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Archives & Readers' Guides => Archives of Book Discussions => Topic started by: BooksAdmin on January 03, 2017, 08:33:52 PM

Title: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BooksAdmin on January 03, 2017, 08:33:52 PM
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. 
We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.



January Book Club Online

Cranford

by Elizabeth Gaskell
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/cranford/cranfordcvr.jpg)
Published in 1853, Cranford is the story of a town that is
"in the possession of the Amazons."

Some delightful older women are battling to preserve the way of life and
the social structure in Cranford in the face of the "progress"
brought by the Industrial Revolution. 

Join us we read this autobiographical novel and get to know
the ladies of Cranford.

Discussion Schedule

Based on the episodes as they were published in Household Words.
(Depending how comfortable we are with the rate of reading and discussion, we can be flexible with the dates.)

  • January 2-11. Pre-discussion of the Victorian period, the author, and any questions you may have about the discussion process.
  • January 11- 15 Episode 1 Our Society at Cranford - Chapters 1-2
  • January 16-19  Episode 2 A Love Affair at Cranford - Chapters 3-4
  • January 20-23  Episode 3 Memory at Cranford - Chapters 5-6
  • January 24-27  Episode 4 Visiting at Cranford - Chapters 7-8
  • January 28-31  Episode 5 The Great Cranford Panic - Chapters 9-11
  • February 1-4    Episode 6 Stopped Payment at Cranford - Chapters 12-13
  • February 5-9    Episode 7 Friends in Need at Cranford - Chapter 14
  • February 10-13 Episode 8 A Happy Return to Cranford - Chapters 15-16
  • February 14      Final Thoughts. Happy Valentines Day

Some Topics to Focus on As You Read
  • The structure of society
  • The place of women in society
  • The narrator
  • The men in Cranford
  • Relationships among women
  • Changes that come to Cranford and attitudes about those changes

Relevant Links
  • Cranford (http://gutenberg.org) Gutenberg online for free.
  • Victorian Web (http://victorianweb.org)  This amazing link is for all things Victorian,  begun in 1987 with new information added each year.

Discussion Leader: mkaren557 (tommybrady26@yahoo.com)
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 03, 2017, 10:20:46 PM
Welcome to the pre-discussion for the book Cranford by Elizabeth Gaskell. I will start out by telling you all that I love this book and I love the ladies of Cranford.   During the pre-discussion please feel free to ask any questions about the Victorian Period, or about the author.  How about we start by talking about any Victorian novels or poetry you have read?  How did you feel about the book or the books that you read? 
     Let's try not to get into the discussion of Cranford until January 11.  In the meantime, get your book, a cup of tea, and your favorite sweet treat and start reading.  The reading assignments are based on the way the novel was first published in Dicken's magazine Household Words --- a couple of chapters at a time.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Frybabe on January 04, 2017, 06:09:36 AM
Good morning!

I haven't started reading the book yet, but as a prelude, I did watch the first season of Masterpiece Theatre's Cranford.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 04, 2017, 07:53:49 AM
Welcome to the book club, Frybabe!  The Masterpiece Theater Cranford is so well done.  I just read a criticism of the book in which the critic said that she saw it on PBS and then read the book.  She loved each in its own way.  One way to read this is section by section as we discuss it; then you will be a true Victorian reader.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 04, 2017, 10:38:45 AM
Frybabe, the Masterpiece Cranford is very good, but theydid shuffle and redeal the plot some.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: CallieOK on January 04, 2017, 11:58:47 AM
X   marking my spot.   
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 04, 2017, 12:01:14 PM
Hi, Callie.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 04, 2017, 12:10:51 PM
Good morning, or should I say almost afternoon.  The first time I ever read Elizabeth Gaskell was awhile back when we read Wives and Daughters.  I fell in love with Gaskell's writing.  She does remind me a lot of Jane Austen, my all time favorite author in this genre. The first book I was ever introduced to the English/Victorian era was Sense and Sensebility.  Oh my!  I began reading and remember thinking to myself, "Why in God's name does this author use so many complicated words to say a simple thought?"  It took me awhile to get used to the English way of speaking.  Once I placed myself into the era of the story I just fell head over heels for this genre of writing.  When Downtown Abbey came to tv I did not know what all the rave was.  I decided four seasons in to go rent all the previous seasons and do a week long marathon catching up before the next season was to begin.  Needless to say, I felt like I had plopped myself right into the setting of a Gaskell or Austen novel.  I was hooked!  Sadly, Dowtown came to an end, I have read every Austen book written, and now look forward to Crandford!

Karen and Rosemary I will admit prior to this discussion, I know very little of the history of this era, and did horrible in History in school, so I will rely on your knowledge and first hand living there to guide me through.  I like to see myself as a reader of enjoyment, picking up a bit of knowledge along the way.  The human character of the people are what I find most fascinating, their humor, idiosyncrasies, strengths, and weaknesses capture my attention.  Not to mention a little bit of love and war peppered in adds the spice to the story. 

So can I ask, would it ruin it for me to watch Crandford, before reading the book?  I never read ahead in our book discussions because I love the suspense of discovering what comes next.  Maybe I will wait to watch it after the book. 

Got my tea & honey, biscotti, and cuddly blanket on this cold windy day, so ready to begin this discussion.  ☕️🍪
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 04, 2017, 01:01:18 PM
Marking my spot - a dreary day - wish I could just stop and read but lots to catch up on first... till later...
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 04, 2017, 01:20:10 PM
Thank you, Bella, for joining the pre-discussion.  The goal I have for all of us is that we enjoy reading Cranford. We all need to do what we feel inspired to do as we read and discuss.  This will be the fifth time I read this book; I have also seen the PBS Cranford, parts one and two. I can honestly tell you that I did not feel as if watching the video spoiled the book for me at all.  Others may feel differently but have fun with this.
     You really don't have to know the history of the Victorian period to read or to comprehend the book.  I get very curious when I read something from another culture or era.  Now that I have the internet, I often go online to answer questions like "Did this really happen?"  Why do they do this or that?" When I browse the internet I find out other things that I want to read about.  When we took history in school, most of the focus was on the political/ military history; what really interests me is social and cultural history. I want to know what the ordinary people were doing, how were women viewed, what about the very young and the very old. and on, and on. This is what reading fiction does for me and I hope for all of us.  We will know how it felt to be living in a small city  near a large industrial city during the last half of the nineteenth century. 
     Happy reading!
     


Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 04, 2017, 01:55:37 PM
Hi all,

I have found it useful to make a note of the dates of Queen Victoria's reign (1837-1901) to keep by me during these discussions. As is typical of school history lessons in England, I don't think we ever got up to Victoria - spent far too long on the Middle Ages and all the tedious battles.

Re other Victorian novels, I first read Middlemarch (published 1871-2) a few years ago and I am going to have to admit that i did not enjoy it. Illustrious authors like AS Byatt have spoken of it as the best novel ever written, but although I didn't exactly hate it, I just could not see what there was to rave about.

By contrast, I loved Jane Eyre (written around 1847), The Moonstone (1868), Tess of the D'Urbervilles (1891), and most especially Vanity Fair (1848). And I also very much enjoy Dickens, particularly Bleak House (1852), Great Expectations (1860) and A Tale of Two Cities (1859). I have been trying to think about why I liked these books - I think it must be a combination of the page-turning plots (with lots of mystery, especially in Vanity Fair and Bleak House) and the insight into the way people lived 150 or so years ago.

I have not read a great deal of Victorian poetry - I was force-fed Tennyson at university and can't remember a thing about it.

I do however love the Gilbert and Sullivan operettas, which are still performed very frequently here, mainly by amateur companies. The Mikado,The Pirates of Penzance, HMS Pinafore, Patience, Iolanthe and The Gondoliers are all very popular.

I also adored Downton Abbey, Bellemarie, but I don't think it gave an accurate view of Victorian life for anyone other than the landed gentry. The servants generally had a much harder life than they do in the TV series.

I have not seen the TV series of Cranford so I can't say if it would spoil the book!  So tempting to get it on DVD but I will try to wait till the end of our discussion.

And speaking of DVDs, two films that I think tell us about middle class life for women in or just after the Victorian era are Testament of Youth and Miss Potter. In Testament of Youth Vera Brittain's true story about her life before and during the First World War, we see a woman frustrated by the mores of the time, which forbad her from having a career (she eventually went as a nurse to the field hospitals in France); in Miss Potter we see another woman whose family did all they could to prevent her having an independent life - Beatrix Potter of course ended up making enough money from her books to buy farms in the Lake District and help to found the National Trust.

Tonight only my younger daughter and myself are here, so we will be indulging ourselves by watching some of the TV that we recorded over the holidays because no-one else wanted to see it - eg the Call the Midwife Christmas Special and Last Tango in Halifax. And speaking of realism, I think the early series of Call the Midwife did a pretty good job of showing the appalling conditions in the London slums in the 1950s. Of course this was fifty years after the death of Queen Victoria, but I doubt that much had changed in the tenements and back-to-backs. The film Vera Drake shows similar hardship in 1950s London.

Think that's enough from me!

Rosemary


Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 04, 2017, 02:19:00 PM
I am so excited about reading Village life mid nineteenth century - all the gossip that still goes on in small communities and the little indiscretions that take on such importance like when I was young, the laundry had to be hanging on the line by 10: on Monday morning or you were considered a slouch - then the grocer who knew everyone's affairs but usually kept it to himself where as not so at the dry goods store where ladies purchased their thread and fabric for their new Easter dress - and this is just what I remember so what will we read about Cranford ladies in the 1840s - fun fun -

Yep, looking forward to a chuckle and wry smile as the small struggles of living become as important as the issues in London where they were building Euston Station - Trafalgar Square and erecting the Nelson column. They must have been also building Parliament since it was destroyed by fire in 1834.

Buttons, Bows, Tea, proper dress and etiquette - village style is what I'm hoping will charm us through January. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 04, 2017, 10:47:42 PM
Thanks, Barb. That has persuaded me to read Cranford. A happy read to get me through this damned Canadian winter. It starts getting dark mid afternoon.

A  wonderful pre-discussion. What an opportunity to learn something more about 'Victorian' literature with Karen's help. Somehow I'm not surprised to learn that it's 'preceded by romanticism and followed by realism. Can't get romantic if you exclude the men, as they do in Cranford. And where's the realism if you exclude what's happening in the world at large?

My copy of Cranford has my brother's name in it and was used in our Ontario high schools, and so was David Copperfield. My oh my, that was a long time ago. My Cranford has sixteen chapters.

I highly reccommend reading this book by candlelight. I shall do so. That will get some romance into it. Over to you, ladies. I'm listening.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 05, 2017, 12:47:08 AM
Jonathan, I am so happy to hear you will be reading Crandford with us.  I so enjoy you and your insights.  Hmmm... reading by candlelight?  I may give it a try.  Rosemary, I watched a bit of Call the Midwife and the conditions were pretty awful.  Barb, laundry on the line by 10: a.m., Or the neighbors thought you were a slouch!  Oh if my neighbors only knew how many days I never get out of my pjs til noontime, thank goodness times have changed.  Or have they?  Maybe my attitude has changed and I just don't care what my neighbors think!  😉
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 05, 2017, 09:11:32 AM
Good Morning to you all,
     Thank you so much for your questions, comments, and information sharing.
     Rosemary, I just love it when I get tips on books or movies.  I already love Call the Midwife and have watched each episode at least twice.  I understand your horror, Bella, at the terrible conditions you saw in the first episodes.  Some things had improved in the fifty years since Victoria's death.  Just the existence of the health services saved lives.  I have never seen Testament of Youth.  It goes on my list today. 
     I have never seen an entire Gilbert & Sullivan performance.  I must keep my eyes and ears open for something local. 
     Barb, one thing it will be fun to look at in Cranford is any similarites to life in small towns today. I get more excited each time I come onto the pre-discussion and you are all here.
     Welcome, Jonathan, welcome to Cranford.  I don't know that we can do much for the Canadian winter except warm your heart.  I got out my candle this morning and tried to read.  It is no easy task with these aging eyes, but there is something very calming about candle light  - - - and it is romantic.  I am looking forward to your comments.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 05, 2017, 10:09:53 AM
Good morning!  I opened my book and am wondering if everyone else's book has these parts to them. Karen maybe you can help in letting us know if we plan to include them in our discussion. 

My book has:

Chronology      (This gives account from Gaskell's birth to death)
Introduction    (New readers are advised that the Introduction makes details of the plot explicit.) 
Further Reading (Lists of other books: Biographical, Bibliographical, Criticism)
Note on the Text

Cranford I

Appendix I:   More on Cranford: The Last Generation in England' and 'The Cage at Cranford'  (pages 189-206)
Appendix II:  The Nature and Role of Women   (pages 207-218)
Appendix III: Fashion at Cranford     (pages 219-224)  This has some pictures to show the types of hats and dresses.
Glossary  (I was glancing through the glossary and it is quite helpful with words used back then.)
Notes   (This section is broken down by chapters to help us with better understanding.)

Also, my book as Jonathan mentions his as well has sixteen chapters, where as in the heading above shows only nine chapters.  If it will help these are the listed chapters in my book which were Episode titles in Household Worlds (followed by novel chapter numbers)

Our Society at Cranford  (1-2)
A Love Affair at Cranford  (3-4)
Memory at Cranford  (5-6)
Visiting at Cranford  (7-8)
The Great Cranford Panic  (9-11)
Stopped Payment at Cranford  (12-13)
Friends in Need, at Cranford  (14)
A Happy Return to Cranford  (15-16)

As I was typing this I noticed I have been using the wrong spelling adding a letter "d" after the "n" in Cranford.  Ooops!   ::)

My book cover looks like this:

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ff/44/98/ff4498beae91d586f2f246579ebe53de.jpg)





Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 05, 2017, 10:52:51 AM
Thank you!  Thank you, Bella.  My book has 16 chapters as well.  For now ignore the list of chapters for discussion, which I will redo today.  Just know that on January 11 we will begin discussing Chapter 1 Our Society and Chapter 2 The Captain.  Your book is exactly like mine.
    I did read the Introduction a couple of times for my own information, but some recommend that we don't read the introduction until the end.  So do what makes sense to you.  I also read the footnotes after each chapter.  There is good information in them but I hate flipping back and forth.  Appendix 1 is the first article that Gaskell wrote about Cranford; I read this after I read the book; Appendix 2 is more information about Gaskell and some letters and other info. about the Victorian period.  So, my advice would be to focus on the text itself and read the rest as it appeals to you.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 05, 2017, 11:23:54 AM
Thanks Karen for getting back to me, good to know we have the same books.  I will hold off on the Introductory since there is a warning of explicit plot revealed.  The other sections are in the ending of the book so like you said, I will hold off on that as well and just concentrate on chapter 1 & 2. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 05, 2017, 05:02:04 PM
Sorry to be a day late: I lost track of the days.

I completely agree with this ".  When we took history in school, most of the focus was on the political/ military history; what really interests me is social and cultural history." I want to know what ordinary people like you and me were doing, thinking, planning and dreaming.

I'm all ready for Cranford, thanks to PatH. For Christmas, she gave me a delightful book called "How to be a Victorian." by Ruth Goodman (I had given PatH another book by her "How to be a Tudor", which was a hoot).

 The book gives all the petty details of Victorian life, what they ate, wore, did with their day. Of course, I immediately turned to the chapter titled "Behind the Closed Bedroom Door" Details upon request: we'll see if they match Gaskell.

Today, I'll look and see what they ate at "tea", so we can have period snacks with our tea while we read.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 05, 2017, 05:30:15 PM
Welcome Joan,

I love the idea of snacks with our tea.  The book from Pat sounds like such fun.  I hope you will share with us as we read.   I used to have my sophomores do a trimester project as we did 19th century British history.  They had to become a famous person from that time period which involved researching.  Then they had to write 15 journal entries spaced through the life of the person as their person might have written them; they had to write a personal letter to a friend; then they had to dress as their person would have dressed and make a presentation to the other class members on a topic of their choice.  Finally, we would have tea, crumpets, where we would evaluate the process of doing that project. I was usually amazed with the final products.  Since I have retired I have gotten notes from kids that go like this:  The only thing I remember from history is when I was Charlotte Bronte, Cardinal Newman, or Charles Darwin. The fun part of teaching history, for sure.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 05, 2017, 06:00:30 PM
What a great teacher you were, Karen (and I'm sure still are!). My history lessons at school were as dull as ditchwater - I actually started A-Level History and got so bored I gave it up and took Latin instead. I love historical novels and TV series, but as with English literature itself, bad teaching can squeeze all the life out of wonderful subjects. These days teachers here are also so constrained by the demands of the National Curriculum, the constant testing and the way that schools are rated according to exam results that they simply don't have time to explore pupils' interests and questions.

That book sounds great Pat - I'm going to look it up.

