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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/pinocchio/cvr.jpg)
| Come on - Join us
We are discussing an old Italian tale that Walt Disney changed into a children's colorful animated musical.
Our discussion is the original tale.
We Finish this discussion on Friday, Dec. 18.
Starting on Saturday, Dec. 19, a Holiday Discussion will finish out the month - More about that later - Let's talk about how we will discuss,
The Adventures of Pinocchio by Carlo Collodi.
A Gutenberg link to: The Adventures of Pinocchio (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/500/500-h/500-h.htm)
We have 18 days, divide by 3
Equals 6 days for each 3rd of the book
1/3rd of 36 Chapters is 12 Chapters every 6 days.
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Tuesday, Dec. 1 through Sunday, Dec. 6 --- The First 12 Chapters
Monday, Dec. 7 through Saturday, Dec. 12 --- Chapters 13 to 24
Sunday, Dec. 13 through Friday, Dec. 18 --- Chapters 25 to 36 Helpful Links: - Background: The Never Ending Adventures of Pinocchio (https://quintessentialruminations.wordpress.com/2013/03/01/the-never-ending-adventures-of-pinocchio/)
- Carlo Lorenzini, pseudonym Carlo Collodi (http://static.torontopubliclibrary.ca/ve/pinocchio/collodi.html)
Focus Questions- 1. A fairy tales is constructed with characters overcoming obstacles which push the tale forward, so that the story is of goodness and obedience rewarded. What is the goodness in Pinocchio so that he continually rewarded?
- 2. What fields of Wonder have you invested that turned out not to deliver its promise?
- 3. During the late 19th century exemplary narrative qualities were "lightness" and "rapidity." This writing style is evident during Pinocchio's run for his life when he still takes time to laugh at his assassins as they under-estimate the crossing and get wet in the pool of water - Can you see other examples of Collodi treating a serious matter rapidly and with light humor?
- 4. Pinocchio's story is the masculine world of dog-eat-dog street smarts, macho bravado and dangerous trials and tribulations where as the Blue Fairy, first sister than mother figure during his re-birth, has an upper class persona. She does not share Geppetto's poverty. Does this explain why she is alone helping Pinocchio? Does the Blue Fairy teach Pinocchio anything that changes his behavior?
- 5. Dante includes in his Inferno, the circle of the suicides who must suffer eternal pains as gnarled, speaking bushes and trees. Is hanging from an Oak tree inferring Pinocchio had a hand in his own hanging? How do you explain Pinocchio no longer fleeing as he beseeches help from the dead girl with the Azure hair? Was acting on his belief that the dead girl would help, similar to his believing his coins would grow in the Field of Wonder?
- 6. Was the Azure hair a sign the dead girl was the Blue Fairy in another form? Or like the enchantress Calypso holds Odysseus captive hoping he would forget his wife is the dead girl wanting to hold Pinocchio captive from the love of his father?
- 7. Does this aspect of the story, that is the captivating of our belief in vague possibilities lead us, the reader, to see our illusion of control as separating us from the mystery of re-birth and death?
- 8. Why do you think the incident with the snake that exploids from laughter is included in the story?
- 9. How are Harlequin and Pulcinella shadow characters for Pinocchio? Are characteristics of the other Commedia Dell'Arte characters included in the story?
- 10. In what story written by Kafka, b.1893 d. 1924, reminds you of the "Land of the Busy Bees"?
- 11. Pinocchio's birth, his little voice speaking from an old piece of wood, carved, allowing his voice to emerge just as the formless soul is housed in the shape of a human body; where as, the re-birth of Pinocchio takes place in sumptuous surroundings with food, water and medicine available, and yet, he continues to pursue his imprudent adventure as the Field of Wonder is his magnet, his north star. What are we to make of this focused journey?
Discussion Leaders: BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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Welcome – Really, glad you stopped in – this is the last month of the year, a year that has flown by with many good discussions.
Our choice this month is a tale written for children in nineteenth century Italy – can we put ourselves in the frame of mind for this time in history – do we know what was happening in Italy in 1881, when the first of the series written by Collodi was published in a local newspaper?
Children’s stories are filled with imagery – Children are relating to the world around them, getting in touch with how their feelings are best expressed while adults attempt to teach children what is good, and what is bad behavior. Storytelling was a way that children learned acceptable and preferred behavior. I think we will all agree, Pinocchio is for sure an icon for those lessons.
To enjoy this tale written before the movie picture much less TV we need to be attuned to the way an author captured mind pictures. Let’s be on the lookout for words and sentences that paint a picture of the story and the characters for us.
We need to stretch our minds to include opportunities and responsibilities along with the dreams of children in 1881. We can also have our eyes opened to the consequences of behavior for children during this time in history as compared to today and as compared to the 1940s when Walt Disney redeveloped the story.
Finally, this is an opportunity to find out more about Marionettes and the stock characters in the world of theater, like the Harlequin.
Yes, another adventure into learning – I hope you are as excited as I am to read this tale as a door opening to so many aspects of nineteenth century Italian life and storytelling. Surprise to me, I can even see the temptations in this story having the earmarks of our own grown up temptations.
And like all our literary reading – we all have our own background and life experiences that we bring to a read – it will be fun to see how we each see this story. I am suspecting we may each experience different reactions and that will be the most fun to hear about.
We are off to the world of Marionette theater in Italy, 1881…
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I've gotten the book from our local library. It's an oversized book with the author's listed as Carlo Collodi and Roberto Innocenti. Innocenti has provided the fantastic illustrations. It's a beautiful book. You can see many of the images at https://www.google.com/search?q=pinocchio,+innocenti&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4wtz7g7vJAhVCLogKHaJABEUQ_AUIBygB&biw=970&bih=593. They are even sharper and better in the book.
I'm enjoying reading the book so far with its unexpected humor.
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Oh Marcie from the page of illustrations you shared it must be a wonderful book - There is something so uplifting about a good children's classical story and maybe that is it - the illustrations - we obviously never get tired of pictures regardless our age or we would not spend time combing the web.
I love this one which shows us typical play for children at this time in history.
(http://images.telerama.fr/medias/2009/11/media_49827/les-enfants-de-pinocchio,M30113.jpg)
And this one - wow - giving them all a look of real people but here we are with Harlequin and Pulcinella
(https://img1.etsystatic.com/000/0/5417064/il_570xN.255051359.jpg)
He is a gifted illustrator isn't he - need to find out more about him - I wonder when he lived and if he is also Italian.
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Well here is a photo of our artist
(http://www.fabulantes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Innocenti2.jpg)
Found his Bio - lives and works in Italy and his agent is in London - born in 1940, younger than some of us.
http://biography.jrank.org/pages/1533/Innocenti-Roberto-1940.html
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My kindle edition has no illustrations (sigh), so I'll have to imagine.
I loved, loved, loved the movie as a child. Jiminy cricket was my favorite character ever, and I had to learn, now I've become a whale watcher, that not all whales look like the Sperm Whale in the movie. I suspect this is getting in the way of enjoying the book -- I'll have to erase those memories and read from scratch.
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Haha Joan the original is a very different story than what we saw in the movies - you will be charmed all over - and lots of illustrations on the link from Marcie - looks like he has the long nose from the beginning but the deal about him burning his feet - you can just see it and imagine your telling that part to a youngster with all the feigned horror in your eyes and yet, it is perfectly logical that of course it had to be a part of the story.
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Oh, Barb, I wish I could get to the library to get the book, but am involved into too many things this week, but I must tell you Pinocchio was always a favorite story of my daughter and myself. Well, there are many favorites when I think about it, but this one is special.
I made puppets when my daughter and her playmate were about 6 or so. I made them out of pipe cleaners and had strings attached - even made a stage out of a box, etc. It was fun to be a mother of small children.
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Pinocchio is all over the Internet, here are just a few - hurriedly. The original black/white ones are wonderful. Are they in the book?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiminy_Cricket
http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Jiminy_Cricket
Would the book have been so popular if Disney had not made the movie?
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Here are the black/white illustrations, are they the original?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Pinocchio
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I just gave $10 to Wikipedia, they are asking for $3 from each person. I use it for so many purposes - a small sum for a big cause.
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I have to say I have never really ever read the book (except for Disney's version), nor watched the movie in it's entirety, but have always kept the moral close at hand as a teaching tool for my three children growing up. I would tease them when I suspected they were telling a lie and ask, "Did I see your nose grow?"
I had never heard of Harlequin and Pulcinella. Was trying to Google them for info yesterday, but ran out of time. This time of year seems to go in fast pace for me.
2. We read that Pinocchio is definitely called a Marionette in the story. What is the difference between a Marionette and a Puppet?
A puppet is a movable figure which represents a person or animal. It is controlled or manipulated by a puppeteer. Marionette is a puppet which is animated by using wires or strings. Marionettes are often considered to be complex than other types of puppets.
http://www.differencebetween.info/difference-between-puppet-and-marionette
I am reading the ibook version with no pictures at all and am feeling a bit disappointed like JoanK., especially after seeing Marcie's beautifully colored illustrations. I may have to check with my library and see if I can get that book. I am ALL about visual when reading.
I teach third grade CCD (religion) classes and when teaching about the Holy Spirit being our conscious, I tell my students to imagine the Holy Spirit sitting on their right shoulder whispering to make good choices, and to ignore the voice of the devil sitting on their left shoulder whispering to choose to do bad. Here is a picture of Jiminy Cricket sitting on Pinocchio's nose as his conscious with Pinocchio looking very much ashamed, as I can imagine Jiminy Cricket chastising him.
(https://d.gr-assets.com/books/1328307171l/6304446.jpg)
Sorry so large I pasted the url.
Thank you Marcie for the link to the wonderful images.
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How wonderful, Ella, to make a puppet theater for your daughter. That must have been fun for all.
Those black and white illustrations in your wikipedia link seem to be from the original edition by illustrator Enrico Mazzanti.
Barb, you ask why include Master Cherry in the story. I'm thinking it probably was to show the "magical" quality in the wood. That Pinocchio was originally going to be a table leg but the wood crying out spooked the carpenter and saved the piece to become the wooden puppet. For me, it also sets the stage for Pinocchio being someone that you are sympathetic to, and find humor in, but who also can be seen as causing problems. The first owner of the wood gave him up to Geppetto.
