Glad Deems came to the rescue with the boat symbol - I didn't get to that either...
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Alf, that is brave. I am afraid I would be the first under the table if someone came in waving a gun. Guns make me really uncomfortable. I live in Florida and I hate it when we are out in public and you can see someone has a carry permit and has the gun in a holster and I am not talking of policemen here.
I thought that the FBI was interested in the cult for the normal cult activities..not anything to do with the journey.. But then I am probably wrong.
Hang in there Joan, I read the book for fun..
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Deems ~ Thanks for the link to the boat symbol in Christianity. I understood about loaves and fishes, but had forgotten about fishermen. Were many of the followers of Jesus fishermen? That surprised me, since there is not much fishable water in the Holy Land except for the Sea of Galilee. We ate marvelous fresh fish (St. Peter's fish) at an outdoor restaurant at that seashore in 1966.
Here's a link: http://www.jerusalemperspective.com/Default.aspx?tabid=27&ArticleID=1852 (http://www.jerusalemperspective.com/Default.aspx?tabid=27&ArticleID=1852 )
The image of the cross being hidden as part of the structure of a boat seems obscure to me, but possible. Early Christians were certainly hated by both Romans and some of the orthodox Jews.
I've been posting less than many others, since I cannot spend all day on this book, or even half a day, as Bellamarie posted. But go, girl, your research is laudable!
I do not like the line of thought (forgot whose post that was) who postulated that Sophie made up the fact that her professor made sexual advances to her. Folks, that's the type of reasoning that made it difficult to prosecute rapists in the old pre-DNA days. Prosecutors should believe a woman who says that something happened to her. No wonder Sophie warned Agnes to beware.
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Thanks to those of you who think I am smart enough to read the book.
Steph, I am glad that you are reading the book for fun. I am not a classical scholar and have never cared much for the study of mythology. I don't have anyhing really good to say about this book right now. So I think I will just stay out of the discussion. I might finish the book though. I will finish it if I can find the time. That is said tongue-in-cheek because I have such an empty life. I am always hunting something to fill my time.
Joan Grimes
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JoanG, you are definitely smart enough to read this book. In French as well as English, and you probably know more about the art and antiquity in it than a great many of us.
Please forgive me if I’m repeating here. Just trying to zero in on Pythagoras and the Pythagoreans in answer to Andy’s question about the 1 – 2- 3. (I tried to search the discussion, but only one post came up.) Judging from Google, one could spend a lifetime studying Pythagoras alone. I'm just trying to break it down.
So in simple form, what have I learned on this morning’s hunt --
The world can be explained by numbers
They believed in opposites – limit/unlimited, male/female, good/bad
They didn’t eat meat or beans
Time now to stop, but what caught my eye –from Sacred Texts
"The Pythagoreans indeed go farther than this, and honour even numbers and geometrical diagrams with the names and titles of the gods. Thus they call the equilateral triangle head-born Minerva and Tritogenia, because it may be equally divided by three perpendiculars drawn from each of the angles. So the unit they term Apollo, as to the number two they have affixed the name of strife and audaciousness, and to that of three, justice. For, as doing an injury is an extreme on the one side, and suffering one is an extreme on the on the one side, and suffering in the middle between them. In like manner the number thirty-six, their Tetractys, or sacred Quaternion, being composed of the first four odd numbers added to the first four even ones, as is commonly reported, is looked upon by them as the most solemn oath they can take, and called Kosmos." (Isis and Osiris.)
OK, it was "justice" that caught my eye -- for Iusta?
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I keep wanting to mention -- there have been references here earlier to homosexuality, mainly, if I remember correctly, to Simon and John. This puzzles me as I don't see this in the reading. There was one allusion by Maria in response to a comment by Simon, but that's all.
Steph, Where is the RV going this trip? Have fun.
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Joan you are an art scholar and a damned good one. If I had time on my hands to spare I would be forever in the galleries.
Go ahead and finish the book, you will be happy that you did.
Bellemarie- you had better go take a nap. Holy smokes, girl, you must be exhausted in and out of these boats, into Genesis and out of the New Testament. This says it all.
Each wanted power of the sea or land.
See what you started Deems :o
Watch out Jude, here I come. I want to change my name to Isis.
She is also known as the Goddess of simplicity from whom all begginnings arose and was lady of bread, beer and green fields.
Yep, I shall now be called Isis. ::)
Mippy- that's a good question, let's see Matthew was a tax collector, Mark was a teacher,, Luke a physician. John, the Baptist, was a fisherman as the two brothers Barnabus and what's his name. You know what, I'm just showing my ignorance here. I will call my son, unless Deems can help me out.
My guess is that 3-4 of these apostles were fisherman. Whatever -- (as the kids say) the fact remains that boats were important.
Mippy you worte
I do not like the line of thought (forgot whose post that was) who postulated that Sophie made up the fact that her professor made sexual advances to her. Folks, that's the type of reasoning that made it difficult to prosecute rapists in the old pre-DNA days. Prosecutors should believe a woman who says that something happened to her. No wonder Sophie warned Agnes to beware.
I don't think that Sopie ever made up that fact, did she? Sophie had an afair with him. Period! That was her choice! He was a throwback after Ely abandoned her. She knows that he is a Don Juan type, flirting outrageously but he doesn't strike me as a rapist. Did I miss something there?
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Pedln- thank you for that but I am still ignorant about these messages and the importance of these #s. The minute I get my "head around it" I lose it again to another thought.
I guess that accounts for everything- the world can be explained in #s
My math skills are slim to NONE. ???
I agree, I didn't see any overt displays of homosexuality either.
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Okay I just want to clarify, I did not spend the entire day at my research and posting for those who seem to think I don't have anything better to do with my life. I enjoyed much time with my son, daughter in law and two beautiful grandsons. I visited with my sister and my other daughter in law, so as far as taking a break I had a lovely day off from my very busy in home day care, which is rare. I enjoyed watching the Little Mermaid which I had never done, learned so very much interesting information about Poseidon, and love the fact I now can understand Ovid's Metamorphoses. I thought the information would be of help.
For me I am a writer. I am used to spending much time in research, deep thought and putting together my thoughts and creating. I don't think that appears to be a reason for seeming to have no life or needing a break. Sometimes for writers and artists of any kind, that is our break, as our dear Gumtree the painter will attest to.
I enjoy these book discussions not only because I am able to share knowledge, but also because I am able to gain knowledge, not only from the books we read but from each of you whether you are a professor, traveler, homemaker, etc. I don't really feel anyone of us need to be a scholar to enjoy the interaction of the discussion with people from all over the world. Some people read for the pure joy of the story, others like to delve far beyond the surface. Which ever brings you the enjoyment of reading is a treasure to cherish.
Ciao for now...........................
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Bellamarie- None of us ever in a million years thought that that is all you have to do with your time. We appreciate your contributions and your links to all of this additional information. In fact, I love it. It helps me learn and encourages me to tie things in.
I think that each one of us feel a connection here, a comraderie so to speak.
This is what I call "MY TIME!" Man, if I wanted to spend all day (and I have, believe me) researching and posting I damned well will do it!
Ask my husband, he'll just roll his eyes. I've learned that I am allowed to spend the day if I please.
We all have family and the beauty of being at this stage in life (IMHO) is that I can either tend to them or NOT!
I don't really feel anyone of us need to be a scholar to enjoy the interaction of the discussion with people from all over the world. Some people read for the pure joy of the story, others like to delve far beyond the surface. Which ever brings you the enjoyment of reading is a treasure to cherish.
Hooray for us and hurray for you! ;D
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Ginny will shoot me when she gets back here this afternoon positing another question but: has anyone come up with the paper dilemma with the 3 cardboard tiles taped onto it?
1. A smiling cresent moon?
2. a man falling down the stairs?
3. A masked man?
They're all masked men at this point.
Which cult WAS it Ginny asked that Iusta belonged?
Could Maria be the FBI informant? aha, I hadn't thought of that before.
she's nervous, isn't she?
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Andrea, thank you so much for you post. My husband too rolls his eyes at times. ::) He still works full time with overtime hours and has his golf which takes hours, so my pleasure is reading and writing. What ever makes us happy in our aging years..... ;D
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Hooray for us - and long may it continue!
I think I might have been the one who said I'd been googling 'half the day' but I was speaking metaphorically - if I don't find something very quickly I give the search up. On the other sometimes a little research leads into unexpected treasure and time stands still.
I love everyone's posts and appreciate the time and effort that sometimes goes into the research just as I love the spontaneity of a quick rejoinder.
To judge from the snippets of personal lives everyone mentions from to time, it seems to me that Seniorlearners are a very diverse group with interesting backgrounds, lifestyles, and occupations (past and present). I love you all and wouldn't be without you.
JoanG. There's absolutely nothing the matter with your intellectual capacity - I well remember a discussion you led on Irving Stone's biographical novel about Pisarro - brilliant. I'm sorry you're not enjoying Night Villa - I guess it's just not your cup of tea - and if it's not, it's not - read something else....
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"This makes me wonder....Elgin was rejected by Sophie, did her turn to Agnes on the rebound? Is Agnes going to take Sophie to the swimming place and poison her out of jealousy?" --Bellamarie
Bellamarie--I have a problem with this speculation. Is there any indication, apart from Sophie's fears for Agnes, that Elgin is in pursuit of Agnes? I haven't found any. Thanks for all the information on Poseidon. I've always liked him because I'm a swimmer. Figure it's best to stay on his good side. I saw a shark once when swimming in Florida, so it seems to have worked. So far.
Andy (ALF)--Jesus calls four of the disciples while they are fishing: Simon Peter, Andrew, James and his brother John. And John the Baptist was not one of the disciples. There were several Johns, common name then as now. Here's the pertinent story:
As Jesus was walking along the sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon and his brother Andrew, fishing with nets in the sea.
Jesus said to them: "Come follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."
They followed Jesus.
As Jesus went a little farther he saw two more brothers fishing, James, son of Zebedee, and his brother, John. They were both in the fishing boat with their father, mending their nets. Jesus called to them.
Great crowds had gathered around Jesus to hear him teach and preach the word of God as he was standing by the Sea of Galilee.
Jesus saw a couple of empty boats near the shore. He got into one of the boats, which belonged to Simon, and asked him to shove the boat a little ways from the shore. Jesus sat in the boat and began teaching to the crowd.
When Jesus was done teaching, he told Simon to get into the boat with his nets and head for deeper waters to put out his nets.
Simon said: "Master we have worked hard all night and have been unable to catch any fish, but if you say so I will put the nets down as you wish."
As soon as Peter did as Jesus had requested, they were filled with many fish, so many that the nets started to tear. They called for their partners in a nearby boat to help. They came and filled up both boats with so many fish that the boats began to sink.
When Simon Peter saw this, he fell down at Jesus’ knees and said: "Go away from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord."
He was filled with amazement, as was everyone else who saw all the fish that filled the boats. James and John were partners with Simon in the fishing business.
Jesus said to Simon:" Don’t be afraid: From now on you will catch men."
And as soon as they got the boats to shore, they immediately left their nets and their boats and their father and followed Jesus.
Gum--Leaving a fish mixture in the sun several days to make FOOD--garum?? Not much of a fish lover myself, the very idea makes me want to never eat again!
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I thought the cross on the boat symbol for Christianity refers to the mast and its crossarms but there are many other connotations. Here's another link about the Boat as symbol -
Christian boat symbol (http://www.jesuswalk.com/christian-symbols/ship.htm)
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Deems: Yes, it's enough to put anyone off their tucker - but I'm sure it was Ginny who posted the old recipe...
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Deems,
Bellamarie--I have a problem with this speculation. Is there any indication, apart from Sophie's fears for Agnes, that Elgin is in pursuit of Agnes?
I'm not so sure if we are suppose to see it coming. I posed it as a question, so I suppose I am not altogether certain myself. I don't trust Agnes. Elgin to me seems to still have some feelings for Sophie, and if Agnes still has feelings for Elgin then she could be aiming for Sophie with or without Elgin's knowledge. Jealousy is a wicked weapon.
Gumtree, " I love you all and wouldn't be without you."
Amen, I say to this! ;)
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Gum--We are awake at the same time! Some of us are up very late. I must have missed Ginny's recipe. I tend not to read recipes. Unless I'm cooking.
Bellamarie--I don't trust Agnes either.
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ALF: I really haven't got a clue as to the meaning of the tiles of the crescent moon, man falling down the stairs, and the masked man - they really must mean something to somebody...
Maybe the masked man is Zorro ! ;D
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Deems and Bellamarie I didn't realise you were both still here together with me...it's 12.01 am on Saturday here and I'm just off to bed.
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Gum--We really are exactly 12 hours apart. Cool. Pleasant dreams.
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Gum, sleep tight our little tooth fairy from across the world. zzzzz :)
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Gum- while you are sleeping I have started the next section and my own question will then be answered, so i will wait.
Deems- you rock! OK I admit I was a trifle ::) off on the fishermen of faith.
Bella- aha "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." Is that what you're saying about sweet little Agnes? :D
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isis in egypt was originally IO in Greese, a lovely wood nymph transofrmed into a cow by zeus when confronted by a jealous Hera. She placed her under guard in a meadow by ??? with a thousand eyes who never sleeps. who remembers his name.
Apollo ? or was it ??? the trickster ?? in response to zeus' plea played his harp and told stories until A?? fell asleep and released her, but Hera had a gadfly biting her and chasing her all the way around the ionic sea, named for her, to egypt where she finally forgave her and let her assume her natural form only this time as iISIS the queen, she had little horns adorning the crown she wore.
now who can remember the names that slipped my meandering mind. it's really getting tough these days remembering words if not deeds. help help.
claire
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Argus was the guard of Io, who was beloved of Zeus, and of whom his wife, Hera/Juno, was envious. So Zeus turned Io into a cow in an attempt to fool his wife.
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Andrea,
Bella- aha "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." Is that what you're saying about sweet little Agnes?
Mippy, Argus was the guard of Io, who was beloved of Zeus, and of whom his wife, Hera/Juno, was envious. So Zeus turned Io into a cow in an attempt to fool his wife.
Seems it is time to add "jealousy" to the theme. Many a murders have taken place in the name of jealousy. Watch out Sophie! All through history jealousy is an emotion that brings about destruction.
Power and Money is what they are attempting to achieve/possess. Jealousy and wanting what someone has is the sin of covetting.
Here's a question to think about............
Can a person truly "LOVE" a person or thing if jealousy is its way of obtaining it and keeping it? Does one's jealousy cloud the true feeling of love and it turns into want or lust?
Thinking of this made me remember that in Ovid's Metamorphoses he lists the seven deadly sins. He also points out the virtues and the Ten Commandments, just not in the order as Moses brought down. He warns of not living a Christ like life. I have been in a Bible study with my church for going on 5 yrs. I taught religion classes to first grade for 7 yrs then Confirmation class for 5 yrs. (and no I am not a scholar in theology, a babe in the woods). It amazed me how Ovid managed to cover the teachings of our faith in his Metamorphoses.
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Oh dear winsumm- if Isis has been transformed into a cow, I am there. I am registering higher and higher each time I step on that darned scale.
Jealousy- I don't see that in Agnes Bellem- I see cunning, but I don't feel the jealousy.
That is a terrible emotion to have to deal with, I know. Can a person truly "LOVE" a person or thing if jealousy is its way of obtaining it and keeping it? Does one's jealousy cloud the true feeling of love and it turns into want or lust?
Well when the green-eyed monster rears its ugly head, the warmth of love, trust and even lust disappear, I think.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!---Joan R.
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(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week 2: Through Chapter 16:
The Game's Afoot!
1. What an exciting section! So many clues, so many mysteries!! What do you want to talk about first?
2. Who do you think was in the blue and white sailboat?
3. What cult do you think Iusta belongs to?
4. What is the meaning of the three squares, first at the table and then in the mail? Who do you think is sending them?
5. What do you think is Maria's real interest in the project?
6. How many themes of rebirth and resurrection are there in this section?
7. Can you shed some light on any of the following?
----Parthenope
----Agrai Mysteries
----Oxyrhynchus Project
----Petronii
----The Sibyl of Cumae
----Isis/ Apuleius
----Wilhelmina Jashemski
8. This would make a great movie. Who would you cast in the parts? Who do you see as Simon, John Lyros, Elgin and Sophie particularly?
9. How would you characterize the atmosphere on Capri?
10. What do you think John Lyros is actually after?
11. What did you like best in this section?
12. "We're all hungry for ritual, to experience something beyond the banality of everyday life, to stand outside of ourselves..." (Simon on page 150). When you think about it, who in this book is NOT in this condition? Why?
13. "Of course, " George says of the poppy on page 159, "just where Phineas finds it. Somehow was playing a little joke on you."
Who is the jokester here? Who is sending a poppy just where Phineas found it? Somebody who knows the story and the house. Who gains the most from replicating the Phineas story? WHAT is there TO replicate and why?
14. If you all had to bet on WHO at this point is the most sinister, who would get your vote? There is a tetraktys member among the group--who is it? (Pat)
--------Lyros: ginny
--------Agnes: bellamarie
--------Agnes: JudeS
--------Maria: PatH
15. How would the book have been different if they had waited to read the scrolls? Why did they not? (Sandy)
16. "Red symbolized the color of the underworld. Who left it on the statue?? What does it portend?" (countrymm)
17. How many operatives ARE there in this thing? Who are the good cops, who are the bad cops? Who is the sacrifice intended to be and why? Isn't Phineas a man? Why not pick a man? Who is leaving the cards? Why can't that person simply leave a message in English?
18. When he asked her what the sibyl said she said "She said nothing. She scribbled on a leaf three sentences:
Poseidon will enact his wrath.
The sea will take back what belongs to it.
The maiden shall be returned to her mother."
Is that Pythagorean, that 1-2-3?
Is that like the 3 questions that the Tetrkys ask themselves daily? (Andrea)
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The Rape of Persephone
Bernini 1621-24.
Rome (Villa Borghese)
Schedule
Chapters 10-16 for June 8 - 14
Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22
Chapters 25-End for June 23 - 30
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
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Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.
New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!
Bellamarie--I'm confused, not that it is an unfamiliar condition. ??? I can't follow some of what you found about Ovid. So far as I know he knew nothing of Christianity. What he's best known for is his love stories (some of them pretty graphic).
I looked up his dates and they come out from 43 BC to c. 17 AD. Since Jesus didn't die until about 30AD and the Christian faith didn't really spread until Paul came along, I don't see how Ovid could have known anything about Jesus.
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Sorry Deems, I tried to do the heading with my last post, but you will be leading the parade for the rest of this assignment. (At least until the next page comes due.) ::)
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No problem, Andy, I don't mind being on top. ;)
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Going back over my notes Ovid says, "of danger. The oration of Pithagoras implyes. A sum of all forer woorke. What person can dvyse." "He bringeth in Pythagoras disswading men from feare."
Is the danger he speaks of possibly, God being upset with Pythogoras for trying to discredit or take credit for God's creation? You really don't want to make God angry, we know what he is capable of. >:(
I keep seeing a great flood about to take place. Possibly a hurricane. These two seem to be connecting for me.
"Many are the narthex bearers, but few the Bacchio." vision of Odette and Charles
"Save few that by the help of boats atteyned unto him." Ovid's Metamorphoses
One last thought before I forget...Night Villa is a book within a book, within a book, etc.
the Bible is a book within a book, within a book, etc.
Metamorphoses is a book within a book, within a book etc.
Coincidence? Ely said something about, you usually find it when you are looking for it. In other words, no coincidences.
Ciao for now....................
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so as far as taking a break I had a lovely day off from my very busy in home day care, which is rare.
Bellemarie, I am in AWE of you. You do child care at home most of the day? Aren't you exhausted after all the children leave? I can see why you love adult conversation and deep thoughts about books.
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Gumtree, I know what you mean when you say "off your tucker". When I visited Australia, I saw a sign posted outside an elementary school requesting noontime help in the tucker.
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Deems, this is the site I read the English version of Ovid's Metamorphoses
http://www.elizabethanauthors.com/ovid00.htm
Now, I in NO WAY am familar with Ovid, and never heard of him until this book, so I am taking from this
site???? No love story per se here, all about the way you are to live for God. He uses the words Christ, mentions him as the Son and uses the words Christian law. ????? Have I stumbled in a wayward site???? There are various sites I really only checked this one out. hmmmmm Help me out Deems, if you can, I trust you, YOU are the professor here.
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countrymm, Yes, I am exhausted at the end of my day. I have owned my own day care for 10 yrs, after leaving my computer teaching job in an elementary Catholic school for 15. yrs. I began my business so my grandchildren could have me as their Nonnie, and teacher. Some days are very hectic, some days light like today, some days in the summer I lose kids so I actually can find a day off during the week. I have done nothing but teach and care for kids. Everyone says I am crazy. Nope, just love what I do. Especially love naptime and quiet time. phew.. Just waiting for my kids to stop having babies so I can retire one day.
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Well, I've mostly been lurking since I've worried that, having already finished the book, I'd give something away or that my perceptions have been influenced by knowing how it all turns out.
But, I'm giving nothing away by commenting on Roman fish sauce (garum) and asking you guys who've been holding your noses, whether you've ever enjoyed Thai food? Vietnamese food? Cambodian food?
Yes? Well, then I guarantee you've consumed garum's modern equivalent, since fermented fish sauce forms the basis on many popular dishes in those cuisines. There's barely a soup, curry or saute that doesn't have a touch of fish sauce to make it shine!
Keep going when you check out this link: it ends with a discussion of garum. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_sauce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_sauce)
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mmm- CATBROWN-I love fish sauce. Of course I love anchovies as well.
Admittedly, to the contemporary ear the manufacture of garum has a somewhat unattractive sound. But, garum is far from just "rotten fish." Its image as a spoiled, decaying substance is inaccurate and misleading. Enzymic proteolysis is not a bacterial action leading to decay and putrefaction, but one that preserves and eventually dissolves the fish. Similar to other more modern products of fermentation (such as beer, vinegar, cheese, or yogurt), garum can claim counterparts in the still celebrated ancient sauces of nam pla inThailand, tuk trey in Cambodia, and nuos nam in Vietnam. In Italy, as well, contemporary cousins of garum continue to be eaten today.
We now know why the Romans were so fond of this "full-bodied" flavoring: garum contains a high level of glutamate, an amino acid found in all fermented products. The particular taste-enhancing effect of glutamate was originally discovered by Japanese scientist Kikunae Ikada in 1908, and is the key to what gives condiments like garum or Thai fish sauce their widespread appeal.
When attempting to recapture authentic flavor in ancient dishes made with garum, it is important to recognize the large difference between ancient Roman fish sauce and 21st century anchovy paste: using the latter has unhappily sabotaged many otherwise successful recipes. However, there is no need to break out the fish guts and brine. Instead, rather than scare off the neighbors by experimenting with your own garum fermentation processes, pick up a bottle of Vietnamese nuos nam or Thai nam pla fish sauce. For these products, just check out a local Chinese supermarket, or ask for advice from the nearest Thai or Vietnamese restaurant. Then, if you're feeling brave, try giving one of our recipes a whirl!
~~~The Italian Cookbook
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"But, I'm giving nothing away by commenting on Roman fish sauce (garum) and asking you guys who've been holding your noses, whether you've ever enjoyed Thai food? Vietnamese food? Cambodian food?
Yes? Well, then I guarantee you've consumed garum's modern equivalent, since fermented fish sauce forms the basis on many popular dishes in those cuisines. There's barely a soup, curry or saute that doesn't have a touch of fish sauce to make it shine!"--catbrown
Oh no, catbrown, Say not so. Oh, yuck!! Surely those fish sauces don't all hang around in the sun for hours???
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Bellamarie--You have not stumbled onto a bad site. It's an excellent site and most interesting. The problem is you have found the first translation into English of Ovid's Metamorphoses, attributed to Arthur Golding (1567). Metamorphoses was written in Latin.
I'll highlight several of the passages and try to show why you thought there was Christian doctrine here. But it will take me a little time to do it.
Let's start by noticing the date--1567. Elizabeth I was on the throne of England, Shakespeare was a three-year-old boy, his great plays still ahead of him. This is the beginning of the Renaissance in England. It took a century and a half or so to get there from Italy where it had its birth.
Part of the Renaissance was the rediscovery (and translation) of ancient texts in Latin and Greek.
Because the discovery of classical authors was somewhat suspect, what with their being pagans and all, Golding begins his translation with an "epistle," a letter to Robert, Earl of Leicester. That first part, the Epistle, isn't Ovid at all. It's the work of the translator.
More later, dogs calling.
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Present day fish sauce is made in a fermentation process very much like the ancient Roman one. Read the link in my post, or ALF's excellent post on the same subject.
I think you guys are reacting to garum the way many Chinese must have first reacted to cheese (which used to be unknown in China) ... omigod! stinky, rotten milk, left to get moldy! left in caves for years! yuck! yuck! yuck!
It's all in the eyes (or in this case, tongue) of the beholder (umm, taster).
I hope you all have eaten Thai food? Totally delicious, yes? And full of fish sauce!
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So many posts this morning, I had to leave before I could read them all.
I'm sure I've forgotten one of two items I planned to comment on, but I'm
also sure we can all bear the loss. 8)
Gum, I enjoyed the item about the symbolism of the boat. I had vaguely
associated it with the fishermen, but that's all. And of course many of
the early Christian symbols were deliberately obscure, so only Christians
would recognize them. Safer that way.
Sophie does seem to spot Elgin frequently watching Agnes. With the new
speculation that is arising about Agnes, it occurs to me that Elgin might
have other than romantic reasons for keeping an eye on her.
I agree with ALF. Somehow, Agnes doesn't seem jealous to me. On those
occasions when she seems to act/speak out of character, it is more as if
she is taunting...innocently, of course.
BELLAMARIE
the Bible is a book within a book, within a book
Hmm, I can't speak for the Metamorphoses, having never read it, but the Bible
is more a collection of books..a library of books. One might say, 'books within
a book'; that would be entirely accurate.
One point in this section that perturbs me....If Lyros is so concerned with archaeology, why is he permitting the drilling that endangers the excavation? True archaeologists proceed very slowly and cautiously in order not to endanger whatever may be there. Lyros disregard in this respect has me wondering just precisely what his motives are here.
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Thanks, Deems, for clearing up the confusion over "Metamorphoses". The Ovid with whom I'm a bit familiar wrote the long poem "Metamorphoses" which covers the myths and legends familiar to the Romans. I can translate some simplified versions of it but hope to learn enough to do the "real thing" some day. I love those old stories. I was trying to figure out how in the world the Bible got into it. Glad you clarified the whole thing for us. Now I can see how it all happened .
This is such a wonderful discussion. I just sit back in amazement at all the great information and keep busy following down the links. The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!
I have a feeling that we should beware of red herrings and false trails so I'm not leaping to any conclusions yet!
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Deems, Like I said, I know NOTHING at all about Ovid, I just stumbled onto that website. I am aware it was written in Latin, and I am also aware of what lines in it I picked up on the Christian ideas. What I read is what I based my ideas on. With all due respect, I will defer to the Professor here.
JoanR, Don't just sit back, feel free to jump in and give us your knowledge on Ovid, we need all the help we can get here. We are all confused as you can see.
Babi, I think we are meaning the same. Guess it came out wrong. I am in agreement the Bible is a collection of books. From all the books Carol used to write Night Villa, I dare say this could be considered a collection of books. lolol It sure has my head spinning with Poseidon, and poppies, Little Mermaid and dead fish, John the Baptist and John Lyros, Boats and crescent moons, FBI and tetraktys, rapes and homosexuals, cults and churces, hades and parasdise, Sibyls and slaves....damned if I can keep anything straight.
Thank you ladies, A scholar I am NOT. Guess I better stick with the more simpler things. :D :D :D
Ciao for now.................
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Yes, JoanR, we tend to forget that this is a mystery,and probably full of red herrings.
Babi, I agree about the drilling, it bothered me too. Not only is it a danger, but don't forget that some of the most important information from Pompeii and Herculaneum came from the empty cavities. You fill in this hole in the solidified ash with plaster and find a bodiy lying in the position it fell. Excavation is destruction, and you have to be sure, to the best of your technology, that you have captured everything. And the lower levels are unsafe. Why weren't they shored up properly as they were opened?
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That's a good point. A LOT of good points. :) Some of the sites are not being extensively excavated because of earthquakes. Speaking of red herrings....hahahaa
Cathy and Andrea both have good links and quotes on garum, the links at the end of Cathy's article are particularly good. If you have not had time to read the "fixings" in these ancient recipes from those who lived at that time from the Penelope Project, feast your eyes. :)
Garum is rotten fish guts, much prized as a sauce.Apparently there was a thriving trade from Pompeii in the stuff. It was stored in garum jars and exported. Here's one of the jars, they are huge, from a ship from one of the traveling exhibitions last year, taller than a man:(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/garumjar2.jpg)
I am amazed at reading here of the modern production of this sauce, let's all get some fish guts or offal as Pliny describes and try it? hahahaa
Pliny... describes garum as "consisting of the guts of fish and the other parts that would otherwise be considered refuse; these are soaked in salt, so that garum is really liquor from the putrefaction of these matters" (Natural History, XXXI.93).
From the U of Chicago Penelope Project comes this excellent explanation:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/wine/garum.html
The most detailed description of garum is from the Geoponica (XX.46). The preparation involves adding a quantity of salt (two sextarii to one modius, 1:8, this is the only recipe to provide a ratio) to the entrails of small fish, such as mullets, sprats, or anchovies. The mixture then was allowed to ferment or macerate in the sun for several months, the liquamen drawn off and strained and used as a condiment or seasoning, the feculent remainder made into allec.
Sounds yummy to me!
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I love all the conversation here, it's fabulous! I tried to get in here all last night, what storms we had, unreal. Many without power here today but we were without satellite.. But on the subject of why John Lyros seems suspect, here's my reasoning:
On Why I Don't Trust John Lyros
1. There's that 5 year gap in his resume, and we know what 5 years means in this book, so somehow he is or was involved with the Tetratkys.
2. He's called his boat the Parthenope, one of the Sirens. We remember what the sirens do in this piece.
3. His remark on page 121, to Agnes's remark "Sometimes I forget that this isn't the original villa." He remarks "Why don't you do that?" ostensibly about her emailing a copy to his laptop, but in response to her remark. I think he's determined to recreate the entire thing, or whatever the entire thing would be. And the "thing" was quite unpleasant, wasn't it? Even if we don't know what "it" was, the actual secret mystery rites, for which we're reading the fictional Phineas Aulus to find out, we DO know there's whipping till the blood comes to the skin? So what fun to recreate that one?
4. The room she is in corresponds to the same room Phineas was in. Lyros is the one making the room assignments, but he innocently announces to the group, Sophie just noticed she's in the same room!
5. On 134 Sophie says, she is "wondering just how long Lyros had been listening to our conversation."
6. He's looking for (136), "an Orphic poem, an unknown dialog of Plato, the lost writings of Pythagoras."
7. 166: "The idea that Lyros might be re-creating some kind of ritual here in his re-creation of the Villa della Notte is alarming."
Yeah boy
8. 160 "I bet it was Mr. Lyros." Agnes suspects Lyros of putting the poppy on her plate. Maria thinks so too And Agnes says "he's so into recreating the atmosphere of the original Villa Della Notte." Why? When we know it was unpleasant?
9. 143, Sophie is startled by the eyes of Lyros again. "They seem to darken for a moment when they fall on my arm linked to Elgin's…"
10. 144 Lyros is very angry about the wrong number of table settings. Why?
11. 189 Lyros is watching them: "John, who I notice, is watching us…"
12. Lyros says something strange to Sophie, he says on page 190, "I'll make sure we don't open it before you get back." Is he playing again some kind of parallel game? Even she thinks it's a strange remark.
13. Pythagoras emerges again, as Elgin tells Sophie, "I think they believe that Pythagoras's golden Verses were real and that Phineas had a copy with him when Vesuvius erupted." And I think "they" are Lyros who has already mentioned Pythagoras.
14. And here he comes, covered with ash but otherwise unhurt, as he's been "trying to get them out of there," Simon and Agnes. Something is wrong here. Earthquake was a nice coincidence, I don't think that's what happened. Nobody else had the room cave in on them.
Or so I think.
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I leave you guys for less than a day and it takes me an hour to catch up on your posts.
I have a question-
Did the person that put the quote from Cicero on top of this page choose the rose at random or because it was used in the Greco-Roman worship of Isis? Remember the Rose industry developed because roses were used in worship of Isis.
Now remarks-Remember this is a mystery and the red herrings and stinky sauces abound.
Next -If you're on an Island like Capri (yes, I spent a sun drenched day there and decide that it was possibly the most beautiful place on earth) you will see boats everywhere you look on the horizon or close to the shore. If you are in a part of Italy close to Capri you will also be inundated by boats. Blue and white are the favorite colors people paint there boats.
If it was Ely on that boat then the part premonition plays in the story is bigger than I thought at first. Is the author one who uses premonition as a tool in her mysteries? I don't know.
What do those little cards mean? Up to now the best guess I read was Zorro. There simply isn't enough to go on as yet.
I'm sure the author must be building up to something but I don't know what as yet. The only connection I can make is with
Tarot cards that are supposed to tell your fortune or future.
Wait, another idea emerges, perhaps the man with the whip is part of a sado-masochistic cult within a cult? There were friezes of this type which I saw when visiting Pompeii.
ALF- if you want to be Isis you are welcome to the position. She's way too busy a person for me. She has many jobs-so little time.
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Now remarks-Remember this is a mystery and the red herrings and stinky sauces abound.
Shriek! hahaaaa Good one!
I have a question-
Did the person that put the quote from Cicero on top of this page choose the rose at random or because it was used in the Greco-Roman worship of Isis? Remember the Rose industry developed because roses were used in worship of Isis.
Marcie did it? And now it's revealed, Marcie is the Tetratkys infiltrator! hahaha Nah she just liked it, it IS pretty. Love the connection. :) We will be seeing Tetratkys in our back yards before this is over. hahahaa
The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!
Good one, Joan R, that one's in the heading, so true.
What would happen if we took the cards from the table and the cards from the mail received and put them in order (or the order Sophie read them in, were they arranged in a certain way then? What would happen if we tried to match them to what we know of the story Aulus is telling?
Anything? (Notice who has not done this? hahahaa)
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naturally many of us have been interested in attempting to make GARUM. . . me too. here are recipes for the old style and the new style. enjoy.
http://www.grouprecipes.com/46415/ancient-roman-garum-fish-sauce.html
ah that google . . seven days in the sun is part of the old one. fermentation as in sun tea? or is the salt the preservation source. This would be very very salty and bad for you ad me I think.
claire
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jealousy we could discuss that for a long time. succinctly many animals are territorial about their mates. However, in this story, it doesn't seem to move it along in any way as a part of the theme. MYSTERY seems to me eto be the main theme.
Thank you, whoever for ARGOS. I've already forgotten YOUR NAME so as to thank you properly. I hate this memory thing that's taking over my life.
MEMORY is a good theme and appears in may goodman tales. . . but not so much in this one. I've read four of them now. Just finished THE DROWNING TREE. very interesting description of the production of stained glass windows.
claire
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winsummm,
jealousy we could discuss that for a long time. succinctly many animals are territorial about their mates. However, in this story, it doesn't seem to move it along in any way as a part of the theme.
I have seen hints of it, and some people who are jealous keep it hidden until they decide to harm their target. Agnes, is someone I suspect would not be good at sharing, or not good at accepting someone she cares about, does not return those feelings, but has feelings for another. All throughout mythology, middle ages, biblical times and modern times, we see people kill because of jealousy. Its just a feeling I have had for some time. I sense her target will be Sophie.
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winsumm- check out our interview with Carol Goodman at the top here. She went into great detail about the stained glass windows in The Drowning Tree. Her research was impeccable.
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Alf. blowing glass leaves you with a container not a flat plate like surface. I looked into doing it but am not strong enough to fling that long metal tube that you blow into around to make and shape the gob of molten glass on the end. this is my art field so I notice little things like that. I suppose you could flatten them out but that's not conducive to cutting like say a picture puzzle. Stained glass for windows needs to be flat and thin.
I couldn't find carols discussion on it but noticed the discrepancy while reading the book.
I did wonder aboutthe multi layering to create color effects. we do that in painting with glazes, but the light coming from behind wouldn't work for painting so I wonder about the stream effect, possibly only done in the dark layer which is on top . . .it's an interesting field. while arranging on he light table though you are working upside down too, so it would be the first layer. there are probably a lot of different approaches, but none of them are BLOWN GLASS.
I've done something like that in painting on Milar for architectural illustrations.
claire
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Quote from JudeS
What do those little cards mean? Up to now the best guess I read was Zorro.
There simply isn't enough to go on as yet
Jude You're right: there isn't enough information given about the little cards so I'm content to wait until we learn more.
My facetious guess at the masked man being Zorro wasn't just plucked out of thin air as Zorro always left his own calling card - the letter Z slashed into whatever surface he found handy. - the original tale was a novella called The Curse of Capistrano by Johnston
McCulley - it is startlingly reminiscent of The Scarlet Pimpernel :D
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winsummm, Each November I go to the University lab and make icicles. We begin with a glass rod and heat it with a torch, then we use a steel tool with a flat round end to flatten the end of the heated glass and if we want the icicle to have reflecting color in it at that point we add color crystals. I have a difficult time when stretching the heated glass to twist it into the shape of the icicle because I am short and have short arms, and the glass begins to cool down quite quickly. I must say...they are a beautiful finished product and look gorgeous on our Christmas tree. I have so many now, I have begun giving them away for Christmas gifts. My precious grandchildren are in awe when they see them on the tree and saw, Nonnie and Papa made these! Each time them come during the holidays, they have to take as they say, "JUST ONE" home. lolol I expect they will have quite a collection and a lifetime of memories to go along with them.
My friend does beautiful glass blowing vases etc. I marvel at the art of it.
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This is sort of on the topic I guess, but I hate to keep mentioning DVD's but the Corning Glass Company has some wonderful DVD's which show among other things the various techniques that the Romans and the Egyptians used in making glass. There were a bunch of different techniques and it's absolutely fascinating.
Of course YouTube has a bunch of glass blowers, too. The Corning Museum site: http://www.cmog.org/ does not seem to have any of those videos but I was surprised to see you can sign up for Make Your Own Glass
Make Your Own Glass experiences offer fun for all ages.