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 05, 2017, 11:23:14 PM
Joan, so good to have you join in.  I love how you and Pat thought to give each other a book on "How to be a Victorian/Tudor."  I hope you will share with us along the way.  I had to giggle at you going to the bedroom section.  😂😂

Karen, that is the best form of a compliment for your past students to come back years later to tell you how much they enjoyed your class.  I have been blessed to have my students stop me years later and tell me how I made their time in my computer lab so enjoyable while learning.  I would love to have been in your 19th century history class.  I hated History in school and I know it was partly due to the teacher being so boring.  You would have been a joy to have as a teacher.

Rosemary, the testing is the same here in Ohio.  Teachers are leaving their professions they have enjoyed for years due to the common core, and the standardized testing.  This subject could be a whole new discussion in itself. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 06, 2017, 07:31:17 PM
Ha! Goodman let me down: she doesn't discuss "tea, the meal.," But my mystery stories and google do. I remembered that in the British mysteries I read by the bucketful, they are always eating "Victoria Sponge cakes", and looked for them. Indeed, they were supposed to be the favorite cake of Queen Victoria. Layers of sponge cake with jam spread between and top dusted with castor sugar. ( may have seen it made on the Great British Baking Show on PBS.

Here is a short history and recipe. Enjoy.

http://teainengland.com/2012/12/the-victoria-sponge-its-history-and-a-recipe/
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 06, 2017, 08:00:48 PM
Thank you, Joan, for your research on tea.  When I watch the Great British Baking Show, they are always talking about the quality of their sponge.  That must be what that's about.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 07, 2017, 05:50:01 AM
Victoria sponge often features in afternoon tea! Also cakes, scones (small), sometimes sandwiches, possibly mini vol-au-vents.

As you can imagine, afternoon tea no longer looms large in most people's everyday menu, but nowadays it is offered at many hotels, cafes and restaurants - some include champagne or sparking wine, which most definitely would not have formed a part of the Victorian tea. The company that runs the cafes in our National Galleries and Signet Library here in Edinburgh does it - you can see it here: https://www.nationalgalleries.org/visit/cafes/ (https://www.nationalgalleries.org/visit/cafes/) and here: http://www.thesignetlibrary.co.uk/colonnades/afternoon-tea/ (http://www.thesignetlibrary.co.uk/colonnades/afternoon-tea/)

I think middle and upper class Victorians would always have had it (viz Downton), though goodness knows how they managed to eat a huge dinner a few hours later.

Even today it is quite usual to stop for a cup of tea mid-afternoon, though it will often be drunk at one's desk. Tea seems to be making a comeback amongst the hipsters of Edinburgh; there are now entire shops devoted to it, with ridiculously inflated prices to match (though of course when tea first arrived in England it was prohibitively expensive and the lady of the house kept the key to the tea caddy).

I don't know why it is so much more popular here than in mainland Europe (presumably something to do with our association with India?) - in hotels that I have stayed in in France, Spain, etc all that has been provided is a couple of Liptons teabags (awful - no-one would ever buy that stuff here) and usually no milk at all. In fact I think the custom of providing tea & coffee making facilities in hotel rooms is a peculiarly British thing - we stayed in some wonderful chambres d'hote in France last summer but only one of them provided a kettle (and the owner was well travelled).

Even long after the Victorian era, afternoon tea is still mentioned in the novels of people like Barbara Pym, Angela Thirkell and DE Stevenson, who I think were writing in the first half of the 20th century. By Pym's last book (Quartet in Autumn - the title says it all...), however, proper tea was a thing of the past - though maybe that was because by then she was focusing on rather sad, lonely people who were down on their financial luck, as opposed to the comfortable middle-class sisters of Some Tame Gazelle or the affluent Wilmet in A Glass of Blessings.

When I was a student in the late 1970s we still invited one another round for tea sometimes, but I think even we knew that we were just pretending. Having said that, the University Library in Cambridge was still thronging with people - students, academics - at around 3.30pm every day, when everyone gladly left their work and met up for the tea room's fabulous (though not in the least smart) scones.

Am I right in thinking that in the southern states of the US, iced tea was a big thing? I imagine ladies sitting in those swinging seats on verandahs, sipping tea and exchanging the local gossip.

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 07, 2017, 09:31:45 AM
Thank you for  clarifying "sponge" as well as more information on tea, Rosemary.  Tea will be significant in Cranford.
      In the 1700s the British East India Company began a trade with China based on the barter system.  The Chinese wanted cotton cloth from the British and the British, of course, wanted tea.  The problem was that the Chinese were saturated with cotton cloth and no longer wanted to take it in trade; they wanted silver.  The British were on the gold standard and and the Chinese wanted silver, not gold.  So the British, being very clever, knew that the other thing that the Chinese wanted was opium.  So the British would go to India where they controlled areas where Opium was grown buy or take the opium where they would sell it to merchants who would pay them in silver and they would buy tea and take it back to England.  Soon the Chinese outlawed the sale of opium but that led to an underground illegal trade to support the growing Chinese opium addiction and the British "addiction" to tea.  Which explains one way India was involved with the tea.
     I had high tea a few years ago at the Empress Hotel in Victoria, British Columbia CA.  I would do that again in a heartbeat.  Each person had a 3-tiered silver serving dish with the most scrumptious sandwiches and sweets.  Luckily I had that at 1:00 pm and didn't eat dinner until well into the evening. 
     I live in Florida so I have often sat on a porch and had iced tea, which southerners drink by the bucket.  The ice trade in America began in the early 1800s in New England, which shipped ice to the southern US and to the Caribbean.  I know before that the Plantations had undergroung "cold" rooms to keep food and maybe to cool drinks.
     

 

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 07, 2017, 09:39:34 AM
That's fascinating Mkaren - I had some sort of vague idea about the tea thing, but certainly didn't know all these details; thank you.

The big British 'stately homes' also had places to store ice - outdoor 'ice houses', usually underground - but it must have been much more of a struggle to keep things cold in the southern states. When my mother was first married in the early 1950s she had no fridge, just a 'food safe' that they kept outside to put the milk in.

Yes, I'd definitely only be able to eat a full afternoon tea as a substitute lunch. Maybe the Victorians just picked at it, and ate smaller portions at dinner?

How lovely to have a porch! It would be pretty pointless in Scotland, I'm afraid.

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 07, 2017, 03:12:48 PM
'I imagine ladies sitting in those swinging seats on verandahs, sipping tea and exchanging the local gossip.'

I'm allowing my imagination to play with that idea, Rosemary, and it seems too precarious. Between the lively gossip and the motion I see only disaster. But perhaps that's the result of being traumatized in our high school dramatization of the play Disraeli, when, as the butler, I served up a cup of tea. (I was stage managing, but playing the occasional small part). I still remember rattling across the stage with the delicate cup and saucer. I could hear the snickers.

I'm delighted to hear about a 'plot' in our book. And even the possibility of 'spoilers' in reading ahead. That's more than I can imagine. I've travelled around England and found the villages  absolutely charming. I can see the postcards but I can't conjure up the plots. However, Mrs Gaskell has the ability to make it dramatic.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 07, 2017, 03:34:36 PM
Interesting thought crossed my mind - Gaskell has the ability to make it dramatic - placing the spotlight and seeing the importance in the little things - our lives are filled with days and days of little things - are we missing the value of the bulk of our lives - are we only choosing to remember the events, the trips, the big planned for accomplishments - we certainly celebrate them with souvenirs and photos - we love sharing the adventure of these bigger events - even the unusual occurrences as we encounter strangers or for that matter anything that raises our emotions, either anxiety or well-being within or outside our home.

Hmm what would it be like to look at the minutia of our lives more closely and see their importance to our well-being - the beauty - the wonder of it - we take things like clearing the table or choosing the dish to place our dinner on or even the look and feel of the foods we choose we take it all for granted - sometime I'm even annoyed since we would rather get to what we call more interesting or more exciting - we miss the satisfaction of the bulk of our lives that these authors like Gaskell and Austen or even Dickinson notice, seeing the charm and the small assaults to our senses, including them as the setting that adds to the theme of their story. 

I wonder if I could do it for a day - focus on each aspect of my actions - even my thoughts  - the weather - what I see around me - I wonder... 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 07, 2017, 04:14:00 PM
     One of the important questions in this book is about "plot."  Gaskell put this book together from the stories she wrote for Household Words.  How does that affect our reading?  What about unity and flow?  Are there any problems with chronology?  Be thinking about these  things as you read.  Thank you for getting me thinking about these basic questions, Jonathan.  Did that performance end your acting career?

    Barbara, as I was reading your beautiful thoughts, I all of a sudden realized that every time I read Cranford, I slow down and consciously read each sentence so I won't miss anything.  I may take your challenge and for one day I will "Live deliberately."
Usually when I read I am conscious about where I am and how much more I have to read.  For some reason I am able to relax into Cranford. Please don't put a lot of pressure on yourself.  If we have to slow down the discussion, we will. 


Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 07, 2017, 06:52:44 PM
From the T series, I got the impression that little things were very important to the ladies of Cranford, as they become to me, as I slow down at the end of my life.

One British idea that we Americans don't have is that of "the gentry."  Most of the characters in Victorian novels are gentry, and it helps to understand it. I'll try my Americanized version of it, ROSEMARY, correct me if I'm wrong.

Short version: it's the English version of "the best society." In England, social class is more important than it is in America (although it can be important here, too.) The upper class is the landowners (traditionally, land was the source of wealth and power). But land and wealth is passed down to the oldest son. this leaves a lot of younger sons and daughters who have the birth and upbringing to be upper class, but little or no money or property. These are the gentry.

there were strict norms on what they should or shouldn't do. The men could work but only in a few approved occupations: officers in the army or navy, lawyers, or the clergy.(or go to the colonies to make their fortunes.} Women, of course, were expected to marry "well." The lucky few married a lord and became a lady: the others were to marry a landowner or someone in one of the approved occupations.

If a woman didn't marry or her husband died, and left her unprovided for, her options were few. She could live a a "poor relation" wither wealthier relative, work as a governess in a landowners family. f she had a small stipend, she would live in "genteel poverty." She might be as poor as the poor working class families, but she was not one of them, and it was very important to maintain that difference, to maintain the small differences in style and manners that marked her as gentry, the small things could become terribly important, not as a source of pleasure, but as a source of identity: lacking money or property to mark her as upper class, style becomes everything: the mark of who she is.

Of course, other people could work their way into the gentry, but it was difficult, and formed the basis for many a novel plot.

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 07, 2017, 07:33:48 PM
       I think you are "right on," Joan.  The big problem for this group is the newly rich factory owners and those who have grown wealthy during the Industrial Revolution who are trying to imitate the gentry, to become leaders in society. The gentry find them boorish, without refinement, and Methodist, most of the aristocracy and gentry were Church of England at the beginning of the Victorian era.  The wealth of this group is growing and so is their influence so the industrialists are beginning to make inroads into society.  However, Rosemary may have a better explanation and more detail.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 08, 2017, 12:10:03 AM
I'm not even going to try to pretend I know much about the lifestyles of the aristocrats in England back in the Victorian era, but from what I have read and movies I have seen, I have always had the impression that the true aristocrats were those who were generational wealthy.  Those whose have name, property and money from passed down, so they look their noses down at the working class who try to achieve this gentry, Joan mentions.  Rosemary, without any disrespect or to be offensesive, the English articocrisy appear to be snobs.  In saying this, I also feel that's part of the interest and appeal others have of wanting to be a part of their lifestyle.  I know I personally have been fascinated in the Royal family since the wedding of Prince Charles and Diana.  I have an Ashton Drake doll collection of her, many books on her and the royal family, and watch anything and everything to do with Prince William and Kate.  Now that they have those two darling little children I am even more interested in seeing how they raise them.  Rosemary, quite possibly you living in this country, you don't necessarily see this, and if so wonder what all the fascination is all about.

Barb, you made some good points about taking the time to appreciate the little things in life.  I multitask so much every day I can't seem to bring myself to really settled in to read a book without my iPad, iPhone, computer and tv all on, with me constantly checking them.  I can't remember the last time I just read a book without these distractions.  I may give it a try.  With social media, especially Facebook, it seems people need to do everything grand scale and post it before than can even get home from vacations or events. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 08, 2017, 09:25:19 AM
I wouldn't pretend to know much about the history of the aristocracy and the gentry, but I am sure you are right in saying that 'old money' looked down on 'new money' - and it's still the case today. The aristocracy is alive and well, and would not give the time of day to people who've made fortunes through things like computer technology, theme parks or whatever - they may have to cosy up to some of these people to get them to come and publicise events that they are obliged to hold to pay for the running of their estates, but that would be as far as it ever went.

In Victorian times, it was as you say industrialists who were the 'new money'. Some of them wanted to be accepted and integrated into the aristocracy (this was never going to happen) - George Warleggan in Poldark is a prime example of this. Others just thought the aristocracy was ridiculous and went on their merry and newly affluent ways rejoicing.

The class system is still underpinned by all the little details that single people out and distance them from people they think 'lower' than them. For example, in East Lothian there is a village called Gullane. It's where affluent people from Edinburgh retire, or have second homes. People who consider themselves a cut above others always call it 'Gillane' - for no apparent reason other than it marks them out as posh.

And in Edinburgh, where old money is rife, you will still see little old ladies, who may now be living on very small pensions and finding it hard to heat their New Town (smart) apartments, tottering along to their local shop and still treating people  including the often immigrant shopkeepers, with the haughty arrogance that comes with their class and upbringing. Fortunately most shopkeepers, etc take it all in good part and are very kind to them. They are inevitably dressed in tweed skirts, head scarves and lace up shoes, the sort of thing the Queen wears when she is at Balmoral.

Bellamarie, I often see those dolls advertised here so they must be popular. Neither my husband nor I have any interest in the royals, but there are many, many British (or should I say, mostly English) people who adore them as you do, and of course I totally respect your and their opinions. Did you ever read Alan Bennett's little book The Uncommon Reader? I think you would like it - it's about the Queen discovering a mobile library and getting into books. It's charming and funny, but in a nice way. This is how it's described on Amazon:

'The Uncommon Reader is none other than HM the Queen who drifts accidentally into reading when her corgis stray into a mobile library parked at Buckingham Palace. She reads widely ( JR Ackerley, Jean Genet, Ivy Compton Burnett and the classics) and intelligently. Her reading naturally changes her world view and her relationship with people like the oleaginous prime minister and his repellent advisers. She comes to question the prescribed order of the world and loses patience with much that she has to do. In short, her reading is subversive. The consequence is, of course, surprising, mildly shocking and very funny.'

Rosemary

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 08, 2017, 09:58:14 AM
Rosemary, that book sounds like it would be fun to read!  I will have to see if I can find it.  Thank you for suggesting it.  My dolls are a limited edition, a bit costly, offered through Ashton Drake.  I wonder if the ones you see are knock offs, or made by other companies.  I also have a limited edition of Princess Diana's famous blue diamond ring, and the bracelet Duchess Kate has made popular.  Yes, us Americans do have a tendency to admire the Royal family.  I was a huge fan of the Kennedy family when JFK was president, those were called the Camelot years.  Makes me wonder if much like our desire for reading fiction or nonfiction of past castles, royalty, etc., is something we are curious of, and find enjoyable just knowing others live this way.   
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 08, 2017, 10:11:15 AM
Wow Rosemary and Bella, every time I cone into the pre discussion I am astounded where our discussion has gone.  The issue of social class will be up for discussion several more times as we read Cranford.  Do we have social class in the US?  Is social class always based on wealth?  Are there any advantages to having social class in a society?  When we played the game, if you came back again, when would you live?  I always said I wanted to come back to the 19th century and be rich.  I am no longer sure of that.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 08, 2017, 10:42:36 AM
Bellamarie - my daughters and I love seeing films of Jackie Kennedy, just as we enjoy all the dresses and cars in Mad Men, but the latter certainly shows how unfulfilling and controlled most women's lives were in the 1960s. I would not want to be a housewife in those days!

 I do think people are fascinated with the glamorous lifestyles of others. A family that seems to be an unending source of interest to people here is the Mitfords - Nancy (writer), Diana (wife of Oswald Mosely), Unity (Hitler's lover), Jessica (writer and Communist activist), Diana (now Duchess of Devonshire) - and I think there were some more that I've forgotten. I did read Jessica's first volume of autobiography 'Hons and Rebels' when I was younger. They had a very aristocratic and strange upbringing - typical of their class, in that they had property in Scotland, a huge estate in England, servants to do everything, but their mother made sure that family life was positively spartan, with handed down clothes, no fancy food, and even no medical attention because she did not believe in it.  Whilst the latter is just odd, the other things are very characteristic of the old money life.  It is sill not done to buy new clothes if the others can be mended, or to look extravagant in any way. Boarding school fees, however, are seen by these families as an essential of life - that's another difference between them and 'new money', as the old money lot still really look down on day schools, even the expensive ones. The firmly believe that boarding school toughens you up,and even if they hated it themselves, they never question but that their own children should go there - it's just 'what one does', and of course it turns their sons in particular into the kind of men we have running our country and our major institutions.

