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Coming soon!
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/Ovid/OVIDbookcoverlarge.jpg)
Metamorphosis. We all know what it is every time we look in the mirror. :) And we are all familiar with Midas Mufflers, and the Midas Touch. We eat cereal with no thought as to where the word originated, and we think of Pluto, Jupiter, Callisto, Saturn, Mercury et al. as only planets, but have you ever wondered where those names all came from, and what they really mean? We know what an echo is, but do we know who she was?
2000 years ago Ovid wrote an epic poem called The Metamorphoses, about change and transformation. He was the favorite poet of the Renaissance, and influenced Chaucer, Shakespeare, Spenser, Marlowe, and Milton.
When did you last read him? Here's your chance! Why not join us in a bold new experiment in the New Year with something old and something new, (for us) : Ovid's Metamorphoses, Book I? It's available free, online, and can be read in 1/2 hour. We'll compare translations and see which we think is best and enjoy talking about the issues it raises. Come join us!
(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free. Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
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Wonderful. This is just what the world needs. Happy New Year.
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Welcome, Jonathan, it's great to see you here. I'm really looking forward to this discussion.
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Count me in!
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Jonathan and Bellamarie! Fabulous! Welcome!
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I'm in!
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Roxania!~ Hooray! Welcome, welcome!
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Count me in too Ginny!
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I think this is a wonderful idea and opportunity! Looking forward to it!
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OK!
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Welcome, welcome, welcome! A triple welcome, Venia, Palmtree and Kidsal (Sally)!
So glad to see you here! Am so looking forward to this and hearing everybody's thoughts.
Welcome, All!
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Yes, Ginny! This is very exciting.
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Will be here, too. I've been missing our classical book discussions which seem to have gone by the wayside.
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Welcome, Halcyon and Frybabe. We certainly have a good bunch here.
Frybabe, as you can see, the classics has awakened.
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Count me in Ginny!
Hello all. I am one of Ginny's Latin 101 students. I am looking forward to reading and discussing Ovid.
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DNix!! How good to see you here, this is a marvelous group already assembled!
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I'm in!
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Oh, good. Siblings are always welcome. ;)
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I'm in. I too am one of Ginny's Latin 101 students. Can't get enough Latin! ;D
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Me, either. :) Welcome, Marsha!
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"count me in" sounds fun and educational, and more latin...what could be better!
Harry10 , one of Ginny's students
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Ginny's 104 class will be studying Ovid this term. Ginny laid out a very eloquent and persuasive case in the assignments area as to why we would do well to join this book club discussion and so I'm in! Looking forward!
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Harry10 and Fran11, so good to see you both here!
This is really going to be something!
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What translation to use—getting the right one for you is important. There are lots of good ones out there, but this is definitely not a one size fits all issue. As I’ve seen in previous classics discussions, what one person likes, another hates. Try to read a bit of whatever you are going to buy to see if the style appeals to you.
Of the three links to free online versions in the heading, I like the first (Kline) the best, and it has lots of links to the many mythical characters, but it's prose. The second, Dryden, is in verse; I find it almost unreadable, but lots of people like his poetic style.
In books, I like Lombardo because he is straightforward and respects the text, but some people find him too slangy.
Anything you find readable would be good. If it's easy to get to a library, you can check out their versions.
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PatH, I've ordered Lombardo and scrolled through Kline which I also like. I wondered if there is a chart or genealogy of the gods? Does anyone know? I think it would be fun to see all the relationships as a visual. It might help us Latin students also!
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There must be one somewhere, and if it's complete, it'll be pretty complicated. Their personal life was kind of a mess. I'll look for one.
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PatH, I've actually found many, some more complete than others. As you said their personal lives were a mess thus I've given their story a name "As the world turns all my bold and beautiful and young and restless children search for tomorrow at the edge of night"
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:) And for those who have the Ovid text, there is a rudimentary one on page 444. Of those you've found, Halcyon, can you put a link to any of them?
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I'm in. One more Latin 103 student.
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I am in.
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Cosmogony, whether scientific or religious, is very hard to think about. Book I of the Metamorphoses immediately calls Genesis to mind. I'd like to join the discussion group, Ginny.
Howard
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Welcome to Vorenus, Mkaren557, and howshap. Wow--so many Latin students. Hope you don't mind talking in english.
You're right about the cosmogony, Howard. It will be an interesting comparison.
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I am in.
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Here's a family tree of Roman gods that seemed relatively clear:
http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
And here's the identical chart with the Greek names:
http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
The same god will appear in many places, mated to a different partner (often a sibling, parent or child). I lost track of how many times Jupiter/Zeus appeared.
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Here's a chart I found with both Greek and Roman names, starting with Chaos, going to the Titans and then to the Olympians.
http://www.usefulcharts.com/greek-mythology-family-tree/
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HALCYON: your name for them definitely should be adopted!
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I'm on board. Bill Hull
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WELCOME, Bill.
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Count me in please, Ginny. It sounds fabulous!
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Count me in. I will try, time permitting.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Chaoshubble.jpg)
Panoramic Hubble Picture Surveys Star Birth, Proto-Planetary Systems in the Great Orion Nebula
Metamorphosis. We all know what it is every time we look in the mirror. :) And we are all familiar with Midas Mufflers, and the Midas Touch. We eat cereal with no thought as to where the word originated, and we think of Pluto, Jupiter, Callisto, Saturn, Mercury et al. as only planets, but have you ever wondered where those names all came from, and what they really mean? We know what an echo is, but do we know who she was?
2000 years ago Ovid wrote an epic poem called The Metamorphoses, about change and transformation. He was the favorite poet of the Renaissance, and influenced Chaucer, Shakespeare, Spenser, Marlowe, and Milton.
When did you last read him? Here's your chance! Why not join us in a bold new experiment in the New Year with something old and something new, (for us) : Ovid's Metamorphoses, Book I? It's available free, online, and can be read in 1/2 hour. We'll compare translations and see which we think is best and enjoy talking about the issues it raises. Come join us!
(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free. Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
Week One: January 21-? Chaos and Order:
Bk I:1-20 The Primal Chaos
Bk I:21-31 Separation of the elements
Bk I:32-51 The earth and sea. The five zones.
Bk I:52-68 The four winds
Bk I:68-88 Humankind
Some things to think about:
1. How is this creation story like and unlike other creation stories?
2. The god that creates the world isn't named, and it's not clear whether mankind was created by a god or the forces of nature. Why do you think it's said this way?
3. What is the shape of the newly created world?
4. Why did Ovid settle on "changes" as the theme of his poem?
5. What do you know about Ovid? What else did he write?
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
[/list]
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Welcome, Hepeskin and Tom! It's really a joy to see all of you here.
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A question-How many days/weeks will the discussion of the Ovid last? Also, I have an interest in a continuing discussion of books centering around the Greco-Roman world. Is there any chance of this? Bill
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Good questions. The book discussions are considerably more free-form than a class, which has to have a schedule. We'll start the actual discussion on the 21st, and go through February. How far will we get in the book? That depends on how fast we go. We'll divide up Book I into a schedule and see how long it takes us, then do as much as we can fit in. If there is enough interest, we could go longer than planned.
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Also, I have an interest in a continuing discussion of books centering around the Greco-Roman world. Is there any chance of this? Bill
We do discuss such books from time to time. We've already read the Iliad and the Odyssey, some selections from Plutarch, and three Greek plays by different authors, centering about a common theme.
In general, choice of books to discuss depends on a combination of what people suggest, what the discussion leaders are willing to lead, and having enough interested people to make for a good discussion.
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Halcyon, "As you said their personal lives were a mess thus I've given their story a name "As the world turns all my bold and beautiful and young and restless children search for tomorrow at the edge of night"
I absolutely LOVE this and might I add my two favorites, Days Of Our Lives, and General Hospital. I'm sure with your creativity you can link them in. :)
WOW! How exciting to see so many of Ginny's Latin students joining us. WELCOME to you all. I may have bitten off a bit more than I can chew, since I know very very little of this genre, and little to no Latin, other than what I have used at Mass from time to time. Such as: Kyrie Eleison, Christe Eleison, Kyrie Eleison (Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy), which just today I find out it is not Latin at all.....but GREEK! Well, now I have learned something new and we have yet to begin this book!
Although during Lenten Season I do recall we use Latin for the Acclamation of Faith: The priest will say "Mysterium fidei!" (The Mystery of Faith!) and we all respond, "Mortem tuam annuntiamus, Domine, et tuam resurrectionem confitemur, donec venias." (We proclaim Your death, O Lord, and confess Your resurrection, until You come.)
I'm very excited to get started!
Ciao for now~ I do know my Italian a bit. ;)
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Latin isn't needed for this. I don't know any either.
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Bellamarie, When I was a girl I spent lots of time at my best friend's house; he had six siblings, I had none. Running in after school we would often find his mom ironing while watching a soap opera. Sometimes she would be crying. Of course that would send us into a fit of the giggles which only ended when she banished us from the house! She was the hardest working woman I ever knew.
This book will be fun.
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Halcyon, My Mom watched soaps her entire life, we too would come in from school, and because she had an injured back which did not allow her much movement, she enjoyed sitting watching her soaps and would shush us if we got too loud to where she could not hear them. I began watching with her as a teen, and have watched Days of Our Lives and GH since. I knew when my Mom was in the hospital and refused to turn on her soaps she was not doing well. It made me sad, because I knew how much enjoyment they brought to her. She died shortly after that, and I keep watching because just the lead in music makes me think of her, and all the Days of Her Life. :'(
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When I was 6, I got Scarlet Fever. this was before antibiotics, so I had to be isolated in a room by myself for weeks (it seemed like weeks, anyway. I had little to do, so I used to watch Soap Operas on the radio (this was before TV). The one that would be perfect for us was called "One Man's Family". All the characters were related, and they were always getting into trouble, and quarrelling with each other. The Greek/Roman gods remind me of that.
I never got straight who was who and their relationship in the soap opera: hopefully I'll do better with the gods. I would like to think the gods are more mature than the soap characters, but unfortunately not.
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I'm thinking about how to get "General Hospital" into our name. Google tells me "hospital" is from the Latin word for hospitable and "general" from the Latin word for "of a group" (check me out, Latin students).
How about: "As the world turns all my bold and beautiful and young and restless children from one mans family search for tomorrow from a generally hospitable place at the edge of night"
NAH. It doesn't have the ring of the original.
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JoanK, maybe not but somehow it works. Haha.
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Soap Operas. Why do they call them "soap?" hahaha I've never watched one, unfortunately, but one of my relatives was actually in one; he was "the doctor" in the long running TV soap The Doctors. He won an Emmy. Here he is with the pipe in his mouth: (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/JamesPritchett.jpg) You can tell this was a long time ago.
He was born in 1922 in Lenoir, NC, and played Dr. Matt Powers, the star of the show. I think he was also in other soaps, too. What I do know about him is kind of a family legend, that during the show if he had to say I'll call Dr. XXX, or Dr. YYY, he'd substitute the names of the physicians in our own family. He'd say "I'll call Dr. McNairy," (my grandfather)...(and also my great aunt) and it was kind of a fun private joke.
Just a little trivia meaning nothing while waiting to win 900 million dollars tonight. :)
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JoanK., I actually like your creation and if you don't mind I'll give it a shot and add my other favorite soap.
"As the world turns, all my bold and beautiful and young and restless children from one man's family search for tomorrow from the halls of General hospital, hoping to come to a peaceful place at the edge of night, all the days of our lives."
As for the gods being more mature, I think not either.
Ginny, To answer you question, they were called "soap" operas because the ads were to sell soap detergent, and dish soap to all the women listening to and watching them all day long. I mean how many of us who did watch were either doing our laundry, ironing, folding clothes, putting them away, or doing dishes as we listened in the background? "Operas" because of all the drama!! Hee hee...
OMG Ginny, I watched The Doctors until it went off the air! I've got my 5 lottery tickets with my fingers crossed, a girl can hope. Good luck!!
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Will you all still love us when you're millionaires?
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Chuckle. I can't believe how ingenious you all are.
Yes, these gods would be right at home in a soap opera. And these stories have lasted for millennia, and been the inspiration for a lot of the great literature of the Western world.
What does that say to you? Will we see why as we read them?
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JoanK., Yes, of course I would stick around if I won. I still will need food for thought, and money won't satisfy my mind the way a good book does. But no fear here, I guess God intends me to live comfortably and humble. I had no luck with the lottery. But on the bright side it is now up to 1.3 Billion. Saw this on Facebook:
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12552869_10153842869785682_4084149268684727945_n.jpg?oh=d1827b0ae08a12b84936df95012110f4&oe=5748671F)
Could you just imagine this!!
Oh PatH., I finally got a chance to read Book 1 and I can say without a doubt these gods would fit right into my soaps.
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Too bad the math is wrong. Everyone in the US would receive about $4.00 each! Hopefully the winner will do good things with the money.
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Indeed. The Facebook poster has decimal point issues.
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Good catch! I didn't take the time to do the math.....sorry.
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When I was a little girl and was home from school sick, I would lie on my mother's bed and listen to Ma Perkins, Our Gal Sunday, Stella Dallas and every evening after Gabriel Heater and World News Tonight, I would listen to One Man's Family. I loved those stories. Somehow the magic for me was lost when they left the radio and came on TV.
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Oh I love old time radio, I listen to it all the time when commuting, there's a channel on Sirius which plays the shows all day long. I love the old Sherlock Holmes with Basil Rathbone from the war years which have all the patriotic messages and commercials in them, they were SO clever. Harry Bartel. Commercials for Petri wine, it's like a piece of living history. Johnny Dollar, Suspense, wonderful stuff.
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Hello Ginny,
Hope it's not too late to be included in the discussion. This sounds very interesting and I will try to do as much as I can, even if I just peek in everyday. :)
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Plenty of time collierose, the discussion starts the 21st. Welcome. I think you'll enjoy it.
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Thanks PatH. I think I will too.
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Thank you for the charts--very helpful. It does get to be a mess, doesn't it? What with Minerva branching out from Jupiter with no mom, and Jupiter getting around all over the place. Had to google Juventia--apparently a goddess of youth, the equivalent of Hebe. Surprisingly enough, when I googled her, several Twitter names came up, so she is apparently alive and well (and presumably young) on the internet.
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Goddesses on the internet. who knew?
But there is a very popular children's book author (Percy Jackson, I think?) who writes stories about the Greek and Roman gods. So my grandchildren will grow up knowing this heritage.
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JoanK, Percy Jackson is the protagonist in the series written by Rick Riodan. He also wrote other Greek and Roman god/demigod books.
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Thanks, FRYBABE. Are the books good?
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Well, I don't know, but they sure get a workout at the library, and they made two movies two movies from the books.
Interesting to note that Riodan started writing children's books when he wrote some as bedtime stories for his eldest son, Haley, who had been diagnosed ADHD and Dyslexic. I don't see any recent info about Haley, but he started college in Boston several years ago and has written at least one short story that is incorporated into one of Rick Roidan's books. The story, "Son of Magic", has gotten good reviews.
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If you remember that Riordan's books are aimed at middle school to high school readers, with suitable humor, they are quite good. I've read most of the Percy Jackson series. If you subtract out the adaptations the gods had to make to modern life (Mount Olympus now hovers invisibly over the Empire State Building, and you get there by knowing how to gimmick the elevator to go to the 600th floor) the mythology is pretty accurate.
It's interesting that Haley is ADHD and Dyslexic. Many of the main characters in the books are too. This is because they're demigods, the offspring of gods or goddesses and mortals, and their brains are hard-wired for Ancient Greek and their perceptions are unusual. It gets them into a lot of trouble in school. They tend to have the skills of the immortal parent; Percy Jackson, son of Poseidon/Neptune, can't be drowned and can talk to horses.
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well its great that the old myths are still going strong I suppose, The Heroes got me permanently hooked,... but how important is it all really,.... we have other myths now or might invent them ......
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I think we're going to find out that it is important. These myths have survived for valid reasons.
That will be a good thing to chew over when we get going.
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I agree PatH., myths have survived over the centuries and I believe it's because they are based on political, moral, canon and religious beliefs, which we still debate today.
In Rome's earliest period, history and myth have a mutual and complementary relationship.[7] As T.P. Wiseman notes:
The Roman stories still matter, as they mattered to Dante in 1300 and Shakespeare in 1600 and the founding fathers of the United States in 1776. What does it take to be a free citizen? Can a superpower still be a republic? How does well-meaning authority turn into murderous tyranny?[6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_mythology
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Oh well done, Bellamarie, you picked a winner in T.P. Wiseman. Do you know who he was? He was J.K. Rowling's classics professor at Exeter and a lot of people say he was the model for Dumbledore in her Harry Potter series. (He says he can't see it). Choosing him shows good instincts. :) He's my favorite classicist other than Mary Beard.
Welcome, welcome, ALL! Super question, Dana, how provocative, love it. What a statement, Howard, " Cosmogony, whether scientific or religious, is very hard to think about..." we are going to want to hear more about cosmogony. A lot more.
For those of you who have not been in our book club discussions before, a warm and hearty welcome! We are so looking forward to hearing your views about this puzzling poem, and discussing ideas with you.
Here's how it works: We'll take Book I in small increments and we'll put up the section we want to concentrate on for the week in the heading. And that's what we'll cover in that week. So we won't be discussing Phaethon or Arachne in week one.
We've got a LOT to discuss and focus on the first week and we'll list as many interesting avenues or opportunities for your thoughts in the heading (the top of the page where the illustration is) that pertain TO that reading we can think of.... and you can feel free to: give your opinions, or add your own idea of what would be interesting to talk about.
So feel free to talk to each other (please, if you don't, there will BE no "discussion") and enjoy bringing things here you think we would love to see and talk about.
We don't seek consensus or agreement, you are entitled to whatever opinion you have, and here's a secret: scholars are sharply divided over what the Metamorphoses really intends, so there IS no one answer. But there are a lot of questions. This is not a class, but we will bring to the table a lot of what is currently thought and you can see if it informs your view or if you prefer something else you read.
Oh, in choosing links to present here, please, given the state of the Internet, try not to quote from places of such dubious origin as: IamthesonoftheSungod.com and our info might be a lot more useful in the long run. :)
That's pretty much it! PatH and I will put up a section of the piece and some (what we hope) are provocative questions to start us off Thursday and we hope you will favor us with your thoughts.
Everyone is welcome!
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We don't seek consensus or agreement, you are entitled to whatever opinion you have, and here's a secret: scholars are sharply divided over what the Metamorphoses really intends, so there IS no one answer.
I like that, Ginny; we can all have our creative notions, and we're all of us right.
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Is there room for one more?
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Always room for one more. Lots of space on the internet.
Welcome, Kenneth.
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Oh dear Ginny, I wish I could resoundedly say I knew who T.P. Wiseman was, and that was the reason I chose that particular quote, but in all honesty, I barely knew who Ovid was before this book was chosen for discussion. Glad to hear you know of him and like him. I am like a lost sheep, or shall I say lost star, with mythology, but if you lead me I will follow......
Welcome Kenneth, we are happy to have you and all the newbies to our discussion group. The more the merrier! Like the sky we have plenty of room for more stars to shine.
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I would like to join too if not too late.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/chaos1.jpg)
"Hand of God" Spotted by NASA Space Telescope
Metamorphosis. We all know what it is every time we look in the mirror. :) And we are all familiar with Midas Mufflers, and the Midas Touch. We eat cereal with no thought as to where the word originated, and we think of Pluto, Jupiter, Callisto, Saturn, Mercury et al. as only planets, but have you ever wondered where those names all came from, and what they really mean? We know what an echo is, but do we know who she was?
2000 years ago Ovid wrote an epic poem called The Metamorphoses, about change and transformation. He was the favorite poet of the Renaissance, and influenced Chaucer, Shakespeare, Spenser, Marlowe, and Milton.
When did you last read him? Here's your chance! Why not join us in a bold new experiment in the New Year with something old and something new, (for us) : Ovid's Metamorphoses, Book I? It's available free, online, and can be read in 1/2 hour. We'll compare translations and see which we think is best and enjoy talking about the issues it raises. Come join us!
(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free. Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
Week One: January 21-? Chaos and Order:
Bk I:1-20 The Primal Chaos
Bk I:21-31 Separation of the elements
Bk I:32-51 The earth and sea. The five zones.
Bk I:52-68 The four winds
Bk I:68-88 Humankind
What do you think about: :
1. How is this creation story like and unlike other creation stories?
2. The god that creates the world isn't named, and it's not clear whether mankind was created by a god or the forces of nature. Why do you think it's said this way?
3. What is the shape of the newly created world?
4. Why did Ovid settle on "changes" as the theme of his poem?
5. What do you know about Ovid? What else did he write?
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
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The more the merrier, chase31. You've got plenty of time to read the first bit, which is short, though filled with possibilities.
Welcome.
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I am like a lost sheep, or shall I say lost star, with mythology, but if you lead me I will follow......
That brings up something important. All the mythical characters can be very intimidating if you try to meet them all at once. But you don't have to. They'll come on the stage gradually, so you can look each one up when he/she/it appears.
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Please count me in. I'm one of Ginny's Latin 101 students.
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Great, IWILL. Welcome.
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Welcome, everyone, at last it’s time to start. There are all sorts of places we could begin. One is our first reaction to the poem itself: What did you think of the first bit? Do you like the poem? Is it effective?
Ovid opens with a bang. In four lines, he sets out his game plan, his theme, the approach he is going to take.
Where did he get his ideas? How does he fit into his time? What is he trying to achieve?
There are some questions in the heading, but they’re just starting points. Anything you want to say is good.
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Good morning!
My first thoughts were that the creation story was very similar (perhaps not as detailed) as the Genesis story in the bible. Ovid got his ideas from earlier works which got me to asking just what were the earliest creation myths. Wikipedia has a list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_creation_myths As best as I can tell, the first written creation myth found in the region was the Sumerian, Enuma Elish, fragments of which you can read here. http://www.ancient-origins.net/human-origins-folklore/origins-human-beings-according-ancient-sumerian-texts-0065
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I love the pix at the top of the page, but maybe this one would fit better for the beginning of the story.
http://www.space.com/24225-hand-of-god-photo-nasa-telescope.html
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So in the Sumerian myth, the gods create mankind in order to get out of doing their own work.
I was trying for an astronomical picture that didn't look like anything, the better to represent chaos, not realizing that the hand of god was waiting for me.
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I am reading the Stanley Lombardo translation. What a wonderful “singing” translation of the invocation to this work (lines 1-4):
My mind now turns to stories of bodies changed
Into new forms. O Gods, inspire my beginnings
(For you changed them too) and spin a poem that extends
From the world’s first origins down to my own time.
Ovid immediately gives us the theme of his work: bodies changed into new forms. This is how the other great epic poets started their poems – Homer’s Iliad (anger) and Odyssey (the man), Vergil’s Aeneid (arms and the man). I do not know much about Ovid, but he seems to have no hesitancy placing himself in the company of Homer and Vergil by writing in dactylic hexameter and stating his theme in the first line. But he immediately signals he will outdo them by invoking, not merely the muse, but all the gods! He is an audacious fellow; he will surpass Homer (who sang merely of a war and a man) and Vergil (who sang merely of a war and a city’s founding). Ovid will spin a poem “that extends from the world’s first origins down to [his] own time.” A bold start!
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I read he was a famous writer of love poems before this. I think that one of his goals was to prove himself the equal of Virgil, particularly, but also of Homer. He certainly does not "beat around the bush" in defining the scope of his work in the first four lines.
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Oh how exciting to see so many of you here and what a super start and wonderful observations.
I have wondered that a long time, Frybabe, the origin of these myths, timeline wise. How far back they go.
The photo is a copyright issue and I do see on the page the names of the people (something, /Miller) who are responsible for it. Let's see if we can use it with permission.
But was it a god who did Ovid's creation? What does YOUR translation say?
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I am reading More's version. In #21 It says God (or kindly nature) ended the strife (chaos?). I
n #32 it goes on to say he reduced all to the elements and on to creation. I found it interesting he formed it into a globe. So it was a common knowledge among the educated in ancient times that the earth was round and not flat. I remember reading somewhere that the Greeks knew this and had calculated earths circumference very closely to what is now known.
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We sure picked a great time to talk about this, didn't we? There's a new planet in our solar system just discovered and it's a BIG one. The planets are all going to line up in a row for a month! Astronomers must be having a field day! It's been discovered that the old fairy tales in some cases are more than 4,000 years old. Nothing new under the sun?
I loved your take on the prologue, DNix. Isn't it stunning? Such good points! I do not know much about Ovid, but he seems to have no hesitancy placing himself in the company of Homer and Vergil by writing in dactylic hexameter and stating his theme in the first line. But he immediately signals he will outdo them by invoking, not merely the muse, but all the gods!
Super point. And you AND Karen immediately see him challenging the old Epic poetry tradition with something transformed.
But how IS it transformed? What IS the traditional Epic poem of Homer and Vergil?
The Romans got their models from the Greeks. In terms of cosmogony (the branch of science that deals with the origin of the universe, especially the solar system. A theory regarding the origin of the universe, especially the solar system), which Howard was talking about way back there, Ovid had plenty of predecessors as Frybabe has shown and in the Greeks themselves whom he would have known and studied.
So exactly how is he different? How is HIS creation different and for what purpose do you think he wrote it? Do any of the Traditional Epics of Homer, or Vergil start with the creation of the world?
Karen said I read he was a famous writer of love poems before this. Thank you for bringing that to the table, too. We will be so enriched by what you all can find and bring. He said it was a "carmen," (poem, song) and an "error" which resulted in his exile in 8 A.D. But nobody knows which poem or what error. They can only guess.
What do you all think of his skill in writing this first creation story? Did you also have the same reaction that DNix and Karen did?
Meanwhile for those of you who love research, it would be so interesting if we knew what his Greek predecessors had said about the creation of the world so we could compare it.
Here they are: What for instance did Homer, Hesiod, the Platonic tradition, Aristotle, the Stoics, Leucippus, Democritus. Epicurus's Nature of the World, and Lucretius who wrote 50 years before Ovid say? How are they different?
What is atomistic cosmogony? How was Virgil's version different?
If you find out about one, let us know, so we can compare them?
Meanwhile I am fascinated by your reaction to this first bit! And it's a real Pandora's Box of delights and discovery. What do the rest of you think?
Super start!
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Chase, what a wonderful point: I found it interesting he formed it into a globe. So it was a common knowledge among the educated in ancient times that the earth was round and not flat. I remember reading somewhere that the Greeks knew this and had calculated earths circumference very closely to what now know.
Now there is a point I completely missed! When was the earth known to be round and why did that thinking change and when?
It's a good thing we've got PatH here because I honestly don't know one thing about scientific theory and I hope to learn a LOT.
And the More translation has a "God or kindly nature" doing the actual creation? And he is spelling it with a capital G?
What have the rest of you got in your translations?
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When my Lombardo edition came, it turned out to be abridged, so I also grabbed another one--this one by Charles Martin. DNix quoted the Lombardo translation above, but in the Martin one, it's a bit switched around:
My mind leads me to speak now of forms changed
into new bodies; O gods above, inspire
this undertaking (which you've changed as well)
and guide my poem in its epic sweep
from the world's beginning to the present day.
I picked up on the globe reference, too, and that was one of the things I wanted to ask about--it's on line 44 of my translation, and I was wondering whether the same word was used in all of them. Ovid also seems to know about global climate zones, since he mentions TWO polar zones, two temperate zones and one hot equatorial zone. So while in many ways it's similar to Genesis and other creation myths, he seems to have a more accurate notion of what the world is like.
Out of curiosity, I looked up Ovid's dates--43 BCE to 17 CE. I suppose he could have been familiar with Lucretius, whose dates were 99-44 BCE, and whose De rerum natura eerily prefigures a lot of modern scientific knowledge. The idea of a universe composed of atoms goes as far back as Democritus in the 5th century BCE--I think Leucippus was Democritus's mentor--and Lucretius certainly deals not only with atoms, but hypothesizes about genetics. So the idea of "changes" can embrace everything from the geological changes of the creation, to evolution, to a naiad turning into a tree to get away from that well-known menace, Apollo.
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Found you - hooray - never saw a link and knew the discussion was to start today - great - need to read a bit - looking forward to this...
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I'm going to be all boring and pedantic here, so those of us who aren't doing Latin might want to skip this.
It bothered me that Lombardo said, "My mind now turns to stories of bodies changed/Into new forms" and Martin said, "My mind leads me to speak now of forms changed into new bodies." And Ginny said, "Always parse!" Somebody messed up. Either forms were changing into bodies, and solidifying and becoming more concrete, as the world solidifies from chaos, or bodies were assuming new forms--like naiads turning into trees. It could go either way.
What Ovid said was:
In nova fert animus mutatas dicere formas
corpora;
So if I've got this right, it's:
[My] mind brings [me] to speak about--fert animus dicere
mutatas formas-- forms changed
in nova corpora- into new bodies.
But since both "formas" and "corpora" are accusative plural, I suppose it could go either way. And I like the sense of Lombardo's better, even though he may have cheated just a bit.
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It's a good thing we're reading so many different translations, because different ones emphasize, or keep in, or leave out different things. I think it's a stunning touch that Ovid's work on transformations is itself a transformation, and that's left out of Kline, and more or less clear in the other ones.
Same with the round earth. It's not as clear in some versions, and you have to read very carefully trying to figure out if he's really saying a globe, or just a circle.
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Right off the bat as the saying goes it hit me that the author and Ovid's known world thought, order was preferable to chaos. How many centuries had to pass before Chaos was appreciated and math formulas were built to understand and utilize chaos....
"a greater order of nature, since he split off the earth from the sky, and the sea from the land, and divided the transparent heavens from the dense air" versus The Greek word "chaos", a neuter noun, means "yawning" or "gap", with no understanding about anything located on either side of this chasm. Ovid suggesting, "chaos: a raw confused mass, nothing but inert matter, badly combined discordant atoms of things, confused in the one place."
Just that thought alone there could be hours of conversation how that kind of thinking affected what we valued and the progression of philosophy, theology, rules of justice, law and order, to the running of a household. Right versus wrong, all based on if something smacks of order or of chaos and our lack of understanding chaos as a positive force and its role. Amazing...
Roxzania you posted while I was writing - your pointing out the changeability of 'forms changed - into new bodies' I am thinking you are also suggesting this could mean, 'new bodies - changed into forms' - if so that suggests that Chaos is equal to Order therefore as Chaos can organize to Order so too Order can organize to Chaos ??!!?? Not sure if the analogy works but that is how I am seeing it.
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PatH: While I was digging around in the Latin, I looked. He says "orbis," so globe it is.
BarbStAubrey: Yes, I guess one could either be coming or going, as it were. But there is also the element that, if the body takes a new form, it somehow retains its own essence--so the naiad is still herself, even if she happens to be a tree at the moment.
This is hard. I feel like a medieval scholastic, worrying about angels and pinheads.
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I am reading A. S. Kline's version.
Yes, it was Eratosthenes of Cyrene that did an experiment. He was a scientist in Alexandria at the time. He measured the length of the shadow cast by a vertical stick during the solstice at noon, so he could figure out what angle the Sun made with the vertical direction at Alexandria.
http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/09/21/who-discovered-the-earth-is-ro/
Frybabe, I love the picture at Space.com. That would be a great picture at the top for this.
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Roxania, it's not going to stay this hard. This stage-setting is pretty dense, but after a bit the angels will be sorted out on their pinheads, and things will get more into straightforward narrative. I appreciate your consulting the Latin.
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What I am getting from what you Roxania shared and collaborated with by collierose, that angles or pinheads the concept that a god created order - later the many gods were encouraged to be one God - says that God not only stands for Order but the value we put on God is the value we put on Order and sometime in the 3rd or 4th Century when Satan was made a part of the Christian religion this Satan was a representation for Chaos.
Knowing today the value of Chaos that we have barely touched its benefits suggests to me much about human history and our fears. It never occurred to me that this separation was instilled in our thinking this early - yes, I saw the rise of Christianity affecting a duality of thinking that is profound but I am thinking now how we have avoided and how little I know of the relationships within Eastern thinking or even how I understood and interpreted Hinduism and other Eastern thought that have a Goddess of Chaos - seems to me there is a God of Chaos in the old Norse religion.
I am seeing a less judgmental view of the world from this new to me understanding of an early text. I can see how war is chaos that leads to a new order - if chaos and order are interchangeable than are each within each other or is it a straight line that one leads to the other which continues as the circle that Pat spoke of - and then what is it that remains of war and peace within that circular system because as Roxania brings to our attention, "the body takes a new form, it somehow retains its own essence."
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And there is the whole idea of chaos in art and aesthetics, especially in tragedy--that the tragedy is a violation of order, an introduction of chaos into society, so there is always an authority figure who comes in at the end to restore order--like Fortinbras at the end of Hamlet.
Loki is usually considered the Norse god of chaos and disorder and mischief.
In other news, fifty years after first reading him, I still can't whip up a lot of enthusiasm for Dryden:
Of bodies chang'd to various forms, I sing:
Ye Gods, from whom these miracles did spring,
Inspire my numbers with coelestial heat;
'Till I my long laborious work compleat:
And add perpetual tenour to my rhimes,
Deduc'd from Nature's birth, to Caesar's times.
PatH, I wish we had buttons under every post to indicate "like" or "agree," as they have in the wonderful knitting website, Ravelry.
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He adds an elaborate style from his day, not particularly like the original, and in the process fuzzes the meaning and leaves things out.
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Thanks - this dichotomy between chaos and order has me by the tail - I had not associated the figures in art that bring about 'and they lived happily ever after' as the 'god' ;) of our desire, order - I'm still caught up in the war and peace theme -
Thinking or just the concept of cruelty that we associate with warlike behavior - is cruelty a form of chaos - is that why we associate cruelty with anger and the behaviors we prefer to see removed - is it really the chaos that someone acting cruelly represents - is it our fear of not knowing how to respond logically to someone who behaves with cruelty - so many questions - and then how often we see folks that believe in order they utilize fear and cruelty and shame and, and, and, to restore order - the gun is a symbol for creating with chaos the desired order - oh my and that leads to the word power - power in order but also power in chaos - back to a single focus away from duality - the ultimate power figure for many of us is God - is this adding up that God is the control button for both order and chaos -
So much to re-read and now maybe I will read a bit more about Hinduism with new eyes although, I think I may have a better chance of entering this line of thinking with a re-read of what I have in my library relating to Heidentum, the old German practices before Christianity that share similar practices and beliefs to Hedendom in Scandinavia. It certainly puts into focus the concept of reading the writings of Native American tribal authors who are faithful to their so called wheel of time so that a story can contain generations of the deceased as well and children not yet born as if they are all currently present in the story.
Woohw what a ride and this is only the first few stanzas of the poem.
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Ok help - those of you who are reading the translation from another author please can you share if there is another reading for this line - it is confusing me...
" Either the creator god, source of a better world, seeded it from the divine, or the newborn earth just drawn from the highest heavens still contained fragments related to the skies, so that Prometheus, blending them with streams of rain, moulded them into an image of the all-controlling gods"
I think it is saying the creator seeded the world from the divine
or
the earth that would be part of the world was from the highest heavens which I am assuming he means the heavens where the gods or a god abides - and this earth which I am assuming means the soil contains fragments related to the skies - which for me makes sense if the earth is as a result of the chaos that formed the universe than particles of the matter from the beginning would be related to the particles of matter created at the same time and still are in what we call the skies.
Prometheus, who is only a second order of the Greek gods blends the earth, containing the fragments from the formation of the universe, with rain - with Zeus since, Zeus is lord of the sky, and the rain - does that mean the gods are within these elements so that Prometheus blends Zeus with Gaea, mother earth, universal mother who gave birth to both the first race of gods and the first humans - I am not clear on how these gods represent or are within these aspects of our universe.
It sounds to me like he is not saying there are two separate stories but rather, the story is the same except the second version is more drawn out explaining the process using the power of gods to further understand the steps in the process.
Or is there something completely different being explained that the other translations may shed some light.
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My thoughts are all over the place, though not very organized. I am reading Lombardo. I just love this line "Then the god who had sorted out this cosmic heap, whoever it was...." (lines 32,33) Polytheism, monotheism, Greek and Roman philosophers, mathematicians, astronomers...Ovid was exposed to it all. Perhaps he simply didn't know or realized that theories were ever changing and no one would ever know for sure.
According to Professor of Astronomy Alex Filippenko/UC Berkeley the universe is approximately 13.7 billion years old. For me that's hard to fathom. Are there other universes? Do we keep destroying ourselves and starting over? How to explain the pyramids and Stonehenge? Are extraterrestrials involved?
And then there is Stephen Hawking, the big bang theory and the ultimate question, can something be made out of nothing? Interesting Hawking quote 'The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired."
Roxania wrote "But since both "formas" and "corpora" are accusative plural, I suppose it could go either way."
I looked up both words in Cassel's Latin Dictionary and think, if broadly interpreted, they can be interchanged. Maybe Ginny knows.
Barb said "The Greek word "chaos", a neuter noun, means "yawning" or "gap", with no understanding about anything located on either side of this chasm." Several Native American creation stories tell of a young woman falling or being pushed into a black hole, perhaps chaos. http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/TheCreationStory-Iroquois.html
Fascinating.
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Some time ago we bought a Great Courses lecture on Chaos. The physics professor also said that the Greek meaning of chaos is not disorder but chasm or the abyss. The course went into fractals quite heavily. He went into the origin of "does a butterfly flapping it's wings effect the weather in China?". He explained this came from a professor of meteorology at MIT. And that weather will develop patterns.
It seems that in the entire Chaos Theory patterns will emerge in everything if given enough time and numbers. Everything from insect populations, physical features on maps, heart rhythms, to the numbers of scales on pineapples. It seems to be endless.
I think I am rambling here,LOL.
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What is atomistic cosmogony?
Ginny
Atomistic theory appears to have developed in the 4th century BC in India by the Jains, and appeared in the 5th century BC in Greece. Atomists theorized that there were only two fundamental principles: atoms and void.
I had always thought Aristotle more or less came up with the idea of atoms. But no, big surprise to me, he was opposed to the idea.Aristotle didn't believe in the possiblility of a void. He followed the elemental route, earth, wind, fire, and water. From Ovid's description, Prometheus must have been an elemental.
Cosmogony is theoritical model that is concerned with how something (can apply to other things besides the universe) comes into existance, the source of something's origins. This is a term I had not before run across. It is not to be confused with cosmology (the study of the state of the universe now).
So, I suppose that means that atomistic cosmogony is a theory that the original source of all things comes from atoms and voids. But is that outdated now that we can smash atoms and come up with even tinier bits, like quarks, neutrinos, bosons, and all the other funny little quantum creatures we hear about today?
Not at all Chase31. You never know what will come out of ones' musings and ramblings. This all just goes to show that we are still struggling with these questions of origin today. I didn't know the Greek meaning of chaos before today.
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Here is part of the oldest (Sumarian) theory of Creation from the link posted by FRYBABE above:
"When in the height heaven was not named,
And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name,
And the primeval Apsu, who begat them,
And chaos, Tiamut, the mother of them both
Their waters were mingled together,
And no field was formed, no marsh was to be seen;
When of the gods none had been called into being,
And none bore a name, and no destinies were ordained;
Then were created the gods in the midst of heaven,
Lahmu and Lahamu were called into being..."
I love the idea that the gods had to be created first.
I'm also fascinated by the classification of creation myths, given in the same site. Greek cosmological myths are listed twice: once in creation from chaos, and once in creation by gods.
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JoanK, But who created Lahmu and Lahamu? It could go on and on...like looking at an image of a person holding on to the same image you are looking at.
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I noticed that! :'(
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JoanK are these two separate gods doing the same job of bringing into existence both heaven and earth?
And the primeval Apsu, who begat them,
And chaos, Tiamut, the mother of them both
It sounds like Apsu begat heaven and earth but Tiamut as Chaos mothers both - does that mean to beget does not mean you are the mother - that to mother is one process that excludes begetting while begetting does not automatically assume mothering????
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Only just went back and saw this from Ginny - Here they are: What for instance did Homer, Hesiod, the Platonic tradition, Aristotle, the Stoics, Leucippus, Democritus. Epicurus's Nature of the World, and Lucretius who wrote 50 years before Ovid say?
Fhew that is 9 possibilities -
Found for Aristotle - a synopsis that is used to contradict for a one God viewpoint from the arguments of Kant and Cousin. I have isolated out the statements that offer the views by Aristotle
Aristotle was a monotheist, but he did not understand the dependence of the universe upon the free-will of its Creator and advocated eternal motion.
- Before a body can be changed, it must exist. But it cannot come into existence except in virtue of a change, and this change supposes another change, and so on to infinity in the past. Consequently matter has been changing from eternity.
- Where time is, motion is. But time had no beginning; for every moment of time is the end of past and the beginning of future time. Consequently there was no first moment. Movement is not, he states, the result of the influence of one body on another
- The origin of all motion is ultimately due to God, the first absolutely unchangeable cause. But the first absolutely unchangeable cause cannot produce motion except from eternity to eternity: for otherwise He would undergo change Himself. It is therefore impossible that motion if existent should ever have had a commencement.
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Hesiod gives all the credit to a progression of gods. Although movement is not mentioned for Hesiod it is an orderly birth progression of gods who make up the universe.
First Chaos came to be. Chaos meaning the lack of order - or, in other words - nothing was there yet.
Next, came Gaia (Earth), and with Earth came all the mountains and valleys and stuff. No mention what caused this sudden appearance.
Next came Tartarus, a humungous pit inside Earth.
The next thing "created" is Eros, the personification of love. In Classical myth, Eros is the son of Aphrodite -
Next comes Erebus,the (male) personification of the darkness of the Underworld.
Then Nyx, the (female) personification of night.
Nyx and Erebus find themselves (mostly) alone in the dark together . . . and well . . . then there started a whole new era of Creation. Their first children were Aether (personification of the Upper Air, think atmosphere) and Hemera (the personification of day).
Then Gaia managed to give birth to Pontus (the Sea) and Uranus (not the planet - it means, essentially, Heaven) to cover her completely.
Then Gaia and Uranus beget the first real Gods. The Titans, 12 or 14 of them, and they all married to each other and had lots of kids, and Cronos and Rhea (the youngest boy and girl) beget the Olympian Gods, Zeus, Hera and Hades.
I think this is the viewpoint that troubles my understanding if the gods are as emblems or champions of or are the gods part of, with the name if the god interchangeable, the same, not similar, of that which the god is credited with bringing into existence.
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Whew. I am experiencing CHAOS right now. That is a lot to absorb without a background in mythology or philosophy. But I am sitting back for the moment and listening, thinking, and learning.
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:) Wow! I'd say that was quite a beginning and I've loved every single point.. Each voice adds SO much to the whole. Thank you all for sharing your marvelous ideas!
Welcome, Barbara. I find your contemplation of the nature of Chaos very on point. What chaos IS and/or what it may have symbolized might be important (or might not) to our own understanding of the story unfolding. We like answers neatly tied up. We may not get them with Ovid. He's been analyzed right down to the number of Spondees and Dactyls he used, by scholars for 2000 years and nobody agrees on what he's doing and/or why he's doing it. It will be for you each to decide. For yourselves. I am loving the comments made here.
Ovid would have been influenced by Greek thought. I enjoyed that list Barbara did of some of the Greek thought about the origin of the universe. How complicated this is! It's felt that, speaking loosely, the Greek natural philosophers had three main models for their ideas of the birth of the cosmos: some represented it as a living organism, some as an artifact created by a divine being, and others in terms of a political or social entity. The universe seemed to be a product of design, and for most Greek thinkers it was designed for man's benefit.
Here's a very telling quote by an Ovid scholar:
Ovid knew well the atomistic cosmogony of Virgil, but he takes a different approach. He also knew the poetry of Lucretius and, before him, of Homer and Hesiod, and was familiar with the beliefs of both the Epicurean and the Stoic philosophical schools. What he seems to have done is to devise a version that would touch on as many forms of tradition as possible. Thus, he opens with the Homeric triad of sea, earth, and sky and then casts back to the original chaos, combining the idea of Hesoidic void with Lucretian space--and in it a raw mass or heap of conflicting seeds of things."---- Elaine Fantham
That's a lot for 88 lines. :) Is Ovid's description of the creation of the universe one you could espouse in 2016? Why or why not?
Why would making order out of chaos be important to Ovid one wonders?
And why the heroic Epic poem form? A traditional heroic Epic, besides being written in Dactylic Hexameter ( the meter or rhythm of this poem) was unified by a single hero or people whose adventures it followed. Like DNix said, Vergil and Aeneas. Homer and Odysseus or Ulysses in the Odyssey. Homer and Achilles in the Iliad.
Where's our hero here?
More...
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Roxania, " When my Lombardo edition came, it turned out to be abridged." Really? I have the Lombardo and have anxiously scanned it for this information. Where do you see it?
I'm glad you got the Martin, I've not heard of him, I love to see the variations in the translators! Does anybody have Fagles?
Who else have you found? I am interested in that Dryden. It's pentameter but it seems to rhyme in couplets. I wonder if he considered the Metamorphoses an Elegaic poem in couplets. Is there anything about his translation which might give us a clue? An Introduction? A prologue?
Lucretius, whose dates were 99-44 BCE, and whose De rerum natura eerily prefigures a lot of modern scientific knowledge. The idea of a universe composed of atoms goes as far back as Democritus in the 5th century BCE--I think Leucippus was Democritus's mentor--and Lucretius certainly deals not only with atoms, but hypothesizes about genetics. So the idea of "changes" can embrace everything from the geological changes of the creation, to evolution, to a naiad turning into a tree to get away from that well-known menace, Apollo.
Is that not amazing? Did you all know that? ATOMS!
In nova fert animus mutatas dicere formas
corpora;
So if I've got this right, it's:
[My] mind brings [me] to speak about--fert animus dicere
mutatas formas-- forms changed
in nova corpora- into new bodies.
But since both "formas" and "corpora" are accusative plural, I suppose it could go either way. And I like the sense of Lombardo's better, even though he may have cheated just a bit.
That's very fine work! Literally it's "forms changed into new bodies." Many translators, however, have translated it as "bodies changed to different forms." Ovid seems to be more interested in forms changing into bodies than the reverse however. Metamorphosis has been around a long time. Originally it helped people to grasp and come to terms with the universe they inhabited. Like claiming that human spirits resided in trees, birds, animals and so on. Was this so strange?
Today do we not personify non human things? Have you ever patted the dashboard of the car when it starts? hahahaa I bet you can think of a million other examples.
It's a good thing we're reading so many different translations, because different ones emphasize, or keep in, or leave out different things. I think it's a stunning touch that Ovid's work on transformations is itself a transformation, and that's left out of Kline, and more or less clear in the other ones.
Wonderful point, PatH! And it might be transforming us, too. Karen says she already is experiencing chaos! hahah Loved that.
Right off the bat as the saying goes it hit me that the author and Ovid's known world thought, order was preferable to chaos
What do we know of Ovid's background which would suggest why?
. Right versus wrong, all based on if something smacks of order or of chaos and our lack of understanding chaos as a positive force and its role. Amazing...
It is, and so is this discussion.
Yes, it was Eratosthenes of Cyrene that did an experiment. He was a scientist in Alexandria at the time. He measured the length of the shadow cast by a vertical stick during the solstice at noon, so he could figure out what angle the Sun made with the vertical direction at Alexandria.
Thank you Collierose and Chase. I know absolutely nothing of these things and am astounded!
" Either the creator god, source of a better world, seeded it from the divine, or the newborn earth just drawn from the highest heavens still contained fragments related to the skies, so that Prometheus, blending them with streams of rain, moulded them into an image of the all-controlling gods"
What does this say? Who created man, Prometheus or the Creator? And what or who is Prometheus?
Then the god who had sorted out this cosmic heap, whoever it was...." (lines 32,33) Polytheism, monotheism, Greek and Roman philosophers, mathematicians, astronomers...Ovid was exposed to it all
Super point!
It seems that in the entire Chaos Theory patterns will emerge in everything if given enough time and numbers. Everything from insect populations, physical features on maps, heart rhythms, to the numbers of scales on pineapples. It seems to be endless.
Do you think that Ovid is espousing Chaos Theory from what you have read so far? Remember there ARE no "right" answers, just what you think.
Cosmogony is theoretical model that is concerned with how something (can apply to other things besides the universe) comes into existence, the source of something's origins. This is a term I had not before run across. It is not to be confused with cosmology (the study of the state of the universe now).
Me either, Frybabe. I've already learned a lot. It's a good day when you can learn something new. Oh, and we've got your Hand of God in the heading! Thanks for suggesting it!
Halcyon, It could go on and on...like looking at an image of a person holding on to the same image you are looking at. Gee that's good. Does that pertain to Ovid's creation story here, too?
Fascinating. Isn't it? What surprises you all the most so far?
Joan K, thank you for quoting that. I thought the same thing as Halcyon: who created them? I wonder if the gods are created first what that means to the society they rule? Will they, in that culture, take a leading role? I truly had no idea there were so MANY different creation stories.
So here we are at the end of the first day, what about the poem surprised YOU the most so far? OR, if nothing surprised you, what's your opinion of what you've read so far? Did any particular line or description strike you?
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/chaos1.jpg)
"Hand of God" Spotted by NASA Space Telescope
Metamorphosis. We all know what it is every time we look in the mirror. :) And we are all familiar with Midas Mufflers, and the Midas Touch. We eat cereal with no thought as to where the word originated, and we think of Pluto, Jupiter, Callisto, Saturn, Mercury et al. as only planets, but have you ever wondered where those names all came from, and what they really mean? We know what an echo is, but do we know who she was?
2000 years ago Ovid wrote an epic poem called The Metamorphoses, about change and transformation. He was the favorite poet of the Renaissance, and influenced Chaucer, Shakespeare, Spenser, Marlowe, and Milton.
When did you last read him? Here's your chance! Why not join us in a bold new experiment in the New Year with something old and something new, (for us) : Ovid's Metamorphoses, Book I? It's available free, online, and can be read in 1/2 hour. We'll compare translations and see which we think is best and enjoy talking about the issues it raises. Come join us!
(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free. Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
Week One: January 21-? Chaos and Order:
Bk I:1-20 The Primal Chaos
Bk I:21-31 Separation of the elements
Bk I:32-51 The earth and sea. The five zones.
Bk I:52-68 The four winds
Bk I:68-88 Humankind
What do you think about: :
1. How is this creation story like and unlike other creation stories?
2. The god that creates the world isn't named, and it's not clear whether mankind was created by a god or the forces of nature. Why do you think it's said this way?
3. What is the shape of the newly created world?
4. Why did Ovid settle on "changes" as the theme of his poem?
5. What do you know about Ovid? What else did he write?
6. What is "Classical Mythology?" Do you have time to watch less than 10 minutes of Dr. Roger Travis of UCONN explain what "The Rudy Thing" is, so we can discuss it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY)
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
Ovid certainly lived thru chaotic times. Born in 43BC, the year after Caesar's assassination, he lived till 17AD, three years after the death of Augustus. So certainly he saw chaos being slowly restored to order and would be trying to flatter or please Augustus who was interested in literature and the arts and actively promoted them (as long as he agreed with them of-course). As for copying the epic style of the Greeks--well the Romans had an inferiority complex when it came to literature and sculpture and so on, so they always copied the Greeks (as we still do--look at these imposing buildings in Washington for instance, nothing like a Greek column to add a lot of class....same goes for dactylic hexameter I would suppose!)
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Whew. I am experiencing CHAOS right now. That is a lot to absorb without a background in mythology or philosophy. But I am sitting back for the moment and listening, thinking, and learning.
Don't let the chaos get you down, Mkaren. If you get information indigestion, just ignore that aspect and concentrate on another side of this multi-layered poem. I'm kind of letting it soak in gradually.
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I have two translations. Before I realized Lombardo had translated it, I bought Martin, as the better of the two in Kramerbooks. I don't remember what the other was, but it was a close call.
Then I bought Lombardo, because I like his style, and I trust him to minimize the sort of translation inaccuracies we've been finding.
Have any of you ever tried to translate poetry from another language? Even turning it into prose, it's very hard to get everything to say exactly what it did in the original language. The subtleties and language tricks aren't equivalent, and words don't mean exactly the same thing. If you're also trying to make decent verse out of it, you make even more compromises.
Martin talks about this a bit. One example: Ovid uses a trick (called the Golden Line) in which you have an adjective with its noun at the beginning and end of a line, with the verb in the middle. This is easy to do in Latin, but you can't usually make it work in English. His example, when Io's father finds that she has been turned into a heifer:
"Lost, you were less a grief than you are, found."
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Hmm interesting sentence structure PatH - it has been since my school years when I studied Latin but never did realize the structure - I think had the language been taught as a structured sentence I may have been a better student - as much as I am enchanted with chaos and see chaos as the driving force in life, at heart like so many of us I understand and attempt to place life experiences in a structured environment.
OK I am going to attempt to use your sentence guide to start my first sentence to my thought - please Pat let me know if I have it - frankly I am never sure what is or is not an adjective.
I was going to say - I think this bit helps - Using your sentence guide would this do it - Confused, I think to clarify our mind, untangled.
Anyhow, I have been confused if the Greek gods were the embodiment of their 'gift' to the universe or simply in 'control' of an outside force that they have a particular attachment. e.g. is Gaia actually earth and therefore, the words Gaia and Earth are interchangeable or is Gaia a goddess with an attachment to and control over earth.
Found a great site that this bit from the site helps - "Greek mythology emphasized the weakness of humans in contrast to the great and terrifying powers of nature. The Greeks believed that their gods, who were immortal, controlled all aspects of nature. So the Greeks acknowledged that their lives were completely dependent on the good will of the gods. In general, the relations between people and gods were considered friendly. But the gods delivered severe punishment to mortals who showed unacceptable behavior, such as indulgent pride, extreme ambition, or even excessive prosperity."
A link to the site - a nice clear and easy to read page on a site with many links to further our understanding of world history - http://history-world.org/greek_mythology.htm
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Ginny, the abridged Lombardo that I ended up with is called Ovid: The Essential Metamorphoses. It is "translated and edited by Stanley Lombardo, Introduction by W. R. Johnson," and its ISBN is 978-1-60384-624-0. It's intended as an undergraduate text, and when I read his note on the abridgment and translation, it DOES say that the whole of Book I was included, so I needn't have worried.
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Hello. Congratulations, Pat, and Ginny, for bringing this provocative, evocative book to our attention. Just look at the posts! This Ovid certainly arouses the creative urge and process in his readers. You all are 'the others' mentioned in the heading:
'He was the favorite Latin poet of the Renaissance, and influenced writers, composers and artists such as Chaucer, Spenser, Marlowe, Shakespeare, Dante, Mozart, Bernini, Montaigne, Cervantes, Delacroix, Dryden, Baudelaire, Botticelli, Petrarch, Bernini, Poussin,, Peter Paul Rubens, Pushkin , James Joyce, Benjamin Britten, Bob Dylan, Anne Rice, and many many others.'
That's impressive. They're all among, they make up a constellation of Western Civilization's stellar writers and artists. Out of curiousity I've just checked my book of Montaigne's Essays, and sure enough, M quotes Ovid sixty times! But...can you find a single scientist in the group? But, again, that will change. Scientists, as Barb has pointed out, have picked up on the idea of Chaos. Ovid may turn out to be the Einstein of the Ancients. Ovid did with 'change', what Einstein did with 'relativity'.
For the rest of us there's always the poetry. But there will be lingering doubts for some of us whose beginning began with creation and not something described as chaos. On the other hand, in Ovid's world decline it's not man's fall, but the fault of....?
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Lombardo's translation is preceded by an introduction written by an Emeritus Professor of Classics at the University of Chicago, W.R. Johnson. He explains that Ovid had been exiled to the shores of the Black Sea by Augustus for writing a lewd work instructing Roman men how to seduce Roman women, Augustan requirements for family values notwithstanding. He opens his essay with a section titled "The Theory of Everything." And that theory, as he reads the Metamorphoses, boils down to a cosmology which rushes through the creation of the world, to the creation of the major gods assembled under Jupiter's scepter, and then to humankind. Ovid then moves to the retelling of stories about the interaction between humans and the Olympians which make up the bulk of this epic-like work. Johnson argues that "the poem is not about [Jupiter and the Olympians]. It is rather about the world in which human beings live and love and suffer."
So all the stuff about gods, God, nature, cosmogony, chaos and the like is just a quick prologue to great stories about people who, by and large, are abused and victimized by the Immortals. Although Ovid compares Augustus and Caesar to the gods, as bringers of order to his world and times, his poem inevitably raises questions about what he really believed. That may be the most interesting question in the work.
Thank you, Ginny, for opening the door to this wonderful work.
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Phew! I guess this is what happens when you come late to the party.... I have but only one word floating in my head after reading all these posts and it is, OXYMORON!
Chaos is order, and order is chaos,
Before a body can be changed, it must exist. But it cannot come into existence except in virtue of a change,
Where time is, motion is. But time had no beginning; for every moment of time is the end of past and the beginning of future time. Consequently there was no first moment. Movement is not, he states, the result of the influence of one body on another
The origin of all motion is ultimately due to God, the first absolutely unchangeable cause. But the first absolutely unchangeable cause cannot produce motion except from eternity to eternity: for otherwise He would undergo change Himself. It is therefore impossible that motion if existent should ever have had a commencement.
Is it just me, or does anyone else see the loop of contradictions in all of this? Is Ovid purposefully spinning everything into an infinite loop? I have to say that for some reason it makes me think of the word, "circle" and a circle is a representation of never ending love. God is love..........so are we to come to a conclusion it's all about love?
Oh heavens forbid, my head is spinning for sure! Must take a break and come back later.
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I have just started SPQR - A History of Ancient Rome and find Ovid's introduction to the Metamorphoses to be similar to the problems inherent in the Romulus and Remus background to the founding of Rome. It seems to me that Roman authors tended to skim over the introductions to get to the meat of their material. Ovid's introduction looks more like the stage directions one would find at the beginning of a play. It is not really a philosophical analysis of the beginning of everything but an attempt to simply set the stage. I also completely agree with PatH as to the difficulties of translating poetry from one language to another. Look at all of the translations of Dante's Divine Comedy - they all bring something of value to it but none of them recreate it.
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I am reading the version "The Metamorphoses of Ovid a new verse translation by Allen Mandelbaum
His Prologue The Creation first verse reads:
My soul would sing of metamorphoses,
But since, o gods, you were the source of these
bodies becoming other bodies, breathe
your breath into my book of changes: may
the song I sing be seamless as its way
weaves from the world's beginning to our day.
I find it interesting how he refers to this a Ovid's seamless song in the front of his book he writes:
This translation of Ovid's seamless song is inscribed to
my brother in law and in love, Leonard Feldman,
and my sister Rayma.
He uses the word "seamless" which by definition:
seam·less
ˈsēmləs/
adjective
(of a fabric or surface) smooth and without seams or obvious joins.
* smooth and continuous, with no apparent gaps or spaces between one part and the next.
Which could be interpreted as infinity. So for me I am seeing a song of [i]infinite love.[/i]
Too simple?
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GINNY asks what surprised me? I certainly didn't expect to be buried in theories of the origin of the universe: now I see why you selected such a short piece for the first discussion.
Guess what: we're not going to settle the question of the origin of the universe in this discussion. But it's fascinating to me that people have been asking these questions and finding similar answers for as long as we have written records. And are still doing so (changes are still coming in astronomer's theories).
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Help me out, GINNY. How do Ovid and Virgil relate in time. Did they overlap?
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JoanK.,
Guess what: we're not going to settle the question of the origin of the universe in this discussion.
For Christians, we believe the answer is only with God, and we are not to know, and that is why there has never been any astrologers, scientists, theorists, philosophers, etc., etc,. etc. who has been able to settle the question of the origin of the universe. They are all as confused as Ovid is in this poem. But yes, it makes for a great conversation piece.
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JoanK.,
How do Ovid and Virgil relate in time. Did they overlap?
Virgil:
Born Publius Vergilius Maro
October 15, 70 BC
Near Mantua,[1] Cisalpine Gaul, Roman Republic
Died September 21, 19 BC (age 50)
Brundisium, Italy, Roman Empire
Occupation Poet
Nationality Roman
Genre Epic poetry, didactic poetry, pastoral poetry
Literary movement Augustan poet
The biographical tradition asserts that Virgil began the hexameter Eclogues (or Bucolics) in 42 BC and it is thought that the collection was published around 39–38 BC.
According to the tradition, Virgil traveled to Greece in about 19 BC to revise the Aeneid. After meeting Augustus in Athens and deciding to return home, Virgil caught a fever while visiting a town near Megara. After crossing to Italy by ship, weakened with disease, Virgil died in Brundisium harbor on September 21, 19 BC
Ovid:
Born Publius Ovidius Naso[a]
20 March 43 BC
Sulmo, Italia, Roman Republic
Died AD 17 or 18 (age 58–60)
Tomis, Scythia Minor, Roman Empire
Occupation Poet
Genre Elegy, epic, drama
The first major Roman poet to begin his career during the reign of Augustus.
Ovid's first recitation has been dated to around 25 BC, when he was eighteen.[11] He was part of the circle centered on the patron Marcus Valerius Messalla Corvinus, and seems to have been a friend of poets in the circle of Maecenas. In Trist. 4.10.41–54, Ovid mentions friendships with Macer, Propertius, Horace, Ponticus and Bassus (he only barely met Virgil and Tibullus, a fellow member of Messalla's circle whose elegies he admired greatly). Ovid was very popular at the time of his early works, but was later exiled by Augustus in AD 8.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgil
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It's a pleasure to see you all in the middle of this snow crisis which I hope is going to spare most of you on the East Coast, the storm of the century they say. 26 inches predicted in Washington DC, can that be right?
I do hope you are ALL safe and sound and will remain that way. How cruel were the storms in Mississippi yesterday. What on earth is happening to our weather? Chaos?
hahaha
Our Uverse and phone keep going out and coming back on so I'm going to make short posts.
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It's good to see you here, Bellamarie; I wondered where you were.
Thanks for answering JoanK's question. Ginny's internet has probably been snowed out; it was already pretty flaky this morning. Mine may go too later. So Virgil died when Ovid was 24, just beginning to be a part of the poetic scene, and by the time Ovid wrote Metamorphoses, Virgil was surely the respected old guard, the model to look up to. (Rightly so, of course)
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Hi, Ginny, didn't expect to see you. Yes, they're predicting something like that. It's 4-5 inches so far, with a lull, but plenty more to come.
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Bellamarie, I like Mandelbaum's "seamless song"--a good example of using different words to express the same idea, in this case continuous thread, epic sweep, etc.
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PatH., Yes, at least we know Ovid and Virgil were in the same period and knew each other. It appears in this article, Ovid "only barely met Virgil and Tibullus, a fellow member of Messalla's circle whose elegies he admired greatly)"
I like Mandelbaum's as well. Seems so much more simpler to understand.
Oh goodness, all you in the path of this snowmageddon please be safe and warm. I have a friend in the Tn. mountains who is all hunkered down and ready in case her electricity goes out. Hope you all are prepared. Ginny, I agree this weather is chaos. The perfect word while reading this book!!
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Thank you all for bringing so many riches to the table. What a joy to be snowbound if you can call it that and have this great discussion to warm ourselves by!
Dana makes a good point. And bellamarie helps with the dates and places. That's most useful, thank you.
Pat, we were posting together! I am glad to see you still here!
As Dana said, Ovid was born almost a year to the day after Julius Caesar was assassinated. So that would have made him 16 when Augustus as Dana says, began forging order out of the chaos of Civil War. He did not live in Rome but was not so far away that the horror of the Civil War and the proscriptions would have escaped his notice.
Who can say what living thru a Civil War and the particular horror of proscriptions would do to a child, even on the periphery, if indeed he was?
So he starts THIS story with "Chaos," a word which first appeared in the Latin Language in this book, in line 7. It's thought he created that word, too. He does a lot of creative things in those first few lines, maybe we can look at them down the road (we can return to anything).
But going back to Dana's thought, even when order is created out of chaos, that doesn't mean it can always stay orderly. Phaethon almost destroys the world or order and almost plunges it into chaos again. How does a man or woman find a place in either world? I just read today a fascinating theory on why the animals in Ovid are personified, and it's a theory which pertains to us today. Even though we're not talking animals.
And as Bellamarie pointed out, Ovid wasn't a friend of Vergil apparently but there's no doubt he read and knew Vergil's work. As well as the work of each of the people we've mentioned. Hesiod, Homer, Plato, Lucretius, and the Epicurean and the Stoic philosophical beliefs.
How do we know?
Because he makes reference to them in the Metamorphoses. He starts out with X's theory but then changes it Y. He's changing what WAS and what was known into what he wants it to be and he's very clever with it.
Let's look at what you've all said:
Jonathan, once again you stir the waters, you're creating your own changes with: "But there will be lingering doubts for some of us whose beginning began with creation and not something described as chaos. On the other hand, in Ovid's world decline it's not man's fall, but the fault of....?
My goodness, I love that. How would you fill in the blank?
Howard, those are some really good points! Although Ovid compares Augustus and Caesar to the gods, as bringers of order to his world and times, his poem inevitably raises questions about what he really believed. That may be the most interesting question in the work.
Especially when you consider what Jupiter does in this poem while comparing him to Augustus...this is going to be interesting.
JoanK, But it's fascinating to me that people have been asking these questions and finding similar answers for as long as we have written records. And are still doing so (changes are still coming in astronomer's theories).
Another unexpected benefit to me has been that the more we know of the prominent Greek thinkers about Creation and Chaos Theory, the more we can appreciate how different Ovid really was. We know he's different from us (or is he) but how did he differ from the prevailing thought on how the world began? I agree with you, it IS interesting.
I personally found the weight of things in his Creation fascinating.
The earth is heavy, I can't get my mind off that, in the swirling mists, his description of the images there, he's done a good job. I spent too much time yesterday trying to figure how I would describe the creation of the universe. Or even a planet. Look at that photograph from NASA in the heading. Or any of them from Hubble and take a pencil and write down what you see? It's not easy. Much less put it in a marching meter like Dactylic Hexameter.
(Don't you find it fascinating that a language like Latin which is so mathematically exact and precise can lend itself to this kind of fanciful imagery?)
(Thank you Bellamarie for quoting form your Mandelbaum. I love to see different versions).
I think I would love to see, if you all would care to put it in, the different takes of the invocation in each of the different translators you all have on the Prologue? The issue is the word "nam." (for) Some scholars see something there which is kind of startling, I would like to see if we think so when we see all of the translations? (I do hate to miss a point!) hahaha
Thank you Roxania, that's a load off, but it had Book I anyway! :) I imagine it would be hard to stop with I tho. Phaethon spans I and II, and nobody would cut off Phaethon. And thank you for putting this in: the Lombardo:
My mind leads me to speak now of forms changed
into new bodies; O gods above, inspire
this undertaking (which you've changed as well)
and guide my poem in its epic sweep
from the world's beginning to the present day.
I don't see the "nam" theory there, but I think some of you see it in some of yours by your reactions. I am eager to see if I can see it, too.
This is such a good point, Pat!
Have any of you ever tried to translate poetry from another language? Even turning it into prose, it's very hard to get everything to say exactly what it did in the original language.
Especially since some ancient cultures had idioms, etc., which are not translatable in our day.
Such good points, Kenneth! Ovid's introduction to the Metamorphoses to be similar to the problems inherent in the Romulus and Remus background to the founding of Rome. That's astute. I think maybe one reason is the lack of written record for the early Kings, rendering a lot of it apocryphal. But it sure IS a great comparison! That's a good point.
This was an interesting statement, Barbara, thank you for bringing it here: controlled all aspects of nature. So the Greeks acknowledged that their lives were completely dependent on the good will of the gods. In general, the relations between people and gods were considered friendly. But the gods delivered severe punishment to mortals who showed unacceptable behavior, such as indulgent pride, extreme ambition, or even excessive prosperity." That's a good thing to keep in the back of our minds because we're going to need it.
So here's a question: if the ...have we seen all the different ways the god or force of nature is described by the different translators? THAT should be an eye opener.
Here's Lombardo:
Some god, or superior nature, settled this conflict.
Spinning earth from heaven, sea from earth,
And the pure sky from the dense atmosphere.
And here's Belamarie's Mandlebaum:
His Prologue The Creation first verse reads:
My soul would sing of metamorphoses,
But since, o gods, you were the source of these
bodies becoming other bodies, breathe
your breath into my book of changes: may
the song I sing be seamless as its way
weaves from the world's beginning to our day.
So that's two, what does YOURS say?
Have you noticed that this unnamed god or benevolent force doesn't seem very important, does he? He's not even got a name. Did that strike anybody else as odd? What can it mean?
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Oh I forgot to put this in, so sorry.
Here's the deal about Classical Mythology? Classicists all have this mindset, and it might be a great idea of we could share in it, too, so here's Dr. Roger Travis of UCONN, explaining in less than 10 minutes what he means by "The Rudy Thing," and with it, what Classical Mythology really is.
If you get a chance sometime, why not take a look? I just saw it alluded to in the National Football Championship, and I think it informs our reading and I wonder what you think of his "cultural truth values" that resonate today?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY)
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The chaos discussion and Ginny’s comment on weather in Mississippi (it was snowing very lightly when I went running this morning) put me in mind of the line from Sean O’Casey’s Juno and the Paycock:
I'm telling you... Joxer... th' whole worl's... in a terr...ible state o'... chassis!
Kenneth’s post “set the stage” for something I wanted to say, but I thought it might be off topic until I saw his post.
Today’s Wall St. Journal has an article about Ann Goldstein, who has made a reputation for herself as a translator of works from Italian to English, even though translating is not her “day” job. Her comments on translators’ styles seem germane to the posts about the various Metamorphoses translations: she “leans toward fidelity,” whereas other translators “take more liberties with the text.” If she’s translated anything from Greek, that’s not mentioned, but she did take Greek in college in order to read Homer and Aeschylus.
Here’s the link for the article:
http://on.wsj.com/1PrGuTc
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Ginny, I watched the first intro and will be going on to watch the rest on "the big screen" downstairs since I get YouTube on my Roku. I see that there is a section on Ovid.
We are getting more snow than originally predicted - BOO! - winds to pick up later today, so I hear. Great!
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Yes we are, too! I'm shocked to see that thing spiraling back so this is going to be interesting but all of you hang in there! It's a very serious situation for an awful lot of people.
Frybabe if you watch all of those, you will know a lot more about mythology and Ovid, and what he was doing than most of us...I myself haven't seen them all. I hope you will continue to bring whatever you glean from those films to this discussion.
I really admire people like Roger Travis and Mary Beard who continue to bring to all of us, me included, the latest skinny on current thought which we ordinarily wouldn't have a chance to know. I think it's a great service. (And anytime you download anything from the Internet you have to be very careful about your antivirus and malware software.)
Here's the link again for those who might like to know more about Classical Mythology. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY)
IWILL, what a great article on translation. ( Loved the "chassis!"). In an earlier article on them a while back Lahiri talked about her great love for Ovid's Metamorphoses which I thought was very interesting.... this is very au courant what we're doing, isn't it, and it's kind of exciting!
Bellamarie, that "too simple?" haunted me all night ....I thought I had responded to that but as I look back to see I didn't.... Mandlebaum's translation is very interesting!
I want to bring here, if I can stay on, if not later in the week, the "nam" theory question and see if you all see it. I don't see it so far, and it may rely on the translator, which of course opens up at entire new Pandora's box. The difference in the translations already of the prologue are staggering. I think you're a very close and careful reader, so let's keep that in mind and watch for seamless or the opposite in this poem and see if we can prove or disprove Mandlebaum's idea.
Meanwhile do you all agree or disagree with Dr. Travis on what makes mythology relevant today?
I wonder....can we find anything to relate to in this current section?
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Oh and one more thing. I'm so intrigued by your reactions to the poem. Bellamarie is seeing a song of infinite love. DNix and Karen so far are seeing audacity and hubris, in the author, if I read them right. What about the rest of you? What are you seeing so far?
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Good morning! I hope you are not snowed in this beautiful morning. I was watching the morning news and I just feel awful for the east coast. The southern states never are really prepared for any type of weather like this because it is so outside their norm. I live in Toledo, Ohio and we have gotten none, although I as a northerner was hoping for some!
Anyway I found this to be interesting: ginny, Have you noticed that this unnamed god or benevolent force doesn't seem very important, does he?
When I read this I immediately thought, how can a god who breathes air into, and is the source of these bodies becoming other bodies be unimportant? Ovid, by Mandlebaum's translation, I see, is stating this is the god of creation. Breath is the ultimate essence of life, breath represents life in and of itself. So i see this unnamed god as life, which would be of great importance, with or without a name. Ovid is asking for this god to breathe into his book (book of life) of changes. I see, he is asking this god to bring life into his book of changes, which for me he is asking this god to breathe into his very soul, so he can become a changed person, asking for infinite life.
Mandlebaum:
His Prologue The Creation first verse reads:
My soul would sing of metamorphoses,
But since, o gods, you were the source of these
bodies becoming other bodies, breathe
your breath into my book of changes: may
the song I sing be seamless as its way
weaves from the world's beginning to our day.
Got to run to a granddaughter's basketball game. I'll be back later......
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I am reading the Brookes More translation. In his introduction below, his reads soul, rather than mind. To me, at least, that changes the meaning almost entirely.
I am also intrigued by idea of the gods changing themselves.
And, before I forget. I wish to thank you Ginny ,Path and all of the participants for making this possible. May all of our changes (metamorphoses) be for the best.
P. S.
We seem to be completely dodging the snowstorm here in Upstate NY. Best to all that are being hit. We here certainly know what you are going through.
METMORHOSES BOOK 1, TRANS. BY BROOKES MORE
INVOCATION
1] My soul is wrought to sing of forms transformed to bodies new and strange! Immortal Gods inspire my heart, for ye have changed yourselves and all things you have changed! Oh lead my song in smooth and measured strains, from olden days when earth began to this completed time!
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Why doesn't the god have a name? It might not be a question of importance; Ovid might be deliberately keeping this vague. If he's using the first bit as a staging area, and if he's deliberately not taking sides in different theories, this might be a way to be all-inclusive.
Eighteen inches or so here, and still falling, but at least we're not getting the threatened 50mph winds.
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I'm not sure it is important the god of creation have a name. But what I was thinking of this morning was that the god of creation named everything he created. Now that is food for thought.....
Eighteen inches..oh my!!!
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I thought that clip on the importance of myth was quite interesting. The point I was trying to make earlier was that perhaps the old myths don't really matter because we keep on making them for ourselves; now he doesn't say the old myths don't matter, but he does say we keep on making them for ourselves! (At least the old myths can't be got rid of, like old buildings)
I thought his definition of a myth was worth considering...a story about a person that we can resonate with, that gives us hope, that fills us with exultation......but I wonder....not all myths do that. I guess any lasting story could be a myth, and the reasons for it lasting may be diverse.
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Thanks for the timing of Ovid and Virgil. As Ginny says, it relates to attitudes toward chaos. And toward change. Rome had been in chaos, until Augustus came along and restored order and prosperity. Ovid lived through that as a youth and it must have made him very aware of change. Interestingly, he sees it as constant. he was right, not so right when he also seems to feel it as good. He had experienced the good changes that Augustus made. But Augustus did it by appropriating more power to his position: he used that power wisely but when he died, those that followed him misused that power, and more chaos followed.
