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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online
Start date: July 18 Discussion Leader: Ella Gibbons
Our Souls at Night
by Kent Haruf
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/oursouls/soulscvr.jpg) | Only 149 pages but not one of them wasted. Haruf writes simply, beautifully, exploring human relationships; all the myriad emotions of life. An original writer, I think it a wonderful book, best book I've read in a long time, and I want to discuss it with others, share and explore our own emotions. Addie makes a proposal!
Join us, you'll be shocked at the first page, but do keep reading.
Read the entire book and then we will begin our discussion on July 18th. |
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You have just a few days to get this book (if you are late, we'll still let you post!) and read it. It won't take long, just 149 pages, but you will want to discuss it with someone, share your view.
Believe me when I say, you will love this book and as they used to say "We'll keep the light on for you."
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I'll try to get the book.
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I've got the book from my library, and am good to go.
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I found the book in the library. I'd actually started it once, then put it back on the shelf. This time I'll read it.
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My book arrived from Amazon - timing on this is not good for me - my daughter arrives from NC on the 18th and I have been working on a transaction that is unbelievably difficult - but I want to read this with the group so I may be haphazard with posts.
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Great! THANKS! Perhaps we should mention a few honors the author received: Whiting Foundation Writers' Award, the Mountain and Plains Booksellers Award, the Wallace Stegner Award , a finalist the National Book Award, the Los Angeles Times Book Prize and the New Yorker Book Award.
Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/what-novelist-kent-haruf-taught-me-about-writing-and-life/2015/06/24/2560bf8e-1378-11e5-89f3-61410da94eb1_story.html
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AND: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/03/books/kent-haruf-sublime-novelist-of-small-town-life-dies-at-71.html?_r=0
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A fellow we would all like to have met, looks like a gentle soul, good husband, good man. I have requested his other books from my library.
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We are all going to be DISCUSSION LEADERS HERE. Ask and answer questions!
This is just something to whet your appetite for the book.
The novel starts with the word "And." "And then there was the day...." Words that we might use to start a conversation with a friend.
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Are we to read it in sections, or all at once?
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I didn't make that clear, did I? Read it all at once and then we are going to talk about it - the whole book - talk as long as we want to or until we run out of something else to say!!! Do we ever? hahahaha
Beginning July 18th.
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Only at midnight! Ok, here I go. I got the "free sample" from Amazon, and it stops just at a most interesting point!
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I got the book yesterday and read it last night! Unusual book!😋😋😋
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Yes, Ann, an unusual book! But one that speaks to "older people" don't you think? At one point Addie says "I made up my mind I'm not going to pay attention to what people think, I've done that too long."
I'm older than Addie, but have yet to reach that point of view! Sounds good, but............
How about you, Ann?
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I'm getting ahead of our discussion here, sorry.
AND...I did want to welcome JOANK, PAT, BARBARA AND NLHOME to the discussion. It's going to be a good one, can't wait.
But we should, perhaps more people are coming???
Here is a picture of our author. I would love to have known him, wouldn't you?
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/soulsatnight/kharuf.jpg)
Photograph: Sophie Bassouls/Corbis
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I got the book from my library and have read it also. I wouldn't have picked it up if you hadn't recommended it, Ella. I'm so glad you did. I'd love to join this discussion. I can't renew the book since more people have requested the copies in the library system but I've put it on hold again and hope I get the other copy soon so I can refer to it.
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Happy to have you posting, Marcie, and thanks for putting Kent Haruf's picture here. As you said, it's hard to get a copy from the library, so many on hold. I just bought a copy, a used one, which is just like new.
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I'd like to join you as well. I got this book this morning at 10:00 and finished it at 1:00pm. I couldn't put this down.
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Mkaren, I'm glad you'll be joining the group. It will be interesting to talk about this book. Yes, a quick read but so much packed into those words.
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Welcome Karen! Yes, a quick read, but a 2nd or third read will give all of us more insight to our author's ideas of getting older and our need for companionship. We'll start to talk about it all in just three days.
Does the title of the book have any meaning? How does it relate to the book?
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Just stepping in temporarily while Ella is unexpectedly in hospital to say this is (this is what I was going to say anyway) a great book choice for discussion, as the reviews and people reading it are ALL over the place.
I read it in one sitting, too, Karen, and now I'm ready to discuss. I think. I don't think I have ever changed my mind more about a book than this one, even as to the purpose of it. Or the theme. Or much of anything else?
We'll start on the 18th, which as Pat notes below, is actually tomorrow.
For starters, we are going to follow Ella's inventive new ideas about this one and ALL be DL's for this one and ALL ask the questions.
So let's see what we can do with Ella's #1:
1. Does the title of the book have any meaning? How does it relate to the book?
And I'll throw one in, too:
2. What is this book really about?
I personally can't answer either one of those and have been arguing with myself all day about #2. What do you think?
OR if you don't like either of those, what do YOU want to say about the book? What struck you about it?
The floor is now open for your thoughts!
Everyone is welcome!
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You're living in the future. It'll be the 18th shortly. See you in the morning.
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Well it fits the story, doesn't it? Old age. No contacs for 6 weeks before hand so we can be blind as a bat in week 3 (our present week) before cataract surgery. What fun! I was rather surprised to see 18 or what I thought was 18 on the post I made yesterday, and panicked a bit, but when i looked in this morning behold today looks lke 18. Allllll rightie, then.
Perhaps I am living my own Groundhog Day movie? Hahaha
Since I'm here, I will go first.
I personally felt the first half of the book was quite lovely. Sort of a reach out if you're lonely and do something about it and look at all the wonderful benefits. It was odd, though, was it odd to anybody but me? The bed thing. Why the bed? I wonder if the author's own writing in the dark, (he pulled a cap over his head and typed in the dark), made him think that there's more sharing of deep feeling and intimacy and so forth by doing that in the dark and that's why she picked the bed?
OR?
I can't believe she missed Carl and sharing in the bed because Carl withdrew emotionally when his daughter died. But maybe she did?
She said let's not care what anybody else thinks. I love the freedom of that. But then....she did.
Lots of tantalizing questions, super choice, Ella.
What do you all think? Anyhing surprise you about the book?
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Ella, you have a knack for picking good books for discussion.
Was anyone else struck by the tone of the writing? To me it has an odd, misty dreamlike quality to it, which fits the story.
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I came to this book knowing nothing about it or about the author, although I had seen the movie version of Plainsong. I usually skip over books that I deem "too short," but I really love this book club so I took a chance. The book sat on my bedside table for a week or so and then last Thursday I began to read:
And then there was the day when Addie Moore made a call on Louis Waters. It was an evening in May just before full
dark.
I don't think I have ever felt more "welcomed" into a book. It was clear that I was "dropping" into the middle of an on-going story. "And then," in addition to giving me the clue that I was part of a conversation that had already been underway for a long time, but those words were the exact words a storyteller uses to show a shift of subject. Now I was moving to the part about Addie Moore and Louis Waters. I, the reader, was now being included in the narrative. The time is evening and the month is May and it is just before "full dark." The last two words gave me a sense of foreboding and a clue to what the title may mean - - not total understanding but a hint that "the end" is coming and not just the end of day. Those words reminded me of the fears I used to feel as a little girl when I would wake up in the dark and rush to my father's side of the bed, sit on the floor and listen to him breathe. There was no way I was going to stop reading now.
At first I thought the book was about old age, particularly the loneliness of old age. Then I thought about living in a small town, or the relationship between grown children and parents. But mostly I got lost in the relationship between Addie and Louis.
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Karen, I loved this:
I usually skip over books that I deem "too short," but I really love this book club so I took a chance.
We are so excited to see you say that! But why do you skip over books that are short?
I don't think I have ever felt more "welcomed" into a book. It was clear that I was "dropping" into the middle of an on-going story. "And then," in addition to giving me the clue that I was part of a conversation that had already been underway for a long time, but those words were the exact words a storyteller uses to show a shift of subject.
Good heavens, I missed that beginning entirely! The joy of discussing a book with somebody else. It DOES start with "and." And how clearly you've put the effect and then with the "night."
The time is evening and the month is May and it is just before "full dark." The last two words gave me a sense of foreboding and a clue to what the title may mean - - not total understanding but a hint that "the end" is coming and not just the end of day.
Well now that I've read THIS, I am wondering what the "end" is.
Is there a difference between our perceptions by night and by day? I've often noticed that something I'm worried to death over at night sort of disappears or at least is better with the light of day.
Pat: Was anyone else struck by the tone of the writing? To me it has an odd, misty dreamlike quality to it, which fits the story.
No, once again the tone escaped me, but now that you mention it, I do see it in the long descriptive "and" passages. I did notice the mechanics tho, which really stood out to me. For instance the conversations with no quotation marks, makes you read faster and faster, all that white space, the "let's not care what people think" about punctuation? sort of mirroring Addie's thoughts.
But THEN the "ands" start. Long paragraphs suddenly. And those ARE dreamlike in quality. Like a child describing something breathlessly "an then we took a walk, an' then we had a picnic, sandwiches an' chicken salad, an lemonade made from fresh lemons, an' (it's hard to do, it looks easy but it's not, to write like that), long happy dreamlike passages. Of happiness. They reminded me for some reason of some of the music in the Candy Crush games.Where the orchestra (and that's a real orchestra hired for that purpose) plays music you could swing your hands to and dance like the hills are alive sort of thing. Those instances I did notice and now that you mention it, they were dream like. I didn't get it in all the book, tho.
Why do you think he did a dreamy tone for the book?
When I saw the mechanical differences in the printed page I thought to myself, why, this man is a poet. Interesting that Louis wanted to be, too.
But there's something else that stood out for me the most. I'm waiting to see if anybody else noticed it or if I dreamed it in the night. :)
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I have been walking around my house asking myself, "Why do I skip short books?" After I have recognized that one of my all-time favorite books is Cry, the Beloved Country (Alan Paton) for a lot of the same reasons that I like Our Souls. The quality of the writing is exceptional. Each paragraph, each sentence, tells me as someone else's six pages. That being true I, have to say I love "very big books". I think it is the complexity of these books: many plots with many characters, development over time, twists and turns. My first contemporary "big book" (Also my first paperback)was Exodus which I was lost in for days and since then too many to list. I keep telling myself to stop this avoidance of books because of size, which is the same as because of the cover. I don't know what this says about me as a reader. I used to blame this on not liking The Old Man and the Sea or The Pearl and generalizing this. It no longer makes sense, and I have plans to seek out more short books. By the way, in all fairness to Hemingway and Steinbeck, I devoured A Farewell to Arms and East of Eden.
Any recommendations?
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Karen, I too felt I was coming into an ongoing story. We're meeting Addie and Louis later in life. I was thinking maybe I'll learn more about their early years but I'm learning about how they are now, after many years of living.
They way that Haruf tells the story made me feel it was natural, though admittedly odd, for Addie to ask if Louis would share her bed to talk. Pat, maybe that's part of the dreamlike quality you mention. This story is believable to me as a story. We're so gently placed in the world of Addie and the characters have such a genuine, honest quality that I trusted them and their choices.
Ginny, you ask about night versus day. Why didn't Addie just ask Louis to come over in the afternoons and talk? Talking at night in bed does seem more intimate than talking during the day. It seems like a step that a couple usually take after they know each other a while. Addie is skipping over the "getting to know you as a stranger" part. She's in her later years and time is precious. Both she and Louis seem willing to take a risk to share conversation, even just ordinary conversation, in an intimate setting. They are baring their souls/inner selves and the quiet of night time seems to me to be symbolically a more vulnerable time than the day to do that. They seem to be taking a risk to live fully without worrying about what others might think.
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felt I did understand the night part. When my husband died, suddenly and unexpectedly, the worst part was lying in bed and glancing over and seeing "he's not there! I'm alone." Being alone at other times didn't feel so alone-ish: it would often happen in the to-ing and fro-ing of our lives.
f course, it's unrealistic that anyone would try to start a relationship that way. But this isn't about that kind of realism.
the relationship did have a dreamlike quality: perhaps this might be a relationship a woman might dream about. Louis was too passive in the relationship to be a real person: first the perfect companion, then the perfect "grandfather" to the perfect grandson (who gets the perfect dog).
The dog is the perfect dog, in spite of being imperfect (abnormal foot). Maybe there's a moral there.
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I've known many women Addie's age who had a "gentleman friend", with varied living arrangements. As far as I know, they didn't face the same reaction from neighbors. But I don't live in a small town. Was that realistic? I don't know about family members.
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Louis really only seemed real when we learned he had had an affair. Interesting that he did to Tamara (the other woman) exactly what Addie later did to him: suddenly say "I can't do this any more. I have to think of the child," He acknowledges how much he hurt Tamara, but Addie never acknowledges how much she hurt him. I didn't like her very much when she called him up and said let's talk on the phone in secret.
Of course, the practical part of me said In the face of Addie's son's threats, why the heck didn't they just get married. Since the son was scared of losing his mother's money, Louis could have signed a "pre-nup" renouncing any money from her. they could have kept the same living arrangements: no law that a married couple has to live together.
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Karen, I do have one, but it's a novella, but if you have not read (unlikely, I know because I know you are well read) The Palace Thief (a novella in a book of short stories with that title) by Ethan Canin, I would read it, because I personally would be interested in your perspectives on it.
It was made into a movie with a changed ending and title with Kevin Kline. I don't recommend the other stories, just that one. :)
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That's a good point, in fact, several good points, Marcie, about why they might have moved to the more intimate setting right away! The dark seems a good time to spill secrets, sometimes like the Internet, where you can't see and be intimidated by the expressions on the faces of those listening.