Sandblast a drinking glass, fuse a windchime, flamework a bead and more. Our experienced glassmakers will help you!
Oh wouldn't that be super fun for those of us who know nothing of it. I can attest that one sits gap mouthed at the display on their DVD's, you can easily see why the Romans switched to glass blowing, a glass in no time versus a long process previously.
On the cards, (Zorro Sighting! hahaha love it) Andrea listed some, let me go get all 6 in the order and see what happens if we decide to look at them as (HOLD ON TO YOUR SEATS!) another parallel plot?
I personally think Calatoria made up the "Sibyl's prophesies" because they were always indecipherable and those Calatoria gave were not. She was enticing the fictional Phineas into her web. Just like John Lyros is! I could be wrong, however and most always am. hahahaa
I loved this section here: Beginning of Chapter 12:
It is that time of evening when th sky shifts from indigo to violet. In sympathy, the sea has darkened to purple--a color that could earn the Homeric epithet: "wine dark." Lights are just beginning to come on around the shoreline, like beads being strung, one by one, on a curved diatem crowning the amethyst brow of the bay.
That's nice writing. Full of metaphor, simile and personification. The more I look at it the better I like it and the more I see in it, I like a book like that.
Do you have any questions for Carol in this section? We've only the one day more in it?
Did any piece of writing in this section stand out?
One other reason this grabbed me was the "wine dark sea." I have never seen it. Two or was it three years ago on an archaeological trip to Greece for two weeks including a boat trip to Cyprus, we saw plenty of sea, I never saw wine dark nor anything that even resembled it. Have been looking at the Siren's coast for 24 years, maybe I go at the wrong time of the year! I bet that's IT!
OR maybe the wine of Greece in 700 BC looked different? I dunno, one of those little things that nag one.
Andrea put in the first three cards. Let me go get them and the last three and see what we can make of it, I loved that "they're all masked" in this thing.
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This was good, Pedln:
OK, it was "justice" that caught my eye -- for Iusta?
Iusta (Justa) in Latin when pertaining to persons means: just, equitable, fair.
She was real however, so I am not sure if her own name will come to have meaning here in this pretty much fictional take off on her life.
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OK we've all been talking about the cards and what they might mean, here's my take on it. What do you think? :)
SHRIEK!! SHRIEK !! SHRIEK!!
LOOK at this!
Andrea listed the first three cards on the table:
1. A smiling crescent moon
2. a man falling down the stairs
3. A masked man
YOWEE! If you look up Smiling Crescent Moon in Tarot LOOK what you get!!!! I'll highlight some of these in red:
18. THE MOON
I am
Moon Goddess
waxing and waning
light in the darkness
My changes pull at the soul
A smiling crescent moon shines above an empty bed on the Moon card. The towers on either side protect the bed, the home of sleep, as the Priestess' towers guard her. They also recall the proud building of the Tower card, raised against the sky by human pride. The towers look out towards approaching dangers, toward the future. On either side of the bed stand a wild wolf and a domestic dog. Humanity encompasses them both; we are both tame and wild. We too are domesticated but still, at heart, as wild as wolves. A path winds down through the center of the scene, even over the bed itself. This is the path of unconsciousness and dream. The Moon, an embodiment of the eternal feminine, reigns over the period of sleep and dream. The bed stands both in water and on land; its legs rest on little islands from which water ripples in rings. Water, as we have seen is the vital power of possibilities and represents the depth of the subconscious. From the mystery of the waters rises a lobster, aquatic creature of nightmares. Dreaming opens the deepest, most hidden parts of ourselves. We live through much, and relive the joys and troubles of waking life. There is the nourishing, regenerating aspect of dream, and always the potential for night terrors.
Meaning
The Moon presides over the kingdom of peaceful sleep and restless nightmares. From the fount of the watery star flow dreams, illusions, chimeras, visions. She is mistress of fertility, creativity, and the subconscious as well as the instigator of lunacy and nocturnal fears. As the night fills half of time, and the dark sustains half the weight of the universe, so the Moon takes its place as the guardian of half of the world soul. Nightmares, as disturbing as they can be, still serve us well. The soul grapples with its fears in the anxious images of troubled sleep, and it draws strength from the struggle.
The Light and Shadow Tarot, pg. 56 - 58.
Holy smoke!
Moon? Building of pride? Water? Steps going down?
WHOOPEE!! I feel like Stanley discovering Livingstone but is THIS a red herring too?
And here are the ones sent to her in the mail, no postmark, hand delivered. (Are we all assuming Ely here? If not, who?)
Three small cards (what happened to 3, 4, 5?) each about an inch square,….
4. a man sweeping with a broom
5. a frying pan
6. a sun
OK I looked up Tarot Cards (being somewhat surprised to see the links to Tarot, Astrology and Numerology, but anyway from this site: http://www.learntarot.com/maj19.htm
HERE is what the Sun card means in Tarot:
becoming enlightened
understanding
finding the sense behind the chaos
attaining a new level of insight
having an intellectual breakthrough
getting to the heart of the matter
realizing the truth
experiencing greatness
achieving prominence
being singled out for notice
having a personal moment of glory
setting an outstanding example
shining forth brilliantly
demonstrating distinction
becoming the center of attention
feeling vitality
becoming radiantly energized
bursting with enthusiasm
experiencing joy
feeling invigorated
getting charged up
enjoying great health
having assurance
feeling free and expansive
honoring your true self
knowing you can succeed
being confident
believing in your worth
trusting your abilities
forgiving yourself
So, I think we have the entire story here sent to Sophie. BUT are they from friend or foe? LOOK at all the meanings of the SUN!
On the one hand you could say the sun enlightenment to me means whoever sent these cards WANTS her to go thru this whatever it is. That to me means he or she is not a friend.\
On the other spectrum it seems to promise forgiveness of self, look at the end bunch, in that case are they a warning sent by a friend?
Maybe I'm reading it wrong?
Perhaps we have a mix here, a mix of symbols pertaining to the current situation like the steps, falling down the steps.
We've already seen some of the steps have no railings and are just stuck out of the wall, I can attest to that, having done the INFAMOUS 1,000 steps on the Amalfi coast, can't find the frying pan, all I can find is out of the frying pan into the fire. Out of the frying pan of this horrid event into the sun of enlightenment? Or maybe the Gemini twins are involved somehow? The one who never smiles, yin and yang?
HOO!!! Are these CARDS the modern Sibyl for Sophie? And us? Can she figure it out before it's too late?
??
I guess my question IS are these cards warnings or prophesy or both?
Can WE figure them out before she does?
HOO!
Don't we now have the first three? A situation involving water, towers built by pride, steps and danger, followed by falling and masked persons, people not what they seem to be.
The second set we may not have come to but the sun is enlightenment, so what is the broom and what is the frying pan?
I know, I know that's pretty…er….but what's YOUR explanation?
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BELLAMARIE, not to mention ghosts, Curses, numerology, tarot-like cards and who knows what else. Our professor dismisses numerology…I think…, or does she just resent it because it took Ely away from her. She apparently believes in ghosts. I'm not sure what she really feels about 'curses'. Isn’t this out of character for a scholar?
PatH, I wasn't aware of the importance of the cavities. All in all, the work going
on here seems 'hair-raising', from both an archaeological and a fiction standpoint.
I don't know, GINNY. Like JoanR said, there are bound to be a number of red herrings scattered about here. I found that 5 year gap suspicious, too, but maybe we are supposed to. At one time or another, it seems Goodman points a subtle finger of suspicion at everyone.
WOW! With that many possible meanings to a single tarot card, you could pretty much find anything in a 'reading' that you pleased! As a couple of our posters have commented, we need more information on these cards before we know what our author has in mind.
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Babi,
WOW! With that many possible meanings to a single tarot card, you could pretty much find anything in a 'reading' that you pleased!
Bingo! That's what the Sibylline prophesies were all about: nobody knew what they meant. At Praeneste there was an ancient and famous temple of Fortune, where oracles known as sortes ("lots") were given: tablets, each inscribed with its own oracle, were shuffled by a child who drew one and gave it to the questioner.
Kind of reminds you of those black balls you'd turn about and ask a question? Remember those? I used to love them as a youngster. And the answer would float up? hahaha Loved those things. I think they are still around.
Here's a little more on the oracles from the OCCL:
"Very many oracular responses to questions are known, and mostly they direct the questioner to perform some religious act, such as a sacrifice to a particular god."
So if these are meant as oracles, they are directions of what's to come, but they may be warnings. I see them as warnings....well HEY, they're in the book! :)
I think a simple "get out of there, they're all nuts," would do just as well? hahaha
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OH unless the person SENDING the cards is a Tetratkys and can't communicate (was that oral or written communication?) Maybe he or she is cheating a little on the 5 year vows, we already know there's a fungus among us?
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Holy smokes Ginny, Jude & Babi, now-- I am completely uncertain at this point what these symbols depict.
We could pick any one of these explanations but until our next reading assignment I fear that clarification is in a distant light.
hmmm Ginny good point there. The five year vow was a vow of SILENCE! i doubt if that meant communication. good thought!
PatH- Oh my, oh my, WHY did I not even think about the hurry that Lyros seems to insist on at the dig site. Oh where is your post? Is it Lyros? He's not the archeologist, he's just funding the thing, isn't he? I'm getting my wires crossed and it is still only noon.
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Ginny-What do you mean the black balls when you were a kid? Heck I still consult mine as an adult. I asked about the stock market recently..... ::)
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hahaha You and the rest of Wall Street. hahaha
I started to buy one the other day just for the heck of it. I kept getting the same answer tho so did not. hahahaa
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Andy, you are a hoot (as Ginny would say). Still using the old Magic 8 Ball, eh?
My problem with Tarot card meanings is that there are too many possibilities--reminds me of horoscope readings from the paper. My guess is we'll find out later what these cards mean and we might as well wait. No real point in speculating, is there? It does seem that the cards spook Sophie a little.
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Countrymm: From your comment on tucker I see you are a true aficionado. When did you come to Australia and which part of the country did you visit? What did you like most about it? This is not an inquisition - I'm just interested.
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Ah! Deems: How nice, you're here again in the middle of my night. Like you, I'm going to leave the puzzle of the cards until someone - perhaps Carol Goodman - explains it all to me. I'm not much into mysteries but I do love this book for its background in the classical world.
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Gum,
I'm not much into mysteries but I do love this book for its background in the classical world.
Ditto
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!---Joan R.
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(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week 3: Through Chapter 24:
It's All in the Cards
What a chapter! Revelations, surprises, but even more secrets, what did you make of it?
1 Talk about unreliable narrators, what do you think of Phineas? Is he reliable? Is Ely? Do you believe Ely?
2. Who is the yet unnamed operative still at the site?
3. The cards and their meanings are revealed!! What are two possible flaws in Ely's plan to use them?
4. " I see Agnes, looking not only very much alive but the picture of health. Her cheeks are pink and her eyes glowing as if she'd just finished a morning jog." (page 232). What's going on with Agnes and why?
5. Are you clear on how the two parallel plots intertwine here? We've only got a small section left. What has Phineas's part in the rites got to do with the hunt for the Golden Verses?
6. What do you think Simon was arguling about with Lyros? What do you think he was struggling to say to Sophie?
7. What do you think Maria was doing on the computer? (page 206) Do you buy her emergency family trip?
8. Betrayal as a theme has just raised its head. How is it paralleled exactly in the two plots?
9. How much do you think Maria saw when she came to look for Sophie? Why couldn't Ely have taken her to land somewhere instead of the swim?
10. "....be careful not to hurt Agnes or Agnes's woman professor." (page 279). What need has Lyros of Agnes's woman professor?
11. What do you think is the most important part of this section and why?
12. What does Sophie's dream about Odette mean? What is meant by the wrong pan and the wrong day? (Babi)
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The Temple of Poseidon
Sounion, Greece
Where "Phineas" got the scrolls
Schedule
Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22
Chapters 25-End for June 23 - 30
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
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Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.
New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!
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Oh I love to speculate in a mystery, that's what you do anyway, when you read, right? Sort of part of the fun of discussing a mystery as one giant brain. I don't remember how it ends, can you believe that? I read it so fast last year before our fabulous meeting with Carol. But I have read it up to our current part 3 times, all sorts of exciting possibilities, am I the only one speculating?
When I read a mystery I'm thinking all the time. Could XX be the one? Could YYY? I am almost NEVER right. All i remember about the end of this book is I didn't see it coming.
I'll stifle. hahahaa But I'm thinking all the time. I have to say I'm convinced I'm right. (That means I'm dead wrong). And feel particularly brilliant about it also. hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Maybe at the end if we don't know what the cards mean we should ask Carol, a good idea, Deems.
What would you all like to say here on the last two days, lots of great points raised here by our readers.
Welcome back, Eloise!
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I thought, since we've been talking about earthquakes and several of you have mentioned drilling in the fictional Villa Della Notte, and how close the modern city is to the real Herculaneum and the Villa dei Papiri, you might like to see some recent (2008, 2006) shots of Herculaneum.
Herculaneum (and the Villa of the Papyri) will have to be cut out of rock but you're right the city IS close.
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This is on the way in. If you can just see the little people in white on the very back of the photo, they are crossing a bridge to enter Herculaneum?
And it's WAY down there, in some cases is it 69 meters of solid rock? The amazing thing to me is how close the modern city of Ercolano comes, you can literally look up from the ruins and see wash on the line, it really makes it come alive. Here if you can see it are people descending into Herculaneum (restaurant on the upper left) and wash (white blob) on the right top.
But it's a lot lower than people think:
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Above looking down at the boat houses on what used to be the shore (!!) where they recently found so many bodies.
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Above going in on a bridge over the ancient city.
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The houses of the modern city Ercolano come right up to it, but there's no use for the homeowners to dig in the basement for artifacts and you can see why. :)
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We've been reading about the earthquakes, they just had a big one in the 80's and it really shows.
Here in the Villa Arianna in Stabiae you can see the damage clearly:
On the walls:
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and on the floor
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Ginny, did you take these? These pixs are spectacular? On that 1st picture when you said the city is close where the people are entering Herculeneum, where are they entering FROM?
Above looking down at the boat houses on what used to be the shore (!!) where they recently found so many bodies
Where was the shore? Where all of the foliage now stands?
Over the bridge where the ancient city was- which city? Pompeii or Herculeneum? Were these two cities right on top of one another-- that close?
I guess I'm confused as to where this modern Ercolano is.
Where is this Villa Arianna, is it in Herculeneum where you visited? Do people live in there still after that last earthquake?
Are you going back there? Tell me NO!!!!
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ginny what a wonderful post the text as wel as the pictures. I tried to save he whole page with the FILE SAVE AS feature. your own enthusiasm brings it alive for me. good good good job.
claire
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ROFLMAO.....If someone came in and read these last few posts for the first time they would think our book club has lost its minds.... tarot cards, prophecies, foretune tellers, black balls and calling cards, all we need is a ouigi board. I just can't bring myself to comment on all this mumble jumble. There's not only red herrings, but black magic, violet wine skies, red and yellow poppies, and rotten fish to boot! I reserve the right to wait for more information. Since we have only one day left, I'm going to go ahead and read the next assigned pages. If Carol was half exhasted in writing this book as we are running around trying to figure out these clues, I'd say she needed a longggggg vacation on a nice beach some where when she finished. 8)
Ginny, go draw up a nice bubble bath, light some scented candles, pour yourself a nice glass of wine (I prefer Lamsbrusco myself) relax and breathe......
Those pictures are fantastic, thank you.
Ciao for now................................
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Eloise and Gumtree, I have the best of both worlds; I AM into mysteries, and I'm very interested in the archaeology.
Gumtree, even some of us who haven't been lucky enough to get to Australia have been exposed to the swagman who stuffed a jumbuck into his tuckerbag in Waltzing Matilda, even though we needed the footnotes to know what in meant.
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My problem with Tarot card meanings is that there are too many possibilities--reminds me of horoscope readings from the paper. My guess is we'll find out later what these cards mean and we might as well wait. No real point in speculating, is there? It does seem that the cards spook Sophie a little[/b].
Also, some of the cards aren't even Tarot figures. Maybe we've got mixed media.
You're right, reading a Tarot fortune is an act of creation and you can make what you want of it. I bet you remember some rather creative Tarot readings in Robertson Davies' books.
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Please don't forget to post your questions for Carol for this week. We will be contacting her soon and she'll respond to all of your inquiries.
Bella- it is kind of humerous when you combine them all together like that.
Andy
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Thanks for the photos, Ginny. They are wonderful.
PatH--Right. We're not talking about Tarot cards here. These are little cards with things like frying pans on them. IF the Tarot deck were involved, we surely would have had the hanged man by now. He always figures prominently.
Andy--The old coast line was down by the boat houses which you can identify in the photo because they look like little aqueducts, side by side, at least 8 of them by my count. Bottom of photo. I'm no expert on ancient cities (ask Ginny) but I think it was the practice to build one city on top of an old one, and then another, and so forth.
Bellamarie--I'm with you, time to read the next section.
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Deems, are you serious, one atop the other? I thought only graveyards built one on top of the old one. brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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The site of ancient Troy has something like 9 layers of cities. I forget if they are still arguing over which one was Homer's Troy.
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QUESTION FOR CAROL
Just as I was interested in the name Elgin I was also interested in the meaning of Lyros. It is a city in Greece , a mystical Kingdom where humans and elves interbreed, much related to music themes and even lyros Herkulaneum-an 8 inch friction cord.
The question to Carol is : Did she choose names with secret meanings or just at random?
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Hey Andy, a good site is a good site. Don't want to waste it just because the ruins of an old city are there.
Pat H.--That's a lot of layers at Troy, obviously a Great Site!
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Ginny ~ The photos are terrific!
The other city that comes to mind is Jerusalem, where archaeologists have uncovered layers and layers going way back into the ages of the Bible. Actually many places in Israel have been unearthed with histories like that!
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I am so glad you liked the photos! I got blown off again by a storm, our drought is officially ended.
I love the cards, I love that sort of mystery, it really reminds me of Simon Brett's Christmas Crimes at Puzzel Manor (spelled for a reason). But HE will tell you the puzzles as you go, after you get a chance to match wits with him. Except for the last one. He never says! It's up to you, Gentle Reader. Love that book, just love it, so fun to read with friends and try to figure out the ingenious challenges per chapter.
Herculaneum is a little different from other ancient cities built one on another, as it lies buried under as much as 79 meters of solid rock and mud, thrown by Vesuvius in 79AD and hardened. It was rediscovered in the mid 1700's. After a long time a different town called Resina was built there, and modern Ercolano (Herculaneum in Italian) now replaced that. The soil is not soil with layers like Troy of 9 cities or 11 cities: it's solid volcanic rock, unlike Pompeii which was buried under ash, two completely different natural disasters from one volcano. Herculaneum is closer, see map below.
Here's another photo of how close the town is: ruins below, modern city above:
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/hercbelowabove.jpg)
Andrea, yes I took the photos. Thank you Claire and Everybody, I think they fit the discussion.
On that 1st picture when you said the city is close where the people are entering Herculeneum, where are they entering FROM?
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/herc2.jpg)
(I blew up the photo but lack the ability to put arrows on it) The people are actually entering and exiting, that used to be the exit, but in 2008 they would be entering here. They would have come from the area from which the photo was shot.
To enter Herculaneum you cross the ruins of Herculaneum, the ancient city, on a huge bridge, and look down (see the next to last photo originally posted ) and walk a LONG way, all the way across the ruins, to the place where the photo was shot (see the green railing?)
The real Villa dei Papiri is to the left here from this point down a road. Normally to enter the ruins you'd then walk again up to where the people are, and take the path angling straight down , normally they won't let you cross that bridge the people are on to get in, to the area which Deems has identified correctly as the boat house area, those arches were the boat houses for the water which is no longer there. It's a very atmospheric walk, somewhat spooky.
Once in the ruins you would exit from the top where you can see the people. That's the way it normally is. In 2008 you simply go where the people are and enter that way because of all the construction.
Over the bridge where the ancient city was- which city? Pompeii or Herculeneum?
Herculaneum
Were these two cities right on top of one another-- that close?
I guess I'm confused as to where this modern Ercolano is.
See above, modern Ercolano is slap over the ancient city Herculaneum. See Map below for where Pompeii and Herculaneum are.
Where is this Villa Arianna, is it in Herculeneum where you visited? Do people live in there still after that last earthquake?
The Villa Arianna is one of several huge summer homes built on the seaside here in Stabiae:(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/pompeii/mapplinyvesuvius79ad.jpg) In one place in the book they mention looking out at Misenum, which is also on this map.
Since you asked, see below for the Villa Arianna, also 2000 years old, also a ruin. Tell you no about going back there? Not with a broken leg this year unfortunately, doggone it, have had to cancel.
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Since Andrea asked about the Villa Arianna it might be useful to know that the gigantic Villa dei Papiri was not the only colossal home in the region.
In A Regional Muse (page 397) Carol relates her trip to the Villa Della Papyri and I had the most marvelous adventure to the Villa Arianna last year (Italy is magic anyway), and since it's similar to the one Carol relates in the Muse, I thought I'd share it, you might be interested.
I had seen the DVD and traveling exhibit Stabiae and I wanted to see the Villa Arianna, (also excavated by Karl Weber) and the Villa San Marco, both huge villas (but there are more in the area), located in Stabiae. Many of these mammoth villas were summer houses and sat on the edge of a cliff to take advantage of the view. Since I am not crazy enough to drive in Italy, I use a local driver and it's a good thing I did.
"Arriving" at the Villa Arianna (a side street in a slum in the city of Castlemaria de Stabiae) he pointed out to me that there were no signs,, nothing on the street to indicate we were there. We turned off a rough city street into a rougher looking empty lot of rock and dirt: nothing, and no signs. We stopped and got out. Huh?
There was a long dirt road like a driveway to the left which you could clearly see led to the back of somebody's back yard and a couple of tin outbuildings, and little pens and so forth, er….I turned to say well let's go instead to the Villa San… and he immediately set off walking down this private driveway trail, ending up in the guy's back yard. Horse, chickens, pigs? In the city. Vespa parked, horse eating grain, no owner to be seen but he must be there. He pointed this out laughing. Er… ah…. I'm thinking how embarrassing is this, let's get out of here and it's a good thing I have known you for years or I'd be spooked. (Sophie and I are a lot different radar wise) hahahaa
But before I finished that sentence he spun and there on the right was a long rock and dirt road to a small metal building WAY down there and nothing else, with three motorcycles and a car outside and two women hanging about the motorcycles neither of whom looked …well it did not look like something anybody wanted to walk into.
Er...let's go.......says I. Driver heard "go," and struck out down the road, and after much happy conversation in Italian it appeared we had actually arrived! But where's this colossal villa?
Out, after more conversation in Italian, came a guard from the tin box. We were to climb down, he and I. Steps. The Villa lay below. (Boy was it) He only spoke Italian and one leg was shorter than the other so he had a bad limp, I felt very bad because it was a long way down but he walked better than I did. The rooms were almost all locked.
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/stabiaevacage.jpg)
He had to unlock almost every one with a key: we were the only ones there, and even partially unexcavated it is HUGE!!
The Villa Arianna is 140,000 square feet, not all of it open or restored, but enough of it to kill you.
The more interest I showed, (I mean it just never stopped) the more animated he became and the more determined he was that I understand what I saw, we formed quite the camaraderie, despite the fact it must have been 200 degrees in the shade and my Italian is strictly limited to "Italian in 7 Days for Travelers."
The earthquake photos above are from this same Villa Arianna, perched on a cliff, he gave me to understand all the modern houses beneath had been covered with the water at one time, which came right up to the Villa. It's amazing how you can communicate without adequate vocabulary.
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/stabiaevafishpool.jpg) Here is a piscina (I did know that one word) a fish pool, in which fresh fish were kept for the kitchens, which are behind that sign.
Here is some of the wall decoration:
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/stabiaevafirststyle.jpg)
Here is my guard friend in one of the many decorated atria.
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/stabiaevafriend.jpg)
He never tired or flagged in his enthusiasm, which grew and grew and I am quite sure he would much rather have been elsewhere. We were there forever. Room after room, it was incredible. As we left and passed the tin guardhouse, and he went in, I told him mille grazie and multo gentile which is the only way I know to say thanks and you've been very kind. He was pleased and went on into the tin hut, and before we got three feet out popped the other guard calling " You like coffee?" hahaha Magic.
THAT'S Italy, to me. We had to decline because we were off to the 65,000 sq ft Villa San Marco, which the U of Md is doing so much work in.
This gigantic Villa San Marco (which is the one previously shown in the discussion with the blasted out holes in the walls) is likewise a treasure.
MUCH easier to access, but my driver ended up giving directions to several cars of German tourists, because the signs are not good there either.
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/stabiaesmcourtyard.jpg)
This gives you some idea of the courtyard, looking across to the continuing peristyle which surrounds it: the inner areas are so vast you can't get them in a photo. This villa had its own private Thermal Baths.
Here's the reflecting pool they are reconstructing:
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/stabiaesmpool.jpg)
Nice Europa and the Bull mosaic on display:
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/stabiaeeruopsandbullmosaic.jpg)
Bull closeup:
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/stabiaeeuropabulltiles.jpg)
And here at the Villa San Marco are found some paintings on the walls which are amazing. Long thought to be fantasy houses, or imaginative renderings, they are now thought to be actual depictions of the actual luxurious villas which lined the coast. There are a LOT of these, everywhere in the area, and all different!
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/stabiaefresco1.jpg)
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/stabiaewallpaintings2.jpg)
But if you could see the reconstruction of the Villa della Papyri, now in circulation in DVD form, you would gasp. And we haven't even mentioned the giant Oplontis. :)
And now we're in our last day of this section, any parting thoughts or things you'd like to talk about??
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Why can't that person simply leave a message in English?
[From the heading]
Very good question, and I hadn't thought about it before. What was the point in leaving the cards. If someone wanted to convey a messge to Sophie, what was wrong with plain English? Of course, that wouldn't have been very
interesting, would it? I think we must just put this one down to a means of
keeping the reader intrigued. And it has certainly succeeded in that, hasn't it?
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OMG Ginny, these are just incredible photos. I know how you love travelling to Italy and your eye shows it. I have a few comments about what you've shown us here in these pixs that you took with Igor but am scheduled for nursery duty today at church.
Out, after more conversation in Italian, came a guard from the tin box. We were to climb down, he and I. Steps. The Villa lay below. (Boy was it) He only spoke Italian and one leg was shorter than the other so he had a bad limp, I felt very bad because it was a long way down but he walked better than I did. The rooms were almost all locked.
Did he have a hunchback by any means?
I had no idea (and I read the Pompeii book) that Herculeneum was closer to Vesuvius than Pompeii.
The villas are amazing, beautiful, old and wonderful to look at through your lens.
I am so sorry that you can not return this year, I feel so bad for you as I know how much you love Italy.
I shall return.
Again, thank you for sharing your treasured pictures with us here. I can't believe how it actually takes me right to The Night Villa.
I know Ginny, The NV is fictitious. ;D
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I heard a statement yesterday that was interesting, I was watching the movie International with Clive Owen, and he is trying to reveal that the IBBC is involved in selling meaningless weapons to terrorist nations. When is is trying to get the officials to agree to go after the IBBC the supervisor says, "The difference between truth and fiction is, fiction has to make sense." hmmmm so some where in the next pages, I am assuming this is all going to make sense.
Off to church as well so check back later.
Ciao for now...................
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Ginny: Thank you for sharing your photos - they're just wonderful to see and I loved the commentary of your tour of Villa Arianna. It sounds just fabulous.
I'm reading David Sider's book about the Villa dei Papiri - it's amazing how much information he conveys about the history of the discovery of the papyri as well as about the villa itself. Doesn't your heart bleed for all the papyrus rolls that were destroyed when they tried to unroll them. I wonder how many were actually lost. Shame they didn't wait a few centuries for the multi spectral imaging techniques to come along and do the job of deciphering them.
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Thank you, Ginny, for the fine photos and the fascinating narrative. I felt as if I were in the car with you, also speaking no Italian, and communicating with gestures (I don't even know the twenty words for travellers). I loved seeing that long bridge you have to cross to get to the ruins--it looks very long indeed.
Mille grazie, Ginny.
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Thank you Ginny for those wonderful photos. I plan on coming back to them often. I sent them to my son so he might be tempted to bring me there next September when I visit him.
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Ginny, your photos are wonderful, and all the information you are giving us so valuable. I think back now, to twenty years ago this summer when I made my one and only trips to Capri, Pompeii, and Herculaneum. It wasn't a waste, but I was a no-nothing tourist, and I would be aware of and learn so much more if I went again, now. When did you first visit this area. I know you've seen changes over the years. I am so sorry you had to cancel your trip.
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Are we to make anything about the twins -- the servants at the villa in Capri -- Guilla and Theresa? We already know of the likeness between Iusta and her mother. And we know about the Pythagoreans beliefs in likenesses and opposites. So here we have identical twins who are opposites -- one who smiles and has loved, one who never smiles and has never loved. Will they play a part in the remainder of the book?
I'm trying to fit the cards into likenesses and opposites --
Sun --- Moon
Broom --
Falling man --
Masked man --
Frying pan --
I give up for now.
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More amazing photos, Ginny. Do they know who lived in the Villa Arianna and Villa San Marco? I love the mosiac with Europa and the Bull. Do you think I can get my contractor do do that for my bathroom remodel at a reasonable price? Hah, not a chance!
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I am so glad you all liked them!!
Eloise, I hope you can take a day trip south when you come, I am sure your hosts want you to see everything you can! As spectacular as the villas at Stabiae are, Oplontis would be my choice if I only had a day. You know how it goes, if you only have a day? I'd go to Pompeii first and then on the same train that goes back to Naples, you go instead toward Sorrento and you stop at Torre Annunziata and about a block from the train station is Oplontis. Signage is perfect and clear. Nobody is ever there, and there is nothing like it anywhere..
Just look: http://ad79.wetpaint.com/page/Oplontis
It's jaw dropping and now I see they've started on another one. Oplontis has just been emerging since the mid '60's.
Margie, no they don't know who lived in the Villa Arianna. The book In Stabiano says, Unfortunately the true identity of the owners of this villa, albeit of a high social class, remains a mystery. We know only that of the 91 Roman aristocrats who owned property along the coast from the latter part of the Republican era to the Empire, two names are cited for Stabiae: Marcus Marius, a friend of Cicero's who himself spend some glorious days in a villa...whose view of the sea from a cubicle remained impressed upon the mind of the writer, and Pomponianus, who sheltered Pliny the Elder the tragic night of the eruption between 24 and 25 August AD 79, and whose villa was equipped with a landing-place.
Did you catch that 91 Romans owning these palaces? And only a very few are so far found.
Oplontis was thought popularly to have been owned by Poppaea, the Empress Nero's wife and it's opulent enough for an Empress and the art is out of this world. I would NOT miss it on any trip to Pompeii or Herculaneum. The average visitor spends 2 hours in Pompeii so it's doable. Hard as that is to believe.
Margie, makes you want to pick up a tile and a hammer doesn't it? hahaha
The Twins, I still think the Twins are going to account for something, good thought on opposites, Pedln! I've been to Pompeii something like 16 times, I've really lost count, some years I go every day, have been going now for 24 years but not this year. Much less in Herculaneum and Ostia which I really like.
Gum, ISN'T that the most amazing book? SOMEWHERE in one of the books is an itemized list of how they tried to open them, all the methods they used, absolutely incredible. There's no telling what they lost. Loved the bit about they would ruin the inside which was about their best bet for reading. I guess it's a good thing half of Pompeii is still buried but they really are doing amazing restoration.
hahaa Bellamarie, I hope you're right on the fiction has to make sense! If not, it's been a good ride, I've loved the entire experience.
I am glad you liked the photos Andrea, the guard in one of them IS the person who took me down. He was actually quite handsome if somewhat short, and VERY nice.
Deems you are right, the bridge and the huge arched iron gate you have to go thru first are VERY impressive, it's quite well done.
Babi that's a good point, let's see if Ely answers it!
But now back to our story, I just about jumped out of my seat! Tomorrow's the DAY!
What fun!
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1. Was there an actual "The Reverend F. P. Long, MA, Sometime Exhibitioner of Worchester Coillege"...who was "Published by the Clarendon Press in 1911?"
2. The statue of Nyx is beautifully described. Where did you get the idea for it?
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QUESTION FOR CAROL
Carol, When you wrote NV, did you ever get confused with so many different books you were using for your research and material?
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Spectacular website, Ginny. I've bookmarked it. I was just reading some of the Graffiti they found. ::)
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Ginny, I enjoyed your photos. You are bringing back memories of my last trip to that area which was a couple of years ago.
Thanks for the link to the Oplontis site. That was my favorite place. I took a gillion photos there but alas I have not idea where they are. It is truly spectacular. I am sure that I have the photos somewhere. Some day I will hunt them out just to look at them again and enjoy that beauty.
Joan Grimes
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Joan Grimes, Wow how exciting to have just been to such a magnificent place just two years ago. I can only hope to go one day. My grandparents were from Italy and its my dream to one day see Naples, Venice, and now Capri seems like a for sure don't miss visit.
Ginny, so you have been so many times you have lost count. How blessed you are to be able to travel. I am jealous....OOPS after reading this book, I won't use that word too loosely. :-X I hope your leg has mended so you will be able to pursue your adventures.
Can't wait to begin discussing the next pages. WOW! if I can trust what has been revealed in this section, which I am not 100% sure I do, then my first theory and suspicions are holding true. But then as someone pointed out, there are red herrings and for some reason I am suspecting a set up. Hmmmm....let the discussions begin.
Ciao for now.....................
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Ginny, I checked out your Oplontis site. Beautiful pics, but I do not recommend wandering into the "Writings on the wall" section, very gross and sexual sayings inscribed. How sad, it seems from this book, and the research I have done, and now this, only confirms to me, that women were so horribly used and abused for the sake of men's pleasures, and some women's as well. And the bisexuals, homosexuals and acts even with animals, shows how "love" did not enter their hearts. I get the feeling it was all about control, power and possession. tsk tsk
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I just have time to make a few incorrect predictions before curling up in bed with the next section.
What is Lyros after? He certainly seems powerfully motivated--he's funded this project, and he's after something. When he figures out where Phineas' scrolls might be, he speeds up the excavation to a dangerous extent.
Elgin is helping the FBI in their investigation of the cult, and he shows signs of still being fond of Sophie, but I somehow don't trust him to be a good guy.
We have at least two hidden Tetraktys members: one in the expedition and one, cooperating with the FBI, in a "safe" house in Sorrento. Sophie thinks she has seen Ely several times. Could he be the cooperator? It seems a bit much to endure 5 years of silence to infiltrate an organization, though. Maybe he's on assignment for Tetraktys.
Lyros is the suspect for the Tetraktys in the expedition--so much so that I suggested there might be a second one, and picked Maria, but my reasons occurred in the first few pages of chapter 17. She obviously has her own agenda too, though.
Simon and George Petherbridge are still rather shadowy. Suitable "least likely suspects".
And we still haven't even gotten to the murder.
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I'm not going to be the first to break open the egg here. :o
But I do agree with Sophie -- in spite of his reputation, I'm beginning to like Phineas, too.
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PatH
It seems a bit much to endure 5 years of silence to infiltrate
an organization, though.
I agree, PAT. If Ely is now working for the FBI, I would think it more
likely that something happened while he was there that changed his feelings
about the Tetratkys.
About Lyros, I'm looking at Sophie's feelings re. John’s advances: “I have the feeling that when I try to draw in my next breath I won’t be able to, and for the life of me I can’t tell whether this is attraction or fear. Whatever it is, I need to get out of the car.”
Personally, I’m a firm believer in paying attention to one’s gut instincts. It you feel a strong need to get away,…that’s fear. And it’s usually well-founded.
Sophie’s dreams about Odette are definitely telling her something. My own experience is that dreams can be very informative, bringing to conscious awareness perceptions that have been buried at a sub-conscious level. In this dream Sophie looks into a pan and sees that it holds a pecan pie. A pecan pie associates closely with Ely. Sophie is telling her this is the wrong pan and the wrong day. I suspect that the ‘wrong pan’ is a reference to Ely. I'm not sure
what the 'wrong day' is suggesting.
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The so-called family emergency that caused Maria to run off sounds unlikely. I can't figure out her agenda at all, nor what she was doing on the laptop, which she slammed shut. Is this a red herring, or will we find out her role in the following chapters? ???
The meaning of the cards, or at least where the cards come from, is given as soon as we start reading this section, so please scratch my question to CarolGoodman. Apparently it's easy to buy a copy of the "card-game" at a pharmacy in Italy. However, it remains confusing about why such cards are used as messages. Does anyone else understand it?
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Good morning! Lots of great thoughts here today as all is revealed...er....some is revealed... or is it?
Who do you trust?
I have to say it was all I could do yesterday when I finished this section last night not to come running in here and scream I KNEW IT!! I knew it! I was wrong, however, (I think, or was I on the cards).... I am not sure actually but pegged yon Lyros! YES!!
Don't you hate people who say that? But if you look carefully it's all there. Jumped right up at the top of page 279: Agnes's woman professor: I had him then! YOU, I said! YES, gotcha!
So he NEEDS Agnes's woman professor. Why?
So I'm 1/1 and have NO idea who the operative/ informant remains, what was going on with Simon and what is happening to Agnes? See heading?
But who is the missing operative/ informant? What is Maria doing? There are only 6 of them in the room (don't you love a locked door sort of mystery? One of YOU is the culprit).... and ONE of them is the informant leaking stuff to the FBI, who is it? Is Lyros the ONLY Tetratkys in the room?
-------Mippy I'll fix the question and if you look up Tombola della Smorfia you'll find another surprise. :)
--------Joan G, isn't Oplontis out of this world? It really puts you back in time. The frescoes alone, since this is a modern excavation, they have to leave the stuff pretty much where they find it, it's just you and the tremendous rooms, that GARDEN!, gorgeous wall paintings, just...pretty much indescribable.
---------Bella I am not sure where you and Margie are reading graffiti, but I assure anybody who wants to go to Oplontis you won't see anything but fabulous stuff, or if you do you're better than I am. Was it in the room that stays dark until you move? The latrine? I don't think most people would look or stay there unless they knew to move about, there's much too much else to see. I spent half a day there in a dream. No graffiti, not sure what you guys are talking about, I can't seem to find it. Maybe I should have put this link instead:
http://www.pompeiisites.org/Sezione.jsp?titolo=oplontis&idSezione=1168 which only shows the left half of the building as you look down on it, it's too big to get into the shot.
