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Metamorphoses, Part II: New Stories:
Philemon and Baucis (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph8.htm#482327670)
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/BaucisRubensJupiterandMercuriusinthehousePhilemon1630-1633%20KunsthistorischesMuseumVienna.jpg)
"Jupiter and Mercurius in the house of Philemon and Baucis"
by Peter Paul Rubens (1630/1633)
Kunsthistorisches Museum, Vienna
Translations Online:
A. S. Kline (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)
(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)~~~~~ Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)~~~~~ Brookes More (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)
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Family Trees of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
Greek gods (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm) ~~~~~Roman gods (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
For Your Consideration:
What a wonderful sweet story that is and look at all the hidden elements.
1. First let's talk about the wonderful feast and the exquisite tiny details. Ovid took a lot of time over this one. Which one struck you most? That sounds like quite a nice dinner to be 2000+ years old. Is there anything there you would consider eating today?
2. What role do you think that Pirithoüs' skepticism of the power of the gods plays in setting up the story?
3. What in the description of the couple's preparation of the meal reminds you of such a couple today? What is different?
4. The ancient system of the Guest-Host hospitality was very important to the Romans. It is revealed in Homer's Odyssey and in the Iliad. Guests were invited in, offered a bath or time to refresh, given dinner and THEN asked their story. It was considered the worst of manners to turn away a guest seeking refuge from the door. Imagine what would happen in 2016 if this were done?
---- What is the Roman sacred law of hospitality?
----What tradition for hospitality does this story remind you of?
-----In ancient Rome what is the difference between public or commercial hospitality and State hospitality as compared to home hospitality?
What does that say to us about how far our own society has come? What ARE our standards of manners today? Have table manners gone the way of the dodo? What do table manners symbolize, anyway?
5. The detail of the dinner preparations differs from those told in other authors in sumptuousness. How does Ovid reveal in the tiniest details the status of the old couple? What are some of the clues to their situation you can see in the story?
6. What does the incident with the goose add to the story? What does it tell you about Ovid?
7. Ovid has pulled out all the stops in his poetry here. He even has a Golden Line to describe this poor yet pious couple and their piety. What might be a reason for this embellishment of their poverty?
8. The fare is quite poor by Roman standards. Cabbage was considered a lowly vegetable by the Romans and they liked their meat fresh, not having hung from a rafter for a long time. The description of the wine alone would stun an ancient Roman. How would this meal differ from an affluent Roman's table? Do you think Ovid is trying to symbolize something here? If so, what?
Philemon and Baucis; click here to read: (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph8.htm#482327670)
Bk VIII:611-678 Lelex tells of Philemon and Baucis
Bk VIII:679-724 The transformation of Philemon and Baucis.
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Joan K (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
Marcie (marciei@aol.com) Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
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Oh here you are. Now off to read the new selection.
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Yes, glad to see you here! And tomorrow we'll start out with our brand new series, all new stories, and this time we'll choose them not by going straight through (there ARE 250 of them, after, all) but taking them as we like.
I like the idea of our voting together for the next one on one from a couple of possibilities, it might be fun and innovative, and different, but for now we're going to look at Baucis and Philemon, a story which is unique to Ovid, and quite lovely.
Check out some possible questions for discussion in the heading and join us with your shamrocks on tomorrow for a new look at an old book, Ovid's Metamorphoses and the story of Baucis and Philemon.
We've had such a good discussion so far, we might just hit the pot of gold this time.
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/potogold.jpg)
Everyone is welcome!
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Looking forward to our 'meeting like this' - see you tomorrow -now to rustle up something green to wear - not a big color for me.
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Looking up in my Classical Mythology book -- this is considered a flood story.
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I'm so glad to be joining you all. I'm finding Ovid a wonderful storyteller. He provides such great details and intertwines everything so well. What an interesting transition from the last part of a story about Perimele and how she was changed into an island into this story about Philemon and Baucis. You don't see, at first, the connection between "an oak and a lime tree standing side by side" and the island but you see it at the end of the story.
" But as you can see for yourself, far off, far off one island vanishes, dear to me: the sailors call it Perimele. I loved her and stole her virginity. At which her father, unable to accept it, threw his daughter from the cliffs into the deep, intending to destroy her. I caught her, and holding her as she swam, I cried: ‘O God of the Trident, to whom rule over the restless waves, closest to earth, fell by lot, give your aid I beg, and grant a place to one whom a father’s anger drowns, or allow her to be that place herself!’ While I spoke, new earth clasped her body, as she swam, and a solid island rose, round her changed limbs.
Bk VIII:611-678 Lelex tells of Philemon and Baucis
At this, the river-god fell silent. The wonder of the thing had gripped them all. But that daring spirit, Pirithoüs, son of Ixion, scornful of the gods, laughed at their credulity. ‘These are fictions you tell of, Acheloüs, and you credit the gods with too much power, if you think they can give and take away the forms of things.’ The others were startled, and disapproved of his words, Lelex above all, experienced in mind and years, who said: ‘The power of the gods is great and knows no limit, and whatever heaven decrees comes to pass. To help convince you, in the hills of Phrygia, an oak and a lime tree stand side by side, surrounded by a low wall. I have seen the place, since Pittheus, king of Troezen, sent me into that country, where his father Pelops once ruled. "
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"Philemon and Baucis" took me into the belief system in Ancient Rome. I have always wondered what the gods and goddesses with their human-like qualities, good and bad, meant in the lives of the Romans themselves. Clearly, Pirithous is a non-believer who laughs at believers. Then there is Lelex, the narrator of the myth, who begins, "Immense is the power of heaven and knows no end." is cautioning his listeners that it is the safest path in life is to believe and to listen to what the gods are asking and do their bidding. Then there are Philemon and Baucis who have great faith in the gods and are devoted to them. Everything they do honors the gods. It seems then that much like today there is no one way that the Romans felt toward mythology. It seems to me that "fear" of the power of the gods, motivates many and that "faith" in the sense that "God will provide." moves very few.
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MKaren:" It seems to me that "fear" of the power of the gods, motivates many and that "faith" in the sense that "God will provide." moves very few."
That's a very interesting thought. The feeling I get from these myths is one of uncertainty. You never know what will happen next, so you sacrifice to the gods, and hope that will help, and if it doesn't, you must have forgotten some other god.
But the gods here are different. they spare the life of the goose (and the old couple's legs) even though they are about to drown everyone (including the goose, I imagine).
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I must admit my first thought on reading the meal preparation was "Oh, they flavored cabbage with pork then, too." A Roman recipe book.
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But with "long hung"bacon from the backbone. It is appropriate to discuss cabbage on St. Patricks Day. I wonder if cabbage has always been a low class vegetable. I love it myself.
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I am reminded of Pascal's wager::
a. The Super-Dominance Argument
Pascal begins with a two-by-two matrix: either God exists or does not, and either you believe or do not.
--Table I-- God exists God does not exist
You believe in God (a) infinite reward (c) 250 utiles
You do not believe in God (b) infinite punishment (d) 200 utiles
If God exists then theists will enjoy eternal bliss (cell a), while atheists will suffer eternal damnation (cell b). If God does not exist then theists will enjoy finite happiness before they die (say 250 units worth), and atheists will enjoy finite happiness too, though not so much because they will experience angst rather than the comforts of religion. Regardless of whether God exists, then, theists have it better than atheists; hence belief in God is the most rational belief to have.
To accept and believe in the powers of the gods and the mythology around them will bring more happiness whether the myths are true or not. After all you never know when a god will come knocking on the door.
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Gosh what wonderful thoughts here, I'm loving the discussion so far already!
MKaren:" It seems to me that "fear" of the power of the gods, motivates many and that "faith" in the sense that "God will provide." moves very few."
Joan K: That's a very interesting thought. The feeling I get from these myths is one of uncertainty. You never know what will happen next, so you sacrifice to the gods, and hope that will help, and if it doesn't, you must have forgotten some other god.
There used to be a wonderful set of series on youtube from the UK called Horrible Histories and Rotten Romans. They are funny but they have a point under all of it. They appeared on the BBC which has been very vigorous in the last 10 years in removing them. I am glad I saved the ones I did. There was a great one on Roman gods in which somebody going into battle came into the temple to pray to this or that Roman god for victory, and kept forgetting this or that minor god, and losing his temper, and it was hilarious, he'd be reminded by the priest in the temple, oh you forgot XXX, god of shoes, and he'd go back and say his chant again, while the battle raged on he had wanted to control and finally gave up in anger, and ran out and was killed, and the attendant at the temple said to him, as he staggered back in saying what happened, "oh, we forgot XXX for Victory in Battle!"
They were well known for making a point under the satire. Pretty much along the same lines you've just said, Joan K, and Karen.
But tho I have it on my computer, it's gone from youtube so we can't see it now.
Here's all I can find on youtube on this, now, this one is silly but they did find hundreds of votives, tablets, at Bath, and many are on display there today, so there's some history behind the satire.
I almost hate to break the spell here with silliness, but you're both so on it!
Roman Gods Direct from School Tube ]https://www.schooltube.com/video/83f072b61b314bb2b3f2/Horrible%20Histories:%20Roman%20Gods%20Direct] Roman Gods Direct from School Tube (https://www.schooltube.com/video/83f072b61b314bb2b3f2/Horrible%20Histories:%20Roman%20Gods%20Direct)
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It's so interesting to me that you all are seeing different things in this story.
Sally says, "Looking up in my Classical Mythology book -- this is considered a flood story."
Marcie and Karen both mention that beautiful line about the power of the gods being immense "Lelex above all, experienced in mind and years, who said: ‘The power of the gods is great and knows no limit, and whatever heaven decrees comes to pass.;" And a wonderful discussion on Roman religion or religion in general, Karen and JoanK!
Alan Griffin wrote a wonderful long essay a while ago about this story and pointed out all of the "religious motifs" which the story surrounds itself in, and there are a lot of them, including the sacred tree in a walled enclosure, the superhuman beings wandering the earth to test humans, the "motif" of entertaining the gods in an humble environment, the motif of miraculous replenishment as a sign of divine good will, the motif of a flood, as divine punishment for human wickedness, and the saving of one pious couple, and the motif of divine rewards for piety and hospitality." And that's only in the first two paragraphs of his article.
Motifs, that's an interesting word, have we ever considered them?
So that raises a really good question which I didn't even think to bring up: what IS this story about?
The humble meal was used in satire a lot by the Romans whose literature, as the Greek, concerned lavish feasts, as shown in Homer, even in humble circumstances, but here we have what seems to me, in 2016, more than an adequate meal.
But several things about it would have been like Burger Barn to the Romans, for instance the cabbage, as Karen brought up. I love cabbage, too, in any form, but apparently the Romans considered it a very "lowly" vegetable, according to Anderson, and while I thought that was a pretty good recipe, too, JoanK, it appears the Romans would have been disgusted by meat hung too long on a hook. They preferred their meat fresh. So maybe this is why Baucis attempted to catch the goose?
I don't know anything about ancient methods of preservation, do any of you? It might seem the penchant of the Romans for the very strong garum, or fish sauce, sort of indicates it was useful to strongly savor the meat which may have turned a bit, but it may be that this bit of bacon wasn't the freshest thing in town. All this the old couple did before they realized who their guests were: then she tried to catch the goose, which was apparently underfoot.
There seem to be a lot of things in this story, is there any one which stands out the most so far?.
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Karen and Joan, both fear and faith do seem to be attitudes towards the gods in this story.
That's a very funny video, Ginny, to highlight the polytheism of the Romans. You bring up the question of what the story is about. As we've seen from the posts so far, I think we each see different features in the story. On the face of it, Lelex says that he's going to tell a story "to help convince" the skeptic Pirithoüs that "the power of the gods knows no limits." Lelex has seen the place where two trees stand, side by side, and the origin story of the trees involves a god's act of transforming people, similar to the actions that Pirithoüs has questioned. As we read the details of the story it will be fun to share lots of things we think the story is about.
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Evidently there were sacred geese kept in Rome and associated with Mars as war and as a symbol of fertility.
I wonder the weighing scale between fear and faith - fear of what - faith for what - to stop the change that we all experience - the Metamorphose??? He shows in each story a change so fantastical it appears as fairy tales like this married couple turning into entwining trees - Trees of knowledge??? Trees of life??? The Cosmic Tree??? The Singing Tree???
The Oak is the symbol for the sky God Jupiter or Zeus - The Linden is symbolic for beauty and conjugal love.
In a time when the earth was a flat disk floating above water, while many in the west thought to be held up by huge tree trunks - and a sky that was thought to be a bowl that would leak from time to time - with the fear the bowl would spring a huge leak so that all would drown and no knowledge of what made the sun rise and set or the wind blow cold or warm - much less to understand where feelings of love or rage originate - the mind and soul are interchangeable, Aristotle names only 11 emotions - in such a world to give all this unknown flux many powers beyond the power of a human seems reasonable. And yet, to infuse these powers with behavior a human can understand seems to me to be no different than today we give the Judo-Christian God the attributes of a human.
Even the Judo-Christian God is at times described as capable of fearful horrors - turning people into salt - flooding and drowning all but a handful - damning and opening a sea for a short period of time. Seems to me fear of the unknown would be a constant companion so that faith in something more powerful allowed folks to get on with it...
Instead of one God working 'His' magic from afar, creating earth, water, sun etc. rather the Greek/Roman version is that each aspect of the universe and humanity is a God, formed from the chaos with a particular power. Reminds me of the saints - each oversee a piece of life based on their experience during their life.
Without a story as to how the sun, moon, waters, trees, humans came to be we humans would feel as if in a nameless void - a continued chaos - as both Plato and Aristotle wondered if we could actually be dreaming constantly, instead of being in waking reality or, as Zhuangzi (369 BC) dreamed that he was a carefree butterfly, flying happily. After he woke up, he wondered how he could determine whether he was Zhuangzi who had just finished dreaming he was a butterfly, or a butterfly who had just started dreaming he was Zhuangzi.
And so little by little every object and instinct was named with a story attached - order among the many meant stories of how to behave were as important as stories to explain the sun, thunder, storms, Spring, love, jealousy. This naming and these stories offered a 'known' that made faith balance fear - hmm I wonder, is that saying naming is part of faith or fitting a story to what we fear, is that part of faith - is faith in the known rather than the unknown?
Thinking about it, the gods mostly follow the habits of animals - with no formal ceremony animals mate, for various reasons eat their new born, live in groups of their own kind, fight among themselves, are part of a visible food chain that gives rational to, not only saving your own skin but for war. Many animals banish the males until the rut followed by mating and so we have gods who come and go in time to fight with each other and then mate with the most desirable female, animals hunt in packs and share the kill according to prowess, few live solitary lives.
I am smiling thinking and wondering if a One God holed up in his lair placing a sun in its orbit and stars in the sky and trees growing out of the earth and then creating man is the next step up from gods copying the behavior of animals - is the one God concept a little more couth, less barbaric, more mannerly... ;D
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this is wonderful for those who would like to see this story translated from the Latin -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ojR3TUmA40
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More sillyness. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1acAxgnacu4
It appears that YouTube has a bunch of Philemon and Baucis clips. Many are amateur productions with many of those producted for school projects.
Bits of Philemon and Baucis, an opera, by Joseph Haydn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGmh0_Z0gdI&list=PLUSRfoOcUe4bTAmM5su46rmKSoPt5igSB Charles Gounod was also inspired to do an opera based on the story.
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Philemon and Baucus is a wonderful love story, The old couple married in that cottage and remain there still, seemingly satisfied with their lot in life and especially with each other. How often does that happen? It reminded me of the recent stories of Nancy and Ronnie Reagan who wanted their caskets buried very close together. Barb mentioned fear of thunder which reminded me of a childhood story that God was just rearranging furniture when it thundered. There was also the fear of placing another book on top of a bible; if that was done you were doomed. It seems silly now but as a kid it was scary stuff. I wonder how many choices of belief the Romans had? Was it either belief in the gods and goddesses or not? Today, it seems, there is a belief system for everyone. More choices, more fears?
Frybabe Love the Lego version of the story!
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There are one silly after the other on YouTube isn't there - the one in German is a riot...
Not going to say much - cannot believe what I did - got up during the night last night and whatever in the world I did I was bang crash on the floor and really hurt my tail - broke my tail bone years ago so glory only knows what I have damaged - but pain and trying to sit is a big challenge - no nerve damage so defiantly not more than the tail bone but its more Aleve and flat, probably the floor for at least today and maybe tomorrow - thank goodness my buyers are out of town this weekend - till later...
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Barb, oh dear, for goodness sake. Please get yourself checked out to make sure you haven't broken anything.
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Yes, BARB, do. We'll still be here when you get back.
MKAREN: I love that calculation by Pascal! How completely logical! (Except he left out the possibility that one would believe God exists but also be terrified you were unworthy and were damned. That's worth minus 500 utiles. Presumably, Pascal was too self confident to think of that).
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Cato was a great lover of cabbage. Also he said cabbage urine was supposed to fortify babies and cure patients bathed in it . Pliny however said it (cabbage) was "nothing special." Appicius has a recipe for cabbage leaves, garum, wine and oil. Pliny adds soda to the recipe to preserve the colour. Cato recommended eating raw cabbage and vinegar before drinking heavily at a feast......then....."you can drink as much as you like."
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Barbara, I'm so sorry about your fall. I hope that you feel better soon and that you didn't break anything.
Halcyon, you're right. This is a wonderful love story with such a special relationship between Philemon and Baucus.
Dana, that's fun information about cabbage.
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Who knew the humble cabbage had such properties. Wish I'd seen that sooner -- I had cabbage for dinner last night.
Ovid does a masterful job of adding little touches that take you into the world of the elderly couple. The short table leg, the "best" dish that is still cheap, and the only goose, that they were probably depending on for eggs, but were willing to sacrifice for guests, if they could catch it. Again, we have pathos and humor together, as in the description of the cow.
Is that Ovid? he cant feel sorry for someone without making fun of them a little too?
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Evidently it was only the turn of the last century Cabbage was considered to be the vegetable of poor people.
Greeks and Romans placed great importance on the healing powers of cabbage. They held that the vegetable could cure just about any illness.
Roman mythology holds that cabbages sprung from the tears of Lycurgus, King of the Edonians of Thrake who attacked Dionysos when the god was travelling through his land instructing men in the art of winemaking or, in another version of the tale, while the god was still a child in the care of the Nymphs of Mount Nysa. As the troupe fled, Lykourgos struck down the god's nurse Ambrosia with his axe The rest dived into the sea where they were given refuge by the goddess Thetis.
As punishment for his crime, Lykourgos was inflicted with madness and in this crazed state slew his wife and sons.
Emperor Claudius called upon his Senate to vote on whether any dish could surpass corned beef and cabbage.
And so I wonder if they were really offering the best food to the gods rather than a poor man's food.
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Why a flood story? “There is a swamp with a 1000 people living nearby who are evil and will not receive the gods. But the aged couple (Noah) do receive them. After the dinner (preparing the ark) they are told to leave their home. The gods then Flood the swamp and destroy all living there except the elderly couple who now guard the temple and new world.
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Isn't it wonderful that such a little story, so simple, can have so many ramifications as to what it's about?