Now I don't think I would be interested in reading about the Mitfords and their ilk - in reality most of the things they did were only acts of rebellion in so much as they did what they wanted with a huge cushion of wealth behind them. They were (apart from Jessica & possibly Nancy) all horribly friendly with the Nazi party and the parents even had Hitler to tea. Nancy was quite a good writer, and I enjoyed her novels In Pursuit of Love and Love in a Cold Climate (which were thinly veiled descriptions of her childhood and youth) but I'm not too sure what the others actually achieved. I admire people who did things without Daddy's money more.

Karen - I don't think social class is based on wealth here. I know some extremely posh people who have very little - the difference is that they grew up in the great houses of old, their parents were aristocrats or at the very least members of certain professions (eg army officers) and a sense of entitlement and assertiveness was bred into them from day one. There are some immensely wealthy people in the UK who would never be thought of as upper class in a million years - people like the Beckhams or Richard Branson. Branson actually came from a fairly affluent family, but he'll never be posh. Meanwhile 'working class' does not mean 'person who is working' at all here. It is questionable whether the working class actually exists any more in this country - not in the sense that my grandparents were working class anyway. Then it would have signified blue collar workers, living in rented accommodation, being paid in cash once a week, many of the men probably spending their spare time (and money) in the pub or at the dog track, the women having endless babies (no contraception) and spending their time doing laundry by hand, raising children (who spent most of their time in the street) and trying to make ends meet, always terrified of not having enough money to pay the rent.

I would only like to come back now. I don't think women have had a good time of it in any period of history. Being rich would certainly have made things a bit better, but you've only got to see Vera Drake to know that even rich girls were at the mercy of men, had had few rights and no means to take control over their own bodies until at least the 1960s-70s.

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: nlhome on January 08, 2017, 05:33:30 PM
I am glad to read that the Introduction is not necessary, as I was feeling guilty that I started right in reading the book and skipped the Introduction. I'll check in with that later.

One of the books I bought this year for gifts at Christmas was "Unmentionable: the Victorian lady's guide to sex, marriage and manners." I gave it to my daughter and suggested she might share it with her sisters-in-law. She said it was definitely a fun read. I suspect  "How to be a Victorian" would be more educational and broad. I ordered it from our library.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 08, 2017, 05:52:03 PM
KAREN: right, the American equivalent of "working class" is "blue collar." most of us would be considered "middle class."

ROSEMARY: " I don't think social class is based on wealth here. I know some extremely posh people who have very little - the difference is that they grew up in the great houses of old, their parents were aristocrats or at the very least members of certain professions (eg army officers) and a sense of entitlement and assertiveness was bred into them from day one."

this is exactly what I was trying to explain. Originally, class was based on land. In the middle ages, those who owned the land had the wealth and power: everyone else worked for them. Along with their wealth and power, the landowners developed the life style we've all seen in "Downton Abbey."

the Victorian era was the height of the Industrial Revolution, one of the largest changes in human history. growing food, in industrializing countries was no longer so difficult and problematic that it absorbed most of human attention, and the source of power shifted from those who controlled land (the food supply) to the manufacturers and traders who were supplying other goods. The distrust of the landholding aristocracy for industrialists and those "in trade" was more than just the distrust of old money for new money, which exists everywhere. Manufacture and trade were threatening everything their lives were based on. The wealth and power were slipping away: leaving only life style as a basis of their superiority.

This takes centuries. it was beautifully portrayed in "Downton Abbey" Lord Grantham first sees the money to support this lifestyle slipping away. Near the end, there's an incident where the villagers follow his butler's advice instead of his on a village matter and he realizes his power and authority are gone, too. Only life style is left, and many lords have lost that. To keep it, he must enter the despised world of trade.

The little old ladies ROSEMARY mentioned are the poor gentry I talked about earlier: daughter of Aristocrats or their descendants who failed to "marry well."  From the Cranford TV series, I think we are going to meet their great grandmothers in this book.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 08, 2017, 06:30:08 PM
Welcome to the discussion, nlhome.  No guilt allowed in this book club.  In fact, I will mention this again when the actual discussion starts on Wednesday but because of the episodic set up of this book, it is possible to pick up the discussion and the reading without getting too lost. 
    I think we had a great discussion today Bella, Rosemary, and Joan.  I am learning so much from all of you.  It is going tone so much fun to put names and faces on the general issues we have touched upon in pre-discussion.  One of the big issues for the Victorians basically revolves around what is the proper role for women?  The referred to this as the "woman question."   We will clearly be discussing this much more.
    I got the How to be a Victorian book, Joan, I am just loving it.  It covers the little things that we don't ofter think of like the issue of body odor.  Deodorant (de odor, I just made the connection) didn't make an appearance until the 20th century.  With that thought, have a nice evening.


Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 08, 2017, 08:05:36 PM
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. 
We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.



January Book Club Online

Cranford

by Elizabeth Gaskell
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/cranford/cranfordcvr.jpg)
Published in 1853, Cranford is the story of a town that is
"in the possession of the Amazons."

Some delightful older women are battling to preserve the way of life and
the social structure in Cranford in the face of the "progress"
brought by the Industrial Revolution. 

Join us we read this autobiographical novel and get to know
the ladies of Cranford.

Discussion Schedule

Based on the episodes as they were published in Household Words.
(Depending how comfortable we are with the rate of reading and discussion, we can be flexible with the dates.)

  • January 2-11. Pre-discussion of the Victorian period, the author, and any questions you may have about the discussion process.
  • January 11- 15 Episode 1 Our Society at Cranford - Chapters 1-2
  • January 16-19  Episode 2 A Love Affair at Cranford - Chapters 3-4
  • January 20-23  Episode 3 Memory at Cranford - Chapters 5-6
  • January 24-27  Episode 4 Visiting at Cranford - Chapters 7-8
  • January 28-31  Episode 5 The Great Cranford Panic - Chapters 9-11
  • February 1-4    Episode 6 Stopped Payment at Cranford - Chapters 12-13
  • February 5-9    Episode 7 Friends in Need at Cranford - Chapter 14
  • February 10-13 Episode 8 A Happy Return to Cranford - Chapters 15-16
  • February 14      Final Thoughts. Happy Valentines Day

Some Topics to Focus on As You Read
  • The structure of society
  • The place of women in society
  • The narrator
  • The men in Cranford
  • Relationships among women
  • Changes that come to Cranford and attitudes about those changes

Relevant Links
  • Cranford (http://gutenberg.org) Gutenberg online for free.
  • Victorian Web (http://victorianweb.org)  This amazing link is for all things Victorian,  begun in 1987 with new information added each year.

Discussion Leader: mkaren557 (tommybrady26@yahoo.com)



Karen I like the game you mentioned if you came back again where would you chose to be?  As an aspiring writer my inner self is yelling Victorian but my true self is saying during the seventies when women were burning their bras, coming of age, and beginning a whole new role in their place in the world.  I graduated in 1970 in a small rural town that was just beginning to bring in fast food restaurants, shopping strips not yet malls, and more women teachers in the schools than ever before.  Our class of 70' broke the dress code at our High school, I was on the student council that fought for the change and we hold that honor of a new era. I loved everything about the 70's, it was a freeing time for me, making the path for so much more to come, especially for the females. I was not a hippie, nor did I ever do drugs or drink alcohol, and the only rebel in  me was skipping class and going outside across the street from my high school to sit with the black students who were having a very quite sit out.  They asked me what did I think I was doing?  I asked them, what did they think they were doing?  They said, "We are having a sit out."  I replied, "So I am joining in with you."  They laughed and we sat out for the afternoon.  My principal called me into his office, asked what did I think I was doing, and I told him like I told the black students, joining in on a sit out.  He just shook his head and laughed at me.  Yep, the 70s is where I would love to be!
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 09, 2017, 04:35:25 PM
Just finished the first two chapters of Cranford and can't wait to begin discussing it!  What a mixed bag of emotions in just two chapters!
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 09, 2017, 06:54:51 PM
BALLABARIE: I'm with you on that

" It covers the little things that we don't ofter think of like the issue of body odor

You think the Victorians were bad, the Elizabethans only took a bath once a year. The same author, in "How to be a Tudor" claims she tried their system of cleanliness (no soap or water) for six months, and was still socially acceptable. None of us believe her.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 10, 2017, 12:06:10 PM
Joan, I can't imagine going a year or six months without a bath.  I know we over bath and it is recommended in the winter not to shower/bath every day for the sake of your skin drying out so badly, but if I let my hair go more than 2 days I would be scary.  I am imagining all those beautiful women back in the Victorian or Elizabethan ages all dressed in those beautiful gowns and bonnets smelling to high heaven.  Do you suppose the lavender sachet scents helped?
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 10, 2017, 01:32:08 PM
I think they must have become "noseblind" and stopped smelling anything.

I read the first two chapters and loved them. her writing is delightful. Can't wait to start.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 10, 2017, 03:37:37 PM
I read somewhere that the ladies of the aristocracy and the gentry much use of scents.  They did stand up baths every morning with a pitcher of water and a cloth.  Apparently they rubbed themselves all over with a dry cloth as well.  I know that when I was in boarding school, we could only take two showers a week and only wash our hair once a week.  The only times our uniforms got washed was when we went home, every 6 weeks or so.  I don't remember body odor, but then we all probably smelled.
     Tomorrow we start and I am so excited.  I am going to put a reminder in the library.  I will look forward to talking to both of you, Bella and Joan, tomorrow.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 10, 2017, 05:11:39 PM
This is going to be fun as well as informative. Did you know that Paris had the reputation of being the smelliest place in the world - in former times? Voila! The most wonderful perfumes changed that image.

Were you surprised, Joan? Already in Chapter Two we're given a first look Behind the Closed Bedroom Door. Now that's Victorian. I was left in tears.

How surprising to hear that the Mitfords, David and Sydney, had Hitler to tea. They did something that Winston Churchill didn't manage. He tried for a meeting, on a quick visit to Germany, in 1937 I believe, but Hitler declined the opportunity. It could have changed the course of history.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 10, 2017, 06:08:02 PM
I checked out many books on the Mitford sisters this past summer, they were an interesting bunch.

The sisters, six daughters of David Freeman-Mitford, 2nd Baron Redesdale, and Sydney Bowles, became celebrated, and at times scandalous, figures that were caricatured, according to The Times journalist Ben Macintyre, as "Diana the Fascist, Jessica the Communist, Unity the Hitler-lover; Nancy the Novelist; Deborah the Duchess and Pamela the unobtrusive poultry connoisseur".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitford_family
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 10, 2017, 06:39:07 PM
Jonathan
You started something  I just bought The Sisters: The Saga of the Mitford Family. I can't wait to start it.

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 11, 2017, 03:43:01 AM
I will be interested to hear what you think of the Mitfords, Mkaren. I was fascinated by them as a teenager, but as I mentioned earlier, I think I've had more than enough of them now. I do recommend Jessica's book Hons and Rebels though - it's a window into a very different world.

Jessica's first husband (a cousin and fellow member of the aristocracy) was killed in the war. She then married American civil rights lawyer Robert Treuhaft and lived in the US for the rest of her life. She was completely different from her sisters, and did all sorts of things in her life. 

I've just read (on Wiki!) that JK Rowling cites Jessica as the author who has most influenced her (on the basis of reading Hons and Rebels as a teenager (sadly it didn't spur me on to write Harry Potter, but it did have an impact on me) - which is quite a credit!

And now I've made myself late for work.....

R

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 11, 2017, 07:26:37 AM
The book club discussion of Cranford is now open.  I have my morning coffee beside me and it is quiet in the early Florida morning.  I took a writing class once and the teacher talked about the opening sentence setting the tome for the rest of the text.  When I first read Cranford, I was drawn in immedialely by, "In the first place, Cranford is in the possession of the Amazons, all the holders of the houses, above a certain rent, are women."  I wonder what you thought when you read the first sentence.  Or the first paragraph?  This morning is about beginnings.  So let's start.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 11, 2017, 10:36:30 AM
My first thought when I read that first sentence was, "What on earth do they mean by the word Amazons?"  I actually had to look the word up on Google to make sense of why Gaskell would use this particular word in this story.

The real Amazons were long believed to be purely imaginary. They were the mythical warrior women who were the archenemies of the ancient Greeks. Every Greek hero or champion, from Hercules to Theseus and Achilles, had to prove his mettle by fighting a powerful warrior queen.Oct 28, 2014

In some versions of the myth, no men were permitted to have sexual encounters or reside in Amazon country; but once a year, in order to prevent their race from dying out, they visited the Gargareans, a neighbouring tribe. The male children who were the result of these visits were either killed, sent back to their fathers or exposed in the wilderness to fend for themselves; the girls were kept and brought up by their mothers, and trained in agricultural pursuits, hunting, and the art of war. In other versions when the Amazons went to war they would not kill all the men. Some they would take as slaves, and once or twice a year they would have sex with their slaves.[15]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons

As I read more into the chapter I suppose it made sense finding there were no men in Cranfornd, except Captain Brown, or servants.  I still find it interesting how Gaskell used a mythical word to describe the ladies of Cranford.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 11, 2017, 11:48:50 AM
I think the first thought I had was' Oh, this is going to be terribly intellectual'! - which of course it isn't, but clearly Mrs Gaskell was educated.

When she continues by saying that there are hardly any men in Cranford, I did wonder how that could be lifelike. Then I started to think about all the 'commuter towns' and villages we have here in the UK today. Many places are populated entirely by young mothers with small children and retired people from early in the morning till late at night. Long distance commuting is becoming more and more of a trend, as people have to live farther and farther away from the cities to be able to buy a decent house. When the population is largely retired it tends to consist of more women than men because men die younger - so we end up with communities of young mothers and elderly ladies.

In Edinburgh I am very fortunate in being able to walk to work, but to do so I pass Haymarket Station and see people pouring out of it to work in the city. In London, of course, this is the norm (and I am so glad I no longer have to do it.) Cranford, then, could really be many modern towns and villages, 'dormitory' towns for workers - except in Cranford the men seem to be away for longer, with their regiments, on their ships and so on.

Mrs Gaskell says that when any married couples turn up, the men tend to 'disappear' - she seems to mean not only in the sense of their working away, but also that any who stay seem to 'shrink' - and again I think this is true of some retired couples. The women are often (though not always - I appreciate this is a gross generalisation!) the 'joiners', who get involved in all the local groups and who volunteer for everything, the men sometimes seem to stagnate in front of the TV or devote themselves to the golf course. And I do think women who have been used to being at home all day by themselves (probably now a dying breed, as in most modern marriages both partners have to work) can find the omnipresence of their newly retired husbands a bit of a challenge! It's important, I think, for each to retain or develop their own interests.

It's a great opening, as it really grabs the reader's attention - we have to make a bit of an effort to work it out. (Although is that just because we are reading this 200 years later? Would everything have been far more obvious to the Victorian reader?)

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 11, 2017, 12:03:16 PM
It's an interesting choice, isn't it, to describe these outwardly gentle and restrained women, and I think we will see ways in which it fits rather well.  The whole first paragraph is a little masterpiece of sly remarks.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 11, 2017, 01:20:10 PM
Bella. I too had to look up the word Amazons.  I vaguely knew but but didn't know all the detail that you uncovered.  I really loved the lines in the first paragraph about the married couple who moves into Cranford and "somehow the gentleman disappears."  How?  He is frightened to death by being the only man at evening parties or "called" away by business.  I chuckles, still thinking about the Amazons would drive the men from the island, probably not by evening parties. 

Rosemary. The way that the big cities spread during the Victorian age was that the gentry and upper middle class moved to the rural villages where their families lived and the men might have clubs or houses in cities like Drumble and only came home occasionally.(  I'm not sure it was once a year)   "A man is so in the way in the house."  I have heard more women say that about their retired husbands.

Pat I think that is always what slows me down when I read this particular book.  Almost every sentence has some clever observation and Mrs. Gaskell does have a way with words.  Charles Dickens so admired her storytelling  that he called her his "Scherezade" and told her to write all the stories she knew when he hired her for Household Words.

Great start. Please feel free to take the discussion in any direction you want. I'd like to think of myself as a facilitator, who justs suggests. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 11, 2017, 01:48:13 PM
I have to giggle reading, "A man is so in the way in the house."  Rosemary, "I have heard more women say that about their retired husbands."

I can say when my hubby retired before me, I was running my own in home day care business, and having him under foot was a bit of a challenge at first, but then he became a huge help.  Now that I have been retired for over a year he and I have had to make adjustments so we can have our own space when we need it.  Our home works out perfectly because our entire basement is refinished into a family room/den so he loves going down there to do his computer, sports watching, and I have the entire first floor to myself.  We seem to have an ideal set up as long as he can stop changing my kitchen around now that he does more cooking than me.  We have always enjoyed each other's company, so I would never fit in with the Amazons of Crandford. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 11, 2017, 02:19:29 PM
I am so glad that you have worked all that out, Bella.  I have a friend who is a therapist who counsels newly retired couples about all the things you mentioned.  Maybe there is a book in you on this.
However, Cranford was another time and another place.  It was a woman's place to run the household.  It was her sphere and the last thing she would want would be any help from her husband.  And, of course, the other part of that is that the husband was the ultimate authority on all issues and most controlled all aspects of his wife's life, so it must have been more peaceful for her when his was not there. I wonder if a relationship where husband and wife were friends and partners. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 11, 2017, 04:48:33 PM
It's all so hilarious. So ironic. No fierce Amazon would have been caught dead in Cranford. What? Frightening little boys? Chasing geese out of the garden? Deciding literary questions? (As we are now) Keeping maid-servants in order? Being kind to the poor? Prying into each other's affairs?