This is a pattern that seems to recur in history, where chaos is followed by dictatorship, bringing order but eventually problems. (as in Nazi Germany)
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What a pleasure to find myself in such good company. Of course I've heard of Ovid; but only derivatively in the writings of so many others. And now, to get it straight from the horse's mouth...forgive me Ovid, it's only an expression. But I'm dazzled by your audacity...to tell the history of the world, from the beginning, in your inimitable style. What a progression from those charming little love elegies you used to write. Writing the Metamorphoses has certainly put you into the company of the greats, like Vergil and Homer. Alas, many of us have to read you in translation, but some are very good, don't you think? Here's how Ted Hughes caught the spirit of your opening lines, in his book Tales from Ovid.
'Now I am ready to tell how bodies are changed/ Into different bodies./ I summon the supernatural beings/ Who first contrived/ The transmogrifications/ In the stuff of life./ You did it for your own amusement./ Descend again, be pleased to reanimate, This revival of those marvels./ Reveal, now, exactly/ How they were performed/ From the beginning/Up to this minute.'
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I really liked the lecture on "the Rudy thing." I'll be looking for it in my reading of Ovid.
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JONATHAN: I was posting while you were. Hughes adds a lot, doesn't he. "You did it for your own amusement." I don't see that in the other translations.
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I am simply amazed at the many different translations of just the prologue, and how each translation gives a new interpretation and perception to the words we read. I can see how I am seeing from my translation so differently than the others.
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Two feet now in Washington's northern suburbs, and still coming down, with howling winds blasting. The world, even the air, has turned white. Now that's a metamorphosis!
Mandelbaum's translation appears to change Ovid's iambic hexameter (very suitable for Latin) into Shakespeare's iambic pentameter (very suitable for English). But he has to do some stretching.
Ginny's "nam" mystery comes from the parenthetical in Ovid's second line: di, coeptis (nam vos mutastis et illas), which Lombardo translates as "Oh Gods, inspire my beginnings (for you changed them too). Could "the beginnings" changed by the gods be biographical, and refer to the changes in Ovid's life as he moved from his origins outside of Rome to the shores of the Black Sea?
Thinking about the unnamed god or superior nature"....whoever it was" reminds me that the God in Genesis has no name, at least none that can be uttered. When, in the burning bush episode in Exodus, Moses asks for God's name the answer is simply "I am who I am." Ex. 3.13. So the "World Fabricator" needs no name, at least for followers of the Old Testament.
That brings on another thought. In Genesis, God existed before the beginning, like the unnamed god in Ovid. But unlike the "superior nature" in Ovid, the Creator in Genesis does not establish a subset of gods to rule humankind. And "whoever it was" does not drop out of the picture as in the Metamorphoses, but takes direct charge by commanding "you shall have no other gods before me," and by forbidding the making and worship of graven images. Ex. 20, v. 3 and 4.
Fun stuff to think about in the midst of a blizzard.
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Just thinking about Chaos on a Saturday Afternoon.
It seems to me that I am always trying to bring order out of the chaos in my own life. Chaos "... an inert lump, the concentrated, Discordant seeds of disconnected entities." My world and my mind swimming in that void where words and images, yesterday and tomorrow swirl like gasses creating fog and not allowing me to move. I might as well be chained up, but as Ovid describes, " there was land around, and sea and air, But land impossible to walk on, unnavigable water, Lightless air; nothing held its shape, And each thing crowded the other out. In one body Cold wrestled with hot, wet with dry, soft with hard, and weightless with heavy."
Is it "some god, or superior nature" within me that provides a small nudge that allows me to put one foot ahead of the other in a small uncertain step? I grasp one small idea, I wash one dish, I type one sentence or paint one stroke and the fog begins to clear. Creation begins anew and I am a "new form."
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I too have been taken with the concept of Chaos and how I see it as a constant - that changing my approach to life most often came about as a decision after what I saw or felt as a chaotic situation. I am seeing every change in our contracts that make legal the changing ownership of property came as a result of a chaotic situation between those involved in the transaction. Change in the face of our map is typical after war and nations change their governess most often after chaos that may include war but is seldom if ever a peaceful transformation.
One bit I came across that said it better than most sites is how change is really the 'order' of things.
Small differences in initial conditions yield widely diverging outcomes for dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction impossible in general. This happens even though their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.
I can see from this statement explaining chaos that a small difference in the initial raising of a sibling twins will yield widely divergent outcomes unless, their upbringing were static with no moving or outside influence and even then, any small difference during birth or infancy is a random element therefore, long-term behavior cannot be predicted.
At first I thought the desire for order comes from mankind - our fear of anything we cannot control or understand so that we imagine the desirable as Thomas Moore's Utopia and every time Chaos rears it's, to us, ugly head we panic and figure out how to change it rather than changing ourselves to accommodate the change.
Well looking deeper with this thought in mind was I ever wrong - it seems that is what Ovid is writing about using a tale about earth and sea, trees, mountains, the four winds that we are so familiar with that the implications went over my head.
This is saying it using today's scientific terminology which takes it out of the fanciful story-line of a myth.
Right after the Big Bang, the Universe was almost infinitely hot and energetic. It was so energetic that even the most basic particles such as atoms could not coalesce out of the seething, frothing sea of sub-atomic chaos. And yet somehow out of all this disorder, instead of entropy ruling and the disorder just spreading and cooling, order arose. Atoms formed, then molecules. Gas clouds drifted closer and closer together. Stars formed, stars clustered into well-organized galaxies.
Even today, we see examples of order emerging from chaos all around us. The symmetry of patterns the chaotic desert winds form in sand dunes and the meandering of rivers. All sorts of patterns emerge in nature from completely stochastic processes. We see the same thing mirrored in certain chemical reactions and behavior of materials when pushed far from equilibrium.
So patterns emerge and humans continue to mirror the idea of patterns as a means of creating order. However, it appears the cards are stacked against us - and that is "THE" aspect of order that we keep trying to tackle and it cannot nor will not be put down is, "Predictability"
Order in NOT predictable! Not only because a small unnoticed change could have occurred at the conception of the body or idea, even if the idea is repeated over and over with success, there is another aspect of Chaos that enters the equation. It seems as any body or idea increases in size out the window goes the uniform pattern and in comes unpredictability. Only by remaining the same in one place will the orderly pattern remain consistent. An example is told of using numbers in groups of 3 to solve a problem and then using those identical 3 but doubling them to 6 numbers and solving the identical problem, the system is off - the computer world knows this as a given.
What I am learning about Chaos is fabulous - this is a wonderful site if your curiosity is on fire - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3202497/
I wonder why did we not want to look closely at the chaos described by Ovid till the last half of the twentieth century - I understand others had to come first but it took several thousand years to satisfy a curiosity to look at the mass described by Ovid.
Looking at just the translations provided in the heading - I found it interesting to see how Chaos is described.
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BY A.S. KLINE = Before there was earth or sea or the sky that covers everything, Nature appeared the same throughout the whole world: what we call chaos: a raw confused mass, nothing but inert matter, badly combined discordant atoms of things, confused in the one place.
BY SIR SAMUEL GARTH, JOHN DRYDEN - Rather a rude and indigested mass:
A lifeless lump, unfashion'd, and unfram'd,
Of jarring seeds; and justly Chaos nam'd.
BY BROOKES MORE - the face of Nature in a vast expanse was naught but Chaos uniformly waste. It was a rude and undeveloped mass, that nothing made except a ponderous weight; and all discordant elements confused, were there congested in a shapeless heap.
Words used to describe Chaos
- raw
- Confused mass
- Inert matter
- Discordant atoms
- In one place - * an important concept between Chaos and Order that I wonder if Ovid even understood?
- Rude
- Indigested mass
- Lifeless
- Unfashioned
- Unframed
- Jarring seeds
- Rude
- Undeveloped mass
- Ponderous weight
- Discordant elements confused
- Congested
- Shapeless heap
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howshap That brings on another thought. In Genesis, God existed before the beginning, like the unnamed god in Ovid. But unlike the "superior nature" in Ovid, the Creator in Genesis does not establish a subset of gods to rule humankind. And "whoever it was" does not drop out of the picture as in the Metamorphoses, but takes direct charge by commanding "you shall have no other gods before me," and by forbidding the making and worship of graven images. Ex. 20, v. 3 and 4.
I, too, was interested in this question and did some research on ancient Jews and why they only believed in one god. I found this article written by Israel Drazin, an author, rabbi, attorney and brigadier general. This is one smart man.....
Education: Dr. Drazin, born in 1935, received three rabbinical degrees in 1957, a B.A. in Theology in 1957, an M.Ed. In Psychology in 1966, a JD in Law in 1974, a MA in Hebrew Literature in 1978 and a Ph.D. with honors in Aramaic Literature in 1981. Thereafter, he completed two years of post-graduate study in both Philosophy and Mysticism and graduated the U.S. Army’s Command and General Staff College and its War College for generals in 1985.
Here's what he writes about the ancient Jews:
Ancient Jews[1] believed that many gods exist but felt that they should only worship y-h-v-h[2] and maintained this notion for hundreds of years, and this fact is found in hundreds of verses in the Hebrew Bible. This is not monotheism, but monolatry. Monotheism is the belief that only a single god exists. Monolatry, from the Greek mono = one and latreia = service, is the belief that many gods exist but only one should be served.
Today, Judaism is strictly monotheistic, but scholars have recognized the many examples in the Hebrew Bible of the ancient Israelites being monolatric (although there are also statements in the Hebrew Bible that are clearly monotheistic). The following are some examples of monolatry.
The Decalogue, meaning ten statements, commonly called Ten Commandments even though the ten statements contain more than ten commands, begins with y-h-v-h telling the Israelites that while there are other gods, he is the one who helped them in the past, and he alone should be worshipped by them. “I am y-h-v-h your God.” This phrase “your God” reappears frequently in Scripture. God does not say, I am God, meaning the only one, but I am your god, meaning that other nations have a different god. This is similar to saying “I am your father,” meaning that there are other fathers but I belong to you and you to me.
Y-h-v-h continues by telling the Israelites why they should serve him, because he, not the other gods, “brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.”
Then he says that although there are other gods “Thou shalt have no other gods before me,” meaning, don’t serve them. The Israelites are told that if they serve any of the other gods, he, y-h-v-h, will be angry “for I, y-h-v-h, your god, am a jealous god.”
The famous statement called shema in Deuteronomy 6:4 reflects monolatry: “Hear[3] Israel, y-h-v-h is our God; y-h-v-h is one.”[4] Psalm 82:1 is clearly monolatric: “God (elohim) stands in the Assembly of God (el): in the midst of the judges, he judges.”
Many other psalms express monolatry, for example those recited in the Jewish Friday night service. Psalm 95: “For y-h-v-h is a great god and a greater king than all (other) gods…. He is our god.” This psalm lists things that y-h-v-h did for the Israelites. Psalm 96: “Y-h-v-h is great and very praiseworthy. He is more awesome than other gods. For (while) the gods of the nations are gods,[5] y-h-v-h made the heaven.” Psalm 97: “All gods bow to him…. You are exalted above all gods.”[6] Psalm 98 has words that are similar to 96. Psalm 99 repeats four times y-h-v-h is “our god.”
Psalm 29 and many other sources speak of the Israelites being “God’s people.” This concept that Jews are the “chosen people,” as in the prayer “you have chosen us from all other people,” is misunderstood because people don’t realize that it is a monolatric statement. It is not saying that Jews are special. It is saying that the Israelites understood that y-h-v-h decided to be the god of the Israelites who in turn agreed to serve him rather than the other gods.
The repeated references to y-h-v-h being the god of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, rather than saying that Jews accept him because he is the only god, means that Jews are faithful to the tradition and belief of their ancestors; the ancestors accepted y-h-v-h as god, and so will we. We see this, for example, in Exodus 15: “This is my god, and I will beautify him, my father’s god, and I will exalt him.”
The oft repeated phrase y-h-v-h elohim, usually translated “Lord God,” should be understood as “the God y-h-v-h” differentiating him from other gods.
The scholar Arnold Ehrlich (1848-1919), author of Mikra Ki-pheshuto, “The Bible Literally,” offered two other interesting examples. When y-h-v-h first spoke with Abraham in Genesis 12, he asked Abraham to make a covenant with him: Abraham should serve him and he, in turn, would reward Abraham for his service. Ehrlich suggests that if Abraham believed that only one god exists there would have been no need for a covenant. God would have simply said, “I am God, serve me.” There would have been no need to bargain, establish a covenant, and promise payment for the service. Ehrlich gives an example: when Adam joined with (married) Eve, he didn’t make a covenant with her, binding her to remain faithful only to him, because there was no need for it; there were no other men for Eve to be unfaithful with.
Similarly, in Genesis 14:18, Abraham gives ten percent of the loot he acquired during his battle against the four kings to Melchizedek the priest of el elyon. Ehrlich explains that Melchizedek was not a priest to y-h-v-h, for if he was, he would have been closer to y-h-v-h than Abraham. Abraham gave ten percent of his booty because he had battled in the land where el elyon was god, and he thought that this was the proper thing to do. However, immediately afterwards, in verse 22, Abraham made an oath to his own God, y-h-v-h.
This are just some of hundred of biblical verses that could be cited showing monolatry.
[1] The ancient Jews were called B’nei Yisrael, Israelites, in most of the Hebrew Bible. It was only after 536 BCE when many Israelites returned from the Babylonian exile to the small area that once belonged to the tribe of Judah that the people were called Judeans, after their land, or Jews in short.
[2] The Jewish God is named y-h-v-h in the Hebrew Bible. We no longer know how to pronounce these consonants. They are frequently written as Jehovah. Since early time, Jews felt that they should respectfully not mention God’s name. Thus in the first translation of the Bible in about 250 BCE, the Septuagint, the Jewish Greek translators substituted the Greek word curios, which means Lord, and this practice of substituting Lord for y-h-v-h has continued in most Bible translations today.
[3] The term “hear” in the Bible is often used as a metaphor, as it is in English, meaning “accept.”
[4] The word “one” here is obscure. Many understand it to mean “unique,” better than other gods or indicating that he is very powerful.
[5] Ignoring the monolatry, the rabbis interpreted elilim as “idols.”
[6] The rabbis interpret elohim here as “heavenly powers.”
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/chaos1.jpg)
"Hand of God" Spotted by NASA Space Telescope
Metamorphosis. We all know what it is every time we look in the mirror. :) And we are all familiar with Midas Mufflers, and the Midas Touch. We eat cereal with no thought as to where the word originated, and we think of Pluto, Jupiter, Callisto, Saturn, Mercury et al. as only planets, but have you ever wondered where those names all came from, and what they really mean? We know what an echo is, but do we know who she was?
2000 years ago Ovid wrote an epic poem called The Metamorphoses, about change and transformation. He was the favorite poet of the Renaissance, and influenced Chaucer, Shakespeare, Spenser, Marlowe, and Milton.
When did you last read him? Here's your chance! Why not join us in a bold new experiment in the New Year with something old and something new, (for us) : Ovid's Metamorphoses, Book I? It's available free, online, and can be read in 1/2 hour. We'll compare translations and see which we think is best and enjoy talking about the issues it raises. Come join us!
(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free. Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
Week One: January 21-? Chaos and Order:
Bk I:1-20 The Primal Chaos
Bk I:21-31 Separation of the elements
Bk I:32-51 The earth and sea. The five zones.
Bk I:52-68 The four winds
Bk I:68-88 Humankind
What do you think about: :
1. How is this creation story like and unlike other creation stories?
2. The god that creates the world isn't named, and it's not clear whether mankind was created by a god or the forces of nature. Why do you think it's said this way?
3. What is the shape of the newly created world?
4. Why did Ovid settle on "changes" as the theme of his poem?
5. What do you know about Ovid? What else did he write?
6. What is "Classical Mythology?" Do you have time to watch less than 10 minutes of Dr. Roger Travis of UCONN explain what "The Rudy Thing" is, so we can discuss it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY)
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
Thank you, Barb.
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Halcyon what I am wondering - since it took so long for anyone to look closely at Chaos and see how it functions and some of the benefits and the religions of old all saw Chaos as something bad as something that helped them develop the idea of a 'hell' in the afterlife - could it be that so much of what was labeled bad should now be looked at and examined in light of what we know now about Chaos - that the so called bad was not an abhorrent of evil but a necessary outcome that promotes growth and change - and that what we are really trying to control is predictability and that is impossible given the various influences that affect the system of the universe.
I do not think we will like Chaos but we could see its affect in history and in our own lives as a moving force and accept it is part of our life in the Universe. And we do have the cancellation that order is the natural response to chaos - so that our work to continue creating order and the attributes that add to order is the goal however, just not wanting Chaos to no longer affect our life.
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I wasn't planning on writing anything, but after reading the many great commentaries, it stimulated me to gather some of my thoughts on the subject. So here goes:
The Metamorphosis is Ovid’s attempt, it seems to me, to enter the debate about the nature of the world in which there are competing and opposing forces at work all the time. There are forces that propel toward chaos and disorder – I am thinking of the laws of thermodynamics, and there are those that push for order and form – for example gravitational and biological forces . Preceeding Ovid in time, there were the two pre-Socratic philosophical views of nature: constancy versus change. By the evidence of the Metamorphosis, Ovid shows that he held the latter view. Change is the constant and it is everywhere and has been happening from the very beginning and is going on all the time. And so he made that his theme of this work, namely, Metamorphosis.
I believe also, with his work here, he is showing his vast knowledge and intellectual power to extract order out of chaos. He imposed order on the chaos of all the mythical stories inherited from the ancestors; that order is the common theme of change or metamorphosis. He begins his work with chaos, an unrecognizable, formless entity. But it eventually becomes ordered though some force, or forces in the world. The movement from chaos to order represents man’s coming out of ignorance and into knowledge. Chaos comes from ignorance, and order from knowledge.
A problem that arises from change is the one of identity. Is the thing that undergoes change the same thing as before the change? When Daphne was changed into the laurel tree, Apollo still retained the love for her by making the tree sacred. Was the laurel tree Daphne? Was Daphne the laurel tree? In another example, Zeus changed the princess Io to a white heifer in order to conceal his affair from Hera. Later the heifer was changed back into Io, the human. Was she still Io when she was the heifer? It seems like one can change and still remain essentially the same. After all, we all change throughout our lifetime, and yet remain the same individual even though our outward appearance undergoes dramatic changes. I think Ovid was touching on that idea.
Finally, although we moderns of today possess the concept of infinity, I am not sure if the Greeks accepted it. With the idea of infinity, we can imagine a world that goes on for an infinity of time. There are astronomers who propose that the universe is expanding and that that expansion will continue into infinity. Others hold that existence is cyclical; the universe expands and then contracts and exands again. I believe the ancient Greeks saw the world as cyclical. Life appears that way. Days become nights and back again. There are the same seasons every year. The idea in the Metamorphosis is change. But is it change from chaos to order only? It appears that way to me. For us moderns, with the concept of infinity and thermodynamics, we can imagine a world that goes from chaos to order and finally to total emptiness, a dark and cold void.
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howshap,
Thinking about the unnamed god or superior nature"....whoever it was" reminds me that the God in Genesis has no name, at least none that can be uttered. When, in the burning bush episode in Exodus, Moses asks for God's name the answer is simply "I am who I am." Ex. 3.13. So the "World Fabricator" needs no name, at least for followers of the Old Testament.
That brings on another thought. In Genesis, God existed before the beginning, like the unnamed god in Ovid. But unlike the "superior nature" in Ovid, the Creator in Genesis does not establish a subset of gods to rule humankind. And "whoever it was" does not drop out of the picture as in the Metamorphoses, but takes direct charge by commanding "you shall have no other gods before me," and by forbidding the making and worship of graven images. Ex. 20, v. 3 and 4.
I was thinking about this while I was out today and came in and saw your post. You touched on exactly what I had intended to. The creator God existed before anything else. He does not have, nor does he need a name, but in the New Testament, God has decided to send his son Jesus who is God in human flesh, he is given the name "Jesus" which in Hebrew means: "God saves." God also sends the Holy Spirit who is the third person of the Blessed Trinity to live inside us. Ovid has created many gods, yet he calls upon the god of creation to breathe breath into him, which I can see him asking God to fill him with the Holy Spirit.
marcustullius, Change is the constant and it is everywhere and has been happening from the very beginning and is going on all the time. And so he made that his theme of this work, namely, Metamorphosis.
If I may expand on your thought, time is never ending. Time does not stand still, time is always changing, tick, tock, tick, tock, the seconds tick off and it is yet another day. A new day for change to occur. Although our life can change, and our body can die, our soul lives on forever. I see Ovid showing us the metamorphosis of the gods turning into non human/inanimate objects, and then back into themselves again similar to when God turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt.
Ovid has Daphne and Io transformed because of Apollo and Zeus's sinfulness, just as God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes due to sinfulness. Ios, Lot's wife turned back and looked at the city because even though she was leaving with Lot, her desire was to remain with the sinners in Sodom and Gomorrah. Genesis 19 - The Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah
A lesson the world could learn from Ovid's Metamorphoses, which I believe was inspired from the Bible, God saves, Ovid wants this to live on, "seamless" from the world's beginning to our day.....infinity.
Thank you marcustullius, I for one am happy and enlightened with your thoughts on the subject. Please do not hold back. We are all just throwing things out here and hoping it makes sense, and at least to us it does, and that is important for sharing. I believe JoanK., said earlier we will never figure it out, but we sure will have a great discussion in trying.
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Wow. All I can say is wow. You all dazzle. I almost feel like Phaethon coming into the palace of his father the Sun god. I was amazed when I went to bed last night at your profound thoughts on this poem. I like to read such thoughts and go away and think about them, it makes a very rich experience, at least for me.
But we'll get to Phaethon, we're still on the first 88 lines. Let's try, me included, To confine ourselves to the material in the first 88 lines.
I hope everybody trapped in the storm will have some relief today, the floods in NJ and the scenes of Times Square are just unreal. The storm was unreal. I am still struggling with connectivity issues have lost just this minute again the Internet and the phone this morning right after making this post, which Siri and I are struggling to edit. I'm going to have wait until it comes back on so that I can continue because I can't do anything on an iPad I don't know how the rest of you do.
We can immediately notice several things today:
The biggest shock to me is difference in translations. How much more widely could it stretch? It's the same Latin words! It's amazing what one little word or turn of phrase or interpretation of the translator does to a concept, and how it distorts it. We can certainly see from this experiment how important a translator IS. Because we form OUR ideas on what we think we see in the translation and how it mirrors our own beliefs. I am not sure I realized before what a difference it makes. One could project almost anything into it. I'm fascinated.
I liked what Dana said about the film on Classical Mythology (link now in the heading) and how it relates to us today: the cultural truth value.
I thought his definition of a myth was worth considering...a story about a person that we can resonate with, that gives us hope, that fills us with exultation......but I wonder....not all myths do that. I guess any lasting story could be a myth, and the reasons for it lasting may be diverse.
I agree, I thought he was talking about The Rudy Thing which was exactly what you say: we can identify with his hope and rejoice and if you keep on trying you can win ethos, but that was, I think, specific to the Rudy instance and others like it.
I think there are other cultural truth values which also resound in ancient and modern myth, such as the desire of a child to know his parents. Adopted children sometimes want to know who their birth parents are. How many movies have been made on this subject? Tim McGraw, the country singer did not know his father was Tug McGraw the baseball player, until a later age. People want to KNOW where they came from. Genealogy is BIG. And Phaethon at the end of this book of the Metamorphoses (breaking my own rule in talking about) wanted to know who his father was. That's just one cultural truth value we can believe in, and understand, (while not exulting every time), which spans millennia. But what of the negative ones? I thought that was an excellent question.
Can there be both positive and negative "truth values?" Why or why not? Can you think of any?
When the signal allows, like The Terminator, I'll be back. :)
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I happened to catch part of an interesting talk on fairy tales (BBC radio or NPR). It was saying that fairy tales are our oldest stories, some traceable back over 8000 years BC. Jack and the Beanstalk and Little Red Riding Hood were mentioned as two of the oldest, traceable thru many cultures. Then I fell asleep.......
Reminded me of The Uses of Enchantment, Bruno Bettleheim, that dates back to the 70s, but an interesting book, tracing the origins of fairy tales to common human psychological preoccupations. Maybe we have to look at Ovid's descriptions of ancient myths/fairy tales similarly.
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I think that many believe that "QUID EST VEITAS" could be taken as a negative. Multitudes have pondered that for centuries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_18:38
On change and Chaos: My wife and I found these lectures on The Great Courses that we watched a couple of years ago to be very fascinating and informative.
http://www.thegreatcourses.com/search/?q=chaos
It has been called the third great revolution of 20th-century physics, after relativity and quantum theory. But how can something called chaos theory help you understand an orderly world? What practical things might it be good for? What, in fact, is chaos theory? "Chaos theory," according to Dr. Steven Strogatz, Director of the Center for Applied Mathematics at Cornell University, "is the science of how things change." It describes the behavior of any system whose state evolves over time and whose behavior is sensitive to small changes in its initial conditions.
Two quotes on change that have always made ne think about the subject of change in my life.
“I have to see a thing a thousand times before I see it once.”
Thomas Wolfe , You can't go home again.
“No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.”
Heraclitus
On another topic:
More, lines27-29.
"The earth more dense attracted grosser parts and moved by gravity sank underneath"
I wonder just how much the ancients understood the scientific concept of gravity?
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http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35358487
Here's the link. Essentially I see no difference between a fairy tale and a myth, defining them both as stories that have existed over time because they answer some human need.
I don't see Ovid's description of the beginning of the world as any more valid than, for example, Rudyard Kipling's description of early times in the Just So Stories, (when the world was new and all), which are more fun to read.
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So, chase31, the choice of change as a theme is far from trivial. I wondered about their idea of gravity too. There are a lot of hints of present day scientific concepts in this work.
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Basic to Ovid's tale of Order from Chaos strikes me as a lesson in 'Power' - and the belief that at the time, man believed the gods were in control of their fortune, good or bad, based on man's walking the correct path honoring the values of the gods. Then reading this philosophical poem there is an unnamed greater power that controls the gods -
Interesting to me, there is much work carried out today finding the writings and life experiences of women philosophers - how much they were ignored by men during and after their lifetime we can only surmise - however, about 400 years before Ovid some of the work of Perictione II has been found - She lived and did philosophy in Greece as a "stranger". They were highly talented and educated women who emigrated from other city states to live in the great cultural center of Athens. These women, like their male counterparts as 'free strangers in Athens' had no protection under the law. Many established liaisons with male Athenian citizens in order to obtain such protection.
Perictione II is known as the author of a text named, On Wisdom, which begins:
"Mankind came into being and exists in order to contemplate the principle of the nature of the whole. The function of wisdom is to gain possession of this very thing, and to contemplate the purpose of the things that are."
Perictione II continues by saying that wisdom is to grasp what belong to all things....it seeks the basic principles...and so the wise person catches sight of god and all that is "separated from him in seried rank and order"
Then a huge factor that must have had an influence in Ovid's thinking and writing the Metamorphosis is Augustus - he came into power when Ovid was 16 years old - "...a self-proclaimed “Restorer of the Republic.” He believed in ancestral values such as monogamy, chastity, and piety (virtue)... he introduced a number of moral and political reforms in order to improve Roman society and formulate a new Roman government and lifestyle. The basis of each of these reforms was to revive traditional Roman religion in the state.
First, Augustus restored public monuments, especially the Temples of the Gods, as part of his quest for religious revival. He also commissioned the construction of monuments that would further promote and encourage traditional Roman religion. For example, the Ara Pacis Augustae contained symbols and scenes of religious rites and ceremonies, as well as Augustus and his “ideal” Roman family – all meant to inspire Roman pride. After Augustus generated renewed interest in religion, he sought to renew the practice of worship.
...Augustus revived the priesthoods and was appointed as pontifex maximus, which made him both the secular head of the Roman Empire and the religious leader. He reintroduced past ceremonies and festivals, including the Lustrum ceremony and the Lupercalia festival... Augustus established the Imperial Cult for worship of the Emperor as a god. The cult spread throughout the entire Empire in only a few decades, and was considered an important part of Roman religion." http://www.ancient.eu/article/116/
The power story in the poem's first sections suggests a power force separating and changing Chaos into Order - Chaos is as if an anathema to Order - there is no effort as Perictione II says, "to contemplate the principle of the nature of the whole," as Perictione's II says, opening her text On Wisdom - nor does Ovid share the concept in her other quote, "the wisdom to grasp what belong to all things...the wise person catches sight of god and all that is separated from him in seried rank and order".
From Ovid we learn that there is an unnamed power that separates by "rank and order" but does not see god in Chaos as he tells of how the earth, sea, mountains, trees etc. are separated to be 'controlled' by various gods and goddesses.
Agstustus wants order - not the order that will arrange itself but order without Chaos. The concept of Chaos has been given the role of something to fear, take control of, defame with words that will later include the word, Satan, who is supposed to rule 11 dark gods.
Our legal system is based on organizing good behavior from the bad, which is chaotic behavior. How long was medicine attempting to rid us of the bad before the realization that bad could be our most successful form of inoculation.
To see this drive for power as the answer to man's explanation for life written over 2000 years ago is not just a horrific philosophy but the loss of so much because of a lack of courage to look at Chaos and include Chaos as an equal favored god. Over the course of the human story how much human shame that freezes rather than empowers would have freed humanity to act on its full potential
Yes, it is mind boggling and a form of blame to imagine life with all the 'what ifs' - however, to realize as Dana you and chase31 suggest that the Metamorphosis is a myth and myths are similar to fairytales - Where I knew about Santa I did not recognize the Santa of power and that good versus bad that included Chaos as bad is very entrenched in our human story and this story is one more example of not honoring the whole - no wonder men have excluded women philosophers from their canon.
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HALCYON: that translation of the “Hear[3] Israel, y-h-v-h is our God; y-h-v-h is one.” That is only one translation. What it actually says it "eluchay ahad" (my transliteration, probably wrong) which could be translate one God, or God is one. The 4 letter acronym isn't used there.
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Cross fingers, it looks as if I am to be allowed 6 seconds on the internet, what a BOTHER this has been, so much for Uverse.
Meanwhile lots of great new thoughts!
Going back, however, too many good things to comment on.
Joak K: very aware of change. Interestingly, he sees it as constant.
Yes and isn't THAT strange? The are opposites, aren't they?
This is SUCH a good point! This is a pattern that seems to recur in history, where chaos is followed by dictatorship, bringing order but eventually problems. (as in Nazi Germany)
I'm glad you liked the film on Classical Mythology, and I agree we'll want to watch this thing for that.
Wonderful points, Howard! Ginny's "nam" mystery comes from the parenthetical in Ovid's second line: di, coeptis (nam vos mutastis et illas), which Lombardo translates as "Oh Gods, inspire my beginnings (for you changed them too). Could "the beginnings" changed by the gods be biographical, and refer to the changes in Ovid's life as he moved from his origins outside of Rome to the shores of the Black Sea?
That's close. The source (and I have reread 3 books to try to find it ...the salient pages, of course....which I can't find to save my life but did find the Anderson (no relation) resolution on the controversy over illas and illa I hope to bring here later when my Uverse will stay on.I think this one little example will serve to show the tremendous interest readers and scholars have taken in analyzing this poem for the last couple of thousand years, and they are all different.
All the other gods are named. Perhaps it means Ovid deliberately means to be vague. For instance, we have the appearance of man.
Does YOUR translation (Everybody) indicate who made man?
How does it handle that? Do you all have Prometheus at all? Where did the animals come from? The stars have been smothered (in Lombardo) and they come peeking out. We have a Titan appear in Lombardo and Prometheus molding human forms, as if in clay, as if a craftsman, and artist (like Ovid) performing the second artisan inspired creation in the poem. There are "other animals" when man gets there. Where did they come from? Does it matter?
Actually is there any order IN this creation? There does seem to be some ambivalence here as to who made man, doesn't it? What does your translation say and what did you understand this process to be in the poem?
Karen, that was spectacular. It really was. And perhaps that's the living modern embodiment of what Roger Travis means by a cultural truth value. You can see a type of chaos and a new form in your own life. That's just super.
Chase, that's a much more scientific and impressive take on the weight of the planet than I had, gravity! I have no idea what the ancients knew about gravity, that would make a great thing to look up! For some reason it never occurred to me when reading that..
Jonathan, I agree totally! Wonderful company to bounce ideas around with, snow or no snow. . I loved this: But I'm dazzled by your audacity...to tell the history of the world, from the beginning, in your inimitable style. What a progression from those charming little love elegies you used to write You do put your finger on it, every time. So his readers would be expecting an Elegiac poem, which he was famous for. These poems have a certain meter. This one doesn't have it. But is it an epic? Chaos maybe is what it is, very carefully planned chaos. Even in the meter. More on that later.
You did it for your own amusement. Now this translator has read the whole poem and is aware the behavior of certain gods is not quite what one would expect. In spades. I am interested in how he seems to see a line drawn to man's disadvantage so early in the Prologue.
Barbara, thank you for those different translations, aren't they something, and the definition of Chaos and the thoughts on it. That is SO interesting! And I was interested in your Santa thoughts and Dana's thoughts about fairy tales as myth.
Can you all think of a modern myth other than Rudy? And fairy tales? It wasn't so long ago that the New Yorker had an article in it which snarled at the building up in a movie of the "mythical career of Steve Jobs." You mention Santa, Barbara. Unlike you, tho who didn't see any power in him, to me Santa had all the power, didn't he? That's a good comparison to myth! He sees you when you're sleeping. He knows when you're awake. He knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake. AND he has the power to come down the chimney, fly in a sled with reindeer and bring you presents or a lump of coal. We could riff on this one and add Superman, Spider Man, Wonder Woman, Captain America, Bat Man, The Hulk...who else? What is that team of 4 which the kids like, one has flame, one...How about the Transformers?
I just realized there is a LOT of "change" and "metamorphosis" going on with Superman, Batman, the Hulk, and a lot more of them!
Can you all think of any modern myths about anything? The fairy tales alone and the Bettleheim and the book on how the Grimms brothers got them from old wives tales, literally, passed down for generations but not written down, all fabulous.
More....
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"from Ovid's Metamorphoses, which I believe was inspired from the Bible,"
We forget that the Old Testament was around then, although whether it was translated into Latin and how likely Ovid, a non-Jew was to have read it, I don't know. I'm guessing that Ovid's version of the creation was taken from some current source, and to him the idea of change was more important.
I'm interested in what the Romans knew about geography. We've already seen him describe the world as a sphere, later, iwe find it has five regions: the middle hot, the edges cold and in between temperate. I wonder if this is a result of the voyaging they had done, noticing it was hotter toward the South and colder toward the North, but didn't change much East or West.
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That is a wonderful question, Joan K. I am sure you all have seen the Peutinger Table, all 20 feet long of it, (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Peutingertabletmain.jpg) which in Mary Beard's new book she says may have been modeled on one that Augustus put up in Rome of the known world. Obviously this is a later copy. Actually this is a pretty good 5 minute film on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC_qEvXpCts (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC_qEvXpCts)
I'd love to know the answer to that one. They eventually covered a lot of territory,as we've all seen in the maps of the Roman Empire. What an interesting question. I hope somebody can find out and bring it here.
Halcyon, how interesting about Hebrew beliefs of the Old Testament. And Howard and Bellamarie also mentioned Genesis.
I can't say if Ovid read the Old Testament, or even knew anything about Jewish theology and nobody else can, either. I CAN say that just about everything mentioned and the way it's mentioned in Ovid's Creation story in the Metamorphoses can be, and has been, traced to many different theories by Greek scholars who wrote before him. Which he obviously knew. That's one reason why I hoped we could look at Homer and Hesiod and all the others and see what THEY thought to better appreciate what Ovid did with the same material so to speak. Makes one appreciate his genius.
There were women philosophers in ancient Greece, good point, Barbara, always a shock to learn , I think, because of their miserable treatment of women. But that's another story. :)
Marcus Tullius, what a beautiful post. I am so glad you decided to join in, your thoughts have enlivened and enriched the discussion.
I loved this:
The Metamorphosis is Ovid’s attempt, it seems to me, to enter the debate about the nature of the world in which there are competing and opposing forces at work all the time. There are forces that propel toward chaos and disorder – I am thinking of the laws of thermodynamics, and there are those that push for order and form – for example gravitational and biological forces
You and Barbara and others are saying " Change is the constant."
What's the opposite of constant? How can change BE constant? Aren't they opposites?
THIS is very astute and is something I really want to touch on when we get there: Was she still Io when she was the heifer? It seems like one can change and still remain essentially the same. After all, we all change throughout our lifetime, and yet remain the same individual even though our outward appearance undergoes dramatic changes. I think Ovid was touching on that idea.
Super points on the change/ constant but ARE we the same individual that we were as children? Has there been no change in any area at all? Are the things which are changing different from the things which are constant?
I just read a really startling theory on Io and this very thing, and it stunned me. As you've said it pertains to today, too. I hope we can look at it when we get to Io.
Just super conversation and research and thoughts on so many different levels on 88 lines of poetry. You've all outdone yourselves!
So what about Prometheus? Who in YOUR translation seems to have created man?
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JoanK.,
We forget that the Old Testament was around then, although whether it was translated into Latin and how likely Ovid, a non-Jew was to have read it, I don't know. I'm guessing that Ovid's version of the creation was taken from some current source, and to him the idea of change was more important.
I could not forget the Old Testament was around then, and I do believe there had to be some way Ovid knew of Genesis, because his creation is just too close to it to imagine he actually came up with it on his own in my humble opinion. As I was re reading Book One last night as I was falling off to sleep, I realized so much of this book aligns with Genesis. After doing a little Google search I am not alone in my theory.
http://sites.psu.edu/mil5246cams045/2015/10/02/metamorphoses-vs-the-bible/
Metamorphoses vs. The Bible
October 2, 2015 mil5246 2 Comments
There are many people who debate the similarities between Ovis’ Metamorphoses and the Bible’s genesis story. As both recount the tale of creation, it begs the question whether the similarities between these two works are based off of each other.
To dive into this, I’d like to first discuss the timeline. Ovid was born 43 BC and died 17 AD (courtesy of Wikipedia). Right here we can see the possibilities of this. This was a few years before the great fire in Rome during 64 AD where christianity started to be persecuted. Prior to that time period, the Jews were a strong influence in society. Based on these considerations, a conclusion can be drawn that it was technically feasible that Ovid’s work was at least partially inspired by Genesis. If we look at potential motivations, connections can also be seen. It is possible, that to gain more traction, Ovid used stories that the common people were aware of, such as the Noah and the Great Flood.
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In Ovid’s Metamorphoses, there are myths that have clear parallels to stories found in the Book of Genesis from the Bible; this indicates that Ovid and his audience were at least aware of the book of Genesis and/or Judaism which in turn influenced their own stories. Specifically, each text has a version of a flood that wipes out the human race. The flood is a specific event that each text shares and the similarities between the stories are not coincidental or inconsequential enough to be ignored.
From the New International Version of the Bible:
“The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time,” (Gen. 6.5) and “Every living thing that moved on the earth perished – birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind,” (Gen. 7.21) and “But Noah found favour in the eyes of the LORD…Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God,” (Gen. 6.8-9) and “But God remembered Noah…and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded…The water receded steadily from the earth,” (Gen. 8.1-3).
From Metamorphoses:
“But this new stock [of man], too, proved contemptuous of the gods, very greedy for slaughter, and passionate,” (159-61) and “Most living things are drowned outright. Those who have escaped the water slow starvation at last o’ercomes through lack of food,” (310-12) and “…Jove saw…that only one man…and that but one woman…[were] left, both innocent and both worshippers of God, he rent the clouds asunder…showed the land once more to the sky, and the heavens to the land. Then too the anger of the sea subsides…by that signal to recall the floods and streams,” (323-34).
The passages quoted above show the similarities in how the god figures felt toward mankind, how they destroyed life on Earth, how they found humans to spare from the flood, and how the humans influenced the god figures decisions to take the floodwaters away. Another similarity between the texts is that after the floodwaters receded the humans created/went to altars/shrines to pay their respects to the god figures. These examples show that Ovid and his audience had to have at least periphery knowledge of one story from the Bible. At most, Ovid and his audience felt the stories from the Bible had some importance or clout in order to adopt the themes into their own cultural mythology. This similarity of flood stories from the two texts is just one example, of possibly many, that shows the influence the Bible had on Ovid and the Roman people at large.
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http://sites.psu.edu/cjr5375cams045/2015/10/02/weekly-blog-post-4-floods-and-the-bibles-influence-on-metamorphoses/#more-119
These are just a couple of sites, I found many others that compare Ovid's Metamorphosis to Genesis.
I agree, to Ovid, change was important, thus the title of this book, Metamorphosis, but I also see the importance he has placed on the god of creation, on canon, morals, and religion. For me and I don't know why, I feel I am missing the importance of "chaos." Is it because of my translation? Change is indicative in the world, but change does not have to be seen as chaotic. Hmmm.....this is me scratching my head. ???
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Many cultures have creation myths and we know that Ovid had many sources for the Metamorposes. I suspect he was familiar with the Sumer creation myth and the Hindu and perhaps even Genesis. The interesting piece for me is not which came first, but the similarities in the myths. Ovid's rendering of the Creation myth is unique in that it springs from Roman mythology. It reflects what is accepted in Roman culture at this time. I am fascinated by how much was known about the earth and its geography at this time. The death of Octavian begins a period of growing chaos and decline in Roman power. Out of chaos change is born once again
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(https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/p/7/005/073/34e/18d07d5.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQCWQROde-mMYCW9uaEVYWNnu4CM3DeENUyOAyvB6nkCl5b5so8)(http://image.slidesharecdn.com/complexitylunchtimetalk-110919072334-phpapp01/95/an-introduction-to-complexity-theory-6-728.jpg?cb=1316417167)
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Yes, Mkaren - thanks for the reminder - there appears to be creation myths for every society on the globe.
Hindu creation myth - http://www.read-legends-and-myths.com/hindu-creation-myth.html
Germanic creation myth - http://www.read-legends-and-myths.com/hindu-creation-myth.html
Navajo creation myth - http://www.navajolegends.org/navajo-creation-story/
Polynesian creation myth - www.educationscotland.gov.uk/Images/PolynesianCreationstory_tcm4-730167.pdf
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What about modern myths?
If by ‘myth’ I mean a commonly held or believed story about a beginning, a creation story, in this age of ours, where reason and science instruct, no longer transmitted by word of mouth like that of the ancients, but by the written and recorded word, I would have to say that our new myths emerge from and are supported by the new understanding of ourselves and the world we live in. So may I propose that the new myths are now the creation stories as explained by scientific investigation of the material world. And there are lots of stories. We have the story of the beginning of everything: the Big Bang and the expansion of the universe. We have the story of the beginning of life on Earth. We have the story of extinctions, like that of the dinosaurs. We have the story of the origin of mankind and of Homo sapiens in particular. We have the story of the founding of new nations. One does not need to be a scientist to hold or to believe these stories. Most of us would not be able to narrate the details of them. That requires great study. We, the regular people, can only tell the bare outlines. We get the stories in simple, condensed, understandable forms from various sources, mostly schools, but also mass media like television, books, and magazines; no longer is there the need for the itinerant rhapsodes with their formidable memories of the long lost past.
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A note about change:
We see in Ovid things change. Chaos changes to something recognizable and something with form, versus unformed globs. I believe also when considering change, we need to account for cause. For nothing changes without a cause. I think Ovid recognized that. The gods were usually the cause of many changes. But are there other causes beside gods or God? It seems that with change, we humans seek causes. Isn't that natural for us? We wouldn't accept that something underwent a change without recognizing that a cause preceded and led to it. Aristotle proposed four causes for all changes in nature: material, formal, efficient, and final cause.
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I wanted to add one more thing.
Homer included several transformations in his Odyssey. Athena changed forms; Odysseus changed forms; some of his soldiers were changed into pigs.
Shakespeare also included transformations in one of his plays, from what I can remember. It was Twelfth Night. Not sure the reason was. Maybe for comedic effect.
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I think Marcus is right on in suggesting that contemporary theories of creation are new myths. I would also add political myths of progress, etc. If myth is a process by which we attempt to see or impose order on the reality of chaos, are we not the creators of order? Why do we need an exterior force to bring chaos into more managable perspectives? Quantum physics suggests that reality is in the eye of the beholder and has blurred the distinction between a wave and a particle. That is very exciting to me because the myths we embrace are themselves in the process of transformation as we grow and change.
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One of the things in the "Rudy Thing" video that struck me was the idea of "cultural truth values." The first thing that leapt to mind was the Roman idea of "mores," the shared beliefs about what it meant to be Roman and what a Roman should be. The second thing was that, when I (and I suppose most of us) were growing up during the Cold War, it seemed that we used to have something like that shared value system, and although we might have disagreed on various things, we could do so civilly because there was so much cultural agreement on other things. After the Civil Rights Movement and Viet Nam and Watergate and lots of other things, we no longer seem to share the same cultural truth values--there seem to be, if I may oversimplify, "red state" and "blue state" mores and mythologies. In Ovid's Rome, people would convene in houses to listen to recitations by the same group of poets, reinforcing their shared mores; when we were growing up, we all watched the same TV shows on three networks. Now nobody reads the same things, watches the same shows, listens to the same music. Where are we going to get our cultural truth values? Is "consumer choice" really the only value that we share?
I think hullwmr touched on this when he said, "I would also add political myths of progress, etc. If myth is a process by which we attempt to see or impose order on the reality of chaos, are we not the creators of order?" That's why this stuff matters--what kind of order are we going to create? And what if we can't agree about it, or about what our cultural truths are?
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Dana, thanks for reminding me of the Just So Stories. Yes, Kipling's fun.
"Before the High and Far-Off Times, O my Best Beloved, came the Time of the Very Beginnings; and that was in the days when the Eldest Magician was getting Things ready. "First he got the Earth ready; then he got the Sea ready; and then he told all the Animals that they could come out and play."
The importance of the Greek myths isn't so much a question of validity, but of how thoroughly they are woven into our Western culture, into our literature and thinking.
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Marcustullius--scientific theory as the modern myth. If one of the functions of myth is to make the world around us less threatening, does science do this for us?
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I think of science as more of a competing method of looking at the world to myth-making. Scientists don't make up stories to explain things, and most of them would very much resent being accused of doing so. And their findings aren't necessarily comforting--as anyone who saw last week's Nova, about the krill die-off that has essentially yanked the bottom of the food chain out from under many species of fish, whales and penguins that depend on it, can attest. Science can be very threatening indeed.
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I could be wrong but what I understood from Marcustullius' posts was our shrinking into a simple story the science that explains the universe and it is that shrunken story that is our current myths.
After reading last night Marcustullius' posts all of a sudden it hit me - the issue is not Order versus Chaos - Order is a system that came from Chaos - and after reading here last fall Darby Nelson's book For Love of Lakes we know how the earth was carved into the land mass we see today and how lakes and rivers were formed. While reading Darby Nelson, on PBS the documentary was aired explaining how all of our Flora through out the US all coming from the one state not affected by the ice age, Alabama. Again, we know that trees and flowers were not the whim of Antheia, goddess of flowers and flowery wreaths or Demeter, goddess of the harvest, the fertility of the earth, grains and the seasons or even, Satyresses, female rustic nature spirits.
It was so easy to get caught up in Ovid's story of Chaos and Control to overlook there are many systems in Chaos and separating into Order is simply one system - yes, it took a few more thousands of years but for instance, Britain's annual budget for coastal maintenance, repair and emergency services is not running red as it did all because of Fractal Geometry. A system more recently extracted from Chaos by Mandelbrot and his uncle while incarcerated in the Nazi concentration camps. Their original search was to explain and measure the action of a waterfalls that led to Britain's ability to measure accurately its coastline that include coves and rocky extensions.
So yes, the concept of reading this as a fairy tale - a myth - is right on - the concept of remembering how a butterfly in Brazil affects the weather in the US is another delightful story that can explain Edward Lorenz, of MIT
work on the chaotic behavior of a nonlinear system - a mouthful compared to a story of a butterfly - and so, regardless in historic time we are still sorting through Chaos and we simply started with Order, that as we learned earlier is natural to most bodies - humans simply added to it and adjusted the use of Order further than what was its natural inclination.
Now this unknown force that is called natural by some, the work of this force is gradually showing itself as computers allow more data and mathematics to analyze the universe then any time in history and where Ovid did not name the force some cultures have given this force the name, God.
Yes, I can see the whole now and can move along seeing what and how we value what we named.
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By simple definition of the word myth, we must keep in mind that Ovid as any other mythological writer's work is fictitious. They may in fact which I believe Ovid has done, take from a real source (the book of Genesis), but ultimately their work is not real. It is made up of falsehoods, supernaturals, and phenomenons.
Definition of Myth:
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=definition%20of%20myth
myth
miTH/Submit
noun
1. a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.
synonyms: folk tale, folk story, legend, tale, story, fable, saga, mythos, lore, folklore, mythology
"ancient Greek myths"
2. a widely held but false belief or idea.
Merriam - Webster Dictionary
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/myth
myth:
noun \ˈmith\
Simple Definition of myth
: an idea or story that is believed by many people but that is not true
: a story that was told in an ancient culture to explain a practice, belief, or natural occurrence
: such stories as a group
Full Definition of myth
1 a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon
b : parable, allegory
2 a : a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society <seduced by the American myth of individualism — Orde Coombs>
b : an unfounded or false notion
3: a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence
4: the whole body of myths
parable: a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle
allegory: a story in which the characters and events are symbols that stand for ideas about human life or for a political or historical situation
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Does YOUR translation (Everybody) indicate who made man?
How does it handle that? Do you all have Prometheus at all? Where did the animals come from? The stars have been smothered (in Lombardo) and they come peeking out. We have a Titan appear in Lombardo and Prometheus molding human forms, as if in clay, as if a craftsman, and artist (like Ovid) performing the second artisan inspired creation in the poem. There are "other animals" when man gets there. Where did they come from? Does it matter?
Actually is there any order IN this creation? There does seem to be some ambivalence here as to who made man, doesn't it? What does your translation say and what did you understand this process to be in the poem?
Here is a passage from the translation by Ian Johnston. In it, man was made when Prometheus mixed the seed of a god with river water:
Scarcely had he separated all things
within specific limits in this way,
when the stars, which had remained long hidden, 70
buried in thick mist, began to blaze forth
through the entire sky. And to make sure
no place would lack its forms of living things,
the stars and the forms of gods occupy
the floor of heaven, the waters yielded
to let glittering fish live there, the land
took in wild beasts, the gusting air took birds.
What was still missing was an animal
more spiritual than these, more capable
of higher thinking, which would be able
to dominate the others. Man was born—
either that creator of things, the source
of a better world, made him from god’s seed,
or the Earth, newly formed and divided 80
only recently from lofty aether
still held seeds related to the heavens,
which Prometheus, Iapetus’ son, mixed
with river water and made an image
of the gods who rule all things.* Other creatures
keep their heads bent and gaze upon the ground,
but he gave man a face which could look up
and ordered him to gaze into the sky
and, standing erect, raise his countenance
towards the stars. Thus, what had been crude earth
and formless, was transformed and then took on
the shapes of human life, unknown till then.
I heard a college professor say that the ancient Greeks did not place much emphasis in their myths on the creation of man. It did not seem important to them. They emphasized the creation of the world instead.
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If one of the functions of myth is to make the world around us less threatening, does science do this for us?
I don't know the answer to the question. Maybe someone will attempt it. It appears to me there are different kinds of myths. There are creation myths that tell the story of the creation. And there are other myths, or stories, most of which are in the Metamorphosis, which seem to be like morality stories. They tell what happens when somebody does something bad. Look at the passage with Lycaon. He was behaving very badly and the god came down and punished him, turning him into a wolf.
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Some really lovely lines in that quote aren't there...
the stars and the forms of gods occupy
the floor of heaven, the waters yielded
to let glittering fish live there, the land
took in wild beasts, the gusting air took birds.
and then
ordered him to gaze into the sky
and, standing erect, raise his countenance
towards the stars.
I wonder if 'ordered' is to command or arrange?
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In Lombardo, it's
He gave to humans an upturned face, and told them to lift
Their eyes to the stars.
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My translation by Allen Mandelbaum regarding the creation of man, says:
No sooner had he set all things within
defining limits than the stars, long hid
beneath the crushing darkness, could begin
to gleam throughout the heavens. That no region
be left without its share of living things,
stars and the forms of gods then occupied
the porch of heaven; and the waters shared
their dwelling with the gleaming fishes; earth recieved the beasts, and restless air, the birds.
An animal with higher intellect,
more noble, able__one to rule the rest;
such was the living thing the earth still lacked.
Then man was born. Either the Architect
of All, the author of the the universe.,
in order to beget a better world,
created man from seed divine__or else
Prometheus, son of Iapetus, made man
by mixing new-made earth with fresh rainwater
(for earth had only recently been set
apart from heaven, and earth still kept
seeds of the sky__remains of their shared birth);
and when he fashioned man, his mold recalled
the masters of all things, the gods. And while
all other animals are bent, head down,
and fix their gaze upon the ground, to man
he gave face that is held high; he had
man stand erect, his eyes upon the stars.
So was the earth, which until then had been
so rough and indistinct, transformed: it wore
a thing unknown before__the human force.
The words that leaped out at me in all of this was, "in order to beget a better world, created man from seed divine"
For me, Ovid is saying man was created from the divine seed, (of God). And I like how he says, in order to beget a better world. What good would creating all the earth, animals and nature be if man were not created in human form, to procreate and bring about more human life, that was to rule over all the animals.
marcustullis, He was behaving very badly and the god came down and punished him, turning him into a wolf.
I see Ovid's parallel to Adam and Eve's story here:
God knew when he created man, that sin would be a part of our nature, and punishment would be a form of teaching man to be more pleasing to God. One of the first things Adam and Eve did after being created was to sin. The constant in life is sin. It is when man learns from sin, and punishment, he is able to transform himself into a better person, hence....to beget a better world.
The "creation of man from clay" is a theme that recurs throughout world religions and mythologies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_of_man_from_clay
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Here's Lombardo on the creation of mankind:
Still missing was a creature finer than these,
With greater mind, one who could rule the rest;
Man was born, whether fashioned from immortal seed
By the Master Artisan who made this better world,
Or whether Earth, newly parted from Aether above
And still bearing some seeds of her cousin Sky,
Was mixed with rainwater by Titan Prometheus
And molded into the image of omnipotent gods.
And while other animals look on all fours at the ground
He gave to humans an upturned face, and told them to lift
Their eyes to the stars. And so Earth, just now barren,
A wilderness without form, was changed and made over,
Dressing herself in the unfamiliar figures of men.
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And here's Martin:
An animal more like the gods than these,
more intellectually capable
and able to control the other beasts,
had not as yet appeared: now man was born,
either because the framer of all things,
the fabricator of this better world,
created man out of his own divine
substance--or else because Prometheus
took up a clod (so lately broken off
from lofty aether that it still contained
some elements in common with its kin),
and mixing it with water, molded it
into the shape of gods, who govern all.
And even though all other animals
lean forward and look down toward the ground,
he gave to man a face that is uplifted,
and ordered him to stand erect and look
directly up into the vaulted heavens
and turn his countenance to meet the stars;
the earth, that was so lately rude and formless,
was changed by taking on the shapes of men.
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BabrStAubrey,
I wonder if 'ordered' is to command or arrange?
I think if you look at all the different translations, it is stating man was to look to the skies, rather than the ground like the animals. He is giving human life a more splendid view of life, separating them from animals. IMO
Various translations:
ordered him to gaze into the sky
to man
he gave face that is held high; he had
man stand erect, his eyes upon the stars.
he gave to man a face that is uplifted,
and ordered him to stand erect and look
directly up into the vaulted heavens
and turn his countenance to meet the stars;
He gave to humans an upturned face, and told them to lift
Their eyes to the stars.
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Yes, that seems clear.
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hmm looks like our translators are mixed - some suggesting it was a command to lift our faces and other it was arranged that we could and would lift our faces.
Ouch the bit that lasted for too many folks is "that was to rule over all the animals" - and "A wilderness without form" - where as this translation,
And so Earth, just now barren,
A wilderness without form, was changed and made over,
Dressing herself in the unfamiliar figures of men.
shows, instead of our hubris towards animals and the wilderness that for many they believe is their right, a wilderness changed and made over, dressing herself in the unfamiliar figures of men which does not say the man is doing the changing and making over but rather the wilderness "was changed and made over" when the wilderness "dressed herself in the unfamiliar figures of men".
We've read so much about our belief that we are superior rather than a part of the wilderness and the animal world. Susan Nance says it succinctly in her paper, "On Wild Animals, Hubris, and Redemption" when she says,
"We document in film and book the nature of wild animals, a conversation complicated by those animals’ frequent ability (while juveniles, at least) to accommodate human demands by surviving peacefully in captivity.
...stories of well-meaning people who take wild animals captive—most prominently elephants and lions—believing that only they can keep those animals safe and fulfilled. Where we have not humanized animals we have made them human pets. In each context, humans labor under profound, self-interested and emotional attachments to their nonhuman captives, providing a neat conclusion asserting that animals can indicate morality in humans by their tame response."
Susan continues in her paper, "...animals are domesticated becoming dependent upon the charity of humans and artificially separated from other animals of it kind, who could provide the separated animal with an appropriate life experience—" and asks without elaborating, what it would mean if "young humans were separated from other humans at an early age."
Her paper continues with how those animals we do not domesticate we capture and euthanize to 'tame' the wilderness to our liking.
These various translations allow me to see how we bring our values with us - if we value living as a part of, entwined in, blended, combined as one with the earth including its wilderness the words we choose will reflect that value and if we believe the wilderness is the chaos we must bring into order and therefore we have hubris over animals than that value will speak by our chose of words.
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Did Ovid make up that part about man's creation? Or did he get it from somewhere? What is Ovid trying to do? What is he trying to accomplish with that story? It seems unique.
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Yet another translation I found, which I actually like a lot.
Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
A creature of a more exalted kind
Was wanting yet, and then was Man design'd:
Conscious of thought, of more capacious breast,
For empire form'd, and fit to rule the rest:
Whether with particles of heav'nly fire
The God of Nature did his soul inspire,
Or Earth, but new divided from the sky,
And, pliant, still retain'd th' aetherial energy:
Which wise Prometheus temper'd into paste,
And, mixt with living streams, the godlike image cast.
Thus, while the mute creation downward bend
Their sight, and to their earthly mother tend,
Man looks aloft; and with erected eyes
Beholds his own hereditary skies.
From such rude principles our form began;
And earth was metamorphos'd into Man.
http://classics.mit.edu//Ovid/metam.1.first.html
BarbStAubrey, And so Earth, just now barren,
A wilderness without form, was changed and made over,
Dressing herself in the unfamiliar figures of men.
shows, instead of our hubris towards animals and the wilderness that for many they believe is their right, a wilderness changed and made over, dressing herself in the unfamiliar figures of men which does not say the man is doing the changing and making over but rather the wilderness "was changed and made over" when the wilderness "dressed herself in the unfamiliar figures of men"
And to go one step further....by this translation, so too was "earth was metamorphos'd into Man."
So man is exalted to all on earth, so it seems it is up to man to protect not only animals, but also, nature and the earth. Man was made, to bring order to the world, inspired by the God of nature.
marcustullis, In answer to your question, I believe Ovid was inspired by the book of Genesis, and turned it into a myth of creation. Not so unique in my opinion.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/QuattuorAetatesAureamC.jpg)
The Golden Age
Pietro Da Cortona (Barrettini)
(b. 1596, Cortona, d. 1669, Roma)
(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free. Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
For Your Consideration:
Week Two: Gods and men learn to interact January 26--?
First section: The Four Ages
Bk I:89-112 The Golden Age
Bk I:113-124 The Silver Age
Bk I:125-150 The Bronze Age
1. Have you heard other versions of the Four Ages? Where did Ovid get this story?
2. Why do you think the ages progress from better to worse instead of the other direction?
3. The Golden Age sounds wonderful, doesn't it? What would your idea of a "Golden Age" feature?
4. What is your favorite line from Ovid about the Golden Age?
5. What was it that turned the Golden Age into the Silver Age?
6. What is "Classical Mythology?" Do you have time to watch less than 10 minutes of Dr. Roger Travis of UCONN explain what "The Rudy Thing" is, so we can discuss it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY)
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
Thank you, Barb.
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Ah but then bellamarie that is only one myth of man's place in the world - and no one myth has presidence over another -
Just as the Bible is packed with analogy, so too is Ovid's myth and to have thought other creation myths are 'less than' is really assuming a superiority that is dangerous. Realizing that kind of thinking exists is humiliating for those who learned the stories of Jesus calling the little children or the parable of the vineyard or that He fasted for 40 days only surrounded by the wild animals and the angels. These stories taught us to be at one rather than at odds with differences as are the stories in the Old testament. Jesus was born among the animals, according to many in a hillside cave that historically would be a typical stable, rather than in a safe secure home with attending females.
These parables all show we are one - no species is superior to the other and the concept of power is just from our Western Christian leaders starting with Constantine, who was a Roman - We in the US live on land cared for by others before the white man and tribal myths are full of being brothers and sisters with the wilderness and the animals that we live among, as do Celtic myths and Germanic myths.
Joseph Campbell books - especially "Hero With A Thousand Faces" and his book "The Power of Myth" are great to read or better yet, the PBS Joseph Campbell series can be downloaded from Amazon. Powerful and eyeopening. Joseph Campbell worked in comparative mythology and comparative religion. Campbell believed that religion, in this case Christianity, starts in myth and in the Christian faith it arrives at the triune God revealed in the life, death, and physical resurrection of Jesus Christ.
It is so easy to follow the arrogance of our past and think that we are better than and are the natural species to control to our liking whatever is in our way. This story that Ovid tells is alluding to that kind of superiority - and we know others who attempted to capture the power of a unified Europe under Rome to justify their superiority.
Ovid is not only a Roman but he is living and writing during the time of Augustus when Rome was in a new space metamorphosing from its fall and the death of the Caesars, a chaotic lawless time, into a city of pride and determination and yes, full of hubris.
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My goodness what wonderful thoughts in here, you all have outdone yourselves. Wonderful stuff. It has literally taken me an hour to write this, my Uverse has gone insane,and I'm afraid I'm going to have to give up until it calms down. Blinking like a house afire.
MarcusTullius: Did Ovid make up that part about man's creation? Or did he get it from somewhere? What is Ovid trying to do? What is he trying to accomplish with that story? It seems unique.
That's a good question: what is he trying to accomplish? People have debated that for 2000 years. Nobody even knows what it IS.
He got his creation ideas from prior Greek thought from people like Plato, Aristotle, the Stoics, Leucippus and Democritus, Hesiod, Homer, Lucretius, Vergil and his atomistic cosmogony, He took their elements (which have been exhaustively identified), see William S. Anderson's Ovid Books 1-5, he's pretty much the definitive commentary, but he took this or that element, changed them, and did his own thing in his own way. So yes, it is unique and yes it's quite an artistic accomplishment, even down the the meter of the words. It's pretty amazing. I had hoped tonight I could put in a couple of the more spectacular things he did with meter because I think they make a stunning point. I hope I can stay on long enough.
And now we have Prometheus. Who is Prometheus? Why did he suddenly appear? Isn't he a little out of order here in the expected creation myths? He's an artist, a craftsman, he's creating man out of clay, he's another craftsman like Ovid. We will want to watch and see what happens to artists in this piece. But where did he come from?
Thank you all for putting in all those different translations, aren't they something?
In reading Roxania's post about cultural truth values she said, After the Civil Rights Movement and Viet Nam and Watergate and lots of other things, we no longer seem to share the same cultural truth values--there seem to be, if I may oversimplify, "red state" and "blue state" mores and mythologies.
The minute I saw that I thought of one of our current myths espoused by Ted Cruz in the SC debate the other day: "New York Values."
When asked what they were, he smiled and said he thought everybody in the room knows what they are.
I don't. But I do know that voicing myths about one section of the country over another is divisive and ridiculous.
What are some more of our modern myths?
How about George Washington chopped down a cherry tree? He didn't. The Mount Vernon website, Washington's Home, does a huge article on "The Cherry Tree Myth."
How about George Washington (hate to pick on him a devotee of the Roman Cincinnatus, but it's not his fault that we need to make myths about our heroes): threw a coin across the ...what..Delaware?...... Potomac? Didn't happen.
It wasn't too long ago that several articles appeared about the myths we construct about history and historical figures, the Smithsonian did a big one by an historian on the myths we construct and believe which are not true. It's not "revisionist history," it never WAS in the first place. What IS true about them, is we seem to need to construct them. They do espouse a truth value: something we believe in, something we can support. The funny thing about them is that even when they are proved incorrect, we still struggle to make explanations for them or keep on believing them anyway. We need them more than they need us.
And there are so MANY!
How about the myth of the celebrity? Why do we think somebody who makes his money pretending to be somebody else is better than we are, smarter, worth listening to? They have wonderful memories, I'll give them that. We enjoy them in film but ? We seem to be creating an entire culture around celebrity. Everybody wants their 15 minutes no matter what they have to do for it.
It can be anything, it doesn't have to be a written story. Marie Antonette did not say "let them eat cake."
Barbara mentions Joseph Campbell and his Hero with a Thousand Faces. When George Lucas read that, the idea was so unique to him, he created Star Wars.
Patton and his "universal soldier." The myth that some parts of the country are smarter or less smart than others. It's virtually endless.
But it's important for what it says about us. And what we need as a value. And all cultures have them.
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Here's a nice quote from Anderson on what Ovid is doing from his book:
" For Ovid (who in this respect inherited the ideas of Greek Poets from Euripides' age and more particularly from the Hellenistic era), the myths were opportune stories that could be given contemporary relevance, by elaboration of the events leading up to the metamorphosis. The form into which the human being had been changed was the given part of the story, along with a few details about the individual's early existence. By, so to speak, fleshing out the story, by exploring the emotions and psychological problems of the characters, by considering the situation in terms of Roman morality and social values, by inspecting the involvement of the gods, by weighing the reason for metamorphosis and the feelings of that human spirit inside the changing and changed body, Ovid gave new form and meaning to the myth."
And that's exactly what he said he would do.
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BarbStAubrey,
These parables all show we are one - no species is superior to the other and the concept of power is just from our Western Christian leaders starting with Constantine, who was a Roman.
"What does it mean that God gave humanity dominion over the animals?"
God has sovereign power over His creation and has delegated the authority to mankind to have dominion over the animals (Genesis 1:26). David reinforces this truth: “You made [mankind] rulers over the works of your hands; you put everything under their feet” (Psalm 8:6). Humanity was to “subdue” the earth (Genesis 1:28)—we were to hold a position of command over it; we were placed in a superior role and were to exercise control over the earth and its flora and fauna. Mankind was set up as the ruler of this world. All else was subjugated to him.
Man is to be the steward of the earth; he is to bring the material world and all of its varied elements into the service of God and the good of mankind. The command to “subdue” the earth is actually part of God’s blessing on mankind. Created in the image of God, Adam and Eve were to use the earth’s vast resources in the service of both God and themselves. It would only make sense for God to decree this, since only humans were created in God’s image.
When God gave humanity dominion over the animals, it was in order to care for, tend to, and use those animals to their fullest potential in a just manner. At the time that God gave mankind dominion over the animals, humans did not eat meat (Genesis 1:29). Eating meat did not begin until after the Flood (Genesis 9:1–3), and it was at that time that animals started to fear humans. However, although God changed the way we interact with animals, in that they are now “meat,” we still bear a responsibility to treat animals humanely. Human “rule” over animals does not mean we have the right to mistreat or misuse those animals.
We must fulfill our duty to manage the earth wisely until that time when the wolf shall lie down with the lamb in the kingdom of Christ (Isaiah 11:6).
http://www.gotquestions.org/dominion-over-animals.html
sub·due
səbˈd(y)o͞o/Submit
verb
overcome, quieten, or bring under control
So, yes I stand by my theory that Ovid through the inspiration of the Bible, and the Bible, both are showing, man was to bring order, and protection to animals, nature and the earth.
Ginny, MarcusTullius: Did Ovid make up that part about man's creation? Or did he get it from somewhere? What is Ovid trying to do? What is he trying to accomplish with that story? It seems unique.
That's a good question: what is he trying to accomplish? People have debated that for 2000 years. Nobody even knows what it IS.
What we as individuals will take from this, is that we all come from different belief systems depending on our upbringing, faith, and personal experiences, and yes what we have read to influence us, yet we live in a world that has rules, laws, and a constitution to bring some kind of fairness and order for all to exist. I see Ovid is trying to bring this about in this poem. We are not the first and won't be the last to debate what "it" is, but as Ginny pointed out, it has been going on for 2000 years, and still nothing is concrete. There is NO concrete answer, and I don't believe there is meant to be, because my belief system and faith leads me to conclude, it's as I have been taught, only God has all the answers. Many scholars, have thought to have the answers, yet then others will come along and disprove their theories, just as we will do here. But oh how fun and interesting it is to discuss "it." ;)
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Roxania,
After the Civil Rights Movement and Viet Nam and Watergate and lots of other things, we no longer seem to share the same cultural truth values--there seem to be, if I may oversimplify, "red state" and "blue state" mores and mythologies.
I so agree with this, and does it not seem that the people all over the world are in a confused, chaotic state today?
They are looking for order, they are looking for leaders to abide by the law, rules and constitution that has given them something solid to live by. When there is no order, you have chaos. I hear on a daily basis people say, God is being taken out of the equation and that is why we are in the state we are in.
Ginny, you mention the myth of celebrities today. Celebrities seem to be in more control, and their lack of values and morals, and glorifying violence in their movies, have brought about a power, and yet a lessening of order. We look for false idols to worship in making celebrities, athletes, musicians, etc., our role models. We have become a nation lost, and as chaotic as Ovid's poem. He began writing this poem around 2 A.D. and yet he says, "may the song I sing be seamless as its way weaves from the world's beginning to our day."
Talk about unique, I think Ovid had a master plan, I think he knew that this would be a continuous cycle, order and chaos, sin and redemption. Makes me wonder if the breath of the Holy Spirit was breathed inside him, giving him this foresight, making him a bit prophetic, a bit like Isaiah in the Old Testament. Although, I am sure Ovid would have preferred being compared to someone more like Virgil.
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Please remember - Rome had conquered the Jews, destroyed their Temples, kept soldiers in their towns, enslaved and came down hard on the Jews from 63BC to 130 something AD so that no one in Rome would risk studying the Torah Bibles and copying from them. A poet at the time would not risk the displeasure of the Roman Ruler by acknowledging the writings of a conquered people whose beliefs were ignored in Rome in favor of their own gods.
The better research finding the back story for Ovid's creation myth would be as Ginny suggested, in the writings of Greeks and Romans who lived before or even during Ovid's lifetime. We may see the similarities to the writings in Genesis however, at the time even if Ovid was familiar with Genesis, very doubtful, he would not risk banishment by Augustus using the premise.
As to a translation of the Bible saying it was OK for man to feel superior to animals and nature versus, the many examples in the Bible and the life of Jesus that show animals and nature to be on the same level as man is obviously a personal belief in or not a hubris relationship with nature.
Now off to find my Joseph Campbell books and see what he has to say about myth - aha here is a link to a nice short conversation he had about this very subject with Bill Moyers - https://vimeo.com/62378811
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That's an interesting clip, Barb. did you notice his summing up sentence?
"Myths are clues to the spiritual potentiality of the human life."
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So mankind has been created; what happens to him next? Let's talk about the four ages of man:
The Golden Age lines 89-112
The Silver Age lines 113-124
The Bronze Age lines 125-150
(The Iron Age is lumped in with the bronze.)
We can still finish up any important issues here too.
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BarbStAubrey,
We may see the similarities to the writings in Genesis however, at the time even if Ovid was familiar with Genesis, very doubtful, he would not risk banishment by Augustus using the premise.
Interesting point you make, because that is indeed exactly what did happen to Ovid, he was banished in AD 8 from Rome to Tomis (now Constanţa, Romania) by decree of the emperor Augustus, where he died in AD 17 or 18.
Moral Argument
Ovid specifically mentions two reasons for offending Augustus:
Perdiderint cum me duo crimina, carmen et error,
alterius facti culpa silenda mihi:
nam non sum tanti, renovem ut tua vulnera, Caesar, (Tr.2.207-209)
Though two crimes, a poem and a blunder have brought me ruin,
of my fault in the one I must keep silent,
for my worth is not such that I may reopen your wounds, Caesar,
By Ovid’s own admission there is more to his exile than the carmen; there is also the error. Many scholars have argued that this is an example of hendiadys, yet Ovid distinguishes between the reason he can talk about and the one he cannot, so hendiadys can be ruled out. Whatever was the prime cause for exile, it was a convenient time for Augustus to remove Ovid from a Rome troubled by political unrest.
http://web.colby.edu/ovid-censorship/exile/rome-sick-ovids-exile/
Shortly after the publication of these two poems, Ovid found himself in great peril. In A.D. 8, Augustus exiled Ovid and banned his books from the libraries of Rome. The reason for Ovid’s exile is not entirely clear, but one can surmise that Augustus took offense at Ovid’s lecherous poetry. Poems on the art of seduction would have hardly pleased Augustus, who sought to institute moral reform. Moreover, Augustus must have been especially incensed when he exiled his own daughter, Julia, for adultery.
However, despite all his pleas to Augustus and later to Tiberius, he would never see Rome again. Ovid died in A.D. 16 or 17.
http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/metamorphoses/context.html
Excited to move on to the four ages of man!
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Don't the translations indicate that Ovid was not taking a position on who created man? He was saying that man was created either by "the Master Artisan"or by Prometheus fooling around with his chemistry set (mixing Earth still bearing some seeds of Sky with river water). Either/or leaves the choice to the reader. The Group's wonderful exchanges so far on man's creation in the Metamorphoses prove that the choice is informed by the reader's (or the listener's) predisposition. That must have been as true in Ovid's day as it is in ours. Knowing the desire of Augustus to reestablish the old Roman religion, it would have undermined his work for him to make the choice, for The Metamorphoses are about the interaction of the Olympians and mankind, however and by whomever created.
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Yes, hoswshap, the translations, and there are many, leaves it up the the reader to determine what he or she takes from it. As scholars and others have over the years, it still can be debated. That is what makes it an excellent discussion. There are no rights and wrongs, I don't think there can be any conclusive, concrete, finite, findings/endings here. I agree, Ovid does not seem to have made up his own mind as to who the creator is. That remains a mystery. I suppose when you give an opinion or theory, you alone have some reason for it, and can support it in some way, or not. Sometimes a thought is just that...... a thought. :)
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Agreed, Howshap and Bellamarie; Ovid is definitely leaving it up to us.
I like "Prometheus fooling around with his chemistry set".
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PatH.,
I like "Prometheus fooling around with his chemistry set".
