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Title: Cellist of Sarajevo (The) - November Book Club Online
Post by: BooksAdmin on October 16, 2015, 12:43:20 AM
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

November Book Club Online

The Cellist of Sarajevo
by Steven Galloway


(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/cellistofsarajevo/cellistsarajevosm.jpg) Our selection for November is an award-winning novel that explores the dilemmas of ordinary people caught in the crises of war and examines the healing power of art.

"In this beautiful and unforgettable novel, Steven Galloway has taken an extraordinary, imaginative leap to create a story that speaks powerfully to the dignity and generosity of the human spirit under extraordinary duress.." - ~ Cellist of Sarajevo Website.

Discussion Schedule
November 1 - 2  The Cellist and Part One

November 3 - 9  Part Two through the section on Keenan ending with "he knows he has a long way to before he is home again." (p 106 in my copy)

November 10 - 15 Rest of Part Two

November 16 - 23  Part Three

November 24 - 27  Part Four


Questions for November 1-2: (The Cellist and Part One)

What do we learn about the city of Sarajevo in these sections?
What are your initial impressions of the characters that Steven Galloway has created: the Cellist? Arrow? Kenan? Dragan?
What is the main task/activity that is the focus for each of them in this story?
What are some ways that each of them, and other citizens, have been affected by the war?

Questions for November 3-9: (First half of Part Two - to p.106)
What are some more details we learn about Arrow, Dragan and Kenan? Who do they interact with and how?
What seems to be each of their approaches or ways of dealing with the situation they are in?
What are some of the things that they say or we're told that they are thinking that made a special impression on you?
What words, metaphors, descriptions, do you think the author uses to effectively make his points?
Can you personally relate to anything in any of the characters or their situations?

Questions for November 10 - 15: (Second half of Part Two - from p.107 to end of Part Two)
In the beginning of the chapter on Dragan, we learn what he thinks motivates the cellist. Do you agree?
A lot happens to and around Dragan, Arrow and Keenan in the latter pages of Part Two. What actions stand out for you?
What themes do you notice in Part Two?

Questions for November 16 -: (Part Three)
In part Three, Dragan, Arrow and Keenan seem to undergo changes in their outlook. What do you notice about them?
What sentences in this part of the book seem especially important?


Questions for Part Four
How do the stories of the main characters seem to resolve in this last part? Were you surprised by any of their actions?
What are some of your thoughts and feelings as you reflect on this novel?

LINKS

 Background on the Adagio in G-Minor, including an audio file. (http://hubpages.com/entertainment/Who-Wrote-the-Adagio-in-G-Minor-A-Musical-Mystery)

Image of Vedran, Smailovic, Cello player in the partially destroyed National Library in Sarajevo, 1992. (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Evstafiev-bosnia-cello.jpg)

Sarajevo Survival Map 1992-96 (http://www.mappery.com/sarajevo-survival-map-1992-1996)
 

Discussion Leader:  Marcie (marciei@aol.com )


Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on October 16, 2015, 01:03:02 AM
I look forward to reading and talking about this book with you in November. From what I've read about it, it's a very powerful novel. We'll start our conversation on November 1.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on October 16, 2015, 06:43:09 AM
Count me in on this one. I finally got the book this past spring, but haven't read it yet.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on October 16, 2015, 10:46:28 AM
That's great, Frybabe. I'm glad you'll be joining us.

The book seems to be available from many public libraries and inexpensively from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/b/ref=as_sl_pc_tf_lc?node=283155&tag=seniorlorg-20&camp=15329&creative=493621&linkCode=ur1&adid=0W0HQDDBPWTQ3FE2TYXN&&ref-refURL=http%3A%2F%2Fseniorlearn.org%2Fforum%2Findex.php) also.

Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on October 16, 2015, 12:10:34 PM
My library has lots of copies.  I've put one on hold, and by the time I pick it up my allowed renewals will last almost until Christmas.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on October 16, 2015, 02:54:04 PM
Mine is on its way - found a used copy on Amazon.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on October 16, 2015, 05:44:41 PM
Wonderful! I've got this book somewhere in the house. I'll find it.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on October 17, 2015, 11:58:23 AM
Welcome, Pat, Barb and Jonathan! It's wonderful to have such a great group already signed up for our discussion.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on October 17, 2015, 06:49:57 PM
I'll be here, I have the book! 
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Steph on October 18, 2015, 09:45:41 AM
not I, said the little red hen.. Have we stopped doing fiction??
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: pedln on October 18, 2015, 11:34:42 AM
It is fiction, Steph.

I have the book from the library.  I'm somewhat hesitant to add my name here because I haven't shown much stick-to-it-iveness in recent discussions.  Will try again.

It seems short and is not a large volume.  It won't weigh down my carryon when I fly to Albequerque mid-November.  (My New York girls have just moved there.)
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on October 18, 2015, 12:46:43 PM
Great, Ella. I'm really glad you'll be with us.

Steph, we wanted to offer a fiction for November since, as you've noted, we had two non-fictions the last two months. While "the cellist" is based on the actions (playing the cello each day for 3 weeks to honor the 22 victims of a mortar attack) of an actual person, the author has re-imagined that action and added other characters and events in his novel.

Pedln, I'm glad you have the book and will attempt to join the group. How nice to visit your girls in their new location!
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Steph on October 19, 2015, 08:45:19 AM
Thanks for the heads up, but I must confess that for a number of reasons, I am into funny or fantasy for a while.. Nothing ponderous.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on October 19, 2015, 10:58:22 AM
ok, Steph.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on October 25, 2015, 09:16:54 AM
I'm in, I just ordered my book from Amazon, total cost with shipping is $4.88. My library has a waiting list too long for me to attempt to get it from there.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on October 25, 2015, 10:19:14 PM
Great, Bellamarie. I'm glad you were able to order the book.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on October 28, 2015, 01:25:07 PM
I'm going to put this up now lest I forget it later. http://mperrottet.hubpages.com/hub/Who-Wrote-the-Adagio-in-G-Minor-A-Musical-Mystery
The book was inspired by Vedran Smailović, who regularly played in the streets during the Siege of Sarajevo.  Here he is in 1992, taken at the National Library. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Evstafiev-bosnia-cello.jpg

And here is a clip from three years ago: https://vimeo.com/39846516  The piece he is playing was written in his honor.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on October 28, 2015, 05:24:45 PM
I read a few pages to see what the book is like.  It's really well written.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on October 29, 2015, 02:49:41 PM
Thank you Frybabe, I could listen to that piece of music all day, it is so comforting.  Loved seeing the pics of the cellist. 
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on October 29, 2015, 10:06:15 PM
Thanks, Frybabe, for those helpful links. I'm glad to see the "real-life" cellist, especially the earlier photo in front of the bombed library, even though the author has said that he used the cellist for inspiration in his story and that the character in the novel is not based on him as it would be in a work of non-fiction.

Pat, I agree. I had read some reviews that said the book was well written. It might have taken me a few pages to get into it but with Chapter One on, I have been drawn into the story and think that the writing is very good.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marjifay on October 30, 2015, 07:26:33 AM
I'm almost finished with this book, and while I'm not a fan of fantasy, I'd recommend Steph stick with that genre instead of this one.  It's only 235 pages, but seems like 400 to me.

Marj
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on October 30, 2015, 07:40:47 AM
Marj why did you decide to read the entire book before we start?
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marjifay on October 30, 2015, 08:35:48 AM
Aren't we supposed to read the entire book?  If the discussion is supposed to start Nov. 1, how can we discuss it if we haven't read the book?

Marj
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on October 30, 2015, 09:21:08 AM
Oh Marj - we usually discuss the book in sections so that what comes in the next section may even alter our opinions - I just find it difficult to read ahead because I am so afraid I will spill the beans on something so I was curious how you handle keeping what comes next a secret -

Usually a face to face group does exactly what you are comfortable doing - that is reading the entire book before they discuss it - from the beginning those 25 years ago when SeniorNet that became Senior Learn started, the books were broken up into sections - in the beginning years more time was often taken so that one book could be discussed for over 2 months - the idea was to research and share all the tidbits so we could get deeply into the themes rather than just the plot - A plot is what it is but the various themes take really understanding the place and characters, the differences in how folks lived and what they could know that may be different than today if the book was written about another time.

Hope you can share your questions and research about the small things in the section that is going to be read each week - it gives us all a window into a deeper experience - its fun... hope you share in the fun.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marjifay on October 30, 2015, 09:35:20 AM
I didn't know that was how it worked.  I guess I just won't talk about anything ahead of what is currently being discussed.  One thing reading about Sarajevo has done is make me want to read some history about the Bosnian War.  I have put a couple of books about its history on my TBR list.  I remember vaguely when it was going on, during the Clinton administration I think.  But I don't remember the reasons for it, or why the U.S. got involved with it.

Marj
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on October 30, 2015, 11:33:42 AM
We'll put up a discussion schedule soon, to divide our discussion into "chunks." It's not necessarily a reading schedule. Anyone can read ahead if you wish but, as you say, Marj, we'll focus our discussion on what's covered in the chunk.

I think a good outcome from a book is if it makes you want to read more about the period or anything else included in the book. That's great that you're planning to read about the Bosnian War.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on October 31, 2015, 04:39:07 PM
I've gotten the book and read Part One. Haven't decided whether to join yet: I'm more for upbeat things right now.

 have very strong memories of travelling through (then)  Yugoslavia (on the Orient Express) in 1963. My geography isn't good enough to know whether we were in (now) Bosnia or Serbia. Traveling on a shoestring budget, we weren't in the chicy first class, but in second class with all the locals (and sometimes their poultry).

At first things were quiet. But the train stopped at a small station. We heard later that there were rumors of a traitor fleeing on the train. the officials made everyone get off so they could search the train: everyone but us, the only Americans. n our compartment it was boiling hot, but outside there was snow on the ground, and the people had been given no chance to get their coats.

So  our carriage mates stood outside, freezing, for about an hour, looking through the window at us sitting in lonely splendor. Older women dressed in layers of coats were busy trying to deal with the snow. When they were let back in, we got a few looks, and everyone was quiet.

I was worried about a woman sitting opposite me. her face was white, and she was shivering uncontrollably. They had all been lightly dressed, since the carriage was so hot.

I had a fur-lined coat in the luggage rack (squirrel fur, but warm as toast). I got it down and insisted she wrap  it around herself. She stopped shivering, and soon fell asleep.

 
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on October 31, 2015, 04:53:50 PM
Well, that changed everything. now we were one of them. No one else spoke English, but it didn't matter. They told us all about their country. We passed a town where there had been an earthquake, and they were telling us all about it. I never felt so welcomed.

When the Bosnian war started, I was horrified. The people I had met were killing each other. How could that be? Will we ever understand war?
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on October 31, 2015, 07:27:20 PM
What a fascinating story, JOANK.   Everybody, no matter where you go, knows you are an American, you can't hide it, can you?  We had a similar time years ago when we went to Costa Rica, before it became a tourist attraction.  We had been told not to go to the west coast, but, of course, that's an incentive to go, so we took a local bus, what a trip that was. Everybody brought everything with them, one woman had her little boy peeing in a bottle in the aisle, and we knew very little Spanish, but just enough to ask questions and I had my handy English/Spanish handbook with me. 

Fun trip.  We took a bus trip to a local swimming pool, it was way out by itself in a field and the water was in pipes above the water.   The local market - and the local grocery store.  I loved traveling, but then  one ages and it is troubling to get from here to there at times.  Mercy!
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on October 31, 2015, 07:31:15 PM
What I meant to say, JOAN, was read this book.  I think you will like it; it's not all downbeat.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 01, 2015, 01:54:58 AM
JoanK, what an interesting story. How uncomfortable for you to have those other passengers outside staring at you in the warm train. It sounds like you really turned things around with your good deed, letting that woman use your fur coat. As Ella says, this novel isn't all downbeat and their are actions (similar to yours) that show the common humanity in people.

I haven't traveled as you, Ella and JoanK, have but, for me, the writing and descriptions in this book has put me in the world of wartime Sarajevo.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 01, 2015, 01:58:36 AM
I've put up an initial discussion schedule and some questions in the heading above to help start us off. If we want to go faster or slower through the book, we can decide that as a group as we go.

If it's okay with all of you I'm thinking that we can get started by just talking about the first 33 pages or so (through Part One) for the first couple of days. You can respond to any of the questions or talk about other aspects of the story that interest you in this "chunk" of the book.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 01, 2015, 12:26:16 PM
JoanK, you may very well have saved that woman's life.  she was surely in the early stages of hypothermia, and you can easily progress to the point where there's no getting back.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 01, 2015, 12:54:13 PM
I have a very upbeat Orient Express story.  Many years ago a friend and colleague of mine was traveling on the Orient Express, and was sitting next to a beautiful red-headed Yugoslavian.  They started talking, and discovered common musical interests.  After a while, they were sing Mozart duets together.  It was a long ride; at the end they exchanged addresses, started writing to each other, and a year or so later were married.

Does a courtship like that lead to a good marriage?  This one did.  When I knew them their children were almost grown, and they seemed an ideal couple, with many common interests, and by the way they talked to each other you could see how good their life together was.

She was devastated when the fighting began.  Much of what she had known was rubble, and many of the people she knew were gone.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 01, 2015, 02:02:47 PM
Pat, you are right, JoanK likely did save that woman's life by her act of kindness.  Thanks for your uplifting story too. What a wonderful way to meet a lifelong partner. It fits right in with the portrayal of the power of music in our novel.

If some of you haven't clicked the link that Frybabe gave us to hear the moving and haunting Adagio in G-Minor you might want to do so now at http://hubpages.com/entertainment/Who-Wrote-the-Adagio-in-G-Minor-A-Musical-Mystery. Just click the graphic of the sheet music a little way down the page. This is the music that we're told in the first pages of the book that the cellist plays to restore his hope, which is becoming more difficult to do as the brutal siege of his country continues.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on November 01, 2015, 02:54:39 PM
The emotions start almost immediately in the book - pg. 3 - "he was loved, ....he had always been loved, and ... the world was a place where above all else the things that were good would find a way to burrow into you."

We all felt that at one time or another, the world a good place, and then tragedy happens - whatever it may be.   

The cellist has "hope" - "one of the limited number of things remaining...." 
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on November 01, 2015, 02:57:29 PM
We learn what it is about:

"The geography of the siege is simple.   Sarajevo is a long ribbon of flat land surrounded on all sides by hills.   The men on the hills control all the high ground."
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 01, 2015, 04:00:07 PM
I found a map of the Siege of Sarajevo. http://www.mappery.com/sarajevo-survival-map-1992-1996
The city is completely surrounded by high ground.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 01, 2015, 04:07:07 PM
Good grief.  When you look at the map, you wonder that anyone survived more than a day or so.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 01, 2015, 04:18:40 PM
I think a year or two ago I ran across photos of mortar shell hits that had been filled in with red resin. They call them Rose of Sarajevo. I don't know how many of them there are. In 2012, on the 20th anniversary of the siege, they held a memorial filling Marsal Tito Street with 11,541 empty chairs honoring those who died.
http://rogermrichards.photoshelter.com/image/I0000AX_S8AhPqTg
http://rogermrichards.photoshelter.com/image/I0000QNdAH_AH7w8
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on November 01, 2015, 05:39:47 PM
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

November Book Club Online

The Cellist of Sarajevo
by Steven Galloway


(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/cellistofsarajevo/cellistsarajevosm.jpg) Our selection for November is an award-winning novel that explores the dilemmas of ordinary people caught in the crises of war and examines the healing power of art.

"In this beautiful and unforgettable novel, Steven Galloway has taken an extraordinary, imaginative leap to create a story that speaks powerfully to the dignity and generosity of the human spirit under extraordinary duress.." - ~ Cellist of Sarajevo Website.

Discussion Schedule
November 1 - 2  The Cellist and Part One

November 3 - 9  Part Two through the section on Keenan ending with "he knows he has a long way to before he is home again." (p 106 in my copy)

November 10 - 15 Rest of Part Two

November 16 - 23  Part Three

November 24 - 27  Part Four


Questions for November 1-2: (The Cellist and Part One)

What do we learn about the city of Sarajevo in these sections?
What are your initial impressions of the characters that Steven Galloway has created: the Cellist? Arrow? Kenan? Dragan?
What is the main task/activity that is the focus for each of them in this story?
What are some ways that each of them, and other citizens, have been affected by the war?

Questions for November 3-9: (First half of Part Two - to p.106)
What are some more details we learn about Arrow, Dragan and Kenan? Who do they interact with and how?
What seems to be each of their approaches or ways of dealing with the situation they are in?
What are some of the things that they say or we're told that they are thinking that made a special impression on you?
What words, metaphors, descriptions, do you think the author uses to effectively make his points?
Can you personally relate to anything in any of the characters or their situations?

Questions for November 10 - 15: (Second half of Part Two - from p.107 to end of Part Two)
In the beginning of the chapter on Dragan, we learn what he thinks motivates the cellist. Do you agree?
A lot happens to and around Dragan, Arrow and Keenan in the latter pages of Part Two. What actions stand out for you?
What themes do you notice in Part Two?

Questions for November 16 -: (Part Three)
In part Three, Dragan, Arrow and Keenan seem to undergo changes in their outlook. What do you notice about them?
What sentences in this part of the book seem especially important?