Twice on the first page we are told that this story is about the Cranford ladies, who are up to all the challenges of village life. To use such a powerful literary allusion as Amazons is meant, I believe, and there are few enough, to encourage contemporary feminists. But in this case I believe Gaskell is having fun with it.

Spoiler In the end it's the men who save the day. But nothing could spoil this well-told tale.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 11, 2017, 05:23:38 PM
Karen, Enjoy the Mitford saga. Mary Lovell is a great biographer. I'm about to begin her bio of Richard and Isabel Burton, A Rage to Live. Two more Victorian lives.

And what's this on my TBR shelf. I didn't know I had it. Jessica Mitford's book, Grace Had an English Heart, The Story of Grace Darling, Heroine and Victorian Superstar. Has anyone heard of her? The cover shows Grace rowing a boat on a stormy sea.

Our long Canadian winters are such a blessing, with so many books to read.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 11, 2017, 05:42:46 PM
Grace Darling is a famous heroine, Jonathan - she was a Northumberland lighthouse keeper's daughter who in 1838 rowed out to save some of the victims of a shipwreck. She even has her own museum at Bamburgh, and a lifeboat named after her.

I didn't know Jessica Mitford had written about her though.

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 11, 2017, 06:08:15 PM
Grace Darling sounds fascinating. I'll have to get that book.

BELLAMARIE:"We have always enjoyed each other's company, so I would never fit in with the Amazons of Crandford."

 I suspect that the women who enjoyed their husbands company just didn't participate in this little society of tea goers and evening soirees, and so became invisible, like the tradesmen.

Oh, dear! I may have become "vulgar" with my Victoria sponge cake!

"..it was considered :vulgar (a tremendous word in Cranford) to give anything expensive in the way of eatable and drinkable, at the evening entertainments."

Am I about to disappear, with the men? I repent and ask your forgiveness. From now on, I will serve only "wafer bread and butter and sponge biscuits."

Of course it's funny, but also touching.  This was a way of ensuring that all could take their turns as hostess, regardless of how poor.

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 11, 2017, 06:15:21 PM
1832. A highly fashionable woman is calling upon her dear friend. She glides through the wallpaper-clad hallway en route to the sitting room. When she arrives at the doorway, she pauses, turns 90 degrees to the left, and shuffles into the room sideways; her sleeves are so unbelievably wide, she can’t enter normally! Believe it or not, this isn’t a scene from a slapstick comedy; it’s exactly what ladies had to do in this era if they were sporting the incredibly popular leg o’ mutton sleeve!

The leg o’ mutton sleeve (also known as the gigot sleeve) acquired its name because of its unusual shape; incredibly voluminous at top and tapering just below the elbow, this facet of fashion resembled a lamb shank. First seen in 1824, this sleeve style grew in both popularity and size until 1833. In fact, by the end of its billowing fame, the leg o’ mutton sleeve was so big, the stiff horsehair fabric once used to maintain its shape was no longer sufficient. Instead, whalebone supports, large feather-stuffed pads, or steel springs were used to keep the leg o’ mutton sleeve looking perfectly pillowy.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/15/f8/a2/15f8a22c40a5f2e248767754c924d257.jpg)
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 11, 2017, 06:15:26 PM
How flustered, but pleased they are to have a man in their midst, even if he is clueless about the unspoken rules. JONOTHAN, you can be our Major, but STAY AWAY FROM TRAINS!
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 11, 2017, 06:41:42 PM
Leg of mutton sleeve as described appears as a perfect metaphor for how they ladies welded any power they held in Cranford - sideways - They glided through creating a position of control without the men who had all the power since wealth or lack of it was controlled by the men.

Land may have been what identified gentry but in Cranford they were villages and these ladies did not harbor husbands who maintained financial wealth  - the economic status and wealth attained in the earlier life of the widowed and un- married established their frozen status. Now, without men their status or power is maintained by etiquette, local cultural traditions made wider and stuffed fuller by the ladies.

Gossip is the local newspaper that supports the policing of these cultural traditions and moral rules that are as rigid and strict as the boning in the leg of mutton sleeve and stuffed with the last vestiges of pre-railroad values and morality just as their dress with leg of mutton sleeves is dated.

The railroad having altered daily life in the village, the ladies command over kitchen, parlor and dining room extends wider to the running of the village with no thought how to pay for its physical maintenance except to conserve what was, as there is no thought how to fund progress therefore, progress is dismissed. Ladies, village or not, during the nineteenth century have no power to affect community progress. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 11, 2017, 06:43:00 PM
BARBARA: you were posting while I was. Those sleeves are hilarious. I remember a movie version of one of Jane Austen's books where poor Katheryn Hepburn had to wear those sleeves (completely inappropriate. the styles in Austin's day (a little earlier) were completely different.

Even when leg-of mutton sleeves went out, women still had to cope with bustles and hoop skirts.

My "How to be a Victorian" explains how you had to learn to sit down in them. Do it wrong and either your skirt flies up, or you're sitting on your bustle and your legs fly up. You have to perch uneasily on the very edge of the chair, slightly sideways. It looks terribly uncomfortable -- maybe that's why visits only lasted 10 minutes.

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 11, 2017, 06:48:29 PM
BARB: we were posting together again. You said that very well.

"Now, without men their status or power is maintained by etiquette, local cultural traditions made wider and stuffed fuller by the ladies."

I love that! "stuffed fuller" indeed!
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 11, 2017, 06:48:49 PM
I am having trouble posting.  I just lost my last brilliant post, but what you are talking about is so much more fun.

I did ask about your thinking about the narrator.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 11, 2017, 06:55:09 PM
I think the narrator is perfect: the "inside-outside voice. making fun of the ladies with the same mix of exasperation and love that in my family  we make fun of each others' and our own foibles and weaknesses while celebrating our strengths.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 11, 2017, 06:57:13 PM
I am having trouble putting my words together tonight, so I'm not going to try to be brilliant again.  What I was trying to share was the 19th century beliefs about women.  The "women question" was broadly what are we going to do about women?  What about women who don't marry?  How will they be taken care of?  What about widows?  There was a belief that women could not maintain friendships with other women because they would fight.  So all of this is floating around as Gaskell is writing Cranford.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 11, 2017, 07:00:25 PM
Joan I love your comments about the narrator.  I love her voice as well.  She (and she is a she) seems to know Cranford and the ladies very well.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 12, 2017, 03:23:57 AM
I am not sure about the narrator. I find her a tiny bit smug. Am I right in thinking she is supposed to be younger than most of the ladies? And why is she constantly staying with them? (I suppose long visits of this kind were normal then, when no-one had much to do and, having servants, would not come home to a pile of laundry and sordid bathrooms, as I used to when my children were teenagers!)

There is a fairly awful but horribly compelling reality programme on TV here called 'My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding' - in it we see girls from the traveller community, often very young, being married in the most enormous dresses you ever saw. They are specially made by one particular dressmaker (who is frequently interviewed on the show). She will never say how much these dresses cost, but it is in five figures at least. They have masses of ornamentation, layers and layers of petticoats, often with big wire structures underneath them. It is apparently a status thing in traveller families. The poor girls can hardly move under the weight and shape of these things - sometimes they can barely get into the cars or carriages taking them to the church, and they have huge bruises and grazes from where bits of the dress rub. But they are all very into it. As I said, it is a strangely fascinating programme.

Fashion seems to me always to have sought to constrain women. Then it was ridiculous dresses, now it is stilettos and tight skirts.

I think many women of my generation who have not married - or who are now on their own - are still in a parlous financial situation, especially if they have taken time out to have children. I hope it will be different for my daughters, but in the current economic situation I don't know how it will be (except for those who become bankers, hedge fund managers, etc). I suppose in Mrs Gaskell's time most middle class women had some kind of allowance from their fathers (albeit often a small one). The poor were a completely different story (as Dickens shows us).

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 12, 2017, 09:32:41 AM
Good morning, Rosemary and all,
     In one of my past lives, for a brief time, I was a nun.  Your description of the wedding dresses reminded me of the habit I wore.  Each morning at 5:00 am I would get out of bed and put on the 13 separate pieces that made up the habit.  One of the pieces was a corset, which was awful.  I am a short, round person and , even though they special ordered mine, it dug into me under my arms and at the bottom.  So, each time I read about the "fashion" that includes a corset, I am in great sympathy.  Remember Scarlett O'Hara managing to achieve a 17 inch waist in the movie Gone With the Wind.  Also, I don't want to talk about what happened to me in the heat of summer.  Anyway, it was explained to me by someone that men didn't want to see jiggling.  Remember in Victorian times women were either Mary, pure and a helpmate to man, or Eve, the evil seductress.  I guess jiggling was an Eve-like trait.
     The narrator will be revealed more as the stories go on.  Her tone, I think, sometimes borders on sarcasm, but is certainly tongue-in-cheek.
     Rosemary, your observations and contributions are so valuable.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 12, 2017, 11:11:34 AM
Jonathan
Quote
To use such a powerful literary allusion as Amazons is meant, I believe, and there are few enough, to encourage contemporary feminists. But in this case I believe Gaskell is having fun with it.

YES!  I think you could have hit the nail on the head!  You could see this group of ladies as contemporary feminists.  And I agree, I can see the humor.  Imagine Gaskell sitting and conjuring up these scenes and laughing at herself.  I know in Wives and Daughters she was very comical.

Joan, I like how you have appointed Jonathan the character of the Major.  You have raised the rank of Captain Brown, and hopefully Jonathan fares better, staying away from trains will indeed give him better odds.   :D

Barb, We can always count on you to cover the fashion.  Oh how funny the leg of lamb sleeve is, and just imagining the lady trying to sit without toppling over has me laughing in stitches.   ;D

Rosemary
Quote
Fashion seems to me always to have sought to constrain women. Then it was ridiculous dresses, now it is stilettos and tight skirts.

Yes, why is it that we women are willing to put ourselves through so much misery just to be in fashion?  I curse every time I am trying to put on my pantie hose, which is rare and only special occasions.  After the age of 60 it should be doctor's orders for all women to never attempt to wear pantie hose!!  I do have to say here in the U.S. the fashion that is really popular especially with the twenty and over is LuLa Roe spandex leggies and tees, and now they are making dresses and skirts.  It is all a twitter!!  Seems comfort is their aim, and not caring if it all jiggles or not, so Karen the girls are taking on the evil Eve with joy!!   
https://www.theodysseyonline.com/23-ways-lularoe-addiction

JoanK.,  I agree, I think the narrator is just perfect.  She is like the person in the room always observing everyone, finding their strengths and weaknesses, relating them in a way that is a bit comical rather than cruel judgement. I do find myself being the observer when I am with a group of people.  I have about ten high school alumni girls I've reconnected with on Facebook.  We get together about once a month, and our table at the restaurant which is far back in a corner, sounds like cackling hens. I find myself watching and taking mental notes of each of them.  I suppose on some level it helps me be more personal on an individual basis to each of them listening to what their topic of interest is, and noticing their choice of clothes or food, noting which ones are single, have grandchildren, caring for their sick loved one, etc. Of course I chime in and share as well, but I do come away similar to this narrator being able to describe their dress, idiosyncrasies, and personalities.   I am anxious to find out who she is.

Karen, I wish I had a dollar for all the brilliant posts I composed just to see them vanish before completing to hit "post" or save.  I just got a warning on my laptop to plug in or I would lose everything due to low battery.  Grrr... and to try to rethink what you wrote in the same mindset is almost nearly impossible.

It's interesting to me that even though Captain Brown is the only male character in these first two chapters among all the women, he surely seems to be the one most spoken about.  So, is it fair to say when there is less there is more?   

 

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 12, 2017, 11:51:35 AM
As usual, Bella, I love your honesty and your comparisons(similarities and differences) to today.  As I was writing about the corset, I wonder if that is an example of men trying to mold us all into images and shapes that they find attractive regardless of comfort?  Which may be why shedding our girdles and burning our bras became such a symbol for the liberation of women.
     One of the beauties of Gaskell as a writer for me are the phrases she uses.  For instance when talking about the ladies of Cranford, she describes their dress as "independent of fashion" and described the frugalness of the ladies as "elegant economy."
   When I read the rules for calling, I wonder why did they bother?  Rules appear to take any spontenaiety and joy out of the process.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 12, 2017, 01:13:48 PM
Growing up as a depression baby followed by the scarce, restricted and rationed products during WWII "elegant economy" was a given - Spring hats were brought out each year and redecorated with new veils and trim - dresses were tucked, gussets added, collars replaced or lace pinned and if nothing else a fluffy hanky pinned near the shoulder like a corsage. With everything available on the cheap today at big box stores we forget how clothes were made fresh each year rather than fashionable. Clothes were chosen for their good serviceable cut and fabric knowing they would have to last for years and then, be cut to fit a youngster in later years.

It appears we are sliding back into the economy-of-less in clothes - not sure if we will have "elegant economy" but the chart showing the comparison of clothing sales for the last 50 years was printed last week and for the last 4 years it has dropped with a significant drop last year - I know among my grands the fun shopping for several years now has been in places like Goodwill where they smile and enjoy finding great clothes at less than a quarter of the price of new - it may be why retro is back in style since many of the clothes they find are from the closets of old folks that include old leather bomber jackets and barely worn wing-tipped shoes.

You have to wonder if it is a cry by many today from more than cost but for the values of their grandparents just as Gaskell seemed to have created a metaphor between the clothing and moral values and older cultural traditions that became the unspoken law for the village.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 12, 2017, 02:46:17 PM
BARB: :You have to wonder if it is a cry by many today from more than cost but for the values of their grandparents just as Gaskell seemed to have created a metaphor between the clothing and moral values "

Interesting.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 12, 2017, 03:26:12 PM
Preferring Mr Boz to Dr Johnson. '...the poor, brave captain!...killed by them nasty cruel railroads!...if he had only been reading a higher style of literature.'

Like Cranford, for example? This must have made the readers smile. How did Dickens feel about having his readers killed while perusing Pickwick? One writer helping another. I've just checked a biography of Dickens, and Gaskell gets nearly a column in the index. It must have been a close relationship.

Trivia question: What's the difference between 'leg of mutton' and leg o' lamb? And it's not that one appears in Cranford.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 12, 2017, 03:27:02 PM
The that poverty as a disgrace and therefore is not acknowledged among the women.  Being frugal was part of this elegant economy.  "Doing without" was a virtue.  I see that among some of the retired in Florida; my sister-in-law says she has not bought her husband clothes retail in ten years - -Goodwill.  My father would take my mother out to eat, but only for the early bird and no dessert.  And my nieces often look like they got their clothes from the local mission church.  But the Cranford ladies seem to take pride in their small incomes and the ways they cope.  And then in walks Captain Brown.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 12, 2017, 04:04:14 PM
Meat from an older lamb is mutton where as meat from a lamb a year old or less is called lamb.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Frybabe on January 12, 2017, 04:09:16 PM
Johnathan, a leg of mutton is from a mature sheep, a leg of lamb is, as the name implies, from a lamb. Mutton is supposed to have a much "gamier" or stronger taste  than lamb. It is also tougher. Most often it is cooked in a stew or casserole.

Ah, I see Barb beat me to it.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 12, 2017, 04:12:53 PM
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. 
We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.



January Book Club Online

Cranford

by Elizabeth Gaskell
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/cranford/cranfordcvr.jpg)
Published in 1853, Cranford is the story of a town that is
"in the possession of the Amazons."

Some delightful older women are battling to preserve the way of life and
the social structure in Cranford in the face of the "progress"
brought by the Industrial Revolution. 

Join us we read this autobiographical novel and get to know
the ladies of Cranford.

Discussion Schedule

Based on the episodes as they were published in Household Words.
(Depending how comfortable we are with the rate of reading and discussion, we can be flexible with the dates.)

  • January 2-11. Pre-discussion of the Victorian period, the author, and any questions you may have about the discussion process.
  • January 11- 15 Episode 1 Our Society at Cranford - Chapters 1-2
  • January 16-19  Episode 2 A Love Affair at Cranford - Chapters 3-4
  • January 20-23  Episode 3 Memory at Cranford - Chapters 5-6
  • January 24-27  Episode 4 Visiting at Cranford - Chapters 7-8
  • January 28-31  Episode 5 The Great Cranford Panic - Chapters 9-11
  • February 1-4    Episode 6 Stopped Payment at Cranford - Chapters 12-13
  • February 5-9    Episode 7 Friends in Need at Cranford - Chapter 14
  • February 10-13 Episode 8 A Happy Return to Cranford - Chapters 15-16
  • February 14      Final Thoughts. Happy Valentines Day

Some Topics to Focus on As You Read
  • The structure of society
  • The place of women in society
  • The narrator
  • The men in Cranford
  • Relationships among women
  • Changes that come to Cranford and attitudes about those changes

Relevant Links
  • Cranford (http://gutenberg.org) Gutenberg online for free.
  • Victorian Web (http://victorianweb.org)  This amazing link is for all things Victorian,  begun in 1987 with new information added each year.