OMG this totally made me laugh out loud!!! Me too, it brought a little comedy & confusion into the poem. :) :)
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Since scholars today still have no clue as to why Ovid was banished - only a phrase he wrote later... carmen et error — "a poem and a mistake" and since his work or his possessions were not confiscated, nor was he stripped of his citizenship he believed that Augustus knew it was a mistake. No one knows what constituted the mistake and he continued to write living near the Black Sea.
And now Ovid writes of the transformation of society - I wonder if folks like Thomas More, Sir Francis Bacon, Henry Neville or even Margaret Cavendish with her "Blazing World" read Ovid and simply renamed their view of a Golden Age, Utopia? Ovid talks of a time period where as, the 16th century authors speak of a place and where 20th century Huxley goes right the heart of the matter starting with the Hatchery and making perfect the embryo.
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Was this gauntlet laid down by Ovid that politics has run with ever since - to re-create a Golden Age -
In Letters from an American Farmer, J. Hector St. John de Crèvecoeur in 1782. A quote, “This great metamorphosis ... extinguishes all his European prejudices;
he forgets that mechanism of subordination, that servility of disposition which poverty had taught him.” Fleeing from crowded and contentious domains ruled by exploitative aristocrats and kings, immigrants flocked to “this great American asylum,” where they felt liberated by the abundant and fertile land of a vast continent. At last, thousands of poor men could own their own farms instead of working for a landlord or employer. “The instant I enter on my own land, the bright idea of property, of exclusive right, of independence exalt my mind,”
Freedom and Safety to have agency over your own life seems to be a basic component of a Golden time - Ovid says, "There was no fear or punishment: there were no threatening words to be read, fixed in bronze, no crowd of suppliants fearing the judge’s face:" Where as, de Crèvecoeur replaces "Judge's face" with "exploitative aristocrats and kings"
We read of the settlers who after crossing the Great Plains and the Rocky mountains view a piece of land that appears idyllic that they call the Golden Valley - seems Ovid's poem expresses what became the Idyll for many.
Sot of remembering learning when we read other Greek plays and poems, isn't Ovid's Golden Age acknowledging and coinciding with a time when the gods inhabited the earth before man?
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Barb:
And now Ovid writes of the transformation of society - I wonder if folks like Thomas More, Sir Francis Bacon, Henry Neville or even Margaret Cavendish with her "Blazing World" read Ovid and simply renamed their view of a Golden Age, Utopia? Ovid talks of a time period where as, the 16th century authors speak of a place and where 20th century Huxley goes right the heart of the matter starting with the Hatchery and making perfect the embryo.
Seems likely that many of them did. Interesting distinction--a time for Ovid, a place for the later writers.
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Interesting - there appears to be two Golden Ages - the one Ovid speaks to that is wrapped in myth and the other a historical time between 500BC and 300BC.
Wikipedia says, "The "Golden Age" denotes a period of primordial peace, harmony, stability, and prosperity. During this age peace and harmony prevailed, people did not have to work to feed themselves, for the earth provided food in abundance. They lived to a very old age with a youthful appearance, eventually dying peacefully, with spirits living on as "guardians". Plato in Cratylus, recounts the golden race of humans who came first. He clarifies that Hesiod did not mean literally made of gold, but good and noble.
There are analogous concepts in the religious and philosophical traditions of the South Asian subcontinent. For example, the Vedic or ancient Hindu culture saw history as cyclical, composed of yugas with alternating Dark and Golden Ages. The Kali yuga (Iron Age), Dwapara yuga (Bronze Age), Treta yuga (Silver Age) and Satya yuga (Golden Age) correspond to the four Greek ages. Similar beliefs occur in the ancient Middle East and throughout the ancient world, as well.
In classical Greek mythology the Golden Age was presided over by the leading Titan Cronus. In some version of the myth Astraea also ruled."
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Astrea is around here too, as is Cronos, using his Roman name Saturn.
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Some new questions are up for the Golden Age, to be followed soon by the other ages. Let's go.
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Oh great, we're going to the Golden Age! Barbara is right, too, others wrote about this subject before Ovid did.
Hesiod wrote of the generations of humanity: gold, silver, bronze, heroic, and iron. Later poets picked it up, especially Atratus in the 3rd century. Vergil treated it in all 3 of his works. To quote Anderson" Essentially it embraces the idea that people degenerated from the ideal race that was created to enjoy a perfect world. " The Romans took it over but called it ages..
I had never heard of the Four Ages until I started taking Latin. Did you all know about it? The Golden Age sounds wonderful, doesn't it? Is it similar to Utopia? (Obviously I know nothing of Thomas More, ) but it sounds like something on Star Trek. I am sure the Enterprise went to something very like a Golden Age. What do you think of how it's described?
I wonder what it would take for us, 2000 years later to describe what we would think of as a perfect world? A Golden Age. One without political phone calls at night? hahahaha
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Beautifully said, Howard!
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Good. On to the golden age.
(I don't think Ovid has much to do with god and christianity as we have been brought up to think of these concepts.)
I think the golden age reaches back to that magical time in early childhood when our caretakers are all powerful and benevolent gods to us and our needs are met effortlessly ...if we have "average expectable parents" of-course....never to be repeated again, but always there, at the back of our minds, or under the surface in our unconscious, perfect and gone forever....till we reach heaven at the other end?....another golden age?
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Right on, Dana, I agree with all you said. Could you imagine living in the Golden Age as an adult? Could it really work?
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The golden age seems like a world without mankind, without the things man do and make. It had no laws, no punishment, no threatening words written, no fear of being judged by other men, no ditches, no felling of trees, no war trumpets, no swords, no helmets, no soldiers, no farming. It was an age without the mark of man. Or maybe men were angels.
It seems funny, or counterintuitive. The golden age was an age without laws and without punishment. Apparently, there was no need for it. Peace and harmony were everywhere.
In the iron age, though, they had laws and all kinds of punishments. Yet, the world was in a bad state. In this age, every form of crime broke out. There was cheating, treachery, deceit, viciousness and criminal cravings. Man had put his mark on the land.
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Reading the four ages, I am reminded of this quote from the Federalist No. 51, by James Madison:
But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.
Could Ovid have been thinking the same thing?
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hmm sounds almost like Ovid's gods are Madison's angles.
Dana for those who did not experience an ideal childhood, I think even as children they imagine a golden age type existence - seems to me Daddy Warbucks was Little Orphan Annie's key to her imagined Golden age.
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Trying to catch up on all the posts. One quick comment on Barb's post,
They lived to a very old age with a youthful appearance, eventually dying peacefully, with spirits living on as "guardians".
With tecnological and medical advances, haven't we been trying to get back to that? Not sure about the guardians bit, but maybe the future of brain/computer interface, robotics and cloning could count. I'm a big SciFi fan. ;D
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marcustullius:
Could Ovid have been thinking the same thing?
Seems likely. The men must have been angelic, since they had no laws.
It's a good thing they didn't need governing, when you remember which god was in charge at the time.
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Why does the Golden Age end? It seems that it is no fault of man; it is rebellion among the gods. Yet. Saturn's overthrow and the take over by Jupiter seems to begin man's downward spiral toward the Iron Age which will ultimately lead to the near destruction of mankind. Hmmm. What is Ovid saying here? In my 21st century mind, I scream "that is not fair." Is this modern me, or is Ovid suggesting the same thing?
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The Golden Age reminds me of the Garden of Eden before sin. I especially like the very first sentence:
That first age was an age of gold: no law
and no compulsion then were needed; all
kept faith; the righteous way was freely willed,
There were no penalties that might instill
dark fears, no menaces inscribed upon bronze tablets; trembling crowds did not implore
the clemency of judges; but, secure,
men lived without defenders.
This verse just sounds so serene, and perfect, people living in unity. No menaces inscribed upon bronze tablets, sounds like a time where the Ten Commandments were not needed. This verse also makes me think of a baby inside a mother's womb, before it enters the world of sin and strife. Sort of like the gestational stage of life. Angelic indeed.
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Good question, Mkaren. Everybody, what IS Ovid suggesting?
Saturn seems like a surprising god to be in charge of peace and goodness. He's the one who gained power by castrating his father, and kept it by eating his children when they were born. Finally his wife got fed up with this and hid the next child (Jupiter), giving Saturn a rock to eat instead. Jupiter released his siblings, unharmed by digestion, and overthrew his father.
Nice family.
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Bellamarie, could you imagine yourself living in the Golden Age?
Come to think of it, maybe that's why the Golden Age didn't last; it's the protected ideal of the unborn child, which doesn't last.
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Touching on Ginny's comment about the change of races to ages, it seems that whether we use the word 'race' or 'age', we still are referring to mankind. Maybe if we refer to the four races, we refer specifically to inherent qualities of mankind. If we say the four races, we mean the four different kinds of men. If we use ages, it seems less focused on man, and includes not only the man but the environment that he creates around him. So ages may seem like a broader description. We still use it in science. We refer to the stone age, the bronze age, the iron age, etc. Today we have the information age, the computer age, and so on. They seem to describe more the environments or the tools that man created.
On the question of what Ovid was suggesting by the inclusion of the ages in the work, could it be that he felt contemporary man was hopelessly corrupt? Ovid may have been calling attention to his fellow man to look at himself critically. Virgil and the elites of Roman society may pretend that Romans were virtuous and good, but in reality, it was the opposite. Outside of elite circles, life was not pretty. It could have been a cloaked criticism of the current state of affairs, without bringing the wrath of Augustus on his head.
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I was actually thinking that I would not have liked living in the Golden Age. Not that strife, war, and hard work are always pleasurable, but having little to do, perfect weather, constant peace sound, forgive me, boring. Maybe this is because I have always been in an imperfect world. I once asked Sister Josephine, my religion teacher, if heaven was as boring as it sounded. She didn't love the question by answering that in the presence of God I would be totally satisfied.
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At first reading, the Golden Age sounded to me like an agrarian, Eden-like dream. In a Roman history class I took several years ago, the prof made the point that Romans considered the agrarian lifestyle to be the highest ideal. Cincinnatus renounces the trappings of power to return to the land, and making a living via business was somehow suspect--the assumption was that you lived by ripping off your fellow citizens. So in that sense, this passage enshrines a shared cultural value--the idea that a life close to the land and its bounty was an ideal.
But on the other hand, if any of us actually had to live in the Golden Age, I suspect that we'd find it infantilizing and unbearably boring. Mankind doesn't have to worry its collective little heads about a thing. All would be provided--we wouldn't have to think about anything, invent better ways to do things, or have the opportunity to grow or to test ourselves. There is no mention of learning of any kind. Is it really a good thing that "Mortal men knew no shores but their own"?
Worst of all, from my point of view, there doesn't seem to be any knitting or quilting!
Mkaren557, I just now saw your post, and I obviously agree. Boredom is one thing. I remember being told about how God was supposed to fix everything so that even if our nearest and dearest were in Hell, we would be so thrilled to be in heaven that we wouldn't even care. I concluded early on that, if my family were in hell and I didn't care, whoever that was sitting in heaven would not really be me, but some kind of horrible android duplicate. Why, yes, I have issues with religion--why do you ask?
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PatH.,
Bellamarie, could you imagine yourself living in the Golden Age?
Come to think of it, maybe that's why the Golden Age didn't last; it's the protected ideal of the unborn child, which doesn't last.
I'm kind of thinking that Golden Age life could be considered Heaven, so yes, I could imagine myself there one day. According to the teaching and faith, there will be everlasting life in Heaven. But here on earth, NO, it could not last forever, it was surely not God's intent, or why else would Christians be trying to live our lives in order to one day enter Heaven? I don't think it was intended to last forever because man was not made to perfection, rather with sin, and with sin comes strife.
marcustullis, I love your entire thought process in your post! Although you intimate that Ovid may have been trying to fool Augustus with this statement: "It could have been a cloaked criticism of the current state of affairs, without bringing the wrath of Augustus on his head." As we learned, he did not get away with it, if that was possibly his intent. Augustus exiled him from Rome and banned all his books from the libraries. As much as Ovid wanted to return to Rome, he was never allowed back in. Sort of sad I think.
MKaren, I once asked Sister Josephine, my religion teacher, if heaven was as boring as it sounded. She didn't love the question by answering that in the presence of God I would be totally satisfied.
I concluded early on that, if my family were in hell and I didn't care, whoever that was sitting in heaven would not really be me, but some kind of horrible android duplicate. Why, yes, I have issues with religion--why do you ask?
After living in this world and all the pain, war, and division..... I would welcome a place more like Heaven. I could never imagine my family ever being in Hell. Religion is a personal belief and everyone is entitled to their own. I like how Sister Josephine answered your question. ;) hee hee
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Well said, all. The different possible reactions well expressed.
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Speaking for myself, I certainly believe that the ideal (Golden Age) lifestyle would be agrarian. As a young boy I used to spend all the time I could on my Great Grandparents dairy farm in Pa. I also loved the times I spent on my Great Uncle and Aunt's farm in South Ga. I remember those vacations as being absolutely idyllic.
The thing I always remember the most of my relatives that were farmers both in the north and south was their calm. They never seemed to get angry. But, perhaps those are just chosen memories.
Could the end of the Golden Age the the Gotterdammerung? The Gods and/or other inhabitants leaving the agrarian life for the strife of "civilization" in the new found cities?
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I took a class once on the pastoral in literature. Going to the country to be restored and returning to the city seemed to be a reaction to too much civilization: railroads, factories, filth, etc., by-products of the Industrial Revolution. Living in Maine I watched Bostonians, New Yorkers, looking for peace on the Maine Coast, even if it meant less excitement or activity other than walking beaches. I agree that A Golden Age would be naturally involve agricultural activities. So many people moved to Maine in the 1970s and bought land and farms. Many soon discovered that the agrarian life is no Golden Age. They either tried to change the country to be more like the city, e.g. cell towers, highways, entertainment centers, or returned to the city.
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All this bucolic wonder and no word of Orcus - there was a temple to Orcus on the Palatine Hill which says Orcus, god of the underworld, was part of the army of gods/angles fluttering about during this Golden Age.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/Bomarzo_parco_mostri_orco.jpg/220px-Bomarzo_parco_mostri_orco.jpg)
Saving Grace for Ovid - it seems Orcus' stamping grounds was in rural areas; he had no official cult in the cities, which allowed for him to survive in the countryside long after the more prevalent gods were no longer worshiped.
The name came to be used for demons and other underworld monsters, particularly in Italian where orco refers to a kind of monster found in fairy-tales that feeds on human flesh.
He survived as a folk figure into the Middle Ages, and aspects of his worship were transmuted into the wild man festivals held in rural parts of Europe through modern times.
What do you think - Is the Burning Man Festival that draws over 70,000 to the Nevada desert reaching for a Golden Age (there is no reports of crime and creativity abounds) while celebrating the last vestiges of Orcus?
And yes, this white Dhanu durg (Indian Desert Fortress) was built for the festival.
(http://galleries.burningman.org/filestore/2/2/4/6/8_e7094e86a074bd8/22468pre_wm_55d8686a5f56284.jpg?v=2013-09-12+19%3A58%3A29)(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/08/27/article-0-20D57B2F00000578-504_470x423.jpg)(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/08/27/article-0-20D577D000000578-247_964x616.jpg)(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/08/27/article-0-20D5773C00000578-705_964x630.jpg)(http://galleries.burningman.org/filestore/3/0/7/5/6_fec780fa4a5d0b8/30756_alt_2295_807481e03420f12.jpg?v=2014-11-20+15%3A01%3A18)(http://galleries.burningman.org/filestore/7/0/9/2/4_366128d41a727c3/70924_alt_2846_acab7f5b53e8853.jpg?v=2014-11-20+15%3A19%3A32)
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/QuattuorAetatesIron.jpg)
The Age of Iron
Pietro Da Cortona (Barrettini)
(b. 1596, Cortona, d. 1669, Roma)
(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free. Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
For Your Consideration:
Week Two: Gods and men learn to interact January 26--?
First section: The Four Ages
Bk I:89-112 The Golden Age
Bk I:113-124 The Silver Age
Bk I:125-150 The Bronze Age
1. Have you heard other versions of the Four Ages? Where did Ovid get this story?
2. Why do you think the ages progress from better to worse instead of the other direction?
3. The Golden Age sounds wonderful, doesn't it? What would your idea of a "Golden Age" feature?
4. What is your favorite line from Ovid about the Golden Age?
5. What was it that turned the Golden Age into the Silver Age?
6. What is "Classical Mythology?" Do you have time to watch less than 10 minutes of Dr. Roger Travis of UCONN explain what "The Rudy Thing" is, so we can discuss it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY)
Second Section: Giants and Lycaon
Bk I:151-176 The giants
Bk I:177-198 Jupiter threatens to destroy humankind
Bk I: 199-243 Lycaon is turned into a wolf
1. What are the Giants? Why is this chapter there? Does it accomplish anything?
2. We now meet the Pantheon of Gods for the first time. The imagery here is spectacular. What line or lines particularly struck you in the writing about their conference?
3. A direct reference is made to Augustus for the first time in this poem. Who is he being likened to? Why?
4. What would the Romans have seen as Lycaon’s real offense?
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
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Goodness. I never heard of Orcus. He sure looks ready to feed on human flesh.
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“If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need.”
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Chase - wonderful quote - for me I must add one more thing - I need music -
Given the music during Cicero's time I can see why it would not be as important - it was essentially one soprano voice in a simple melody based on a different scale system than our ears enjoy today and then the accompanying voices are like the drone sound of a bag pipe.
But my ears are drawn to the sounds that grew during the 10th century and after and so a garden and a library and either an instrument or even an old record player.
Interesting James Avery, a beloved Jewelry maker who works in silver and gold - seldom any jewels and whose studio is in what we call the Hill Country that on the eastern edge Austin is perched. He started making jewelry almost exclusively using christian symbols - his sons are now running the business and he has a new ring that is the four seasons made in silver
(http://jamesavery.scene7.com/is/image/JamesAvery/RG-812-SS-SIZE?hei=400&wid=350&op_sharpen=1&size=400.0,350.0&xmpembed=1)
The four seasons and Cicero's advise for a garden seem to fit this ring don't they.
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I don't know if anyone else has been thinking of this, but it just occurred to me. It is the similarity between these two words: metamorphoses and metaphor. Are they Greek derivatives or Latin? Are they related to each other in both etymology and meaning? It appears so. Wasn't Ovid using metaphorical devices in this work? When reading the Metamorphoses, I am always looking for metaphorical meanings to the stories and not focus too much on the literal. Is it coincidental that the title informs us that the work is about transformations, and the method employed throughout is the use of metaphor, that is, transformation of one set of symbols onto another set of symbols, or transformations of the meanings? Are there transformations occurring within transformations? Are others reading it like that?
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Barb:
I need music.
Me too; I'd rather do without the garden than music, but I'd better have some source other than my own playing, or it would get pitiful pretty fast.
How much is known about Roman music? I know that with the Greek, although they have some scores, they don't even know which way is up, which direction is the higher note.
That's a gorgeous ring.
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Wow, Marcus, no, that hadn't occurred to me, but it seems likely. My expert advisor (an old Webster's Collegiate Dictionary) says that both words are of Greek origin.
"Are there transformations occurring within transformations?" I'm sure there are. Look at his first four lines, where he says he's writing about transformations, and then says that he himself--his beginnings (or his art or his life, depending on the translation) is/are a transformation.
I'm beginning to appreciate that Ovid was a pretty tricksy fellow, and I'm just hoping I can see some of what he's doing.
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"I'm beginning to appreciate that Ovid was a pretty tricksy fellow, and I'm just hoping I can see some of what he's doing."
I feel that way too. I'm hoping GINNY can help us with some of his tricks.
Didn't some mention of these ages show up in Homer? I don't know if used in the same way.
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hmm metamorphoses and metaphor - food for thought as we read - sure sound reasonable. We could look for any change in the metaphor in addition to the metaphor describing change.
In this from Kline - "...food that grew without cultivation, they collected mountain strawberries and the fruit of the strawberry tree, wild cherries, blackberries clinging to the tough brambles, and acorns fallen from Jupiter’s spreading oak-tree.
All the fruit and berries are collected and the berry clings to the tough brambles - where as, the acorn has fallen from an oak-tree that belongs to Jupiter - the fruit is not aligned with any god or goddess however the acorns are aligned with Jupiter, suggesting Jupiter is the focus, saying Jupiter and his oak-tree is the energy of the Golden Age. And as poetry goes there are devises to move the story along - this sure appears to be a devise telling us to be on the lookout for Jupiter and maybe even oak-trees - great... thanks Marcus...
Further - In Greek and Roman mythology, Dryads (also called Hamadryads) were nymphs who lived in trees and perished when their trees died or were cut down. To the Greeks, Romans, Celts, Slavs and Teutonic tribes the oak was foremost amongst venerated trees, and in each case associated with their supreme god, oak being sacred to Zeus, Jupiter, Dagda, Perun and Thor, respectively.
OK so Ovid is also saying Jupiter is the supreme god of the Golden Age.
Pat, All the western ancient music up till about the 9th century music used only one voice that carried the melody. After the 9th century music, called Plainchant used a second voice with the same melody as first voice, usually an octave higher - not till the 11th century do we have voices independent of each other but still, the drone sound made by several voices backing the melody.
During this entire time the scales are not the major and minor we know today - The scales were named by the Greeks - there are 7 and if you have a piano nearby you can create the sound- just play the scales with no black notes - use only the white keys - so if you start on A you do not accommodate the sharps or flats of an A major scale - just start on A and play to G on the white keys - that is the sound of a mixolydian mode - the sounds we often hear is the Dorian mode and the Aeolian mode that sounds like a natural minor scale.
It takes a bit of counting to know where 'do' (sounds like 'doe') lies in this mixolydian mode (not scale but mode) - the folk music of the Appalachian Mountains was brought by settlers in the sixteenth and seventeenth century that was older traditional music in Europe built on modes and sung with one voice - The Dulcimer has 3 and in some cases 4 strings and only one carries the tune while the others are played as a drone. Do not know enough about the ancient harp to know if it only carried the melody one string plucked at a time or if there was any drone affect in addition to the one note.
I know the explanation sounds like a lot of nonsense if you are not familiar with how music is constructed - if you have any knowledge, this was a simple explanation attempting to describe the sounds.
Here is a young woman playing an Appalachian Dulcimer using the old technique with the drone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8nnPrGSUBs
During the time of the Greeks till at least the 7th or 8th century each mode was associated with a certain human experience and feeling. Ionian was for ecstasy, joy, and serenity; Dorian with vigilance, anticipation, and interest; Phrygian with terror, fear, and apprehension.
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JoanK.,
Didn't some mention of these ages show up in Homer?
Mythology - The Five Ages of Man According to Hesiod
Even the ancient Greek poets, creating works a couple of thousand years ago, looked back longingly to simpler, more idyllic days.
One of our best examples of this in fact comes from such an ancient Greek poet. Hesiod composed a remarkable poem called the Works and Days. In this piece, Hesiod codified his version of the Ages of Man, which he divided into five distinct periods, each of which was populated by a specific race.
1. The Golden Age
2. The Silver Age
3. The Bronze Age
4. The Age of Heroes
5. The Age of Iron
http://www.mythography.com/myth/mythology-five-ages-of-man-according-to-hesiod/
The first extant account of the successive ages of humanity comes from the Greek poet Hesiod's Works and Days (lines 109–201)
The Roman poet Ovid (1st century BC – 1st century AD) tells a similar myth of Four Ages in Book 1.89–150 of the Metamorphoses. His account is similar to Hesiod's with the exception that he omits the Heroic Age.
These mythological ages are sometimes associated with historical timelines. In the chronology of Saint Jerome the Golden Age lasts ca. 1710 to 1674 BC, the Silver Age 1674 to 1628 BC, the Bronze Age 1628 to 1472 BC, the Heroic Age 1460 to 1103 BC, while Hesiod's Iron Age was considered as still ongoing by Saint Jerome in the 4th century AD.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man
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Barb, Thanks for the music info. I rather like the mixolydian mode.
I don't think the acorns mean that Jupiter is the focus, more likely Ovid wasn't bothering to think through anachronisms.
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Chase,
“If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need.”
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
I like Cicero's quote, but I am going to need some kind of sustenance with the garden and books. I love silence, so the sounds of nature will be my music.
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Bellamarie, we may have set a record for simultaneous posting--2 seconds.
That's useful information; I wonder why Ovid left out the Age of Heroes.
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And we came close again. I love silence too, but I also love music, but doled out when I can listen carefully and tease out what it's saying to me.
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Not to be argumentative, but has anyone ever went to a camp ground where people go to "commute with nature"? It seems they all must have their "music". Boom boxes, TV, and every other form of electronic gadget screaming and screeching. You cannot ever hear a robin chirping, a honey bee buzzing or the wind rustling through the leaves.
Didn't Beethoven prove that silence can be the sweetest and most sublime music of all in the opening of his 5th symphony?
But I am a terrible curmudgeon, had I lived in the Golden Age, I would have been yelling at everyone to get off my lawn.
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'I wonder why Ovid left out the Age of Heroes.' The same question ran through my mind, Pat. Was it perhaps because he felt that ground had been thoroughly covered by Vergil and Homer? Or, perhaps there were no heroes for Ovid.
But what an amazing poem. Thanks to all your wonderful posts I see Ovid's work as another vast Pacific as seen by Cortez and his men on that 'peak in Darien', in the Keat's sonnet.
As for the 'Ages' that are treated, The Golden, The Silver, The Bronze, and The Iron, yes, perhaps we do personally experience them all in our lifetimes. Childhood certainly can be seen as golden. (Of such is the kingdom of Heaven. There is considerable Hebrew myth in the poem.) I have no doubt of being in the iron age at present myself...I see and feel a lot of rust. The rest of it doesn't bother me. And besides, Ovid has bigger fish to fry. Isn't The Metamorphoses intended to reflect Roman society?
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Yes, I think he reflected Roman society if for no other reason than he was Roman and even if he traveled he brought with him his life experiences in Rome - He did know of but no word he visited Spain nor does it sound like he visited India, Arabia or even Sicily much less Egypt in North Africa - however, I have always thought any author that makes it on the list of Classic literature, so that for generations their work is read, they must have been able to write so that every generation can see an analogy or metaphor to their life therefore, we can relate to a metamorphose in history as readers can see change in their lifetime and a reader can contemplate their own personal metamorphoses.
Change could easily be my middle name as I bet we all have lived through great change. As to living a Golden Age - no clear memory - it makes sense I had my time swaddled in a cocooned life -
We justify what was our life experience and few of us would swap our lives for the life of another. I think I am too driven to grow and learn to have been happy in the Golden age as described by Ovid - I would even have problems settling into a Silver age.
But then, I wonder if I am fooling myself because I like order and am annoyed with anyone who walks away from their responsibilities. My curiosity is always active which breaks a regime of order. I also prefer a whole slew of characteristics that fit both the Golden and Silver age. Not anxious to ponder on all this so I will take it as a story that reaches the yearning nature within most of us.
I wonder if the metamorphoses of Iron is rust or steel?
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Chase it appears you and Ovid would together enjoy the chirping of birds in the Golden Age - although, he wrote a poem about a talking bird so I guess that means even he appreciated the company of sound.
The Parakeet is the oldest caged bird known in Europe, and was kept by ancient Romans. Ovid wrote an Elegy to a dead Parrot that from the description of the bird, green with a red bill, it is believed the bird was a Parakeet and not a Parrot.
Book II Elegy VI: The Death of Corinna’s Pet Parrot - Translated by A. S. Kline
Parrot, the mimic, the winged one from India’s Orient,
is dead – Go, birds, in a flock and follow him to the grave!
Go, pious feathered ones, beat your breasts with your wings
and mark your delicate cheeks with hard talons:
tear out your shaggy plumage, instead of hair, in mourning:
sound out your songs with long piping!
Philomela , mourning the crime of the Thracian tyrant,
the years of your mourning are complete:
divert your lament to the death of a rare bird –
Itys is a great but ancient reason for grief.
All who balance in flight in the flowing air,
and you, above others, his friend the turtle-dove, grieve!
All your lives you were in perfect concord,
and held firm in your faithfulness to the end.
What the youth from Phocis was to Orestes of Argos,
while she could be, Parrot, turtle-dove was to you.
What worth now your loyalty, your rare form and colour,
the clever way you altered the sound of your voice,
what joy in the pleasure given you by our mistress? –
Unhappy one, glory of birds, you’re certainly dead!
You could dim emeralds matched to your fragile feathers,
wearing a beak dyed scarlet spotted with saffron.
No bird on earth could better copy a voice –
or reply so well with words in a lisping tone!
You were snatched by Envy – you who never made war:
you were garrulous and a lover of gentle peace.
Behold, quails live fighting amongst themselves:
perhaps that’s why they frequently reach old age.
Your food was little, compared with your love of talking
you could never free your beak much for eating.
Nuts were his diet, and poppy-seed made him sleep,
and he drove away thirst with simple draughts of water.
Gluttonous vultures may live and kites, tracing spirals
in air, and jackdaws, informants of rain to come:
and the raven detested by armed Minerva lives too –
he whose strength can last out nine generations:
but that loquacious mimic of the human voice,
Parrot, the gift from the end of the earth, is dead!
The best are always taken first by greedy hands:
the worse make up a full span of years.
Thersites saw Protesilaus’s sad funeral,
and Hector was ashes while his brothers lived.
Why recall the pious prayers of my frightened girl for you –
prayers that a stormy south wind blew out to sea?
The seventh dawn came with nothing there beyond,
and Fate held an empty spool of thread for you.
Yet still the words from his listless beak astonished:
dying his tongue cried: ‘Corinna, farewell!’
A grove of dark holm oaks leafs beneath an Elysian slope,
the damp earth green with everlasting grass.
If you can believe it, they say there’s a place there
for pious birds, from which ominous ones are barred.
There innocuous swans browse far and wide
and the phoenix lives there, unique immortal bird:
There Juno’s peacock displays his tail-feathers,
and the dove lovingly bills and coos.
Parrot gaining a place among those trees
translates the pious birds in his own words.
A tumulus holds his bones – a tumulus fitting his size –
whose little stone carries lines appropriate for him:
‘His grave holds one who pleased his mistress:
his speech to me was cleverer than other birds’.
Another translation, by May
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/ovid/lboo/lboo28.htm
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I've been pondering The Golden Age. It seems to me the humans living in The Golden Age must have been very robotic, like the Stepford Wives. Without fear and sadness how can one ever experience joy and happiness? Perhaps the gods did create humans for their own amusement.
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Didn't Beethoven prove that silence can be the sweetest and most sublime music of all in the opening of his 5th symphony?
Yes, and how to handle that opening none-note is the despair of conductors.
I have no doubt of being in the iron age at present myself...I see and feel a lot of rust.
Ha ha. But if we can believe the picture in the heading, rust will be the least of our problems. We'll have to avoid getting assassinated.
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It's all going to get a lot worse for mankind before it gets better again. Let's go quickly through silver, bronze and iron, so we can tackle the gods' displeasure.
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Barb:
In Greek and Roman mythology, Dryads (also called Hamadryads) were nymphs who lived in trees and perished when their trees died or were cut down.
Maybe that's why Ovid makes such a big deal about cutting down trees to make into ships?
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So, Jupiter takes over, and changes things, and mankind starts to turn evil. Why does man change? Is it the result of the harder life he now lives? Or in spite of it?
And isn't it ironic that man didn't have gold in the Golden Age? When he gets it, in the Iron Age, it's the source of a lot of evil.
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When Jupiter takes over, he shortens spring creating ancient "climate change." I would imagine that farming became harder and less dependable. Then you have a situation of some having more than others. Enter greed and jealousy.
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So, not just because life was harder, but because it was more uncertain.
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This "and man stopped crouching in crude caverns", from the silver age.
I find this fascinating. Could Ovid have been aware of the Lascaux Cave paintings and understood they were from the very distant past?
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My Opinion - all vices, aggressive behavior, the 'seven deadly sins', narcissism, control issues, etc. stem from how we handle uncertainty.
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Would not have seen the connection before reading this book... Harry Sidebottom is starting a new series, Throne of Caesars and Book One out last week is entitled. Iron and Rust: Throne of the Caesars: Book 1
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Just chirping in to say that these thoughts struck me as I read all of the fabulous thoughts here, especially:
"I'm beginning to appreciate that Ovid was a pretty tricksy fellow, and I'm just hoping I can see some of what he's doing."
I really love the way you all together ARE seeing things in this poem. I am so impressed with you all. I am not sure I would have seen it myself.
I feel that way too. I'm hoping GINNY can help us with some of his tricks. I hope she can too but it might have to be Saturday hahhaa SWAMPED but you all are doing a fabulous job. Some of the stuff might not be interesting.
Are there transformations occurring within transformations? Yes, even in the meter and form and words he's using for the poem, even there.
'I wonder why Ovid left out the Age of Heroes.' The same question ran through my mind, Pat. Was it perhaps because he felt that ground had been thoroughly covered by Vergil and Homer? Or, perhaps there were no heroes for Ovid.
What an astute comment, love it.
Isn't The Metamorphoses intended to reflect Roman society?
Does it? Another very astute comment. If it does then how? Some people think this is a satire. What on earth IS it?
Here's what I did for the other night and never got to post. This MAY not be of any interest at all but it does address SOME of what you're saying:
If we could go back in a time machine and go back to 11 B.C. or thereabouts, what would it be like? You're an ancient Roman and you are so looking forward to the next book your favorite author writes, just like we do today. You finally get your hands on it and you can't wait to open it.
Put yourself in their shoes. Here you are with your favorite writer in 2016...say John Grisham's newest one. You've heard so much about it. You open the pages eagerly and he's written it in haiku! Or he's written it in Jack and Jill went up the Hill rhyme.....What IS this? You are puzzled. You may want your money back. What is going ON? You try to persevere but it seems crazy.
Now we know how the ancient Romans felt when reading the Metamorphoses for the first time. The Romans, when they were not listening to the poems being read, and could get a MS, read very slowly. They had to read slowly because there were no spaces between the words. All words were in caps. No punctuation. They read by moving their finger slowly across the line, they read out loud, sounding out each word, at about the speed of a 3rd grader which is amazing when you consider what they were reading.
So they noticed everything. The little things that we flash over, they lingered on. They enjoyed the words unfolding. It's kind of like (to mix metaphors) the difference in looking at your back yard, or getting down on your hands and knees and looking at the grass, or getting a magnifying glass and looking and finally looking through a microscope at the world within.
This next part may not interest many but I personally find it fascinating. Ovid had been an elegiac poet. He wrote Elegiac distich or couplets. These appeared in rigid meter. You may not know much about meter but you have heard it. If you say Jack and Jill went up the hill you can hear it. That's called a four foot line, the stresses Jack Jill up and Hill make it 4 feet.
Elegiac poetry started with a dactylic hexameter line (6 feet) followed by a pentameter line (5 feet). Ovid started the Metamorphoses with hexameter but instead of going to his normal pentameter he continues in Hexameter. What's going on? But look, has he misspelled words? What's going on with the words?
There's a word in the 2nd line: (nam vos mutastis et illa)(illas originally)
What is mutastis? There's no such word. It should be mutavistis, Perfect tense . It's normal to squeeze Latin verbs (this is called syncopated form) into compacted forms to fit meter, or to slide one slap into the next one (elision) but not the 2nd person plural. Ovid's poem itself is showing metamorphoses taking place in its own beginnings. It's shape shifting before our eyes.
Sure draws attention to that parenthetical bit, doesn't it? There are those who think this parenthetical phrase starting with "nam" (for) indicates that Ovid here before appealing to the gods, inserts himself, inserts a parenthetical explanation of why he addresses them, they are working for his benefit, and he's the focus, not them. He is the creator. Just like DNix and Karen thought initially: hubris.
They have manifested their transforming power in the past over poetic beginnings, his own and those of other poets.
That little word illa at the end of the mutastis line has been argued over for 2000 years. For that length of time everybody has assumed illas which it was originally in the MS. (because the ancient MS agreed tho some Medieval scholars tried to change it) refers to formas. Now you note it's rare to see it in any text because it's now been discovered that the pronoun illa (s) should refer to the word the parentheses interrupted, coeptis, rendering the meaning those beginnings also rather than those forms also. Imagine something accepted for 2000 years transforming itself in our modern age. Ovid was right, he's having continuity through change.
OK so two hexameter lines, is it an Epic then? Well there's no hero. Epics start with heroes, unless they are a special type which this does not fall into, and not with creation stories, but with nouns which tell the principal topic or theme. Ovid starts with a preposition followed by an adjective, making us wait, tantalizing the reader, (who, you remember is reading very slowly). The "gods" are invoked, another strange thing because they are nameless. So it's a new form just like he said and to us reading English translations it almost means nothing, we don't SEE anything original. But if you read the Latin you can see it. He'll have spondees for feet! Not dactylic hexameter. It's like suddenly hearing a big drum: boom boom boom. He can have a row of them. The Romans's heads would have been spinning but I bet they thrilled to it. It's new, it's different, and exciting.
So is it a take on Vergil's Aeneid, then, a non heroic Epic with a twist? If we knew that Ovid deliberately turned around Vergil's meter and did it backwards, would that tell us anything? (There are people who actually have counted every foot in all 15 books). They have found that Ovid preferred the dactyl while Vergil preferred the spondee. In all 8 of Vergil's books he averages a ratio of 20 spondees to 12 dactyls.
Ovid shows a ratio of 20 dactyls to 12 spondees. It's almost a stunning mirror reversal. It cannot be by accident: dactylic hexameter is hard to do in Latin, it's more common to Greek verse. It was done on purpose. And literally these types of things go on and on and ON all through the poem. Under the microscope it's an entirely new world.
But I think Latin is that way, anyway. These are just a couple of things I thought you might like to know so as to appreciate the mechanics more while YOU are already figuring it out for yourselves and very well too. It has a LOT of layers. I like the technical ones, so I thought I'd mention them for your interest.
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I feel, life got more hectic for man because like Adam and Eve, they just could not resist temptation. How often do we see life seeming in a perfect state, and it is not enough. We want more, with that need and desire for more, we become selfish, greedy, we stop caring about others and instead begin gathering and harvesting for ourselves. Man/woman is at his/her best when doing for others with nothing expected in return. It calls to mind my lesson plan about the Beatitudes and works of Mercy, last evening with my third grade CCD children,
Matthew 25:40 "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, In as much as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”
Barb mentions the seven deadly sins, each of these sins are self inflicted, thinking only of oneself, and not what is for the greater good of man. Again, man was created in the image of God, but not perfect. We have been taught man was born with the original sin, so it is in our nature to sin. More hard work, more strife and stress could be handled if man were willing to be less selfish and more willing to work with each other.
Ovid on the Iron age:
What bestowed its name upon the last age was hard iron.
And this, the worst of ages, suddenly
earth saw the flight of faith and modesty
and truth__and in their place came snares and fraud,
deceit and force and sacrilegious love
of gain.
And then.....
Not only did men ask of earth its wealth,
its harvest crops and foods that nourish us,
they also delved into the bowels of earth:
there they began to dig for what was hid
deep underground beside the shades of Styx:
the treasures that spur men to sacrilege.
Man has only himself to blame. In this age of iron, man has indeed turned himself into hard iron. Lost the ability to care for others, lost their faith and truth, as Ovid points out. I see greed and power has taken over.
It remains the ruins of today as in Ovid's prologue so pointed..... weaves from the world's beginning to our day.
I have to mention once again, I see Ovid as prophetic, he had insight as did Isaiah.
Chase, I can not fail to comment again, how much I truly loved your Cicero quote, and many a days I spend in the Spring, Summer and Fall seasons lying in my hammock in my backyard, with book in hand, admiring my beautiful flower gardens, and swaying back and forth listening to the sounds of the birds who come to eat from our feeder. Now that for me comes to mind Sir Thomas More's 'Libellus vere aureus, nec minus salutaris quam festivus, de optimo Reipublicae statu, deque nova Insula Utopia.
A quote from his book I especially like is:
"The toleration of all other religious ideas is enshrined in a universal prayer all the Utopians recite.
“ ...but, if they are mistaken, and if there is either a better government, or a religion more acceptable to God, they implore His goodness to let them know it."
I think this is what was lacking in the ages following the Golden age.
Ginny, We were posting at the same time....something I seem to do often. I just have to say, thank you for your intelligent explanation, and I am still shaking my head in wonderment! I did read some of this prior, and it then and still does leave me a bit confused, but I admire your knowledge and welcome it!!
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Time stood still during the golden age. There was no metamorphoses occurring at all during the golden age. The earth was free and untouched. It was always springtime.
Not until the silver age and after that metamorphoses began. The seasons appeared:
A Silver Age then followed,...
Jupiter shortened the previous springtime
and split each year into different seasons,
with winter, summer, changeable autumn,
and short-lived spring.
I agree with everything Jonathan said about why Ovid didn’t include the heroic ages in his work. I don’t think Ovid had too much of a high regard for mankind, particularly after reading the iron age.
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marcustullis,
I don’t think Ovid had too much of a high regard for mankind, particularly after reading the iron age.
Interesting observation, but it does make me wonder if Ovid had the insight into man's human nature.
A Silver Age then followed,...
Jupiter shortened the previous springtime
and split each year into different seasons,
with winter, summer, changeable autumn,
and short-lived spring.
So, if it weren't for Jupiter, all would have remained in harmony. Some never know when they have it so good. Is this the trickster humor Ovid is throwing in? :) :P
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After reading your post Ginny the thought that popped in was - I wonder just how many Romans read the work of Ovid - there was no printing press so every book would be hand written - was there a cadre of folks handwriting many copies? - Later monks did that kind of work but during the time of Ovid??? And slaves would have to be taught so that does not seam feasible. And then what would a book look like? I'm thinking more in terms of roles of paper or parchment - Duh - here we go - a site for 7th graders ahum - http://fascinatinghistory.blogspot.com/2005/07/books-in-ancient-rome.html
Which gets to the choice of meter - thanks for the rundown - as I understand Greek poetry was sung and this choice of meter helped to remember the words - I just did a bit of research and learned that Roman poetry was no longer sung but it was still dependent on the oral tradition - what I did not know is that only after epic poems were no longer sung, it was the Roman poets who established the rules for hexameter so that the use of dactylic hexameter take on a particular Roman characteristic.
The use of Dactylic Hexameter facilitates both memory and delivery in the oral tradition and it became the usual meter for epic poems - Longfellow, in the nineteenth century wrote the epic Evangeline in dactylic hexameters. Another new bit I did not know - the Roman poets known for using Dactylic Hexameter are from the Silver Age
I am imagining that folks go to some public place to hear the poems - I wonder just how many roles were made of a poem - do we know if any of the original roles are still with us or were they destroyed over time?
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Ginny, those facts about word tricks and meter are so cool. Why am I unsurprised that Ovid is playing tricks inside tricks on us?
And it never would have occurred to me how hard it was just to read a book to yourself.
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here from the Smithsonian site is the work they did to finally read the scrolls buried after Vesuvius...
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ancient-scrolls-blackened-vesuvius-are-readable-last-herculaneum-papyri-180953950/?no-ist
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oh ho - this is the imagination of English artist Sir Lawrence Alma-Tadema in 1885 of A Reading from Homer
(https://41.media.tumblr.com/7c1c7e16d70b72e71ffc695c250dff95/tumblr_o1om0tvOhX1qia38so1_1280.jpg)
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It's time to move on, and watch everything really go downhill. I've added the next section to the heading, only on this page, and I'll get some questions up shortly.
I've put up the headings and line numbers from the Kline online version, since we all have that; unfortunately my two paperbacks divide things up two other ways, with different line numbers. You want to go through the scene where Lycaon is turned into a wolf, and just 2-3 lines more, in which Jupiter says now he's really fed up.
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Wonderful! It's going to get exciting now!
On books and bookstores and libraries of the ancient world, we can hear from Ovid himself on the first Roman library for the public put up in 28 B.C., "All that the learned minds of ancient or of modern authors have produced lies there open for the readers to consult." (see below)
Barbara: I am imagining that folks go to some public place to hear the poems - I wonder just how many roles were made of a poem - do we know if any of the original roles are still with us or were they destroyed over time?
We actually do have a history of pitiful fragments (which are a miracle in themselves, considering their age) . Supplies of papyrus were short, the books went to animal hides, and the monks for instance wrote over the original pagan (and Christian) writings when more "important" things to them came along. "Paper" was scarce. Hides can be scraped and used again, that's what vellum is. I myself have a page from an illuminated manuscript and you can clearly see the "hide" side and the other.
When one text is scraped off and another put over it, it's called a Palimpsest. Here is the larger writing of Cicero's De Republica, dating from the 4th century, while the smaller writing is from a selection of St. Augustine on the Psalms, dating from the 7th century….Notice that capital letters are beginning to start new thoughts, and there is no attempt to leave spaces between words in sentences. This has been photographed under ultraviolet and infrared light to see the two different scripts.
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Palimpsest2.jpg)
Of course we're all familiar with the famous ancient libraries, both private and public, such as the Library of Alexandria, in Egypt, which was burned in Julius Caesar's time. It was the "thing" to have a private collection or library of books such as at the Villa of the Papyri, (supposedly owned by Julius Caesar's father in law) (and we remember Julius Caesar died in 44 B.C.) buried in the eruption of Vesuvius, which I think Barbara put a link to, which has 1,800 scrolls (or books, mostly Greek) recovered to date (not counting the ones burned for firewood when they were thought to be lumps of coal). Julius Caesar wanted to make a public Library but it was Augustus who carried it out in 28 B.C. (see below).
Here's a quote, the second of which features our own Ovid on the subject: Aside from the public archives of official documents (such as those in the Tabularium), there were no public libraries in Rome before the first century BC. Julius Caesar intended to establish one, and even commissioned Varro to gather books for it, but was assassinated before his plan could be realized. In 39 BC, several collections, including those of Sulla and Varro, were consolidated by Asinius Pollio, who founded the first public library in Rome, thereby, says Pliny, making "works of genius the property of the public." Asinius also was the first to place bronze busts in the library "in honour of those whose immortal spirits speak to us," the only contemporary figure of which was Varro.
The real impetus for the public library, however, came from Augustus, who established the Bibliotheca Apollinis Palatini on the Palatine adjacent to the Temple of Apollo, both of which were dedicated in 28 BC. Ovid writes of it, "All that the learned minds of ancient or of modern authors have produced lies there open for the readers to consult." This was the first of many public libraries in ancient Rome. This from Penelope: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/bibliotheca/bibliotheca.html
It was formerly thought that only about 15 percent of the total Roman population could read, and you have to consider what that population consisted OF, leaving literacy and power in the hands of a few wealthy families, but those numbers are now in serious reversal. Obviously putting up a poster for an election in Pompeii would have been useless if nobody could read it, and there are signs that all degrees of men and trades were literate also by graffiti in Pompeii and the mention of trades (we fish mongers support XXX." Not much use to put up a library if nobody can read. But the "home library" was a thing of great importance to the Romans, it marked one as an educated, refined man in a world of barbarians. On the other hand the great library of Pergamum was said to have contained over 200,000 volumes and this in the 1st century B.C.
And yes there were bookstores, too, as the empire progressed. It's known that there were 3 copies of Ovid's Metamorphoses before his exile in 8 A.D. and these would have been copied over and over by slaves and disseminated, recited and maybe even hung up on sign posts. It's not like a Barnes and Noble, but it apparently worked.
And I do have a list of the extant pieces fragments and "books" of Ovid which I'll bring here tomorrow. It's truly a miracle we have anything at all.
It's also fascinating to me that Julius Caesar wrote about the Britons and sailed to Britain in Britain's Iron Age, (the real one). It's just incredible to me that we can read things written during the Iron Age of the Western World.
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We're so used to universal literacy that it's easy to forget what a powerful tool the ability to read can be. In the pre-Civil War South, slaves weren't allowed to learn to read, as a way of keeping them powerless. But here in Rome, slaves can read and write, and I think often had positions of some responsibility and power.
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I am curious about the Giants that pile up the mountains trying to overthrow Jupiter in the heavens. Who are they? Have we met them before? Does Mother Earth transform their bloody bodies into human form? I am trying to figure hot how this fits in to Ovid's big picture. I am missing something.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/QuattuorAetatesIron.jpg)
The Age of Iron
Pietro Da Cortona (Barrettini)
(b. 1596, Cortona, d. 1669, Roma)
(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free. Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
For Your Consideration:
Week Two: Gods and men learn to interact January 26--?
First section: The Four Ages
Bk I:89-112 The Golden Age
Bk I:113-124 The Silver Age
Bk I:125-150 The Bronze Age
1. Have you heard other versions of the Four Ages? Where did Ovid get this story?
2. Why do you think the ages progress from better to worse instead of the other direction?
3. The Golden Age sounds wonderful, doesn't it? What would your idea of a "Golden Age" feature?
4. What is your favorite line from Ovid about the Golden Age?
5. What was it that turned the Golden Age into the Silver Age?
6. What is "Classical Mythology?" Do you have time to watch less than 10 minutes of Dr. Roger Travis of UCONN explain what "The Rudy Thing" is, so we can discuss it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY)
Second Section: Giants and Lycaon
Bk I:151-176 The giants
Bk I:177-198 Jupiter threatens to destroy humankind
Bk I: 199-243 Lycaon is turned into a wolf
1. What are the Giants? Why is this chapter there? Does it accomplish anything?
2. We now meet the Pantheon of Gods for the first time. The imagery here is spectacular. What line or lines particularly struck you in the writing about their conference?
3. A direct reference is made to Augustus for the first time in this poem. Who is he being likened to? Why?
4. What would the Romans have seen as Lycaon’s real offense?
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
Of the Four Ages, the Golden is a bore because it does not support that essential human need to get up and do the things that need to be done (Thanks, Garrison Keillor!), or more accurately, to seek out challenging things to do.
Ovid's Silver Age is essentially descriptive not of climate change, but of seasonal change and its stimulation of agriculture. Next,in two and a half lines he leaves the Bronze Age to Homer and Vergil. Then he blasts the Iron Age in which people must live and struggle to survive in a world Ovid views as motivated by"unholy Greed(Lombardo, l. 133). That description is the most interesting to me because it expresses the age-old misunderstanding of the function that private property, commerce, and enterprise perform in advancing human welfare. It required a long journey from Ovid's time before John Locke and Adam Smith got it right.
Intellectuals, clerics and poets seem particularly prone to rail against the system that shelters, clothes and feed them. They are uncomfortable because that system is driven by self-interest instead of some higher altruism. Ovid and William Wordsworth both complained that "The world is too much with us; late and soon,/Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers." Ovid's lament about the privatization of "fields/Once held in common like the sunlight and air" (Lombardo, ll.137-138) ignores realities like the tragedy of the commons, i.e. over-grazing that destroys common pasture lands' productivity.
Of course, privately driven economies have always been afflicted by the duplicity and fraud Ovid highlights, but such problems were addressed by law in his day, and and are so addressed in ours, albeit imperfectly. Oh brother Ponzi, where art thou? Condemning commerce as infra dig smacks more of moral snobbery than of common sense. But it has always been stylish in academe (except in the Economics Department) and societies structured like Augustan Rome and Downton Abbey.
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I feel like Ginny coming in here today - Wow, Wow, Wow and then Wow again...
3 Wow's for Ginny - first one, to share with us a wealth of information about paper, vellum, ancient libraries - I need to read and re-read again and again - seriously to get it all - and the link says paper only hit Rome in 163 or 168 not going back to get it exact but just over a 100 years before Ovid hit the scene - and with all our technology I really like paper - good water color rag paper, lovely printed notes and letter paper, posters, towels to wipe up my kitchen mess, magazines, notebooks, post-its, envelopes to turn into todo lists, and of course books.
Then another Wow to actually own a fragment of an ancient text - oh oh oh - how special is that - just repeating that bit and I feel like a floating spirit surveying mankind.
And the third wow - to have accumulated so much knowledge and shared it with us - I recently found one of my saying's I love to collect that said - Life is to express not impress - and you can hear in the post the expression of what has been a meaningful part of your life - and I am impressed although I can tell the wonderful sharing of information was not meant to impress but, to impart the love of knowledge about this time in our history. Thanks for your generosity.
The fourth Wow is reading howshap's post - the thesis on greed versus enterprise was a window I had never explored - and to think again, as so many of our beliefs today, this difference was noted just over 2000 years ago. There is a lot of entrenched beliefs that we seem to be attempting to step over or bang into within the past 50 years - I do not think any of us really understood how entrenched was the gut level reaction we carry to the social behavior and economic understanding we feel challenged to change. Never really did read John Locke and Adam Smith except to gloss over in school enough to pass a test. Thanks howshap for bringing them to our attention - maybe it took this read to see the dichotomy between the two branches of thought before I could have even appreciated these two authors.
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It seems there are legends of giants in many cultures. Even in the Bible.
"Genesis 6:4King James Version (KJV)
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."
I read a book by Adrienne Mayor titled "The First Fossil Hunters". In the book she gives much evidence that many mystical beasts were the mistaken identify of prehistoric fossils. The Griffen came from Protoceratops and other dinosaur remains that littered the ground in Scythia.. The fossilized skull of Mammoths sans tusks and trunk can look remarkably like a giant human scull, as well as the leg bones appearing to be human.
Here is a link to the book.
http://www.amazon.com/The-First-Fossil-Hunters-Dinosaurs/dp/0691150133
As an aside I also found her book on Mithradates " The Poison King:The Life and Legend of Mithradates, Rome's Deadliest Enemy" Linked below, to be a great read.
http://www.amazon.com/Poison-King-Legend-Mithradates-Deadliest/dp/0691150265/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1454091801&sr=1-4&keywords=adrienne+mayor
bellamarie: I am so glad you enjoyed the Cicero quote. I have always loved that quote myself.
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The ancient Chinese social structure had scholars at the top, then farmers, then artisans, and at the bottom were merchants, who lived off the work of others, or so they believed. I agree that many resent those who lend and buy and sell in our society. In fact, I who am a consumer of all of that feel as if I am going to be cheated when I buy in the marketplace. We are distrustful of the seller, who is ofter very far removed from the manufacturer, the banker, and the owner. However, not much changes: guilds were formed by artisans in the European Middle Ages, mainly to protect the quality of their goods from unscrupulous artisans among them: bread filled with chalk, rotten fish, shoddy made boots etc. My students never understood why society is willing to pay movie stars and rock stars so much more than those who teach children. God love my students.
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Chase, thanks for the fossil links. I had no idea a mammoth skull looked sort of like a big human skull.
These giants came from the earth too. They're the sons of Tartarus and the Earth, many armed, with snake feet.
For those of you not reading online Kline, the site has a wonderful table of the whole cast of characters. There are links to individual characters where they appear in the text, but there's a link to the whole thing at the top of the first page; it's called Index-Concordance.
My seriously nerdy childhood left me with some familiarity with mythical figures, but it's impossible to keep them all straight. There are just too many of them.
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I can't miss a day of this discussion -- I miss so much.
A comment on the parrot that was really a parakeet in Ovid's poem: when we read Homer together, I was struck by the fact that apparently today we have to guess at what bird some of his bird names refer to. Homer knew his birds: his descriptions tell us that, so when we see mention of sandpipers nesting in trees, it's a problem with the translator, not Homer. I followed up with some of the references, and found, indeed, places that admit it's a guess what bird is referred to. Probably no one but me cares, but I wonder if that's a problem in Latin as well?
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MKaren,
My students never understood why society is willing to pay movie stars and rock stars so much more than those who teach children.
As a teacher/daycare provider/parent, grandparent and now a parent instructor for parents of an organization called Heartbeat of Toledo which helps educate mostly unwed mothers, I too have always wondered why people who care for, and educate children to become the leaders of the future, are paid and respected so little. A person who puts pieces in a socket in an assembly line for a vehicle makes so much more than any person dealing with education on the lower levels, before college. And, without going into too much of a rant I have to say an athlete who wears helmets make enormous amounts more money to play a professional sport than a soldier who wears a helmet and risks their lives to protect our country. It truly has always baffled me. Seems we haven't gotten it all figured out and prioritized even today.
Chase, Thank you, those fossil links were very interesting. I loved when we read the book Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier. A quote from Publisher's Weekly: The discoveries of fossils on the beaches of Lyme Regis, England, in the 19th century rocked the world and opened the minds of scientists to the planet's unimaginable age and the extinction of species.
Amazon quote: "On the windswept, fossil-strewn beaches of the English coast, poor and uneducated Mary Anning learns that she has a unique gift: "the eye" to spot fossils no one else can see. When she uncovers an unusual fossilized skeleton in the cliffs near her home, she sets the religious community on edge, the townspeople to gossip, and the scientific world alight."
http://www.amazon.com/Remarkable-Creatures-Novel-Tracy-Chevalier/dp/0452296722
I was never so intrigued about fossils until I read this book.
howshap, Intellectuals, clerics and poets seem particularly prone to rail against the system that shelters, clothes and feed them. They are uncomfortable because that system is driven by self-interest instead of some higher altruism
I agree, I think common people do indeed make these others classes feel uncomfortable. It seems they have little to no tolerance for those less fortunate. Although I must say, Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge, or simply Kate, and Prince William, along with Harry seem to have broken the glass ceiling on this attitude for their generation, as has Pope Francis who sneaks out into the night with normal black priestly clothes to visit the poor.
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Bellamarie:
I think common people do indeed make these others classes feel uncomfortable.
Howshap and bellamarie, I agree with you. and duplicity and fraud, as well as altruism cut across all class lines.
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JoanK, I'm glad we have you here to keep us straight about anything to do with birds.
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Relating back to Ginny’s account of reading and writing in ancient Rome, I want to add something to the discussion.
First, I can just imagine how difficult it must have been to learn to read and write Latin during those times. It must have been orders of magnitude more difficult than for us moderns to learn to read and write in English, for example. Considering that texts had no word spacing or punctuations, as Ginny noted, it would be a formidable task to read and comprehend a text. One would need a lot of time and a lot of perseverance to plow through a text of say five hundred words, which for us is a short essay. I would think that it would require several readings before one could go through a text without plodding through in one sitting.
Second, I have read that silent reading was not practiced until much later in time, probably in the middle ages, although I believe I have read somewhere that a few individuals did practice silent reading in antiquity. I can’t remember if one such individual was Saint Augustine. Can you imagine how noisy a public library must have been in antiquity, with people reading out loud? Reading out loud seems to me more natural and easier than silent reading. Whenever I want to really read a book and retain what I read, I force myself to read out loud. In that way, I can receive the spoken and written words simultaneously.
Third, returning to the difficulty of reading texts, picking out words from among long strands of letters would require the power of Gestalt by which one can see patterns in a jumble, that is, see the forest from the trees. That requires a lot of brain power and probably training and experience.
And let’s not forget the importance of dictionaries. I don’t believe there was any Latin dictionary in ancient times. Dictionaries impose a standardization of spelling and meaning of words. Without dictionaries, spelling varies widely from one moment to the next. Unrecognized spelling of words in texts would have added to the difficulty of reading and comprehension.
One of the questions posted was: Why do you think the ages progress from better to worse instead of the other direction? I believe it was a view of mankind held by some, even today, that man’s impact on the world leads to degradation. Ovid’s view is understandable in view that he lived through horrendous civil wars and there were a lot of corruption. But it was one view. There was another view, which is most likely shared by many today. That other view is that the history of man is progressive, not regressive. In Ovid’s Iron Age, man’s achievements are not celebrated. On the other hand, there was Sophocles’ Antigone in which he put in the mouths of the chorus, an Ode to Man, in which he celebrated the powers and achievements of man:
There are many strange and wonderful things,
but nothing more strangely wonderful than man.
He moves across the white-capped ocean seas
blasted by winter storms, carving his way
under the surging waves engulfing him.
With his teams of horses he wears down
the unwearied and immortal earth,
the oldest of the gods, harassing her,
as year by year his ploughs move back and forth. [340]
He snares the light-winged flocks of birds,
herds of wild beasts, creatures from deep seas,
trapped in the fine mesh of his hunting nets.
O resourceful man, whose skill can overcome
ferocious beasts roaming mountain heights. [350]
He curbs the rough-haired horses with his bit
and tames the inexhaustible mountain bulls,
setting their savage necks beneath his yoke.
He’s taught himself speech and wind-swift thought,
trained his feelings for communal civic life,
learning to escape the icy shafts of frost,
volleys of pelting rain in winter storms,
the harsh life lived under the open sky.
That’s man—so resourceful in all he does. [360]
There’s no event his skill cannot confront—
other than death—that alone he cannot shun,
although for many baffling sicknesses
he has discovered his own remedies.
And here is Shakespeare’s Ode to Man from the mouth of Hamlet:
What a piece of work is a man! how noble in reason!
how infinite in faculty! in form and moving how
express and admirable! in action how like an angel!
in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the
world! the paragon of animals! And yet, to me,
what is this quintessence of dust? man delights not
me: no, nor woman neither, though by your smiling
you seem to say so.
The modern progressive view of man’s history developed in the 17th century by English whig historians who saw a pattern of improvement in man’s lot, with qualitative material improvement in living standards and development of political and individual freedoms. I think subsequent English philosophers such as Hobbes and Locke built on those interpretations. The view is still shared by many today.
To view history as progressive, in my opinion, is to apply Aristotle’s final cause for change. In other words, if there is progress, then there is a purpose or an end to be fulfilled.
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What a lovely conversation this has been. Thanks to all for your insights and observations. Sophocles' Ode to Man was a revelation. I had no idea that anything like it existed before Shakespeare wrote Hamlet. The contrast with Ovid's Iron Age could not be more vivid. Now I must add Antigone to my reading list.
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howshap we read Antigone here on Senior Learn - maybe a year or so ago - but then time does pass quickly - at any rate it should be in the archive and you may want to refer to it and see our understanding and struggles reading the story.
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Barb, time does fly--it was spring of 2012. For anyone looking for it in our archives, they are listed chronologically, and the heading of that discussion is Women in Greek Drama. JoanK and I discussed three plays, Antigone, Agamemnon, and Iphigenia in Taurus, all containing examples of strong women. (There are a lot of strong women in Greek plays, in spite of their powerless position in their society.)
Howshap, I hope you do read Antigone; not only is it good reading, it presents an interesting moral dilemma, on which different generations have taken different sides. Warning: after an opening conversation, there is a very fanciful two page description of the battle that has just occurred. It takes a lot of work to make sense of what the chorus is saying. But the rest of the play isn't like that. It's very exciting.
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Marcustullius, what an interesting comparison and what beautiful words! I want to come back to the dictionary issue, but I love the contrast you have put here, and the insights, too.
Barbara, how nice of you, thank you. I feel the same when I read all of everybody's posts in here, too, and I agree with Howard, this is dazzling.
Our section today has likewise some dazzling parts to me.
First off, we have Giants suddenly. Of unknown origin. Why do you think this passage is in here? These creatures appear to be either Ovid's invention or that of some unknown Greek writer. Hesiod and Homer mention some of the story but not what's called the Gigantomachy, the war, which some think parallel the ravages of the Civil War, and Jupiter's triumph to presage the victory and peaceful rule of Augustus in a "new Golden Age."
In fact even today the writers of this period were called the Golden Age of Latin Literature. These sophisticated writers of the Golden Age of Latin Literature shunned the very idea of the Giants as lacking in sophistication and wanted nothing to do with it.
But what did YOU think of the Giants and what they seem to represent?
The idea that man has caused this degeneration is fascinating, and we'll enjoy testing it out. Is man the victim or the perpetrator? Man looks pretty bad in the Iron Age, doesn't he?
But to the "rescue" comes the Pantheon of gods in the upper air. Homer and Ennius had a "Council of the Gods" I love Lombardo's description:
On a clear night you might see a road in the sky
Called the Milky Way, renowned for its white glow.
This is the road the gods take to the royal palace
of the great Thunderer.
And this:
...The plebeian gods
Live in a different neighborhood, but the great
All have their homes along this avenue. This quarter,
If I may say so, is high heaven's Palatine.
First off the description of the Way to Heaven is marvelous. Is this what your translation says?
I love the very idea of it.
Note, however, that the Palatine hill (where Augustus and some of the more influential senators who ran Rome lived ) is compared. That's pretty clear and pretty strong. In the Latin Ovid sort of "apologizes" for saying this, or diffidently says "if I may say so," which of course brings lots of attention to it. How does your translation handle the Palatine? Does it have it IN there in the first place?
Flattering to Augustus? It may have seemed so at first. :)
Looks like Jupiter, the King of the gods, has decided to make things right again because of an incident where he was a guest at dinner among the mortals. He then relates the tale.
This differs from previous instances of Jupiter and his council by other authors in that Jupiter here has somewhat irrationally (or do you think so?) decided that because of this one man the entire race of men should die, and he only uses the Council to back him up: it's not their decision. The "Council" here strongly resembles a rowdy meeting of the Roman Senate.
What was your honest impression of the Lycaon story?
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Lycaon seemed to be the ultimate example of how far man has fallen from the time of the Golden Age and Jupiter needs to impress the other gods and convince them that destruction is the only answer. So he changes into a human and journeys to Lycaon's house. What he discovers along the way is far more "iniquity" than he had seen before. The most heinous offense is the cannibalism that Lycaon tries to trick him into participating in. This is the "last straw" and out come the thunder bolts. In the end, Lycaon is transformed into the most hideous wolf for all to see the evil of the world personified. Ovid reveals this story soon after the comments about the Palatine, thus drawing contemporary (to Ovid) Rome into the myth. I suggest that this is Ovid's cautionary tale to Romans who are moving further from the "glory days" of the Republic. Doesn't he even refer to Caesar's assignation at this point?
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Ginny, hou just gave me a rather interesting idea, but I want to think it over a bit.
Marcustullius, whose translation of Antigone is that? I like it.
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I have always loved the story of the werewolf. It fascinated me how a person could change into a wolf when the moon was full. Reading Metamorphoses and the story of Lycaon immediately brought that story to mind. The villagers were always afraid when the full moon came and the sound of the wolf was heard. They knew someone was about to be killed. To the villagers this was a sign of evil and why they hunted the werewolf. They wanted to rid the world of the horror and evil of the werewolf. This became a legend but I believe it shows the evil in mankind and the desire to destroy it.
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'But what did YOU think of the Giants and what they seem to represent?' Your question, Ginny, fits very nicely into the train of thought started by other posts. Wow! What a discussion.
Can we guess at the books that Ovid read. Following up on Chase's tip that giants are mentioned in the bible, I believe it safe to say that Ovid had read his bible. The giants, we read, (Ch 6, Genesis) were ' the sons of the gods (who) had intercourse with the daughters of men and got children by them....They were the heroes of old.'
It was otherwise with the Lord. He saw only 'that man had done much evil on earth and that his thoughts and inclinations were always evil...I will wipe them off the face of the earth...I am sorry I ever made them.'
It seems to me the determination of a jealous god. And what a quandary he finds himself in. Should he do it by fire or flood? As it turns out, fire is not an option. Too violent. It might set fire to heaven. And isn't that a modern age concern, considering our nuclear capabilities.
I had better post this immediately. I think Pat is thinking along a similar line.
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The idea of these authors reading other works I think we are thinking from our modern concept of material available - my first impulse was to see if there is any history on how many Bibles were available and where they were located since we know there were no books as such but only scrolls and they were all hand written - and then this - I did not know and was shocked to learn that the Old Testament that even if Ovid could find a copy and read it, is no more.
We have seen just reading Ovid the many translations and so this has to be carried through with all these ancient texts and here we now learn that the Hebrew used to write the old Testament is lost - there is NO ONE in the world today that could read or translate it - that the Old Testament we refer to was as a result of books written in the 13 and 14th century... or to a Greek version, translated into Greek before the birth of Ovid.
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/ot_manuscripts.html
There is not one place in the Masoretic Hebrew where they can show that God ever authorized them to change the original language by adding vowel points to it. (the vowels were added in the 10th century) And by adding the vowels, they changed the words, and by changing the words, they have changed the meaning of these words, and by changing the meaning of words, they have changed the Word of God. And if they have changed the Word of God within the Masoretic Hebrew text, we must take care.
The Meaning of Words in the Masoretic Hebrew is Lost
And then this...
...around 285 B.C., they took the original Hebrew Text and translated it into Greek for those Jews that no longer spoke Hebrew, and also to convert many of the Greeks over to Judaism.
... When Jesus and the apostles quoted from the Old Testament scriptures, they did not quote from the original Hebrew Text, for two reasons. One: the writers of the New Testament books spoke mainly Greek; and two, their listeners and readers (who were mostly gentiles) did not speak Hebrew! So, they quoted from a manuscript that was in the same language that they spoke during the first century...the Greek Septuagint! Doesn't this make sense? The Septuagint is the scripture cited by Christ and by the Apostles. By Christ quoting from the Septuagint, he is confirming what he wrote 285 years before he came!
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The Titans in Greek mythology were giants. Those included Prometheus, and Atlas. They were associated with the Golden Age, I think. Is he referencing them, or some other kind of giant? The ancients did come across dinosaur fossils now and again. For example, t
here has been speculation that mastadon/mammoth skulls may have been a source or confirmation to the ancients that Cyclops existed.
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I only read more recently that all the talk of dragons both fiery and otherwise was not that this knight or saint slew an animal creature called a dragon but that there was some fierce and aggressive situation, unknown, or even a hostile more barbaric human and to describe the fearful nature of the unknown situation it was referred to as a dragon and we in modern times have taken it literary - again anyone can have a theory and I did not look up to see who was the author of this theory - but it sounds like a possibility - if we were not there and we bring with our interest a sense or seriousness trying to eek out not knowing what is emblematic and what is analogy that better expresses the fears of the times - and so I am wondering if this way of handling what is fearful could also pertain to the giants...?
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The more I read this section the more I am amused - sounds to me like whoever is this all powerful being is discouraged that humans were not as peace-loving nor peacekeeping as those in the Golden Age - there are battles between humans labeled as bad and good - and then the Gods gather because the humans went just too far attempting to reach the kingdom of the gods with their giants.
Talk about a parent like figure saying "do as I say and not as I do" - we heard of one atrocity after the other between competing gods - far more outrageous than anything the humans were doing. Just as some parents blame their kids this un-named gods blames the humans for thinking they were as good or at least no worse than the gods.
This whole power trip between the gods and between god and man only underlines the basic thinking - once there is any disagreement it is a power trip to put someone in their place.
As to all these humans - they are the other - we must protect and separate ourselves from them is the message - sounds like the immigrant message of today :( - and of all the humans we must carve out those not yet infected using a knife!?! This one sided story has the gods determining punishment in addition to who deserved the punishment - Ovid quickly parallels the power trip as one between the people and Caesar, scaring the bejeebers out of the masses and horrifying the whole world which became the preparation to usher in Augustus.
And so now we have Augustus on the same footing as the god Jupiter - sound like the Roman Catholic Church borrowed this authority role for the Pope likening him to God as God's spokesmen on earth, no middle man for them in the form of a god like Jupiter between the Pope and the Supreme God ;) -
Now the big concession to accepting Augustus there would no longer be punishment without at least knowing your crime.
OH my we have the wondering disguised god with more atrocities as power meets power and the side the story is being told has to prove their righteous case by depicting the other as turning into a mad wolf or a mad something foaming at the mouth that acts with unspeakable horrors - sounds like how the Japanese were described to us during WWII. and how the story of Nanjing was described.
This use of authority and the story line that it accompanies to me is like a bad computer game or an old comic book series with Captain Marvel as the ultimate power - looks like the answer to crowd control has always been to crack down and establish order re-establishing the hierarchy of power. I can just see the more recent example of the Olympiad Wall Street brokers laughing and drinking their campaign on the balcony overlooking the Occupy Wall Street movement that they were able to put the right incentive into the hands of those who successfully silenced and moved along those "murmuring with voice and gesture"
It does not sound like Rome has any truck (as the French say, troquer) for Democracy... the pyramid of authoritarian power is it...
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I'm amazed at how many points this discussion brings up. MARCUSTULLUS: "Why do you think the ages progress from better to worse instead of the other direction?"
This might be an example of one of the closely held cultural beliefs that were mentioned in "The Rudy Thing." Certainly as others have said, it would come naturally to those of Ovid's generation and experience.
In the US, the dominant cultural belief has been the one of progress that MARCUSTULLUS mentioned. I grew to adulthood in the heady period after WWII, when all things seemed possible: the depression and war were over and the economy was humming. It was natural to think the future would be glorious.
And the next generation, while rebelling and criticizing the society, also believed they could make it better: would create a better world if they just worked hard enough at it.
It's also natural, in every time, for young people to look forward and older people to look backward. What do todays young people think of the future? Up, down, or sideways?
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That's a good point, Karen. And Lycaon really pushed it, didn't he. These gods that appear as people and walk among men, what does that tell man?
The Guest Host relationship was almost sacrosanct among the ancients. You can see it over and over in Homer's Odyssey and Iliad. Here is the traveler, looking like a beggar, washes up on the shore. He's a mess, tattered, etc. But when he gets to the house, the first thing is he's offered a bath and refreshment. We saw that in our Cambridge texts, too. And then once he's all refreshed and cleaned up they have a dinner and only after that will they ask who he is. Imagine that in 2016!
And what happens when Jupiter goes among men? Lycaon does the absolute worst in making fun of the piety of the others who are trying to pray to Jupiter. Then serving him human flesh. PLUS Jupiter says he plans to murder him. He's really pushed it beyond any limit, perhaps the exaggeration is for us, to make a point.
I wonder how Jupiter knew that Lycoan planned to kill him?
I wonder which was worse to Jupiter? I don't think we have to think hard about that. Hubris on the part of mortals, especially something as awful as mocking prayer to the god was almost unspeakable, much less the other offenses. However to blow away and entire world for this one man seems to me a bit extreme.
Interesting, CollieRose, on the wolf. Is this the first real metamorphosis? If so it's interesting that it should be a wolf. I need to go back and read the changes again. I am not sure, there were so many things changing there with the Creation. What an interesting theory of why a wolf! Never thought of that.
Oh that's a good point Joan K, about referencing The Rudy Thing and how cultural truth values can be seen here of Ovid's time. I love that Rudy Thing and am so glad to see it being applied!
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Jonathan, this was really good: It seems to me the determination of a jealous god. And what a quandary he finds himself in. Should he do it by fire or flood? As it turns out, fire is not an option. Too violent. It might set fire to heaven. And isn't that a modern age concern, considering our nuclear capabilities.
The first thing I thought when I read this was Robert Frost: some say the world will end in fire, and some in ice.
And so in your post we can see that the order which has been imposed on chaos is tenuous, and apparently only due to the will of the gods. And it depends on how stable those gods are. And that, given our cast of characters, is a very scary thought.
Maybe Ovid thought that about Augustus ad the Golden Age of Literature, too.
Barbara, you mention you were amused. And later you mention allegory. How many things it seems to be all at once! And that's an astute point on "Democracy," but that's several other books for another time. The Optimates (Aristocrats who called themselves literally "the Best") ran Rome. That's why Julius Caesar was assassinated. Nothing to do with freedom fighters. Wonderful article by T.P Wiseman titled "The Ethics of Murder," about the assassination. Good reading.