Another flood story, that's clear in Sally's quote here, but it's not a universal flood, the entire world is not flooded, is it? And we've not got a boat, no Noah, but everything but their own house which has become a temple is flooded in the town. If Sally had not put that here, I doubt I'd have focused on that, because to me it's about something else, and I just love that it can be so many different things. There's no doubt there's a flood, tho.
I heard a speech once that the real sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was not receiving the poor who were outside the walls, that was the main offense. I have sort of held on to that ever since but it may in fact be only one man's opinion. But it rings true here too. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed but not by a flood.
Why a flood for the village Baucis and Philemon live in, one wonders? Why not fire?
Joan K mentions the gods wilfulness here in killing everything including the goose they saved. What an interesting point. Could the goose have flown away? Or could it have been taken up by the gods themselves? Since they stopped the old couple from killing it themselves.
Ovid starts by saying their powers are immense and certainly they can transform as Marcie has said and here's the proof, so the entire story is one of proof of the powers of the gods, that's another thing it's about. So why would Ovid want to prove they are powerful?
Dana and Barbara (Barbara, good heavens, I am sorry for your fall! I hope nothing is broken!!! And that you feel better. My parents always used to say don't do that you'll break your tail bone, I had no idea what that was or that it could be broken!)
But you and Dana and Joan K and Karen mentioned the feast, cabbage particularly, and Joan K mentions the humor when the old woman chases the goose, is Ovid making fun here of the piety of the old folks? If so why? Is the message piety wins out? So why the humor? There's definitely humor in this thing, is it the ridiculousness of life, that even in our best moments we are and can be seen as ridiculous by others? Ovid's definitely got something going here. I have read that Caesar was famous for his sardonic wit. I looked that up to make sure what it was and it was not what I thought it was. Would you call this sardonic?
Cabbage was a lowly vegetable, used in satires of Roman life, is this also sardonic? Is it a satire? Dana, what a hoot on Cato, I had just read that two tsp of apple cider vinegar before a meal will lower blood sugar 4 points. Maybe THAT'S the reason Cato was so sour? hahaha
Barbara asks if they really did put out their best. If you have nothing else and you have just picked a fine cabbage in the garden, would that be as beloved as the "widow's mite" because she had nothing else? OR was Ovid saying something else entirely?
Halcyon and Joan K and Karen mentioned religious beliefs, do they have a choice? They had tons and tons of gods to choose from, is Ovid actually saying piety and simplicity is the way to go when every single thing he puts in here is a direct anathema to a normal Roman of his class. Is Ovid saying to the Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous that their way is not the way?
And Halcyon mentions the love story, and they are remarkably pious and loving, even when the gods don't have much nice to say to them, they get to be priests and not drowned.
more...
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Frybabe, I LOVED your Lego Baucis and Philemon1 There are so many wonderful takes of mythology on the Internet, I've saved that one, thank you.
I'm sure you've all seen this Hail Caesar trailer but when I think of Baucis and Philemon, it's what comes to mind: "Would that it were so simple." If you haven't seen this, enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMUUKtF_BF0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMUUKtF_BF0)
Joan K mentioned the details. I think the story is in the details,myself. The descriptions of the house alone. Just imagine yourself and your own home. The President of the United States is stranded in a snow storm and is going to take dinner with you so he doesn't starve.
Quick, what would you clean up? What would you serve? I can really get caught up in this one. I remember an old Andy Griffith show when some important meeting was going to be held close by and they ended up eating in Andy's kitchen, with Aunt Bee serving humble food, chicken and biscuits, was it, which the "Russians" loved, and creating detente. The message of that program is the same, I think, as Ovid is sending to the Romans with whom he was familiar, in the hallowed halls of the Palatine: simplicity and piety (and maybe creativity) are what counts and you don't.
Their roof is held up by furcas. A forked stick holds the rafters and the point is made when it turns into a temple, Lombardo says,
Forked poles became columns,
The thatch grew yellow and became a golden roof...
The roof which was straw and wattle or whatever, it's home made, is nothing like the elaborate roof structure of the Romans, with elaborate downspouts and tiles whether gilded or not. The fire has nothing but ashes, they can't keep a steady fire, but now with guests, she blows on it to get it started again. Were there leaves? Did she break sticks into small pieces?
What's that old poem: heap on the wood, the wind is chill, we'll keep our Christmas merry, still.
There's no heaping here and no Presidents, and no Ambassadors from Russia, just two unknown travelers at the door.The wine is "of no great age," barely fermented grape juice.
I found particularly poignant the fruit course at the end of the meal:
Then a little space was made
For the dessert: nuts, wrinkled dried dates, plums.
And fragrant apples served in wide baskets
Along with purple grapes just picked from the vine,
A clear white honeycomb was set in the middle.
Besides all this, they brought to the table
Cheerful faces, high spirits, and abundant good will.
Wow.
That's beautiful. What more do you want in the way of a dessert? We ought to read by comparison some of the dinners the Romans Ovid associated with ate to see the contrast, their many courses of exotic food and drink.. The grade of the wine adjusted according to importance of the guest. The silver table settings:(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/boscoreale/Boscoreale3.jpg)When the wine started flowing continually Baucis and Philemon prayed that they might be forgiven for the food they served and the poor surroundings.
Is there irony in this, too?
And then we have the goose episode with them both chasing it. "But the goose was swift on the wing and wore out/ The slow old people trying to catch it, dodging them/ For a long time and finally taking refuge/ With the gods themselves, who told them to let it live. "
Now I did laugh at that and at myself at the same time. I don't know how "old" this couple is. I don't know how "old" we all are here. Apparently the goose has the run of the house and they are trying to catch it. When is the last time YOU tried to catch a barnyard fowl of any kind? It's quite an effort and as Barbara said above they were used as watchdogs (and still are). We had to catch one of our chickens a couple of months ago to treat a wound, and finally got it in the chicken house where it made perfect fools of both of us. Anybody who has ever tried to catch a chicken much less a goose knows this story. It's dear, to me. But did Ovid mean something else?
And this old poor couple, both servants and masters (the Romans ALL had slaves, at least one, unless they were penniless beggars at the door, this is extreme poverty to Ovid's readers)...
They put a cloth on the bench making a couch but they don't recline, oh no, they run around and wipe the table, the ancient form of hospitality, come in, have a bath (I guess they don't have a tub she washes their feet with water they have warmed) have a meal, welcome in, and then tell us your story.
But the wine continues to replenish which is also an ancient concept.
I looked up "motif," to find out what it meant. I was hoping to find an authoritative source like Perdue but they don't mention it. Here;s the first thing I saw on the search page:
A motif is a recurring symbol which takes on a figurative meaning. We see them in books, films, and poems. In fact, almost every text commonly uses the literary device of the motif. A motif can be almost anything: an idea, an object, a concept, a character archetype, the weather, a color, or even a statement.
In sum: lots of questions, no answers:
If that's true the thing is FULL of motifs, but signifying what? Is there one you can pick out?
In our earlier readings of Ovid, the gods have not been exemplary. Why the change now?
And then there's the love story and what love really is. Which shows the greater love--to want to outlive your spouse so as to take care of him or her, or to die at the same time?
What do you think Ovid's attitude toward the gods is from reading this story?
What, in fact, do you think about anything here?
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I have read and then reread this myth many times. I also can't stop thinking about it. Mostly I am struck by Ovid's portrayal of thee "old " couple. Although they were very poor as evidenced by what they ate in the feast and the state of their house and the furniture, they gave of what they had to the "strangers" unlike all their neighbors. And when the gods revealed themselves and Philemon and Baucis were offered anything they wanted, they asked to honor the gods by caring for the temple and to die together. Their generosity and their devotion to the gods and to each other dominate this story.
I remember going to a new church and the members of the congregation kept talking about their various ministries, e.g. working in the soup kitchen, visiting the sick, or running the food bank. I kept thinking inside that I didn't do anything like that and I kept trying to think of what I could work in to my crazy schedule. Then someone asked me about my my life was like. I described a day in the life of a single mother/high schoolteacher. Then they asked me,"Have you ever considered that teaching is your ministry. I started to protest that I couldn't teach all week and then teach Sunday school. "No" said my friend,"I mean that the teaching you do everyday is a ministry." From that day on, my teaching took on new meaning in my life.
It is interesting that the Italian Benecict or Nurisa who lived in the sixth century BC when he found the monasteries that eventually became the Benedictine order, wrote the Rule that the monks follow today. Included in that is a direction that every monk provide hospitality to strangers among their other practices. That tells me that many Romans held hospitality as a high virtue.
Once again we have changing into trees as an act of the gods, yet this time it seems to be a blessing: From here on Philemon and Baucis will be together side by side, just as they asked.
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love the phrase (quoted from memory -- hope I have it right) "they took poverty lightly and so were happy". They were certainly "poor" by upper class Roman standards, but were they poor? They had food, a sturdy roof over their heads, and love.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who loves the goose story.
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I've begun watching that program on Discovery channel "Naked and Afraid." two people are dropped off in the middle of a jungle somewhere with no clothes, no food, and only two tools of their choice. They realize they need five things: shelter, fire, water, food, and to work together in friendship. Most of them suffer and barely squeak through the 21 days, but a few of them thrive, and begin making more elaborate shelter, clothes, more tools etc. They would all call our couple rich.
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My mother had a saying - they are only poor for having no money - and like she also would say - they are only rich for having money - to her there were far more aspects of life, character and skill that made us rich than the measurement of money and what it could buy - just having the skill, knowledge and fortitude to plant and harvest a cabbage to my mother would be more valuable than having the money to buy one or to buy any food grown by another.
These two could not be on the bottom rung of the economic ladder because they had a house and some land - they were not servants. They may not have been the plutocracy but they had to have been skilled if only as self-sufficient farmers.
Since cabbage was used by the Romans as an antidote to prevent or reduce a hangover and the gods were consuming the offered drinks could it have been the host and hostesses way of assuring them good health and a clear head rather than attempting to entertain a couple of drunken visitors...
Mkaren your realization that your work was 'good works' reminds me of growing up and being taught the story of the increasing of talents and how that was doing God's work.
Yep, broke just up from the tail bone - the sacrum - each day a bit more comfortable since that muscle of course was injured and that is what is healing quickly - lots of napping.
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I too liked the story about the goose. It provided a bit of humor and showed that the couple were willing to sacrifice the "guard of their house" for the gods' dinner. I also like the line " It was no matter if you asked for owner or servant there: those two were the whole household: they gave orders and carried them out equally." That line has a simple, straightforward tone like the rest of the story which suits the couple.
I was interested that Philemon asks that gods that he and his wife both be allowed to be priests. "When he had spoken briefly with Baucis, Philemon revealed their joint request to the gods. “We ask to be priests and watch over your temple..." I guess that the duties of watching over the temple were suitable for a woman to carry out as a priestess.
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Interesting Marcie the whole issue of swapping a 'guard' from the earth for the honor of a god who protects and to swap an individual home for a temple - can see traces of the Christian concept of our real home is within the protection of God and our soul resides within which is a temple to God - Easy to see the evolving philosophy to the Christian thinking... or maybe I just see the connection because I am privileged to know what comes next ;)
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MCKAREN: I love the story of realizing that your teaching was your ministry. If only I had thought of that. And the laws of hospitality: how far we have gotten from that. The only remnant I can think of is part of the Jewish Passover service, where the householder goes to the door and asks any passing stranger to come in and partake of the feast. Even that is rarely taken literally now.
BARB: "My mother had a saying - they are only poor for having no money - and like she also would say - they are only rich for having money" Your mother was a wise woman.
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MARCIE: I never thought of the goose as a guard. Of course it was. the blend of pathos and humor here seems to be Onid's touch, doesn't it.
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Do you think we have run out of steam on this myth? Maybe we need to move on.
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Yes, that's a good idea, sorry to be AWOL we have a little visitor here till tomorrow. I still have some thoughts to say on what you've all said but I can say them Sunday afternoon or Monday.
Yes, let's look at Echo and Narcissus next. Here is Echo and Narcissus, a great story for this time of year: http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph3.htm#476975712 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph3.htm#476975712)
Let's start that Easter Monday, but before that, let's all say what we think the moral of THIS story is?
That's a harder question than we might think.
Just ONE, the most important moral. :)
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You have to wonder which came first, Ovid's story about hospitality to strangers or a Roman practice of being hospital to strangers...
A few quotes that point to offering hospitality
“Hospitality means primarily the creation of free space where the stranger can enter and become a friend instead of an enemy. Hospitality is not to change people, but to offer them space where change can take place. It is not to bring men and women over to our side, but to offer freedom not disturbed by dividing lines.”
― Henri J.M. Nouwen
“There is no hospitality like understanding.”
― Vanna Bonta
“Whenever you go on a trip to visit foreign lands or distant places, remember that they are all someone's home and backyard.”
― Vera Nazarian
“True hospitality is marked by an open response to the dignity of each and every person. Henri Nouwen has described it as receiving the stranger on his own terms, and asserts that it can be offered only by those who 'have found the center of their lives in their own hearts'.”
― Kathleen Norris
“Take care to keep open house: Because in this way some have had angels as their guests, without being conscious of it ".
― Hebrews 13:2.”
“As a dinner guest I gratefully eat just about anything that's set before me, because graciousness among friends is dearer to me than any other agenda.”
― Barbara Kingsolver
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BARB: very nice. "“True hospitality is marked by an open response to the dignity of each and every person."
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Metamorphoses, Part II: New Stories:
Echo and Narcissus (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph3.htm#476975712)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/John_William_Waterhouse_-_Echo_and_Narcissus_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg/800px-John_William_Waterhouse_-_Echo_and_Narcissus_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg)
Echo and Narcissus (1903), a Pre-Raphaelite interpretation by John William Waterhouse
Translations Online:
A. S. Kline (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088)
(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)~~~~~ Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden (http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html)~~~~~ Brookes More (http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html)
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Family Trees of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
Greek gods (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm) ~~~~~Roman gods (http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm)
For Your Consideration:
Bk III:339-358 Echo sees Narcissus
Bk III:359-401 How Juno altered Echo’s speech
Bk III:402-436 Narcissus sees himself and falls in love
Bk III:437-473 Narcissus laments the pain of unrequited love
Bk III:474-510 Narcissus is changed into a flower
Spring! And what a good time to talk about narcissus. We all know what a narcissus is, and what an echo is, but did we know their stories?
1. Do you know how Echo originally lost her voice?
2. How do you personally see Echo?
3. IS there a metamorphosis in this story? If so whose is it?
4. Some people have suggested Echo represents Ovid himself. Can you see any way that is possible?
5. What is your first reaction to the real Echo/ Narcissus tale?
Echo and Narcissus click here to read: (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph3.htm#476975712)
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Joan K (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
Marcie (marciei@aol.com) Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com) and ginny (gvinesc@att.net)
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Super thoughts. On Ovid and hospitality, Homer and the ancient Greeks were the first to write about it in Western civilization, and it was handed down.
I don't know why we feel the need to put morals on everything nowadays but it's not just us, in the Medieval times, learned men turned a lot of Ovid's tales into morality tales with morals and symbolism, everything was symbolic, to explain the faith. I seem to recall specifically Daedalus as an example. There's a lot written on After Ovid and his influence on later civilizations.
In fact Milton used this "pagan poem," The Metamorphoses, in his own epic Paradise Lost, transforming and absorging Ovidian themes into his Christian narrative, as in the direct "echo" of Metamorphoses when Milton's Eve first sees her reflection in a clear pool, " according to Genevieve Lively's book, and she also writes that it's been argued that the Freudian narcissistic ego might be an extension of the Ovidian tradition of Narcissus.
I imagine this Echo/ Narcissus poem which to us is one of the most familiar myths, and again is possibly wholly Ovid's, can be interpreted in many ways.
Do you know how Echo originally lost her voice?
How do you personally see Echo?
IS there a metamorphosis in this story? If so whose is it?
Some people have suggested Echo represents Ovid himself. Can you see any way that is possible?
What is your first reaction to the Echo/ Narcissus tale?
Let me put these questions up and a heading and let's see what you think of this very famous story.
But today we turn our attention to the origin of the narcissist. Today we think of Narcissism as something serious, but I wonder if we have any insights more than the ancients did? Here is a pretty strong example and in the midst of the pathos, again a mocking humor.
What do you think?
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Echo is the adolescent me, and every other adolescent girl, who loves first from afar without declaring her love. She is desperate for Narcissus, but is unable to speak to tell him so. She suffers in silence and finally, although it is very difficult, tells Narcissus how she feels, and the wretched boy, not only rejects he but berates her. She hides in the woods but she still loves Narcissus. She grows sick from unrequited love and wastes away. When I first heard this myth in my high school Latin class, I literally cried because I related so much to Echo's plight. Then when I read of Narcissus fate, I cheered. He represented every high school boy who had humiliated me by not returning my love. Sweet revenge. I know there is more to this myth than this, but I still react passionately to it. Phew! Now I can approach this myth in a more dignified and scholarly manner.
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If Liriope was the first to test the truth and the accuracy of his words - the word of Tiresias, who gave faultless answers to people who consulted him - does that then suggest this story takes place before the judgment of Persephone. Which predates the story of Echo and Narcissus to before the Eleusinian mysteries?
Or does first have a Roman legal definition since Ovid was a lawyer, who in the Metamorphoses shows the changes to the legal system under Augustus. Augustus applies public law to private morality and Tiresias is a learned wise man, who also represents a formal vote or a authoritative decree. And so by telling the stories of Tiresias, Ovid shows the legal changes under Augustus.
Augustinian law include a loss of boundaries between the gods and humans and elevates morality laws to the level of the professional law that defined the Republic.
I am not as familiar with terms of Law to make a guess here about the use of the word first - do any of you have a lawyer you can ask... It would be significant if the story of Echo and Narcissus is before the judgment of Persephone which reading up on this tells me that story goes back to the Mycenean period, a thousand years before Augustus.
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Karen, I love that, you've caught it so well: the rejection. Who has not been rejected in one way or another? Here the rejection seems to stem from Narcissus's limited ability, I can't decice which of the two is the more hampered by their own natures?
Tiresias, the blind seer, who recently appeared in Oh Brother Where Art Thou, a take on the Odyssey, apparently gave a prophesy, and like most of the prophesies of the time it didn't make any sense, and could be interpreted many ways.
It seemed to be about Know Yourself. That would seem to be the philosophy of Socrates, but Tiresias seems to be saying that self knowledge will shorten Narcissus's life. But his "knowing" seems to be based on his seeing himself in the mirror of the water. He's not got any particular deep self knowledge, if he had he (could he?) have gotten himself out of his self absorption. Why didn't he? We have many like him today, I think, in our culture to always be and look perfect.
I loved a cartoon in the New Yorker recently. A doctor is having a consultation with a patient. He says I can't make you look young, but I can make you look as if you've had some very expensive plastic surgery. hahahaa
So in a way he's worse than she is? Because he DOES have the ability to change but she does not? I love the contrast between them. And I loved Karen's take on "got you!" when his own self absorption causes his downfall. hahahaa Revenge!
I love the image of his discovering himself in a mirror, that's always such a magic moment to see a dog or a child suddenly realize that's HIM or HER! To know ourselves as others see us.