Like you, I trusted the characters, but now that I've read Pat and JoanK, I am beginning to wonder if it actually was all a dream? Or in fact partly a dream? Her dream? Which one is the more developed or real as a character? I see Joan K has taken this up...
Very thoughtful and excellent thoughts here!
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Louis really only seemed real when we learned he had had an affair. Interesting that he did to Tamara (the other woman) exactly what Addie later did to him:
JoanK, my goodness, you take my breath away. Interesting? I'll say. Weren't Addie and Louis's wife friends? Do you think there's something more than an interesting coincidence here?
Oh i read that back over and I see you are saying Louis is too perfect. I wonder. He certainly is described as perfect. I thought the bit about the dog was too pat, or you could say too perfect ....here comes little Jamie and they form a family . That's very sweet. But then perfect Louis goes out and gets a dog and I thought to myself this is just too much..... it's too pat, so now I'm wondering if that was just a dream? A wish fulfillment. And Addie is the source of the narration.
Of course, the practical part of me said In the face of Addie's son's threats, why the heck didn't they just get married.
Oh Addie answered that one, and that's one of the two things that stood out at me in the book.
She said that Jamie was the only person who loved her.
She apparently felt that Gene would not allow her to see him.
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Two great questions from Joan K here:
But I don't live in a small town. Was that realistic? I don't know about family members.
I don't know, what do you all think? A lot was said by the town who seemed to know by radar.
And then this one: He acknowledges how much he hurt Tamara, but Addie never acknowledges how much she hurt him. I didn't like her very much when she called him up and said let's talk on the phone in secret.
Now here we have several things.
What did you all think of Addie at the end? Do you admire her stance and her suggestion to talk on the phone? Do you feel sorry for her? Do you dislike her or like her more or?
And then there's Louis who said he felt worse about hurting his mistress than he did his wife..... Something about....here it is, page 42, tho it's not got the page number on it:
"But I think I regret hurting Tamara more than I do hurting my wife. I failed my spirit or something. I missed some kind of call to be something more than a mediocre high school English teacher in a little dirt blown town."
Failed your spirit? I think/ hope before this is over we can discuss Mr. Louis and his failed spirit, maybe we can discuss both of the protagonists (is there a main one) and their characters.
SUPER start on a discussion!
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I'm at a loss for words after reading the first three pages. The intense drama is overwhelming. Despite the gossipy first sentence. 'And here's something else I can tell you about Addie:'
And how can Louis allow her to walk off alone into the dark. Any decent guy would have walked her home. He has just heard how Addie feels about the nights. It was panic which brought her to his door.
'I'm talking about getting through the night....The nights are the worst. Don't you think....I end up taking pills to go to sleep and reading too late and then I feel groggy the next day. No use at all to myself or anybody else.'
'Help me through the night.' The dark night of Addie's soul. Be a knight about it, Louis. Here's your damsel in distress, coming to you in the twilight.
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Oh well now it's perfect, THERE is Jonathan. I have missed you in our discussions and here we have a man's POV, and just LOOK at it:
And how can Louis allow her to walk off alone into the dark. Any decent guy would have walked her home. He has just heard how Addie feels about the nights. It was panic which brought her to his door.
Now there is a man's point of view, never occurred to me. The very thing Tomereader was searching for, for her own group's read. I guess I was seeing her as brave, and you are seeing her panic and how she feels about the nights!!!
"Decent" guy? I will be on the edge of my seat to hear Jonathan's views on the characters in this one!
'Help me through the night.' The dark night of Addie's soul. Be a knight about it, Louis.
Wow. Wow wow wow. I will repeat my thoughts that Haruf is a poet but I never caught that allusion. Welcome, welcome, Jonathan!
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Last night, I spent a looooong time writing my initial post and lost it!!!! So, today, using my laptop computer, I will try to recall what I said! :) :) :)
First off, I had the same reaction that Jonathan had when Louis just watched Addie walk home in the dark. Granted, it was a small town and probably safe but where are his manners. Or was he just in shock over her idea? Doesn't matter, he should have walked her home.
So, if Addie hadn't made her suggestion, we wouldn't have a book of a different way of living out one's end years to discuss. Dreanlike? Yes, but they did have a lot of fun in the ideal way. Like Louis teaching Jamie how to play ball, then taking them all to a ball game, even elderly Ruth. And their camping trip was a learning experience for Jamie too.
I also liked Ruth's remarks to the cashier in the market and Louis's attack on one of the old guys who made the crack about his staying up all night at Addie's and then working all day in his yard. When he tells Addie that night, he remarks that he doesn't want her hurt by anyone over what they are doing. Its really no one's business, is it? Are all small towns like this? Seems like I have heard that they are. Never lived in one this small. As my daughter says, I am a big city gal.
So Addie ends their living arrangement so she won't lose Jamie's love. And then, although she wants it kept secret, she wants them to talk on the phone at night. Hmmmm, will it really be the same?
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Oh I'm sorry you had that experience! But you've made up for it this morning. :)
I got up thinking we must have 20 questions so far in this discussion but rather than me repeating them here I think it's better for us to read the posts and see the way they are expressed, as each person has done such a great job. I read one of them three times and got something different every time, so have changed a prior post, too.
The one question I got up with, is the dream like one. Who, after all, is telling this story? Whose point of view IS it? IS this one of those omniscient narrators? Clever, his telling it almost all in quotations, you'd think that would tell you right there, wouldn't you?
But then there are the dream like things. So whose dream is it? Do we ever, for instance, see any feelings not narrated? Is this narrator (is there one?) reliable?
That's what I got up with today, what do you think about any or all of the questions here? And now Ann has added some great ones!
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online
Start date: July 18 Discussion Leader: Ella Gibbons
Our Souls at Night
by Kent Haruf
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/oursouls/soulscvr.jpg) | Only 149 pages but not one of them wasted. Haruf writes simply, beautifully, exploring human relationships; all the myriad emotions of life. An original writer, I think it a wonderful book, best book I've read in a long time, and I want to discuss it with others, share and explore our own emotions. Addie makes a proposal!
Join us, you'll be shocked at the first page, but do keep reading.
Read the entire book and then we will begin our discussion on July 18th. |
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Addie was used to walking alone in the dark; she had been doing everything alone for years. She appears independent, self-sufficent, and unafraid. In a small town, particularly before the last months, people generally feel more safe. Partly because the crime rate is very low or because everyone is watching. I grew up in Gardiner, Maine, pop.c 6000. My mother used to say that before the four of us got home from school, she would have had a call from someone telling her what one or more of us had done.
So, it did not seem strange to me that she walked home Or that he doesn't offer or insist.
Yes , small towns are like Holt, Co. People do mind each others business and tell everyone else. They sometimes embellish or put their own spin on the story. But somehow, as angry as you get once in a while, you get used to "living in a fish bowl" knowing, as Addie does, that discovery is inevitable. So you don't do something or you really begin not to care. In this aspect, Addie and Louis are typical residents in a small town.
I have felt Addie's loneliness; it just goes on. She has friends that she does "things" with, and her neighbor Ruth and children who "live away" and don't pay much attention to her. A friend of mine tells the story of her mother when her father died: Kathy was listing all of the activities her mother could still do and all the people she could call. Her mother stopped her and said,"But I won't have anyone who thinks I'm special anymore." All she could see was empty years without intimacy, touching, without talking in the dark. The worst time for Addie is in bed in the dark: she doesn't sleep she just feels. My friend Mike says,"The decision to do nothing to change a painful situation, is still a decision." She decides to act : So, Addie, courageous Addie, walks a block and knocks on Louis door.
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So, Ann, you also thought that about the manners involved. Possibly the reason that never occured to me is I don't see Louis AS a Knight as Jonathan so cleverly caught. Nothing is normal here, to me.
You mention Ruth. I can't understand what Ruth is doing in this story, how she advances it. So she is the only person who supports their clandestine "affair?"
Something here is not right but I can't figure it out.
So, if Addie hadn't made her suggestion, we wouldn't have a book of a different way of living out one's end years to discuss.
Unless it's all in her mind. Is Gene all in her mind? So if not maybe Gene's reaction is to something else, perhaps?
I tend to take people as they present themselves till I know better. Gets me into a lot of trouble. :)
And then, although she wants it kept secret, she wants them to talk on the phone at night. Hmmmm, will it really be the same?
What a good question. First thought of course not. Second thought maybe that's all it ever has been? Third thought, what does SHE want? (Karen just answered that beautifully). The bed thing still is strange, as Marcie said it's a skipped step.
Is Addie being honest with us? How do we explain her? This is the kind of book it's easier, far, to ask questions about than try to answer them.
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Karen, we were posting together! Thank you for that insight into small towns and your insight into the character of Addie.
So you find her courageous, loved the part about But somehow, as angry as you get once in a while, you get used to "living in a fish bowl" knowing, as Addie does, that discovery is inevitable. So you don't do something or you really begin not to care. In this aspect, Addie and Louis are typical residents in a small town.
That's a great explanation!
"But I won't have anyone who thinks I'm special anymore." All she could see was empty years without intimacy, touching, without talking in the dark.
And how does she end up?
I liked this: My friend Mike says,"The decision to do nothing to change a painful situation, is still a decision."
So how do YOU personally see her at the end? Tragic? What would WE have done in her situation?
GENE seems to be an issue here, and we've not talked about him, either.
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And I'll just say one last thing: Addie doesn't seem to have much courage where Gene is concerned, does she? Note the exchanges between them.
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As disappointed as I was that Addie did not stand up to Gene, I understood that decision. She knew her son to be a selfish and neglectful father whose marriage was crumbling, so he "dropped" his son on her and left. She could see the emotional turmoil the grandson was in when he came to her, and she saw how changed during the summer. So, when Gene threatened to cut her off from him unless she ended the relationship, she ended it. Now, I am not going to bore you with the long story, but my daughter-in-law kept my granddaughters from me for two years. I was devastated and decided to forget my pride and beg to be allowed to be a grandmother to the girls again. I also decided I would do whatever she wanted me to so I could keep my granddaughters. So I have great sympathy for Addie's situation and her choice. I do not see her as lacking in courage, and in fact I think it took courage to break ties with a man she cared a great deal for. I am still undecided about the phone call thing. I need to think more about whether the suggestion to make secret phone calls is a selfish decision on her part and hurtful to Louis or a good idea for both of them.
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Yes, when you put it that way, I can see, too, how that took courage from Addie to end the relationship with somebody who brought her so much joy and longed for closeness for the sake of the grandchild. I am glad you are now able to see your grandchildren, too!
I wish she had had that courage earlier in dealing with Gene, but it's easy to second guess somebody's situation when you are not there. I was kind of shocked actually when he said something about (I would have to look back) I don't know what I'm going to do about my business and I think she said I don't have any money or much money. I need to go back and find it. I thought that perhaps they had had this conversation before, for her to have that reaction. I didn't mark in this book, intending to donate it to the library when I finished but now I do need to go back and find some of this stuff.
Grandchildren are so important, if we're lucky to be around them. I wonder which of us, forced to give up something that is described as lyrical as this relationship was, would choose Louis over a grandchild. I wonder what surety she has that Gene will keep to that bargain.
A part of me says she didn't have to start in the bed, she didn't have to do it this way that anybody could object to; they could have started in other ways and if so they might have continued as friends without Gene's or anybody else's objections. But she wants to live without caring what others think. And I don't want to blame her.
Isn't it ironic that she's being, at the last, condemned by the same thing she fought so bravely against? Public opinion. Because that seems all that's motivating Gene, or what could be motivating him?
Seen in this light, I am thinking that she is not selfish at all wanting the phone call at night, poor thing, it's all she has left of those halcyon moments when she could wear her fancy dress at last. So THAT'S sad.
I wonder if there's a message there, and if so, what it is.
What do you all think?
I'm still not sure what "our souls at night" means, either.
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"Our souls at night" - maybe that time when we "bare our souls" to ourselves and when we want to share with someone close? There's "pillow talk" for some. I see in some relationships, one of my sons and his wife definitely, that bedtime is their time to share their days and their thoughts. Right now, when he's many time zones away, he calls her before he turns in.
As for the book, in a way I'm sorry I read it. I worked with elders and saw many whose lives were limited or controlled by their adult children, elders afraid that what little love or attention they got would be taken away if they didn't comply. It's a sad thing to be so vulnerable and be in a situation where that vulnerability is exploited by someone a person loves. I'm thinking it was mostly the financial situation that ruled Gene, and that kind of elder financial exploitation is hard to combat, when it's emotional blackmail rather than out-and-out taking. For me, that overwhelmed any deeper meaning.
At the end I was angry at the son, angry at Addie because she raised Gene to be so selfish, but decided she was just as selfish so he had two such parents to learn from. I was sad mostly for the little boy. Louis was a good role model.
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Nlhome! What a great post! You must be a mind reader, I was just coming in to ask what we thought, how we felt about Addie at the end and about her relationship with Gene.
Parents and grown children! What causes this rift between them? WHY is Gene acting this way? I was irritated at her for the way she acted around Gene, before he acted out, but I wonder if I shouldn't have been more compassionate. I mean IS the parent ALWAYS to blame for a child who grows up less than perfect?
Such a tragedy the whole family suffered and I wonder since Carl withdrew from the boy, if she didn't try to overcompensate and perhaps Gene is the result. In difficult children, is it always the parent to blame?
I am sorry to hear there's so much of this going around. Is there anything that a 70 year old can DO when this situation arises? Karen has talked about her own searing experience.