Questions for Part Four
How do the stories of the main characters seem to resolve in this last part? Were you surprised by any of their actions?
What are some of your thoughts and feelings as you reflect on this novel?

LINKS

 Background on the Adagio in G-Minor, including an audio file. (http://hubpages.com/entertainment/Who-Wrote-the-Adagio-in-G-Minor-A-Musical-Mystery)

Image of Vedran, Smailovic, Cello player in the partially destroyed National Library in Sarajevo, 1992. (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Evstafiev-bosnia-cello.jpg)

Sarajevo Survival Map 1992-96 (http://www.mappery.com/sarajevo-survival-map-1992-1996)
 

Discussion Leader:  Marcie (marciei@aol.com )



From Marj, in her post, #24: 'One thing reading about Sarajevo has done is make me want to read some history about the Bosnian War...I remember vaguely when it was going on, during the Clinton administration I think.  But I don't remember the reasons for it, or why the U.S. got involved with it.

I found an answer in The Balkan Wars, by Andre Gerolymatos, page 245:

'The Americans  went to war agaist Serbia on March 24, 1999, because it became clear to Washington that the crisis in Kosovo could ignite a wider, Balkan conflict and unravel the security of Southeastern Europe. President Clinton articulated this policy on the day NATO bombing commenced by stating: "We act to prevent a wider war, to defuse a powder keg at the heart of Europe that has exploded twice before in this century with catastrophic results." '

The Bosnian war seemed to go on forever, with the siege of Sarajevo playing a big part in it. As it did at the beginning of the century, when the assassination of the Archduke of Austria and his wife in Sarajevo triggered WWI. And of course several Olympic winter games have been played there, I believe. Goodness knows what further calamities President Clinton saved the world.
Jonathan
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 01, 2015, 06:23:26 PM
The emotions start almost immediately in the book - pg. 3 - "he was loved, ....he had always been loved, and ... the world was a place where above all else the things that were good would find a way to burrow into you."

We all felt that at one time or another, the world a good place, and then tragedy happens - whatever it may be.   

The cellist has "hope" - "one of the limited number of things remaining...." 

Great point, Ella. Your first quote about feeling loved is followed by "Though he knew all of this then, he would give up nearly everything to be able to go back in time and slow down that moment, if only he could more clearly recall it now.

As the war progresses, it's becoming more and more difficult to remember how it was before the war. Their memories are being stripped away. It seems like a developing theme in the book is that the daily brutality of war is making people question whether they ever had another life.

In addition to seeing how the cellist feels, we learn that for Arrow "that life will end has become so self evident it's lost all meaning. But worse, for Arrow, is the damage done to the distance between what she knows and what she believes. For although she knows her tears that day [as an 18-year old driving out to the countryside and feeling happiness at being alive] were not the ridiculous sentimentality of a teenage girl, she doesn't really believe it."

For Kenan, "Like him, her [his wife Amila's] middle age has somehow escaped her. She's barely thirty-seven but looks well over 50. Her hair is thin and he skin hangs loose off her flesh, suggesting a former woman who, Kenan knows, never was."

Dragan's story begins with the words, "There is no way to tell which version of the lie is the truth. Now, after all that has happened, Dragan knows the Sarajevo he remembers, the city he grew up in and was proud of and happy with, likely never existed. If he looks around him, it's hard to see what once was, or maybe was..."

I'm sure we'll find more instances throughout the book and you'll likely identify other themes too.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 01, 2015, 06:34:34 PM
Frybabe, that map at  http://www.mappery.com/sarajevo-survival-map-1992-1996 is very helpful to me. I often have difficulty visualizing a place from the descriptions in a book. Ella quotes from the book" "The geography of the siege is simple.   Sarajevo is a long ribbon of flat land surrounded on all sides by hills.   The men on the hills control all the high ground." As you say, Pat, you wonder how anyone survived.

I read somewhere that the city of Sarajevo is like another character in this novel... that Galloway makes it very much a part of the book.

Those red chairs are heartbreaking Frybabe. The caption says that each represents one of the 1600 children who were killed during the 48 month Bosnian Serb siege of Sarajevo. The Sarajevo roses on the streets are also such a vivid permanent reminder.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 01, 2015, 06:41:48 PM
Jonathan, you point to some of the "politics" surrounding the siege, war (I'm not sure what terms accurately describe the events). I think we'll find some political references in the book too at various levels... not just in government, but in forces such as black markets and the like.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marjifay on November 01, 2015, 08:01:50 PM
Thanks, Frybabe, for that map of the siege of Sarajevo and the photos of street scenes of the city.  No wonder their people liked to walk the streets.  So sad that they risked their lives in doing so when the siege began.

There is not much to see in my town-- a few fast food places like Taco Bell, etc.,  and people don't walk -- they tear around in their cars.

I was just thinking how I'd feel if my town got bombed away.  Don't think I'd miss it much.  Most of my friends live in other towns.  Quite a few walls in my town are messed up with graffiti from gangs of punks who have no respect for other people's property.  No one would miss them if they were gone.  I won't name their ethnicity, but you can guess, as I live in Southern California.

Marj
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marjifay on November 02, 2015, 07:37:47 AM
I'm having a terrible time finding the current discussion which was to begin Nov. 1 of The Cellist of Sarajevo.  I found the name on the list of discussions, but when I clicked on The Cellist of Sarajevo, I was taken back to the messages where there were talking about who was planning to take part.  Then I clicked on where it said "to join the discussion, click HERE, but got the same result.  Can anyone help?

Marj
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 02, 2015, 08:14:57 AM
This is now the discussion, Marj.  If there aren't a lot of posts in the pre-discussion, a leader often doesn't start a new location for it.  So you're in.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 02, 2015, 09:00:08 AM
I like how we are following four different people and seeing how the Siege will affect them.

Kenan is the only one don't yet have some idea of what his place is in this particular mortar attack and aftermath.

Surreal is how I would describe how Arrow seemed to view the events until she came to grips with the new reality of her life. She was able to compartmentalize her "real self" from the person she needed to be to do her job. Not everyone can do that.

How will the mortar attack affect Dragan, whom I assume works at that particular bakery and survives.

Our cellist is pretty straight forward from the start. He mourns his neighbors and his city in his own very special way.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marjifay on November 02, 2015, 10:34:32 AM
Thanks, Pat, for helping me figure out where the discussion was.

And thanks, Marcie, for the quote from that book that explained how we got into that war.   My library has the book, so I think I will get it and read some more of it.

I found another book I want to read (another sad one I think):  The Bosnia List; A Memoir of War, Exile and Return by Kenan Trebincevik. (Am I ever glad I have an easy last name like Martin!  I rarely have to repeat or spell it, unlike that author, I would imagine.) 
The book description reads:  "A young survivor of the Bosnian War returns to his homeland to confront the people who betrayed his family At age eleven, Kenan Trebincevic was a happy, karate-loving kid living with his family in the quiet Eastern European town of Brcko. Then, in the spring of 1992, war broke out and his friends, neighbors and teammates all turned on him. Pero - Kenan's beloved karate coach - showed up at his door with an AK-47 - screaming: "You have one hour to leave or be killed!" Kenan’s only crime: he was Muslim. This poignant, searing memoir chronicles Kenan’s miraculous escape from the brutal ethnic cleansing campaign that swept the former Yugoslavia." 
 
I remember reading when that war was going on how neighbors who had been friends suddenly became mortal enemies.  (I have some next door neighbors who like to blast out rap music on their car stereo at sometimes 3 AM whom I'd like to scare with an AK47 when they do that.)

Marj

 
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 02, 2015, 11:19:43 AM
Thanks, Pat, for confirming to Marj and this is the location for our book discussion for November. Marj, it sounds like you are under somewhat of a siege in your own neighborhood and, perhaps, you don't feel safe.  We're learning in the book how some of the people of Sarajevo dealt with their fear and anger.

It was Jonathan who provided the info about the origins of the war. It seems very complicated. I'm sure there are many books-worth of explanations. If you get to any of those books before the month is out, let us know what  you learn.

Frybabe, "compartmentalized" is a good word for Arrow. For her life as a shooter, which seems to be her entire life now during the war, she has even changed her name to arrow.

Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 02, 2015, 11:48:16 AM
Well I guess I am what the expressions says, A day late and a dollar short!  We had volleyball tournaments all weekend for my granddaughters who came in as runner ups for 5th grade, and super champions for 8th grade.  I can finally take a day of rest and try to catch up and join the discussion.

JoanK., I have to say I was truly touched by your act of kindness on the train. It brought tears to my eyes, and warmth to my heart hearing you say this.....

"Well, that changed everything. now we were one of them. No one else spoke English, but it didn't matter. They told us all about their country. We passed a town where there had been an earthquake, and they were telling us all about it. I never felt so welcomed."

Isn't that what humanity is all about?  I have always heard we all speak in the same language when we smile.  Well, acts of kindness are true smiles.  As Pat pointed out, you probably did save that woman's life.   :)

Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on November 02, 2015, 01:03:11 PM
I had to go searching the web because all through the book I didn't know (or maybe I just didn't read it right?) who was the enemy on the hills.  Was I the only one who didn't understand that it was a civil war between ethnicities?  Is that correct?  Who were they?  Muslims and ????? Was it Christians?

"The book is about the use of hatred to attempt to divide society along ethnic lines in the 1990s war in Bosnia" - The Star.com

" Canadian author, Steven Galloway, used Smajlovic as a character in his bestselling 2008 novel, The Cellist of Sarajevo.  ............. Smailovic publicly expressed outrage over the book's publication. He said, "They steal my name and identity," and added that he expected damages, an apology and compensation..........Smailovic also played at funerals during the siege, even though funerals were often targeted by snipers. He escaped the city in late 1993 and has since been involved in numerous music projects as a performer, composer and conductor." - Wikipedia

I don't remember reading the name of the cellist - where in the book is it used? 
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 02, 2015, 03:41:41 PM
Since we are only suppose to have read up to pg. 33, I can tell you there is no name yet mentioned for the cellist.  I haven't read any further so I can't say if a name is used after this section.

I was wondering the same thing, who are fighting who?  I guess I will have to go on a Google search.  I never paid too much attention to this time.  So far the story is quite sad, and after just reading the tragedy of the Lusitania I am not sure I'm up for more war discussions.  Will give it a few more days.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 02, 2015, 03:54:47 PM
The cellist hasn't been named as far as I've gotten.  I read somewhere that he and the author came to an amiable understanding.

So we've met the cellist and three other people, sharing a common problem.  What used to be their lives, and their truths and certainties, is all disappearing before their eyes as they watch their world being reduced to rubble.  They are trying to cope, compartmentalizing, remembering what they used to be, or forgetting it.  How will this play out?
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 02, 2015, 04:07:56 PM
Hope this helps others as it did me as far as their war.......     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarajevo


Siege of Sarajevo during Bosnian War[edit]
Main article: Siege of Sarajevo
See also: Sniper Alley

The Sarajevo Red Line, a memorial event of the Siege of Sarajevo's 20th anniversary. 11,541 empty chairs symbolized 11,541 victims of the war which were killed during the Siege of Sarajevo.[49][50]
The Bosnian War for independence resulted in large-scale destruction and dramatic population shifts during the Siege of Sarajevo between 1992 and 1995. Thousands of Sarajevans lost their lives under the constant bombardment and sniper shooting at civilians by the Serb forces during the siege.[51] It is the longest siege of a capital city in the history of modern warfare.[52] Serb forces of the Republika Srpska and the Yugoslav People's Army besieged Sarajevo, the largest city of Bosnia and Herzegovina, from 5 April 1992 to 29 February 1996 during the Bosnian War.
When Bosnia and Herzegovina declared independence from Yugoslavia and achieved United Nations recognition, the Serbian leaders and army whose goal was to create a "greater Serbia", declared a new Serbian national state Republika Srpska (RS) which was carved from the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina,[53] encircled Sarajevo with a siege force of 18,000[54] stationed in the surrounding hills, from which they assaulted the city with weapons that included artillery, mortars, tanks, anti-aircraft guns, heavy machine-guns, multiple rocket launchers, rocket-launched aircraft bombs, and sniper rifles.[54] From 2 May 1992, the Serbs blockaded the city. The Bosnian government defence forces inside the besieged city were poorly equipped and unable to break the siege.
During the siege, 11,541 people lost their lives, including over 1,500 children. An additional 56,000 people were wounded, including nearly 15,000 children.[51] The 1991 census indicates that before the siege the city and its surrounding areas had a population of 525,980.
When the siege ended, the concrete scars caused by mortar shell explosions left a mark that was filled with red resin. After the red resin was placed, it left a floral pattern which led to it being dubbed a Sarajevo Rose.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 02, 2015, 10:21:47 PM
I'm glad you've joined in, Bellamarie. Congratulations to your athletic granddaughters! Thanks for the info on the Serb forces being the attackers in the siege. And, thank you Ella for that question. I wasn't quite sure who was who either but as I'm reading the novel, I think that many of the emotions and perspectives we're seeing in the characters in the book could probably generalize to many people in many wars.

Pat, that's a perceptive way to put what we're reading about... as their outer world turns to rubble what used to be their lives, and their truths and certainties is disappearing too.

There is no hurry, so if you all think we need more time to get into the book, we can continue to talk about just Part One tomorrow.  Or you can add whatever you like about the beginning of the book and we can also start talking about the beginning of Part Two. Whichever you prefer.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 03, 2015, 09:34:59 AM
For myself and maybe others, I am going to list the four major characters we have met so far:

cellist.....he has witnessed 22 of his friends being blown up by a mortar attack while standing in a bread line.

Arrow......... she is a sniper hidden out in a dilapidated building trying to decide which of the three soldiers she will kill.  She shoots one shot off and realizes she is surrounded by rebels who must have been tracking her.

Kenan.....a father of three and his wife living above an elderly lady Mrs. Ristovski.  He gets her water for her when he goes to get theirs, risking his life every time he leaves their apartment.

Dragan.....he works in a bakery and instead of money they pay him with free food.

At this point my take on all these people are they are dealing with the ramifications of war, trying to survive, and deal with how their lives hang in the balance day to day, and their reality of what their lives were is no longer.  I think about this and how in just seconds all our comforts and reality can turn upside down, and are out of our control.

Like in our last discussion Dead Wake, we see yet again how innocent civilians are casualties of war. 
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 03, 2015, 11:17:37 AM
Thank you for that list, Bellamarie. It sounds like the "enemy," the men on the hills, are not distinguishing soldiers from "innocent civilians." The only one of the four main characters you list who is a soldier is Arrow. We learn that the others, as well as Arrow, can be targeted at any time. As you say, when Kenan goes out for water, or Dragan to his job at the bakery, they are in danger. In the beginning of the book, Dragan has seen three people killed by snipers. "One moment the people are walking or running through the street and then they drop abruptly as they they were marionettes and their puppeteer has fainted. As they fall there's a sharp crack of gunfire, and everyone in the area seeks cover."

You mention the feeling of losing and control and Galloway emphasizes their lack of control with metaphors such as marionettes and puppeteer.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 03, 2015, 01:29:50 PM
The description of Kenan makes me see the little strategies of living in wartime conditions most vividly.  You don't use your bedroom because it faces the shooting, you use the last cup of water to shave before getting more, you're so used to not having lights that you don't react when they go on briefly.  You calculate a balance in how much water to bring back.  Too little, and you have to risk your life again sooner, too much and you're in more danger because you can't scurry fast enough.  You put up with your crabby neighbor's little games and fetch her water too because you said you would.  By the way, that's a 61 pound load of water he's carrying back, not counting the weight of the bottles.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 03, 2015, 09:39:02 PM
Pat, that's what I love about our book discussions. We all notice and comment on different things. The novel is full of those little strategies. For me, many of them sort of faded into the background but you're right, those descriptions make civilian life during the war more vivid. THanks for doing the math... 61+ pounds of jiggling water bottles. What a heavy, awkward and uncomfortable load to carry, especially when Kenan has to run to dodge bullets.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 04, 2015, 11:02:12 AM
In the beginning of Part Two, we learn that the reason that Kenan hasn't enlisted in the military is because he's afraid of dying. "And, as afraid he is of dying, he's more afraid of killing. He doesn't think he could do it. He knows he wants to sometimes, and that there are men on the other side who certainly deserve to die.... It takes courage to kill a man, and he doesn't possess such courage."

Maybe we can look to see how Kenan's situation compares or contrasts to that of Arrow and Dragan.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 04, 2015, 01:40:37 PM
In part two, we get to meet a few new characters, and how they play a part in each of these four main characters lives.  I've taken a huge liking to Dragan's friend Emina.  He sees her and hopes she does not stop to talk to him.  She stops and tells him she is taking her deceased mother's heart meds to a woman in need.  They are expired, but can surely be useful, rather than having none at all.  Then she tells Dragan about how the war has forced them to go outside their everyday boundaries and how she is seeing parts of her neighborhood she has never seen before.  They both silently agree, they believe no help is coming to them.  They are losing faith, and hope.  Dragan mentions the man he knew who survived Jasenovac and Auschwitz and then killed himself the day the war in Sarajevo broke out.  He states,  "I think he believed that what he and others suffered there meant something, that people had learned from it.  But they haven't."