More in a sec...just had to come in and see the !!! from everybody on the plot! hahahaa
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QUESTIONS FOR CAROL
1. How has being a published author changed your life? Do you follow a set schedule for writing? How does it feel to see your books in the bookstores?
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Mippy wrote, "The so-called family emergency that caused Maria to run off sounds unlikely. I can't figure out her agenda at all, nor what she was doing on the laptop, which she slammed shut. Is this a red herring, or will we find out her role in the following chapters? Huh "
Me too. Any time anyone slams shut a laptop, I assume the worse. What is it that I'm not supposed to see? As if I could see anything from off to the side here.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!---Joan R.
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(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week 3: Through Chapter 24:
It's All in the Cards
What a chapter! Revelations, surprises, but even more secrets, what did you make of it?
1 Talk about unreliable narrators, what do you think of Phineas? Is he reliable? Is Ely? Do you believe Ely?
2. Who is the yet unnamed operative still at the site?
3. The cards and their meanings are revealed!! What are two possible flaws in Ely's plan to use them?
4. " I see Agnes, looking not only very much alive but the picture of health. Her cheeks are pink and her eyes glowing as if she'd just finished a morning jog." (page 232). What's going on with Agnes and why?
5. Are you clear on how the two parallel plots intertwine here? We've only got a small section left. What has Phineas's part in the rites got to do with the hunt for the Golden Verses?
6. What do you think Simon was arguling about with Lyros? What do you think he was struggling to say to Sophie?
7. What do you think Maria was doing on the computer? (page 206) Do you buy her emergency family trip?
8. Betrayal as a theme has just raised its head. How is it paralleled exactly in the two plots?
9. How much do you think Maria saw when she came to look for Sophie? Why couldn't Ely have taken her to land somewhere instead of the swim?
10. "....be careful not to hurt Agnes or Agnes's woman professor." (page 279). What need has Lyros of Agnes's woman professor?
11. What do you think is the most important part of this section and why?
12. What does Sophie's dream about Odette mean? What is meant by the wrong pan and the wrong day? (Babi)
13. What's with the diabetic complication that caused Simon, our artist, to die? (Andrea)
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/hr_blue.gif)
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/sounionb.jpg)
The Temple of Poseidon
Sounion, Greece
Where "Phineas" got the scrolls
Schedule
Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22
Chapters 25-End for June 23 - 30
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
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Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/villaweber1.jpg)
Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.
New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!
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Babi what an excellent question on the dream of Sophie, I've put it in the heading, and your equally excellent question about the day and pan. The pan is really getting to me, what fun!
Pat H: How interesting that you see two Tetratkys there out of the 6. We SHOULD be able to eliminate them, we know Lyros is one and Sophie is not the other, so that leaves 4.
Two of the four are acting suspiciously unless you consider Elgin suspicious (is he the informant, it would seem so?)
But you hit the nail on the head with this one:
What does Lyros want?
Supposedly he wants the scrolls.
What I ask does he need Sophie FOR? Agnes can translate as well as she and so can Elgin. Agnes is used to Phineas.
Supposedly he needs her so she will broker the trade in the Justa diary with the Golden Verses scrolls, but....? Anybody could do that?
So why Sophie? Something important here.
And Deems and Mippy on Maria, we don't have much of a clue about her, we're, as Deems said, over here watching, sort of a third parallel actually, to the plot, kind of like Sophie reading "Phineas," actually. All we can do is watch and wonder. The reader as the third plot.
I really think she's been extremely clever here. Not too many books can stand up to this type of scrutiny.
Since the Temple of Poseidon at Sounion is mentioned so many times in the text I put a snap of it in the heading, it's where "Phineas" "got" the scrolls in the first place, pretty, no?
Pat said, Elgin is helping the FBI in their investigation of the cult, and he shows signs of still being fond of Sophie, but I somehow don't trust him to be a good guy.
I don't either! Who DO you all trust in this section?
I sure don't trust Ely. I think Sophie has been hornswoggoled by Ely and her old feelings. The water combined with her feelings of her mother have moved her toward decisions about him I'm not sure I would have made. She wants to get back what she lost, with her mother and with him.
Yes he saved her. But even Lyros wants her alive.
Sophie's immersion in the water seems to have brought about a rebirth in feelings and enlightenment, about her mother and about her feelings for Ely. I don't trust him one bit, where does he get the money for that boat?
hmmm?
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I'll take the opposite position here on Elgin. I don't buy Sophie's point of view on him. His actions seem honorable to me, and in some ways he acts very like some of the professors I have known. As for the affair, Sophie was a graduate student at the time and apparently a willing participant. There's no mention of pressure or doing something for a grade. He has been supportive of Sophie's work and properly concerned about her dissertation. Why can't he be the hero? This book seems to need one. Sophie's perceptions are sometimes reliable and sometimes not. She certainly seems wrong about his interest in Agnes. I'm not seeing that. I do see his interest in Sophie.
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Ginny,
NO idea who the operative/ informant remains
I am going nuts!!! I have a ton to post but NO time today with the day care kids here. But I have to tell you Ginny, my bet is on M"Lou the other operative. Only time will tell. More later.
Ciao for now.................
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Ginny, regarding your question about the graffiti; I was cruising through the whole site you had posted earlier. The graffiti is under the "Writing on the Wall" section on the home page. I think they were all found in Pompeii. http://ad79.wetpaint.com/page/The+Writing+on+the+Wall
Well, at least we find out what the cards stand for, but that still leaves WHY! Is it simple a code stating, "Sophie, I am here"? Or something more? Is Ely the one who is placing them? The last three are on her bed. That means he would have access to the villa undetected.
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Thank you Margie, those graffiti are quite interesting, actually. Love the word block, almost a perfect palindrome.
I liked these, very famous of course: O walls, you have held up so much tedious graffiti that I am amazed that you have not already collapsed in ruin.
A copper pot went missing from my shop. Anyone who returns it to me will be given 65 bronze coins (sestertii). 20 more will be given for information leading to the capture of the thief.
These are not in Oplontis and are quite well known. The racier of them might be found in any men's bathroom or the old telephone boxes in America.
Good I thought I missed something! :)
Frybabe: Well, at least we find out what the cards stand for, but that still leaves WHY! Is it simple a code stating, "Sophie, I am here"? Or something more? Is Ely the one who is placing them? The last three are on her bed. That means he would have access to the villa undetected.
OR is he getting his accomplice to put them there? Isn't THAT spooky? I vote for Elgin as that accomplice.
Who else? Maria? Hardly. OR? Agnes? George? The Twins?
Deems: It's Ely I have the least trust in, oddly enough Elgin in this bit to me seems somewhat remote. I think I'll swing 360 degrees and agree with you. (Is that in keeping with the Pythagoras touch, a math illiterate wants to know?) hahahaa I don't trust Ely one inch.
Bella: M'Lou as operative? That's creative! Supposedly it's one of the 6 but what if it is NOT?
Love it.
Those cards have more problems than what is she supposed to do with them, but that's a good point, what IS she supposed to do with them? I like the "out of the frying pan into the fire" elements of this story, particularly this section and I love the group here and how we're reading it.
Love it.
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I am so glad you all liked them!!
Eloise, I hope you can take a day trip south when you come, I am sure your hosts want you to see everything you can! As spectacular as the villas at Stabiae are, Oplontis would be my choice if I only had a day. You know how it goes, if you only have a day? I'd go to Pompeii first and then on the same train that goes back to Naples, you go instead toward Sorrento and you stop at Torre Annunziata and about a block from the train station is Oplontis. Signage is perfect and clear. Nobody is ever there, and there is nothing like it anywhere..
A day Trip you said? I woudn't want to go if it's only for a day, 3 or 4 days is not even enough to see the Amalfi Coast and Capri. I just can't zip through things like that. I like to stop and look for HOURS. We would be driving down because it's only about 5 hours from Switzerland.
Your pictures and links are so tempting and since it's positively the last time I will go to Europe, I would like to include the trip to Italy. I have time in the three weeks I will be there and if they don't want to go I can always take the train.
I finished the book and anything I say would be a spoiler, so for the moment I will just read the discussion.
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OK- maybe I've not read far enough yet, but what's with the diabetic complication that caused Simon, our artist, to die? That's a stretch of the imagination isn't it? Even Sophie thinks so and so far she is none too bright.
Deems I see that you have a liking toward Elgin. ::)
This literally had me laughing aloud.
Elgin always tells his students and colleagues that he was named after Lord Elgin the British earl who brought back the Parthanon frieze from Athens, known there after as
the Elgin Marbles
BUT the truth , as he admitted to me after a night drinking Coronas & tequila shooters on his boat on lake Travis, was that he was named after the town of Elgin,where he was born-- nineteen miles east of Austin, famous as the sausage capital of Texas.
Now that is funny Carol, good humor there. The earl throwing back Tequila and Coronas is indeed quite a picture.
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Sorry, Ginny, I misread you. I don't like Ely either. Once a cult member, always a crazy person in my book. I think I lack empathy. It would help if Ely and Elgin didn't begin with the same two letters!
I did find it fascinating that Sophie--in the Ely in the cave and on the boat scenes--didn't exclaim, "Why did you leave?" Why did you never tell me you were OK? Odd.
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Deems you lack empathy hey? Perhaps we should appoint you to the Supreme Court bench! ;D
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Posting at the same time. Hi Andy.
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-----Eloise! You are so right. I misunderstood, I thought you only had a day to swing by there, you go, Girl! It's like nothing else on earth, I do hope you can go with your son, how wonderful.
AND hopefully you'll come back and tell us ALL about it with photos! Do a LOT of reading up on it before you go, it will mean more. Maybe Francoise's book, just the English bits?
------Andrea!! Only Andrea ( a nurse and formerly of an ER too if I recall correctly would know that)...so WHAT did happen to Simon? Hmmm? Or who?
------Deems did you say murder earlier? We haven't gotten to the murder? Whose murder?
And why didn't Sophie ask Ely why he left? Good one, putting that in the heading too.
Sophie's radar is not operating at full strength here, I think. Like a lot of us, perhaps, she's seeing what she wants to see and not doing a lot of questioning. Why?
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good one Andy! Actually, I only lack empathy for people who join cults. I know, I know, they are sad people who are empty and searching. No empathy. For others I have empathy so I'd be fine for the court. Please call Obama and nominate me. I wouldn't even have to move.
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I second your nomination, Deems! hahahaa
Countrymm!! I was looking back to make sure I did not miss anybody yesterday when I saw this: SHRIEK!!
Ginny, what a wonderful site you provided. Too bad I wasn't aware of this project when I visited the Bodleian Library at Oxford several years ago. My son was teaching at Oxford then. He is a paleobiologist and does continuing archaeological work every October in Egypt. His interest is human evolution though, not papyrus scrolls!
http://www.herculaneum.ox.ac.uk/herculaneumarchaeology/Suppl1/DeSimone.html
Holy smoke, that's fabulous. Kudos to son!! Will he take us all to Egypt on one of his digs? I love Oxford. My only connection with it was taking a course one summer but I'm a fan for life. Tried to get our Books group to go but it never made, so Ella and I went the week or so before, and then I went on by myself, will never forget it.
Loved it. I still hear from others in the class.
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Honestly what's to like about Phineas? He strikes me as a narcissistic, dirty old man.
Yuk
Really, I can almost feel him drooling and leering as he considers the evening with Iusta. He's not trust worthy, he's all for Phineas. He did however understand the # 21 representing the Pythagorean product of seven and three.
I like these numbers that keep popping up.
Three sets of three (Ely's obsession of 3's.)
The Fibonacci Sequence? Oh I am so out of here now. prime #'s, digits of pi? BYE!
Calatoria, the snobbish hostess exclaims that she's been presiding over the rites for the past 17 years and hoped to continue for the next 17. NOT going to happen Calatoria.
Remember La Disgrazia? The # 17 which is unlucky . I guess Calatoris can kiss her tenure of #17 years good bye!
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Deems,
Why can't he be the hero? (referring to Elgin)
For me its obvious Elgin still has feelings for Sophie. I actually have liked Elgin from the beginning. Elgin knew how much Sophie wanted to get the info on Iusta to finish her book. I sensed he was genuine in wanting her there for her book and because he wanted the chance to be close to her, possibly protect her and to lure Ely out to get in contact with her. So Elgin, (my Richard Gere) could still turn out to be the hero. (ending up with my Julia Roberts just like in Runaway bride and Pretty Woman) Ahhh the romantic in me just took over for a second.
Ginny, Those cards have more problems than what is she supposed to do with them, but that's a good point, what IS she supposed to do with them?
The whole part of Ely and Sophie was too perfect for me. I think he is setting her up. The dates are something he wants her to remember because they meant something to him. He has been obsessing about those 3 things that changed the outcome of his life. Sophie will not only feel sentiment for the first time they made love and the birth of their child, but she will feel guilt for sleeping with Elgin, making it easy for him to get her to trust him. Remember little Mermaid and Ovid..."she's in love, "It's too easy."
The three questions Ely was chanting...lines of the Greek Hexameter verse comes to mind with them 3 cards.
Where did you go wrong today?
What did you accomplish?
What obligation did you perform?
So now I have to start suspecting Agnes because I have never trusted her from the beginning. I didn't buy the poor forlorn Baptist girl. Now we find out she was raised by nuns her first 2 years. So who on earth can remember anything from the age birth to two? I sure can't, so something else has caused dear pitiful Agnes to hate nuns and anything Catholic. If Agnes is a Terakty then it would make plenty of sense why she threw her barbs at Maria, and she hates nuns/Catholic. Simon was trying to alert Sophie about Agnesssss when his lung collapsed. SSSSSS sound
The Teraktys want to prove they are the ones who will have the "creation". pg. 277 "Sixth century document that accurately predicted the birth of Christ and claimed that Christ was the re incarnation of a Greek philosopher. Imagine the controversy it would cause Christianity, not to mention other religions. Power it could give a group like the Teraktys, which claims to represent Pythagoras. Others who would want the scrolls to protect their church." I don't buy Ely had a change of heart and decided to work with the FBI. He spent too much time devoted to that cult. And..he was spurned by Sophie finding out she had slept with Elgin. A converted man...I don't think so. Like I said earlier I think Agnes was spurned by Elgin and Ely by Sophie. The two of them join the Tetraktys and vow to get their revenge on Elgin and Sophie. Agnes enticed sophie to join he dig saying she would be the only woman there, knowing Sophie has been protective of her. Again, Agnes knew when Sophie was standing at her window late at night when she couldn't sleep. I asked then....HOW did she know?
Sophie and Elgin are the targets. Ely and Agnes are there not only to get the scrolls for the Tetrakys but to avenge their rejections. Remember the Poseidon!!!! Jealousy is a deadly weapon, revenge is the ultimate satisfaction.
Okay so now that I think I've figured it all out....I suppose Carol is going to turn this whole thing upside down in the next pages. Oh by the way, I do believe John Lyros is the leader of the Tetraktys, that is where he got his money, and that is where Ely got his for his fancy boat.
Now for mysterious, Maria. Who is her aunt that she had to dress properly for? The same person I suspect she was sending the info to when Sophie caught her on the computer. I've had a tough time figuring Maria out. She had damp hair on pg. 234 She could care less Simon just died. She is a woman on a mission, but for who? We figure out who the aunt is, we have our answer.
I do think M'Lou is the hidden person in Sorrento helping Elgin with the FBI, I just don't see her letting Sophie go to Italy so soon after her hospital stay in the condition she was in, without knowing she would be there too to keep an eye on her.
Red herrings, indeed there are. More later. Have to run quiet/nap time is almost over here in the land of day care.
Ciao for now...................
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Andrea,
Honestly what's to like about Phineas? He strikes me as a narcissistic, dirty old man.
ROFLMAO...I have liked Phineas from the start because I have trusted he is who he says he is, a rougue, theif, and someone who had the scrolls. You just can't help liking Johnny Dep in Pirates of the Carribean. Remember Phinea did not want to sleep with Iusta when Caltoria send her to him. He had to or it would have caused ill effects on Iusta for not being pleasing to the guest. Phinea trusted Iusta. Iusta reminds me of Agnes.
I suspect Iusta stole the scrolls form his trunk. That little minx, to think Sophie felt sorry for her and Agnes. Sophie is just too trusting and lacks judgement. Maybe due to the fact she had no mother to instill in her confidence and grandparents who put her down all the time. Sophie so wanted Iusta to be freed and back with her mother, for her own sake as I pointed out early on. When Sophie over identified with Iusta its because I think for Sophie knowing Iusta was free and back with her mother, it would give Sophie the closure she needs to be free.
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Deems,
I did find it fascinating that Sophie--in the Ely in the cave and on the boat scenes--didn't exclaim, "Why did you leave?" Why did you never tell me you were OK? Odd.
I don't see that odd at all, because she is living with her own guilt telling him she slept with Elgin which in her mind is why he left and fell member to the cult.
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Bellamarie, Do you think the three sets of cards have anything to do with Ely's three sentence chant??? Might be worth thinking about.
I agree with you that Iusta stole the scrolls. She had her own agenda - to get back her diary. She gets him to do the dirty work so that if he is caught, it's on him, not her.
I also agree that Sophie is too trusting. She lacks common sense and good judgment. I've met a few very intelligent people who have no "street sense".
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Sophie acts too much out of emotion. She wants to be loved and accepted, so much so she is willing to overlook the obivious flaws and signs in people and puts her trust in them too easily.
pg.24 "If only you had heeded the portents and signs!"
Unless Carol is going to change Sophie's character into a 180 in the very last pages of the book, I have to say she is highly educated in book knowledge, but is so uneducated in the real world. She is just too trusting. Where have her instincts for danger ever kicked in? Not that she would heed them and act on them, except for diving under the table when shots were being fired. But then wouldn't anyone know to hit the floor in a situation like that?
Simon's murder is pretty obvious, Agnes took care of him. Agnes glowing like she ran a marathon.lolol Well she could tell Simon was trying to warn Sophie about her.
Biddle and Odette's murders were collateral damage.
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ALF: What's with you? You don't like narcissistic old men?
Are you looking for HEROES in this bunch?
I think just as we are suspicous of everyone so are the members of the group jealous of each other. Everyone has an agenda except for Sophie who is hard to picture as the Heroine after she just falls into Ely's arms like that. How does he get into the Villa? Has he moved from the Cult to the FBI ? I'm afraid life is not that simple. But then again maybe in this book it is?
A friend gave me a subscription to BAR (Biblical Archeological Review) some years ago.Along with some interesting Archeological material the pages are filled with never ending, drag 'em down fights about who discovered what first, who's interpretation about which object is correct and what are you basing your opinions on when everything you say has been disapprovedd! No, it hasn't! Yes it has!
Of course they use very serious archeological language to say these things but it gets tiresome. I usually end up looking at the magnificent illustrations.
Maria seems to be very Church oriented and so may be looking for some Christian material hidden in among all the pornographic bits. I asked in my last post about the meaning of the name Lyros. Since no one answered I decided that it may be connected to leering. What say you?
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Frybabe,
Bellamarie, Do you think the three sets of cards have anything to do with Ely's three sentence chant???
Indeed I do, that is why I posted it. It is the Tetraktys mantra. Those were his 3 things in his life that changed him.
1. Where did he go wrong? Falling in love with Sophie.
2. What did he accomplish? Getting her pregnant, he did not seem to regret the unwanted pregnancy.
3. What obligation did you perform? He stayed with her until she was unfaithful to him even though he was wanting to become a member of the Tetrakty. Now he will get his revenge.
And I could be all wet just like Sophie. ;D ;D ;D
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JudeS,
A friend gave me a subscription to BAR (Biblical Archeological Review) some years ago.Along with some interesting Archeological material the pages are filled with never ending, drag 'em down fights about who discovered what first, who's interpretation about which object is correct and what are you basing your opinions on when everything you say has been disapprovedd! No, it hasn't! Yes it has!
Of course they use very serious archeological language to say these things but it gets tiresome.
Throughout all times there has been and will continue to be a conflict, controversy and struggle to be the "ONE" who is responsible for the creation and the truth about Christ. Many a wars have been fought and are continuing and will go on in the name of religion, to discredit one faith or the other. Its all about, Power, Control, Money and Possessions. Like in Poseidon, the key to the sea is the power, in Th Little Mermaid Triton's trident would give the power to possess the sea. In Night Villa the scrolls are to be the key to the cult or churches to have the answer which equates into power.
Is now and ever shall be............
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Deems, "I did find it fascinating that Sophie--in the Ely in the cave and on the boat scenes--didn't exclaim, "Why did you leave?" Why did you never tell me you were OK? Odd.
Bellamarie:
"I don't see that odd at all, because she is living with her own guilt telling him she slept with Elgin which in her mind is why he left and fell member to the cult."
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Yes, yes, you are so right, Bellamarie. I went back and reread Chap. 21 in which Sophie (in her past tense mode) tells us what happened when she and Ely returned from his parents' house. They came to an agreement of sorts and she began a course with Prof. Lawrence (Elgin). As Ely spends more and more time with Tetraktys, Sophie begins hanging out with and then having an affair with, Herr Professor Lawrence. We discover why Elgin is so against cults (his sister died with the Branch Dravidians) and also Ely discovers that Sophie has been having an affair. He leaves the very night that he makes the discovery and goes off to hang with the raggle-taggle gypsies-oh, sorry.. . . .with the Tetraktytian dudes.
When Sophie first mentioned the affair with Elgin, it was not at all clear that it happened while she was with Ely. I assumed that she had an affair with Elgin and then met Ely. Unreliable narrator. And brain not always fully in gear as Andy pointed out.
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Andy--I don't like Phineas either. He goes on and on and on about things and is certainly a narcissist. My diagnosis which I have no right to make.
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JudeS- oh my yes, I love narcissistic old men, young men, all men. Thank God for that because I have known a few like Phineas. ;D
I guess Bella's right, he's a rogue and he knows it.
Frybaby, those 3 questions drove me nuts when they first appeared in the book. I really can not imagine myself lying down at night and questioning my actions throughout the day. Good grief, I'd never fall asleep. The Tetraktys were formidable though, I will say that.
As far as the definition of the name Lyros, could his name be the masculine form of Lyra?
Lyra is thought to represent the harp of Orpheus.
On older skymaps Lyra is represented as a bird: Vultur, the Vulture.
Deems- you and I would make a great pair. We'd clean up this mess, wouldn't we?
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You know the more I read this book the dumber Sophie has become.
What is wrong with her?
When she cautioned Ely about the Tetraktys being watched by the FBI and he asked her where she had obtained this information she told him "from a student that was researching cults."
Now how dumb was that? Didn't she see Elgin's name and fax # at the top of the page? That's weak! Please !!! ... then she admitted to an affair with him.
Again dumb!! She expected Ely to "give up" his new cult faimly and embrace her. Again-- DUMB!
dum-dumb-dumb-dumb.. the plot thickens.
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Maybe she's not a good liar. Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive, I thought it was somewhat endearing, myself, it reminds me of somebody else near and dear who can't think fast on their feet. hahahaa
However, all of what Pearson would call my spidey senses are screaming and she is not on red alert, she's not on any alert, so she's apparently very trusting, as Bella says.
In that she's like Phineas, he was trusting, too, at least her radar came out with Lyros in the car, that's good. Phineas's radar seems back at Go. I have to think that he's going to regret this.
How many of these people have betrayed somebody so far?
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-Sophie has betrayed Ely
-Ely has betrayed Sophie.
-Lyros if we believe Ely (!) has betrayed them all.
-Iusta in this story has betrayed Phineas by stealing the scrolls (if we think she did, somebody did).
-Phineas betrayed whoever he told he would not speak a word of this, was it Iusta? And wrote it down.
Who else?
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Ginny you're way too kind, I fear. How bright was she making love to Ely 10 seconds after he had to breath air into her lungs from her near drowning?
Ah, hello, one lung shot up, no air for a long period of time, hallucinations of The Depths of the Sea painting and her mother(anoxia) I don't care how breath-taking this dude is she has no breath!!!
Drats I can't seem to get that image of The Depths of the Sea in here. I'll be right back.
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Andrea,
You know the more I read this book the dumber Sophie has become.
What is wrong with her?
ROFLMAO...Andrea, you totally crack me up. I love your spunk!
I don't see Sophie as dumb. I see her as very naive, trusting, and a bit blind to danger and evil. She is a good person and sees the good in things. Although, I do think Carol may have gone a bit over board with Sophie's naivete. Her instincts did kick in to hide the cards and game from Lyros, so even though she sat at dinner contemplating staying the night with him and his violet eyes, something stopped her. I think our narrator tried too hard to make Sophie's inability to see the clues etc. by logical explanations, but as logical as they seemed they had me scratching my head going....HUH??????
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(http://www.bestpriceart.com/painting/?pid=41676)
The Depths of the Sea
How about that? I clicked on it before and it was there, now it has disappeared. The painting will probably be found with those damned scrolls.
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Ginny, I am the one who thinks Iusta stole Phinea's scrolls. I see Iusta as our dear little Agnes. Not so innocent as the narrator would like us to believe.
Andrea, I am with you on Sophie falling into Ely's legs ...lololol as soon as she could breathe. That girl had some pent up frustrations for him in a bad way. lolol Me thinks had Ely not showed up, she may have ended up with Lyros. She was being captivated by his eyes and attention. That girl needs a good mother figure to teach her how to spot a cad when you see one. :o
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Yeah, well I think she needs something else!!!! ::)
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Andrea,
I don't care how breath-taking this dude is she has no breath!!!
Kinda like mowing a lawn the day she comes home from the hospital with half a lung shot out. She's a TEXAN! Sorry Carol, no disrespect intended. We are having a little fun... ;D Guess our pent up frustrations are getting the best of us.
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Like a brain, Andrea?? ;D
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hmmm well no, I was thinking she needed a gentleman. Any ole gentleman will do apparently because she's not sure if she's got the hots for Lyros or Ely, or BOTH!!
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1. Was there an actual "The Reverend F. P. Long, MA, Sometime Exhibitioner of Worchester Coillege"...who was "Published by the Clarendon Press in 1911?"
2. The statue of Nyx is beautifully described. Where did you get the idea for it?
Yes! I found Reverend F.P. Long, Sometime Exhibitioner of Worchester in another book, but I'll have to go through all my Latin translations to figure out which book he translated. I'll take a look.
Nyx's appearance in the novel has a curious history, related to the book's title. Originally this book was going to be called The Little Mysteries, which I thought was a rather clever, off-beat title. Unfortunately, no one at my publisher's got it. Why little? the marketing department asked. So, as is often the case (i.e. in every book I've written since The Lake of Dead Languages) I was asked to think of another title. The obvious title--The Villa of the Mysteries--was a no go because an author named David Hewson had recently used it (I wanted to use that title for my previous book The Sonnet Lover, but had given it up when I met Mr. Hewson at a Random House cocktail party). I eventually came up with The Night Villa by playing around with dozens of words associated with the book (villa, sirens, mysteries, pan, cult ... my husband at some point suggested "All Female Killer Cult"). I liked the sound of it and had heard of the goddess Nyx somewhere, but I started researching her in earnest once I had the title (in other words, there wasn't a statue of Nyx until I came up with the title, which was after I had written the first draft of the book). I found the Hesiod quote and when I Googled Nyx I I came up with some gorgeous cameos on ebay that showed the goddesses of night and day. (I really wanted to buy one, but they were all too expensive). That's where I got the idea for the cameos she sees. And now, after I've told you all this, I'm not 100% sure where I came up with the description of the actual statue. I think I may have made her up based on the cameos.
So there's a long-winded answer to your question! If anyone can come up with a statue of Nyx that looks like mine, let me know and I'll tell you if I looked at it.
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QUESTION FOR CAROL
Carol, When you wrote NV, did you ever get confused with so many different books you were using for your research and material?
Confused how?
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Welcome back Carol, I hope that some day you will be able to display Nyx on your coffee table.
She certainly has had us hopping in here.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!---Joan R.
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(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week 3: Through Chapter 24:
It's All in the Cards
What a chapter! Revelations, surprises, but even more secrets, what did you make of it?
1 Talk about unreliable narrators, what do you think of Phineas? Is he reliable? Is Ely? Do you believe Ely?
2. Who is the yet unnamed operative still at the site?
3. The cards and their meanings are revealed!! What are two possible flaws in Ely's plan to use them?
4. " I see Agnes, looking not only very much alive but the picture of health. Her cheeks are pink and her eyes glowing as if she'd just finished a morning jog." (page 232). What's going on with Agnes and why?
5. Are you clear on how the two parallel plots intertwine here? We've only got a small section left. What has Phineas's part in the rites got to do with the hunt for the Golden Verses?
6. What do you think Simon was arguling about with Lyros? What do you think he was struggling to say to Sophie?
7. What do you think Maria was doing on the computer? (page 206) Do you buy her emergency family trip?
8. Betrayal as a theme has just raised its head. How is it paralleled exactly in the two plots?
9. How much do you think Maria saw when she came to look for Sophie? Why couldn't Ely have taken her to land somewhere instead of the swim?
10. "....be careful not to hurt Agnes or Agnes's woman professor." (page 279). What need has Lyros of Agnes's woman professor?
11. What do you think is the most important part of this section and why?
12. What does Sophie's dream about Odette mean? What is meant by the wrong pan and the wrong day? (Babi)
13. What's with the diabetic complication that caused Simon, our artist, to die? (Andrea)
14. " But why would she make up such a story in order to go report to the Church. She is there as a Church representative, and reporting to them would be natural and appropriate. No,...she must have been doing something else." (Babi) What do you think Maria is doing?
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The Temple of Poseidon
Sounion, Greece
Where "Phineas" got the scrolls
Schedule
Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22
Chapters 25-End for June 23 - 30
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
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Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.
New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!
QUESTION FOR CAROL
Just as I was interested in the name Elgin I was also interested in the meaning of Lyros. It is a city in Greece , a mystical Kingdom where humans and elves interbreed, much related to music themes and even lyros Herkulaneum-an 8 inch friction cord.
The question to Carol is : Did she choose names with secret meanings or just at random?
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I picked Elgin originally because of the Elgin marbles, but then remembered it was also the name of a Texas town famous for sausage and loved the juxtaposition.
I think I just made up the name Lyros because I liked how it sounded. I might have been thinking of internet search engine Lycos. I'm fascinated with the city in Greece! Where did you come across it?
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Hello Carol, I hope you did not mind us having a little fun today.
When I asked if you ever got confused, I meant from all the different books used for research.
Did you find yourself having to go back and check how each one was fitting in to the story?
I read Ovid's Metamorposes, watched the Little Mermaid and then went on line and read about Poseidon..." Initial Stages of Creation", I took as many notes as I could to try to tie these in and wondered if while you used many more references than me, if you ever got confused going from one book to the other.
Kind of like, Carol"And now, after I've told you all this, I'm not 100% sure where I came up with the description of the actual statue. I think I may have made her up based on the cameos.
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Carol, bless you, there you are. Remember if you get stumped with our wonderful site here, Ginny, Marcie or I am here for the asking. Please feel comfortable enough to ask us for what ever you might need.
I love this: Since my novels often use similar themes of mythology and folklore, though, I find that the research for one often sets up the reading for the next book.
Now I must inquire, what IS the title of the next one and what will it be about?
The next book is ARCADIA FALLS and it will be published in March, 2010. This one is set back in upstate New York (after the two Italian books I was ready to return to New York again) and is set at a private school that had once been an arts colony founded by two women who wrote and illustrated fairy tales. So the book calls on fairy tales and folklore more than mythology.
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Thank you, Carol, for answering our questions. We must be annoying at times! But hey, we're readers, a breed that needs to be humored. ::)
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Andy--We are of like mind
You wrote, "Ginny you're way too kind, I fear. How bright was she making love to Ely 10 seconds after he had to breathe air into her lungs from her near drowning?"
Sophie seems a little man-hungry to me, always thinking that any man is secretly--or not so secretly--coming on to her. Mowing the lawn after being shot in the lung makes more sense to me than nearly drowning and then making love immediately upon being resuscitated.
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Deems,
Mowing the lawn after being shot in the lung makes more sense to me than nearly drowning and then making love immediately upon being resuscitated.
Pick your poison. :-[
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How bright was she making love to Ely 10 seconds after he had to breathe air into her lungs from her near drowning?"
When you consider what resulted from the last time Sophie had unprotected sex with Ely, how bright was she to make love to him at all? Oxygen deprivation clouding her judgement?
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PatH,
Oxygen deprivation clouding her judgement?
Sophie has had clouded judgement throughout the entire book. Seems she does like the attention of men and can be persuaded quite easily to sleep with them for what ever reason or situation. How close was she to accept Lyros proposition? Guess she could have used a good father figure in her life as well as a mother.
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Well, a day of thunderstorms means a night of trying to catch up with you all. Carol, many many thanks for answering all our questions. And I look forward to Arcadia Falls, which sounds like we’ll be learning a lot from it too.
Well, Ginny, guess you were right about John Lyros. He’s a skunk.. What a shame. And we know Elgin doesn’t like him. I was pulling for him, and Elgin. I agree with Deems – Elgin has been nothing more than honorable.
Sophie is the one who has provoked me. Many of you have characterized her as either dumb or naïve, and I’ll go along with that. But she’s also been dishonest. She really led us down the garden path – into thinking that she didn’t get involved sexually, romantically, with Elgin until Ely had gone to New Mexico. And now we find out that’s WHY he went to New Mexico.
Bellamarie, do you think those cards mean anything more that a means of supplying the anniversary dates? And I hope you’re wrong about M’Lou. Sophie needs a steadying hand (we’ll forgive the lies of five years ago) and from what I’ve seen so far, M’Lou is about the only one who can supply it.
Andy, don’t worry about all the math. Believe it or not, there is a picture book that should help solve your problem. Math Curse, (By Jon S.) when MRS. Fibonacci puts a curse on a boy who sees everything in his world as a math problem.
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pedln,
Bellamarie, do you think those cards mean anything more that a means of supplying the anniversary dates? And I hope you’re wrong about M’Lou. Sophie needs a steadying hand (we’ll forgive the lies of five years ago) and from what I’ve seen so far, M’Lou is about the only one who can supply it.
With this book anything can have more than one meaning. When you think you have something figured out, our narrator throws us a curve ball.
As far as my thoughts about M'Lou I have changed my theory she was with the Tetraktys in my more recent post, I do think M'Lou is the hidden person in Sorrento helping Elgin with the FBI, I just don't see her letting Sophie go to Italy so soon after her hospital stay in the condition she was in, without knowing she would be there too to keep an eye on her.
I agree with you Pedln, I am hoping M'Lou will be the one family member in Sophie's life who has had her best interest at heart. Could she deal with yet one more personal loss? I have not cared for the character Sophie from the beginning. I felt she was just not a woman that took charge of her own life, has been a bit reckless in her sex life, choice of men, poor judgement putting her health and life at risk, and lack of instincts for danger and evil .
The narrator may have led us to believe Ely left to join the cult, resulting in Sophie turning to Elgin. Although, we may have assumed that on our own, because it really never was clarified until in these pages, when the narrator took on speaking in the past tense.
Ciao for now.............
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I don't agree that Elgin has been nothing but honorable. He is being so now, and may even turn out to be the good guy, but he had an affair with Sophie when she was in his class and still living with a boyfriend, and that isn't honorable.
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Pat's post brought me up short, about Elgin:
I don't agree that Elgin has been nothing but honorable. He is being so now, and may even turn out to be the good guy. He's being so NOW. They are doing their own Metamorphosis! Just like Ovid and Apuleius, another parallel. What will they all turn out to BE?
I guess I did a Sophie all through this book, and was just taking everything at face value, I could hardly take in her account of what had really happened, wow!
So she really IS (or is she?) an unreliable narrator. She held this back, and she's been somewhat not forthcoming, not particularly emotional, in the entire book, radar not out, (but it seems to be coming out now at the end of the book, why?) we're just finding out who these people are.
They are all masked men! All playing a game (the rites) within a game, plot upon plot. That can't have been easy to write.
Thank you Carol for the super answers. I loved the one about Night, and the cameos.
I love the game, the cards. I can't find a copy and desperately want one, I want to see the illustrations. They are all sold out on the internet, the Smorfia ones. There are other versions, I want the Smorfia. The more I read this book the more I see in it.
It's like shape shifting or smoke and mirrors. What a movie this would make!!!
Harrison Ford, Tom Hanks, eat your heart out~ hahahaa
Frying pan. I bet I have looked up the word frying pan in online Italian dictionaries a million times, I don't see the word for it in the list on the Smorfia site. There must be another word.
Problems with the game: what was Ely thinking? That she would recognize the dates of their particular anniversaries? If the guy had not come along by accident (or DID he? Was HE an FBI plant to explain the game?) she would never have known, would she?
So she has dreams, nightmares, I would, too, but I would be on the first boat out of there, bunch of nut cases. But she had known some of them before, Agnes, Elgin, so that must make it less likely she's in the company of seriously deranged people. What would YOU do at this point, seriously?
IF Ely had simply written a note, hi, I'm here, must speak to you, meet me at the grotto or meet me in town at the funicular or meet me......wouldn't that work also? WHY the cards?
Why?
WHO is the informant? 6 people. Not much known about George, I'll erase him. Not Lyros (love that info on the name, I had looked it up in a Greek dictionary and did not see anything), good one. Not Sophie. Not Sophie.
That leaves Agnes, Maria, and Elgin. ONE of you, as Poirot says, is the killer.
It's got to be Elgin for the FBI, if we like him, so that leaves.....ta da! Agnes or Maria? Which?
I think this calls for a SeniorLearn Research Trip, let's all pack our bags for Sorrento, and so some research! hahahaha
What I still cannot figure out is how Sophie corresponds to Phineas in the parallel plots? Wrong gender? I'm going to go back and read Simon's little bits to find out maybe what he and Lyros were arguing about, and what he found so troubling. Something is wrong here.
I don't have a problem with her rushing into a sexual relationship with him, guilt, unfinished business, abandonment, the lung thing, she nearly drowns, she gets caught, she had an epiphany (where is Norma) about her mother, she is overcome with emotion, he was her former husband, she's trying to reclaim what she lost in the past. She was, for once, overcome with emotion, perhaps she thinks better without it. :)
But what's on YOUR mind today? Everything is rushing like the tide to a climax. Can you reconcile these parallel plots?