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OH so many thought this morning - OK ELLA the original story is linked in the heading - there are many links on the internet and the one included in the heading is from Gutenberg - here it is again
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/500/500-h/500-h.htm
And here is a wonderful opportunity to have the original story read to you - Gutenberg has The Adventures of Pinocchio chapter by chapter being read aloud...
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19516/19516-index.html
Over the years there have been so many illustrators - the black and white drawings are from another artist - the book was first published as a book in 1883 but was included in the newspaper starting in 1881. Just on Amazon alone there are at least a dozen publications going back as far as 1900. My copy does not have any illustrations but it has some annotations that I was hoping for more telling us about life at the time but what they have included is proving to be a wonder.
Oh Ella you have done what has been on my list of 'todo's' for years and years - to make a group of Marionettes, a stage and become adapt at making them look alive and here you did it for your daughter. Bravo...
It was fun being a mom back in the day wasn't it... nothing has ever compared.
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Haha looks like Bellamarie you found the big difference between the Disney adaptation and the original - no Jiminy Cricket all dressed in waistcoat and top hat, except as the ghost of the 'talking cricket' that Pinocchio took care of, right off when he was alone in the shop.
Some of what was in the annotated remarks is that stories for children were a new phenomenon in the nineteenth century. Early in the century the Grimm brothers published their collection of folk stories that were not considered just for Children and then just past mid century there are the books of Lewis Carroll. His most famous being Alice in Wonderland. Suggested is that these stories were as interesting to and read by adults rather than exclusively for children.
But the big bit - in the nineteenth century stories were still depending upon the Classics and the Bible for their parables, analogies, metaphors and symbols especially among Italians whose story telling is mostly oral and steeped in Biblical events and figures. In the Italian culture a 'good story' always contained humor.
I read that storytelling is a folk art in the Tuscan countryside, and has been for centuries. Collodi, pseudonym of Carlo Lorenzini, was born in Florance, the heart of Tuscany. Another article says, the structure of Pinocchio with his variety of incidents, and tongue-in-cheek wisdom is written within the tradition of the Odyssey, the Aeneid, and the Divine Comedy. We read the Odyssey here on SeniorLearn and yes, the story moved along incident after incident but without the humor that would make it a 'good story'.
But get this - the story has been compared to the myth of Pygmalion and Galatea. This myth has been used over and over in literature and in the theater - Bernard Shaw well known Pygmalion became My Fair Lady. Where as here in Pinocchio we have Mastro Geppetto falling in love with his wooden sculptured boy which is closer to the myth of Pygmalion sculpting Galatea.
http://www.greekmyths-greekmythology.com/myth-of-pygmalion-and-galatea/
Then get this - I was amazed - mouth gapping amazed - in the 1970s, filmmaker and playwright Giuseppe Bertolucci puts together a production of Pinocchio.
Benigni whose first success was in a film written by Giuseppe Bertolucci, wanted to bring to the screen the Biblical elements of the tale ("a little child shall lead them") as exemplified in Pinocchio, and given his great love for and knowledge of Dante, using a similar humor to Pinocchio, he writes, acts and produces, Life is Beautiful!!! Can you believe - remember it was that WWII story of an Italian Jewish family in the concentration camp where he successfully keeps hidden his young child as if playing a game waiting for the tanks and when Benigni won the Oscar he jumps on the back of his seat.
Can you believe all this... in Italy The Adventures of Pinocchio by Collodi is considered a masterpiece.
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Marcie I like your thoughts on the reason for Mastro Cherry - I could not help wonder if Clement Clarke Moore took his nose like a cherry in The Night Before Christmas from this story.
Your reminding us that the wood was magical had me quick reference Wood in the traditional book for literary symbols - which says that wood is of the paradisaical state, it gives shelter from birth in the cradle to death and the coffin - it is the gallows, cross and the ship of the dead and Christ as the carpenter uses tools symbolically of the divine power bringing order out of chaos.
I thought of the fight between Mastro Cherry and Mastro Geppetto gave Collodi the opportunity to show that as rough and tumble the fight, shaking hands and going on with life was the important message that he could not have included without the two gentleman. That would go along with the reference to wood and Christ bringing order out of chaos.
The more I think of your reminding us that the wood was magical the more I am thinking it was a fact in seeing this story as more than a humorous children's story - I wish I had read Dante when we read it here but at the time I was so tied up I could not put the attention on it that it required. I am thinking that if Benigni used his knowledge and love of Dante along with Pinocchio to help him craft his movie, Life is Beautiful there is far more to this story than I ever imagined. I just thought it would be like the English who bring children's stories to the theater during Christmas and we would read the real story rather than the Disney adaptation.
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Barb, you are really opening my mind up to so much more than I ever imagined could be possible with this story. Biblical is not what I would have assessed but the wood, the forgiveness between the two friends after fighting, and let's NOT forget Jiminy Cricket is suppose to be Pinocchio's conscious which could represent the Holy Spirit which is considered our protector, helper, advocate, comforter, Spirit of truth, revealer, teacher, witness, intercessor, and counselor to name a few.
In addition to these names, many references are made to the Holy Spirit, with some scholars counting as many as 126 different labels.
One special name used by Jesus in reference to the Holy Spirit is "Helper." Four times in John's Gospel, Jesus calls the Spirit our "Helper" (John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7). In Isaiah 11:2, the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Counsel. In this role, the Holy Spirit gives His wisdom to us when we seek God's will for our lives.
http://www.compellingtruth.org/names-Holy-Spirit.html
I went to my library and got the illustrated version of the book and oh how I love seeing the pictures and feel it come to life as I read. My copy is only 56 pages and that includes full pages taken up for illustrations, and it does not open up the same as the online version. I think I will read both to see how they vary.
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I'll never look at a cricket the same again Bellamarie - yes, it sure fits doesn't it - as a whisperer of wisdom I almost like the image that Disney created but then the ghost of a talking cricket does seem more ethereal.
I am thinking that regardless if you consciously see these symbols at play while reading there is an underpinning that gives off good vibes, so that no wonder this, as many other classical stories keep themselves fresh to a new reader bringing their hope for a 'good story' to be read or told.
Well his feet on fire sure was not a Baptism of fire was it - because he continues as before, a scamp with newly carved feet -
Interesting - I wonder if the quarrel between the two maestro's was as much symbolic of the various parts of this new Italy - it appears it was just over 20 years earlier that the unification of Italy was a huge ambivalent ordeal with each area wanting to protect its own traditions, customs and quirks in their language. Reading from one site that I was able use the translator says, that Collodi was caught between the unification programs to make Italians Italian and the "threat to individuality and personal freedom" that was the earmark of life in Tuscany.
Sounds like Pinocchio wanting to be the good son learning his ABCs and a trade to enhance his life with Geppetto balanced by his innate curiosity that becomes a self learning project towards gaining the wisdom of how to live among all kinds of personalities.
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Well I have to tell you that every page I turn in this story I am seeing parables jumping out at me, and Biblical teachings. I was discussing this with my hubby last night showing him the stark comparisons and he said he has watched the movie many times and never saw them, and now that I pointed them out he can clearly see them.
Pinocchio's struggle with choosing to go to school and be good versus just wanting to as he put it:
"Of all the trades in the world, there is only one that really suits me: that of eating, drinking, sleeping, playing and wandering around from morning til night."
reminds me of the seven deadly sins, pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth.
As the cricket points out to Pinocchio, "Woe to boys who refuse to obey their parents and run away from home!" Here we see the Commandment to Honor thy father and mother.
Was it just me or did anyone else think of the story The Gingerbread Man, when Pinocchio ran away? When he comes back home again, the father forgives him. This reminded me of the Prodigal Son parable. Forgiveness is truly becoming the theme of this story.
One more comparison I am seeing is: The Blessed Trinity, The Father (Geppetto), The Son (Pinocchio) and The Holy Spirit (Jiminy Cricket).
Barb interesting facts about Italy at the time of this story being written. This story is proving to be so much more than a child's fairy tale. I am going to have to watch the movie we have on VHS.
Ciao for now~
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Here are a few pictures from my library book for those who do not have illustrations.
Geppetto carving Pinocchio
(http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah266/Marie_Patterfritz_Reinhart/2015-12-03%202015-12-3%20Pinocchio%20002_zpsdtebjisv.jpg)
Pinocchio running away
(http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah266/Marie_Patterfritz_Reinhart/2015-12-03%202015-12-3%20Pinocchio%20003_zps70fkaig6.jpg)
Pinocchio meets the talking cricket. This cricket sure looks much scarier than Disney's Jiminy Cricket.
(http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah266/Marie_Patterfritz_Reinhart/2015-12-03%202015-12-3%20Pinocchio%20004_zps6bedokan.jpg)
Pinocchio's feet burnt off.
(http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah266/Marie_Patterfritz_Reinhart/2015-12-03%202015-12-3%20Pinocchio%20009_zpsg3xzicjl.jpg)
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BELLAMARIE: I love the illustrations: thank you.
The symbolism of the trinity is interesting. Pinocchio is hardly keeping up his end of the image, though. Let's see how he develops.
This is also a coming of age story. Coming of age in earlier stories, means being exposed to the wide world outside of the family and dealing with its dangers. Whereas now, it's seen more in terms of psychological maturity.
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I think the struggles Pinocchio is dealing with can help us see even Jesus had a difficult time, even though Pinocchio's seem to be of his own making. Don't get me wrong, Jesus was a man on earth without sin, little Pinocchio seems to be struggling in not sinning. Even on pg. 21 the actual word "God" is mentioned.
"Poor Father! But, after today, God willing, he will suffer no longer."
I get the feeling Collodi was a spiritual man or at least was very familiar with scripture and parables, and may have used that knowledge and faith in helping him create this story of morals. Yes, Pinocchio, like every little boy growing up is finding his choices have consequences.
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I am finding the humor in the book is making me laugh out loud at times. Adults would find the instances funny but I'm wondering at what age children would get it.