And an interesting point about Augustus compared to Jupiter. The Jupiter of Ovid's poem is not quite what we expect from a god. He's not the Jupiter of Homer or Hesiod, either. He's a new Jupiter. I don't think anybody is going to benefit from being compared to him and his shenanigans, least of all, Augustus.
Frybabe, what an interesting thought about the Cyclops and the mammoth skulls, did mammoths roam in Italy? (I have no idea). I' m lost on these Giants. They are merging with the Titans somehow. Hesiod's giants sprang from the blood of Uranus when he was castrated. Apparently the argument went something like: was man created to be superior and then declined or did an "angry earth" create him as an angry offspring? Prometheus created man out of the earth but also the chaotic elements. Very interesting speculation.
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PatH, the passage I quoted from the Antigone is Ian Johnston's translation.
JoanK, I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought the ages progress from better to worse. I intended to say that we tend to view mankind’s journey in one of two ways: either regression or progression. Come to think of it, I want to add another, and that is our journey could be a zig zag with no obvious direction.
In order to present and justify my view, which I will end with, I use an analogy of the difference between rational and irrational numbers. With rational numbers, one will detect a pattern among the sequence of digits to the right of the decimal if one proceeds far enough. With irrational numbers, on the other hand, no matter how far one goes, no pattern is observed. The digits are metaphors for events or epochs or ages in man’s existence. At what point can one feel confident enough to firmly settle on a conclusion that a pattern that extends to time immemorial exists. May be, as with the irrational number, there is no pattern at all, when extended to an infinite series of digits. If no pattern exists, the search for it would be interminable. So, recognizing the brief span of time of man’s existence up to this point, my own mortality (very short life) and my other limitations, I humbly confess that I don’t know whether we are regressing, or progressing, or zigzagging.
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Are the Giants a separate power structure? I had them as emanating or at least as assigned with the humans - are they a species apart, neither gods nor humans?
I thought their birth was a new group of humans from blood mixed with earth where as the first group of humans was rain water mixed with earth with both groups subject to the whims of the gods.
It sounded to me that the gods were angry because the giants were building to reach the domain of the gods which if reached symbolically would put the giants (large humans) on the same level as the gods.
Rendering the heights of heaven no safer than the earth, they say the giants attempted to take the Celestial kingdom, piling mountains up to the distant stars
If the giants are another species that puts a different light on this but if they are in common with humans then I see these group responding to what displeases them no differently than the way the gods respond to what displeases them, with raw aggressive power.
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Ginny, yes, they did inhabit Italy as well as most of the Near East and Asia, and part of Europe. Check out the slide show which includes the pix showing the hole which was for the trunk which the ancients speculated that was a single eye. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastodon#/media/File:Mammut_americanum.jpg
Another speculation some archaeologists have made is that the ancients mistook leg or thigh bones from dinosaur fossils that eroded out of the soil. Well, they were giants, just not hominid. While dinosaur bones were not recognized as such and scientifically studied until the mid to late 1670's, an ancient Chinese text reports discoveries of dragon bones (Chang Qu, 4th century BC).
Here is an interesting answer to the question of whether or not the Romans and Greeks were aware of these artifacts. https://www.quora.com/Did-the-ancient-Romans-and-Greeks-know-about-the-dinosaurs
The columnist says he is unaware of any ancient Greek or Roman texts that possibly refer to fossil bones. What interested me the most, however, is his mention of Xenophanes of Kos and his discovery and deduction regarding seashells. Darwin certainly wasn't the first, yet he is the one I associate it from his works describing his walks in the Andes during his famous voyage on the Beagle. But that is getting a bit off topic.
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Interesting, Frybabe. Those mastodon skulls sure do look like they might be cyclopses. Note that answer also says "Greek myths received a lot of influences from Mesopotamian and Egyptian culture", something we've seen and will see more of.
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Barb, the Giants are somewhat confusing. They don't seem to be human. The index to Kline says they're monsters, sons of Tartarus and Earth, with many arms and serpent feet, but they're not described in the poem, though in Martin's translation they are called the race of giants. When they are killed, crushed when their tower of mountains is toppled by the gods, their mother Earth reanimates their blood, giving it a human form, also impious and bloodthirsty. And I'm not clear whether this new form is part of mankind or separate.
The wording is odd too. Twice Ovid hedges by saying "they say" (Lombardo) or "(we hear)" (Martin).
This, plus some remarks by you, Ginny, and Mkaren make me wonder if this section is an allegory for something in Ovid's own time--something that happened or was feared. But I don't know enough about the time to know what it might be.
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My tummy has a mind of its own today - hope it only lasts a day - back tomorrow
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Sorry you are not feeling well Barb. Hope you feel better.
Barb, Are the Giants a separate power structure? I had them as emanating or at least as assigned with the humans - are they a species apart, neither gods nor humans?
PatH., the Giants are somewhat confusing. They don't seem to be human.
Ovid:
And in this age, not even heaven's heights
are safer than the earth. They say the Giants,
striving to gain the kingdom of the sky,
heaped mountain peak on mountain mass, star-high.
Then Jove, almighty Father, hurled his bolts
of lightning, smashed Olympus, and dashed down
Mount Pelion from Mount Ossa. Overwhelmed
by their own bulk, these awesome bodies sprawled:
and Earth soaked up the blood of her dread sons:
and with their blood still warm, she gave their gore
new life: so that the Giants' race might not
be lost without a trace, she gave their shape
to humans whom she fashioned from that blood.
But even this new race despised the gods;
and they were keen from slaughter, bent on force:
it's clear to see that they were born of blood.
It seems to me that Ovid is not really clear if the Giants are human or not. They just appear, yet then it says "so their race might not be lost without a trace she gave their shape to humans, who she fashioned from that blood." Is it just me, or do you see a double narrative here? I went on a search and found we are not the only ones confused, or seeing double negatives.
William S. Anderson's translation:
Ovid picks up a story whose earliest version is found in Homer (Od. 1.305-20), who called the attackers not Giants, but sons of Aloeus, Otus and Ephialtes.
154 tum pater omnipotens: same phrase in same position in Aen. 10.100 where Jupiter quiets the uproar of the gods. Elsewhere, Ovid prefers the particle at with the noun and epithet (cf. 2.404, 401). perfregit Olympun:
according to Homer, Otus and Ephiatltes piled Ossa on Olymus and Pelion on Ossa: so Jupiter dislodged the structure by striking the bottom- most mountain.
155 subiectae...Ossae: dative of separation. Ossa was under Pelion, which Jupiter knocked off.
157-58 natorum: Ovid casually tells us that the Giants were children of the Earth. According to Hesiod, when Uranus was emasculated, Earth caught the blood from the wound and generated numerous offspring, including the Giants calidum...cruorem158: Keeping our attention on the blood, Ovid prepares us for the allegorical meaning of the metamorphosis (cf. 161-62).
159 For the double negative or litotes, cf.34.
monimenta manerent:human beings, in their diminutive size, are the paltry "monument" for the huge Giants, but they equal them in their bloodthirsty character.
160 Ovid exploited a doublet of the myth of human origins; one or the other was supposed to stand alone, either that we were created by an act of benevolence and then declined from that ideal state (e.g. 76-150) or that an angry earth generated us to be naturally bloody (151 ff.). etilla: for Lee, Ovid implies that these men are "like the men of the Iran Age:; but it is preferable to regard these human beings as resembling Earth's previous offspring, the Giants.
161 contemprix superum: Ovid has fashioned a striking phase, which he will reuse in its masculine form in 3.514 of Pentheus. It varies Virgil's famous characterization of Mezentius in Aen. 7.648 as compemtor divum (same metrical position). He implicitly prepares here for the tale of Lycaon (209 ff.), who tries to kill a god, lusts for murder, and is violent to his core.
162 scires e sanguine natos: another kind of terminal sententia (cf. 60) Ovid invites us, as it were, to cross the distance that separates us from the mythical account, to recognize ourselves in these human beings.
https://books.google.com/books?id=t12AuG0q144C&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=were+the+giants+Ovid+speaks+of+in+his+Metamorphoses+from+man&source=bl&ots=CveiwzBFIW&sig=kdcaDkhFKNQl2UYkCPIHQ6Fs6Zk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiDgeiyydTKAhWMMSYKHZooD5oQ6AEISDAI#v=onepage&q=were%20the%20giants%20Ovid%20speaks%20of%20in%20his%20Metamorphoses%20from%20man&f=false
Ovid's creation of man:
An animal with higher intellect,
more noble, able__one to rule the rest:
such was the living thing the earth still lacked.
The man was born, Either the Architect
of All, the author of the universe,
in order to beget a better world,
created man from seed divine__or else
Prometheus, son of Iapetus, made man
by mixing new__made earth with fresh rainwater
(for earth had only recently been set apart from heaven, and the earth still kept
seeds of the sky__remains of their shared birth);
and when he fashioned man, his mold recalled
the masters of all things, the gods.
So was the earth, which until then had been
so rough and indistinct, transformed: it wore
a thing unknown before__the human form.
Can Ovid have it both ways, or shall I say three ways,
1. The Architect of All from divine seed,
2. Prometheus, son of Iapetus mixing new made earth with rainwater, or
3. Earth soaked up the blood of her dread sons: and with their blood still warm, she gave their gore new life
(from the blood of the Giants)?
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Hope you are feeling better soon Barb.
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"{Twice Ovid hedges by saying "they say" (Lombardo) or "(we hear)" (Martin)."
I've noticed this tentative tone in Ovid before. ("Some god", two different versions of the creation of humans). very different from what we expect in an epic, which is usually presented as THE story. This makes me think of Ovid as a real scholar like a modern scientist, finding his way through the material available at the time and applying (as Polya says) different shades and colors of maybe and perhaps to it. I really like that.
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MARCUS TULLUS: very interesting, especially the part about rational and irrational numbers.(Note: irrational numbers are those that can't be expressed as a ratio of integers. Pi is an example. No matter how many digits you use, you haven't given it exactly).
I was thinking more in terms if teasing out what the "closely held beliefs" of the Greeks were, and how that would affect society. Surely, if you believe in progress, and in "that Rudy thing" this will affect your actions and expectations of others differently that if you believe in degeneration.
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'the tentative tone in Ovid' That's a wonderful observation, Joan. Tricksy, isn't it? In the most imaginative poem ever written.
'Ovid invites us, as it were, to cross the distance that separates us from the mythical account, to recognize ourselves in these human beings.' Note 162, from your post, Bellamarie.
Can we apply that to our thinking about the giants? Ovid may be judging these guys by their aspirations in assaulting heaven, which may be causing some concern for Jupiter.
And that could explain Ginny's 'new Jupiter'. Roman politics come into play. Augustus is not amused. The Metamorphoses may well be considered a subversive political tract.
It may seem far out, but I do find myself lost in the Milky Way of Ovid's poetic imagination.
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Jonathan,
Roman politics come into play. Augustus is not amused. The Metamorphoses may well be considered a subversive political tract.
It may seem far out, but I do find myself lost in the Milky Way of Ovid's poetic imagination.
I tend to lean to the political tract, giving Augustus reason for exiling him.
Don't feel alone lost in the Milky Way, Jonathan. I know I feel lost somewhere in orbit with this poem. I'm just glad I have search engines (spaceships) at my fingertips to steer me around the galaxy. The fun thing is there are no absolutes as JoanK., so eloquently points out:
This makes me think of Ovid as a real scholar like a modern scientist, finding his way through the material available at the time and applying (as Polya says) different shades and colors of maybe and perhaps to it. I really like that.
I'm beginning to see him as a mad scientist!! :o :o
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Barb, I hope you're better today.
Bellamarie, those are helpful notes you posted. So, according to Anderson, the giant story is yet one more creation story--humans came from the blood of dead giants--that was kicking around, that Ovid puts in. That would explain the things that confused me.
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I'm super glad to see Bellamarie's post here, and W.S. Anderson making an appearance because for critical commentary he's pretty much it.
He says some things some of us are not going to like, but it's good to have the classicist's view.
I think that's one of the joys of the Internet used wisely: the opportunity to have lots of interesting and credible voices.
Barbara, I hope you are going to feel better, too, there's lots of stuff going about.
Jonathan, I'm with you on the Milky Way, what a picture, imagining it as the road to the gods. I am wondering and I do not know how the gods came to be PUT in the first place in the heavens. Who was it? Homer? Hesiod? Who?
Latin has different words for even the air. The air of the heavens is different from the air we breathe which is different from that of the Underworld. The Underworld, despite our modern take on it was quite a different place from which we might imagine.
Nobody can say the ancients lacked imagination.
Karen asked about the conflict of the giants and its parallel to Caesar, yes, it's thought that this battle represents the Civil War and that the Giants in that section, I am not sure what the other translations say, but in (Lombardo about 159: "The Giants went after the kingdom of heaven..." It's thought that this refers to Julius Caesar attempting a take over. Which is interesting, to say the least. Of course Shakespeare has Cassius refer to Caesar:
CASSIUS
Why, man, he doth bestride the narrow world
Like a Colossus, and we petty men
Walk under his huge legs and peep about
To find ourselves dishonorable graves. (Julius Caesar, Act I scene ii)
It's odd to see Ovid saying this, to me. It's almost as if he's on the wrong side here. Deliberately? Augustus touted himself as Caesar's "son," and completed many of his projects. Dangerous thin ice here our poet is skating on. Maybe Augustus won't notice.
Lombardo somewhere around 194:
"The human race must be destroyed. By the river
That glides through the underworld grove of Styx,
I sear that I have already tried everything else,
But gangrenous flesh must be cut away with a knife
Before it infects the rest. I have demigods to protect
And rustic deities-nymphs, fauns, satyrs,
And sylvan spirits on the mountainside.
Although we do not deem them worthy of heaven,
We should at least let them live in their allotted lands,
Do you think they will be safe there, I ask you,
When even against me, who rule you gods,
Snares are laid by the infamous Lycaon?"
Wow. Now there, to me anyway, is probably the most self serving rationalization for killing somebody there can be.
He tried everything? When? Is that what your translation says?
This, to me, is a throw out the baby with the bathwater, but let's pretend we're doing it to protect the people, the little people, it's all in the service of the little "people," the little minor gods, not good enough to be up here but we still need to protect them.
(Have they been harmed?)
I think what we're looking at here is our first example of HUBRIS and the result, that major crime against the gods they can't pardon. This will be a repeating theme throughout the Metamorphoses, but the gods don't seem to need a lot of provocation, if we're honest. Too bad we won't get to Niobe or Arachne where we can see it in action, and THAT is a cultural truth value and says a lot about the relationship of the ancient man (in many cultures including China) to their gods.
I know if you've read Pearl Buck's The Good Earth you have seen the peasant Wang Lung overcome with joy at the birth of his son, walking down the road talking out loud about how awful the boy looks and how sad and woeful he is, just so an angry vengeful god might not be struck by his pride and snatch the boy away. That about sums the entire thing up in a nutshell.
So because of one man's heinous offense, let's kill ALL humans? How many are there, anyway? Why not just kill one? Capricious, I call it.
Marcus Tullius and Joan K: With rational numbers, one will detect a pattern among the sequence of digits to the right of the decimal if one proceeds far enough. With irrational numbers, on the other hand, no matter how far one goes, no pattern is observed. The digits are metaphors for events or epochs or ages in man’s existence. And then Joan K: irrational numbers are those that can't be expressed as a ratio of integers. Pi is an example. No matter how many digits you use, you haven't given it exactly
The two of you take my breath away. I have no earthly idea what you are saying, but it sure is impressive. :)
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Just a quicky - worn out trying to get my body back to normal - at least my tummy is cooperating today - now to ply myself with probiotics with lots of long naps - rainy day so not missing anything...
Yes your reminding us of Wang Lung's protecting his good luck reminded me of how often as a child it was typical to hear folks be concerned for the 'eye' of God. Even then they were called superstitious but my grandmother would faithfully throw salt over her left shoulder if it spilled and knocked on wood which was often the kitchen table and for us kids, it was more than a game that we just would not step on a crack in the road or near our school there was a sidewalk - the old sing song saying about stepping on a crack breaks your mother's back we took seriously.
We do not hear folks today protecting themselves for the gods but they sure had their way up till the mid twentieth century and may even continue to have sway in other cultures.
Reading this cannot decide if it was a recipe of behavior for the future or if Ovid's observations are simply describing man's relationship with his world and the others taking space at the same time, so that his frustrations and considered causes were simply one man's acknowledgment of life on earth that has continued in a similar manner all these years. The only difference seems to be we have different gods - currently it appears to be the god of technology - we keep searching for whatever is that control that is beyond the power of man to completely harness or direct - we've gone past the Milky Way and yet, we still search for what to Ovid was an nameless god that controlled it all.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/FloodPoussin.jpg)
Winter, or The Flood
Nicolas Poussin
(b. 1594, Les Andelys, d. 1664, Rome)
(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free. Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
For Your Consideration:
Week Two: Gods and men learn to interact January 26--?
First section: The Four Ages
Bk I:89-112 The Golden Age
Bk I:113-124 The Silver Age
Bk I:125-150 The Bronze Age
1. Have you heard other versions of the Four Ages? Where did Ovid get this story?
2. Why do you think the ages progress from better to worse instead of the other direction?
3. The Golden Age sounds wonderful, doesn't it? What would your idea of a "Golden Age" feature?
4. What is your favorite line from Ovid about the Golden Age?
5. What was it that turned the Golden Age into the Silver Age?
6. What is "Classical Mythology?" Do you have time to watch less than 10 minutes of Dr. Roger Travis of UCONN explain what "The Rudy Thing" is, so we can discuss it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY)
Second Section: Giants and Lycaon
Bk I:151-176 The giants
Bk I:177-198 Jupiter threatens to destroy humankind
Bk I: 199-243 Lycaon is turned into a wolf
1. What are the Giants? Why is this chapter there? Does it accomplish anything?
2. We now meet the Pantheon of Gods for the first time. The imagery here is spectacular. What line or lines particularly struck you in the writing about their conference?
3. A direct reference is made to Augustus for the first time in this poem. Who is he being likened to? Why?
4. What would the Romans have seen as Lycaon’s real offense?
Third section: The Flood
Bk I:244-273 Jupiter invokes the floodwaters
Bk I:274-292 The Flood
Bk I:293-312 The world is drowned
1. What other ancient flood stories do you know? How is this one the same or different?
2. Are the other gods wholeheartedly behind Jupiter’s plan? Why or why not? Do you think Jupiter was justified in bringing the flood?
3. During the flood, what would happen to the nymphs and other forest spirits Jupiter is supposedly protecting.
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
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Take care of yourself, Barb.
The giants--Ginny, in Martin it's even clearer:
...the race of Giants plotted
(we hear) to rule in heaven by themselves;
So Ovid is sneaking in political commentary wrapped in a story everyone knows, vaguely enough that you can't quite pin it on him.
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What an extraordinary look into the religious life of a pagan world. How does it end? Do gods and mortals ever learn to coexist? And I've just read that The Metamorphoses was Shakespeare's favourite book. It seems a translation (Arthur Golding) came out about the time of Shakespeare's birth and rapidly became a bestseller. Ezra Pound called it 'the most beautiful book in the language'. And really, a quote of nine lines, in the book I'm reading, sound marvellously Shakesperian.
'I'm beginning to see him as a mad scientist!!' Or an ecstatic poet, Bellamarie?
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Barb,
We do not hear folks today protecting themselves for the gods but they sure had their way up till the mid twentieth century and may even continue to have sway in other cultures.
No, I fear if anything folks today question even if there is a God. I see the world today much like the iron age.
Jonathan, "ecstatic poet" for certain by this definition: involving an experience of mystic self-transcendence.
I just know all this power tripping, has me feeling like I am caught in the galaxy with the gods playing pool, and I am being bumped around from place to place as the pool balls hit me. ???
PatH., So Ovid is sneaking in political commentary wrapped in a story everyone knows, vaguely enough that you can't quite pin it on him.
I think we can all pretty much agree on Ovid trying to tactfully, or sneakily place political commentary into his poem, but with all due respect for this brilliant poet, if "we" could figure it out, I am for certain Augustus could as well.
Barb glad to see you are feeling better. My sons and grandchildren have been hit with a nasty virus and I am staying as far away from their house as possible.
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Bellamarie:
I just know all this power tripping, has me feeling like I am caught in the galaxy with the gods playing pool, and I am being bumped around from place to place as the pool balls hit me.
I love that--a perfect summary of life under the gods of the classics.
Yes, Augustus surely could figure it out. I'm guessing all Ovid could hope for was a kind of letter-of-the-law deniability: "why, how could you think I meant that"?
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GINNY: quotes Jupiter as saying "I swear that I have already tried everything else"
Kline's translation says "All means should first be tried,"I wonder if that is a mistake by Kline, or is Ovid ambiguous here? This is tricky, indeed.
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HUBRIS! OF COURSE!
I've been slow trying to pick up the "underlying cultural values" here, and of course that's one of them. If you get too big for your britches (or toga as the case may be) the gods will slap you down. You always have to appease or kowtow to them. A perfect mirror for the way you have to treat Augustus.
Now I forgive Virgil for his constant, long winded praises of Augustus. he had probably learned this kind of behavior from childhood, and knew he had to do it to survive. It's put me off reading the Aeniad (sp). Now I'll just read it and skip those passages.
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(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/2d/2f/c1/2d2fc1a4fc2070ea5b101991c6548b7d.jpg)
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Hah ;D!
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I found this interesting definition of hubris. It seems that the definition has changed since the Greeks used the word. http://www.britannica.com/topic/hubris It appears that, for the ancients, hubris had a violent context rather than a prideful one. I really must read Aristotle. I have had two Modern Library volumes for 40 years and haven't cracked the books. Shame on me.
As for the gods, I was outside before dawn this morning to see if I could identify the Mars, Jupiter, Mercury, Venus and Saturn, along with the Moon. I also got acquainted with Spica and Antares (and its constellation, Scorpius). I missed Mercury this morning, but did see it a few mornings ago when it was higher in the sky just after dawn along with a beautiful turquoise sky with orange tinged clouds.
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Darn. Another opportunity missed. I've never managed to see Mercury, and would really like to. If you saw Spica, you saw Astraea, goddess of justice, the last of the immortals to give up and leave earth in the iron age, because Spica is in the constellation Virgo, who Kline says is Astraea when she isn't being Ceres/Demeter.
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Golly moses, talk about Metamorphoses, have you all seen the film this morning of the poor unfortunate man whose hands (and feet) are literally turning into leaves? They look exactly like this: (http://www.italyperfect.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/ApolloDaphneFeature.jpg) Daphne who, seen here by Bernini in Ovid's Metamorphoses, is turning into a tree.
He was on the CNN APP, and lives in Bangladesh, but they are going to help him. I couldn't believe it. It's some rare skin condition.
Life imitates art.
That is such a cute sign on Julius Caesar, Bellamarie.
Frybabe, that is also a super modern definition tho of what we mean by the word Hubris: to be defined as overweening presumption that leads a person to disregard the divinely fixed limits on human action in an ordered cosmos.
That's it! Perfect! Of course it seems to me that Ovid was using it in the Athenian definition for Lycoan. Or was he?
How many times in how MANY myths do the gods disguise themselves and come among mortals?
Why, one wonders? This one sure backfired, or did Lycoan recognize him?
This is really good, Joan K:
I've been slow trying to pick up the "underlying cultural values" here, and of course that's one of them. If you get too big for your britches (or toga as the case may be) the gods will slap you down. You always have to appease or kowtow to them. A perfect mirror for the way you have to treat Augustus.
A perfect description also of the story of Arachne which comes up in Book 6.
Now I forgive Virgil for his constant, long winded praises of Augustus. he had probably learned this kind of behavior from childhood, and knew he had to do it to survive. It's put me off reading the Aeniad (sp). Now I'll just read it and skip those passages.
One can tell that the Aeneid was written to celebrate Augustus, so it's not surprising it's singing his praises. Augustus however never had a problem singing his own praises, check the Res Gestae. There was an hilarious film on that a couple of years back. If I can find it on YouTube I'll bring it here, I think they have taken it off, it's the Horrible Histories series: Rotten Romans.
I really liked the thought here that if WE can figure it out, certainly Augustus could have. It's not known WHEN Ovid wrote those bits. It IS known that 3 copies existed before his exile but did he add to them? His letters from exile suggest not. They say he was snatched before he could edit. But that's hard to believe.
So if he did not add this later on in anger, maybe he want a tad too far the first time. Idle speculation, but I wonder sometimes if THIS "carmen" did not help push him on his way, along with the others about how to seduce married women.
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Anotehr good point, JoanK:
[Lombardo] quotes Jupiter as saying "I swear that I have already tried everything else"
Kline's translation says "All means should first be tried,"I wonder if that is a mistake by Kline, or is Ovid ambiguous here? This is tricky, indeed.
What does everybody's translation have there? Those two are quite different, aren't they?
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Time to move on, and see where Jupiter's anger takes us. Let's start talking about the flood, then quickly add what comas after. For now:
Third section: The Flood
Bk I:244-273 Jupiter invokes the floodwaters
Bk I:274-292 The Flood
Bk I:293-312 The world is drowned
Those are Kline's divisions. It's through the point where everything left is starving, and just before the description of the country of Phocis and the entry of Deucalion and Pyrrha.
But we can still finish up what we're saying about the second section.
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Ginny, Martin says:
"...we have tried everything
to find a cure, but now the surgeon's blade
must cut away what is untreatable,
lest the infection spread to healthy parts."
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PatH, there are a few more days you can see five planets in the sky at once plus the moon. I saw Mercury and Venus the other morning just at dawn when the sky had already brightened up to a pale turquoise with a few orange tinted clouds. I was looking a little earlier this morning so Mercury was still in the haze and below the tree line. As I was looking this morning, I made note that Mars was almost directly south of me according to the map.
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/sky-at-a-glance/this-weeks-sky-at-a-glance-january-29-february-6/
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Ginny,
What does everybody's translation have there?
Mandelbaum's translation:
I swear on the infernal streams that glide
beneath the woods of Styx, that I have tried
all other means; and now I must excise
that malady which can't be cured: mankind__
lest the untainted beings on the earth
become infected, too. I have half-gods
and rustic deities__Nymphs, Satyrs, Fauns,
and woodland gods who haunt the mountain slopes:
we've not yet found them fit for heaven's honors,
but let's ensure their safety on the lands
we have assigned to them. Can you, o gods,
believe they are secure when I myself,
who am the lord of lightning and your lord,
met with the trap Lycaon set for me__
Lycaon, famed for his ferocity?"
Frybabe, I have an app on my ipad air that is called SkyView that allows me to see all that is in the sky inside my home. It's very fascinating, I have been teaching my two small grandkids the constellations, and how to stargaze with it. What time in the early morning hours are you able to see them in the sky outside your home? Do you have a large clearing open to viewing?
PatH., Let's start talking about the flood,
Oh joy! We are headed for the flood!! Perfect time for Noah and his ark. :)
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Here are a few pics I took of the planets lined up from my SkyView app today, and Virgo with Spica shining so bright!
Virgo with the bright star Spica
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/12647165_10208863987980369_1838287609119116715_n.jpg?oh=26fba44b31e30266283ff8b8ba744b40&oe=572A90B2)
Planets lined up.
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/12647090_10208864062902242_6767426865646040819_n.jpg?oh=f02e967dc019f1287c49d7fe4dee483c&oe=5742FBD9)
Here is Virgo and the bright star Spica with Jupiter and Mars above and below her.
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11225995_10208864085702812_7411613579511335743_n.jpg?oh=9b93624b8c21eceba431599d2be53716&oe=5731239B)
I can get lost with this app some days. I especially love watching the International space station at night. Okay, back to the poem.
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That's quite an app. I see Virgo is being Ceres here, since she has her sheaf of wheat in her hand. But when she's being Justice, her scales are handy--the constellation Libra next to her.
Do you know the trick for finding her if you don't have an app, with Arcturus along the way? Find the big dipper--that's easy, just look north--and continue the curve of it's handle (or the bear's tail if you see it as a bear) still curving. It makes an arc to Arcturus, then a spike to Spica.
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What a fun way to remmember that Pat. The Big Dipper is behind me when I stand out front.
Bellamarie, I have one on my Kindle, but I don't remember the name of it. It is really cool because it can be configured different ways and gives info on whatever you point to. I am generally up around 5am EST, so it was between 5:30am and 6:30am that I was out front today. Lucky for me that the street light is out (has been for a year) or I wouldn't get to see much of anything. My backyard had trees blocking and the houses on either side of me block some of the view.
Now I have to get busy reading the next section tonight.
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PatH.,
If you saw Spica, you saw Astraea, goddess of justice, the last of the immortals to give up and leave earth in the iron age, because Spica is in the constellation Virgo, who Kline says is Astraea when she isn't being Ceres/Demeter.
I found Arcturus and Spica but I could not find Astraea. Is it because as you stated, Kline says when Virgo isn't being Ceres/Demeter, which here you say she is Ceres? You never cease to amaze me with your knowledge Pat.
Frybabe, Yes, my app also has the capabilities you speak of. I just love it! 5:30 am and 6:30 am, oh dear, I am still snoozing at that time. I may have to attempt to set my alarm one morning though. Thank you!
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Most of the maps just call her Virgo. Aside from really bright Spica, all her stars aren't that noticeable. I had totally forgotten that Virgo was Astraea, though my star maps say so, but Kline's link said it.
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That's enough to make me want to get an Ipad! The light pollution in the LA area is so bad, I'm lucky if I see more than two stars in the sky at night.
When I worked, I had an app that told me where the moon was directly overhead at any time. So if I saw the daytime moon over the building across the street in DC, I knew it was shining directly down on the Sahara dessert!
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Probably late in the day for this - I just opened my email and found it - and so, if you are at home this evening you may want to tune in - The Harry Ransom Center is the museum at UT and they are doing all sorts of things this year to not only celebrate Shakespeare's 400 years but to keep up with other authors whose papers are stored here at UT.
This evening at 7: our time which would be 8: back east, there is a live webcast of the on stage reading of Richard III
here is the link...
http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/events/
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I don't see, from what you all put here, any proof that Jupiter HAD tried anything, much less all. Some are more vague than others, but it's fairly clear he's determined to avenge this wrong.
For sheer poetic beauty in words, tho, it's hard to beat this, is this what your texts say?
"Here's a man on a hilltop, and one in his curved skiff,
Rowing where just yesterday he plowed. Another one
Sails over acres of wheat or the roof of his farmhouse
Deep underwater. Here's someone catching a fish
In the top of an elm. Sometimes an anchor
Sticks in a green meadow, or keels brush the tops
of vineyards beneath. ...
...With no land in sight, no place to perch
The exhausted bird drops into the sea."
For some reason the fate of birds with nowhere to land had never occurred to me. Goodness that's dramatic, isn't it?
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JoanK., you would love having the ipad air to use for this app. My grandchildren spend hours on mine. They really love taking it outside in the summer nights and looking at it. But the great thing is all this is daytime as well! So amazing what technology has brought to us. I love how the app allows you to take a pic of what you are seeing and send it to Facebook, email etc.
Yes, PatH., all of Virgo's stars other than Spica are not noticeable. I kept trying to see them to no avail.
Ginny, which translation are you using? Mine is no where near as "poetic beauty" as yours.
Thank you Barb, I will try to watch this.
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Bellamarie, that's the Lombardo. It IS gorgeous, isn't it? I bet the Dryden would be close.
That "touching the top of the vineyards" really resonated with me, as I went up in a hot air balloon in California and the thing, in coming down did some brushing of the tops of vineyards of its own. A strange sensation and I am sure lots of damage incurred.
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I found this interesting comparison on the flood in Ovid's Metamorphoses and the Bible version, I highlighted a few things I personally saw stand out to me:
http://www.123helpme.com/assets/16303.html
The Flood and Creation in Ovid's Metamorphoses and Genesis
Two Sources Cited "Where did man come from? Where did time begin? Who, or what, created
all things?" These are questions that mankind has sought to answer from the
beginning of existence as it is known today. Many stories and fables have been
told and passed down from generation to generation, yet two have survived the
test of time and criticism. The Biblical account in Genesis, probably written
by Moses around 1500 B.C., and the story of creation and flood in Ovid's
Metamorphosis, written somewhere between 8 and 17 A.D., have weathered the
criticism and become the most famous. The Genesis account, however, may be the
most prominent of the two accounts. Within these accounts, are many
similarities, as well as differences, which make these two writings well
respected, while holding their own in the literary world.
Though both accounts of the creation and flood are well respected on
their own, when compared side to side, they are drastically different. Ovid's
purpose for writing the creation story is geared more towards explaining
creation as it happens, in his opinion, whereas the Bible stresses the fact that
the God of the Hebrews is responsible for the world's existence today. Overall,
Ovid is very detailed in explaining the formless mass, creation of the earth,
waters and land metaphorically. The Biblical account seems to be more plain,
simple, and organized; not spending time on intricate detail. There seems to be
no specific time frame for creation in Ovid's writing, whereas, the Bible states
that it takes God six days to complete His creation; resting on the seventh. In
Metamorphoses, the creation story is seven stanzas, a compilation of eighty
lines. It takes Moses thirty- one verses of Old Testament history to complete
his story of creation.
There are a few discrepancies in detail as well. The water, in Ovid's,
"[holds] up, [holds] in the land," while, in Genesis, the land "[separates] the
waters from the waters" (549; 1:9). In Metamorphoses the air, land, light and
water (as humans know it) seems to form at one instant when "God, or kindlier
Nature, [settles] all"(549). In Genesis however, light; heaven; land and
vegetation; stars, sun and moon; fish; animals and man are created on separate
days.
Though these two writings are different in many respects, they are
strikingly similar as well. Both are great and beautiful poems that continue to
stand the test of time. They are also written for the purpose of explaining or
answering some question, whether that be who, what, or how time and existence,
as it is known today, came to pass.
Both poems give credit for creation to a supreme being or supernatural
beings. Ovid states that "the gods, who [make] the changes, will help me--or I
hope so--with a poem"(548). Genesis 1:1 states, "In the beginning God [creates]
the heavens and the earth."
In both accounts, each describe a "shapelessness" and the earth being
"formless and void"(549;1:2). There is also "no sun to light the universe,"(Ovid,
549) so "darkness [is] over the surface of the deep"(Genesis 1:2). There is
also water, but "water, which no man [can] swim," in both accounts(Ovid, 549).
In Genesis, the "Spirit of God [is] moving over the surface of the water,"
before any of creation exists(1:2).
Much like the stories of creation in the Bible and Metamorphoses, the
accounts of the flood in each are very similar while holding firmly to their
differences.
Like the creation story in Metamorphoses, the flood story gives no
specific time frame for the length of the flood. However, Genesis gives a
detailed time frame for this event. The rains last "forty days and forty
nights"(7:12). When the rain stops, "the water [prevails] upon the earth for
one hundred and fifty days"(7:24). After ten months, the mountain tops [become]
visible(8:5). At the end of one year, one month, and twenty- seven days, Noah,
his family, and the various animals exit the ark (8:13-18). Another very obvious
difference is the descriptiveness in Ovid's story, whereas Moses simply explains
that all are breathing creation dies, except for those set aside by God.
The biggest difference between these two account comes in explaining
existence after the flood. In Metamorphoses, Deucalion and Pyrrha, the two
survivors, throw stones over each of his and her shoulder. The stones that
Deucalion throw become men, and the ones that Pyrrha toss, turn into women(Ovid
559). In Genesis all of the earth is populated by Noah, his wife, Shem, Ham,
Japheth, along with their wives(9:1,7). In Ovid's tale, the animals of the
earth form, or evolve, from heat and water amongst the mud(559). The creatures
of the earth repopulate themselves in Genesis(8:17).
Just as these stories have had their differences, they also share
features and qualities. The flood, in each story, is sent upon mankind because
of immorality and disobedience to God or the gods in which the subjects worship.
It is also very strange that the deity, or deities, in control, decide to
destroy mankind with flooding. In both accounts, only one family is "chosen" or
"spared" to continue existence of the human race. In Metamorphoses it was
Deucalion and Phyrrha. And Noah's family is chosen by God in Genesis. Both
families seem to be in a right standing with God, or the gods, when the flood
occurs. It is very interesting to notice that in both accounts, as soon as the
families are delivered safely from the flood, each worship and show reverence to
God, or the gods, in ultimate control(556; 8:20-22). Also, both accounts of the
flood, give some explanation, though very different, for the survival of the
human race and animal species.
As one can see, when comparing each of the accounts of the flood and
creation in Ovid's Metamorphoses and Genesis, there are some very similar
actions or events that take place in each of these accounts, while separating
themselves a great deal by putting emphasis on very different messages. It is
because of these variations in writing and technique that each of these poems
have acquired and maintained the respect they truly deserve through many years
of evaluation and criticism.
Works Cited
New American Standard Bible. Nashville, TN: Broadman 1977.
Ovid. Metamorphoses. The Norton Anthology of World Masterpieces. Ed. Maynard
Mack. 5th edition. New York: Norton 1987. 549-560.
Partner sites: and Free Essays and Term Papers
____________________________________________________
What I found really interesting is how Ovid yet again, uses another form of creating man and woman, by Deucalion and Pyrrha, the two survivors throwing stones over each of his and her shoulder. Whereas, in Genesis it stays consistent with God the creator, and man and woman procreating.
Ovid just seems all over the place with this poem. If I didn't know any better I would think he was high on opium when he wrote it........ Just kidding. ;D
Ginny, yes the Lombardo version is very beautifully translated. I like yours much more than mine.
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Dryden's translation, is not nearly as beautiful as Lombardo's
Dryden
"One climbs a cliff; one in his boat is born:
And ploughs above, where late he sow’d his corn.
Others o’er chimney-tops and turrets row,
And drop their anchors on the meads below:
Or downward driv’n, they bruise the tender vine,
Mandelbaum
"One man seeks refuge on a hill, another__
rows in his curving boat where, just before,
he's plowed; one sails across his fields of grain
or over the submerged roof of his villa;
sometimes an anchor snags in a green meadow;
sometimes a curving keel may graze the vines....
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I think Lombardo wins on that particular passage. Here's Martin, also pretty good, and he gets off a good pun:
One takes to the hills, another to his skiff,
rowing where once he plowed the earth in rows,
while yet another sails above his grainfields,
or glimpses, far below, his sunken villa;
and here in the topmost branches of an elm
is someone casting out a fishing line;
an anchor grazes in a meadow's grasses,
or a curved keel sweeps above a vineyard,
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Bellamarie, that's a very thorough, useful comparison of the Bible and Ovid.
There's another important ancient flood story. Has anyone read Gilgamesh?
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Yes! Gilgamesh!
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I remember seeing a program a couple of years or so that speculated that many flood legends around the Mediterranean stemmed from a possible massive deluge from the Black Sea due to the melt off of the end of the Ice age. It is a controversial theory but seems to have some scientific evidence.
Here are a couple of links.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/evidence-suggests-biblical-great-flood-noahs-time-happened/story?id=17884533
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2000/12/122800blacksea.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis
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chase after we read in For Love of Lakes about the gigantic lake Agassiz that finally breached widening a stream to the great Mississippi and all the northern lakes where the ice age had eroded rock leaving pockets of lake water it seems very reasonable that the flood often mentioned in several creation stories could have been just that - the breaching of the Black Sea.
Found several sites that give us a run down on the various creation myths - this one is nicely organized with a brief synopsis of the various myths
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?ParagraphID=bjh
And I like this one since is includes a couple of the myths from our native American tribes. Interesting both the Blackfoot myth and the Navajo myth include a flood - I wonder from which continent - when, I wonder in history where these myths started - both tribes could have been affected by the Agassiz breach or do the go back to a time before the crossing into America - although now we are hearing the crossing may be a myth we have created that ancient skeletons found on the west coast of South America are far older than anyone imagined and now the thought is the tribes in North American could have come for the people in South America.
Anyhow here is the second link again with a synopsis of the creation myth that all are more elaborate than simply saying a God power did it all.
http://listverse.com/2014/01/11/10-creation-myths-as-strange-as-the-bible/
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Reaction - at least the Norse myth does not include gods eating their offspring or creating a shame based society. Even the caste system has at its core a worthy and non-worthy grouping that is shame based.
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Chase, thanks for reminding us of the Black Sea story. It's exciting to think they might pin down that particular flood.
Barb, it's indeed interesting that some of the Native Americans have flood stories too.
now we have creation stories from around the world.
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PatH.,
Has anyone read Gilgamesh?
No, I have not, but will put that on my TBR list.
Well, look what I found on Gilgamesh!! A very interesting article.
http://creation.com/noahs-flood-and-the-gilgamesh-epic
While researching, I found there are at least, 10,000 or more writings on the creation and flood.
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I also wonder if the importance put to all these flood legends and myths could be to a cleansing or rebirth, as in baptism or other ritual baths.
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Chase, very good point and I so agree.
I have no doubt the purpose and meaning for all the floods are due to cleansing and rebirth, and with those come new hope. Whether you believe in a God who controls all nature and beings, Norse myth, or you scientifically see it happening as in the book For Love of Lakes, etc., essentially either way it happens, it does in fact bring about a cleansing and rebirth. Just look at the seasons changing and the saying, "April showers, bring May flowers." Every rain shower brings a cleansing, even though I might add a bit too much rain does indeed create extreme problems of ruin, as it did to my basement last June, and other situations around the states. But once it stopped, and I cleaned and renovated my basement, which took months to do, I look at the finished product and am in awe of how beautiful it is now! Just as I am sure God saw the earth, after the aftermath of the flood.
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Thanks, Bellamarie, that link saves me from having to summarize the Gilgamesh flood story. Most of the story is there, but I'll add a few details. The poem is both incomplete and exists in several versions. In one, the reason the gods want to get rid of mankind is they have become too numerous, and are making too much noise.
The gods had a council, as in Ovid, and swore not to tell mankind what was going to happen, but the god Ea managed to leak it to Utnapishtim, who got his whole town to help him build his cubical boat. U. took a lot of people with him, including many craftsmen, so he could remake civilization.
When the gods saw the violence of the catastrophe they regretted what they had done, but some were still mad at Ea for saving some people. Ea urged the other gods to be more moderate in their punishments from then on.
Utnapishtim and his wife were granted eternal life, and Gilgamesh tracked him down to learn the secret.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/DeucalionRubens.jpg)
Deucalion and Phrrha
by Artist
Peter Paul Rubens (1577–1640)
Date 1636
Prado Museum
(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free. Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
For Your Consideration:
Week Two: Gods and men learn to interact January 26--?
First section: The Four Ages
Bk I:89-112 The Golden Age
Bk I:113-124 The Silver Age
Bk I:125-150 The Bronze Age
1. Have you heard other versions of the Four Ages? Where did Ovid get this story?
2. Why do you think the ages progress from better to worse instead of the other direction?
3. The Golden Age sounds wonderful, doesn't it? What would your idea of a "Golden Age" feature?
4. What is your favorite line from Ovid about the Golden Age?
5. What was it that turned the Golden Age into the Silver Age?
6. What is "Classical Mythology?" Do you have time to watch less than 10 minutes of Dr. Roger Travis of UCONN explain what "The Rudy Thing" is, so we can discuss it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY)
Second Section: Giants and Lycaon
Bk I:151-176 The giants
Bk I:177-198 Jupiter threatens to destroy humankind
Bk I: 199-243 Lycaon is turned into a wolf
1. What are the Giants? Why is this chapter there? Does it accomplish anything?
2. We now meet the Pantheon of Gods for the first time. The imagery here is spectacular. What line or lines particularly struck you in the writing about their conference?
3. A direct reference is made to Augustus for the first time in this poem. Who is he being likened to? Why?
4. What would the Romans have seen as Lycaon’s real offense?
Third section: The Flood
Bk I:244-273 Jupiter invokes the floodwaters
Bk I:274-292 The Flood
Bk I:293-312 The world is drowned
1. What other ancient flood stories do you know? How is this one the same or different?
2. Are the other gods wholeheartedly behind Jupiter’s plan? Why or why not? Do you think Jupiter was justified in bringing the flood?
3. During the flood, what would happen to the nymphs and other forest spirits Jupiter is supposedly protecting.
Fourth section: Life returns
Bk I:313-347 Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha
Bk I:348-380 They ask Themis for help
Bk I:381-415 The human race is re-created
Bk I:416-437 Other species are generated
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
I seem to remember reading that either the Incas or the Aztecs had a flood story similar to ours. It was used to hypothesize early contact with Europe, I'm not convinced. The Americas had an ice age too. And the desire to want to explain natural disasters and to do so as anger of a superior being seems common.
this whole passage in the Lombardo translation is amazing! I'm so glad I read it.
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Ok if we are using the Bible as a source the 'giants' are mentioned - here is a web site talking about the giants of the Bible.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Anakim.html
Numbers 13:22
Sheshai, and Ahiman, and Talmai, the children of Anak; the very same giants Caleb saw at Hebron, when he was sent a spy into the land,
Another Translation:
They went up through the Negev and came to Hebron, where Ahiman, Sheshai and Talmai, the descendants of Anak, lived. (Hebron had been built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.)
Genesis 6:4
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
Deuteronomy 9:2
The people are strong and tall--Anakites! You know about them and have heard it said: "Who can stand up against the Anakites?"
Numbers 13:33
We even saw giants there, the descendants of Anak. Next to them we felt like grasshoppers, and that's what they thought, too!"
Other Translation
We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."
And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
And there we saw giants, the sons of Anak, of the race of the giants; and we were in our own sight as locusts, and so we were in their sight.
And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, who come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
Verse 33. - The giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants, אֶת־הַנְּפִילים בְּנִי עַנָק מִן־הַנְּפִלים. The Nephilim, Beni-Anak, of the Nephilim. The Septuagint has only τοὺς γίγαντας. The Nephilim are, without doubt, the primaeval tyrants mentioned under that name in Genesis 6:4. The renown of these sons of violence had come down from those dim ages, and the exaggerated fears of the spies saw them revived in the gigantic forms of the Beni-Anak.
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here among several translations of Genesis is... "And Sarah died at Koriath Gabarey (the Town of the Giants); that is Hebron in the land of Canaan; and Abraham came to mourn for Sarah and to weep for her."
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I have fallen behind, but not too far. The far-ranging comments on the war with the Giants, the resulting creation of men in the form of gods, Jupiter's wrath, and his cleansing flood took me to unfamiliar places, forgotten bits of ancient history and new poet-translators. Thanks all.
Ovid seems to have narratives for the creation of man. The first produces the creatures shaped either by the Master Architect or Prometheus; the second produces the wicked creatures sprung from the blood of the Giants who provoke Zeus to wipe out all mankind but one pious couple; and the third involves their off-spring after the deluge subsides. Ovid does not seem to worry about reconciling these narratives.
Jupiter's council of the gods is easily read as a metaphor for Augustus and the Senate. Jupiter convenes the major gods on Olympus, (which Ovid compares to the Palatine where Augustus lives), but only so they can hear what he has already decided. Per Lombardo "Some of the gods voiced their approval and even/ Goaded him on, while others playacted their silent consent,...."
That same approach is reiterated when Jupiter describes, post facto, the punishment of Lycaon. He has already turned Lycaon into a howling wolf without any consultation about condign punishment.
The Lycaon episode also appears to be the first of Ovid's stories about disguised interaction between the gods and humankind. Jupiter assumes human form to test Lycaon, but gives "a sign that a god has come." Ovid doesn't say what that sign was, but it was apparently clear enough that "the common people began to pray." Lycaon, unfortunately for him, insisted on a test tainted by cannabalism. What if he had asked for a less horrid test, for example like turning water into wine. Would he have been turned into a grape-vine?
In contrast to direct interaction, Decaulion and Pyrrha proceeded through the "oracular response" of Themis, who was married to Zeus, but got along with Hera (A Smaller Classical Dictionary, 1910). Her response seems closer to the Old Testament's prophets than the direct interventions by the Graeco-Roman gods.
It seems to me that from time-to-time, Ovid was dressing Augustus in a Zeus-suit, but just to mock him and the sycophants who supported his dictatorship.
Decaulion and Pyrrha proceeded under the "oracular response" of Themis
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'...the desire to want to explain natural disasters and to do so as anger of a superior being seems common.'
Your comment, Joan, got me thinking. What a curious 'history lesson' has been made of the deluge that covered the earth and left such a strange memory for all ages. And strange to see the use Ovid makes of it. Some fine poetry with a nasty political message. Perhaps exile was too good for him.
I don't want to be seen as nitpicking when I wonder if Zeus would ever have destroyed his creation as the Roman Jupiter did to satisfy his anger. And I have to wonder why the author of Genesis was tempted to include this unique event in his historical account. I have to rethink that. So much life destroyed! Was it truly an Act of God?
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Well it looks like Lombardo got the prize that time! Thank you for all those submissions of different translations, it really is good isn't it ? Just beautiful and he really captures I think what Ovid was trying to say there.... in that it's a description of animals and trees and yet he really gets across the terrific pathos of it while kind of skipping human emotions here...he seems to be withdrawing a little bit.
And he's focusing on animals swimming which normally would be fighting and they're struggling for their lives ....and all the crops he's talking about crops and trees, not the people --there's not much here on the agony of the people caught up in this thing. Which is interesting. Especially for somebody to put so much emotion into the old Greek myths bring them to life.
Wonderful points, Howard! You're right, there doesn't seem to be too much continuity in the narrative, does there? It's definitely a continuing poem but I don't know if it's a continuous narrative. As he said it would be. I really liked your point about Lycaon. That Jupiter announces it after he's done it, but it sort of makes a statement, if you follow the allegory theory of Augustus as Jupiter and if he's paralleling Augustus, it sort of makes a statement about him too, doesn't it? It really makes you rethink sometimes what Ovid was really banished for.
Jonathan makes a good point. There were other Greek versions of the great flood. In fact I think there were at least three. I can't recall specifically if Zeus was actually involved in all three or even if he was involved in one ---it would be make interesting reading.
I believe the Gilgamesh also has pre-diluvian Giants .
But all that again is putting his own touch on this we don't have any human pathos in this at all -- very good question by Pat what about all the nymphs and forest spirits that Jupiter said he was trying to protect? Do we assume that they developed water wings.... or ?
The whole world is flooded: everything and everybody is going to die or has died and then .......
Ovid's purpose is not to write a religious tract.. he's not writing about religion at all....he's writing of change, metanmorphoses, his whole theme is change so he's created his own world, peopled by the things that he wants. He's populated it with ancient myths that he is changing to suit himself. Satire? Allegory? Is he too flippant? It's almost a shape shifting thing from moment to moment. Which is what he said it would be. Some of the most beautiful descriptions anywhere to come.
Jonathan why do you say exile was too good for him? That's an interesting statement.
Do we have anything in western literature like this? I'm thinking Alice in Wonderland? I don't read a lot of science fiction but is the category of fantasy even remotely anything like this?
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Howshap, I like your summing-up. Thanks for pointing out that Themis was married to Zeus; I didn't know that, and Kline's index doesn't mention it. Here's a copious amount about her. She shows up later in Ovid, too.
http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisThemis.html (http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisThemis.html)
"dressing Augustus in a Zeus-suit" That's good.
Jonathan:
I wonder if Zeus would ever have destroyed his creation as the Roman Jupiter did to satisfy his anger
Zeus was milder than Jupiter, so maybe he wouldn't.
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It's about time to dry off. We can transition smoothly into the story of Deucalion and Pyrra, and the re-creation.
Bk I:313-347 Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha
Bk I:348-380 They ask Themis for help
Bk I:381-415 The human race is re-created
Bk I:416-437 Other species are generated
This goes up to the birth of Python. As always, we can continue what we're already saying too.
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Ginny,
Ovid's purpose is not to write a religious tract.. he's not writing about religion at all....he's writing of change, metamorphoses, his whole theme is change so he's created his own world, peopled by the things that he wants. He's populated it with ancient myths that he is changing to suit himself.
Metamorphoses is indeed about changes, and not to write a religious tract, but you can not ignore the similarities, thus comparing some parts of his poem to the writings in the Bible, no different than comparing his similarities to Homer, Virgil, etc., just as many scholars have done. The fact he uses the gods, creation, flood etc., makes for a discussion you would be remiss to ignore. Ovid has definitely made this his own work of art, no one would dispute that. He lacks order, believability, consistency, making it a true work of fiction. Although, Augustus could see it had it's political undertones, and immoral substance, which possibly caused his reason to exile Ovid.
PatH., When you asked what about all the nymphs and forest spirits that Jupiter said he was trying to protect, my theory is Jupiter used that as an excuse to wipe out all of mankind. He was furious Lycaon tried to kill him in his sleep and makes that an argument. Outraged, Jupiter decides to punish humanity with a flood, because of their piety. Pretty sure it had nothing to do with protecting the lesser animals.
He tells them that he plans to kill all the humans – apparently because he means to protect all the demigods like Nymphs, Satyrs, and Fauns that still live on earth.
He asks, "How can they be safe if Lycaon could pull such a trick on me, the king of the gods?"
For me I had to laugh at this argument. Jupiter the "king of gods" was duped by Lycaon? No one even knew who Lycaon was. ??? ???
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I guess the thing that gobsmacked me the most was this concept of Giants - when I read what I never knew and I found in a reference we were all familiar giants being mentioned I've been in a state of shock so to speak ever since.
What, How, sounds too much like science fiction - even if it is a mythological fantasy that they built a mountain to reach the heavens the fact that giants existed is still baffling to me - I am wanting to assume they were very tall real people as - and I cannot remember their name - the tribe in Africa that herd cattle. Or since they were in existence before the flood did these floods take in more of the earth's surface than we imagined and these 'giants' were wiped out.
I can buy easily the story of the break in the Black Sea - have no idea how the Mediterranean happened and that could be an answer assuming these Giants actually came from Africa - saw a PBS show last week that showed the Egyptians, before Greek culture, fought and lost to a tribe that were not called giants but were tall people and they became the rulers of Egypt which makes me think if these giants were in or from Africa they would not have been directly affected by the flood.
All very curious and maybe since there are no definitive answers is why we do not hear of giants even during a Bible study with many of the translations of the Bible omitting the word altogether. And so now I do not know what to believe - where they real or a literary fantasy towards making a myth - If real what constituted the size of a giant and where did they come from - not finding an answer for a question drives me insane.
Back to Ovid's structure - this reminds me of a legal brief - all the points to prove a thesis - or even a math equation - nothing in real depth - almost as if the points are general knowledge and therefore, no in-depth story explaining, he is simply listing them to show how these changes fit his thesis of metamorphose. Almost as if he is building to a set of new thoughts that may portend a story that will explain what he really has in mind but before he gets there he has to set up the field.
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Barb, very good analysis.
With all due respect to this creative poem and to the creator of it Ovid, I must say I see he is making it up as he goes along, and what I find inconsistent is the fact he has creation of mankind coming from all different angles. While he had his reasons, possibly political, and amoral, he goes beyond limits like no other. I am not passing judgement or criticism, just stating how I see it. Not even saying I would expect him to stay within any type of boundaries. It is indeed his creative mind!
Barb, even if it is a mythological fantasy that they built a mountain to reach the heavens the fact that giants existed is still baffling to me
This particular part of the poem reminded me of the Tower of Bable. (Sorry for referring once again to the Bible, I just can't avoid mention the similarities.)
The people of Babel said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth." (NIV). The descendants of Noah all spoke a single language.
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BARB:"Almost as if he is building to a set of new thoughts that may portend a story that will explain what he really has in mind but before he gets there he has to set up the field."
That's really interesting. I too got the feeling of "setting the stage" at the beginning when Ovid was getting the world going. But once we got to the council of the gods, I felt he was really into it.
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Ginny,
Do we have anything in western literature like this? I'm thinking Alice in Wonderland? I don't read a lot of science fiction but is the category of fantasy even remotely anything like this?
2001: A Space Odyssey comes immediately to mind. Any what about all those Scifi stories about AI becoming sentient? They are not on the cataclysmic scale of Metamorphoses, though. Maybe some of the colony building books that include terraforming a planet to make it habitable for humans. One of Jack McDevitt's Priscilla Hutchins books featured doing just that.
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So, all the animals have drowned, and all the humans except one couple, Deucalion and Pyrrha, who make their way to the one remaining bit of land. Why those two? were they chosen, or is it simply an accident?
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PatH.,
Why those two? were they chosen, or is it simply an accident?
No, it was not by accident. I read they were more obedient and righteous, and were warned what was coming by Prometheus the father of Deucalion.
Here is a interesting article that claims there actually were other survivors: Hmmm....
The Bronze generation, however, was very corrupt. Zeus was angered by their impiety and sent a Great Deluge to the envelop the earth and destroy them. Only Deukalion and Pyrrha survived--having been warned of the impending calamity by Prometheus, they mounted a chest and sailed to the dry peaks of Mount Parnassos. Other Greek regions also claimed survivors--King Dardanos was said to have sought refuge on Mount Ida in the Troad, Kerambos was carried to the heights of Mount Othrys by the Nymphs, Megaros fled to Mount Gerana, Arkas and Nyktimos were preserved on Mount Kyllene in Arkadia, and the tribe of Parnassos fled to the heights above Delphoi. Io and her son Epaphos, who lived in Egypt, were also preserved.
http://www.theoi.com/Heros/Deukalion.html
When Zeus decided to end the Bronze Age with the great deluge, Deucalion and his wife, Pyrrha, were the only survivors. Even though he was imprisoned, Prometheus who could see the future and had foreseen the coming of this flood told his son, Deucalion, to build an ark and, thus, they survived. During the flood, they landed on Mount Parnassus, the only place spared by the flood.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrha
Deucalion and Pyrrha. Zeus allowed only two pious mortals to be saved, DEUCALION [dou-kay'li-on] or DEUKALION (the Greek Noah), the son of Prometheus, and his wife PYRRHA [pir'ra], the daughter of Epimetheus. When the flood subsided they found themselves in their little boat stranded on Mt. Parnassus. They were dismayed to discover that they were the only survivors and consulted the oracle of Themis about what they should do.
http://global.oup.com/us/companion.websites/9780195397703/student/materials/chapter4/summary/
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So, we are descended from stones! I wonder if this will come up later in discussing our nature!
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Now, let me see if I can summarize where I am with the text. I am not a reader of fantasy, science fiction, or anything else that goes beyond my ability to suspend belief. When animals think and talk, when extra-terrestial beings land in New York, or when Alice falls down the rabbit hole, I turn off. I used to lump mythology right there with fantasy. Ovid is making this up as he goes along, just as all writers of fiction do, creating a world that will be familiar to the Romans. So, on the level of story telling, he is writing down the myths that the people already know, to show that change, some for the better and some for the worse, will befall man and will touch society. Maybe he is doing what myth makers have always done: He answers questions that have puzzled all humanity at one time or another. Why do natural disasters happen? Why are men always waging war? Where did we come from? What is the nature of man?
This is how Ovid explains how being created from stones affected the character of man
"And so we are a tough breed, used to hard labor,
And we are living proof of our origin." 430-431
It also shows the reader that in Ovid's Rome, being from a tough breed is valued.
Anyway, here I am reading myths and really enjoying them. I will continue to look to myth for answers about the people who created the myths and the societies they lived in.
I wonder if we in 2016 are still creating myths to explain what we don't know or understand?
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I wonder if we in 2016 are still creating myths to explain what we don't know or understand?
I think we definitely are. Case in point: Punxatawny Phil. :)
So, on the level of story telling, he is writing down the myths that the people already know, to show that change, some for the better and some for the worse, will befall man and will touch society. Maybe he is doing what myth makers have always done: He answers questions that have puzzled all humanity at one time or another. Why do natural disasters happen? Why are men always waging war? Where did we come from? What is the nature of man?
I agree. Deucalion and Pyrrha are old myths, before Ovid's time. Apollodorus and Hyginus both told different versions. Apollodorus was interested in Deucalions's father being Prometheus.
I love this part of the story. I love Lombardo's wonderful translation of the turning from stones into people, it sounds exactly like the Invasion of the Body Snatchers 2.
The imagery there in Ovid is incredible. I would have never figured out that the bones of one's mother were the earth.
Here's a lovely bit of tenderness between Deucalion and Pyrrha:
These clouds
Still strike terror in my heart. Poor soul,
What would you feel like now if the Fates
Had taken me and left you behind? How could you bear
Your fear alone? Who could comfort your grief?
You can be sure that if the sea already held you,
I would follow you, my wife, beneath the sea.
Oh, if only I could restore the people of the world
By my father's arts, breathe life into molded clay!
Now the human race rests on the two of us,
We are, by the gods' will, the last of our kind.
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Mkaren, I'm glad you're finding enjoyment in Ovid. I hadn't read him until this discussion was proposed, but have definitely gotten hooked. It really is a window into a different mindset, and how these people tried to answer the unanswerable. Are we still creating myths? Surely we are. I'm too close to see what they are, though.
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Bellamarie, I'm glad you posted those links. They show what Ovid has left out, because he never says that Prometheus warned Deucalion of the flood. In Ovid, the fact that Deucalion and Pyrrha are the last people left is random, their boat is described as a "raft" or a "small skiff", not what you would build. But once they are the only ones left, their piety is the reason Jupiter makes the waters recede and lets them survive.
Is this left-out detail important to Ovid, or just part of the condensing process? He leaves out, adds, and changes to suit himself.
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The poetry in Ovid: Ginny points out the wonderful tenderness in Deucalion's speech to Pyrrha, which Lombardo translates particularly well.
There's another passage in this section I particularly liked. Jupiter has decided to stop the flooding, and Neptune has ordered Triton to sound the retreat of the waters.
Old Triton lifted the hollow, spiraling shell
Whose sound fills the shores on both sides of the world
When he gets his lungs into it out in mid-ocean.
When this horn touched the sea god's lips, streaming
With brine from his dripping beard and sounded the retreat.
Latin scholars, help. There's a lot of rhythmical similarity in lines 2, 3, and 4, and grammatical similarity in 3 and 4. How does this play out in Latin?
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PatH.,
He leaves out, adds, and changes to suit himself.
Yes, he does. What do you all think of the fact in this particular article it states there were others who survived the flood?
Other Greek regions also claimed survivors--King Dardanos was said to have sought refuge on Mount Ida in the Troad, Kerambos was carried to the heights of Mount Othrys by the Nymphs, Megaros fled to Mount Gerana, Arkas and Nyktimos were preserved on Mount Kyllene in Arkadia, and the tribe of Parnassos fled to the heights above Delphoi. Io and her son Epaphos, who lived in Egypt, were also preserved.
Indeed we continue to make up our own myths of today, the most recent one is,Star Wars the Awakening, and all of the Star Wars movies are fantastic, and mythical. And what about these movies, Hercules, Clash of the Titans, Brother Where Art Thou takes on Homer's Oydessey, Harry Potter, The Hunger Games, the list goes on and on. Could you imagine a world without the creativity of Ovid, Shakespeare, George Lucas, Rod Serling, J K Rowling, or Lewis Carroll to name a few.
Have a day of grandkids today, basketball tournaments for two of them and then a sleepover with the littlest ones. I'll check back in later. It's going to be a sunny above temps day here in Ohio!!
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Bellamarie:
What do you all think of the fact in this particular article it states there were others who survived the flood?
I'm guessing each of those localities wanted the glory for their own turf.
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Either that or they did not know of each-others stories - I remember not too long ago there was I think a travel show on PBS but something that had a small group with camera visiting some folks who live in the mountains of what was Yugoslavia and their practices and traditional behavior was like something we would have read taking place several hundred years ago that was still the active lifestyle today in spite of all the wars and change in Europe - these folks lived in a more isolated area where sheep was about the only thing they could raise which meant only brief exchanges with the outside world when the wool and hides were sold.
I am thinking with the population as it was during the time in history that when this flood happened there were probably all sorts of small pockets of folks who escaped onto higher ground.
As to the flood having a moral implication, I think is man-made. Man trying to make sense out of what was not known yet how the earth functions and so the cause must be from the hand of some invisible power.
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Two good points, Barb.
Something else I wondered: when Jupiter told the other gods his plans, they objected that there would be nobody to keep incense burning on their altars, he
"...promised them a new race,
different from the first, from a wondrous origin."
These just look like more humans to me. Are they what Jupiter meant, or did he change his plans after he let Deucalion and Pyrrha survive?
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GROUNDHOG DAY: I love groundhog day -- an example of us modern, scientific people using an old myth to predict the weather. The myth dates back at least 300 years, and was brought to the US by German settlers. Punxsutawney PHIL first strutted his stuff in 1886.
http://www.stormfax.com/ghogday.htm
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Of course, no one really believes in the poor groundhog. But the myth could have been based on a peculiarity of German weather, where Spring was always preceded by weeks of cloudy weather.
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Today we believe in our religion - as science shows us the rational for some of our beliefs we still see the ultimate source of the universe before the big bang as something that many prefer to call God - our belief in a God is not only strong but as all gods are explained they are a source of moral direction and making sense of the confusion that is the universe, offering us comfort that something greater is at the basis of all we do not understand - this gives us a sense of security.
Throughout history many of us have wanted a oneness to bring together the duality that divided - water from earth - man from animal - north from south etc. For as many of us that desire a oneness there are those who see each aspect of nature as a separate god as the Hindu, Shintoists etc.
With that in mind I think the Romans believed in their religion that incorporated many gods, each with a limited power and a story that explained how they obtained their power, what they have done with their power and as we honor the power of One God through ceremony, alters, music, art, etc. so too did the Romans honor their multiple gods -
We do not minimize the story of Buddha or the practice of young boys wearing the saffron robe for a year as they learn through living the life of a Bhikkhus and so I think it is our own hubris suggesting these stories of the Roman and Greek gods are only to be explained as one step up from a fairytale -
Yes, Santa has become many things to many people however, there are a couple of historical prototypes for St. Nickolas that reading those stories we take the concept of giving and being worthy to receive on to a different plain. As we read about the devotions and temples to these Roman gods, the people at the time must have not only believed but put a great amount of faith and devotion into these gods with their stories that seem today to be ludicrous.
Actually, is telling a story of one god eating another or several any worse than our intimate practice of eating bread and drinking wine during a service that is honoring the directive given to us by someone who lived 2000 years ago - We take this ritual very seriously as if eating the body and blood of Christ - Just saying that to a person not of the faith they could easily scratch their head and think we all have a cannibalistic nature at heart.
But the act is symbolic - and so too I think the stories of the gods are symbolic towards something greater - it was fine for the enemies of Rome like Judaism and Christianity to minimize and belittle worshiping these many gods but must we carry on this dis-respect today simply because the religious practice is not within our idea of God and the stories told about these gods are so different than the stories of man's interaction with angles, and voices taking place before the time of Christ.
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BARB:"must we carry on this dis-respect today simply because the religious practice is not within our idea of God and the stories told about these gods are so different."
I agree. That's why I came back and deleted the post you referred to before I saw your post.
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I do wonder about some stories of animals being sensitive to coming changes in the weather. I don't know enough about it, but it's quite possible that some animals could sense changes in pressure or other early warnings that we miss.
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Ginny, your Lombardo translation seems to make everything sound almost romantic, and so wonderful. I really like it.
PatH., and Barb, good points on why there were others who survived the flood.
JoanK., I do think because animals must live more closely to the earth and rely on it for shelter and food, probably could "sense changes in pressure or other early warnings that we miss". I swear my dog senses a thunderstorm before I ever hear the thunder.
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Why do you suppose Ovid says the python was created against earth's will? And what is the purpose of creating a python, only to kill it?
And it was then that earth, against her will,
had to engender you, enormous Python,
a horrid serpent, new to all men's eyes__
a sight that terrified the reborn tribes;
you body filled up all the mountainside.
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Joan your post got me thinking and thanks because I never realized while reading these myths it was as if reading the life of a saint and yet, to the Romans these gods were no less meaningful - your post helped me see that especially, since my education included accepting these gods as 'less than' and not as 'real' gods - yes, almost like Santa Clause rather than as if a St. Nickolas.
I also wonder if Ovid is not so much building us up with a lot of facts known at the time to a big revelation but rather, showing all the ways metamorphose explains our world that at the time, rather than stating something new Ovid was making connections that had been overlooked or not seen from a viewpoint of change.
Well if his intent was to instigate change in those who read his work he sure accomplished that much for me, as I said, I realized how we were taught to understand and explain the gods was not honoring this symbolic life force for Romans and putting the Romans devotional practices on a questionable level believing them wanting in comparison to the Judaeo-Christian devotions. The western tradition is filled with trampling on those whose religious practices are different.
We may have the likes of a saint that morphed into Santa Clause where as, the Romans have gods that morphed into constellations of stars. Love it... 8)
Bellamarie I am thinking Ovid spoke of the serpent not so much as temptation, as in Adam and Eve but, as the symbol of repopulating after the flood - Roman boys wore the bulla, an amulet that contained a phallic charm, until they formally came of age. A sacred phallus was among the objects considered vital to the security of the Roman state which were in the keeping of the Vestal Virgins.
Since this is the horrid serpent it could be Ovid is referring to the python killed by Apollo to avenge his mother who was pursued by the god Python so she would not birth Apollo during daytime hours. That would also explain the god Python filling up the mountainside since he had to cover all the places that Apollo's mother could give birth.
The symbolism of the snake as 'Evil' versus 'Good' was thought ignored by the primitive Christian community. For several centuries the question was: If God is benevolent and omnipotent, why does He permit evil? And, if God is all-powerful how could he accept good and evil as divine forces? It was St. Augustine in the 5th century (over 500 years after Ovid's Metamorphoses) whose views on Satan as the Devil with all its symbolic representation of evil was accepted by the Christian community.
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I'm just curious why Ovid would say, " earth, against her will," I wasn't thinking along the line of the good vs evil symbol, more so I was wondering why earth would create something if it were against her will. I'm sure there is a reason for this to appear, other than:
To keep the memory of his great feat
alive, the god established sacred games;
and after the defeated serpent's name,
they were called Pythian. Here all young men
who proved to be the best at boxing or
at running or at chariot racing wore
a wreath of oak leaves as their crown of honor.
The serpent being created and then destroyed made me think of St. Patrick driving all the snakes out of Ireland. While searching you can find many arguments of this being a myth and that there actually were no snakes in Ireland.
St Patrick banishes the snakes from Ireland
The absence of snakes in Ireland gave rise to the legend that they had all been banished by St. Patrick chasing them into the sea after they attacked him during a 40-day fast he was undertaking on top of a hill. However, all evidence suggests that post-glacial Ireland never had snakes. Water has surrounded Ireland since the end of the last glacial period, preventing snakes from slithering over; before that, it was blanketed in ice and too chilly for the cold-blooded creatures. Scholars believe the snake story is an allegory for St Patrick’s eradication of pagan ideology.
The snake was the symbol of the Celts and their spiritual elite, the Druids - who inhabited the island of Ireland long before the arrival of Christianity in the 5th century AD. When Patrick arrived, the only “pesky and dangerous creatures” that St Patrick wished to cast away were the native Celts.
Since snakes often represent evil in literature, "when Patrick drives the snakes out of Ireland, it is symbolically saying he drove the old, evil, pagan ways out of Ireland [and] brought in a new age," said classics professor Philip Freeman of Luther College in Iowa.
Read more: http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-general/day-st-patrick-and-myth-snakes-being-cast-out-ireland-001455#ixzz3zUf8xACQ
Not intending to discuss St. Patrick, or if he did or did not banish snakes or what the snakes represented, my wonder is what or why does Ovid have earth create something against her will, "a horrid serpent" and then destroy it? I'm suspecting the serpent had a political, or some other meaning to Ovid. I'll defer this to the rest of you to tackle, it's too early for my brain to work with my two little grandchildren calling, "Nonnie, Nonnie" every two seconds. Back later once they have been picked up, and there is more time to concentrate. Just wanted to get this thought down before I forgot it, since it came to me in the middle of the night.
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Bellamarie and Barb, I wondered about the python too, and it's part of a bigger question I have. All the animals are killed in the flood, and afterwards new species are generated spontaneously from the earth. Of my three translations, two say "spontaneously generated", the third "spontaneously created". This implies natural processes, and Ovid gives an example of how life forms are created in the mud of the Nile. (They aren't really, of course, but it looks like it if you don't know much about life cycles.) Are the gods even involved here? They could be, if the earth is acting as a goddess, not as mud. Was the theory of spontaneous generation around then?
If the python was spontaneously generated, it would be against earth's will because anything with any consciousness would be revolted at something so disgusting.
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PatH., That is a good point. I was hoping others would tell me what their translations said in regards to this so I could maybe get a better idea of what Ovid is trying to make a point of. Like you said, if it was spontaneously generated, and it was revolting and disgusting, I could see why they would not want it to exist. Hmmm....going on a Google search now that the grankids are gone. Wasn't sure I was going to make it through Mass with those two little munchkins. God love em. What's that saying about grandkids, spoil them and send them home. :P :P
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After seeing a couple more translations which are different than mine, I can see the serpent was enormous in size, and was very frightful. Makes sense now why it would be killed off.
In this production of life, the earth even formed a great serpent never seen before. Men called this monstrous snake, Python, and it sprawled across an entire mountainside striking fear into the hearts of mortals everywhere.
http://www.bookrags.com/notes/met/part4.html#gsc.tab=0
Anthony S. Kline: Indeed, though she would not have desired to, she then gave birth to you, great Python, covering so great an area of the mountain slopes, a snake not known before, a terror to the new race of men.
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I think to get it we have to remove from our thoughts the idea that the snake represents evil - that did not come about till later -
At this time the snake represents power and fertility often it was a phallic symbol - representing immortality
The staff of Moses turned into a snake while others only refer to the crook as the head of a snake and it represented leadership.
The shedding or the snake's skin represent transformation and rebirth.
But it just dawned on me - there are serpent mounds - the mound would be like a mountain - most are found here in the states but there are some in Europe -
But most of all there are many ancient works of metal and wood carvings depicting the coiling snake
(http://www.jasperjohns.co.uk/cliftonpics/snake1.jpg)(http://draconisimperium.com/myPictures/oroborus_gold_blue.jpg)(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-R0xRH_QDgKk/UeJaULmqpRI/AAAAAAAAAbI/bescwXnXhCw/s1600/cadceus.jpg)(http://www.explore-italian-culture.com/images/ancient-roman-snake-bracelet.jpg)
The last being a picture of a roman snake bracelet.
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The Python. Blame it on the sun. My translation reads: 'under the kindly radiance of the sun in heaven she (Earth) brought forth countless forms of life' including 'this snake that struck terror into the new-born race of men.'
An evil if ever there was one, and Apollo, with his thousand arrows, makes short work of him. No great moral victory for him, but a chance to show off his skills. In commemoration athletic games are instituted. For the boys. For the girls...it was enough to get into the sun to get impregnated. I can't get over what Ovid finds in all the old myths. He cuts all the gods down to size in one way or another. Why he has even Jupiter consulting the scroll of fate before taking action. Is he making fun of the whole pantheon of gods? Was he being disrespectful?
But I see fresh posts. More to think about. I'm still wondering what to say to this:
'A sacred phallus was among the objects considered vital to the security of the Roman state which were in the keeping of the Vestal Virgins.'
I thought it was the Roman legions that lookd after national security.