What can you DO at 70? Which takes the most courage?
I really liked your I'm thinking it was mostly the financial situation that ruled Gene, and that kind of elder financial exploitation is hard to combat, when it's emotional blackmail rather than out-and-out taking. For me, that overwhelmed any deeper meaning.
That was a twist at the end wasn't it? The real Addie and Louis came out bit by bit and at the end.....I've been struggling all yesterday with the "meaning." What this is ABOUT?
One word. VERY hard to do. Ageing? Loneliness? Exploitation? Selfishness? Who is the more selfish in this?
This: "Our souls at night" - maybe that time when we "bare our souls" to ourselves and when we want to share with someone close? There's "pillow talk" for some. I see in some relationships, one of my sons and his wife definitely, that bedtime is their time to share their days and their thoughts. I think has the title in hand.
Marcie mentioned something like that, too: I don't think of "souls" in that way, it flummoxed me at first.
She said in an intimate setting. They are baring their souls/inner selves and the quiet of night time seems to me to be symbolically a more vulnerable time than the day to do that.
I don't know. The last thing I want to do at night is talk about a crisis in my own life. Maybe it's healing if you talk to another person about stressful things, and they give reassurance or bolstering? But before sleep? For me to even think about it keeps it going all night long in dreams. I definitely don't need that. I didn't realize that the brain works over the issues of the day while you sleep, I just read that. But I am not sure of the answer, maybe it IS better to talk about it before sleep. I need calm pleasant amusement before I go to sleep.
Thank you for that wonderful post!! So today's issue (or pick one of the 100 on the floor, is How do you feel about Addie at the end?
And....is there anything else she should or could have done as a solution to Gene's demands? What in your own personal experience COULD be done?
I have my own little grandson here today through Friday and we're off to the nearest town for a day at the movies, etc. It's not a Gene situation (thank God) but his annual week at the farm, so I'll be back tonight. Addie has taken over my thoughts, and I look forward tonight to see your thoughts.
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)In the end, I think Addie did the right thing in calling Louis and asking him to continue their relationship by phone and again at night. And he was open and glad to do it. Their wonder filled summer had meant so much to both of them, why not continue their pillow talks even if by phone. They were just two old lonely old folks who found a way to share their lives. They deserved the closeness they had found they needed.
My son and his wife stay in touch when he is away, every night. My husband and I also do that. It's always been an important part of our lives.
Why was Ruth included here? Maybe to show us what good neighbors Louis and Addie were. Him taking care of Ruth's yard (winter and summer) and Addie making sure Ruth got to the grocery every week. Remember how Louis included Jamie in his yard work? Teaching him how take care of a garden? Setting a good example. Somehow I got the feeling that Gene and his wife weren't going to do things like that.
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I'm not sure that I see Addie as selfish. Things happen in many people's lives that can explain some of their actions. The death of Carl and Addie's daughter Connie deeply affected Carl, Addie and Gene. Connie died when she was 11 and Gene was 5. Gene and Connie were happily playing in the front yard and Gene was chasing her with a water hose when she was hit by a car.
"After Connie's death Carl wasn't himself. He seemed all right on the outside when he was with other people away from home and at his office but it changed him. ... He didn't pay as much attention to Gene after that and when he did it was often critical to correct him. Many times I talked to him about it and he said he would try to do better. But it was never the same and it affected Gene... I tried to make up for that but that didn't work either."
"We [Carl and Addie] stopped making love for a year after Connie's death... Then when he was interested again it wasn't much good. It was more just physical than anything loving and emotional. After a year or so we stopped altogether."
"Carl was sick off and on before he died... I took care of him... We had that long time of joined life, even if it wasn't good for either one of us. That was our history."
"Gene stayed closed up like his father. He got more so in high school, then he went off to college and we didn't see him even as much as we did before."
I can see why Addie wants her relationship with Louis. She values emotional closeness. I can see how Gene became closed up like his father and why he wants to control everything and everyone. And why he worries about what people will think about his mother's relationship with Louis. He does say that he thinks Louis is after his mom's money but I don't think that money is his motivation for wanting his mother to stop seeing Louis.
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I have been rereading the passages that involve Gene trying to work up some empathy for him and its not working. I know his sister was killed with him watching and his father pushed him away - -all horrible things with long-lasting impact, but I am still not moved to take his side. What do you think? Is he at all a sympathetic character?
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I read the opening line, and then I went back and read it several (really!) more times - out loud. After that, the first thing I noticed (and liked a lot for some reason that I don't have an explanation for) was the absence of quotation marks around the lines of dialogue. It did make it seem more like poetry than prose; and maybe it just gave it all a more universal feel - like they could be the words (or thoughts or sensations) of anyone, not just the protagonist - even belonging to any reader - even me. That gave me a sense of almost owning the story right from the beginning.
When I read the author bio on the book jacket, I experienced a sort of deflation when I read that he was no longer on the planet breathing the same air as the rest of us. I experienced it as LOSS!
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Gene strikes me as a totally traumatized fellow whose personality was partially freeze-dried by his 5 year old experience (for starters). I think fear is the root of all so-called negative emotions/feelings, and his character shows how it can and does morph into anger, suspicion, contempt, and even hate. But he also displays a palpable sense of vulnerability that is such a contrast to his brave, strong mother - who even (mostly) relinquished a relationship of great value to her, all the while giving the greatest consideration to her grandson. I feel pretty sure she provided the same to Gene, but it didn't have the same impact or something. Gene just seems very shut down and stuck. At first his behavior and words exasperated me, but we didn't get his complete story - this is Addie's story.
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Another thought: I like that Addie and Louis continue their phone conversations - it is kind of like a lifeline or a tether Connecting them to their geographically parallel lives, if you get my meaning.
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". [Gene] does say that he thinks Louis is after his mom's money but I don't think that money is his motivation for wanting his mother to stop seeing Louis."
I see it another way. gene is someone who has never fully functioned as an adult, and has always run back to his mother for money and shelter when he was in trouble. he has come to think of her money as his money. now he sees a "rival" who can take that away from him. That is why I suggested that Louis might be able to bring Gene around if he signed a paper saying he would not accept any money from Addie.
I have seen this fear of their parent's being taken advantage of in other children of elders I have known. it is realistic: there are all sorts of "Senior scams". It can also be delfish if the child is counting on the parent's money, or afraid that they might have to support their patent.
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I don't know which is more illuminating, reading the book passages a second time or reading your posts again but it's all really a great experience.
Leah!!! Welcome, welcome! I had read but not participated in the last book club discussion and loved your posts and was sorry you were not here, and here you ARE!!
Ann, you make a very cogent point for Addie suggesting that she and Louis continue their phone calls at night. It might not be as good as what they had but at least as you say, "They were just two old lonely old folks who found a way to share their lives. They deserved the closeness they had found they needed."
Also I'm not 100 percent sure that Gene is going to stay in the area. If he takes his family elsewhere I am pretty sure that he won't be thinking of Addie, and she'll lose out on both of them, so talking to Louis is a good idea for several reasons.
I have yet to understand how Gene dictates to Addie. I mean I know why she puts up with it, but what makes him think he can do it?
Adult children. It must be a difficult thing for them to approach their parents with concern. Takes a lot of diplomacy. :)
Why was Ruth included here? Maybe to show us what good neighbors Louis and Addie were. Him taking care of Ruth's yard (winter and summer) and Addie making sure Ruth got to the grocery every week.
Now there you have picked up on two things I had forgotten, Louis's taking care of the yard, lots of bonus points for him and Addie taking her shopping, ditto. But Louis, Louis had an affair, and was sorrier for the mistress than his wife. How can these two things be reconciled?
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Marcie, you remind us that Gene was the younger child. I don't know why I had thought he was the elder. What an awful thing that must have been, and that quote you gave reminds ME that Addie DID try to make it up to him and she sees that does not work. Fathers and sons. So poor little 5 year old Gene lacking a father's reassurance withdraws, himself.
But now why do you say this? I can see how Gene became closed up like his father and why he wants to control everything and everyone. And why he worries about what people will think about his mother's relationship with Louis.
Now this is quite interesting to me. Are you saying that an urge to control is based on....How would controlling his mother at this late stage make up for anything and why does he care what the neighbors think...he's not living in the area, is he? I forget where Gene lives. He's unlikely to ever hear a rumor? I am having a problem (1) liking Gene and (2) figuring him out.
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Karen, I agree: I have been rereading the passages that involve Gene trying to work up some empathy for him and its not working
Not for me either. :)
What do you think? Is he at all a sympathetic character?
For my part, no. What is there redeeming about him? He dumps his child (this might be seen as caring for the child's welfare), whines about his job (is he asking or hinting for money, how OLD is he?) harranges his mother about things none of his business tho I CAN see as a parent that he might be taken aback by his son in bed with this strange man and his mother. Surely there is some way to explain that, others do.
I mean it's not as if it's X rated or anything or why could Louis not come by in the day time when the child is sleeping over? Who made that decision? I think SHE did? I think say what you will about not caring what people think, she did, didn't she? In the end she did for the greater good and I can understand if a child is involved. What kind of person threatens to keep his child from his own mother? I mean, really. No I don't see anything whatsoever sympathetic about him.
But that's just me. What do the rest of you think?
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Leah, oh I liked this on the lack of quotations!
like they could be the words (or thoughts or sensations) of anyone, not just the protagonist - even belonging to any reader - even me. That gave me a sense of almost owning the story right from the beginning.
I can't type so leaving them out of anything is my idea of super. I never noticed the effect it had on the reader!!!
When I read the author bio on the book jacket, I experienced a sort of deflation when I read that he was no longer on the planet breathing the same air as the rest of us. I experienced it as LOSS!
Yes when you think about it, apparently he knew he was in his last days and he struggled to finish...was it a chapter a day? Or a page? I can't recall. Gave him something to look forward to, that does give a different slant on it.
My grandmother who wrote a book did the same thing. It's motivating when your health is failing. Of course she was a lot older as well. But to ME knowing it's done under those circumstances makes it more...I dunno.
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Leah: I think fear is the root of all so-called negative emotions/feelings, and his character shows how it can and does morph into anger, suspicion, contempt, and even hate. But he also displays a palpable sense of vulnerability that is such a contrast to his brave, strong mother - who even (mostly) relinquished a relationship of great value to her, all the while giving the greatest consideration to her grandson. I feel pretty sure she provided the same to Gene, but it didn't have the same impact or something. Gene just seems very shut down and stuck. At first his behavior and words exasperated me, but we didn't get his complete story - this is Addie's story.
Now that was something. Fear? What has Gene to fear? I can see him being afraid she's leave all her money to this new man as Joan K mentions next and it does happen. My goodness how many lawsuits from disaffected first families over fortunes left to the new spouse of any sex. If it's not money, what can it be?
He wasn't close to his father, so why should he expect his mother at 70 to....is he jealous? I am struggling to see fear here. Does he seem realistic to you?
JoanK said way back there that Louis really only seemed real when we learned he had had an affair....She felt he was too passive in the relationship to be a real person: first the perfect companion, then the perfect "grandfather" to the perfect grandson (who gets the perfect dog).
How do we all see Louis? Let's talk about Louis a minute. On the surface he looks almost too good to be true, she's definitely the dominant character here. We've read the whole book, do you all see him as perfect? He LOOKS perfect by description (is it Addie's?) Is this part of the dreamlike atmosphere?
I don't. I don't see him as perfect at all. In so many little ways, and I DO think that "passive" is very astute. He seems very passive, I agree with that. Of course he did have that affair, is that passive? But he seems to become proactive with the little boy. Did HE have any children?
If we consider fear at the heart of all negative emotions, are they all afraid in this story?
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This was great, Joan K!
I see it another way. gene is someone who has never fully functioned as an adult, and has always run back to his mother for money and shelter when he was in trouble. he has come to think of her money as his money. now he sees a "rival" who can take that away from him. That is why I suggested that Louis might be able to bring Gene around if he signed a paper saying he would not accept any money from Addie.
I have seen this fear of their parent's being taken advantage of in other children of elders I have known. it is realistic: there are all sorts of "Senior scams". It can also be delfish if the child is counting on the parent's money, or afraid that they might have to support their patent.
There's the fear in Gene. And this last part made perfect sense and makes Gene look even worse than he did to me. So he considers it (he's the last surviving child) HIS money. Louis might be, in Gene's eyes, more crafty than we thought. If Gene is counting on her money (what little she appears to have) then naturally he'd resent any interloper. So signing a quit claim or something (I don't know the legal terms) to her money or property might change that, you're right. So really she's taking a risk even talking to him on the phone.
What a hopeless mess this halcyon tale has become. And a sad one. One feels Addie has a right to some happiness. (Where IS Halcyon, I think she said she was traveling, I'd love to hear her thoughts on this one)...
It started out so hopefully! Are YOU, the reader, disappointed? Surprised?
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And finally, here Leah has put her finger right on it, the thing I have been struggling with since the beginning:
this is Addie's story.
Who is telling us this story? Is this Addie's story or Addie's voice? Who is the narrator? I think that's very important. If SHE is, then is this "dreamlike" way of expressing some things that several of you have noticed, real? Is it possible that in her narration to us (if it IS her) she may be in her new found joy, exaggerating the pristine perfectness of it?
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I don't think that Gene is a sympathetic character. It's terrible that he threatens Addie with no contact at all with her grandson and further, tells the grandson about it (when Addie calls the boy during the day he says he'll get in trouble if he talks to her).