Emina then tells Dragan about her giving the neighbor lady a part of her salt she had more than she needed, and the lady gives her way too many buckets of her cherries, so she then divides them into ten portions, and gives to ten of her neighbors.  Emina says to Dragan, "Isn't that how we are suppose to behave?  Isn't that how we used to be?"
"I don't know ," Dragan says.  "I can't remember if we were.  It seems impossible to remember what things were like."  And he suspects this is what the men on the hills want most.  They would, of course, like to kill them all, but if they can't, they would like to make them forget how they used to be, how civilized people act.  He wonders how long it will take before they succeed.  As long as he stands here waiting to cross, he knows, they're winning.  It's time his day, his life, moved through this intersection and toward whatever end awaits him.  "I think I'll cross now," he says to Emina. 


Dragan gets shot but is okay, he and Emina joke about the soldier being a bad shot.  "Sarajevo roulette," she says.  "So much more complicated than Russian."  He laughs, not because it's funny but because it's true, and he stands there, Emina's hand on his back, glad for the first time in a long while to be alive.

This was such a touching part of this section.  The man killing himself because he sees the suffering he and thousands have already lived through seems to not have made a difference in how people continue to kill each other.  He felt all hope was gone, and did not want to live through yet more killings, struggles and strife.  Then Emina's attitude, although she is feeling a bit hopeless about help coming for them, shows that she is willing to risk her life by taking old medication to hopefully save someone else's life. 

This reminds me of the parable from the Bible of the Good Samaritan, Luke 10: 25-37
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10%3A25-37

The cherry story reminds me of the parable in the Bible of the Manna from Heaven
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+16

In times of war it is easy to lose our faith and hope, yet there are always incidents we can see, that people even in their worst times have the humanity, and goodwill to help others in need.  We step outside of ourselves and think of others because like Emina said, "Isn't that how we are suppose to behave?"

This section brought tears to my eyes.   :'(    :'(
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 04, 2015, 07:38:20 PM
We're probably going to see more of these instances of "how we are supposed to behave".  Look at Kenan, increasing his chances of dying for the woman downstairs, who has been playing her irritating games with him and the other neighbors for years.  But the person who wouldn't take a risk for her is not the kind of person he would want to be.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 04, 2015, 08:06:08 PM
Marcie:
Quote
Maybe we can look to see how Kenan's situation compares or contrasts to that of Arrow and Dragan.

Arrow versus Kenan:

The biggest difference is that Kenan has a wife and children he is trying to keep safe, and she seems to have no such responsibilities.  Kenan is terrified of being shot or killed, and even more terrified of the thought of having to kill someone.  But he fearfully does what he has to to keep his family alive.

Arrow seems pretty fatalistic about the possibility of death.  She is, however very concerned with the need for coming out of this with "clean hands".  That doesn't mean not killing anyone, but she has set her own rules, though it becomes increasingly uncertain whether she can stick to them.

Arrow is the character I can most nearly get into the skin of.  No, I can't see myself shooting people, but her marksmanship hits home.  It's been half a century since I had a rifle in my hands, but I can still feel the skill involved.  I don't quite believe she could be as good as she's supposed to be, but I can certainly believe that someone could have that sort of feel for intangibles, and improve their chances by it.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 04, 2015, 11:51:29 PM
Bellamarie, yes, Dragan's meeting with Emina is an emotional turning point for him. At first he hopes for a miracle in her not stopping and talking to him. He's become used to avoiding friends as well as strangers. After their meeting "he stands there, Emina's hand on his back, glad for the first time in a long while to be alive."

As  you say, Pat, "the person who wouldn't take a risk for her [Kenan's downstairs neighbor] is not the kind of person he would want to be. Bellamarie, the excerpt you quoted seems to sum up their predicament.  "he suspects this is what the men on the hills want most.  They would, of course, like to kill them all, but if they can't, they would like to make them forget how they used to be, how civilized people act.  He wonders how long it will take before they succeed."

Wow, Pat, how interesting that you have that marksmanship experience. That would certainly make you understand Arrow better than I do. Though the author's descriptions are quite good enough to make me sympathize with her perspective.

Yes, Arrow has her own rules about what she will and will not do in these impossible circumstances and she is trying to keep to them.

It seems that both she and Kenan are trying to hold on to some degree of "civilized life" -- a vision of themselves as civilized people.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 05, 2015, 03:42:21 PM
PatH.,  (Arrow)  She is, however very concerned with the need for coming out of this with "clean hands".

I had a real problem with trying to understand how this is possible.  Do you think because a person sets their own standards to who they will kill, makes a difference as to their hands are clean?  I do like the fact she is going to be protecting the cellist.  Protecting an innocent civilian, and having to kill a sniper in order to keep him safe does have a sense of honor to it. 

In comparison of these characters, Kenan does not feel he has the courage to kill.  Arrow a member of the University target shooting team, who was selected for special missions, has no problem with killing the enemy, as long as she has a say so in the matter.  Dragan hopes to avoid being enlisted in the army, I think he sees himself a bit of a coward.  The cellist now he seems to have no fear whatsoever to walk out each day, knowing he is putting himself in direct sight to be shot at.

MarcieIt seems that both she and Kenan are trying to hold on to some degree of "civilized life" -- a vision of themselves as civilized people.

Each of these characters are examples of how war makes you really think and decide personally what you are and are not capable of doing.  Do we really KNOW what we are capable of, unless we are forced to make decisions such as these?  I think they have to try to hold on to that degree of civilized life, or they are no better than their enemy.  I think veterans return home after being in the frontlines of war and struggle with differentiating how they are still civilized and not as the enemy they were forced to kill.  Post traumatic stress syndrome is a huge factor because of this very problem.  They come home and try to readapt to the life they left, and find they have changed.  War does this to soldiers.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 06, 2015, 06:01:20 AM
Two things struck me as I read Arrow on p82-83.

Quote
This is how she now believes life happens. One small thing at a time. A series of inconsequential junctions, any or none of which can lead to salvation or disaster...
Being a SciFi I immediately thought about time and how everything can change by changing just one small act. The newest theories of time and space have it that time is not an arrow but is fluid with ripples that can intersect and affect other ripples. The book I just read has time in a circular loop so that it repeats itself unless a past self leaps forward in time to effect a small change somewhere which in turn affects all that come after and ultimate before. A little weird. An infinite loop where things repeat themselves; the past is the future and the future is the past, over and over. This must be another Quantum "loopy" thing. Quantum anything is hard for me to follow.

Also, another "guns don't kill, people kill" statement:
Quote
A weapon does not decide whether or not to kill. A weapon is a manifestation of a decision that has already been made.
Has anyone noticed that the media are reporting more knife attacks now? The same could be said for knives.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 06, 2015, 10:32:51 AM
Ah, another reference to time on p83.
Quote
Whatever the cellist is doing, he isn't sitting i a street waiting for something to happen. He is, it seems to her, increasing the speed of things. Whatever happens will come sooner because of him.

Kenan's narrative about the Library sent me on another search. Since this article was written, the Library has reopened.
http://www.dw.com/en/burned-library-symbolizes-multiethnic-sarajevo/a-16192965
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 06, 2015, 11:26:02 AM
Bellamarie, I'm not so sure that Arrow has no problem killing people. She didn't enlist in the military as some other countrymen did. When she is first approached by Nermin to join the military, she says "I don't want to kill people." She is persuaded because she's told "You'd be saving lives. Every one of those men on the hills will kill some of us. Given the chance, they will kill all of us."  It's true that, although she is a complicated, thoughtful person she is neither a conscientious objector nor someone so fearful of killing that she would consider herself cowardly. She "was mildly surprised to find that the thought [of killing the shooters on the hill] didn't horrify her, that she could probably do it, and that she could probably live with it."

That's an interesting question you ask: "Do you think because a person sets their own standards to who they will kill, makes a difference as to their hands are clean?" What do we all think about that? Are there certain actions by soldiers that civilized society accepts and even rewards and other actions that are condemned?

Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 06, 2015, 11:32:01 AM
Frybabe, yes, now that I think about it, TIME seems to play a big role in this book. That example of the cellist making whatever will come sooner because of his playing seems important. Maybe we can look for more examples of the TIME theme. One is the time that Dragan and Kenan and others take waiting at various street crossings calculating when to get to the other side without being shot.

THanks for the article about the library at http://www.dw.com/en/burned-library-symbolizes-multiethnic-sarajevo/a-16192965.  The article reinforces some themes from the book. It opens with the sentences: "Some three million books and countless artifacts were destroyed when Sarajevo's National Library was burned to the ground 20 years ago. It was a clear attack on the cultural identity of a people."

There is also the statement near the end: ""People tried to destroy the matrix of coexistence," said Gojer, "But that was only temporarily successful because our history wasn't just written down in documents, but also lives in the people who live here."

Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 06, 2015, 03:05:43 PM
Frybabe"An infinite loop where things repeat themselves; the past is the future and the future is the past, over and over."

Interesting how I came in here and read your post and found this.  This is exactly what I have been discussing with my husband after reading our last few books that touch on wars.  From as far back as Biblical times, throughout all of centuries we are in a loop of repeating history.  It brought this quote to mind: 

 “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”   by George Santayana (The Life of Reason, 1905)

We seem to remember the past, we have books written about it, we have professors and teachers who have studied the past and taught our history, we have leaders and presidents who look back on the past in history, yet here we are....repeating it over and over again.  It is indeed,  An infinite loop where things repeat themselves.

Marcie, Yes, I think Arrow does have a conscious and prefers not to have to kill. I basically meant she does not have an issue killing the enemy, because she knows it is a situation of, kill or be killed.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on November 06, 2015, 05:04:37 PM
I have been trying to understand time for years: time as experienced by individuals. Where did we just read (in one of our discussions) that our notion of time as an arrow pointing in one direction is limiting our thinking?
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on November 06, 2015, 05:34:04 PM
I've had a few days of "too busy for me as a senior" having to do this and that - none of them for enjoyment particularly, but necessary.

Now back to the book and all the interesting posts.  I do like this book, I think I said I was fearful when I read the book and had to put it down in places.  I found it frightening and swore to myself to be careful crossing a street - hahaaaaa.

How did anyone survive such a siege?  What would I do?  If you were responsible for others, children, etc., you would have to take chances, wouldn't you?   

I'm such a coward.  I remember a time when my children were young and my husband was out of town; it was dark and I had the outside lights on.  I saw a man walking up our long driveway and was paralyzed by fear, could do nothing.  It turned out to be a neighbor and I almost  hugged him; it would have embarrassed both him and me if I had but I have never forgotten the fear I felt.

I must go back to the book.  Here we have a fellow, a cellist, who sits in the middle of the siege from the hills, an easy target.  It is hard to believe, in many ways, that the enemy did not kill him immediately as he was giving hope to those in the city.  Wouldn't most armies do away with that hope in order to decrease the incentive to fight?
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 06, 2015, 05:48:50 PM
Stephen Jay Gould wrote a book about the perception of time as related to science, Time's Arrow, Time's Cycle.  His concept of time was totally opaque to me.  Here's what Amazon's description says:

Quote
In Time's Arrow, Time's Cycle his subject is nothing less than geology's signal contribution to human thought--the discovery of "deep time," the vastness of earth's history, a history so ancient that we can comprehend it only as metaphor. He follows a single thread through three documents that mark the transition in our thinking from thousands to billions of years: Thomas Burnet's four-volume Sacred Theory of the Earth (1680-1690), James Hutton's Theory of the Earth (1795), and Charles Lyell's three-volume Principles of Geology (1830-1833).

Gould's major theme is the role of metaphor in the formulation and testing of scientific theories--in this case the insight provided by the oldest traditional dichotomy of Judeo-Christian thought: the directionality of time's arrow or the immanence of time's cycle. Gould follows these metaphors through these three great documents and shows how their influence, more than the empirical observation of rocks in the field, provoked the supposed discovery of deep time by Hutton and Lyell. Gould breaks through the traditional "cardboard" history of geological textbooks (the progressive march to truth inspired by more and better observations) by showing that Burnet, the villain of conventional accounts, was a rationalist (not a theologically driven miracle-monger) whose rich reconstruction of earth history emphasized the need for both time's arrow (narrative history) and time's cycle (immanent laws), while Hutton and Lyell, our traditional heroes, denied the richness of history by their exclusive focus upon time's Arrow.

Maybe sometime I'll have another crack at it.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 06, 2015, 10:11:32 PM
Yes, I think Arrow does have a conscious and prefers not to have to kill. I basically meant she does not have an issue killing the enemy, because she knows it is a situation of, kill or be killed.

Thanks for the clarification, Bellamarie. Yes, I agree that Arrow believes her actions are protecting herself and others from being killed. She also seems to fight against the hatred that she now feels for the enemy. In the early chapters we learn that she has changed her name [to Arrow] to protect her former self. "I am Arrow, because I hate them. The woman you knew hated nobody."
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 06, 2015, 10:21:47 PM
Ella, I hope you are able to cross your streets alright. I don't know how I would react to the dangerous street crossing. There doesn't seem to be any way to be "careful." Various pedestrians are using their own strategies...waiting...running in zig zags... strolling across...going by oneself or in a group. No one seems to have found a sure way to avoid the shooters. I don't think I have ever been in a "dangerous" situation. To be in one every day, multiple times a day, would be extremely stressful.
 
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 06, 2015, 10:37:45 PM
"I am Arrow, because I hate them.  The woman you knew hated nobody."

Interesting how she chose Arrow, a name of an inanimate object.  Although an arrow, can bring about death to animals and humans. 

in·an·i·mate
inˈanəmət/       adjective
not alive, especially not in the manner of animals and humans.
showing no sign of life; lifeless.


She states, "The woman you knew hated nobody." Does Arrow feel lifeless, and full of hate since the war?

Ella, your post made me think about my scare last year.  A couple of men came up to my house in the mid morning on a Saturday.  I saw them cross my lawn, and because I was still in my pjs and my dog was sleeping next to me I did not intend to answer my door.  Well, lo and behold they first knocked very hard on my door.  Mind you I do have a working doorbell.  It startled me, and I just sat still in my chair, then another very hard bang on my inside door.  Then I heard them ramming their shoulders against my door.  My dog started barking pretty ferociously.  I very quietly went upstairs and I looked out my upstairs window and they were heading to my neighbor's house.  I immediately called her, I told her to do NOT go to her door.  She said they were just at her door and were very suspicious with two different reasons, one to wash cars for money, another to help her with yard work.  She never unlocked her door and spoke to them through the glass.  They tried to get her to open her door.  I called 911 and they sent a police car out to our neighborhood immediately.  I also called my hubby who worked at the time just five minutes from our home and he came home, cruised the neighborhood to see if he could spot them.  As frightened as I was, and yes a bit frozen for a second, I knew I had to alert my neighbor lady, and call 911.  If my dog had not barked I think they would have broken into my house thinking no one was home. 
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on November 06, 2015, 10:53:38 PM
How scary!

I remembered where we were reading about time. It was when we discussed "For Love of Lakes." he said native Americans (he may have been talking about a particular tribe) have a different concept of time, and he likened time to a lake.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 06, 2015, 10:53:50 PM
JoanK and PatH, I'm familiar with some of the ideas of time as an arrow but not with the analysis in Gould's book. The idea that metaphor has a prominent role in the formulation and testing of scientific theories is very interesting and makes sense to me. Gould's application of that idea to the theories of the three scientists you mention is beyond me at this point!  My husband enjoys reading science books. I'm looking at the bookcase in front me and I see that he has a number of them with "time" in the title. You're inspiring me to take a look at some of them.

I'm skimming through some of the pages we've already read in the book and now I see that they are full of time references. An example: Dragan and Emina are talking. Dragan remembers when "There was order and it was unquestioned." Then in the blink of an eye, it all fell apart. Like many others, Dragan waited far longer for order to be restored than was logical. He tried to go about his life as though things were still normal..... But then, one day, he could no longer fool himself. THis wasn't a temporary situation, a momentary glitch in the system, and no one was going to fix it.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 06, 2015, 10:58:40 PM
Bellamarie, what a scary happening. Good thing your dog barked!!

JoanK, I too have read that different cultures have different concepts of time. A book about time might be interesting to read together at some point.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 07, 2015, 12:37:10 PM
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

November Book Club Online

The Cellist of Sarajevo
by Steven Galloway


(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/cellistofsarajevo/cellistsarajevosm.jpg) Our selection for November is an award-winning novel that explores the dilemmas of ordinary people caught in the crises of war and examines the healing power of art.

"In this beautiful and unforgettable novel, Steven Galloway has taken an extraordinary, imaginative leap to create a story that speaks powerfully to the dignity and generosity of the human spirit under extraordinary duress.." - ~ Cellist of Sarajevo Website.

Discussion Schedule
November 1 - 2  The Cellist and Part One

November 3 - 9  Part Two through the section on Keenan ending with "he knows he has a long way to before he is home again." (p 106 in my copy)

November 10 - 15 Rest of Part Two

November 16 - 23  Part Three

November 24 - 27  Part Four


Questions for November 1-2: (The Cellist and Part One)

What do we learn about the city of Sarajevo in these sections?
What are your initial impressions of the characters that Steven Galloway has created: the Cellist? Arrow? Kenan? Dragan?
What is the main task/activity that is the focus for each of them in this story?
What are some ways that each of them, and other citizens, have been affected by the war?