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Barb,
I think to get it we have to remove from our thoughts the idea that the snake represents evil
I did not see in Ovid's poem the snake representing evil, more so I see he says it caused fear in people because of it's enormous size. Anything that is stretching down the side of a mountain would surely scare me. I am scared to death of any snake small or large. I grew up in a rural area where my sister, brother and I were playing and came across a huge snake wrapped near a tree where we always played. We ran home as fast as we could and never played there again. I seriously to this day can not even look at a picture of a snake.
I am more than ready to be done with this section of the poem and move on to the next.......
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Oviddanda.jpg)
Apollo and Daphne
by Artist
Gian Lorenzo Bernini (1622–25)
Galleria Borghese, Rome
(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free. Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
For Your Consideration:
“Week” Three: Tales of Gods and Humans, February 9--?
First tale: Apollo and Daphne
Bk I:438-472 Phoebus kills the Python and sees Daphne
Bk I: 473-503 Phoebus pursues Daphne
Bk I:504-524 Phoebus begs Daphne to yield to him
Bk I:525-552 Daphne becomes the laurel bough
Bk I:553-567 Phoebus honours Daphne
1. Why do you think Ovid starts the main theme of his poem with the Daphne and Apollo story? What is the theme of this story?
2. What is ironic about Apollo's pursuit of Daphne?
3. Why the contrast between the two archers?
4. Who won this contest? Who is the victor and who the vanquished?
5. An aetiological myth is one which explains how something came to be. Is Apollo and Daphne an aetiological myth? Why or why not?
6. What image in this short tale made the most impression on you?
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
From what I read Jonathan the arrows from Apollo killing the python was a revenge attack - not so much because the snake represented evil but because the snake was the god who kept Apollo's mother from birthing him during the daytime hours and is buried under the temple to Apollo.
Looking at Virgil, earlier than Ovid, included snakes in the Aeneid - Virgil wrote of snakes and fire in the Aeneid that he explains for the Trojans, the Greeks are considered both snakes and fire symbols of deceit and destruction.
And Horace includes the African Snake supplying the venom used by Cleopatra VII of Egypt, who died by self-inflicted snake-bite in 30 BC, rather than be brought to Rome to be led in Octavian's planned triumph.
"In vengeance we fled in such a way that we tasted nothing, as though Canidia, worse than African snakes, had breathed on those things". African snakes were understood to be the fiercest of serpents, and even their breath was believed to be foul and poisonous.
OK Uncle she (me) cried - finally resorted to Cooper - 5 pages on the serpent - more than any other symbol - starts off by saying, The serpent is a highly complex and universal symbol. Followed by descriptions of the serpent... Coiled, without legs or wings, with the eagle, with the stag, solar rays, primordial nature, self creating divinities, aggressive power, the underworld, the great Mother, for the Christian the snake can change places with the Dragon... on and on including the differences in practically every known religion and nation.
Specific for the Roman... Serpents were associated with the savior divinities and fertility and healing deities such as Salus. The serpent is an attribute of Minerva as wisdom.
Specific to the Greeks... Wisdom; renewal of life; resurrection; healing an as such an attribute of Aesculapius, Hippocrates, Hermes and Hygieia; it is also an aspect of Aesculapius as savior-healer. It is the life principle an agathos daimon; sometimes it is theriomorph of Zeus/Ammon and other deities; sacred to Athens as wisdom and particularly to Apollo at Delphi as light slaying the python of darkness and of the deluge. Apollo not only fees the sun from the powers of darkness but liberates the soul in inspiration and the light of knowledge.
The serpent is associated with Savior deities of the Mysteries and also represents the dead and dead heroes; The vital principle, or soul, left the body in the form of a snake, and souls of the dead can reincarnate as serpents. The snake is a symbol of Zeus Chthonios; it is also phallic and is sometimes depicted wrapped around an egg as a symbol of vitality; it represents the passions vitalizing both the male and female principles. Women with hair of serpents, such as the Erinyes, Medusa and Graia, signify the powers of magic and enchantment, the wisdom and guile of the serpents. Two huge serpents, sent by the offended Apollo, crushed Laocoon and his two sons. Three serpents on the breastplate of Agamemnon are equated with the celestial serpent in the rainbow. Bacchantes carry serpents.
Cooper also says the mountain symbolizes the world center, the omphalon, through which the polar axis runs and round which glide the dragons (serpents) of the cosmic powers. The highest point on earth is regarded as central, the summit of Paradise, the meeting place of clouds, heaven and earth, the support and abode of the gods. It is the embodiment of cosmic force and life - lots more but that is the first bit written about mountains.
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First we have to go watch one of our versions of the Pythian Games, the Superbowl. (But first, the Puppybowl).
The Romans were tremendous sports fanatics, as are we Americans (I'll bet even Ovid took time off from writing to visit the local version of the Coliseum). Sports are another thing (along with religion) that seem to be universal.
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I just ran across this as I was listening to Pandora. Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf wrote Six Symphonies after Ovid's Metamorphoses.
They are to reflect the stories related in Ovid's celebrated poems. I never knew this existed before. Quite delightful.
http://www.allmusic.com/album/karl-ditters-von-dittersdorf-6-symphonies-after-ovids-metamorphoses-mw0001843614
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/dittersdorf-6-symphonies-after-ovids-metamorphoses
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Collierose, delightful indeed, even though I could only get a few snippets. I had no idea either. I bet there are more musical works based on Metamorphoses. Does anybody know of some?
We meet two of the six pieces of music in Book I: The Four Ages of the World, and Phaeton's Fall. (OK, Phaeton doesn't fall in Book I, but we meet him.)
German is a kind of sturdy language. "Verwandlung" seems clunkier than "metamorphosis".
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You reshaped my evening, collierose. I thought of Handel's Acis and Galatea (the story is in Book XIII) and that led me to pull it up on youtube, which means keeping in range of my computer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e1QjZ0heY4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e1QjZ0heY4)
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I am more than ready to be done with this section of the poem and move on to the next.......
Bellamarie, I agree; it's time. We've finished the setting up, and are about to move on to a different phase. I'll figure a schedule shortly.
As always, PLEASE, anyone who has anything to say about past stuff, it's still relevant and welcome.
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Thank you Collierose, those pieces of music are truly relaxing and beautiful.
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What a find, CollieRose. while I am not a fan of that style of music, I am happy to see Metamorphoses represented in music.
PatH, maybe Don (Radioman) will be interested in doing a mythology theme on his show when he has recouperated.
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the short excerpts had me intrigued so I found a CD done by the Budapest Symphony for forty eight cents on Amazon.
Looking forward to the next section...
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Wait, wait, let's not go just yet! One more day?
I am so much enjoying what you've all said so far. I would like to hear a little bit more about some of the areas you're delving into. This is dazzling, as befits the subject, I think Ovid would be proud of you all.
I am hung up on some things way back there. I want to use that info about Rational Numbers. I am a math illiterate. Can I say that in a rational number after the decimal point if extended infinitely that a pattern will develop? Did I understand that correctly?
And is the reverse true? That in an irrational number no pattern will develop? That would make a wonderful allegory. :)
I would like to know if that's a true statement before I make a fool of self with it.
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whoops stumbled upon this bit -
Themis was the Titan goddess of divine law and order--the traditional rules of conduct first established by the gods. She was also a prophetic goddess who presided over the most ancient oracles, including Delphoi. In this role, she was the divine voice (themistes) who first instructed mankind in the primal laws of justice and morality, such as the precepts of piety, the rules of hospitality, good governance, conduct of assembly, and pious offerings to the gods. In Greek, the word themis referred to divine law, those rules of conduct long established by custom. Unlike the word nomos, the term was not usually used to describe laws of human decree.
The Pythia, commonly known as the Oracle of Delphi, was the name of any priestess throughout the history of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi.
Moral character was of utmost importance when selecting each new priestess, and even if the newly-chosen Pythia was married and had a family, she had to relinquish all familial duties in order to fill her role in the temple. Pythias were likely women from higher-class families, were educated, and well-read.
The last recorded response of the oracle was given to Emperor Theodosius I, after he had ordered pagan temples to cease operation. (Theodosius was the Emperor just before Constantine who became ordered everyone in the Empire to become a Christian)
Delphi is situated 2,000 feet above sea level, set in a semicircular spur of Mount Parnassus which rises to 8069 feet, this natural barrier is known as the Phaedriades (shining ones), and overlooks the Pleistos Valley. Delphi was known as the center of the world, the Omphalos, a carved symbol of prophetic arts and also represented the "navel of the world".
The name "Pythia" is derived from Pytho, which in myth was the original name of Delphi. Homer tells of a rocky place called Pytho in his Iliad.
The Pythia, established in the 8th century BC, was widely credited for her prophecies inspired by being filled by the spirit of God (or enthusiasmos) by the God Apollo. In etymology the Greeks derived this place name from the verb, pythein (πύθειν, "to rot"), which refers to the sickly sweet smell of the decomposition of the body of the monstrous Python after he was slain by Apollo.
Pythia was the House of Snakes. The usual theory has been that the Pythia delivered oracles in a frenzied state induced by vapors rising from a chasm in the rock, and that she spoke gibberish which priests interpreted as the enigmatic prophecies preserved in Greek literature.
It is often difficult to piece out the historical elements in myth. Some scholars believe that the Pythia did go into crazed trances. However, scholars such as Joseph Fontenrose question the historical accuracy of the manic and possessed Pythia. As Powell points out, there is no evidence of a chasm, and laurel leaves are not hallucinogenic
Mythical figure called Herophile, who was more commonly known as "Sibyl" sang the oracle in Gaia's shrine, and from that time on all prophetesses where known by that name. The "Sibylline Rock" can still be seen, and it was here the Sibyl sat and gave out her prophecies speaking in riddles. According to Pausanias, the Sibyl was the daughter of a mortal and a nymph "born between man and goddess, daughter of sea monsters and immortal nymph". According to one legend, Gaia gave the oracle to her daughter, the goddess of justice Themis, who in turn passed it on to her sister the moon goddess Phoebe.
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That is wonderful, CollieRose! Thank you so much. Yes in answer to Pat's question, I believe there are a lot of musical compositions based on Ovid's Metamorphoses, might be exciting to find them. Art, now music: how Ovid's creativity has inspired so many creative people!
I saw but cannot put my hands on a spectacular piece of modern art made up of the words of Ovid's definition of change, it blew me away, as well as all the incredible art we've seen so far. All you have to do is type in Ovid's Metamorphoses Images in Google and be blown away.
Oh and Pat H, Handel!! Oh man, richness indeed.
For sheer verbal richness tho, you can't beat this section. I was not so taken by the snake, meant nothing to me, but you've all done it proud. But the images!!
Let's go back to Triton. Do you all know who Triton was? Ovid keeps him covered here, we can't see his bottom half.
But what we can see, thanks to Lombardo, is very rich:
Line 344:
as Neptune
Lay down his trident and soothes the waves. He hailed
Cerulean Triton rising over the crests,
His shoulders encrusted with purple shellfish,
And told him to blow his winding horn..
Did you all see the Pirates of the Caribbean? Did you see the ship of Davy Jones? The men on the ship were encrusted with shells, they were turning into shells and were grown over by lichens, etc. Just like that new set of sculptures which are under the sea? People in statues like those lifelike bronzes you often see in cities, sitting and going to work, but they have been placed under the ocean and they also are being transformed by shells and sea creatures so that they are changed.
This is the latest thing in art! And in film!
Ovid wrote this before 8 A.D. Pretty spectacular!
What about Phrrha? Would you, if you had been in her situation, have understood the idea of scattering your mother's bones to create new people? I loved her reluctance there. I loved the oracle from the goddess Themis who apparently has suddenly appeared:
about line 394:
The goddess, moved, gave this oracular response:
(Oracles were known to be vague, nobody could understand them and they could therefore be interpreted MANY ways) So Themis says,
"Leave this temple. Veil your heads, loosen your robes,
And throw behind your back your great mother's bones."
Here's another piece of art from many on this subject:
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/deucalionandPhrrha.jpg)
and another
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/deucalionandpyrrha.jpg)
and another:
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/deucalionGiovanniBenedettoCastiglione16091664.jpg)
And listen to Lombardo on the nature of these creations:
This is long, let me start a new post:
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And here is Lombardo's take on what Ovid said about these stones:
Let's go back and start with line 413:
On the other hand, (Pyrrha reasons)
What harm was there in trying? Down they go,
Veiling their heads, untying their robes, and throwing stones
Behind them just as the goddess had ordered.
And the stones began (who would believe it
Without the testimony of antiquity?)
To lose their hardness, slowly softening
And assuming shapes. When they had grown and taken on
A milder nature, a certain resemblance
To human form began to be discernible,
Now well defined, but like roughed out statues.
The parts that were damp with earthly moisture
Because bodily flesh, the rigid parts became bones,
And the veins remained without being renamed...
Golly moses. Did any of you ever see the Invasion of the Body Snatchers? Where the pods turned into people slowly morphing and becoming people? There were two movies about this very thing, shown in the last one in horrific detail. VERY similar.
2000 years ago.
Back when Phrrha was reluctant to do that to her mother's bones (but let's face it, she was not carrying the skeleton of her mother along so could not have done it). Lombardo translates Ovid as saying.
line 401: At the thought of offending her mother's shades,
By tossing her bones.
Did you all catch that one?
What does it mean? What does it mean about the Romans and how they thought of their gods? It's important and we might have missed it.
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Jonathan said, I can't get over what Ovid finds in all the old myths. He cuts all the gods down to size in one way or another. Why he has even Jupiter consulting the scroll of fate before taking action. Is he making fun of the whole pantheon of gods? Was he being disrespectful?
What WAS, in fact, the attitude of the Romans toward the gods they had co-opted from the Greeks and given Roman names? Why was it the Romans would tolerate any sort of god from any sort of place in the world (and did). Including the totally made up god of Serapis?
Jonathan's question is one which has been debated since the poem was written. Is it satire? Allegory? Comedy? Are the gods the only ones who are being treated this way? Is he too facile? (Ovid, not Jonathan) hahaha
In all the Pantheon of gods, is there any so far who has shown any compassion or kindness to mortals? How would you feel if you were a mortal living post deluge?
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Joan K said: Of course, no one really believes in the poor groundhog. But the myth could have been based on a peculiarity of German weather, where Spring was always preceded by weeks of cloudy weather...
And then....ROUNDHOG DAY: I love groundhog day -- an example of us modern, scientific people using an old myth to predict the weather. The myth dates back at least 300 years, and was brought to the US by German settlers. Punxsutawney PHIL first strutted his stuff in 1886.
That's it, right there, in a nutshell. The Romans and the old Greek gods.
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Oh there's so much more! Everything you have brought to the table is so rich, let's start with these new items and see what we can discover before we hit the others. Thank you for making SUCH a rich discussion of this poem!
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As the stones started turning into men and women, Lombardo says:
And the stones began (who would believe it
Without the testimony of antiquity?)
To lose their hardness....
Martin:
...these stones
(you needn't take this part of it on faith,
for it's supported by an old tradition)--
these stones at once began to lose their hardness...
Does Ovid believe the story or is this gentle sarcasm? I learned when we were reading Greek plays, that Aristotle says that myth is the best subject for drama, since it doesn't matter how improbable the stories are, we know they are true. But I have my doubts about Ovid.
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I have my doubts about Ovid, too.
Ginny, your definition of rational numbers is good, the number either can be expressed exactly, or a pattern develops. 1 is a rational number, so is 1\4 (.25, expressed exactly) and 1\3 (.33333333... with a pattern). Pi, on the other hand, no matter how many places you carry it to, never falls into a pattern or is expressed exactly.
(Don't forget, Pi day is coming up. Round up, and celebrate on 3/14/16).
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BARB: "The Pythia, commonly known as the Oracle of Delphi, was the name of any priestess throughout the history of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi."
I've been wondering, if the oracle expressed herself through a priestess, the priestess must have been left alive after the flood. maybe the oracle was a disembodied voice.
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I think the different stories about Deucalion and Pyrrha are because the sources are different. I think as I said earlier two different ones come from Apollodorus and Hyginus. Apollodorus was the one who said that Deucalion was the son of Prometheus, and he even included instructions for a boat like Noah's ark, with no animals, which then landed them on Mt. Parnassus. In Hyginus they landed on Mt. Aetna in Sicily.
Did the Greeks believe these myths? I don't type well and am having to type this from the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature, which is an invaluable source, so I'll just do the Greeks first. Here are some excerpts:
"Myths are traditional tales, and they have become so because they possess some significance or enduring quality. Many Greek myths seem to center on Mycenae, itself shrouded in myth, from about 1600 BC and were of enduring importance in poetry and art as long as it was of religious importance for cult and ritual. A striking thing about Greek myth is the importance the Greeks attached to it by the Greeks up to the end of the fifth century. But in that century the medium for serious thought came to be prose. As Greece moved into the Hellenistic age (Alexander in 323 B.C.) it became more of a decorative element and less intellectually and emotionally charged. "
The myths of Homer and Hesiod were all the ancient (very ancient) Greeks had and had been passed down to Homer and Hesiod by word of mouth for centuries. They were ALL the Greeks had in the way of gods.
Picking the Oxford back up: "The Greeks did not have a word for religion. They used the word piety. Piety lay in the performance of traditional rituals and in the observance of traditional modes of restrained behavior and thought expressed in the Delphic maxims. Performance of cult had little to do with men's ideas about god. State gods were important for the safety of the city and were not to be interfered with. However it was the bond of a common and all pervasive religion more than any other factor that held the Greeks together.
The old gods and their old myths gradually lost their vitality among the educated classes in the Hellenistic Age. (late 4th century BC-late 2nd century B.C.)
The simple cults of the peasantry survived. Among the educated the old religion was replaced, in so far as it was replaced at all, by philosophical systems, notably the Stoic and Epicurean. Ruler cult became widespread in the Greek world at this time. This was a political religion without true religious spirit, the worship of a king as benefactor and protector, more powerful than the discredited gods of Olympus."
Tomorrow: enter the Romans.
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Getting back to music, if baroque isn't your thing, you can come down almost to the present. Benjamin Britten wrote Six Metamorphoses after Ovid, for solo oboe. Here's the only complete performance I found online of the 13 minute work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLxWE_7XiWk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLxWE_7XiWk)
And here's Wikipedia's listing of what the six sections represent:
Each of the titular six metamorphoses is based on a character from Roman mythology and includes an inscription summarizing their story:[1]
Pan, who played upon the reed pipe which was Syrinx, his beloved.
Phaeton, who rode upon the chariot of the sun for one day and was hurled into the river Padus by a thunderbolt.
Niobe, who, lamenting the death of her fourteen children, was turned into a mountain.
Bacchus, at whose feasts is heard the noise of gaggling women's tattling tongues and shouting out of boys.
Narcissus, who fell in love with his own image and became a flower.
Arethusa, who, flying from the love of Alpheus the river god, was turned into a fountain.
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Thinking about the idea if the Myths were believed - I remember as a child the many times we were told the story of St. Christopher carrying the baby Jesus on his shoulders across the river - using a staff for balance since he was tired with all his carrying since Jesus was one of many - We had medals and amulets and prayer cards all showing the picture of this St. Christoper - as folks began to own cars on the dash was a small statue of St. Christopher.
Then came Vatican II and St. Christopher, along with other saints were no more - turned out they were myths and actual humans with these names that carried out these deeds never existed - Not to say there were folks who as a favor forded a river carrying a child on their shoulder or back or, their job in ancient times may have been to help folks cross a river or, they may have accompanied travelers offering them protection. Within all of us we were told lay a bit of God since we were the children of God. Therefore, it could be interpreted as we help each other we are really assisting God however, during the childhood of Jesus there was no river crossing while sitting on the shoulder of anyone.
Of all the saints who were proven not to have existed and therefore their feast day was no longer celebrated or their feast day marked on the calendar, most of us were devastated over the idea that St. Christopher was a myth who was going to disappear - With such outcry it was decided by some local Bishops to skirt Vatican II and although accepted that St. Christopher as we knew of him would no longer be the story told by the clergy to children, we would keep the St. Christopher medals and statues as a symbol of protection that brings a comfort and a feeling of being protected just as the prayers and devotions to any and all those saints who were deemed genuine.
And so, where we seldom hear the story that was part of a child's experience, we still keep St. Christopher in our life and some parents still tell the story as they learned it when they were children even though the story is no longer sanctioned by the official church.
How many generations I wonder before St. Christopher becomes one of those old myths - and so a thought of how the gods and goddesses were gradually replaced in the hearts and minds of Romans and Greeks - time and their story was no longer valued by those in power.
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Very interesting, PatH. I was thinking tone poem when I listened to it, but I am not sure. Program music for sure. See I am learning more things. I do love oboe. This is Britten's only solo Oboe piece. Oh, yes. The other thing I thought of was how Disney used classical music in Fantasia. I can almost invision this work paired with an appropriate cartoon.
What Barb, What? St. Christopher not real? Not being Catholic, I missed that debate. I see from a quick Google, that his true identity is controversial and that Christopher derived from a title meaning Christ Bearer rather that his real name.
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Thank you Joan K, I hope I can remember that long enough to use it, it looks good, anyway! hahaha
Several people here have commented on what appears to be Ovid's attitude toward the gods. I think that's a good avenue of interest. From the very first moment when he did not name the gods and did not invoke the Muses it appears something is UP. I think you're very astute to notice it, I continue to be amazed at our book discussions here.
When the old Greek gods came into Roman domination the Romans, being practical people, took what they wanted, renamed it (Zeus=Jupiter, etc.) and used it in their own way.
Quoting again from the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature (a good read):
"The Latin word religio is of uncertain derivation, and it is a word of wide application. It may denote people's recognition of an external power that exerts a "binding," (ligans) force upon them, the sense of awe or anxiety felt in a place , such as a grove or a spring, believed to be the abode of a numen (spirit) and therefore holy. King Evander in Virgil's Aeneid says of the primeval forest which clothed the Roman Capitol 'some god (we do not know what god)'....[sound familiar?....] has this grove for his dwelling.
People are intruders into this realm of the spirits and they must therefore propitiate them by suitable offerings and ritual. This sense of spiritual presences permeated daily life, especially the life of the home and the fields."
When Phrrha said she blanched at offending the spirit of her mother's shades, she is talking about the spirits of the dead who were thought to be unhappy and touchy at best and had to be propitiated by suitable obsequies when they died...and yearly celebrations of their lives were held with food at the grave site (compare Dia de les Muertos in Mexico and other Caribbean countries). The dead were thought to be vaguely unhappy, wandering as shades through the various levels of the Underworld...the Romans views of death are "obscure."
If you ever see a Roman tomb you will see it begins DM: or Dis Manibus: to the spirits of the dead, extremely touchy spirits who could make their own lives, but more particularly the lives of the deceased miserable if they failed to do the proper thing in burial.
There were healthy philosophic discussions on the nature of religion, Cicero wrote a book on it. He asked at one point where do you stop with assigning gods to things? Are nymphs gods? If so then are trees? Are satyrs? Where do you draw the line?
Cicero also wrote about a type of life after death and planets beyond our solar system. He died in 43 B.C.
1." The Romans had no sacred writings, except for formulae of prayer. They were free to think what they liked about the gods, what mattered were the religious acts they performed. It was the necessity for exact fulfillment of their religious duties which promoted discipline and obedience to the state. " They relied on ritual and traditions handed down. Every house had an altar and every family was scrupulous in their following of the rituals. Even a small disturbance would throw it off.
"The formula of invocation and ritual were handed down and later recorded by the colleges so in time the ancient words and actions were barely understood. More attention was paid to the ritual than to the personality and attributes of the deity: it not infrequently happened that the ritual survived with the deity itself was forgotten."
3. "The businesslike, contractual nature of the Roman religion is seen in the very frequent use of vows (vota) public and private. These were undertakings given in the name of the state to offer to the gods special sacrifices, games, a share of booty or temple, if some peril were averted, success achieved, or prosperity assured for a certain period. " These were put in writing on small things and many of them survive.
4. "With the development of Rome, the Romans attached to the gods their own developing sense of morality; a feeling that the gods were just served to sanction human law...The emphasis placed on particular virtues such as patriotism and duty led to these virtues, the more so as they were often seen embodied in a line of noble Romans...Thus the Roman religion is at the root of the sense of duty that marked so many Romans, duty to home, gods, and state. A national solidarity ensued, maintained by the annual state festivals of the various gods, so that religion became the sanctification of patriotism. "
The Eastern religions, also accepted into Roman culture like the goddess Isis, who did promote a type of resurrection, were more personal. And there were many of them, Magna Mater, Dionysus, Serapis, Osiris, and Mythras, all were tolerated. Julius Caesar was deified after his death as was Augustus.'
"The practice of regarding as a god, are at least god like , a person who had converted great benefits was common to both Greeks and Romans. The emperor Augustus, realizing the value of fostering such devotion, encouraged the spread of this idea in the West in a way that would not clash with Roman religious tradition....Augustus and subsequent emperors were deified after their death. "
5. "This cult of the emperors was the one general test of loyalty to the empire. Subjects might worship any divinity they pleased, but they also had to worship the emperor as a sign of loyalty. "
They also did auguries and auspices, and oracles, with very fine points between them. But not all Romans agreed with these, either.
In the battle of Drepanum between Rome and Carthage in 249 B.C., the sacred chickens were consulted by the augurs to tell whether or not, not as in Punxatawny Phil, the future would be told, but whether the undertaking had the support of the gods.
However the chickens would not eat, so their pattern of eating could not be discovered. Hours passed and the impatient Roman admiral grew tired of the delay. Throwing them overboard, he exclaimed, "then let them drink."
Of course the Romans were defeated and that is why that story has come down to us like a cautionary tale.
Are the myths we're about to read cautionary?
You'll be the judge.
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Frybabe,
The other thing I thought of was how Disney used classical music in Fantasia. I can almost invision this work paired with an appropriate cartoon.
Music in and of itself tells a story. I can not imagine any movie, play, etc., being as enjoyable, and at times believable, without a score of music to bring the viewer into the storytelling. I like to close my eyes, listen to pieces of music, and try to imagine what could be set to the music. Listening to Oboe's piece I can imagine transformations taking place. There is a calming and then a bit of chaos giving me the impression things are happening, changing, transforming........ then a calming once again.
I felt Ovid stating the stones losing their hardness was a sense of rebirth. From the Iron Age of hardness, now entering a new birth of possibly innocence and softness again. Much like the piece of music. But of course, we know men are going to harden the spirit once again. It's truly an unavoidable cycle.
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"The businesslike, contractual nature of the Roman religion is seen in the very frequent use of vows (vota) public and private. These were undertakings given in the name of the state to offer to the gods special sacrifices, games, a share of booty or temple, if some peril were averted, success achieved, or prosperity assured for a certain period."
Amazing - this could have been written describing the Roman Catholic Church - many a monistary, chapel and cathedral were built as penance by the nobility for wrong doings or, as a special sacrifice or, because of the successful birth of a child. And all the stories of gods and goddesses reminds me of the saints and their stories - granted different in nature but the same principle - showing an powerful existence. I guess it is no small matter that so much business like contractual and organizational change happened because of Constantine, a Roman Emperor, whose handprint is all over the decisions made, although not a part of the councils he called The Council of Nicaea as well as, The First Synod of Tyre.
Love this from Ginny's post - "People are intruders into this realm of the spirits and they must therefore propitiate them by suitable offerings and ritual. This sense of spiritual presences permeated daily life, especially the life of the home and the fields." - I'm now old enough that I have memories as a child of the Angelus being rung on nearby church bells at 6AM, Noon and 6PM and so many trudged up to church in the dark mornings for 6AM Mass - those who commuted to work made the sacrifice to attend daily Mass during Lent - we lived our lives with a "sense of spiritual presences".
Ovid is giving us a guide to the Roman gods similar to The Book of Saints today - I am so glad we are reading Ovid - a new understanding of Roman myth.
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Nice comparisons, Barb. Ginny has certainly given me a new feeling for what religion did and didn't mean to the Romans.
Frybabe, I'm not a Catholic either, but I remember well how wrong it seemed to me that Saint Christopher should be "demoted".
Bellamarie:
But of course, we know men are going to harden the spirit once again. It's truly an unavoidable cycle.
It starts immediately, as Ovid says how men got their hardness from the stones.
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Ginny has raised a whole bunch of questions, and we can talk about them some more, but let's also go on to the next section. Now we're done setting the stage, and getting to the sort of story that makes up a lot of the poem. The first story is Apollo and Daphne. I've put the sections as Kline divides it, and some questions, in the heading on this page.
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Moving on to Apollo and Daphne, you ask, What is the theme of this story?
It would seem to be love, but as you read through it, I can also see, jealousy, power, lust, refusal, and revenge.
It seems Ovid is telling us a love story, Apollo is lovestruck with Daphne, after Cupid has struck Apollo with the golden arrow, which kindles love. But he strikes Daphne with the leaden arrow which rejects love. So as much as Apollo pursues Daphne she wants nothing to do with him.
Why did Cupid shoot Apollo with the golden arrow of love? It seems Cupid did not like Apollo bragging about being such a great marksman on the python, so Cupid decides he will shoot Apollo to fall madly in love with Daphne only to torture him by causing Daphne to refuse him.
Mandelbaum's translation:
Now Daphne_daughter of the river-god,
Peneus__was first of Phoebus' loves.
This love was not the fruit of random chance:
what fostered it was Cupid's cruel wrath.
For now, while Phoebus still was taking pride
in his defeat of Python, he caught sight
of Cupid as he bent his bow to tie
the string at the two ends. He said: "Lewd boy,
what are you doing with that heavy bow?
My shoulders surely are more fit for it;
for I can strike wild beasts__I never miss.
I can fell enemies; just recently
I even hit__my shafts were infinite__
that swollen serpent, Python, sprawled across
whole acres with his pestilential paunch.
Be glad your torch can spark a bit of love:
don't try to vie with me for praise and wreaths!"
And Venus' son replied: "Your shafts may pierce
all things, o Phoebus, but you'll be transfixed
by mine; and even as all earthly things
can never equal any deity,
so shall your glory be no match for mine."
Looks like Apollo's bragging got him in a real fix with Cupid, he not only fell madly in love, but it almost became an obsession, and lustful. A love story turned into a tragedy.
It seems a tragedy for Daphne, here she is beautiful and has to be turned into a tree to avoid being accosted by Apollo.
I found this a tad bit interesting:
In Roman mythology, Cupid (Latin cupido, meaning "desire") is the god of desire, affection and erotic love. He is often portrayed as the son of the goddess Venus, with a father rarely mentioned.
In Roman mythology, Venus was the goddess of love, sex, beauty, and fertility. She was the Roman counterpart to the Greek Aphrodite.
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=is%20venus%20the%20god%20of%20love
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It's an odd, lopsided love story, isn't it. Apollo so smitten, and Daphne so reluctant. She's the innocent bystander here. Apollo perhaps deserved what happened at least a little, but Daphne had nothing to do with any of it, just an innocent bystander hit by Cupid's arrow.
There are a number of striking bits in this story. Which was your favorite?
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Yes, I did feel a bit sad for poor Daphne who did not choose to be in the middle of this egotistical behavior of Cupid and Apollo. With Valentine's Day in just four more days, it's ironic we are here at this part of the poem discussing love and Cupid. So why not share the song.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOho-r-oBog
I particularly like this pic of Daphne, Apollo and Cupid
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BU3wQIe302k/TVhBWl3sbgI/AAAAAAAAANk/LTXUl1hrhMc/s1600/VDMeulenDaphneApollo.jpg)
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Thought this was an interesting tidbit:
(http://image.slidesharecdn.com/cupid-151006115806-lva1-app6891/95/cupid-9-638.jpg?cb=1444132707)
Not the cute little cherub with good intentions as portrayed on Valentine's Day.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRK7-hKNvvFKDpknw2TQZD9vY7Kp62lpmCU0Z-E2__K0KNjCmvrfA)
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Not the Sam Cooke of "A change Gonna Come" And "Chain Gang Song" but still good!
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It is an interesting story isn't it? So many myths and fairytales seem to feature unrequited love which is certainly a theme. It appears that Apollo just won't take no for an answer ...that's a good point, Bellamarie -such a funny thing with Valentine's Day coming up to have the little Cupid running around actually not doing so many nice things, is he? I find it interesting that he has wings. I don't know why, there are Putti in the art all over the ancient houses of Pompeii-- little figures running around with wings. I think it's interesting.
Those poor nymphs. It must've been a hard life because they are constantly being pursued by men and it seems they don't want anything to do with them .....They want to devote themselves to Diana and just run around in the woods.
It's a terrible thing I don't know if you all have seen the recent news story it was either on CNN or the BBC but there's a man in Bangladesh whose hands have taken on the appearance of developing into leaves....it's it's just an awful thing I wouldn't put a picture of it here it's some kind of skin condition but they look exactly like the hands and the Bernini sculpture and it's not funny to him at all. They're going to help him with that ---they're going to operate on it . Life imitating art .
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It's suddenly occurred to me to think in sort of a careless way how many Metamorphoses there are in the story. First I thought there was just the one-- she is turning into a tree and she's got bark she's got leaves she's turning into a tree, but I'm wondering if there are others or if we would have to consider that the change of appearance was the only part of what we would be calling a metamorphosis?
Change of form is what he said he was going to do but we have other changes here we have Apollo turning into some kind of rabid suitor.... I wonder if that counts?
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She's the innocent bystander here. Apollo perhaps deserved what happened at least a little, but Daphne had nothing to do with any of it, just an innocent bystander hit by Cupid's arrow.
Makes you wonder which one has been victimized the most, doesn't it? Would we all say that Daphne's got the worst end of this?
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I saw the pic of the man with the hands turning into leaves on Facebook. It was very gross looking, I am happy to know they can help him.
I was a bit disturbed with Cupid causing Apollo to have this obsession with Daphne. Neither deserved for Cupid to take it upon himself to shoot either of them and cause this situation.
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Ovid does make one feel partly sorry for Apollo. He's distressed that Daphne will hurt herself fleeing (but not enough to make him stop chasing her). And when she turns into a tree:
Apollo still loved her, and pressing his hand
Against her trunk he felt her heart quivering
Under the new bark. He embraced her limbs
With his own arms, and kissed the wood,
But even the wood shrank from her kisses. Lombardo
Touching, but remember the way the gods behaved. There will be others.
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To me, the most touching lines in this section are the last. Apollo has just explained to the Daphne-tree how she will be ever green, adorn the brows of heroes, etc:
Apollo was done. The laurel bowed her new branches
And seemed to nod her leafy crown in assent. Lombardo
Is she sadly resigned? Pleased with her new, important role? We'll never know.
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I think Daphne/Laurel was acknowledging that Apollo spoke not of own his selfish, lustful desire, but of something bigger than himself, in perpetuity. Perhaps he became a bit more humble and less egotistical and self-centered? I think that may have been Cupid's point. At the beginning of the story, he was quite the braggart and thought himself better than others (or at least Cupid).
Oh, gee, did I turn this into something of an Aesop's Fable moral?
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Oviddanda.jpg)
Apollo and Daphne
by Artist
Gian Lorenzo Bernini (1622–25)
Galleria Borghese, Rome
(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free. Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
For Your Consideration:
“Week” Three: Tales of Gods and Humans, February 9--?
First tale: Apollo and Daphne
Bk I:438-472 Phoebus kills the Python and sees Daphne
Bk I: 473-503 Phoebus pursues Daphne
Bk I:504-524 Phoebus begs Daphne to yield to him
Bk I:525-552 Daphne becomes the laurel bough
Bk I:553-567 Phoebus honours Daphne
1. Why do you think Ovid starts the main theme of his poem with the Daphne and Apollo story? What is the theme of this story?
2. What is ironic about Apollo's pursuit of Daphne?
3. Why the contrast between the two archers?
4. Who won this contest? Who is the victor and who the vanquished?
5. An aetiological myth is one which explains how something came to be. Is Apollo and Daphne an aetiological myth? Why or why not?
6. What image in this short tale made the most impression on you?
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
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I'm really impressed with your interpretations. You're all seeing things in it I did not see. I think with these ancient gods or should we say "Gods Behaving Badly," that I tend to just think with a whitewash brush and think oh there they go again, and you've all shown something more here.
I don't know why I keep blaming Apollo. I failed to see the pathos in his own situation. It's not his fault, he CAN'T stop, then? Or is this a case of the modern day "the devil made me do it" excuse? Such an interesting thing to read as Valentines Day nears. And what kind of "god" is Apollo anyway? You have to wonder if he's a such a minor god so that he can be influenced or even driven by others? This is a strange story.
What IS the "cultural truth value" in this one, I wonder? I think maybe Frybabe hit on it! (I'm trying to put one in each myth to see if it fits). I'm going to have to read that again. I had NO sympathy for Apollo, at all.
Do you think Ovid has drummed up any sympathy for Daphne, tho?
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I am very confused now - how are we speaking as if these gods are outside ourselves - I thought they were gods - and gods are an expression of our own life experience that someone like Shakespeare put the story of the gods better into human perspective - that a cupid only represents a passion that takes over within ourselves and the only thing about this story is that it is written during a time when no one could imagine a women chasing a man - at this time in history before we know about the brain and emotions and psychology the behavior and emotions of men and women were brought to the surface as gods uncontrollable by humans. The aspects of gods actually became the names we still use today for some of our feelings.
I am really bewildered - not funny - my head actually hurts trying to hang on here but I am really having difficulty wrapping my head around this dichotomy - even when I was a young women, long before women's rights, it was considered the ideal to have a man chase you and be so out of control in love with you that others would tease the guy - I am trying to match my life experience with what is being said here about cupid being a culprit as if cupid is not part of ourselves or not part of the pantheon of gods that are simply aspects of humans and the human condition -
Where the lives of the saints may show us how another used the very nature we all posses in a positive way the gods and their stories were extractions of all aspects of our nature that explained to man the being of man as well as, the being of the universe.
If the gods and goddesses are not part of ourselves than what is really confusing is why the reminder of justice that we see depicted outside most courthouses with the statue of Themis - isn't that to remind us to look within and set our personal opinion, rage, support aside and when we enter this building we are entering the realm were we are as members of a jury all equally looking for justice - that the statue of Themis reminds us to tap into our inner capacity to seek justice and so too all these gods are an expression of life... rather than thinking Themis must enter as an outside force and affect us in order for us to be just...
The more I ponder what I have been reading the more confused I get - maybe I should go for a walk and just wait till we are past all this because try as I am I feel like y'all truly must know something I do not and like Alice I've just dropped into the hole to wonderland. I'm not being sarcastic here I am really confused.
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Frybabe,
Perhaps he became a bit more humble and less egotistical and self-centered? I think that may have been Cupid's point. At the beginning of the story, he was quite the braggart and thought himself better than others (or at least Cupid).
Okay, if I look at this from other scholars points of view which I have spent a day reading different analysis' of this part of the poem, there just isn't anything I can deduce to understanding why Cupid feels the need to destroy Daphne's life because he wants to exact revenge on Apollo, for bragging about being a good marksman. I did not see Apollo becoming less egotistical or less self centered, if anything he takes leaves from the laurel tree and says he will adorn himself with them to have Daphne with him forever. Ughhhh....... STALKER!!!!! But in defense of Apollo, he is not in control of his own feelings since Cupid has shot him with the dastardly arrow.
Ovid not only has put the female in a position of all the males deciding her eternity, e.g. Cupid, Apollo, and even her father, but he determined her fate due to two gods egos. Call me a modern day feminist, but it does not sit well with me that Daphne's life should be ruined because two gods wanted to flex their muscles. Not seeing any moral or point to this except for don't tick off Cupid. >:(
I suppose since the poem is called Metamorphoses, this part of the poem shows transformation, Daphne into a laurel tree. Like many love stories turned tragic, this is one for the books.
Apollo didn't seem to fare well in the department of love....
http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/myth-stories/loves-of-apollo.htm
Barb, maybe that laurel tree is Alice's journey, after all she did fall asleep and have her dream beside a tree. A bit of humor to lighten the mood. I have a whole new outlook on Cupid after reading this poem. That little cherub is a troublemaker going around determining people's love lives.
(http://www.valentine-clipart.com/valentine_clipart_images/baby_cupid_shooting_cupids_arrow_of_love_0521-1002-0612-5155_SMU.jpg)
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Ancient Greek manuscripts reveal life lessons from the Roman empire
http://tinyurl.com/jpfqvej
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Thanks for the Latin lesson, Barb. How I wish I could be reading Ovid's poem in the original form. I envy all you Latin scholars.
Don't give up, Barb. Wait for your own metamorphosis. A light went on for me when I saw the word 'Verwandlung' in one of Pat's comments. For me Verwandlung connotes tremendous transmutional potential. The word is a linguistic birthright for me. Aha, so that's what metamorphosis is all about.
It makes me want to ask Bellamarie: Have you never wanted to be a tree? It's beautiful in so many ways. And who was the poet who reminded us that only God can make a tree? Do you think that Cupid himself was in love with Daphne?
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FRY:" Perhaps he became a bit more humble and less egotistical and self-centered? "
Hubris again! It seems to be the primary sin in these stories. I've been thinking about it: we still have the belief that if we're too cocky we'll be cut down to size. I know whenever I say something cocky (like "I'm getting really good at this!" I have to modify it ("now I'll probably mess up!") for luck.
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GINNY: do these stories originally come from the Greeks, or are they of Roman origin? Or is it mixed?
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Joan K, they're both. This one is thought to be pretty much Ovid. There were prior stories of Apollo loving Daphne but they weren't to this extent fleshed out. The early Greek myths were sort of outlines, most of them, and Ovid here has taken it on for his own.
Apparently this particular myth came late in Greek mythology, and they were originally set in the Peloponnese , not in Thessaly.
Anderson says "Ovid uses Apollo to develop a thematic representation of male erotic desire, an obviously flawed kind of love. Exploiting the familiar motifs of elegy, he lightly mocks the god's almost human helplessness and also lightly hints at the selfish violence that lurks underneath those trite elegiac formulae of wooing. Daphne, too, proves a loser, she cannot survive as a virgin and prefers to sacrifice her human form rather than yield to an undesired god. Yet she is being punished for insisting on virginity. "
Barbara, I don't see anything wrong with anything you've said. As Dr. Travis says, myth is about seeing the cultural truth values that exist today, they sort of symbolize them. It's been 2000 years since Ovid wrote this and it might be a sort of window on his world or it might not. Nobody knows what it is. The Anderson view is one opinion, and while nobody can counter him in Latin analysis, perhaps some of his thoughts are not our own in 2016. I particularly dislike his use of the term "loser" for Daphne.
What do the rest of you think of that? Who is the victim here and what or nothing has Ovid done to make us see it?
You are all entitled to anything you think about the poem and you've shown deep insights. I would not, however, ascribe Christian beliefs to this particular poem as Ovid was a pagan in the true sense of the word.
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OK - this bit shows that even in this humans question the gods and try to get some sense that relates to their viewpoint.
Not talking about this bit only using it as the example of how humans question the gods and how they handle satisfying an understanding that fits their viewpoint.
For a long time they stand there, dumbfounded. Pyrrha is first to break the silence: she refuses to obey the goddess’s command. Her lips trembling she asks for pardon, fearing to offend her mother’s spirit by scattering her bones. Meanwhile they reconsider the dark words the oracle gave, and their uncertain meaning, turning them over and over in their minds. Then Prometheus’s son comforted Epimetheus’s daughter with quiet words: ‘Either this idea is wrong, or, since oracles are godly and never urge evil, our great mother must be the earth: I think the bones she spoke about are stones in the body of the earth. It is these we are told to throw behind us.’
OK before we have Cupid darting Apollo we have as Kline transcribes "And though fire and water fight each other, heat and moisture create everything, and this discordant union is suitable for growth."
And so I am seeing that the fire of desire darted into Apollo
"You should be intent on stirring the concealed fires of love with your burning brand, not laying claim to my glories!’ Venus’s son replied ‘You may hit every other thing Phoebus, (Apollo) but my bow will strike you: to the degree that all living creatures are less than gods, by that degree is your glory less than mine.’"
Cupid is saying here that he has the power to infuse the fires of love with his arrows or darts as some translate it. He is suggesting this fire of love is within all living creatures and therefore, are the gods, less than.
These gods are written as so many today write about a single God that has the qualities of a man even though no one has ever seen God - the single God today is described as anything from kind, loving to punitive, threatening or unreliable. All aspects that man can understand and have attributed to God. Therefore, it is not too outlandish to see that the Roman and Greek Gods were fashioned by the behavior of man that was understood at the time.
Marriage was not based on love till the twelfth century - Courtly love that started in the 9th and 10th century was about a young man obsessed with an older, married women - the more pleasing his gifts of song, writing poetry to her and starving himself to show his passion were expressed he was considered more besotted espressing courtly love - during this time the marriage was performed by the father uniting his daughter for the sole purpose of procrastination. And so she had to be enticed or commanded. Remember Shakespeare makes this into a comedy of behavior in Taming of the Shrew later to become a musical Kiss Me Kate.
Also, we had during this time frame, words from Aristotle saying, that being unmarried was the higher order - as to the concept of marriage vows shared with a priest present - in the early church we have virginity being extolled some asked for the presence of a priest only to bless what was considered sinful since the Church too thought if Jesus was unmarried it was preferable and the hope was that a priest's blessings would sanctify this sinful union. Marriage as we know it with vows exchanged in front of a priest rather than the Bride's father, only became traditional in the middle ages and only became equal to Baptism in the late 12th century.
Phoebus begs Daphne to yield saying he will not be rough giving examples of her flight bringing herself harm. Which is how many a young girl at a young age still feels till she wants the attention of a male - at this time in history "And though fire and water fight each other, heat and moisture create everything, and this discordant union is suitable for growth." Daphne was probably all of maybe 14 years old if that... and expected to think of herself as a pure virgin - we know that boys mature sexually early with their peak during their late teens so that with no understanding of how sexuality is within us it would be easy to imagine a god being in charge and this time it is the arrow of a cupid.
If we are being poetic about ourselves - out of the blue we can feel a sexual attraction just as if we too were hit by cupid's arrow. We actually hope that a boy will become obsessed with his desire so that the union instead of being forced is a love match - we hope he will be "urged on by Amor, he ran on at full speed."
As to, "he driven by desire, she by fear." Has been the example of the coupling after marriage even in the early part of the twentieth century - a 'good' wife was innocent and fearful while the boy of maybe the same age or a year or so older was a 'man' that some had fathers who initiated them by bringing them to say it delicately as many did 'the local house of ill repute'
Today our fear seems to be centered around if the marriage will last and is he all that he appears - we have little to fear that we are being forced or complying with family demands to marry a certain man. But we can still use the balance between desire and fear as a story within - when we are smitten by the arrow are we acting responsibly or not - this is not the balance we experience later in a marriage but when we are first smitten it is what we hope young people consider so that the safety of water can douse out the fire.
In this story the safety of water can be thought of in several ways - there would be no escaping for a young women courted for marriage - the father would chose someone - and so her emotional flight, "Peneus’s waters near cried out ‘Help me father! If your streams have divine powers change me, destroy this beauty that pleases too well!’ Her prayer was scarcely done when a heavy numbness seized her limbs, thin bark closed over her breast, her hair turned into leaves, her arms into branches, her feet so swift a moment ago stuck fast in slow-growing roots, her face was lost in the canopy." suggests to me two things.
It could suggest she no longer is her own agency - she is now the property of another and as if an appendage to the man, as if a tree growing from the mud - therefore, the second, as a symbol of a tree planted firm in these new waters of matrimony, like a tree she will grow and shelter their impregnated seeds. Which would satisfy the proclamation in the early part of the poem that said, "And though fire and water fight each other, heat and moisture create everything, and this discordant union is suitable for growth."
I see all of us made of water and with the ability to open our arms like a tree as well as, out of the blue being smitten by desire for not only another human but, for all sorts of creativity that is nurtured as if we were Daphne no longer fleeing but stuck fast protecting the fire and water, the union of a new triumph.
Yes, I never realized till I wrote all this that I can see the glory in this myth - the dart of a cupid urges an interest into a passion that brings something glorious to our lives.
Ha ha just read the posts y'all posted while I was writing this and digging deep to figure out what it meant to me. I guess I did have my metamorphose.
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Jonathan,
It makes me want to ask Bellamarie: Have you never wanted to be a tree? It's beautiful in so many ways. And who was the poet who reminded us that only God can make a tree? Do you think that Cupid himself was in love with Daphne?
No, actually I don't ever recall wanting to be a tree although, I think trees are beautiful! I just don't think I would want to be one, and Daphne surely did not deserve to be turned into one because two male gods couldn't keep their egos in check.
I do not think Cupid was in love with Daphne. Cupid was really insulted by Apollo, insinuating his bow and arrow was too big for him, and so Cupid wanted to show him he had the power to mess up his life, and so he did. Daphne was an innocent victim.
Ginny, You are all entitled to anything you think about the poem and you've shown deep insights. I would not, however, ascribe Christian beliefs to this particular poem as Ovid was a pagan in the true sense of the word.
Not intending to debate whether or not Ovid ascribed Christian beliefs to this particular poem, I must say, it may be so that Ovid was a pagan in the true sense, but it does not negate the possibility of Ovid mocking religion by using stories from the Bible, and then transforming them in his Metamorphoses. I see politics and religion, along with lust and lunacy in Ovid's poem.
You can not be surprised if anyone would mention the parallels, considering many scholars and others over the centuries have also discussed the possibilities. Just because someone is a pagan, does not make it a definitive fact he had no intentions of religion in this poem. I have read numerous articles throughout the beginning of this discussion that shows controversy, and nothing definite, to the contrary it leaves the possibility open. Not sure why it would matter one way or the other???
Patrice wrote: "I couldn't help wondering if Ovid had access to the Bible. It seems quite possible. ."
To the Old Testament, quite possibly, but not the New. But he is telling myths which go back long before the writing even of the OT.
Of course, it's possible that he could have had access to material which both the creators of Greek/Roman myth and the Hebrew Bible writers had access to.
Another post: Ovid seems to have collected all the early stories he could find. He lived long after the writing of Genesis, and the Old Testament, because of the Jewish diaspora, was scattered all through the Roman Empire of Ovid's day. Surely he would have wanted to take a look at it.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1375010-metamorphoses-book-1
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That there are similar stories no one can deny. I thought the point had been made of worldwide stories.
Ovid mocking religion by using stories from the Bible, Why would he bother when there was so much richness in his own beliefs? We don't all agree, by the way, that he did draw from the "Bible." We don't need to. The ancients are entitled to their own stories, history, culture, and viewpoint without being forced into "borrowing from" any different religion, which, particularly in Ovid's case, he could not possibly have physically in his lifetime encountered (I am speaking of Christianity).
Just because someone is a pagan, does not make it a definitive fact he had no intentions of religion in this poem. I don't understand this statement. Who said he didn't have "intentions of religion in this poem?" But one thing is for sure: it certainly makes it a definitive fact that he did not intend "Christianity" in his work. That's the definition of pagan. In the Vatican.
I am saying that in our efforts to see a cultural truth, we naturally, each of us, use the prism we personally see through. That's fine. There's no point in preaching to the choir. No matter who has said it, what blog, what college student, what author, none of that makes any difference to the fact that the man wrote this book before 8 A.D. That alone disqualifies it as any kind of Christian anything.
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Barb,
Ha ha just read the posts y'all posted while I was writing this and digging deep to figure out what it meant to me. I guess I did have my metamorphose.
I'm glad you had your metamorphose, I can't say mine has happened as yet, but I do know I do NOT want to be a tree! ;D
Ginny, I think we need to agree to disagree about referencing this poem to the Bible. It really seems moot to debate it. No other scholars have determined the definitive answer so I don't see we will either. It seems many of the poets drew from many sources even though you mention, Why would he bother when there was so much richness in his own beliefs? I won't deny he had his richness, and also he drew from other's works. I am aware a pagan is a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions, which of course Augustus was not going to tolerate, and his exile after this poem in part was because of his beliefs.
Yes, in fact he was before Christ. I guess I just don't see why this keeps coming up, why does it really matter?
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Do you mean "moot?"
Because he cannot be a Christian, write about Christians or inject any Christian theology into a document he wrote before Christianity.
Yes, I agree, we definitely disagree and there's no point in it because we're both on the same side.
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Yes, thank your for your correction, I did mean "moot." I was still proofreading and modifying. I am well aware Christ had to exist before Christianity could. I've never mentioned Christianity, I have referenced to his possibility of using stories from the Bible. I don't understand why it is an issue, when so many others before us have seen the similarities and have been able to respectfully, discuss them in their groups. Mea Culpa.
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Thought this was an interesting small summary with art.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3RSRrUL1Os
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THAT is incredible, isn't it? They do a great job on the Bernini, terrific find! Thank you for bringing that here.
I am fascinated by everybody's thoughts on the ending here, the possible moral. The moral as in an Aesop's fable versus the theme.
PatH mentions To me, the most touching lines in this section are the last. Apollo has just explained to the Daphne-tree how she will be ever green, adorn the brows of heroes, etc:
Apollo was done. The laurel bowed her new branches
And seemed to nod her leafy crown in assent. Lombardo
Is this what your translation says too? She is nodding her leafy head in assent? Assent to what?
She has agreed to her life ruined because of somebody else's...what?
Bellamarie said:
Okay, if I look at this from other scholars points of view which I have spent a day reading different analysis' of this part of the poem, there just isn't anything I can deduce to understanding why Cupid feels the need to destroy Daphne's life because he wants to exact revenge on Apollo, for bragging about being a good marksman. I did not see Apollo becoming less egotistical or less self centered, if anything he takes leaves from the laurel tree and says he will adorn himself with them to have Daphne with him forever. Ughhhh....... STALKER!!!!! But in defense of Apollo, he is not in control of his own feelings since Cupid has shot him with the dastardly arrow.
Ovid not only has put the female in a position of all the males deciding her eternity, e.g. Cupid, Apollo, and even her father, but he determined her fate due to two gods egos. Call me a modern day feminist, but it does not sit well with me that Daphne's life should be ruined because two gods wanted to flex their muscles. Not seeing any moral or point to this except for don't tick off Cupid.
That is a very good point! We have here mortal man at the mercy of two angry gods.
What's that expression, sinners in the hand of an angry God?
But what has Daphne done? How has she deserved this? Until we started discussing this with all your really wonderful points, I glossed over this mentally as just business as usual with gods and nymphs. Now perhaps before we read the coming litany of same, can we say what we think here the point Ovid is making is?
We'll all have different opinions of course but do we actually HAVE an opinion at this point?
If this happened today, in 2016, she would not be a tree. It would not unfortunately be on the front pages of the news, it happens too often. Why is she a tree here in the poem? What does Ovid seem to be saying?
If Daphne has done nothing but is punished (but IS it a punishment, really? She's a tree and oh look she can adorn the brows of heroes in the laurel wrath for victors of the Romans from time immemorial.) And oh look in the words of the poet she has acquiesced to this....what? Role?
Is Ovid saying she has been transformed into a victor? The mother/ participant from now on of all victorious ceremonies?
Seriously? We will think of her every time somebody rides by with a laurel wreath on his head? THAT is her reward?
Is this tongue in cheek?
Anderson in his commentary picks up on the irony here by calling HER a "loser." And then he says Apollo is a loser too.
I am becoming more and more irritated by the term "loser" in 2016. What IS our conception in 2016 of a "loser?" Cam Newton gave one the other day when he said (paraphrasing) I am not a good loser. To be a good loser is to be a loser. or words to that effect.
If somebody is winning or losing here who would it be to YOU?
And what IS Ovid seeming to say to YOU about the relationship in this new world of his creation of the gods and men?
If we each had to take a stand like Daphne did and plump down for loser, whose loss here is the greatest and why should we be talking about being a LOSER in the interactions between god and man?
I think your own points have called attention to this issue and we're about to have a string of issues just the same in case we missed the point, but what IS the point? So can we say what WE think is going on here really? There is no answer sheet here but you own true thoughts.
How cool that this ancient poem should be a springboard for such great opportunities for discussion, thanks to the efforts of everybody here.
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Bellamarie, I'm glad you posted that link. It gives us a chance to see the statue from a lot of angles, and see a lot more detail, and they point out a lot of things. Have you noticed how different the facial expressions look from different angles?
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Apollo was done. The laurel bowed her new branches
And seemed to nod her leafy crown in assent. Lombardo
This actually saddens me. I find nothing romantic or positive in this final verse, if anything for me it shows Daphne's final submission to Apollo. I don't see the laurel tree leaves as something heroic, or for heroes to wear as something positive. If anything I see it as men showcasing their triumph over the female who lost her life due to the egos of Cupid and Apollo. In today's world Cupid, Apollo and the father would have stood trial for the attempted rape, and murder. I see the tragedy in this poem, not romance. :(
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I have trouble when we try to interpret literature and/or history applying our 21st century standards. How would the Ovid's contemporaries view this myth? It seems to me that Daphne is punished because she is beautiful. That beauty lures men to lose control.
Faced with the expectation that she will produce grandchildren for her father, Daphne begs: "Dearest father, let me be a virgin for ever! Diana’s father granted it to her.’ He yields to that plea, but your beauty itself, Daphne, prevents your wish, and your loveliness opposes your prayer."Kline
As Daphne is pursued by Apollo, she prays to her own father:
"Help me, Father! If your streams have divine power,
Destroy this too pleasing beauty of mine
By transforming me."
Ovid seems to say here that Daphne brings about her own transformation. In the end, Daphne (the laurel tree), Apollo claims the tree for his own. So Daphne, even transformed is not free of him. But she preserves her virginity. "And seemed to nod her leafy crown in assent." or in resignation. Young girls who die rather than give up their virginity, were made saints in the early Christian church, and as late as the 1930s Maria Goretti dies other than submit and is canonized by the Catholic Church. A decade or so ago, a midwestern judge found a man innocent of rape because the young teen girls, who were the victims, were "asking for it" by the way they dressed.
I am sure that this is not the only lesson that Ovid wants his readers to absorb, but it seems to be there.
Questions:
1. How does Cupid transform from the vengeful god of this myth into the sweet baby on Valentine's Day cards? Will he appear again in the myths?
2. Doesn't the theme of cocky young men being punished by the gods come up again in the tale of Narcissus and Echo?
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We are all seeing a different angle to this story - much like the photos showing various views of the statue ;)
I still see what these quotes are all about - that cupid like all the gods are within us as allegories to the human condition that yes, we must take into consideration the mores of the time - before our Christian sensibilities - and when women were at the mercy of the power of men - patriarchy - when you know nothing else the choices in life are very different - I think it is up to us not to judge or make impossible options for any of these characters based on freedoms not even heard of - so substituting today's alternatives and we miss the rich analogy.
How today does a spark of passion affect us - how do we experience a spark of passion - Cupid's role is to light the spark of passion in another and because of historical sensibilities the only suitable gender who could act on and receive a spark of passion is the male.
Have you ever wanted something and gone after it - have you ever passionately loved a child, an adult that you wanted to be with them - protect them by warning them of the brambles (cars in the street), volunteered to save a life or fought as a soldier because of you passion for this country, passionately loved.
Have you ever created something out of passion that grew as if a tree affecting many more than the satisfaction you had at the time of your passion?
This story is coming on the heals of a world stripped of humanity - we may know it was impossible since there are several who are trailing DNA to our roots in Africa where as the Greek and Roman World - the oldest skeleton remains were found in Ethiopia - the mouth of the Black Sea where we surmise this flood took place is over 5,500 miles away
Those on the trail of DNA found modern humans solely in Africa between 200,000 and 60,000 years ago - and more recently another source of early man A femur found by chance on the banks of a west Siberian river in 2008 is that of a man who died around 45,000 years ago.
It is only the imagination of those writing who thought the flood covered the entire world - we do not know - we read in Darby Nelson's book of a lake far larger than the Black Sea that finally broke its banks and it did not cover all of North America - it did widen the Mississippi into a major river and did cover much of the Northern part of this country but the entire area now the US was not covered in water.
So Ovid's story is just that a fairytale - a myth - telling a story that the behavior of all life, human or not, is imagined with the impetus for 'being' explained best as containing the soul of a god - and yes, like it or not compared to today's sensibilities the social behavior between these gods is built on a male dominate system.
If it helps we can even take this out of the realm of behavior and look strictly at the biological nature of passion - we have seen those movies of the sperm traveling helter-skelter toward the womb hoping to get there before the deluge timed with the menstrual cycle washes them away.
Did the passion that culminated in the birth of our children come about from revenge or the result of a heartfelt expression of love - did our womb open itself to every bit of the expression of love - we may have but, even before birth control, nature protected us from multiple births impregnated by all the racing Apollos heading for the womb.
Any myth offers us multiple analogies but to see them I think we need to get past judging the characters and look within ourselves, do the work to find the comparisons and similarities within our own life.
Without Cupid's arrow none of these quotes could exist.
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTO5NwVsVr5aIfTMs_gxDqhP--vipBln-fG4XSfWx_V-jHUJZn0) (http://image.slidesharecdn.com/creativityandinnovationquotes-140924163931-phpapp02/95/creativity-and-innovation-quotes-45-638.jpg?cb=1430855902) (http://www.bestquotes4ever.com/img/picture-quotes/19m.jpg) (http://quotepixel.com/images/quotes/inspirational/quotes-creativity-means_16363-1.png)
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Remember when...
(http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2014/08/20/gregor2_custom-c8214189bda85b6ce9baafc8dc9f3143bcda6ae3-s1600-c85.jpg)
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Slightly off subject, but while a lot of us are here, I just found out the one of the people who I work with at the library expressed a wish that she could teach a class in Greek. Since she had already left for the day,I couldn't tell her about our Latin classes and our former Greek classes.
Is there any interest in learning Greek? Perhaps I can persuade her to look into doing one here. I am always ever so hopeful that someday we can get one started again.
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Barb, that's hilarious. I kind of wish kids still had to diagram sentences. They don't even seem to be capable of figuring out what's the subject of their sentence.
Frybabe, I'd love to learn both Greek and Latin, but any language work I do just now has to be focussed on brushing up my Spanish, which I'm increasingly needing.
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Bellamarie said: I see the tragedy in this poem, not romance.
When we consider that two of the three characters here are gods, do you think Ovid is saying something about the relationship of gods and man? And if he is, what does it seem to you he's saying?
Barbara, I miss diagramming. I loved diagramming and thought it was the MOST fun ever. Where did you get that illustration?
Your examples in photos are amazing. The quote by Yo Yo Ma seems to talk about Ovid when it says "Passion is the one great force that unleashes creativity. If you're passionate about something, then you are more willing to take risks."
That could be an anthem for Ovid in the Metamorphoses, couldn't it?
I'm still not sure what kind of "passion" this is that Apollo has, though. It doesn't seem he's thinking much of Daphne's feelings or happiness, but again as you say it was a man's world.
But surely we could not say HE won?
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Karen, I love all your points here! Not only in the early Empire but Ovid was the most popular Latrin writer of the Renaissance, and that's saying something. I find that amazing.
I am not sure that we can actually put ourselves in the ancient reader's shoes. What a great question! Because they DID have their own mindset and some of their idioms can't be translated even today.
The Oxford Companion to Classical Literature says the poem seems to have been composed from 2 A.D. onward. They say "Ovid's poetry had made him a leading figure in the social and literary circles at Rome
....It says that he was very influential on later Roman writers and was read, quoted, and adapted during the Middle Ages. It seems that he was pretty popular, not only during his own time but in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. But we don't know what they thought about the individual episodes, or if we do, I don't have that to hand.
There was a lot of carrying off of women as trophies, however, in ancient history and cultures. Even the founding of Rome had the "rape of the Sabine Women." Perhaps they looked on this one as one of those.
Here the great god of healing can't heal himself, and the great god of prophesy failed to see what was going to happen.
Irony abounds.
Now THIS is an element I missed:
"Help me, Father! If your streams have divine power,
Destroy this too pleasing beauty of mine
By transforming me."
Ovid seems to say here that Daphne brings about her own transformation.
Wow. I missed that, entirely! So she thought Apollo would lose his interest if she were not pretty?
What do all of your translations say in this part?
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Diagramming! That had to be the worst of the worst of my English class experience. Ginny m a y have noticed that I tend to run away and hide when we do sentence structures in Latin class. I always consider with wonder how I manage to write well in spite of it.
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2. Doesn't the theme of cocky young men being punished by the gods come up again in the tale of Narcissus and Echo?
Yes and that's not the only one. If we get to Narcissus and Echo we might want to consider what parallels Apollo and Narcissus had? And again you'd have a hard time saying in the Echo bit who suffered the worst punishment.
And again, it was a god who caused the issue, at least for Echo.
That's a good question on Cupid. Yes, Cupid appears in the Metamorphoses again, with Pluto and Proserpina, and that's another seize and capture type of thing with the Latin word rapio from which we get "rape," and the later art called "The Rape of Proserpine" which actually means the carrying off of Proserpina. Whatever he did, she's transported to the Underworld. Later on Venus and Cupid have a conversation in which she seems to tell him he's got control of two of the major gods so she should try for the third.
He seems to be her enabler.
Cupid and Apollo argue as to who is the most powerful, in this story, and Cupid shows him, once and for all.
So: Advantage: Cupid. I guess we can (as shown by Barbara's photos) say we can relate to a cultural truth value here that passion can overcome reason, and make somebody take lots of risks to their reputation?
I'm wondering what Cupid represents.
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Frybabe, that's exciting! I'm sending you an email on it.
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Mkaren:
I have trouble when we try to interpret literature and/or history applying our 21st century standards.
Daphne undergoes two transformations. The first, which she didn't ask for, changed her feelings toward men into loathing. She asked for the second, though it's not clear whether she knew what the result would be.
Is this a good ending or a bad one for Daphne? It depends on what you value. In some other myths, being turned into a plant, or a constellation, or whatever seems to be regarded as a good thing. You get immortality, and you're remembered--an important cultural value. So maybe it's good, I don't know.
For myself, I don't much care for the idea of hanging around as a tree rather than a short but merry mortal life. And if I had to adorn the brow of some general, I'd probably try to scratch him in the eye with a pointy leaf tip.
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And I didn't realize it until I read Pat's post, but this is also an aetiological myth: the origin of the laurel wreath for victory.
I'm still not sure whose victory it is.
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Ginny:
I'm still not sure whose victory it is.
I'm not either. And Apollo also wears the laurel wreath. Is this a tender reminder of the one he loved, or an irritating reminder that she got away?
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PatH., And if I had to adorn the brow of some general, I'd probably try to scratch him in the eye with a pointy leaf tip.
OMG. I am laughing out loud at your remark Pat. I'm with you, I would make sure when he put that wreath on his head it would poke his scalp!
I know we should not judge this by modern day standards, but we all seem to fall back on doing just that even once we point it out not to. After I posted early this morning, I left to do my volunteer work with girls/women who come for support and education during and after their unplanned baby is born. I kept thinking about Daphne, and how even though she begged her father to transform her to save her from being raped by Apollo, she still is a victim. Had Cupid not involved her in his revenge on Apollo, Daphne could have remained a beautiful goddess rather than a tree. And again, I know I should not compare this to modern day, BUT........I thought about Ginny's statement saying it would not be news in today's headlines, but that made me think about past headlines of a fraternity on a campus where young college boys were accused of raping a young college girl..... Hmmmm...I thought about Cupid and Apollo flexing their muscles of strength and skill resulting in Daphne's predicament, being similar to the college boys spiking the girls drink with a roofie and then assaulting her for their simple pleasure of showing off their manliness. So, yes, as in A.D., and even today, we have the same behaviors of men needing to show off, substance altering the mind, and the female being the victim of their ignorant, immature pranks. Yep, I would surely scratch Apollo's eyes out with the pointy leaf tips.
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I have no idea what site I looked at and found the diagram - I just took one look and seeing the word transformation had to take it on an Apollo run, here for us to enjoy - I must say for me personally as a kid it was my saving grace - I finally understood how words related to each other in a sentence so I was not memorizing by rote how to talk -
I grew up in a household that as a young child before the age of 6 we talked more German than English - and so going to school trying to switch around words in a different order was pure memory work like memorizing a poem every day - even after we spoke exclusively English at home it was confusing till finally I learned to diagram a sentence - the gates opened and the sun shined, flowers bloomed, the sky was blue and I was at peace so that I could even make friends in the playground and not feel overwhelmed with how to speak.
I'd already had a serious love affair with reading and where the sentences smoothly rolled together I could not duplicate saying them off the cuff so to speak until I finally understood the structure - I wonder how many kids today who come to America with no English would have an easier time of it if they still taught diagramming sentences in school.
Well if the victory was measured in how Apollo added to re-populating the earth he came in last didn't he.
You know, all this raping of women - seems to me there are still communities in places like Kazakhstan and even the mountains of Romania where an old practice of kidnapping your bride is the way of things - one of those nations - vaguely I am remembering it was Turkmenistan, were attempting to put a stop to it - the boys kidnap a girl they desire without the girl even knowing her kidnapper and she is forcefully married to the sorrow of the girls parents. This was on some PBS something and described as an ancient tradition that is still practiced. And so you have to wonder if maybe Apollo being concerned for Daphne running through the briers and wilds was a more gentle and solicitous kidnapper than would be typical of a girl's capture.
I still see a myth that yes, may give a clue to how folks lived and thought but, is essentially an embroidered fairytale like Little Red Riding Hood being hoodwinked by a wolf who had eaten her grandmother and the huntsmen saves the girl.
The story sure lets us know the value placed on a virgin - as a virgin who becomes a laurel bush and her branches crown the heads of kings from Caesar to Napoleon and winning Olympic athletes to an ingredient in Italian tomato sauce, she is quite the memorial to virginity - Maybe Cupid needed to dart both Apollo and Daphne however, I still like the idea of Daphne becoming the protective tree to life - keeps Apollo in check from taking too many risks in his passionate creativity. ;)
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Barb, What an interesting story of your life with learning English. I loved diagramming sentences in English class. My grandchildren go to a Catholic parochial school and they still diagram sentences. I got a kick out of helping one of my granddaughter's with her English homework.
I still see a myth that yes, may give a clue to how folks lived and thought but, is essentially an embroidered fairytale like Little Red Riding Hood being hoodwinked by a wolf who had eaten her grandmother and the huntsmen saves the girl.
I agree. After reading Ovid, I do believe Mythology is my least favorite genre to read. I am a bit OCD and need structure, logic, and patterns, and for me this is quite the opposite. He is all over the place, seeming to make it up as he goes. I can almost picture him at his desk, with quill in hand, pondering what comes next, and how to shock the reader. This is not critical whatsoever, for his time he was a genius writer. He pushed the limits in his writing knowing it would be seen, and taking the risks show he was willing to go to places with his writings others may not have dared to.
I'm too headstrong to be the damsel in distress, or kidnapped by someone and forced to marry, tho it may be customs in other countries I find it repulsive, and no way am I willing to become a tree, when I could roam the universe, beauty and all. I would have grabbed that bow and arrow from Cupid and shot him and Apollo with the arrow of love and let them fall in love with each other. Now who is being hubris..... hee hee, I jest. ;)
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Bellamarie, you gave me my morning laugh with that one. I love it. ;D
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Well now this is very interesting. I have never read or heard of Die Verwandlung, and I know I've read some Kafka, but I know I've never read that book and I now am totally intrigued as to our reading here, and what it signifies, period. I can get a book of all his short stories delivered here Tuesday (in the snow) in paperback for 12.00 and I am quite interested to read how it's different from the Arachne story which Ovid did.
I appreciate the mention of this book. Arachne whom Minerva or Athena turned into a spider, is in a later book than we will read but I love things that come out of a good book discussion, that take you in different directions.
Thank you PatH and Barbara, for that interesting mention.
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But is it Apollo's fault? What an interesting question. Why are we blaming Apollo? It's not HER fault, so it has to be his?
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I agree Pat - the ahum laurel crown for comedy goes to Bellamarie - seems several writers were taken by the story of Archne - here is a Pablo Neruda that was inspired by the story.
Ode To Sadness -
Sadness, scarab
with seven crippled feet,
spiderweb egg,
scramble-brained rat,
bitch's skeleton:
No entry here.
Don't come in.
Go away.
Go back
south with your umbrella,
go back
north with your serpent's teeth.
A poet lives here.
No sadness may
cross this threshold.
Through these windows
comes the breath of the world,
fresh red roses,
flags embroidered with
the victories of the people.
No.
No entry.
Flap
your bat's wings,
I will trample the feathers
that fall from your mantle,
I will sweep the bits and pieces
of your carcass to
the four corners of the wind,
I will wring your neck,
I will stitch your eyelids shut,
I will sew your shroud,
sadness, and bury your rodent bones
beneath the springtime of an apple tree.
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Here is a rather nice online copy of Die Verwandlung that can be read in less than an hour - after each chapter you do have to go to the side drop window and hit the next of the three chapters. In other words the site does not automatically go from chapter to chapter.
https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/k/kafka/franz/metamorphosis/index.html
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/IoDavidTenier%20theElde%20%281582649%29.jpg)
Io by David Teniers the Elder (1582–1649)
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/iomoon.jpg)
Io, one of the 4 main moons of Jupiter. The others are: —Europa, Ganymede and Callisto. All are featured in Ovid.
(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free. Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
For Your Consideration:
“Week” Three: Tales of Gods and Humans, February 9--?
Second and Third Tales: Io, and Pan and Syrinx
1) Bk I:568-587 Inachus mourns for Io
Bk I:587-600 Jupiter’s rape of Io
Bk I:601-621 Jupiter transforms Io to a heifer
Bk I:622-641 Juno claims Io and Argus guards her
Bk I:642-667 Inachus finds Io and grieves for her
Bk I:668-688 Jupiter sends Mercury to kill Argus
2) Bk I:689-721 Mercury tells the story of Syrinx
Bk I:722-746 Io is returned to human form
1. What to you is the saddest thing in the Io story?
2. This story is full of beautiful descriptions. Which lines particularly struck you? Do they interfere with the plot line?
3. What effect do the flashback elements and the interruption of the Pan and Syrinx have on the reader's feelings for Io?
4. What would you say is the tone of the Io story?
5. This is quite a story, it has two metamorphoses and two aetiological myths in it. Which one is the most important?
6. What might Io's struggles to communicate symbolize in our own time?
7. Who actually has the last word in this section?
8. What's your impression of Io's father?
9. If you had to choose between being Io or Daphne, which one would you choose? Why?
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
Thank you, Pat!
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I like the Neruda.
Ginny: why are we blaming Apollo?
I guess I automatically blame him for pursuing her because he is deliberately doing so--active not passive--and persists in spite of her rejection. But he may not have a choice. The arrow's influence may compel him to keep on, in spite of everything. Of course he started the whole thing by taunting Cupid, but he couldn't have predicted how Cupid would react.
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I agree Pat. Apollo is overcome with passion after being hit by Cupids arrow. That is not all. Daphne flees after being struck with the rejection arrow. As usual the gods are manipulating humans and other gods. Is Cupid forcing each of them to go against his or her will? Apollo is chasing Daphne to satisfy his passion, which he wants to do, and Daphne flees him to preserve her virginity, which she does when she is transformed.
I don't know if any of you fell into reading romance novels usually set in the eighteenth century. In the first chapters the heroine is raped but at the conclusion she has fallen passionately in love with the rapist and "they lived happily ever after." The women's movement revealed to me how destructive these novels could be to women. Powerlessness was rewarded with everlasting control by this rapist. Daphne may have been better off as a tree. Especially if she could poke Apollo's eye out with a leaf from her branches.