Happens to me, too. I pass a window and suddenly see this woman and suddenly I realize it's ME. I must say I can be a little critical before that happens in my thoughts. hahahaa I really must do something about my posture.
But Narcissists are always supposedly looking in a mirror. Do you think that's true? I often wonder who looks in mirrors most. Is it people who want to assure themselves they do look ok or is it people who glory in what they look like? (Obviously I'm not one of them!)
What does looking in a mirror mean?
I can't decide who is most at fault here or why? What choice did each of them have? It's pitiful, really, Echo misunderstanding what he's saying.
And so I Died For Love happens here, too.
What sort of environment produces a narcissist? Does anybody know?
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Barbara, If Liriope was the first to test the truth and the accuracy of his words - the word of Tiresias, who gave faultless answers to people who consulted him - does that then suggest this story takes place before the judgment of Persephone.
Echo and Narcissus is in Book III, and the story of Ceres and Proserpina is in Book V, that's a good point, but the order Ovid puts the stories in really is not a significant order of their antiquity, he's got a lot of them mixed up, we've already seen that in one of our former myths, in fact, in two. And you are right, Ceres and Proserpina is one of the oldest myths of mankind. I saw a wonderful presentation on it at one of those conferences with somebody from Berkeley who showed it in all sorts of ancient myths from a wide variety of countries including, I think, Norway. (It's been a long time).
Interesting. Maybe we should read IT next, it's got a lot in it and after all Ceres IS on the State Capitol Dome of Missouri! :)
Ovid was the "first" to say Liriope was the mother of Narcissus, he may be making some kind of point, like he does with the "seeing" verbs when Tiresias is a blind seer.
I don't think it has anything to do with Roman law.
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Ginny thanks but I am still trying to figure it out - not thinking of story placement in the books but rather, on the word first as being the first to address Tiresias as the wise one - so if this story is first and we know Tiresias is part of the story of Persephone than where in the history of man does this put the story of Echo and Narcissus? With that wording it would make this story as old as the Persephone story and yet, it does not have the feel of being a story that old - so then why use the word first - a conundrum - unless it is in the translation - but still then what does first refer to?
I went ahead and read the preceding bit that appears to be more about Tiresias - I find him a compelling figure in the story.
Reading the story I had a flash that I chuckle over - especially on Facebook - how often we simply pass on articles and concepts written or shown in the media - we are all being an Echo - we read something that sounds fascinating or proves a point and all we do is pass it on - is it because what we say that comes from our understanding, we consider not good enough and can be said better only by those with more scholarship so that we simply echo their thoughts?
On the news of the day we seem to put a lot of trust in the media to be unbiased and knowledgeable - and yet, when we hear all the news interpretations of what is going on in the Middle East it is from a political point of view that is supposed to be in the nations best interests until you get to read a few books written by authors from the Middle East and a different story emerges - but like a 'teenage spurned lover' Echo, we pass along anything that fits our political bent that matches our views on being a powerful nation.
In fact even more hilarious is that we act as Echo for political folks who appear to be Narcissistic - oh my have to be careful here - because it would be too easy to get into personalities and our interpretation of them that are in the news.
But then if we too often become Echo and we easily see as attractive those who are narcissistic then where does Narcissus go for information about himself - we are always improving ourselves and there are many books written to help us improve ourself suggesting we look deep to find ourselves rather than being a reflection of what others expect or tell us who we are... I guess as young adults we are an Echo of our family and education.
We are told, until we know who we are we cannot effectively create or advance our own skills and gifts. As to Narcissus seeing himself reflected in waters would make sense since his father was a river god so surely he should find aspects of himself in the water.
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Does looking in the water as a mirror and learning to love what we see really a bad thing? I am wondering if the message of this story has been used by many to moralize as Ginny you point out, the moralization of stories seem to be a preoccupation of the Middle Ages - I am wondering if the message, if any is really in these lines...
Fool, why try to catch a fleeting image, in vain? What you search for is nowhere: turning away, what you love is lost!
I can grab onto that concept of a snap shot look at ourselves in water, a mirror, connecting with others is really a quick look at who we are during that time span however, we change, we grow, and what we look for is love. To dwell on reflected love, regardless observed in any so called mirror, is a 'current glimpse' and therefore, the love we think is there is fleeting, a love that changes, love as we understand it, we see it at that moment and then the moment is gone.
I am thinking of how many bask in the reflection of a sports team so that their feeling of well being is up or down based on the teams success or lack of - and yet, we see many a fan who identifies in pride that association regardless win or lose - as if the rippling water of change does not affect their feeling of love and pride.
This bit reminds me of the many lost in the forest so to speak and the many who search for their goodness as a search for God - the many who wrote of their experience and today we call them Father's of the Church or Spiritual leaders or Theologians. Lost in the forest is often young people who lived their life as an echo of their family values adding the values learned in the classroom but who have no clue who they are and like Narcissus must take time to look and find if only a fleeting view of who they are...
...holding his arms out to the woods, he asks, ‘Has anyone ever loved more cruelly than I? You must know, since you have been a chance hiding place for many people. Do you remember in your life that lasts so many centuries, in all the long ages past, anyone who pined away like this?
And then as we age and life has dealt us some blows so that we no longer view life through the eyes of a sixteen year old and yet, we want to feel the love that we remember receiving as a child - don't we say, Whoever you are come out to me! Why do you disappoint me, you extraordinary boy? Where do you vanish when I reach for you? Surely my form and years are not what you flee from, and I am one that the nymphs have loved!
In our maturity don't we all look in the mirror and ask, Where do (did) you fly to? And as we become weakened in age don't we silently call out, ‘Alas, in vain, beloved boy!’
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In death he gazes into the Stygian waters - his father is the river god so is he gazing on his father - and then to become in death a white petaled flower surrounding a yellow heart suggests some symbolism -
A white robe is worn in mourning in ancient Greece and Rome indicating purity, chastity the strength of the spirit over the flesh - hmm sounds like a view of Narcissus that has value
I wonder if our view of Narcissus as symbolic of the narcissistic personality comes about from the guilt placed on self adornment and self pride that was rife in Christian thought so that one aspect of this story was used to show how futile and fleeting our looks which grew into this current obsession with the narcissistic personality. hmm
Further symbolism says, in Greece white symbolized, mourning, love, life and death.
Yellow - the light of the sun, intellect, intuition, faith and goodness and a heart is the center of a being, the central wisdom of feeling as opposed to the head-wisdom of reason. The heart is compassion, understanding, the 'secret place', love, charity, it contains the life-blood.
Flowers portray the fragile quality of childhood or the evanescence of life. Particular to Rome flowers represent Funerary, continuing life in the next world...
Flowers like the color white have many Christian meanings but we are reading of a time before Christianity therefore to pull out those meanings that would apply.
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BARB: "In fact even more hilarious is that we act as Echo for political folks who appear to be Narcissistic."
Good point! This story gives us a lot to think about.
My first reaction to the story was less profound. "Boy, Ovid is really into a mood, satirizing people he knows." Everyone knows the person who talks all the time, and wont let you get a word in edgewise. We all want to turn them into echoes who will only agree with everything we say. And who doesn't know a person who sees and loves only themselves.
Is Ovid feeling a bit neglected here. Nobody is paying attention to what HE is saying. Maybe his latest book wasn't selling too well.
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what about Echo and Narcissus as a couple. Surely they fit together perfectly, both responding only to Narcissus. What about our own relationships? how much of Echo is in them? how much of Narcissus? how much of true interaction?
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Where is everyone?
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Know the feeling. You'll like it. it has a lot to say.
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I too have been wondering what was so bad about Narcissus rejecting Echo (and apparently everyone else who had pursued him for his beauty). When Echo trapped him he apparently hadn't yet "discovered himself" as was warned in the prophetic vision. So he wasn't "in love with himself" when he was rebuffing or ignoring potential suitors ... but he had "intense pride."
"One year the son of Cephisus had reached sixteen and might seem both boy and youth. Many youths, and many young girls desired him. But there was such intense pride in that delicate form that none of the youths or young girls affected him."
What did the ancient Romans think of pride? Why does Ovid fault Narcissus for his pride?
Perhaps Ovid wasn't clear in his initial description of Narcissus. His original description of "intense pride" later turns into "scorning." Narcissus runs away from Echo and probably too harshly (even though she was the one who flung herself on him and put her arms around his neck) he says "Away with these encircling hands! May I die before what’s mine is yours." He'd rather die than give her what she wants?
" As Narcissus had scorned her, so he had scorned the other nymphs of the rivers and mountains, so he had scorned the companies of young men. Then one of those who had been mocked, lifting hands to the skies, said ‘So may he himself love, and so may he fail to command what he loves!’ Rhamnusia, who is the goddess Nemesis, heard this just request. "
Because he scorned everyone else, the goddess Nemesis thinks it just that Narcissus too feel the pain of unrequited love.
Is there something about beautiful people that makes others perceive them as self-centered? Is beauty used as some type of metaphor in this story??? What do you all think?
EDIT: Just so you all know, I'm sincerely asking these questions because I don't understand them. They are not just "discussion questions." :-)
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Wow and yes, there are many who think they know what is best for someone that they see as attractive - folks like to identify with someone attractive - not only back in High School when the Football player and Cheerleader were the attractive people but look how we even have books written about attractive people as something special - there was an expression that now I forgot about the good looking people who seemed to attract wealth and live in high fashion so that they become similar to years ago a movie star that we all had ideas of how they should live and who they should love.
I am remembering the fuss with Ingrid Bergman and there were others - so yes, marcie I can see how the story is about a young good looking boy who has not yet found himself and others including Echo think he should find someone to pair with without honoring that he needs to find himself. Older folks do this by going on retreats but teens must do it which means not hanging out with the 'gang' but reading and contemplating and day dreaming and for some lucky rural kids, go fishing.
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The new issue of People Magazine is full of references to Narcissus, as the front page article is on Donald Trump. I am rethinking my ideas of narcissism after reading Marcie's excellent questions:
What did the ancient Romans think of pride? Why does Ovid fault Narcissus for his pride?
What a good question! And Narcissus is not the only one faulted for pride, either. Or for rejection of a lover. Look at Orpheus! He spurned the love of other women after his wife died and for that they tore him apart. Seems most unfair!
Something is going on here, but I am not sure what it IS.
The Romans were certainly not bashful humble people. Look at Augustus as an example. He wrote the Res Gestae, which was a sort of "Look what I did," and he had it inscribed for his tomb entrance in bronze tablets, and it was copied all over the world, in fact those are the only traces of it left. They were ancestor and heritage proud, and wanted to leave their mark on posterity. Cicero writes about that all the time. Very status conscious, even to the reviled practice of having one wine for the more important dinner guests and serving plonk to the lesser guests. I would say personally that pride was definitely not a sin but a virtue among the ancient Romans.
I wonder if, as in the case of Narcissus, the real one, good looks can be a curse. Could HIS problem have been not the pride but the scorning of Echo? He was fascinated by himself, and as Barbara says we all know people like that. I've heard that it's more difficult for a stunningly beautiful woman to find dates, etc., (I wouldn't know hahahaa) than others, but maybe extreme beauty can be a curse.
Joan K: My first thought was, "Boy, Ovid is really into a mood, satirizing people he knows." Everyone knows the person who talks all the time, and wont let you get a word in edgewise. We all want to turn them into echoes who will only agree with everything we say. And who doesn't know a person who sees and loves only themselves.
None of that ever occurred to me! And I bet you're not far from the truth. It seems that several of you see Ovid's hand in this, the creator, through the things he says. I have a feeling that would please him greatly, but who knows? Who are these people, then, being satirized? Could it be Augustus and Ovid himself?
Some scholars have postulated Ovid here is represented by Echo, and I will admit I have had a hard time seeing it. But Echo has lost the power for her voice due to punishment by the goddess Juno, for something she had no part in and no culpability with: she talked to Juno which covered up some other shenanigans Jupiter did, and that was her downfall).
If you look at Ovid, according to him, half of his problems were the "error" he did, a carmen (a poem) and an "error," he made, not of his own fault, being at the wrong place at the wrong time, and that "echos" (sorry :)) that of Echo, exactly. And some people think (because nobody knows) that he saw something he shouldn't have concerning Augustus. If that were true and even tho it's hard to extrapolate, if he wrote this and reversed sexes and made Augustus the Narcissus (which was an old story to start with but it sure fits), and himself the now voiceless Echo, creativity destroyed, only left to echo others, then I can see it, actually. Perhaps in losing the attention of Augustus and in his hateful banishment (tho he did write more poems) he felt he had lost his...mojo or creative spark? Or genius, and was left a poor echo of his former self in HIS mind.
Authors seem to be such odd creatures, sometimes. Arthur Conan Doyle hated Sherlock Holmes, killed him off, and his mother made him bring him back. He wanted to be known for his other work, his serious supernatural studies. E.F. Benson wrote the Mapp and Lucia series as a lark, he was a serious scholar, and on and on.
And Barbara, great points about the benefits of attractiveness. They have done several studies showing that the attractive children in elementary school have a real heads up over those less attractive, why this should be I have no idea.
Do we live in a Narcissistic world today? What is this obsession over appearance? Even the Presidential Candidates have entered the fray. It sometimes appears in our lives attractiveness is all. I could simply not believe the photographs of Gloria Vanderbilt with her son Anderson Cooper, there's to be a new special. The woman is 92 years old, she looks 30. More power to HER but I'm just saying, she looks a lot better than I do. Kim Kardashian posts new nude photos of herself, selfies again. Mother of two children, nude photos. Her sister is shown at an Easter Egg Hunt taking selfies of her own face. Have we evolved at ALL? Or for the worse?
Marcie asks about metaphors. If poems are symbols that might be a good statement. WAS he that clever? I wonder if, thinking about Joan K's points again, those reading this in the early years of the Empire recognized anybody, what an interesting thought. WE don't, (tho we call Donald Trump a narcissist 2000 years later).
But echo is still with us too: my grandson was astounded when we were in Grand Central Station a year or so ago to be able to whisper, the whispering corner which some very nice people directed us to, to whisper across this gigantic vaulted corridor full of talking people and train announcements and noise, and the person all the way across the hall could hear it clearly if they stood just so.
Even in our own society today, which do you think we consider to be the greatest error, to be an echo yes man or a narcissist?
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Barbara, I think you're right that people do tend to "rate" attractive people higher, though I also think that some tend to see attractive people as aloof or proud. Ginny, you've provided a lot of helpful information and analysis that I didn't know about. I appreciate the background on Ovid.
Good question about what people in our society would condemn more... being an echo or a narcissist. I think most would see the echo as weak and the narcissist as stronger. In the U.S. we seem to admire strength.
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Or the perception thereof (of strength).
In a way being online is a little like being an "echo," when you think about it.
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Echo and Narcissus represent an excess of two qualities that people seem to value: speaking and pride. We discourage their opposites. After all we don't want our children to grow up without a voice or without pride. Those who are introverts or very humble are often suspect. Society tends to look down upon those who do not "speak out," "join in the discussion," or "offer an opinion." Also, not standing up for oneself, allowing someone to walk all over you, or not proclaiming one's accomplishments may keep you from a job, an honor, or label you as "a push over." So, in raising out children, we encouraging speaking up and actively promote good self-esteem and pride. Ovid portrays Echo as that adolescent who "speaks up top much and too often" which draws punishment from the gods and Narcissus as totally absorbed and passionately in love with himself, which kills him. So, in our own time and in Ovid's, it seems "drawing the line" and avoiding extremes is what society desires and we are always walking that "fine line."
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MCKAREN: "Echo and Narcissus represent an excess of two qualities that people seem to value: speaking and pride. We discourage their opposites."
My goodness, I didn't think of that -- you're absolutely right. So " in our own time and in Ovid's, it seems "drawing the line" and avoiding extremes is what society desires and we are always walking that "fine line."
And both Echo and Narcissus are punished and mocked by having to go from one extreme to the other -- from too much talk to too little, from too much pride to being humbled by his "beloved's" indifference (and presumably the scorn of others).
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GINNY:"Some scholars have postulated Ovid here is represented by Echo, and I will admit I have had a hard time seeing it."
I had a hard time seeing it too. but now, I think I do. Perhaps Echo is not who Ovid IS but who Augustus sees him as. Augustus sees him as talking too much (and perhaps seeing to much) and needing to be reduced to a mere echo, like A's other courtiers. Now Augustus (now seen as Narcissis) is punished when Ovid (Echo) has to stand by and watch A destroy himself , instead of being able to help him see his mistake
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My goodness, Karen and Joan K, the depth of your understanding of this thing staggers me. I could not have written in my wildest dreams any of the three of those. It's this kind of thing that makes me very grateful for our Books discussions here and makes them so worth reading.
Thank you. I think those are the ultimate coda of this story, I keep reading all three of them again.
Just LOVE it! I'm so glad we're doing this.
It's been suggested now that we turn our attention to something we've long talked about but never done, but this time it's not Vergil, it's OVID! Ovid (why?) also undertook AFTER Vergil, to tell the story of Aeneas. What will HE stress? Let's take a few days off and reconvene on Monday, April 11, with the Trojan War:
It's true that we're skipping around, but such great stuff we're reading, let's tackle OVID'S version of the Trojan War and the Aeneid:
Ovid, as is his wont, has thrown us into the Trojan War with little notice and is figuring instead of Homer's account, on the side players and stories.
Let's start with the death of Achilles: (these are referenced in the heading under Kline, and each is clickable there. Hopefully in a few days we can put up clickables to these.
How much do YOU know about the Aeneid? What a story it is, what an epic! It's got everything anybody could ever want, "to hell and back," the Golden Bough, the Trojan War, and the Founding of Rome! Let's give it a try (remember the Kline is annotated, too) and bring what you do know to the discussion about background on April 11, we're going to need it.
Hope to see you here April 11, let's try to read
Bk XII:579-628 The death of Achilles http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph12.htm#486225997 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph12.htm#486225997)
Bk XIII:1-122 The debate over the arms: Ajax speaks
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph13.htm#486898044 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph13.htm#486898044)
Bk XIII:123-381 The debate over the arms: Ulysses speaks
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph13.htm#486898045 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph13.htm#486898045)
and see what we make of that.
Here are the stories after that:
Bk XIII:382-398 The death of Ajax
Bk XIII:399-428 The fall of Troy
Bk XIII:429-480 The deaths of Polydorus and Polyxena
Bk XIII:481-575 Hecuba’s lament and transformation
Bk XIII:576-622 Aurora and the Memnonides
Bk XIII:623-639 Aeneas begins his wanderings
Bk XIII:640-674 The transformation of Anius’s daughters.
Bk XIII:675-704 The cup of Alcon
Bk XIII:705-737 Aeneas’s journey to Sicily.
Such excitement I can't imagine! We're finally doing "An" Aeneid but what will we think and why write another version? And who ARE all these people he's talking about?
See you on the 11th!
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Sounds good. how much do you want us to read for Monday?
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Speaking of Homer, everyone who reads him remembers his description of the "wine dark sea." Now a scientist claims that he wrote that because people of his time could not see the color "blue."