Questions for November 3-9: (First half of Part Two - to p.106)
What are some more details we learn about Arrow, Dragan and Kenan? Who do they interact with and how?
What seems to be each of their approaches or ways of dealing with the situation they are in?
What are some of the things that they say or we're told that they are thinking that made a special impression on you?
What words, metaphors, descriptions, do you think the author uses to effectively make his points?
Can you personally relate to anything in any of the characters or their situations?

Questions for November 10 - 15: (Second half of Part Two - from p.107 to end of Part Two)
In the beginning of the chapter on Dragan, we learn what he thinks motivates the cellist. Do you agree?
A lot happens to and around Dragan, Arrow and Keenan in the latter pages of Part Two. What actions stand out for you?
What themes do you notice in Part Two?

Questions for November 16 -: (Part Three)
In part Three, Dragan, Arrow and Keenan seem to undergo changes in their outlook. What do you notice about them?
What sentences in this part of the book seem especially important?


Questions for Part Four
How do the stories of the main characters seem to resolve in this last part? Were you surprised by any of their actions?
What are some of your thoughts and feelings as you reflect on this novel?

LINKS

 Background on the Adagio in G-Minor, including an audio file. (http://hubpages.com/entertainment/Who-Wrote-the-Adagio-in-G-Minor-A-Musical-Mystery)

Image of Vedran, Smailovic, Cello player in the partially destroyed National Library in Sarajevo, 1992. (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Evstafiev-bosnia-cello.jpg)

Sarajevo Survival Map 1992-96 (http://www.mappery.com/sarajevo-survival-map-1992-1996)
 

Discussion Leader:  Marcie (marciei@aol.com )


Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 07, 2015, 12:37:54 PM
A lot of scary stories.  I haven't ever experienced anything quite like Bellamarie's incident.  Hooray for the dog.

Bellamarie:
Quote
Interesting how she chose Arrow, a name of an inanimate object.  Although an arrow, can bring about death to animals and humans.
Yes, that's why she chose it of course--a weapon, straight, sure, true, and deadly.

Frybabe, I'd like to know more about that sci-fi book you mentioned--in the Sci-fi discussion if you don't think it belongs here.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 07, 2015, 05:32:36 PM
Yes, I'd be interested to learn about the science fiction book too, Frybabe. I'll take a look in the Science Fiction Books discussion.


I see that a Michio Kaku 4-part program about time, featured on the BBC a few years ago is available for viewing online at https://www.brainpickings.org/2011/03/28/bbc-michio-kaku-time/

I didn't see the program. When I have some time, I'll take a look  ;)
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on November 07, 2015, 05:42:42 PM
I've been leafing through the book, so many interesting stories to talk about.   Usually when I read I keep a highlighter close and use it for places I want to read again or comment; but my daughter wants the book and won't take it highlighted, so...............

Kenan watched a man catch a pigeon with a fishing pole and bread crumbs and twists its head off.  Reminded me of when I saw my grandmother twist off a chicken's head - that's a terrible sight for a young child to see; the headless chicken hops around for awhile until it flops over.  I've never forgotten it.  Out ancestors who lived on farms and traveled west did many things to survive and so should we in similar circumstances.

Arrow as a sniper.  For some reason it is difficult for me to read that she is a woman, an excellent shot.  Where did she practice shooting in peacetime?   Who with?  I want to know facts and, of course, will not.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on November 07, 2015, 05:46:56 PM
Does it remind one of the siege of London by the Germans?  We do know the facts there, bombs though, not sniper fire.  But the fear of being out in the open, the long days and nights, the suffering, the loss, would be the same.  For now, I can't think of any other sieges, but I know there have been many in history.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 07, 2015, 06:02:07 PM
EllaWhere did she practice shooting in peacetime?   Who with?  I want to know facts and, of course, will not.

Arrow was on the target shooting team at the University.  She was chosen special for these missions.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marjifay on November 07, 2015, 11:17:46 PM
Re the reason President Clinton gave for getting the U.S. involved in the Bosnian War, I found an interesting bit in a book I'm reading, The Balkans, by Misha Glenny.  Glenny quotes John Gunther from Gunther's 1938 book, Inside Europe:  "It is an intolerable affront to human and political nature that these wretched and unhappy little countries in the Balkan Peninsula can, and do, have quarrels that cause world wars.  Some hundred and fifty thousand young Americans died because of an event in 1914 in a mud-caked primitive village, Sarajevo.  Loathsome and almost obscene snarls in Balkan politics, hardly intelligible to a Western reader, are still vital to the peace of Europe, and perhaps the peace of the world."  Glenny says "One notable example was when agents of the Bulgarian government murdered the BBC Bulgarian Service journalist Georgi Markov with a poison-tipped umbrella on a bridge over the River Thames."  I had never heard of this, so looked for some information on it.  Wikipedia says "Markov originally worked as a novelist and playwright in his native country, then governed by a communist regime, until his defection from Bulgaria in 1969. After relocating, he worked as a broadcaster and journalist for the BBC World Service, the US-funded Radio Free Europe, and Germany's Deutsche Welle. Markov used such forums to conduct a campaign of sarcastic criticism against the incumbent Bulgarian regime. As a result of this, it has been speculated that the Bulgarian government may have decided to silence him, and may have asked the KGB for help. He was assassinated on a London street via a micro-engineered pellet containing ricin, fired into his leg via an umbrella wielded by someone associated with the Bulgarian secret police."

Marj

Which reminded me of a new book just out I want to read:  The New Tsar; The Rise and Reign of Vladimir Putin by Steven Lee Myers.  I think Putin has had a few people that he didn't like gotten out of the way permanently.

Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 07, 2015, 11:20:28 PM
Ella, yes, as Bellamarie says, we're told that Arrow was on the shooting team at her University. Since we also learn that her father was a policeman, it's probably not farfetched for her to know how to use a gun.

I too was fascinated by the story of the man "fishing" for pigeons. I don't like the idea of twisting the bird's head off. I'm sure that many people on farms or in poorer countries do that today. That story of the pigeon fisher was told with humorous dialog between Kenan and the man. THere are several instances of humorous exchanges. I think those make me feel closer to the parties involved.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on November 08, 2015, 12:54:39 PM
" Loathsome and almost obscene snarls in Balkan politics, hardly intelligible to a Western reader, are still vital to the peace of Europe, and perhaps the peace of the world."  - from Marj's post above.

That statement from a book published in 1938 a year before Germany marched into Poland to start WWII. 

Thanks, Marj, for that interesting post - an umbrella used for a poison dart by a KGB agent  to assassinate someone, sounds like a fiction novel, but true. 

Europe has been rather quiet for a few decades hasn't it?   Now if the Middle East would quiet down, settle some of its loathsome and obscene snarls, we might be able to relax.   And if Putin stays home.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 08, 2015, 01:20:17 PM
Ella, thanks for commenting on Marj's post. I was posting at the same time as you, Marj, and didn't see your post. I'm not sure what that sentence means? That the "snarls in Balkan politics are VITAL to the peace of Europe and perhaps the world."

 I tried searching for that phrase in google and found a book in which it is quoted at
 https://books.google.com/books?id=WZweAIJI0ZwC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119dq=Loathsome+and+almost+obscene+snarls+in+Balkan+politics,+hardly+intelligible+to+a+Western+reader,+are+still+vital+to+the+peace+of+Europe,&source=bl&ots=REkHghbb1q&sig=s0kVd-2OBpF3YkQF_Bb9nXOrm_8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAWoVChMI4YLV1LWByQIVQe1jCh0WHAaK#v=onepage&q=Loathsome%20and%20almost%20obscene%20snarls%20in%20Balkan%20politics%2C%20hardly%20intelligible%20to%20a%20Western%20reader%2C%20are%20still%20vital%20to%20the%20peace%20of%20Europe%2C&f=false

Click on the page number 119 if the whole page does not display.

The book is called "Imagining the Balkans" by Professor Maria Todorova Gutgsell and gives a different view of the Balkans. Wikipedia says about the book:

"If the Balkans hadn't existed, they would have been invented" was the verdict of Count Hermann Keyserling in his famous 1928 publication, Europe. This book traces the relationship between the reality and the invention. Based on a rich selection of travelogues, diplomatic accounts, academic surveys, journalism, and belles-lettres in many languages, Imagining the Balkans explores the ontology of the Balkans from the eighteenth century to the present day, uncovering the ways in which an insidious intellectual tradition was constructed, became mythologized, and is still being transmitted as discourse.

The author, who was raised in the Balkans, is in a unique position to bring both scholarship and sympathy to her subject. A region geographically inextricable from Europe, yet culturally constructed as "the other," the Balkans have often served as a repository of negative characteristics upon which a positive and self-congratulatory image of the "European" has been built. With this work, Todorova offers a timely, accessible study of how an innocent geographic appellation was transformed into one of the most powerful and widespread pejorative designations in modern history."
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 08, 2015, 03:54:39 PM
I'm reading All Quiet on the Western Front along with Cellist. What a horror to be bombarded not only by artillery and mortar shells, but with Mustard Gas. Also, I ran across a poet by the name of Siegfried Sassoon who was a veteran of WWI and a holder of the Military Cross.  The second stanza especially reminds me of Kenan as he tries to find the safest way around the city to the brewery to get water.

The Road to Ruin

My hopes, my messengers I sent
Across the ten years continent
Of Time. In dream I saw them go--

And thought, 'When they come back I'll show
To what far place I lead my friends
Where this disastrous decade ends.'

Like one in purgatory, I learned
The loss of hope. For none returned,
And long in darkening dream I lay.
Then came a ghost whose warning breath
Gasped from an agony of death,
'No, not that way; no, not that way.'
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marjifay on November 08, 2015, 06:27:52 PM
Yes, Ella, it's hard to imagine Europe as it was just before and during WW.  And since the breakup of the USSR, how awful it must have been for those poor people who had to live under communist controlled regimes.  It would be great to get rid of ISIS and have the Middle East become peaceful.  I have a book waiting to be read, Black Flags; The Rise of ISIS by Joby Warrick.  Has anyone read it?  I'll give my opinion after I've read it.
Marj
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marjifay on November 08, 2015, 06:38:10 PM
Yes, Marcie, I also puzzled over that sentence in Gunther's book, "snarls in Balkan politics are VITAL to the peace of Europe and perhaps the world."

I was not able to read that link you gave.  But it would seem that sentence should have said Getting rid of the snarls in Balkan politics is vital to the peace of Europe, etc. 

I will look for that book you mentioned, Imagining the Balkans.  I'm finding that area of Europe fascinating, at least during  the time we're talking about after that breakup of Yugoslavia.  Now I want to learn more about the Ottoman Empire. 

Marj
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 08, 2015, 06:46:26 PM
Here's another one of Sassoon's I rather like.  Sassoon was a rare example of a British poet who fought in WWI but wasn't killed.  (Decorated for bravery, though.)

Base Details

If I were fierce, and bald, and short of breath,
I’d live with scarlet Majors at the Base,
And speed glum heroes up the line to death.
You’d see me with my puffy petulant face,
Guzzling and gulping in the best hotel,
Reading the Roll of Honour. ‘Poor young chap,’
I’d say—‘I used to know his father well.
Yes, we’ve lost heavily in this last scrap.’
And when the war is done and youth stone dead,
I’d toddle safely home and die — in bed.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 08, 2015, 06:48:29 PM
And when we mention sieges, the one that comes to my mind is the WWII siege of Leningrad, but the details are so horrific I'm not going to go into it.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 08, 2015, 09:37:52 PM
Marj, yes the that snarls quote seemed to say the opposite of what I thought it would mean.

Frybabe and Pat, I became interested in the poetry of Siegfried Sassoon when I was in high school, although I'm sure I didn't understand him very fully. I remember that last line very well ... "And when the war is done and youth stone dead, I'd toddle safely home and die -- in bed." In seems that in this Sarajevo siege/war in the novel too there are some "higher ups" pulling the strings, although they are mostly in the shadows. Our main characters are among the puppets.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 09, 2015, 02:10:08 AM
Need to catch up but will post tomorrow - thank goodness the new section does not start till the day after tomorrow -

I think at the time we were appalled however, we had not been through yet the horrors of Afghanistan or Iraq and so it was a distant war that was fought by UN peace-keepers with their light blue Barret, pictured standing in full view from the tanks rolling in after this thing escalated beyond Sarajevo -

For the life of me I cannot remember where I read who and why the sectarian violence was lite after several generations of these different religions and cultures successfully living together - I need to find that...

I remember the talk at the time of this bombardment of Sarajevo how Sarajevo had been one of the most beautiful cities that hosted the Olympics and many who had been there for the Olympics were following each awfulness with the exact location and what their experience was when they visited during the Olympics.

The grounds of one of the Olympic stadiums
(http://i.imgur.com/KcC3uIF.jpg)  (https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSXBfugAoyD7laJiCVtNAdGE32r9l7iRXmGPb9WiRw3SnIE6Wa_IA)

(http://www.gordoncooper.com/Bosnia/Olympics84/olympics/pamph0.gif)
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 09, 2015, 03:54:59 AM
aha - another cobbled together nation - this time after WWII when Tito was the leader - Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia, Slovenia and Macedonia were all part of the Federal People’s Republic of Yugoslavia and so it was after Tito's death that Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic comes along and fires up the old nationalism of each area that had been divided along sectarian lines.

Looks like Bosnia goes back to the 9th century and at the time was Christianized. 

In 1345, the Serbian Empire was established: it spanned a large part of the Balkans. In 1540 the Ottoman Empire annexed Serbia.

The Serbian realms disappeared by the mid-16th century, torn by domestic feuds, and Ottoman conquest. The success of the Serbian revolution against Ottoman rule in 1817 marked the birth of the Principality of Serbia, which achieved de facto independence in 1867 and finally gained recognition by the Great Powers in the Berlin Congress of 1878.

Croatia first appeared as a duchy in the late 8th century and then as a kingdom in the 10th century. From the 12th century it remained a distinct state with its ruler (ban) and parliament, but it obeyed the kings and emperors of various neighboring powers, primarily Hungary and Austria.

Looks like Slovenia goes back to the 5th century

Montenegro was the Republic of Venice dominated the coasts of today's Montenegro from 1420 to 1797. In those four centuries the area around the Cattaro (Kotor) became part of the Venetian albania-montenegro, called in those centuries Albania veneta.

Part of today's Montenegro,called Sandžak, was under Ottoman control from 1498 to 1912, while coastal Montenegro was under Venetian control and rest of Montenegro was independent from 1516, when Vladika Vavil was elected as ruler of Montenegro by its clans, and it became Theocratic state.

And Macedonia is the Daddy of all nations with a 2500 year old history - and they were included by Tito into what was Yugoslavia!!??!! http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 09, 2015, 03:57:43 AM
OK found some of what I remember reading about the rational for this war - the background to ethnic diversity is that where folks will learn and adapt to a switch in languages, there is an emotional attachment that is basic to ethnicity. Religions are heavy in symbolism and so, communities that function with a variety of religions is a social construct, mobilized into a cohesive community by the elite.

Violent conflict along sectarian lines are provoked by the elite that will lead to a concern for security, inciting fear and the elite will answer by highlighting external threats.

"Elites use this strategy to shift the structure of domestic power and to fend off domestic challengers who seek to mobilize people against the status quo."

Ethnicity, religion, culture, and class are the elite's instruments of power and influence, central to their legitimacy and authority. Competing elites will selectively draw on the traditions and mythologies among those groups who they will mobilize to the elite's version of a political union.

“Control or ownership of mass media, especially television, bestows an enormous political advantage where the wider population is involved in politics, and is a key element in the success of such a strategy.”

The cultural differences between these Baltic nations is huge - some still retain aspects of Roman Law that came from the earliest settlers who were from Rome while others were more influenced by Byzantine, the two great powers competing since the earliest Christian governess.

"Milosevic exercised great power in the country. He had superior organizational skills and promoted people to senior positions whose main attribute was personal loyalty. He also understood the power of the media and was a skilled propaganda expert... He was an ambitious politician who had learned the methods of Communist power politics as he worked his way up the system. There was general economic malaise and discontent, which made people yearn for decisive leadership."

“Consciousness of ethnic difference turned into nationalist hatred only when the surviving Communist elites, beginning with Serbia, began manipulating nationalist emotions in order to cling to power.”

Looks like this same hodge podge of differences that made up the Baltic states cobbled into one government was doomed to failure unless held together by a strong man like Tito - which seems like a blueprint of Iraq and probably Syria.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 09, 2015, 09:57:16 AM
Thanks, Barbara, for all of that background information. We can continue to talk about the early part of Part Two as we move on to the second half of Part Two this week.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 09, 2015, 10:26:23 AM
Barb,  Good to have you back! 

Is there ever any other reasons for war then the same reasons as far back as Biblical times....religion, ethnicity, politics, power, and trying to possess more regions to attain more power through oil or bank accounts they seige when they overtake a region/government.

This is a pretty good piece explaining the causes of the Balkan wars.
http://uknowledge.uky.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1078&context=kaleidoscope

Winston Churchill mused that "the Balkan states produce more history than they can consume," while Otto von Bismark quipped that "if there is ever another war in Europe, it will come out of some damned silly thing in the Balkans." These two exemplary quotes illuminate the context of the strife that has typically been associated with the Balkan Peninsula, both by men that need no introduction in the political realm.