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MKaren,
I don't know if any of you fell into reading romance novels usually set in the eighteenth century. In the first chapters the heroine is raped but at the conclusion she has fallen passionately in love with the rapist and "they lived happily ever after." The women's movement revealed to me how destructive these novels could be to women. Powerlessness was rewarded with everlasting control by this rapist.
Yes, even in some soap operas, like General Hospital, Luke raped Laura and then they became the lovestory of all times in soaps. Many romance novels I read years ago had the man pursuing the woman against her protesting, and it seemed to be common for the message to say, a woman doth protests too much, meaning she is asking for the pursuant to continue. So, NO meant YES to the writers of these love stories, soap operas, poems and even operas. A bit sadistic if you ask me.
Apollo indeed set this in motion, since he felt the need to brag and insult Cupid. But, Cupid had no right to act as he did and bring Daphne into the middle of their war of who is stronger. In today's time it would be referenced to two men's pissing war. (excuse my choice of words :-[) lololol Not sure about anyone else but I am ready to move on. I can't find much else to say on this topic.
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Somewhat lost in her flight, fleeing, and fate, is that Daphne starts out:
"Delighting in the deep woods, wearing the skins
Of animals she caught, modeling herself
On the virgin Diana"
In other words, an independent woman who supports herself by hunting and doesn't need men for support or sex. Instead, she becomes a victim who has to appeal to a man for even a limited existence.
I'm wondering if this is, to the ancients, the female version of HUBRIS. if women think they can survive without men, they are punished.
When we read Greek plays here a few years ago, we started out with Virginia Woolf's question: why did Greece, a society that was hard on women, produce a literature with so many strong women characters? We read three plays centering on strong women. we didn't answer the question, but we did see a mix of emotion toward them: admiration, fear, etc.
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Actually that is what the story of Red Riding hood is all about - the original medieval story she is NOT wearing a red hood or red cap - when Perrault collected and tweaked the story for publication he brought some political overtones and red was already the mark of what later became the French revolutionaries - the original she represents Spring with her May basket and she did have a wreath of red roses in her hair - the message being two fold - girls should be careful if in the woods alone and if they are in trouble only a man is capable of saving them.
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I am trying now to figure out why Ovid has lasted as a book so many enjoy reading - Usually a story is about what happens and how it affects someone who is trying to achieve what turns out to be a difficult goal, and how he or she changes as a result. - What happens is the plot and Someone is the protagonist - the goal is the question and the change is what the story is about.
Kline's translation of the first sentence that Ovid set up his story - I want to speak about bodies changed into new forms. You, gods, since you are the ones who alter these, and all other things, inspire my attempt, and spin out a continuous thread of words, from the world's first origins to my own time.
Ok that sounds to me like we have a goal - but who is the protagonist and what is the over arching plot - so far it sounds like a book of short stories and within each there is a plot and a protagonist as well as change - sometimes the protagonist is earth or water and so far some stories have a god as the protagonist - but what is the over arching story we are looking at here - is it simply a menu of examples that satisfy the goal?
What is pulling us to want to read the next short story? Metamorphose/Change/Transformation may be an intriguing goal but is it enough to read 15 books about how others change within a short story format? Are we seeing any change in Ovid or are we to read this with ourselves as the protagonist asking only what does this mean to me and to observe our own change?
So far the page turners have been learning what these stories mean for those of us engaged in this pursuit and any urgency is created as we share our found background research and our individual take on what we read - however, I am not feeling or seeing the author's burning intent and yet, we seem to have passed a tipping point mostly on the strength of the short stories or antidotes about gods and goddesses and nymphs and all manner of heavenly hosts that we have heard about and are now analyzing.
Are there really 15 books of stories about Roman and Greek gods and goddesses - how is Ovid tying them together differently than say Bullfinch that simply lists them in a table of contents? Since the first sentence starts with I - can we assume the protagonist is Ovid and how will we know when he has solved his goal - is it when he has shared all the stories he knows that show change in the protagonist?
Yep, I am feeling scattered and cannot figure out what is the overarching conflict or what is at stake for Ovid or if he is writing this so that we are the protagonists to our own understanding of change, metamorphose - what is the point of Ovid's book? So far it is a litany of stuff happening...
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Barb, the book might not have the sort of overall structure you're looking for,and be, as you said, more like a lot of short stories. Ovid does connect his stories, though, at least so far. Python is the last creature formed by the earth after the flood. Apollo kills Python, and his boasting about it goads Cupid into shooting Apollo and Daphne. We're just about to start the next section, which begins with a conference of rivers, implicitly to talk to Daphne's father. One river is absent, Io's father; he's too sad, because he doesn't know where Io is. So we move into the story of Io. At one point, Mercury plays his reed pipe, or syrinx, to distract Io's guard, and that leads to the story of Pan and Syrinx, embedded in Io's story. The next story, of Phaethon, starts with a squabble between Phaethon and Io's son.
Perhaps a bigger pattern will emerge, but even if it doesn't, it's good poetry, and good stories.
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Barb,
what is the point of Ovid's book?
Well, now I believe for centuries scholars have been asking this very question. There really is NO one particular point that I can tell, and it's not just myself, but from all the research I have done since we began this discussion, which has been hours upon hours outside of my comments here. First and foremost we keep using the word "Hubris" to describe Ovid. The definition of hubris is:
hu·bris
ˈ(h)yo͞obrəs/
noun
excessive pride or self-confidence.
synonyms: arrogance, conceit, haughtiness, hauteur, pride, self-importance, egotism, pomposity, superciliousness, superiority; More
(in Greek tragedy) excessive pride toward or defiance of the gods, leading to nemesis.
My personal take on Ovid is he was indeed hubris, or another way to put it, full of himself. He wanted to create a piece of literature that would withstand the test of time. In his prologue he said it very clearly:
Lombardo's translation
Invocation
My mind now turns to stories of bodies changed
Into new forms, O Gods, inspire my beginnings
(For you changed them too) and spin a poem that extends
From the world’s first origins down to my own time.
Interestingly, in Lombardo's translation he has a friend write an Introduction that gives his take on Ovid and the poem:
Since, despite his hints to the contrary, he really has no grand narrative to control, he is not required to invent and maintain a traditional omniscient narrator. Instead, he can construct a sort of unreliable pseudo-omniscient narrator who, after establishing his credentials early in the poem, is free to pop in and out of the poem as is whim chooses and to play ventriloquist when his imagination has fastened on a new tale or a new protagonist and it seems proper for a new character to tell his or her own story or someone else’s story. This freedom may make for some degree of disorder, but it fosters a pleasing variety of voices and vantages, and in addition to releasing him from the onerous duties which a traditional omniscient narrator would impose on him it permits him to choose whatever tone suits him in any given tale (dispassionate, skeptical, judgmental, empathetic) without worrying much if this variation in attitude does damage to a unified persona or to its coherent moral code and its omniscience. Such freedom does not mean that the inventor of this narrative strategy is committed to flippancy (ever the poeta ludens, the poet at play) or that he places himself beyond good and evil. This narrator cares deeply about injustice and corrupted power and inexplicable suffering even if such concerns are never explicitly announced but instead lie veiled beneath the flux and the flow of the stories told by him or the storytellers who replace him. This freedom from omniscience means, moreover, that Ovid can concentrate on sharpening his technical skills, that he can focus his attention on inventing the short story, if that seems too wild a claim, on perfecting the idea of the short story.
That oxymoronic fusion of the real and the imaginary is near the heart of fiction, in the creation of his people and their voices, Ovid is among its supreme masters.
W.R. Johnson
University of Chicago
Lombardo writes: In the process I have come to appreciate the subtle depths below the bright, shifting surface of these stories told in verse, subtleties into which W.R. Johnson has initiated us in his introduction to this volume, as it admirably lays out the general thrust of the entire poem. Ever since the publication of his Darkness Visible, he has been one of my heroes, and I respectfully dedicate this translation to him.
Stanley Lombardo
University of Kansas
https://books.google.com/books?id=mwMLFWjHpQIC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
I tend to agree with W.R. Johnson's analysis of Ovid and his Metamorphoses. Ovid did not confine himself, his narrator, or his poem to any singular structure. He intended to show that changes occur throughout life, space, humans, animals, gods, behaviors, and thoughts. He wanted to create something that would last a lifetime, even though life changes.
PatH., You pretty much nailed it.... the book might not have the sort of overall structure you're looking for.
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And you nailed it too, Bellamarie. I'm reading Lombardo, and I've read that introduction, but I totally forgot it said that.
And Barb, it does look like the book is sort of a short story collection.
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Yes Johnson is good. You can't beat him, unless it's Anderson, for analysis. Of course again they are only giving their opinions, but they are learned and are unlikely to lead us astray. We may be astray (hahaha) but at least we are astray with some scholarship behind it combined with your own acute ability to read texts. I think it's a winning combination.
The hubris I intend is nothing to do with Ovid, it's about the themes, the cultural truth values we can see in his stories. Interesting to think he himself had it. What theme in his stories, not necessarily moral, can we identify with? Why would the ancients repeat this story unless it resonated with them? Can it resonate with us?
I loved the Luke and Laura comparison Bellamarie did and the Romantics comparison Karen did. I have not read a lot of that literature and found that fascinating.
One theme Ovid does repeat is hubris of his characters toward the gods. In the Daphne story I don't see it, actually, do any of you? Who was so proud against the gods (the two gods themselves?) that they needed to be punished? Usually it's mortals vs the gods, think Wang Lung of The Good Earth fame. Not here. But we all see Metamorphosis, that's for sure.
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/daphneapolloanddaphne.jpg)
Poor Daphne. From my point of view, I think SHE won. She wanted to keep her virginity, she did. She had to give up running about through the woods, but it apparently would have been only a matter of time till Jupiter saw her and she'd be running again.
Apollo wanted her, he got a tree. His putting on the laurel crown means nothing. He wanted the maid, he got a tree. He's a god. He's the biggest loser in more ways than one: he's the god of prophecy, he missed this one. He got a tree.
Barbara, thank you so much for putting the Kafka in here, that's a beautiful copy too. I think we ought to wait and take up Arachne first and then read IT and compare. What a fabulous experience that would be.
As far as the format, it seems to me it's like Harry Potter for adults. We're about to get to Phaethon, Ovid's crowning achievement in description. It's glorious, just glorious.
There WERE no "novels" as we understand them in ancient Rome. There WAS no fiction with the one exception of Apuleius and his Golden Ass (titled The Metamorphoses or the Golden Ass). He lived (flourished as they like to say) around 155 A.D.
The Golden Ass is a Latin romance in 11 books. Ovid's Metamorphoses is 15 books.
The Golden Ass is a narrative by a young man named Lucius who goes to Thessaly, home of sorceries and enchantments. There, while getting too close to the black arts, he is turned into an ass, falls into the hands of robbers, and becomes an unwilling participant in their adventures.
The Cupid and Psyche story is one of the most famous of his exploits. He is transformed back into human shape by the goddess Isis and becomes Apuleius himself. The descriptions in the book are marvelous, full of tales of what life was like at that time with colloquial speech mixed with Greek.
THIS is the only extant Latin novel of fiction, and you can see Ovid preceded it by a long time, there was nothing like what he's doing in his time.
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Time to move on. We get Io next. It's long; let's go up to the embedded story of Pan and Syrinx and stop there for now.
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I'm still enjoying everybody's posts, looking for the one from JoanK back there that I wanted to say something about, but I just noticed PatH's response about what is the continual thread between these and had not noticed when we read that there IS some attempt, at least so far, to link one to the other, almost as if we were in the mind of the poet, as in ...oh that reminds me of Io, or Phaethon or something.
That was VERY good! Never saw that mentioned anywhere before.
Here it is, from Joan K:
I'm wondering if this is, to the ancients, the female version of HUBRIS. if women think they can survive without men, they are punished.
When we read Greek plays here a few years ago, we started out with Virginia Woolf's question: why did Greece, a society that was hard on women, produce a literature with so many strong women characters? We read three plays centering on strong women. we didn't answer the question, but we did see a mix of emotion toward them: admiration, fear, etc.
Now there is a thought. Greek women lived abominably. There was a world of difference in being a Greek woman and a Roman woman. I just wonder, too, now. Super point! That makes me wonder what point Ovid, a Roman, is making with his old Greek stories, it's his chance to make it right. Is he taking it?
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We couldn't have found a more exciting poem about passionate love on this Valentine's Day. But, oh...what the pagans suffered at the hands of their gods! Don't talk to me about human hubris. These gods are out of control. It's all Cupid's fault.
Somewhere in the house I have an album with a dozen valentines I got in the fifth grade. But not from the girl I really liked. I'm going to hug the first laurel tree I see.
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JONATHAN: :)
I like the idea of Ovid as the inventor of the short story. That certainly is the way Pat and I learned the Greek "myths" as children: as a bunch of short stories.
there's also the "compendium" aspect of the poem. To some extent, he's collecting all the stories he knows and preserving him
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Great - puts a brand mark on the books - Ovid's compendium of short stores. :)
I did not know that cupid was the child of Venus - interesting - and that by accident one of cupid's arrows scratched his mother so we have Venus hit by the passion bug from cupid's arrow as she goes after Adonis... tra la making the connections.
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I was just reading a review (The Cato Policy Report for Jan/Feb 2016) of a book by Matt Ridley called The Evolution of Everything: How New Ideas Emerge. He applies Darwinian evolution to ideas and society as a whole. One of the paragraphs in the review said:
Gods are another thing that evolve. In the Bronze Age, gods were vengeful and petty tyrants who got very upset if you offended them, and had really rather mundane concerns in their lives. Now they’re disembodied spirits of benevolence, and there tends to be only one of them. That’s a change that you can see gradually coming through history at different times and in different places.
He also mentioned Lucretius and his De Rerum Natura.
Well!
More changes.
I think I am going to see about getting the book. My curiosity is peeked.
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Oh Jonathan you can always make me laugh out loud. Valentine's from fifth grade, and hugging a laurel tree! :)
Frybabe, gods were vengeful and petty tyrants who got very upset if you offended them
Well Cupid is a perfect example of this statement.....don't tick him off.
So I have read the next section over and over and over again, and just don't know where to begin. Ughhh....
And do not be afraid to find yourself
alone among the haunts of savage beasts:
within the forest depths you can be sure
of safety, for your guardian is a god__
and I am he who holds within his hand
the heaven's scepter: I am whe who hurls
the roaming thunderbolts. So do not flee!"
But even as he spoke, she'd left behind
the pasturelands of Lerna, and the plains
around Lyrceus' peak, fields thick with trees.
Then with veil of heavy fog, the god
concealed a vast expanse of land; Jove stopped
her flight; he raped chaste Io.
I find these actions Ovid has placed on Jove/Jupiter ironic, when in researching this god I found this:
http://www.britannica.com/topic/Jupiter-Roman-god
Jupiter was not only the great protecting deity of the race but also one whose worship embodied a distinct moral conception. He is especially concerned with oaths, treaties, and leagues, and it was in the presence of his priest that the most ancient and sacred form of marriage (confarreatio) took place.
Why does Ovid contradict the behavior of the great protector, having him rape Io? Is this an oxymoron?
Jove tells Io she is safe with him because he is the protector and holds the heaven's scepter in his hands, then turns light into darkness and rapes her.
Rape seems to be the theme for Ovid's mindset with man possessing women. Women protest and run, man pursues and rapes her, then turns her into the form of an animal or inanimate object.
I am just shaking my head at this ........ :o :o
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That is fascinating, Frybabe. It sounds like another good offspring book of this discussion. I love what you're making of it.
We are about to move on to the Io story but are not yet decided on whether to stop before Pan or continue on. The Pan thing is an interference. But there are some things we can do first.
But Bellamarie, you are right. Ugg in major detail.
Ovid didn't invent this myth, it's part of an older Greek tradition, Aeschylus in his story Prometheus. The story in Aeschylus is serious, it's a tragedy. Cruel Zeus. Poor Io. Poor Prometheus. Happy escape, maybe Prometheus can, too. There were other takes on it by others too..
But here as Anderson puts it: "Ovid then continues with new story motif: namely the guilt of Jupiter as not only rapist but also adulterer, his trivial sense of morality and commitment as lover, the jealousy of Juno, a new reason for metamorphosis, the continued human awareness of Io after metamorphosis and her half comic half tragic sense of suffering, and finally her restoration as a human being (or nymph),. Ovid is a master of this technique of theme and variation."
So this is all Ovid and I wonder why? How would any of us like to be compared to Jupiter in THIS iteration? He's quite the trickster. Bernie Madoff has nothing on him, does he?
Where are these critics all getting the half comic half tragic issue of Io as a cow?
Are you all finding this funny?
I've read a stupendous commentary on this somewhere about what Io in cow form means to us today and of course I can't FIND it! But I will. What does her having go about as a cow seem to symbolize to us, do you think? In terms of 2016? Are there other ways today for one to go about in this type of hidden identity?
Frantically looking for this opinion because quite frankly that would never have occurred to me but once it does you can't see Io as cow any other way.
What do you think about Io as cow?
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And the beautiful, beautiful descriptions of all these rivers, etc. Lombardo:
There is a gorge in Thessaly with steep wooded slopes
That men call Tempe. The foam- flecked water
Of the Peneus River tumbles through this valley
From the foot of Mount Pindus, and its heavy descent
Forms clouds that drive along billowing mist,
Sprinkles the treetops with spray and, cascading down,
Fills even the distant hills with its roar..
Beautiful.. Nothing to do with rape and cows and jealousy. Is this a diversion? How do we feel about Io? Do we have any sympathy? Why or why not? Is Ovid doing something that might cause this do you think?
Why is all this here, any idea?
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Ginny, that verse of the poem is splendid, and I can close my eyes and imagine the beauty of Ovid's descriptions of nature and all her glory. He is mixing beauty and the beast in this part of the poem. Rapture and rape!
I have great sympathy for Io being raped and turned into a cow. Again, the male seems to triumph over the woman, by her no longer being able to go on in her true identity and form. :(
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Why does Ovid put in the description of the rivers? For its beauty certainly, but it's also one of his connectivity devices. The river is Peneus, and its god or spirit, Peneus, is Daphne's father. Peneus is calling a convocation of the rivers, at which the others notice that Inachus is absent. Inachus is Io's father, and is too full of grief to come.
Clever device.
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The cow is a symbolic item in nearly all the ancient mythology and religions - the cow is revered in Egyptian, Chinese, Hindu, Scandinavian, Celtic, and Greek mythology. The cow represents the Great Mother, all the moon goddesses, the productive power of earth, plenty, procreation, the maternal instinct. The horns are in a crescent shape representing both moon and earth.
If we keep confusing the word 'rape' with our present understanding of unwanted, power over, and aggressive action these stories will be lost on us.
As a god there is something about humankind that only later did we understand but in ancient history this 'something' was a power beyond what humans believed they controlled. There was no fleeing your circumstances - No safe home to run home and have a mom and dad make you feel everything was OK.
With no options, the concept of being in a fog is still with us when we describe our being dazed, disoriented, confused, and inattentive - having no idea where that feeling came from it is easy to place it as a god putting a veil over your ability to function.
As to Lo being a cow - this is a goddess not a human - this goddess has a purpose that is being shown - there were no books explaining and seeing the animals and all of nature as a guide to how things worked was common. Lo, as a cow nourishes and can suckle many at the same time - she could not be a pig, which also suckles many at the same time because pigs are, domesticated Boars that did not yet exist and a Boar is a brute of an animal associated with warfare.
We also have to realize sex as a loving act was not a part of a union. The furthering of the tribe was the issue - it is the basis for why women in the Middle East are covered and marriages are arranged so that there is control over the tribe. Part of the Helen story - Helen is a Spartan and Paris is Athenian. To this day in the Middle East, the wealth earned by a tribe is distributed to only those who are pure to that tribe and if a daughter marries outside the tribe than the entire family loses the annual dividends from the tribal investments that can be oil, land, buildings etc.
And so, Lo is put in a fog much as a women from the middle east wears a burka. Lo as a goddess is a cow and the job of this goddess among others is productive procreation as a mother to the earth.
When we plant a seed in the ground, we do not know how it was fertilized to become a plant. Animals they can see and know but do not yet know the process - and so what is not known must be the work of a god or a goddess or a heavenly identity or an identity from the underworld.
Without Lo the earth would be like the Sahara - no procreation of trees and grass - only wind and sand - as the great expanse she was fleeing into but was stopped by a fog. We can see that as an analogy to ourselves during a great trauma or sorrow when we want to emotionally flee and we are kept from deep madness by going into some sort of fog to give ourselves time to heal enough to continue.
After the death of a loved one we often are in a fog before we can cope. Once we are coping so to speak we are creating activity that is beneficial to ourselves and those around us. We are contributing again, we are productive, we have been touched or ‘raped’, as was Lo. Now surrounded with maternal power that helped us heal and as we in turn, take care of ourselves, those around us, our responsibilities to town and country. In other words, we sit down and do our Income Tax now that we are out of the fog of loss.
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The Peneus River through the Vikos Gorge.
http://visitheworld.tumblr.com/post/27509304134/vikos-gorge-in-pindus-mountains-epirus-greece
BTW, if you click on "It's a Beautiful World" you will see some totally awesome pix from all aroung the world.
Recent Mt. Pindos (Pindus) news: http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/11/25/ruins-of-ancient-greek-city-found-on-mount-pindos/
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No wonder it inspires such beautiful description.
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WOW! The story of Io got me from the first word! majestic, beautiful, tragic, and funny!
And a new role for Ovid: the inventor of Science Fiction! The guy with eyes all around who has his eyes take turns sleeping! (Why do I keep thinking of R2D2?)
I stopped at Pan, but can't wait to go on!
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There are no two ways to understand "rape" in Ovid's poem. He not only has the female goddess pursued against her will, but then uses the word rape. I am not looking for any romance, or love in his poem. No form of taking against one's will and then turning them into a new form to hide what you have done from your wife makes logic, whether you are turned into a cow, a heifer, a lamb or laurel tree. Keep in mind he was exiled in part because of the immorality of this poem, so even Augustus saw the disgust in it. He can describe nature in all its splendor, but it does not take away the ugliness of the acts committed against the female goddesses.
This thesis is very interesting and shows Ovid intends these acts of rape to be brutal and in no way turning the goddesses into any certain form is meant for a meaning of honor or heroic. Here are some excerpts:
University of Colorado, Boulder
CU Scholar
Undergraduate Honors Theses Honors Program
Spring 2014
Patterns of Rape in Ovid's Metamorphoses
Nikki Bloch
University of Colorado Boulder
The subject of rape is pervasive throughout Ovid’s Metamorphoses. The myths themselves are
by no means originals of the poet; however, his treatment of these stories is remarkably divergent
from his predecessors’ in that he provides a uniquely female perspective by outlining both the
victim’s suffering and the barbaric nature of the perpetrator. In Ovid’s representations of these
rape myths, rape is never glorified, even when it is committed by the gods. The metamorphoses
of female victims of rape in Ovid’s epic are representations of the victims’ emotional trauma,
even for those who are able to evade rape. The metamorphoses of the male perpetrators
symbolize their brutishness and unrefined power in committing the act of rape. Ovid further
expounds the suffering of female victims in his depictions of victim blaming and secondary
victimization at the hands of the goddesses. Ovid reexamines rape in these myths in depicting
the ongoing torment victims of rape endure and the inexcusable injustice of rape itself.
Rape in the Metamorphoses is presented as a
horrific atrocity, regardless of the characters involved in the act.
The metamorphoses of the victims of rape or attempted rape are highly illustrative of the
psychological toll of rape on them. In the Metamorphoses, the rape of a woman does not always
end in a victim’s transformation. However, the scenes in which transformation does take place
are graphic and unsettling. Metamorphosis of female victims can be broken into two categories,
one in which a victim’s metamorphosis acts as an escape from rape and the other in which
metamorphosis is a result of a completed rape.
As is observed in modernity, rarely does the suffering of victims in Ovid’s mythological
world culminate with the rape itself. These women, forcibly drawn into the affairs of the gods,
are doubly victimized, once by their rapists then again by the goddesses against whom truly the
gods, and not their helpless victims, commit offence. A woman’s beauty, often a source of pride,
becomes a dangerous quality to possess. Victims are faulted for their beauty as the cause for their
rape. Blamed for the very crime committed against them, victims of rape are physically
ostracized through their metamorphosis, a symbolic representation of societal rejection. In
rendering these victims, Ovid illustrates the complex sociological and psychological phenomena
that coincide with rape, namely the emotional trauma a victim undergoes from both the rape
itself and the societal response to the rape.
http://scholar.colorado.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1047&context=honr_theses
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Thanks for that, Bellamarie. As the saying goes, "The more things change, the more they stay the same."
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That is an interesting article, Bellamarie.
he provides a uniquely female perspective by outlining both the
victim’s suffering and the barbaric nature of the perpetrator
He seems to be saying that Ovid has produced an indictment of rape, by showing how indefensible it is, how brutish the perpetrator, and how touching the suffering of the victim.
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I really LOVE coming into this discussion! I absolutely love it. I love your individual ideas and research and opinions, they are all so varied.
Pat, that take on why the water is in there is fabulous. I have never seen it before and it's wonderful!
Frybabe, those gorgeous photos of the actual place, marvelous. Thank you!
I love the debate on rape with Barbara and Bellamarie. I think I'll stay out of it because there are a string of same to come, but I think everybody's thoughts add to the whole and make a splendid conversation. I thought Pat's explanation there of what Ovid might be doing in depicting Io, was eye opening. Never saw that either. What a valuable thing you've made of this, and so fun.
It's interesting that in astronomy in our own planets Jupiter's Objects of Desire should we say continue to revolve around him.
Here is Io:
Io is one of 4 moons of Jupiter. The others are: —Europa, Ganymede and Callisto.
That should say something to us.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Io_highest_resolution_true_color.jpg/520px-Io_highest_resolution_true_color.jpg)
Galileo spacecraft true-color image of Io. The dark spot just left of the center is the erupting volcano Prometheus. The whitish plains on either side of it are coated with volcanically deposited sulfur dioxide frost, whereas the yellower regions contain a higher proportion of sulfur.
Discovered by Galileo Galilei
Discovery date 8 January 1610
more...
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Bellamarie, you said Keep in mind he was exiled in part because of the immorality of this poem, so even Augustus saw the disgust in it.
Unfortunately this is not correct., The "carmen" part of Ovid's saying why he was exiled poem is thought to be almost certainly the Ars Amatoria, the art of the lover or how to seduce a married woman.
Dr. Travis explains why and the background of Augustus and Ovid and the issue here in Part B of the CAMS 1103 Introduction to Ovid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLf4yvpIA7Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLf4yvpIA7Y)
(In going to this or any other internet site, you must have good anti virus protection and Malware installed. They are free. Jane can assist in her Ask Jane column here on the site.)
It's also felt that this change of scene to a place in Thessaly, masks the real subject. Here we have a place called Tempe, surrounded by mountains, in which is the Pindus Mountain, an idyllic spot in ancient thought from which there is no exit save the river Peneus foaming down from the Pindus Mountain. I thought Ovid there (beautifully translated by Lombardo) was magnificent.
But the change of place and the descriptions, and the flashback...all this jumping around caused me to lose sight of the story. I wonder why? I missed the fact that the River Peneus is the father of Daphne. The tie in that Pat saw. She wasn't fooled. I was.
And the only river missing is Io's father, the River Inachus, who is off mourning the loss of his daughter, Io. Another tie in. It's not a segue at all, it's a tie in to the next story.
I also missed the somewhat salient fact that although the god Apollo did not succeed with Daphne, Jupiter did with Io. But what manliness, as he tries to avoid his wife/ sister's jealousy into something of a...what is he? Ridiculous and laughable figure. That scene where Juno asks for the cow is priceless. Ovid hints they both know that the cow is Io but they both avoid saying so, so they do a little pas de deux between them.
Ovid is having a good time with this. Io isn't. And I was totally thrown off guard by the descriptions, change of scenery and flashbacks. I suspect there is a reason for all this. Do you see ANY indications to you that Ovid wants us to feel sorry for Io? Or has he turned this entire thing into almost slapstick?
Remember how the Romans read or even listened to poetry. Would they have been thrown off track? Why throw the reader off track? Were YOU thrown off track?
What did YOU think about the Io scenes?
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Have any of you seen Io the moon? When they're in the right position, those four bright moons can be seen around Jupiter with ordinary binoculars. Once a neighbor let me look at them through his telescope. I didn't figure out which moon was which though.
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Ginny,
Unfortunately this is not correct., The poem is thought to be almost certainly the Ars Amatoria, the art of the lover or how to seduce a married woman.
I suppose depending on which link we choose we will find articles that support the Metamorphoses poem was seen as apolitical and amoral and was in part, of the decision for his exile along with him having an affair with a senator's wife. I have read numerous sites that say both, and that all his books were banned from the libraries. Earlier on I have listed different sites that do support this. But then again, I don't think anyone can determine an absolute.
Ginny, Ovid is having a good time with this. Io isn't. And I was totally thrown off guard by the descriptions, change of scenery and flashbacks. I suspect there is a reason for all this. Do you see ANY indications to you that Ovid wants us to feel sorry for Io? Or has he turned this entire thing into almost slapstick?
I can find NO humor in rape and turning Io into a cow to disguise the rape he has just committed so his wife does not find out. Io is a victim of a vicious act, as are many of Ovid's female characters.
Maybe this explains the humor some can find in Ovid's poem where rape has been committed and the taken lightly....
To modern audiences, equating rape with love is unpalatable, but as Richlin noted, Ovid had once written that women secretly enjoy being raped: “force is pleasing to girls”.[33] When read in this context, Ovid’s “loving” rapists make light of the violence and harm they have inflicted. The forceful passions of the gods and heroes are deemed benevolent, whether the girl wants them or not.
The effect of framing the act of rape in this way, and associating it with all gods and all mortals, is that the narratives normalise and tolerate rape.
http://foundinantiquity.com/2013/10/06/rape-culture-in-classical-mythology/comment-page-1/
So their beauty and refusal are reason enough for the male characters to rape them..... yep sounds much like today's way of thinking, the woman/girl asked for it because she was too revealing, too sexy, too flirty, too beautiful, too resistant to male advances. Nothing has changed throughout all the centuries, men committing the vicious act and then joking about it later, seeing it as a triumph. Makes me wonder what today's male imagines a girl he rapes turns into, a cat, a trophy, a joke about his conquest, etc., etc. I have dealt with rape victims, and know some personally and so maybe this subject is just a little too close for me to enjoy this poem and try to find slapstick humor here.
In his book Ars Amatoria, there is a quote on his attitude toward raping his female characters, est vis grata puellis
I find it a bit ironic how the name of this book is Metamorphoses, (change) yet....Quaedam numquam mutant
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I finally put up some questions, but some of them cover the whole thing, and will be easier to answer in a bit.
In this story the rape is only the beginning. Several more episodes follow, and there are several changes of tone, plus some interesting ideas. What do you think Ovid is doing with these changes of tone?
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The theme to his Metamorphoses seems to be the narrative of raping the goddesses to go to the next change, whether it be a child is born from the rape, or what consequences and different forms develop from the rapes.
Among the many narratives that appear in Ovid’s Metamorphoses, myths about rape are the most abundant.
http://scholar.colorado.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1047&context=honr_theses
While Robson argues that the metamorphosis of gods into animal form is a mark of sophistication and cunning, in the Metamorphoses is rather representative of their savagery.38 The predatory actions of rapists can
assume tragic or horrific proportions. They can also be comic, as a way showing how degraded the gods in particular can be when they are in amatory pursuit
In researching I found this thesis that was able to tell us how many rapes occur in Ovid's Metamorphoses:
There are episodes of rape in Ovid’s earlier and later works, but depictions of sexual violence
are most abundant in the Metamorphoses. In Ovid’s first venture into hexameter, there are
more than fifty tales of rape and attempted rape (Curran 1984: 263), a large number,
considering that the Metamorphoses is made up of only fifteen books. Some accounts are
long and detailed while others are merely referred to in passing. Rape victims are most likely
to be female and their rapists are most likely to be male; however, there is one very graphic
tale of the attempted rape of Hermaphroditus by a nymph, Salmacis. In the Metamorphoses,
male rapists appear to go largely unpunished1 and it seems that it is often the victims of rape
or the potential victims of rape who themselves suffer penalties for the crime.
It really makes me wonder exactly why it is that Ovid seemed to find rape as his segway into the next parts of his poem, and the connection to each of the gods and goddesses? Very troubling.
PatH., He seems to be saying that Ovid has produced an indictment of rape, by showing how indefensible it is, how brutish the perpetrator, and how touching the suffering of the victim.
Very observant of you! I posted that last night because I did not want to forget to comment on it today. I'm wondering how on earth Ovid a male could have any insight into what a female feels being raped. He can do his best to describe from his point of view, but unless and until he is a female it is only speculation. No where do I see his narrator turned into a female so he is able to tell us what it is like and how it feels to be raped as a female. He can express sympathy, but it is odd for me to understand how he is able to sympathize, yet continue to use this violent storyline throughout his entire 15 books of the Metamorphoses, and other books he wrote. A bit hypocritical.
This is yet another interesting thesis I found, worth reading to have a better understanding of Ovid the poet and his poems:
file:///C:/Users/Marie/Downloads/CHAMPANIS-MA-TR13-233.pdf
FEMALE CHANGES: THE VIOLATION AND VIOLENCE OF WOMEN IN OVID’S METAMORPHOSES
A thesis submitted in fulfilment of the requirements for the degree of MASTER OF ARTS of RHODES UNIVERSITY
by LEIGH ALEXANDRA CHAMPANIS
December 2012
"His interest and knowledge of women is clearly evident in works such as the Amores, the Ars Amatoria, the Heroides and the Metamorphoses.
Nevertheless, this interest in women divides Ovidian scholars and there appear to be three
main approaches taken in interpreting Ovid and this preoccupation with women. There are
three characterizations which are generally attached to Ovid: Ovid the misogynist, Ovid the
sympathetic poet, and Ovid the entertainer. This chapter will describe the relevant Ovid
scholarship and compare the different stances taken by those in the field with regards to the Metamorphoses."
I don't mean to only focus on Ovid's theme of rape, but we simply can not overlook it when he, himself uses it to take us to each new section of his poem.
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That's a lot of scholarly research, Bellamarie. So you can do a thesis on the theories about what Ovid is up to. I'm working through your references.
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The tale of Io has a lot of dramatic mood changes. We start with the wonderful description of natural beauty, the seat of the great river Peneus. Then sheer horror, as Jupiter chases Io and catches her. Then an abrupt change of tone to low comedy, as Juno looks down suspiciously at the mist—aha! that rat is cheating on me again—goes down, and neatly corners Jupiter into giving her the Io-heifer. Then the mood changes again.
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Ovid is punning again. When Juno first spots the mist and tries to figure out what's going on, she says:
Either I'm wrong or I'm being wronged. Lombardo
Either I'm mad or I am being had. Martin
Either I am wrong, or being wronged. Kline
I wonder what the Latin is.
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Humpty-Dumpty (Love) took a great fall. How can we ever forgive Ovid? Or should we thank him. A reaction obviously set in. With Christianity came chastity.
'Maiden, you are fit for Jupiter himself to love, and will make someone divinely happy when you share his couch.'
Being a god, The god, wasn't enough.
I felt even sorrier for Apollo. He had everything...except a cure for love:
'I am lord of Delphi, Claros, and Tenedos....I am the son of Jupiter (perhaps that was the problem) by my skill, the past , the present, and the future are revealed; thanks to me, the lyre strings thrill with music. The art of medicine is my invention, and men the world over give me the name of healer. All the herbs are known to me: but alas, there are no herbs to cure love, and the skills which help others cannot help its master.'
Pity the poor 'rapist'. But there were many statues of Apollo around Rome.
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"by my skill, the past , the present, and the future are revealed"
Too bad his ability to see into the future didn't warn him of Cupid's arrow heading for him.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/IoDavidTenier%20theElde%20%281582649%29.jpg)
Io by David Teniers the Elder (1582–1649)
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/iomoon.jpg)
Io, one of the 4 main moons of Jupiter. The others are: —Europa, Ganymede and Callisto. All are featured in Ovid.
(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free. Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
For Your Consideration:
“Week” Three: Tales of Gods and Humans, February 9--?
Second and Third Tales: Io, and Pan and Syrinx
1) Bk I:568-587 Inachus mourns for Io
Bk I:587-600 Jupiter’s rape of Io
Bk I:601-621 Jupiter transforms Io to a heifer
Bk I:622-641 Juno claims Io and Argus guards her
Bk I:642-667 Inachus finds Io and grieves for her
Bk I:668-688 Jupiter sends Mercury to kill Argus
2) Bk I:689-721 Mercury tells the story of Syrinx
Bk I:722-746 Io is returned to human form
1. What to you is the saddest thing in the Io story?
2. This story is full of beautiful descriptions. Which lines particularly struck you? Do they interfere with the plot line?
3. What effect do the flashback elements and the interruption of the Pan and Syrinx have on the reader's feelings for Io?
4. What would you say is the tone of the Io story?
5. This is quite a story, it has two metamorphoses and two aetiological myths in it. Which one is the most important?
6. What might Io's struggles to communicate symbolize in our own time?
7. Who actually has the last word in this section?
8. What's your impression of Io's father?
9. If you had to choose between being Io or Daphne, which one would you choose? Why?
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
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Yes, the description of Io as a cow is funny, but if the scene where she's trying to tell her father who she is, and lays a paw on her arm didn't arouse your pity ....
Notice, Ovid also says that Io's father didn't know whether to congratulate or commiserate with Daphne's father.
I'll give Ovid a tentative pass on the misogynist charge: and wait for what comes later. I suspect I know. I remember that view of Jupiter as the "hen pecked" husband who is always getting caught out. And the woman always the one who's punished -- never Jupiter. If this comes from Ovid, I'll take away my pass.
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When I said slapstick, I only meant the interchange between Jupiter and Juno. The description of Io is pathetic--guaranteed to move anyone.
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A thought this morning,well, it's early. I wonder if calling a woman a cow, as a derogotroy reference, was originally inspired by the IO story.
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I've been reading the first of those theses you found, Bellamarie. In addition to the main arguments, which you summarized, there are some minor interesting points. One is that some of the earlier stories are re-shaped and expanded into later stories, so the stories themselves undergo metamorphosis.
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Yes, PatH., I agree Metamorphoses goes through a metamorphosis. I found the theses very enlightening. I do have to admit not ever knowing of them, or reading them before my searches, they did show me I was not alone in my thoughts on this poem and Ovid.
JoanK., Keep in mind the part of being funny is a way the gods enjoyed their own cruel treatments while they were in their onset of pursuing the goddesses who were trying desperately to get away from them. It heightens their sexal arousal. It's a bit like the tormentor enjoys the pain he is inflicting. Like today's modern day story Fifty Shades of Grey. Satire or sadistic? For me, sadistic comes to mind.
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I apologize for interrupting, because this doesn't have anything to do with the discussion at hand, but I wanted to share an amusing thing that came about as a result of our discussion on this thread.
If you cast your minds back to the very beginning, we were discussing the vexed question of the line segment in the third line that was translated as something like "for you changed them, too." The Latin was "Nam vos mutastis et illas."
I was curious as to whether anyone had commented on that line, so I started googling around. It turns out that the British Museum has in its collection a piece of ephemera by that title--an 18th century broadside that has now been made available online. Under "Curator's Comments," it said that the title was bad Latin that evidently was supposed to refer to the well-known tag, "Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis."
Certain that nobody in our group would be willing to let such a serious travesty of scholarship stand, I replied to their corrections link, pointing out that the phrase actually does occur in Ovid, and cited an online Latin edition to back up my assertion. And I am happy to report that just this morning I got an e-mail from the mighty British Museum, assuring me that the correction had been made and will appear on the online version "in due course."
Score one for the SeniorLearn Latin students!
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I am just catching up with the conversation because of caretaker responsibilities.
Re Python I was intrigued by the discussion of snakes as symbols of both good and evil. Had to look up agathos daimon one of the "good spirit" forms of the snake that became an object of veneration in Egypt. Also enjoyed Ginny's explanation of the etymological origins of the Pythean oracle at Delphi.
The metamorphosis of Daphne and the ensuing discussion of rape, Ovid's attitude towards it, and the angry reactions to the story among the group reminded me once again that the major gods, the Dei Consentes, are not only immortal but immoral under the standards of our day. In the days when Ovid wrote of them, I believe, they were seen as amoral not immoral, simply because they were gods. In their interactions with men their amorality was accepted because everyone knew from their life experiences that "under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to the men of skill; but time and chance happen to them all." Ecclesiastes, Ch. 8, v. ll.
The amorality of Ovid's gods is high-lighted by their very human traits of lust, mendacity, braggadocio, deceitfulness, selfishness, jealousy, anger and violence. They are gods made in mankind's image. That does not mean that Ovid endorsed their misconduct.
Ovid's description of them sets up the moral contradiction between the gods' frequently cruel conduct and his sympathetic description of the pain they inflict on their victims. His readers and listeners, both in his time and thereafter, could not help but be moved by that contradiction. Artists like Bernini some 16 centuries later expressed the victims' anguish directly out of Ovid's words, as seen by the wonderful links to Bernini's Apollo and Daphne in the Galleria Borghese. I was stirred by Inachus's words after he had recognized his daughter in bovine form: Unfound you were a lesser grief than regained....And I cannot even end my sorrows with death. It hurts to be a god, for death's door is shut, And my grief extends into eternity.
Of course in some of the stories, as in Io, the god makes right the wrong he (or she) has done. When that happens in the Metamorphoses I am reminded of the Book of Job, wherein a good man is horrendously afflicted simply as a test of faith. A number of Ovid's stories sound the same theme, although the party being tested is not always good, e.g. Lycaon.
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Wow! HOORAY FOR ROXANIA
You should be very proud. SeniorLearn Latin students rock.
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Lots of good points, Howshap. Yes, Io is changed back, and ends up being worshipped as a goddess. And we aren't shedding any tears over Lycaon.
It's funny about the fear of snakes. It's supposed to be one of the most universal of fears (one I don't share). They almost never get a good word, ancient Egypt excepted.
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Inachus' recognition of Io is such a touching scene. Notice that she manages to make herself known even though she can't speak, only moo, by finding another way to make words. The importance and power of communication is a recurring theme in Ovid.
Unfound you were a lesser grief than regained
You gave me my cue there, Howshap. I think I mentioned earlier that in his introduction Martin talks about the difficulty of translating some of Ovid's poetic devices, and that phrase is his example of the Golden Line, in which you have an adjective with its noun at the beginning and end of the line, with the verb in the middle. This is easy to do in Latin, but almost never works in English. Martin cites this as one time when you can make it work. His translation is:
Lost, you were less a grief than you are, found.
Kline says:
There was less sadness with you lost than found.
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Oh My Heavens!!!! WTG Roxania!!!! What a great find and accomplishment. Kudos to you and the SeniorLearn Latin students. "An e-mail from the mighty British Museum", well I am impressed beyond measure.
I am terrified of snakes. I seriously can not even look at a picture of one.
PatH., Yes, I felt so sad when Io was trying desperately to communicate it was she.
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HOORAY INDEED, ROXANIA. YOU ROCK!
HOWSLIP: "I believe, they were seen as amoral not immoral, simply because they were gods. In their interactions with men their amorality was accepted"
yes. everyday life was hard and capricious. No wonder they believed in similar gods. The one thing that gave tthem hope was that they could sacrifice to the gods, and hope that that would work.
No wonder they were scared of sounding too proud, or ignoring the gods.
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Wow. What a joy! Our own Roxania, our own Latin student finds a mistake in the British Museum label!! We're ever so proud of YOU, and the British Museum, too, for admitting it and changing it.
What a joyful day!
And just think, this is something the Books can share, too, because without this bookclub discussion it never would have happened, we don't read Ovid Book I in the classes.
Congratulations, Roxania for your spirit of investigation, knowledge, and dedication to lifelong learning!!
Sure paid off. :)
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Howard, this was beautiful: Ovid's description of them sets up the moral contradiction between the gods' frequently cruel conduct and his sympathetic description of the pain they inflict on their victims. His readers and listeners, both in his time and thereafter, could not help but be moved by that contradiction. Artists like Bernini some 16 centuries later expressed the victims' anguish directly out of Ovid's words, as seen by the wonderful links to Bernini's Apollo and Daphne in the Galleria Borghese. I was stirred by Inachus's words after he had recognized his daughter in bovine form: Unfound you were a lesser grief than regained....And I cannot even end my sorrows with death. It hurts to be a god, for death's door is shut, And my grief extends into eternity. And true, I can't add to it, it's so well said.
This entire section is so innovative and spectacular in Latin and contains many "firsts" in Latin. But this story was not only Ovid's, it was done before, by an earlier Roman poet, Calvus, who built an entire epic around it. But Ovid here does his own thing.
Joan K said , No wonder they were scared of sounding too proud, or ignoring the gods.
That makes a lot of sense. I'm not sure I ever looked at it like that. That is an element of so MANY old cultures. One wonders why. Ovid's work is quite sophisticated in terms of literary metaphor, and one forgets they aren't Just Like Us, like that disgusting magazine always proclaims: "Stars! They're Just Like Us!" (No they aren't.)
And then Pat said, The importance and power of communication is a recurring theme in Ovid.. And about that time I read "If only words would come/ She'd speak her name."
Somewhere I read and of course can't find it, but I will keep looking, that Io here relates to every person who feels their personal identity, for whatever reason, is not perceived accurately by others. They struggle to express themselves but often feel frustrated, perhaps misunderstood, and that Io's situation is a physical embodiment, or symbolism, and overstatement of what many feel in our over stressed and over pressured world: she's trapped in a personna in which she does not recognize herself and feels unable to get out.
I found that really fascinating. The fact that it's sort of humorous, while at the same time pitiful, her having to eat rough grass, she is disappointed with her appearance in the pond, (I feel the same way today without the pond), "and when she tried to complain, she only mooed."
So through her own ingenuity and drive she manages to scratch her name in the sand and what's dad's reaction? He feels sorry for himself.
If you look at it that way, they all take on a different meaning. I'm quite enjoying the trope. I don't know if it will hold but it gives you a different slant on it instead of only seeing those crazy ol heathen Romans, we can see ourselves in disguise and symbol in it today.
And you could extend the metaphor to a lot of other things, too.
But now, what on earth is Argus? Do you have any kind of physical picture of HIM? And why has he been introduced now? I keep reading his description and could not draw him if I had to. His 100 eyes take turns sleeping 2 at a time while the others keep watch. Are these eyes up in a fan like a peacock's tail or are they all over his head, and how big IS that head?
Nobody can say the ancients did not have an imagination.
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We should add on the rest of this section, deal with Argus, and get Io back to human form.
This section can get confusing to modern readers because the characters are called by so many names. Kline has notes to them. Io is called Phoronis once in Kline. Mercury is the son of Pleiad or Pleiades, Jupiter's son, Atlas' grandson. Diana is the Ortygian goddess, Leto's daughter. Juno is Saturn's daughter or Saturnia. Not all the translators do all of these.
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Ginny, I find Argus hard to picture too. Kline says he "had a hundred eyes round his head". Must have been quite a fathead to have room for them all.
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And Leto will shortly be known as Latona in Ovid, the Latona and Niobe story. The ORDER Ovid is putting in these stories might give a causal reader the wrong idea. He's got lovely stories to come. Perhaps once we get thru with this one we can embark on the Palace of the Sun King, (the beginning of Book II) and dazzle our way into a tale with a moral, and nothing to do with love, lust, or any carnal pleasure.
Strange. Perhaps Ovid is pandering to his readers who normally would be eager for naughty doings, having read his TWO books on the subject previously. The entire 15 books contain stories that every English reader should know and his unforgettable way of describing them is magic. Countless artists, sculptors and authors have taken up HIS themes, not simply the themes of ancient mythology. I am glad we are reading this but I agree we do need to get over poor Io and peculiar Argus (why does that name seem familiar?) ..But has Ovid made his point with Io?
What was it?
Personally I thought it was unfair, I think Jupiter is unfair, to have killed Argus, who was just doing what Jupiter asked him to: watching the cow. Jupiter did that....why? To appease Juno? To make a front. But he got caught in his own front? Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we/he practices to deceive? That's all he's doing. It must be exhausting.
And he disliked Io's being watched by this ancient private eye, so he kills him? Whatdid that solve? Poor Argus, doing his job, gone. So now what? Senseless. Jupiter here is senseless.
What else can Ovid do with Jupiter to convince us? Remember he compared Jupiter to Augustus and the pantheon of the Gods to the Palatine and the Roman senate early on in the composition. . Pretty clear, no?
If you watch any of the UCONN film on Ovid, the Introduction to Ovid, you can see how Ovid is making parallels, particularly in the depiction of craftsmen (and women) to the unfair treatment they receive.
Jupiter here if I had to describe him is amoral, and he's also unfair, self centered and vain. I loved I think it's the Introduction to Ovid D in Dr. Travis's film where he compares the other gods in Ovid's Pantheon of the Gods, his high council, to the senate of Rome. Note the decision to flood was supposedly a council matter but it was Jupiter's decision (not theirs, but did they dare to object?) to flood the world. That whole thing describes perfectly the condition of the Senate in Augustus's rule. Augustus is NOT who I think most of us picture, he's something else entirely. There's a reason Classicist Mary Beard calls him "that old reptile" in her new book S.P.Q.R.
So we've been awash in seeing carnal pleasures, and, as Barbara described, power plays, described by Ovid in the BEGINNING of the first book. There are 15 books. What a way to start out a book, by giving his loyal readers more of what they have previously enjoyed to hook them to the greater work. Were they fooled? Are we?
Good thing we live in 2016, huh? Where there is no pornography online or on TV or in any bookstore or in the movies. No "bodice ripping" Romance novels. As Bellamarie said, no Shades of Grey. The people in Ovid's day had it somewhat lame in that department, for purchased reading materials. Good thing we don't have politicians playing god, who are amoral, narcissistic, unfair, prone to making snap decisions or underhanded ones or shady dealing...good thing OUR senate is above all that. No sex-capades to be on the news. NO trips to the Appalachians. No...please. The next time you're in Amsterdam, a city I love, do NOT turn on the TV if there is a child in the room, that's all I can tell you. Where we get Matt Lauer and the CBS eye and NBC Peacock, they get something a lot more startling on almost every channel. No joke. You can't get it OFF the screen and you don't know what you're looking at first. I'm not a gynecologist, thank God.
Good thing WE are so evolved.
What can WE make of Argus? Of why he was killed? Of this story of yet another attempt like that of Apollo and Daphne, of conquering. Again turning into something else. The Pan story is so boring Argus went to sleep. Then why put it in there?
Is Ovid doing anything with these seques? If so, what?
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Be back later today - sorry for being AWOL - worked with a couple I met Monday night at a past client's home and finding them a loan was a huge challenge - have training event this morning and will be back early this afternoon - lots of posts to read and get my head back into Ovid - as Joseph Campbell points out - like all the myth stories, a very patriarchal view of life.
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This section has another myth embedded in it. To get Argus to sleep, Mercury plays his pipes, then starts to tell their story--that of Pan and Syrinx. But Mercury doesn't actually tell the story. Argus falls asleep at once, and the poem says "this is the story Mercury was going to tell", and tells it.
What's the purpose of doing it this way?
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I didn't get that Argus went to sleep before the tale was told. Lombardo says:
So Atlas' grandson sat down and passed the day Line 732
Talking about this and that and playing his reed pipe,
Trying to over come those bright, vigilant eyes,
But Argus fought hard against the languors of sleep.,
And though he allowed some of his eyes to slumber,
He kept some awake. And since the reed pipe, or syrinx,
Was a new invention, he asked where it came from.
Pan and Syrinx
So the god began...this is on line 738... and in the middle of the tale, about line 766, he says
Mercury was poised to tell the whole story
When he saw that all of the eyes had closed.
He stopped speaking and deepened Argus's slumber.
But up until that point, the story was well under way.
People usually make a big thing of how boring it was.
I wonder if the different translations are doing something different? It's amazing what a translator can do to a story.
What do you all have on this? By the way Dr. Travis seems to prefer Melville's translation, do any of you have IT?
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That's what I have--Lombardo and Martin--Mercury gets part of the story told.
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I see Argus as like a tall R2D2, a cylinder, with eyes all around his head, which can swivel 360 degrees. Poor Argus, minions and servants are disposed of easily in these myths; not surprising I suppose in a society run on slave power.
have no idea why the story of the flute is interposed here. It's too similar to the two stories that precede it to have much dramatic affect. My reaction was "please, not again! Placed elsewhere, it might bee different. Please, lets have a break from all this fleeing from rape.
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Do not ask me why, but I saw Argus as like the Octopus in the Little Mermaid. But in actuality this is a pic I found
Mercury killing Argus
(http://www.poetryintranslation.com/pics/Latin/interior_ovid_metamorphoses_mercury_killing_argus.jpg)
Not nearly as scary as I imagined, once Juno places the eyes on the peacock.
And Juno took the hundred eyes of Argus
and set them on her sacred bird: she filled
the feathers of the peacock's tail with jewels
that glittered like the stars.
(https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/elfwood--artwork/9a796bd0-2716-11e4-9ecf-d547aae57bd2/argus-heir.jpg)
JoanK., I am a bit tired of the fleeing of rapes as well.
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We do not get far from rape do we - many women are today attempting to carve out their value and take the rape in Greek and Roman myth as an attack on women - the problem with this approach is we are then turning the discussion into weighing the historical damage of a patriarchal belief system and so we miss the analogies that rape is expressing.
Campbell says, - Rape over and over simply dramatize the will of consciousness, portrayed with male power, imposed on poignant natural frailty. Patriarchal domination gets identified with "love" in the West over and over through repetition and display. The Rape of Europa was one of the most popular classic subjects for Renaissance paintings.
Campbell than goes on to say that, rape in myth did not suggest it was about "love" but it is a masculine pubertal initiation rite... That all the rapes are actually one... that the myth is about the inner self and the role of Eros wanting to connect with others and the divine... Rape in patriarchal myths represents a spiritual quest driven by the need to regain the feminine aspect of self-hood.
His example is, Odysseus, coming from a world that he has rejected and denied the female principle, by trying to dominate it or absorb it into the patriarchal system, and now he is going to have to face the sheer force of this and submit to it.
Today, we object aloud to this domination where women were absorbed into the patriarchal system - however, Ovid did not live when women were either equal or fighting to show they were equal - our generation is conscious of what was but to read and get out of these stories what was intended I think we have to stop trying to force a patriarchal point of view into today's Egalitarian point of view. We will be offended over and over with every rape - or we can realize that in mythology rape is not a statement of "love" or an offense against women but a description of male power and the male initiation into his manhood.
Again, Campbell focused on the association of goddesses with the drive towards union.
“… Where the male come in, you have division, while where the female comes in you have union”
We also have Prof. Harris the Department of Classics in Brooklyn Collage and the Graduate School at CUNY tell us,
...There is no single word in either ancient Greek or Latin with the same semantic field as the modern English word "rape" (viol in French or Vergewaltigung in German).
The Greeks, for instance, used words like u(/brij and a)timi/a and the Romans words like stuprum and vis to refer to acts that we call rape, but each of these words possessed a much wider semantic field than our word "rape."
And many Greek authors may describe what we would call rape as an act of violence, yet do not always call it an act of u(/brij or a)timi/a (e.g. Apollo's rape of Creusa in Euripides' Ion, the rape of a wife at Aristophanes, or the rapes of young women in Menander's plays). True, ancient authors give us some information (not as much as we would like) about acts of rape and ancient attitudes toward sexual violence. But we should not assume they had a concept of rape similar to ours.
And so a difficult choice, we can discuss the value of these stories as examples of bad behavior from the viewpoint of our Egalitarian point of view and miss the message of the stories or we can, as distasteful as it will feel, get the meaning of these stories by putting ourselves in the mindset of a masculine connection with his power.
And I would suggest we could even take it a step further - since these stories are meant to explore our inner selves we have a masculine side just as man have a feminine side that many would prefer to ignore - I wonder are we as guilty preferring not to examine our masculine side.
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Who actually has the last word in this section?
According to my estimation Juno has the final last word, because she chooses to return Io back into a goddess.
Now Io, with the goddess' rage appeased,
regains the form she had before: she sheds
the rough hairs on her body, and her horns
recede; her round eyes shrink, her mouth retracts,
her arms and hands appear again; and each
of Io's hoofs is changed into five nails.
There's no trace of the heifer that is left,
except the lovely whiteness of her flesh.
Content that just two feet now meet her needs,
the nymph stands up but hesitates to speak
for fear that, like a heifer, she will low;
then, timidly, she once again employs
the power of speech she had__for so long__lost.
And now she is a celebrated goddess,
revered by crowds clothed in white linen: Isis.
Jove begged Juno to end Io's punishment:
"You need not fear the future," so he pledged;
"she'll never cause you harm or grief again__"
Why do you suppose Juno decided to not only to end Io's punishment but she turned her into a celebrated goddess, revered by crowds clothed in white linen: Isis? What convinced her? Seems trite that she took Jove's word considering he had lied before and committed adultery.
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I particularly love pencil sketches - do my eyes deceive - it appears to me the trees have in their trunks drawings that remind me of humans and the one in the background as if a crocodile were the bark and the skin continues defining the fields behind - an interesting sketch.
We have many peacocks strutting their plumage, especially in the older part of town where some of the houses sit in a more spacious setting. Most folks have them here because they are great snakers and even take care of any rodents that are looking for a hidy-hoe to birth their spring litter.
Joan just looked it up and will have to re-read now that I've read what a flute symbolizes - anguish - and the extremes of emotion. A flute is also an emblem of Europa and an attribute of the Sirens as both seduction and the emotions. Hmm interesting - need to see how that fits.
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Barb,
We will be offended over and over with every rape - or we can realize that in mythology rape is not a statement of "love" or an offense against women but a description of male power and the male initiation into his manhood.
We discussed this earlier, and I understand it has nothing to do with "love", but for anyone to deduce it down to say it is not an offense against women but a description of male power and male initiation to his manhood for me is ludicrous. Jove is married, he has already come into his manhood, so this proves to not be a supportive argument, in my opinion. And regardless of saying, it is not an offense against women, it is indeed an offense and assault, and Ovid tries to sympathize with the pain and horror the goddess is going through, even though he continuously has the attempts and actual rapes occur. I personally will find no explanation mythological or other that will stop me from being offended by any such heinous act against a goddess or woman.
Barb we are posting at the same time.... :) I would love to have peacocks nearby strutting their stuff!
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bellamarie - my guess is one aspect of the story is showing how when we are in rage we do not have access the our calm dignified self that is as described including the power of speech - it sounds like while in rage we are sounding like a cow lowing - all heavy with emotion.
I know when I am enraged I feel like a wild woman acting outside my self - I could see how a guy would shut you off since he is not going to punch you out as he would if it were a guy.
Two or more guys and one is enraged and there is often a fist fight or a physical attempt to calm the enraged guy where as with a women the guys want to run but know that is not what you do so they mentally shut you out - and for some I bet they do see us as an image of a cow lowing.
I think those secret images is how many a cartoonist creates a skit.
Ha ha peacocks sure make a mess with an annual costly cleaning of roof and fences -
Yes, we have discussed this and this is it - I see you are coming form the Egalitarian viewpoint - and that is a choice that this discussion can turn into the fault of Ovid's story not giving women their dignity - or we can read the stories as written with the Patriarchal viewpoint and realize also that the words used by Ovid did not even mean rape as we know it today. All the stories become analogies to our inner spirit. It may help to have both versions - my only concern is are we missing the message of these stories by rebelling against their patriarchal story-line.
Married only means there is a union of our masculine and feminine side - not a marriage as we know it forever after in front of god and man. The stories were written by Ovid over 2000 years ago with a different set of values and morality and they were to explain the inner self.
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If we are seeing Lo as if the earth - she drinks muddy water in fact a nurturing earth as a cow she lives in and on grass with no human communication, she licks her father's hand, she would give milk as an example of sustenance to mankind - we have miss-used the earth and that miss-use can be seen a rape - and it can also be seen as a creative act as we bury seeds in the earth.
I need to read the entire bit again - now that there is a symbol for the flute I need to look into the reed pipe and how it relates to Lo. If Argus is her protector than what is the benefit of keeping him around unless Lo stays a pristine 'cow' that she then has no benefit - she has to brush up against something or someone and with Argus and his eyes all-around that is not going to happen.
A thought Argus may be her protector but he was sent by Hera - and so Argus is an extension of Hera - her control over Lo - controlling Lo for her husband's shenanigans. OK typical of the Patriarchal thinking - it is the women who entice the men and therefore a woman cannot be angry at the man but must seek revenge against the other women - hmm we saw that played out in the TV series Slander when the wife (forgot her name) blamed Olivia for her husband indiscretion - and only in last night's episode did we see how Olivia was a benefit to the wife and the two become friends supporting the wife writing her book and her run for the office of the president - only here we do not have Lo and Hera becoming friends but we do have Hera blaming Lo for her husbands dalliance with Lo.
And so in order for Lo to travel the world and upon her death become the goddess Isis she has to be free of Argus - and that is arranged by Mercury. Hera also sends the gadfly to chase Lo around the world so that I guess we can say Hera is setting her up to become Isis.
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Wow Roxanne - a couple of days late but what a coup - and to be recognized by the museum - just grand.
Howshap I like this "They are gods made in mankind's image. That does not mean that Ovid endorsed their misconduct." - I think I see them more as an allegory however they do show the images of man or we could not recognize their behavior could we - hmm but then when it comes down to it most folks give the Christian God the attributes and face of a mortal man and so I guess not too different.
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Seems trite that she took Jove's word considering he had lied before and committed adultery.
I'm glad you said that, Bellamarie, because there is a reason why she could believe him.
"Put aside your fear.
In the future this girl will never cause you grief."
And he called as witness the waters of Styx. Lombardo
He swore on the river Styx. This was a truly serious oath, one that not even a god would dare break.
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The first time I heard a peacock I thought somebody was being slaughtered, it is the most awful shriek possible to listen to. They actually had them at Furman at one time. At least they had them initially. They were gorgeous but one never knew if one was listening to a murder, and they disappeared.
Somehow Juno's selecting one as her symbol or bird seems logical. :)
LOVE those illustrations, Bellamarie!
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Lots of great thoughts, Barbara, I do have something to say but it will have to be tomorrow. I came back IN to say that I'm sitting here with Love it or List it on and the Jimmy Dean Sausage people just did another one of their commercials featuring...da daaaa, the Sun God whom we're about to meet.
I mean that's a definite sighting in 2016. ahahaha
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Aha! Thank you so much for this:
PatH., And he called as witness the waters of Styx. Lombardo
He swore on the river Styx. This was a truly serious oath, one that not even a god would dare break.
You are always on your toes!!! I missed this, and now it makes sense.
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Ok reading and re-reading several times – Juno/Hera also called Saturnia because she is the daughter of Saturn is both the sister and the wife of Jupiter.
Jupiter creates fog to hide Lo so he can rape her – so if we use the Campbell, Jupiter is playing out the role of Eros wanting to connect with others and with the divine. As Odysseus, it appears Jupiter is trying to dominate the female principle or absorb it into the patriarchal system.
Then we have Juno/Hera looking into the heart of Argos, a city where there is a temple to her and in this temple is the shield of Euphorbias which was the incarnation of Pythagoras. Pythagoras teaches the doctrine of eternal flux, “You cannot step in the same river twice” He teaches the Four Ages of Man and – get this - he teaches the doctrine of transmigration of souls, metempsychosis.
And so that is where Jupiter, following Pythagoras’ doctrine of metempsychosis turns Lo into a cow. Pythagoras is embodied in the shield of Euphorbias that is inside the temple to his wife and sister Juno/Hera.
Talk about a circle of events.
So, Lo is hidden by Jupiter in the form of a cow/Heifer and when he could not tell Juno/Hera what herd she came from so Juno, as the daughter of Saturn not only approves but, claims the heifer as a gift.
OK here we have our friend Cupid entering the scenario when Jupiter equates Amor over Shame – Amor being another word for Cupid. So if he spilled the beans and said Cupid darted him and he went after Lo than, he would have slighted the gift of the heifer to one of his own, which was his sister and wife Juno/Hera.
OK so, that seems to be saying a gift to your own is much more valuable than your shame of lying since Cupid could overcome the shame of lying, By sharing his shame of lying to the daughter of Saturn, his sister and his wife, would make the gift of the animal, the cow/heifer which was Lo, no gift at all.
So we have Jupiter making a gift to his sister and wife of his exploitation of the female principle, who he used the doctrine of metempsychosis taught by Pythagoras, who was incarnated in the shield of Euphorbias in her temple to turn lo, who he exploited to gain his own female side.
Seems like the entire story is making an offering to the female that is sought by the male principle – the male female union is exemplified in marriage and so Jupiter and Juno/Hero are brother and sister and husband and wife - strong union that is more than a sexual union but the union of male and female - however, the male wants to dominate the female so that outside this union he exploits another female.
I was getting confused and then a thought, I wonder, if what Campbell says fits - he said, males divide and females unite – therefore, Jupiter, as a male god in a patriarchal society, must break out and divide to dominate and Juno comes along and unites.
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Jupiter finally caves - as Kline says it; "Jupiter threw his arms round his wife’s neck and pleaded for an end to vengeance, saying ‘Do not fear, in future she will never be a source of pain’ and he called the Stygian waters to witness his words."
Well Juno/Hera played it cool - covered her vengeance by protecting her 'gift' that she knew was Lo - again, sounds like Olivia in the TV series Scandal. Olivia introduces Berkeley grad, summa cum laude, Jeannine Locke to the press as her loyal friend, sister and daughter who wink, wink, did not have sex with the president, thereby throwing the press off the scent that she, Olivia was the president's long time love affair.
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ah so... Mercury is the son of Jupiter by another wife Maia.
Driving the she-goat is also symbolic - the goat symbolize fertility, vitality and ceaseless energy. The he-goat (buck) is the epitome of masculine virility and creative energy, while the female (doe - she) typifies the feminine and generative power and abundance.
So we have Mercury stealing generative power and abundance symbolized by the she-goat - since in folklore, Pan's unseen presence brought a feeling of panic in men when they passed through remote, lonely places and Ovid says, Mercury is disguised as a shepherd - Pan is often depicted as a shepherd so that entire bit is simply saying the Mercury is disguised as Pan, who driving the feminine, the generative power and abundance to the place where men panic.
Is Argus calling to 'Pan' and his music to sit with him because he feels the female power stolen by Mercury and wants it close as he sits alone on the rocks while staying awake and vigilant, protecting Lo, as a heifer?
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All-seeing Argus, Argus Panoptes, NSA Panoplies?
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My computer keeps changing my typing of Latin words, ruining perfectly good (or bad) jokes:
All-seeing Argus, Argus Panoptes, NSA Panoptes?
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Phaethon.jpg)
The Fall of Phaethon by Sebastiano Ricci, 1703-04, Belluno
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
For Your Consideration:
“Week” Four: Phaethon!
Bk I:747-764 Phaethon’s parentage
Bk I:765-779 Phaethon sets out for the Palace of the Sun
Bk II:1-30 The Palace of the Sun
Bk II:31-48 Phaethon and his father
What Do You Think?
1. Are there any themes which appear in the beginning of the Phaethon story while it's still in Book I which could happen today?
2. Why is Clymene angry?
Let's discuss the end of Book I.
Former Questions, Still up for Grabs:
1. What to you is the saddest thing in the Io story?
2. This story is full of beautiful descriptions. Which lines particularly struck you? Do they interfere with the plot line?
3. What effect do the flashback elements and the interruption of the Pan and Syrinx have on the reader's feelings for Io?
4. What would you say is the tone of the Io story?
5. This is quite a story, it has two metamorphoses and two aetiological myths in it. Which one is the most important?
6. What might Io's struggles to communicate symbolize in our own time?
7. Who actually has the last word in this section?
8. What's your impression of Io's father?
9. If you had to choose between being Io or Daphne, which one would you choose? Why?
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
Thank you, Barbara
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Howshap it appears many of these gods have more than one name - some as I read are simple explanations, the difference is between the Greek name and the Roman name - Like Juno - I could not place her till I read her name as Hera and then it made some sense so my way to handle that was to give both names - it appears Argus is also known as Panoptes and Argus Panoptes -
Another word I've been coming across that I thought I understood and so glad I looked it up is epithet -
A copy of the definitions - "is a byname, or a descriptive term (word or phrase), accompanying or occurring in place of a name and having entered common usage. It can be described as a glorified nickname. It has various shades of meaning when applied to seemingly real or fictitious people, divinities, objects, and binomial nomenclature (formal scientific name or informal the Latin name). It can also be a descriptive title: for example, Alexis I the Quiet or Suleiman the Magnificent."
Argus Panoptes, guardian of the heifer-nymph Io and son of Arestor, was a primordial giant whose epithet, "Panoptes", "all-seeing", led to his being described with multiple, often one hundred, eyes.
The epithet Panoptes, reflecting his mythic role, set by Hera as a very effective watchman of Io, was described in a fragment of a lost poem Aigimios, attributed to Hesiod:
And set a watcher upon her, great and strong
Argus, who with four eyes looks every way. And
the goddess stirred in him unwearying strength:
sleep never fell upon his eyes; but he kept sure
watch always.
Evidently the killing of Argus is the first act of bloodshed among this newer generation of gods. I've also read that from the 5th century onward having a sleepless night, feeling alertness was describes as having "so many eyes that only a few of the eyes would sleep at a time: there were always eyes still awake".
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Howshap, that must be awful when you're typing your homework. Like the joke.
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Some how the joke part is going over my head - help...!
Another tidbit - I did not know - Argus is Lo's brother - ha so that is how we have the patriarchal viewpoint of brothers watching, not only for her protection but, to be sure their sister is not dating the wrong feller or for some even dating at all. Argus I bet set the example.
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a 5th century BC pot now housed in Vienna - Argus or as they label him, Argos Panoptes, with his hundred eyes -
(http://www.theoi.com/image/L11.2ArgosPanoptes.jpg)
| :D ;) the 100 eyes of Argus
(https://41.media.tumblr.com/95ff832a570d7be466accaa9e520a8df/tumblr_o2v1v4FB4m1s7lffto1_500.jpg) |
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Barb,
Olivia introduces Berkeley grad, summa cum laude, Jeannine Locke to the press as her loyal friend, sister and daughter who wink, wink, did not have sex with the president, thereby throwing the press off the scent that she, Olivia was the president's long time love affair.
Not to go too far off topic, I'm wondering if you are catching up on the series Scandal? It was made public Olvia and the President were having an affair and she actually moved into the White House, and before it ended at Christmas break, she had an abortion. They actually showed her having the abortion while playing "Silent Night" as the background music. That is and will be the last time I ever watch that show. Sorry if I gave away spoilers. :P
Okay back to Io.......
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Thanks for heads up - I find the intrigue fascinating - who sides with whom and whose feelings are hurt and how they handle it - some of it I think, oh ya that is what people do and other times I laugh because I've seen that reaction many times and then wonder what kind of twist they are going to arrange so it is not same old, same old -
Since Olivia and the president have not been together for 6 months and she shows no sign of being pregnant, the show you speak of must have been a past episode - now the president's wife Mellie I think is her name is not only writing a book but is planning to run for president along with the woman who is currently vice-president who has a low opinion of herself - I never can remember their names but the characters are so iconic to stories we read out of Washington DC.
To me it is like watching a computer game of little people running up and down various streets at times having a hammer hit them on the head and other times falling into a hole. But more, I am seeing now so many scenarios in various stories are really just up to date examples of the stories of metamorphose brought to us by Ovid. It's fun...
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Is Argus really Io's brother? He is the son of Arestor, and Io is the daughter of Inachus. She is called the Argive, but it is because she is the princess of Argos, the capital of Argolis, the land of which Inachus is the river god.
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In Ovid's Metamorphoses Books 1-5 (Bks 1-5)Jan 15, 1998 by Ovid and William S. Anderson - The bit of the book online says,
Ovid had discovered Io had a brother Phoroneus and it goes on explaining the Greek and Latin words
Looking up Phoroneus we learn... Phoroneus /fəˈrɒnˌjuːs/ (Φορωνεύς) was a culture-hero of the Argolid, fire-bringer, primordial king of Argos and son of the river god Inachus and either Melia, the primordial ash-tree nymph or Argia, the embodiment of the Argolid itself:
The founder of what was to become Argos, the "City of Phoroneus," is Phoroneus himself, son of the river god Inachus, and said to be the first man.
Io was a priestess of the Goddess Hera in Argos, whose cult her father Inachus was supposed to have introduced to Argos. Zeus noticed Io, a mortal woman, and lusted after her. In the version of the myth told in Prometheus Bound she initially rejected Zeus' advances, until her father threw her out of his house on the advice of oracles. According to some stories, Zeus then turned Io into a heifer in order to hide her from his wife; others maintain that Hera herself transformed Io.
Encyclopedia of Ancient Deities: Phoroneus: First King of Argos, Inventor of fire, son of the River God Inachus and the ash nymph Melia and the brother of Aegialeus and Io.
"Inachus, son of Oceanus, begat Phoroneus by his sister Argia," wrote Hyginus, in Fabulae 143.
From the website Greek Mythology: Phoroneus was the primordial king of the city of Argos in Greek mythology, and a hero of the area. He was the son of the river god Inachus, The myth has it that he founded the city of Argos after the flood With either Melia, the ash-tree nymph, or Argia, the personification of the region of Argolid. Phoroneus was the person that gathered the people of the area into a community, and then taught them how to create a fire and how to use the forge.
Phoroneus introduced the worship of Hera -
Inachus is a river god with Melia and Argia birthed Niobe, the first mortal woman who slept with Zeus, gave birth to Argus and Pelasgus. The first succeeded Phoroneus, and the second is reported to have reigned in Argolis, the inhabitants of the Peloponnesus being called Pelasgians after him. Otherwise he is remembered as the king of Argos.
Other sites say that there was an Argus 5 who was the grandson of Phoroneus - however, any grandson or even a son would not be around when Lo was transformed into a heifer nor when Hera was dueling over control with Zeus as Juna and Jupiter.
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I keep looking and cannot find the story of the 100 eyes using the name of Phoroneus - evidently that is supposed to be in Ovid's handbook - Pat, do you know anything about Ovid's Handbook?
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Barb,
To me it is like watching a computer game of little people running up and down various streets at times having a hammer hit them on the head and other times falling into a hole. But more, I am seeing now so many scenarios in various stories are really just up to date examples of the stories of metamorphose brought to us by Ovid. It's fun...
OMG I almost spit my tea out reading this, laughing so hard. Like I said in an earlier post....some things never change. Just different century, different names, different characters.
Good job keeping up with who is who in the mythological genealogy. It reminds me of the Bible, so and so begat so and so, and they begat........ etc., etc.
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Just saw on TV that Harper Lee has died in her sleep, at the age of 89. R.I.P. To a marvelous author who's book To Kill A Mockingbird will live on forever.