It seems many languages are late in adding a word for "blue" to their language. At first, there are only words for black and white. Then red is added. Then green and orange. Blue is added last.
A study was done in a tribe that had no word for blue in their language. They either couldn't distinguish it from green, or had great trouble.
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These three in red in the post above, I think, will give us a great start: (On Thursday I will be able I think to change the heading to include only them):
Bk XII:579-628 The death of Achilles http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph12.htm#486225997 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph12.htm#486225997)
Bk XIII:1-122 The debate over the arms: Ajax speaks
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph13.htm#486898044
(http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph13.htm#486898044)
Bk XIII:123-381 The debate over the arms: Ulysses speaks
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph13.htm#486898045 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph13.htm#486898045)
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FASCINATING on the "wine dark sea!" I remember staring at the sea in Greece and trying in vain to see the wine color. At one point I convinced myself I had. hahahaa I'm blue/ green color blind so all that makes perfect sense to me!
Of course Homer was supposed to be blind.
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Perhaps Homer was writing of the intensity of the color rather than the hue.
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Yes, I can see the intensity being the wine dark - not many liquids that are that dark and when the sea is angry or before dark it gets almost black with little reflected blue because if the sun is not shinning brightly the sea is not blue but really dark like a cask of Burgundy or other strong red wine. Also, as the sun dips here in the south during summer it is a hot deep red that mixed with reflected deep dark blue could for a minute or two achieve a wine red appearance.
But then also what was the atmosphere Homer was attempting to relay so that as a poet just saying dark sea describes it with no romance to the adventure. I guess I'm surprised at all these scholars who are pulling apart a poem and attempting to make it realistically correct as if reading a scientific paper.
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BARB: "I guess I'm surprised at all these scholars who are pulling apart a poem and attempting to make it realistically correct as if reading a scientific paper."
I admit, fanatic bird watcher that I am, that I do that with his descriptions of birds. Most of his descriptions of their behavior are so accurate, that when I see a howler (like sandpipers nesting in trees), I think "Homer would never have written that -- it must be the translator.
Sure enough, I followed some up when we were reading the Iliad and found that some of the bird names he uses are only found in his work, and the translator has to guess what bird he meant.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/aeneas/Ajazandachillesplayingcheckers.jpg)
Amphora by Exekias, Achilles and Ajax engaged in a game, c.540-530 BC, Vatican Museums, Vatican City.
Ovid Story for this Week:
Part I: April 11-17:
Bk XII:579-628 The death of Achilles http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph12.htm#486225997 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph12.htm#486225997)
Bk XIII:1-122 The debate over the arms: Ajax speaks
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph13.htm#486898044 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph13.htm#486898044)
Bk XIII:123-381 The debate over the arms: Ulysses speaks
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph13.htm#486898045 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph13.htm#486898045)
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Welcome back!
No, despite appearances to the contrary, we haven't fallen through the rabbit hole into Wonderland but it's hard to convince anybody of that if they've read our new selection for the week.
Perhaps it would be better to start with ONLY Part I this week, the Death of Achilles (see heading above this post for the link). This is the very end of Book 12.
What IS that? Why should we start here?
THIS is Ovid's take on Homer's Iliad. Although the story of the Trojan War "officially" begins on line 80 of Book 12, it's obscured by grisly details (see below) as Ovid decides to do his own take on it, and he resumes with the Iliad story in the death of Achilles. Once he's through with this anecdote, this little vignette about arguing over armor, he's ready to dispense with the entire Trojan War and take on the other literary giant, Vergil and his Aeneid. We'll need to look hard for Aeneas, however, his plot line is severely compromised by all the "stories" Ovid finds more interesting, the diverting tales and seques he wants to expound on. We're in for a wild ride.
Do you recognize any of the characters here in "The Death of Achilles" from the Trojan War and are the "events" spoken of here any you know?
If not, let's suss them out together and see how/if at all Ovid's take jibes with what we know.
Ajax and Ulysses (Odysseus) are arguing over a suit of armor which Achilles owned. Here are some random questions in advance we might want to be on the lookout for as we read all the sections:
---What was special about this armor of Achilles? Why do they all want it?
---As usual in any verbal argument, you find out more about the person arguing than anything else. We'll want to be on the lookout when we begin those passages for character revelations: if you had to tell the police about either Ajax or Ulysses's character, how would you describe either of them?
--Do you see any reverence at all for Homer's Iliad here? Why or why not?
---The story of the Trojan War actually starts back on line 80+ in Book 12, but is immediately diverted by Achilles's attack on Cygnus, in great detail, and is then further derailed by other exceedingly gruesome horrid stories around the campfire (literally), centaurs, the metamorphosis of Cygnus into a swan, ambling stories told sitting around a campfire, many featuring Ovid's own creations, till the plot picks up again with the Death of Achilles. Is THIS what Homer did in the Iliad?
---- When we think of Achilles we think of one body part in particular, what is missing here in the tale of Apollo in a cloud directing the fatal shot?
---Who ARE these people? Can we make any sense of this story? Who is:
-----the son of Peleus?
-----Hector
-----Paris
-----Priam
-----the grandson of Aeacus
-----Tartarus
-----Diomedes
-----Oilean Ajax
-----Agamemnon
-----Menelaus
-----Telamonian Ajax
In short, what's going on here? And why does Ovid think we know who he's talking about?
What, if anything, can you make of this?
PS: Tomorrow they are auctioning off at Christies in NYC what appear to be two hoplite helmets such as Achilles would have worn. If any of you have won the lottery, pick one up for us?
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Iliadend.jpg)
:)
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I was browsing books on Amazon yesterday and was thinking how tired I am getting of books that are based in some way on Pride and Prejudice: prequels, sequel, focusing on another character, modernizing, simplifying, and the list goes on. This may be because it is such a great piece of literature of the desire to draw all those who read the original novel to now buy the clever repeating of some element of text. Ovid seems to be doing the same thing with his version. I am needing to research to discover why he is doing this and I am fascinated to discover that some of what he writes originates with him. I am also picking up that this is somehow related to Ovid's relationship with Augustus. Right now, I just have impressions and question. I need to really dig.
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Interesting observation about Jane Austin - as to Ovid - most of his tales are the Greek myths reworked with the Roman names - wondered about that - when and why did the Romans rename these Greek gods...
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Karen, you're right on Augustus.
On the redoing of famous stories, there wasn't that much being published. It wasn't like Jane Austen clones in paperback, as it was there was Homer and it was an Oral Tradition and then there was? ....Homer and Hesiod wrote in Greek so what was the Roman going to do for his (renamed) gods? He'd tell the stories over the campfire, orally. They seem to never have tired of them.
Homer was the first to write them down somewhere around 700 B.C., but he wrote in Greek. There were precious few Latin translations, I can think of one, until Ovid, so a lot of the stories were being passed down as folk tales, and then Ovid takes on the two biggest Epic Writers, Homer and Vergil.
It MAY be that our reading of the Iliad here was too long ago, the Odyssey a little more recent, for us to be able to relate to these now, we might want to read something else first, there's always Atalanta, which is not a very well known story to US.
OR, let's do Pyramis and Thisbe, it's Babylonian?
What do you all think? Would they be more enjoyable with less need to reference? Sort of stand on their own as it were?
Meanwhile Karen mentioned elsewhere that she really liked the new Simonson book, and that Latin and the Aeneas play a big part in it, that definitely sounds like a coming book club discussion, to me.
How about Pyramus and Thisbe? It is not a myth at all. It's set in Babylon so is thought to be of that origin, nobody knows anything else, but Ovid presents it for his own purposes, and then a well known playwright took it over, but Ovid's is the original.
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Ginny I like the idea of doing Pyramus and Thisbe - this one we have done many times as well as by many adventure authors and it is familiar so that I am not sure I can pull any more out of the story -
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Great. I think there MAY be a little bit more here than we have delved into in the past, but we can move on to some lesser known perhaps stories. We were having a great time and discussion with those and there are plenty more out of his 250 storehouse of stories canon here.
Suits me fine. I'll need a few days to do something new here, get up the links, etc., how about starting Friday?
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OK by me, although I wouldn't mind chattering a bit about the death of Achilles and the armor argument in the meanwhile.
I was struck in the death of Achilles at how little there was of it! Homer describes the length of even the most minor soldier in great detail and gives them their moment of honor. An honorable death was important to the greeks and worth celebrating.
yet here is Achilles, one of the greatest heroes of the war, and all we get is "Paris Shot him -- end of story". And then we see the other two great heroes, Ajax And Ulysses, at their spiteful childish worst, hurling insults at each other. "You think you're so great, but you're not! Nanny Nanny Boo Boo."
Am I seeing a little jealousy on Ovid's part? "You think Homer's (Virgil's?) heroes are so great, but they're not!"
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Oh what a good idea, Joan K! Let's do exactly that!
You all frighten me, how you see through Ovid, I don't see it myself half the time but had read about this one.
Hahaha, If you think THIS is jealous, wait till you see what he does to the Aeneid.
But you are absolutely right. In the Iliad, Achilles had had two major deaths to react to and the reaction was unreal by our standards. First his friend Patroclus, that's what got him back in the battle finally. Patroclus must be honored. Then in retailiation he drags Hector around and around the city, as you say, dishonor, and keeps it up until Hector's father pleads with him to give him the body of his son, so he can properly bury it.
Maybe because Achilles dishonored Hector Ovid decided to dishonor him?
Huge funeral games for Patroclus as I recall. I need to look that up again, that's off the cuff. . There weren't too many ways to get to be a Greek Hero and if you neglected the proper obsequies the hero would not be one, extremely important. For one thing he would not go to the realms of the blessed, where, apparently even the heroes wandered around fretfully, if Agamemnon is any example. He, you remember, asked Aeneas, why did my wife kill me?
We might someday want to read the Aeneid, it's totally full of great stuff.
And pfft, the great Achilles is dead. Not a thing about his vulnerable body part, just gone. The main character of Homer's Iliad, all those books, was it 24? Wiped out with no fanfare and nothing else. There are more important stories to tell. I can't decide if Ovid is some kind of early Monty Python or what he is.
It could very well be Ovid's taking shots at Homer and the Iliad! We skipped (and wisely I think) the part where he makes the entire Trojan War akin to a drunken brawl at a wedding.
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And coming up on Friday the 16th:
Pyramus and Thisbe:
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/ThisbeWaterhouseJohnWilliam1909.jpg)
Thisbe by John William Waterhouse 1909
Bk IV:55-92 Arsippe tells the story of Pyramus and Thisbe
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205189 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205189)
Bk IV:93-127 The death of Pyramus
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205190 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205190)
Bk IV:128-166 The death of Thisbe
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205191 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205191)
Till then we can talk as we like about Achilles. Kind of fun!
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I've never read Aeneid.
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NEW!
Pyramus and Thisbe:
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/ThisbeWaterhouseJohnWilliam1909.jpg)
Thisbe by John William Waterhouse 1909
Bk IV:55-92 Arsippe tells the story of Pyramus and Thisbe
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205189 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205189)
Bk IV:93-127 The death of Pyramus
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205190 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205190)
Bk IV:128-166 The death of Thisbe
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205191 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205191)
What do you Think: Questions for Consideration or add your own:
"She liked this last one (short story)
Because it was not yet well known, and so she began,
Telling her yarn while her wool spun into thread."
1. It would probably be difficult in 2016 to find somebody who did not know this type of story, yet how is it different from the ones you know? Which one do you prefer?
"Pyramus and Thisbe, he the loveliest of boys,
She the most beautiful girl in the Orient..."
2. What else do we learn about these characters? Would you call them well developed? Why or why not? How DO we learn more about them?
"Jealous wall, why do you stand
Between lovers? Would it be asking too much
For you to let us embrace, or at least open enough
To allow us to kiss?"
3. What one element in this very short story stands out the most for you?
4. What was the narrator's purpose in telling this story?
5. How is the love in this story different from that of the one of Narcissus?
6.This story is original with Ovid. Why is it not a myth?
7. Why does Pyramus pull out the sword from his wound?
8. Who is Ninus and where is his tomb?
9. What is odd about the two bodies being buried in the same urn?
10. What are the metamorphoses in this story?
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A lot of people haven't read the actual Aeneid. They're more likely to have read the Odyssey and the Iliad but not the Aeneid. I think for those interested in ancient cultures, that's a big gap, and I think it would be fun to fill it. It would take a long time and it would be something people would need to commit to, but we'd all learn a lot of stuff we can use in our lives. We read summaries of the Aeneid in the Latin classes but not all of it.
Talking about squabbling which of course the Trojan War WAS, the influence of that struggle has resonated throughout history.
Here's (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/GalliaGlanumMausolemuJulii40BC.jpg) The Mausoleum of the Julii
Mausoleum of the Julii (about 40 B.C) which is in Provence, France, at a place called Glanum.
This funeral monument has on one of the lower sides on the west face- a scene from the Iliad and Trojan War, the Greeks and Trojans fighting for the body of Patroclus.
And what has that to do with us here? Achilles would not fight. He was angry at something the leader Agamemnon did, he had dissed him, and so Achilles, having sailed all that way from Greece to Troy and having had the finest suit of armor possible made for him, a :"magic" suit from Peleus, he sat in his tent as it shows on the vase above, playing checkers with Ajax.
The Greeks consequently lost and were beaten back to their ships on the coast but Achilles played on. Patroclus his friend, in desperation, put on the armor and sallied forth to be killed. Hector , the Trojan who killed him, put on the armor and wore it in a ceremony, whereupon Achiles, enraged, entered the battle in a new suit of armor made by Vulcan (there are instructions all over the internet on how to make your own suit should you desire) , but which suit of armor was it they are arguing ovoer?
Achilles ended up dissing Hector by dragging his body around Troy.
We know all that, you say?
The argument of Ajax and Ulysses over Achilles's suit of armor is entirely Ovid. It does not appear in the Iliad. Neither does the death of Achilles. It's new.
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I real The Iliad on my own years and years ago. I remember being a little bored with it at the time. I was a bit appalled that men would go fight a long war over a woman and definitely wasn't into anything that smacked of romance. Anyway, I'll have to go read The Iliad again. I think I'd get a lot more out of it the second time round. Achilles death was wasn't in it? That's a surprise. Maybe I picked up the notion that it was from all the other myth stories about him (not to mention the movie, Troy).
I'd love to read the Aeneid. We spent months on The Jewel in the Crown with a small but dedicated group of readers. I believe we did all four of the books and then Staying On too. Well, to the point, I think we can do it, but expect a small group.
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I'd love to read it with you.
The death of Achilles is new? where was the story about the Achilles' heel? I remember reading it.
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In the debate, either Ajax or Ulysses implies that being killed by such a bad warrior as Paris really lowers Achilles status as a hero, even though it was a long range shot that only worked because aided by a god. That's kind of rough. By that standard, modern soldiers killed by bombs or mortars would never achieve hero status. what would Ovid make of modern warfare, that almost never involves hand to hand combat?
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What did we read that was all about the details of the war - going into the experience at sea when Paris takes Helen and her experience with snakes in the temple and the Greeks on the beach before the war begins - whatever that was is where I remember reading about Achilles - something about a brother or friend or someone in a tent he visited at night before the battle and women mourning the dead. I can see in my minds eye what ever we read it was written as an epic poem. Do not think it was the story of Odysseus that ends with his returning and testing his wife.
OK another question in my files for some reason and goodness only knows why - I found this - they are supposed all be the major Greek Gods but no names - you are supposed to know who they are by their 'hats' 'helmets' 'campaign hat' 'chapeau' 'headgear' whatever - the thing on their heads... anyhow I have not looked at enough ancient statues to have a clue - any ideas anyone...?
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/7b9deb167e58fdb45217291ac1979be3/tumblr_o5jippYsPj1qia38so1_400.jpg)
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What do you say, Ginny?
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Well, the death of Achilles is not in the Iliad and neither is the argument over his armor. Ovid is the one discussing it, and he's created an argument over it which shows the character of each man, it actually seems to give us a sort of slant into how Ovid's mind works. And I think the arguments are interesting.
By "new, " I meant the argument is new to him, his creation. I was surprised, myself, that he didn't make much of the Achilles heel thing. Just pffft.
Frybabe, you'd love the Lombardo, it's a long way from boring. Id love to read the Aeneid, too, and if it were a small group, who cares? I hated I missed the saga of the Jewel in the Crown, I loved that series and books, so this might make a fun thing for our 20th anniversary. We'd have to see who, if anybody else is interested. Joan is interested, too, (Yay!) so we have three here. I like the idea. Those things are SO much fun.
We could start in the Fall and lead it the way we do now, if people are willing.
As to the illustration of the various gods, I have no idea who they might be representing. I've never made a study of headgear and none of it looks unusual except the figure within the helmet of the woman.
Somewhere there has to be attribution to that illustration, who did it, and then we could hopefully find out who he is representing. I'd like to know, myself. Where did you get it, Barbara? It's pretty and looks quite old.
That's a good question, Joan, on modern warfare. I often wonder what any of the ancient warriors would have thought of drones and missiles and where they would fit if they had to go to war again under these situations. In fact I wonder about Patton.
The conversations these adversaries had in ancient days before a battle never cease to amaze me. I can't imagine Patton and Rommel meeting to converse or Hitler and Roosevelt before a battle, yet accounts of Roman warfare, for instance, are full of such instances.
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Those drawings remind me of a field trip I once took with some Furman students to see two exhibits which had come from Pompeii and Stabiae in Atlanta. It was a wonderful day and everybody was having a wonderful time when we came upon an epitaph on a tomb which appeared to be quite easy to read so naturally everybody wanted to know what it said, and they were enjoying making guesses, etc. And they turned to me for the answers. hahahaa
Epigraphy is not my strong suit, there's a lot involved in it and there's a lot of background that has to be known first, and time to suss it out, and this one was unusual, but I know somebody who is an expert on it, so I took a photo of it on the iphone and shot it to him and hoped when his classes were over before we left he might say something about it, because he's a nice guy.
Well about an hour later here it came. I was excited. It said, and I quote, "That could be ANYTHING!" hahahahaa
I never have forgotten that. :)
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could be nothing and I have no clue where it came from - it was among my saved pictures - trying to look up the statues of Greek gods and I came up with this that maybe it could be the second to last or second in from the right
it is the Head of Ares - the second head view is from a Roman web site where he is called Mars
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/c4/ea/58/c4ea5875194dcba539d6ca3bcdf0f92c.jpg) (http://www.roman-empire.net/religion/pics/mars.jpg)
And then this bodes for the possibility the picture is hogwash - it is a reproduced helmet with the sphinx symbol
(https://itsallgreeklondon.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/5-a-more-battle-scarred-version.jpg)
The hat or helmet or whatever is right for Vulcanus being in the center - all the pictures show him in this shaped hat so maybe the one in the center is Vulcanus - it must be because found the second from a Roman site saying he is Vulcanus
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/Vulkan_-Thorvaldsen_-_Rosenberg.jpg/498px-Vulkan_-Thorvaldsen_-_Rosenberg.jpg) (http://www.roman-empire.net/graphics/vat/gods/vulcan-01.gif)
Aha - its gotta be - the hat is so unmistakable - Mithras, god of light - second in from the left
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Mithra_sacrifiant_le_Taureau-005.JPG/325px-Mithra_sacrifiant_le_Taureau-005.JPG) (https://futureworldblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/diy-religion.jpg)
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The first on the right the headdress looks too much like achilles and the more I read he was an important figure to the Greeks - problem the headdress looks about right but he shows no beard - the only other I found so far is the goddess of wisdom who has a similar headdress but of course no beard - this one is still a question for me and then the one in the middle with the curly hair and short curly beard and no helmet.