Near the beginning when Pinocchio is so desperately hungry, Geppeto offers him the three pears he was saving for breakfast. Instread of gratefully gulping them down right away, Pinocchio's response is "If you want me to eat them, be kind enough to peel them for me." He continues in that vein for a while back and forth with Geppeto, not wanting the peelings; not wanting the core. Then, when Gepetto says he has nothing else, Pinocchio finally eats the peels and core!
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I am seeing so many parallels to other fairy tales in this story, so my question is....which came first? It's like watching movies, you see a line where you go..."Oh that happened in such a such a movie too!" Some plots or lines are unforgettable.
Marcie, I agree, I find myself laughing out loud as well. As soon as Pinocchio gets out of one jam, and promises to do good, he turns right back around and gets himself into yet another situation. :)
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Marcie had to laugh as well - reminded me of my sister who could not eat the crust of bread - oh dear - those crusts showed up on the top of every food for every meal I swear I think it was a week before she finally succumbed - oh it was not funny then but...
I had the same experience with alphabet soup - back in the 30s anything store bought was like gold and here I did not 'like' this bowl of gold - Frankly, mom's soup was so much better and not sharp from a tomato base but like my sister, except I gave in after a day of that bowl of soup on top of my supper and pushed into my morning oatmeal - oh oh oh - but I knew it would be there at lunch so I just sorta held my nose and of course it was not re-heated - oh dear...
I must say as a kid I did not like the skins of an apple and so chose another fruit if it was available and convinced my mother that applesauce tasted so much better - learn how to be wily here - but to this day I have never eaten the core of any apple or pear - do you eat the core of either an apple or pear?
Bellamarie I can see how fascinated you are with the relationship of this story to your experiences with the Christian faith - it is remarkable isn't it - the Trinity thought was one I had not seen till you mentioned it - and yes, your book has a different illustrator than books illustrated by Roberto Innocenti. Can you share with us who the illustrator is for the graphics you have shared - I bet his name is on the publisher's page.
I guess I am not seeing our Pinocchio as a Jesus figure - more as 'everyman' who has flaws and temptations and must learn how to negotiate our wants from our needs and our emotional reactions to our responsibilities as a member of society, considering a family as a social unit.
On the other side of the coin the Pygmalion symbolism caught me as I realize how often in my life I learned to like something and even developed a love or a passion by working on it and wanting it to become the best I could make it - that focused devotion to seeing my skill become a reality I can see now as the journey to attachment or at least developing a comfort level that allows us to relax in our gentle sentiments.
Thinking of it, that is how friendship is developed isn't it and for sure for me as a young married learning to keep house was changing my attitude from doing as if punishment the dreaded tasks I remember from my life at home to actually taking pride and wanting to do those very same tasks. It was not easy but, I liked the outcome and now I can see the more I went for the outcome like the sculptor Pygmalion the more my skills were practiced and polished and the more I fell in love with not only the outcome but the tasks themselves. Interesting...
I am thinking how as we age so much of our life not only changes but is no more - it is as if we were fired from a job - and like all those who are jobless you feel less and people treat you as less - I am thinking now that may be the answer - to figure out an outcome from what we have around us like a piece of old wood and simply start to make it into what we see as a pleasing outcome - in the process you not only fall in love with what you have accomplished but also, you take pride in your practiced skill. Hmm like runners who want to achieve a certain distance or time run in a certain distance so that the muscles involved become strong and more nimble. hmm looks like Geppetto has something to teach us in this story.
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Joan yes, a coming of age story - there are many layers to this story and that for sure is one of them - I never thought of it as such but yes, like it or not coming of age means to realize the good within us can be the very tempting hook for others to grab and actually for our own desire for 'new' as if whatever we desire has first dibs over responsible behavior taught - is that it do you think - the basics of life like food and shelter are not a birthright but earned with certain behavior.
I am thinking of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs with food and shelter on the first level of the pyramid - we cannot get to the next level according to Maslow until the preceding level has been satisfied. It looks like Pinocchio spends much of the story satisfying his need for safety... But then he is the one who makes the choices to be in these unsafe situations - hmm -
I wonder is that teaching us that safety is best achieved by staying close to home and being responsible - life does not work that way does it - maybe we have to have these experiences, as he does with the cat and the fox in order to develop our own abilities rather than just following the prescription set by family, church and school. In other words we need to be tempted and even lose our way in order to learn our limits and to own outcomes as well as, exercise our skill at negotiating temptations and risk. It is said that failure is only a lesson. Hmm Lot to think about here...
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs
(http://cdn-1.simplypsychology.org/maslow-needs.jpg)
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Well if you are like me you are rearing to get to the next section of the story - the focus questions have been adjust and those we have explored were removed - One more day to find bits in the story that we had not noticed during earlier reads and to see other examples of this story as well as how the story can actually illuminate our own quirks, habits and temptations.
Here is the tweaked list of Focus Questions...
Focus Questions- 1. Why do you think Walt Disney anthropomorphized the Cricket, even giving the Cricket a name?
- 2. Do you think Pinocchio doused with cold water sends the message not to beg or, do you think they leap and see it as punishment for what happened to Geppetto?
- 3. Chapter 8 tells us what are the important goals for a child in Italy at this time. How usual was it for a carpenter’s son to attend school in 1881? Why do you think it is typical in traditional cultures to learn a trade?
- 4. What is going on in Italy, Europe and even in the US in 1881?
- 5. The author switches often between humor and pathos. Do you think that is close to life or, is it simply a theatrical devise? Does including this switching back and forth in the story teach children about life or does it simply move the story along?
- 6. What is your piper – have you been tempted and can you be pulled away from a task?
- 7. What can we find out about Harlequin and Pulcinella as traditional characters?
- 8. The Director is described almost as a monster and then he becomes a sweetheart – what message do you think those two sides of this character are sending to children?
- 9. Has an unscrupulous character that seemed legit ever taken you in?
- 10. Few children today are left home alone. Do you see any similarities to Pinocchio's adventures and the adventures of Macaulay Culkin as Kevin McCallister in the Christmas movie Home Alone?
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Maybe I have given a false narrative in comparing the son (Pinocchio) to The Son (Jesus) since we all know Jesus was without sin and Pinocchio seems to sin every time he turns around. The story is filled with parables, the theme is certainly about being good, and going to school so you can grow up to be a responsible person. In what I see Gepetto is the father, Pinocchio the son and Jiminy cricket is the advisor (as is the Holy Spirit), and each play an important part to the story. When we turn away from our Father be it God, or our human father we find ourselves lost, things become such a struggle in life, and when someone is kind enough to try to help guide us as the cricket tries doing with Pinocchio, we do tend to think we know better and refuse to accept the advice from others.
Barb, I agree, I do believe we must have adventures, make our own mistakes, and learn our lessons from them in order to grow up, mature and become a productive adult. Oh woe to the teenager you try to advise in the midst of their coming of age stages. Pinocchio is mischievous, but he has a good heart. He has found that all he has to do is turn on the waterworks to gain sympathy to manipulate others to feel sorry for him and give into his antics. The theme of forgiveness runs through the story as well. Pinocchio needs and wants forgiveness, but as soon as he sees he is forgiven it is like a green light to proceed in doing the next wrong, tempted thing. Speaking of tempting, temptation sure is a huge problem for little Pinocchio. He continues to be tempted by friends, greed, will, and want. I keep thinking the part in the Our Father prayer, "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." Pinocchio would do well in remembering this.
Barb, I had to giggle at your sister not wanting to eat the crust of the bread. Growing up we were extremely poor. We ate everything on our plate and wished for more. I would never have even considered complaining or expressing I did not like something, since what food we got at our meals was all we would have til the next meal. No snacking in between like kids of today. My mother would always say, "There are kids with less who would gladly eat what we refused." I thought back then, really kids with less? Today, I pick the crust off of all my sandwiches and give it to the birds and squirrels who gather around our bird feeder in the backyard. I couldn't dare throw it away to no good use without feeling that twinge of guilt, knowing for certain there are indeed other children with less in the world. Funny how once we become an adult how we understand what we didn't as a child.
The illustrator of my book is Greg Hildebrandt 2003. Courage Books an imprint of Running Press Philadelphia * London the copyright is 2003. You can see more of his art at http://www.spiderwebart.com
This book is a very short version since it is only but 56 pages long including illustrations. I have been reading the ibook from the link provided to us above in our heading as well.
This time of year is so very busy, I must hurry off to Mass, a granddaughter's volleyball game and a birthday celebration with the family. Phew....I'm tired and my day has just begun!
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Ha I just thought Bellamarie - we easily jumped to conclude a character in this story as a shadow figure to a biblical figure and therefore, in our desire to continue our amazement with the similes, analogies, metaphors and symbols we see in this story we may become over zealous -
I think since Geppetto works with wood it is easy to see the comparison between him and Joseph and then put it together that the son would be Jesus. But then Maestro Cherry was a carpenter and in the story he has no son - I think the carpenter simile is the draw
What I see as funny is - Pinocchio's escapades as he attempts to decode what will satisfy his hunger for food and adventure and really the growth of the money is to some degree because of good intentions and then compare his easy solution jump to our jumping as we make comparisons to what we know and value.
I'm thinking a morality story depends upon hindsight is a familiar tool we all use to punish ourselves when anything does not turn out as we hoped. It is like the gate that opens to, 'I told you so' - 'You should have knowns better' - 'If you stayed on the straight and narrow this would not have happened' - 'What made you think you could do this alone' - woe unto us if we attempt to satisfy our needs and end up in a mess. We become as dejected as Pinocchio falling asleep weary and hungry only we add some verbal punishment to our misery.
Looks more and more like Pinocchio is showing us a boy coming of age as Joan suggested - when you think of it the Jesus story hmm if Jesus is as man, he had to have had some coming of age experiences and yet, all we hear about is his independent foray staying in the Temple and teaching while each of his parents assumed Jesus was with the other - hmm either too perfect to fit our idea of a son of God or selective memory was used to write the story of his life. Too bad, that could have been a real bit of guidance on many levels.
With nothing but repeats on PBS during this fund raising time I ought to watch Home Alone again in retrospect to realizing it is the modern story of Pinocchio with a boy of today satisfying his hunger and how he negotiates a cat and a fox and his desire for a fun Christmas with his parents off, not in jail but not easily able to return home.