Discussion Leader: mkaren557 (tommybrady26@yahoo.com)




Barb and Karen you made me remember a conservation I had recently with my younger sister who was telling me about how my brother in law (married to our older sister) has been going to a goodwill store buying his clothes.  Now what makes this so newsworthy for her to be telling me this is his wife our sister is so high society she has to name drop the high end store she buys all her clothes at.  We know for a fact they are rolling in money, have no loans, paid cash for the most expensive cars and had their house paid off before either of them retired and was banking his entire income years before retirement.  She and I got the biggest laugh out of the expression on our sister's face when he so boldly announced he is buying his clothes at a goodwill store!  Oh the irony in this.  She has been such a snob and here he is humiliateing her in front of those she has bragged to for years.  I think maybe I can see why Cranford has kept the men away. 

Jonathon, you reminded me I wanted to Google Pickwick to see just what those were.  Another bit of Gakell's irony in her writing, especially after such a fuss and argument he and Miss Jenkyns had over the authors.

In answer to your trivia question I will guess the age of the animal.  Ooops just saw Frybabe and I were posting at the same time!
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 12, 2017, 04:18:46 PM
Now I know Gaskell and Dickens had to be very good friends or he would not have allowed her to use his papers as the reason for argument and the death of Captain Brown!  Do you suppose they got a good laugh of this?


The Posthumous Papers of the Pickwick Club (also known as The Pickwick Papers) was Charles Dickens' first novel. ... Dickens (still writing under the pseudonym of Boz) increasingly took over the unsuccessful monthly publication after the original illustrator Robert Seymour had committed suicide.
The Pickwick Papers - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pickwick_Papers

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Pickwickclub_serial.jpg/130px-Pickwickclub_serial.jpg)
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 12, 2017, 05:16:10 PM
Dickens loved the stories Mrs. Gaskell wrote.  He read, "The Last Generation in England" and immediately asked her to write for his new magazine, Household Words.  He told her to tell an many stories as she could write.  So she wrote Cranford in 8 installments.  Apparently the road was not always smooth for the relationship among the two authors, but he always admired her writing.  I know she stopped writing for him, but after the publication of Cranford as a novel in 1853, her career took off.  I tried to find the quote but Dickens referred to her in criticism as the little lady who wrote in miniature.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 12, 2017, 07:05:52 PM
I think the difference today is the young and many here in my community that is a community of professionals, where we have a Goodwill Boutique so that like the young no one any longer sees shopping at the Goodwill an embarrassment, a disgrace, a step down or a sign of poverty but rather, simply buying good quality that is an item we would pass along but have no family to pass it on to, which is in line with the idea of of swapping that is big, along with farmers markets and other ways of no longer buying cheap available at a big box store and then filling the dump with all this cheaply made goods that quickly look shabby -  I'm thinking many of us are caught in an opinion of shopping at Goodwill and the Salvation Army that is no longer relevant.

Funny to me is how today we are admiring authors whose stories were serialized in magazines and how we think so highly of Dickens - When I was a kid in school we did not read Dickens for that reason - I am smiling remembering we were told they were only magazine hacks that had no standing in literature - oh my how times change - and to think the Dickens Christmas Carol is probably the most read and best known Christmas story in the English language.

I've been thinking on the narrator's tone since you mentioned it Karen and wonder - that same tone was used by Anthony Trollope in the Barchester Chronicles describing conversations with Obadiah Slope and the Bishop's wife Olivia Proudie and Archdeacon Grantly but not for Septimus or his daughter, or even Mrs. Grantly who is his other daughter. It was as if suggesting by using wit, a pompous self-important view of the world was less valued. The technique appears to have started with the play The Way of the World and even Dickens uses the technique. I am remembering the dance master father figure in Bleak House. This literary practice morphed into a comedy of manners featured in plays written by Oscar Wilde and Noël Coward - this put down of the folks who were steeped in this unwritten law of proper etiquette, elevating its importance all seem to be folks without power of position - we often read in these stories of how down to earth those with the real power are in comparison, until we get to Wilde who simply had fun with the incongruity of it all.

I'm wondering if it is/was a put down by authors for the social game played by the powerless which is suggesting, 'know your place and stick to it' or else you look a fool and if you do not know you look a fool we shall be sure to caricaturist you as a fool. We do not see this played out in American literature. So I am wondering if we are actually witnessing the prejudice within the culture to place, rank, social position, levels of acceptability much as someone's accent could be place where they lived or what school they attended so that various treatment was the 'way' no different than the treatment in the US before civil rights which was based on race rather than social class...

Unfortunately for any self-respect these ladies needed some mannerisms to elevate themselves out of the pity-me mold and for that I think they deserve a round of applause rather than derided even if ever so gently. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: ginny on January 12, 2017, 08:07:11 PM
 What a fascinating discussion you have going here. I can't resist saying that we have Travellers in the US, now, in South Carolina, RosemaryKaye.  I didn't know what they were, and never heard of that TV program, but they live in houses a long way from any kind of caravan and are very reclusive.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 13, 2017, 09:45:20 AM
It's funny,Barb, I see the tone as very loving of these ladies and their quirky ways. Since the narrator seems to be "from away" as we say in Maine, she is observing the curious ways in Cranford and not being critical.  I can see her stifiling her laughter and trying not to smile.  I do feel a bit of superiority in the narrator, but I don't think its based on social class but the urban eye looking at the country folk. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 13, 2017, 10:31:05 AM
What is it about Captain Brown that causes the ladies to include him?  Do you think he intentionally defies the societal conventions? Keeping track of the time is not always easy in the novel?  Any conjectures about the years involved in the first two chapters? 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 13, 2017, 12:02:41 PM
I have NO idea how my prior 2718 post got so chopped up.  Is that because it began a new page?  I know I was in a hurry and did not proof read or spell check meaning "conversation" not conservation, but the line text is all askew.

I like the narrator, I don't find her critical or snobbish.  She is observant and trying as best as she can to show us the personalities of each of the characters including a splash of humor.  I think the Captain in such an integral character in the first two chapters to show us how the ladies interact when a man is actually around.  Sad to say, he isn't around for too long to the demise of him attempting to save a child's life, he loses his own.  This really did make me tear up when I read this.  I had begun to like the Captain's presence, as did the ladies of Cranford.  Like I mentioned above, less is more.  When you don't have as many men or almost none, then the one you do have seems to draw more attention.  He seemed such a likable man.  I like how he and Miss Jenkyns challenged each other on their choice of literary authors.   
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 13, 2017, 01:15:39 PM
Maybe the ladies include Captain Brown because he simply doesn't notice their attempts to exclude him? He just marches in with both feet and carries on as normal. I don't think he does it deliberately - he's just one of those rare people who are really straightforward and good, and can't imagine that everyone else wouldn't be.

Or maybe he's just a little bit different from the men the ladies have met in the past - he keeps on doing them good turns, which they soon come to appreciate (eg unblocking the chimney) - how many men are as useful as that?

I don't find the narrator snobbish, I just feel she's a bit too clever sometimes. I get the impression that she likes all the ladies, but she does feel a bit intellectually superior to many of them.

I presume your Goodwill shops are our charity shops?  We have absolutely loads of them in Edinburgh - they even produce a charity shop map - and they are extremely popular. I love them, and like everyone I have my favourites. It's not just a question of saving money (I still buy my underwear in a 'proper' shop!) - I like to find slightly quirky things that are 'different'. My younger daughter buys almost all her clothes from them. I also like the idea that my money is going to a good cause. It's certainly true that attitudes have changed - when I was growing up there was one rather shabby charity shop in our town and I remember my mother (who was the very opposite of affluent) being horrified when she found out I'd been in it. Now she's as much a fan of charity shops as I am, especially for their books. I know that authors get a bit cross about this, as they don't get any royalties when their books are sold on in this way - but if I discover an author I like through a £1 charity shop find, I will often buy some more of his or her work from a shop or online, so they do benefit in the end.

I have to say though - and please don't shoot me down in flames for this - that I think charity shop shopping is largely the domain of the middle classes (at least in Edinburgh). They do not feel any shame or stigma in buying their clothes in this way, because they could well afford to go and buy them from Marks & Spencer if they wanted to. People who are really struggling would, I think, want to feel that they could buy new stuff. It's the same thing with the 'gypsy weddings' I was mentioning earlier - these exorbitantly expensive wedding dresses are part of the travellers' culture, and a sign that they can afford what they see as the best. These girls become the property of their husbands on their wedding day, and are condemned to a life of housework and having babies; the society they live in is very patriarchal and the women have few rights. Being the star on their wedding day is the one thing they have.

Anyway, sorry - this is massively off the point!  Barb, how amazing that you were not allowed to read Dickens at school - we were force fed him, and as result I didn't read any of his novels until I had children of my own. And none of my children has read him, though they did enjoy the TV series of Bleak House and the TV adaptation of Great Expectations, with the incomparable Gillian Anderson as Lady Dedlock in the former and Miss Havisham in the latter. The author that was off limits to us were Enid Blyton - hardly the same as Dickens, but I still think banning authors is wrong and counterproductive.

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 13, 2017, 01:35:03 PM
Ginny - how interesting to hear about your South Carolina travellers. Are they the same as ours, I wonder?

Ours are fiercely proud of their heritage - I am not too sure about it all, but I think some trace their origins to Eastern Europe (hence the term 'Romany') and many to Ireland.  In the past they would have travelled round the country, arriving at certain places at the same time each year either to run fairs or to take part in pony race events - there is still a big meeting for that in Appleby in Cumbria every year. It is, however, increasingly difficult for them to maintain this way of life, as they are usually turfed off any site that they stop at within a few days. (It is only fair to say that the local councils who move them on are sometimes left with a huge amount of detritus to clear up afterwards.) The authorities want them to settle down on special traveller sites that the councils are obliged to provide. Some do want to do this, some don't. The women and girls in these communities are rarely educated and marry very young. It must be very hard if you are a girl who wants to go to school and enter further education or vocational training - not only are the families always moving, there is also a great amount of prejudice against them, and I can imagine that they are bullied and ostracised in many schools if they do attend.

I have been to talks given by some traveller women (part of a Minority and Ethnic Communities project) who are working to improve things for their communities. They were very interesting, motivated, hard-working women, who want also to preserve their culture. In this country they are probably one of the most disadvantaged and excluded groups, and also one of the most private and self-governing. In Scotland at least racism, sexism, homophobia, etc are all unacceptable (which is not, of course, to say they don't go on), but attitudes to travellers are only gradually improving.

Whatever we think of them, it is interesting to me that this very traditional and 'different' group somehow maintains its identity in an increasingly amorphous society. Is that what riles people, I wonder?

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: ginny on January 13, 2017, 03:52:06 PM
  Rosemary, this will explain The Travellers in SC:  I hate to digress from the very fine discussion here. 

http://www.thestate.com/news/local/crime/article96051242.html
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 13, 2017, 04:09:43 PM
So much  here to comment on!

What a sneaky writer Gaskell is: we'll really have to watch her closely. Of course no one knew who wrote "Pickwick Papers" when it was published. So when Miss Jenkins is reading "A Christmas Carol" at the end and wishing the Captain had read improving books like this instead of "Pickwick Papers", she has no idea it's the same author.

What other little jokes are hidden in there that I didn't catch?
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 13, 2017, 04:21:36 PM
In looking at the narrator, don't miss the fact that, while she laughs at Miss Jenkins, how proud she is of her when she does the right thing, walking in the funeral. this was made clearer in the TV adaptation: she was defying all the social conventions that were the basis of her life, in order to do what was right. The youngest Captain's daughter was funny in her dress, but devoted her life to her ill sister. The Captain ran roughshod over all the trivia, but he was always there to help and gave his life to save a child.That to me was the message of the story: these people have so many laughable weaknesses and foibles: but at the core, when something important happens, they are GOOD, and will put other's needs ahead of their own.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 13, 2017, 04:33:07 PM
Speaking of funerals: we've read two chapters, and there have been two deaths: both under tear wrenching circumstances. Dickens also has many tearful passages about deaths. Of course, death of the young was very common then, almost a daily fact of life (I have letters from my great great grandfather, written in this period: he's on a train passing the cemetery where eight of his ten children were buried). But it made me realize that in Jane Austen, written a few decades earlier, no one dies (except people we don't know, offstage).

Is this just a difference in personal style? Or a difference in the type of literature that was popular in Gaskell's time?
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 13, 2017, 05:10:05 PM
I remember as a kid some gypsies came through the area where we lived and we were told not to open the door and not to talk to them in the street - the women all had large flat baskets of flowers, herbs and trinkets that they tried to sell from door to door and the men in singles would walk down the street playing a concertina and had either a begging dog or one had a monkey that would try to get into your house - Mom said the monkey would take whatever was laying around so quickly you could not catch him. Later my grandmother said a family moved into an empty house in her neighborhood and built a fire in the middle of the living room floor that they cooked over and then some time later the house burned to the ground that everyone blamed on the gypsies that magically disappeared.

Rosemary What is the difference between Travellers and a Tinker   - oh yes, it wasn't that we were not allowed - Dickens was simply not included on our extensive reading lists and his books, among a few others were not elevated to be worth our reading time however, the were all in the school library.

Karen looks like we have various viewpoints on the narrator -  :) - love it when there is more in the pot to consider - yep I do see this similar to the comedy of manners that is the stuff of Anthony Trollope rather than the sophistication of Oscar Wilde. Sorta tongue in cheek, light humor for the class that is reading the book who can appreciate the fun in making a todo over 'manners'.

Had no idea what Manx laws were - surprise - the legal system on the Isle of Man - criminal law codified in the 19th century- here is a link telling us about the law
http://www.acsp.co.im/info-centre/legal-system

And Tinwald Mount is probably Tynwald which another surprise - is the Parliament on the Isle of Man - Tinwald is in New Zealand where as Tynwald is more than likely the reference - here is a link 
http://www.tynwald.org.im/Pages/default.aspx

Don't you just love the analogy - the Isle of Man is a small ancient separate self governing although crown dependent island with its own legal system alternately ruled by Norway, Scotland and now dependent on Britain. The Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom having defended itself against Britain during the Napoleonic Wars.  The Isle of Man consists of 17 ancient parishes - I wonder if there are 17 characters in this story to really make the connection - what a fun example of elevating the social mores of this group of women living as if in their own 'island' of 'law' that protects their status and 'ancient' birthright. Love it... how much fun...

Good word Joan - just saw your post - "trivia" - with several authors treating etiquette and the war of manners as trivia which makes me wonder - it really was a way the women could assert their control when they had little to no legal power - that is what I am concerned about, minimizing not only the desire to control but for many woman such as these ladies the need to control - but must not have made myself clear - these authors that heighten the 'trivia' as something the rest of society sees as a frivolous bit of fluff, is really saying those who take the 'trivia' seriously are also a bit of fluff as compared to those who weld real power so that it becomes a comedy of manners -

Sorry folks I know several of you are not seeing this as I am seeing it - that is fine - I am overlaying the struggle for control, that for the ladies of Cranford is their reputation when that is all they have left in their poverty of life maintaining assets.  But then we have always said reading books on Senior Learn we all bring something to the discussion and there is no one outlook or conclusion.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 13, 2017, 05:51:40 PM
I never thought about the issue of control. I think when people are faced with a possible upheaval in their lives they try to hang on tighter to what they have.  Already we see the railroad has made its way to Cranford.  Cant. Brown with all his vulgar ways(talking about his poverty, not abiding by the rules for calling, reading Dickens, working for the railroad.  The ladies seem to retreat into their traditions and their own ways.  In fact, the last time I read the book I considered whether Gaskell meant the Captain to represent the new ways and Miss Jenkins, keeper of the old ways.  Just a thought.
Barb, I love the analogy to the isle of Man.  That is what we have here: an isolated rural village under attack from the outsiders with their vulgar and city ways.
Bella, I cried over The Captains death, Miss Brown's death and then the revelation at the end of the section that Miss Jenkins will die.


I too had "gypsies"near my town and was threatened with dire punishments if I talked to them.  We were told that they stole everything, even children.  In my old age I have become more enlightened and find the traveling families fascinating. 