I do think that this is a kind of control that Gene's exercising. Maybe his need to control started when his sister died while he was playfully chasing her. Maybe he learned it from his father whose main attention to him was to correct him. I don't think Gene's controlling ways are productive; probably the opposite. They don't solve anything. It seems like it's just something he feels compelled to do. His life is out of control now. His wife left him; his business is failing. Now his mother seems to be spontaneously taking up with a man and causing her neighbors to talk. It seems flighty to Gene and, perhaps, makes her seem less accessible to him. And he seems to wonder why would Louis form a relationship with Addie if not for her money? He has to stop it. I'm not sure it's to keep the money for himself. That might be a fear in the background but I think it's more of a compulsion to control his mother's (to him) unseemly behavior. Of course, it's not his business and he can't see her point of view at all. I agree with JoanK that he's immature and self-centered.
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I agree that the story is mostly Addie's, mainly because she initiates the relationship with Louis in the beginning and she has to make choices in relation to Gene's threats at the end. I think that the narration is third person. For example, "The next day Louis went to the barber on Main Street and had his hair cut short and neat, a kind of buzz cut, and asked the barber if he still shaved people and the barber said he did, so he got a shave too." This is no one in particular talking. A third person.
But for a lot of the book, it seems to me as if there is no narrator. We're just hearing from Addie and Louis and the others in their own words (with no quotation marks). It's as if we're right there with the characters and there is no intermediary between us, narrating the events.
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OH what good points, Marcie!
That does explain the controlling urge: Maybe he learned it from his father whose main attention to him was to correct him.
and
It seems like it's just something he feels compelled to do. His life is out of control now. His wife left him; his business is failing.
Well that makes perfect sense. If you can't control your own stuff at least you can make a stab at somebody elses? He says he doesn't want Jamie to be hurt. I guess like he was? And so does he hope to control his mother so she won't prefer Louis? Or turn away from the boy for Louis? He's not thinking as clearly as he might, perhaps.
It's hard to quote from some of your posts because the entire thing is valuable so one ends up quoting the entire thing again hahaha
And on the point of view narration: This is no one in particular talking. A third person.
But for a lot of the book, it seems to me as if there is no narrator. We're just hearing from Addie and Louis and the others in their own words (with no quotation marks). It's as if we're right there with the characters and there is no intermediary between us, narrating the events.
What a great point. How the mechanics of the prose makes the reader feel included, as Leah said about the quotation marks: she felt welcome.
That is so interesting, I'm trying to think of another book that does that. The "in medias res" thing, starting right in the action of the piece without introduction, is supposed to do that, too. I haven't heard of this technique before, maybe it's his own invention? Super points!
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Today in addition to the 1001 talking points raised by our group which are still open, I'm interested in a couple more I'm puzzling over, one is the dog.
Why the plastic tube on the foot of the dog? Joan K mentioned that it was the only imperfect thing about the perfect dog. There does seem to be a lot of perfection going on. I won't go into two strangers in bed together at their age, the inevitable ...er...lack of perfection which is possible there...not talking about sex but other accoutrements of old age...all swept away...but here's a dog with a plastic protective tube on its foot? I can't picture it or what it might be for. Anybody figure that out? Have you ever seen a plastic tube on the foot of a dog which is removable?
I also thought the repetition of thoughts in this vein: Who would have thought at this time in our lives that we’d still have something like this. That it turns out we’re not finished with changes and excitements. And not all dried up in body and spirit” was an important theme. It was repeated several times in different ways.
She is 70. How old is he? Do we know? This I'm not dead yet, kind of like the Monty Python "bring out your dead" sequence in The Holy Grail, that feeling, who of us has not felt it? You feel (other than the inevitable accoutrements of aging) mentally about 30? Not sure WHO that wrinkled person is in the mirror.
You've still got "it," right? Whatever it is? Of course going to the dentist where they call you "hon" or "dear," and pat your shoulder is somewhat confusing, (they must need glasses, right?) I remember when Ella violently rejected being called "dear."
And you get on a subway and half the car gets up for you to sit down? And you look around for the old person? Or you're in a museum elevator with a bunch of Japanese tourists and there's such a long segue of "after you, Alphonse," as to who should go first off, with lots of bowing, the elevator doors close, making everybody laugh?
Or maybe you're flying back from Europe in a shuttle to your local regional airport, and the walkway comes up and there are three people standing there with three wheelchairs and the steward doesn't know who they are for, (because the people who boarded with them are about as handicapped as a marathon runner, they took off down the aisle after being afforded early boarding) so he turns to YOU in the front seat and says is the wheelchair for YOU?
MOI? Who ran on to the plane like Usain Bolt? (or my version of same which may in fact not quite approximate him).
Still got "it," tho, right? I've heard that one day "it's" not there. Addie is saying and Louis says somewhere too, and they say it more than once in other ways, that they've both still got it. They (and we) are not finished with changes (good ones) and excitements. We're not dried up in body and spirit.
I'm still trying to think of the overarching theme here. There are many. This is not only one of them, to me, but perhaps one of the most important.
I'm not dead yet! Is there a theme more important than this one that YOU see? If so, what is it?
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I feel as if I have met Louis before. As I read him, he is shy and probably an introvert. He is disappointed with his life: he betrayed his wife; he settled for a career as a small town high school teacher; he sees himself as a failure. He is very cautious and openly admits he is not a risk-taker. As I have said before, there are no secrets in a small town. Your mistakes keep coming back to haunt you as Louis' betrayal of his wife does several times in the text. I worked with teachers who always bought their beer out of town, rarely socialized with other teachers, and said very little about themselves to the students. They really don't want to call attention to themselves. I picture Louis like this. He sneaks to Addie's house through the back yard so no one will see him. He can't believe it when Addie says she does not care about what other people think. He does care. Addie knows that sneak or hide, people will find out and they will gossip. That is inevitable.
I like Louis because passive or not, he is good to Addie and works hard to please her. And, in spite of his admits that he doesn't really know much about kids, he is wonderful to or for Jamie. By the way, he does stand up to his daughter, Holly. I wonder if he will look back on losing (almost) Addie as another failure in his life.
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By my calculations, Gene is around 44! And still asks his mother to rescue him if he has to shut down his business. Jamie is 6yrs old which makes Gene 38 when he was born. Why hasn't he been saving money from his profits all these years. Addie promises to help him as it seems she always has. How many times has he failed before? He proberly is afraid that Addie won't be helping him any more now that Louis is in her life. Louis thinks Gene isn't really a salesman and maybe should try another way to make a living. I remember him suggesting this to Addie.
Remember when Addie tells about taking Gene to Denver for the entertainment of seeing plays and the visiting of museums, the culture of a big town just handed to him. But when he seemed to lose interest, she started going alone. And bought new clothing just to wear in Denver, never in Holt because she didn't want her friends to think that she was getting uppity. Evidently, Carl left her pretty well off. And Gene knew it as he used his problems to get her pity. This little family needed professional help when Connie was killed and no one thought to suggest it? Must have happened back in the days when it wasn't thought a good idea to get some kind of therapy after such a horrific thing had happened to your family.
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I see a parallel fear of abandonment in both Gene and his son.
Gene was not quite six years old at the time of his sister's death which he may have come to internalize as his fault; it seems entirely feasible that his father's subsequent criticisms and "corrections" of him might register with a young child as a withdrawal of his father's love and as a major abandonment, with the double whammy of possibly being perceived as responsible (read: guilty) of his sister' death. And those things leave scars that cannot always be seen.
His son has arrived at that same age (5 or 6) which may be triggering an "anniversary" reaction in Gene that is reawakening emotions similar to those he experienced at that age. The paradox is that Gene's son is feeling abandoned by both his parents at that same age and shows a lot fearfulness.
Maybe this will clarify what I am trying to get across.
(Story: When I was 14, my Dad said something to me that came right out of his 14 year old experience, and created a similar experience for me. Being a slow learner - and an even slower to forgive- I wrangled with it for 45 years before coming to terms with the effects it had on my sense of self not to mention the sense of betrayal and abandonment - additionally it limited my trust of other people. All in all, the effects reached far, wide, and deep in a life from a single incident. I am pretty sure this is more common than we often realize.)
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I'm following all your posts with the greatest interest. I find myself agreeing with everything that's said, except for the perception of a 'dreamlike' mood to the story. I'm struck by the shuddering reality of it all.
This is Addie's story. That, I believe is the ultimate reminder. But it's also a love story and so we must include Louis. A geriatric Romeo and Juliet. Gathering rosebuds in old age. Written sooner I believe the story could have made it into The Oxford Book of Aging.
What we get is the complicated lives of Louis Waters and Addie Moore. Gene is a decent guy - so are they all- but he's part of the baggage that Addie brings along into her new relationship with Louis, who would seem to have settled into a comfortable old age. But he brings his own baggage.
The choices that have to be made. Two is company. Three is a crowd. Having to choose between lover and six-year-old grandson, it's the lover who gets thrown out of her bed. I can't get over these two skinny-dipping seniors.
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LEAH: how kind of you to see gene as wounded, rather than simply awful. In the end, it doesn't matter to Addie whether we blame Gene or not: she's tried to change him and failed, he's not going to change now, and she has to decide what is the best way to cope with him as he is.
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Karen said, I feel as if I have met Louis before. As I read him, he is shy and probably an introvert. He is disappointed with his life: he betrayed his wife; he settled for a career as a small town high school teacher; he sees himself as a failure....I wonder if he will look back on losing (almost) Addie as another failure in his life.
I am glad to be looking at Louis, and I think that's him in a nutshell. How do the rest of you feel about him? Karen feels she has met Louis before. I don't. This book is making ME challenge myself in a lot of ways I did not expect. Shall I be brave like Addie, myself, and say I really can't relate to any of the characters, except perhaps Addie's love for her grandchild?
I am just not in Addie's shoes and since I'm older than she is, what she's going thru I'm not going to experience at 70...people can't say oh just you wait..... Of course Haruf was 71?
I am questioning whether my own perceptions have influenced how I even see people. In life and in literature. I don't know a Louis, why not? I really don't like him, either. And I don't know why? How strange this is.
he is shy and probably an introvert. He is disappointed with his life: he betrayed his wife; he settled for a career as a small town high school teacher; he sees himself as a failure..
I am an introvert, too; nothing to dislike there. I think it's this part: "he settled for a career as a small town high school teacher; he sees himself as a failure."
I think it's THAT part of his personality, so well examined here that makes me dislike him. He settled, wanted to be a poet, so he "settled as a small town high school teacher," a position which he could have turned into a Mr. Chips. Seize the day. Bloom where you are planted. The Emperor's Club. Made a glorious difference in the world. But no. He sees himself as a failure. Even in his affair, another failure in his marriage coming from his OWN actions, his PRIME worry is that he "failed his spirit or something. So is life nothing more than perception? Keep on the sunny side? Think what he could have done with his life if he had just perceived it differently.
But he didn't and here he is, our Knight of the Soul.
Nope. I don't like him, I haven't met him, and if I had I would have kept on walking. Louis has suddenly taken on a set of new dimensions. How do the rest of you see him? Redemption in his Third Age at last? Never too late?
It's a rare thing that I read a work of fiction and begin to question oneself. And it's a great discussion that makes that happen. Going to have to work on this a bit.
:}
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Ann, Why hasn't he been saving money from his profits all these years. Addie promises to help him as it seems she always has. How many times has he failed before? He proberly is afraid that Addie won't be helping him any more now that Louis is in her life. Louis thinks Gene isn't really a salesman and maybe should try another way to make a living
Yes I was struck by Gene's being a salesman, of all things. He must be a lot different around others than he is us, of course one sees that, too, in life. Louis is probably right, too. I'm thinking you are right when you surmise that Carl may have left Addie well off. It need not be a lot.
Gene seems to be paralleling Louis's life: he's not done well, his marriage is in shambles, he whines (sorry I know some of you hate that word) to his mother about it. Expecting what? He asks her what am I to do?
Being well enough off, Addie has reached out for what she needs in life. I don't see that either Addie nor Louis has done much thinking beyond the box and their own needs, quite frankly. Self centered. Is "selfish" always a pejorative thing?
They appear in good health. 70 is the new 30, right? We're all supposed to be doing second careers and traveling and running marathons? They are unencumbered by financial stresses or health issues. So ....why the narrow parameters? Write a book, Louis. Write poems at last, what's stopping you? Get OUT, Addie, and see the world.
DO something. I guess she thinks she has. Has she? Her goal is closeness and that will make her happy. Or what IS her goal?
I am not quite in tune with these two, I am sure it shows. :)
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I thought Leah, again, has put her finger on it and is totally right:
His son has arrived at that same age (5 or 6) which may be triggering an "anniversary" reaction in Gene that is reawakening emotions similar to those he experienced at that age. The paradox is that Gene's son is feeling abandoned by both his parents at that same age and shows a lot fearfulness.
Yes, we've all got battle scars, it was brave of you to articulate a personal one, and they may be different, but we all have them. It's strange the times they come out, too. Different things resound with different people.
The unfortunate thing is that one then finds oneself, despite one's best intentions and resolutions, as a parent beginning to react or think anyway, nobody knows anybody's thoughts, in the same way as what was done to us, because it's what you know, or thinking the same way in crisis: it's what you know. Unless one makes a serious commitment to change that pattern and keep to it, history may (as it is in this story) repeat itself emotionally or physically. I think that takes a lot more bravery than talking in the night in a small town.
And this family has had real trauma in the death of Gene's sister. And I agree with Ann, counseling might have been helpful but I doubt any was done at that time.