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Well Barb, I have to admit you're mentioning Gepetto being a carpenter thus seeing him as Joseph the father took me a bit off guard, but I can see where you would assume I meant Joseph, which believe it or not, I was actually referring to God the Father, in the blessed trinity I was seeing. Now, before we leap too far, I have to say it is of my background and relationship with my faith that I am seeing this, not meaning it literally in the sense these three characters are exactly those of the trinity. Although we do not have the knowledge of Jesus's life as a child other than his birth, his going off to preach in the temple as a young boy, and then we learn of him around the age of thirty, we do know he had many struggles to bear on his journey to the cross and crucifixion. These were not of his own making, but what God had planned for him on earth. Now, our dear little Pinocchio on the contrary is making a mess of his life due to not keeping with the Commandments. He is determined to be led astray by temptation, disobedience, greed, and wanting to be independent. All these are human characteristics of any little boy or girl for that matter, and yes, as adults as well. Coming of age is certainly a theme of this story, but it is not by chance the author has chosen to sprinkle in all the "similes, analogies, metaphors and symbols" and might I add, proverbs, parables and teachings of the Bible. I don't think it is "overzealous" at all, for me I see the author showing to his readers that he is not only a Christian man, but he is using these as the teaching tools of life. IMO ;)
Not to change the topic, which is fine with me if we do, I would like to ask if others are seeing the different things that are from other fairy tales such as the Gingerbread Man, Cinderella, Alice in Wonderland and a few others? I'm going to have to take the time to search and see which books came first. So many to mention once we conclude the story. I have to admit to reading ahead since my 56 page book had no chapters and was such a short read. I finished the ibook last night because I was curious to see how a book with 338 pages was condensed to a book of just 56 pages. Now I want to find time to watch the Disney movie tomorrow.
I watched Home Alone with my four year old granddaughter last weekend when she spent the night. Oh we laughed so much our bellies hurt! I didn't correlate it to Pinocchio because the two criminals were tortured by Macaulay Culkin as Kevin McCallister, rather than Pinocchio was tortured for his bad choices in this story. Again a surprise for me to see this in your post!! Isn't it so much fun upturning these wonders.
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ah ha - yes, the Trinity - so many analogies - maybe that is it - we talk about the classics and maybe this is our real lesson - that a classic allows for many, not only deeper understandings based on stories we hold most dear like the Bible and for many the Greek, Roman, Irish and Norse myths but also, we can see various aspects of the parable based on our various viewpoints.
I became more curious about the cat and the fox to see if they represented something that is no longer part of our modern associations. So of course turned to my trusty Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols by JC Cooper - still find this to be the better book for researching literary symbols - any how sure enough - the Fox we still do associate with cunning however, more...turns out the Christian interpretation is The Devil, the deceiver, cunning, guile, fraud, feigning death to trap its prey; the treachery and stratagems of Satan.
Get this, interesting side note, the Scandinavian interpretation is the 'light of the fox' is the aurora Borealis.
But knowing our story was written in Tuscany Italy the choice of a Fox is really ominous.
Wow - had no idea the choice of a cat is just as ominous - The Christian symbolism for a cat is also Satan; darkness, lust; laziness. I have heard some preach that Satan comes to us in many guises - yet, I have seen photos and read stories of the many cats that at one time in the hundreds were present at various Italian landmark buildings and statues. I'm thinking maybe this is no longer true since there are so many tourists that would scare them away - An interesting dichotomy, the many cats, (I guess feral cats) roaming the streets of Italy where symbolically they are associated with the Devil.
I am also thinking we still douse the poor with cold water - not fugitively, but symbolically we make it so difficult for them and prefer assisting them as the 'other' - therefore, we are more at ease helping them if they live in far off places than those in our own community.
How much fun you are planning Bellamarie - to look at other well known fairy-tales and see them as a surface to a deeper story - what a great project you are taking on...
Well starting tomorrow we go into chapter 13 through 24. Lots of encounters that remind me more of a string of short stories tied together. The information about Collodi says that when the story was first published in the newspaper it stopped at what is now chapter 15 with the hanging death of Pinocchio and he was urged to continue - the continuation appears seamless enough - I wonder if there was any adjustment made to the hanging scene so the story could seamlessly continue - so tomorrow we are into the continued story that eventually was published as a book 3 years after it's newspaper debut.
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I saw the cat and the fox as the devil. They tempt and trick Pinocchio, just like Lucifer did Adam and Eve, and continues to do so today with anyone willing to be tempted. This is why I teach my CCD religion students to be on guard because the devil comes in many different forms.
Good find Barb about the original newspaper ending was the hanging death of Pinocchio. Interesting since Jesus hanging on the cross was the ending of his story as well. After I read my short 56 pg book, then read the 338 version I felt like it should and could have ended much sooner. There are things in the longer version that did not appear in the shorter version. The ending is a bit different as well, I was clearly able to see the Trinity in full light on the last page in my short version, that did not give the the same feeling in the longer version, because the ending went further. I'll comment more about this once we have completed the book.
The other fairy tales were just jumping out at me as I read along, so I kept notes as I would find one. It's like an "OH GEE!" moment. I love when I read a book and see so much more into it. Another surprise story/movie is The Lorax. I watched it with my grandchildren for the first time last Christmas and I was jumping out of my chair recognizing how it followed scripture, parables and Bible teaching. My nine year old granddaughter was amazed as I pointed it out to her. She goes to a Catholic elementary school so she was very familiar as I would explain to her how the characters and things happening follow our faith. My hubby was quite shocked as well since he had watched it many times and never saw it before.
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This is great Pinocchio museums and parks in Italy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK2R0lHCPnQ
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Clearly, Pinocchio is much loved in Italy. Why? I'm betting children really identify with him: a good heart, but taken in by evil impulses over and over.
There is also an element of the Pickarest (I can't spell it!) novel (like Tom Jones by Henry Fielding)
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Tried to track down Joan the Pickarest - spelled it without the K and with a w and instead of the i I used an ea and also did an i where the e is in the rest - all to no avail - can you define the character or the book the character further - I sorta get the sound of the name but cannot put it together in my mind.
You opened up though so many other possibilities of many books that include choses presented to a character, who is trusting or thinks they can solve some dilemma that the choice ends up being a solution presented by someone with ill intent or even without Satin figure the innocent choice becomes the making of his own demise.
Even the early book Pilgrim's Progress when on the road Christian is traveling with Hopeful and they decide to walk in the sweet meadow adjacent to the path that is alternately rocky and muddy - realizing their mistake they double back and fall asleep during the night not know they were on the grounds belonging to the Giant Despair, who snatches them and brings them to the dungeon of his castle, Doubting Castle.
The Giant's wife, Mrs. Diffidence (in Bunyan's time still meant, unbelief with Confidence it's opposite meaning trust) wants them beaten and starved to death. The prisoners, Christian and Hopeful escape because hidden in his shirt Christian suddenly remembers that he has a magic key called Promise, that will open all the doors and gates of the castle, and they escape back to the Holy Way.
Sounds to me much like some of the escapades in the Adventures of Pinocchio.
Ha ho, just thought, is that not the story of Oedipus - he did not want to accept his fate and using his freedom he is victimized by his own hand - it too is a tale of caution with Oedipus pitted between being doomed by fate and undermined by his own hand.
Today we are so busy making sure we take responsibility for all our actions that our biggest downfall is taking responsibility for the actions of others especially family members. If we did this or that, rather than that or this it would not happen or the culprit would have acted differently.
We are looking at Pinocchio as if he should be responsible and even the story suggests to become a real boy he must, if not take responsibility at least obey his elders. Maybe as elders we need more Blue Angels.
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I think what the message of responsibility is for Pinocchio, is that he should do as his elders teach him because they love him and want only what is best for him, so yes, he will eventually grow up to be a "real boy." Isn't this really what all parents and loved ones want for their children? We must teach them and yes, allow them also to make their own choices, good or bad, so they can see the consequences of their choices to help them be confident, or to learn from. Pinocchio really is your average little boy. He has a good heart, he wants to please, he wants acceptance, he wants friends, and he promises to do better each time he is forgiven. Again, that is exactly what most all children want. I took my ccd students to reconciliation this past Wed. and explained to them how once the priest absolves them of all their sins, their slate is clean at that moment, until of course you begin to sin again, which we all will due to our humanness. While walking back to class one of my students said to me, "I feel so good." This is how I see Pinocchio each time he is forgiven.
The blue angel reminded me of my loved ones who have passed on and send me messages daily. Their spirit is active in me and guide me, and remind me of the love within.
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Yes, as we see most little boys - my reaction is the exclusive 'obey your elders' as protection that I see rampant today - I can hardly blame most parents with the changes in our neighborhoods but with the loss to children of running free to try and experiment either with a pal or a small group there seems to be more oversight by elders that hold tight strings. I worry that as young adults these children are only prepared to follow a leader and rules without the self-learned and self-practice of knowing their limits, especially their own practiced limits of behavior and conversation unless, it was practiced in secret and then, as young adults that secret nature is how they view the world so that trust is not easily accessed.
Few of us can imagine a child today having the freedom to roam or to be left alone to take care of himself that we are reading was natural for a young boy when this story was written?
Certainly the secretive, manipulative, coercive nature of those with ill intent towards a victim has not changed has it? The Cat and Fox are alive and strong - the parrot reminds me of the media or a neighborhood gossips that seem to be valued today. I know we have a few on our neighborhood facebook that help us know the problems in the area, with tips how to protect ourselves from a few unsavory, hate to say it but, neighborhood troubled teens who have been working on the dark-side during the night. So that part of the story holds after 130+ years.
I think we are struck by the goodness that keeps Pinocchio continually rewarded as an extension of his good heart - an example in the first chapters was his concern and his dilemma how to protect his new friends from being thrown in the flame by the fire-eater, who Disney is now called out since the character he depicted is as a money-grubbing Jewish gypsy rather than, Mangiafuoco, who is tyrannical as well as, tender, generous & forgiving - yes, Pinocchio wants acceptability however, he is easily coerced into fantastical ideas of promise by those with devious intent.