Joan, One characteristic Victorian literature is that it becomes more dark as the century goes on. In Dickens and Gaskell lay out for society the lives of people who become victims the urban squalor and poverty that came with "progress". The main characters for the most part are people trying to survive.  Death is everywhere.  Pride and Prejudice with its happy resolution and Gaskell's first novel Mary Barton, barely able to stay alive, show the transition from the romanticism of the early19th century to mid century.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 13, 2017, 06:04:20 PM
By the way, I love it that we are getting a variety of views in the book club.   I don't know about you, but it prompts me to think and rethink passages.  Just because someone gives an explanation for something or has an opinion that differs from yours doesn't mean that what you want to say is not valid.  Jump right in.

I was in a book club that read The Road by Cormac McCarthy.  There were definitely two factions: some of us loved the book and the rest hated the book.  We disagreed on almost everything, but at the end we realized what a good thorough job of discussion we had done.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 13, 2017, 07:46:01 PM
I see differences of opinions as a box of chocolates, there are many different kinds, yet all are delectable to look!  Some we may not like the taste of, but they come in the box and is just as appealing as the rest!!  Sort of like Forrest Gump's comment, "Mama always said life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get."

JoanK., 
Quote
Speaking of funerals: we've read two chapters, and there have been two deaths: both under tear wrenching circumstances. But it made me realize that in Jane Austen, written a few decades earlier, no one dies (except people we don't know, offstage).

If my memory serves me well, usually it's the mother who has passed on if one of the characters offstage are dead. 

Karen I also cried at the death of Miss Brown too, especially because she was not able to speak to her father before he died.  I felt it was a wise choice for Miss Jessie not to have her attend their father's funeral.  This scene is heart wrenching:

pg.  26  "Oh, Jessie!  Jessie!  How selfish I have been!  God forgive me for letting you sacrifice yourself for me as you did.  I have so love you__and yet I have thought only of myself, God forgive me!"  "Hush, love, hush!"  said Miss Jessie, sobbing.  "And my father! my dear, dear, father!  i will not complain now, if God will give me strength to be patient.  But, oh, Jessie!  tell my father how I longed and yearned to see him at last, and to ask his forgiveness.  He can never know now how I loved him__oh! if I might but tell him, befire I die;  what a life of sorrow his has been, and I have done so little to cheer him!"  A light came into Miss Jessie's face.  "Would it comfort you, dearest, to think that he does know__would it comfort you, love, to know that his cares, his sorrows__"  Her voice quivered, but she steadied it into calmness,__ "Mary!  he has gone before you to the place where theweary are at rest."  He knows now how you loved him."  A strange look, which was not distress, came over Miss Brown's face.  She did not speak for some time, but then we saw her lips form the words, rather than heard the sound__ "Father, mother, Harry, Aechy!"__then, as if it was a new idea throwing a filmy shadow over her darkening mind__ "But you will be alone__Jessie!"   Miss Jessie had been feeling this all during the silence, I think: for the tears rolled down her cheeks like rain, at these words: and she could not answer at first.  Then she put her hands together tight, and lifted them up, and said,__but not to us__"Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him."  In a few moments more, Miss Brown lay calm and still, never to sorrow or murmur more.

This I found to be excellent writing by Gaskell.  It drew out my emotions making me feel right there with these two sisters who love each other so greatly.  :'(   :'(
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 13, 2017, 07:52:52 PM
I think we are seeing something similar Karen and simply calling it different words - hanging on tighter is control - not letting go is control - having some control over your life if only tenuous - When change has moved in so you can no longer control life as the ladies of Crawford because of being widowed which means, less money also, the railroad made a difference in who is left in the village and those available to do necessary jobs etc. - since these ladies are powerless to control the economic forces of the times, they control or hang on to what they know - so they have elevated in importance all the minutia of civility.

I remember that as a kid - we may not have had the huge roasts and dinners my parents remembered or even the ever ending pots of Sauerbraten but what we had was always served at the table with the tablecloth and linen napkins even if it was only eggs goldenrod with mom's applesauce for desert. And so mom controlled our environment so that we did not live poor.  She made sure we joined the library before we started school and we had piano lessons from the nuns - she controlled how we looked by sewing our clothes after examining the construction of a high dollar dress - she made sure we had good tasting fresh food from her garden, and she preserved fruits, jams, pickles and veggies - she arranged that we attended free concerts and free days at the museums - then as my Grandmother said, soap is cheap - Grandma controlled dirt - it was banished from us and our home.  ;)

Have not read the funeral scene yet - tomorrow - been savoring this read and so I am slow. Still cannot find a definition for the Brunonian meal - so far I only find a meal of bear meat eaten at Brown university. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 13, 2017, 07:56:42 PM
Barb, you and I were posting at the same time so avoid my post since you said you have NOT read the funeral scene.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 13, 2017, 08:00:06 PM
 :)  ;)  ::)  :P  :D
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 14, 2017, 12:41:12 AM
How I envy the people who can make something out of what they read. Hidden meanings and such. I do have some difficulty seeing where the narrator, the author, is going with this tale. Much of it is memories of her younger days in such a community. Certainly it reflects the views of a younger person observing an older generation. In any case it's brilliant.

So much curious detail. And so many interesting comments from all of you. It promises to be a great discussion. In an early post, Rosemary talked about present day " posh people who have very little". How do they do that? (Goodwill?) There's no mention of a Goodwill in Cranford. Well, for a starter, they just deny poverty. And practice 'elegant economy'. And make a success of it.

I, too, have a lot fun shopping at the local Goodwill. It has a wonderful book corner. One recent acquisition, with the title In tearing haste, is a collection of letters between Deborah, Duchess of Devonshire and Patrick Leigh Fermor. Very entertaining and really dashed off.

Just what Miss Jenkyns was trying to do with her writing style in the Dr Johnson style.

'Epistolary writing she and her friends considered as her forte. Many a copy of many a letter have I seen written and corrected on the slate, before she "seized the half-hour just previous to post-time to assure" her friends of this or that; and  Dr Johnson was, as she said, her model in these compositions.'

Certainly not a model for our author.

Welcome, Ginny.  Naturally I thought of you when the talk turned to 'poultry connoisseurs. I've enjoyed your posts about your hens. Did you get some ideas from Pam Mitford? They are a lot fun. Dad loved raising chickens. Once a year he would start with a huge brood of chicks and watching them grow was enchanting. I was struck at times at how cruel they could be to each other.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 14, 2017, 07:48:09 AM
Hi Jonathan,
     I think we all bring to a book discussion our backgrounds.  I think those creep into each of our readings of the novel.  For Elizabeth Gaskell this was an autobiographical novel.  Her stories came from the village of Knutsford, which is Cranford; the city of Drumble is in reality Manchester and, you are right, her stories are based on her time as a child, living with her aunt.  The other issue is the novel was originally published as a series of episodes in a magazine, so I do not think she had the whole picture of Cranford as a novel as she wrote each episode.
     My love for this novel is the way in which it reflects the time and place in which it was written.  I feel as if I know life in a small village during the Industrial Revolution.  As Charles Dickens said of the French Revolution in Tale of two cities, it was a time much like our times differing only in degree.  I feel as if we could say the same thing about this revolution that we are experiencing, technological.
So unlike the French Revolution there will be no rioting or bloodshed in Cranford, but the attacks on the traditional values of the residents of Cranford are similar.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 14, 2017, 08:54:16 AM
Yes, it seems Gaskell was coming into her own writing and Dickens contracted her for the episodes in his periodical Household Words.  Dickens although he loved Gaskell's writing and thought it was perfect for the changing times, he also was constraining her writing by demanding to title her works and editing them to his own liking which he felt would best suit the readers.  Gaskell and he were both coming into a changing time and with it she was feeling the pressures from Dickens.  She came to realize she could have more liberty in writing novels rather than articles for Dickens.  The relationship became strained with the two of them voicing their opinions to other friends.  I found this article that is very informative, no spoilers for Cranford.  It gives a very good account of the beginning and end of Gaskell and Dickens relationship and mindset during the time of her writing for him and after, which began in 1850 and lasted til 1865.  I especially like how Dickens was attracted to Gaskell's work because she could write to the everyday middle class people drawing on their emotions and the changes happening at the time, which we have already gotten a glimpse of in just these first two chapters.

http://www.gaskell.jp/ronshu/15/15_09-32SHELSTON.pdf 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: CallieOK on January 14, 2017, 12:32:56 PM
Every time I come into this discussion,  I'm fascinated by the observations and background links being provided for this book.

Since I have absolutely no background in "seeking the deeper meaning" of novels,  it had never occurred to me that "Cranford" was anything more than a pleasant story set in a different time.  I was never exposed to Dickens' work  as an expression of the times in which he lived - and did not enjoy reading what I saw as depressing stories about down-trodden people.

Many thanks to each of you who are helping me see the connection with an historical era in English history.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 14, 2017, 02:03:29 PM
Barb - doesn't the 'Brunonian meal' just mean the meal of the Browns? Have I missed something?

Jonathan - so glad you are another charity shop fan!  I am surprised when I go to Paris and there are no charity shops - it seems it is not a French thing. And I don't think you need to worry about other people being better at finding 'hidden meanings' in books - I don't think Mrs Gaskell intended her writing to be 'difficult'. When I was at college and taking the English Tripos, it drove me mad (so much so that I changed subject) when we had to spend weeks dissecting a few lines by one author - it is much more fun here where everyone just says what they think and no-one worries about being 'clever' and outsmarting people. Anything I say about Cranford is completely off the top of my head (as we say here) - I have no prior knowledge, I just make it up!

As as our wonderful facilitator Mkaren says, Mrs Gaskell wrote the chapters as as series of sketches, she had no big plan.

Having been forced through the Industrial Revolution in school history lessons (the only thing that was even more boring was the wretched Agricultural Revolution), it had no real meaning for me - it was just a series of dates and inventions that had to be learned off by heart to pass the evil GCE exams. Reading novels like this makes it come alive; not everyone was running about inventing Stephenson's Rocket or the Spinning Jenny (whatever that was - see what I mean? we just learned it by rote), most middle class ladies were just going about their village business, doing the small things that make up life for most of us. Fascinating.

Bellamarie - I'm afraid I did not cry at Miss Brown's deathbed scene, nor her funeral! I found the former very melodramatic and Dickensian - which is not to say I didn't enjoy it, but I was very far from tears. Must be too much English cynicism - as my daughter says, disparagingly, 'you only ever cry about animals.'  :)

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 14, 2017, 04:55:08 PM
Rosemary, your English cynicism stops you from reacting to emotional moments where everyone knows Italians cry at everything, weddings, funerals, baptisms, Confirmations, births, graduations, our child going off to school, animals, rainbows, etc., etc.  We are an emotional mess!!  :)

The Goodwill shops in my town are in fairly downtrodden areas that are not exactly safe to venture into so maybe that has something to do with people who live here not going to them.  Now we do have resale shops in safer areas I love to wander around in.  Rosemary, I'm with you, I don't think Gaskell has any hidden agendas, she was a pretty simple writer of human feelings and happenings.  I laughed and cried reading Wives and Daughters. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 14, 2017, 05:01:37 PM
Thanks Rosemary - maybe so - I just did not see Brown in the word 'Brunonian' but it sure would fit since it is the closest to anything I have found on the web.

As to the unexamined reading -  ;) sounds a bit like some folks who live as Sororities said, "The unexamined life" which he goes on to finish the sentence with "is not worth living" - ah so - some of us are full of curiosity and every observation seems to actually require we ask 'why' and others just get on with it...

As to reading with an eye to the various metaphors, analogies, similes, allusions etc. going beyond the literal can get us to the theme that makes an author and a book a classic - smile - you've got all kinds of readers in this discussion.  :)

For that matter, the latest philosophical point of view is that there is no such thing as change - We simply alter some of our behavior because, "Propositional" attitudes are wired into us, some before birth and others within the first days and weeks of birth as various parts of our body become operational only with oxygen, like our eyes that are hot wired into our brain - suggesting the human pool has various skills because of our propositional attitudes therefore, we each look for and make sense out of what we see based on our individual programming. Talk about a case for individuality - I've been bowled over reading about this - With that I am ready to start seeing various author's works re-examined in total to find the common underlying thread.

As to Cranford - I love Elizabeth's metaphors and can see telling the story of our lives with tongue and cheek wit - 'Wit' does not translate to mean-tempered - it is defined as an easy aptitude for using words and ideas in a quick and inventive way to create humor. I do not know about you but I sure look at the incongruities in my life with humor and get a kick out of remembering how hard I worked at doing the 'right' thing which is what I think we are relating to in this story.

To just talk about the behavior is like gossip - who did what, when, and did you approve - oh my - not sure a story is intended for us to play judge and jury however, to see the behavior associated with something deeper - then we are exposed to lifestyles beyond our associates and contemporaries which allows us to explore our compassion and understanding for other " ;) propositional attitudes".

Found this quote yesterday and just love it - seems to fit after you shared Karen that Crawford is biographical.

"We do not, after all, simply have experience; we are entrusted with it. We must do something–make something–with it. A story, we sense is the only possible habitation for the burden of our witnessing.” by Patricia Hampl
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 14, 2017, 05:10:04 PM
CALLIE: that's what I love about these discussions, too. Every one of us sees the book through our own lens, and so differently.

To me it's very exciting to think about the major changes humans have lived through. We talked about another one in our last discussion of an Alaskan myth: the change from being nomads, wandering around, to living in settled communities, where we could store food for the winter.

Now, we're talking about the latest one: the change to an industrial society, and how it felt to be an old person going through that. As old people, we all look at our grandchildren and shake our heads: a different world from ours, with the texting and constant communication. Imagine if we were Seniors living in Gaskell's time: with everything changing very, very fast. Of course they are clinging to what they can control. I hadn't thought of it that way, but it's exactly right.

Are we living through another major transformation? The sociologists think so: they call this "Post-Industrial society." But in the middle of it, we can't yet see what it looks like.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 14, 2017, 05:47:13 PM
Thank you, CallieinOK for dropping in.  I think Gaskell would be very pleased that you find Cranford a nice story and happy for you to read it as just that.  I think  I read Cranford in a class where I Dickens, George Elliot and Thomas Hardy.  I was so relieved now to be deluged with the filth and the disease of the urban industrial cities that I just read it for the story; in the process I fell in love with it.  Please read on with us.
Barbara, I love this quotation.
"We do not, after all, simply have experience; we are entrusted with it. We must do something–make something–with it. A story, we sense is the only possible habitation for the burden of our witnessing.” by Patricia Hampl.
 I think that is why I wake up some mornings and feel driven to write down my memories.  Thank God for journals.  I keep wrestling with whether I should leave them behind or burn them.
Joan- I remember when computers came to the high school.  What anger and anxiety they produced.  I was still doing my calculations with pencil and paper.  Or when my father tried to call the cable company and came face to face with an answering system.  He swore he would never use the phone again.  I always struggle with the concept that this is progress because the implication is that progress is good.
Our next episode arrives on Monday.  We might want to talk a bit about how the installments affect too novel, if at all.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: CallieOK on January 14, 2017, 06:50:15 PM
Mkaren,  oh, I intend to stay with you!   I have the e-book on my Tablet and am keeping it nearby when I come into this discussion on my pc so I can look up the things that are mentioned.  That usually leads to an "Aha!" moment.  :)   

Bellamarie,  I'm smiling at your comparison of your Italian emotions with those of Rosemary.   I'm half German and half Scots-Irish so "stoic" could be my middle name!  Right now, one of my good friends is more emotionally distraught over the death of a casual friend she's known fewer than 5 years than I was at the recent death of a close friend I'd known since we were five.

Looking forward to next week's discussion.


Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 14, 2017, 08:10:38 PM
How absolutely apropos that the difference should be noted over reaction to the death of Miss Brown - love it - just before Gaskell we had Austen as all the rage for readers and she says it in, Sense and Sensibility 

After Willoughby’s ‘rejection’ Elinor, aroused by Marianne’s ‘agitation and sobs’, watches her with silent anxiety’. It is Marianne who suffers when Marianne receives a letter. Elinor, who sees it must come from Willoughby, ‘felt immediately such a sickness at heart as made her hardly able to hold up her head’.  Elinor, entering their room, sees her sister stretched on the bed, ‘almost choked by grief’.  Elinor sits beside her, kisses her hand ‘and then gave way to a burst of tears, which at first was scarcely less violent than Marianne’s. The pain of affliction cannot be confined to the one who first feels it.

For a while Marianne is unable to speak, she puts the letters in to Elinor’s hand ‘and then covering her face with her handkerchief, almost screamed with agony’. Despite her acute sensibility, Marianne’s scream is muffled, because ‘she knew that such grief, shocking as it was to witness, must have its course’, Elinor ‘watched by her till the excess of suffering had somewhat spent itself’. Elinor is aware of the quasi-independent life of feelings and aware, too, that they must be allowed to take their course before they abate.

The same format of the victim, Miss Browns, in this case rather than the emotions of grief it is the emotions expressed by some in pain, crossness because of illness. Rather than the betrayal of a Willoughby and her sister sitting with her, rather though, instead of witnessing tears and screams of grief she is sitting through half a night of scolding and she also, like Elinor, shows the affects by not being her bright and cheerful self - she even scolds herself for breaking into tears which is as her sister, who would scold in reaction to her pain. 