WHY Sophie? That's the Issue du jour with this thing for me, but what's YOUR main issue here?
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Jolly good points today, my friends. (as the Brits would say)
I am betting that Maria is one of the good guys here, Ginny. We are suspecting Agnes to be the demon, rearing her ugly head soon and I think that she will fit the bill. I will point out a couple of reasons that I am leaning toward her when I return from water walking at the pool. It's cool now and if I don't go quickly it will soon be in the 90's.
I am leavng for NY on Thursday morning to visit the kids/grands families and have to lose 28 lbs. before I leave. do you think I'll make it?
Talk about RO ::) ::)FLMAO. I could walk for a year of Sundays and not lose 28lbs.
ARCADIA FALLS- Carol's next novel, due out in 2010. Let us now vow to include that in one of our future discussions.
Question for Carol- Where in NY does this take place? Is this another "Yaddo" tale around a fictitious Saratoga/ Glens Falls venue?
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Am way behind here. Although I am quite positive I put the book inthe coach, at this point, I cannot find it. Hmm. so I have not read this weeks portion.
Pedlin,, we are now in Sevierville,TN onour way up to western New York. We will be here today and leave tomorrow for Beckley WV.. and then up through Pennsylvania.. going to Chatauqua,NY for a few days.. Am looking out a a river directly in front of the rv.. Beautiful site,, very empty since it is a new park. Been dealing with the inherent problems of digital tv's, routers, and the box which is needed even though the tv's are new.. The router box is not, sigh.. Why is it whenever anything is new and improved, you go nuts.
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Yes indeed! Ginny I said earlier, you have to clear away the clutter, because these people keep changing, That's why I asked Carol if Sophie was supernatural or a figment of a dream, and if she ever got confused writing the book with so many books of references trying to keep all these characters straight.
But did, the narrator really lead us to believe she had the affair with Elgin after Ely left...or did we assume it, because at that time we saw Sophie in a better light? I've never trusted Sophie from the meeting with Agnes. Sure the narrator has offered and peppered in logical explanations for her actions or non actions, but my intuition kept saying....hmmmm. Notice how each time Sophie did not act on what the narrator was pointing out........then came a sorta logical explanation. So if you were not in a book discussion and reading this at leisure, you would tend to skim over these and take them for face value, or maybe at least not question it so much.
PatH, None of the characters have been nothing but honorable. Their flaws were brought out early on, I guess depending on who each of us chose to like, trust, believe or identify with is who we found a bit more honorable or faired better in our minds. Its interesting how the narrator let us know early on that Sophie had an affair with Elgin and was concerned Agnes did too. We were suppose to not like the character of Elgin early on. For some reason it did not bother me he dated undergrads. They were all over legal age.
Okay, lots more to figure out.
Ciao for now..................
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Steph one of my best friends comes from Chataqua,NY. what takes you there?
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Bellam-
But did, the narrator really lead us to believe she had the affair with Elgin after Ely left...or did we assume it, because at that time we saw Sophie in a better light?
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No! (she hollars) the narrator told us that that was WHY Ely left. Not after Ely and she split but during his "obsession" with the cult- the days and nights that he started to pull away from her. That's when she had the affair, not after he left. When I get home I'll find the page.
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Andrea,
I am leavng for NY on Thursday morning to visit the kids/grands families and have to lose 28 lbs. before I leave. do you think I'll make it?
ROFLMAO....I have the same struggle. I am a Weight Watcher lifetime member, worked for them for 10 years. I stopped working for them, had a hysterectomy gained and joined Jenny Craig 4 yrs ago, lost 20 lbs quit going 2 yrs ago. Now here I am still struggling to lose that 20 lbs. all over again, hmphhh July 5th we go to Great Wolf Lodge in Sandusky with the entire family, I'm hoping to shed at least 10 by then. Oh how I hate swimming suits.
Steph, your trip sounds heavenly. Sorry about the digital confusion. Yes, they keep changing things so we have to keep buying things new. grrrrrr
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Don't have time to read all the posts this morning.
Good observation, FRYBABE. I hadn't really registered that. I see that Ginny
has already noted that Ely may have a cohort there. But I can't think it is
Elgin. I don't believe Elgin would be a party to the clandestine planting of the
cards.
The question remains, of course,...why use the puzzling cards at all? Perhaps it issimply a gambit by the author to add to the mystery.
DEEMS, did you mean 'Why did you leave' me, or 'why did you leave' the cult? Actually,
she wouldn't have needed to ask in either case, would she? She believed he left to
join the cult because he learned of her affair with Elgin. And he left the compound
because his five years of silence were completed.
I wonder if it is her sense of guilt towards Ely that makes her so vulnerable to him?
GINNY, maybe Simon was murdered. What if the cave-in was not an accident, and the missing
information about his diabetes was deliberate? Perhaps we do have our murder.
Oh, no!, Bellamarie. Richard Gere in any role is a dead giveaway that he is the hero,
not a villain!
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Andrea,
No! (she hollars) the narrator told us that that was WHY Ely left. Not after Ely and she split but during his "obsession" with the cult- the days and nights that he started to pull away from her. That's when she had the affair, not after he left.
pg. 8 "Not Agnes, too. She hasn't gotten caught in his web, has she? Elgin Lawerence has a history fo seducing his teaching assistants, and Agnes is just his type_and not just because she's beautiful. He preys on young girls who are insecure. Agnes's father might have thought he was doing her a favor by scourging her of vanity, but he would have done better to instill a sense of self-worth in his daughter."
pg. 10 "Well, Dr. Lawerence does have quite a reputation you know," I tell her, hoping to get in a little warning about Agne's future romantic plans as well as her past ones. I'm afraid it doesn't seem like she has the best track record, but then, with my romantic history, I'm not really in a position to judge."
I didn't trust the narrator at this point because I am not one who tends to see choices made in affairs with adults young or not, the fault of just one person, regardless of their reputation one person says.
These two places Sophie is telling us "SHE lacked in her judement in men, but I think readers could skim over this and see both Elgin and Ely as the bad guys where she and poor little Agnes was concerned.
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Babi,
Oh, no!, Bellamarie. Richard Gere in any role is a dead giveaway that he is the hero,
not a villain!
I totally agree that is why I casted him as Elgin! You must not have read my more recent post.
Keep in mind, I like many have been seeing these characters change as I turn the pages. Like I said, this whole entire book is like the yen and yang.
Okay off to the sun and water with the day care kids. Check back at nap time.
Ciao for now................
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Ok, I haven't quite finished the last two chapters for this week yet, BUT I sure would like to know how Ely knew (assuming it wasn't ANOTHER coincidence) that Sophie was on the rock at the grotto. Also, I was under the impression that people stuffed away in safe houses were not allowed to just gallivant off whenever they wanted.
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hmm Frybaby- that is a good question!
Why indeed did Ely just happen to be sailing right by that spot where Sophie was enjoying the sun and the shore?
That never occurred to me before how he seems to know exactly where she will be and when.
Who is the other cohort in crime that is filling him in on the details of Sophie's agenda????
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Good points, Frybabe. Perhaps Ely was hanging around hoping to find a chance to speak to Sophie. She's spotted him before; perhaps he's been looking for a chance for a while.
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I just love all this conjecture...so many possibilities and no answers yet.
It seems to me that Ely is the bad egg - as Frybabe put it people stuffed away in safe houses were not allowed to just gallivant off whenever they wanted. Ely really cant be the disenchanted cult member who Elgin mentioned to Sophie - he's safe in the safe house.
So what is Ely doing there? It's unlikely that he put the cards in Sophie's bedroom but Lyros may have done so or had one of the twins place them there for him...My money is on Ely and Lyros and the villains.
The picture we have of Elgin has mostly come to us through Sophie who I think we all agree is an unreliable narrator - at least some of the time - so maybe her perception of his actions is not accurate - maybe he is true-blue -maybe he is to be the hero.
I can't see Richard Gere as Elgin - Elgin is blond and six feet two inches tall !
Is Maria a red herring? The ploy of having a family emergency just didn't ring true in any sense - and why did she have to titivate herself and change into high heels - her family would know she was working on a dig and would expect to see her appropriately dressed for the work.
Simon's death is a mystery but if he was diabetic it should have been emblazoned on all his records. He appeared to be eating and drinking fairly freely which diabetics ought not to do.
I think ALF should be punished for reminding me of the 28 lbs I need to lose - by Thursday! Perhaps I'll come in the dead of night and leave some cards on her pillow.
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When I said Elgin was being dishonorable, I meant to go on to say that Sophie was also being dishonorable. She wouldn't have been free until she and Ely had split; then she could date anyone she chose. But Elgin wasn't free to date Sophie as long as she was his student. That's a gross violation of professional ethics. The student doesn't really have a free choice, being somewhat in the professor's power.
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Gumtree,
I can't see Richard Gere as Elgin - Elgin is blond and six feet two inches tall !
Oh but my dear friend Gumtree, Richard Gere and Tom Cruise are my ONLY two men at the theater that are "MY" leading men and heros. They fit any and all parts for me, for me none other will do! lolol It's my fantasy so I get to pick. Now that does not mean you can't choose your very own! lololol Afterall, Simon did use his feature in his statue creation.
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PatH,
But Elgin wasn't free to date Sophie as long as she was his student. That's a gross violation of professional ethics. The student doesn't really have a free choice, being somewhat in the professor's power.
With all due respect, she was his assistant and over the legal age. She had a choice and she made it. If that is enough to gross you out, then the entire sick frescoes, rites and activities in Capri must be unthinkable. I can deal with a Professor dating his assistant who is an udergrad working closely together as they did. Sparks are bound to fly. Afterall look at our dear President Clinton. How do we know neither of these ladies did not pursue these men of power and position. The narrator has not been entirely fothcoming, and by Sophie's own admission she has poor judgement. I read Monica Lawensky's book and she admits she did everything to get Clinton to notice her.
Now before any one gets all crazy on me, I am NOT advocating any of this behavior and the older man in postion and power should have been the wiser in their decision making. BUT....we can NOT ignore these affairs happen and by the choice of both parties. Regrets down the road...I would imagine so. Don't we all have some regrets with our younger more carefree days?
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Yes, Gumtree, it's great fun to speculate, and there are so many twists and turns to the plot that all our theories may get blown sky-high in the next section. Here's my current take on Maria's agenda:
The hypothetical manuscript supposedly has Pythagoras predicting the birth of Christ, Pythagoras reincarnated. Maria, acting for the Church organization PISA, wants to get hold of the MS to suppress anything damaging to the Church. She presumably went off to report the current development (the empty chest) and plan what to do.
Surely unless the condition were very mild a diabetic would need careful monitoring during the stress of such serious surgery. Either they would have already discovered the situation or he would have come to grief during the surgery.
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I'm glad we got the puzzle of the cards sorted out - at least we know what they are now though I haven't seen a Tombola set for years and doubt I've ever seen a Smorfia one.
When Sophie found the cards on her bed and then laid them out to work out what they might mean:
I stare at the numbers for a long time, willing myself to see some pattern in them, trying to remember patterns that meant something to Ely. I remember he liked the Fibonacci Sequence, prime numbers, the digits of pi, and palindromic numbers, but none of those seem to fit these numbers...
I thought perhaps the mathematically challenged ones among us (are you there Ginny?) might care to know a little more about the the numbers and sequences Ely liked.
Fibonacci Sequence : As anyone who has read Dan Brown knows the Fibonacci numbers were discovered in 1202 by the Italian, Leonardo di Pisa (or Fibonacci) regarded as the first original mathematical thinker since the Greeks.
The sequence is:
1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377... arrived at by adding each number to its immediate predecessor eg 13+8=21.
The sequence itself originally related scientifically to the breeding of rabbits and was the first example of applying maths to the reproduction of animals.
The ratio of each number to the one before it decreases rapidly at first, then levels out to approach the 'Golden Ratio' of 1.61803... The Golden ratio is evident in the proportions of the Parthenon which is an example of math in aesthetics.
Prime Numbers: Prime numbers are those numbers such as 2, 3, 5, 7, 11 which cannot be broken up into factors ie. they can only be divided by two numbers - the number 1 and themselves.
The Digits of Pi: Pi relates to the arithmetic of the circle referred to as the Quadrature of the Circle and was one of the three great math problems of antiquity (ca. 500 BC). Archimedes (ca. 287-212 BC),was the first to compute the value of Pi to three or more decimal places. Since 1500 mathematicans have been obsessed with increasing the number of decimal places for Pi and during the 20th century the Chudnowsky brothers built their own super-computer and calculated the value to about 8 thousand million decimal places. Subsequently Takayama's calculations increased the decimal places to about 38 thousand million. If written on a strip of paper Takayama's decimal places would stretch several times around the equator.
Curiously, if Ely was interested in patterns there are none to be found in the Digits of Pi because Pi is a transcendental number. Pi is one of a group of numbers which cannot be obtained from an algebraic equation and hence is said to 'transcend' algebra.
Palindromic Numbers: These are simply numbers which read the same either forwards or backwards i.e 12321. This is analogous to words or sentences such as this one attributed to Napoleon:
Able was I ere I saw Elba
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pedln wrote:
"Sophie is the one who has provoked me. Many of you have characterized her as either dumb or naïve, and I’ll go along with that. But she’s also been dishonest. She really led us down the garden path – into thinking that she didn’t get involved sexually, romantically, with Elgin until Ely had gone to New Mexico. And now we find out that’s WHY he went to New Mexico."
pedln, I agree. I'm reading the book on Kindle, and pages are difficult for me to find (disadvantage to Kindle--it's harder to flip around and find things). Can you find the section early on that led you and me to think that Sophie's affair with Elgin did not coincide with her time with Ely? You thought the affair came after Ely left for NM and I thought she had the affair before her living with Ely. Obviously up front somewhere, our narrator (Sophie) is withholding, obfuscating, being dishonest (with herself, with us).
Yes, Ginny, she is an unreliable narrator, at least in all the parts of the story that deal with her personal life and her observations about others.
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Haloo GUM! Now I'll go back and read your post.
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The Golden Ratio and the rectangle made in these proportions was thought by many of the Greeks to be the most aesthetically pleasing. Believe it or not, we all stare at a Golden Rectangle many times a day. The standard light switch plate is almost a perfect Golden Rectangle. Mine measure 7.0 x 11.5 cm, less than 2% off.
The Fibonacci sequence is found repeatedly in nature, for example in the spirals of the chambered nautilus shell and the arrangement of sunflower seeds.
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I am leaving the numbers to all of you. That is one path I refuse to go down. In the very beginning of the book I researched Plato's Pythagorean theory and what I could conjecture was... it comes down to one person, church, cult or group wanting to attain "proof" to claim the creation and the beginning of Christ, so they can discredit one or the other religions or theories. Whoever has the "proof" possesses the power! Just like the keys to the sea and the trident. That's as far as I am willing to go with all these numbers. Good luck to all of you who are able to go further, I marvel at your knowledge and tenacity.
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I agree PatH about Maria's involvement with PISA but I wonder, do you think that she can represent the church as well as possibly being an informant?
Like Gum said, she just might be a red herring.
Gumtree- I think ALF should be punished for reminding me of the 28 lbs I need to lose - by Thursday! Perhaps I'll come in the dead of night and leave some cards on her pillow.
Yes, yes, punish me. Send me to my room with another bowl of chocolates. ???
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Andrea[/b
]...Yes, yes, punish me. Send me to my room with another bowl of chocolates.
You are soooooo much fun!!!!! Have a great visit upstate with your family and safe travels.
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Oh there it is, thank you Gum- the Fibonacci Sequence :
As anyone who has read Dan Brown knows the Fibonacci numbers were discovered in 1202 by the Italian, Leonardo di Pisa (or Fibonacci) regarded as the first original mathematical thinker since the Greeks.
I knew I'd heard of it but had forgotten where. AHA, it was Dan Brown, right!
Prime Numbers and Palindromic Numbers- I've got those.
The Digits of Pi
Curiously, if Ely was interested in patterns there are none to be found in the Digits of Pi because Pi is a transcendental number. Pi is one of a group of numbers which cannot be obtained from an algebraic equation and hence is said to 'transcend' algebra.
OK now my eyes are starting to glaze over as interesting as that sounds. :'(
PatH- come again please- sunflower seeds? I don't get that one.
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Ginny - I saw on page 224 the very same definition of the "perfect tense" in Latin that you have been trying to drum into our heads!!! It's as if Carol put that in there just for your classes!
I'll go along with the idea of Elgin as the"good guy" - I like him even if he was called Professor Romeo!
It's absolutely too much of a coincidence that Ely shows up at dawn's early light just when Sophie is sunbathing by the sea. And how could she "fall into his arms" after his 5 years of desertion and silence? No way!
What I like most about this book, I think, is all the side trips it is making me take. One was sort of harrowing, though. I was looking up the Eleusinian mysteries in the Golden Bough ( great resource!) when I happened to read the chapter just preceding it which deals with Dionysus. Pretty blood curdling!! The paragraph on the Cretan rituals has actually given me 2 nights of nightmares!!!
And about corn - somehow I've always had the notion that corn was brought to the Old World from the Americas. Not so. It was a major crop in the ancient world and both Demeter and Persephone were characterized as goddesses of the corn, wore crowns of corn and held stalks of it in their hands.
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JoanR, "Corn" in the old world was grain like wheat or oats. I thought it was one specific grain, but Wikipedia says it is an English word meaning any grain. What we call corn today was called maize. Maize apparently is the Spanish version of an old Indian name.
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Thanks, Frybabe, for restoring my old belief in the origins of "corn". I suppose since Fraser is English and was writing his book back in the 20's, he was using the old world terminology. I did think that ears of corn would make a pretty awkward crown!!!
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!---Joan R.
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(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week 3: Through Chapter 24:
It's All in the Cards
What a chapter! Revelations, surprises, but even more secrets, what did you make of it?
1 Talk about unreliable narrators, what do you think of Phineas? Is he reliable? Is Ely? Do you believe Ely?
2. Who is the yet unnamed operative still at the site?
3. The cards and their meanings are revealed!! What are two possible flaws in Ely's plan to use them?
4. " I see Agnes, looking not only very much alive but the picture of health. Her cheeks are pink and her eyes glowing as if she'd just finished a morning jog." (page 232). What's going on with Agnes and why?
5. Are you clear on how the two parallel plots intertwine here? We've only got a small section left. What has Phineas's part in the rites got to do with the hunt for the Golden Verses?
6. What do you think Simon was arguling about with Lyros? What do you think he was struggling to say to Sophie?
7. What do you think Maria was doing on the computer? (page 206) Do you buy her emergency family trip?
8. Betrayal as a theme has just raised its head. How is it paralleled exactly in the two plots?
9. How much do you think Maria saw when she came to look for Sophie? Why couldn't Ely have taken her to land somewhere instead of the swim?
10. "....be careful not to hurt Agnes or Agnes's woman professor." (page 279). What need has Lyros of Agnes's woman professor?
11. What do you think is the most important part of this section and why?
12. What does Sophie's dream about Odette mean? What is meant by the wrong pan and the wrong day? (Babi)
13. What's with the diabetic complication that caused Simon, our artist, to die? (Andrea)
14. " But why would she make up such a story in order to go report to the Church. She is there as a Church representative, and reporting to them would be natural and appropriate. No,...she must have been doing something else."-- Babi. What do you think she was actually doing?
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The Temple of Poseidon
Sounion, Greece
Where "Phineas" got the scrolls
Schedule
Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22
Chapters 25-End for June 23 - 30
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
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Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.
New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!
Yeah, that puzzled me too JoanR, when I first came across it years ago. I think I was doing a paper on some aspect or other of agriculture in the Middle Ages at the time.
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JoanR wrote, "It's absolutely too much of a coincidence that Ely shows up at dawn's early light just when Sophie is sunbathing by the sea. And how could she "fall into his arms" after his 5 years of desertion and silence? No way!"
Yes, exactly. And earlier he sailed by and waved to her when she and Agnes were on the rock sunbathing. Since Sophie did not tell him where she was, it must have been Agnes.
I don't trust Ely at all--I think he's still in the cult. He certainly has maintained all his old numerical behavior--ringing Sophie's phone 3, then 4, then 5 times early in the novel. Now he's leaving cryptic cards all over the place and skulking about on very expensive boats. Still in the cult and after "The Golden Verses" of Pythagoras. Agnes guilty too because she has to be Ely's informant.
Andy--good luck losing those 28 pounds. You have one more day to do it!
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Thank you Deems, I'm off to a great start. I just returned from dinner with my neighbors. She knows how much I love soup, so we had homemade tomato soup, with cream cheese, onions, chopped tomatoes and milk, in a Panera's bread bowl.
Dessert was an Eskimo Pie made with dark chocolate. I think I'm up about 2 1/2 lbs. after that evening. Yummy.
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Thanks, Andy. That's one conveniently placed right arm! I guess Burne -Jones didn't want to shock his viewers. You need to take the = sign out of the link.
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Your dinner sounds delicious. You can lose that weight later, after the vacation. I'm at Panera right now, having had an equally caloric meal.
But I'm swimming every day so I deserve it.
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Sophie and Ely in the Depths of the Sea
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A nymph or siren wrapped around the body of a handsome youth, dragging him down to the depths of the sea.
Talk about "ghost roots", hey Maryal?
Dang, I thought I had all of this coding down pat, but I swear I don't know where the = sign came in, subconscious perhaps. It's qute a picture isn't it that sophie recalled at the bottom of the sea. Everything flashed before her eyes; her mother, the Mermaid show-- oops there's Ely pressing his body against hers. This was kind of gross to me "his chest, slim hips (maybe I'm jealous) are crisscrossed with waves of light reflecting off the water. LIKE A TATOO OF SCALES. :(
Aha, another transformation for Ginny transformed by a spell- a couple from Ovid whose love turns them into blue-scaled sea serpents.
"Maybe this is what happens when Orpheus goes back into the underworld to briing back Euridice, OR Demeter sends Mercury for Persephone."
This part I love- Facilis descensus Averno.
It's easy to go down to hell, but not so easy to come back.
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What fun reading your posts. So funny....lol :D
Bellamarie...I agree that Simon was trying to warn about Agnes. I think she killed him. Don't know how, but she did. And if our highly educated, but dumb narator would stop rationalizing, she may have saved Simon.
Bellamarie said...
Her instincts did kick in to hide the cards and game from Lyros, so even though she sat at dinner contemplating staying the night with him and his violet eyes, something stopped her.
Yes--rather someone stopped her...Elgin.
Ginny said...
I don't have a problem with her rushing into a sexual relationship with him, guilt, unfinished business, abandonment, the lung thing, she nearly drowns, she gets caught, she had an epiphany (where is Norma) about her mother, she is overcome with emotion, he was her former husband, she's trying to reclaim what she lost in the past.
I have a problem with it...excuses, excuses, excuses.
I also, like Egin, though at first I did not--the romeo thing. But I did not care much for Sophie from almost the beginning. Not that she is a bad person, or a villian...
Joan R said..
Ginny - I saw on page 224 the very same definition of the "perfect tense" in Latin that you have been trying to drum into our heads!!! It's as if Carol put that in there just for your classes!
That "perfect tense" thing jumped out at me too. Good ol' Latin class. Thank you Ginny.
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Sandyrose- I think that it is just awesome (must find a new word soon) that there are so many of you that have joined us here, from Ginny's Latin class. That is a wonderful testimony to your teacher and we are so happy to meet all of you. I hope be enticed to join us for more book discussions, along the way.
Ok Sandy so Elgin is your man of the hour. Now I ask you, how could you not the muscular guy who drives the flashy sports car? He was raised on a pig farm so he can call out
SSUUUUUUUUUUUUU---EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
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:D
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I wish to leave all you phenomenal scholars with Phineas for a while and look at the plot of the book.
I think Simon was murdered. We are three quarters thru the book and no murder?
Poirot would say "Mon Dieu, the little gray cells they tell me that it is not logical."
Sophie continues to be naive but there is no other heroine in sight. Perhaps she becomes heroic at the end or is saved by the REAL HERO whoever that may be. It is not Lyros or George so it is either Ely or Elgin. Both of whom have been Sophies lovers and know her weaknesses and strengths. Notice both names begin with EL which is Hebrew for God. (A shortening of Elohim). But EL is used for the Greek Gods. Ely means my God in Hebrew.
With all his drawbacks I think Elgin will be the Hero. He seems the most mature and clear about his goals. I can't judge him on one sexual indescretion. Perhaps he still loves Sophie and they will walk off into the sunset to teach Archeology together.
Lyros must have an accomplice but is it Ely or Agnes?
Maria (Mother of God) has her own agenda but she doesn't come across as a thief or a murderer.
What are your thoughts on this?
I certainly wouldn't choose my actors for the roles until I know what their real characters are.
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Ginny,
I don't have a problem with her rushing into a sexual relationship with him, guilt, unfinished business, abandonment, the lung thing, she nearly drowns, she gets caught, she had an epiphany (where is Norma) about her mother, she is overcome with emotion, he was her former husband, she's trying to reclaim what she lost in the past.
At first I thought okay here comes the love story part. Then I thought .....wait a minute what on earth is wrong with this woman? She was just making goo goo eyes with Lyros and contemplating sleeping with him. Ginny, it was never pointed out she married Ely, she said they set up house together. Her character has not rung true for me from the first pages of the book. I can't identify with Sophie she is too wishy washy for me.
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I think Simon was murdered. We are three quarters thru the book and no murder?
Poirot would say "Mon Dieu, the little gray cells they tell me that it is not logical."
Notice both names begin with EL which is Hebrew for God. (A shortening of Elohim). But EL is used for the Greek Gods. Ely means my God in Hebrew.
Perhaps he still loves Sophie and they will walk off into the sunset to teach Archeology together.
Lyros must have an accomplice but is it Ely or Agnes?
First, thanks Jude for the meaning of EL - and ELY. - Perhaps the sex scene in the grotto between Sophie and Ely was a reenactment of the scenes depicted on the ancient walls with Ely as the God and Sophie as What? - the sacrifice?
I agree in that I believe Simon has been murdered - but by whom and why?
Love the image of Sophie and Elgin walking off into the sunset to teach archeology together - brilliant but will that happen?
As for Lyros' accomplice - I see it as being Ely though Agnes is certainly something of a puzzle. And what role does George play other than being on loan from Oxford to handle the multi spectrum imaging job?
There are plenty of questions - few answers as yet!
ALF: Elgin's not the only muscular man with a flashy sports car - Lyros has one too - and sophie seems to be impressed by them both - is it the man or is it the car - does Sophie simply have a penchant for expensive, fast cars and the men who drive them?
Thanks for posting the painting - isn't it great - perfect imagery.
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Gumtree,
I agree in that I believe Simon has been murdered - but by whom and why?
Simon was onto Agnes, he tried to warn Sophie with the sound of SSSSS, when Sophie heard him make that sound when his lung collapsed. Remember, Agnes glowed like she had been jogging when Sophie came back to the hospital. And Simon kept looking from Agnes to Sophie when he couldn't talk and Sophie thought he was trying to ask if Agnes was okay. He was trying to send Sophie eye signals.
Andrea, & Gumtree, Elgin's not the only muscular man with a flashy sports car - Lyros has one too - and sophie seems to be impressed by them both - is it the man or is it the car - does Sophie simply have a penchant for expensive, fast cars and the men who drive them?
Sophie just likes attention from men, I don't think a sports car had anything to do with it.
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Jude- the explanation of the EL makes me pause. I really must think about this a bit. Thank you so much for those thoughts.
Off to H2O walk but will return.
hmmm- EL (Hebrew for God) I will always remember that fact.
ELY (my God)
So many God/Goddesses references I am trying to wrap my thoughts around.
I love the "deduction" of WHO dun it you have given.
Bellam- I mentioned that Sophie and Ely were "not man and wife" to Ginny already, but well- what can I say?
She IS old fashioned! ::)
Gum- yes she does seemm to have a penchant for the "flashy" dude, doesn't she? I forgot about Lyros and his $$$$$$.
I totally agree Agnes and Ely together with the link to Dale Henry makes perfect sense to me.
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We really do have to bear in mind, don't we, that one of the primary
techniques in writing a good mystery, is to variously point the finger
of suspicion at just about everyone and try to mislead the reader/sleuth.
I'm finding it very hard to separate perceptions from facts. More than
once I've accepted as fact what was presented to me, only to discover
that it wasn't so. Ms. Goodman has been very clever at telling us what
happened, while allowing us to make assumptions about why.
I agree with GUM; Sopie's perception of Elgin is skewed by their history.
She is not a reliable 'reporter' where he is concerned.
We all seem to agree that Maria's family emergency was a sham. But why
would she make up such a story in order to go report to the Church. She
is there as a Church representative, and reporting to them would be
natural and appropriate. No,...she must have been doing something else.
DEEMS, I don't think that Sophie was 'leading us down the garden path'. She did not originally specify the timing of her affair in her 'thoughts',but
there was no reason she should. We just 'assumed',..and that was the author's
clever doing.
JoanR
And how could she "fall into his arms" after his 5 years of desertion and silence? No way!
Remember, Joan, Sophie blamed herself for Ely's going away. She was sure it was
because he learned of her affair. As the 'guilty' party, she would have welcomed
his 'forgiveness'. Sophie is all too inclined to doubt and question herself, IMO,
except where her professional knowledge is involved.
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Ok, so Elgin and Ely both SAY they are working with the FBI. Are they really? Elgin says he is working with the FBI, but I don't remember him actually saying who the FBI cooperator in the safe house is. Sophie asked Ely assuming it had to be him, but did she ask Elgin if Ely were the informant? Anyone remember if he actually pointed out Ely as his informant? Oh, and Lyros? Didn't Ely put a wedge in between Sophie and Lyros by allowing her to think that Lyros is the head of the cult?
What about Maria who makes mysterious trips to Naples. I don't think she is who she says she is. Good gal or bad gal? And George who is still siding quietly on the sidelines?
I think this is going to be a case of the bad guys pretending to be something they are not to enlist Sophie's cooperation. I still don't trust anyone at this point. I suspect we will be guessing right up to the end.
Excepting maybe Simon, we still don't have a clear picture of who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. This is such a good "who done it"; it's going to keep us guessing right up to the end.
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Deems
pedln, I agree. I'm reading the book on Kindle, and pages are difficult for me to find (disadvantage to Kindle--it's harder to flip around and find things). Can you find the section early on that led you and me to think that Sophie's affair with Elgin did not coincide with her time with Ely? You thought the affair came after Ely left for NM and I thought she had the affair before her living with Ely. Obviously up front somewhere, our narrator (Sophie) is withholding, obfuscating, being dishonest (with herself, with us).
It's on the agenda, Deems, but right now I'm one of at least three who will be in New York, somewhere, tomorrow. But JoanR and I are getting together next week; we'll sort it out -- at the Strand, where I bought the copy CG autographed. (Wish I had a Kindle instead of having to decide which books to take.)
In the meantime, Elgin is still my main man for good guy. I still lack two chapters for this week, so am not ready to blame Agnes for anything. Will be without Internet until next week.
Andy, great picture of Sophie and Ely. You put that right.
Gumtree, thanks for the math lesson. Gollee, you're smart. Palindromic, of course, from palindrome. :-*
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Andrea,
I mentioned that Sophie and Ely were "not man and wife" to Ginny already, but well- what can I say? She IS old fashioned!
If I didn't take notes, I'd forget everything. It's and age thing. The nice thing is we all share the same symptoms and have each other to help us out. ::) Can you imagine Carol remembering all this? Phewwwwww
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I tell you what, your posts yesterday were out of this world, I want to go back to a few, all were fabulous, was reading here in the face of incredible storms, and from the weather channel more on the way. When the wind comes sideways and the hail batters the side of the house, threatening to break the windows, I really thought yesterday we were gone. Distant constant rumbling which did turn out to be tornadoes but not for us, poor people. I don't know how people stand it living in places like Oklahoma where this is normal.
More of them coming tonight, huge front approaching, according to the Weather Channel, I'm amazed the dish is still up there. If you don't see me, hopefully I'll get on soon.
Jude: thank you for the EL name things, good one. You say I think Simon was murdered. We are three quarters thru the book and no murder?
We have murder(s)! We have Barry and Odette and Simon.
Or we think Simon.
____________
I know nothing of medicine. How might Simon have been killed that they would attribute it to diabetes? Who reported it as having been from diabetes? I realize this is an Italian hospital. Still.
-----------Sandy and JoanR, would you believe I read right over that? I love that!!! Every book needs a little Latin in it, good for you! :)
------------Bella, she's young, tho and she's not thinking. She's not thinking at all, but we are. Woman has no radar at all.
-----Babi, I loved this:
We really do have to bear in mind, don't we, that one of the primary techniques in writing a good mystery, is to variously point the finger of suspicion at just about everyone and try to mislead the reader/sleuth.
I'm finding it very hard to separate perceptions from facts. More than
once I've accepted as fact what was presented to me, only to discover
that it wasn't so. Ms. Goodman has been very clever at telling us what
happened, while allowing us to make assumptions about why.
I like this. Hard to separate perceptions from facts. And the reason IS the writing, and Sophie's own perceptions. Agatha Christie did the same thing and was criticized for her endings not having been mentioned before the end and red herrings. (Wonder where that expression came from?) It will be interesting to see what happens in this one.
But why would she make up such a story in order to go report to the Church. She is there as a Church representative, and reporting to them would be natural and appropriate. No,...she must have been doing something else.
I'm going to put that one in the heading, good one.
-----Andrea fabulous painting, golly moses, welll done!
-----Frybabe: good one: BUT I sure would like to know how Ely knew (assuming it wasn't ANOTHER coincidence) that Sophie was on the rock at the grotto
Is there a SPY there who could have radioed to him on that luxury yacht (bigger than Lyros's Parthenope, did you notice)?
What I could not figure out is WHY she felt the need to go there in the first place right that moment. What set that off, I wonder? Why THERE?
??
-----Gum, thank you for the Fibonacci sequence and Pat H for the additional fascinating stuff on it, who knew? It's amazing to read English and really want to understand and not have a clue.
On weight loss, yesterday they did a profile of Heidi Klum who managed to lose 40 post partum pounds in 2 months. How one wonders did she do it and appear on stage as a slim nymph?
---Deems, exactly: You thought the affair came after Ely left for NM and I thought she had the affair before her living with Ely. Obviously up front somewhere, our narrator (Sophie) is withholding, obfuscating, being dishonest (with herself, with us).
I agree. I have been trying to figure out how this book manages to weave this spell. Just enough side issues that anybody can relate to, interesting side issues, emotions, key words that jump start the reader's heart, to distract even the most careful reader. We actually BECOME her, some of us, (some of you like Sandy were not snookered) and we also brush off, especially if we read fast, the warning signs. We have a narrator who seems to care (feeling guilty about everything) and who has abandonment and who could not feel sorry for her, we're in her mind: first person.
I really think WE the reader are being placed in a third plot as strange as that sounds.
In a way it's like a spell, this is quite intriguing, at least as intriguing as the mystery in the scrolls. I am so glad we are reading this together, because if the best can't crack it, it's not crackable!
So how was Simon killed? What is Maria doing, really? And for whom? Who is the Tetratkys operative? Who is the FBI operative? Who put the poppy? Why?
Why does Lyros need Sophie? WHY?
more........(I MUST have one of those games!)
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Gumtree,
On weight loss, yesterday they did a profile of Heidi Klum who managed to lose 40 post partum pounds in 2 months. How one wonders did she do it and appear on stage as a slim nymph?
I HATE HER!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D If we had her money, trainer, nanny etc. etc. we could do it too. lolol
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Elgin is the FBI operative. Remember when Elgin showed Sophie what he said was an FBI report on the Tetraktys cult. Sophie kept the last page and passed it to Ely who discovered the FBI imprint together with Elgin's FAX No. Sophie looks hard at it to decide whether it is false or not -If it weren't genuine why would Elgin take the trouble to fake the FBI imprint?
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What is Maria doing, really?
Maria has been the one character that has baffled me. All I can see is she is there to represent the Catholic church to protect them from any possible controversies in case those scrolls have theories on creation and Christ. She really up to this point had me mistaking her for a nun. Her behavior reminds me of a nun, someone so proper and detailed, and persnickety. Carol may surprise me in the next pages, but Maria hasn't held my interest. I wonder who the Aunt is she felt it necessary to put lipstick and heels on for to look proper.
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Oh yeah, I'm going for Simon being murdered. He had diabetes? Who knows if he did or not?
His blood sugar levels would have been checked when they admitted him, as it's a part of a metabolic profile that is routinely done.
IF he was diabetic someone could easily have slipped into his room and opened up his IV (most probably a glucose solution), OR shot him some Insulin-- there are many variables, but I just don't buy the diabetic thing. I think, personally that Ag (hmm- AG- is a symbol for gold) 'nass is the villian.
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Ok: moment of truth. YOU tell US what's going on here? How do YOU make sense of what we see? You'll have to stick your neck out a bit? You may be wrong but what the heck, if you were reading this by yourself you'd be making conclusions?
If I could figure out why Lyros needs Sophie I do think it would all fall into place.
I can't figure out what Ely is even doing there. He's working with the FBI? Er...they have put him on a luxury yacht? He's a...he's not the protected witness is he? What IS he? The Tetratkys expert?
Why can't he just send English messages? He's afraid somebody would see them. He sure is dumb about people knowing he's there, tho, see below. So he sends cards somehow. Boy I bet that's something to see, took quite a risk. Unless somebody else in the pay of the FBI (the Twins?) delivers them or a waiter in the restaurant.
He's floating about..what's the name of his boat...he's floating offshore all the time, surely that sets off the radar of the bad guys whoever they are on this island. He'd be hard to miss. Maria at least saw him, I'm sure of that with Sophie. I mean when you're sitting looking out at the coast line in that area, every offshore boat, even down to the smallest fishing boat, sticks out like a sore thumb, much less a luxury yacht, and if you have a pair of binoculars, you'd know in a heartbeat who it was.
Tell you something else, too, in that area there are a LOT of boats on the water and a boat full of teenagers would have approached it before this.
I think we must conclude that Sophie is about the only one who did not know he was there. Perhaps Maria was watching him swim ashore.
A former Tetratkys would know who he was? Or not? How many of them can there be?
But we're still building toward the climax. We've got plenty of conflicts, mental and physical but we're building towards Phinea's big night and the parallel climax in our plot.