I am wondering - we can so easily fall into the trap having seen the Disney version that this is a morality tale - I think the snake scene helps us see another glimpse at life's journey with good and bad as secondary - Pinocchio's life's journey includes the dark side of every aspect of good. Even the Blue Fairy does not always offer a gentle, warm message.
I was so confused by the snake scene - it was short and almost felt like an interruption to the story. Why - why was it included - how was this bit aiding our understanding of the theme?
For this I had to go on a hunt - found two prevailing although, not exclusive messages - the one repeated message is without a mother birthing Pinocchio he jumps into a journey of a pre-teen and young teen which for a boy include initiation rights in most societies that break the attachment a boy has to not only his mother but all his female associations - this break is often in ceremony that includes a snake that is considered the female phallic - he, like all boys could not lead a father, a boy's greatest authority, out of the shark without having first broken his attachment to the females.
And the second message has to do with either the newly unified Italy or the church that are not what they seem - that any authority can easily explode and die with only one small aspect of the leadership or cooperation between parts failing, as the vein fails in the serpent. And more, for powerful leadership making fun of what they think is an obvious given can be its downfall. Like the French Revolution and the break in the Church between East and West and the church losing power and control with the rise of a united Italy, so too any powerful authority can easily explode.
This tale appears to have so many sides to it - no wonder in Italy it is considered as important a book as those written by Dante.
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I have to say it is a stretch for me to see Pinocchio has to break all ties from the females, considering he saw the blue fairy as a sister/mother figure and never really does unattach from her.
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It is sure not the way we raise boys today is it - however, there are ceremonies that are about just that - several web sites go into how Pinocchio was raised motherless and the Blue Fairy is seen as taking on that role and the Blue Fairy dies to him at the time of the snake as well as, before the pigeon flies him to where his father was last seen.
My 'history' of sites visited only recorded a few of the sites - I think because one bled into the next and were not directly 'Googled' - - here are two...
http://mondodomani.org/dialegesthai/il02.htm
http://cw.routledge.com/ref/religionandsociety/rites/gender.pdf
All the Italian sites that I read have nothing good to say about Disney and most wish he had named his move an adaptation of... or something that separated it from the message of the real story.
It is slow going because Google only translates a certain amount than I have to copy and paste the remainder and bit by bit put it into a translation web site. I cannot find BlueFish anywhere - they made it easier - all I had to do was enter the URL and the entire article or website was translated.
Reading all of this another aha - it appears Italians see the bible not wrapped in stories of good or preferred behavior over the bad, sinful behavior - Italians interpret the entire Bible, in web site after web site, as a book of redemption - what is good or bad is not an issue - I guess it is assumed that we all make choices that hurt someone or ourselves - it is the only thing I can think of as to why good versus bad or evil is not a message - but it sure puts a different consideration understanding literature since this approach says the highest value for the Italian culture is redemption, forgiveness, where bad behavior is the betraying of God by not offering forgiveness. It also explains the huge gap between Church and the legal arm of the state. No wonder the scene of being imprisoned in the Land of Simple Simon.
Looking at Italian history I can see how often we in the US say, Italy does not have a strong backbone or as a nation they do not stand for anything - I remember, especially after WWII they were almost excused for not being strong enough to pull back from Germany, it was said that Germany drew Italy into the war. The brutal death of Mussolini and the horrific after death was supposed to represent Italian's innocents avenging themselves with the sacrifice of their weak leader. With the Italian population's penchant towards redemption I'm thinking, if the national characteristic is to play the scamp followed by receiving, or offering forgiveness then, there are no lines in the sand.
Geppetto sure represents that aspect of the national character. Forgiveness may look softer without hard boundaries but in fact if you have ever had to forgive what seems like the unforgivable there is nothing soft about it.
Talk about opening Pandora's box - this simple little tale ends up being not only a masterpiece but the key to understanding better the Italian Christian character.
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I am of Italian descent and I feel like forgiveness is a much more important focus of Christianity, versus good and evil.
Barb, "Forgiveness may look softer without hard boundaries but in fact if you have ever had to forgive what seems like the unforgivable there is nothing soft about it."
Never a truer statement, but..... I can vouch for Italians, when they have been trespassed upon it takes them years to forgive. In this story it sort of amazed me at how instantly Pinocchio is forgiven by Gepetto and the Blue Fairy, with no punishment, regardless of how many times he disobeyed them. Maybe the author felt the torture Pinocchio suffers from his on demise was enough punishment.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/pinocchio/cvr.jpg)
| Come on - Join us
We are discussing an old Italian tale that Walt Disney changed into a children's colorful animated musical.
Our discussion is the original tale.
We're finishing this discussion on Tuesday, Dec. 15.
Starting on Tuesday, Dec. 15, a Holiday Discussion will finish out the month.
A Gutenberg link to: The Adventures of Pinocchio (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/500/500-h/500-h.htm)
Tuesday, Dec. 1 through Sunday, Dec. 6 --- The First 12 Chapters
Monday, Dec. 7 through Friday, Dec. 11 --- Chapters 13 to 24
Saturday, Dec. 12 through Tuesday, Dec. 15 --- Chapters 25 to 36
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Helpful Links: - Background: The Never Ending Adventures of Pinocchio (https://quintessentialruminations.wordpress.com/2013/03/01/the-never-ending-adventures-of-pinocchio/)
- Carlo Lorenzini, pseudonym Carlo Collodi (http://static.torontopubliclibrary.ca/ve/pinocchio/collodi.html)
Focus Questions- 1. A fairy tales is constructed with characters overcoming obstacles which push the tale forward, so that the story is of goodness and obedience rewarded. What is the goodness in Pinocchio so that he is continually rewarded?
- 2. In what Opera is Alidoro and what is his character? How is the dog similar to Alidoro?
- 3. What change do you think happened that boys today are not as inclined to play hooky and it is not as popular to assume that boys hate school?
- 4. What is the symbolic meaning for the color azure Blue? The lady with the Azure Hair is magical, do you see her in the story more as a spirit?
- 5. In addition to Harlequin and Pulcinella what other characters from the Commedia Dell'Arte does Collodi use in the story?
- 6. Reviewing, when you first read the words of the Cricket did you think his words would be the ones to outline and announce the story?
- 7. There are many scenes involving water, from tears to the sea - how does water symbolically fit the theme of this story?
- 8. Pinocchio stumbles upon numerous animals who have human qualities and traits, the most common of which are the gifts of speech and reason, in literature called Anthropomorphism. Let's name the characters that were used in later stories especially by Disney.
- 9. As soon as Pinocchio receives his donkey ears, Pinocchio begins listening to Geppetto and the Blue Fairy. Is there a reason for this transformation? What does a donkey symbolize? Learning the symbolism does Jesus riding into town on a donkey on Palm Sunday have a deeper meaning and understanding?
- 10. Collodi, typical to most fairytales uses the number 3 many times in the story - Who are Pinocchio's three mentors? - In what separate scenes was he choked 3 times? - What were the Blue Fairy's three symbolic deaths and rebirths? - Pinocchio experiences three different physical states—wood, animal, and man. What symbolically does Pinocchio's transformations mean to the story?
Discussion Leaders: Barb St. Aubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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Been mulling over the concept of Redemption being the key to not only the Bible but if it is the viewpoint taken from the bible it must also be the viewpoint of the Church - and aside from that or really regardless of all that, to feature redemption in my heart is a shift - may not always be easy but certainly feels more loving so that I could even quit condemning myself in this pursuit of right behavior and wrong behavior - living a mea culpa life does little for trusting yourself but only reminds us of how we can blow it and therefore, be cautious even when boldness would be more appropriate. ah so... a lot to think about.
This book continues to be the surprise that keeps on coming - Had ordered, I thought, an annotated version but what arrived did not say annotated and the few bits that explained a few words was not what I had in mind when I think annotated - there was a free annotated version for the kindle and another that cost .99 so I downloaded both. Finding out one amazing bit after the next, only last night did I go to the second annotated version and sure enough another wow - I had never heard of this guy...
The simple sentence that opened another Pandora's box is - The popularity of the story was bolstered by the powerful philosopher-critic Benedetto Croce who greatly admired the tale.
So who in the world is Benedetto Croce??? becomes the next question... Turn to some Italian links and this is all I could get till whatever the program they used would shut me out.
Benedetto Croce was born in Pescasseroli, in the province of L'Aquila, 25 February 1866. Writer, philosopher, historian and politician, lived in a very conservative and wealthy family who decides to do this form at a religious college. In 1883, at the age of seventeen assists in what will prove to be the most traumatic event of his life. During a trip to the island of Ischia, he is a victim and a witness to one of the most difficult moments in the history of the island on the night of July 28, at 21:30, in about ninety seconds an earthquake causes the loss of life to 2,313 people. Among these we are also the parents of Benedict, Pasquale and Luisa curtains, and his sister Maria.
Flooded from the rubble but survived this tragic event, Croce moved to Rome at the home of his uncle, the senator Silvio Spaventa . In this new arrangement has the opportunity to meet leading politicians and intellectuals as it forms and is confronted; among these there is also the Italian philosopher Antonio Labriola , which will follow the lessons of moral philosophy in Rome and which often remain in touch.
Joined the faculty of law at the University of Naples, Croce left school and, in 1886 - this is as far as I could get.
The Britannica tells us that he is Italy's "foremost" Philosopher - wow - still never heard of him but he is renowned at least in Italy.
http://www.britannica.com/biography/Benedetto-Croce
Not sure how you can be a realist and an idealist but that is another whole area of study and research...
this site is a bit much but it does tell us that Croce worked in the US with varying degrees of success that sounds like it never matched the position of respect he enjoyed in Italy. However, it does tell us this was not a philosopher tied to one nation and he had a voice in the philosophical community.
http://www.nhinet.org/roberts.htm
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All this leads us to - he was enthralled with Collodi's Pinocchio - I could not find a link to an English web site - and so here are the bits from these Italian websites that allow me to copy and paste the translated version. The English translations are crude but you can figure it out...
The judgment of the Cross is explicit and clear: "It is a human book, and find the ways of the heart. The author began writing the story of the eccentric adventures of a wooden puppet to attract the curiosity and imagination of children and administered through quell'ammaestramento, observations and moral admonitions.