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What a fascinating discussion!
On the nature of Argus I found this in the OCCL:
1.In Greek myth the herdsman that Hera set to watch Io, given the epithet Panoptes because he had eyes all over his body. [The name now makes perfect sense if the eyes are all over his body]. When Hermes killed him, Hera placed his eye on the peacock's tail.
2. The craftsman who built the ship Argo
3. In Homer's Odyssey, the dog which recognizes his owner Odysseus on his return and then dies.
:) Howard, how aptly named. So the eyes are all over the body not just the head. Loved that R2D2 Joan K! LOVE those illustrations, Barbara, you can SEE the eyes all over the body, loved the steps.
In looking up Phaethon's mother the other day I found almost a million myths on her alone, there are 8 by that name and the one I wanted had as many as 4 iterations. She was mother, depending on who you read, of half the world.
The issue is the different people sharing the same myth throughout time and you know yourself you can't tell one person in a line a fact without it being completely changed by the others in the line and we're talking thousands of years of line. It's a miracle there is any coherent story.
Ovid's part, however, is adding the illumination of human feelings to these Stock Mythic Characters.
Doesn't that show us, tho, I just realized, that it's our own take on it and bringing it into our own understanding that makes the myth live on. If we did not do that for our own culture, then the myth would die. The modern myth, that is.
And in reading last night Shakespeare and the Uses of Antiquity: An Introductory Essay by Michelle Martindale, I found this statement:
All plays about historical events deal both with the past and with the present. Anachronism is thus, in one form or another, the necessary condition of their being. Not even the most learned historian could avoid it, because the past is only partly knowable, because we cannot wholly detach ourselves from our own time, and because any presentation of the past in contemporary language will involve accommodations.
I really dislike google books. All that happens now when you want to see a particular quote is google books comes up, you can't do much with it, but I just noticed last night a little "share" type of thing and what you CAN do, and what I see some of you knew long before I did, is that you can then "share" that quote in email or drop box or whatever to others. And that might be good advertising. Not sure what that does to copyright laws.
It's quite handy, isn't it? I emailed myself that quote because I think it's important, and thought you might also like to see it.
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Interesting Ginny the Michelle Martindale quote about Historical Plays - saying we are of our times and the past is not knowable - A good review of seeing the value in History which had me wonder than about the use and value of myth. Of course googled just that and came up with pages of links offering explanations.
These two really caught my eye - some like Britannica were so short and said without explanation similar to how other sites shared - almost a definition of myth without going into the use and value and how we express who we are using myth. These two sites I found easy to read without sounding like an address to a symposium of scholars teaching and studying mythology -
This first defines for us the difference between Myth, Fable, Folk Lore and Legend and goes into the importance of Myth
http://mythsdreamssymbols.com/importanceofmyth.html
This page in David K. Abraham's website really hits the mark with questions like: "A myth is a story that has significance to a culture (or species), a story that addresses fundamental and difficult questions that human beings ask: who and what am I, where did I come from, why am I here, how should I live, what is the right thing to do, what is the universe, how did it all begin?"
http://www.davidkabraham.com/OldWeb/Beliefs/Education/mythology.htm
After reading several of these sites with the question in mind of what is the use and value of Myth I started to question the American myth - there is Casey at the Bat - win or lose it is how we play the game and there are three chances not one - and then from the giant who we fear but cradles a women, King Kong. The story shows the magnitude of human greatness and today, the racial aspect of the movie is examined showing the abduction of Blacks. Both views are within our American culture.
Then we cannot help but see various characters who started out as comic book heroes and are now mainstream examples of the American belief in itself - Superman, Captain America, Spider Man to Charlie Brown and the Cowboy myths - lots of historical myths that would fall into the Michelle Martindale explanation of past and present and how we do not leave behind our own times. That would sure fit the more recent discussions about King Kong.
What I see is we can judge something good or bad or, we can see a myth requiring we remove our judging nature or else, we are saying our reading a myth is to sort the worthy from what we condemn while missing the valuable.
I'm thinking of King Kong - I saw the movie back before WWII - yep, scared me but then to many of us who were feeling the affects of the Great Depression - history may say the depression was over in the late 30s but the families I knew were not prospering so that this monster gorilla that broke out of its chains was depicted as being gentle with a frightened young attractive woman while hysterical men tried to fly by and shoot this animal like monster that was so big it could swipe planes out of the sky. It, like many movies of the time seemed to show us we did not have to be afraid of the monsters. Where as today seeing that same movie and with our focus on race relations another aspect of the story is featured.
I am thinking while writing - questioning - the stories of Ovid in many ways are so off the wall with as Joan said earlier - one rape after another - and yet, the coupling of these folks is so beyond anything we can imagine happening today, we would see the whole lot of them locked up -
To get anything out of all this, some folks have spent their working lives studying these ancient myths and because they are not historical happenings and as Ginny says, there are so many versions of these stories there is little fat checking. The idea seems appropriate of turning to these professionals who have spent years deciphering therefore, are better equipped to give us a que and thus a clue to what is meant by the behavior that today has a different shade of meaning.
Ginny I do not remember the dog in the return of Odysseus - was the dog named Argo or Argus?
I am still having fun with the 1000 eye aspect of the story - I wonder if only half the eyes sleep if that is behind the wink wink smile smile story of Moms having eyes on the back of her head or Moms see even in the dark or even that our Christian God sees all.
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That's a super point about King Kong, Barbara. All these Zombie things, they are myths, too, and they are everywhere. What do they symbolize, one wonders? Fear of not being able to deal with the world we live in? All the Japanese destruction movies and monsters like Godzilla. Voldemort, Star Trek, Star Wars, I bet we could name a million of them. I really love Japanese destruction movies.
Odysseus's dog was named Argus, sorry, I thought I put that and I see I didn't.
There are 250 myths in the Metamorphoses, they don't all begin with a rape or a chase or anything like that. Although I still am wondering why all these do at the first. I have a feeling it's what he thought his audience might have expected.
We may be somewhat ready to move on and see the next one, Phaethon, soon.
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Good: I want to see what he does with Phaeton.
Last thought on peacocks: I wonder what they looked like 2000 years ago, when Ovid wrote. They are an example of evolution gone mad: their tails have gotten so big and unwieldy that they can no longer survive in the wild.
there is a suburban neighborhood a few miles from me where wild peacocks live. Stories vary, but apparently they originally escaped from a millionaire estate. Now they are protected: if one of them is perched on your car, or crossing the street in front of you, you just have to wait for it to move. In breeding season, they make loud raucous cries all night long. A resident told me they get no sleep.
http://www.odditycentral.com/travel/california-town-is-home-to-hundreds-of-free-roaming-wild-peacocks.html
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That is interesting to read the peacock is protected. The mallard duck is also protected, and every year it seems my inground pool has been a favorite place for mating, and then the mother duck lays her eggs usually in my neighbor's bushes. We had a real ordeal last year, trying to protect her 13 eggs because some predator would chase her off her nest at night and then take her eggs. Nature's Nursery told us to not touch the eggs. None of them survived. Sad.
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I knew Egypt was a much earlier civilization than the Greeks but did not realize how early - it appears the Hieroglyphics were from 3,300 BC where as the Islands of Crete had a population as of 2,011.
In Egypt Isis was worshiped as the ideal wife and mother from the time of the old Kingdom sometime between 2686 BC and 2181 and achieved the status of supreme importance 1550–1070 BC -
Where as the cult worship in the Roman Egyptian Temple to Isis originated in the first century BC. The first enclosed roofed temple sanctuary by the Greeks dedicated to Hera, who is the cause of the Io story and who, according to Ovid became Isis, was built in 800BC.
These dates suggest to me Ovid was doing a little revisionism on history either, attempting to show Roman and Greek presence as more glorious or, out of ignorance to the actual age difference between Egyptian culture and Mediterranean/Aegean Culture.
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It looks like it's time to move on to the next story: Phaethon. Let's start by talking about the first bit:
Bk I:747-764 Phaethon’s parentage
Bk I:765-779 Phaethon sets out for the Palace of the Sun
Bk II:1-30 The Palace of the Sun
Bk II:31-48 Phaethon and his father
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The Bronze Age in Greece, the legends of Minos and the Labyrinth, Theseus and Daedalus and Icarus, the palace of Knossos (still standing in ruins in Crete) and culture of the Minoans date from 3000 BC- 1000 BC.
Founded: The first settlement dates to about 7000 BC. The first palace dates to 1900 BC.
Abandoned: At some time in Late Minoan IIIC, 1380–1100 BC
Periods: Neolithic to Late Bronze Age. The first palace was built in the Middle Minoan IA period.
Cultures: Minoan, Mycenaean
Associated with: In the Middle Minoan, people of unknown ethnicity termed Minoans; in the Late Minoan, by Mycenaean Greeks
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Phaethon.jpg)
Wonderful idea, Pat! Yes, let's keep intact our thoughts on the somewhat strangled opening bits of Pan and Syrinx, another chase and capture, on Daphne and Apollo and poor Io and step out of the "winter of our discontent" into the glorious dazzling summer of Phaethon, and the Sun god. (Phaethon is pronounced Fay a ton).
THIS is what we came for, what Ovid is most famous for, the glorious descriptions and word pictures, and what a bobby dazzler it IS!
What modern applications, what themes present in 2016 can we see in the opening lines in Book I of the Phaethon story? Right off the bat I can think of a commercial running daily about car keys. Dad, can I borrow the car? And the person asking Dad, to his eyes, appears a child. Something any parent can relate to. But how are Phaethon's car keys different?
What about wanting to know who your parents are? Is this important today? And what about the little bit of duplicity Phaethon does with his mom?
Parents and children. Car keys...what else do we see in this story while it's still in Book I?
Oh boy, some of the most glorious writing in the universe, lots of plot twists, lots of identifiable emotions (and NO rapes hahaha) and we're off, let's look at the end of Book I!
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Once again Ovid manages to intermingle the end of the old story with the beginning of the new. Io's son Epaphus teases Phaethon about his parentage, and that sets off the series of events that make up this story.
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thanks for the dates Ginny - are you also than saying that the story of Io is from the Bronze Age - All I could find about the combo Greek and Egyptian was in the first century - Was there a time earlier when the two cultures mixed so that the idea of Io becoming Isis could be an older story? I know there may have been other versions as you said -
I thought the early contact between Greece and Egypt was developed because of the exploits of Alexander the Great - I do remember that Rome had their footprint in northern Africa during the time of Augustus but when that contact first blossomed I can only guess was because of the island of Crete being closer and I thought the culture in Crete with wall paintings of women and bulls earlier than Greek Culture - Did Crete also have the stories of Zeus and Hera? I bet you have a good book or web site that you could suggest that would help put all this is perspective - please share.
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I've seen this illustration many times and did not know that it was on this container held in the British Museum
(https://lightnightgreekfire.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/helios.jpg?w=1000&h=764)
And more did not know what Attic red-figure calyx-krater was -
The red-figure technique appeared in Attica in around 530 BC and sounded the death knell of the black-figure technique.
The first ten years were a period of exploration. Then, around the 520s, a group of unique painters known as the "Pioneers" emerged. It included Phintias, Euthymides, and in particular Euphronios. Eclectic, curious, and innovative, they worked with potters like Cachrylion and Euxitheos to form a group of imaginative and audacious precursors who shared their discoveries. Liberated from the rigid frameworks of their predecessors, they filled the space of the vase by painting bodies in more natural postures, giving them volume and introducing foreshortening to create a kind of perspective. The musculature is rendered in precise anatomical detail, thanks to the use of a diluted glaze in light brown tones. The same naturalism characterizes the treatment of the folds of the fabrics. They also invented new vase forms, like the stamnos, the pelike, and the amphora with twisted handles.
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Isn't it ironic how today, we have Jerry Springer and Maury Povich shows who have the mother, son, and possible baby daddy on the show trying to determine if the child is really the son of so and so.......and look at this story of Phaethon questioning his mother Clymene about his lineage, after being ridiculed by Epaphus.
Her son was Epaphus, and it's believed
that she gave birth to him from great Jove's seed;(obviously it was through the rape before turned into a cow)
he shares his mother's shrines in many cities.
The peer of Epaphus in temperament
and age was Phoebus' son, young Phaethon.
Once, Phaethon__so proud to have the Sun
as father__claimed that he was better born
than Epaphus, who met that claim with scorn:
"Fool, do you think that all your mother says
is true__those lying tales that swelled your head?"
And Phaethon blushed: ashamed, the boy was forced
to check his scorn, he hurried off at once
to tell Clymene of that calumny:
"And, mother, what will cause you still more pain,
is this: I, who am frank, so prone to pride,
was tongue-tied. I am mortified__ashamed
that I could be insulted in this way__
yet not rebut the charge! So, if in truth
my lineage is heavenly, provide
the proof of my high birth, and justify
my claim to have a father in the sky!"
Ginny, Oh boy, some of the most glorious writing in the universe, lots of plot twists, lots of identifiable emotions (and NO rapes hahaha) and we're off, let's look at the end of Book I!
There may be no more rape, but now we deal with certainly the repercussions of the rape, since it does seem poor Epaphus has been ridiculed by Phaethon. Is Ovid showing us he thinks less of Epaphus because he knows Epaphus was conceived out of Jove raping his mother Io? Then you have Epaphus insulting Phaethon, making Phaethon doubt his own lineage, and mother's word. I find this ending quite sad.
Phaethon goes to his mother Clymene and she swears it is true, but she tells him to go ask his father Apollo for the proof he needs.
It reminds me of the Springer/Povich show having to reveal the DNA tests at the end of the show. Ughh.... then and now.... Who's yo Daddy?
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Ginny, I think some of your post is revealing parts of Book ll with the chariot/ car keys. Are we planning to go beyond Book l?
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I absolutely love those red figure and black figure kraters and they are absolutely fascinating, thank you for finding, that, Barbara. The British Museum has some wonderful sections online on them with some of the most spectacular examples imaginable. Here's one from the Met: Department of Greek and Roman Art. “Athenian Vase Painting: Black- and Red-Figure Techniques.” In Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History. New York: The Metropolitan Museum of Art, 2000–. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/vase/hd_vase.htm If you click on the number on the bottom right of the top illustration you'll see MANY fabulous pieces.
Barbara, no, sorry not to be clear, I was not attempting to date Io, that story but rather to show the age of the myths in that area.
For instance, for succinctness I like the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature. They say on this topic, which I think kind of ties in your Greek and Egyptian ideas:
"Crete: a Mediterranean island to the south east of Greece and the south west of Asia Minor. Its position makes it a natural stepping stone from Europe to Egypt, Cyprus and Asia. Holding themselves an intermediate position in early times, between the ancient civilization of the near and Middle East and barbarian /Europe, it was well suited to become the site of the earliest European high civilization."
1. Minoan civilization: This was the name given by
Si Arthur Evans to the Bronze Age culture in Crete (c.3000-1000 B.C.00
2. The beginning of the Early Minoan period (c.3000-2200 B.C.) which succeeded a long Neolithic Age marked by a striking new style of pottery, indicating the arrival of a new (and non Greek) people from western Asia, from Anatolia perhaps, or a Semitic people from Syria or Palestine. The end of this period marked the start of the great period of Minoan civilization (c.2200-1450 B.C.)...Here is where we find Linear A)....this culture (I am abbreviating a huge bit of stuff) gradually pervaded the Aegean area, especially the Greek mainland. However Knossos and other Cretan sites suffered further destruction in 1500 B.C., in consequence it has been thought of the great volcanic explosion of Thera."
"Knossos seems to have restored her former prosperity in 1450-1400 B.C. and a new influence became evident in pottery and writing (Linear B was found at this level) which is also known from several sites on the Greek mainland."
"The language of Linear B has been identified as an earlier form of Greek, different from the language of the earlier scripts, and probably indicating that the rulers were by this time Mycenaean Greeks from the mainland...."
As far as Greek religion goes we recall that Homer and Hesiod were considered the fathers of Greek religion about 800 B.C. but only because they wrote it down. The tradition up to that time was the oral tradition so in fact those myths may have been centuries maybe thousands of years old.
In the section on Greek religion it talks about Crete, the bulls, and the myths which suggest some kind of bull cult. "There are representations, (remember the conditions of the ruins), of numerous goddesses, possibly variants on one Mother or Cybele type goddess, many female goddesses. Linear B has revealed on mainland Greece the names of many gods we are familiar with, which indicate a polytheistic system. The Linear B tablets include Zeus, Poseidon, Enyalios, Hera, Ares (Mars) or Hermes, and Dionysus, and many more.
"Correspondences with later Greek religion exist side by side with deities and practices otherwise unknown, clearly the religion of the Classical period was rooted in that of the Minoan-Mycenaean age, but with important differences."
It's a big subject, and my typing is not up to it, and your know yourself it makes a lot more sense when you can read it yourself. I think if you read The Oxford Companion to Classical Literature you would get a lot out of it because it sorts it all out succinctly, tho this is a huge section, and taken up again under Greek religion. At least if you read it you know what is thought to be currently accurate.
But there are tons of good books on this subject.
---The Bull of Minos: The Great Discoveries of Ancient Greece by Leonard Cottrell.
---- The Palace of Minos: A Comparative Account of the Successive Stages of the Early Cretan Civilization as Illustrated by the Discoveries at Knossos by Arthur Evans
---A. Brown, Arthur Evans and the Palace of Minos (Oxford 1983)
----J.K. Papadopoulos, “Inventing the Minoans: Archaeology, Modernity & the Quest
for European Identity,” Journal of Mediterranean Archaeology 18, 2005, 87-149
Greek Mythology: Discovering Greek Mythology (Ancient Greece, Titans, Gods, Zeus, Hercules) by Martin R. Phillips and on Kindle for 99 cents.(April 11, 2014)
----The Oxford Companion to Classical Literature
--Schliemann's Discoveries of the Ancient World by Carl Schuchhardt and Eugenie Sellers
Schliemann, who discovered Troy, is now much discredited but the man who announced to the world "I have looked upon the face of Agamemnon" is worth a read. I guess his is a cautionary tale about the dangers of an enthusiast in the world of archaeology.
---From the Land of the Labyrinth: Minoan Crete, 3000-1100 BC
by Giorgos Rethemiotakis and Nota Dimopoulou-Rethemiotaki
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Grand - just Grand - thanks Ginny - I get so curious about things that I read and ancient history especially Egyptian history never grabbed me - the pictures of their gods and goddesses turned me off - all the Tut stiff that was the hottest ticket in town a few years ago just bored me and I never got caught in the whirl - to tie it into Greek and Roman ancient history fills me with all sorts of questions. Thanks for the book list, now I have some stepping stones.
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I'm glad those seem to be interesting. I think Oxford has another one I have long wanted, The Oxford History of Greece & the Hellenistic World by John Boardman, and another one of the Roman world. They have been extremely expensive but these aren't.
Surely these can't be the same books; the ones I'm thinking of are about as expensive as a trip. :)
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What a job you have done, GINNY to summarize so much for us. I'm truly in awe of how old and long-lasting some of these stories and ideas are. Not only the 2000 years between Ovid and us, but so many years before! will anything of our 21st century culture survive that long.
No wonder these stories sometimes seem strange. Yet, there is a reason they continue to be repeated. My grandchildren are reading the current modern version of these stories (minus the rapes, I hope) and are just as fascinated by them as I was as a child.
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If there's a child you want to get hooked on the Greek myths, I recommend d'Aulaire's Book of Greek Myths, by Ingri d'Aulaire and Edgar Parin d'Aulaire. It's a good job of retelling the stories, with wonderful illustrations.
http://www.amazon.com/DAulaires-Greek-Myths-Ingri-dAulaire/dp/0440406943#reader_0440406943 (http://www.amazon.com/DAulaires-Greek-Myths-Ingri-dAulaire/dp/0440406943#reader_0440406943)
The cover will be recognizable, and if you scroll down in Amazon's sample, you'll find some of the story of Io. (They say Hermes/Mercury bored Argus to sleep and death with his story.)
Amazon says ages 10 and up, but I think my children were younger when they read it.
They have an equally good book of Norse myths.
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Bellamarie, I am sorry I missed your posts, you must have posted while I was trying to type all that, not a good typist.
Poor Epaphus?
Isn't Epaphus the tormentor picking at Phaethon about his parentage? To the point that Phaethon turns red?
Epaphus to me, (and I could be nuts) is the epitome of the school bully. 2000 years ago or not.
There was no rape with Clymene and Apollo and although married to another man she seemed to have several children by other men, the myths vary.
I have never watched those programs but I do know that many adopted children into perfectly normal homes would like to know who their birth parents are and they often spend a lot of time trying to find out. In a way, isn't that what Genealogy is? Wanting to find out your true roots?
The country singer married to Faith Hill, is it Tim McGraw found out his own father was Tug McGraw, the baseball player, I think this story is more for our time than we may want to realize.
I hope we're going to read Phaethon's story and maybe go on a bit to the good stuff? There are some wonderful stories we encounter every day, Narcissus, Midas, we could vote on them, there are some moving majestic descriptions. I hope we can all go on a little bit?
Some of these myths in the Middle Ages were used to teach theology, believe it or not.
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Whose translation is that, Bellamarie? Some of the things said there are not in my copy of Ovid?
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Thank you, Joan! :)
Pat, yes that's a great book. Does anybody remember the book for children on Archaeology which has turned out a lot of archaeologists? I can't recall the name, it's an old book.
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Wow hate to keep coming back to this subject but happened upon a site from a facebook friend and all of a sudden a new light-
I am thinking that having the male rape a women is showing the women to be virtuous - that regardless her conniving, manipulating, hiding secrets, feeling anger or revenge if she was raped she was virtuous to the socially approved place held by women.
We know women had no direct power except in the weaving room and maybe in the kitchen - there were temples to women goddesses in which young women perform rituals and dance and these women are often virgins. But as a gender they were simply something for the male to pursue - we know this because of female genital mutilation that prevents her from having any sexual feelings.
Wives were not meant to satisfy the sexual titillation of the male but only to bear children - we know Pederasty in ancient Greece was a socially acknowledged erotic relationship between an adult male and a younger male usually in his teens. We read in the Kite Runner, in Afghanistan young boys are still the means for sexual satisfaction rather than wives. These practices are ancient.
Here is the rundown on the early history of female genital mutilation.
While the term infibulation has its roots in ancient Rome, where female slaves had fibulae (broochs) pierced through their labia to prevent them from getting pregnant, a widespread assumption places the origins of female genital cutting in pharaonic Egypt. This would be supported by the contemporary term "pharaonic circumcision."
"This was not common practice in ancient Egypt. There is no physical evidence in mummies, neither there is anything in the art or literature. It probably originated in sub-saharan Africa, and was adopted here later on," Salima Ikram, professor of Egyptology at the American University in Cairo.
Historically, the first mention of male and female circumcision appears in the writings by the Greek geographer Strabo, who visited Egypt around 25 B.C.
Female genital cutting (FGC), also known as female circumcision or female genital mutilation, is an ancient practice that predates the Abrahamic religions.
"One of the customs most zealously observed among the Egyptians is this, that they rear every child that is born, and circumcise the males, and excise the females," Strabo wrote in his 17-volume work Geographica.
A Greek papyrus dated 163 B.C. mentioned the operation being performed on girls in Memphis, Egypt, at the age when they received their dowries, supporting theories that FGM originated as a form of initiation of young women.
This practice was before Ovid - how early the practice we do not know - we do know that reading the Odyssey, his wife had no power outside her home - and even some of the goddesses have less power than the gods - most of ancient civilizations were patriarchal and would have no clue that their attitude towards women was anything but correct. These myths may have shown women how they were supposed to behave.
We also know that men and women did not marry for love - Plato believed love was a wonderful emotion that led men to behave honorably. But the Greek philosopher was referring not to the love of women, "such as the meaner men feel," but to the love of one man for another.
In her book The History of Marriage, Stephanie Coontz writes;
"The Greeks thought lovesickness was a type of insanity, a view that was adopted by medieval commentators in Europe. In the Middle Ages the French defined love as a "derangement of the mind" that could be cured by sexual intercourse, either with the loved one or with a different partner... In Europe, during the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, adultery became idealized as the highest form of love among the aristocracy.
According to the Countess of Champagne, it was impossible for true love to "exert its powers between two people who are married to each other... for centuries, noblemen and kings fell in love with courtesans rather than the wives they married for political reasons... This sharp distinction between love and marriage was common among the lower and middle classes as well. Many of the songs and stories popular among peasants in medieval Europe mocked married love.
About two centuries ago Western Europe and North America developed a whole set of new values about the way to organize marriage and sexuality, and many of these values are now spreading across the globe."
The color white has been symbolic for purity and when Io is returned she is dressed in White.
I am thinking that for the continuation of humans given the social mores where women were removed from the desire of sex it would be a man who called the shots even during lovemaking much less the chase. And so it would all be as a rape.
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Ginny,
There was no rape with Clymene and Apollo and although married to another man she seemed to have several children by other men, the myths vary.
Ginny, you may have misunderstood my post. I was wondering if Ovid was indicating that Epaphus was a lesser born, because he was conceived from Jove raping Io. Why else would Ovid have Phaethon make the snide remark to Epaphus?
Ginny, Epaphus to me, (and I could be nuts) is the epitome of the school bully. 2000 years ago or not.
What seems to have started the entire tit for tat with these two, was when Phaethon said to Epaphus:
Once, Phaethon__so proud to have the Sun
as father__claimed that he was better born
than Epaphus, who met that claim with scorn:
So in actuality it was Phaethon who initiated the cruelty, and then Epaphus turned around and made Phaethon doubt his lineage. I didn't see Epaphus as a bully, he was in fact insulted my Phaethon, and in turn insulted him back.
I don't watch Springer or Povich either, but I do know their main purpose is "Who's Yo Daddy." Dr. Phil, which I do watch does not have the fighting and insanity on his show, but he does do paternity tests to reveal the identity of parentage.
Of course everyone should and would want to know their genealogy, my point was as far back as Ovid's poem, to now, you have children questioning their own father, being lied to, and insulted by another child.
Barb, We were posting at the same time....I am thinking that having the male rape a women is showing the women to be virtuous - that regardless her conniving, manipulating, hiding secrets, feeling anger or revenge if she was raped she was virtuous to the socially approved place held by women.
I will have to agree to disagree with you. Ovid shows the reader the horrible feeling she is feeling while she is fleeing from the rapist, and he goes to the extreme to have the goddess transformed to prevent her from the rape. If it were virtuous, there would be no need for this. It is seen as a wrongful act, or Jove would not have tried to hide it from his wife. It is adultery, not his right as a male. It would take a stronger argument, and stretch of the imagination for me to be convinced otherwise. Ovid would not have to use the word, "rape" if it were anything other than that.
By the mere definition of rape, it is against a person's consent.: Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration perpetrated against a person without that person's consent.
In this and many other articles you will find the same findings and results to Ovid's books throughout the centuries:
Even the Metamorphoses, his most famous work, which details the transformations of various mythical figures for a variety of reasons, contains many erotic events including rape and various forms of forbidden love that have been considered immoral. Ultimately, the risqué nature of Ovid’s works has led to great controversy over a lengthy period, and Ars Amatoria may have the longest history of censorship of any book from its initial banning by Augustus to its interdiction in modern America.
http://web.colby.edu/ovid-censorship/censorship/history-of-ovids-banned-books-from-antiquity-to-present/
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On the fibula business, the Rogue Classicist has asked for citation in ancient texts to prove this? Nobody has answered in 4 years but it sure has taken over the internet.
What is the source of this rumor, Barbara, if you don't mind asking the person who is perpetuating it?
The Rogue Classicist asks:
"While the term infibulation has its roots in ancient Rome,..."
"Do we have an ancient source that mentions this? Or is this another case of a Latin word leading someone, somewhere to infer that the practice must have been Roman?"
The source will need to be in an ancient document.
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Bellamarie, may I ask again what translation you are quoting? I don't see that in the Latin, that's why I ask. I can't find Lombardo.
Why else would Ovid have Phaethon make the snide remark to Epaphus? I don't know that he made that remark. The translator's name might help.
Children are not adults, especially in the school yard when being taunted....if Phaethon were angry at Epaphus's taunts, he might have said all kinds of things. Worse things.
to now, you have children questioning their own father, being lied to, and insulted by another child.
I don't see Phaethon questioning his own father, where do you see this? He wants proof the sun god is his father, what's wrong with that? He's questioning his mother, give me a sign. He goes and ASKS the sun god, she tells him where he can find him, to give him a sign.
I think whoever you are reading may not be accurate. But of course my Lombardo has disappeared so I would like to see what others say on this.
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As I have said there is the current views on life and trying to decipher the ancient views - I understand Bellamarie you are more comfortable with the current definition of rape and that is fine - I am still exploring and learning what the ancient view could be based upon that we miss today - there is NEVER in Senior Learn the need for agreement - exploring is Paramount for me rather than labeling anything right or wrong - it all happens - and to better understand what I am reading that is of an ancient time with morals based on a different understanding of the universe and human nature is an exploration that seems worthy to me...
There are many who are mostly newer graduates who have lived when women have gained the right to assert themselves openly, that have analyzed these stories eking out, some we learn without a good understanding of the ancient Greek language, a version that includes our idea of defining rape -
I see them as similar to those who now prefer to put attention on another aspect of the King Kong stories because today race relations is being explored - that does not make the early take out of the King Kong story wanting - the story did not change - but the movie showing the story back before WWII was of a different time with different fears and different race relations - the same with these myths -
And so to me the ideas of today about rape are old hat - we all know them and we all know rape to be described differently than was the definition used by the Greeks - We know today rape is called out as a serious crime and for those of us who have been raped we are dealing with the modern view of what happened - However, these stories could not be high on the list of classics to be studied if they were simply about today's explanation of rape - there has to be something more or they would be buried as Aunt Jemima's Pancake Ad and Black Face costume for whites rather than being studied in Universities.
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Ginny give me a bit I have to research my history of sites visited and find again the information.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Phaethon.jpg)
The Fall of Phaethon by Sebastiano Ricci, 1703-04, Belluno
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
For Your Consideration:
“Week” Four: Phaethon!
Bk I:747-764 Phaethon’s parentage
Bk I:765-779 Phaethon sets out for the Palace of the Sun
Bk II:1-30 The Palace of the Sun
Bk II:31-48 Phaethon and his father
What Do You Think?
1. Are there any themes which appear in the beginning of the Phaethon story while it's still in Book I which could happen today?
2. Why is Clymene angry?
Let's discuss the end of Book I.
Former Questions, Still up for Grabs:
1. What to you is the saddest thing in the Io story?
2. This story is full of beautiful descriptions. Which lines particularly struck you? Do they interfere with the plot line?
3. What effect do the flashback elements and the interruption of the Pan and Syrinx have on the reader's feelings for Io?
4. What would you say is the tone of the Io story?
5. This is quite a story, it has two metamorphoses and two aetiological myths in it. Which one is the most important?
6. What might Io's struggles to communicate symbolize in our own time?
7. Who actually has the last word in this section?
8. What's your impression of Io's father?
9. If you had to choose between being Io or Daphne, which one would you choose? Why?
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
Thank you, Barbara
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Homosexuality_%28book%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece
http://www.jrdkirk.com/2015/04/15/pederasty-in-rome/
the introduction is included as a free read on Amazon to the book mentioned
http://www.jrdkirk.com/2015/04/15/pederasty-in-rome/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2582648/
http://news.discovery.com/human/female-genital-mutilation-begin-121210.htm
http://www.global-alliance-fgm.org/en-gb/portal/aboutfgm/historicalnote.aspx
https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/sudan/clitoridectomy-and-infibulation
http://www.fgmnationalgroup.org/historical_and_cultural.htm
There were other sites but since I often go from site to site by clicking a link they do not show up in my history.
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Barbara I am sorry I was not clear. Thank you for all that work. I read the first one which has no mention of the charges made here about the "Roman practice of infibulation," which is what I question. I then read the site which did originate it and they say absolutely nothing about citing any ancient source.
What I failed to clearly ask for was the citation of the ancient source from which this "infibulation practice of the Romans" rumor started.
It's fashionable today to trace anything back to "the Romans," because we live in an age where people know next to nothing about classics.
If the "Romans did it" there has to be an ancient proof, and how easy it would be to say Cicero said, or Seneca wrote about this or some other ancient proof. There is none.
I think it's a hoax. None of the sites say anything beyond "the Romans did this disgusting practice." And it's picked up and spread like wildfire.
Saying it with no proof is not enough when you're speaking of historical practice. No matter how many thousands of sites and/ or blogs pick it up, quote it without attribution and further spread it.
There MUST be an ancient source. There appears to be none.
I wanted to say when we started this discussion, but didn't, that due to the lack of knowledge in 2016 about the Classical world today what matters is the source of the material and a real scholar would cite the source where he or she discovered it.
I would prefer that we not be taken in this time. An ancient source needs to be cited. Once it's cited we can GO to the actual source and read it for ourselves. I think we will find somebody misinterpreted the word for brooch in a perfectly innocent document. I have seen this countless times on Wikipedia in reference to the Romans.
We need the ancient citation and whoever started this for whatever reason needs to be held accountable for where they got it, lest people be misled. I think it's important.
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Ginny, I think some of your post is revealing parts of Book ll with the chariot/ car keys. Are we planning to go beyond Book l?
Since the story of Phaethon continues into Book II, and all the best parts are in Book II, we will indeed go beyond Book I.
We thought that after Phaethon, we would end up with a scattering of the most important and interesting myths from other books. I forget who has an incomplete translation. If you are missing some of the stories, the translation by Kline, link in the heading, is good, even if it isn't poetry. Kline is also useful when you're not sure of the meaning of a line and want another take on it, and there is a helpful index/cast of characters.
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)
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Ginny from what I have read it in Rome it was a practice held for slaves - I re-read and that is what I think I shared in the post - one of the sites talk about it originating in Egypt and then the one professor from Egypt says no, that there is no evidence in the explored mummies. He believes the original practice came from sub-Africa - I've shared all that in the post.
This practice, several sites did say, Rome learned about after they advanced into Egypt and that where Egypt may not have started the practice it was an active practice in Egypt when Romans entered Egypt - again, there was no site that said Rome without being specific to slaves -
As to ancient data - there is much being learned because of advances in archaeological research that is adding to our current understanding of this ancient civilization - findings, not included in the plays and story telling. However, again I shared what was repeated in several sites and did not ruminate further.
This practice, to me the issue simply gives another example of the status of women - in Rome the information is, it was the slaves who were the recipient of this practice - and in Greece, how widespread the practice we do not know but, we do know of the effort to stop another practice, the traditional bride kidnapping -
There are several sites that did go into how kidnapping includes rape - some sites parse it further saying if the women is kidnapped for the purpose of marriage than any coupling would be rape - I have not read that Romans traditionally kidnapped their brides except the bit about the Sabine woman - an event that is passed on as a story retold - was it a one time deal or not - we do not know - kidnapping women and raping them today is a crime - in ancient times it was an nonpunishable happening worthy of a story that continues for thousands of years.
We see example after example of male dominance in these stories and so the concept of the 'good' girl I am seeing as the basis for these goddesses fleeing the male - we do not read how the fathers go after and punch out the males - we read how powerless the women are as they seek comfort even from a father - they, nor the father turn to their fighting nature - the woman only react by attempting to flee - and if like Hera, there is revenge it is not towards the men -
The 'good' girl reaction is typical to women with little to no power over their lives and over their sex lives. As late as 1950 Golda Meier suggested women stay home for their own safety - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/07/what-women-have-to-do-to-be-careful_n_7072080.html
Attempting to learn what the behavior in these stories is saying, since one of the reasons for a myth we learned is to teach - therefore, what is being taught with these scenes - By attempting to explore the status of women, knowing that infibulation was a practice and also, knowing the stories did not originate with Ovid but rather, many coming from not just Greece but an ancient world earlier than Greece and then, Ovid elevated these stories from the spoken tradition of everyday folks to writings, only read by the few who were capable of reading, any practice that would help us better understand the status of women offers some rational - these stories did not continue as classics because they were porn -
We know today infibulation is a huge problem in other areas of the world but not here in the US except by those families who emigrated and continue their traditional practices - Where the practice continues, women are not given the respect that we assume and is ingrained in our modern laws. Laws that for the most part have only been with us in the last 50 or so years.
We also had the good fortune to emigrate from a western culture that believed in love as a basis for marriage - to this day love is not a necessary part of marriage in all cultures. Therefore, for us to get a good handle on the status of women, more than simply as words, so that we are capable of seeing these stories as analogies to our interior life that blends our masculine with our feminine nature. Made more difficult is seeing these stories as analogies to our interior life from a patriarchal value system. Therefore, to meet that challenge my take is to explore the practices that tie women to male dominance which will help us fathom the analogies as written.
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Ginny, my Lombardo was findable. Here's the passage:
He had a friend, well-matched in age and spirit,
Phaethon, a child of the sun, who once began boasting
Of his solar parentage and would not back down
When Inachus’ grandson rejected his claim:
“You’re crazy to believe all your mother says,
And you’re swellheaded about your imagined father.”
Phaethon turned red. He repressed his anger out of shame
But brought Epaphus’ slander to his mother, Clymene:
Martin was hiding, but I tracked him down:
He had a friend, like him in age and spirit,
named Phaethon, the sun god’s child, One day
this boy was boasting, and in vanity
would not take second place to Epaphus,
so proud he was that Phoebus was his father.
The grandson of Inachus could not bear it:
“You are a fool—to trust your mother’s lies!
You’re swollen with false notions of your father!”
Phaethon blushed, and in embarrassment,
repressed the awful anger that he felt;
he went back to his mother, Clymene,
and told her what the other boy had said.
And here's Kline:
He had a friend, Phaethon, child of the Sun, equal to him in spirit and years, who once boasted proudly that Phoebus was his father, and refused to concede the claim, which Inachus’s grandson could not accept. ‘You are mad to believe all your mother says, and you have an inflated image of your father.’ Phaethon reddened but, from shame, repressed his anger, and went to his mother Clymene with Inachus’s reproof.
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So Phaethon cast the first insult, but Inachus escalated things with a deadlier one.
In general, a moral of the myths is don't get into a boasting or insulting contest; it'll end badly. Even worse if you take on one of the gods--you're toast, lucky if you end up something good like a constellation.
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Interesting he reddens from shame and anger, then takes the sun's chariot and cannot handle riding that red ball of fire across the sky and then experiences shame by another god who makes him fall head of heals in order to stop his crashing into earth.
Reminds me of our talk today to create something that would stop a meteor from crashing onto earth - is it the shame ;) of the universe that allows a meteor to be so wayward as to crash onto earth do you think - just a fun way of looking at this concept of shame for the improbability of imagining the sun as a father figure. Now that I have difficulty with and can only imagine the ancients seeing life as primarily begetting...
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Just hit me - Phaethon gets angry - we hear of god after god getting angry but when do we ever hear of a goddess getting angry - so looked it up - it looks like when women get angry they are not likened to wrath and sending thunderbolts or carrying out competitive daring deeds or the many other expressions of anger by the gods - if a women is angry she is afflicted with madness, in other words she has a loose screw in her head.
LYSSA was the goddess or daimona (spirit) of rage, fury, raging madness, frenzy, and, in animals, of the madness of rabies. The Athenians spelt her name Lytta.
Lyssa was a figure of Athenian tragedy. In Aeschylus she appears as the agent of Dionysos sent to drive the Minyades mad; and in Euripides she is sent by Hera to inflict Herakles. Greek vase-paintings of the period also confirm her appearance in plays about Aktaion, the hunter torn apart by his madenned hounds. In this scene she appears a women dressed in a short skirt, and crowned with a dog's-head cap to represent the madness of rabies.
Lyssa was closley related to the Maniai, the goddesses of mania and madness. Her Roman equivalent was variously named as Ira, Furor or Rabies. Sometimes she was multiplied into a host of Irae and Furores.
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Barb, With utmost respect, I have learned over the many years with SeniorLearn there will never come a time we all agree and there is never any right or wrong to a person's interpretation of any set of words. We draw from our own personal experiences, our own beliefs, our own research, and conclusions of what we ourselves perceive. I admire how you delve deeper than most of us and are able to go into the time frames of the story. My comments are never to be combative or argumentative, and for certain never to try to convince another person to change their way of thinking or to show I am right and they are wrong. I may not always frame my comments in the sense I intend. But that being said, it's the joys of differences and NO absolutes that make our discussions interesting, lively from time to time, and very informative. I'll be the first to admit I feel much like a duckling learning to swim up next to most of you brilliant members, and appreciate you even consider my input.
Thank you PatH., for the various translations.
My translation is Allen Mandelbaum, and his and all the others do show that: Phaethon did indeed throw the first insult at Epaphus.
PatH.,So Phaethon cast the first insult, but Inachus escalated things with a deadlier one.
In general, a moral of the myths is don't get into a boasting or insulting contest; it'll end badly. Even worse if you take on one of the gods--you're toast, lucky if you end up something good like a constellation.
Yes, the constant moral we see is, don't tick off any of the male chauvinistic gods, least you will find yourself transformed into god only knows what, or an innocent goddess may be raped and turned into something else as well. I mean look at what Daphne suffered because Apollo ticked off Cupid.
What was Ovid's intent in bringing up this little tit for tat between what were suppose to be two friends? Why did Phaethon feel the need to insult Epaphus? Is this just Ovid finding a segway into the next book, hence Epaphus to cause Phaethon question his lineage, in turn he questions his mother, who then tells him to go to his father for proof?
Goodness, goodness, Phaethon crashing the chariot reminds me of my son when he was only in his teens borrowing my brand new beautiful sporty Ford Probe, and totalling it. I suppose much like Phoebus warning Phaethon that was a bit too much for him to handle, I too felt my car was a bit more than my son should handle just getting his license and not have much experience with driving especially on the highway. Again, nothing much changes over the centuries. I, like Phoebus should not have given into my son's selfish wants. What's that scripture, "Spare the rod, spoil the child."
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I don't recommend ticking off the goddesses (or mortal women) either. When Actaeon ticked off Diana, she turned him into a stag, so his own hounds hunted him down and killed him. When Arachne ticked off Minerva by boasting of her weaving, Minerva turned her into a spider. When Tiresias ticked off Juno, she blinded him. And when Jason ticked off Medea, she killed their children.
Thank goodness we don't have sun chariots to lend our fledgling drivers.
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Barb, I had to laugh out loud reading this:
Interesting he reddens from shame and anger, then takes the sun's chariot and cannot handle riding that red ball of fire across the sky and then experiences shame by another god who makes him fall head of heals in order to stop his crashing into earth.
For some reason I saw poor angry Phaethon jumping from the frying pan into the fire. He starts his insults, feels shame and anger with Epaphus, and then turns around and creates a huge mess and ends up feeling yet more.... shame and anger. He just doesn't know when to quit. ::) ::) ::)
PatH., What is that quote, about a woman scorned?
(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/eb/c7/1e/ebc71e2bed3c77e17bcc6e5b485882b6.jpg)
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;D
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aowww good ones - Diana and Medea - Minerva spider auh, OK but not really guts and gore, and Juno blinding Tiresias, a loss but doable for Tiresias - where as Diana and Medea, although most feature her as a 'mad' hag, both do the ugly right up there with the guys.
Please you know this is all tongue and cheek - just reminds me of how we look at girls who get angry versus boys - although I notice it is getting better and girls are acceptable when they show their anger.
I am thinking the moral of the Phaethon story is when you get too big for your hat it is as if you were a taking on the sun, the highest and hottest rights to brag in town - either prove you can do what you say you can do or expect to embarrass yourself when someone takes you down.
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Now Phaethon moves to scenes of great splendor. The gods themselves are so blindingly splendid that mortals are destroyed if they look on their true form. (Funny, they don't look that remarkable on the vases.) Phaethon has to keep his distance from his father. But Phoebus' palace! What a rich description of its beauties. What details resonated most with you?
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BARB: " As late as 1950 Golda Meier suggested women stay home for their own safety." You got the story backward. What she was quoted as saying in the article you cited was "But it is the men who are attacking the women. If there is to be a curfew, let the men stay at home." I also heard that story many times when I was in Israel.
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having finished the story of Phaeton, I'm wondering if it was passed down as a way of explaining a natural disaster that had happened in the past. Or all natural disasters, since they are all there.
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I wasn't seeing it as backwards Joan - I saw it as something that was still brought up in 1950 - that ideas like women staying home or what they wore was still a common thought that had to be challenged.
An explanation for natural disaster - had not thought but that could fit wouldn't it - it appears anything not understood was because of the power of a god - maybe healthier than today when things happen beyond our ability to change or to really understand, many of try to either find the good or blame ourselves - hmm now blaming a god - almost like that comedian, forgot his name, that used to say the devil made him do it...
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I finished reading Book ll today, and it really left me feeling a bit drained. I was saddened that Phaethon died. This part just tore at my heart:
HERE PHAETHON LIES:
HIS DARING DROVE THE BOY TO DRIVE
HIS FATHER'S CHARIOT: HE TRIED
AND FAILED. BUT IN HIS FALL HE GAINED
THE DEATH OF ONE SUPREMELY BRAVE.
Meanwhile,his father, Phoebus, in despair,
hid his own face; the world, for one full day__
if we believe what ancient stories say__
was left without a single ray of sun.
The only light came from the conflagration:
that way, at least, the fires served some need.
But Clymene, once she had spoken all
that can be said when such disaster falls,
went wild; she tore her robes; across the world
she wandered, searching for his lifeless body
at first, and then his bones; and these she found
at last long the foreign riverbank
where they'd been buried. Clymene lay prone
upon that grave; her warm tears bathed the stone
on which she read his name; beside the Po,
with her bared breasts, she warmed his sepulcher.
I am thinking for me, these are by far the most tender, loving and greatest words expressed, so far in this poem. Ovid has captured the true unadulterated, unmasked, undying love a mother has for her son. Absolutely beautiful!!!
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Why did Phaethon feel the need to insult Epaphus?
Just out of curiosity I thought I'd translate the Epaphus/ Phaethon encounter for myself, because some of us are getting something I did not see in the Latin..
Tell me where I'm going wrong here?
Nunc dea linigera colitur celeberrima turba.
Now the revered goddess (Io) is worshiped by a huge crowd.
huic Epaphus magni genitus de semine tandem creditur esse Iovis perque urbes
of whom Epaphus is believed, after all, to be the descendant of great Jupiter and throughout the cities (lands)
iuncta parenti templa tenet.
he holds the temples jointly with his parent Io.
fuit huic animis aequalis et annis Sole satus Phaethon,
There was to this young man a soul equal in spirit and years, considered the son of the Sun, Phaethon
quem quondam magna loquentem
whom once (while) speaking large (just like the modern idiom) or grandiosely
nec sibi cedentem Phoeboque parente superbum non tulit Inachides
and, not yielding to him, (Epaphus), the grandson of Inachus, not able to bear his (Phaethon's) pride in respect to his parent, Phoebus,
“matri” que ait “omnia demens credis et es tumidus genitoris imagine falsi.”
said "you are demented if you believe all the things that your mother has been saying, and you are swellheaded (literally) about the false conceptions of your father.
Beats me how anybody can understand that a boy bragging about his own dad deserved to be told his mother is a liar and his father is not his father. Them's fightin' words.
Phaethon does not appear to have attacked Io or Jupiter or to have said anything at all about Epaphus but Epaphus couldn't stand anybody else proud of their parent and turned on him.
That IS what it says literally. I don't see that Phaethon started anything except bragging on his own father, and would not yield, (cedentem), Epaphus would not let him have that moment, HE was the important one.
I'm sorry but I don't see Phaethon having "started it," or anything else. It didn't get personal until Epaphus opened his mouth.
Here's how Miller translates it:
Now, with fullest service, she is worshipped as a goddess by the linen-robed throng. A son, Epaphus, was born to her, thought to have sprung at length from the seed of mighty Jove, and throughout the cities dwelt in temples with his mother. He had a companion of like mind and age named Phaëthon, child of the Sun. When this Phaëthon was once speaking proudly, and refused to give way to him, boasting that Phoebus was his father, the grandson of Inachus rebelled and said: “You are a fool to believe all your mother tells you, and are swelled up with false notions about your father.” Phaëthon grew red with rage, but repressed his anger through very shame and carried Epaphus’ insulting taunt straight to his mother, Clymene.
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That's interesting. Nothing about P insulting E's status.
Again, the sky staying dark for a day sounds like the aftermath of a volcanic eruption.
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Do you think her tears are rain that happens with the sun is hidden behind rain clouds.
Clymene lay prone
upon that grave; her warm tears bathed the stone
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So Phaethon was bragging, maybe a little obnoxiously, but not really attacking Epaphus. Since Epaphus is a resident of his mother's temple, he's probably used to being the most important guy around, and can't stand to see someone else be important too. He blows up, insults Phaethon's mother. Phaethon, furious at Epaphus, and furious at himself for not defending her, asks for the proof that will set off the tragedy.
It's interesting that in this myth, unlike those we've been reading, no one intends any of the bad things that happen. Epaphus wasn't trying to get his friend killed, none of the others wanted anything bad to happen to him. But Phaethon's refusal to reconsider his rash request makes his end inevitable.
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I think what we need to realize is that each translation is using different words, which depending on which translation you are deciding to interpret you will see and react to. My translation of Allen Mandelbaum shows that Phaethon starts this entire ridiculous tit for tat by this: "claimed that he was better born than Epaphus" which in turn Epaphus then decides to retaliate.
Her son was Epaphus, and it's believed
that she gave birth to him from great Jove's seed;(obviously it was through the rape before turned into a cow)
he shares his mother's shrines in many cities.
The peer of Epaphus in temperament
and age was Phoebus' son, young Phaethon.
Once, Phaethon__so proud to have the Sun
as father__claimed that he was better born
than Epaphus, who met that claim with scorn:
"Fool, do you think that all your mother says
is true__those lying tales that swelled your head?"
And Phaethon blushed: ashamed, the boy was forced
to check his scorn, he hurried off at once
to tell Clymene of that calumny:
"And, mother, what will cause you still more pain,
is this: I, who am frank, so prone to pride,
was tongue-tied. I am mortified__ashamed
that I could be insulted in this way__
yet not rebut the charge! So, if in truth
my lineage is heavenly, provide
the proof of my high birth, and justify
my claim to have a father in the sky!"
PatH., So Phaethon was bragging, maybe a little obnoxiously, but not really attacking Epaphus.
I have to disagree, the words state, "claimed that he was better born than Epaphus". This is clearly an attack on Epaphus.
I think it shows us that when you decide to brag about yourself, making others feel less born, by claiming you are "better born" you need to understand those can be hurtful and inciteful words. Phaethon's ego seems to have gotten the better of himself, first he boasts about himself, and when Epaphus takes him down a notch by making him doubt his lineage, instead of standing up to Epaphus like a "better born" proud son would, he instead does nothing and goes to his mother with anger and shame. It doesn't end there, he has to take this even further and go to his father for proof, and when his father says yes it is true you are my son, that still is not enough he demands his father to prove it by granting him a wish. And that is not enough, he has to go overboard and ask to drive the chariot no other than his father can handle. His loving father wants nothing more to please and prove to his son that he indeed IS is father, but he wants Phaeton to be reasonable and level headed, and tells him this chariot is NOT something he can handle.
For me, Phaethon's words and actions escalated because of his stubborn pride, overinflated ego, and anger and shame. At some point it is no longer about the original I'm better than you remark, it becomes about Phaethon needing to prove to HIMSELF he is better than everyone else, including his own father. Putting others down, to puff yourself up is a lesson everyone needs to learn will never satisfy your ownself. Boasting and bragging to me, is a form of self doubt. Phaethon was full of himself, and it ended in a tragedy. There is nothing wrong with having pride of your family heritage, what is wrong, is when you try to make another person feel less due to your pride.
PatH., It's interesting that in this myth, unlike those we've been reading, no one intends any of the bad things that happen. Epaphus wasn't trying to get his friend killed, none of the others wanted anything bad to happen to him.
I agree, I don't see anyone intended for any of the bad things to happen.
What we can all agree on is that Phaethon's stubborn pride ended in his tragic, senseless death.
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Yes, the translations say that Phaeton claims he's better born than Epaphus. Ginny's point is that that's not quite what the Latin says.
Anyway, a real line was crossed when Epaphus called Phaethon's mother a liar and questioned her story of Phaethon's parentage. It was reasonable for Phaethon to get so mad at this. He didn't dare fight back, and afterward was ashamed of himself for not properly defending his mother.
I can't help thinking of it as a boy's ______ing contest that got out of hand.
Notice that Phoebus gets caught having to honor his promise to Phaethon because he swore on the Styx.
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I see the Romans vastly entertained and amused by this extravagant tall tale which begins with Phaethon's pride and ends with Clymene's remorse. She did lie to him and she did send him to his death. Miraculous conception indeed! And of course the sun god would like to believe that he fathered every thing that lives.
What an unbelievable galactic journey. What a poet! What an age!
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Would a Roman living in Pompeii or Herculaneum when Vesuvius erupted have recalled Ovid's version of Phaeton as fissures opened in the mountain and deadly ash from the fiery eruption poured down? Would he or she have prayed to Apollo, Zeus, and Vulcan for salvation? Ovid's terrifying description of the earthly disaster caused by Phaeton's childish wish to drive his father's the golden chariot across the heavens matches the reality of that historic eruption.
The immediate picture people of our day envision when reading Phaeton is of an adolescent begging to drive the family car solo. But Ovid paints a much more profound picture than that of a heedless teen-ager taking the road to his own destruction. This is clear from Apollo's admonition (in Lombardo's translation):
….Your lot is mortal; What you ask for is not.
****
None, except myself, has the power to stand
On the running board of the chariot of fire.
So Ovid's lesson for first century Romans reiterates that even the human off-spring of the gods are not immortal and and cannot perform the duties of a Graeco-Roman god.
Neverthless, Ovid imbues Apollo with the human traits of regret for his uncancellable oath, love for his newly found child, grief for the child's death, and a subsequent depression so deep that Apollo wishes to abandon his daily duty to bring light to the world. In attempting to dissuade his son, he even admits to trembling fear when he is at the height of his journey. Once again, Ovid describes a god made in mankind's image.
Ovid speaks movingly of the grief of Phaeton's mother, but, mocks the mourning of his sisters,
the Heliades, who though they lament no less than their mother, give “tears and other useless tributes
to the dead..., calling pitifully/Day and night on Phaethon, who would never hear them,....Is this just a manifestation of cold-hearted Stoicism? Then the sisters' mourning results, strangely, in another metamorphosis, when they are sealed into trees that drip amber “To be be worn one day by the brides of Rome.”
Equally strange is the fate of Phaethon's cousin, Cygnus, who, while mourning is turned into a swan at the site of the poplars that were Phaethon's weeping sisters. Sad story, but one struggles to find the motivation for it. Perhaps Ovid recited the tales of the Heliades and Cygnus for no other reason than that they were metamorphoses were already known to his readers and listerners.
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One "were" too many in the last line. A consequence of editorial pentimento.
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PatH.,
I can't help thinking of it as a boy's ______ing contest that got out of hand.
I have to laugh out loud because I used this same reference to Apollo and Cupid's ridiculous fight that also got out of hand. I fully understand Ginny's Latin version does not show what Mandelbaum's and the others do, and with that I pointed out we will take from what our translations and the majority says and so there really is not right or wrong. I did not see Epaphus crossing a line because Phaethon had threw the first insult, where lineage was concerned by stating, "claimed that he was better born than Epaphus"
This is my last comment on this topic because I seem to be repeating myself over and over again. And am agreeing to disagree. ;)
Now, let's move on to the interesting comment Jonathan has posted: She did lie to him and she did send him to his death. Miraculous conception indeed! And of course the sun god would like to believe that he fathered everything that lives.
I am not at all familiar with the lineages, so did Clymene lie to Phaethon that Phoebus is his father? Is it at all possible Epaphus knew about the truth and so he revealed it to smug Phaethon? I asked earlier if Phaethon could have known about Epaphus being born of rape, and was boasting he came from a better lineage. So, now is Ovid revealing the truth of Phaethon's birth? I feel like Jonathan has opened up Pandora's box!! Do tell??? I guess I am on a search until Jonathan or someone else can help me better understand this post.
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howshap, ALL good points you have brought up!
Again, females are being transformed due to a male god's pride and transgressions. Why on earth were the three sisters Phaethusa, Lampetia and (unnamed) Phoibe turned into poplar trees for weeping for their brother Phaethon? And then when Cycnus weeps alongside the three sisters he is turned into a swan.
Is there some sort of message here that deep affection and sorrow is not tolerated? Even Phoebus loving Phaethon so much to not tell him no to the chariot ends in death.
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I don't see where Clymene has lied to Phaethon. She says he is Phoebus' son, and Phoebus acknowledges it:
You are worthy
to be called my own, and Clymene did tell you
Your true origin.
Lombardo
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JONATHAN: "What an unbelievable galactic journey. What a poet! What an age!"
I agree. We may deplore attitudes toward women (and forget that it was not just the Greeks and Romans, but every civilization that we know of from that time). But there is something universal in these tales. Phaeton's journey, his mothers tears resonate through the ages.
HOWSHAP: quotes "Your lot is mortal; What you ask for is not." I think that is the crux. Is this hubris again: a mortal thinking he is as good as a god? here is where it crosses over from a ----ing contest which might have resulted in Phaeton's death if it got out of hand, to something that not only causes his death but widespread death and destruction.
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HOWSHAP: love your use of editorial pentimento above. I had to look it up.
"A pentimento (plural pentimenti) is an alteration in a painting, evidenced by traces of previous work, showing that the artist has changed his or her mind"
I'm sure I have had many editorial pentimenti.
BELLAMARIE: yes, we have an instance here of how important translation is, and how a different translation can change our whole perception of a scene. Scary, isn't it.
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Another thought came to my mind.....Phoebus gave into Phaethon's wish, knowing he not only could not handle that chariot which puts him in harm's way, but it also puts everyone and everything in harm's way.
Mother Earth is begging for Jove to intercede:
And mother Earth
around whom all the waters crowded close
(the waters of the sea and the parched springs
that on all sides were seeking some asylum
within her darkest innards), raised her face__
scorched to the neck__and, wearily, at last
lifted her hand up to her brow and shuddered,
shaking all things; and when she's settled back
(a little lower than she'd been before),
her words were stifled as she begged: "Great lord
of all the gods, if I indeed deserve
this fate, and it's decreed, do not delay
your thunderbolts! If I am meant to face
a death by fire,let it be your flames
that strike me down__for that would mitigate
my ruin. Even speech is hard for me__
just opening my lips" (a gust of smoke
has almost choked her).
She goes on to plead and then:
Here Earth fell silent__and, in any case,
she could no longer stand the savage flames,
nor utter other words. And she withdrew
into herself__into her deepest caves,
recess closest to the land of Shades.
The the Almighty Father, calling on
the gods as witnesses (and above all,
on Phoebus, who had lent that chariot),
declares that if he does not intervene,
all things will face a dread catastrophe.
He climbs to heaven's highest point, the place
from which he sends his cloud banks down to earth,
from which he moves his thunder and deploys
his bolts of lightning. But he does not bring
his clouds, his downpours: thunder serves his cause;
and after balancing a lightning bolt
in his right hand, from his ear's height he throws
that shaft at Phaethon; and it hurls him out
of both his chariot and his life;
Phoebus the father, did not take into accountability of his own responsibility for everything and everyone when he so carelessly gave into his selfish, demanding son's wish. A lesson we can all learn from.
PatH., I don't see where Clymene has lied to Phaethon. She says he is Phoebus' son, and Phoebus acknowledges it:
You are worthy
to be called my own, and Clymene did tell you
Your true origin.
Lombardo
I did not see Clymene as not telling the truth to Phaethon either, but I am waiting to see if Jonathan can give some clarity in his comment. I have been searching and can not find anything that proves Phoebus was not Phaethon's father. Now, possibly, Clymene could have prevented the entire thing from happening by telling Phaethon of course he is your father and let it be. But Phaethon was digging his heels in, he was acting prideful, immature and allowed Epaphus plant doubt, rather than stand up to Epaphus. But then if he had we would never have the story of the chariot ride and death of Phaethon.
Isn't it a bit ironic that Jove the father of Epaphus, is the one who saves Earth, and yet destroys Phaethon? Seems everything came full circle. :o
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BELLAMARIE: "Why on earth were the three sisters ... turned into poplar trees for weeping for their brother Phaethon?"
I'm still not clear whether being turned into a tree was considered a punishment or an honor. it was a relief from suffering and a kind of immortality (yes trees die, but I have the feeling that all such trees are considered to have the original spirit in them). Ovid seems to share that confusion: at one point (if I remember correctly) he says that Io's father doesn't know whether to congratulate or commiserate with Daphne's father.
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JoanK.,
BELLAMARIE: yes, we have an instance here of how important translation is, and how a different translation can change our whole perception of a scene. Scary, isn't it.
When we decide to use different translations, and some are not available to all of us to compare, it does indeed make it confusing, questioning and scary, to see how we can disagree so strongly on something, due to the translator changing around some words, that can give a different outlook on the scene taking place. I must admit every site I have referenced on this particular scene every one of them have agreed it was Phaethon's boastfulness throwing the first insult that began the ----ing contest, leading to his own demise. ;)
JoanK., HOWSHAP: quotes "Your lot is mortal; What you ask for is not." I think that is the crux. Is this hubris again: a mortal thinking he is as good as a god? here is where it crosses over from a ----ing contest to something that not only causes Phaeton's death but major death and destruction.
Yes, it sure did go way beyond a tit for tat, or ----ing contest. At this point a more mature, clearer thinking head should have prevailed, but Phoebus could not stand up to his son, even to save his life.
Thanks JoanK., for pointing out the possibility, it could have been out of honor or compassion, the sisters and Cycnus were transformed. Seems these gods have a way of getting people out of the most stressful situations by transforming them.
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Jonathan were you being hubris? I'm awaiting your return. Don't make me send the gods for you. :) :) :) :)
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Joan - Why Trees - maybe because all the stars and waters were taken??!!?? Considering the average lifespan I bet trees lived longer than most men...
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Tragedy - the main character is brought to ruin or suffers extreme sorrow, especially as a consequence of a tragic flaw, moral weakness or inability to cope with unfavorable circumstances. A disastrous event, especially one involving distressing loss or injury to life: that invokes an accompanying catharsis or pleasure in audiences.
It appears we have a myth that is a Tragedy...
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Ginny's Latin version does not show what Mandelbaum's and the others do
What others? Where do you see anybody BUT Mandlebaum talking about Phaethon saying he was better than Epaphus? Not in this discussion. In fact they are all saying, including mine, the same thing. Mandlebaum is the odd man out.
Let me take time I don't have to tell you what you should have seen. I will try to be VERY clear.
1. You should have seen a literal translation of the very Latin words. Looks awkward? Looks stilted? That's the LITERAL. Literal means "by the letter." THAT is what the passage says?
That is what Ovid said. Unpolished. Untranslated. Unimbellished. Apparently we're not aware of the translator's vast art, how HE takes it and HE embellishes it into a polished piece?
2. Can you not appreciate from seeing the literal how creative some of these translators are?
The Latin (that would be OVID) does not say Phaethon said he was better than Epaphus, for Pete's sake. It does not say it. I don't care what Mandlebaum said, it's not THERE. He has made that up.
Lombardo doesn't say it. (Because it's not there) Miller doesn't say it (Because it's not there) Kline doesn't say it, (because it's not there). Martin doesn't say it (because it's not there).
Those are accurate translations. Mandlebaum's is not.
It's not THERE!
Ovid did NOT say that.
And because OVID did not say it, it is not there. Period.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Phaethon.jpg)
The Fall of Phaethon by Sebastiano Ricci, 1703-04, Belluno
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
For Your Consideration:
“Week” Four: Phaethon!
Bk I:747-764 Phaethon’s parentage
Bk I:765-779 Phaethon sets out for the Palace of the Sun
Bk II:1-30 The Palace of the Sun
Bk II:31-48 Phaethon and his father
What Do You Think?
1. Are there any themes which appear in the beginning of the Phaethon story while it's still in Book I which could happen today?
2. Why is Clymene angry?
Let's discuss the end of Book I.
Former Questions, Still up for Grabs:
1. What to you is the saddest thing in the Io story?
2. This story is full of beautiful descriptions. Which lines particularly struck you? Do they interfere with the plot line?
3. What effect do the flashback elements and the interruption of the Pan and Syrinx have on the reader's feelings for Io?
4. What would you say is the tone of the Io story?
5. This is quite a story, it has two metamorphoses and two aetiological myths in it. Which one is the most important?
6. What might Io's struggles to communicate symbolize in our own time?
7. Who actually has the last word in this section?
8. What's your impression of Io's father?
9. If you had to choose between being Io or Daphne, which one would you choose? Why?
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
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Good. Now we know. and if we only had M's translation (and didn't know Latin), we wouldn't. And if we only had M's and one other, we would be confused.
Now, of course, I wouldn't trust M's translation as far as I could throw it.
by the way, check the painting in the heading.
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https://www.facebook.com/hellojoyus/videos/1014617685272763/
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Two points. First, Apollo's fault was in swearing an oath on the river Styx that he could not thereafter forswear.
Second, the question of who started the "nyah, nyah" contest between Epaphus and Phaeton is answered definitively by Ginny's translation. Interestingly, Ted Hughes version of the tale does not even mention Epaphus. Hughes pares the story down to beautiful English poetry, but reduces the beginning to these lines:
When Phaethon bragged about his father, Phoebus
The sun-god,
His friends mocked him. "Your mother must be crazy,
Or you're crazy to believe her.
How could the sun be anybody's father?"
That opening is a long way from Ovid's Latin.
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Ginny, I have researched numerous sites trying to find one that supports your standing that Phaethon was not the first to begin the boasting and belittling of Epaphus, and have been unable to find even one. Please let's move on. There comes a point we have to agree to disagree. Even your Latin translation FOR ME supports Phaethon was the first to boast, and insult, and his behavior from that point on shows his immaturity, boastfulness, refusal to even believe his own mother so he goes to his father who tells him, yes I am your father, but that still is not enough, he demands proof by wanting one wish, that proves to be a death wish.
You can argue Mandelbaum's translation is false, but I only typed the exact words from my book. We all agreed to use various translations when we began the discussion, so I think it's only fair we not try to discredit any of the translations. I am not trying to defend Mandelbaum's translation. It happens to be the one my library had available. I have never heard of Ovid before this discussion so I am feeling like you are attacking me for using quotes from Mandelbaum's translation. This has gone far beyond necessary. Please, let's move on.
howshap, Second, the question of who started the "nyah, nyah" contest between Epaphus and Phaeton is answered definitively by Ginny's translation.
Then why in all the other translations we have provided has it been about Epaphus and Phaeton, and in every site I have gone to in the last week which are numerous, say it was Epaphus and Phaeton? If we are to say Ginny's translation is the ONLY one we can go by then why would we even bother reading any other translation but that one?
Regardless of who's says what......Phaethon has as I said above, showed immaturity, bad judgement, bad behavior and acted like a spoiled child. He brought his death upon himself for not standing up to whoever challenged his lineage, by not taking his mother's word, and then forcing his father to prove it by giving him his wish that would ultimately lead to his death. That is the entire point of this section, no matter who was involved in questioning his lineage. I am done discussing this. I'm beginning to feel like Epaphus and Phaethon in a ----ing contest. :) :)
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JoanK.,
Now, of course, I wouldn't trust M's translation as far as I could throw it.
So do we also discredit every scholar, and every site on the internet that discusses the section of Epaphus and Phaethon by name? What about the translations PatH., provided that also mentions Epaphus and Phaethon? Do we also not trust them as far as we can throw them? I am so confused????
Ginny, What others? Where do you see anybody BUT Mandlebaum talking about Phaethon saying he was better than Epaphus? Not in this discussion. In fact they are all saying, including mine, the same thing. Mandlebaum is the odd man out.
Here are different translations that PatH., provided to us, and I have highlighted to show indeed other than Mandelbaum uses the names Epaphus, and or Inachus' grandson who is one in the same.
PatH., Posts 8545
Ginny, my Lombardo was findable. Here's the passage:
He had a friend, well-matched in age and spirit,
Phaethon, a child of the sun, who once began boasting
Of his solar parentage and would not back down
When Inachus’ grandson rejected his claim:
“You’re crazy to believe all your mother says,
And you’re swellheaded about your imagined father.”
Phaethon turned red. He repressed his anger out of shame
But brought Epaphus’ slander to his mother, Clymene:
Martin was hiding, but I tracked him down:
He had a friend, like him in age and spirit,
named Phaethon, the sun god’s child, One day
this boy was boasting, and in vanity
would not take second place to Epaphus,
so proud he was that Phoebus was his father.
The grandson of Inachus could not bear it:
“You are a fool—to trust your mother’s lies!
You’re swollen with false notions of your father!”
Phaethon blushed, and in embarrassment,
repressed the awful anger that he felt;
he went back to his mother, Clymene,
and told her what the other boy had said.
And here's Kline:
He had a friend, Phaethon, child of the Sun, equal to him in spirit and years, who once boasted proudly that Phoebus was his father, and refused to concede the claim, which Inachus’s grandson could not accept. ‘You are mad to believe all your mother says, and you have an inflated image of your father.’ Phaethon reddened but, from shame, repressed his anger, and went to his mother Clymene with Inachus’s reproof.
________________________________
And of course here is Mandelbaum
"claimed that he was better born than Epaphus"
If you go to this link it has Ovid's Metamorphoses not only in Latin, but it has the English translation alongside it. On page 46 it too says in both languages Epaphus and Phaethon have their ----ing contest.
https://archive.org/stream/metamorphosestra00oviduoft#page/46/mode/2up
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Barb, that video is beautiful!!!
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(https://ia700408.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/30/items/metamorphosestra00oviduoft/metamorphosestra00oviduoft_jp2.zip&file=metamorphosestra00oviduoft_jp2/metamorphosestra00oviduoft_0019.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0)
Here are the pages 46 and 47 that covers this section, in Latin and in English:
(https://ia700408.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/30/items/metamorphosestra00oviduoft/metamorphosestra00oviduoft_jp2.zip&file=metamorphosestra00oviduoft_jp2/metamorphosestra00oviduoft_0074.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0)
(https://ia700408.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/30/items/metamorphosestra00oviduoft/metamorphosestra00oviduoft_jp2.zip&file=metamorphosestra00oviduoft_jp2/metamorphosestra00oviduoft_0075.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0)
https://archive.org/stream/metamorphosestra00oviduoft#page/46/mode/2up
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BARB: beautiful, indeed! I had no idea that all white peacocks existed.
I'm sorry if I fanned the flames in the controversy over Phaeton and Epaphus. I agree with Bellamarie: let's agree to disagree. No matter which started it, it's Phaeton we are concerned with here: Epaphus plays his part and disappears from the stage (my spellcheck doesn't even recognize his name, whereas it does recognize Phaeton}. And there's no question Phaeton acts immaturely.
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Acrtually, at the risk of opening the discussion all over again, I bet I have a guess as to what the source of confusion is. According to Ginny's translation, Phaeton is "not yielding to him, (Epaphus)"
What does that mean? Yielding what? I know in some societies, precedence is all important: who is seated and served at dinner before whom etc. and go by rank. Such things may seem trivial to us, but in some cultures are sources of great pride. If P would not yield pride of place to E (went before him, say, or refusing to honor a request or order) this would be the equivalent of saying "you are lower born than me."
GINNY:Does this make sense in Roman society?
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One aspect we're shortchanging a bit is the sheer beauty of the poem. Bellamarie pointed out the beautifully crafted mourning of Clymene for her son. There's also the glorious description of the palace of the Sun, so full of splendor. And we're about to come to Phaethon's ride--that really blew me away.
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JoanK., You did not fan the flames. I am just frustrated because in every translation and language it is clear from the beginning of XV There is the set up for this to take place between Epaphus and Phaeton. They are trying to show they are either on equal ground, or even better than each other. I am certain in any culture, at any time of any century this is important, but it seems to be placed in this poem to set the entire scenes to come in Book ll.
I took the text of Latin and translated it into English, and words of course are not EXACT, but shows there is no question these two are having a tit for tat, which leads to Phaeton questioning his lineage. Phaeton is furious not only with Epaphus, but he is furious with himself for not being able to stand up to Epaphus. This just escalates and from this point on Phaeton's actions are irrational, and immature, which ultimately leads to Book ll, his demise.
XV. Huic Epaphus magni genitus de semine
Tandem
Creditur esse Jovis: perque urbes juncta parenti
Templa tenet. Tuit huic animis aqualis et annis,
Sole satus Phaeton: quem quondam magna lo_
Quentem,
Nec sibi cedentem, Phoeboq: parente superbum
Nontulit Inachides: matrique, ait, omnia demens
Credis: et es tumidus genitoris imagine falsi.
Erubuit Phaeton, iramque pudore repressit: 755
Et tulit ad Clymenen Epaphi convicia matrem.
Quoque magis doleas, genitrix, ait, Ille ego liber,
Ille ferox tacui: pudet haec opprobria nobis
Et dici potuisse, et non potuisse refelli.
At tu, si modo sum coelesti stirpe creates, 760
Ede notam tanti generis: meque assere coelo.
Dixit: et implicuit materno brachia collo;
Perque suum, Meropisq; caput taedasq; sororum,
Traderet, oravit, very sibi signa parentis.
15. At last, this is believed to be Epaphus, was born of the seed of Jupiter: and throughout the cities joined temples with his mother. Of water, and it was made in the minds of this years, the sun start the Phaeton, which was formerly called Magna lo_ follows, Do not let her effect, his Phoeboq: your parents' brooked not Inachides: and his mother, and said, Do you believe that all things out of his mind, and the image of the father of what is false are so puffed up. Blushed Phaeton, and rage at a sense of shame restrained: 755 And he took the taunts of Epaphus to his mother, Clymene. And by how much sorrow, Mother of God, he said, it was me, the bold and I was silent: I am ashamed to us, And the reproaches of those who could be said to these things, and that I could not be refuted. But you, if I am the heavenly stock, 760 give proof of that kind, and that I claimed as heaven. Then he clasps his mother's arms and neck; Through his Meropisq; head taeda sq; sisters, death, and prayed, and very made signs to his father.
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XV. Epaphus tandem creditor esse genitus huic de semine magni Jovis; temetque temyla juncta parenti per urbes, Phaeton satus sole fuit equalis huic animis et annisquam Inachidez non tulit, loquentem quondam magna, nec cedentem sibi, superbum que parente Phabo; uitque, demands, credits omnia matri; et es tumidus imagine false genitors. Phaeton erubuit, re-pressitque iram pudore, et tulit convicia Epaphi ad matrem Clymenen. Antique quo genitrix magis doleus; ego ille liber, ille ferox tacui. Pudet et hac opprobria potuisse dici nobis, et non potuisse refelli. At tu, si modo sum creates stirpe calesti, ede notam tanti generis; que assere me calo. Dixit; et implicuit brachia collo materno. Oravitque per suum caput, perque caput Meropis, tudesque sororum, ut traderet sibi signa very parentis.