(http://fromdortmund.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/greek-statue.jpg) (http://media.credoreference.com/mcgods2004/fig_ACHILLES_fig03.jpg)
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Hahaha talk about rolling on the floor laughing - put in Google 'greek admired gods' and look what came up - I can't believe it - so I had one right but attached it to the wrong head hahaha
Well the mystery is not only solved but it fits with the conversation about the Trojan war...
(http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/lookandlearn-preview/M/M083/M083211-88.jpg)
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I'll be darned! You've solved it! Super job!
They aren't gods, though, are they? They're all characters of the Trojan war. Heroes, as the title implies, some of them. From both sides.
But none of them Greek or Roman gods.
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"Heroes, as the title implies, some of them"
Interesting to see Paris included in the "heroes", after seeing him sneered at by Ovid.
Who would you have given the armor to: the big strong giant: maybe not too bright and a little childish, but loyal to the end, and boy if you want heads bashed in, he's your guy?
Or the wily fox who defeated the Trojans with his brain, but maybe thought sometimes instead of acting?
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Slow in here today - last we heard Ginny was having problems with her communication devises including her phone - my guess is they are all on the same connection so if one goes the all go - hopefully it will be fixed today but if not starting off may end up being delayed - not sure what Ginny had in mind to get us going on this next myth but it is a familiar story.
As to the story of the Trojan war - someone remarked about all this conflict over a woman - I too thought that way till the last couple of years - my guess, it is about the tribal nature of early civilizations that may have even been at the heart of Anthony and Cleopatra with the Romans not having the same value for tribal purity.
I've read at least a half dozen books now that all talk about the value placed on 'Tribal Purity' among those in the Middle East and one author explains in great detail how young men look in the mirrors lining the walls of the many new buildings especially in places like Dubai, Doha and Abu Dhabi to admire and to check on their headdress which is particular to their tribe. I started to look up to learn how many active tribes there were and at last count I was over 150 without even going into the northern areas beyond the Kurdish lands. I also learned some tribes are small with as few as five thousand members where as others are huge with a couple of million members
Chapter after chapter in these books referring and explaining responsibility to and pride of tribe. Plus, what I did not know, only those families that are tribal pure (and that is another story of how some really are not) the tribes annual profits from ownership in resources on their tribal land is shared only among these tribal pure families - anything from tribal owned oil to investment in these luxury buildings that now dot the Middle East and so there is economic pressure for girls to marry within the tribe - If she does not then it is not just her but her entire family who will no longer receive their share of the annual profits. Which further explains the traditions of keeping women, who control birth from the gaze of men and who cannot tempt a flirtation with men not chosen by families to keep pure their tribal ties.
Tribal Purity is so strictly held that the parks that we would consider public parks only allow folks from the tribe that owns and maintains the park to use the parks - the explanation in one book is that police would spot someone who is not from the tribe and remove them and their family from the park.
My thought was how can they tell but then like all races I am sure there are distinctions that go over our head - like it is difficult for me to tell from appearance who is Chinese from Hong Cong or from Indonesia (Not Indonesians but those and their descendants who migrated from China mostly in the later part of the nineteenth century) or from Mainland China and yet, those Asians who I have worked with over the years can tell immediately. I have been able to distinguish those from Japan or Viet Nam from other Asian groups so one up.
Anyhow all this over tribal purity lead me to speculate that it could be taking Helen from an Athenian 'tribe' would of course have to be blamed somehow on Helen - and this story has her beauty as the culprit as well as her being complicit in her capture by Paris. The Athenians of course would support each other plus, the issue of saving face that I do not know nor, have I read any ritual behavior of how the Greeks valued saving face - but it would seem like as all of us, we would want back what we believe was taken and to take a wife was, till very recently grounds for getting out the rifle or shotgun and until the last 75 years or so if an unmarried girl was taken out came the guns to force a marriage.
So I am seeing another aspect to why a war over a woman - we have lost that sense of purity that the French still value with their laws defining the use of the French Language. Come to think on it, we in the US are reacting with a sense of Tribal Purity when folks want borders closed and folks to dress and talk as 'Americans', in other words in our version of English - Which does still bring out the army to keep us separate at the border - and goodness knows what would happen if a bunch of US citizens were kidnapped and held captive in Mexico as the Athenians reacted to Helen remaining in Troy.
And so this Trojan war has a new meaning for me - the particulars of who played what part during the fighting appears to identify characteristics of men during battles translated today from the board room to the deserts of Afghanistan. So I wonder, are all our ideas and values protected similar to tribal protection - are we setting up our own tribes without realizing it as we stand for a set of ideals and protect those who share these ideals - just a question I ponder...
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Barb, I get the sense that not only do we still have traditional tribalism based mostly on blood ties in some areas but also new types of tribes/tribalism that are less focused on blood ties and tribal traditions. The definition of more modern "tribes" seems to focus more on ideas and interests. The new tribes are more flexible, and I expect form and reform as new ideas and access to better education allow people to develop and express themselves in ways the old, traditional tribal members couldn't. The gap between the two is becoming wider and wider.
I'd like to pin down these modern tribes a little more, but just now I don't know too much about the notion. Are we a tribe here on SeniorLearn because we have a passion for reading and learning? Am I part of a tribe if I affiliate with a political party, club, team, or what have you? TED has one or two talks on modern tribalism. I may just watch them tonight. Here is one of them https://www.ted.com/talks/david_logan_on_tribal_leadership
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I guess it is according to how we define Tribe -
Some insightful books that do continue the concept of tribalism being very much the driving force in the Middle East - not just based on ideas and idealism - there are breakdowns that westerners have attempted to understand thinking it was about the split in the Islam - the journalists often mention tribal leaders but they do not seem to include the understanding of what that is all about - and for sure our governmental policy is attempting to blend tribalism into a one nation with different viewpoints but within a unified government - so far from what I read it won't work - tried to read mostly books authored by those from the Middle East - not always possible but after reading Orientalism by Said it is easier to pick up the unconscious attitude of 'west is better' or the mean for comparison...
Here are some of the books I've been reading - there are others I would love to get but my budget both in time and money has a hand in my collection.
This one is probably a good one for the current views on tribalism in the Gulf States - Tribal Modern by Miriam Cooke
Tribes and Power Nationalism and Ethnicity in the Middle East edited by Faleh A. Jabar and Hosham Dawod
Tribes and State Formation in the Middle East edited by Philip s. Khoury and Joseph Kostiner
How Arab societies work - The Closed Circle by David Pryce Jones
The Kurds edited by Faleh A Jabar and Hosham Dawod
It's not about Religion by Gregory Harms
The Baloch and Balochinstam by Naseer Dashti
this one really goes into the differences between the Shia and the Sunni - The Shia Revival by Vali Nasr - Vali Nasr has a wonderful book from the short bit I was able to read on line about an important leader we do not hear about that started the newest revival in Islam, Mawdudi and the Making of Islamic Revivalism but the book cost used $55 and $125 new - was hoping to find it in a library but so far no such luck. He is often on the Charlie Rose show- Professor at the Navel post graduate school. His books are less about tribalism but rather more about Western miss-understanding and about Islamic factions.
From 2002 is The Al Qaeda Reader by Raymond Ibrahim and from 2000 is Taliban by Ahned Rashid
Not available in the US but can be ordered used from UK The Tribes Triumphant Return Journey to the Middle East by Charles Glass published in 2015 - I've ordered it but have not received it yet.
I do not have a copy but, for the tribalism of ideas that is more universal rather than a series of values and traditions based in the evolving traditional tribal communities - I am thinking Our Political Nature: The Evolutionary Origins of What Divides Us by Avi Tuschman would be a good read.
I've not looked at the affects of Alexander - still caught in the effects of the Ottoman Empire and it being dissolved after WWI that was the open door to the west defining from their perspective the Middle East.
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Since Alexander lived a couple of hundred years before Ovid I wondered if he was included in any of the writings of Ovid - all I find is that the woman who accompanied Alexander and was probably his lover, Thaïs is mentioned "In Ovid’s Remedia Amoris, Thaïs is contrasted with Andromache, Andromache being the epitome of the loyal wife, while Thaïs is taken to be the epitome of sex. Thaïs, says Ovid, is the subject of his art."
Thaïs is most famous for instigating the burning of Persepolis. In 330 BC, Alexander burned down the palace of Persepolis, the principal residence of the defeated Achaemenid dynasty, after a drinking party. She was the first, after the king, to hurl her blazing torch into the palace. Athenaeus says Alexander liked to "keep Thaïs with him", that after Alexander's death Ptolemy I Soter, one of Alexander's generals married Thaïs, who bore him three children.
And Joan you may be interested - evidently Ovid goes into far more about the Trojan War and the characters involved in his book The Art of Love - http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/love-in-the-arts/ovid.html
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Here is a painting by Joshua Reynolds depicting Thais ready to torch the palace. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tha%C3%AFs#/media/File:Joshua_Reynoldsre_thais.jpg
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Ginny has had a major power problem down at the farm, and the power surge that then occurred has fried, apparently, her computer. People were to come out to try and fix it this afternoon. She will get back here as soon as she can and the new story will begin then.
We all know how Mother Nature and power companies can mess up things, so please be patient and have a great weekend!
Jane
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thanks for the heads up Jane - thank goodness it is not mid summer and Ginny's AC would be affected - or maybe the power outage has only to do with her communication hookup -
Frybabe great find - I had not heard of her and yet, it seems she has been included in many a story and here you find her on canvas.
The connection between her helping to burn down Persepolis lines up as a tradition - the burning of some of our communities like Watts must be instinctive when emotions are high in a group. Googled and learned that in the Bible of all things there are 36 instances of cities being burned. Wow...
Evidently Alexander burning Persepolis was a tit for tat since "King Xerxes, son of Cyrus, who invaded and destroyed much of Greece in 480 BCE, burning villages, cities and temples (including the Parthenon of Athens) until defeated at the naval Battle of Salamis."
I wonder why the account of what happened in Troy got so much attention by several of these ancient writers where as the exploits of Alexander do not receive that much attention? We are told that the written stories were a verbal history put on paper by these writers - so does that mean Alexander's conquests were not stories shared among the people of Greece? Interesting - I read where there are some accounts of his life by his contemporaries and others who lived later but none of the writers mentioned are familiar names today expect probably among the Ancient Greek scholars.
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Sending messages to the enemy or defeated by destroying buildings, crops, exterminating livestock and people and destroying history itself. Not the way it should be, but the way it is. It just reminded me of the destruction that ISIS did to Palmyra, like the Buddha statues the Taliban destroyed. Have you seen the before and after pictures?
http://www.reuters.com/news/picture/palmyra-before-and-after-isis?articleId=USRTSCQPG
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How painfully sad...
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How little I know about Alexander - just read he was taught by Aristotle.
Found this interesting 3 minutes short film about Ovid from Colby which evidently is a private grade school as well as a high school.
https://vimeo.com/85562560
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I'm going to get an early start today because tomorrow I think I may be initially busy with the classes due to the loss of my computer, so I don't want anybody to have to wait.
I'll start with repeating the "heading" here with the questions for your convenience since I understand that many never see the headings, they come in by being notified of a post. Feel free to add any question or thoughts or ideas YOU have:
Pyramus and Thisbe:
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/ThisbeWaterhouseJohnWilliam1909.jpg)
Thisbe by John William Waterhouse 1909
Bk IV:55-92 Arsippe tells the story of Pyramus and Thisbe
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205189 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205189)
Bk IV:93-127 The death of Pyramus
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205190 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205190)
Bk IV:128-166 The death of Thisbe
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205191 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205191)
What do you Think: Questions for Consideration or add your own:
"She liked this last one (short story)
Because it was not yet well known, and so she began,
Telling her yarn while her wool spun into thread."
1. It would probably be difficult in 2016 to find somebody who did not know this type of story, yet how is it different from the ones you know? Which do you prefer?
"Pyramus and Thisbe, he the loveliest of boys,
She the most beautiful girl in the Orient..."
2. What else do we learn about these characters? Would you call them well developed? Why or why not? How DO we learn more about them?
"Jealous wall, why do you stand
Between lovers? Would it be asking too much
For you to let us embrace, or at least open enough
To allow us to kiss?"
3. What one element in this very short story stands out the most for you?
4. What was the narrator's purpose in telling this story?
5. How is the love in this story different from that of the one of Narcissus?
6.This story is original with Ovid. Why is it not a myth?
7. Why does Pyramus pull out the sword from his wound?
8. Who is Ninus and where is his tomb?
9. What is odd about the two bodies being buried in the same urn?
10. What are the metamorphoses in this story?
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And welcome in to our newest story of why mulberfries are purple in color.
This one is so short and seems so simple it's hard to realize it comes from Ovid, the knowledge there IS about it is it's not known "where he heard it," and there is no other version than his. That makes the ones WE know derivative and I always like to see the original of anything if I possibly can.
Plus I'm a real nut about legendary tales and it's kind of fun to look at a narcissus in spring and know the story behind it, to hear an echo and know the story behind IT and now to see a mulberry and be able to think, oh I know the origin of that one, too. I think that even tho this is quite short, it has a lasting resonance, which Ovid has just said thru his characters.
To be so short and simple there seem a lot of elements which interest me in this one. The setting of Babylon is one, I don't know much about it, other than the Hanging Gardens, you don't see many works of fiction set there, the symbolism of several of the elements, the love story, and the obstructions to that love. I might be wrong but other than Narcissus, this is our first Romantic Love story in Ovid. A 2000 year old Romance.
To answer number 3, I am sure I am the only one struck by the wall itself. I am reminded of Robert Frost and his "Something there is that doesn't love a well," and what THAT symbolized. We really ought to look at that poem, perhaps in connection with this one.
The Romans would have been transfixed by the walls of Babylon. They were not used to painted mud brick walls, Greeks and Romans were used to stone walls in the West, so when they traveled, they brought home tales of these fabulous sights.
Here is a photograph of the Ishtar Gate which is now in the Pergamon Museum in Berlin. It is absolutely spectacular, as you can see, and even on the bricks the animals seem to rise from the stone, they are elevated. (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/IshtarGate.jpg) This is the only photo of it we apparently have here on our server but when (if) I get my own computer back I can put in some examples.
But here is a really good film on it from Khan Academy, which in addition in 6 minutes offers you a mini Babylonian history:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2iZ83oIZH0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2iZ83oIZH0)
It's just spectacular, so this story being set in Babylon, it's not unusual that a wall would stand in importance, but what does this particular wall symbolize? I'd really like to examine that and compare it to the Robert Frost poem, which I have always loved, for my part. But what struck YOU?
Everyone is welcome!
Penny for your thoughts!
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Hello everyone.
6.This story is original with Ovid. Why is it not a myth?
A myth is usually not true and this particular story may be fiction but there are many examples of the storyline being true. When my daughter-in-law graduated medical school she pointed out friends among her classmates who could not be with their significant others on that day because their their parents did not approve because of cultural or religious reasons. Back in the 50s my aunt, a beautiful blonde Polish woman married a very handsome swarth Italian. His family never approved. Another aunt, same family, right after WWII, wanted to marry a man of German descent but my grandfather was adamant that his Polish daughter would never marry a German. Even though the young man in question had just returned from a stint in the war as a Marine! They did marry. I'm sure everyone has similar family stories or knows someone who does.
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In the classroom the teaching explaining the differences between Legend, Myth and Folklore is explained on this site... http://myths.e2bn.org/teachers/info311-what-are-myths-legends-and-folktales.html
However, on another site the explanation is a bit different
A Myth is a traditional ancient story often with gods, heroes and supernatural beings. They often explaining an aspect of the natural world, customs or ideas in society. An example would be of the Greek myth of Prometheus, a human being who stole the secret of fire from the gods and was punished with everlasting torment, purported to explain the origin of mankind's use of fire.
A Legend is an unverified story handed down from earlier times, especially one popularly believed to be historical. Robin Hood would be an example.
A story is an account or recital of an event or a series of events, either true or fictitious.
Fiction is an imaginative creation or a pretense that does not represent actuality but has been invented. This can also be non-fiction.
Drama is either is prose or verse composition, especially one telling a serious story, that is intended for representation by actors impersonating the characters and performing the dialogue and action. For example, Romeo and Juliet.
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The part that makes me curious as to assigning any label is the mulberries - yep, I agree with Halcyon - lots of examples of the powers that be - regardless parents rules or family or cultural or even religious tradition or forced distance such as a young teen who seems bent on a union too early in their life being whisked away to a distant relative or private school or a European tour. However, this story has an explanation for why Mulberries are dark - surely explaining an aspect of the natural world I would think up there with being turned into a Laurel Tree or twin trees with entwining branches - or upon death becoming a flower mound.
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The symbolism of the wall and the crack has my brain on a non-stop journey as I take it to another step of how we can wall in ourselves and there is this crack of what could be, a dream for ourselves and if we guts up and go after the dream but it does not turn out to be our vision or the plan did not work so we cut off ourselves not to pursue or try for that dream again.
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I agree the tale seems more like a story. The only element that's supernatural or an explanation of the world is the bloodstained mulberries, and they almost look like something added in to make the story fit Ovid's theme of change.
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Halcyon, I sure am glad to see you back and you're an inspiration for eye surgery, you're giving me hope. Or maybe courage would be a better word, you didn't formerly wear contacs, did you, by any chance? I am somewhat confused over the instructions about them.
That's a really good point about the reason they are on each side of the wall, the disaproving parents. Ovid doesn't say why, tho, does he? It doesn't appear either one is of poorer estate than the others, he just lets it go but as you say, sometimes the reasons don't mean much to us in hearing them. Yet you do see families split and for a lot less valid reasons. So for some reason we really don't know why but they find a way to circumvent even a wall. And he even says, "what does love not see?"
So it's about the power of love? One recurring theme in the Metamorphoses is "The Sadness of Love," which we have seen before and so maybe we should not be surprised here. The whole thing is quite sad, actually.
It took Shakespeare to see the humor of it in A Midsummer Night's Dream, but Ovid tried. Don't you wish you knew how Shakespeare actually came UP with these ideas? So we have an obstacle in the parents and a symbol of that in the wall but the lovers have overcome it..but fail. Or do they?
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Barbara and Halcyon two great ideas on why it's not a myth. W.S. Anderson says "it is not a myth, for it ignores the gods and serves the girls (the narrator etc) as a substitute for the divine cult; a humanly devised tale, it attempts to give significance to human beings."
I think that's interesting and one of the definitions you found indicates the same, Barbara, and I must admit I never thought of myth like that. But is HE right? But when you think about it, myths in Greece were originally about the gods, the myths themselves were the vehicles of their religion, so in Rome, and here we have one with no god present or named which was normal, or doing powerful stuff, and a love story (one of the first in the Metamorphoses, other than Narcissus who loved himself, the first true romance, then, and not a myth.