Was it Joan R who looked up one of the mystery cults and had nightmares, was horrified by what she read? You got THAT in spades. I don't recommend reading about any of them, but there are many kinds, so this one appears a combo of several: made up.
Normally it's a sweet story: Demeter, the goddess of grain, called Ceres by the Romans, from which we get cereal (not wearing a corn halo, that was so cute) in grief because she lost her daughter Persephone to Pluto, god of the Underworld, in her grief did not plant or allow things to grow, and so winter occurred. The birth of the seasons, until Persephone could return for only 6 months, having eaten 6 pomegranate seeds. It's a charming story and very old.
Here we've got scorched earth and Sirens, that's a take off on the myth, one of many. So we're going to have take offs.
"Phineas" is expecting what, do you think? What do you realistically think he expects?
How will Sophie, sharing the same room, share that? Something is still wrong here, but what IS it? That's the $64,000 question.
Lake Avernus, one of the entrances to Hell, used to be thought so powerful that birds died when they tried to fly over it (they fly fine today over Lake Averno, very pretty).
What sense are you making out of all the threads? How could you kill somebody and have it look like diabetes? Who told the hospital he was a diabetic?
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oops sorry Ginny, we're posting at the same time.
What sense are you making out of all the threads? How could you kill somebody and have it look like diabetes? Who told the hospital he was a diabetic?
Remember it wasn't the hospital that said he had diabetes it was Lyros (wasn't it) when Sophie went in to visit Agnes at the hospital.
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also Ginny- the name of his boat is Persephone- the embodiment of earth's fertility. Persephone was the Queen of the underworld, the innocent maiden.
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I finished this book over the weekend. I was so glad to get through it!!
Oh well, I know that you all are having fun with it. I did not and that is all that I am going to say. I don't want to be a spoiler . I will just keep my big mouth shut about the whole thing.
Just wanted Alf and everyone to know that I did not give up on it but kept on reading until the end.
Joan Grimes
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Joan Grimes: Good for you ! 8)
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Good for you Joan- you finished it, at least. We all have different tastes and that is why we love to share in our discussions. I've been in discussions, Joan, that people have literally drooled over, going on and on about how great the book was and I just shrug my shoulders and say, "well I must have missed that."
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In this section Carol mentions the Phlegraean Fields. The Campi Flegrei, which means "burning fields," is nearby to Pozzuoli going up the coast from Naples to Cumae. Pozzuoli is the birthplace of Sophia Loren and quite ancient.
This entire area is spooky. Pozzuoli is prone to Bradyism in which the land will fall or rise by several feet, it's quite something but I thought for atmosphere you'd like to see the Phlegraean Fields and you'll see why they are called that: they are smoking.
Solfatara is a volcano, which smokes and smells of sulfur: in some of these photos you can see the yellow sulfur. When you leave it you reek of sulfur.
This was taken in March, and it's huge, you can't get it in a frame. You can see the jackets on the people looking, it was cold everywhere elsse but not here. Here it's hot. Some thought of this as another entrance into Hell, sure looks like it, smokes, smells like sulfur, ground is burning hot and in the last photo here the ground is so hot it's bubbling up, the actual ground is bubbling. THIS is one of the areas shot in the National Geographic DVD on Volcanoes.
This, believe it or not, in 2008 is a park, a holiday park with restaurants and camping facilities. It's like a moonscape. Like all mysterious places it's got its share of myths on what is below: the abode of Hephaestus? or Vulcan, blacksmith to the gods? Another entrance to Hades?
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The above is not ripples on the water or rain on the water, it's the earth itself bubbling. A land of mystery, and it's not hard to see why. By the way did you know that the Park Rangers at Old Yeller say it's only a matter of time before it blows sky high?
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Oh it reminds me of Yellowstone where the earth bubbles with the minerals. They're hot and smoky but don't really smell of sulphur. If I remember correctly.
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Ginny--You wondered about "red herring." A question my students routinely ask and I therefore have an answer! Years ago I looked it up (for the students). It was a common practice to draw dogs off the trail by pulling a dried herring (strong odor) over the trail of whatever it was they were tracking to distract them; the dogs would all run off, following the smell of the herring and lose the original trail.
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Ginny, If I could figure out why Lyros needs Sophie I do think it would all fall into place.
Maybe its a red herring. I have already posted my theories and suspicions and am seeing them hold true so far. I am also expecting a few red herrings too.
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Joan Grimes,
Just wanted Alf and everyone to know that I did not give up on it but kept on reading until the end.
Yes, I have been enjoying this discussion very much, although I will share with you I wanted to throw this book across the room a few times and give up on it. I would come in here and see a question or post that would lure me back in. I have a few books left unread, because I just could not bring myself to finish them. I usually don't like not finishing a book but this one I have to see it to the end to see if all my theories and suspicions hold up.
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Bella, well the only thing is, if it's a red herring the entire plot is shot? But it may be, it will be hard to wait till Sunday to read it.
:)
On Monday if you'll all put your final questions up (you'll have read to the end) Carol can answer them then.
Deems, isn't that fascinating! I did not know that herrings CAME in red, just look what you can learn in our book discussions, I won't forget that one, thank you!
Andrea, I had missed that, so Ely's boat is Persephone and Lyros's boat is Parthenope.
So Ely and the FBI have a plan. Sophie does not tell us what it is but they go over it three times. It's important that she is not to "take any chances. If they find anything in the tunnels today, try to be the one who takes it back to be scanned. Don't do anything to make him suspicious."
Why should Sophie be the one to take it back to be scanned?
Don't do anything to make him SUSPICIOUS? Like hanging around the area in a luxury sail boat? hahaaa
"You see, Lyros needs to see Phineas's journal as it's scanned to find out where the missing scrolls are. Now he knows they're buried in the Siren's Grotto or one of the underground passages leading from the grotto fo the Chamber of the God."
The two Grottoes might be a bit coincidental here, surely when he decided to build his copy of the Villa Della Notte he didn't select a place with a grotto and deliberately build the bedroom over it, or did he?
Didn't you love Carol's explanation of the Nyx Statue? I did!
I spent half the book wondering what Shiner Bock was! hahahaa Have any of you ever tasted it? I wish you'd look at this: their home page: http://www.shiner.com/
It's been a long time since somebody told me I was not old enough to do something and I did put my birthday in correctly? CUTE!!
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I'll be doggoned. Look where it IS? Wouldn't it be fun if we ended up going out to San Antonio for our next Books Gathering to visit this place? And play Tombola Smorfia? hahahaa I don't drink but that should not be a handicap? hahahaa
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I too was getting pretty exasperated with the book. I thought it was getting excessively lengthy and complex. I lost interest in reading about Iusta and Phineas. Perhaps if I had more interest and knowledge about mythology and Roman ruins, I could have hung in longer. I've loved the discussion and the book has peaked my interest in Roman ruins to I've pulled out a 1961 book of mine called "The Dawn of Civilization" edited by Edward Piggott and published by McGraw Hill. I AM learning new information and am grateful for that.
Last week I stayed up late one night and finished the book, so have not been posting any comments. Perhaps when everyone has finished reading Night Villa, we can discuss the ending and the characters. That would be fun.
Ginny, I'll bet you have had enough of the thunder storms and hail back there. Hope your weather settles down soon. Read on, my friends!!!
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Yeah I was just thinking the same thing. Here we are in a holding pattern, I'm about to die to finish the book: what do you think? Or as my 2 1/2 year old grandson said to me yesterday, "what about THAT?"
Let's take a vote! What do you say?
How many vote to go ahead and read to the end and then start that discussion on this coming Friday? The day after tomorrow? We can observe tomorrow as time to read to the end and post any last minute predictions.
Yea or Nay?
Countrymm, the news broadcast just quoted somebody from the National Weather service saying that (I take back my remarks on living in Oklahoma!) this area of the country is one of the worst (!!) for these straight line winds or whatever he said, not a tornado but winds of 100 mph last night, thank goodness all we got was a huge branch that tried to come thru the bedroom window (talk about BP?) hahahaa
But huge trees down the street are uprooted, huge oaks, it's unreal. That's enough of that! :)
I vote to go ahead now and finish the book and start discussing the last chapter this Friday (the day after tomorrow). I am SO ready to see how it ends and to hear YOUR thoughts on it and I know Carol will be interested too.
What's YOUR vote?
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I agree Ginny that it is difficult to be in a holding pattern BUT many of us have not read the entire book yet. If you want to skip ahead I will agree.
My concern is for our readers however. Today is only Wednesday evening & each reader may not get the chance to complete the novel by Friday morning.
What will happen to those folks that lag behind? - there are nearly 100 pages left.
What say you all ? This discussion has been yours from the beginning, dear readers, you have taken this novel and ran with it. We take our lead from your interests.
And personally I have been impressed by all of your comments and your insight.
It's up to you. What say you all???
Read on? Start discussion on Friday, Sunday? It is in your hands and Ginny and I will await your comments.
Andy
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!---Joan R.
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(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week 3: Through Chapter 24:
It's All in the Cards
What a chapter! Revelations, surprises, but even more secrets, what did you make of it?
1 Talk about unreliable narrators, what do you think of Phineas? Is he reliable? Is Ely? Do you believe Ely?
2. Who is the yet unnamed operative still at the site?
3. The cards and their meanings are revealed!! What are two possible flaws in Ely's plan to use them?
4. " I see Agnes, looking not only very much alive but the picture of health. Her cheeks are pink and her eyes glowing as if she'd just finished a morning jog." (page 232). What's going on with Agnes and why?
5. Are you clear on how the two parallel plots intertwine here? We've only got a small section left. What has Phineas's part in the rites got to do with the hunt for the Golden Verses?
6. What do you think Simon was arguling about with Lyros? What do you think he was struggling to say to Sophie?
7. What do you think Maria was doing on the computer? (page 206) Do you buy her emergency family trip?
8. Betrayal as a theme has just raised its head. How is it paralleled exactly in the two plots?
9. How much do you think Maria saw when she came to look for Sophie? Why couldn't Ely have taken her to land somewhere instead of the swim?
10. "....be careful not to hurt Agnes or Agnes's woman professor." (page 279). What need has Lyros of Agnes's woman professor?
11. What do you think is the most important part of this section and why?
12. What does Sophie's dream about Odette mean? What is meant by the wrong pan and the wrong day? (Babi)
13. What's with the diabetic complication that caused Simon, our artist, to die? (Andrea)
14. " But why would she make up such a story in order to go report to the Church. She is there as a Church representative, and reporting to them would be natural and appropriate. No,...she must have been doing something else."-- Babi. What do you think she was actually doing?
15. Is this book plot driven or character driven? (Deems) Why?
16. What IS the plot, to you, and what climax would you expect at the end?
17. "Ely sent those cards to Sophie, and if he had not sent the date signifying the day she told him of her affair which caused him to join the cult I would not be suspecting him wanting to harm her. But I asked myself, why did he include that date? I don't think he has gotten over her being unfaithful." How do you see Ely?
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/sounionb.jpg)
The Temple of Poseidon
Sounion, Greece
Where "Phineas" got the scrolls
Schedule
Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22
Chapters 25-End for June 23 - 30
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
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Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.
New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!
Ginny, well the only thing is, if it's a red herring the entire plot is shot?
I am NOT saying it is a red herring, I only suggested it could be, but if it is why would the plot be shot? Elgin wanted Sophie in the first place. Elgin convinced Sophie to go because he knew what it would mean to her to finally have the answers to Iusta's freedom and be able to finish her book. He also knows Sophie is looking for closure of her own past issues through the answers of Iusta, because she overidentifies with Iusta in her thesis. Lyros comes on the scene as a benefactor requesting her. Many of us including myself suspected Lyros is with the Tetkratys, which means he and Ely could be actually working together. I don't buy the perfect love tryst on the beach. I feel Ely is setting Sophie up, he is a man scorned. Those 3 dates were reminders to Sophie to have her reflect back at the sentimental times in their relationship, but also to remind her of her affair with Elgin so she will feel guilty. She is ripe for the picking....make love to her, set her up and then harm her. As Ursula said in Little Mermaid, "She's in love. It's too Easy." Like I said before, the two expensive boats are funded by Lyros, he is with the cult, Ely may have been the one behind Lyros requesting Sophie so he could get her to Italy and harm her. Ely just like Elgin, knew Sophie would not resist finding out the answers to Iusta. I don't trust Ely, Lyros or Agnes. This could be Lyros, Agnes, and Elgin's mission to get the scrolls for the cult. For Ely and Agnes I feel its personal to harm Sophie.
Ely sent those cards to Sophie, and if he had not sent the date signifying the day she told him of her affair which caused him to join the cult I would not be suspecting him wanting to harm her. But I asked myself, why did he include that date? I don't think he has gotten over her being unfaithful.
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Ginny,
I vote to go ahead now and finish the book and start discussing the last chapter this Friday (the day after tomorrow). I am SO ready to see how it ends and to hear YOUR thoughts on it and I know Carol will be interested too.
What's YOUR vote?
My vote is YES! I would LOVE to finish it and find out how Carol wraps this all up. Will my Richard Gere(Elgin) and Julia Roberts (Sophie) ride off into the sunset like in Runaway Bride and Pretty Woman. Will we have a happily ever after? Will the scrolls defame the Catholic church? Carol and Phineas said something about how this could make people see religions in a different way. I want to know who Maria's aunt is, since it was important she dresses properly for her. I can't wait to see.
I'll check back later to see the outcome of the vote.
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Andrea,
My concern is for our readers however. Today is only Wednesday evening & each reader may not get the chance to complete the novel by Friday morning.
What will happen to those folks that lag behind? - there are nearly 100 pages left.
I think there are only a few of us who have not read ahead. We have lost alot of people posting, I suspect because they have finished the book and are waiting to discuss the ending, as some have already stated.
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We need to hear from those who haven't finished.
For myself, I want to put up a few more half-baked theories, which will take less than 24 hours, and then I'm good with either way. Of course I'm eager to move on and find out what happens, but if waiting until Sunday means that some people will catch up, I'm willing to wait.
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Your votes have been noted. Does anybody else have an opinion before Ginny "weathers" these storms and retuns?
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I confess. I finished the book this morning. I just couldn't wait to find out who the bad guys are.
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I'm happy either way but will have little time to read the full section by Friday -I'll have to burn the midnight oil.
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Bellamarie: I don't buy Sophie and Ely's 'perfect love tryst' either. It was just not right. He's up to something and is definitely a baddie. But why, oh Why does Sophie fall straight back into his arms after his 5 year absence and after the way he neglected her when she lost the baby....
You wrote:
He also knows Sophie is looking for closure of her past issues through the answer of Iusta, because she over identifies with Iusta in her thesis
Sophie is definitely looking for closure - comfort too - she is very wounded.
She over-identified with Iusta in a paper but after Elgin pointed that out to her she re-wrote her paper and then went on to expand the paper into her thesis. She may identify with Iusta on a personal level but her professional side is more discerning - doesn't Elgin say somewhere that she is a skeptic and won't accept anything on face value.
I have the impression that Lyros only put up the money after the shooting. I think the real target had been Elgin perhaps to prevent him having a hand in the discovery of the scrolls. I'm sure that it was Elgin who had the final say on Sophie's appointment (and Agnes' too for that matter).
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Let's finish the book ... perhaps I'll have time this afternoon to burn the "afternoon oil" ;)
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We're about equally divided here and there's really no reason to burn any oil, tomorrow, Friday, is only three days from Monday, let's wait till Monday, as we have portioned our time, we have some theories yet, I do, we want to try. I confess to a gross impatience here but as Andrea says it IS 100 pages and some of us still have a lot we want to say!
I feel as if I'm at the top of a roller coaster, we've climbed up and up and we're perched on the top, and I'm SUCH an impatient character.
I have to congratulate you all, I think this is one of the first times some of us have been able to hold back and not read ahead. Friday is 3 days off Monday, read it if you like or not, but we'll still commend on what's past till Monday. Let's wait till Monday. Good for you!
Please have all questions ready for Carol on Monday, this fits the schedule we told her anyway.
This has really been a super discussion, thanks to you!!I think Andrea should get some credit here, too, SHE is the one who made the divisions in the book, for us to concentrate on, didn't she do a good job!! Just perfect!
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Deems talked earlier about "plot driven" or "character driven" novels, and that she thought this was plot driven. Do you still think so, Deems? What do the rest of you think?
Maybe we can take a minute to talk about the plot. When I said the plot would be shot if there weren't a clear parallel for Sophie being a parallel of Phineas, Bella gave her idea of the plot and I am beginning to realize that perhaps we don't all see the plot the same way and PERHAPS I have, myself, over identified with the PARALLELS to the Phineas story, which MAY be red herrings, themselves.
Boy!
I'm going to sit down Sunday with this buzzard and finish it, I have a feeling I, too, have gotten off the roller coaster into the fire...er....hmmmmm. But in the meantime.....
What DO you see as the main plot?
Do we actually agree on that? We don't seek consensus but I have a feeling I'm way out in left field and I realize I haven't really thought about a main plot at all! Just bumping along, like Sophie, stopping here and there to smell the roses. And get distracted by the roses and the Smorfia games.
What in the main plot YOU see would be the climax expected? I really need to think about this one, but do YOU?
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Bella sees Ely as the bad guy:
Ely sent those cards to Sophie, and if he had not sent the date signifying the day she told him of her affair which caused him to join the cult I would not be suspecting him wanting to harm her. But I asked myself, why did he include that date? I don't think he has gotten over her being unfaithful.
How do YOU see Ely? Putting these two things in the heading, please see heading and the red questions for today. Or talk about anything you please.
Well again, I took Ely at Sophie's good faith. He's certainly suspicious tho.
Bellamarie: I don't buy Sophie and Ely's 'perfect love tryst' either. It was just not right. He's up to something and is definitely a baddie. But why, oh Why does Sophie fall straight back into his arms after his 5 year absence and after the way he neglected her when she lost the baby.
There's been so much talk of Jashemsky (sp) and the ghost roots, i assumed he was filling up the hole caused by the losses she sustained, but again we've got HER word for it, hmmm
I agree with Gum: Sophie is definitely looking for closure - comfort too - she is very wounded.
Gum said: I have the impression that Lyros only put up the money after the shooting. Could be, but there's no way that he could have built that replica after the shooting so it's been there.
What's the plot, dear Reader? If you had to outline it, could you?
What's the expected climax? That would be the end to the rising conflicts and actions YOU see as the plot? What do you expect to see? Whether or not you have read to the very end you can answer that one.
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Good morning, I am about ready to take off for NY State. I am excited to see my girls/and grandkids. I personally am going to reread the last 100 pages and will be ready by Monday.
I am not blowing smoke here but Ginny spends hours on her headings. (I, on the other hand, like to chatter back and forth between thoughts and could care less about questions.)
It takes hours of considerate thought and time to hone in on various ideas that might pique a reader's interest.
BUT ....with that said please do take the time today and tomorrow to consider Ginny's questions up above us (not in the attic).
I like # 5 and #8, I think that they are essential to the plot.
Ginny asks
What's the plot, dear Reader? If you had to outline it, could you?
I can't even outline my packing list for the month much less a complicated plot. ::)
See you when I get there. If I can get the teenagers off the computer I will be "in" tonight to see what else you brilliant sleuths have discussed.
Have fun and keep your eyes out for the villian.
Andy
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Safe travels Andrea and enjoy your family! Teens and computers?? I thought computers are out and blackberries and iphones are in. My teen grand daughter has lost interest in the computer, now that she got her fancy shmancy phone. I helped raise her from birth and am beginning to miss her even when she is here, because that darn phone has taken priority. I knew it was bound to happen, but I thought I had one more year. She is a great girl, so I can't complain.
Andrea, thank you for pointing out the time and work Ginny puts into those questions. She is one of a kind. The two of you work excellently together!!!
Ciao for now..................
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Sounds good to me, GINNY. I've run out of pertinent things to say about this section. I vote for moving on. ALF, we would just start discussing the rest of the book on Friday. It will probably take another week to finish discussing it.
Winds that uproot oaks are definitely unpopular with me. It reminds me of the
saying about cold weather up in north Texas. "The only thing between
Amarillo and the North Pole is a barbwire fence!" If you study a map, that's pretty much true.
Like some others, I have finished the book, but my notes are paged and dated so that I do not get ahead of the discussion. And the book is complicated enough that I have to read my own notes to keep track as we go along. :-[
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We've actually voted to wait till Monday, Babi, that's not that long, let's talk about the PLOT. I have a feeling my idea of the plot is not what IS.
I like your idea of notes paged and dated, that's smart!
Safe trip, Andrea!
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By the end of the current section, I am still suspicious of everyone, especially Ely for reasons already stated. I don't for one second believe he is the FBI informant. I suspect Maria is not who she says she is. Lyros is suspect for his five year disappearance, but most of his current behavior could be construed either way. I distrust Agnes somewhat partly because she seems to be playing people with her poor Agnes, look what she went through act. But again, some people truly have trouble getting over terrible events and are needy personalities. George, who pretty much stays at Lyros' villa, could be quietly sitting back and pulling the strings. That would mean more than one cult member on the team. Elgin, while I am hoping he is a good guy, acts suspiciously at times also. Just like Lyros' behavior, it could go either way. So, so far, I peg Ely as a bad guy but haven't decided on the others.
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By the end of the current section, I am still suspicious of everyone, especially Ely for reasons already stated. I don't for one second believe he is the FBI informant.
Wow! And we only have his word for Lyros too! I could be wrong again on Lyros!
It's like a Masked Ball in Venice!
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ginny,
It's like a Masked Ball in Venice!
How fun Carol must have had writing this book. Although I must say some of these characters seem to change masks.
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Ginny--herrings are only red after they have been smoked (or maybe dried, I've forgotten). And even then, they're more brown than red.
I'm going to go ahead and finish the novel because I'm pretty sure who will "win" Sophie (I'm not sure she's such a catch) and who the bad guys are. Like several of you, I never would have finished the book had it not been for the discussion. Too much going on, too little character development. But the discussion has been worth it. Good work, Ginny and Andy.
Yes, the book is definitely plot driven. Two plots but I don't see them as parallel. Also two first person narrators. I also have lost interest in the Phineas plot. He does go on and on.
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Deems,
I'm going to go ahead and finish the novel because I'm pretty sure who will "win" Sophie (I'm not sure she's such a catch)
I'm pretty convinced Sophie is not such a catch too. She is too wishy washy for me. Regardless of all her past issues, I was having a difficult time with her from the first pages. I did not see this so much as a love story and hope Carol does NOT make it into one in the last pages. I personally didn't connect to anyone but Elgin having any true love feelings. He showed care and concern for Sophie, he respected her, and I can see where he seems to have feelings lingering for her. The rest seem to be very "self" driven.
I don't have time to apply to the ending of the book today, so I will do it tomorrow since I only have one day care child coming at 1:30 and will nap til pick up time.
Ciao for now..................
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I've been tracking down the Pythagorean 'Golden Verses' which our characters are hoping to find in a papyrus scroll - there are about a zillion sites which quote verses said to have originated with Pythagoras or his school.
This extract is one example:
Never let slumber approach thy wearied eyelids,ere thrice you review what this day you did:Wherein have I sinned? What did I?
What duty is neglected? All, from the firstto the last, review, and if you have erred grieve in your spirit, rejoicing for all that was good.
With zeal and with industry, this, then, repeat, and learn to repeat it with joy. Thus wilt thou tread on the paths of heavenly virtue. Surely, I swear it by him who into our souls has transmitted the Sacred Quaternary [the Tetraktys], the spring of eternal nature.
you will find more at - http://www.astronomy.pomona.edu/archeo/greece/pythagoras/golden.htm
This translation puts it more succinctly:
Never sleep before going over the acts of the day in the mind
http://www/secretoflife.com/goldverses.html
and again:
...and never let your eyes
The sweet refreshings of soft slumber taste,
Till you have thrice severe reflections past,
on the actions of the day from first to last.
Wherein have I transgressed? What done have I?
What duty unperformed have I passed by?
And if your actions ill on search you find,
Let grief; if good, let joy possess your mind.
This doe, this think, to this your heart incline,
This way will lead you to the life Divine.
http://www.fourfoldpath.org/index.htm
Plenty of other stuff on those sites for the Tetraktys cult members to ponder on.
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Gumtree, thanks for your post on the 4 fold path. Interesting. Through yoga, I am aware of the 8 fold path and happen to agree with it. Encourages us to end suffering by detaching from possessions, etc. (So, everyone, go throw away your clutter. I'm still trying to DO that.)
http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpath.html
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Gumtree, as you will see in the eightfold path, there is within it a fourfold path. Attachment is a real problem for humans! Why do we have such trouble letting go? Maybe if Sophie had let go of Ely sooner..............
For the 4 statements, you may wish to read: http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/fourtruths.html
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Now I am not confused but annoyed. Sophie is a blinking idiot.. Eli has villain written all over him. Obviously the woman never got over the stupid man.. To be in love with someone in a cult is to lose big time. She also believed him with no question.s Here I thought she was a strong woman..
Alf.. Chatauqua because they have a lovely campground on a lake and I always wanted to see te town. We are too early for the classes and night stuff, but at least we can see the site. We may come back next year for classes.
So I am officially disgusted with the women..Hmmph.. Sophia is truly stupid.
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pedln wrote:
"Sophie is the one who has provoked me. Many of you have characterized her as either dumb or naïve, and I’ll go along with that. But she’s also been dishonest. She really led us down the garden path – into thinking that she didn’t get involved sexually, romantically, with Elgin until Ely had gone to New Mexico. And now we find out that’s WHY he went to New Mexico."
pedln, I agree. I'm reading the book on Kindle, and pages are difficult for me to find (disadvantage to Kindle--it's harder to flip around and find things). Can you find the section early on that led you and me to think that Sophie's affair with Elgin did not coincide with her time with Ely? You thought the affair came after Ely left for NM and I thought she had the affair before her living with Ely. Obviously up front somewhere, our narrator (Sophie) is withholding, obfuscating, being dishonest (with herself, with us).
Yes, Ginny, she is an unreliable narrator, at least in all the parts of the story that deal with her personal life and her observations about others.
I like the technique that Carol is using to reveal information about Sophie's past...a little at a time. It's a good way to keep suspense and provide clues (or misdirections/red herrings) in different contexts. This is a mystery story and it can't be obvious who did what.
I can't find information in the book that shows that Sophie is deliberately misleading us about when she and Elgin had an affair. It may be in the book, but I don't find her saying that she started her relationship with Elgin after Ely left.
At the end of Chapter 23 (p 268) she says that December 22 was the day that Ely left. Ely saw Elgin's fax number at the top of the page of FBI information about the Tetraktys that Elgin had gotten from a friend in the FBI although Sophie didn't want to tell Ely where she got the information and she had lied and said it was from a student.
Sophie had broken it off with Elgin a month before but Ely was hurt and upset and left.
During the previous couple of years, Ely had not left Sophie for another woman but he had left her out of his life with his new community--the Tetraktys cult, which had taken over every aspect of his life.
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Marcie,
I can't find information in the book that shows that Sophie is deliberately misleading us about when she and Elgin had an affair. It may be in the book, but I don't find her saying that she started her relationship with Elgin after Ely left.
There was no place in the book that led us to believe Sophie turned to Elgin AFTER Ely joined the cult.
WE ALL ASSUMED IT..............shame on us. lololol
Marcie, Sophie had broken it off with Elgin a month before but Ely was hurt and upset and left.
I do understand Ely being upset and hurt even though she says she had broken off the affair a month ago. Learning someone has been unfaithful is devastating regardless when you find out about it.
Like I said before....I did not like Sophie or the narrator for that matter from the very beginning. For Sophie to just fall into Ely's legs, so soon after she had been at dinner making goo goo eyes at Lyros and contemplated sharing the hotel room with him was the last straw for me. I don't care what feelings she has left over for Ely, this woman is ridiculous! Grrrr I don't even want to get started on how frustrated I have been with her actions and inactions through out this book.
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Off Topic and just for fun. Are we allowed to have NON book fun? Smile..
http://www.strollingoftheheifers.com/v2/
Take a look at these wonderful photos of heifers (young female cows who have not had a calf of their own).
'Strolling of the Heifers' is a fund raising project which is part of the Farm Aid project. It provides farm relief and shows appreciation for Vermont's farmers. The events of the day are fun to read. Also, check out their own Flickr page if you want to see more cute heifers.
Click ahead to page 11 on that site to see the cute heifers and kids who show them.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/strollingoftheheifers/
This event takes place annually in BRATTLEBORO, VT. One of these years I'm going to attend. Lucky that a have a close friend who lives in Brattleboro, eh?
Slap me hand if I've been bad.
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Countrymm - Thanks! Brings back memories for sure. We had the prettiest heifers of all time - Jerseys.
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countrymm--Far from admonishing you, I thank you for the link to the heifers' stroll. I wish I had known about it earlier because----and this is a true story---my daughter and I both have Jack Russell terriers. Her terrier, Ben (Benjamin Douglas) loves cows. I am not making this up. My Kemper Elizabeth watches everything intently out the window, but she shows no special interest in cows.
My daughter and I actually take the dogs out on a country road near here where there's a field with black cows (I think Angus, but not sure). Ben knows when the field is coming up--no prompting, he has learned the landmarks. He goes to the correct side of the Jeep and starts whimpering before we can see the field. When we get to the cows he really lets go, barking and whining and pawing at the window. After we pass the cows, he looks so happy, eyes shining and grinning the way only a Jack can.
Kemper generally ignores him, but sometimes he gets so overwrought that she thinks she has to put him in his place (she's top dog and one year older).
Both dogs enjoy seeing horses but that is to be expected because Jacks are often raised by people who have horses.
But Ben would LOVE to see those heifers!
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Here's what Goodwin says in the early chapters that might date Sophie's affair:
p. 12, start of chapter 2--"It's been five years since I saw Ely...."
p. 47, 3/4 through chapter 4--I don't generally like to admit even to myself that I had an affair with Elgin Lawrence my second year of graduate school, and when I do think about it I tend to lump it together with that blurry period after I lost the baby and just before Ely left. Blurry because I was crying...and drinking a lot. I remember that Elgin's attentions were flattering and that his cynical attitude toward New Age fads, health food, and yoga seemed bracing. He was the perfect antidote to Ely, I thought."
p. 52, end of chapter 4--"...he's using the same words he used five years ago to seduce me."
So you know it's about when Ely left, but the second quote is a carefully crafted bit of not-quite-specific.
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countrymm--Far from admonishing you, I thank you for the link to the heifers' stroll. I wish I had known about it earlier because----and this is a true story---my daughter and I both have Jack Russell terriers. Her terrier, Ben (Benjamin Douglas) loves cows. I am not making this up. My Kemper Elizabeth watches everything intently out the window, but she shows no special interest in cows.
My daughter and I actually take the dogs out on a country road near here where there's a field with black cows (I think Angus, but not sure). Ben knows when the field is coming up--no prompting, he has learned the landmarks. He goes to the correct side of the Jeep and starts whimpering before we can see the field. When we get to the cows he really lets go, barking and whining and pawing at the window. After we pass the cows, he looks so happy, eyes shining and grinning the way only a Jack can.
Kemper generally ignores him, but sometimes he gets so overwrought that she thinks she has to put him in his place (she's top dog and one year older).
Both dogs enjoy seeing horses but that is to be expected because Jacks are often raised by people who have horses.
But Ben would LOVE to see those heifers!
[/quote DEEMS. I loved your answer. The funny thing is that I read your line "Jacks are often raised by people who have horses" in a strange way. I honestly thought I saw it as "Jacks often raise people who have horses". I guess I live too close to dogs and know how often they train us! I have 4 rescued cocker spaniels and do rescue work myself. Can you guess that that is how I ended up with 4?? They are great and I love them so much but I often feel like the pied piper all day as they follow me around. Guess they are just asking me to taking them for a long walk in our avocado grove here in S. CA. Where do you and your daughter live?
I grew up in Massachusetts and have always liked cows. Those eyes are incredible. Funny that your daughter's Ben is crazy about cows but your Kemper Elizabeth could care less. My dogs are crazy about avocados.....and would love to chase coyotes but of course we don't let them. Coyotes are too wiley..................nuff said? Off to walk 4 cockers!
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Countrymm - Thanks! Brings back memories for sure. We had the prettiest heifers of all time - Jerseys.
JOAN, are you from the the British Isles? Jerseys are beautiful. On a different subject, have you read the Guernsey book (Potato Peel Society)?? Wonderful!
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Countrymm, you found us too late. We had a wonderfully spirited discussion of the Guernsey book here, and Annie Barrows responded to our emails, answering some questions and making some comments. It amazes me how generous authors can be with their time for groups like us (Carol, that means you, too, thank you).
It's in the archives, but it's daunting to read that way.
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I had some serious dental work yesterday and have been non functional for one and a half days. Then I felt better with the help of some heavy duty pain killers. I read the last two pages of your posts and was hit by the following questions:
1) What are the rules of the Tetraktys Cult (T.C.From here on) regarding sex?
2)We learned that silence is required for five years-is abstinence also practiced?
3)What happens to peoples property and money while they are in the cult?
4) Are you allowed to leave? If so do you take out what you put in?
5)What is the overall purpose of the T.C.? i.e. Could be anything from taking over the world to making the leaders rich to
have a special afterlife when they die or commit suicide.
6) Every cult and religion has rules about the following-: Birth, Death, Sex, Marriage and Children. We don't have a clear picture of the T.C. attitude to most of these things.
On another matter-Do Phineas and Iustia have their counterpart in our little group?
When I look at the six character who we have as suspects they are not red herrings but slippery fish that slide back into the water just when we think we caught them. I thought we were better fishermen than we are. I love a mystery but I think it's time to read to the end.
Oh well-I learned a lot of Ancient History and Archeological facts in this discussion. Thanks to all those that put it all on the site for us to enjoy.
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Ginny asks about the plot...I find that hard to answer. There is so much going on in this story. Each character seems to have his or her own agenda. Each seems to have a different reason for being on this project. I find it hard to see a plot. Maybe I am looking for too hard an answer.
And thank you Ginny and Andrea for all you put into this.
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I have to agree with Sandyrose about the plot. I don't think the book has a real plot nor does it have any character development. I really had a hard time reading it but I did finish it. At first I blamed it on myself. I said I was not a classical scholar but you know that two years ago the museum of art where I am a docent had a marvelous Pompeii exhibition. I was throughly trained on it. I went to Pompeii, Herculeanium and Capri and looked all of the things there and that was not my first time to visit that area. I really studied all of that then. So am not untrained on that part of it all.
If I had been reading this book by myself I would never have finished it. Thanks Alf and Ginny for offering me a challenging discussion that made me finish this book. I really do not like to not finish a book that I start.
Joan Grimes
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PatH, thanks so much for finding those quotes. I knew I had the time period right.
".. that blurry period after I lost the baby and just before Ely left. Blurry because I was crying...and drinking a lot."
Come on guys, cut the gal some slack. She has been working through
some major trauma, here.
Each character seems to have his or her own agenda. Each seems to have a different reason for being on this project
SANDYROSE, (and JoanG) perhaps this is the plot. You have a cast of characters, each with their own motivations and their own agenda, and you follow them through the developing events. Confusing? Of course! It is a
mystery, after all.
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Ginny,
What's the plot, dear Reader?
I personally felt, because it began with Sophie, it revolved around her and she had a reason for going on the dig to finish her book, that became the plot for me. Yes, there was alot going on with the characters, especially when you are having to sort through all the issues of their pasts, the mythological stuff, the religions/cults, the rebuilding of VDN, the relationships and then all the historical stuff, but, I kept trying to stay focused mostly on just the main characters who for me was: Sophie, Agnes, Ely, Elgin, Lyros and Maria. Yes, Phineas held my interest only because he is suppose to have the scrolls, and I like Johnny Dep. lol I think having my pen and pad next to me helped me stay focused on who I saw as the main characters, villians, hero,heroine, not so important ones, and red herrings, if any.
I did want to delve further and learn more about Pythagoras, Poseidon, Ovid's Metamorphoses and even Phineas and Iusta, since this was all new for me, and wanted to find clues as to what it had to do with the story, since Carol mentioned those were books she used when writing NV. I'm a babe in the woods when it comes to all the mythological stuff. I have never had the blessing to travel outside of the country, other than Canada, and since my grandparents were born in Sicily and immigrated to the United States, I have always wanted to go to Italy. So reading this book gave me some insight to areas I would never have gained had I not read this book. If I am ever blessed to go to Italy and see these areas they will have a little familiar feeling to me from what I have learned in this book and what all of you who have traveled were so willing to share with us.
For me, since Sophie getting her information to finish her book on Iusta was the plot, I kept my focus there. Oh believe me there were parts and posts that I found luring me in other directions. I didn't see a love story happening so I didn't focus on any particular couple. I liked Elgin from the start and thought he had lingering feelings for Sophie, but because I didn't see Sophie so much as a catch, I really didn't allow myself to care. I expected Sophie to finally get a chance to see Ely once more for closure. I sure didn't expect her to wrap herself up in his legs instantly the way she did. So that just frustrated me and confirmed my feelings about her being weak, wishy washy, and needed male attention. I was turned off with the entire initiations, frescoes, sexual activities, etc. I was interested in what part the scrolls would play if any, with the Catholic church, since I am Catholic. The Pythagorean theory, Sibyls and foretune telling was all smoke and mirrors to me, because I have never had any belief or interest in that sort of stuff trying to claim knowledge of the creation and Christ. I am secure in my own religion and belief and found all of this as just being a part of the story, but not the plot per se.
As far as trying to outline the plot....For me it was Sophie overidentifies with Iusta in her thesis, she wants information to finish her book, the shooting takes place, Elgin convinces Sophie to go to Italy, cult members are being revealed, Phineas ties the scrolls into the story, Sophie sees Ely, Iusta is NOT so innocent, Agnes murders Simon and the rest I won't go into. It does seem there were two stories being told, but the mythological one I din't find all that interesting.
I got a chance to finish the book and won't comment until everyone is ready. I will wait for Ginny and Andrea to open up that discussion part.
Ciao for now...................
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Babi,
Come on guys, cut the gal some slack. She has been working through some major trauma, here.
Sorry, I can't let that be her excuse to justify her actions and inaction. As the saying goes, "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger." I just couldn't identify with Sophie, I have known women like her and want to help them or scream at them. lololol
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Gosh so many good thoughts here today, it's going to take a while to respond, but I love reading all the new stuff and your pointing out things I missed.