15. Epaphus, at length, the creditor is to be begotten of the seed of this great Jupiter; temetque temyl joined his father in the cities, the Phaeton starts sun was equal to their courage and for whom Inachidez not taken, once the speaking voice, not yielding to him, arrogant parent Phabo; he moved, out of his mind, do you believe all things to his mother; and are bloated image false genitors. Phaeton chain, re-pressitque anger, shame, and took the abuse to his mother Epaphus Clymenen. And says the mother suffers; Yes, he has, the bold and I became dumb. I am ashamed of this, and the rebukes of them that could be said to be our, and that I could not be refuted. Oh, if only I was made the family of the heavenly, give proof of that kind; and board for me to heat. He said; and clasps his arms around her mother's. And the people by His own head, and by the head of Merops, tudesque sisters together, to deliver very made signs to his father.
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I am not a Latin expert and am in no way attempting to seem as one. I am only discussing the poem in the form I see it, with as much help from sites of scholars discussing it over the centuries, as well as graduates and undergraduates writing theses on this poem. As I stated, I have diligently searched the internet trying to show where this scene in not as it seems and can not find even one. If you even type into Google, Epaphus and Phaeton's names it will direct you to numerous sites telling of their dispute in this poem.
I thought this was a pretty accurate and cute pic to show what these two probably looked like acting like children. Just a little humor to lighten the discussion.
(http://booxalive.nl/wp-content/uploads/wow-slider-plugin/3/images/phaethon03.jpg)
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PatH., Yes, I was taken aback by the beauty of the scene with the mother and sisters. The chariot ride takes you through so much descriptiveness that I imagined it on a movie screen. Not knowing this poem before discussing it here, I was in total shock that Phaeton dies. But then, the Earth and everything else would have been destroyed if Jove did not put an end to it, and Phaeton.
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That's a hoot, Bellamarie. Where did you find it?
I didn't know the poem before now--never read Ovid before--but I did know the story, so I knew what was coming.
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PatH., Google, I typed in pics of Epaphus and Phaeton and this was there. I thought it was pretty funny.
https://www.google.com/search?q=pics+of+epaphus+and+phaeton&rlz=1C1RNRA_enUS507US507&espv=2&biw=1093&bih=514&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4tN26qZPLAhWGqB4KHYW0CaUQsAQIHg#imgdii=RUzReFZsyukJsM%3A%3BRUzReFZsyukJsM%3A%3BFoFEQnx1ZvhJTM%3A&imgrc=RUzReFZsyukJsM%3A
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Bellamarie, what is this? It's in the post beginning:
I took the text of Latin and translated it into English, and words of course are not EXACT, but shows there is no question these two are having a tit for tat, which leads to Phaeton questioning his lineage.
This post ends:
I am not a Latin expert and am in no way attempting to seem as one. I am only discussing the poem as I see it
15. Epaphus, at length, the creditor is to be begotten of the seed of this great Jupiter; temetque temyl joined his father in the cities, the Phaeton starts sun was equal to their courage and for whom Inachidez not taken, once the speaking voice, not yielding to him, arrogant parent Phabo;
I don't know what language this is. What does temetque temyl mean?
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Ginny, I am done responding to this topic. I have asked respectfully to agree to disagree, I have asked that we go on. I am not a Latin scholar, I am just trying to enjoy this discussion without having to defend or explain any further. You do not agree with me or the many others, so please let it go.
I will drop out of this discussion since it is nearing the end. I can not be upset by these posts any longer. I've tried in every way to make it light and humorous to go on.
Thank you to the moderators for your time and work you put into this discussion. I have appreciated and enjoyed learning about Ovid and the Metamorphoses poem. Some parts of the poem is very beautiful and some parts I found very troubling, but the poem has lasted a lifetime and beyond and will continue to be read, analyzed, and discussed centuries from now.
Ciao for now~
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Good grief started to add my two cents early today and forgot I had the window open so that I've finally finished my e-mail and facebook - do not even remember what I was going to add here - ah so - all is well and the sun will still rise in the morning...
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My goodness. I am pretty sure if I had put temetque temyl in any sentence I would expect to be asked what it meant. Sorry for the upset.
Let's look at the palace of the Sun god, then.
The beginning of Book II contains some of the most glorious lines in Roman poetry, they are almost breathtaking. And Ovid takes his time with them, lingering lovingly on how dazzling this must seem to Phaethon (and to us).
This long description is called an ekphrasis (or ecphrasis) . Initially, ekphrasis was a rhetorical term like many others taught to Greek students. Teachers of rhetoric taught ekphrasis as a way of bringing the experience of an object to a listener or reader through highly detailed descriptive writing. Ekphrasis was one of the last rhetorical exercises students were taught and the challenge was to bring the experience of a person, a place, or a thing to an audience. The true use of ekphrasis was not to simply provide astute details of an object, but to share the emotional experience and content with someone who had never encountered the work in question. The student of ekphrasis was encouraged to lend their attention not only to the qualities immediately available in an object, but to make efforts to embody qualities beyond the physical aspects of the work they were observing .http://csmt.uchicago.edu/glossary2004/ekphrasis.htm
So this label means there is more here than meets the eye. But what's here is spectacular enough. I can't think of any other passage anywhere which is so breathtaking.
Lombardo says:
The palace of the Sun soared high on its columns,
Bright with the glint of gold and fiery bronze.
The gables were capped with gleaming ivory,
And the double doors were radiant with silver.
The workmanship surpassed the material,
For Vulcan had carved there the seas that surround
The central lands, the disk of earth, and the sky
That overcharges all. The sea held dark blue gods,
Then later..
He (Phaethon) turned to move toward him, but stopped in his tracks,
Unable to bear the brightness at closer range,
Robed in purple, Phoebus sat on a throne
Brilliant with emeralds. To his right and left stood
Day and Month and Year and Century,
And the seasons stationed at equal intervals.
Young Spring was there wearing a crown of flowers;
Summer stood there nude, with a gnarled of grain;
Autumn was stained with the juice of trodden grapes
And icy Winter bristled with hair white as snow.
What a picture! What a dazzling scene. And poor Phaethon is much the outsider here.
Those symbols of the seasons, personified. Marvelous. Why is Summer nude, do you think?
And there's more, much more. Which lines in this section seemed to speak to you?
What is your impression of the world in which the Sun god lives? Does it symbolize anything?
I personally love the doors.
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That's an astute thought, Joan K:
Actually, at the risk of opening the discussion all over again, I bet I have a guess as to what the source of confusion is. According to Ginny's translation, Phaeton is "not yielding to him, (Epaphus)"
What does that mean? Yielding what? I know in some societies, precedence is all important: who is seated and served at dinner before whom etc. and go by rank. Such things may seem trivial to us, but in some cultures are sources of great pride. If P would not yield pride of place to E (went before him, say, or refusing to honor a request or order) this would be the equivalent of saying "you are lower born than me."
Yielding (ceding: literally, cedentem) the point in this case. But you make a good point. I can't think of one society or culture anywhere which toes not have status symbols. We today can relate to that. The Romans of course were big on status, but these are children, and children everywhere in every time including 2016 brag, and children challenge each other and usually neither one will yield the point to the other.
So you have a childhood argument which escalates with verbal mud slinging, some of the things children say to each other are absolutely horrendous, but they are children and don't have control of their emotions or themselves and they usually end up scuffling on the ground.
I don't know how old Phaethon is. How old do you all think he is?
I can think of modern politicians, in fact, some quite recently, hahaha, who omit the scuffling on the ground but not the rest. It's timeless behavior; how clever of Ovid to introduce it into his myth: we can relate to it today. Other myths about this omit some of the details, some don't have Clymene in it at all, etc.
It's timeless behavior. Ovid has added all these details, and they are fascinating, especially in this episode.
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Thank you, Howard, I just saw your comments, and I appreciate that. Esoecially coming from somebody who I'm sure could have translated it himself.
That's a very good point, also, about the River Styx. Phoebus Apollo was the god of prophecy also. Doesn't it make you wonder why he couldn't realize what was going to happen?
The reasons why he may not have might be quite interesting, I think.
One might say he was as impetuous as his son in deciding to give the gift without really thinking ahead as to what might happen if he did. Or? He was so caught up in the moment?
Of course fairytales are full of being granted wishes and not thinking of the consequences. Mythology is, too. Thinking of the Sibyl of Cumae who actually, when Apollo fell in love with her, asked her what it would take for her to be in love with him , and she said I want to live as many years as there are grains of sand where they were. But she neglected to ask for youth along with that, and as a consequence, had her sad end. Actually when you come to think of it she was a prophetess herself, wasn't she?
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I think this site is a good one - the site explains what a translator does - the site explains not only how and why words different from the literal translation are used but also, how authors offer their different interpretations.
Here is a short excerpt followed by the link...
OH yes, a reminder, as Ginny said, she was not translating as a 'writer' but was giving a literal translation that we read in this article, Why Translation Matters.
What exactly do we literary translators do to justify the notion that the term “writer” actually applies to us? Aren’t we simply the humble, anonymous handmaids-and-men of literature, the grateful, ever-obsequious servants of the publishing industry? In the most resounding yet decorous terms I can muster, the answer is no, for the most fundamental description of what translators do is that we write—or perhaps rewrite—in language B a work of literature originally composed in language A, hoping that readers of the second language—I mean, of course, readers of the translation—will perceive the text, emotionally and artistically, in a manner that parallels and corresponds to the aesthetic experience of its first readers. This is the translator’s grand ambition. Good translations approach that purpose. Bad translations never leave the starting line.
Read more: http://www.wordswithoutborders.org/article/from-why-translation-matters#ixzz41DkpSbuU
We have read on many sites how writers cannot leave themselves and their time in history behind - thus we have different interpretations of the same stories - so again, there is no right and wrong - and to fault an authority is not a personal attack, it is simply saying that your sensibilities are closer to writer A versus writer B and all writers are offering an interpretation rather than a literal translation.
We are adding to the understanding of these stories, rather than looking for a group approval - there is evidently no definitive translation among the many available published 'writers' who translate Ovid - To acknowledge differences between us, it is really not a case of 'agreeing to disagree' because, that connotes a disagreement with some in the group rather than, a disagreement with the 'writer' we choose - we do not need to look for the groups official permission and approval - We add our thoughts and what we deduce. We offer an expert as our backup authority where needed - We do not have to prove and reprove our choice of 'writer' so that our chose prevails as 'the' authority, agreed upon by the group so that we can feel secure - we are not in question - again, what is in question is the 'writer' we choose and how closely the writer adheres to the literal translation.
I Love how the word 'agency' is being used so often today to describe our state of belief, values, behavior and action in life as operating from within, expressed as our hum, song, noise, buzz, thrum, busyness, our state of being independent yet, within the framework of society.
All to say when we disagree with an authority - our agency in not in question - in tact is our respect for each other, however we may disagree with the authority we each choose.
After reading the web link about the work of translators, I am seeing that Ovid was a 'writer' and that would explain why his sharing of some of the stories is a bit different from other ancient writers.
This is so good - right up my alley ;) since I have latched onto the concept that one of the values of myths is for the exploration of our inner life - delving into what we had no words to explain - or seeing a characteristic played out in a myth. The myth then offers us meaning and a greater understanding of ourselves.
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aha - I cannot believe this - OK because of the exploration between one 'writer' and the literal translation - back and forth to show the correctness of each - I have a new appreciation for Phaeton's dilemma.
First of all, for me all the platitudes about harmony versus being right and all the junk we have been told why we should not strongly disagree - out the window - because, what I saw, there is another deeper issue that is the real issue rather than the back and forth that is the tug over what should be the 'correct' viewpoint. Therefore look for the deeper issue.
The deeper issue that I see was over literary authority. Which authority is doing the better job of telling the story. From the web site about translations, both authorities are valid. The problem is how a particular authority's views square themselves with our life experiences, skills, values, beliefs - how we hum and thrum and therefore, whom we can accept as an authority - of course, if you have years of skill translating then you really are the authority, which does not make the 'writer' wrong, only an authority that does not fit. And so, it appears there was a consensus desired, for a winning authority, that was the outcome of measuring a 'writer' to how close he came to the literal translation.
Earlier as we discussed Ovid, we would never have been imagined the question as an issue. Now we know it can make a difference - And we know, we do not have to disagree since both the writer and the literal have been given new value. As a result of this discussion, this group now knows how to look at a translation and how to measure 'writers', comparing them to each other and then to the literal translation.
The result for me of seeing the deeper issue as one of authority, opened my eyes to see Phaeton from a new perspective. I see the story not so much that he is taunted by his friend but think, if you were all of a sudden told you were adopted you would want to know more about your birth dad. Not only that but, as most teen or young boys feel unsure and questioning themselves against the man they admired from childhood and they are not yet feeling as powerful as they would like, they would think, maybe I'm made closer to my 'real' dad rather than my adopted dad. And, if not and they know their 'real' dad is a powerful guy, they would want to claim some of that. So they think, first I have to prove to myself that I have some of the greatness of my 'real' dad and I am not really just the son of this adopted dad.
So off he goes to measure himself with his 'real' dad. Still not sure if he measures up to his own idea of how he should feel he decides to take on one of the daring deeds that his dad performs with ease every day.
I can see Phaeton questioning his power - his agency - his self-knowledge - comparing it to both dads to determine for himself what is true or not because, if his mother did keep this from him than he is in the awkward position of ever trusting his mother again, and that hurts. That is not what he expected to have to face this early in his life - he still needs a mother - So, is his weakness while handling the chariot because he ruminated over how the proof he was looking for was cutting him off from the trust he had in his mother.
I think the tit for tat he had with the friend was nothing in comparison to the big question he had to be having within himself. This was bigger than childhood school yard baiting - this was about who he believed, not what he was told, but who he believed was his father based on seeing characteristics of one or the other in himself and then, having to acknowledge if the sun really was his dad then he was no longer able to trust his mom's word.
It all comes down to the word - the authority of the word - just as the authority of the word is at question as to the translation of the story.
Phaeton's loss of control suggests to me some questions are so big, an outside force keeps us from ourselves because, we cannot handle the dilemma with which we are faced - That dilemma is so great we would take others down with us if we continued. It is not so much that Phaeton dies as what he represents, the dilemma dies, the choices he would have to make was stopped. Those of us hearing, reading the story are offered no instruction - no teaching how to handle our future if we have a choice that would ravage and lay waste our heart and soul. This powerful god Zeus/Jupiter leaves us to fathom such a choice.
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"I don't know how old Phaethon is. How old do you all think he is?" 18?
BARB: interesting description of a translators job. I'd say my translator (Lombardo) has done a good job. Although some of Ovid's writing is so vivid, it might come through any translation.
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BARB: "We have read on many sites how writers cannot leave themselves and their time in history behind - thus we have different interpretations of the same stories - so again, there is no right and wrong .."
This is always an important point when dealing with material from a different culture or time. We are all prisoners of our own time and place. We Sociologists have a saying: the fish cannot see the water they swim in. In order to see it, we have to get out of it and look back.
this is one of the values of going to a different time and place, either physically, or through books. what does reading Ovid tell us about not only ancient Roman society, but, reading it and looking back, about our own?
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Thinking about my own question: what does reading Ovid tell us about OUR society? without judging which is better or worse?
No I cant leave the judging out of it. Our view of women IS better. But what do they do better? the sense of wonder? Have we seen too many beautiful palaces in bad movies to be able to see them any more?
The sense of wondering why things are what they are? Do we ask what amber is? We leave those question to a few who become scientists, and give answers too complicated for most of us to understand (or so we think), so we can go on taking amber for granted and not wonder if it's women's tears?
I'm babbling!
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"what does reading Ovid tell us about OUR society? without judging which is better or worse?"
Not sure what Ovid tells me about our society but what I am learning is that hidden in a story is often a greater lesson that does not show itself easily on the surface - or maybe it is because these stories fit many situations.
I shouldn't be shocked but it is always an eye opener to read how many human events have a similar reaction although, we live thousands of years apart in different cultures with different values and traditions.
I'm thinking the action we take is where we see the differences where as an emotional reaction is from our feeling nature - although, thinking a bit, I can see how a culture would view various events through the lens of their culture and that would affect their emotional reaction -
hmm sounds more like a philosophical discussion doesn't it. Hmm maybe that is what we do here - we share from different viewpoints therefore we can learn from each other. hmm
found this link that is focused on this very question.
http://www.cyc-net.org/features/viewpoints/viewpoint-150930.html
As to the judging part - it is too easy isn't it to judge based on our view of something without resorting to our knee jerk reaction but rather to see what we are judging as an opportunity to ask questions and find the rational for what we see as different - or am I describing being judgmental which is a bit different that straight up judging - I guess there must be an agreed upon measurement for judging to take place.
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Gee what wonderful thoughts. That's a super article, Barbara, on translations and it goes a long way to explain why there are so many, and every year a new one. I've forgotten how many translations there are of the Iliad, but there are an incredible number. You'd think that nobody would ever have anything to say, new, wouldn't you? But different cultures and times call for different idioms and different ways of communicating what's happening. That last translation by Lombardo and Fagles of the Aeneid proves this once and for all. Two learned men, two completely different takes, both accurate. That's not easy to do.
And even in a literal translation the translator can make choices. They may not be earthshaking but they do represent the translator.
I saw this the other day and thought it pertained to what we're talking about. This pertains to plays of Shakespeare on ancient themes and people:
"All plays about historical events deal both with the past and with the present. Anachronism is thus, in one form or another, the necessary condition of their being. Not even the most learned historian could avoid it, because the past is only partly knowable, because we cannot wholly detach ourselves from our own time, and because any presentation of the past in contemporary language will involve accommodations. " Shakespeare and the Uses of Antiquity: An Introductory Essay" by Michelle Martindale
And I loved your musing on the themes in the Phaethon story, they are all there and they are not strange to us in 2016 or anybody else. Sort of Universal themes.
Joan K, if that's babbling I wish I could do it, how beautifully you and Barbara write!
Have we seen too many beautiful palaces in bad movies to be able to see them any more I wonder if that's the only place most of us can see them now. What a thought!
What an interesting thought. That set me off thinking about Downton Abbey for some reason. I love the provocative ideas and musings that this group comes up with as a whole. Ovid was doing sort of a movie himself here in the opening lines of the palace description, because his introduction to the Palace of the Sun God was a stock description, the tall pillars, the gold roof, of what the ancients expected as their "movie" version of a great palace. They would have been at home and very familiar with it just as we are Downton Abbey, even if we've never actually lived that lifestyle, we can fancy ourselves doing it and Brideshead, too.
I go to Biltmore House a lot and inevitably somebody will say Oh I couldn't live here, it's too big, it's too...whatever, and you want turn around and say are you nuts? hahahaa But I do know what they mean. But a child would make plans where he'd put his toys and who would live there with him, children are so much freer, (and honest) . :)
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It seems to me, and I might be wrong, that the themes running through this so far are themes we can all relate to.
A child (or 70 year old for that matter) wanting to know his ancestry. The theme of order out of chaos. At first we had the creation, order out of chaos. Then we had the 4 Ages starting with order, then disintegrating into chaos. Then we had the Flood, chaos, and a new beginning. We have Jupiter at the head of a Pantheon of gods, who seem to be fallible in their decisions and desires. So in a way is the leadership itself here causing the chaos instead of harmony and order? And what does that mean? It's widely felt this description of the Palace of the Sun God is allegorical. In what way?
Enter the Sun God, living a bit less humbly than he does in the Jimmy Dean Sausage commercials on TV in 2016.
The Palace of the Sun God. seems to me a very orderly place. Time itself, the Hours, the Days, the Weeks, the Months, the Years, the Centuries, all stand in their proper place. The Hours are personified. All these elements wait in their proper places and order around the throne for the Sun King, who sets the world in motion. Everything is in harmony as it should be.
The doors seem to represent this. The fantastically wrought doors with the signs of the zodiac on the right and the left. The gigantic doors of the Temple of Apollo were described by Propertius and Vergil (in the latter's case, imaginary temple), they are almost a trope. The modern visitor to Rome today can get an idea of the ancient idea of door splendor by looking at those of St. Peters. . And the doors of the Senate which stood in Ovid's time are now on St. John of Lateran, I believe it is. And for spectacular doors how about the East doors, or Gates of Paradise, by Lorenzo Ghiberti in Florence? (http://www.bugbog.com/wp-content/uploads/florence-italy-duomo-baptistry-doors-2-900.jpg). And just in case anybody misses how dazzling these doors ARE, Ovid encases them in the Golden Line Pat mentioned earlier. And over it all the Sun God. Who has eyes that "see all."
Apparently not, however, in the case of his son. Why not? He admits his daily trek is dangerous, he admits it scares even him, so why on earth would he allow this boy to try?
All is in order, however, with this ancient divinity when enters Phaethon, who does not belong, and who, it's clear, can bring about chaos and destruction again.
I wonder what Ovid is saying here about his recurrent theme of order followed yet again by chaos and disorder. Is he saying that Augustus now has brought about order but it won't take too much to ruin it? Is he actually hinting that a descendant of Augustus could bring down the new Empire (or Principate as Augustus liked to term it) unless Augustus stops him?
Phoebus tries to take back the wish. According to Anderson this is a "folktale motif of the 'fatal gift.'" This reminds me so much of The Monkey's Paw and another wish (3 of them) granted. I always thought that was the scariest thing I ever read.
He can't take it back because he swore on the River Styx. What possessed him, do you think? Lost his head? Anderson's commentary says they are "Both Foolish." Ovid seems to dwell on Phoebus's all seeing and all knowing. Do you feel, as some commentators do, that "we may infer that Ovid is poking fun at the god's ignorance and preparing for foolish, fatal, "generosity?"
The boy asked for a sign. Give him the crown or come on down and talk to Epaphus, why couldn't he stop this when he had the chance?
Have YOU ever made a decision you regretted? IS this only hindsight? Even IF Phaethon had followed orders would this have been inevitable? And if so who is the most to blame here? And why?
What do you think about any or all of this?
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I am still reading along, but behind in my reading. For some reason, although my translation (prose rather than poem) is easy to read, it does not excite me. I actually think I had more "fun" translating in Latin class than reading this one. What interests me most is reading all the very interesting "takes" on the stories in this discussion.
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That's the joy of a book discussion.
But you'd have a wonderful time translating this buzzard. It's extremely tricky Latin, almost shape shifting. Makes you appreciate Ovid again, in a different way. Perhaps now that we know Book I we should try it someday in a future class. It was mega fun.
In fact I sort of wished for a consortium of Latin students opinions on that last one, their comments would have been invaluable. Where, for instance, to put "linen clad?" There are two choices, both accurate. That alone took quite a bit of thought. I ended up plumping for Io, either choice would have been accurate, the worshipers like the worshipers or priests of Isis or Io herself like the statues of Isis both in fine linen as befits the occasion. I went with Io, I see most don't, their own personal tribute to Ovid's fondness for a Golden Line structure and their knowledge of the priests of Isis and that Io was alive...but a little personal pat on the back from me, (albeit unnecessary) from Io's having suffered at the hands of the discussion, or Juno's, whichever. :) I rather imagine in the finished polished official version I might have reverted to linen clad worshipers.
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I just finished reading up to Book II: p.301-328. I may actually be ahead of you. Where are we now?
Jupiter's warnings and fears are quite palpable. The description if the chariot ride itself is amazing and leaves me with several questions and thoughts to look into.
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Frybabe you got in here between Ginny's last post and my thoughts as a result of her post... yes, the chariot ride is amazing isn't it. I have thoughts on it but let me get to the thoughts I have with Ginny's post...
Ginny my thought is that if you know the value of linen than that is when you decide who is going to wear linen. Granted linen is one of the oldest woven fabrics, made from reeds however, knowing the rocky nature of Greece where these stories were before Rome, there would be less material to make linen and far more sheep to make wool - I am betting the average wore anything from a sheeps skin to a felted version of wool to finally a thread of wool made into cloth far more than linen. And so it makes sense than that linen would be reserved for the high ranking members of society and to the gods.
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Frybabe never having been to Greece and only to northern Italy to see what a sunrise looks like - from reading about the work of the sun god - I'm envisioning the sunrise all golden, sparkling in yellow and oranges.
Funny to me because here where I live I've often been up to see the sun rise and I live on the edge of the top of a mesa so there is a huge drop more obvious across the street from me in the acres of school yard that is the middle school - the elementary school is adjacent but firmly on top of the Mesa then this monster hill and the track and field, softball diamonds of which there are two, running area to practice things like throwing the javelin and a swimming pool - yep, acres - anyhow because of where my house is situated the morning sun rising on the horizon is easy to see.
We do not have a lengthy morning or evening - the sun rises and sets rather quickly but the fun part is when the sun rises there is no golden anything - in winter it may be a deep burnt orange but for the rest of the year it rises red - sometimes a deeper red but a strong red - in fact I still smile and think how to write about it - because all the east facing windows on houses are blood red broken into puddles by the muntins or grilles - where as the back of the houses are still holding the night shade in blues and purples.
So any chariot riding being done was done on the other side of the curvature of the earth because the sun is a volcanic fire that the idea of any manlike god pulling is beyond belief - he would be a cinder in two seconds flat. Now to liken the sun to the fire's of hell - yep, that you can picture when we see the sunrise.
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Ginny your posts are so filled with themes that have my head in a whirl thinking on them - two that hit me -
recurrent theme of order followed yet again by chaos and disorder.
I'm thinking it is our old thinking - before the math showing us how chaos works that has us imagine it as nothing but a mess - as if order is the preferred state - the definition of chaos helps me see chaos in the light that many of our younger adults see it -
A. Behavior so unpredictable as to appear random, owing to great sensitivity to small changes in conditions.
B. The formless matter supposed to have existed before the creation of the universe.
Now we have math explaining and using the random principle - remember, it was the big news how collage students, some 15 or so years ago using the Randomness Theory were beating the house in Vegas and picked up by the police although, in court they were exonerated. Random chain reaction is part of the math invented and discovered for the Manhattan project.
We also have the Butterfly theory coming from this as a small change because of the flap of its wings is the change in conditions that affects weather.
As to formless matter - we read now how most see new thoughts and new inventions and birth of a human as well as the birth of an idea starting from formless matter.
Albert Einstein Three Rules of Work: Out of clutter find simplicity; From discord find harmony; In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.
Carl Jung: In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order.
Not sure if Ovid had any idea that including Chaos in his storytelling was opening the reader/listener to the theories of chaos and randomness however, I'm thinking he must have been wise enough to see how chaos seems to be the start of something. Or maybe he was just moaning in verse that things always disintegrated into chaos ;)
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The other that hit me from your post -
"we may infer that Ovid is poking fun at the god's ignorance and preparing for foolish, fatal, "generosity?"
The boy asked for a sign. Give him the crown or come on down and talk to Epaphus, why couldn't he stop this when he had the chance?
Not sure how poking in fun the question since so many of us still ask that question of the God we in the west believe is all powerful and all knowing. How could such a God permit the Holocaust is one that I often hear - and when there is a senseless death of a child we hear folks screaming upwards towards the heavens, imploring, shaking their fist, cursing - "Why? Why? Oh God, Why"
I guess we all have a picture of how and when someone is supposed to die - which is our picture and we just are not this all powerful God - ah so... maybe it is the theory of randomness and not God at all???!!?
Of course asking a god to stop a certain behavior gets us into the whole discussion of free will, luck and predestination. Shoot, no easy answers are there...
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Frybabe, we are actually now discussing the Palace of the Sun God, are you reading Lombardo? If so it's lines somewhere around 60 or so in Chapter II? We've gone on so we can enjoy the Phaethon story.
But you can ask or make any point about the chariot ride you like, since some have talked about the end. We're moving slowly but nothing is off limits.
On the linen, yes, good point, Barbara, that's exactly the choice one needs to make in that translation.
Barbara, if the Palace of the Sun God is supposedly an allegory, what do you think is being symbolized there?
Great thoughts on the chaos/ order theme. More on that and Anderson's "foolish sun god foolish son of the son god and chaos/ order," later on. You've brought up lots to think about.
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'It's extremely tricky Latin, almost shape shifting.' Well! Thanks for that Ginny. That confirms my suspicion. Ovid is having a wonderful time with these old myths in making them seem relevant to the times. And perhaps, as Barb has pointed out, many readers of Ovids Metamorhoses did find self-knowledge in the book, much as Freud's readers, two thousand years later find in his amazing book: The Interpretation of Dreams.
From our wonderful tale: 'Now she (Io) is a goddess of high renown, and lined-clad worshippers throng her shrines. She had a son Epaphus...
I took that to mean that it was the smart set that hung about Io's shrines. Or, as Barb put it, 'the high ranking members of society'. And Epaphus heard the talk. Some of it was about Clymene, whose reputation was taking a beating. A scandal? Ovid seems to be hinting at it. Clymene at last is not metamorphised as all nice girls are when they are ravished by the gods.
It's been suggested that Phaethon's adventure is a tragedy. And he did come to a terrible end. But I see it more as a farce following all that bragging and boasting by two young men about their heavenly fathers. That set the tone for the rest of the story.
And the stories get even better, say you? I'm off to learn some Latin, and more about these Romans.
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Barb, good points about the linen.
Ginny, mine is the A. S. Kline translation. It has only just now gotten interesting. Here is why.
First off there is Lucifer, the morning star. Okay, that explains the new TV show where the main character is Lucifer Morningstar. I didn't know Lucifer was Greek/Roman myth, and I certainly never associated him with a star. So here is the scoop. Lucifer means light-bearer or morning star (so the TV character's name is actually redundant) and is associated with the planet Venus. Some interesting reading that point out that Lucifer and the Devil are two different entities entirely. Like many, I thought they were different names for the same entity. http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml What I was looking for was something way before the bible, and in the second article in the last paragraphs, I see that Zoroastrian allegories included Mithras conquering Venus. I suppose the Zoroastrians had their own name for Venus. All in all, I think Lucifer would be a more appropirate name for Venus now that we know what kind of atmosphere and volcanic surface it has.
I was quite taken with the heart wrenching pleas of Jupiter to try and disquade Phaethon from taking the chariot for a spin and his advise to him when he insisted on going. When Phaethon loses control, Ovid's discription of the destruction caused to earth and the seas reminds me of what a comet might do should one hit our fair planet. Scary stuff, that.
Did anyone notice, or is translated differently in other texts, where Jupiter smeared stuff on Phaeton's face to protect him from the heat and flame? What did the ancients know of flame retardants and sun screens way back then?
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FRYBABE: I didn't notice that. how interesting. I'll bet such smart people in that hot climate would have found some herb that acted like sunscreen.
Random thought: I wonder how often there were thunderstorms in Rome? Given the association of thunderbolts with angry gods, the Romans must have been terrified of them.
(I've wondered about that ever since I heard that one of the philosophers (I forget who) said he only made love to his wife when there was a thunderstorm (I didn't learn why. If he lived here in LA, he'd get no joy: we only have two a year. Maybe it was Cicero, and that's why he's so scowly).
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Phaethon.jpg)
The Fall of Phaethon by Sebastiano Ricci, 1703-04, Belluno
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
For Your Consideration:
“Week” Four: Phaethon!
Bk I:747-764 Phaethon’s parentage
Bk I:765-779 Phaethon sets out for the Palace of the Sun
Bk II:1-30 The Palace of the Sun
Bk II:31-48 Phaethon and his father
What Do You Think?
1. Are there any themes which appear in the beginning of the Phaethon story while it's still in Book I which could happen today?
2. Why is Clymene angry?
3. Ovid's description of the Palace of the Sun God is considered an ekphrasis (or ecphrasis) a long detailed description which stands as a symbol or allegory for something else. What do you think it might stand for?
4. We in 2016 do a lot of things better than past ages. But what do they do better? the sense of wonder? Have we seen too many beautiful palaces in bad movies to be able to see them any more? (Joan K)
5. How many Universal themes can we see in the story of Phaethon which are alive and well today?
6. According to W.S. Anderson the Phaethon story contains is a "folktale motif of the 'fatal gift.'" Who do you fault most in the giving of this gift, Apollo who sees all or Phaethon? If Apollo is all seeing and all knowing and is the god of prophesy on top of it, how do you explain his mistake in giving the chariot?
Former Questions, Still up for Grabs:
1. What to you is the saddest thing in the Io story?
2. This story is full of beautiful descriptions. Which lines particularly struck you? Do they interfere with the plot line?
3. What effect do the flashback elements and the interruption of the Pan and Syrinx have on the reader's feelings for Io?
4. What would you say is the tone of the Io story?
5. This is quite a story, it has two metamorphoses and two aetiological myths in it. Which one is the most important?
6. What might Io's struggles to communicate symbolize in our own time?
7. Who actually has the last word in this section?
8. What's your impression of Io's father?
9. If you had to choose between being Io or Daphne, which one would you choose? Why?
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
Thank you, Barbara.
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I remember being in an ancient history class at least 25 to 30 years ago, reading about the year 500 AD and after - it was believed the sky was as if a bowl and when it rained it was thought it sprang a leak so that heavy rain was very frightening when believing the bowl was leaking - lightening they saw as the bowl cracking. If the bowl broke there would be a deluge that would be as we have feared a nuclear disaster wiping us off the face of the map. I remember the discussion than being how the Noah flood fit or created that belief.
Could be an herb but for sure mud - many archaeologists accounts talk about indigenous people coating themselves with mud and clay, some of it white - which protected them from the sun.
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Jonathan: And the stories get even better, say you?
Oh heavens, yes. Why is the white flower of spring called a narcissus? Why does an echo only answer? Why do we have seasons? Why is the mulberry red when ripe? Why are the sands of Sardis gold? Who is the Weeping Rock in Turkey? What is a Niobid painter? What was so bad about Medea?
There's a whole world here if we want to go on and we can pick and choose what we'd like, we need not read all 15 books if you are all interested to go on a bit, we can vote on the selections?
And he did come to a terrible end. But I see it more as a farce following all that bragging and boasting by two young men about their heavenly fathers. That set the tone for the rest of the story.
There were many versions of the Phaethon story before Ovid's. That's an interesting point. Wonder why he put that in here? Not all the versions are like this one.
First off there is Lucifer, the morning star. I can't see the word Lucifer (which means literally "light bringing,") without thinking of the biography of Custer a few years ago titled Son of the Morning Star. Have any of you read it?
Maybe it was Cicero, and that's why he's so scowly). Well he divorced his long term wife and took on a trophy wife in his old age and it didn't work out, so maybe he had more to scowl about than trying to lead Rome. hahahaa He's still standing in front of the Hall of Justice, tho, in Rome, today: (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/cicerohallofjusticefar.jpg) The great Hall is sinking under its own weight.
Could be an herb but for sure mud - Anderson addresses this putting on of medicamine thus: "This word, which Cicero used once in a speech, became poetic after Ovid, who employed it eighteen times, even in the title of one of his works. Here, he refers to some salve that would make the boy immune to the heat of the sun. In earlier literature, we hear of mortals being anointed with ambrosia, but that is to render them immortal."
Way back there some of us were talking about the death of Phaethon. I think Howard mentioned Cygnus.
I was shocked myself at Jupiter's thunderbolt. Was there no other way to stop Phaethon but kill him? That seems a bit extreme to me. What does that say about Jupiter and why did Ovid put this in here?
It's interesting to see what of the Phaethon story is Ovid's, and what came before. I'd like to come back to Cygnus. But I thought you might like to see how many others handled this story of Phaethon and how it differed:
This is from W.S. Anderson:
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/DeathofPhaethonA.jpg)
So this treatment of Phaethon is pure Ovid, apparently. We need to ask what we get out of his deliberate changes.
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What Helios gives, Zeus takes... could it be another example of tit for tat - this time among the gods - who is top dog
Talk about Chaos as in creating the unexpected - disorder - confusion - behavior so unpredictable as to appear random - that seems to be the label for these gods. If they are not turning someone into a cow they are having them fall from the sky to their death or flooding the known world wiping out most of humanity - sheesh... I guess like Dowager Countess of Grantham states, "Sometimes it's good to rule by fear."
They sure fit your thought on thunderbolts Joan - angry gods and the fear in Rome of thunder. I do not think we have yet read of a loving act by any of these gods - no, 'bring me the children', among this lot.
I can see a case now for the Stoics so early in the history of humankind - if there is no personal control over emotions and there is the tiny god called cupid seemingly indiscriminately darting folks, about the only thing left is to be unmoved by impulse, rationally considering each action with the mantra, "Whatever happens will happen".
With these gods the Stoics make perfect sense - that man's problem is - he resists the unavoidable outcomes of fate, does not recognize the inherent good in it, and possesses interests contrary to it.
Ha I guess I am a Stoic and did not realize it - because the idea of expecting another behavior from these gods never crossed my mind - I've been so busy attempting to find the good or at least the rational.
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I just noticed question 3. the description of the Palace of the Sun is an allegory for something else? No idea! It does seem to look as if they think the sun is responsible for time, with all those hours and seasons.
What do the rest of you think?
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Well personally I see the theme of Augustus and Ovid's digs at him running throughout the whole so far. Augustus has restored order like a god, (kind of reminds you of Cassius's line in Shakespeare's Julius Caesar: "why man, he doth bestride the world like a Colossus..." ). But that was Julius Caesar. In Augustus's case, the restoration to order is fragile, he keeps reminding us it's fragile, and liable to fail, (especially in the hands of an heir of Augustus). And in the fall of Phaethon it really almost did create permanent Chaos again.
It's funny I don't see any struggle for power here. Jupiter is it. There IS no struggle, all the gods know their places, he's it, the pantheon of gods are afraid to stand against him, just like the Senate was against Augustus: yes men, all. The ancient reader would have known this, too. However THIS Jupiter is fearsome perhaps because of his lack of judgment whereas in Greek mythology he's the great judge and a bit more temperate, affairs aside, that's something the male ordered Roman society would have understood and probably not condemned.
But boy does he fly off the handle here, destroying an entire world because one man dissed him at dinner, without trying to see if there were any who were worth saving. And here he comes again.
And here the scorched earth appeals to him, I liked her reasoning in Lombardo. If you don't care about me, the earth, after all I've done, bring out the lightning bolts, but what has your brother Neptune, god of the sea, done to deserve this? And think of your own residence, it's smoking, did you not consider that? That this could touch YOU? Take heed! You're about to burn your own mansions to cinders.
So it looks to me as if Jupiter is more moved by the possibility of its hurting him than anything else.
The descriptions here of the effects of Phaethon are absolutely stunning.
As you read them, which one is your favorite, which description? Can you share some of the lines here?
There have been some wonderful works of art on this as the constellations burn, I have two I'd like to share once the Latin classes get going this morning, they are staggeringly fine.
I love this bit. As a further aside, do you know anything about driving horses? My blacksmith told me years ago that it was much more dangerous than riding. He had given up riding because he felt his balance was not reliable, but in driving, forget the old Westerns where the driver jumps down on the yoke of the run away horses and works his way forward?
That's a cowboy movie. In real life usually death results if the horses get their heads. If you've ever been ON a runaway horse you know what happens, they are unstoppable. Hauling on the reins does not work. Turning them in a circle does not only not work, it can turn the horse over. Very very dangerous. One wonders again why the father agreed to "anything." as a gift. Neither father nor son considered the consequences in this great moment of emotion?
What are your thoughts this dramatic morning with run away horses and flames everywhere?
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Just can't resist stealing a second to come back in here and say that with all of the art over centuries about Phaethon I have three pieces I really like and here are two of them.
These both depict the fall of Phaethon and the coming to life of the constellations as Ovid described into their figurative beings, which itself is remarkable.
The first is by John Singer Sargent: (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/PhaethonJohnSingerSargeant.jpg)
Isn't that a beautiful thing? Here you can clearly see the different ones, how many can you identify?
And the second is by Gustave Moreau:
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/PhaethonGustaveMoreau.jpg)
I have a big poster of the Moreau I like to put up in face to face classes but the students are usually appalled, they hate it: what IS that they say? This one is a little harder to see the figures.
I like them both, particularly the Sargent (I can never figure out how to spell his name Sargeant or Sargent).
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Haven't been around for a few days. This is such a good discussion, and I have lots to say, but a family flap has been keeping me away from the computer
Frybabe, see if your library has Lombardo--his good poetry might hook you.
Bellamarie, I enjoyed talking to you here. See you in another discussion.
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Those are gorgeous paintings, Ginny. In the Sargeant, at the top left on the edge of the road, you can see part of Libra, the scales of justice. Those round things are the pans of the scales. Then comes Scorpio, the scorpion; he's almost caught Pheathon's foot in a claw. Then Sagittarius, the archer. He's a man here; he's usually a centaur. Finally, Capricorn, the goat.
The Moreau starts with Leo the lion (that's me) then Virgo, the virgin, who is also Astraea, the goddess of justice who fled the earth in the Iron Age. Libra is the next Zodiac constellation, but instead we have a splendid dragon, probably Draco.
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They have one translated by somebody named Melville.
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Curious and curiouser - ever since back a couple of days ago when Frybabe mentioned Zoroastrians I knew something about them but had no idea how far back in time they go - about 5000 years before Ovid - and their influence on all monolithic religions is amazing.
It was the Prophet Zoroaster who came up with night and day representing dualism with light being good and dark denoting evil. Zoroastrianism includes a battle between good and evil.
This is a bit deep but the influence of Zoroastrianism on Greek philosophers is astounding -
http://zoroastrianheritage.blogspot.com/2011/04/zoroastrian-influence-on-greek.html
And get this - the Olympic flame is straight out of Zoroastrian's religion - fabulous photos included in this site.
http://heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/olympicflame/index.htm
These quoted from the site caught my attention: "The symbolism of the eternal flame in Zoroastrianism can be compared to the symbolism of the Olympic flame - it symbolizes core ethical values and principles"... "The ancient Olympic games honoured the chief of the Olympian gods Zeus, who had a temple dedicated to him at Olympia. Fires were lit at his temple as well as the temple dedicated to his wife and sister, Hera.
An ever-burning fire used to burn at the altar of hestia, the goddess and guardian of fire, whose temple was also located in Olympia.
The fire altars of Zeus and Hera were open air altars while the fire altar of Hestia was indoors in a Prytaneum. The Prytaneum was also used for the large banquets held in honour of the athletes at the end of the games."
And another jaw dropper - I sorta remember this from my grade school days but with all the hoopla surrounding Christmas and 3 Kings Day cake I forgot - Early Christian writers said the Magi were Zoroastrian priests (see Catholic Bible). Not a single early Church writer calls the Magi "kings".
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Wow and here is a gold mine of online books by a Professor from Durham University in the UK who specializes in ancient history
https://www.academia.edu/202379/Persian_Cosmos_and_Greek_Philosophy_Platos_Associates_and_the_Zoroastrian_Magoi.
And his site has book after book that can be downloaded...
https://durham.academia.edu/phorky
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Pat, you've got a sharp eye! It's quite hard for me to see anything in the Moreau! :)
Barbara, it's amazing, isn't it, the things that turn up in a discussion, like a Pandora's Box!
I was really taken with the path the father describes he has to run and the difficulties of it. Then the pitiful father tries to scare Phaethon with a description of what might happen and does with the sky. Phaethon is not listening and actually jumps into the chariot.
Apparently Ovid is saying that the the rotation of the sky pulls on the sun and the stars, and the Sun god has to go against that. . I don't know enough about the science involved here but it sounds like it's quite an arduous task. I have a feeling it would be meaningful to know but I don't. But Phaethon is ready to go. What a sad commentary on youth and age. The young boy is not listening to the one person who can do this task, even Jupiter can't do it.
The string of disasters is incredible. The metamorphoses are all over the place. Was there one that resounded with you? The Latin is mirroring the chaos, it's all over the place, too. I was struck by the Nile going dry and retreating to hide its source. That was not found till the 19th century according to Anderson, was Ovid saying the Nile flows backwards?
And so Jupiter hurls a thunderbolt and breaks up the chariot and Phaethon falls, aflame, through the air to the earth, leaving a trail, it sounds like he has become a comet. Clymene doesn't get to bury her son as she should, so she wanders, looking for him, finally finding the bones, and we have the last Metamorphoses of this section, the mourning sisters turning into trees and the amber, and Cygnus. Trees again. With Daphne they were protection, what are they now? I don't "get" the reason for these two last metamorphoses, any ideas?
What sense does it make to have these last two metamorphoses? I was struck by Howard's thoughts way back there on this:
Once again, Ovid describes a god made in mankind's image.
Now THAT is an interesting thought!
Ovid speaks movingly of the grief of Phaeton's mother, but, mocks the mourning of his sisters, the Heliades, who though they lament no less than their mother, give “tears and other useless tributes to the dead..., calling pitifully/Day and night on Phaethon, who would never hear them,....Is this just a manifestation of cold-hearted Stoicism? Then the sisters' mourning results, strangely, in another metamorphosis, when they are sealed into trees that drip amber “To be be worn one day by the brides of Rome.”
Equally strange is the fate of Phaethon's cousin, Cygnus, who, while mourning is turned into a swan at the site of the poplars that were Phaethon's weeping sisters. Sad story, but one struggles to find the motivation for it. Perhaps Ovid recited the tales of the Heliades and Cygnus for no other reason than that they were metamorphoses were already known to his readers and listeners.
I agree and that's the best idea I've heard so far. Anybody else think of something? We're so used to morals at the end of tales, when we don't have one (or do we?) we founder.
And Jonathan is seeing humor. That's really interesting, because he's usually right.
Joan K and Frybabe are thinking about our own earth and what might happen if a comet hit it. Howard mentions the eruption of a volcano, which is certainly present. We've got chaos again.
So is there a moral here? A lesson?
What did you think of the Sun's speech? Who is he blaming for this disaster? Who should he blame? What does he seem to think about Jupiter's actions?
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We may be seeing the words and thinking they are a story because we do not know the references - seems the Greeks and the Romans used Swans to signify a Happy Death -
Poplars were the symbol for Sabazius worshiped in Athens in the 5th Century BC - worshiping ritual included the god's annual death in the grain fields, with the participants of this ritual weeping for him.
The snake was an important Sabazius symbol and he wore a crown with two snakes raising their heads. Music was part of the ritual particularly the flute and castanets that accompanied exotic dancers.
The cult of Sabazius flourished in Athens even during the Roman period and was later introduced into Rome and further into Europe.
So we have dead sisters whose tears turn to amber, that nearby is the swan which indicates a Happy Death - they become Poplar trees, symbol for the god of grain fields and the trees weep for the annual death of the grain fields.
Evidently when the Ethiopians tell this tale Phaeton fell into the legendary river Eridanus thought to be the river Po located near the end of the Amber trail. According to the Ethiopians, he was found by the river nymphs after he was scorched black - the river nymphs mourn him and bury him whose tears also turn to amber found at the base of the river and evidently the river nymphs have his children which explains the black skin of Ethiopians.
Since this is all about gods I can only imagine these stories as pie in the sky explanations for the world during the time of Ovid before science, archaeology etc. explained what were the mysteries of the universe. Story tellers probably started these tales as a way to settle or teach or bring magical entertainment in the tents or caves or traveler's oasis just as Clement Clark Moore told his magical tale.
Today we know that reindeer live north and are not as magical as unicorns nor beast of burdens like oxen however they do fly and we buy it - about the only change that needs some explaining is wearing a cap and kerchief to bed. The concept of fireplace heat not being similar to whole house furnace heat, the idea of wearing caps and kerchiefs would not cross our minds - and so I wonder how many references known to the people over 2000 years ago are lost on us.
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I imagine quite a few are lost on us, that's the joy and value of a book club. Thank you for that thought.
seems the Greeks and the Romans used Swans to signify a Happy Death
I didn't know this, do you have a Roman source for this? I am not thinking Phaethon's is a happy death by any standards. The Greeks and Romans were very big on the proper burial of a person, and it seems Jupiter even almost kept his mother from burying him with due obsequies. She did right by him, the best she could, his father sulked and did not participate. Took it out on the horses. Had she not found him, that would essentially have condemned his soul or shade to a very unhappy afterlife.
Anderson does allow "Ovid likes to attribute memory of some traumatic event that continues form human form into animal form. " That makes sense with the tremendous instances of that in the Metamorphoses, which is, after all, about change.
Why, I wonder, could Phaethon not become a star? A real star? Because he sinned or did the wrong thing? Jupiter doesn't seem to care. But there's one line in Lombardo which makes me think that perhaps he knew he was wrong:
line 438:
Jupiter himself
Fashions excuses for the lightning discharge,
And adds to hi prayers a few royal threats.
This is where the Sun god doesn't want to drive the chariot any more, read: Jupiter's life will be affected, ergo he's doing what we see here.
The squabbling, narcissistic gods are in charge. Poor mortal man tries but apparently there's nothing HE can do. Is this how you're reading this portrayal of the Roman gods?
We've already seen how many things are symbolized in the constellations and he's about to put a lot more people in the sky.
I found a great thing in the Wall Street Journal Magazine today in quite an interesting article on Secrets. Each month the WSJ asks noted people about one subject apparently and the current topic is Secrets, so they asked Dr. Phil McGraw, Susan Lucci, Kitty Kelley and more on Secrets.. Kitty Kelley and Phil McGraw were interesting, but the one I found most interesting was Zack Snyder.
“I really believe that comics are our modern mythology. We deal with a lot of our issues through these characters the way the ancients explained volcanoes or earthquakes by inventing gods. The emotional earthquakes and volcanoes of our time are inexplicable, so we use these characters to comfort ourselves. I’ve directed a few films adapted from comics and graphic novels. Secrets and secret identities play a big role. They take on this kind of metaphorical significance and speak to the larger secrets the reader is keeping. Both in real life and in comics, an individual has a picture that they want to present to the world, a picture of who they are. Most of the time that picture is not completely authentic. Bruce Wayne is the mask, not Batman. Even if you dress up in drag, the armor is the real you.”
—Snyder is a director. His film Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice is out this month.
From: http://www.wsj.com/articles/dr-phil-mcgraw-susan-lucci-and-more-on-secrets-1454428491
That seems to speak to what several of you have said here about natural phenomena.
I like that. I like anything which seems to bring the ancients to live in our own world because they are here anyway, as Barbara said, we just don't realize it.
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Just a quicky today - I am a judge at the polls from noon on - yes, referred to the Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols by J.C. Cooper
I think the happy death aspect is the difference between how we would categorize what happened as compared to how it was to be interpreted - and even when you think of it the word Happy can be diced and sliced - what is Happy - if there is a purpose or an after benefit that could be considered by some as happy -
Somehow to look at what happened and see the benefit is what I get out of the symbolism to the swan and to the tears - I think also that if we impose human feelings and human pain to the story we are taking the "god" element that there is a greater story than our concern for pain.
Even if these gods were as if humans - then it would be a pretty horrible story of human carnage - are we all that depraved to pass along for thousands of years a story describing an unseemly death - it would be a bit wild to consider a story where people turn into trees and tears turn into amber and the sun was really driven across the sky by a chariot as affecting our sensibilities - so that I just cannot see that these stories are to have human pain and feelings or even human desires attached - seems odd so what could the story be saying - I am not sure - the only thought I have is, it does give a picture to what several thousand years ago was the explainable - it all sounds like something we would see on an episode of Dr. Who
OK gotta run and since I will not be finished till after 8: (after the polls close we have to break down all the equipment and pack it for pickup and get all the paper work copied into various envelopes and deliver the whole batch across town I will be zonked tomorrow and nap off and on most of the day.
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Thank you. Have fun at the polls, I used to be a Poll Manager and would come home wiped. This one might be exciting tho.
I see his reference to swans:
"Graeco-Roman: A form of Zeus/ Jupiter as Leda’s swan; amorousness; sacred to Aphrodite/ Venus, also to Apollo as solar. A happy death."
That last little phrase might need a few more citations before it can be accepted as fact, there don't seem to be any there, no instances of that "happy death" happening.
On this: so that I just cannot see that these stories are to have human pain and feelings or even human desires attached - A VERY good point!
The entire time we've been reading Ovid here the commentators who analyze the text have been talking about, particularly Anderson, the way that Ovid has manipulated the reader into denying any feelings for the people in this story which you ordinarily, any human being, would.
We haven't talked about this or mentioned how he does it. I did ask way back there why he's chosen to put a certain scene in, to interrupt, I think it was in the Io story, to interrupt the pathos of Io with the story of Pan, but it went by the wayside.
In fact Ovid himself by his art and his dexterity, especially in the Latin is seeing to it that, as Anderson puts it, "the pathos of Phaethon" is interrupted and diffused. Ovid is deliberately making sure we don't identify or get emotional about any of the characters we normally might, by several means.
He's BEEN doing this throughout the entire piece, he's been switching the focus of the piece, or when emotions might threaten us, he makes a joke, floods the piece with irony...Jonathan has picked up on the comic bits, the ridiculousness, he distracts us, by subject, by throwing in dazzling scenes, from feeling any strong emotion for any of these poor people.
Even the burial of Phaethon, the grief of the mother and sisters is interrupted by the sisters turning into trees for Pete's sake, and this Cygnus coming out of the blue, turning into a swan and the father sulking and refusing to drive the chariot. He forces the reader to focus his attention elsewhere.
HE'S doing it. Looks like it worked. And the Latin is even more pointed, you can't concentrate on any of the emotions or feel anything close for any of them because of the Latin, which is almost literally turning cartwheels: shape shifting and all consuming in interest.
Why have these myths lasted, then? What a wonderful question, Barbara.
Why HAVE they, do you all think? The Question of the Year! Well asked. What do you all think?
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Somebody way back there asked who is Melville as a translator?
A.D. Melville seems to be the translator of choice for the scholars who are commenting on the Metamorphoses. I didn't have a Melville but I see it's only 5 dollars, shipping free, on Amazon, so I thought I'd take the plunge. It will be interesting to see what he says, how he says it and if it's any different. We have seen that translators can make a lot of difference. It should be here Thursday (love that Prime!)
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GINNY:"The squabbling, narcissistic gods are in charge. ....Is this how you're reading this portrayal of the Roman gods?"
The portrayal of the Roman gods makes no sense to me: one minute they are all-powerful, all-seeing; the next as stupid and petty as any human.
GINNY again: "Ovid is deliberately making sure we don't identify or get emotional about any of the characters we normally might, by several means."
I hadn't noticed before, but of course you're right. Why? Perhaps the characters in these stories are not actually thought of as people, but as symbols. Or perhaps just as means to the end of explaining why things are the way they are. There are some modern writers that write that way, and I can never really understand them.
There may be a whole way of thinking here I'm not grasping. I've always wondered how the Greeks and Romans could believe in and worship gods that were so petty, mean and sometimes stupid. We assume that our God is better than we are. they seem to assume that the life of the gods is just like human life except they have more power and don't have to worry about death and getting food and shelter. Only about managing those pesky humans.
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Ginny:
Why, I wonder, could Phaethon not become a star?
I don't know why the myth didn't turn him into a star, and of course Ovid couldn't tinker with the myth that much, but now that I know the myth, in my mind he has turned into a star.
In a wonderful passage, Phaethon plunges down, his flaming red hair leaving a trail like a meteor, arcing to land in the river Eridanus, where his fire is quenched. Eridanus is a constellation, meant to represent Phaethon's river. If you've ever seen Orion, you've seen it without realizing it, because it's an inconspicuous trickle of stars, starting at Orion's knee and winding southward, hard to figure out, even with star maps. But the last, southernmost star of the string is Achernar, one of the ten brightest stars in the sky. It's too far south to see from most of the continental US, but two years ago I saw it in Hawaii, brilliant and gleaming. If I ever see it again, I'll know I'm looking at Phaethon, glowing fiercely as he lands in the river, about to be quenched.
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I agree. Ub our mind at least, Phaethon has his star.
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More on Achernar.
http://earthsky.org/brightest-stars/bright-achernar-ends-the-southern-river
Flatest star known? Why? Found this answer on Space.com
http://www.space.com/23570-achernar.html
BTW: Epsilon Eridani, also in the Eridanus constellation, is one of the most featured systems in Science Fiction. It is also the one where they found the Jupiter sized planet back in 2000. If I remember correctly, it was the first exo-planet discovered.
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Hmmm. How can we fit an exoplanet into the Myths? A woman and her child turned into a star and planet?
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I am going to have to see if I can follow the river from Rigel, which is very bright and I can see it (an Orion) right in front of my house around 7 or 8 PM. Lately, I like looking out the window at Orion and planet spotting from upstairs front window. I can see even more stars if I go outside. My house faces South.
Well, back to more reading.
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Interesting on all the astronomical things, I didn't know anything about those, how fascinating, Pat and Frybabe! More rivers in the sky to go with Ovid's milky way road to the gods. Love it.
Super points, also Joan K, :I hadn't noticed before, but of course you're right. Why? Perhaps the characters in these stories are not actually thought of as people, but as symbols. Or perhaps just as means to the end of explaining why things are the way they are. There are some modern writers that write that way, and I can never really understand them.
Why he's portrayed these events as he has, has been the focus of debate for centuries. Everybody seems to have a theory. I'm not well versed enough in Ovidian theory to offer one but it does seem to me at a very minimum that most mortals are mere playthings of the whims of the gods. And they need to be respectful. Man is not in control.
Back then I wonder tho how much surety there was in anything. In one of the Latin classes we just read about Aeneas in the Underworld, taken down by the Sybil and the Golden Bough. Here was the famous prophetic passage of Vergil's Aeneid, where Aeneas sees shades or ghosts drinking in the river of forgetfulness. Here Anchises, Aeneas's father, explains to Aeneas that they are the souls who will reincarnate as Augustus, and famous generals, et. al, and lead Rome to greatness.
Other Eastern religions offered a type of resurrection, such as Isis, but it wasn't a personal relationship with a personal god such as we would expect.
By the time of Ovid, the Greeks had long since (from about 500 B.C. onwards) ceased to feel that the pantheon of gods was viable in their lives. When the Romans took it over it was a business type relationship. As said earlier, there were no scriptures for the Romans, there were only traditions of worship and they were adhered to scrupulously even tho some of the gods were long forgotten. It was the ritual. Very much like Wang Lung in Pearl Buck's The Good Earth. That's why the death of Phaethon is so shocking in many ways and would have been to the reader. Note tho that Clymene did manage to say the correct words which is more than the Sun god did. He's a mess.
To me, of all the characters here HE'S the most anachronistic. He's doing emotions we could understand, she's doing what the ancients expected. The sisters, however, to cut the sadness, are becoming trees and this hitherto unknown Cygnus, one of many in mythology, such a close friend of Phaethon, turns into a swan. So we have our metamorphoses, after all, almost tacked on. We really ought to try to keep a look at who DOES get placed as a planet or star, it's Jupiter who does the placing apparently and apparently he was no fan of Phaethon. I guessin that thunderbolt he was just being Jupiter as Jupiter was thought to be.
Quo vadimus now? Do you want to read another tale, not particularly in order? We did Book I which is what we set out to do, splendidly.
But there are some fabulous ones just waiting online. Should we take a look at a couple? Or?
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Boy we sure wrung out every bit on that story didn't we - the night sky stories were wonderful. I wonder if we being on the edge if we can see this star at the edge of the northern night sky - we are a bit lower than El Paso which is about even with Waco an hour and a half north of Austin.
Prefer to skip the rape stories and I'm ready for the Crow and the Raven including the Crows Story followed by Mercury, Battus and the stolen cattle - need some vibes that are not filled with rape, death and the mean behavior of these gods towards women - enough for awhile...
Isn't there some sort of Celtic or ancient Irish myth about stolen cattle? And the American Indian myths all have a story about a Crow.
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I'm game for another story. who else?
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I'm game! Let's put it to a vote. There are SO many super stories which we will never get to if we keep on in order.
Barbara, thank you for your idea. Could we add your nomination to a slate of votes and see how many we would like to do? The order doesn't matter and it might be picked first.
I'm going to add to Barbara's suggestion Ceres and Proserpina, Echo and Narcissus, Baucis and Philemon, maybe Pyramis and Thisbe, that's Babylonian, Atalanta and Hippomones, and Minerva and Arachne.
All GREAT stories and fun to read.
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go for it - that is 10 stories - unless the story grabs us why not just spend about 5 days - this month we have Easter so that could be a dead weekend - so that leaves us not counting these first 3 days - 25 days
10 stories have been suggested - if we do 5 a month that is March and April -
Or if we do one a week that is still only mid May - by then we will have had a chance to surf the books. I like Kline for surfing - so that we could browse and choose 4 a month -
Why not see how it goes - we'll want a break mid-summer - so maybe skip the week of July 4 - and frankly I know we said the year but my personal druthers is that I really do not want to be reading Ovid past early to mid November - by then I want some traditional nineteenth or early twentieth century winter read.
Another feature I would love to see added to this discussion is for us to list any books or plays where the premise is taken for the particular Ovid story we are reading.
I am anxious to browse all of Ovid just to see what stories were included and at the same time adding to my knowing of these books. So the idea of us looking for Ovid stories to discuss after mid May appeals to me.
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Just popped in to see if this book discussion has been completed.
Barb, Prefer to skip the rape stories and I'm ready for the Crow and the Raven including the Crows Story followed by Mercury, Battus and the stolen cattle - need some vibes that are not filled with rape, death and the mean behavior of these gods towards women - enough for awhile...
This is partly why I decided to leave the discussion. The story just continues on with rape, death and mean behavior of theses gods toward women, as you so well pointed out.
Today I began reading The Odyssey,translated by George Herbert Palmer. I so LOVE Homer!!! He begins his story with so much respect for women. To take a quote from the Introduction:
"Odysseus is the central character, a man wise not through the possession of large knowledge (Nestor is that) but through sagacity, resourcefulness, and self-command. Other men__Telemachus, Eumaeus, Antinous, and Eurymachs__bear important parts. But the dominant forces of the poem are women. The prime mover is a goddess."
Ovid seems to be fixated on abuse for the female. I took my book back to the library today.
For clarification....temetque temyl was a typo, intended to be "teme que templa" or "templa tenet" which were taken from the Latin pages I had posted. Translated into English means "which holds temples"
I have to share this insight from the Introduction of The Odyssey as well:
"There are twenty-three English translations of the Odyssey. Between the earliest of them__the brilliant version of George Chapman, 1615, in five iambics, couplet rhyme__and the year 1861, when Matthew Arnold published this stimulating essays "On Translating Homer," a new rendering of the Odyssey appeared about every thirty years. Since that time the rate of issues has been ten times more rapid. Among these translations the most important are those of Alexander Pope, 1725, five iambics, couplet rhyme; William Cowper, 1791, five iambics, blank verse; Henry Cary, 1823, prose; P.S. Worsley, 1861, Spenserian stanza; W.C. Bryant, 1872, five iambics, blank verse; S.H. Butcher and A. Lang. A world's book like the Odyssey cannot be exhausted, nor can any one person completely report it. It has as many aspects as it has translators. Hobbes commended it to his readers as a series of lesson in morals; to Worsley it was the world's great fairy tale, to Butcher and Lang it is an archaic "historical document." Others have found in it a philological interest, a mythological, a grammatical. However broad minded a student may be, his sympathies are sure to reach a limit somewhere short of the compass of Homer. I have approached the Odyssey from the philosophic and poetic side, delighting in Homer's unique mental attitude. Notwithstanding his extraordinary powers of observation and utterance, he seems to me to confront the world like a child. Turning to him, I escape from our complicated and introspective world, and am refreshed."
What a perfect ending to think about as we close this discussion of the Metamorphoses Book l & ll. Metamorphoses is to each of us what we take away from it.
PatH., Thank you, I too enjoyed discussing this book with you as well. There is no book for the month of March, so I will continue with The Odyssey and I also picked up The Girl On The Train by Paula Hawkins.
Until me meet again..... Ciao for now
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Bellemarie Homer may not have show rape but his treatment of women is not exactly uplifting - in The Odyssey woman are treated based on appearance, the things men want from them, and whether the woman has any power over men.
During Odysseus' journey to the underworld he sees many different types of women. We hear about their beauty, their bewitching ability to seduce, their important sons, or their affairs with gods. We hear nothing about these women's accomplishments in their lifetime. And it appears to be an OK thing that Odysseus lives with some of the women he meets, some for years with no thought of his being married to Penelope.
Penelope is paid attention to only because of her position. Because she has a kingdom, she has suitors crowding around her day and night. Being a woman, Penelope has no control over what the suitors do and cannot get rid of them. The suitors want her wealth and her kingdom. They do not respect her enough to stop feeding on Odysseus' wealth; they feel she owes them something because she won't marry one of them. One of the suitors, Antinoos, tells Telemakhos, her son "...but you should know the suitors are not to blame- it is your own incomparably cunning mother." Even Telemakhos doesn't respect his mother as he should.
When the song of a minstrel makes her sad and Penelope requests him to stop playing, Telemakhos interrupts and says to her, "Mother, why do you grudge our own dear minstrel joy of song, wherever his thought may lead."
When Odysseus returns he hides his true identity from Penelope to test her. Then, when Penelope is cautious about accepting that it is truly him, Odysseus rails against her in anger.
There really is very little respect for women by Homer or any of these ancient Greek writers. We can each read these stories with whatever sensibilities works for us - I found the only way for me is to see the symbolism in the union of opposites but yes, the aggressive aspect of 'right' exhibited by the males gets to be a bit much after a couple of episodes.
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Egads Barb, I think you have just posted spoilers for me since I have never read The Odyssey and am only on the first chapters. So far I like how Penelope was creative enough to unravel the threads at night, so the suitors were put off, that in fact gives her control of keeping the suitors from her. Pretty smart and funny! I also like how Athene is able to give Telemachus guidance and counsel to go in search for his father. These examples show me Homer has given some credence to women, rather than just their beauty.
Ovid's fixation with rape, and transforming women into trees and cows was just a bit too much for me. I found no enjoyment reading the Metamorphoses, filled with chaos and over egotistical male gods bringing harm to the females, and even their own self, with all that male muscle flexing.
I love the style of Homer's writing.
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I would like to continue reading in Metamorphoses, but will go to something else if that is what the group wants to do. I believe that in their actual cultures, women were more respected and more powerful in Roman than in Greek culture. I have not read the Odyssey in many years and really have just started with Metamorphoses, but would expect mythology/literature to reflect that.
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I would like to continue too. I'm really hooked on the book. The advantage of a bunch of short tales is that we can start and stop at will.
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Bellamarie, Penelope continues to act with strength, and Homer does portray women with sympathy. It,s too bad you weren't around when we did the Odyssey.
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I see a lot of sympathy for women in The Metamorphoses - as victims. And I also see this discussion as a lively fresh look at Ovid. Please continue.
'... in their actual cultures, women were more respected and more powerful in Roman than in Greek culture.'
That's a good thing to be reminded of, Mkaren. The history of powerful women remains to be written. Is already being written. I'm always reminded of Rudyard Kipling's poem with it's refrain:
'For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.'
So the metamorphoses were perhaps intended to save the women from themselves? Poetic justice.
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PatH., I'm sorry I was not around when the discussion on the Odyssey was taking place as well. Maybe I'll peek back into the archives to see how those who discussed it saw things. But I am finding it so enjoyable. I happened to be in Barnes & Noble today and found a two in one book of, The Odyssey and The Iliad for only $7.98 and decided to buy it since I have never read either of them.
Jonathan, I see a lot of sympathy for women in The Metamorphoses - as victims.
Why did this make me giggle. ;D Ovid tortures women and then shows sympathy for them. Intended to save the women from themselves ??? Hmm.... interesting concept.
Ya'll have fun with continuing on with the Metamorphoses, I have had enough of Ovid.
Homer has me hooked!!!
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Jonathan, there are more than a few powerful women in the ancient world. Cleopatra is probably the best known here. But there are others.
The Trung Sisters in Vietnam are practically unkinown here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%C6%B0ng_Sisters
Hatshepsut, died 1458BC
Empress Wu Zetian, born: 625 AD; died: 705 AD
Queen Boudicca, who found against the Romans in Britain 60-61BC
Zenobia, Queen of Palmyra was born around 240AD
Nefertiti
Artemisia, ruler of Halicarnassus, fought with Xerxes against Greece in 480-479 BC
Cartimandua, Queen of the Brigantes
Elen Luyddog, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Elen
Some are shouded in myth, so it is hard to tell fact from fantasy.
Penthesilea, a Queen of the Amazons during the Trojan Wars. She sought revenge against Achilles for killing her sister.
Divoka Sarka, http://www.radio.cz/en/section/czechs/czechs-in-history-2001-03-21
Semiramis (Sammu-Ramat), warrior Queen of Assyria. Several ancient historians (including Herodotus) mention her although neither she nor her husband are on the "Kings List".
A caveat, however, many powerful women in the ancient world got there because they happened to be married to powerful men. Not a few were regents for their underaged children. And, of course, there were plenty of men who didn't like it, so some of these women didn't last long.
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Fabulous! It looks as if we have a great group assembling, are you in, Frybabe? And we can see if we can attract others, who may be interested in the exciting choices presented. We can choose right here or in a poll which story we would like to address.
What do you say we take a week or so to deliberate and to discuss the different choices and then set a new date to begin? I do think having read Book I some of you now have a good understanding and background, from the many intelligent remarks here about what Ovid was doing, to continue. We will all get something very worthwhile out of it. And we will be glad we did it, too. It will be "One for the Books!"
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I'm glad you are discovering Homer. Enjoy. When we were reading it, I said something about Homer respecting women, and someone answered "Homer respects everyone". You cant expect anyone in those times to have the "attitude toward women" that men kinda-sorta have today: he portrays them as a man of his times would. But his basic empathy with all people comes through.
"many powerful women in the ancient world got there because they happened to be married to powerful men." Unlike Hilary Clinton. We haven't gotten that far.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Phaethon.jpg)
The Fall of Phaethon by Sebastiano Ricci, 1703-04, Belluno
---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...
---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al
---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)----Translated by Brookes More
Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm)
For Your Consideration:
“Week” Four: Phaethon!
Bk I:747-764 Phaethon’s parentage
Bk I:765-779 Phaethon sets out for the Palace of the Sun
Bk II:1-30 The Palace of the Sun
Bk II:31-48 Phaethon and his father
What Do You Think?
1. Are there any themes which appear in the beginning of the Phaethon story while it's still in Book I which could happen today?
2. Why is Clymene angry?
3. Ovid's description of the Palace of the Sun God is considered an ekphrasis (or ecphrasis) a long detailed description which stands as a symbol or allegory for something else. What do you think it might stand for?
4. We in 2016 do a lot of things better than past ages. But what do they do better? the sense of wonder? Have we seen too many beautiful palaces in bad movies to be able to see them any more? (Joan K)
5. How many Universal themes can we see in the story of Phaethon which are alive and well today?
6. According to W.S. Anderson the Phaethon story contains is a "folktale motif of the 'fatal gift.'" Who do you fault most in the giving of this gift, Apollo who sees all or Phaethon? If Apollo is all seeing and all knowing and is the god of prophesy on top of it, how do you explain his mistake in giving the chariot?
Former Questions, Still up for Grabs:
1. What to you is the saddest thing in the Io story?
2. This story is full of beautiful descriptions. Which lines particularly struck you? Do they interfere with the plot line?
3. What effect do the flashback elements and the interruption of the Pan and Syrinx have on the reader's feelings for Io?
4. What would you say is the tone of the Io story?
5. This is quite a story, it has two metamorphoses and two aetiological myths in it. Which one is the most important?
6. What might Io's struggles to communicate symbolize in our own time?
7. Who actually has the last word in this section?
8. What's your impression of Io's father?
9. If you had to choose between being Io or Daphne, which one would you choose? Why?
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
Thank you, Pat.
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Homer does indeed respect everyone. Almost everyone has at least some little chance to have their say. Someone who is just in a battle scene as one more person to be killed is still given his bit of history.
Inanimate objects too--when Athena throws a rock at Aphrodite, it isn't just a rock, we learn its history as a boundary stone.
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JoanK.,
But his (Homer) basic empathy with all people comes through.
Yes, I agree, he has a way of making you feel what the characters are feeling even if you don't care for how they are acting.
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Even tho this discussion is over I found this super representation in statuary of the hitching up of the horses of Phaethon by Gaspard Marsy (1626-1681) and thought it would be such a shame if it weren't included. Isn't it spectacular?
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Horses.jpg)
I don't know where this is located, and would like to, but you won't be surprised when looking at it to learn that Marsy worked for Louis XIV in the palace of Versailles. I wonder if this is there. It's absolutely out of this world, isn't it?
On St. Patrick's Day, we hope you will join us in our new discussion of all new stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses! Our first selection is Philemon and Baucis, a story of constancy in love, humility, and generosity. One of the many great things about it is that it's unique to Ovid, it's entirely his own creation.
The stories are all online, and touch on themes alive in 2016. An exciting new venture to celebrate our 20th year as online book clubs. Won't you join us for one or all of them?
More details and a new discussion going up soon.
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You guessed correctly, Ginny, The title of the statue is "Horses of the Sun" and they are at the Baths of Apollo, Chateau de Versailles. http://www.versailles3d.com/en/over-the-centuries/xxie/2008.html
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/6389919 This view gives you a prespective of the size of the grotto with the people in the foreground.
I am puzzled by these old garden plan etchings. Were these statues once part of an indoor display? Right click to see the interior displays of the Grotto.
Ah, this answers my question. http://rbsc.princeton.edu/versailles/grotto The original Grotto did not last long; only the statues were saved and resituated.
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this one of Apollo at Versailles is marvelous
(http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/6374059.jpg)
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What a fabulous site you found Frybabe - here is one of Enceladus - one of the giants born from Earth and Sky that was supposed to have been buried under Mount Etna.
(http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/101849877.jpg)
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Barb, I think I read on one of the sites about the gardens, that the Apollo statue you just posted represents Apollo rising from the sea at daybreak.
The Latona Fountain was inspired by The Metamorphoses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmoTpYdrm9s
The Myth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSpBugCUC84
Personally, I think the fountain is a bit ugly, but the myth explains why the frogs and mutating humans rather nicely.
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Frybabe I like this youtube because it tells the story of Latona - so all the water coming from the frogs are the insults from these peasants turned into frogs - fantastic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSpBugCUC84&ebc=ANyPxKowbPRS1QvRU_e8JoFsGoQV34_pGQP4cNFJtNI-CkIS0LcxzG6z5bo1pNw4CYdFAPVx2PwS
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Ginny after seeing several youtube photos of the horses I think your photo is so special because of the lighting - seeing these horses with the other three works of art about the sun they are nice but not as wonderful as this properly lighted photo.
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I agree, Barb. The grotto setting in real life without the back lighting diministhes the statues them. They day shots of the grotto as a whole make the statues look small and "stuck" on as an afterthought.
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Gosh what wonderful photos. That one of Apollo rising is out of this world, isn't it?
Yes I also am surprised at the size of the statues of the harnessing of the horses, they seem quite small. I had envisioned something like the ones in the Tuileries or something, quite odd, that "grotto," also. But what beautiful work. I wonder why they were made so small. Everything else there is so big.
Not sure we'll ever know.
But one thing we DO know, we're off on a new adventure with all new stories in the morning, starting with Phinemon and Baucis which you can read in about 2 minutes but which has a lot to say.
I think it's my favorite myth but it's not a Greek myth at all, is it?
Do come right on over here: http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4878.msg278644#msg278644 (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4878.msg278644#msg278644) and pull up a chair!
We've a lot to talk about!