But we all know there are a million small traumas to the spirit which over time might also do the same thing to a person. The baggage transmitted...just think of Oliver Cromwell. Think of the movie Wolf Hall. It's suggested there that Cromwell's brutal upbringing contributed to his own brutality of spirit (Mark Rylance who played him, said his heart was stone). How can somebody get out of that? Why was Addie's trying to make up to Gene his lack of a closeness with his father after his sister's death not help? Carl's lack as a father trying to reassure him, he was 5 for Pete's sake, Carl must have been another repressed person not to reassure that 5 year old child...
Perhaps both Addie and Louis now see their relationship (I thought the descriptions of their picnics were dreamlike, Jonathan, almost too perfect in their descriptions as they reflect this new found happiness at last ) as a chance, a final chance to get it right.
And those things leave scars that cannot always be seen.
And I think, life not being perfect, that everybody is dragging them. Do you all think that Addie and Louis HAVE finally found happiness or is this last twist in the story just
an old pattern reemerging?
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Jonathan, What we get is the complicated lives of Louis Waters and Addie Moore. Gene is a decent guy - so are they all- but he's part of the baggage that Addie brings along into her new relationship with Louis, who would seem to have settled into a comfortable old age. But he brings his own baggage.
What to you are Gene's "decent" qualities. I agree about the baggage they all have.
. I'm struck by the shuddering reality of it all.
That's an interesting comment! To me it's not real at all....I don't know why. I don't know what's "unreal" about it, but I don't think that having shown no ...what's the word...spunk before this in Louis's life (except for the escape in an extra marital affair which is not spunk, it's...what IS it?) or in Addie's....did Addie never get out of the house at all, I can't recall...that they can now find final happiness in this friendship. And they seemed to, in those lyrical picnics and even had the little child with them, but we knew that could not last, didn't we? It's not their child to raise.
So what's the message here? You can't find happiness, even in your old age, because of the results of the baggage you think you've thrown off? That's depressing. What COULD Addie have done? (It does seem to be all up to her, I've seen her in control since the beginning. Shame she couldn't exert that influence on Gene). ...She's given IN to Gene. And she has no guarantee he'll stay in town, that he'll stay married, that he'll not change his mind about the next thing she does he doesn't like. Maybe that's enough variables for her to deal with.
But they are finally trying, after all these years. Don't they deserve a chance, too?
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I read this book several months ago and drew much delight from it. Actually I read it in a day. My friend Bubble recommended it after reading a review in the Times. It was a bittersweet story and one to which I could not relate because Bubble and I have recently become engaged, and the response from our respective families was overwhelmingly positive.
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Joan K says, it doesn't matter to Addie whether we blame Gene or not: she's tried to change him and failed, he's not going to change now, and she has to decide what is the best way to cope with him as he is.
What's that saying change what you can and...have the wisdom to know when you can't? But Addie has instigated the nightly phone calls. So here do we see her as a survivor? Coping bravely?
How do we see Addie at the end?
What a book to be so small!!
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Radiioman!! Welcome! We were posting together.
MANY congratulations on your engagement!
I read this book several months ago and drew much delight from it. Actually I read it in a day. My friend Bubble recommended it after reading a review in the Times. It was a bittersweet story and one to which I could not relate because Bubble and I have recently become engaged, and the response from our respective families was overwhelmingly positive.
So you're actually living it, and you can't relate, either. Had your families had the same reaction as Gene, what would you have done? What do you think of Louis?
MANY congratulations!
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I find these characters very realistic and I do see them all around me: a lonely old woman, a passive, self-defeated man, a spoiled adult-child, a hurting child. We are jumping into the middle of each of their stories. There is much we don't know about what came before or what happens for each of them in the future. Even this is like real life: what we see when we encounter anyone is all we know.
I do relate to these characters because I have them in my family. I have worked with them. They go to my church, live in my building, walk on streets near my house, and shop in the same grocery store as I do. I confess that I do like Addie. I am lonely a lot of the time. Like Addie, I make plans to deal with that loneliness during the day, but in the dark, at night, I feel it the most. She is doing something to try to beat this thing that is bringing her down. However, as much as I can see why they are the way they are, I don't want to be around any of them. I personally do not want to cope with Louis' low self-esteem, Gene's anger, or Jamie's pain in my own life now. But they surround me. They are not going to "buck up," "make lemonade," or "forget it."
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My view on Gene: He is an insecure character and so has the need to control others - the easiest one being his mother. This especially because he needs the security of her money but also because he is afraid of losing her. He knows that she cares for him but he is jealous of her good relationship with Louis and what that could mean in the future. So he tries to act virtuous when he sees his mother "situation" as a bad example for Jamie. Jamie might come to love Louis more than his dad and become critical of his own parents.
Aren't the women always the stronger in life and they have to make those hard decisions?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online
Start date: July 18 Discussion Leader: Ella Gibbons
Our Souls at Night
by Kent Haruf
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/oursouls/soulscvr.jpg) | Only 149 pages but not one of them wasted. Haruf writes simply, beautifully, exploring human relationships; all the myriad emotions of life. An original writer, I think it a wonderful book, best book I've read in a long time, and I want to discuss it with others, share and explore our own emotions. Addie makes a proposal!
Join us, you'll be shocked at the first page, but do keep reading.
Read the entire book and then we will begin our discussion on July 18th. |
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Welcome Radioman and SoPbubble. Congratulations on your engagement. What joyful news!
Regarding "dreamlike" or "realistic," I think it's a story that has both qualities. My overall impression after reading the book was one of sympathy for Addie and Louis. Overall I think they are portrayed as decent people who have particular flaws as we all have. Their spouses and children had/have their own issues too. My initial reaction to the book was that Addie and Louis were coping with their lives, sometimes having "failures of character" (as Louis says at the end of Chapter 11) and trying to reach for something more, together. I think that the good in them and between them outweighs the negatives.
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Thanks, Marcie, for taking us back to Chapter 11, where Louis talks about 'failure of character'. Addie and Louis have been talking about Connie's tragic death while playing with her brother Gene, Addies's grandchildren. What I had missed on an earlier reading, was Addies's comment that Diane, Louis's wife 'came over a number of times to check on me. That was kind of her. I appreciated it. I was grateful to her.'
Now let's turn to Chapter 29, and the tragedy of Diane's death. Louis's account of it is heart rending. Ultimate reality. I've been there. What moved me really was his admission:
'She never really got what she wanted from me. She had a kind of idea, a notion of how life should be, how marriage should be, but that was never how it was with us. I failed her in that way. She should've had somebody else.'
Isn't life for many an endless search for the right one? How lucky I was to have found her.
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DON, SOAPIE: WELCOME!
MKAREN: "a lonely old woman, a passive, self-defeated man, a spoiled adult-child, a hurting child....I do relate to these characters because I have them in my family. I have worked with them. They go to my church, live in my building, walk on streets near my house, and shop in the same grocery store as I do."
Yes. The characters are one sided and idealized, but we recognize them as showing one aspect of people we know. That's why, for all of us, it's brought up questions about parts of our own lives, our relationships with our neighbors, children, spouses and significant others.
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I'm just thinking how closed in and mean every one around Addie and Louis is. No one is simply glad for them and their happiness. The people who know them either ignore the situation or are mean about it.
Is that the authors picture of life in this small ttown. If so, I'm glad I don't live there.
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So many responses and so many points of view! As I mentioned, our engagement was received with overwhelming acceptance, so what would I have felt had the response been otherwise? I actually expected some negative responses,so when Gene reacted
the way he did I was not surprised. Gene is selfish and cruel; to use emotional blackmail on his mother to end her search for happiness is despicable.
Addie demonstrated her strength by opting for family over personal happiness which bears out Bubble's comment.
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OH golly what good points!
Karen: Even this is like real life: what we see when we encounter anyone is all we know.
That's the problem here, isn't it? We know too much, perhaps to like them. Of course we don't have to "like" any of them, they are existing in their own world.
However, as much as I can see why they are the way they are, I don't want to be around any of them.
Me, either.
I loved your thought there about they are not going to buck up, make lemonade, etc. hahahaa They aren't, are they? No matter how many times we shout at the book. hahaha
I have to question why I want them to.
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Soap Bubble! What a delight to see you here!! Welcome! It was a joy to see you here this morning.
I thought this was brilliant and finally explains Gene to me:
My view on Gene: He is an insecure character and so has the need to control others - the easiest one being his mother. This especially because he needs the security of her money but also because he is afraid of losing her.
There's Leah's fear again and Marcie's idea as well. Fear. I'm wondering if any character here is without fear. How about Louis? What is Louis afraid of?
Aren't the women always the stronger in life and they have to make those hard decisions?
I'd say yes normally. I've seen Addie is in control the entire story, she's calling the shots, but strong?
I'm not sure. Do you all see Addie as strong?
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Marcie says: My initial reaction to the book was that Addie and Louis were coping with their lives, sometimes having "failures of character" (as Louis says at the end of Chapter 11) and trying to reach for something more, together. I think that the good in them and between them outweighs the negatives.
Joan K said:
Yes. The characters are one sided and idealized, but we recognize them as showing one aspect of people we know. That's why, for all of us, it's brought up questions about parts of our own lives, our relationships with our neighbors, children, spouses and significant others..
I keep thinking of Agatha Christie's characters. She'd do a couple of words sand we felt we knew the character. When you go back and read her again, there's almost nothign there. We might know the character or we might be fleshing out the character by our own experiences. But we're relating to them based on our own lives, and our own experiences, each of us, in different ways, I think. Louis particularly and Gene seem to be litmus tests.
I love all the different reactions here, a perfect book to discuss! Ella really hit it this time!
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Jonathan and Radioman, our two men of the hour here!
Radioman says: As I mentioned, our engagement was received with overwhelming acceptance, so what would I have felt had the response been otherwise?
I got the impression that Louis would not have cared and would have gone forward regardless. But Addie's loss would have been greater than Louis's. I agree with you that Gene is selfish and cruel; to use emotional blackmail on his mother to end her search for happiness is despicable.
Seen from your perspective Addie does look strong as she demonstrated her strength by opting for family over personal happiness which bears out Bubble's comment. But I contend that the tragedy here is the way she went about her relationship with Louis in the first place. THAT to me was, and remains, odd.
Jonathan, you seem to have tempered your thoughts now that you've finished the book. I had forgotten this part, too:
'She never really got what she wanted from me. She had a kind of idea, a notion of how life should be, how marriage should be, but that was never how it was with us. I failed her in that way. She should've had somebody else.'
Again, I have problems with Louis here. Poor thing, he can't win. He bashes himself up and down and now this reader is unable to support him either. So Louis's marriage was never Diane's idealistic...he, the Knight, was supposed to supply "how life should be, how marriage should be and it's all his failure."
I have problems with that.
I wonder what Diane would say to his thoughts now if she could hear them. Is there no lemonade maker in this entire piece?
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Joan K says:
I'm just thinking how closed in and mean every one around Addie and Louis is. No one is simply glad for them and their happiness. The people who know them either ignore the situation or are mean about it.
Is that the authors picture of life in this small town. If so, I'm glad I don't live there.
When I first read this I thought how is it any of their business? Why should they have an opinion at all? If they like Addie or Louis they should be glad, right? Happy for them?
And then I thought but THEY are here in the book representing "normal," right? They represent real society and real reactions?
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here, and I hope I can be forgiven for it but before Addie gets her halo on too firmly, I think the way she went (notice I'm saying she) about this relationship is what has caused her problems with the neighbors and with Gene in the first place, and ultimately caused her losing what she wanted. SHE above all other people, us included, knows Gene. She knows what he is and who he is.
Nobody in the world would have been unhappy for them (except jealous Gene, I now see him differently) had they had what ....well how to say this....normally signals a normal relationship? What is "normal?" A small town. Rigid codes of conduct?
My house is full of noise. People coming and going. Lots of noise. I know I'm lucky. Last night I sat in a lull and looked at those glass windows at the dark and thought what if it weren't? I agree the night is a different time. There are books I can't read at night, one's imagination takes hold. But starting out a new relationship with a man I don't even KNOW? Skipping the steps as Marcie said. Actually lying in a bed, a bed is an intimate thing, with a perfect stranger talking over the day? Are you kidding? You can tell this was written only a few years ago, in our new age of dental hygiene, because he brings his toothbrush. No teeth in a glass jar here. And all the other things which go with it. Starting out in the bed, when we haven't talked before ever? And yes, he IS a stranger, she knows very little about him.
I mean, come on. I don't know if the neighbors are shocked or not, they seem to find it amusing. Is that mean? It's outre behavior and not their norm. Addie is flaunting the norm with this man sneaking in at night, she doesn't want sneaking she wants it her way. Come to the front door, I'm not sneaking, I don't care what they think, but come to the front door at night and leave in the morning.
What's wrong with sharing ideas over dinner on the porch on long walks, phone calls, writing letters, and going home at night? What's wrong with going to the movies or out to dinner? Really, let's be realistic, what ARE the neighbors supposed to think? They are being "normal." If Addie decided to run out naked in the street or suddenly took to wearing 3 dresses at once, what would they say?
What should they say? How is it their business? Unless they are concerned for her mental welfare and that would depend on how much they care about her and her welfare? When I am an old woman I shall wear purple. Go for it. Do what you please, (I read the other day that sometimes as we see in the older person a sudden lack of inhibitions actually signals beginning dementia.) I've thought of that ever since when I do something I normally would not hahaha. And it is true you do feel freer as you age. Which I think is good.