Bella's last post raises a question, another question to go with JudeS's excellent ones above, an idle question in my mind. Throughout the discussion we've said from time to time, that we can or can't identify with the protagonist here.
Do you think it's necessary TO identify with the protagonist of every book you read?
DO you tend TO identify? I almost never do. Gosh when I think back over what I have read, I'm trying to remember a book when I DID identify with the protagonist? I cannot think of the last time I did. Marjorie Morningstar?
The former Poet Laureate of SC, now deceased, did a workshop on writing I took once and she said in writing a mystery the theme is: I'm going on an adventure: you come, too.
That's sort of how I view mysteries: I've come, too. Is something wrong with ME? (Don't say, if so, now is not the time) hahahaa
Were we thrown off by the First Person Narration? That's sort of a chummy thing, immediately throws you into the action from the point of view of the speaker but were we snookered there, too?
How would it have been different (a Week I question) if it had NOT been in the First Person?
It's a mystery. It's supposed to be mysterious. It is. Very carefully so. When you read Poirot, do you identify with him? Hastings? Mrs. Lemon?
No you don't.
Why do we need to here? Why can't this character stand alone with her flaws and her perceptions?
I'm interested to know this.
Andrea and I appreciate the kind thoughts on the discussion, but without YOU and your own thoughts and contributions and questions and points, we'd be talking to ourselves, and we can do that on the phone.
This has been a great discussion, the author IS present, and IS here in our living rooms reading every word, and is our guest. I'm very much looking forward to next week, so far as I know this is one of the first times we have been able to hold back reading ahead and commenting on it.
Remember this Monday to bring all of your final questions, we've gotten quite a super interview page for SeniorLearn, and that's our own coup, this is a new site and the Reader's Guide we make from this will be fabulous: thanks to you and Carol's generosity in answering.
Still trying to find the Tombola Smorfia game! What a year to break a leg and not be able to go to Italy in person, I'm sure I can find it there.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!---Joan R.
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(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week 3: Through Chapter 24:
It's All in the Cards
What a chapter! Revelations, surprises, but even more secrets, what did you make of it?
1 Talk about unreliable narrators, what do you think of Phineas? Is he reliable? Is Ely? Do you believe Ely?
2. Who is the yet unnamed operative still at the site?
3. The cards and their meanings are revealed!! What are two possible flaws in Ely's plan to use them?
4. " I see Agnes, looking not only very much alive but the picture of health. Her cheeks are pink and her eyes glowing as if she'd just finished a morning jog." (page 232). What's going on with Agnes and why?
5. Are you clear on how the two parallel plots intertwine here? We've only got a small section left. What has Phineas's part in the rites got to do with the hunt for the Golden Verses?
6. What do you think Simon was arguling about with Lyros? What do you think he was struggling to say to Sophie?
7. What do you think Maria was doing on the computer? (page 206) Do you buy her emergency family trip?
8. Betrayal as a theme has just raised its head. How is it paralleled exactly in the two plots?
9. How much do you think Maria saw when she came to look for Sophie? Why couldn't Ely have taken her to land somewhere instead of the swim?
10. "....be careful not to hurt Agnes or Agnes's woman professor." (page 279). What need has Lyros of Agnes's woman professor?
11. What do you think is the most important part of this section and why?
12. What does Sophie's dream about Odette mean? What is meant by the wrong pan and the wrong day? (Babi)
13. What's with the diabetic complication that caused Simon, our artist, to die? (Andrea)
14. " But why would she make up such a story in order to go report to the Church. She is there as a Church representative, and reporting to them would be natural and appropriate. No,...she must have been doing something else."-- Babi. What do you think she was actually doing?
15. Is this book plot driven or character driven? (Deems) Why?
16. What IS the plot, to you, and what climax would you expect at the end?
17. "Ely sent those cards to Sophie, and if he had not sent the date signifying the day she told him of her affair which caused him to join the cult I would not be suspecting him wanting to harm her. But I asked myself, why did he include that date? I don't think he has gotten over her being unfaithful." How do you see Ely?
18. Do Phineas and Iustia have their counterpart in our little group? (JudeS)
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The Temple of Poseidon
Sounion, Greece
Where "Phineas" got the scrolls
Schedule
Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22
Chapters 25-End for June 23 - 30
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
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Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.
New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!
Do you think it's necessary TO identify with the protagonist of every book you read?
OH yes! Yes! Yes! Love them or hate them I am them! (What does that say about me?)
That is why I have become aggravated with Sophie, during this trek.. I keep telling her as I read "come on lady, open up your eyes."
Then I begin to chastise myself, telling ME, to "give the girl a break, she's not had much stability in life, albeit M'Lou, men have betrayed her, women have betrayed her, what kind of woman would I be, if I really WAS her?"
I argue back and forth all the time with my characters and I enjoy it. I seldom say whether I like them or not (because I don't wish to hurt anyone's feelings) but I do have quite a conversation with each of my characters. ..even the men.
"Phineas, you horny little devil."
John, what big, beautiful, blue eyes you have.
Ely ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
I digress. I finished the book!!!!
I actually could have read the History of the World while I was in the air.
We couldn't land in DC or Baltimore, due to horrendous storms, circled for over an hour, round and around until I began to feel dizzy. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, stupid flight attendant told a kid ahead of me that we could run out of fuel and "fall from the sky."
I could write an epistle on this trip but I will only say Bill will NEVER fly again. (That will last until he is invited to fly away for another golf adventure with the guys.) ::)
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Ok maybe I did not try hard enough. I did get in a hurry to finish the book. That coudl have been my problem.
Ginny, I am sure sorry that you are not going to be able to go to Italy this year. I know that you will really miss it. I am not going to France this year and I miss it so much that I can hardly stand it. I hope that your leg is getting much better.
Joan Grimes
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Bellemarie,
I just couldn't identify with Sophie, I have known women like her and want to help them or scream at them. lololol
Bella- bella- didn't you have a sister or a friend that you could have beat soundly for their foolishness?Of course you have but you identify with the person anyway. You loved her and accepted her for her flaws, right? Don't be such a harsh critic of this unfortunate girl. ;D
Come on guys, cut the gal some slack. She has been working through
some major trauma, here.
I am with Babi on this one.
Come on guys, cut the gal some slack. She has been working through
some major trauma, here.
You do side with Ginny though.
because I didn't see Sophie so much as a catch, I really didn't allow myself to care.
AWWWWWWWWWWWW- you women are cold! Cold! Poor lil Sophie.
Belle-
As far as trying to outline the plot....For me it was Sophie overidentifies with Iusta in her thesis, she wants information to finish her book, the shooting takes place, Elgin convinces Sophie to go to Italy, cult members are being revealed, Phineas ties the scrolls into the story, Sophie sees Ely, Iusta is NOT so innocent, Agnes murders Simon and the rest I won't go into. It does seem there were two stories being told, but the mythological one I din't find all that interesting.
Isn't it amazing how we all read into a novel differently? I love that! Love it!
What I liked the very best reading this story was the way that Carol intertwined both worlds.
I am so happy that you are here reading with us Carol and we are blessed to have you, an award winning author taking time out of your very busy writing schedule to bear our scrutiny. (With no compensation either, I might add)
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Ginny,
Why can't this character stand alone with her flaws and her perceptions?
Sophie can stand alone with her flaws and perceptions, I personally just didn't like her. I don't feel I have to identify with the character in any book or movie for that matter. I think its a natural reaction for a woman to look at a female character and see if they have things in common. Not that I didn't find things in common with Sophie, I just found myself disinterested in her. When she did not take any action in the first pages and then when she came home from the hospital, mowed the lawn and trekked off to Italy so soon after her injuries, I lost any form of compassion for her. I thought if she doesn't care for her own health and life by putting herseld at risk, then why should I care? As the story progressed she just kept doing things that detached me further from her.
I was more interested in if the scrolls would defame the Catholic church, and if Iusta was freed. When I began suspecting Iusta stole Phineas scrolls the night she slept with him and she felt honored to participate in the rites I found I didn't care if she got her freedom or not. I just lost interest in the both of them. Elgin with his flaws and perceptions seemed more the character I cared about, but I wasn't rooting for him to end up with Sophie because I saw no love story here.
I liked the mystery, just not the characters.
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Bella said For me, since Sophie getting her information to finish her book on Iusta was the plot, I kept my focus there. That's a good post about plot that you made.
Babi said SANDYROSE, (and JoanG) perhaps this is the plot.
sandyrose said I find it hard to see a plot.
Deems said:
Two plots but I don't see them as parallel.
OK I had to drag out my SparkNotes of Literary Terms.
A PLOT according to them, is the arrangement of events in a story, including the sequence in which they are told, the relative emphasis they are given, and the causal connections between events.
Elements of the Plot:
1. Conflict: the central struggle that moves the plot forward. The conflict can be the protagonist's struggle against fate, nature, society, or another person. In certain circumstances the conflict can be between opposing elements within the protagonist.
What are the conflicts here?
2. Rising action: the early part of the narrative, which builds momentum an develops the narrative's major conflict.
3. Climax: the moment of highest tension, at which the conflict comes to a head.... An anticlimax occurs when the plot builds up to an expected climax only to tease he reader with a frustrating non event. Jane Austen's novels, such as Sense and Sensibility are full of romantic anticlimaxes.
4. Falling action: Also called the denouement, this is the latter part of the narrative, during which the protagonist responds to the events of the climax and the various plot elements introduced in the rising action are resolved.
5. Reversal: Sometimes called by its Greek name peripeteia, a reversal is a sudden shift that sends the protagonist's fortunes from good to bad or vice versa.
6. Resolution: An ending that satisfactorily answers all the questions over the course of the plot.
Oh and under the different types of plots there is:
Subplot: A secondary plot that is of less importance to the overall story but may serve as a point of contrast or comparison to the main plot.
Given the above I can see two plots, running, I think, parallel. This is REALLY clumsy but as Sandy says it's hard.
The main plot to me is Sophie's plot. She's got lots of conflicts, if you tried to graph the plot line of her story like a heart line, and you put it in order (which the book does not, but as Marcie noted: I like the technique that Carol is using to reveal information about Sophie's past...a little at a time. It's a good way to keep suspense and provide clues (or misdirections/red herrings) in different contexts. This is a mystery story and it can't be obvious who did what.
If you put what I see as the main plot in order given you've got Sophie as academic, interest in Iusta, the shooting, trip to Italian villa, translating scrolls, adventure in the dig, creepy people, hunt for scrolls... rising conflict again in the death of Simon, return of Ely, something is wrong, mystery.... Who are the bad guys? What do they want?
Incidental is all of her personal trauma, death of mother, death of baby, abandonment, betrayal, etc. Her story is the main plot.
Secondary plot of course is Phineas and Iusta, again totally made up. He depends on the main plot because he only comes to light as an adjunct, only speaking when translated. He's on a quest also, parallel, to find out what the rites are. He's got a lot of the same issues (betrayal) (curiosity) (in same room) Same grotto, same villa (reconstructed in Sophie's case)....same quest for knowledge and he wants the scrolls back too. So they are all on a quest. The quest centers around the same scrolls and the same place: the ancient Villa Della Notte (fictitious) and the reconstructed one.
Incidental are all the other characters and their interests.
What IS parallel: they are both looking for the scrolls. They are in modern days trying to enact what happened in the ancient times. Sophie is in the room Phineas occupied. They are digging for the scrolls and Phineas is waiting for the rites, something is going to happen in both plots, and the implication is that in the modern time something is going to happen which may...? Recreate the ancient rites? Is Lyros that depraved? IS he depraved at all?
These two plots are the two I see running side by side. Are there others? Is this what you see?
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Andrea, Thank God, you landed safely after those storms. And that flight attendant should be fired for telling that little kid that. grrrrrr is right.
I'm going to say that I think because this book was fiction, I was able to become disinterested and detached from the characters. I am more of a problem solver, feminist and a take action person. Because I knew Sophie was not real, I felt I don't have to care. lolol I am having more and more difficulty reading fiction lately. I never once felt like screaming at her to tell her to wake up. I was just indifferent to her. I don't see that as "cold". I have met women like her and would not choose to have them as friends. I seriously feel the author went too far, for me to care about Sophie or Iusta.
I found myself only wanting to know what was in the scrolls pertaining to the church, and that Sophie could now finish her book.
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Oh my dear Ginny, you just lost me with all that. Now my head is spinning. ::) ::) ::)
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Bella, those are good points on the female characters.
Gum said, She may identify with Iusta on a personal level but her professional side is more discerning - doesn't Elgin say somewhere that she is a skeptic and won't accept anything on face value.
Isn't that interesting? I would have agreed on the first part but not on the second. She seems amazingly willing to accept everything on face value, very little spidey senses working. Makes me wonder what Elgin has going on.
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For myself, I want to put up a few more half-baked theories
hahaha Me too, Pat, they are half the fun of a book discussion, you can't help forming them just like you would reading at home.
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Frybabe By the end of the current section, I am still suspicious of everyone, especially Ely for reasons already stated. I don't for one second believe he is the FBI informant.
Stephanie I can't believe you and Frybabe suspect Ely! I agree falling into his arms was much but ELY as villain? How many of the rest of you see Ely as villain?
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Gum thank you for this Pythagorean theory and the poem:
Never sleep before going over the acts of the day in the mind
And if your actions ill on search you find,
Let grief; if good, let joy possess your mind.
This doe, this think, to this your heart incline,
This way will lead you to the life Divine.
Maybe I'm nuts, but that sounds to me less a life Divine than a life with some kind of Mega Sominex needed. Who in their right minds goes over the negative events of the day? Somebody trying to have sleepless nights and BP issues?
Recipe for BP!
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Countrymm I bet the Library would love to see the heifers. Thank you for telling us about the eightfold path in Yoga too, lots of tangential things here, very interesting! No wonder I'm a mess: CLUTTER!!
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JudeS: I wish I could answer one of your super questions. Sex. Obviously Ely is not in a cult now, right?
I liked this one particularly:
On another matter-Do Phineas and Iustia have their counterpart in our little group?
I think Sophie is supposed to be Phineas. I think she's intended AS a sacrifice which is what I think he's going to be. I may be wrong. If so, who is Iusta in the modern group? Good one, going in heading.
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Joan Grimes, I agree, very challenging discussion. Love it, thank you.
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I agree with Pat H, too but the second quote is a carefully crafted bit of not-quite-specific.
I agree, I definitely see a plan here. But what IS it? To what end? We're about to find out! :)
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Thank you Joan G, we're all posting together, you're not going to France? I am sorry, I do know how that feels. Why? (if I may ask?)
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Andrea I'm glad you are OK, the storms have been unreal another one yesterday I thought of you actually. Where did you fly into? Where did you finally land? LaGuardia closes at the drop of a hat. I don't blame Bill, I'm seriously thinking of taking a boat over to Europe next time despite the faux dress up stuff. I don't care what anybody says, you do NOT sleep on those overnight flights even with a seat which makes a bed which I have had: not enough time, not enough time. VERY tired of jet lag.
OK time to plump down, one way or another:
Ely: good or bad?
Elgin: good or bad?
I say Ely is good (I may be the only one here, maybe this is why I never saw the end coming last time and can't remember it now) and Elgin bad.
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Ginny,
I feel that I am too old to run off to France alone. So I am staying home this summer.
Joan Grimes
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Oh shame, sorry, maybe next year the Art Museum there or some academic group will get up another tour, I do know what you mean tho. We need to get up a group here. Some of those cruises to the Eastern Mediterranean look super and Oxford is to die for. Those are not France tho!
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I don't think it is necessary to 'like' or 'relate to' or 'identify with' any of the characters. This is especially so in a novel like this which as we all know is a mystery and is therefore plot driven. There is almost no character development at all. - well, there isn't in Agatha Christie either is there? We learn bits and pieces about each character's background, their activities and perhaps a little of what may motivate them but they don't grow or develop in any way - everyone stays fundamentally the same as they were when we first met them. Sophie is still licking the wounds which her life experiences have inflicted, Agnes begins to show her true colours, Elgin is perhaps already settled into his mould, so has John Lyros. We do see two manifestations of Ely - one the thin dark haunted student who left Sophie for the Cult and the other the assured man of the world on his luxury yacht but we don't see him grow from one to the other. Of course all this doesn't matter because the story is about the plot. - finding those scrolls - the holy grail for Sophie is the outcome of Iusta's story - for Maria it's the Christian story - and for Ely and Lyros it's the Pythagorean Golden Verses - and for Elgin I think it is purely for the science and for Sophie too!
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Ginny: When I said about Elgin saying Sophie was a skeptic and didn't take anything at face value he was referring to her professional mode - so was I. When it comes to her personal life and dealings with others she just takes whatever happens or is said apparently without question.
But then, Carol G is so good at creating red herrings by giving us a reaction from Sophie or perhaps an erroneous conclusion drawn by her which colours how we see an event or action.
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Gumtree,
Of course all this doesn't matter because the story is about the plot. - finding those scrolls - the holy grail for Sophie is the outcome of Iusta's story - for Maria it's the Christian story - and for Ely and Lyros it's the Pythagorean Golden Verses - and for Elgin I think it is purely for the science and for Sophie too!
I could not have said it better, although I may have already said it, but Gumtree, I like your choice of words better!!!!!!!!!
Elgin has always been good for me...he conviced Sophie to go for the sake of her finishing her book. He went to her hotel room in Italy to check on her, and the boat scene approaching the sirens, that did it for me. He is a my Richard Gere with all his flaws.
Ely sad to say.... my Tom Cruise in Collateral Damage and Eyes Wide Shut (masks and all). That card signifying the day Sophie told him she had the affair and he left sealed the deal. He is a man on a mission....get the scrolls and revenge on Sophie. Why not have sex with her as an ultimate sacrifice. Denegrating women has been a theme throughout this entire story of the rites and initiations it fit perfect.
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Gumtree-
I don't think it is necessary to 'like' or 'relate to' or 'identify with' any of the characters
I can't help it! I am a victim of the story. It matters not which story, I vicariously place myself in their shoes.
I wish that I didn't many times, fiction or non fiction, I can't help myself.
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Ginny asked something about the importance of telling the book in the first person. Doing so makes possible something that to me is an extremely enjoyable aspect of the book. Sophie sees things in terms of pictures, and because she is often sick or delerious they have a dreamlike quality to them. So we get a series of strange, vivid tableaux--the poppy glowing red in the dark outstretched hand of Night, Sophie and Ely spiraling down through the weird underwater light of the grotto, etc. Yuo couldn't do this in the third person.
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wow what an analysis of PLOT. I never knew. There was an overall possibiity of a ghost story connecting the two plots but it never happened. I liked reading most of it though the characters were complex enough to interest me and the setting too. overall I liked the book. And as for liking Sophie, she has her good points. I could spend time with her, although she might be a little bored with me.
I've never been to any place in Europe, so could not UNDERSTAND as to what it is like for you folks who go almost every year. I did wonder about Sophies not using a cell phone AT ALL?? And I wondered about her macho attitude, stressing heself physically and then suffering from it, more like an athlete than a scholar. In comparing it to some of her other books, I see that the heroine is up for physical challanges all the time. How about it Carol . . .is that YOU?
claire
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Winsummm
Good point. Sophie is not just up for physical challenges but is drawn to them. Hard to believe she recently lost half a lung and had pneumonia.Yet she travels, swims, climbs, has energetic sex... SUPERSOPHIE?
Iustia is also somewhat of a superwoman for her time both physically and mentally.
Is that the connection?
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Babi, Come on guys, cut the gal some slack. She has been working through some major trauma, here.
bellamarie: "Sorry, I can't let that be her excuse to justify her actions and inaction. As the saying goes, "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger." I just couldn't identify with Sophie, I have known women like her and want to help them or scream at them. "
Sorry, Babi, if I saw Sophie as working through her problems, I would cut her some slack. But she never seems to be making any headway--or even trying.
Thank you, Pat H for finding the section that sets me straight on when the affair with Elgin began. I obviously missed that or I wouldn't have thought that the affair preceded her living with Ely. Probably the reason I made the assumption can be blamed on my days as a grad student at Maryland. It was a regular sin city with students sleeping with professors, grad students sleeping with professors, other professors sleeping with professors (one man was ordered to keep his office door WIDE open whenever he was in it--and he was the associate chair at the time). Those were the days, my friends.
Ginny--I think the problem is that it is hard not to identify with a first person narrator, even one who is very different from you. In this case, though, I never identified with Sophie except in the opening pages. She just had too many problems. I never did figure out why all those memories of her mother taking her to Mermaidland (or whatever--I know that's the wrong name) were in there. Kept waiting for them to hook up to something, but they didn't--I must have missed it.
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Andy--Relieved to hear that you are safely in NY and also that your plane didn't land in DC. We have had nothing but rain and storms--some really bad ones. No weather to be landing in around this area.
I refuse to cut Sophie any slack. She doesn't give me enough information for me to care.
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Deems,
I refuse to cut Sophie any slack. She doesn't give me enough information for me to care.
Amen I say to this!!!!
Deems, Probably the reason I made the assumption can be blamed on my days as a grad student at Maryland. It was a regular sin city with students sleeping with professors, grad students sleeping with professors, other professors sleeping with professors (one man was ordered to keep his office door WIDE open whenever he was in it--and he was the associate chair at the time). Those were the days, my friends.
Its happened since the beginning of time and will continue. That is why I didn't take it to heart. I'm NOT saying I condone it, or approve in any way of it, but it is what it is and these young adults are making their decisions and learning along the way. But it appears Sophie doesn't learn much along her way, and the author can only expect the readers to use her past so far before we say, enough already. This is why my first question was, Is Sophie supernatural, or a figment of a dream or imagination.
JudeS , Iustia is also somewhat of a superwoman for her time both physically and mentally.
Is that the connection?
I think the connection was they both were seperated by their mother, they both were looking for the scrolls for their own personal agendas. I think both women saw advantages to their situations and used them. Sophie went on the dig with Elgin in spite of the reputation she described him to have. Iusta stole the scrolls from Phineas in spite of the reputation she knew he had. Both men showed some true care and concern for these two women. Both men had their flaws, but both women could overlook them as long as they got what they wanted in the end. Each woman had one thing on their mind, "THE SCROLLS" and no price was too big to pay for them, whether it be their health, self worth, or lives for that matter.
Deems,[/color] I never did figure out why all those memories of her mother taking her to Mermaidland
My only understanding and connection to Sophie going to Mermaid shows and Agnes having the Little Mermaid quilt is Triton and Ursula fought for control of the sea, and Poeisdon and Athena fought for control of the sea, and then you have the cult and the church and Phineas and Iusta/ Calatoria fighting for control of the scrolls representing control of creation. POWER in all these instances. Also, I think Agnes slipped up and let Sophie know she knew about her going to the Mermaid shows when she was young and Ely knew that personal info of Sophie's childhood. Hence, Agnes and Ely have a connection, both members of cult, (clue Agnes has dark circles under her eyes from lack of sleep when Sophie went to her dorm, just like Ely when he spent endless nights reading the books on the Tetraktys).
None of this is any give away to the end, this has been my theory and suspicions from early on and have happened already, in our first two assigned sections.
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Thanks, Bellamarie, for this:
"My only understanding and connection to Sophie going to Mermaid shows and Agnes having the Little Mermaid quilt is Triton and Ursula fought for control of the sea, and Poeisdon and Athena fought for control of the sea, and then you have the cult and the church and Phineas and Iusta/ Calatoria fighting for control of the scrolls representing control of creation. POWER in all these instances. Also, I think Agnes slipped up and let Sophie know she knew about her going to the Mermaid shows when she was young and Ely knew that personal info of Sophie's childhood."
I was so annoyed by Sophie's return to those memories that I didn't notice the parallels you point out.
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If, as Bellamarie hints, it's going to be important that Ely knows of Sophie's memories of the mermaid shows, we have another example of red herrings, because so far, the only person we know who knows of this is Elgin.
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I don't think that Carol wrote the book as a CLASSICS FINAL. I haven't tried to make that kind of connection. The first person present grabs me though in any book. I enjoyed it as somewhat confusing fiction. as for cutting someone slake. If I didn't do that I wouldn't like anyone at all. This world is full of SCREW UPS. And that include me . . . .
claire
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PatH, I have found numerous red herrings, every since someone mentioned there could be some. Before that I was running around in circles trying to connect everything and everyone.
Remember at the time Agnes mentions to Sophie about the mermaid shows she went to as a child,(pg.165) Sophie is thinking she told Elgin that story on their way to Capri. NO WHERE in her statement or any where else, does the narrator imply that Elgin in the ONLY person she shared that with. Sophie has no reason to suspect Ely would have told Agnes because she has only known Agnes for 3 yrs, and Ely has been gone for 5 yrs. I have been suspecting Agnes is a cult member as far back as when Sophie visited her dorm and said she had dark circles under her eyes and was thinner than the picture of her on the wall (like Ely when he stayed up all night reading the books on the cult and did a strict diet.) So....I think hmmm, just maybe Agnes and Ely have met in the Tetkratys and Ely could have told Agnes about Sophie's mermaid shows. At this point I had already been suspecting Ely as a bad guy, but I needed more proof. When Ely sent the card pertaining to the date of Sophie sleeping with Elgin and he left for the cult scorned, I connected Agnes and Ely together wanting to do harm to Sophie, beause the day Agnes mentioned the mermaid shows is the day she took Sophie swimming and put her in danger. At first I thought Agnes slipped up and mentioned the mermaid shows, but then I decided she was toying with Sophie's mind enjoying the fact poor little Sophie would never suspect her the one person she has been so protective of. I thought oh you little minx, and that is when I saw Agnes is more like Iusta, sly and unsuspecting to those near to them.
winsummm...I don't think Carol wrote the book as a Classic final either, but Carol said herself she used vaious books on classics as references to write this book. I chose to concentrate on four stories that Carol mentions in NV, The Littel Mermaid, Poseidon, Ovid's Metamorphoses and Iusta, and I tried to connect what is the same in each of them. Struggling to possess POWER kept leaping out at me.
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True, Bellemarie. The Pythagorean theory and number in general are key to the structure of the plot; ie., clues and cues. But they are no more than that.
As to life's traumas, they do make you stronger eventually. But meantime,they do make you more vulnerable, more easily distracted, and less able to make decisions. I would have been more disturbed by the 'too soon' sex scene between Sophie and Ely, if they had not been a couple for so long. I'm not justifying Sophie, simply pointing out that she is human.
Having said that, I must agree that as a character she does not greatly interest
me.
GINNY
Do you think it's necessary TO identify with the protagonist of every book you read?
By no means. It has happened that in reading a book, I will be able to identify
with one of the characters, but that is because I find we have much in common.
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What great posts. I respect, personally, an author who does her homework. It's a rare thing for those who write about classics in general, TO have accuracy. Usually it's like watching Spartacus and seeing a rolex watch on one of the soldiers, (which does occur in that movie along with about a million other flaws).
Carol has a niche here in that she was a Latin teacher, so she would know, about Iusta and the Eleusinian mysteries, I'm not sure I have heard a lot of people talking about them recently, but more than that, she has done her homework and researched it thoroughly so there are no holes in the research. Then she's taken them and made a different (Iusta lost her suit and is pawn for these rites) and delightful modern adaptation of several old myths and stories.
JudeS asks who is the modern parallel to Iusta? That's a good question. Could it be a man, one wonders. I think, still having not read the end, this time, it's Sophie.
That's a good point Gum on Agatha Christie. What a clever woman she was. She gives just the beginning of a description and the reader eagerly fills in the gaps, and the characterization, it's amazing, really, almost like the two, reader and author, writing the book. It's eye opening to reread her. Very clever.
We really appreciate Carol who, we may have forgotten, IS reading this discussion, as our Guest, and who has been so generous to us the entire time, meeting with us in NYC on her own time: she's gotten absolutely nothing out of this for her time and trouble and we really appreciate it.
As our next week begins on Monday, we'll have to begin gathering up the crumbs and napkins and getting ready to go home from our virtual living room here.
Please have any last questions for Carol to put here Monday our last week.
I may be alone in this but to me Sophie makes perfect sense. Her radar is not out, but as Babi said, she's been under quite a lot of stress. There ARE some people who don't obsess over everything, nor think it into the ground, but plow on, relentlessly, especially when it's blow after blow, not even allowing themselves to think like these Pythagoras folks, to think over the day before going to bed that night. She just keeps plowing on. Just because she's in the first person, does not mean we're privy to her every thought, or are we? (I agree with Pat H that it does make for great imagery). I think she could have done it in 3rd person, but it would not have been half as effective, it took us with her on a Disney ride of swirling images. I liked that, very much, you never knew what was up. :)
She's doing well to get thru the day much less do analytical thinking about what's going on, she's plowing her interest into the scrolls, sort of...what's the word? Externalizing or pushing away her problems. Again I know a lot of people who do this. Her subconscious catches up with her in the form of Odette and dreams, but she finally outwardly succumbs to the double whammy of the water, getting stuck (how DID her mother die? Did she get stuck too? ) having an epiphany about her mother's gleam in the eye, and having Ely back. She's obviously young (we don't know how young) and she falls into a bad decision with him. As Claire says, it happens? It is what it is, maybe it has not happened to all of us here personally but it does happen.
Tio me this is almost a magic book. Every time I go back and read it I see something I did not see before, a different slant.. I know nobody has come in, in the night, and rewritten it. I wish I could figure out how I keep getting off the track. Red herrings, indeed! :)
Pat mentioned that Elgin is the only one to this point who knows about her mother drowning but didn't she say somewhere in the beginning something about she and Ely had that in common: drowning, his brother, her mother? Did she share that with him? We don't know who Elgin told. There's a lot we don't know. I'm looking forward to finding out today when I read the last bit. What fun!
Any last minute thoughts on the first three quarters of the book? Great discussion!
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Babi,
The Pythagorean theory and number in general are key to the structure of the plot; ie., clues and cues. But they are no more than that.
I agree, early on when I researched Plato's Pythagorean theory(which I had no prior knowledge of) and personally came to the conclusion it has to do someting with creation and Christ, I started connecting that with the other stories. I decided to stop worrying so much about the numbers. The numbers for me was a bit "above my pay grade", as Obama has said before, and I use it when I choose not to continue trying to explain something beyond my comprehension. lolol It's a great phrase as an OUT. :o
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Ginny,
Pat mentioned that Elgin is the only one to this point who knows about her mother drowning but didn't she say somewhere in the beginning something about she and Ely had that in common: drowning, his brother, her mother? Did she share that with him?
Ginny I think PatH was talking about Elgin was the only one Sophie told about the mermaid shows.
The link Sophie and Ely had was they both lost a loved one at the same age. His brother did not drown like Sophie's mom.
pg. 79 "Ely had lost his brother when he was ten. It was one of the links that Ely believed held us together, that we both lost someone important to us when we were the same age.
pg. 82 "Ely's never said what Paul died of,
pg.83. "Cystic Fibrosis ," Ruth said,..."We found out Paul had it when I was pregnant with Ely.
Ginny, We really appreciate Carol who, we may have forgotten, IS reading this discussion, as our Guest, and who has been so generous to us the entire time, meeting with us in NYC on her own time: she's gotten absolutely nothing out of this for her time and trouble and we really appreciate it.
How could we ever forget such an astute author is among us! I have to say from her response she has gotten more than expected from our posts. She has said we have helped her see how we find links she didn't realize were there. We are a clever group! Carol, if you check in today, please know we all are so very grateful and honored to have you with us. Thank you so much for giving of your time and insights to our questions.
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Bella, The link Sophie and Ely had was they both lost a loved one at the same age. His brother did not drown like Sophie's mom. You're right, I find upon rereading. Paul had cystic fibrosis.
And cystic fibrosis is a lung disease, I got this from the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation:
* clogs the lungs and leads to life-threatening lung infections; and
* obstructs the pancreas and stops natural enzymes from helping the body break down and absorb food.
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Yes Ginny, I happen to be on the board of a newly foundation for Cystic Fibrosis. My son's best childhood friend had a son born seven years ago with this lung disease. He and his wife began what is now "Sal's Pals" named obviously after little Sal. We have an annual dinner/auction each year, along with a wine tasting event, two golf outings, and the Great Strides walk in the spring. We were proud to give a check to the National CF Foundation for over a half million raised. Our prayers are they will find a cure to help the millions afflicted with this and to find it before Sal reaches the age it could take his life. My son's other friend lost his sister to this disease a year ago, she was only 23 yrs old. It has devastated his family, but being a part of Sal's Pals has given him a chance to honor his sister in a way she would be proud.
As we all say at "Sal's Pals"................Until there is a cure!
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GINNY,
Sophie and Ely..... both lost a loved one at the same age. His brother did not drown like Sophie's mom.[/b] You're right, I find upon rereading. Paul had cystic fibrosis.
And cystic fibrosis is a lung disease, I got this from the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation:
* clogs the lungs and leads to life-threatening lung infections; and
* obstructs the pancreas and stops natural enzymes from helping the body break down and absorb food.
Both conditions tie in with Sophie's fear of not being able to breathe, of drowning (lungs filled with fluid), and of being trapped under or by water.
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Yes, countrymm so true. I was just pointing out that Paul did not literally drown in a lake, like Sophie's mother. But essentially it was the lungs that could not breathe for both Paul and her mother, which is Sophie's fear of not being able to breathe and of drowning.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/20/arts/design/20acropolis.html?th&emc=th
Let's all meet at the new museum in Athens!
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Thank you countrymm, how amazing it is!!! Loved seeing Athena. I needed a little getaway today. ;)
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I can't find it now, but Sophie mentions that Ely had misunderstood his mother's statement that brother Paul's lungs had filled with water and for a long time he thought his brother had drowned. Ely felt that both of them losing relatives to "drowning" was a bond between them.
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The mention of how Ely's brother died is on pg. 82 and 83. Sophie is asking Ruth how Paul died, she says Ely had never told her. The mother says Cystic Fibrosis. Earlier when someone else said he drowned like Sophie's mother, I hesitated, because I remembered Cystic Fibrosis, because it is a foundation I am involved in. I did not take the time to point it out back then, I was busy chasing myself in circles for other clues, and forgot to post the page where they had the conversation.
Like Ginny says, "She thinks this book is magic." We go back and re read and see something new, in some cases we realized we thought we read it or we assumed something by the way the narrator sets us up. Its easy to do.
Ciao for now................
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this book with all its detail is like a puzzle for a group like this. We just have to understand every thing in its own slot before going on.
I let things slide until they start bothering me enough to make me care. Then it's off to google. I expect to go back into this agsin some time.
right now I'm learning how derivatives work in the stock market by reading FOOLS GOLD having gotten hooked into this subject previously by HOUSE OF CARDS. The politics and the world of trade are an interesting part of this Night Villa book for their time. I'll be back to it.
There is a personal subject that arose for me while reading about the ancient artifacts etc. I personalized. As a lifetime artist who has saved a body of work, I began to think that it might be appreciated finally intwo thousand years when at least the ceramics may have survived. It is a form of immortality.
claire
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QUESTION FOR CAROL
Most versions of the so-called 'Golden Verses' contain in excess of 40 adages which may be interpreted by adherents as precepts for living.
What led you to choose to use only the three questions a Tetraktys member must ask himself each night:
Where did I go wrong today?
What did I accomplish?
What obligation did I not perform?
in preference to one or more of the more positive precepts.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!---Joan R.
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Week IV: Finis!
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The climax of the mystery rites: the kneeling initiate uncovers a fertility symbol while the winged figure prepares to strike her.
Villa of the Mysteries, Pompeii
What a finish! What a movie this would make! Were you right? Did you get any of them right at all?
1. What was the biggest surprise for you in this ending full of surprises?
2. What is the climax?
3. Was there a parallel plot? If so who was Iusta?
4. Why did they move to the Hotel Convento?
5. Who sent the note Nemesis?
6. SO much to talk about! Tell us what you think!
7. Who left the scroll in the courtyard, originally? Remember that one? Why?
8. Odette has surfaced again. What part does she play in this book? Who does she represent?
9.Any book with a Magic 8 Ball in it is magic itself. Still got a lingering question? Click here and ask the (http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~ssanty/cgi-bin/eightball.cgi) (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/smallmagic8ball.jpg) a question!
10. What did you like best about this book? (Joan R)
11. I would love to talk about what we each saw as red herrings. What had YOU individually chasing a clue you finally gave up on, or realized in the end it was nothing more than either a what it represented, or indeed was a red herring? (bellamarie)
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The Return of Persephone by Frederic Leighton(1830)–1896)
Demeter, to whom Iusta still prayed, receives her daughter Persephone at last.
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The Initiate is comforted
as the Bacchante begins her wild dance...
Villa of the Mysteries, Pompeii
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
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Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.
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Question for Carol
When Sophie studies the Smorfia tiles looking for patterns that meant something to Ely, as narrator she says: I remember he liked the Fibonacci Sequence, prime numbers, the digits of pi, and palindromic numbers ...
As 'the digits of pi' are devoid of pattern why are they included in this list of sequences in which patterns do occur? The inclusion of prime numbers is also somewhat of a puzzle as there is no formula for evaluating the sequence of the prime numbers. Therefore, what pattern could Ely have found in them?
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My computer froze up on me in the middle of reading posts. So irritating.
Countrmm, the new Acropolis Museum is fabulous. Thanks for the link. (I got
to view all that lovely statuary without climbing all those stairs!)
GUM, maybe Sophie was just recalling all the things Ely liked in math, while
exploring for patterns. Oh, well, Carol will be able to explain. Like Obama and
Bella like to say...."Over my pay scale." ???
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i've been catching up on your most recent posts and questions that you've assembled for Carol.
This is by far one of the best discussions we have had yet on our new site and it is all because of your insightful posts and opinions. I personally learned a great deal and enjoyed my refresher course in mythology. I ove what you all have brought to the table- a bit of yourselves. :D
Deems-- I did land in DC-- well we were diverted to Dulles airport because Reagan and Baltimore were CLOSED! Our connecting flight was
at Reagan, so you can imagine the mess there- no airline allowed in or out!
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This is by far one of the best discussions we have had yet on our new site and it is all because of your insightful posts and opinions
I agree! And now the climax and denouement to come, I can't wait.
Great questions, I thought the watch stealing was for local color since that is what happens and the players and beggars on the trains, too.
We'll find out, thank you for the great questions!