Wondered what was a 'carter' and found this great web site of the English Occupations during the Victorian Era.  http://www.worldthroughthelens.com/family-history/old-occupations.php
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 15, 2017, 01:35:24 AM
Here is another tidbit - Giovanni Antonio Galignani (1757–1821) was an Italian newspaper publisher born at Brescia. After living some time in London, he moved to Paris, where in 1800 he started an English library, and in 1808 a monthly publication, the Repertory of English Literature. In 1814 he began to publish the Galignani's Messenger, a daily paper printed in English.

After his death in 1821, (before Cranford was written) his two sons, continued publishing the paper. Under their management it enjoyed a high reputation for its global coverage and emphasis on progressive news. Its stated policy was to promote goodwill between England and France.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 15, 2017, 09:04:49 AM
My copy of Cranford has footnotes in the back explaining some of the terms.  It defines Amazons briefly, and leg-of-mutton sleeves.  The point of the red silk umbrella is that cotton umbrellas had replaced silk in the 1840s.  And it explains "elegant economy": "The phrase is used by Eliza Acton in her famous Modern Cookery (1845) which has a recipe for 'The Elegant Economist's Pudding'.  It seems to have become a joke for Gaskell."

Eliza Acton's cookbook was a groundbreaking change in how cookbooks were written, giving much more complete instructions and lists of ingredients than previous books, widely used, like The Joy of Cooking for our generation.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 15, 2017, 09:07:46 AM
My favorite quote from this section is "deciding all questions of literature and politics without troubling themselves with unnecessary reasons or arguments".
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 15, 2017, 11:26:51 AM
PatH.,  That is interesting about Eliza's cookbook giving much more complete instructions and list of ingredients.  I've been watching the American Bake Off and it always baffled the bakers on not having the complete recipe to follow.  It was guess work for them.  Nothing more frustrating than having a recipe without complete instructions and ingredients.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 15, 2017, 12:21:42 PM
Here's a description:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Cookery_for_Private_Families (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Cookery_for_Private_Families)

I read cookbooks as a hobby, so I had heard of Acton from one of Elizabeth David's books (David is an English writer who  loves old cookbooks and writes so evocatively about food you can taste it as you read).  She also has some of the old recipes, and they are often pretty sketchy.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 15, 2017, 01:31:47 PM
Pat- My favorite quote from this section is "deciding all questions of literature and politics without troubling themselves with unnecessary reasons or arguments".. I was struck by that quote as well.  That is a comment that can be made today.  The prevailing reason to do something is "because I said so."  I wonder what would have happened if someone had asked Miss Jenkins for instance why those rules for calling on someone exist?  Or why should we refrain from talking about our financial situation?  I do know from reading Hard Times by Dickens that there was a division in those who were teaching between teaching by having children memorize what you said and repeating it back, whether there was understanding at all.  (I thing of the way I learned my catechism when I was a little girl.  I remember I asked Sister Imelda what adultery was?  It caused great chaos.). Or whether teachers should teach as Socrates did by continually asking questions and not providing them with responses , but requiring them to think. The student still needed to know facts but they were used to back up what you were saying.  It is Interesting that the Victorians were having the same conflicts that the city fathers of Athens had with Socrates.  Go to any teachers meeting today.  The discussion goes on.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 15, 2017, 02:14:57 PM
The 'tastiest' cookbook, I've heard, was written by Dumas, the great French storyteller. I've been looking for it for years. Do you have it, Pat?

I was mistaken. EG, our author, really did see her Cranford ladies as moral and social Amazons, with their aristocratic  assurance and esprit de corps. Their moral fortitude and gentility. And for good measure she also brings in the tough Spartans for comparison.

Aren't the national characteristics interesting. The Spartan smile. The Italian tears. The stiff English upper lip. One thing is for sure. The tears one can trust.

Another trivia. What does the Cranford aristocrat scorn?
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 15, 2017, 02:56:19 PM
There is a nice little history of measuring in "The Science of Good Cooking" by Cook's Illustrated - measuring devices are only a little over 100 years old - their manufacture started in the very late nineteenth century - Cooks used their own cups and spoons for measuring so that if a recipe said 2 cups of flour, the amount of flour would be different in say Martha Washington's kitchen versus Thomas Jefferson's kitchen -

One difference was that cooking was a high level skill, not something you just picked up a book and did - you learned just as a carpenter or a seamstress from a mentor by watching and participating - often the mentor was your mother therefore, you learned early, proportions, the smell, the look, using your hands. Often there was a drinking cup, large and small spoon reserved in each kitchen for baking. Not only was the skill level high but there was not a wide variety of recipes. Cooking was repetitive and depended on local and seasonal produce.

The first cookbook to call for standardized measuring cups and spoons was the 1896 Fannie Farmer Boston Cooking-School Cookbook.  Fannie Farmer believed in science however, what was not taken into consideration is how the cup is filled - the dip and sweep method versus, spooning the dry ingredient into the measuring cup with a large spoon or small scoop which aerates the flour or other ingredient so that the topped and evened cup holds about 20% less. Just as a forceful dip holds more than a gentle dip that may even be shaken as it leaves the sack of flour. That is why a good cookbook gives measurements in weight.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 15, 2017, 02:57:02 PM
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. 
We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.



January Book Club Online

Cranford

by Elizabeth Gaskell
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/cranford/cranfordcvr.jpg)
Published in 1853, Cranford is the story of a town that is
"in the possession of the Amazons."

Some delightful older women are battling to preserve the way of life and
the social structure in Cranford in the face of the "progress"
brought by the Industrial Revolution. 

Join us we read this autobiographical novel and get to know
the ladies of Cranford.

Discussion Schedule

Based on the episodes as they were published in Household Words.
(Depending how comfortable we are with the rate of reading and discussion, we can be flexible with the dates.)

  • January 2-11. Pre-discussion of the Victorian period, the author, and any questions you may have about the discussion process.
  • January 11- 15 Episode 1 Our Society at Cranford - Chapters 1-2
  • January 16-19  Episode 2 A Love Affair at Cranford - Chapters 3-4
  • January 20-23  Episode 3 Memory at Cranford - Chapters 5-6
  • January 24-27  Episode 4 Visiting at Cranford - Chapters 7-8
  • January 28-31  Episode 5 The Great Cranford Panic - Chapters 9-11
  • February 1-4    Episode 6 Stopped Payment at Cranford - Chapters 12-13
  • February 5-9    Episode 7 Friends in Need at Cranford - Chapter 14
  • February 10-13 Episode 8 A Happy Return to Cranford - Chapters 15-16
  • February 14      Final Thoughts. Happy Valentines Day

Some Topics to Focus on As You Read
  • The structure of society
  • The place of women in society
  • The narrator
  • The men in Cranford
  • Relationships among women
  • Changes that come to Cranford and attitudes about those changes

Relevant Links
  • Cranford (http://gutenberg.org) Gutenberg online for free.
  • Victorian Web (http://victorianweb.org)  This amazing link is for all things Victorian,  begun in 1987 with new information added each year.

Discussion Leader: mkaren557 (tommybrady26@yahoo.com)
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 15, 2017, 04:01:24 PM
I was just about to say, Barb, here in the UK we really struggle with American measurements for baking. I do have a conversion chart, but it all seems so vague compared to pounds and ounces or grams and kilos.

My mother may not be Victorian but we definitely had certain spoons (usually ones that had become to old for the table) for cooking, and certain knives. And now I do it too - I have a large table knife that I use to make scones, and a particular coffee spoon that I always use to measure baking powder. Works for me. I don't much like those fashionable cookery books (Jamie Oliver is a prime culprit) who like to say 'grab a handful of this, add a few lugs of that' - it may be OK for a celebrity chef, but baking does not work like that. I don't think he makes many cakes. Mary Berry would never cook in this cavalier fashion!

I recall reading somewhere that, whilst we all think of Mrs Beeton as the first person to produce a cookery book, and the person to whom all Victorian cooks turned for instruction, Eliza Acton's book was in fact much more commonly used.

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 15, 2017, 04:48:33 PM
Rosemary years ago I found and have a converted measuring cup made of aluminum - on one side are the American Measurements and on the other the British and on the third side are metric measurements - one of my trips I came back with a cookbook and tried various sweets but our flour and butter is different so I never could match the taste as I remembered it.

My mom had a special china cup reserved and a certain table spoon - I can still hear her in my head as she dithered over how to measure a teaspoon - our teaspoons were deep and held nearly as much as a tablespoon -  trying to measure a third of a table spoon was almost impossible - and then the cup broke - I think either my sister or I dropped it - oh oh oh - mom's world had come to an end - she had no idea how different another cup - she was beside herself - even grandma got in on the event attempting to come to some solution - in spite of her lack of equipment as we know it today she baked wonderful birthday cakes and dozens of various cookies for Christmas - the goal was to fill a table cloth lined bushel basked and most years she did it...

As to our story - now I must find some of Johnson's letters to see what she thought was worthy reading - love it...
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 15, 2017, 05:09:10 PM
Wow - his letters - read the first on to his wife - tender in all its eighteenth century formality

https://archive.org/details/lettersjohnson01hilluoft
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 15, 2017, 05:37:55 PM
Karen:
Quote
I remember I asked Sister Imelda what adultery was?  It caused great chaos.

I never asked because I thought I knew.  I thought it meant watering the milk. ::)

Jonathan, I've never seen Dumas' cookbook, though I've seen him quoted.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 15, 2017, 06:00:59 PM
Thank you all for some great Sunday evening conversation.  I loved the discussions about cookbooks and cooking. I learned a lot about which book is the best and how complicated conversions are .  Rosemary. is Great Britain on a different system than the metric system?

That definition of adultery would have satisfied me.  Do you know how you came up with that?  I knew that there was something about adultery and coveting wives that made adults laugh when I asked.  I think I merged the two and said that adultery was when you wanted someone else wife.I was close.

Thank You, Barbara, for posting the link to Dr. Johnson's letters.

 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 15, 2017, 06:11:52 PM
Quote
That definition of adultery would have satisfied me.  Do you know how you came up with that?
I knew the word adulteration and assumed it was the same thing.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 15, 2017, 06:41:39 PM
The commandment that I learned said thou shalt not covet they neighbor's wife - no explanation needed - when we asked about covet it was explained as wanting something that belonged to someone else - of course no one questioned that a wife 'belonged' to her husband  ;) - I am trying to remember the first time I heard the word adultery. I think I was an adult and even then cannot remember - look at all I missed but then the daughter of the lady next door who was one of my mom's best friends dated the local parish priest and no one said the word adultery - so I guess we either lived in an area of loose morals or accepted good people do things or adults were too busy watching the cherries, pears and apples for the picking stage so they could make jam as more important  ;)
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 15, 2017, 08:09:00 PM
I am here to say that I think we did a great job on the first episode.  Tomorrow love comes to Cranford.  We will get to know all the characters better.  From now on we will be jumping around time wise.  I can't leave Episode 1 without mentioning Miss Betty Barker and the Alderney cow.  What a great small town story!  True or not, I can imagine its being passed on from generation to generation.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 16, 2017, 12:21:46 AM
My favorite quote in this section is:  "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him'."  Job 13:15
I love how Miss Jessie in the most tragic of times turned to her faith.

There were a few parts in these two chapters that either had me stumped and/or laughing out loud such as:

pg. 6  that you are never to stay longer than a quarter of an hour."  "But am  I to look at my watch?  How am I to find out when a quarter of an hour has passed?"  'You must keep thinking about the time, my dear, and not allow yourself to forget it in conversation.'

When I read this it made me think of the Fairy Godmother speaking to Cinderella, about leaving at the stroke of midnight.   :)

We kept ourselves to short sentences and small talk, and we were punctual to our time.

Do you suppose this prevented them from gossiping, which helped them remain close friends?  Although Miss Jenkyns did manage to say the snide remark about Miss Jessie's dimples, but came to regret it.

pg. 7 This totally cracked me up....When Mrs. Forrester was being pretentious using a little charity-school maiden:

who now state in sate, pretending not to know what cakes were sent up; though she knew, and we knew, and she knew that we knew, and we knew that she knew that we knew, she had been busy all the morning making tea-bread and sponge-cakes.

This stumped me until reading the footnote:

pg. 14 The literary disagreement between Miss Jenkyns and Captain Brown,

"I consider it vulgar, and below the dignity of literature, to publish in numbers."  'How was the "Rambler" published ma'am?  asked Captain Brown, in a low voice; which I think Miss Jenkyns could not have heard.

Footnote 21.  consider it vulgar...in numbers;  Because of the cheapness of individual numbers, such publishing in parts was a huge popular success.  The fifteenth number of Pickwick Papers sold 40,000 copies.  This became a standard way of publishing novels, as did serialization in periodicals.  The answer to Captain Brown's next comment is: in parts.  The Rambler was a series of essays, all but five by Johnson, published in 208 numbers twice weekly. 1750-52.  It went through ten printings in his lifetime. 

Another laugh out loud yet puzzling part in this section is when the narrator has returned to Cranford telling us:

pg. 20 The greatest event was, that Miss Jenkyns had purchased a new carpet for the drawing-room.  Oh the busy work Miss Matty and I had in chasing the sunbeams, as they fell in an afternoon right down on this carpet through the blindless window!  We spread newspapers over the places, and sat down to our book or our work, and, lo! in quarter of an hour the sun had moved, and was blazing away on a fresh spot; and down again we went on our knees to alter the position of then newspapers.  We were very busy, too, one whole morning before Miss Jenkyns gave her party, in following her directions, and in cutting out and stitching together pieces of newspaper, so as to form little paths to every chair, set for the expected visitors, lest their shoes might dirty or defile the purity of the carpet.  Do you make paper paths for every guest to walk upon in London?

Rosemary, maybe you can answer this question for us.

I was laughing out loud imagining them chasing the sunbeams. What is that song about chasing sunbeams? 

One last laugh out loud for me was the Alderney cow Miss Betty Barker looked upon as a daughter.

pg. 10  Captain Brown's decided, "Get her a flannel waistcoat and flannel drawers, ma'am, if you wish to keep her alive.  But my advice is, kill the poor creature at once."





Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 16, 2017, 12:50:14 AM
Karen and PatH.,  I cracked up at your comments about asking a nun about adultery and covet.  I teach third grade CCD (religion) class and the night I had to teach about the sacraments knowing the sanctity of marriage would come up, I just knew I was going to get hit with a question from one of my students about divorce.  Sure enough not even minutes into the lesson a boy raised his hand and asks, "If when you get married the two become one, then what happens when they get a divorce like my parents?"  Oh the dreaded topic!  And yes, the commandment lesson brought up the covet and adultery questions.  In this day and age there are NO shy students.  They are loaded with the give me the scoop and give it to me now!!  Always ready and willing to challenge the teacher.  Ughhh.... that is where I fully depend on the Holy Spirit to jump in.  :)
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 16, 2017, 01:05:37 AM
Oh Yes, the story of the cow was a laugh out loud read wasn't it - slap stick at its best -

And we are in luck - here are links to the Johnson essays in the Rambler by date - they are all here in three links.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080919092243/http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/Joh1Ram.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20080709091410/http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/Joh4All.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20080606030313/http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/Joh4Ram.html


And here is a link to all his essays - from the Rambler - the Adventurer - and the Idler

http://www.johnsonessays.com/category/the-rambler/
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 16, 2017, 09:43:45 AM
When I grew up the standard measures for baking were pounds and ounces. A pound is, I think, about 500g, and there are 16 ounces in a pound. My weighing scales still have weights for 2lb, 1lb, 8oz, 4oz, 2oz, 1oz, 1/2oz and 1/4oz, and that is the system I still use. Many of our cookery books are still published with these weights, even if they also publish the metric ones.

My children were all taught the metric system at school. My elder daughter is happy to use either, but the younger one uses this as an excuse not to do any baking - 'I don't understand your old books'. Some cookery books do only show metric weights - notably those of Nigel Slater (whom I love) and Nigella Lawson (a bit lukewarm about her...)

It's worth noting, too, that the UK pint measure is not the same as the US one. Ours has 20 fl oz and I think yours only has 16.

As for putting paper on the carpet to stop the sun fading it - well, I've never seen that done, but I do know someone who even today has her entire staircarpet covered in plastic to stop anyone spoiling it.  Hard floors - wood or lino - are much more popular here now, but I must say I do like a nice cosy carpet in the sitting room (even if my cats have shredded mine).

My grandmother was also very protective about any item of new furniture - I suppose it came from having so little and having to scrimp and save to buy anything. As was the custom in the early part of the last century, my mother and her siblings were never allowed in the sitting room. There were 5 of them and 2 parents living in a very small council house, but despite this the 'front room' had to be kept for 'special' and was only used on high days and holidays, or if someone that they deemed 'above' them - eg the doctor - came to see them. (The children were expected to be out in the street.) This view of the sitting room continued right through my childhood, but only at my grandmother's house - in our own house we used the sitting room every day (it was the only place in the entire freezing house that there was a fire...)