Not surprisingly, he adds Cross, "here and there you are, in fact, some few small educational emphases. But soon he took interest in the character and its fortunes as the story of human life, of good and evil, of errors and ravvedimenti, of giving in to temptation, to convenient, whims, and resist and get up and retrieve my, of recklessness and prudence, selfishness and motions of those high and generous. The wood, which is cut Pinocchio, is humanity ... ".
"The story is driven in frivolous tone, with perfect aplomb, between imagination and many pirouettes riflessioncelle and mottos; and yet it never falls into mere extravagant and nell'insulso ".
Cross sums up, with a few quotes from the book, some of the main scenes:
"Scenes of modest goodness" (like when "the old and poor Geppetto, seeing his son Pinocchio desirous of a primer for learning to read, the jacket sells for comperarglielo ");
"Scenes of moral integrity" (as when the "puppeteer Eater gives grace to Pinocchio, but throw it in the fire, in his stead, Harlequin" and Pinocchio, proudly, does not shirk his duty towards his friend, doing all move , puppets and puppeteer);
"Scenes of mischief and innocence" (as in the meeting of Pinocchio "the fox lame" and "blind cat" who want truffargli a sum of money and offer a deal and Pinocchio, accepting promises to both a gift that they, falsely indignant and offended, they refuse);
"Scenes of human weakness" (as when Pinocchio, already deceived by the cat and the fox, "despite the experience, despite the advice and warnings received ... all'incontrarsi over again with the same cheats, falling back");
"Scenes of gratitude and emotion," Finally, (like when the "old tuna door pel sea to rescue Pinocchio and his father", and reached the shore, Pinocchio thanked him and kisses him). Cross does not fail to underline that by '' intrigue and adventure of the story takes place, constantly resurgent and always victorious, the moral force of goodness. "
Cross concludes his brief essay with this judgment: "Pinocchio was written vein, in a happy moment, that the author found himself more in his other books, where even pages are pleasant."
Rounding out the text two final notes, the first dedicated to a quote from the rightly famous "Praise of Pinocchio" by P. Pancratii that "behind Pinocchio" saw again "the little Italian King Umberto honest", "with the rightness of impression and word," as Croce; the other dedicated to a short bibliography of the other writings of Carlo Lorenzini.
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From yet, another Italian site - after the poem there were a few paragraphs that I could not capture but this gets enough for us...
Between 1903 and 1904 Benedetto Croce wrote his "Critical Essays" on "Literature of the new Italy," meaning that literature flourished after 1860, ie after the hoped-for fulfillment of unity of the nation. The work, published in five volumes by Giuseppe Laterza, experienced vast fortune and did not fail to arouse high and wide debate.
Among the various essays space is a short but significant written four pages and a few lines: Pinocchio. A few lines, and in terms of literary criticism can also leave everything unchanged, when he had to say in 1954 Louis Volpicelli, but that earned him the already famous puppet character of the license of Italian literature. Pinocchio is raised among the great product because it is not only educational, step among many of a considerable literature for children, but like adults and like it because, to use the words of the Cross "is a human book, and find the ways of the heart." Nor Guido Gozzano, the large and still little-loved poet late twilight, neglects to mention it "Miss Felicity" or "Of Happiness", Pinocchio, which becomes a metaphor for the narrator and the whole of humanity to the extent that this It is composed of many Pinocchios:
the song of a cricket singing
I said the words, little by little,
and I saw Pinocchio and my destiny ...
… More simply, it should not just go back to the short and perhaps neglected notes Croce an, where we talk about ways of the heart, of human weakness, of moral rectitude, of gratitude, of emotion, of mischief, the moral force of goodness. This is Pinocchio, without emphasis absurd, and it is this rooted in the popular consciousness is the secret of his fortune, beyond and above any rhetoric, in which however the Collodi never does fall puppet, sometimes generous and gullible, often fake and a liar, always true.
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P. Pancratii that "behind Pinocchio" saw again "the little Italian King Umberto honest", From article above
Victor Emmanuel, born in Naples, Italy, the only child of Umberto I, King of Italy. Unlike his paternal first cousin's son, the 1.98 m (6-foot 6") tall Amedeo, Victor Emmanuel was short of stature even by 19th-century standards, to the point that today he would appear diminutive. He was just 1.53 m tall (just over 5 feet).
On 29 July 1900, at the age of 30, Victor Emmanuel ascended the throne upon his father's assassination. The only advice that his father Umberto ever gave his heir was "Remember: to be a king, all you need to know is how to sign your name, read a newspaper, and mount a horse"
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Seems so far we've done a pretty good job interpreting this story as well as 18th century philosophers! Well I am not the least bit surprised considering Senior Learn has some pretty brilliant members with keen minds and eyes. Hooray for us!
Barb, "to feature redemption in my heart is a shift - may not always be easy but certainly feels more loving so that I could even quit condemning myself in this pursuit of right behavior and wrong behavior - living a mea culpa life does little for trusting yourself but only reminds us of how we can blow it and therefore, be cautious even when boldness would be more appropriate. ah so... a lot to think about."
I personally have always seen my Christian faith based more on "forgiveness and love" rather good versus evil. For me as a Catholic Christian, I know Jesus is our example of the love of our Father, in which God sent us His only Son to teach us about His great love for us, and then to know He died for our sins to be forgiven. What greater love is there, then to die for another's sins?
I'm glad you are thinking more about the forgiveness rather than "condemning yourself in the pursuit of right behavior and wrong behavior." I think the Baltimore Catechism teaching emphasized the good versus evil, making children feel ashamed of themselves and their sins. In all my years of teaching religion which goes back to the 1970s to the present day, the teachings have been focused more on "forgiveness and love."
Barb it seems you are having a bit of an epiphany....so little Pinocchio's story is giving you much to think about. Good for you!
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In so many ways is this book giving me something to think about - but then reading has been basic to my understanding of life since childhood - I love seeking and finding the deeper meaning in a story but this just is blowing me away. I had no idea... It is like I want to ring the bells and attempt to tell everyone how much more there has always been to the story of Pinocchio - how we thought it was a simple cute fantasy story about the impossible but rather, it is steeped in symbolism and respected for those messages so that in Italy it is a story raised to the level of Dante.
I am smiling Bellamarie - you are a true child of your heritage - to have seen life through the eyes of "forgiveness and love" - wow what a glorious gift - sometimes we are not even aware of our gifts in life and that sure is one to be grateful for that is not typical for many. I must say though, some live through horrendous experiences at the hands of others and to forgive is complicated.
Often first, as a victim busy taking care of themselves you have to own the other was wrong and then to forgive feels, for a long time as if all your work taking care of yourself is minimized to nothingness as the nemesis is greater than realized and beyond control. If someone or a system was wrong, a system so much greater than yourself, that realization makes you feel powerless so that the least you can do for your own psyche is blame yourself - with this focus adjusting your view on your experiences of never having a chance, it comes down to right and wrong which becomes the lens to even see yourself.
I am anxious to see the new movie that Ron Howard directs, In the Heart of the Sea: The Tragedy of the Whaleship Essex that was the story retold by Melville as Moby Dick. I am thinking that belief systems can take on the power of brute force with no mind but with some kind of common instinct driving them forward destroying all that is in their way. ISIS today is like the whale as is anyone with a destructive obsession.
Well let's finish this up - you did read to the end so it will not be so hard will it - I am thinking I'll go ahead and get the 3rd and last section started and up sometime tomorrow - I've a bunch of errands in the morning - we can always go back if something comes up that this section prompted while we are gathering our thoughts about the last chapters. Then the second part of December's discussions (that I am still preparing - oh dear double time) anyhow I can get it up a bit early - Instead of next Friday the 18th, it will be Wednesday the 16th.
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I too have so much I want to yell to the housetops about this story that I have learned and know others have not seen due to looking at it as just one more child's fairy tales, or Disney movies. The funny thing is, my hubby seems to be the only one interested in my discoveries. He is kind and good and will listen to me rant on and on.......
Barb, Often first, as a victim busy taking care of themselves you have to own the other was wrong and then to forgive feels, for a long time as if all your work taking care of yourself is minimized to nothingness as the nemesis is greater than realized and beyond control. If someone or a system was wrong, a system so much greater than yourself, that realization makes you feel powerless so that the least you can do for your own psyche is blame yourself - with this focus adjusting your view on your experiences of never having a chance, it comes down to right and wrong which becomes the lens to even see yourself.
I so can relate to everything you have expressed. I too have had to live through some injustices in my life, and acts that were deplorable, and possibly unforgivable, and much like the Italians I am guilty of holding grudges for these. Ultimately, good people suffer the most when they are not ready or able to forgive tresspasses against them, because as you point out, you spend a fair amount of time in blaming yourself, which interferes with your peace, happiness and relationships with trusting others. I spent way too long a time trying to protect myself from being hurt again, yet when I went to confession and still could not move on, I realized it was me giving too much power to the ones who actually hurt me. Forgiveness is not necessarily about forgiving others, but releasing ourselves of the bondage we are place in when we are not able to forgive. Forgiveness is for ourselves, so we can move on
I mentioned before, I think Geppetto, the blue fairy and others forgave Pinocchio immediately. I suppose that shows unconditional love. Yes, I did read to the end, so going ahead and finishing the third part sounds good to me. I truly appreciate all the hard work you have put into this discussion. You as always, have helped me see beyond just the surface of the story.
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All we can do I guess is pass it on that there is more indepth to what we read - I know I could not read without my books of literary symbols - I have 3 but it is the one by Cooper that has the best information. I remember how surprised I was to learn how the most innocuous words have symbolic meaning that change the theme of many a story. I must say I have looked online and found pretty good explanations of they symbolic meaning for many objects, colors, numbers, animals, birds, flowers etc.
Onward I thought it was 'right on' how finally Pinocchio really seems to say with more seriousness than earlier that he wanted to do those things that good boys do - but, and this is where I smile - he only sees it as a benefit to what he really wants - to grow taller and because being a "Marionette has grown very tiresome to me and I want to become a boy, no matter how hard it is".
Huh I wonder - is that when we go through the work of forgiveness - all of a sudden we realize no one can make us feel better but ourselves and enough is enough.