I will admit that from this point onward, I'm going to be watching out for mentions of gods in any story I read of this nature.
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Loved this, Barbara: The symbolism of the wall and the crack has my brain on a non-stop journey as I take it to another step of how we can wall in ourselves and there is this crack of what could be, a dream for ourselves and if we guts up and go after the dream but it does not turn out to be our vision or the plan did not work so we cut off ourselves not to pursue or try for that dream again.
Just reading THAT sent my mind off on whirlwinds. If the crack is opportunity or what could BE, the possibility of failure also presents itself. The new National Latin Exam medals have a motto on it of Sapere Aude, which was the motto Kant adopted for the Enlightenment, but Horace said it first in 20 B.C.
He said it in refer3ence to what he called a "fool" who was standing by a fast flowing stream waiting for it to stop so he could cross. Sapere aude, he said, dare to know. Dare to be wise. Take a chance.
So with that slant, then this is a tragedy? Because they dared and failed because of ?????
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And Pat, that's another great point, the supernatural is somewhat missing. I do see one other (other than the color of the mulberries) instance of it but there's no god involved. In fact since you mention it I wonder if it's a hole in the plot line.
The aetiological aspect, the "how the mulberry got a purple color," usually applies to a myth, but it applies here. I don't know if ALL of Ovid's stories need to have a metamorphoses, that would be interesting to find out. How would we do that? I don't know if the story needs to BE a myth, is this another change of his?
I bet they don't all have a metamorphosis. But this one does. Do we all think it's the mulberries? Are there any others?
To put a change in 250 stories and not have ONE without a metamorphosis would take a lot of contrivance, to fit them in. And I wonder why he did here? I am wondering what the point of the story or the focus really is at this point, the color of the berries doesn't seem to be the climax? Or is it?
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Yes Ginny, the face at the end of your sentence got me thinking - why? - If using the story as a life lesson - why or what stops us from pursuing our plan for a dream so that we do not return - The tiger could be anything that is dangerous and worthy of our fear - and so Thisbe fleeing is appropriate - but then Pyramus seeing the blood stained vail, feels guilt - guilt for an imagined death - do we jump to conclusions when we see what we think is failure - or do we imagine failure more quickly when we are in the new territory that comes with attempting a dream or more like Pyramus, is it easy to jump to conclusions when we are already feeling guilty for disobeying an authority and following our dream?
Thisbe bravely returns regardless of her fear which is what folks say courage is all about - not being fearless but acting regardless of our fear - her courage stems from love - not wanting to disappoint the one she loves -
During her heartfelt slide into being helpless - helpless to fix, save, repair her loved partner in this venture she is in grief and the next paragraph tells us how grief is manifested during the time of Ovid - "striking at her innocent arms, and tearing at her hair."
I remember as a child seeing Mom's do this - since the 50s it is not a typical sight - I am thinking with the advancement in medicine there is not the kind of helplessness, as if leaving your child to the fates as before penicillin and then other drugs - there was a brief display of Mom's acting in what was called hysteria when kids were taken to hospitals with polio but then in only about 15 or so years from the epidemic Dr. Salk came to the rescue and ever since there is a belief in medicine and research so that striking arms and tearing at hair does not appear as a reaction to the pending loss of a loved one.
Is that the message for going after a dream - there will be serious and fearful snags but learning, research, belief in those who can cure problems is a better choice than to team up with the failure assumed by a partner - a failure that may have been precedent to an imagined loss.
When she sees the evidence of his imagined loss and realizes it was love for her that prompted Pyramus to give up the dream assuming his loved partner Thisbe was gone, she too gives up not only the dream but her future, her life.
Not sure how many here in this discussion are watching Grantchester on PBS - the mystery featuring a cleric and an inspector - the cleric and his Amanda are fitting a semblance of the Pyramus and Thisbe story - without the dark mulberries ;) - last night's episode had them declare to each other their love and wish they had acted on their desire for marriage but with Amanda's father's expectations and Sidney's feeling less worthy they let an opportunity slip and now the wall appears to be her early pregnancy. However, you do not get the sense that this is the end for them - that either fall on the sword or as in today, go their separate ways - it was a dream that neither followed with a plan.
Is the message here that when attempting to bring about a dream it is easy to be spooked by what is fearful and once we imagine the loss of the dream that was freedom to be with whom or what we love, the dream is dead. It is our imagination that prompts us to take the risk but then it is imagination that brings about the death of a dream.
The forces of nature are simultaneously life-giving and death-dealing - sad is how impoverished is our imagination. It is not just our ignorance but the loss of our heart, our inability to inquire into what we imagine is beyond our capacity to learn and therefore, as fearful as a tiger so that we toss off the unknown as a mystery or as today, we feel threatened by the affects of danger.
Hmm this love story really explains life itself doesn't it - love is the giver - the source of life and yet, within life is the 'gift' of contamination, disease, illness of the mind and finally death. Is fear for the one loved, the risk taken, also the prerogative of Love - does all of nature and our feelings contain a duality of opposites I wonder.
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This story is an example of a kind of tragedy I find very frustrating; you could call it tragedy by rash thoughtlessness. Pyramus finds Thisbe's blood-stained cloak surrounded by lion tracks. "She's dead! It's my fault! I'll kill myself too!" Hold on, Pyramus, there's no body. Look for her. Maybe she's dying and you can comfort her. Maybe she's just wounded and you can save her. Maybe she is dead, but find out what happened before you do something stupid.
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Pat says: This story is an example of a kind of tragedy I find very frustrating; you could call it tragedy by rash thoughtlessness. Pyramus finds Thisbe's blood-stained cloak surrounded by lion tracks. "She's dead! It's my fault! I'll kill myself too!" Hold on, Pyramus, there's no body. Look for her. Maybe she's dying and you can comfort her. Maybe she's just wounded and you can save her. Maybe she is dead, but find out what happened before you do something stupid.
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I agree but find it's much easier to see someone else "projecting" than myself. When I'm caught up in a moment of fear can imagine all sorts of things. I really have to tell myself I don't have all the facts and for right this moment I am fine. Takes practice and of course I haven't mastered it. Reminds me of FDR's famous statement “Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself”.
Ginny says: That's a really good point about the reason they are on each side of the wall, the disaproving parents. Ovid doesn't say why, tho, does he?
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I was rereading a passage "Jealous wall, why do you stand between lovers?" Lombardo, line 84. I wondered if the wall represented the parents who could not marry for love and were jealous of the two lovers. It seems likely families would have matched their children to form political alliances or for monetary reasons. The chink in the wall could represent metamorphoses, thinking that people should be together for love. Too simplistic?
Ginny, I'll email you with details about my eye surgery. I don't want to bore everyone. does your email work?
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The children were both outstandingly beautiful. Perhaps each set of parents hoped their child would marry someone richer or more important, thus improving the family's fortunes.
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Found some quotes that I thought fit the story each with another twist
“Your perspective on life comes from the cage you were held captive in.”
“No boundary or barrier surrounds the heart of a person that loves their self and others.”
“Sometimes your belief system is really your fears attached to rules.”
“Fear is a product of doubt. it is a negative energy. Fear is an opposite of faith.”
“There are limits to the dimension of fear. Until one meets the unknown. Then terror has no boundaries, no walls to keep it contained.”
“Even paradise could become a prison if one had enough time to take notice of the walls.”
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/jason/JasonandA15001530LorenzoCosta.jpg)
We'll begin again, then, Monday May 2 with Jason and Medea, and this is probably a Medea that was never covered in any school, so brace selves.
We think of Jason and the Golden Fleece but our retold stories for children do not include much of the reason he managed to do his deeds: the witch (and she was) Medea.
The intro lines are in the previous chapter and they are:
....the young men sailed
With the Minyans as Argonauts, on that first ship,
Seeking the shining wool of the Golden Fleece.
And we're OFF on another adventure!
See you on the 2nd of May~
Bk VII:1-73 Medea agonises over her love for Jason
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106435 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106435)
Bk VII:74-99 Jason promises to marry Medea
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106436 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106436)
Bk VII:100-158 Jason wins the Golden Fleece
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106437 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106437)
Bk VII:159-178 Jason asks Medea to lengthen Aeson’s life
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106)
This will be our first section to cover so we have a lot to talk about and not just a few things.
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I learned the story of Pyramus and Thisbe when I was in grade school, but had no idea until now that it comes from Ovid. It's retold in A Midsummer Night's Dream, but you certainly don't feel the tragedy. It's acted as a play by a bunch of amateurs who don't really know what they're doing, and it's all low comedy, with the audience making fun of them. An actor plays the wall, with his fingers as the crack, which he tends to hold at the wrong height, so the lovers can't look through.
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The children were both outstandingly beautiful. Perhaps each set of parents hoped their child would marry someone richer or more important, thus improving the family's fortunes.
Could be. I noticed that myself, they were both beautiful and then what? What I thought immediately was Agatha Christie. Christie if you look at her books, the characters are sketchily drawn but the reader feels an immediate connection to them, the reader fills in, as it were, the details and thus feels a connection.
But I don't feel that here. It's almost as if Ovid has deliberately held us back by some wall, there's no connection. You don't care. They are almost the Stock Characters of Roman plays. But those plays are usually comedies. This one is a tragedy.
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Barbara, what wonderful quotes, this one is so apropos, isn't it?
“Even paradise could become a prison if one had enough time to take notice of the walls.”
I'm still coming back to the walls. I was thinking of Frost today on the drive back: (paraphrased) "He will not go beyond his father's saying, and he likes it so well, he says it again, 'good fences make good neighbors.'"
Because they keep you apart.
That's not what happened here.
Pat said: This story is an example of a kind of tragedy I find very frustrating; you could call it tragedy by rash thoughtlessness. Pyramus finds Thisbe's blood-stained cloak surrounded by lion tracks. "She's dead! It's my fault! I'll kill myself too!" Hold on, Pyramus, there's no body. Look for her. Maybe she's dying and you can comfort her. Maybe she's just wounded and you can save her. Maybe she is dead, but find out what happened before you do something stupid.
I thought that exact same thing. Maybe THIS is his "tragic flaw?"
Tragic Flaw - Definition and Examples of Tragic Flaw:
literarydevices.net/tragic-flaw/
Tragic flaw is a literary device that can be defined as a trait in a character leading to his downfall and the character is often the hero of the literary piece. This trait could be the lack of self-knowledge, lack of judgment and often it is hubris (pride)
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It wouldn't be a tragedy without his misjudgment. I spent a good bit of time thinking about why he wouldn't look for her? But I guess a lion could have dragged her off?
He feels guilty because he talked her into it but that's not what Ovid says, he says they agreed together. But it may have been at his instigation.
, the risk taken, also the prerogative of Love
That's right on, too, Barbara! One of the themes in the Metamorphoses is the sadness of love. This one is surely sad but why did Shakespeare do it over as Pat describes in a Midsummer Night's Dream as a comedy? He must have sensed something in it.
Of course Romeo and Juliet, which also comes from it, is not funny. I have read there are only a few plots in the world, this is one: boy meets girl, boy loses girl...and then what?
And it's also true as Barbara says that in a crisis we may not react as we expect. I have seen three motorcycle accidents on the road and one caused the death of two people right in front of me. I was thinking of that the other day. It was so fast. You are stunned, you can't think. I think Pyramus jumped to major conclusions, but there are people like that. I was in slow motion, I really wonder how these poor people in these war torn areas ever survive without lasting scars. I am sure I couldn't.
Halcyon I LOVE that chink in the wall representing a metamorphosis or symbolism. I always have the feeling that something is being symbolized in these and I've never heard that one before, super idea!
I am obsessed with that wall for some reason.
My email does work but it's an ipad and SIRI makes me look like an idiot. but TOMORROW at 4 my real computer will be back! It's fixed and the hard drive is OK thank God, so after 4 I will be "normal," or what passes for normal with me. :)
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I bet you will be glad when your communication machine is back to what you are used to...
OK had a thought tonight when watching a couple of actors and a director talk of their new movie - in this story by Ovid - who is the protagonist and who is the antagonist?
The Glossary of Literary Terms says that Personification: Attaching human characteristics to something that is not human. Which in the story they talk to the wall as if it was human. Therefore, it is easier to see the wall as a character. But as a character, is the wall the protagonist or is Thisbe and Pyramus the protagonists.
The Glossary says... The Protagonist is, The good person in a story. Usually the central character. And the Antagonist is the bad person in a story who opposes the protagonist.
Do we consider Thisbe and Pyramus good or did they go around their parent's wishes where as, the wall does what it was intended and did not falter - or do we consider the crack in the wall the fault line and therefore, the wall also fails as the good character.
The only character in the story that did no harm and was as it was created is the Tiger - out of fear, because of seeing evidence that Pyramus assumed was the evidence of a dark incident, Pyramus takes his life - do we consider because he acted out of love that there is nothing bad about taking your own life?
Is fear, in the form of a Tiger, the only pure 'good' character and is the protagonist, in response to both Thisbe and Pyramus act not in their best interest - however, the Tiger appears briefly and is not a major character.
Or is the wall, crack and all which, the crack could represent imperfection of the parents authority therefore, the wall representing the parents authority is the Protagonist and the lovers are the Antagonists whose own weakness of fear and guilt and forbidden love trips them up and they pay dearly for their disobedience?
An elongated definition of Antagonist - "An antagonist is a group of characters, institution, or concept that stands in or represents opposition against which the protagonist(s) must contend. In other words, an antagonist is a person or a group of people who opposes a protagonist."
And then this... "An antagonist may not always be a person or persons. In some cases, an antagonist may be a force, such as a tidal wave that destroys a city; a storm that causes havoc; or even a certain area's conditions that are the root cause of a problem. An antagonist also may or may not create obstacles for the protagonist."
And so, the other way round, the wall is the antagonist and the couple are the protagonists who must contend with an institution or concept that represents the opposite against the protagonist which is the wall. Today, we can easily see the wall symbol for the parent's authority as the antagonist however, for most of history the wall is the symbol for an institution that said, it is the duty and responsibility of "good" parents to arrange the marriages of their children. Love was not a basis for Marriage till the 18th-century Europe when love gains ground.
"For most of history it was inconceivable that people would choose their mates on the basis of something as fragile and irrational as love. When someone did advocate such a strange belief, it was no laughing matter. Instead, it was considered a serious threat to social order."
"As late as the eighteenth century the French essayist Montaigne wrote that any man who was in love with his wife was a man so dull that no one else could love him.
Courtly love probably loomed larger in literature than in real life. But for centuries, noblemen and kings fell in love with courtesans rather than the wives they married for political reasons. Queens and noblewomen had to be more discreet than their husbands, but they too looked beyond marriage for love and intimacy.
This sharp distinction between love and marriage was common among the lower and middle classes as well. Many of the songs and stories popular among peasants in medieval Europe mocked married love." from Marriage, A History.
It appears only we, who live in this time of history see the choice made by Thisbe and Pyramus as "good". And so their action was not only foolish but threatened the social order and so, of course society had to see that this behavior did not go unpunished - like the bad guy we have grown to like in a movie who ends up dead before the law hangs him as in the story of Jessie James.
And so the metamorphous would be Thisbe and Pyramus going from bad to good by killing themselves which preserved the social order.
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It wouldn't be a tragedy without his misjudgment. I spent a good bit of time thinking about why he wouldn't look for her? But I guess a lion could have dragged her off?
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We also need to remember their ages......teen-agers, raging hormones, drama.
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Exactly. Note that this story has become the classic symbol of thwarted young love through Shakespeare's adaptation in "Romeo and Juliet." No one seems to blame the young lovers for jumping to conclusions. The blame is on the parents (i.e. forces of society) keeping them apart.
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What wonderful points you've raised.
You're so right, JoanK, I think a lot of the Metamorphoses (just my opinion) is symbolic, maybe we can get all of the symbolism, maybe not. The issue of who is at fault makes for a good discussion.
The parents might have been acting in their own children's behalf (or so they thought). Who could not relate to that?
And then hormones, you are so right, Halcyon, don't we all shudder at some of the things we did? I do.
The children might have been rash and impulsive, who couldn't relate to that?
Who hasn't been?
And there's that wall again.
Robert Frost. 1875–
64. Mending Wall
SOMETHING there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing: 5
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made, 10
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go. 15
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
"Stay where you are until our backs are turned!"
We wear our fingers rough with handling them. 20
Oh, just another kind of outdoor game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
He is all pine and I am apple-orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him. 25
He only says, "Good fences make good neighbors."
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
"Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it
Where there are cows? But here there are no cows. 30
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down!" I could say "Elves" to him, 35
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there,
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me, 40
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbors."
I absolutely love this poem, and, unless restrained, will apply it to anything and everything.
Love that moves in darkness. How many people move in darkness , walled in by their own ...what would you call it? Lack of knowledge? Opinions? Perceptions?
None so blind as those who will not see?
And here's another wall which is overcome to a tragic ending.
The problem is, that it's true: good fences do make good neighbors, that's the conundrum of the entire thing. It did in this 2000 year old romance/ tragedy, too.
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Barbara, that was a spectacular bit of reasoning about the symbolism!
And this is an interesting question:
Do we consider Thisbe and Pyramus good? The whole element of "good and bad" here is an interesting one. It MAY have tie ins with Ovid's own experience, too, in encouraging young lovers as he did, married or not to others.
I can't figure out how the parents knew to bury the two of them in the same grave.
I can't figure out why Pyramus pulled out the sword from his own wound. I know Ovid needed that to make the blood spurt up on the berries, but that seems quite unusual to me. Who DOES that? In the movies somebody else is always pulling it out so the person can get on and get better. I don't think that's the thing here or is it? Did Pyramus regret at the last minute? We won't ever know.
An amazing thing was said about the San Francisco Golden Gate Bridge upon which they have put, suicide nets to stop attempted suicides.
The engineers who designed these were asked during the planning if the nets would stop somebody determined to kill themselves who were able to then crawl out. The answer was they wouldn't do it in the first place, because falling into the nets would cause injury, some of it very serious and they didn't want to get hurt they just wanted to kill themselves. I have never forgotten that. So I wonder if Pyramus despite everything, recanted at the last minute.
One thing that struck me about the characters is that they are not well defined. They are barely sketched out. That reminds me, as I mentioned earlier, of Agatha Christie who did the same thing. With a brush stroke here and there she created characters of no particular description (if the reader had to describe them) but enough that we felt we all could relate to them, we all knew them, that takes art. I am not sure Ovid here intended that we relate completely to these characters, and I don't think we do, do you? That leads me to wonder why we don't particularly feel for these young people.
I never liked Romeo and Juliet for that matter, nor the Midsummer Night's Dream.
I'm enjoying our leisurely yet interesting (thanks to your comments) journey through Ovid's Metamorphoses.
Are we ready to move on?
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so many of these stories have been done in a synopsis version including Shakespeare so that reading the original is a shock to realize we have been reading others preconceived notions as they shared their slant on these stories and when you read them for yourself there is so much more depth.
Yes, in this one the wall and its crack is described as well as the human characters and therefore, to me the wall and its crack is a passive character in the story.