Funny thing. Last night I had some free time and I sat down to read to the end. I did not remember it at all. All I had remembered in that first fast read was I never saw it coming. The sun was setting, I turned on a reading light, my husband was out on the tractor and I started to read.
After a while noticed I was clutching the book and nervously talking mentally to Phineas. (What are you thinking? Are you CRAZY?) I noticed it was dark outside, turned on another light.
Jeepers, I read on, there were no lights on in the entire house but the ones around me, kind of spooky, looked mighty dark outside, dark inside too with the book, dark for the characters, too, husband still out on tractor, I actually got scared, can you believe that? Talk about overidentification. I thought why am I reading this before I go to sleep, talk about Pythagoras, and the three questions, the main question for ME is: do you want to SLEEP tonight at all? So I left it off for the day time just at the part when Sophie and Agnes have decided to go together to find the scrolls!
I'm thinking no, why go with Agnes, huh? Why Agnes, the two of you, HUH? What's going on here? Hello, Sophie? What magic has been worked that this makes sense, to her, what makes THAT feasible?
So now I'm screaming mentally at Sophie and Phineas and in THAT I guess they are parallel for me. Went to bed, first waiting for husband to come in house safely. Nervous. Noticed fire burning in the big burning can where he burned the trash, there's a fire in the dark, too. do de dooo dooo, spooky!
Can't wait to finish it. :)
Tomorrow's the day! Try to put your questions up early and let's discuss the end and the whole book together!
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Ginny, the name Tombola is familiar. Did you google it? Somewhere overseas I remember people talking and using that term.
I finished the book, so must be careful until tomorrow. I am still mad at Sophy however
Gee ... ginny, I do identify with certain authors and not others and I am still sitting here trying to decide what triggers it. I do know that if Iread book that I dont like any of the characters, I tend to not want to finish the book...
I do want to read more of Carols work and when I get home, will do my swap stuff and see if I find any. Also if the bookstore across the street from the campground opens, will look for her.
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See Ginny! I told you that is exactly what I do when I read. Many times it brings Bill out of his seat to ask me what (?) or to whom I am speaking! I always hollar and chat, sometimes cry with my characters. If I don't find myself doing that, it is usually an indication that I do not like the book! I liked this novel and have "talked trash" with most of the characters.
Unlike, you, Steph, I find it very hard to NOT finish a book even if I don't like it because of a sensitivity to the author I think.
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Ginny, Indeed why go with Agnes? grrrrr once again Sophie's danger instincts do not kick in. She frustrates me to no end! The night I finished the book, I woke up at 3:00 in the morning and could NOT go back to sleep for nothing. I had the most unsetteling feeling in me. I finally fell back to sleep at 6:00 a.m. and had to get up at 6:30. Needless to say I had myself a very tiring day ahead of me. All the descriptions in the caves, the bones etc. just down right freaked me out!!
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Well I am the first to post.
I simply can't believe that my guess- "Wouldn't it be amazing if Sophie and Elgin went off into the sunset to teach Archeology together" came true.
I didn't find the book scary in the least since I was learning about ancient times and couldn't really care about those characters. I knew Sophie would come out safely since Heroines don't die in Mystery stories , only in tragedies. I also continued to like Elgin throughout and again glad he turned out so well.
Thank you Archeological buffs for all your great information.
Especially thanks to Ginnny for a superb discussion.
Thanks to Carol for a book we could all love or hate as the case may be. Nothing milkytoast about this story.
Happy Fathers Day to all the Dads that support their wives mania for fiction!
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I'd better plug in my thoughts before more hints of the next section leak through--I've been not reading the last few posts.
So Ely shows up. According to his own story, he was a believing cult member right up to the end of the five years, when he overheard the plans to shoot Elton, but here he is, acting mighty normal for someone who's been brainwashed, and claiming to be the FBI informer. I don't believe he is; he didn't claim to be until Sophie told him she didn't know the informer's identity. So what's he up to? Part of the Tetraktys agenda? He gets information from someone in the villa, and it's probably Maria. She could have planted the poppy and two of the sets of tiles, and she would be likely to primp before going to meet him (after Agnes and Simon were trapped).
I'm mystified as to who, if anyone, Sophie will link up with. If you look at the tone she uses when talking about the men, she is still in love with Ely, and not at all likely to fall for Elgin, or, for that matter, Lyros. But she could have a change of heart.
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Thanks JudeS, I hope we can start discussing tomorrow this last section. I guess I should not have talked about half finishing it, but I have not yet finished it, so will do that well before nightfall. hahahaa I'll enjoy, I am sure, reading your post tomorrow. :)
Pat is right! Tomorrow's the Day, Everybody!
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I sometimes, but not always, identify with characters in books. In this case, I partially identify with Sophie, though I'm not much like her.
Under normal circumstances I would never have read this book at such a leisurely pace. After about the first quarter, the book would have swallowed me up and not spit me out again until I'd finished it, probably by reading all night. But it's been fun doing it this way, and letting it mull around in my brain. Now I'll leave this discussion and not come back until tomorrow, having read the last quarter and found out how wrong I was. See you then.
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I agree, Pat, Under normal circumstances I would never have read this book at such a leisurely pace. After about the first quarter, the book would have swallowed me up and not spit me out again until I'd finished it, probably by reading all night. But it's been fun doing it this way, and letting it mull around in my brain. Me too. And I've been absolutely amazed at how good this group has been about NOT spilling the beans AND not going ahead and as a result it's been a rare experience. Loved it.
I came BACK in to say thank you Countrymm for that fantastic link to the new museum in Athens, it's all over the news today: Field Trip! hahahaa
Also came in to say also in the news today is TODAY is the DAY for Stonehenge and the neo-Druids, New Age Followers and others who gathered to await the sunrise today, to celebrate the longest day of the year.
They were expecting 20,000 of them before 5 am. I've been there when they were there, and you thought the Tetratkys were odd. :) They say they are going to let them touch the rocks! I guess to do that most of us need to go on the solstice.
They are EXTREMELY interesting, and that's putting it mildly. See you tomorrow!
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GINNY!! I found your game! Here:
http://www.fieri-boston.org/tombola.htm
Thank goodness Elgin is a good guy - I was rooting for him all along!
I've enjoyed this book so much, more for the background, I guess, but on the whole it was a really good read. The discussion was fabulous and it was so great to have Carol come in here and there and answer the questions. I'm looking forward to her new book. I've read 3 of her books but not the" Ghost Orchid" or "The Sonnet Lover". Now I want to read those too. I'll be meeting Pedln in NYC on Tuesday - we'll be going to the Strand where I may be able to pick them up. I know Pedln has a long list of books to look for but I expect she plans to have them shipped. Say, when are the bookies assembling in person again?? We had such a fabulous time last year!
Have been reading the David Sider book - had to buy it since it was not available in our library system which surprised me. Thanks for pointing us to it!
Bellamarie - I kind of think you watched the Disney film of the Little Mermaid. Please, please go back to the original Andersen story in an authentic translation. It may make you weep but it is a fabulous tale - it even involves a quest for an immortal soul. It's much different from the film and different, too, from the sanitized tales in picture books. I'm sure you would like it. P.S. Don't mind me - I'm always pushing stuff at people!!!
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We do need to get together again as a Books Group, wasn't that FUN?
Nooo, THANK you for looking but it's the Tombola Smorifa we need, the one with the drawings on the back!!! I ran over there and it's a normal tombola game, we need the Smorfia one! We shall get one and play it in memory when we meet again.
Have fun at your lunch and take photos!
Can't wait tilll tomorow, first one in, start right out, check heading or say what you want! (I have already asked the Ball two things, won't tell you the answer but Carol was right! hahahaa)
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OK, I've finished the book (told you I get sucked in) and also had time to cook and eat supper. I won't say ONE THING about the book until tomorrow, but I want to say something about Stonehenge. I went there in 1958; back then you could still wander freely among the stones, and I could have touched them anywhere I could reach. (I didn't, out of respect for what my touch multiplied by thousands would do.) There were very few people around, so you could take in the feel of the place, and it was a little creepy, with a hint of power to it. No matter how mistaken are the underlying beliefs, old sacred sites still keep some of their old power.
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JudeS,
I simply can't believe that my guess- "Wouldn't it be amazing if Sophie and Elgin went off into the sunset to teach Archeology together" came true.
I rooted for Richard Gere and Julia Roberts to ride off into the sunset in Pretty Woman and Runaway Bride..............BUT.....Night Villa was far from a love story, Sophie is far from a Julia Roberts and so riding off into the sunset to teach Archeology together is not necessarily an ending I would expect to ring true to this book. She lives with Ely, has an affair with Elgin, tells Elgin she would not go on the dig the first time because she did not want him to get the impression she has any feelings lingering from her breaking off their affair, she makes goo goo eyes at Lyros and contemplates sleeping with him one minute, then wraps her legs around Ely the next and we are to believe it was a happily ever after for her and Elgin??? I think NOT! Although, I along with you and I suspect many others predicted this would be the end, I have to say I was hoping it wouldn't. But then as fickle as Sophie has been all through the book I should not ask why, I should ask why not?
There is a lot to discuss that happened in this last section, can't wait to hear eveyone's thoughts.
Ciao for now.......................
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It might be the longest day of the year for you my dear Ginny - but for me it is the shortest one - it's fine, but dreary, no sun and cold - well cold for an Aussie! I've been out in the garden pruning trees which has at least warmed me up and put me in a better frame of mind even though it's left me totally exhausted ::)
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Wow oh wow what a socko ending, Never Saw it Coming II.
Man o man was I wrong or was I wrong? hahaha I had them totally reversed! Laughed out loud at the Magic 8 Ball IN the book hahaha, have had a wonderful time with the Purdue 8 Ball site in the heading asking it questions, have a go if you like.
So what do you think? Whaddya whaddya?
That was exciting, I must say. I loved the additional puzzles at the end, which path to take?
Gum, IS it the longest day? The Stonehengers seem to think so, it sounds as if you've had The Longest Time out there pruning, what season IS it in Australia now?
Pat you can't get near it now, you walk around Stonehenge on a pretty path with an excellent audio which explains lots of super things. I wouldn't get within a mile of it when they are there, been there, very very strange people (probably all Tetratkys) VERY odd, doo de doo doo. You are right that the ancient sites STILL have a voice and powers, over a lot of people not just...er...odd people.
Jude, thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed the discussion. I hate to scrape back the chairs and gather up the plates and our books and to leave.
As Bellamarie says we have a lot to discuss yet, hate to see it end.
Did you figure out WHO was in the little shaft with the scroll? That surprised me, too!
What's the climax? That's the part I can't figure out. Can we say the main plot was Sophie so the climax was.....and the secondary plot was Iusta so the climax for her plot was?
If I confessed that right up to the end I STILL thought Lyros would turn out to be a skunk would you laugh? Every page that kept turning I STILL thought he'd be revealed! hahahaa
I even looked hopefully at the pages following the Epilogue.
So he's not a villain and Maria is not either but yet everybody moved from Lyros's house to the Hotel Convento again, why?
I liked it that Iusta's voice ended the book. I'm not sure why. Poor Telesforus tho, who in real life DID testify against Calatoria, his mistress, in favor of Iusta, took a big chance but he sure got a poor comeuppance in this one, huh?
Here's something I don't know, WHO dropped the original scroll on the courtyard?
Remember that one?
And when?
Putting that one and any question YOU have the ball can't answer maybe Carol can in the heading. Please post your last questions for Carol here today.
What do you THINK?
Would you believe after reading this one I passed by the TV showing The Talented Mr. Ripley? I love Highsmith and this series particularly, have read it many times, Matt Damon scared me to death this time, I guess I was spooked anyway, so could not watch too much of it, such fun.
Such a fun group you've been here. Let's talk about the end!
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Ginny,
Would you believe after reading this one I passed by the TV showing The Talented Mr. Ripley? I love Highsmith and this series particularly, have read it many times, Matt Damon scared me to death this time, I guess I was spooked anyway, so could not watch too much of it, such fun.
Dooooo Dooooo Dooooo Doooo That is the movie I mentioned long time back casting either Matt Damon or Jude Law as Simon. That is weird you would mention it now. More later...
Ciao for now......................
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I wasn't surprised that Sophie came out all right, JUDE. I was very surprised to
learn that Iusta survived...and how! Not to mention Phineas. I thought he was 'a goner for sure'.
I see a subtle suggestion, again, that the 'ghost' is real. When Sophie blows the match out, in that very warm little chapel, her breath condenses in the air like smoke. That only happens in cold air, and everyonewho has read a ghost story knows the air grows colder when ghosts are around. As for me, I’m open-minded on the subject. As I believe in the survival of the spirit, I have to suppose it is possible that one might have unfinished business here or watch over loved ones. And I’ve heard first-person stories from people who might have deceived themselves, but would not knowingly deceive others.
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Now that's we've finished, may I ask what the FBI is doing in Italy. It makes no sense, as to the best of my understanding, the FBI looks at so-called Domestic crimes, and other agencies are more or less looking at foreign crimes.
Obviously Sophie would survive ... sorry, Carol Goodman, you didn't make me tremble when it looked like Sophie would be buried alive ... she had to live to the end of the book. How could the book conclude without Sophie? I still think Meryl Streep would be the best actress for the part when this is made into a movie. Any nibbles from Hollywood, Carol?
I always thought Ely was no good, and Marie was just a red-herring character.
Thanks, Deems, for that red herring explanation, which I kind of recalled from Trollope's hunting scenes.
Agnes as the "bad guy" is confusing to me ... did we have enough hints? ???
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I didn't think Sophie would have to live to the end, at all? (And as previously noted, the events of the end scared me to death hhahaa) Had to actually put it down and get up in the sun and finish it.
Why couldn't she have died and the coda have been written by Elgin?
OR even better, by Odette! I need to put Odette back in the questions, what was she doing there? Who IS she, actually?
Even Holmes died (and was resurrected later because of Doyle's Mother's missing him).
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That makes me want to ask Carol two more questions:
1. Is Sophie going to have a sequel?
2. Who dropped the scroll in the courtyard originally, when, and why?
And a hearty thanks, as well, to Carol, for your generosity to us, and for really writing a heck of a book, I loved it right to the end, it was perfect for our discussion.
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Babi that's brilliant on the ghost!!
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What did you all like the best about the book? That's Joan R's question, will put it in the heading also.
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I was very surprised to see that Maria was who she said she was and George stayed in the background. Also surprising was Iustas' and Phineas' ending. I liked that Sophie was able to use what she read in the translation to help her get out of her predicament in the "hole". I wasn't too surprise to see that it wasn't Iusta in the hole with the scroll.
The "informer" was never revealed was he/she? Or was it actually Lyros (who did turn out to be a former cult member)?
So Lyros takes a backseat while Elgin gets to ride off into the sunset with Sophie, it seems. I didn't get a real sense of true romance there at the end though.
Well, it is about time for me to go out and mow the lawn. Ugh! Be back later.
ps: Odette reminds me of the Oracle in The Matrix.
oh, yes and do ask Carol about a sequel. The ending fairly begs for the continuing adventures of Sophie and Elgin.
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The following question had to be removed from the heading when it changed so am posting it here where Carol can see it:
From Gumtree:
At the beginning of Chapter 9 there is an episode when Sophie is on the train and a young girl and a man with an accordion get on. When they leave Sophie asks herself "What was that all about?" and then discovers her watch has been stolen by the child.
Like Sophie, I'm asking myself What was that all about? Why is this passage in the novel? What is the purpose or meaning of this incident other than Sophie is now bereft of her watch? Is it just for local colour - to indicate time passing as Sophie waits for the train to move on - or did I miss something?
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The following excellent questions were received in email so am posting them here so Carol can see them.
From bellamarie:
1. Carol, while reading all our posts and how we were researching and tying clues together, did you see where we missed some things that would have given us more insight to what the ending would be?
2. Did you feel at any time when we were posting our likes or dislikes or indifference about Sophie's character that you could understand where we were coming from?
3. Was it your intent to have Sophie seem strong physically and yet weak emotionally because of her losses? Is this athletic Sophie YOU, Carol?
4.. When you said in your interview this book would make people see religions in a different way, is it because of the cult mentality of the Tetraktys and their behaviors or did you feel with the Pythagorean theory, Sibyls, fortune tellers and the mythological practices along with the mention of the fanatical Catholic upbringing of Sophie and Agnes's fear of the nuns this all would give reason to ponder?
5. Since the scrolls were the essential story plot from beginning to end, would it be fair to assess ultimately, the theme of the book was about the keys to possessing "The Power" overall? (the trident in Little Mermaid and Poseidon, the scrolls for the church/ cult/Iusta/Phineas/Calotoria, and the answers to Sophie for her book and possibly her finding closure)
6. Why the mention of the Little Mermaid quilt on Agnes's bed and Sophie going to the mermaid shows? Were those clues dropped along the way or did I read more into it than what you intended?
7. I was a little taken with Sophie going to the church in the end since she so strongly disliked the fanatical Catholic religion growing up. Are we to believe Sophie had a change of heart with her Catholic faith in then end, or was that just a way for her to find the statue and Iusta's confession?
6. Was the saying, "many are the narthex bearers, but few are the Bacchoi." to represent anything in particular? Was it a clue in some way? I really didn't tie it into anything other than Noah's Ark and the survivors of the volcano.
7. How did you decide to have Odette's voice become the voice to help save Sophie in the end? Was Odette's voice Sophie's own subconscious voice helping her when her conscious was not clear enough to think it through? I was a bit troubled a with Odette's voice being the saving grace here, but then as a Christian believer there have been times my mother or other loved ones who have passed away have given me direction and insight to help me in situations by hearing their voices spiritually so I decided to be okay with Odette's voice helping Sophie escape.
8. Did you enjoy reading our posts, and at any time did we offend you with any of our comments? If so I apologize in advance.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
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Mippy,
Agnes as the "bad guy" is confusing to me ... did we have enough hints?
I suspected her not the forlorn little southern Baptist girl from the very beginning as I posted many times. My Mom always said to watch out for those quiet types, they are sneaky and dangerous. lolol The fact I suspected her in the cult made me suspicious of her relationship and motives with Sophie. My stranger danger feelers were out on her early on.
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The fact I suspected her in the cult made me suspicious of her relationship and motives with Sophie. My stranger danger feelers were out on her early on.
Me too Bellamarie. In fact I thought Sophie was really naive not to catch on to Agnes early on. Oh well so much for that.
Joan Grimes
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Mippy,
Marie was just a red-herring character.
I would love to talk about what we each saw as red herrings. What had YOU individually chasing a clue you finally gave up on, or realized in the end it was nothing more than either a what it represented, or indeed was a red herring? I can't wait to see what you all say. I will list some of mine:
The tower where Charles Whitman shot fourteen people and wounded others.
The missing book of Sophie's, Agnes borrowed.
"many are the narthex bearer's, but few are the Bacchoi"
Mentions of all the different types of odors.
The girl, guy and woman on the train ride.
Odette's words during Sophie's hospital stay. "If only you had heeded the portents and signs! The code of rings, the message of the tower, the sign of fire in Odette's skin!'
Sophie in hospital says, "Haven't I gone far enough back now?" "It's not the direction you should be going in at all," a voice responds. (Odette's voice)
Who was the mystery person Sophie thought outside her window?
Sibyls, and what she scribbled on the three leaves.
Maria and her family emergency, typing on compugter and aunt.
Count Jacques d' Adelsward Fersen and the whole hint of homesexuality.
Agnes's strong reaction to roofies and date rape and her hating the Catholic nuns.
Tools gone missing from the site, strange stain on north courtyard wall, unlucky #17, Roman numerals rearranged Latin word "I lived" "I'm Dead"
Simon gave Dionysus's face his own features.
Iusta poor enslaved girl.
Maria dressed like the housekeepers
the Boat
The operative back in Sorrento
cards and game (it was never revealed other than my own theory what they were for and why those dates, why Ely sent them other than to let Sophie know he was present. But she already knew that when she spotted him a couple of times.)
I'm sure you all have some more and maybe you can show me where I missed how these tied in to something not making them red herrings.
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The biggest surprise for me was the bones were not Phineas or Iusta's in the cave. I didn't expect them to have survived. Also finding Iusta's confession in the statue. I was pleased that the book ended with Iusta's words. I sensed Phineas really cared for Iusta the night they slept together. As I stated, I like Phineas (Jonny Dep) with all his flaws. I was happy to see he and Iusta survived and her last words is the book were,
"How I was saved in the end by one fallible man's love. That is a story I can trust one day it might make its way back into the light, as I and my beloved were allowed to do, stumbling along a dark road, holding each other's hand."
Now that is a love story I can live with! The romantic in me got its perfect ending, happily ever after.......ahhhhhhhh
Kudos Carol, your are great!!!! Thank you for such an intriguing, infuriating, mysterious, informing and enjoyable book. ;)
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Bellamarie- you have done an admirable job of listing "red herrings."
Carol will be in shortly to answer many of these.
As I read and I "don't get it" I place a big question mark at the margin of the page.
One of them was answered at the end, which was "who cares about giving voice to Iust after two thousand years? Why is this important?"
I kept asking this over and over, it became a mantra with me Why, why , why? Imagine my delight in the ending of this novel!
"this is a story I can trust to no man or woman living, so I entrust it to the dark in the hope that one day it might make its way back into the light, as I and my beloved were allwowed to do, stumbling along a dark road, holding each other's hand.
she entrusted it to the DARK! Our night goddess. I loved it that the answer was given to me in Carol's final sentence. It truly bugged me that I couldn't wrap my head around the answer.
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Pat- about Stonehenge
I have a daughter who is deeply involved with energy medicine and just yesterday she was talking about "stones" and large rocks. the point that she was trying to make is the belief that these rocks hold the "energy" of times past. She claims that these massive rocks in our earth (not just Stonehenge) have a memory; an imprint, if you will, of everyone that has touched them. Have you ever heard of that? Beside Sedona I've never experienced that feeling when I touch a rock, boulder or a stone and I've always felt I was blessed with an intuitive soul.
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Thank you Andrea, I had a pad and pen next to me throughout the book and jotted down what I saw as clues, and chased myself in circles looking for connections. I was never so happy when someone (forgive me for not remembering who) mentioned the red herrings. I thought alas! I can now consider some of my things just that.. a red herring.
I think Iusta's confession was the perfect ending to this book. I was frustrated with Sophie from the beginning to the end, but for some reason I could accept Iusta's confession. Maybe had Carol ended Sophie with some form of growth and explanation, I would not have been so frustrated with her even to the very end. She and Elgin together...ahem, I don't think so. But Iusta and Phineas I can see that, it is believable, almost like fate or should I say, destiny?
"I entrust it to the dark"......don't we all do that at times? I can almost conjecture that its like when I pray and give it up to God, and place my trust in him doing with it what is best.
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AMENto that - BellaM. From hence forth, instead of saying I'm going to offer that up and let God take care of it, I shall say "I entrust it to the dark".
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Bellamarie said:
Maybe had Carol ended Sophie with some form of growth and explanation, I would not have been so frustrated with her even to the very end. She and Elgin together...ahem, I don't think so.
I wholeheartedly agree with you there Bellamarie. Sophie survived but I didn't see much if any real growth. As far as Sophie with Elgin, I can see them as a team in further adventures, but not as a love match.
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I have a couple of moot points here but why did Ely's father blame Ely for his mother's death? Was it because she worried about his cult activities? Was anybody surprised that he became the magos for the Tetraks?
OK, I admit it! I wanted Ely to come out ahead of the game here, not be the *#*&&^%$ dude that puts everyone else in danger. I hang my head in shame over his stupidity. I don't care if he did read Wodehouse or the Hardy Boys to his dying brother why did his his soul become as dark as his eyes? He kept "telling himself it was his duty, it was for a higher good."
Yeah right, he gets to that point and now - NOW- he's renouncing the Tetraktys? Isn't he switching his allegainces just a tad too conveniently from the T's to Catholicism? I guess Sophie's a better man that I would be by forgiving him. I couldn't do it, he has betrayed her.
BETRAYAL abounds. First we have a 2000 yr. old betrayal of Iusta against Phineas, in Herculeneum; Calatoria against Phineas;
enough for her shining little circle! then-Iusta against Calatoria and her rituals; A betrayal of Dale Henry, Agnes betrays Sophie, scanning the scrolls and sending them on to a Tetrakyts member and then betraying her underground in the pit, leaving her to rot in the depths of hell.
Ely betrays Sophie , times --too numerous to count. We even read of Demophoon, the Athenian prince who betrayed Phyllis.
Poor Sam thinks he's betrayed Agnes by initiating her into the cult early on.
Let's see did I miss any other betrayals? I hate betrayal.
I am a staunch loyalist. If I love someone or something I am loyal to a fault! Betrayal sickens me.
Enough of betrayal - truly I have the feeling I've missed something important in this betrayal thing. (help she shrieks.)
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Frybaby- I don't think Sophie is so hot for Elgin either. She's a victim of passion, isn't she? If the mood strikes her, well then, fine. If not, she moves on. Beware Elgin!
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Damn- the more I think of Sophie the more aggravated I get. What business did she have rock climbing? she was a novice, without the "know how." It didn't matter1 She lowered herself down thru the manhole anyway with the rope secured around her waist, fearful of snakes below. Nope, I don't think so.
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Andrea,
NOW- he's renouncing the Tetraktys? Isn't he switching his allegainces just a tad too conveniently from the T's to Catholicism? I guess Sophie's a better man that I would be by forgiving him. I couldn't do it, he has betrayed her.
ROFLMAO.....Maybe those nuns taking care of him scared the bejesus into him. :o :o :o(no disrespect intended) You know what nuns can do. lolololol Actually, I found Sophie forgiving him more for herself than for him. She can let it go now. When I am not able or willing to give forgiveness, its actually worse on me than probably the person because I carry it around in me like a huge rock. I feel so much better when I am able to forgive. Forget....now thats a different case. lololol
Yes, I think we put betrayal into the theme. I too hate betrayal. I, much like you, am loyal to a fault and get terribly upset when someone is disloyal.
As for Ely's father blaming him for his mother's death, maybe because Ely insisted they leave the bedroom the same all those years, not allowing her to move forward. Like Sophie said she could hear the mother cry each night in her bedroom. Ely was selfish to not realize he no longer lived there, he got to move on, his parents loved him so much they kept the room the same per his wishes. EGADS.....could you just imagine living every day after losing a loved one with the exact things the same as the day he died.
Andrea, Didn't they say Sophie went mountain climbing with M'lou so she has experience? I didn't especially like any of the decision making with all of the going down into the caves. I kept saying HUH???
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Why did Ely's father blame him for Ruth's death? Don't forget that for five years Ely kept silence and didn't contact anyone. After a few years of this total disappearance, a woman who had already lost her other child would get pretty desperate.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!---Joan R.
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Week IV: Finis!
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The climax of the mystery rites: the kneeling initiate uncovers a fertility symbol while the winged figure prepares to strike her.
Villa of the Mysteries, Pompeii
What a finish! What a movie this would make! Were you right? Did you get any of them right at all?
1. What was the biggest surprise for you in this ending full of surprises?
2. What is the climax?
3. Was there a parallel plot? If so who was Iusta?
4. Why did they move to the Hotel Convento?
5. Who sent the note Nemesis?
6. SO much to talk about! Tell us what you think!
7. Who left the scroll in the courtyard, originally? Remember that one? Why?
8. Odette has surfaced again. What part does she play in this book? Who does she represent?
9.Any book with a Magic 8 Ball in it is magic itself. Still got a lingering question? Click here and ask the (http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~ssanty/cgi-bin/eightball.cgi) (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/smallmagic8ball.jpg) a question!
10. What did you like best about this book? (Joan R)
11. I would love to talk about what we each saw as red herrings. What had YOU individually chasing a clue you finally gave up on, or realized in the end it was nothing more than either a what it represented, or indeed was a red herring? (Bellamarie)
12. Who is your favorite character? (Bellamarie)
13. Who is the Queen of the Underworld-- Iusta? (Andrea)
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/DemeterreturnPersephoneLeighton.jpg)
The Return of Persephone by Frederic Leighton(1830)–1896)
Demeter, to whom Iusta still prayed, receives her daughter Persephone at last.
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The Initiate is comforted
as the Bacchante begins her wild dance...
Villa of the Mysteries, Pompeii
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
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Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.
Thank you, Pat
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The people on the train: I see this as part of a building up to an oppressive emotional climax. Sophie has just gotten in from a long flight, with diminished lung capacity and fighting pneumonia. All the things that can go wrong for a tourist go wrong for her, but always in a way that calls for more physical effort, or make breathing harder. It's too hot, no air conditioning, she has a big schlep to get to Herculaneum, everything there is oppressive, a lot of minor stuff goes wrong, like the watch and the man with an erection, she gets back and can't swim or eat because of a private party, and collapses in the first stages of delerium from the pneumonia. By this time I could hardly breathe myself.
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Comment and request for Carol
I am an extremely food-oriented person, and I love your descriptions. I can't do much about the wonderful tomatoes and mozzarella, given the quality of fresh tomatoes here, but the pasta with eggplant and anchovies or sardines is possible. If you know of a recipe, I'd love to have it, but I found a couple of likely candidates, and the next time I see fresh sardines (chancy but possible here) I'll make it. So, sometime in the next month, if you feel like someone is toasting you, that will be me, raising my glass of crisp white wine to you as I start in on my delicious pasta.
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Excellent book, but if I were Elgin, I would turn and run. I think that Sophie simply cannot give up onEli.. No idea why, but he seems to be what she really wants.. as does Agnes of course. I hoped that both Agnes and Eli spend the rest of their years packed away in some jail.
Sam startled me.. He introduced Agnes to the cult.. How sad. Because he really does love her. Not that she cares.
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Steph,
Sam startled me.. He introduced Agnes to the cult.. How sad. Because he really does love her. Not that she cares.
I'm not so sure Sam's caring for Agnes was healthy. He seemed a bit over protective. Anyone brainwashed in that cult can't be trusted. I like your thinking of Agnes and Eli spending the rest of their lives in a jail. lolol
Run Elgin, run as fast as you can away for Sophie. lololol
PatH, All the things that can go wrong for a tourist go wrong for her
Perfect observation, that is how I felt while reading it at first, then I let my overactive mind take over. I was so darn frustrated with Sophie already, I just could NOT understand why she would have gone in the first place, in such poor health. I guess there would have been no story, if she stayed home. lolol
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You're right Pat, five years of silence from your only living child is a bit much to swallow. If I were Ely's father I probably would be hard pressed to forgive him as well.
Steph says:
Excellent book, but if I were Elgin, I would turn and run.
You've got that right! I too, would run like the wind. Poor Elgin at least he tried. Sophie finally replayed the moments under the table and realized that Elgin was only trying to help-- not hide. Wasn't he the first to realize that Agnes could have been a threat and admonished Sophie when she entered the tunnel with Agnes?
Elgin is QUITE concerned, is he not, when he realizes that Sophie will most probably go into the hospital to visit Ely? oops the green eyed monster just reared his ugly head again. ???
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Ginny- you are a riot with your magic eight ball. I have asked it two questions already and have r/c a MAYBE!
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Odette has surfaced again. What part does she play in this book? Who does she represent?
I see Odette as a spirit guide for Sophie. They were friends and by the short intro the narrator gave us with the two of them in the boardroom before the shootings, they seemed to have a warm, friendly repore. Odette is like a guardian angel. I'm sure you all have had a loved one pass on, and you seem to talk with at times. I could relate to Odette's voice there to help Sophie. I sort of wondered why not Sophie's mother's voice be the saving grace?
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Andrea, I clicked answer on the 8 ball, without typing in a question, and it said definetly and maybe. So its a hoax. As if we didn't know. ;D In Junior High my friends and I played the Quigi board. She didn't like I was dating her ex boyfriend so she asked who would I marry. It spelled out REINHART a not so cute guy's name in our class. She got a good laugh out of that.
Guess who I married.....NOT the not so cute guy Dale Reinhart in our class but ............
Joe Reinhart, a guy that lived in a neighboring state. We met by chance at a night club after I moved out of my parents house after I graduated High School, and he had just gotten out of the Air Force. lol We got a good laugh out of that!
Dooooo Doooo Doooooo Doooooo
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What fanstastic points. I really have enjoyed this discussion, your comments, and the book. What fun it's been!
Lyros was not the bad guy, so why did they move to the Hotel Convento? That surprised me.
Andrea good point on Ely's dark eyes and soul.
I keep thinking about the plot and the climax. I guess you could say the climax of the main plot (Sophie's) was ....when two heads appeared over the hole? Ely and Agnes?
Or was it when Agnes entwined herself around Ely (remember the painting Andrea put in here? Just like that?) under the water and they were brought out?
For Iusta the climax had to be when...I get dicey on the climax part, she went back for Phineas, do you think?
Pat I loved that post on food. Ever since we started this I have thought of tomatoes and cheese but my stuff NEVER begins to taste like it does in Italy. I wonder what I'm doing wrong.
I think I'll tackle #10 in the heading (am so enjoying the Ball hahahaa, you know if you turn it without a question in your own hands it answers, Bella, that's the magic, it's answering what you really are mentally thinking) hahahaa 'Fess up, you were thinking I wonder if it will answer if I don't put in a question! hahaha
Andrea I have yet to "feel " Sodona. I've been there but missed what others go for apparently, but it's very pretty, but I have to admit some of the ancient Roman stones do seem to speak.
Yes we may need to see what happens to Elgin and Sophie, sequel?
Great red herrings, Bella!
Joan G and Bella saw thru Agnes immediately, I never did. hahaa Never saw it coming.
You know when I began to see it coming? When Sophie climbed down in the hole and Agnes said leave your bag up here (containing her walkie talkies and/ or phone).. I would have not had the walkie talkie IN the bag (and it's a good thing Sophie didn't, for Agnes's sake) but on my person. THAT set off my alarm bells.
I like #10 for today, our last days here, what did you like most? I loved the creative ingenuity: the puzzles. Puzzles everywhere, at every turn: kept me guessing just like Sophie, the entire time. I enjoyed the super background information, so cleverly tied in to the plot. I assure you that Iusta Petronia is not on the lips of every classics major you meet, I loved the mingling of myth and real history, the creation of something new.
Very clever, but still with a base in real history, loved that, and I enjoyed learning about the ways that they can now read papyrus. If you haven't gotten hold of the Deiss, do try.
They really need to make a movie of this, I wonder why they have not, I'll ask one last question. Loved the discussion.
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Carol: this would make a fantastic movie. I'm surprised nobody has optioned it. Are there any plans for the future to put it on the screen?
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What did you like best about this book?
Besides the great discussion we had as a group, and having you all in my living room with the dust bunnies hanging from the ceiling and you not minding I was in my pjs some of the time.......I must say I liked learning all about the mythology and the classic Ovid's Metamorphoses. Had it not been for this book I may have never known what a brilliant Epistle it is. I loved the mystery, although I got very frustrated at times. My favorite character was......Phineas! He was such a rogue, yet ends up being a hero. I surprised myself because I ended up liking Iusta in spite of her being involved in the rites and stealing the scrolls. I loved reading her confession as the last words of the book. I think Phineas was drawn to her because of seeing her inner soul.
The part that has stayed with me the most throughout this book was when Sophie and Elgin were approaching the sirens and the way Carol described the entire setting and characters at that moment. It has lingered in my mind with such a serene feeling. Maybe that's when I fell for Elgin, maybe that's the one and only time I could get a glimpse of Sophie's unguarded emotions.
pg. 112
"We're taking you to the island," he said. "We can take care of you better there." "As long as you promise not to let me forget to breathe or sink to the bottom of the river," I say. This makes him laugh. He leans down close to me and I see his eyes are the same blue as the sky. He takes my hand and squeezes it. "I promise I'll remind you to breathe. And I won't let you sink. I'm going to hold on to you the whole way." "And he does. It's a long boat trip, but he holds my hand the whole way and every time I feel like I'm falling he squeezes my hand and says, "Hold on." So I do. When I open my eyes I see an immense tower of rock above me climbing from the sea to the sky. Swallows are looping through the bright air. Houses so white they look like they've been carved out of sugar cling to the steep slopes. The air is so sweet that no one could ever forget to breathe here. We've come, I think, to the island of the sirens.
It's like in the Jerry Maguire movie with Tom Cruise and Rene Zelwiger, "You had me at hello."
(too bad Sophie couldn't appreciate him.)
Yes, Ginny, I confess....I was thinking, " Will this silly 8 ball answer, even if I don't type a question?" You little sneak. lol
I agree, I think this would make a great movie. It has all the elements of an academy award. It really did remind me of the
Da vinci Code. Someone mentined Merly Streep as Sophie, I sense Sophie was a bit younger than Merly could pull off. Meryl plays strong women and Sophie was a bit too weak. Julia Roberts in "Sleeping With the Enemy" is truly Sophie.
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Excellent question, Bellamarie: who is your favorite character? Good one!
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Thank you, Ginny. (blushing) I thought Phineas dropped the scroll in the
courtyard when he was rushing to get out. Or am I in the wrong half of the
story? (Darn, there goes my 'brilliant' rating.)
Now see, I didn't know Agnes had been in the cult until the end. I must
have missed something earlier on.
BELLAMARIE, on the subject of forgiveness, you are right on. It is always
a release for the forgiver. It is a release for the forgiven only if they
acknowledge the need for it and want it. That's up to them. STEPH, I think
this is the point at which Sophie truly was free from Eli.
PATH, I think you explanation is most likely correct. This poor woman had
simply suffered too much. The reason for the incident on the train makes very
good sense, also. You've got your thinking cap on today, girl!
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My only regret throughout this story was that I did not take enough time to parallel our characters with the mythological aspect.
Was Sophie Persophone? Could Agnes, the embittered one, be Demeter, the lonely,vengeful one?
I lost track of who I wanted to pair whom with here.
Who should be the Iron Maiden? the Queen of the Underworld-- Iusta?
Oh well, we've come full circle and will await Carol's response today.
Bella- you cheated- harumphhh you didn't even ASk the stupid 8 ball a question you merely thought it- NOT FAIR!
Greeat job Ginny with the plot, climax, ending points. The climax always ends up in the pit doesn't it? ::)
Iusta's fleeing and then her return for Phineas and Agnes'es / ely's betrayal.(I don't like him now, so I am not even going to Capitalize the E)
Babi- you didn't miss anything with Agnes. There was nothing said about that until the end, just a few innuendos.