How easily the boys could discount every obstacle Pinocchio brought to their attention why he 'should' go to school - reminds me of an old Zig Ziglar quote; "People often say that motivation doesn't last. Well, neither does bathing - that's why we recommend it daily."
With the kind of persuasion to act like the bad kids that Pinocchio gets handed to him I am thinking he would need a daily dose of motivation from someone other than his own resolve.
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OK new list of focus questions are in the heading - I think we can have fun looking up this stuff - nothing beyond the typical understanding of a piece of literature - it does not appear there are more folks uncovered from Italy that elevated this story beyond anything we ever imagined...
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#4. What is the symbolic meaning for the color azure Blue? The lady with the Azure Hair is magical, do you see her in the story more as a spirit?
This link was pretty interesting: http://www.empower-yourself-with-color-psychology.com/color-blue.html
In the meaning of colors, blue relates to one-to-one communication, especially communication using the voice - speaking the truth through verbal self-expression - it is the teacher, the public speaker.
The color blue is idealistic, enhancing self-expression and our ability to communicate our needs and wants. It inspires higher ideals.
Blue's wisdom comes from its higher level of intelligence, a spiritual perspective.
Blue is the color of the spirit, devotion and religious study. It enhances contemplation and prayer. On the other hand, blue's devotion can be to any cause or concept it believes in, including devotion to family or work.
Blue is the helper, the rescuer, the friend in need. It's success is defined by the quality and quantity of its relationships. It is a giver, not a taker. It likes to build strong trusting relationships and becomes deeply hurt if that trust is betrayed.
I think this analysis pretty much sums up the Azure fairy. I saw her as a spirit, much like the Holy Spirit who is trying to guide Pinocchio to do good so he can become a human. Much like the Holy Spirit guides Christians to do their very best to become more like God's Son Jesus, the human man on earth.
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Had not had a chance to look up blue and you found a treasure chest full - did not know that - "Blue is the helper, the rescuer, the friend in need. It's success is defined by the quality and quantity of its relationships. It is a giver, not a taker. It likes to build strong trusting relationships and becomes deeply hurt if that trust is betrayed." Puts a deeper spin on the hurt the Lady with the Azure Hair must have felt with Pinocchio's continuing escapades.
I must say I was surprised when right off in the story Pinocchio squashes the Cricket after seeing the huge part he played in Disney's movie - and for sure I did not give him credit for summing up the outcome of the story - reminds me of the bible of Matthew...
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me: which is to be understood, not in so limited a sense, as to regard only the apostles, and the least of them, for these were not the only brethren of Christ; nor in so large a sense, as to include all in human nature; but the saints only, the children of God, and household of faith: for though acts of charity and humanity are to be done to all men, ... now he that does any of the above acts of kindness to these "brethren" of Christ, and because they stand in such a relation to him, even the "least" of them: though he is not an apostle, or a martyr, or a preacher of the Gospel, or has any considerable gifts and abilities for usefulness, but is a weak believer in spiritual things, as well as poor in temporal things;
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10. Collodi, typical to most fairytales uses the number 3 many times in the story - Who are Pinocchio's three mentors? - In what separate scenes was he choked 3 times? - What were the Blue Fairy's three symbolic deaths and rebirths? - Pinocchio experiences three different physical states—wood, animal, and man. What symbolically does Pinocchio's transformations mean to the story?
http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/3.html
The Meaning of Numbers: The Number 3
The number 3 is used 467 times in the Bible. It pictures completeness, though to a lesser degree than 7. The meaning of this number derives from the fact that it is the first of four spiritually perfect numerals (the others being 7, 10 and 12). The 3 righteous patriarchs before the flood were Abel, Enoch and Noah. After the deluge there was the righteous "fathers" Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (later renamed Israel).
There are 27 books in the New Testament, which is 3x3x3, or completeness to the third power.
Jesus prayed three times in the Garden of Gethsemane before His arrest. He was placed on the cross at the 3rd hour of the day (9 a.m.) and died at the 9th hour (3 p.m.). There were 3 hours of darkness that covered the land while Jesus was suffering on the cross from the 6th hour to the 9th hour. Three is the number of resurrection. Christ was dead for three full days and three full nights, a total of 72 hours, before being resurrected on Saturday, April 8, just before sunset.
Appearances of the number three
There were only three individuals who witnessed Jesus’ transfiguration on Mount Hermon. Those who saw Jesus' glory on the mount were John, Peter and James.
The apostle Paul was an exceptionally well educated person. In three different occasions he quotes directly from Greek poets (Acts 17:28, 1Corinthians 15:33 and Titus 1:12). He also was privileged to visit the location of God's throne, which is in the third heaven (2Corinthians 12:2 - 4).
The three words that appear only once in Scripture are Reverend (Psalms 111:9), Eternity (Isaiah 57:15) and Grandmother (2Timothy 1:5).
Only three people were allowed to ask God ANYTHING. They were Solomon (1Kings 3:5), Ahaz (Isaiah 7:11) and, of course, Jesus Christ (Psalm 2:9).
The three gifts given to Israel by God were his law, the land of their inheritance, and their calling (the world to come).
The Bible only mentions the name of three angels (Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer).
Three in Prophecy
Next to seven, 3 is the most commonly found or referenced number in Revelation. An angel is charged to cry three woe's to those who live on earth to warn them of more trials to come (Revelation 8:13). The murdered bodies of the Two Witnesses will not be allowed to be buried but rather will lie openly in Jerusalem for three days before they are resurrected. Three unclean spirits will be allowed to deceive the whole world to FIGHT the returning Jesus Christ in what is called the battle of Armageddon (Revelation 16:13 - 16). The new Jerusalem, created by God for placement on a new earth, will be shaped like a square with three gates on each side (Revelation 21:13).
Additional info on the Biblical Meaning of 3
God is described, in the very beginning of the book of Revelation, as a Being "which is, and which was, and which is to come" (Revelation 1:4).
There are 3 great periods of God's annual Feast days of worship. They are the Spring festivals (Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread), the summer festival (Pentecost) and the Fall festivals (Feast of Trumpets, Atonement and Feast of Tabernacles).
I also can see how the number 3 represents other important things in Christianity such as, The Blessed Trinity, the Sacred Triduum. Holy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday form a three part journey of faith that we should all participate in so that we can really experience the joy and the transforming power of Easter Sunday. Jesus hung on the cross for 3 hours, there were three wise men and three gifts given, the cross has three positions, twelve tribes of Israel a denominator of 3, Israel was conquered three millennia ago, and many other events that you will find also in this article.
https://bible.org/seriespage/3-use-three-bible
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Three does seem to be a Biblical number isn't it - wow, 467 times in the Bible - did not realize only 3 angles are mentioned in the Bible - I wonder where the names for the other angels came from? Like Daniel, Kamael, the Sephirah Netzach, forgot his name but the celestial scribe, oh and Raphael, and the lamp of God, Uriel - hmm how did we get the names of these other angles I wonder - well another research project but now onward for our Three's
J.C. Cooper adds - creative power, growth, forward movement, overcoming dualities. The first number in which the word "all" is applied and the Triad is the number of the whole, in so much it contains a beginning, middle and an end.
Well now we can see ever further significance can't we of the Trinity and the many uses of the number 3 in the Bible. Cooper continues with many more relationships to God including the Holy Family and then turns to Folklore: Folk Tales, Fairytales, Myth and Legend includes, three wishes, three tries, three witches, three weird sisters - There are innumerable trinities of gods and powers, triune lunar deities and threefold goddesses. (And so our Blue Fairy had to die and come back three times to be true to Folklore)
And then the ancient use of three from the triangle, three interwoven circles , the trident, fleur-de-lis, trefoil, triple thunderbolt, the three rabbits in the moon, the ternary; sulphur, quicksilver and salt representing spirit, soul and body and among the particular Christian symbolism (these three sounds like it is for our Pinocchio) transformation, temptations, denials plus the three gifts of the Magi.
While reading I was not as aware of the significance to the story of the three till reviewing and remember at the time it felt like the Lady with the Azure hair was playing tricks being dead and then not and saw this happened the 3 times - so than of course looked for other happenings that matched the number 3 - I think the three that to me felt the most profound was the metamorphose of Pinocchio from wood to animal before he was man.
Sure enough wood is the prima materia of the East, (Birth) therefore, Christ as carpenter uses tools symbolic of the divine power bringing order out of chaos and is associated with the color blue in addition to green.
;) Of course had to look up the carpenter tools - yes!!! Well here we go -
We use the square to measure all our lines, to straighten out the crooked places of the way, and make the corners of our conduct square; the compass to draw the circles around our passions and desires to keep them in the bounds of righteousness; the ax to cut away the knotty, useless and ungainly parts and make the character symmetrical.
We use the hammer to drive home the truth, and pound it in until it is a part of every part; the plane
to smooth the rough, uneven surface of joint, and block and board that go to build the temple for the truth. The chisel, line, the plummet and the saw have their uses in the workshop of the mind. And then the ladder with its trinity of steps, faith, hope, and love.
According to Cooper the symbolic meaning for animal include - the instinctual and emotional urges which must be transcended before man can enter the spiritual realms - Theriomorphism is explained by Porphyry, "Under the semblance of animals the Egyptians worship the universal power which the gods have revealed in the various forms of living nature." Animals that must be tamed or slain in myth and legend, are man's animal instincts brought under control.
aha So that is why not only does Pinocchio become the donkey with shameful ears but he climbed on the back of a boy/donkey and the wagon driver tames the donkeys with a whip. hmmm
And then finally, man is the symbol between God and Nature, symbol of universal existence, representing earth, the heat of the body, fire, the blood, water, the breath, the air
Wow, our Pinocchio takes quite a journey through the cosmic universe of God doesn't he.
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"We use the hammer to drive home the truth, and pound it in until it is a part of every part"
Our dear little Pinocchio used that hammer to pound poor Jiminy cricket to death, so he would stop telling him to live truthful and rightful. But....in the end in my shorter version of the book guess what it says on the last pages:
Father, and son looked up to the ceiling, and there on a beam sat the Talking Cricket. The Talking Cricket had forgiven Pinocchio for throwing a hammer at him, and offered a bed of straw to the father and son."