The events that lead to the rise of the First Balkan War were interconnected and exacerbated each other, making a linear, cause-and-effect progression difficult to follow. There were many actors vying for their own interests to parse out a simple account of what happened prior and during the war. All that can be determined is that a
mixture of outside influences from Austria-Hungary and Russia, a feverish spread of independence in the region in the years prior and in Albania during the conflict, as well as the Macedonian territory at stake, pushed the Balkan League into seizing the chance to cast the peninsula free from Ottoman control during its era of weakness.

I found a few minutes free between my granddaughter's all day volleyball matches this weekend, to read the last part of section two.  The characters and the events this author describes in this section seems surreal, I could imagine this book being non-fiction.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on November 09, 2015, 04:06:26 PM
BARB: very interesting to learn that the history of those states goes back so  far.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 10, 2015, 10:43:33 AM
The cellist (our title character) seems to be central to the story. We don't know very much about him although we learn some things in the opening of the novel. We're getting to know what affects he is having on people by their reflections and dialog with one another. In the beginning of this next section of Part Two, the chapter on Dragan, we learn what Dragan thinks motivates the cellist. Do you agree?
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 10, 2015, 10:15:26 PM
I think I didn't word that last question very well.

In the beginning of this next section of Part Two, the chapter on Dragan, we learn what Dragan thinks motivates the cellist. Do you agree? Do Dragan's views about the cellist seem plausible? What do we know about the fictional cellist created by Galloway?
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 11, 2015, 01:20:29 AM
Marcie I cannot even get into this next section the first 100 pages are so filled with awe and wonderment - so much I am having a difficult time even putting it all on paper - I am blown away with what Steven Galloway had done -

All that and I'm struggling to articulate my thoughts - as usual one bit of insight leads to another - I am still putting it all together - These characters each appear to represent one of the 5 stages of Grief - it is as if they represent the Grief for a nation almost as if they were a human nerve connection to Sarajevo - and then after the first bits that explain each in their individual stage of grief they seem to carry that designation, the attributes of that stage of Grief into a Wake, as each of their lives is a vigil to Sarajevo as mourners at a wake remembering its life.

The five stages, denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance are a part of the framework that makes up our learning to live without what or whom we lost.

The Cellist, who almost dream like continues with what was magnificent about life in Sarajevo - In the story he has not another name other then The Cellist making his character almost a whisper, a numb overwhelming expression of the incomprehensible. He silently and with great care in slow motion, with no sense of daring death, he raises his bow to his instrument.

DENIAL is the first of the five stages of grief. It helps us to survive the loss. In this stage, the world becomes meaningless and overwhelming. Life makes no sense. We are in a state of shock and denial. We go numb. We wonder how we can go on, if we can go on, why we should go on.

We try to find a way to simply get through each day. Denial and shock help us to cope and make survival possible. Denial helps us to pace our feelings of grief. There is a grace in denial. It is nature’s way of letting in only as much as we can handle.

As you accept the reality of the loss and start to ask yourself questions, you are unknowingly beginning the healing process. You are becoming stronger, and the denial is beginning to fade. But as you proceed, all the feelings you were denying begin to surface.


I really want to go back to each and quote the words and actions expressing their stage of grief but the task is great.

Arrow, filled with righteous anger - she is so consumed by her anger she is like the pointed projectile of her name - with one purpose, as if the destruction of Sarajevo was the bow that pulled the arrow, she has no other emotion or purpose. She says, "I don't kill to benefit myself, or you." Then why? - Back to the early part - the answer is there - summed up, "But she knows it isn't up to her. You don't choose what to believe. Belief chooses you." The Spanish interpretation of her name is 'warlike' - far from living in denial.

ANGER is a necessary stage of the healing process. Be willing to feel your anger, even though it may seem endless. The more you truly feel it, the more it will begin to dissipate and the more you will heal. There are many other emotions under the anger and you will get to them in time, but anger is the emotion we are most used to managing.

The truth is that anger has no limits. It can extend not only to your friends, the doctors, your family, yourself and your loved one who died, but also to God. You may ask, “Where is God in this? Underneath anger is pain, your pain. It is natural to feel deserted and abandoned, but we live in a society that fears anger.

Anger is strength and it can be an anchor, giving temporary structure to the nothingness of loss. At first grief feels like being lost at sea: no connection to anything. Then you get angry at someone, maybe a person who didn’t attend the funeral, maybe a person who isn’t around, maybe a person who is different now that your loved one has died. Suddenly you have a structure – – your anger toward them.

The anger becomes a bridge over the open sea, a connection from you to them. It is something to hold onto; and a connection made from the strength of anger feels better than nothing.We usually know more about suppressing anger than feeling it.

The anger is just another indication of the intensity of your love.


Kenan bargains and bargains - as if it is all a bad dream and Europe will come to save them. If he is the water carrier he may put off being called upon as a soldier where he thinks his chances of death are greater. He is afraid of dying but then his children; so for them he bargains, he must be spared - or if he walks this route - or stays out of the army - or is considered important because he gets good clean water - walks for clean water so they will not get sick and die should be worth something to the gods of fate - he keeps his promises to get water regardless the containers and the risk - the shoe never drops as he risks his fate crossing the bridge - all attempting to outwit the chance of a bullet ending his life.

He can see the deprivation of war and tease and joke as if he lives in a dream that he, like the pigeons have been caught while still trying to fly away. He thinks of the men in the hills "killing them slowly, a half a dozen at a time so there will always be a few more to kill the next day" and if can just escape being one of the dead pigeons.

He is not only true to the bargaining aspect of grief but true to his name, 'Kenan', a Turkish name so of course he had to go through the Turkish part of town. Although a Turkish name, its roots are Hebrew as in the son of Enoch and means Possession - the name Kenan also has roots in Arabic and Kabyle, the Berber tribes of northern Algeria and like the nomadic Berbers, he traverses across Sarajevo for water. 

BARGAINING Before a loss, it seems like you will do anything if only your loved one would be spared. “Please God, ” you bargain, “I will never be angry at my wife again if you’ll just let her live.”

After a loss, bargaining may take the form of a temporary truce. “What if I devote the rest of my life to helping others. Then can I wake up and realize this has all been a bad dream?”

We become lost in a maze of “If only…” or “What if…” statements. We want life returned to what is was; we want our loved one restored. We want to go back in time: find the tumor sooner, recognize the illness more quickly, stop the accident from happening…if only, if only, if only.

Guilt is often bargaining’s companion. The “if onlys” cause us to find fault in ourselves and what we “think” we could have done differently. We may even bargain with the pain. We will do anything not to feel the pain of this loss. We remain in the past, trying to negotiate our way out of the hurt.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 11, 2015, 02:45:47 AM
Dragan is showing all the signs of Depression. Interesting, found Dragan to be a Serbian name. Dragan means Sweetheart, Precious and Protector, an introverted soul, reserved and secretive, who tends to protect himself from a world that can make him feel a little uneasy at times.

Here is one of the links with a full explanation of the name Dragan -
http://www.first-names-meanings.com/names/name-DRAGAN.html

The soldiers in the hills are Serbian so like Sarajevo he is a true representation of the city where Serbs, Bosnians, Turks and Croats lived together - He remembers Sarajevo as it was when "People were happy." He names various areas of the city and how they are cut off, isolated. Everyday the Sarajevo he remembers slips away so that he realizes he was "no longer fighting the city's disappearance". He fears the time between being shot and dying; the thoughts people have while dying, seeing themselves ending. The destruction of the living is too much for him. He carries with him an unfocused sense of doom that risking a dangerous crossing is all there is till the next death, picked off by a sniper.

He believes his wife and son are safe and hopes they are happy - Wives who have escaped to other lands often send back divorce papers - he has not received any news and thinks how he is dependent on his brother-in-law, his sister's husband, and how his wife would not enjoy living with them and how when she left at night, he felt he would never see her again. 

He talks of the man who was in the camps during WWII and who killed himself the day the war began because after all they went through people had not learned from it.

DEPRESSION After bargaining, our attention moves squarely into the present. Empty feelings present themselves, and grief enters our lives on a deeper level, deeper than we ever imagined. This depressive stage feels as though it will last forever. It’s important to understand that this depression is not a sign of mental illness. It is the appropriate response to a great loss.

We withdraw from life, left in a fog of intense sadness, wondering, perhaps, if there is any point in going on alone? Why go on at all? Depression after a loss is too often seen as unnatural: a state to be fixed, something to snap out of.

The first question to ask yourself is whether or not the situation you’re in is actually depressing. The loss of a loved one is a very depressing situation, and depression is a normal and appropriate response. To not experience depression after a loved one dies would be unusual.

When a loss fully settles in your soul, the realization that your loved one didn’t get better this time and is not coming back is understandably depressing. If grief is a process of healing, then depression is one of the many necessary steps along the way.

His son's name is "Davor", an old South Slavic given name possibly derived from the prehistoric Slavic god of war, expressing joy or sorrow. The name is an accumulation of all the traditions in the area - it is a name popular among Croatian, Serbian, Slovene and Bosnian. Is this Steven Galloway's nod to hope for better future but just not now in Sarajevo.

Emina is a Bosnian name meaning - "an emotional, sensitive and nervous individual who seeks the company of others. While she is quite idealistic, she never completely loses her grip on reality and her feet remain firmly planted on the ground. Her imagination is extremely rich and contributes, for the most part, to making up for the dissatisfaction that she feels with her everyday life."
http://www.first-names-meanings.com/names/name-EMINA.html

I've finished only to page 92 - I'm in awe the characters, named and described by Steven Galloway that he creates to tell the story. I am expecting that the next round of the story as the last sentence on page 92 points to, is Acceptance.

I need to read further but I am imagining Emina to be part of Dragan's acceptance - Emina certainly shows a glass half full rather than a glass almost empty. Will Arrow connect with her other feelings and emotions, will Kenan find his courage or will he continue to bargain his way or will acceptance begin to creep in. 

"People often think of the stages as lasting weeks or months. They forget that the stages are responses to feelings that can last for minutes or hours as we flip in and out of one and then another. We do not enter and leave each individual stage in a linear fashion. We may feel one, then another and back again to the first one."
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 11, 2015, 03:14:17 AM
Do not know where in the book Acceptance will be featured but it is the 5th stage of Grief - Acceptance that Sarajevo will never be the city it once was and the lives of these characters will be changed.

ACCEPTANCE is often confused with the notion of being “all right” or “OK” with what has happened. This is not the case. Most people don’t ever feel OK or all right about the loss of a loved one.

This stage is about accepting the reality that our loved one is physically gone and recognizing that this new reality is the permanent reality. We will never like this reality or make it OK, but eventually we accept it. We learn to live with it.

It is the new norm with which we must learn to live. We must try to live now in a world where our loss, our loved one is missing. In resisting this new norm, at first many people want to maintain life as it was before our loss or, before a loved one died. In time, through bits and pieces of acceptance, however, we see that we cannot maintain the past intact.

It has been forever changed and we must readjust. We must learn to reorganize roles, re-assign them to others or take them on ourselves. Finding acceptance may be just having more good days than bad ones. As we begin to live again and enjoy our life, we often feel that in doing so, we are betraying our loved one.

We can never replace what has been lost, but we can make new connections, new meaningful relationships, new inter-dependencies. Instead of denying our feelings, we listen to our needs; we move, we change, we grow, we evolve. We may start to reach out to others and become involved in their lives. We invest in our friendships and in our relationship with ourselves. We begin to live again, but we cannot do so until we have given grief its time.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 11, 2015, 12:08:02 PM
I am so drawn to the character Emina, she shows such strength, bravery, compassion, kindness and hope even though she admits to being afraid.  This exchange with Dragan and Emina just tears at me:

"Do you think," Dragan asks, "it's worse to be wounded or killed?"  "I think," she says, her eyes moving toward the intersection. "it's better to be wounded.  At least that way you have a chance to live."  "It's not much of a chance," he says, wondering why.  What possible point could there be to this conversation?  But the words can't seem to stop.  It's like picking at a scab.  "What do you mean?  A chance is a chance."  "There's not a whole lot the hospitals can do for you.  They're low on supplies, low on people."  He doesn't know for sure that either of these things is true, but it seems likely.  "I think they are fairly well equipped.  It seems a lot of people are wounded and don't die."  He can see that his criticism bother her, that she doesn't want him to be right.  Her neck has gone red, and she's moved away from him, ever so slightly.  "If they're so well equipped, then why are you risking your life to deliver medicine that's almost a decade old?"  He's scored a direct hit.  She steps back, takes her hands out of her pockets and raises them to her chest.  For an instant Dragan wonders if she's about to strike him.  He wouldn't mind if she did.  He knows he deserves it. 

Emina then mentions the cellist and wonders why he goes everyday at 4:00 and plays and says she goes to hear him and says, "I don't know the piece he plays, what its name is.  It's a sad tune.  But it doesn't make me sad."  She asks, "Why do you suppose he's there?  Is he playing for the people who died?  Or is he playing for the people who haven't?  What does he hope to accomplish?"  "Who is he playing for?" she asks again.

"Maybe he's playing for himself," he says.  "Maybe it's all he knows how to do, and he's not doing it to make something happen."  And he thinks this is true.  What the cellist want isn't a change, or to set things right again, but to stop things from getting worse.  Because, as the optimist in Emina's mother's joke said, it can always get worse.  But perhaps the only thing that will stop it from getting worse is people doing the things they know how to do.


I don't know if I agree with Dragan's assessment of why the cellist plays.  I think it's more about feeling he must do something in honor of the friends he lost.  His music is what he knows best to do, so he plays it for them, and I am sure it soothes himself in some way.  It is familiar, something he needs at a time where everything makes no sense.

Emina admits, "I'm afraid, Dragan.  I'm afraid of everything, of dying, of not dying.  I'm afraid that it will stay like this forever, that this war isn't a war, but just how life will be."

I sense Emina is a spiritual person, someone who needs to have faith and hope.  I sense when she listens to the cellist play it gives her hope.  I think Dragan tries to hurt Emina because he hates he is weak, and resents her strength.  War seems to bring out the worst and best in people.  Dragan does not like seeing himself a frightened, weak man.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on November 11, 2015, 03:43:30 PM
That's interesting, BARB. could you give a source for your explanation of the five stages.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 11, 2015, 05:55:46 PM
 Elisabeth Kübler-Ross wrote about the stages of grief back in the 60s - a bunch of us came across her book in the 70s when we were also looking at and learning from Shehi's 9 stages of life that after she became age 65 she realized there was far more and added I think 3 or maybe 4 more stages.

There has been more and more written about the 5 stages of Grief so that many have been reading and relating our many experiences of loss to her five stages. Since the publication of her book and mostly in recent years there are several who have added to her 5 stages to make it 6 and a few even 7 stages - however, the original 5 still have the most tractions used by grief groups and among therapists.  It is also used by many hospice care givers, at times for the dying and as a tool to better help the closest family members.

Although Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, who died only about 10 years ago, was focused on the death of loved ones, since, and for at least the last 20 years or so many psychologist have written how it is the process we experience with all loss. At first it was only great loss and then came the realization we do this over smaller losses.

Some of the losses are the topic of conversation in many Al-anon meetings when someone we know and love becomes addicted and they no longer appear as the person we knew and loved and since the Iraq and Afghanistan war there are families who are mourning the changes in young men coming home seriously wounded physically or mentally from war and the loss of who they were before they shipped out is grieved.

I woke up one day and realized that I was experiencing these steps over my own aging as I loose physical capacity and cannot do something I could do a year or so ago - at first I feel a sense of denial and I am real big into bargaining - if I do this or that I will get back what I could do and then the realization the 'this or that' is more difficult or just as impossible because it is all part of my body aging. Up until a year ago I was still making decisions as if I was going to be hail and hearty for years and years to come. Many of the younger folks do not like hearing about the losses that come with aging and so they too are living in one of the grieving steps.   

I had bookmarked several web sites that explained how we react during these 5 stages and the one with the most concise definitions is what I used to quote from explaining how I see the format for this book. However if you google either, Elisabeth Kübler-Ross or the 5 stages of grief you will find many, many web sites.

Here is the web site I quoted from - http://grief.com/the-five-stages-of-grief/
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 11, 2015, 06:10:27 PM
Oh dear - it just hit me - I have assumed - but then maybe not -  I did assume we all were very familiar with the 5 stages of Grief and we mostly just needed a refresher to how we think and react in the various stages - therefore, including in my posts the quotes - so that we could compare the stage of thinking and behavior given to these Characters by Galloway

Having used Elizabeth Kubler Ross's books as a guide to get through my mother's death in the 80s and then my sons death 10 years ago and my best friend and I, together re-read Ross when her husband died so that when she died this past Spring I could almost quote the steps as I saw myself and her children in the process of grief - and then looking back I had other monumental losses in my life that only a few years ago I realized I was grieving those losses and so rather than scolding myself for not getting on with things I could let up accepting I was going through a process of grief. With that history that is how I assumed - and how this book hit me as soon as I started to read about Arrow.

And then the unusual names struck me as odd and started to look them up - sure enough they also are keys to these characters and I think to the overall message of what is symbolized by Sarajevo.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 11, 2015, 08:23:41 PM
Barbara, I appreciate your detailed analysis of the 5 stages of grief that you see in the characters in this novel. I can see that you've given this a lot of thought. Whether or not everyone sees this comparison with the 5 stages, there is much in your posts that can help each of us see the characters in a different light.