OK ladies, I will give you the "forgiven" thing; honestly I have been there - done that as well, just not with as much finesse as Sophie used. :D
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No, I can't give my thoughts about the book because they are too negative, but I enjoyed reading the discussion a lot. You are all so interesting and you reveal yourselves so candidly.
The author can, at the drop of a hat, turn every character around and portray them as totally different where villains become heroes and heroes villains. The plot is so unbelievable that I lost interest right from the start. Am I living in Alice in Wonderland or what?
But in all this, the Italian setting was marvelous, the mythology, the history and references to the classics very enjoyable and the graphics are just lovely, thank you for that.
Still I am sorry that the discussion is coming to an end. You are all so much fun.
Thank you Ginny and Andy for your dedication, you are wonderful hosts.
Ginny I hope your fracture is healing well, you don't mention it though but I can visualize you with your leg up working at the computer never complaining. Get well my friend.
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Oh Madame Eloise, you are so sweet. I have missed you in our discussion here. You always manage to add so much depth into your thoughts and your posts. I hope that you are well and I will soon see you around the boards in another choice discussion.
Hugs to you, mon amie.
I am in, let us all go to Italy. Who's in????
oops, We have to wait until next year until our "leader" can maneuver herself around enough to climb in and out of those pits we will be checking out in Herculeneum.
Ginny, don't worry, I will hold your back pack, your flash light and your walkie talkie.
YOU CAN TRUST ME! :o
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Andrea, "Ginny, don't worry, I will hold your back pack, your flash light and your walkie talkie.
YOU CAN TRUST ME![/b]
This coming from someone who said, "Babi- you didn't miss anything with Agnes. There was nothing said about that until the end, just a few innuendos."
Run, Ginny, Run........she couldn't even spot an evil one from the start!...ROFLMAO ;D ;D ;D
I'm not ready to give thanks and good byes just yet, so I will say,
Ciao for now....................................
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Eloise,
No, I can't give my thoughts about the book because they are too negative, but I enjoyed reading the discussion a lot. You are all so interesting and you reveal yourselves so candidly.
This morning I was getting my book ready to return to the library and realized I had not read anything in the back of the book, the section "A Regional Muse", "A Conversation With Carol Goodman", or the "Reader's Group Questions and Topics for Discussion"
Elosie you might like to know the book "Eloise" was Carol's inspriration to begin her writing. How sweet. Thank you for your candor. That's what makes the discussion so interesting and fun and sometimes a bit lively, we all say what we think and feel without hesitation, but with much respect for the author and the group.
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So, I'm wondering just what kind of scholars Sophie and Elgin really are - FIRST Sophie secretly finds and tucks away a scroll and then in the dead of night gets Agnes to help her decipher it THEN Sophie and Elgin start messing with the statuette in the chapel - remove the sealing wax with a Swiss army knife, unroll the papyrus there and then and start reading even though every second is destroying the scroll.
Will someone please tell me how Elgin and Sophie will explain all THAT to the Papyrus Police ? ;D It destroyed their credibility but made for a great ending to their story.
My favourite character was a minor one though an important one - Odette. I loved her positive down to earth, non nonsense, call a spade a spade approach. Her attitude was in strong contrast to Sophie who gave everyone the benefit of the doubt except for Elgin. Apart from Aunt M'Lou, it seems that Odette was Sophie's only friend - she's the one who knows Sophie well - Odette knew about the affair with Elgin so Sophie must have confided in her. I guess it was all those mornings swimming laps and exchanging talk in the locker room.
For me the mystery was a means to an end - I was mostly interested in the classical background, the history and mythology encountered along the way, the peripheral reading I immersed myself in (including the David Sider book - read from cover to cover - and a fresh look at Ovid through the Ted Hughes version which is very readable). I liked pondering on the Pythagorean math and golden verses.
I enjoyed the food references and am still munching on rich red Baby Roma tomatoes - for lunch today I had them thinly sliced on thin crispy toast with a sliver of ham and a couple of fat, juicy olives...m'mmm.
ALF asks: who was Queen of the Underworld - for me that was Calatoria - the scene where she appears covered with blood and with her clothing in disarray and then topples to her doom was very fitting.
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Gumtree,
I enjoyed the food references and am still munching on rich red Baby Roma tomatoes - for lunch today I had them thinly sliced on thin crispy toast with a sliver of ham and a couple of fat, juicy olives...m'mmm.
OH MY GOSH I AM STARVING and that sound sooooooo good! Off I go for lunch.
I agree Gumtree, Calatoria is a perfect pick for the Queen of the Underworld.
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Gumtree-
ALF asks: who was Queen of the Underworld - for me that was Calatoria - the scene where she appears covered with blood and with her clothing in disarray and then topples to her doom was very fitting.
She was quite the Queen, was she not, standing in her circle of 12 other beauties, around the goddess of night with her hair wreathed in poppies, "the flower of sleep and forgetting." I will never look at a poppy again without thinking what this flower means.
I had forgeotten this but here it is:
"I noticed, as I had not when Iusta turned the stone, that when the lid was in the right position a series of trianges were formed by the dots on the interior circle and the exterior rim. I saw then that beneath their veils the women wore painted DOTS shaped like triangles upon their foreheads." One of Queen Calatoria's mysteries.
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I really enjoyed this last section of the book. It seemed a much more relaxing read, even though my blood pressure went up when Sophie decided to enlist Agnes as her confidante. I would not have suspected Agnes of anything, but after some of you thought she was suspicious..well, I did too.
Carol Goodman is a very clever writer. Right up to the end there were twists and turns...and Phineas and Justa...wow, I loved the ending. If this were non fiction I would be upset that Sophie and Elgin ruined a scroll.
When I picked up The Night Villa and The Seduction of Water, the head librarian said she likes Carol Goodman's writing. I will probably have to arm wrestle her for the next one. Hope Night Villa will be made into a movie.
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I have had tomatoes and cheese all over Italy and the key there is fresh.. Fresh mozzarella, fresh hand ripe tomatoes.. Yum..yum.. One of the great Italian things to eat.
Favorite character..hmm. I think maybe Elgin. I see now how hard he tried to keep Sophy safe and how much he cared for her. She was the one who retreated..
Ginny and Alf.. You have done a spectacular job. In the end, I loved the book.. have found one more Carol Goodman at the used book store and it is now in the long row of to be read immediately books.. Sigh..
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Steph, How is the trip? Are you back home now? Have all of you ladies traveled to Italy, and I am the only one who has not? How lucky for those who have. I am Italian and long to see my ancestor's homeland one day. One can only wish. :)
Sandyrose, I really enjoyed this last section of the book. It seemed a much more relaxing read, even though my blood pressure went up when Sophie decided to enlist Agnes as her confidante.,
I felt the same way, the last section was so much more relaxing to read, even with all the things happening. For me it just kept revealing all my suspicions and theories, I was so excited. Iusta and Phineas surviving was my only surprise. I loved Iusta's confession being the last words of the book. How perfect!
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QUESTION FOR CAROL
Most versions of the so-called 'Golden Verses' contain in excess of 40 adages which may be interpreted by adherents as precepts for living.
What led you to choose to use only the three questions a Tetraktys member must ask himself each night:
Where did I go wrong today?
What did I accomplish?
What obligation did I not perform?
in preference to one or more of the more positive precepts.
These were the ones that spoke most forcefully to me. They actually seemed like a pretty good way of summing up one's day. I guess I've always had a lot of guilt--chalk it up to a half Jewish/half Irish Catholic background--and the idea of asking yourself these three basic questions seemed very powerful. I quickly saw how I could use them in the book.
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Question for Carol
When Sophie studies the Smorfia tiles looking for patterns that meant something to Ely, as narrator she says: I remember he liked the Fibonacci Sequence, prime numbers, the digits of pi, and palindromic numbers ...
As 'the digits of pi' are devoid of pattern why are they included in this list of sequences in which patterns do occur? The inclusion of prime numbers is also somewhat of a puzzle as there is no formula for evaluating the sequence of the prime numbers. Therefore, what pattern could Ely have found in them?
I think I meant to suggest that these numbers meant something to Ely. He found patterns where other people might not find any. That could be a gift ... or it could be a psychological problem.
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Now that's we've finished, may I ask what the FBI is doing in Italy. It makes no sense, as to the best of my understanding, the FBI looks at so-called Domestic crimes, and other agencies are more or less looking at foreign crimes.
Obviously Sophie would survive ... sorry, Carol Goodman, you didn't make me tremble when it looked like Sophie would be buried alive ... she had to live to the end of the book. How could the book conclude without Sophie? I still think Meryl Streep would be the best actress for the part when this is made into a movie. Any nibbles from Hollywood, Carol?
I always thought Ely was no good, and Marie was just a red-herring character.
Thanks, Deems, for that red herring explanation, which I kind of recalled from Trollope's hunting scenes.
Agnes as the "bad guy" is confusing to me ... did we have enough hints? ???
Hm ... I'll have to look back in my notes, but I think I figured that the FBI, although they wouldn't have jurisdiction in Italy, might still be able to do surveillance on an organization they were following in the United States. And, as it turns out, Ely was lying about his involvement with the FBI in Italy.
I thought there were plenty of hints that Agnes was a bit unhinged from her first appearance. Sophie comments on her odd fascination with ancient cults, for instance, and her low self esteem.
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I didn't think Sophie would have to live to the end, at all? (And as previously noted, the events of the end scared me to death hhahaa) Had to actually put it down and get up in the sun and finish it.
Why couldn't she have died and the coda have been written by Elgin?
OR even better, by Odette! I need to put Odette back in the questions, what was she doing there? Who IS she, actually?
Even Holmes died (and was resurrected later because of Doyle's Mother's missing him).
Ginny,
I've read a few books where the narrator did die. The best treatment of that (spoiler alert!!!!) is Susanna Moore's book THE CUT. But it's true that we're probably expecting the narrator to live and there's not much we can do about that.
____________
That makes me want to ask Carol two more questions:
1. Is Sophie going to have a sequel?
2. Who dropped the scroll in the courtyard originally, when, and why?
And a hearty thanks, as well, to Carol, for your generosity to us, and for really writing a heck of a book, I loved it right to the end, it was perfect for our discussion.
Ginny,
No sequel planned. I think Sophie's been through enough. She needs to go back to Texas and kick back with a couple of Shiner Bocks at Las Manitas.
Didn't I have Phineas drop it?
It's been my pleasure to participate. You guys are thorough readers!
___________________
Babi that's brilliant on the ghost!!
___________________
What did you all like the best about the book? That's Joan R's question, will put it in the heading also.
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Carol,
I thought there were plenty of hints that Agnes was a bit unhinged from her first appearance. Sophie comments on her odd fascination with ancient cults, for instance, and her low self esteem.
I thought you did a great job of dropping the clues on Agnes early on. I picked up on her in the first pages, especially when she had the dark circles under her eyes when Sophie visited her at the dorm, and saw the picture of her on the wall and she was much thinner.
Carol, I am so excited you are finally here to give us all the answers. We are honored to have an author take the time to share with us in our discussion group. Thank you so very much!! :)
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The following question had to be removed from the heading when it changed so am posting it here where Carol can see it:
From Gumtree:
At the beginning of Chapter 9 there is an episode when Sophie is on the train and a young girl and a man with an accordion get on. When they leave Sophie asks herself "What was that all about?" and then discovers her watch has been stolen by the child.
Like Sophie, I'm asking myself What was that all about? Why is this passage in the novel? What is the purpose or meaning of this incident other than Sophie is now bereft of her watch? Is it just for local colour - to indicate time passing as Sophie waits for the train to move on - or did I miss something?
Gumtree,
Aside from providing local color--and a fair warning to tourists to the Naples area to watch out for pickpockets--I saw that scene as a mini "Mystery" rite. It was meant to mysterious and stagey (it is staged), and it also contains some of the elements of a mystery rite--a child playing a role, the corruption of innocence, an enigmatic figure playing a musical instrument. I experienced part of the scene myself on the Circumvesuviana--the child, the accordian player, the irate woman who may or may not have been the child's mother. Luckily, I didn't have my watch stolen, though.
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Carol,
No sequel planned. I think Sophie's been through enough. She needs to go back to Texas and kick back with a couple of Shiner Bocks at Las Manitas.
ROFLMAO..... How about a movie of Night Villa instead?
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The following excellent questions were received in email so am posting them here so Carol can see them.
From bellamarie:
1. Carol, while reading all our posts and how we were researching and tying clues together, did you see where we missed some things that would have given us more insight to what the ending would be?
I think you were all very astute readers.
2. Did you feel at any time when we were posting our likes or dislikes or indifference about Sophie's character that you could understand where we were coming from?
Sophie's not perfect. I can never predict how any reader will respond to any character. I'm just happy if you keep reading.
3. Was it your intent to have Sophie seem strong physically and yet weak emotionally because of her losses? Is this athletic Sophie YOU, Carol?
I tend to write characters who, like myself and the people I know, have many strengths and weaknesses. Oh, no, I'm not so very athletic. I do have asthma, and so can relate to Sophie's breathlessness.
4.. When you said in your interview this book would make people see religions in a different way, is it because of the cult mentality of the Tetraktys and their behaviors or did you feel with the Pythagorean theory, Sibyls, fortune tellers and the mythological practices along with the mention of the fanatical Catholic upbringing of Sophie and Agnes's fear of the nuns this all would give reason to ponder?
Gosh, did I say that? I suppose I might have. I did find that in doing the research for the book I saw the beginnings of Christianity differently. I hadn't realized there had been so many different versions of Christianity in the beginning. Also, I think it's easy to forget when looking at a modern cult that Christianity once had the status of a foreign cult. As for the last part--I tried to include a sympathetic nun in the book. The one who leads Sophie by the hand. She's based on an experience I had in the Naples hospital when I was a student and my roommate fell ill in Naples. When we were leaving, a nun took me by the hand and led me to the food pantry and loaded up our backpacks with cheese and bread--all without ever saying a word. She must have thought my roommate and I were starving!
5. Since the scrolls were the essential story plot from beginning to end, would it be fair to assess ultimately, the theme of the book was about the keys to possessing "The Power" overall? (the trident in Little Mermaid and Poseidon, the scrolls for the church/ cult/Iusta/Phineas/Calotoria, and the answers to Sophie for her book and possibly her finding closure)
Hm ... not sure what you mean. For me the key in any novel I write is for the narrator to find some closure to whatever experience is keeping her from moving on with her life--in this case, Sophie's unresolved grief over the dissolution of her marriage with Ely.
6. Why the mention of the Little Mermaid quilt on Agnes's bed and Sophie going to the mermaid shows? Were those clues dropped along the way or did I read more into it than what you intended?
Well, originally The Little Mermaid quilt is there because my step-daughter Nora had one. Then I liked the idea of playing with the Siren/Mermaid theme. Just a reminder that myth is all around us. I saw the mermaid show and Ralph the diving pig at Aquarena Springs when I first moved to Texas. I would put them in every book I wrote if my editor would let me.
7. I was a little taken with Sophie going to the church in the end since she so strongly disliked the fanatical Catholic religion growing up. Are we to believe Sophie had a change of heart with her Catholic faith in then end, or was that just a way for her to find the statue and Iusta's confession?
I think there is good and bad in Catholicism, as in any faith. (See good nun story above.)
6. Was the saying, "many are the narthex bearers, but few are the Bacchoi." to represent anything in particular? Was it a clue in some way? I really didn't tie it into anything other than Noah's Ark and the survivors of the volcano.
It's supposed to indicate the idea of being chosen. Ely and Agnes would believe that they are the chosen.
7. How did you decide to have Odette's voice become the voice to help save Sophie in the end? Was Odette's voice Sophie's own subconscious voice helping her when her conscious was not clear enough to think it through? I was a bit troubled a with Odette's voice being the saving grace here, but then as a Christian believer there have been times my mother or other loved ones who have passed away have given me direction and insight to help me in situations by hearing their voices spiritually so I decided to be okay with Odette's voice helping Sophie escape.
I really liked the character of Odette and was sorry to have lost her in the early pages of the book. I liked the idea of having her come back. As to whether her voice is in Sophie's head or real ... that will have to remain a mystery.
8. Did you enjoy reading our posts, and at any time did we offend you with any of our comments? If so I apologize in advance.
Yes, I did enjoy reading your posts! No, I wasn't offended by any of them. I realize that every reader's experience of the book will be different. I'm happy if the reader is engaged enough to keep reading. I may not be as tough as Sophie in all ways, but I'm certainly tough enough to take a little criticism. Thank you for asking, though!
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Carol: this would make a fantastic movie. I'm surprised nobody has optioned it. Are there any plans for the future to put it on the screen?
No, but if you happen to sit next to a famous movie director on a plane, please do pass the book along to him or her. (Ditto for Oprah.)
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Carol,
No, but if you happen to sit next to a famous movie director on a plane, please do pass the book along to him or her. (Ditto for Oprah.)
ROFLMOA....we sure will keep you in mind if we ever have the opportunity to further Night Villa.
Thank you sooooo much for answering all of our questions. It is so wonderful to know your thoughts and reasons as you wrote this wonderful book. Much success to you in your future endeavors.
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Carol,
Thanks for answering the questions.
I want to read another of your books. I am trying to decide which one I think I will try next. They all look interesting.
Joan Grimes
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Carol,
For me the key in any novel I write is for the narrator to find some closure to whatever experience is keeping her from moving on with her life--in this case, Sophie's unresolved grief over the dissolution of her marriage with Ely.
AHA!!! Found this interesting, Sophie and Ely were married! No where, did it say they were actually married or went through a dissolutionment. I remember it was pointed out to me they were NOT married, when I assumed they were married, and in turn I corrected someone later when they mentioned them being married. ;)
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I really appreciated those answers to our questons, CAROL. I liked Odette
from the first and hated that she was one of those killed early on, so I was
happy to see her continuing to be with us 'in the spirit'.
On the narthex bearers and the bacchoi, I was pleased to read your answer:It's supposed to indicate the idea of being chosen. Ely and Agnes would believe that they are the chosen
When I first read that line, I thought
of the scripture, "Many are called, but few are chosen." It seems that was the
correct reaction.
I also had to smile at your comment about being 'half-Jewish, half Irish Catholic'. Both do lean rather heavily on guilt, don't they? :)
Thank you so much, both for an intriguing book and your kind participation.
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Carol Goodman ~ What a great book! I'm glad none of my comments were too critical for you. Thanks for answering so many questions!
I think we all wish you the best of luck on selling this story to Hollywood for large $$$ :D
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Babi,
"Many are called, but few are chosen."
When I first read "Many are the narthex bearers, few are the Bacchoi"" I thought about Noah's Ark and how only so few were chosen to go on to begin anew. I suppose in this book we could also see only few who survived the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius, Iusta and Phineas among the few. It also brought to mind how Jesus chose certain ones to follow him to spread the word.
We are so fortnate to have Carol come in and give us so much insight to her writing the book. How very exciting!
I am Irish/Italian Cathoic, Mea Culpa is part of my life's vocabulary. lolol
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!---Joan R.
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Week IV: Finis!
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The climax of the mystery rites: the kneeling initiate uncovers a fertility symbol while the winged figure prepares to strike her.
Villa of the Mysteries, Pompeii
What a finish! What a movie this would make! Were you right? Did you get any of them right at all?
1. What was the biggest surprise for you in this ending full of surprises?
2. What is the climax?
3. Was there a parallel plot? If so who was Iusta?
4. Why did they move to the Hotel Convento?
5. Who sent the note Nemesis?
6. SO much to talk about! Tell us what you think!
7. Who left the scroll in the courtyard, originally? Remember that one? Why?
8. Odette has surfaced again. What part does she play in this book? Who does she represent?
9.Any book with a Magic 8 Ball in it is magic itself. Still got a lingering question? Click here and ask the (http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~ssanty/cgi-bin/eightball.cgi) (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/smallmagic8ball.jpg) a question!
10. What did you like best about this book? (Joan R)
11. I would love to talk about what we each saw as red herrings. What had YOU individually chasing a clue you finally gave up on, or realized in the end it was nothing more than either a what it represented, or indeed was a red herring? (Bellamarie)
12. Who is your favorite character? (Bellamarie)
13. Who is the Queen of the Underworld-- Iusta? (Andrea)
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The Return of Persephone by Frederic Leighton(1830)–1896)
Demeter, to whom Iusta still prayed, receives her daughter Persephone at last.
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The Initiate is comforted
as the Bacchante begins her wild dance...
Villa of the Mysteries, Pompeii
| --- | Interesting Links
NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/carolgoodmaninterview.htm)
Carol Goodman Homepage (http://www.carolgoodman.com/)
The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri (http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html)
Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman%20Mystery%20Religions)
Cult (submitted by Marcie) (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Cult)
Real or Fictional ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/papyrireal.fiction.html)
Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html)
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Discussion Leaders: Andrea (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM) & Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.
I agree, I think Carol is one of a kind, and I also appreciated her wonderful answers here, which we will make into an Interview and post it on our new website with grateful thanks.
THIS has been THE most wonderful exhilarating discussion! All due to your great conversation and a book which could stand up to close scrutiny. THANK you for your great points of view and your great responding to each other, you're all the perfect co hosts. I appreciated also your willingness to wait, and in some cases, read along, so that the suspense was able to be maintained, that takes a special reader, many many thanks.
It was a wonderful experience, loved every minute of it.
Eloise, thank you, leg is fine, I appreciate that.
I also need to thank our co leader, Andrea, who I will never do another discussion without: you are the best, Nurse Ratchett!
Carol, I don't even have any words to thank you for your incredible generosity both in meeting with us and answering all our questions, and thank you for writing such a great book, I have loved every second of the entire experience. If I could frame this entire experience, I would, and hang it on the wall.
I personally hope that once Sophie has sat a while in the sun with her Shiner Bocks she will be called into action once more, like Poirot perhaps, there's a LOT more out there for her to solve!
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I just finished reading 'The Night Villa' which I enjoyed very much and will certainly look out for more books by Carol Goodman. But I was really disappointed in the end of chapter 32 where they found the scroll in the little statue, I know coincidences happen but this to my mind was very unreal and nearly spoiled the book!! Did no one else feel the same?
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I'm so sorry to hear about your leg, Ginny! That's awful.
I did just want to say a thank you to everyone who read the book and joined in the discussion here. It's been wonderful reading your comments. Writing can be a lonely occupation, and hearing all your voices has certainly livened up my days these last few weeks. Thank you all so much.
I also noticed that there was a question about Italian recipes in one of the posts and I remembered that around the time I wrote the book I also discovered Giada De Laurentis on the Food Network (there's a special in which she travels to Capri) and fell in love with her Everyday Italian recipes, which you can find on the Food Network site or in her books. It's true that it's hard to duplicate the quality of the tomatoes, but if you have access to some fresh mozzarella and good olive oil you can come up with a reasonable facsimile (ummm ... now I'm hungry for Italian food).
Happy reading and good eating to all of you.
Valete,
Carol Goodman
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Thank you, Carol, I appreciate that, on the leg, and everything else.
I had the pleasure last Tuesday of seeing a group of my face to face Latin students with whom I went to lunch exchanging a familiar looking title across the table with "You'll love it." hahaaa
I will look up Giada's recipes, too, I wonder if she has one for salmon, have been looking for the way they fix it for years. There's a little restaurant in Venice near the train station which does it incredibly, I have no idea how, I certainly can't reproduce it.
NancyMc, no I didn't have a problem with the message in the statue, I liked it.
On a personal note: when we started planning this discussion, I didn't realize that I would have to cancel my trip to Italy this year (leg) but the discussion has been a pleasure and in some ways a vicarious trip: it's been about as good AS a trip, and I have enjoyed it tremendously. Who knows, maybe the Villa dei Papiri will be open next year!
Thank you all for a fabulous time!
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Ginny : It has been a fabulous time. Such a great discussion - so many points of view and red herrings. Loved it.
Special thanks to CAROL GOODMAN for visiting, answering questions and taking our well meant banter in good part.
Thanks to all the posters here who offered so much information and added enormously to my understanding of the novel.
Special thanks to ALF for helping to host the discussion - it can't be easy with so many differing viewpoints to deal with -I'm amazed you still have your sanity.... ;)
As for you Ginny - the discussion seems a poor recompense for your broken leg and missing your trip - but I'm glad you feel that way...what would we do without you.
Thank you.
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Carol- once again it has been such a pleasure visiting with you, like we did in NY city, last September.
Please tell us about your book that will come out in 2010. You said the setting was in upper NY state, and I have to ask -- is it in the Saratoga and the "Yadoo" venue?
When we met you I knew you could hold your own here and you've shown us what a good writer and reader can be.
Gum-
Special thanks to ALF for helping to host the discussion - it can't be easy with so many differing viewpoints to deal with -I'm amazed you still have your sanity....
That is very kind of you to say that but I must confess I DO NOT HAVE MY SANITY! That, dear friends, has been long gone. Ginny can attest to that fact as she's known me for 10 years.
I can't say when I've enjoyed a discussion more, can you Ginny? It has been educational, inspirational and fun.
It was such a pleasure meeting and getting to know many of you better and to greet my "old firends" once again.
You are all wonderful and I look forward to sharing another story with you around our "table", dust bunnies and all BellaM. 8)
Nancymc- you must have been hiding in the shadows. ::)
Don't be shy, we love to have a ton of ideas, thoughts and opinions to share here at SeniorLearn. I hope to see you soon in another one of our discussions.
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Thank you Gum From Australia, and Nancy from Ireland!
No I've never enjoyed a book discussion more, it was FUN! As Andrea has said, It has been educational, inspirational and fun.
Thanks to you all!
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Nancymc,
But I was really disappointed in the end of chapter 32 where they found the scroll in the little statue, I know coincidences happen but this to my mind was very unreal and nearly spoiled the book!! Did no one else feel the same?
Not me, I was thrilled the book ended with Iusta's confession. I really thought it fitting Sophie and Elgin find it, afterall they are the two who decided to begin this project in the first place.
Well, it seems we've cleaned up the dishes, hung up the towels, put on our coats and are giving out our hugs, thank yous and good byes. I will miss this discussion. I really don't think I have ever had as much fun.
Ginny, your questions in the headings, your visuals, your knowledge and challenges to look further into things is just pure.......hmmm what's that word???? Oh yes, "MAGIC". You said this book was magical, I have to say this entire discussion was magical for me. Learning about Pythagora, Plato, Poseidon, Iusta, Italy, Myths etc. is something I will have to treasure. I can not express how much it has meant to me. I hope your leg is healed soon, and you will have your trip to Italy. We are hardly a substitute for the real thing, but thank you for graciouisly saying it.
Andy, I can't tell you how many times you made me laugh out loud. You are the perfect compliment to our dear Ginny, in keeping the discussion lively and flowing. Thank you so very much for all your insights. You really did keep me on my feet. I hope your plane ride home is much smoother than it was going.
Carol, What can I say that everyone has not already said? Thank you does not seem enough for the gift you gave us in having you present in our discussion. This book is definetly an Oscar Award winner! I guess the biggest compliment I can give to you is to tell you today I began reading your book The Seduction of Water.
To all of you fantastic group members, I say KUDOS, between all of you we cracked this mystery and enjoyed this magnificent book! Since I am sure I will see you all around in the future book discussions, I will say,
Ciao for now....................
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Even though the FBI is supposed to be only in the U
S, you will find them in a number of places all over the world. Have a friend with a son in the FBI. He spent a year in Iraq training policemen there.. So yes the FBI could be in Italy especially if they are keeping a close eye on the cult.
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Thank you, Carol, for a wonderful book and thanks to Ginny and Alf for a great discussion!!
I enjoyed the classical background enormously and Carol has a magic way with atmosphere. You are right there! I like the way the story ended - just right.
At the end, I suppose Sophie and Elgin should not have opened the scroll they found in the statue when they did,but Sophie had been so involved with and driven by the story of Iusta that she couldn't help it. Just as the spirit of Odette came to her aid, the shade of Iusta was pushing her!
I met Pedln in NYC yesterday - went to the Strand where we poked about for quite a long time - among other things, I bought Carol's "The Sonnet Lover". Started reading it on the train home - oh, I like it! Let's have another discussion of one of her books sometime Perhaps of the new one coming out next spring?
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Sounds good to me JoanR. I like Carol's writing style very much. My next Goodman read is probably going to be The Drowning Tree.
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My next one will be Lake of Dead Languages and THEN The Sonnet Lover
I've already read The Seduction of Water - Bellamarie will love that one.
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Just for fun: Here's a casting list for the Night Villa movie using Aussie and Kiwi actors - you'll know most of them.
Elgin - Who but Hugh Jackman though we'd have to lighten his colouring
Sophie - Rachel Griffiths would be perfect -she's from Hilary & Jackie
Agnes - Nicole Kidman
Lyros - Hugo Weaving - he can be made up into anyone
Ely - Guy Pearce - he can do the haunted look
Iusta - Cate Blanchette
Phineas - Sam Neill - he's just so accomplished
Calatoria - Judy Davis - brilliant actress
Simon - Russell Crowe - a cameo role for him as the salacious satyr
The film would be costly to make as they all command huge salaries.
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Cute Gumtree, I like your Aussie cast.
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Andrea asked me: Please tell us about your book that will come out in 2010. You said the setting was in upper NY state, and I have to ask -- is it in the Saratoga and the "Yadoo" venue?
My next book, ARCADIA FALLS, is set in upstate New York, not far from Saratoga. The venue is another artists colony that's become a boarding school in the present (so think of it as a combination of LAKE OF DEAD LANGUAGES and THE GHOST ORCHID). The artist's colony I was thinking of for this book, though, was more Byrdcliffe than Yaddo and I picture the setting as closer to Woodstock, NY than Saratoga. The narrator, Meg Rosenthal, has left her Great Neck home (coincidentally where I live!) with her teenaged daughter after the unexpected death of her husband. She gets a job teaching at the Arcadia School which was founded by two women artists in the late 1920s. While researching the fairy tales written and illustrated by the women she uncovers a secret from the early years of the colony. There are more fairy tales than Greek myths in this one and a lot of moody upstate New York weather. Out in March 2010. I hope you'll all take a look at it.
Also ... (since you asked!) My husband, Lee Slonimsky and I, have written together a new urban fantasy series under the pseudonym Lee Carroll. The first book is called BLACK SWAN RISING and will be published by Tor in the summer of 2010. Although the urban fantasy genre (that means it's fantasy but takes place in the real world--as opposed to taking place in Middle Earth or Narnia) might not be your usual cup of tea, I urge you to take a look at BLACK SWAN RISING. I've tried to incorporate a lot of the elements that my readers have enjoyed in my "Carol Goodman" books (i.e. a strong woman narrator, imaginative writing, and mythic elements) into these books. BLACK SWAN RISING takes place in New York City and features Garet James, a jeweler and daughter of a gallery owner, who finds a mysterious silver box in an antiques stores which opens a door into another world. Oh yes, there's also a sexy vampire and an assortment of fairies ...
Again, thank you for reading THE NIGHT VILLA and discussing it with such verve and enthusiasm.
Valete,
Carol Goodman
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Just from reading this:
Carol, She gets a job teaching at the Arcadia School which was founded by two women artists in the late 1920s. While researching the fairy tales written and illustrated by the women she uncovers a secret from the early years of the colony. There are more fairy tales than Greek myths in this one .....
I am already excited to read ARCADIA FALLS. I love fairy tales!
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Urban fantasy is very much the cup of tea of some of us. I await with interest.
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I do want to remark, GINNY, how much I enjoyed those paintings in the heading depicting the ritual we've been reading about. Beautiful artistry!
I'll also be watching for the 'Lee Carroll' book. I love a good sci-fi/ fantasy.
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Thank you Bellamarie and Babi, I appreciate that.
JoanR, so glad you and Pedln got together and you got another Carol Goodman, hasn't this been fun! Maybe we can do another some day, thank you for the suggestion.
Gum what an interesting cast!!
Carol, thank you again, those sound intriguing and wonderful, and a nom de plume, too! Don't you love it? A combination of their names: Lee +Carol. Love it!
. Lots of exciting news here today. What fun it has all been! Thank you ALL!
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Thanks so much Carol for answering my question.
I can not wait until it comes out for the public to read.
This one, like all of the others, I await with interest and enthusiasm. I told Carol when I first met her in NY that I had never read any of her novels prior to her agreeing to meet with us.
A couple of months before we all met for brunch, I bought and read all of her novels and was blind sided by the fact that I knew exactly where she was talking about, in each venue, each story- having spent a good deal of my adult life in those areas she described.
By the time I met her, I felt an immediate camaraderie with her; it was as if I knew exactly who she was and I loved her already.
Now- really- how well do any of us know one another BUT that was how I felt- a kinship deep enough to interview her without any qualms at all.
Lee Carroll, huh? How come not Carol Lee? ;D
We've got to wait for Black Swan AND Arcadia both at the same time? Do I have to pass the time in "Woodstock" the way I did in 1969? Oh boy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Oh by the way, in closing, guess what? Today as I was reading along in this book up popped Demeter in the discussion. I chuckled and said "hey Carol, we're still here."
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Thanks again, Ginny and Andrea, for leading such a super discussion. All the hard work you put in finding extra material, pictures, sites, references, really added a lot. And thanks to everyone else for making it such a lively discussion.
And especially, Carol, thanks for all your time and patience.
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Lee Carol.. will put it down on the list. I am already looking for her previous books. Found one in Chautauqua..Once I get through the massive Elizabeth George in paperback, will read the one I found..
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Thank you, Pat. :) I enjoyed it, too. I originally had the question, now that we're through, be honest, what did you learn from this book (in addition to a good read) that you did not know previously but I removed it.
Still I doubt sincerely there is anybody here who did not learn something new.
I'm willing to bet 99.9 percent of those starting this book did not know what a sillyboi was. I loved Andrea's remark on somebody, that "silly boy." hahahaa
And isn't it exciting to hear of all the places people are finding Carol's books, both here and on other areas of the site. I love that. Makes it even more wonderful.
I, myself, was not up on Iusta, until I read the Deiss, who did a fabulous job of sorting out the almost indecipherable stuff on it previously found on the internet, I was not clear on the entire topic. But I am now. It was very good of Carol to put the sources of her research, I liked that honesty very much, because when you see the original you can appreciate more what she did with it: she totally recreated the ending.
The mythology is the same way. I am willing to bet 99.9 percent of people who start that book have no idea what the Eleusinian Mysteries actually were. Not that anybody knows, but as JoanR said, the permutations could keep you up at night. So she wove a tale about them. Again to appreciate what she did do it's good to sort of (if you can stomach it) know something of the original.
I was not up on multispherical imaging of papyrus scrolls, nor the hideous ways they have tried over the years to read them: the destruction, it's incredible. Maybe Pythagoras's Golden Verses was burnt for firewood in the early days, if it exists at all: entirely possible.
I particularly liked the Sider book's take on Roman scrolls and his showing various old illustrations of people in ancient art reading scrolls who are doing it incorrectly!!
One of the papyri found was account of Cleopatra's having criminals put to death in various ways so that she might decide on her own way to die.
I have really loved this experience, thank you all!
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I am having mixed feelings about this discussion ending. What a super great discussion it has been.
For me, I think the discussion actually held my interest better than the book. Comparing The Seduction of Water and The Night Villa, I like "Water" better as a story. While archaeology, especially Roman, in general is more to my liking than Irish myth, the lead character, Iris, appealed to me more. I didn't have to constantly say "Where are your BRAINS, girl" to Iris as I did with Sophie.
I love Carol's first person narrative and the way she weaves fables/myths/fairytales into the story, paralleling, converging and diverging again, myth with "real life".
Next up is The Drowning Tree.
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Ginny, "Still I doubt sincerely there is anybody here who did not learn something new."
I know I learned much and I would like to share a few things I have picked up. Now don't think I could begin to speak Latin on my own, but with the help of some great sites I would never has visited had it not been for this book, I shall attempt my good byes. Go ahead and laugh....I know I am. Looking foward to the next book, Apudne te vel me? (Your place or mine?)
Ab (ex) uno disce omnes. From one person, learn all.
Docendo discimus. We learn by teaching.
Obesa cantauit. The fat lady has sung.
Cura, ut valeas! Take care!
Ab imo pectore. From the bottom of my heart.
Habetis bona dewm. Have a nice day.
Te valere jubeo. I bid you farewell.
Vah! Denuone latine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur. :o ;)
Oh! Was I speaking Latin again? Silly me. Sometimes it just sort of slips out.
Ciao.............
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Finally back, after a week without Internet – the cable guy who came to daughter’s to install it needed to get a ground wire over the three story building , and didn’t have a long enough ladder.
I’ve finished the book, but haven’t had a chance to get caught up on all your posts.
But, Carol, thank you so much for being with us, thank you for writing this terrific novel, (and for letting me be right in my feelings about Elgin.) And for having doubts about Ely. Joan Roberts and I had a great time discussing it when we met in Manhattan last week, and at the Strand she was lucky enough to find a review copy of The Sonnet Lovers. I was tempted, but have to get my hard copies a little closer to home. Also, I’m surely looking forward to reading Arcadia Falls.
This discussion has played a big part in my enjoyment of the Night Villa. I’ve learned so much, and look forward to exploring all the resources and links that have been mentioned here. Thank you everyone, especially Ginny, Marcie, and Andy, our super duper leaders. But truly, I really needed this duscussion to find and understand a lot of the finer points here.
Oh, Ginny, thanks for the link to Shiner. I don’t drink beer, but my daughter does, and I was telling her about our Sophie and how she liked nothing better than a Shiner something. (except I couldn’t think of the “bock”.) Glad to hear the leg is fine.
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What a wonderful discussion.. And it finished just in time, since we are on our way to an rv park that does not have wifi or cable. It is close to wine country in upstate New York and we will be there for a weekend before moving on to Thousand Islands. Tried yesterday to book into the Culinary Institute in Hyde Park for later in July.. Absolutely nothing in any of the five restaurants fr either lunch or dinner. I am told you need about 6 weeks notice, not 2.. Alas,,maybe next time.
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It really has been the most fun, and now we have Latin from Bella, and travelers in Steph and Pedln, welcome back Pedln, safe trails, Stephanie, and like Frybabe, I also hate to see it end. What a delight you all have been, and I agree, thank you Carol, we're getting up her answers in our own author Interview, and Reader's Guide, which was inspired by many of your thoughts and questions. We'll put a link to it when it's up.
Such fun!!
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I echo Ginny's sentiments. I thank each one of you for making this a terrific discussion.