I did not know that the Golden Gate Bridge had nets to catch jumpers - I remember as a teen, we lived on a small island that there was two substantial piers - the one folks would use as a fishing pier and at the end of the pier there was a floating platform where boats could pull up and get gas - on the one side of the pier was an old three mastered schooner that had not been in use for years and years - many of the boys used to sneak on and climb those masts that the top of the masts were still a bit lower then the walkway on the pier - One year we got it in our heads to dive off the side of the pier just past the schooner so we did not risk hitting it - I remember the first dive I took which was at least as high as a 4 story building my legs wanted to crumble and I had all I could do to stay straight so I would not hit the water and hurt myself - from then on I thought anyone jumping off a bridge had a lot of time on the way down to think of how their body was responding and if they were not an experienced swimmer, as we were, they would not know the damage they were heading for because controlling the body to avoid damage when hitting the water took a lot of effort.
In recent years when I thoughts of 9/11 slip into my consciousness I still wonder falling from a great height like that if those who jumped were dead before they hit the ground. There were times when I was standing at the edge of some great height and would think how easy it would be to take that step - almost as if something was drawing me and yet, I have never had any thoughts of suicide - the idea of killing yourself with a sword seems brutal but I wonder if using a sword was such an everyday occurrence that it was like the pull of a great height making it seem easy to take that step.
The concept of being locked in a room for me gave the story an out of world fantasy story - can you imagine really what that would mean with no indoor plumbing and who brought them their food - no exchange with the outside world, no music or books - the media brings us more information about what happens to people in isolated confinement so no wonder once out of confinement fears were exaggerated, but more their isolation sounds too much like punishment rather than simply keeping them apart. I think this is one story we just cannot dwell on the particulars but rather on the over all arc of the story.
Well looking forward now to reading and discussing our next story.
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We'll begin again, then, Monday May 2 with Jason and Medea, and this is probably a Medea that was never covered in any school, so brace selves.
We think of Jason and the Golden Fleece but our retold stories for children do not include much of the reason he managed to do his deeds: the witch (and she was) Medea.
The intro lines are in the previous chapter and they are:
....the young men sailed
With the Minyans as Argonauts, on that first ship,
Seeking the shining wool of the Golden Fleece.
And we're OFF on another adventure! (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/jason/JasonandA15001530LorenzoCosta.jpg)
See you on the 2nd of May~
Bk VII:1-73 Medea agonises over her love for Jason
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106435 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106435)
Bk VII:74-99 Jason promises to marry Medea
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106436 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106436)
Bk VII:100-158 Jason wins the Golden Fleece
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106437 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106437)
Bk VII:159-178 Jason asks Medea to lengthen Aeson’s life
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106)
This will be our first section to cover so we have a lot to talk about and not just a few things.
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Why Did China survive for over 2000 years while the Roman Empire did not? (https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b9506e9398a4bae409e45c3030e70f79?convert_to_webp=true)
During the First Balkan War in 1912 the Greek navy captured the island of Lemnos from the Ottoman Empire and promptly sent soldiers to every village and stationed them in the public squares. Children from all over the island ran to see what these so called Greeks looked like.
"What are you looking at?" one of soldiers asked. "At you Greeks" one of the children replied. "Are you not Greek yourselves?" said the soldier. "No, we are Romans" replied the child.
The above story was told by Peter Charanis, a well known historian, himself born in Lemnos in 1908. At that time, more than half of all Greeks still identified themselves as Romans and lived outside the official Hellenic Republic, in the Aegean, Thrace, but mostly in Asia Minor.
In the following decade, as the Hellenic Republic expanded and encompassed those areas as well (and eventually lost them in 1923), every child was taught to think of itself as Greek, not Roman. Thus ended the world's most ancient national identity, over 2700 years old since the founding of Rome.
However, if the original author is inquiring as to why there is a Chinese nation-state in existence today but no Roman nation-state, then the answer interestingly enough may be found in medieval and modern Greek history.
The gradual collapse of the western half of the Roman Empire forced the remaining East to redefine itself by a predominantly Greek population. Indeed, Roman citizens in the Middle Ages would commonly refer to themselves as Greeks as well as Romans and call their land Greece and Rome (Romania) alike.
This relatively homogeneous state with a sense of common identity among the people, stood in stark contrast to the earlier massive multi-ethnic Empire.
This is the defining characteristic of nationalism, which was growing all over Europe during the middle ages and eventually culminated with the French Revolution in 1789 and the world's first nation-state, France. In Greece proper and Asia Minor however, the totalitarian rule of the Ottoman conquerors hindered Roman nationalism from maturing and prevented it materializing in a Roman nation-state.
When the Ottoman Empire began dissolving in the early 19th century, the Roman people came together and finally did form their nation-state, which they named Greece instead Romania which was the de facto name the people used.
This break in tradition is attributed to the Renaissance on the one hand, which gave birth to admiration of the Classic era, and the increased reliance on the Great Powers for help on the other, who frankly found the prospect of aiding the descendants of Pericles and Leonidas far more appealing than helping the descendants of Basil and Constantine.
More importantly, by identifying themselves as Greeks, they renounced their claims to all and any Roman lands and titles their forefathers held, which put the great monarchs of Europe a little bit more at ease and inclined to help.
Still, once the political integrity of this newborn state was no longer at stake, the Greeks began a series of all out wars against the Ottomans anyway, in an attempt to reclaim all remaining Greek speaking territories in Asia Minor. Had they been successful, the final form of modern Greece would look surprisingly similar to the medieval Roman Empire on a map (The above is a real map published by the Hellenic Republic in 1920).
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I didn't get around to reading about Thisbe and Pyramus, but I sure liked reading the discussion.
Don (Radioman) just played Saint Sean's Phaeton on his weekly classical music show; it reminded me to look in on the discussion again.
I am not going to read Jason and Medea since we already covered it in Latin class. It isn't one of my favorite stories, but I'll be peeking in on the discussion.
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t's y least favorite story oo, but I'm interested to see his take on it.
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I thought perhaps I would begin tonight with a few thoughts to get us launched tomorrow on Medea and Jason and I see that this story is not a fave with the group at hand, why not?
What is it about it that you dislike? Medea's ceaseless whining?
I thought also in our time honored way of discussing a book that it might be fun instead of having questions just to talk together about what WE see in it and what strikes us the most initially in this first section. I read the Kline this time and enjoyed it very much, he's got a way about him, doesn't he?
Here's a Greek hero that needs a woman to accomplish his labors, that's interesting. Very. Not much done, was it?
And here's Medea, who has the first dramatic soliloquy in the Metamorphoses, and it's about her feelings and love. Here Medea is, as Anderson put it, "a victim of her own passions, not [a] helpless target of amoral deities."
In addition Medea was Ovid's favorite character and he even wrote a play about her which is lost.
So given all that, what do YOU think of her so far?
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Medea was Ovid's favorite character? Wow, I'll have to think about that one.
I'll be here tomorrow, but since I'm in Portland, OR, at the moment, my bright andearly is lunchtime formost of you.
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I guess I am just not into stories about women getting used and abused and then dumped. I guess the Greeks and Romans weren't much into happy endings, especially for women, when it comes to drama. There were parts of it I liked, but as a whole? No.
I liked Iphigenia (Euripides) better. If I remember correctly, we saw some courage and, eventually, some revenge.
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Medea certainly was no shrinking violet. She knew what she wanted and used all her powers to get it. She was more powerful than Jason and he did keep his promise by marrying her but did that mean that he truly loved her?
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but I thought he did marry her and she was responsible for Jason's success and he acknowledges that she was the one who allowed him to be successful... When he goes home to his parents with his wife finding his father very aged this sentence...
"Then Jason, his son, said ‘O my wife, to whom I confess I owe my life, though you have already given me everything, and the total of all your kindnesses is beyond any promises we made, let your incantations, if they can (what indeed can they not do?) reduce my own years and add them to my father’s!’ He could not restrain his tears. Medea was moved by the loving request, and the contrast with Aeetes, abandoned by her, came to mind.
I am not a seeing what you see Frybabe - how is Media "used and abused and then dumped."
It was Bacchus who wanted to use the powers of Media, not Jason, "Bacchus saw this wondrous miracle from heaven’s heights, and realising from it, that the Nymphs of Mount Nysa, who had nursed him, could have their youth restored"
Media saw that the daughter of Jason's half brother was disingenuous and set her up to kill her father rather than restore him as Media had restored her grandfather - Media says, "You father’s life and youth are in your hands. If you have any filial affection, if those are not vain hopes that stir you, render your father this service, banish old age with your weapons, and drive out his poisoned blood with a stroke of the iron blade!" And they both proceed to use their blades with Media actually slitting his throat.
There was no explanation in this part of the story why Media joins in the killing of Pelias but it has to do with him driving Iolchos from his throne in the city from which the Argonauts sailed. Sounds like loyalty to Jason but misplaced - "When Jason, the son of the dethroned King of Iolchos, was a little boy, he ... King Æson, had been deprived of the kingdom of Iolchos by Pelias, who would also have killed Jason, had he not been hidden in the Centaur's cave."
Media "would not have escaped punishment had she not taken to the air, with her winged dragons"
Evidently Jason is quick to remarry - "After Jason’s new bride Glauce had been consumed by the fires of vengeful Colchian witchcraft and both the Isthmus’s gulfs had witnessed flame consuming the king’s palace, Medea impiously bathed her sword in the blood of their sons."
Media finds her haven "It was Aegeus who gave Medea sanctuary there, damned thereafter by that one action: and not content with taking her in, he even entered into a contract of marriage with her."
Media seems to have known what was in the heart of duplicity added to her own revenge she acts and escapes punishment, remarries and goes on with her life or whatever it is that the gods experience.
I also think to read these stories and find within ourselves these characters in the form of our feelings, our weak and strong thoughts that are part of our self-esteem. At times we make choices that come from our weakness and other times our strength and still other times the feelings of power, revenge, caring, inquiry that leads to increased skill. At times we try to kill off the aspect of ourself that we do not like and go through all the steps to change etc. So that taking these gods at face value I think is like reading a fairytale rather than, opening ourselves to accepting human nature, more easily seen and understood by reading these stories.
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I guess I am just not into stories about women getting used and abused and then dumped. I guess the Greeks and Romans weren't much into happy endings, especially for women, when it comes to drama. There were parts of it I liked, but as a whole? No.
I liked Iphigenia (Euripides) better. If I remember correctly, we saw some courage and, eventually, some revenge.
Where do you see that in Ovid's story, Frybabe? Nobody beats Ovid's Medea for revenge, good heavens!! I've never seen anything like her for revenge.
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Halcyon I agree with you, Medea certainly was no shrinking violet. She knew what she wanted and used all her powers to get it. She was more powerful than Jason and he did keep his promise by marrying her but did that mean that he truly loved her?
What a Pandora's box that one opens up. I am not sure why we expect the ancient stories to be like Cinderella. Of course they ARE when Walt Disney does them but if you've ever noticed, Disney scares the pants off kids.
If you all have not seen Jim Henson's work you might need to hold on to your chair, yes the Muppet Man did a series on Orpheus which is absolutely horrifying, gave me nightmares for weeks and so did his Daedalus and Icarus. And I am not a child.
Medea is a powerhouse and yet, she's waylaid by love. She's...what is she in the opening monologue? She drives me CRAZY with her whining, she really does, I can't stand it. The woman is like no other and yet she's flummoxed by "love." She even asks herself IS this what's called love? (That was a nice touch). We can see why Cupid and his arrows can bring down the mighty, it sure does with her.
I was surprised in reading this passage last week with one of my face to face classes that a couple of people took up for her, after all she IS losing everything. She does face turning her back on her father, and brother, family and home. She's a perplexed maiden at this point.
Would you describe her that way? But boy howdy she's not the innocent maiden for long.
(Can you not see that coming tho? If he leaves with another, let him die, the ingrate!) hahaha Is THAT love or something else?
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I thought this was a great point, Barbara: but I thought he did marry her and she was responsible for Jason's success and he acknowledges that she was the one who allowed him to be successful... When he goes home to his parents with his wife finding his father very aged this sentence...
We really don't get into the ramifications of his request but I'm glad you mentioned it because it suddenly makes me see something I didn't. And when we get here, we need to look at HER metamorphosis and what caused it. Good point.
My gosh, what a question he asked her!
And this is beautiful: I also think to read these stories and find within ourselves these characters in the form of our feelings, our weak and strong thoughts that are part of our self-esteem. At times we make choices that come from our weakness and other times our strength and still other times the feelings of power, revenge, caring, inquiry that leads to increased skill. At times we try to kill off the aspect of ourself that we do not like and go through all the steps to change etc. So that taking these gods at face value I think is like reading a fairytale rather than, opening ourselves to accepting human nature, more easily seen and understood by reading these stories.
That's a wonderful point. The characters in fiction (which this is) often embody our own feelings and we can then relate to them. I think that's why a lot of people read, period. To find themselves in the characters, and to be able to identify with the characters. I thought I had never had that need, but boy Medea gets on my last nerve with this whining and complaining and vacillation so maybe all this time I have been wrong and I AM relating to it, actually.
We have fairy tales in 2016 too. One has spawned a best selling series of books concerning witches and warlocks, in Harry Potter.
I did notice she wanted a pre-nup. Now that, I thought was funny. Or is it? Is it sad?
Does anybody here feel any empathy for her at all in these opening lines? Why or why not?
PatH, why would Ovid's liking Medea surprise you?
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Mea Culpa. Too early in the morning. I must be confusing her with another story. I did think I remembered Jason abandoning her after he got what he wanted, though. Maybe I ought to read it again. I hate it when I remember things wrong.
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It's not so obvious in this telling, but after some years Jason did leave Medea to marry someone else. That's why she killed their children in revenge. He seems to have treated her properly up to that point, though.
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Pat, I read that too.
I don't know how accurate this is but the following is taken from:Document belonging to the Greek Mythology Link, a web site created by Carlos Parada, author of Genealogical Guide to Greek Mythology
Characters • Places • Topics • Images • Bibliography • PDF Editions
About • Copyright © 1997 Carlos Parada and Maicar Förlag.
Having been expelled from Iolcus, Jason and Medea settled in Corinth, where they are said to have lived happily for ten years. But then Jason, having grown weary of being married to a foreign sorceress, felt ready for a younger and more representative wife. He found her in Glauce , daughter of King Creon of Corinth. But this sort of humilitation and betrayal was more than Medea could bear, and consequently she prevented the new marriage by causing the death of both princess and king in one of the following ways: Pretending that she had accepted her husband's decision, Medea sent to Glauce , as a wedding present, a bridal robe steeped in poison, and when the girl put it on, she caught fire. Creon then, tried to rescued his daughter, but died in the attempt. Others say that the king fell upon her daughter's corpse and could not separate from her, as his flesh was torn from his bones when he tried to rise. And still others say that Glauce died when she threw herself into a well in the belief that its water would be a remedy against Medea's poison. It has also been told that when Medea saw that she, who had been Jason's benefactress, was treated with scorn, with the help of poisonous drugs, made a golden crown, and bade her sons give it as a gift to their stepmother, who, having taken the gift, was burned to death along with Jason and Creon. Apparently, the whole palace was on fire, when these events took place.
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Did not occur to me she killed them because he remarried since she left first flying with her dragon all over what was Greece and parts of nearby territory when she escaped after having been a party to killing Pelias
"She would not have escaped punishment had she not taken to the air, with her winged dragons. Through the high sky, clockwise, she fled,"
aha great Halcyon to fill out the story of what happened after she does all that flying to the Aegean, the Cyclades, the Peloponnese, Aetolia, and Arcadia, to finally Corinth - so it took 10 years.
Unless there is a magic to how children are born that took a couple of years and the boys do not appear to be babies "Medea impiously bathed her sword in the blood of their sons." Aha again so the explanation you found Halcyon does say the sons are hers and Glauce is their step mother --- according to the Kline annotations he says the sons were hers "There she kills Glauce her rival, and then sacrifices her own sons, before fleeing to Athens where she marries King Aegeus."
Well a witch she is - I guess the original witch - she does not die - she vanishes in a mist conjured by her magic spells. Do you think she resurrected during the middle ages when witches not only were famous for their herbal brews and boiling pots of strange 'stuff' but they were supposed to kill off folks who probably died naturally and with no idea how, it was easy to call it witchcraft. Hmm was Medea the prototype for Snow White's step mother do you think?
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I'm going to go back to the first chunk of the story, 1-73, Medea agonizes over her love for Jason. This isn't whining, it's a genuine internal struggle between love and duty. It's her duty to follow her father's wisheshelp him guard the fleece, go along with whatever plans he has for her, NOT to circumvent his plans and run off with some stranger. But love says otherwise. She doesn't even know if it's love or lust or what, all she knows is that it's so powerful that she thinks some god must have had a hand in it.
So she wrestles back and forth, and finally, down at the temple of Hecate, duty wins, and Cupid lowers his bow.
Then Jason walks by, looking particularly handsome, and poof! Duty flies out the window. She will help him.
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We don't go beyond the first bit, do we, where Jason asks her to help his father not age and regain his youth. That's all I can talk about this time anyway.
I saw a wonderful cartoon about that in the New Yorker a couple of weeks ago, a doctor is having a consult and he says to the woman, I can't make you look younger but I can make you look as if you've had expensive plastic surgery. hahhaa
Love that background, Halcyon, and Barbara, that's very useful! Because Ovid seems to be choosing very carefully what he wants to say about this myth and what he doesn't.
Pat, I think it's really interesting how differently people see her deliberations here. Apparently it was quite startling when it was done, but today we're familiar with somebody in the throes of love, from soap operas, where not only women but men freely ruminate about just about everything. I'm trying to decide what to do. Should I or shouldn't I? I'm giving up a lot if I go with him, I could marry somebody here. What to do?
It IS typical of somebody in first love, especially somebody young. He's nailed that.
The lines here I see the better things and I approve them but I go after what is worse are the most famous lines in Ovid and have been quoted since by many famous men. This dichotomy of being able to realize what one should do and then not do it is familiar to anybody on a diet.
But that's not what she's talking about.
And this "sensitivity" to women's feelings apparently indicates Ovid is in tune with the powers of love and understanding of women.
I find it interesting as she deliberates, however, what comes out of those deliberations. Oh I can't decide what to do changes pretty rapidly into so if he is that ungrateful let him die.
Even for 2016 that's a bit...er...off kilter? Sort of along the thinking of Jodie Arrias. Or is it normal?
I find it fascinating to see her "other side," which the stress of her deliberations seems to bring out, I guess because in the next section she transforms from an innocent maiden into a witch/ sorceress/ say what you will.
I also thought the expression, "I am born of a tigress," I will admit, the Latin says, that I was born of a tiger.... was electric. The first thing I thought of was that Tiger Mother book that came out a couple of years ago. Did any of you read it?
I wonder when you get right down to it, how she can win with either choice?
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Sure nails the limitation of choice - either carry out the father's wishes or live your life from your passion - seems like this is the question of today with SO MANY find your passion and work from your passion TED talks and books written. Today's focus appear to be, find meaning in your life by realizing your individual passions - on and on - as if responsibility is now as obsolete as a Victorian button down collar.