I wish I could articulate WHY I think Addie is not being "strong" here at all with the bed time beginning stuff, or her final decision, and that she caused her own problems with a lack of thought. We all do that.
And I include Gene in that. She of all people knows Gene. She knows him better than we do. Should she have cared, at least tried to take steps to include him, taken it slowly, done this differently? Would it have made any difference?
She says Jamie is the only person (note Louis included) that loves her. So she chooses to not see Louis again.
I am seeing a word I know nobody wants me to use. It starts with a U. I think perhaps more than one character here has this trait, for whatever reason. I don't see it as strength. I see it as selfishness, which is fine, she can be selfish. But as a character in a book, she backs away from her new found solution to life because, and she says this outright: Jamie is the only person who loves her. That, to me, does not signal strength.
Would you say this is a tragic ending? I bet a lot of people read this and immediately project the countless times they personally have sacrificed something they wanted for the good of others. So they see her as selfless and brave.
I don't see that happening here. I really don't. I do think I am in a discussion with a lot of very fine, uplifting positive thinking people, and I may be the only one seeing the negative here. :)
Don't kill the messenger! :) I'm only playing Devil's Advocate, remember.
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" I don't know if the neighbors are shocked or not, they seem to find it amusing. Is that mean? It's outre behavior and not their norm. Addie is flaunting the norm with this man sneaking in at night, she doesn't want sneaking she wants it her way. Come to the front door, I'm not sneaking, I don't care what they think, but come to the front door at night and leave in the morning. "
Addie is lonely and does not want to see life seeping away without feeling companionship again. She is not usually forward or flaunting but time is running and how many years does she still have? so she jump into the water so to speak and it is all or nothing for her.
Why did she not do it gradually for Gene? Because she knows him and is sure he would stop her from the start. Maybe shocking him will silence him ? all his life people had excuses for him, so maybe this would be different?
In the end the dare was too much, she is not sure Louis is strong enough to give what she needs. She hide the certitude that Jamie needs her protection by saying he is the only one who loves her. To be there for J. would be her primary concern over her own selfish happiness.
People will talk anyway, even after all is ended... that is the way people are, nosy and gossiping! Isn't that what make magazines sell?
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so P bubble: "Addie is lonely and does not want to see life seeping away without feeling companionship again. She is not usually forward or flaunting but time is running and how many years does she still have?"
This idea highlighted a notion that perhaps people can feel the pressure of the so-called 'biological clock' at a variety of ages - not just during the childbearing window.
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OK, Ginny, I give: "I am seeing a word I know nobody wants me to use. It starts with a U."
Am I the only one who hasn't figured out the "U" word. 🤔
Do tell!
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Will you come to bed with me? That would seem to be a rash beginning, Ginny. But of course! It's the ticking clock. For whom does it tick louder than for the aging.
Addie is in a hurry. She yearns for a soulmate. She wants to get intimate. Pysically and emotionally. She knows Louis well enough, as a neighbour and as the husband of her friend Dianne. He's a good man. 'Good, but not great' in his own words. As a teacher. And by the way, some of world's smartest students and greatest achievers come out of those small town, country high schools.
Gene? Perhaps we're too hard on him. I'm inclined to see him as Addie's own conscience.
Yes, Ginny. What is the "U" word? What a book. More twists with every reading, and just amazing what you all see in it.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who has no idea what the "U" word is. maybe I should ask my grandchildren -- if it's naughty, they're sure to know it.
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Ginny, you are very right that you are so blessed to have a "full house" most of the time. There was a time when I did; I used to wish that I would have some quiet time to be by myself. "Be careful what you ask for because you might get it" And I got it. Days on end when I only talk to store clerks, servicemen, or other dog owners I meet on my walk. I have filled my life with teaching myself calculus, learning Latin, reading, everything but cleaning. I get very tired of eating, watching movies, and making decisions all by myself. At times I am very lonesome.
At the risk of being considered a "wanton woman" but when I read the first chapter of this book I thought,"What a great idea!" Here is a woman who is taking charge of her life. It isn't as if Louis is a total stranger. They have lived as neighbors for decades. His wife used to visit Addie, so she knows who he is and, living in this small town, probably knows a lot about him. From the way she explained to Louis what she was asking him to do, I believe that this is not a spur of the moment decision and had considered the town's reaction when they inevitably find out. So, rather facing lonely nights for the rest of her life, she acts.
So I wasn't shocked by what Addie did. I find the actions of her son intolerable. I almost threw the book when he, for whatever reasons, gave his mother the ultimatum. I wanted her to defy him and continue this relationship which I think was good for both of them.
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OK here comes the U word and as I said, you are all not going to like it. But first I want to explain it and address what you all are talking about.
We're winding down here and I want to be sure there is no stone unturned. As Ella said initially (and she is out of the hostpital and getting well, hopefully she can rest and relax and not worry about a thing, you've done a fantastic job)..but she said when we run out of things to say we can stop.
This is kind of a new experiment, Ell's idea, for our Books and Lit and I have to say I've loved it. I've got something new for our last day, whenever it is, which is also different, lots of surprises in this one.
But for now let's talk about first two/ three really issues the publisher Knopf (hopefully that's spelled correctly) put in THEIR Reader's Guide for this book.
1. Did Louis's revelation that he wanted to be a poet change anything between him and Addie? Did she look at him differently (this is a paraphrase) . Did you?
2. On page 145, Addie mentions the Denver Center for the Performing Arts production of Benediction, based on the author’s own novel. Addie and Louis discuss the fact that it’s set in Holt, the fictional town in which they live. Why do you think Haruf slipped this into the story?
Wow, I missed that entirely! What do you think of that plug? Or is it not one?
3. In his final interview, conducted a few days before his death from interstitial lung disease, Haruf discussed Our Souls at Night: “The idea for the book has been floating around in my mind for quite a while. Now that I know I have, you know—a limited time—it was important to me to try to make good use of that time. So I went out there every day. Typically, I have always had a story pretty well plotted out before I start writing. This time I knew generally where the story was going, but I didn’t know very many of the details. So as it happened, I went out every day trusting myself to be able to add to the story each day. So I essentially wrote a new short chapter of the book every day. I’ve never had that experience before. I don’t want to get too fancy about it, but it was like something else was working to help me get this done. Call it a muse or spiritual guidance, I don’t know. All I know is that the trust I had in being able to write every day was helpful.” How does reading this affect your understanding of the book?
I thought these were worthy of their own post, so am putting it in here. I realize this discussion has a lot of green ink and I apologize for that, but at least you know your thoughts are read and addressed, I hope. They deserve to be, they are good.
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I was heading out of town this morning after my post here when I hit discussions one last time and saw SoapBubble's post. I did not have time to address it then and I'm glad I didn't because I've been able to think about it all day. I think it's very interesting and lends itself to my theory of the U word. Brace yourselves.
I'm going to do responses to everybody in this one post, too.
The first thing I thought when I looked at it was, this woman (Soapbubble) is smarter than I am because I did not see that in this, at all. And then I realized why I had not seen it. It wasn't said, it's still brilliant but it wasn't articulated in the text. It's a conclusion of the reader. Yet I agree STRONGLY with one of the two assertions, and it hits the very nerve that I could not articulate so I am very grateful to see it.
First off, I'm inclined to think, SoapBubble, you are right also about Gene. It's possible that nothing she could do, no approach would have worked. And as somebody said earlier (who was that, it was good!) none of these people are going to make lemonade, they are what they are. So she can't talk frankly to her son and she's stuck, hoist on her own petard.
Jonathan and Leah! Both of you? With Soapbubble? That's three powerful thinkers and from you the biological clock? I feel like Methuselah here! . The woman is only 70 years old!!! She's ONLY 70 years old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 70 is the new 40! WHAT biological clock? Even if the Grim Reaper has one hand in the door, that doesn't mean she needs to run naked thru the streets, what IF she lives to be 100? This does so remind me of what I used to say to my mother. Mother, I'd say in all my wisdom, you're ONLY 86!!
I still contend that she did not have to start a relationship with Louis in the bed. NO Grim Reaper knocking on the door caused that!!! Her decision to do that cost her that relationship. Did she know that at the outset? Does that make you think differently about her? She knows Gene. I mean if we can read XX and YY into it we can read ZZZ, too.
Karen, hahaha I've thrown books across the room before, the last one was the Liar's Club. Hated that almost as much as the one by the New Zealand author about child abuse. Threw both where they deserved: the trash.
But here, what or who are you really angry at in Gene's attitude? ADDIE did not have to do what her son said. I'll get to Jamie later on. I still contend that Gene is NOT going to stay in town (where DOES he live? He's put Addie in Assisted Living in
Grand Junction, is that where he lives?) and Addie has given up her own new life in vain. WHY can't she talk to him as one person to another? Something is really wrong with that picture. Give the dolt every cent you have, every single one, give him the house with the condition in writing that you have free access and visitation with Jamie, and move with Louis your new husband, to the BEACH! BE this free spirit you claim to be.
What Addie did didn't shock me at all. The U word again. I'm half afraid to say it now because everybody has Addie on a pedestal on the shelf as a healthy example of freedom in old age. Do you all think people really CHANGE as they get older? I don't. I don't at all.
Jonathan again, And by the way, some of world's smartest students and greatest achievers come out of those small town, country high schools.
Yes they do. There's no doubt about that. But it's highly unlikely in Louis's case because of his sorry attitude. Why can't Louis take some pride in it instead of calling himself a failure in a second rate high school in a podunk town or whatever he said back there? He put it, his profession, his life, his school and his town down. That does not, I don't care who says it, produce students who are outstanding. It's an excuse. HE obviously was meant for better things. Don't get me started on Louis, I know we all love him.
I am taking these characters at their word! I believe what they say. Every single one of them. This presents itself as an Our Town simplistic kind of thing where the townspeople, good at heart (or at least not ax murderers) tell us who they are. They are Everyman. We are constrained from saying anything about them except the execrable Gene because when we do we are being nasty or judgmental.
We can't argue with them as they are presented. We can't second guess them. I'm about to, tho. I'm about to. I think there are some things unsaid here which WE the reader should be picking up on.
Karen, by the way, you can always talk to us!! We're always here, and we have the benefit of being real people who meet in person and have over the years many times, so now you can talk/ type (on my IPad it's the same thing even if SIRI prints gibberish). We're all friends here and that's not small change. :)
Joan K, it's naughty. hahahaha
All right, so what IS it?
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Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we should dance.
~ Author Unknown
My Mom lived to the age of 96 (and a half!! ☺️). She used to say something similar: Since death is certain and life is uncertain, we should dance!]
I guess my point is: Life's clock keeps on ticking and we never know if we have the Duracell battery of one from the Dollar Store.
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Leah! We were posting together, what a hoot!! I love that!
OK the U word: I have taken these characters at their word, as I said. I have seen Addie in control since the beginning.
And then Soapbubble said:
Because she knows him and is sure he would stop her from the start.
Yes. There's the first of two missing pieces. She knew Gene would put the kibosh on this relationship that's why she called Louis to come over and hear it for himself. MAYBE that's why she went about it as she did, too: the bed.
And so Louis who doesn't need to be reminded that he has failed yet again and this time he really hopefully tried, is back in the dumps but hey they can still converse on the phone. And he nicely tells her she's changed his life. He really IS too perfect.
And then Soapbubble dropped the second shoe:
In the end the dare was too much, she is not sure Louis is strong enough to give what she needs
THERE it is. The real explanation for the end of the affair. I agree totally with this. It's ADDIE again. It's NOT Gene, folks, it's Addie. She used Gene to get her out of it. Do you know what the Urban Dictionary's definition of a person who does these things is?
..... uses a friend or acquaintance
solely for the purposes of gaining a type of advantage.
someone who toys with [ the emotions of another] just to receive what they desire from that person
(Unfortunately the "Urban Dictionary" has so many grammatical errors I have had to edit the definitions. hahahaa)
The U word is "user." In the old sense, not in the new sense of using drugs.
Addie is a user. How do I know? Where is her compassion for poor Louis in this? She KNOWS he feels a failure. She has SEEN him blossom, the dog, the projects with the child. But now she feels he's not enough for HER for whatever reason. So... he's out. Oh she still wants to chat on the phone. I can't articulate how...annoyed I am at HER. She's using him and that's not love. That's not even like. And he's putting up with it, the poor schmuck.
She breaks up with Louis with the explanation (to us?) and to him that Jamie is the only one in her family (I looked that up again) who loves her. Why should we doubt her here? I think here she's speaking from the heart. Nothing Louis has done has resonated, he's just...a plaything. He doesn't matter. He's not family. It's all about her like it has been since the start.
Back on page 92: they are talking in the bed.
"So talk to me, she said.
Is there anything specific?
Something more about yourself.
Aren't you tired of that?
Not yet, I'll tell you when I am."
Really? No doubt who the dominant one here is, is there?
It's continual, too, it's like a drum roll. Where is Louis's pride?
Page 131:
"But you might get tired of me, too, and want out.
If that happens, we can stop, she said. That's the understood agreement for us, isn't it. Even if we never actually said so."
The "understood agreement?" Wow. Even if we never actually said so? I knew when I saw this that Louis would soon be history, if the other hints weren't enough.
She hides the certitude that Jamie needs her protection by saying he is the only one who loves her.
I don't believe this. I think she says it because she believes it. The only one of her family who loves her. Louis says I can be your family. She says and then what if something happens to you? Who is she looking out for HERE?
It's all about her and always has been.
And he says you can go live with Gene. And she says No, I have to do this now.
And then she calls him. Page 174.