Barbara and Bellamarie, you both seem to be finding hope in Emina. She has doubts but she tries to keep them at bay. Of all of the characters we've met in the novel so far, is she the one who exhibits the most hope in her words and actions?
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 11, 2015, 09:25:24 PM
Emina then mentions the cellist and wonders why he goes everyday at 4:00 and plays and says she goes to hear him and says, "I don't know the piece he plays, what its name is.  It's a sad tune.  But it doesn't make me sad."  She asks, "Why do you suppose he's there?  Is he playing for the people who died?  Or is he playing for the people who haven't?  What does he hope to accomplish?"  "Who is he playing for?" she asks again.

"Maybe he's playing for himself," he says.  "Maybe it's all he knows how to do, and he's not doing it to make something happen."  And he thinks this is true.  What the cellist want isn't a change, or to set things right again, but to stop things from getting worse.  Because, as the optimist in Emina's mother's joke said, it can always get worse.  But perhaps the only thing that will stop it from getting worse is people doing the things they know how to do.

Bellamarie you've identified the place where Dragan says that he thinks the cellist is playing for himself. He further clarifies to say he means that the cellist is being true to himself, doing all that he knows how to do...being himself. He is playing his music in the face of shooters who are trying to keep the people of Sarajevo from living their lives -- in the final sense of killing them as well as in the sense of preventing them from living as they used to live day to day.

As you say, Bellamarie, he could also feel he must do something in honor, or memory, of the friends he lost... the people he saw killed as he was looking out his window.

He's playing the Adagio for 22 days, one for each of the people killed.

On the second page of the book we learn that every day "the cellist sits beside the window of his second-floor apartment and plays until he feels his hope return. He rarely plays the Adagio. Most days he's able to feel the music rejuvenate him.... but some days this isn't the case. If, after several hours, this hope doesn't return, he will pause to gather himself, and then he and his cello will coax Albinoni's Adagio out of the firebombed husk of Dresden and into the mortar-pocked, sniper-infested streets of Sarajevo. By the time the last few notes fade, his hope will be restored, but each time he's forced to resort to the Adagio it becomes harder, and he knows its effect is finite. There are only a certain number of Adagios left in him, and he will not recklessly spend this precious currency."

The cellist is spending 22 consecutive days of this precious currency. It seems an extraordinary action. I'm still thinking about it's possible meanings.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 11, 2015, 10:20:01 PM
I wonder Marcie the bible says things about the number 22... Because we know that there were far more than 22 killed and only a few, I think I read somewhere there were 7 killed the first day of the siege.

According to my book on traditional symbols in the section on numerology...

The number 22, is double eleven. Eleven is the symbol for disorder and chaos.

Jeroboam I, the first king of Israel after the kingdom split in two in 930 B.C., reigned for 22 years.
Ahab, the worst Israelite king, reigned for 22 years.

The Hebrew alphabet is made up of 22 letters, which are used to compose the Word of God. The word of God is called a lamp, thus it is the light by which we are to live. The word light is included 264 times in Scripture. When 264 is divided by 12, which represents divine authority, the sum is twenty-two, which represents light.

On the sixth day of creation God creates 22 things. There are twenty-two books in Leviticus, the Old Testament, which is the light of God for Israel.

It is said that light is used twenty-two times in the Gospel of John in which John he quotes Jesus: "I have come as a light into the world . . .".

And so maybe his playing the Adagio in G-minor for 22 days is an act of hope and belief in a God or the light of God.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 12, 2015, 07:03:51 AM
That's interesting Barb. It immediately brought to my mind Captain Ahab from Herman Melville's Moby Dick, not the best captain to be sailing under, and the white whale did cause chaos.

 I found this article about the author that is very interesting indeed. Starting with para. six, he explains what he hopes people will take away from reading the book. http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/books/2014/03/13/steven_galloway_and_the_lessons_of_the_cellist_of_sarajevo.html
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 12, 2015, 11:30:17 AM
Barbara, that's an interesting thought about the possible meaning of the number 22. Hope seems to be a major theme in the novel and "light" instead of darkness would certainly symbolize hope.

THank you for the link to that article, Frybabe. What Galloway says is in keeping with many of the thoughts that you all have expressed in our discussion so far.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 12, 2015, 11:40:53 AM
Barbara,  I was very familiar with the 5 stages of grief.  I learned them well when my precious mother died.  I never saw the comparison in the story or characters, but you linked them quite well.  I am sorry you have had to experience so many losses and are still in these stages.  I does indeed take years for some to get through them.  I'm pretty sure I went back and forth with some of them as well.

This book has definitely brought a sadness to me even though Emina is the one character who keeps me hopeful.  The cellist does not bring me hope, if anything I find him depressing.  Just me....
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 12, 2015, 12:10:51 PM
Frybabe,  Thank you for the article, it's good to see before reading this article, our discussion group was able to take from the book what the author intended for his readers.  Each time in this story Gallaway would mention one more building would be bombed that held art form, music and literature, it would sadden me.  These are the things that bring communities together to share in the expression of life, culture, religion, and diversity.  We learn much when we allow ourselves to be open to all forms of art expression.  I am afraid this war has overshadowed the importance of art, yet that I suppose in what war does to us.  The cellist is not going to allow the bombing to keep him from his love of his music.  He will honor and remember the 22 he cared for, and I am sure all those who have died a horrible death, by playing Albinoni’s Adagio for 22 days. His playing does seem to give others hope, by just watching him come to this place each day, and the music while it could be sad, gives them a sense of hope.  Gives them just a few minutes to not deal with the war torn city and lives. 
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 12, 2015, 02:39:50 PM
Thank you, thank you - Frybabe for the article that explains how the author connects the arts to our humanity - never made that connection before but it is a question front and center when all these folks want to take the arts out of the school curriculum - we are denying kids not only an expression of their humanity but we are training them to deny their humanity - so many, especially guys think it is so precious to make in fun of or make a put down remark about certain kinds of art - hmm - I can see that is nothing but a power move to tout their taste as superior.

And likewise a double thanks to you Bellamarie - your concern for my experiences with grief because of your post and the article that Frybabe brought to our attention I can see grief is also what keeps us humane - it is an necessary as eating and sleeping - can you imagine what we would be without feeling and walking the paths of grief - I can see now running away from grief as if it were an unpleasant part of life to avoid like a major road accident we end up getting stuck in one of the steps - and without seeing ourselves stuck in one of the steps of grief we can act without control not  understanding what pulls us to that behavior. And so I am realizing my grief experiences are a blessing that kept me human and I can see how avoiding one of the steps because I was taught it was unseemly is how I get stuck hmm.  ;) a lot of personal understanding not only from reading this book but from y'all  :-*
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 12, 2015, 03:14:48 PM
Barbara, now that you have made grief an awareness in this book as well as life, I am beginning to think about how yes, if we do not allow ourselves to experience these human emotions we would not be allowing our own self to actually feel human.  Much like the people during war time when they begin to lose faith and hope, and wonder if their lives as they knew them before the war will ever be again, when a loved ones dies I believe you do ask if your life will ever be the same without this person, especially if they were close and important to you.  People somehow manage to rebuild after wars, they have their memories to take with them into their new life, just as we have of those we lose in life.  We do indeed go on and begin living our lives without this person, with this loss, but the memories live on inside of us.  The pain eventually subsides, we cry a little less, days gather in between the last time we felt we would not be able to go on, and before we know it, we can smile again, sing out loud, actually laugh without feeling guilty, and yes, enjoy life.  It's the circle of life......our faith sustains us. 

I think as the cellist continues to play each day he too remembers those he lost, yet each day his life goes on without them.

As Gallaway states in the article Frybabe provided for us:   On the flip side of that pessimism is the theme that “human beings as a group are pretty optimistic. Crushing the human spirit is a pretty hard thing to do,” he said, citing Nazi concentration camps in the Second World War.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on November 12, 2015, 04:03:35 PM
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

November Book Club Online

The Cellist of Sarajevo
by Steven Galloway


(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/cellistofsarajevo/cellistsarajevosm.jpg) Our selection for November is an award-winning novel that explores the dilemmas of ordinary people caught in the crises of war and examines the healing power of art.

"In this beautiful and unforgettable novel, Steven Galloway has taken an extraordinary, imaginative leap to create a story that speaks powerfully to the dignity and generosity of the human spirit under extraordinary duress.." - ~ Cellist of Sarajevo Website.

Discussion Schedule
November 1 - 2  The Cellist and Part One

November 3 - 9  Part Two through the section on Keenan ending with "he knows he has a long way to before he is home again." (p 106 in my copy)

November 10 - 15 Rest of Part Two

November 16 - 23  Part Three

November 24 - 27  Part Four


Questions for November 1-2: (The Cellist and Part One)

What do we learn about the city of Sarajevo in these sections?
What are your initial impressions of the characters that Steven Galloway has created: the Cellist? Arrow? Kenan? Dragan?
What is the main task/activity that is the focus for each of them in this story?
What are some ways that each of them, and other citizens, have been affected by the war?

Questions for November 3-9: (First half of Part Two - to p.106)
What are some more details we learn about Arrow, Dragan and Kenan? Who do they interact with and how?
What seems to be each of their approaches or ways of dealing with the situation they are in?
What are some of the things that they say or we're told that they are thinking that made a special impression on you?
What words, metaphors, descriptions, do you think the author uses to effectively make his points?
Can you personally relate to anything in any of the characters or their situations?

Questions for November 10 - 15: (Second half of Part Two - from p.107 to end of Part Two)
In the beginning of the chapter on Dragan, we learn what he thinks motivates the cellist. Do you agree?
A lot happens to and around Dragan, Arrow and Keenan in the latter pages of Part Two. What actions stand out for you?
What themes do you notice in Part Two?

Questions for November 16 -: (Part Three)
In part Three, Dragan, Arrow and Keenan seem to undergo changes in their outlook. What do you notice about them?
What sentences in this part of the book seem especially important?


Questions for Part Four
How do the stories of the main characters seem to resolve in this last part? Were you surprised by any of their actions?
What are some of your thoughts and feelings as you reflect on this novel?

LINKS

 Background on the Adagio in G-Minor, including an audio file. (http://hubpages.com/entertainment/Who-Wrote-the-Adagio-in-G-Minor-A-Musical-Mystery)

Image of Vedran, Smailovic, Cello player in the partially destroyed National Library in Sarajevo, 1992. (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Evstafiev-bosnia-cello.jpg)

Sarajevo Survival Map 1992-96 (http://www.mappery.com/sarajevo-survival-map-1992-1996)
 

Discussion Leader:  Marcie (marciei@aol.com )



the article was very interesting. I think this is very important:

'“One [theme I want readers to take away from the book] is to understand what happens to the world and us as individuals when we abdicate responsibility for who we hate. As individuals we’re very careful about whom we choose to love. We don’t typically let governments and huge corporations tell us who to love and when they try to, we become very suspicious. We are not as parsimonious about hatred,” he [the author]says. '

Joan
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on November 12, 2015, 07:42:13 PM
I would wonder at a man playing an instrument in the street, wouldn't we all?   Whether it be peacetime or war!  I can't conceive of it, we would all think the man is mad!

And they wondered in Sarajevo:  "Who is he playing for?......Maybe it's all he knows how to do and he's not doing it to make something happen" - Dragan says to Emina

And Emina says that Jovan thinks the cellist is crazy.  "It's an act of futility and he's going to get himself killed."

It's all so terrible and yet it's all so hopeful and so wonderful, you feel love here.  There are passages that speak to me:

Dragan's wife was in labor for 36 hours and he was terrified, but then his son was born and "his small cry emerging from a bundle of blankets sounded to Dragan like music."  Afterwards he had an overwhelming feeling of benevolence, not just for his son, for the world around him.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 12, 2015, 08:11:30 PM
That's so important, JoanK.  People too easily let others tell them who to hate.

The thing that impressed me even more strongly is how much the besiegers are stripping the humanity from people.  Look at Dragan and Emina.  He meets her by chance, and it takes some minutes of conversation before he is once again seeing her as a real person, and they bond warmly.  They talk a while, then she risks crossing the street before he does, and is shot.  He is paralyzed with fear; he can't go to help her, even after it's obvious that she's still alive.  Does that destroy what went before?  Make him less human?

I think this is what the cellist is doing--asserting his humanity.  This is what he is; he can take the wonder of music that someone created and bring it alive through his playing.  This is necessary--music unheard doesn't quite exist, it's just a promise.  He's not going to let anyone take that away from him.  He's playing for his dead friends, asserting their worth, for the people who hear him, and are reminded of what it is to be human, and for himself, to show that he's still there as a person.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 12, 2015, 08:15:58 PM
Ella, you posted while I was writing.  I agree; there's a lot of love here, even in the middle of horrors.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 12, 2015, 08:59:41 PM
I'm reading and re-reading some of your recent posts here. This novel portrays many emotions. Bellamarie and Barbara, you empathize with the grief that the people are experiencing. Ella, you say you can feel the love. Joan and Pat, you caution us to be alert to the hatred that can be one kind of response to the actions of the shooters.

Joan your quote from Frybabe's article about the author wanting us to understand what happens to the world and us as individuals when we abdicate responsibility for who we hate seems like it's one of the major themes of the book. Pat, I like the way you phrased what the cellist is doing -- "asserting his humanity. This is what he is; he can take the wonder of music that someone created and bring it alive through his playing.  This is necessary--music unheard doesn't quite exist, it's just a promise." Instead of hating, the cellist's response to the killing of those people is to play music. People are coming from everywhere in the city to hear him play and some of the shooters can see and hear the music too. Does the music transform the listeners' feelings of hatred for a while?

Ella, you remind us that Dragan recalls the "music" he heard at his son's birth. "His small cry emerging from a bundle of blankets sounded to Dragan like music."  Afterwards he had an overwhelming feeling of benevolence, not just for his son, for the world around him.

Dragan then reflects that if both sides could just hold on to that feeling of benevolence, they would not be fighting each other.

As we read, let's watch for ways that the characters each find to fight against or replace the hatred they feel, the hatred  which is keeping them from the way they were before the war or how they want to be.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 12, 2015, 09:48:20 PM
I do not think it makes him less human - as humans we have terror and fear along with bravery and courage - I also get the message from the story and the news clip that it is the arts that reminds us of our humanity and some will champaign the pursuance of their humanity by expressing their art but to be human is also is to have terror and fear. So to me I think Dragan is being as human as the Cellist - in fact to me it is a toss up - the Cellist is not seeing his risk as more than a chance where as, Dragan's chance is greater knowing the sniper can pick him off.

The Cellist is like the many who during battle exhibit bravery that when they receive a medal they all acknowledge it was instinctive and so for us to think only the brave further our collective humanity may not be honoring the humanity within each of us.

As to Dragan - we know that fear and anxiety are a normal part of life - However, he has seen and describes those who were killed crossing a particular street "as though they were marionettes and their puppeteer has fainted." That suggests to me he must have seen death by snipers and therefore, most probably is experiencing Post-traumatic Stress Disorder - he is not alone, just as not every soldier returns with the same identical symptoms of PTSD and some come back with medals of bravery that others fell apart leaving them to battle PTSD.

Quote
Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) - This clinical condition can be traced to a definable, traumatic event in the individual's life.  The individual experienced, witnessed, or was confronted with an event or events that involved actual or threatened death or serious injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others.  It might have occurred within a soldier who served time in a war zone or after witnessing a shooting, being a rape or street crime victim, or living through some natural disaster. The experience must have produced intense fear, helplessness, or horror. Either shortly thereafter or at some later date, the person may experience flashbacks, recurrent and intrusive recollections of the event, feelings of detachment, guilt, sleep problems and a variety of somatic symptoms.


And so to me our humanity is no less for those who fall apart with intense fear versus those who instinctively react with great courage and bravery. As the saying goes there are some who when caught in the headlights of life freeze, others run and still others fight. 

Therefore, I see Dragan is expressing his humanity as does the Cellist with love for his music because bottom line what kind of people are we if we can only react without feelings. That would mean we could not love unless, we think we can only access good feelings rather than an intense feeling of fear. Doesn't work that way.

As our hearts go out to Dragan then we can feel compassion in our hearts and accept our own humanity in the face of fear. This scenario of Emina crossing and being shot is the tragedy of war - an event causing great suffering, destruction, and distress, such as a serious accident, crime, or natural catastrophe as well as, a character dealing with tragic events and having an unhappy ending, and a main character, who is brought to ruin or suffers extreme sorrow.

Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 13, 2015, 07:10:58 AM
Two of the symptoms that pop out into my mind, and are part of the spectrum of PTSD symptoms, are dissociation and depersonalization disorder (one of the more severe dissociative disorders). Depersonalization is not directed at another person as you might think, but a feeling of being disconnected to your own body, thoughts, or emotions, something like being an observer watching yourself in a dream or movie. I think at least one of the characters used the word surreal and that they felt like what they were experiencing was not real. Then there are the daydreamy thoughts that pop up which some of the characters report and are horrified at themselves for thinking them.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 13, 2015, 11:02:31 AM
Barbara and Frybabe, you're reminding us of the multi-dimensional aspects of being human beings living in such horrific and stressful circumstances.  It would seem that Post-traumatic Stress Disorder would be prevalent in many of the people and, since the traumatic events are ongoing, it must be very difficult to find ways to deal with them. Frybabe you mention "the daydreamy thoughts that pop up which some of the characters report and are horrified at themselves for thinking them." Those parts of the novel seem to especially make some of the characters more real for me, for example when Dragan argues with Emina, saying confrontational things out loud and aghast at himself for doing it but unable to stop, like "picking at a scab." 
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 13, 2015, 10:01:09 PM
In the latter pages of Part Two, a lot happens to and around Dragan, Arrow and Keenan. As you read the chapters about these characters in this section, what actions stand out for you?
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 14, 2015, 07:38:10 AM
During my reading of All Quiet on the Western Front last night, I ran across a passage where the author is reminiscing (during a very heavy bombardment) about his childhood. He discovered that all his reminiscences during battle have been featured two elements calm and silence. While he acknowledges that these two things are the exact opposite of that he is experiencing, he also wrote these words, "Their stillness is the reason why these memories of former times do not awaken desire so much as sorrow -- a strange, inapprehensible melancholy. Once we had such desires -- but they return not. They are past, they belong to another world that is gone from us." He wrote more, but you get the picture.