Here on the second to the last page of the story we have the Blessed Trinity united....then what happens next?
The Talking Cricket sends Pinocchio to Farmer John's house for the milk, Farmer John says til now a donkey has drawn his milk, the donkey ended up being Lamp Wick who is dying. From that day on Pinocchio works and studies and does good, and becomes human.
Imagine that.....if only he would have listened to the Talking Cricket in the first place, but then again isn't that how it is in real life? We must travel many paths to get to the right one, and in doing so many trials and tribulations await us.
Barb your information just keeps us learning more and more about this not so little fairy tale. Collodi was a pretty amazing author/theologian/philosopher in my opinion.
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It is no wonder Disney utilized the talking cricket - but these goodies written by Collodi keep coming - I was just amazed at this description for a Donkey in an other book of literary symbols on my shelves - this is by Ina Woolcott - gives another view of Pinocchio while he was a donkey - Cooper shows us that we must transcend our animal nature where as Woolcott shares from her research another viewpoint of the Donkey as valuable.
Donkey is symbolic of versatility, intelligence, eager worker, determination, stubbornness, spiritual dedication, undying faith in the creative force, willingness to take on-board the responsibilities and burdens of others (beast of burden).
Donkey’s have long been misrepresented and misunderstood by the ignorant masses. First domesticated roughly 4,500 years ago, they were regarded to be a status symbol for their owners. Versatile, eager workers with a kind nature and gentle intelligence donkeys can live for 40 years plus.
Donkeys colours range from white, grey to brown. In general they have white muzzles, rings around their eyes and light bellies. Some donkeys have markings on their back that look like a cross. Some have leg stripes. Various tales tell of how the donkey came to get the cross on their back. Some cultures believe the Lord rode the donkey and got the stripes on their legs from walking through the palm branches that were laid in their path as a mark of respect for the responsibility of whom they was carrying. Some tales imply the donkey was sent by God and the Prophet was carried to the heavens on its back.
The donkey is an indefatigable worker and personifies the qualities of determination and service to others. They have a deep dedication to the universe/All That Is. Donkeys are willing to take on the responsibilities and burdens of others. If this is your power animal, although helping others is wonderful, taking on more than one can carry with ease can pave the way for physical and emotional problems. Mastering the art of saying no, and being accountable for yourself and your own well being is a life lesson.
Not keen on change, donkeys can come across as stubborn. If anything seems dangerous to them – they absolutely won’t do it. However, this isn’t because they are stubborn, but because they trust, respect and listen to their own intuitive senses. They know their boundaries, what they can and cant do. This shows us how to trust, respect and listen to our own personal intuition also. now that I think is interesting and why I put it in Italics.
The donkey evolved in the desert, the irregular, testing land in where they resided learned them how to go about with caution. The frightened donkey would stop dead in its tracks without moving a muscle or run a short distance, before looking at what frightened them. They developed devious and cunning survival skills by getting themselves out of many sticky situations. If donkey plods into your life, hold on and consider what is challenging you and look for a way to progress safely. This is an outstanding power animal to have and a skilful master teacher.
Donkey have big, funnel like ears that can pick up sound a long way off. They know the messages held within each sound, showing us how to listen and awaken our clairvoyant abilities. You are being asked to awaken, develop or utilize your own latent, inherent abilities in one or more aspects of your life.
The last bit on the ears sure fits our story.
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I personally like this:
The donkey is an indefatigable worker and personifies the qualities of determination and service to others. They have a deep dedication to the universe/All That Is. Donkeys are willing to take on the responsibilities and burdens of others.
I feel Pinocchio had to go through the transformation of the donkey so he could experience and understand the service for others. It is in giving that we receive.
I also felt he had to go through the experience of being swallowed by the whale (reminded me of Jonah) to find his father, and to be willing to risk his own life to save his father's, (much like Jesus) Once Pinocchio experienced these lessons he was finally able to understand what being human was all about. Service and caring for others. Rather than him always receiving forgiveness from everyone else, he was finally giving to them all he had.
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I can think of several adults who never learned how to be human ;) Golly and some we actually elected - :'(
Back later - it is like Spring here, thank goodness since I still have to run a few errands...
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oh Bellamaria a mess - came in around 4: from a bunch of errands tired decided I needed a nap - well I just woke up and it is midnight - i am going back to bed and will probably be up early - we really did so well getting into this - the only aspect that there really is no time left to explore is the Commedia Dell'Arte. You can hardly read an author to this day from the continent of Europe, especially France and Italy and really understand what you are reading without being well antiquated with the characters from Commedia Dell'Arte and the subsequent traditional characters like Punch and Judy with the policeman.
OK this has been an eye opener and maybe that is it - you cannot get everything in one sweep - but we really did do it justice - thanks Bellamaria you really added so much insight. I will catch up and tie it up tomorrow. or rather today ;)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commedia_dell%27arte
Commedia dell'arte, conversely, was performed by professional actors (comici) who perfected a specific role or mask. Italian theater historians, such as Roberto Tessari, Ferdinando Taviani, and Luciano Pinto, believe commedia was a response to the political and economic crisis of the 16th century and, as a consequence, became the first entirely professional form of theater. This is debated though, as evidence shows that there were possibly acting unions prominent as far back as the Greek Times.
The characters of the commedia usually represent fixed social types, stock characters, such as foolish old men, devious servants, or military officers full of false bravado. Characters such as Pantalone, the miserly Venetian merchant; Dottore Graziano, the pedant from Bologna; or Arlecchino, the mischievous servant from Bergamo, began as satires on Italian "types" and became the archetypes of many of the favorite characters of 17th- and 18th-century European theatre.
As in this part of the article, I see the Commedia Dell'Arte much like the late night comedians of today. They use humor as a guise to get political or other points across to a vast majority of the public. The late night hosts do not wear the typical masks and costumes today, but they do indeed use the satire as in the earliest of centuries Commedia Dell'Arte was first recorded.
"The first recorded commedia dell'arte performances came from Rome as early as 1551.[4] Commedia dell'arte was performed outdoors in temporary venues by professional actors who were costumed and masked, as opposed to commedia erudita, which were written comedies, presented indoors by untrained and unmasked actors."
We have a comedy bar here in our town called The Funny Bone, where the comedian will stand and literally make fun of almost everyone in the audience. While they are very funny, at the same time they can be offensive. This reminded me of Pinocchio being called out of the audience and brought onto the stage with Harlequin and Pulcinella.
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Barb, I can appreciate how exhausted you were after a day of errands etc. I had a very busy week last week which led right into our annual sleepover/cookie bake with my 5 grandchildren on Saturday. We all got up early Sunday morning, ate breakfast, went to church and my hubby and I came home to cleaning up the pillows and blankets, and then I put up the Dept. 56 Dickens village, which took 3 hours, and then I crashed. Monday we wrapped presents the entire day. Today I must get my Christmas cards out. I may forego the usual letter I write, I'm not sure I am up to it, then off to pick up last minute gifts. Oh....I love this beautiful season, but it is exhausting no matter how much precise planning you put into it. My granddaughter's Christmas program is tonight so I suppose I will drop at the end of this day as well, only to get up and have another full day. Off to get my shower so I can begin this day. Have a wonderful day today, and thank you for the great discussion of Pinocchio. I would never have come to know this story for what it really is, had it not been for you choosing this story. Ciao for now~
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Exhaustion is thy name - hahaha - oh dear is that what we all remember about the holidays - but then there seems to be a greater reason to put out so much effort isn't there -
Off the subject of Pinocchio but I came across some photos that really shifted my consciousness - an old church up for sale - the owner did something startling that for a bit I was feeling almost as if a sacrilege till I really started to think about it - the owner cleaned it up and left the stained class windows and had these wonderful murals painted on ceiling and walls of gigantic colorful shapes that were similar to the background stained glass only at least 20 times bigger with a black line separating each shape and color - reminded me of flags and jester outfits from the middle ages - but the startling part was where the pews had been located was a curved floor in beautiful wood for skateboarders - yes, skateboarding in a building that was a church and still had some look of the church - and then it hit me - it is all God - skateboarding, attending Mass, scrubbing floors, taking naps, shopping, time spent making a life and it is all from God and for God - made me feel a lot less guilty about my long unplanned nap - it is OK - it is all a part of the fabric of our lives and the devotions we carry out in our lifetime.
To wrap up - I am so glad you found something about Commedia Dell'Arte - the traditional stories are also repeated in so many of our plays and TV series as well as the comic routines you noted. Here is a nice site with information about the characters and it includes a few of the scripted plays - plays that from everything I ever read was added to by the skill of the actor - improvisation was key
https://sites.google.com/site/italiancommedia/the-characters
Reading the descriptions we can see the characters of the Cat and Fox were similar to some of the Zanni's in Commedia Dell'Arte. And Pinocchio has traits of both Punchinello and Pierrot.
This discussion of Pinocchio will close down sometime this evening Bellamaria and the less demanding discussion will finish out the year - Holiday Books and Bookstores - http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4867.0
Enjoy your Christmas season - fond memories are built on these...
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It's just amazing what you all made of this remarkable story. Congratulations. It was fun reading your posts. You really did find the moral icon in the book.
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One last comment as far as Commedia Dell'Arte is concerned using masks to put on skits or plays that could be political, made me think of Saturday Night Live. The cast dresses up as a political person and then uses comedy to make their political views to the public. Interesting how the modern world of today uses this technique of Commedia Dell'Arte used as far back as the 1500's.
Barb, take all the naps necessary, and never feel guilty for it. Too many times we do not listen to what our body tells us and it can cause us stress or health issues.
Skateboarding in a building that was a church and still had some look of the church.
Hmmm...it is sad that we are seeing so many vacant churches that used to be filled with worshipping. Not sure how I feel about the stained glass still there for the skaters, but then at least the building is being used for something that people can use for some form of fun and gathering.
Jonathan, it is nice to hear from you and know you enjoyed following the discussion.
Barb, I look forward to the Holiday Books and Bookstores, light, fun, and holiday discussion. Thank you again for the wonderful opportunity to discuss Pinocchio. I do still want to watch the Disney movie some time soon. Can't wait to see how Jiminy Cricket fared in the movie. See you on the flip side!