"I thought we weren't going to talk anymore.
I have to. I can't go on like this. It's worse than before we ever started.
What about Gene?
He doesn't have to know. We can talk on the phone at night.
Then this seems like sneaking. Like he said. Being secretive.
I don't care. I'm too lonely..."
First to last this story has been about Addie and her feelings, wants, and needs. I'm not saying she's some kind of Vampira. I'm not saying she's deliberately done this in a cold hearted way. I am saying she's using Louis and has been all along, whether she or we know it or not. She's been in control and is still in control. She's used Gene. This is her way. Tears or not, heck, she makes ME want to cry but not with sympathy. Now she's in Assisted Living, ergo there will not be any overnight visits again, but she can have almost the same thing if he'll only talk to her.
It's all about her.
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And here's another question, going back to one of the 3 new ones from Knopf:
The author Kent Haruf (pronounced like sheriff) wrote this literally on his deathbed.
Given that, what to YOU is the overarching message he wanted to impart?
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And here's another question, going back to one of the 3 new ones from Knopf:
The author Kent Haruf (pronounced like sheriff) wrote this literally on his deathbed.
Given that, what to YOU is the overarching message he wanted to impart?
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The title Our Souls in the Night leads me to what I think is the theme of this novel. Kent Haruf was dying as he wrote this novel. At one point in the text he says that it was not yet "deep dark." Both Addie and Louis are in the "evening" of their lives. They are both alone and lonely as the dark approaches. Intimacy (holding hands and talking in the dark) can relieve the loneliness that comes as the light fades. We leave Addie talking to Louis on the phone.
"She looked out the window. She could see her reflection in the glass. And the dark behind it."
And then we conclude the novel the same way we entered it--- exiting as the conversation and both lives go on, "Dear, is it cold out there tonight."
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I agree with Mkaren's take on what seems to be Addie's aggressive approach to establishing this new relationship. I regard Louis as rather weak, if not indecisive. Addie recognises these traits and realises that it is she who must take the initiative if she wants the relationship to blossom.
If Louis were made of sterner stuff I think he would have been more ardent in his efforts to protect their union, even if it meant a confrontation with Gene
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Louis would be reluctant to confront Gene, first because of his own limitations, but also because that would mean more problems/animosity from Gene toward his mother. Gene would project his anger on Addie more than on Louis although for sure he would have enjoyed crushing Louis too.
Louis's love for Andie would make him circumspect in any initiative he would take.
Yes 70 is just a number - but when you see peers around you disappearing, some even younger, it makes you more aware of the time fleeing.
Additionally, if Addie's relationship with her husband had not been the ideal one and she saw a chance for experiencing "real companionship", that would have been an irresistible temptation when being aware solitude in old age. At that age, gossips and "what will they say" is much less a priority in one's behavior.
Even when one does not fear the end, the thought is present, maybe not acknowledged conscientiously.
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Oh Karen, this is lovely and brings up a lot of the symbolism in the thing that I completely missed, like references to the "dark" and "night."
he title Our Souls in the Night leads me to what I think is the theme of this novel. Kent Haruf was dying as he wrote this novel. At one point in the text he says that it was not yet "deep dark." Both Addie and Louis are in the "evening" of their lives. They are both alone and lonely as the dark approaches. Intimacy (holding hands and talking in the dark) can relieve the loneliness that comes as the light fades. We leave Addie talking to Louis on the phone.
"She looked out the window. She could see her reflection in the glass. And the dark behind it."
And then we conclude the novel the same way we entered it--- exiting as the conversation and both lives go on, "Dear, is it cold out there tonight."
Radioman and SoapBubble, what super input. I am so glad you have both joined us. I really enjoyed Radioman's take on Louis, we haven't really looked at Louis closely, at all, as a person. If Louis were made of sterner stuff I think he would have been more ardent in his efforts to protect their union, even if it meant a confrontation with Gene
I had not thought of this and I now realize it's what I was waiting for. Addie wanted Louis to be there, you better come over she said, and I see that I was waiting to see what he would do. Maybe she was, too? Her Knight in shining armor? I thought he would, for a while.
But then as Soapbubble points out, he was constrained: Louis would be reluctant to confront Gene, first because of his own limitations, but also because that would mean more problems/animosity from Gene toward his mother. Gene would project his anger on Addie more than on Louis...
And that's another good point, lovely discussion here, I am so enjoying it. And you are also right on the 70's thing, and let's face it, the author definitely proved that point with his own life. So not everybody is blessed with a long life or the prospect of one.
I am not sure, even now, why Haruf mentioned his own book or production of a play on same in this novel in the town of Holt (quote a couple of posts earlier). I wonder what this might mean?
It really didn't mean anything to me because I have not read it and did not make the connection. Is it a commercial? Is it a joke? A fun plug? Is he saying as Jonathan did that a lot of outstanding things come from small towns? You don't have to go somewhere else to have...?
I have no idea. :)
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So I'm still struggling with the "message," or if you must, the "moral, " the point of this book.
I spent a lot of time this morning reading the negative reviews of this book, and there are many among the mostly positive ones. Most of those who threw the book across the room (believe it or not) :) were disappointed in the ending. They seemed to feel, in their great disappointment in how the book ended, a need to criticize the characters themselves and the writing. Among other things they said:
1. Addie's change from a brave new person into a wimp was disappointing and not realistic.
2. Gene's portrayal was not at all realistic in this day and age (I don't think the average age here of readers was 70 and up, by the time you're 70 you've seen or heard of a Gene).
3. There was more than one suggestion that the book gave out, and somebody else finished it.
The feelings people voiced about Addie, I now see, are the reasons I was determined to see the U word because in that supposition Addie is still strong, don't you see? I wanted Addie to end strong and in control. So in the U version she still is. Is that better than her being defeated, a complete "wimp" as one put it, (is that accurate?) a turn around which was not "believable or realistic?" Do all exciting new brave ventures HAVE to end this way?
"Do not go gently into that good night, rage, rage against the dying of the light."
(Paraphrased and too lazy to look it up, but it does fit what I wanted to see her do). People were quite disappointed that the "fairy tale for adults" as one called it, ended so disappointingly. Were YOU disappointed?
Let's think about what the heck the book is actually ABOUT? What message, what conclusion do you think the author wants us to take away?
IS it that people in their 70's CAN have a new beginning? If so why did the last quarter of the book let them down?
IS it that family is always first and it's inevitable?
Is this book positive? Is it negative? What do YOU think?
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I don't feel inclined to looking for a moral in what I read. As for themes, well, that seems to me to be a pretty personal experience. So, when it comes to assessing the characters' motives and such, I always seem to be facing myself.
Here is what I shared in a previous discussion.
It is inevitable that the roster of characters in a book or short story, memoir or biography all act as mirrors that offer opportunities to get a clearer view of all the 'parts' of myself.
I read the narrative, and one 'part' or another has a response. It could be a knee jerk reaction accompanied by any number of emotions, or a less obvious one like pity or empathy. I might be surprised by a flare-up of fear disguised as anger or judgment.
If my internal observer self is in play, I may be able to become more aware, more open, more able to perceive my own inner workings: like conflicts, assumptions, prejudices, defenses, sensitivities, among other tendencies.
I can do this all in private so when I go out into the 'real world' I can take what I've learned from the characters as I experienced them.
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I'm overwhelmed by the story and by the insights posted by all of you.
From the reviews: 'One called it a fairy tale for adults.' Anonther could see it as a cautionary tale. The title Our Souls At Night is very suggestive. I would have liked 'A Sad Affair'. In any case it's Kent Haruf's beautiful swan song. The ending is perfect, right down to Addie's broken hip and Louis's impotency. The beginning was marvellous in setting the mood: 'It was an evening in May just before full dark.' Two seventy-year-olds feeling springish as winter comes on.
All the characters are only too human, and the small town setting is perfect. Just look what Jane Austen did with village life. It's Louis's sad fate to be left behind, with his memories. It still is and will always be 'Ruth's house' and 'Addie's house'.
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I'm just home from the hospital and have read your posts - your wonderful opinions. What fun it is to share ideas, particularly about aging. Addie says she has to make adjustments in her life while she is still able. I've been there, I 've made adjustments, it's lonely at times. I understand Addie, she is only - what, 70 something? I'm almost 88 and still making adjustments, I understand. Loved this book and thank you all for participating!
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"
IS it that people in their 70's CAN have a new beginning? If so why did the last quarter of the book let them down?
IS it that family is always first and it's inevitable?
Is this book positive? Is it negative? What do YOU think?"
I want to answer that but I need some more reflection time to organize my thought. So... it will be for tomorrow, as it is already night here!
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"IS it that people in their 70's CAN have a new beginning?"
Indeed they can; I'm 82 and look what happened to me.
"IS it that family is always first and it's inevitable?"
I am inclined to say no. First of all I will make the assumption that couple were raised in the Christian tradition, and in accordance with the biblical admonitions they were enjoined to leave their fathers and mothers to become one flesh. And I'll make a poetic assumption that "fathers and mothers" could be extended to include all members of the family. It would therefore follow that husband and wife come first and all else is secondary.
Is this book positive? Is it negative?
I would say it is positive because it lays bare the harsh reality of the emotional cruelty of which man is capable. Sad endings do not necessarily make a book negative and I believe that is the case here.
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I can understand how those of you who see Addie as selfish and Louis as weak can read those traits in the story. There are a lot of specific details that Haruf uses to flesh out the characters. For me these are not the traits that I'm finding as overarching. Maybe the "dreamlike" quality in the story that some of us mentioned before is a symbolic level that brings the characters up a level to portray universal hopes and sorrow.
Karen's take on the story resonates with me.
The title Our Souls in the Night leads me to what I think is the theme of this novel. Kent Haruf was dying as he wrote this novel. At one point in the text he says that it was not yet "deep dark." Both Addie and Louis are in the "evening" of their lives. They are both alone and lonely as the dark approaches. Intimacy (holding hands and talking in the dark) can relieve the loneliness that comes as the light fades. We leave Addie talking to Louis on the phone.
"She looked out the window. She could see her reflection in the glass. And the dark behind it."
And then we conclude the novel the same way we entered it--- exiting as the conversation and both lives go on, "Dear, is it cold out there tonight."
I'm seeing a portrayal of the power of reaching out to another human being and making a connection. I think that the setting of the story is very much influenced by the fact that Haruf wrote the story as he was dying. He was under the pressure of his biological clock and his two main characters are also. They want to seize the opportunity for a close relationship, an intimate sharing of conversation, that they have missed in their earlier lives. They make the connection between each other and deepen it with Jamie.
The story also portrays the hurts and sorrows of connections lost or betrayed, the death of a child, people unable to look past their own hurt, an affair. At the end we see the price of Gene and Addie's inability to connect and Gene's inability to allow others to connect.
Addie is forced to choose her grandson or Louis. The loss of Louis in her life is another way of showing the power of connections. I think that Haruf might not have added the phone call to Louis on his own. I've read an interview with his wife that seems to say that she thought that scene would provide a more hopeful ending. See http://knopfdoubleday.com/2016/06/28/cathy-haruf-on-her-husbands-final-novel-our-souls-at-night-an-exclusive-qa/
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Just loving these fantastic posts and points of view, (loved that, Radioman), and just peeking in to say I'm on my way out of town this morning but will be back this afternoon, all the while thinking over all your wonderful perspectives (that article is eye opening, Marcie, thank you for that) and hearing what else you all have to say in conclusion. I have a strange new thing to spring on you, too.
Welcome back, ELLA!! We have missed you and are so glad you are out of hospital!
Back this afternoon.
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1. IS it that people in their 70's CAN have a new beginning? If so why did the last quarter of the book let them down?
I personally thought, after Ben passed away following a debilitating illness that now I would get used to not share all my thoughts and daily occurrences on the spot. I did get used to sleeping alone even though often I patted the bed next to me.
Then a great friendship turned to something more, to a form of companionship with the help of the internet and YES I started to believe in a new beginning, though aware of the many obstacles or difficulties.
If I was reluctant at first to see it as a reality and not a dream, that book really made it possible for me.
No, I did not feel let down by the ending, more like sad for Addie. She dared enough to start the relationship, but not enough to oppose Gene's blackmail. That blackmail infuriated me!
2. IS it that family is always first and it's inevitable?
That depends of each individual case I suppose. I lived isolated - in a different country- from all my extended family. I only met aunts, uncles, cousins, grand parents after I was 23. So the links to them cannot be that strong as if we had memories or childhood experiences together. No bro or sis, so my friends were my family then, probably today as well.
I don't think I exactly know what a family life is really like. So ... I am much attached to my only grandson, but then I don't expect to be in such a dilemma.
3.
Is this book positive? Is it negative? What do YOU think?"
For me, very positive, very realistic, very true to life. It can be an eye opener in that it shows different aspects of what is happening, of the connecting threads between people. It was written with great insight.
Thanks Marcie for the article, it added to my understanding of the book.
In short it illustrates how I see life overall: we each are like a different colored thread forming the tapestry of life, each helping form the image while crossing and mixing together before diverting in different directions.
Because of circumstances in my personal life, I had to live in different countries time and again and each time there was the painful parting with friends, routine, surroundings. It made me feel at times without roots. Thus I know the importance of connecting with others, and how that can be missed so much when we have no alternative but to accept what fate inflicts on us.
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Back at last, and the eyes have now returned to normal so I can see and what super posts and points, it's a pleasure to read them again!
I'll start with Leah.