We see these memories popping up unbidden in our characters, a longing to go back to those former days, the knowledge that things have changed and will never be the same.  And even if they could go back, they themselves have changed such that they would feel estranged from that former world. The passages explain why many returning vets are uncomfortable. We haven't changed, but they have. The passages bring home this and the bonding that those who experience the horrors of war together share.

The horrors in Paris last night have changed the world for those who got caught in it. When I returned home from the library last evening to the news reports, my first emotion was anger, then sorrow. Once again, the targets were venues of social gatherings: the stadium, the concert hall, the restaurants. Targets of opportunity for the greatest disruption of social cohesiveness. I noticed that some of the commentators were by turns calm and shaking. Geraldo Rivera's daughter was at the stadium when the attacks began. He barely held it together at times during his report. This was not Afghanistan, this was Paris; this was not some stranger, but his daughter who was in grave danger.

I am almost speechless. I am still angry. Will there ever be an end to wars?

Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 14, 2015, 11:58:50 AM
Frybabe, you say "
We see these memories popping up unbidden in our characters, a longing to go back to those former days, the knowledge that things have changed and will never be the same.  And even if they could go back, they themselves have changed such that they would feel estranged from that former world. The passages explain why many returning vets are uncomfortable. We haven't changed, but they have. The passages bring home this and the bonding that those who experience the horrors of war together share."

Your post captures so much of the feelings that underlie the novel.

Your bringing the horrors experienced during the siege of Sarajevo up to date with reference to the Paris attacks makes me understand those emotions even more.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on November 14, 2015, 03:31:37 PM
Good post, Frybabe.  An end to wars?  I doubt that, it goes on and on and hardly a family that has not been touched by war in one way or another.

Aarrow reflects that in the middle of the struggles are the criminals, those that would make profit from war and isn't it always so.  And rarely do we hear from the commentators of these individuals or companies who make millions from wars and, consequently as Arrow states, have power which is never given  up easily. 

Am I too suspicious in thinking of our own recent wars, the influence of the weapons industries, the power of the Pentagon, etc.  Billions of dollars are spent by the government for all kinds of contracts and it goes on and on.   President Eisenhower warned of the dangers of the military-industrial complex before he died and who better to know whereof he speaks. 
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 14, 2015, 08:59:03 PM
To answer your question Frybabe.... a resounding NO!  I don't think there will ever be an end to wars.  We have too many people with hate inside them, that are willing to die in the name of that hate. 

My heart goes out to Paris.  It's not sad enough reading this book, but now to see the pictures of Paris, I could not help but imagine Sarajevo under attack and how the people felt there.  They will go on, but their lives will never be the same. 

Ella, I wonder about the gains countries make off of war as well.  Wasn't there reports American Ambassador Stevens was in Libya selling arms to Syrians when the embassy was attacked and he was killed?  And there was reports Dick Cheney made profit during Iraq war with Halliburton.  I'm sure deals go back to all wars.  We just finished reading about munitions and weapons being transported from New York harbor to Great Britain on the Lusitania passenger ship, a huge profit for the manufacturers here in the United States.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 15, 2015, 01:56:34 AM
Reading this as we read about the Paris attacks this bit from one of the Parisian Journalists that so caught the attention of editors in the US it was translated. For sure we are reading this message in out book with the story of Sarajevo...

Quote
"Zero risk" doesn't exist.

Our so-called "modern" society believes in the principle of "zero." Zero imperfections, zero stock, zero error, zero risk! It's a huge farce, it doesn't exist, despite all the speeches that you might hear in medicine, politics, and especially, in management! Life is all about risk! It's about knowing how to accept it; "risk management" is nothing more than a day to day learning process, often painful, and always delicate. There is no truly comprehensive insurance! Faced with each decision, personal or professional, we are alone as individuals with our choices and our doubts, and these attacks cruelly remind us of this! That's what being human is about.

Accepting vulnerability is a strength.

Our society favors strength, commitment, competition, power, ostentation..."values" that only lead to insult, to war, and to these attacks that claim to be demonstrations of strength, and that seek to escalate violence.

These attacks show us that we are vulnerable. Don't deny it! Vulnerability isn't an admission of weakness! We can turn it into a strength! We must turn it into a strength! It's by changing the hierarchy of values that we will steer the world toward change.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 15, 2015, 12:51:27 PM
Ella, the references in the book to the Black Market and to criminals profiting from the war surprised me. It's not that I haven't seen movies or heard news about people profiting from wars and other fighting but I hadn't thought about it in the context of this book. It just brought home how many opportunities for choices (good and bad) there are in wars.  Bellamarie, you make that point too with reference recent and past events in various wars.

Barbara, you're right. That excerpt from the Parisian journalist could have been written about the people in the book we're reading. "Life is all about risk! It's about knowing how to accept it; "risk management" is nothing more than a day to day learning process, often painful, and always delicate. There is no truly comprehensive insurance! Faced with each decision, personal or professional, we are alone as individuals with our choices and our doubts, and these attacks cruelly remind us of this! That's what being human is about."

That seems to be another central theme of this novel, keeping oneself aware of individual choices, even in extreme circumstances when it seems that all choice is being taken away.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 15, 2015, 02:55:17 PM
I am at a point where I think I want to finish the book and move on to something a little more uplifting for the coming Thanksgiving holiday and Christmas season.  With the attacks on Paris and Lebanon this past Friday, I think I have had enough sadness to deal with. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-3316577/Lebanon-mourns-41-killed-bomb-attack-Hezbollah-bastion.html
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 15, 2015, 05:00:15 PM
The author believes that the message of this book is one of hope.

If everyone agrees with moving on, we can go on to Part Three tomorrow and start Part Four on November 20 and be finished by November 23.

Or, we can do Part Three and Part Four (which is very short) together and be finished talking about the book over the next several days.

What would you all prefer.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 15, 2015, 05:43:01 PM
Marcie we all have our druthers on timing - my druthers would be to start part 3 tomorrow and stay with it through Wednesday than on Thursday pick up part 4 and finish up on Saturday or Sunday the 21st or the 22nd leaving it open for folks to add anything till the 25th.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 15, 2015, 08:25:18 PM
Thanks, Barbara. Anyone else have a preference?
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 15, 2015, 08:48:58 PM
Since the two next parts are short I think we could cover them this week and be done by the weekend to give us time for Thanksgiving preparations and to regroup our sad thoughts into happy thoughts.  The book may be about "hope" I don't dispute that I see it, but it has really gotten me depressed reading it even before Paris attacks.  Like Barbara suggested, you could keep it open for further comments.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 15, 2015, 10:50:24 PM
Thanks, Bellamarie.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 16, 2015, 11:04:30 AM
I went ahead and finished the book. I see the characters have gotten past their wishfullness and detachment from their current reality. I sense a new determination to move forward, and a refusal to be cowed by the men on the hill. In Arrow's case, she begins to see her enemy as not so different than herself with families, friends and once normal lives, like her. She can't hate them anymore. She also refuses to be bullied into doing something to which she is ethically and morally opposed. Dragan and Kenen are more willing to put themselves at risk to help others. While they still fear for the future, themselves and their families, they are no longer overwhelmed by their fears and wishful thinking.

A comparison between Arrow and Paul (narrator of All Quiet on the Western Front): Arrow began to see the sniper as human rather than an object to be destroyed. A similar event took place in AQWF where Paul made his first close contact kill, a Frenchman. They both found themselves in the same shell hole. The Frenchman did not die right away. Paul was beset with remorse and horror at what he had done, but rationalized it as a him or me situation. It did not, however, reduce his feelings of guilt, made worse when he saw the picture of the fellow's wife and child that the man carried. That made it all the more personal. Arrow didn't have that up close encounter, but she wonder why he didn't shoot when he had plenty of opportunity, but she did see him with his eyes closed listening to the music. The sniper and the French Infantryman became human.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 16, 2015, 11:12:00 AM
Frybabe, you say "I sense a new determination to move forward, and a refusal to be cowed by the men on the hill." I see that too. Our characters are becoming less "victims" and taking what responsibility they can for their choices under the circumstances. I appreciate your comparison of Arrow and Paul. Arrow's sniper was sent to kill the cellist but he doesn't want to fulfill that role. He's moved by the healing or uniting power of the music. Arrow sees him as a fellow human being.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 16, 2015, 06:05:42 PM
I have a question....on page 156 Emina says to Dragan, "I wanted to see the cellist play today.  It's his last day, Jovan says he's finished after this."

If the cellist has not spoken to anyone, how did Jovan know this is the last day the cellist would play?  I understand the cellist was going to play 22 days to honor his 22 friends who died in the breadline, but, no one else knew this, at least the author did not reveal anyone had ever conversed with the cellist.

I too have finished the book and agree, the characters have decided they will determine their own fate, rather allow the men on the hill to control their day to day living through fear of dying.  They have decided they want to live and be a part in the rebuilding of Sarajevo, but if that is not their fate, then until the war is over they are not giving into the fear any longer.  Arrow decides to disobey the orders to kill a civilian, just for the sake of it, and in doing so she knows she is determining her fate/future. 

These sections remind me of a picture I saw on Facebook today of the streets filled with people in Paris, all deciding they will stand in solidarity sending a message to ISIS they will not give into the fear. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/12/world/europe/paris-march-against-terror-charlie-hebdo.html?_r=0

(http://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/01/12/world/JP-PARIS-1/JP-PARIS-1-superJumbo.jpg)
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on November 16, 2015, 06:37:05 PM
Where are we in the book?  I get away for a couple of days and forget.  The Paris attackers have some similarities to the terrorists in this book - to kill, to instill fear and terror.  Why?  What is it either of them want to achieve?

I can't remember if the book ever makes it clear what the war is about? 

Beginning Part Three Dragan has a lot of thoughts about fear and death.  Somewhere he says your thought or fear of death depends upon what you think your life is worth or whether you want to stay in the world.

Personally I think this depends upon a lot of factors.  We all want life because it is all we know, but  I think our fear is lessened as we reach the "golden years" such as they are called.  Our children are grown, our bodies are deteriorating, we have more friends and relatives "on the other side of the river" than in past years, leaving memories and a few lonely days and nights.  I am not morose, just factual.

There were trenches dug in America, I believe, in our Civil War and perhaps there are stories there that can compare to the experiences felt by the characters in this book.  Dragan was captured and made to dig holes and for while he felt it made little difference whether it was the men on the hills who were shooting or the defenders who killed him. 

 
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 17, 2015, 01:20:04 AM
Ella,  We are reading through to the end part 3 & 4, and discussing it this week. 
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 17, 2015, 01:26:12 AM
Bellamarie, that's a good question about how Jovan would know it's the cellist's last day. Perhaps it was an intuitive guess after 21 days of music. I agree with you that the characters have decided they will determine their own fate, rather allow the men on the hill to control their day to day living through fear of dying.

Ella, we're on Part Three right now but many people seem to have finished the book so we can probably talk about Part Four also and the book as a whole this week.

You mention Dragan's thoughts in the beginning of Part 3. I think you've pointed to one of the important sentences in the book. "Emina will survive.. but if she didn't... wouldn't it be better to get one last look at the world, even a gray and spoiled vision, than to plunge without warning into darkness?
What makes the difference, he realizes, is whether you want to stay in the world you live in. Because while he will always be afraid of death, and nothing can change that, the question is whether your life is worth that fear."

I appreciate your thoughts about how our reactions to and thoughts about our own mortality change for many of us people. And I agree that conditions such as age and health need to be factored in.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 17, 2015, 10:49:30 AM
marciePerhaps it was an intuitive guess after 21 days of music.

The author has written this story not giving us a name for the cellist, and no words spoken from his mouth to anyone, yet Emina says, "I wanted to see the cellist play today. It's his last day, Jovan says he's finished after this."

How could it be an intuitive guess on Jovan's part?   No one but the cellist would even know he lost 22 friends in the bread line.  Did the author not know having Emina make this statement to Dragan it would cause question as to how Jovan would know this?  It may not seem relevant to some readers, but for me it is something that stood out as I read it.  The cellist never speaks throughout the entire story, so he did not announce he would play for 22 days. Dragan questions Emina earlier as to why she thinks the cellist is playing because neither of them have any knowledge he lost the 22 friends.

Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 17, 2015, 11:00:45 AM
Yes, it's possible the author overlooked this and made a mistake in giving those words to Emina. However, the news of 22 people killed in one day probably spread across the town so it could be that someone listening to the cellist might make a guess at why he was playing starting the day after the deaths. I think that Emina and Jovan know that the musician is playing after the strike that killed those people, whether or not he knew them personally. He's playing right where it happened and some people are bringing flowers as he plays. There is still the question in Emina's mind of why he would decide to take action by playing a musical instrument.

 In any case, I think that the author needs the shooter and Arrow to know the last day of music in order to advance the plot and give the shooter and Arrow a last chance to follow their orders.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 17, 2015, 11:15:53 AM
marcieIn any case, I think that the author needs the shooter and Arrow to know the last day of music in order to advance the plot and give the shooter and Arrow a last chance to follow their orders.

I realize the author needed a time frame, but because he never allows the cellist to speak, it is a huge leap for me to assume others could decipher the days the cellist would play. I guess it's a question I will ponder, or just accept since the book is being narrated.   


I found it ironic how the author ties the beginning of the story to the very ending with personal items in the pile.   

In the very first and only chapter labeled "the cellist" the author tells us the cellist doesn't know what is about to happen.  Initially the impact of the shell won't even register.  For a long time he'll stand at the window and stare.  Through the carnage and confusion he'll notice a woman's handbag, soaked in blood and sparkled with broken glass.  He won't be able to tell whom it belongs to.  Then he'll look down and see he has dropped is bow on the floor, and somehow it will seem to him that there's a connection between these two objects.  He won't understand what the connection is, but the feeling that it exists will compel him to undress, walk to the closet, and pull the dry cleaner's plastic from his tuxedo. 

In the end of the story, on the last day, the cellist plays, sits on his stool for a long while, he cries.  One hand moved to cover his face while the other cradled the body of the cello.  After a while he stood up, and walked over to the pile of flowers that had been steadily growing since the day the mortar fell.  He looked at it for a while, and then dropped his bow into the pile.

After the cellist disappeared, Arrow went down to the street, not caring whether anyone saw her.  She looked at the cobblestones, the shattered windows, the pile of flowers.  She didn't think of anything, couldn't think of anything she hadn't already gone over a thousand times.  So she just stood there.  The cellist wouldn't be back tomorrow.  There would be no more concerts in the street.  She was disappointed it was over, Arrow leaned down and placed her rifle beside the cellist's bow.

So we had a woman's blood soaked handbag, the cellist's bow, and Arrow's rifle left in the pile, all signifying personal items that will no longer be needed.  Are we to assume the cellist dies, as the woman and Arrow did as well?  In the "afterword" the author writes,  His actions inspired this novel, but I have not based the character of the cellist on the real Smailovic', who was able to leave Sarajevo in December of 1993 and now lives in Northern Ireland.

Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 18, 2015, 11:09:42 AM
Bellamarie, yes, I'm not sure what the cellist dropping his bow into the pile of flowers means. Possibly, he's spent all of the adagios (we're told in the beginning that they are a precious currency and he only has a limited number in him) in trying to express hope, for himself and, we learn from other's reactions, for them also. He has completed his task. Arrow, too, has completed hers. She has saved the cellist and others through her actions with her rifle. She is unwilling to kill anymore.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 18, 2015, 12:20:27 PM
blood soaked handbag, the cellist's bow, and Arrow's rifle - I see sacrifice, hope, and anger - not yet sure of the meaning - still reading...
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 18, 2015, 08:32:54 PM
I think the three items represented death

They were all no longer needed and ended up in the pile of rubble & ruins.  The woman died no longer needing her handbag, Arrow knew she would no longer use her rifle death was her only outcome, and the cellist no longer would need his bow....... as the author states the real cellist was able to leave Sarajevo and lives on. 
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 18, 2015, 10:45:47 PM
Those symbols likely have multiple meanings. We can share more as we think about them, especially the two that were voluntarily dropped into the flowers.

We haven't talked much about the music. I confess that I don't know very much about music and I know that some of you do. I read an interview with the author in which he shares something interesting about music and the structure of this book.

"
A: The book has three main characters because of The Cellist's piece he plays. The Cellist plays Albinoni's Adagio, which is a piece that was reconstructed from a sonata. I'm an incredible nerd about these sort of things, so I thought, why not write a book that takes an adagio and turns it back into a sonata.