And yet, there are many good insights into how, if we live with responsibility as our focus, denying our natural passion we end up sabotaging ourselves. We are told how we make up for the loss of self by giving into alternative activities like eating too much, drinking too much, not developing good relationships, being co-dependent, loosing our ability to feel many emotions including compassion, loyalty even love.
I can see that for Medea - I think when she gives her all to revenge Justin's childhood loss by assisting in the killing of Pelias - it is as if her flying from pillar to post all over the Aegean and other sites she is actually flying from herself and yet, attempting to reconnect with herself through memory of place. Today we would say she had lost her soul. She had lost her feelings except the feelings of revenge so that her life became a fireball of destruction to even destroying her own children.
Is that it - we read today about destroying our inner child, often only to appease another because, we want their love - if we are denied love then, any love offered will suffice so, we give up ourselves for the love of another - hmm back to responsibility versus passion - few of us are taught to be responsible to ourselves and our passions - instead, we are taught to be responsible to what society believes is 'right' and, we still function as King Author questioned - 'right' means 'might'...and we know how that leads to the stories of might clashing with might for superiority from within a home to world power and domination.
Wow so, like a spiral we are still caught in the maelstrom of passion versus responsibility and to whom do we owe our responsibility. How do we balance honoring our inner passions versus, being all that is expected that allows us to receive the love of another as well as, to have the opportunity to love another.
I've been questioning the concept of "live from your passion" that is the mantra of folks like Steve Jobs where as, Mark Cuban says, "Don’t follow your passion; follow your effort." hmm sounds like a similar choice that Medea wrestled with over 2000 years ago.
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Oh I can't decide what to do changes pretty rapidly into so if he is that ungrateful let him die.
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This may be just be her way of rationalizing her argument to stay and do her duty. Kind of blaming him if she stays.
I wonder when you get right down to it, how she can win with either choice?
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I don't think she did win in the end. She picked love and eventually he picked another woman.
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Just for fun to see how differently Ovid starts his Jason from the normal sequence:
http://www.mythweb.com/heroes/jason/jason01.html (http://www.mythweb.com/heroes/jason/jason01.html)
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That's amusing. Ovid seems to do a lot of this--taking one segment of a well-known story and concentrating on it. In this case, the whole first part is summarized in compressed form, mostly strings of names that make no sense if you don't already know, which Ovid's readers did.
And Medea was right to suspect some god of making her fall in love. Hera/Juno, acting through Aphrodite/Venus, was responsible.
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Barbara, your point about how these myth-stories about gods and witches and magic work for us struck a chord with me. You say "I also think to read these stories and find within ourselves these characters in the form of our feelings, our weak and strong thoughts that are part of our self-esteem. At times we make choices that come from our weakness and other times our strength and still other times the feelings of power, revenge, caring, inquiry that leads to increased skill. At times we try to kill off the aspect of ourself that we do not like and go through all the steps to change etc. So that taking these gods at face value I think is like reading a fairytale rather than, opening ourselves to accepting human nature, more easily seen and understood by reading these stories."
A friend of mine is taking a class on Medieval Romance-literature. She's reading a book by Geraldine Heng, "Empire of Magic: Medieval Romance and the Politics of Cultural Fantasy." In the book Heng says that romance literature didn't really have a beginning. It was renewed in medieval times by the social milieu and incidents during the Crusades. I see a comparison with Ovid's stories which I had not thought of in terms of "romance."
This definition of "romance" could fit the Jason and Medea story. "The focus of romance is the psychologically flawed and un-self-aware individual hero on a quest or journey….The female characters of romance…are sometimes peripheral objects of exchange between men, sometimes the goal of the quest, sometimes catalysts to disaster as temptresses, and sometimes the ultimate reward for the ennobling behavior they elicit from the knightly protagonist. Antagonists are either monsters—giants, mythical beasts…or pathological version of the self." http://omnilogos.com/medieval-europe-814-1450-literature/
The following part of Heng's book is what I see in your post, Barb. "romance represents a medium that is neither wholly fantastical nor wholly historical, but in which history and fantasy collide, the one vanishing into the other, almost without trace, at the location where the advantage of both can most easily be mined. For romance does not repress or evade the historical—as has sometimes been claimed—but surfaces the historical, which it transforms and safely memorializes in an advantageous form as fantasy." The violence of family usurpers to the throne, the killing of children, individuals crossing family boundries and siding with strangers or former enemies... are events that were occurring in the time of Ovid and continue to occur. Heng's work posits that framing violent or taboo-breaking historical events in the setting of "fantasy" (heroes, gods, magic, dragons, etc) transforms them and enables us to look at them and learn.
Whether or not we want to think of Ovid's stories as "romance," I think that the idea of transforming violent historical events by placing them in fantastical settings so that we are able to bear looking at them is a useful one in interpreting the stories.
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Wow - fabulous - never thought but yes, I can see how it is easier to look at behavior when it is in the form of fantasy - sorta as we attempt to teach children by having characters play act out the unacceptable behavior and a hero/heroine comes along and shows how to handle the unacceptable.
OK trying to parse the quote -
"The focus of romance is the psychologically flawed and un-self-aware individual hero - the word hero - is that suggesting the flawed character is the masculine partner? on a quest or journey….I am assuming the quest or journey may not involve miles to travel but it could even be an inner journey which I guess would be described as a quest - not sure that in the story of Eloise and Abelard there was a journey although at that time in history he was flawed for allowing himself, a monk to fall in love and the other I am thinking of is the may whose quest was justice or understanding of life as in the quest of many philosophers but then a quest may be broader and I am attempting to be too specific - The female characters of romance…are
sometimes peripheral objects of exchange between men,
sometimes the goal of the quest,
sometimes catalysts to disaster as temptresses, and
sometimes the ultimate reward for the ennobling behavior they elicit from the knightly protagonist.
Antagonists are either monsters—giants, mythical beasts…or pathological version of the self."
Antagonists - a person who actively opposes or is hostile to someone or something; an adversary. Seems to me we see more romances that have human adversaries like parents or society's expectations. Do you think these human adversaries are really pathological versions of the lovers that is really reflecting their own inner hesitation or giving them a cause to rebel against?
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hahaha look Marcie what the Guardian put out today - right in line with Antagonists are either monsters—giants, mythical beasts…
http://www.theguardian.com/childrens-books-site/2016/may/05/top-10-dragons-in-fiction?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Bookmarks+base&utm_term=170633&subid=2902654&CMP=EMCBKSEML3964
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Thanks for the link to the dragons, Barbara. Yes, very timely! I think there is a lot of symbolism in most fantasy and myth that is rich enough--layered enough-- to speak to us differently at each re-reading.
I think in the Jason and Medea story, Ovid uses particularly descriptive, almost soaring, language to portray and evoke passionate emotions. I think early on his description of Jason's encounter with the bulls is wonderful: "The next day’s dawn dispelled the glittering stars. Then the people gathered on the sacred field of Mars and took up their position on the ridge. The king was seated in the middle, clothed in purple, and distinguished by his ivory sceptre. Behold, the bronze-footed bulls, breathing Vulcan’s fire from nostrils of steel. At the touch of their heat the grass shrivels, and as stoked fires roar, or as broken limestone, that has absorbed the heat inside an earthen furnace, hisses explosively, when cool water is scattered over it, so the flames sounded, pent up in their heaving chests and burning throats. Still the son of Aeson went out to meet them." I could really envision the scene.
Are there other passages that struck any of you as particularly "poetic"?
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Best description for a Texas summer day when temps start the day at 98 and quickly hit triple digits. The sun coming up is like the fire of the blacksmith hitting the anvil that is the parched earth. The grass shrivels and the limestone that we live on west of the Balcones fault absorbs the heat so that if a quick rain blows in it looks like steam rising all around us.
Behold, the bronze-footed bulls, breathing Vulcan’s fire from nostrils of steel. At the touch of their heat the grass shrivels, and as stoked fires roar, or as broken limestone, that has absorbed the heat inside an earthen furnace, hisses explosively, when cool water is scattered over it,
I love the first sentence - The next day’s dawn dispelled the glittering stars.
Another lovely - Three nights were lacking before the moon’s horns met, to make their complete orb. When it was shining at its fullest, and gazed on the earth, with perfect form... through midnight’s still silence. Men, beasts, and birds were freed in deep sleep. There were no murmurs in the hedgerows: the still leaves were silent, in silent, dew-filled, air. Only the flickering stars moved.
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"Three nights were lacking before the moon’s horns met, to make their complete orb. When it was shining at its fullest, and gazed on the earth, with perfect form... through midnight’s still silence. Men, beasts, and birds were freed in deep sleep. There were no murmurs in the hedgerows: the still leaves were silent, in silent, dew-filled, air. Only the flickering stars moved."
Wow, Barb, that description is beautiful. The translation is so alliterative and emotive. Is the original wonderful in those or other ways too?
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Do not have any Greek and although studied Latin in High School and used it off and on over the years I am no longer able to translate well enough that a Latin dictionary would have to be my companion so that the idea of knowing how the original was written I too wonder. This look at the words is an eye opener - so busy getting the story line that it is easy to overlook the skill and gift of these translators who can bring the poetry of words to their translation.
I do not think I will ever look again at a quarter or less moon without thinking of bull horns - I grew up talking of the moon when it is less than half full as being a toenail moon.
Medea really does a turn about doesn't she - knowing the Jason story of how he took the Golden Fleece I did not carefully read that bit - but just looked closer and here Medea is described as, "You also, princess among the Barbarians, longed to hold the victorious man: but modesty prevented it. Still, you might have held him, but concern for your reputation stopped you from doing so. What you might fittingly do you did, rejoicing silently, giving thanks, for your incantations, and the gods who inspired them."
So meek and proper and then with the success of her magic you can read how she grows her power with each action putting together the "potent mixture is heating in a bronze cauldron set on the flames, bubbling, and seething, white with turbulent froth."
It is when she joins Pelias’s daughters essentially sacrificing the old man - but what greater evil was he expected to carry out I wonder - we need Halcyon - I bet her book goes into the story of Pelias evil - "the more love each had for him, the quicker she was to act without love, and did evil, to avoid greater evil." From this point on Medea is the opposite of the meek, mild and proper wife. Up until this point the only one calling her a witch is Bacchus.
Seems to suggest the old adage you become how you act - so that regardless everyone was better off with Pelias gone it was still a destructive heartless act and to change fate with herbs would be seen as another destructive act so that she becomes a bundle of flying destruction worthy of being called a witch.
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Just hit me - that is the metamorphose in this story - the change in Medea from a meek and proper wife to this killing banshee. Where Jason is flying high after obtaining the Golden Fleece and is at the mercy of Medea he is still around for a Bear Hunt in a later story. So his change is not near as dramatic as the change is for Medea.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/jason/JasonandA15001530LorenzoCosta.jpg)
We begin again on Monday May 2 with Jason and Medea, and this is probably a Medea that was never covered in any school, so brace selves.
We think of Jason and the Golden Fleece but our retold stories for children do not include much of the reason he managed to do his deeds: the witch (and she was) Medea.
The intro lines are in the previous chapter and they are:
....the young men sailed
With the Minyans as Argonauts, on that first ship,
Seeking the shining wool of the Golden Fleece.
And we're OFF on another adventure!
See you on the 2nd of May~
Bk VII:1-73 Medea agonises over her love for Jason
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106435 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106435)
Bk VII:74-99 Jason promises to marry Medea
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106436 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106436)
Bk VII:100-158 Jason wins the Golden Fleece
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106437 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106437)
Bk VII:159-178 Jason asks Medea to lengthen Aeson’s life
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106 (http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph7.htm#64106)
This will be our first section to cover so we have a lot to talk about and not just a few things.
This may help explain the demise of Pelias. From the same source....
Uncertain fatherhood
There is no agreement concerning the paternity of Pelias, for some say that his father was Cretheus (the son of Aeolus, son of Hellen, son of Deucalion, the man who survived the Flood), whereas others assert that he was Poseidon. On the other hand, there is no controversy concerning his mother: she was Tyro, the daughter that Alcidice (daughter of Aleus, son of Aphidas, son of Arcas, son of Zeus and Callisto) bore to impious Salmoneus (another son of Aeolus), the founder of Elis.
Twins exposed
Now Zeus, tired of Salmoneus' arrogance struck him with a thunderbolt, and so Tyro was brought up by her uncle Cretheus, king of Iolcus (the city in Thessaly on the coast of the Gulf of Pagasae). Having later married the same uncle, she had children by him: Aeson (father of Jason), Amythaon, Pheres, and Talaus. But Pelias and Neleus, she bore to Poseidon: For living in Thessaly, some say, Tyro fell in love with the river god Enipeus, and as she came often to the waters of the river to chant her love, Poseidon, taking the form of the river, lay with her. Since this had been done in secret, she, on giving birth to the twins Neleus and Pelias, abandoned them, but when they were exposed, a horse-keeper found them and saved them. Yet, one of the mares kicked with its hoof one of the children, leaving a livid mark on his face, and because of this mark the child was called Pelias. But others have said that they were found by an old goat-herd, who, noticing that the children were of a better stock than himself, took them home years later, giving them the little leather bag of tokens by which they were recognized. Others have said that Tyro recognized the children she had once exposed by the boat or ark in which she had placed them.
His fate sealed in his youth
Otherwise, it is told that Neleus and Pelias were reared by Sidero, their stepmother and Salmoneus' second wife, and while they lived in Elis, some say, they held the Olympian games after Aethlius, the father of Endymion. Now, this Sidero treated Tyro unkindly; so when the twins, being grown-up, discovered the truth about their mother, they attacked Sidero, who took refuge in the precinct of Hera to no avail; for Pelias, caring nothing about the holiness of the shrine, killed her on the altars. In such manner he incurred the hate of the goddess, thereby setting up a firm base for his own destruction. After Sidero's death, the twins fell out and Neleus, banished by Pelias from Iolcus, migrated to Messenia, where he was received by Aphareus. And whereas Amythaon went to Pylos, Pheres founded Pherae, and Talaus settled in Argos, Aeson and Pelias stayed in Iolcus nurturing their rivalry with regard to Cretheus's throne.
And this....
Extermination of Jason's family
In any case, Pelias, despairing of the return of Jason, caused the death of his father Aeson, and those of his mother and brother Promachus, still an infant. According to some, Aeson asked to be allowed to take his own life, and his request being granted, he drank of a bull's blood and died. His wife hanged or stabbed herself after cursing the man who caused her to die, and little Promachus was slain by Pelias. This is what Jason found at his return. Nevertheless he surrendered the Golden Fleece, and bided his time, sailing with the ARGONAUTS to the Isthmus of Corinth to dedicate the ship to Poseidon.
2131: Medea and the daughters of Pelias, 420-410 BC. Pergamon Museum, Berlin.
Death of Pelias
But when this was done, he asked Medea to devise revenge on Pelias 1. This is why she appeared at the king's palace disguised as a priestess of Artemis, and having met the king's daughters, persuaded them to cut their father into pieces and boil him, promising that this bizarre procedure, added to her drugs, should make the old man young again. Now, who, some may ask, could be so naïve to believe in such absurd promises? Could that perchance be some girls from ancient times? For as some suppose, ancient girls were not as smart as modern ones, who defend themselves very nicely against deceivers, and in addition may carry powerful weapons to secure their own defence. Yes, they were "ancient." But Medea did not underrate the girls (who at that time were not "ancient"), and in order to win their confidence, she cut up a ram and made it into a lamb by boiling it, probably saying, "Do you believe me now?" Being persuaded by such a strong evidence, they then made mince meat of their father and boiled him, as the witch had instructed them to do. Others say that Medea cast mist before them, and by means of drugs formed phantoms that looked real, putting an old ram in a brazen vessel, from which a young lamb seemed to come forth. And so, all the daughters of Pelias (including the noble Alcestis, some affirm) slew their father and cooked him in a brazen caldron. When the girls realized they had been deceived, they fled from the country. It is said that Jason then made himself master of the palace at Iolcus, and handed over the rule to Acastus, himself departing freely with Medea to Corinth (instead of being expelled by Acastus, as others assert). But it has also been said that Jason, moved from Iolcus to Corcyra after the death of Pelias. In any case, it is told that when the daughters stood around Pelias's bed, they hesitated, but Medea encouraged them saying:
"Come, draw your swords, and let out his old blood that I may refill his empty veins with young blood again. In your own hands rests your father's life and youth." (Medea to the daughters of Pelias. Ovid, Metamorphoses 7.333).
And as the poet says, they did the wicked deed in order not to be wicked by denying youth to their father. And they turned their eyes away as they struck the deadly blows. And having plunged Pelias's body into the boiling water, Medea escaped through the air drawn by her winged dragons.
Just hit me - that is the metamorphose in this story - the change in Medea from a meek and proper wife to this killing banshee.
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Medea morphed several times, didn't she? From a spoiled princes to a young woman in love, to a sorceress, using her powers to help Jason, then a kind and loving wife and finally to, as Barb says, a killing banshee. Did her powers grow or was she holding back? It seems to me everything she did was only for her benefit. So, did she really change?
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I think she was holding back. She was already an accomplished sorceress, disciple of Hecate. The herbs and spells she gave Jason were already known to her, as were the herbs she gathered from all over to rejuvenate Aeson. She does seem to use her powers in increasingly evil ways, but is this a change, or just the greater scope she has as her life goes on.
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aha - yes, did she really change - her change was more like putting on various costumes wasn't it and with each change of costume there were skills that accompanied the look - Thanks so much for filling us in Halcyon - this is great to have the background on Pelias - his early life sure had a strange group of parents or step parents or care takers - whew... and the line of parents for Tyro - sounded like that excerpt in the Bible where heritage goes back and back and back.
In fact several times reading these stories there is a similarity to stories in the Bible and since we know these came first hmm you have to wonder - having read and attended a class on Bible History and learning the changes over the years when, both hand writing copies with additions written in the margins that later were included as if part of the originals and the translations from the original often changed the intent of phrases and then not really knowing who wrote the various Bibles that made up the canon we now refer to as 'the' Bible I am now wondering how many of the early Bible stories were 'borrowed' from these myths that show human nature at work.
I wonder if when Jason gets the Golden Fleece and Medea has to put up with not being publicly recognized nor could she jump into his arms as she would have liked if that is the beginning of the saying today about a woman scorned - although I think today's version of the woman scorned is more about a man choosing another woman. Maybe it still fits since Medea does her most brutal act of killing her own children after Jason had remarried.
Spending a little bit of time with each of the stories has been amazing - I've learned so much...
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Don't you just love this - half way remember reading this quote years ago and it was in a British article about how the Greek miracle was its contribution to the formation of Europe's western ideals... anyhow the quote...
Jefferson argued in Notes on the State of Virginia (1782) the main goal of education in a democracy: to enable us to defend our liberty. History, he proposed, is the subject that equips citizens for this. To stay free also requires comparison of constitutions, utopian thinking, fearlessness about innovation, critical, lateral and relativist thinking, advanced epistemological skills in source criticism and the ability to argue cogently. All these skills can be learned from their succinct, entertaining, original formulations and applications in the works of the Greeks.