What an interesting post you put here. It's almost like a "poem should not mean, but be." I had read it before in another discussion and that was why I had said, "if you must, moral," because I knew you did not like those. And not every story has one but most eery story has a theme. Or more than one.
don't feel inclined to looking for a moral in what I read. As for themes, well, that seems to me to be a pretty personal experience. So, when it comes to assessing the characters' motives and such, I always seem to be facing myself. What an interesting statement this is and one like it later on.
I have a feeling that most authors want their readers to be just like this. To get swept up in the book, the creation of the book , and not bother with the mechanical means, the Cliff Notes type analysis of plot and theme, etc., or the articulation of the art or skill or dexterity which caused it. I know a lot of people don't care for that, some of them writers!
But when we read a book here as a book club, I personally love the analytical approach. To me it's all about plot, characters, all the technical mechanical things. I love Literary Criticism, I really do and once was good at it. I am now wondering what THAT means. hahahaha That doesn't mean I am right (ever) it means that I enjoy that approach. So what you're saying here is new to me, I don't think I've seen it expressed this way before. I loved that "facing myself."
Something more to think about. It's harder your way than mine. :)
I think my addiction TO a book club discussion IS so that I can see vicariously what you all see personally in the book, because I learn from that and I also learn from making mistakes in my own assessment. I really learn who I am from them.
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BUBBLE: "Thus I know the importance of connecting with others,"
Yes, you do. Your friendship has always reached out, in Seniornet and then Seniors and friends.
I have always mostly lived in or near big cities, where people are more isolated from their neighbors, and moved about a fair bit, making friends, leaving friends behind and making new ones. I have always wondered what it would be like living in a small town with the same people all my life. I was shocked at how isolated Addie and Louis were in this situation. They had known these people forever, but no one seemed to really CARE about them, except as a source of gossip. We on Seniorlearn who have never even seen each other care about each other more than they do.
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Jonathan, poetic as always, I liked your interpretation of "Addie's house." The house I live in is still known as the house of the former owners and we've lived here 33 years. Small towns, I guess, or what IS it about our need to preserve things like that?
There are really so many touchstones in this book, to be a short book he really notched them all, didn't he?
So you see it as perfect as it stands, I like that, too.
Radioman, that was beautiful. I can't tell you how glad I am that you and SoapBubble joined us and I hope it won't be the last time. I found this particularly interesting: I would say it is positive because it lays bare the harsh reality of the emotional cruelty of which man is capable. Sad endings do not necessarily make a book negative and I believe that is the case here.
I think Soapbubble is a lucky person. :)
Marcie, again a super post with great points: I'm seeing a portrayal of the power of reaching out to another human being and making a connection. I think that the setting of the story is very much influenced by the fact that Haruf wrote the story as he was dying. He was under the pressure of his biological clock and his two main characters are also. They want to seize the opportunity for a close relationship, an intimate sharing of conversation, that they have missed in their earlier lives. They make the connection between each other and deepen it with Jamie.
The story also portrays the hurts and sorrows of connections lost or betrayed, the death of a child, people unable to look past their own hurt, an affair. At the end we see the price of Gene and Addie's inability to connect and Gene's inability to allow others to connect.
Just beautiful! The hurts and sorrows of connections, a major theme, and the reaching out to another human being. I am feeling very honored to even be in a discussion with you all if you don't mind my saying so.
The news of Haruf not having added the phone calls at night was electric!! I read the article with a slack jaw. Did you see his reaction to something she had said earlier about a character? He went to bed for 2 days. Golly when I read that I thought I sure am glad he didn't see the U word, huh?
Soapbubble, when I saw your post I thought I really hate to have to come in after that profound thing, as it should stand alone as a coda to the entire piece but here I am. :)
I thought this was electric: If I was reluctant at first to see it as a reality and not a dream, that book really made it possible for me.
I do wish you both every happiness, you are both spectacular, and both very lucky, and I hope that you'll come back often and talk to us as it has been a marvelous experience.
For me, very positive, very realistic, very true to life. It can be an eye opener in that it shows different aspects of what is happening, of the connecting threads between people. It was written with great insight.
Lovely. It's amazing how differently different readers see this book, which makes for the very best discussion.
In short it illustrates how I see life overall: we each are like a different colored thread forming the tapestry of life, each helping form the image while crossing and mixing together before diverting in different directions.
I can't improve on that, I couldn't actually have said it.
I hope that each of you here has enjoyed this discussion. The floor is still open for any last remarks. Many thanks to Ella for discovering this book for us and to each of you for taking time to give us your thoughts, and more than that, sharing your feelings. what a rich experience. I was thinking it might be fun to give stars to the book, our ratings, so I'll add that at the very end, some frivolity in the midst of the true profundity here.
On a scale from 1-5 stars, how many stars would you give:
Our Souls at Night:
Addie
Louis
Gene
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JoanK, we were posting together and I am SO glad to see you because I missed your final remarks.
This is a great comment: I have always wondered what it would be like living in a small town with the same people all my life. I was shocked at how isolated Addie and Louis were in this situation. They had known these people forever, but no one seemed to really CARE about them, except as a source of gossip. We on Seniorlearn who have never even seen each other care about each other more than they do.
Absolutely right and how astute of you to notice about Holt! I didn't. Yes surely the so curious neighbors should have cared about them. Was it the scandal (aka the bed) or what? I still don't know where Gene lives.
When I saw Soapbubble's post I also felt a kinship to growing up away from any extended family, an only child, moving not as much as many here, but enough, and now living far from where I grew up. I think that's why I was so set on having a "home" my children could come home to.
I actually think it's a benefit to move from where you were raised, however, the different types of people you encounter, the different mores and cultures, the different size towns from large to small or small to large requires adjustment and can't help but add to your knowledge of the world. Or so I think.
And through SeniorLearn, as JoanK has said, we can talk to people we'd never have met if we had stayed in our own towns, were it not for the internet. Benefit upon benefit. :)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online
Start date: July 18 Discussion Leader: Ella Gibbons
Our Souls at Night
by Kent Haruf
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/oursouls/soulscvr.jpg) | Only 149 pages but not one of them wasted. Haruf writes simply, beautifully, exploring human relationships; all the myriad emotions of life. An original writer, I think it a wonderful book, best book I've read in a long time, and I want to discuss it with others, share and explore our own emotions. Addie makes a proposal!
Join us, you'll be shocked at the first page, but do keep reading.
Read the entire book and then we will begin our discussion on July 18th. |
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I find it impossible to rate this perplexing story. But my five stars go to all the participants in this discussion. I could tell from the posts that it was 'close to home' for all of us.
Thank you, Ella, for making it possible and how nice to hear that you're back home again. We missed you, sorely. 'Loved this book' you say. So did we all, I beieve. And it's Addie that caught your imagination, and your admiration. And ours too. Addie and aging. For her it was all in the oncoming darkness and finally, in her last words to Louis:
'Dear, is it cold there tonight?'
Hold me, please, my darling.
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I cannot rate the protagonists in the book because for me this book constitutes a single whole creation. It is perfect as is for me and deserve a 5! Even a 10!
Not about the book but a general observation: big towns, small towns, people are getting more and more egotistical, self involved and thus isolated. When I first came to live in Israel in the early 60s, neighbors were friendly, caring, and there was lots of interaction like inviting a new tenant to have tea or coffee the first week, so as to allow them to meet the other neighbors. Baby sitting for one another was not rare.
These days, there is barely a nod of the head when meeting in the stairs or at the lift door! Is it an influence of the internet, or...? I find the lack of interest (except for gossips!) in the others to be very sad.
And yes reading a book like this one helps clarify our own personal understanding on how or why we react the way we do.
Thank you all for this insightful discussion. Ginny you are so kind in analysis and answer :)
For sure I'll mull over this book for many more days.
***** for SeniorLearn Book Club!
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A THOUGHT FOR TODAY:
In any free society, the conflict between social conformity and individual liberty is permanent, unresolvable, and necessary. -Kathleen Norris, novelist and columnist (27 Jul 1880-1966)
(in A.Word.A.Day with Anu Garg)
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Oh wow, thank you for those stars, I agree totally, Jonathan and SoaPBubble, you all have made it a great experience, and I'm so glad you enjoyed it! I really did, too.
When I first came to live in Israel in the early 60s, neighbors were friendly, caring, and there was lots of interaction like inviting a new tenant to have tea or coffee the first week,
Oh I am sorry to hear this has changed, and I wonder if it's like that everywhere in big cities? I went home one Christmas in the early '60's to the NJ area from college and had a New Years date with an old high school sweetheart who lived in a high rise in NJ. There we were on New Years Eve in this high rise and here came a knock at the door and it was (to me, at that age) an "elderly" friendly heavily accented Jewish gentleman who wanted us to come to their party two floors down. Oh we said no, we couldn't intrude, and he was most persuasive and after he left my boyfriend wanted to go. Oh no no shrink back, this introvert, I won't know anybody there! Shrink shrink. Yes, he said, why not, let's just look in and it was marvelous, just absolutely marvelous, the most wonderful experience! That "elderly" man whom today I would probably consider a youth, and his wife and their friends made it literally one of the best New Year's Eves I've ever had in my life, and we definitely were the only people under 60 in the room.
I'll never forget it, and let me tell you no New Years at my house to this day goes by without herring in sour cream with onions which I had never seen before.
The point of this long thing is that now, living here somewhat isolated on a farm in the south, I often think of that and how "lucky people ARE in cities" when their neighbors come in such manner and include them and call on them. I grew up in a big city and I well remember the closeness of the neighbors, and a rich mixture of people. Even when we moved out in the countryside, it was the same. But it was a different time, wasn't it? It looks like that's not happening any more?
Our discussion is over but how it it where you live? Are the neighbors close? If not, how do you account for this? Do you think it's fear? Or electronics replacing relationships? Or?
I just realized that we went to that party because HE reached out, just like Addie did.
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Thank you everyone for this wonderful discussion. Ginny, you are always a most gracious, thoughtful and perceptive host. I appreciate the careful thoughts of everyone who participated. I hope that our newcomers to our book discussions will continue in future discussions.
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Why thank you, Marcie, how kind of you. It was a wonderful experience to me because of the great perspectives of the group. I enjoyed it immensely, myself.
This discussion is now concluded and I agree, we hope to welcome all of you, new and old, to our next book club discussion.
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Ginny, you're just the greatest. Marvellous, standing in for Ella, on a moment's notice.
I'm sorry it's over. The book has left a lasting impression on me. Addie and Louis will forever remain the aging couple looking for warmth and companionship in their closeness. In bed. The sex, however, soon took second place to their shared memories. Louis's account of his wife Diane's death and his musing on their marriage and his shortcomings had an absolute pathos and honesty about it that left me shaken.
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Well thank you very much. :)
Yes it was a GOOD book and a GOOD discussion thanks to everything you all saw in it!
I really appreciate everybody's pitching in.
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This was an inspired discussion. Thanks, Ginny, for picking this book and leading it so ably. It certainly affected us all, and brought out so many different viewpoints, and I would never have read it otherwise.
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Ginny, thank you so much for taking over for Ella and leading in your usual gracious way.
The book was inspiring and all the opinions so thought provoking.
I live in a small condo complex and the friendliness of my neighbors is awesome!!! They are always offering help to those who need it. We are so lucky to live in what we call our little village. Recently, when I was ill, one of my friends here brought me a lovely small bouquet of flowers and reminded me that they were available for any help that we needed. Just call any time, she said. Makes me feel so blessed. And my other blessing has been to be a part of this wonderful group on SeniorLearn and SN since 1997. It's been so much fun making friends with folks from all over our world. We are so lucky.
Congratulations Soapbubble and Radioman! May your new life together be a joyous journey!💕💕😋💕
Hope to see you all in our next discussion!😋😋💕
Just had a new title recommended to me! A Man called Ov! It's a humorous story about an old man and his friends. Sounds good to me! I will let you know.
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And I add my thanks to our wonderful DL, our host, Ginny, for pitching in and finishing this discussion for me while I was in the hospital. This is a SENIOR site and we are apt to have physical problems from time to time and we all need to help one another.
Thanks to all participants who also liked the book and added their thoughts. We have a discussion once a month, so check us out daily!
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Annie, your living facility sounds wonderful.
It's great to see you here, Ella. Thank you very much for recommending this book.
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What a surprise to come in and see such great remarks!!! I've been out of town to some family reunions of my husband's family and am excited to see what's here.
I'm sorry it's over, too, Jonathan, I tremendously enjoyed it and I think you put your finger there on what resonates in the book. It's been a real pleasure.
Thank you Ella, and you're right, we all do pitch in for each other, and that makes it doubly enriching. I hope you are coming along well, that was scary! So glad to have you back!
Ann, thank you and thank you for telling us about your situation where you live now, the support and kindness of your neighbors. I am so happy to hear this because you deserve it, you've always been so supportive of everybody else! That's great good news.
That book sounds good, I've heard of it somehow. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on it. And honestly, we're not teenagers here, what can it HURT to occasionally read a book about somebody our age?!?
Thank you, Pat, I would not have read it, either, but I was surprised at the depth of the book when our readers got hold of it. The depth of our readers and their opinions never cease to amaze me. :) Loved the entire thing. Ella always picks the best books to discuss, it's her special knack, I guess.
We here ARE all so fortunate to have experienced this unique site and the benefits it has offered over the years, not only here but on SeniorNet as well. Very satisfying experience, all around, and so many lately who are new to our boards who add such wonderful thoughts. Doesn't get much better than that, how lucky we ARE, thanks to you all.
Hope to see you all in the next one, TBA.