The book is structured like a trio sonata, which is a sonata in which there is one melody and two main parts and if you were to play any one of the parts on its own, it would sound like its own piece of music.

With these, they're actually suppose to sound like they're on their own, but when you put them together it becomes a whole piece.

As for Arrow, she's the melody. I stumbled across an interesting factoid that in the war in Sarajevo, the first and quite possibly one of the only times, women made up a significant number of snipers."

http://www.women24.com/BooksAndAstrology/News/Author-interview-Steven-Galloway-20111013
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 18, 2015, 11:25:40 PM
Yes, and further each of the three sections that we can see as Arrow, Dragan, Keenan are then further explored as each personality stated, explored or expanded, and restated - the characters introduced are as if playing a Sonata there are times when instruments answer each other and other times the instrument answers itself. This is really a gifted piece of writing isn't it.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 19, 2015, 11:10:32 AM
Barbara, yes. I think he's a very good writer. He must have done good research too. The parts where Arrow was checking the best place to defend the cellist and think where the sniper would be were very detailed.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 19, 2015, 01:56:28 PM
Found this interesting, the real cellist of Sarajevo continued to play in many other places:

Smajlović took his cello to the spot where those waiting for bread had been butchered and began to plaintively play. He played in a daze but in an incredibly evocative way. In spite of the risk, people gathered to listen. When he was finished he packed up his cello and went to a coffee shop. Quickly people came up to him expressing their appreciation, “This is what we needed.” Smajlović went back the next day and the next 22 days, one for each person killed. Sniper fire continued around him and mortars still rained down in the neighborhood, but Smajlović never stopped playing.

Then he went to other sites where shells had taken the lives of Sarajevo’s citizens. He played there, and he played in graveyards. He played at funerals at no charge, even though the Serbian gunners would target such gatherings. His music was a gift to all hiding in their basements with rubble above their heads, a voice for peace for those daily dodging the bullets of the snipers. As the reports of Smajlović’s performances on the shattered streets spread, he became a symbol for peace. A reporter questioned whether he was crazy to play his cello outside in the midst of a war zone. He countered, “You ask me am I crazy for playing the cello, why do you not ask if they are not crazy for shelling Sarajevo?”

- See more at: http://www.readthespirit.com/explore/vedran-smajlovic-cellist-of-sarajevo-still-moves-the-world/#sthash.JqXIWihA.dpuf
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 20, 2015, 12:33:18 AM
That is an interesting article, Bellamarie. Thanks for sharing it.

Anyone else have any thoughts about any part of the book?
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 20, 2015, 09:28:57 PM
I am going to have a very busy weekend and expecting my daughter and son in law coming from Florida, so I am going to say goodbye to this discussion.  Marcie thank you for choosing the book.  As always I am glad I read it, even if it was a bit too depressing for me.  It is a book I would never have read on my own.

Would like to wish you all a very.....
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT3Th27_eBGmiGsYGLzTUILcXX-fA6taBPb1S4ICvOQhuhjjZHv9A)
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 20, 2015, 09:33:01 PM
Thanks, Bellamarie, for participating and sharing your thoughts and informative links. I hope you have a wonderful time with your family.
Title: Qu
Post by: Frybabe on November 21, 2015, 06:27:45 AM
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

November Book Club Online

The Cellist of Sarajevo
by Steven Galloway


(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/cellistofsarajevo/cellistsarajevosm.jpg) Our selection for November is an award-winning novel that explores the dilemmas of ordinary people caught in the crises of war and examines the healing power of art.

"In this beautiful and unforgettable novel, Steven Galloway has taken an extraordinary, imaginative leap to create a story that speaks powerfully to the dignity and generosity of the human spirit under extraordinary duress.." - ~ Cellist of Sarajevo Website.

Discussion Schedule
November 1 - 2  The Cellist and Part One

November 3 - 9  Part Two through the section on Keenan ending with "he knows he has a long way to before he is home again." (p 106 in my copy)

November 10 - 15 Rest of Part Two

November 16 - 23  Part Three

November 24 - 27  Part Four


Questions for November 1-2: (The Cellist and Part One)

What do we learn about the city of Sarajevo in these sections?
What are your initial impressions of the characters that Steven Galloway has created: the Cellist? Arrow? Kenan? Dragan?
What is the main task/activity that is the focus for each of them in this story?
What are some ways that each of them, and other citizens, have been affected by the war?

Questions for November 3-9: (First half of Part Two - to p.106)
What are some more details we learn about Arrow, Dragan and Kenan? Who do they interact with and how?
What seems to be each of their approaches or ways of dealing with the situation they are in?
What are some of the things that they say or we're told that they are thinking that made a special impression on you?
What words, metaphors, descriptions, do you think the author uses to effectively make his points?
Can you personally relate to anything in any of the characters or their situations?

Questions for November 10 - 15: (Second half of Part Two - from p.107 to end of Part Two)
In the beginning of the chapter on Dragan, we learn what he thinks motivates the cellist. Do you agree?
A lot happens to and around Dragan, Arrow and Keenan in the latter pages of Part Two. What actions stand out for you?
What themes do you notice in Part Two?

Questions for November 16 -: (Part Three)
In part Three, Dragan, Arrow and Keenan seem to undergo changes in their outlook. What do you notice about them?
What sentences in this part of the book seem especially important?


Questions for Part Four
How do the stories of the main characters seem to resolve in this last part? Were you surprised by any of their actions?
What are some of your thoughts and feelings as you reflect on this novel?

LINKS

 Background on the Adagio in G-Minor, including an audio file. (http://hubpages.com/entertainment/Who-Wrote-the-Adagio-in-G-Minor-A-Musical-Mystery)

Image of Vedran, Smailovic, Cello player in the partially destroyed National Library in Sarajevo, 1992. (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Evstafiev-bosnia-cello.jpg)

Sarajevo Survival Map 1992-96 (http://www.mappery.com/sarajevo-survival-map-1992-1996)
 

Discussion Leader:  Marcie (marciei@aol.com )





I went to my first ever F2F book discussion on Thursday for All Quiet on the Western Front. Unfortunately, only the moderator and I were there. What a shame. She had also read Cellist of Sarajevo, so we were able to explore some of the similarities of the emotional costs of being bombarded and shot at. And, I found out the All Quiet on the Western Front is being made into a movie for release next November.

The discussion moderator's first question was unanswerable. What do you do if you are strongly committed to non-violence, but the other party is just as committed to violent means to achieve their objective? It is a true conundrum for her because, as she explained, she is essentially a pacifist having been raised in a pacifist family.

I enjoyed the discussion and the happy (?) coincidence of reading both Cellist and All Quiet at the same time. It gave me a greater "appreciation" for the trauma that people of through in war as well as those who are subjected to terrorist attacks. 

Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on November 21, 2015, 05:08:52 PM
The way it was - from the BBCTV. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kuCAOlQSEA

There are ethnic groups involved here and I am not sure I have them correct in my mind.  The Serbs, the Croats and the Muslims??


Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on November 21, 2015, 05:11:01 PM
The book doesn't say, but have we decided who are the people on the hills and who are the people in the valley and why is it happening?

Maybe it's just my forgetful mind.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 21, 2015, 10:44:00 PM
Frybabe, it's too bad that there were only two of you to talk about the book but that was lucky that you could compare both books. I think that comparisons are a great way to learn more about something.

What a moving documentary, Ella. It makes me realize again that no one predicted that the siege would last so long.

I think that the author was trying to make a universal statement about the effects of war and how music and the arts could make a difference in providing hope so he didn't give a lot of details about who was fighting who.

I found some details in wikipedia.

After Bosnia and Herzegovina had declared independence from Yugoslavia, the Bosnian Serbs—whose strategic goal was to create a new Bosnian Serb state of Republika Srpska (RS) that would include parts of Bosnian territory—encircled Sarajevo (the capital of Bosnia and Herzegovina),with a siege force. The Bosnian government defense forces (ARBiH) inside the besieged city were poorly equipped and unable to break the siege.

The besieged population was comprised of not only Bosniaks and Croats, but also Serbs that had remained in the town and who were killed by fire from the besieging Bosnian Serb Army forces.

On 18 November 1990, the first multi-party parliamentary elections were held in Bosnia and Herzegovina (with a 2nd round on 25 November), which resulted in a national assembly dominated by three ethnically based parties, which had formed a loose coalition to oust the communists from power.[18] Croatia and Slovenia's subsequent declarations of independence and the warfare that ensued placed Bosnia and Herzegovina and its three constituent peoples in an awkward position. A significant split soon developed on the issue of whether to stay with the Yugoslav federation (overwhelmingly favored among Serbs) or to seek independence (overwhelmingly favored among Bosniaks and Croats).

The Serb members of parliament, consisting mainly of Serb Democratic Party members, abandoned the central parliament in Sarajevo, and formed the Assembly of the Serb People of Bosnia and Herzegovina on 24 October 1991, which marked the end of the tri-ethnic coalition that governed after the elections in 1990. This Assembly established the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina on 9 January 1992, which became the Republika Srpska in August 1992.

 Bosnia and Herzegovina declared independence on 3 March 1992. Following a period of escalating tensions the opening shots in the incipient Bosnian conflict were fired when Serb paramilitary forces attacked Bosnian Croat villages.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on November 22, 2015, 09:55:52 AM
"I think that the author was trying to make a universal statement about the effects of war and how music and the arts could make a difference in providing hope so he didn't give a lot of details about who was fighting who" - Marcie

Yes, I agree, but, being a practical person, a nonfiction reader, I have to  have details.  This book is rather "romantic" about war, but it is actually a bloody, awful, terrible, soul-searing event in the life of every soldier involved.  Do you think that is portrayed in the book?

Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 22, 2015, 12:56:21 PM
Ella I think the story is more universal than how soldiers experience war - I think it is more about how the average person 'walks' so to speak the road to accepting reality and how they no longer try to hang onto what was which may even include a life surrounded by a family no longer living with you.

I think it shows the various ways we behave when all we knew and loved is taken so that the emphasis in this story is not on the war but the affects of war on the destruction of a city and the changes the citizens experience as they attempt to hold on to their humanity with all they knew and loved, day by day, inch by inch, destroyed.

Rather than a story about the destruction of the human body as a soldier or as a civilian I see it more as the gradual destruction of the people's psyche and what pulls them back to retain their humanity. This story is not about the war, it is about the affects of war on the population, soldier or civilian. Not the stuff of history books, is it.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 22, 2015, 10:24:00 PM
I admire your questioning mind, Ella. Good questions. As Barb says, it seems to me that the emphasis in this book is on the psychological and moral effects of war. You might be right, Ella. Maybe that's not enough --without more of the physical details-- to make the war believable to the reader. Is that what you mean by characterizing the book's viewpoint as "romantic"? Does anyone else have thoughts about this.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 23, 2015, 10:22:20 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with you Barb.  It was not about the war, it was about how war affects people, their minds, their everyday lives, their human stories, and how music and art can soothe, comfort and bring hope in a hopeless situation.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 24, 2015, 12:36:39 PM
Barb, Marcie, and Bellamarie, the three of you have summed up what I feel the book is about much better than I could.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 24, 2015, 09:30:32 PM
Thanks, Bellamarie and Pat.

We'll leave the discussion open for a few days for any thoughts about any aspects of the book. I appreciate everyone's participation. I always learn more about the book when I read it with some of you on SeniorLearn and I think of things I wouldn't on my own. I appreciate that and each of you!
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on November 25, 2015, 10:03:17 AM
Music and art?  Did you watch the video  I posted on the 21st?  Where was the music - the art - the hope?  That was real and the truth, not for books.

I know a book probably wouldn't sell if it was about reality, would it?
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 25, 2015, 11:57:03 AM

I know a book probably wouldn't sell if it was about reality, would it?

Well, All Quiet on the Western Front is still selling after 87years.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 25, 2015, 12:21:18 PM
But that's a good question you raise, Ella.  What role does or should reality play in fiction?  This book isn't  totally realistic; Arrow especially is more aware of exactly what her targets are thinking than she could be.  But exaggeration can point out truth.  The cellist really DID play, and people really DID stop and listen to him, and even though a TV cameraman didn't ask them about it that doesn't mean the music didn't give some people a source of strength and hope.

Of course science fiction, when it wants to be serious, is adept at altering reality to show truths about humanity.

Anyonr, how much reality do you want in your fiction?
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 25, 2015, 01:05:42 PM
I've been known to fact check authors for accuracy regarding historical events or cultural matters. On the whole, I don't like historical novels that put fictional words into the mouths of real people.

Regarding Scifi, I agree PatH. On another note one of the things I like about The Martian is that Andy Weir went out of his way to fact check his science and technology while writing the book. There is very little in the book that already is known, has been done, or can be done with what we know now.

Vedran Smailović has been an inspiration to more than Steven Galloway. Here is one:
http://myhero.com/hero.asp?hero=vedrans
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 25, 2015, 11:58:06 PM
Ella, likely there are soldiers and civilians who have been involved in a war who would agree with you (if I'm understanding your reference to the "reality" of war) ; that even if the novel is hopeful it should depict more of the physicality of war in order to be true to the war experience.

The characters did seem somewhat removed from their experience but I'm assuming that is part of the psychological damage caused by the years of being under siege and in danger. It all seemed "unreal" to them; and they no longer were the same persons they were at the start.

Pat and Frybabe, I appreciate your thoughts about the science fiction genre. I remember the original Star Trek series and so many of the "statements" that were made in episodes that were a commentary on things going on in our then current society but set in other galaxies and future alien civilizations.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 28, 2015, 01:49:53 AM
Here is a coming attraction to ;) peek your excitement for December's first discussion starting next Tuesday December 1, The Adventures of Pinocchio

https://vimeo.com/43229716
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 28, 2015, 10:19:11 AM
Well my daughter and son in law left this morning to return to their home in Florida after spending five glorious days with us for Thanksgiving.  I am a bit sad to see them leave, but plan to visit them in the Spring.  Now back to the book in wrapping it up.

PatH., 
Quote
Anyone, how much reality do you want in your fiction?

I do like accuracy in locations, events, time frames, and things that refer to real life existence in my fictional books.  The characters unless they are depicting a real life one, I don't expect to fit into my narrative, but enjoy seeing them from the author's creative mind.  I felt Gallaway did a good job in giving us just enough accurate facts to imagine what it was like to be under siege by the soldiers in the hills.  For me I did not feel the author was covering the war per say, but the human devastation war brings to a community, their homes, culture, arts, buildings, personal minds and families.

Again, I want to thank Marcie and all of you who participated in the discussion.  It was a difficult book for me to enjoy because I found it so depressing, but with the help of all of you, I was able to see it through.

So, on to Pinocchio!   
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on November 28, 2015, 12:56:50 PM
Thanks, Marcie, for bringing this book to us for discussion.  I enjoyed the book for a number of reasons and gave it to my daughter who actually was in a war in the Persian Gulf.  She was a nurse in the Army Reserve Nurse Corp and they were called up.  I know she and the other nurses were very frightened of the scuds going overhead; they set up tents in the desert for hospital units but few US soldiers were injured.  However, they treated POW's until the war was over.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 29, 2015, 05:28:07 PM
Thanks for your thoughts, Bellamarie and Ella. Ella, you must be very proud of your daughter. It was actually your mention of the book that led me to choose it for this month's discussion. I wouldn't have read it otherwise. I appreciate the leads to books that I find on SeniorLearn.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 29, 2015, 06:04:15 PM
Marcie I am so glad you chose this book to bring to us - the timing was perfect but more - this is a book I cannot get out of my mind and find myself re-reading bits and pieces over and over - So many meaningful lines in this story... thanks...
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 29, 2015, 10:33:25 PM
Thanks, Barbara. I appreciate all that you brought to the discussion.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on December 01, 2015, 09:04:56 AM
Ella, Please thank your daughter for me for her brave service to our country.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 02, 2015, 11:39:02 AM
I've been traveling, and it's been hard to post,so I'm glad the discussion is still open.

Marcie found the fact that the author thinks of the book as a trio sonata.  To me, it's a slightly different musical form--a rondo.  In a rondo, the main theme is played, then a different section, then back to the main theme, a second different stretch, back to the main theme, alternating back and forth several more times, finally ending with the main theme.

Arrow is the main theme here. She shows the most intense, focussed, and pared-down version of the struggle all the characters are having, and we start and end with her.  She does manage to pull back from dehumanization and keep her own identity.  It will cost her her life, but she thinkt it's a fair trade.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 02, 2015, 12:16:48 PM
Beautiful Pat - yes, I can see it... thanks.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 02, 2015, 10:33:23 PM
Pat, I appreciate your knowledge of music. A rondo makes sense to me in the context of the book, as you've explained it. I appreciate too the way you've characterized Arrow. You're right. She keeps her identity; she won't become the killer the military wants her to be. She speaks her real name as she is shot.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 03, 2015, 10:12:29 AM
This has been an amazing discussion.  Marcie, you did a wonderful job of finding information to help un understand the book, and directing our attention to things thta needed talking about.

And everyone contributed so much.  Different approaces, different sides of the story.  It was truly a conversation in the best sense of the word.

Thank you, everyone.
Title: Re: The Cellist of Sarajevo - November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 03, 2015, 11:06:25 AM
Yes, an enlightening conversation. Thanks, Pat and everyone! We'll likely archive this discussion later today.