I too loved the bit about the cow and her jacket. Eccentricity at its harmless best. I do not, however, favour the recent fashion for putting your dog - usually a 'toy' breed - in a pink or blue sweater and generally dressing it up like a child.

As for adultery, I really don't think I knew what it meant till I left home. I do remember my Family Law lecturer banging on about 'Adultery being a symptom not a cause' of matrimonial failure. She was very happily married - I am not sure that her description was a fair one for everyone, but that's for another discussion.

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 16, 2017, 11:39:30 AM
Thank you, Rosemary for clearing up my confusion about the measurement situation.  Someone told me with the metric system that we get into trouble when we try to do conversions on everything.  That we need to think in liters, kilometers.  If I am on a trip in Canada, for instant I do that by the end of the trip. 

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 16, 2017, 11:57:17 AM
Hmmm - I always convert! Most of our older cookery books have conversion charts at the front, and all they say is that you should stick to one thing or the other, ie don't put in 500g of flour and 4oz of butter, measure them all with the same system.

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 16, 2017, 01:01:11 PM
The narrator is back after a passage of time.  It seems that she had no thinking that she would be going back to stay for any length of time.  Yet both Miss Pole summon her.  Now, she not only is a narrator but also a character in the novel.  What impact does that have on the narration.  Is she a reliable narrator?  Off we go on installment 2.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 16, 2017, 01:02:19 PM
Such a nasty day here - rainy and grey - holiday so there are no school sounds - should do some grocery shopping but cannot make it past staring out the window - trying to imagine a day like this in Cranford and what the ladies would do with themselves - no way they could put on some music - they had to lift up themselves...
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 16, 2017, 01:24:13 PM
Rosemary, that makes logical sense to stay with the same measuring system when using a recipe.

I have to laugh about the protecting the furniture.  My mother did that years ago.  I actually left the covers over my lamp shades back in the 70's but stopped many years ago.  Now, for the dog sweaters I have to admit my sweet little Shitzu has not only a variety of sweaters to dress up for the holidays, but when the Olympics were on this summer he got a new red, white and blue USA jersey!  He also has a yellow slicker raincoat, and a winter coat.  I did order him some black dog boots but they would not stay on.  He is indeed my precious baby.  He is spoiled rotten and knows it!  When I take his sweater off he shivers.  I do keep him trimmed because their type of hair mattes easily.  When he goes for his walk around the block he struts like a fashionista!!  :)

One more thing I wanted to mention before going on to the next chapters is:

pg. 22  Jenny came back with a white face of terror,  "Oh, ma'am!  oh, Miss Jenkyns, ma'am!  Captain Brown is killed by them nasty cruel railroads!"  and she burst into tears.

In my footnotes it says:  them nasty cruel railroads.... Railways had got off to a bad start when the former President of the Board of Trade, William Huskisson, was killed by a locomotive at the opening of the Liverpool to Manchester railway line in 1830.  In remoter districts they were regarded as dangerous and destructive, even in the 1840s when 'railway mania' took hold.  Dickens writes of how their construction devastates the landscape in Dombey and Son (1848), in which the villainous Carter is killed by a train.

I have always feared trains since my Daddy was killed by one in 1955.  He and his coworkers who worked for the railroad were on their way to work early in the morning.  They were in a pick up truck that had benches in the back where nine of the men sat, and three men were in the front cab.  A train struck the truck and all nine men in the back were killed, the three in the cab were injured severely.  I was only two years old when this happened, so I never got the chance to really even know my Daddy.  This accident left my mother a widow with seven small children.  I have never really known the details of the accident. My mother and all seven of us siblings picture was in the newspaper with numerous articles.   I am the little one in the back row on the left side next to my mother. 
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/10633269_10207354511034439_7754057826735569209_o.jpg?oh=b864149c5b05347ffe275f4aed22e5ff&oe=58D5DE5D)
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 16, 2017, 01:25:10 PM
Hi Barb,

We have been fortunate to have a much better day today, with blue skies and warmer temps than we have had for some time.

I wonder if the ladies of Cranford would have been much affected by the weather, as they probably spent a good deal of time indoors anyway (is that right Mkaren?)  But then Jane Eyre starts with 'There was no possibility of a walk that day' (or something like that) so maybe a walk was the highlight of their day?

I have to admit that i quite enjoy wet or snowy days if I don't have to go out - but it's easy to say that when one can go out most days, and can even go out on those days if one wants to.

I agree about the lack of school sounds - if I am indoors I do like to hear 'normal' life going along outside - Sundays can be depressing. It reminds me of the very few times I was ill in bed as a child - it always seemed so odd to hear other children coming home from school, and the day passing without you being a part of it.

Are we on the next two chapters now?

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 16, 2017, 01:33:59 PM
I love snowy, rainy inside days!  I am constantly going here and there and when the weather gives me reason to stay in I snuggle up and enjoy whatever I enjoy doing such as read, knit, crochet, watch tv., or write!  You noticed I did not include bake.  My hubby has taken over my kitchen since retirement and thinks he owns it.  I'm not a Cranford Amazon..... I love having him around!!

Yes, Rosemary we are now beginning:  January 16-19  Episode 2 A Love Affair at Cranford - Chapters 3-4

Can't wait to see what the ladies are up to next!
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 16, 2017, 01:35:49 PM
Yes, we are now on Chapters 3-4, unless you have more to say on the last section.

Bella, that is an awful story about the death of your father.  Did your mother raise you all by herself?  Thank you for sharing the photo from the paper. 

Barbara, I wonder if the ladies used the heat and candles on cold, damp, dark days?
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 16, 2017, 01:36:02 PM
Oh my Bellamarie, what a tragic thing to happen, I am so sorry. My father also died young, but from illness rather than injury. How did your mother cope? It's lovely that you've been able to keep that cutting all these years.

It's interesting how attitudes to railways have changed. We now see them as much 'cleaner' than cars, less polluting and generally a lot safer, but our problem is that since some government or other privatised them they have been woefully starved of cash by companies that are only interested in paying out big dividends to keep their shareholders happy. Our East Coast line (which runs from the north of Scotland to London) used to be great, but now it belongs to Virgin and is awful. My own mother travelled (with a very expensive first class ticket) to Aviemore from London at Christmas, and had no heating all the way there and back - she was frozen. There were also problems with food, the lavatories, etc. In cities - especially in London - commuters pay very high prices for tickets and end up never getting a seat and constantly having their trains cancelled. It's a shame as it used to be a wonderful transport system.

You'll have to excuse my opinionated statements about dogs and their wardrobes! I'm sure yours is very cute! - I am just used to huge retrievers and other gun dogs. And I have to own up to the fact that when we had a spaniel my daughter used to put a towel round his head and call him Yoda. He loved it. We're all as daft as one another :-)

Rosemary

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 16, 2017, 01:44:30 PM
Re the narrator, i am not sure how we can tell if she is reliable. I'm afraid I still find her a bit annoying and smug! I am re-reading those two chapters so I will try to think about how her involvement affects the narrative. She does get quite excited when she thinks Miss Matty has a chance with her old beau. I can believe that a father of those times would try to stop a marriage if he didn't think the groom was good enough, but how awful to have your sister intervening too.

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: CallieOK on January 16, 2017, 04:36:01 PM
Another question about the narrator:   There have been three questions posed to "someone" in London:

..Have you any red silk umbrellas in London?

...Do you ever see cows dressed in grey flannel in London?

....Do you make paper paths for every guest to walk upon in London?

Who is this person "in London"?
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 16, 2017, 04:40:40 PM
I'm trying to imagine the author perplexed by the question, do my readers find me reliable, when she is so obviously writing in an impressionistic style. Wouldn't she sooner be trying to stimulate our imaginations? And succeeding very well.

As for lamentable weather, she wouldn't have the courage after what Dickens conjured up in Bleak House.

I would dearly like to know how to measure a pinch of something,salt, for example. I argued in the kitchen last night over that with my son. He would have it as much as one can pick up with two fingers, but I'm convinced it's 1/8 of a teaspoon, or half of that. I lost my darling wife last year and I miss her nowhere more than in the kitchen.

About the Alderney cow. A reliability note creeps into this little story, when the author has Captain Brown 'startled one day when he found his advice so highly esteemed as to make some counsel which he had given in jest to be taken in sober, serious earnest.'

It's the Cranford ladies that I find unreliable.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 16, 2017, 05:22:57 PM
I thought all these London questions were rhetorical jokes - ie 'look at how smart Cranford ladies are, they even cover up their carpets - I bet you don't do that in London, no matter how much more stylish you think you are'.

Jonathan,  I am so sorry about the loss of your wife. I did think a 'pinch' of salt meant just that - whatever you could pinch - but I'm happy to be corrected, it could well be a set amount. This is what it says on the Nigella Lawson website:

'There are a variety of opinions as to the specific quantity for a pinch of salt and either 1/16 or 1/8 teaspoon (0.3 or 0.6 ml) seem to be the most commonly quoted. However as most people do not have spoons this small the amount of salt that you can pick up between your forefinger and thumb would be fine as a measuremant of a pinch of salt.'

How do you find the ladies unreliable?

It's after 10pm here in the UK so I'm off to bed and will read the rest of tonight's discussion in the morning. Keep going folks!

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 16, 2017, 07:08:26 PM
How interesting about the cookbooks. JONATHAN: I would love to see Dumas' cookbook as well.

When you're interested in something, it crops up everywhere. Yesterday, PBS started a series "VICTORIA." did anyone else watch it? It started with her ascension to the throne, and her attempts to establish  herself as a monarch, not a foolish "girl" to be manipulated by the men around her.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: nlhome on January 16, 2017, 10:39:11 PM
I watched my grandmother baking, and her pinch was literally that, what she pinched between two fingers when she was adding salt or other spices. Her recipes that she wrote out use "pinch." Some referred to "handful" of flour. I never had the courage to cook like that, but my husband makes the best pie crust and doesn't measure the water (I still remember my mother's eyes when she watched him put the mixing bowl under a running faucet!).

I enjoy the narrator; at times I think she's laughing a bit at her Cranford friends, like the moving of newspapers around the carpet to keep it from fading. But other times she seems very concerned about them.  I think she's got a good eye for the idiosyncrasies of Cranford's folk.

Today was a quiet day here, with ice coating everything so that we pretty much needed to stay inside, no walk , something I usually do.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 17, 2017, 09:18:51 AM
I apologize for being absent much of yesterday.  Usually I float through relaxed days, but it was one thing after another.  I will be more attentive today.  Thank you Rosemary, Calliein, Jonathan and Nilhome for your observations and questions.
My questions about the narrator and her reliability were because it is difficult when you are part of the story you are telling to be objective and fair.  That being said, if you see nothing here,don't worry. 
     ..Have you any red silk umbrellas in London?

...Do you ever see cows dressed in grey flannel in London?

....Do you make paper paths for every guest to walk upon in London?


Calliein, I think that Rosemary gave a good answer to your question.  I would add that the author knows that most of her readers are in London.

Jonathan
It's the Cranford ladies that I find unreliable.  In what sense do you see them as unreliable? 

nlhome-- It used to drive me crazy when my mother would give me a recipe and use indefinite measures for ingredients.  Now, I listen to myself doing the same thing.

Thanks for the tip about Victoria on PBS, Joan.  I need to record it. 

Today is beautiful on the Gulf Coast.  The nicest part of these winter days is the low humidity.  I can even turn off the air conditioning.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 17, 2017, 11:14:09 AM
awww - how faithful her poor heart had been in its sorrow and its silence 

It reminds me of many today who plug on with sorrow in silence – I’m seeing many a homeless person that has shut their hearts, faithful to the sorrow and silence of what is no more.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 17, 2017, 11:29:52 AM
JoanK., Thank you for reminding us of the PBS Victoria.  I had posted in the library section earlier and completely forgot about when it was to preview.  For anyone who missed the first episode here is a link to watch it online.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/episodes/victoria-s1-e1/

I must go out to use up my gift certificates before the store has it's final closing so I will be back later to discuss these next two chapters.

Jonathan, my deepest sympathy to you on the loss of your beloved wife.  I have always used my fingers as a "pinch of salt."  No measurements required.  It's good to hear you and your son are sharing time together baking, I am certain your wife's presence is there with the two of you. 

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: CallieOK on January 17, 2017, 12:24:58 PM
MKaren,  I had the same idea about Gaskill thinking most of her readers would be in London.   I'm enjoying what I see as her rather "sly" sense of humor.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 17, 2017, 01:33:48 PM
JONATHAN: so sorry. We're thinking of you.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 17, 2017, 01:36:53 PM
well, this story did bring a tear to my eye. And a scowl for Mrs. Jenkins. Not sure I can forgive her, as her sister has.

I'm sorry to learn that /Paris is so dangerous to the health. I managed to survive it.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 17, 2017, 02:34:38 PM
Haha Joan - the only 'dangers' I encounter there are red wine, butter and Brie...
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 17, 2017, 04:14:20 PM
     Certainly, Joan, Miss Jenkins had absolute rule over Miss Matty in that household and after Deborah's death she still has a hold on Muss Mathilda.  I had a boss once who ruled with an iron fist, but was very kind to anyone in need.  To make a long story short, it was my first job and my husband and I had little or no money.  I had very few things to wear to work and I guess I didn't dress very professionally.  One Friday afternoon, she called me to her office and angrily told me that I needed to dress differently. than I was.  She said she was embarrassed by what I was wearing when she came to my office with a guest.  I was devastated.  I spent the whole weekend trying to pull together outfits from clothes in the back of my closet.  When I got to work on Monday morning, there was a whole box of new clothes for me, which she had made over the weekend.  I think Miss Jenkins was like that as she ministered to the Browns and even before that when she accepted the Captain into Cranford society.
     What about Mr. Holbrook?  How did you feel about him?  The story of the peas was wonderful, but I'm not sure I would have been very comfortable in his house.  Did he seem to be a member of the gentry?
     
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 17, 2017, 10:01:50 PM
In chapters three & four the narrator is no longer just an observer, she has become more of a participant.  We see more of her personality, she seems to be insinuating herself into Miss Matilda's life more than I would have expected, since she at this point seems to me to be a visiting friend who comes and goes at different intervals.  I found it just a little strange she walked the gardens with Mr. Holbrook twice, rather it be Miss Matilda.  She went behind the back of Miss Matilda with her servants and that seemed completely out of place.  Staying with someone does not give you the right to make decisions in any way especially with servants.

Callie, I saw those three questions posed as rhetorical, a bit tongue in cheek, Gaskell's dry humor.

JoanK.,  I am with you, I felt very sad for Miss Matilda being denied the love and family with Mr. Holbrook, because Miss Jenkyns felt he was not in proper rank for a Rector's daughter.  I suspect this happened often back in this era.

I was lukewarm with Mr. Holbrook, I wasn't sure what to make of him saying to Miss Matilda,  pg.  39  "Matty__Miss Matilda__Miss Jenkyns!  God bless my soul!  I should not have known you.  How are you?  how are you?'  He kept shaking her hand in a way which proved the warmth of his friendship; but repeated so often, as if to himsel, 'I should not have known you!"  that any sentimental romance which I might be inclined to build, was quite done away with by his manner.

So what are we to make of this?  If I ran into someone I had cared for intimately years later and he said,  "I should not have known you!" It would probably make me question his sincerity.  I mean how could he not have known her?  Why did he come back and need to leave so quickly to see Paris?  Was he being sincere, was he escaping having to be committed to Miss Matilda now that her sister was gone and would not be in the way of the marriage?  Did he not like the changes in Miss Matilda, and is he referring to her looks?  He seemed to give more attention to our narrator than to Miss Matilda.  He just seemed a bit addled to me involved more in his books than people.

I was confused with this statement.....  I am happy to say my client, Miss Matilda, also left the shop in an equally bewildered state, not having purchased either green or red silk. 

If this is still the narrator then why did she refer to Miss Matilda as "my client"?   The narrator is not the shopkeeper.  How can Miss Matilda be considered her client, if anything the narrator is a friend/visitor in Miss Matilda's home.

The definition of a client:  a customer or a person who uses services.
Read more at http://www.yourdictionary.com/client#s0ylZeQy46cslhwk.99

These two chapters left me a bit bewildered.

In my footnotes as far as that wicked Paris it says:A probable reference in the iniquity of the French Revolution (1789) rather than the later idea that the French were sexually immoral.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 17, 2017, 11:50:59 PM
Thanks for the sympathy. My wife and I had a long and happy marriage. But then again, it always surprised me how much she could pinch with two fingers. So I prefer a different measure. She was an avid reader; but then she was a professional college librarian. She certainly put me on to a lot of good books. Willed them to me in fact.

Miss Matty's plight rings so true. Her dead sister rules her life, like never before. You're right, Bella. The narrator, Mary Smith, is it? seems ambiguous about her feelings for Miss Matty. Until, and none too soon, at the end of Ch 4, she, Miss Matty, 'startled, submits to Fate and Love.' This book certainly moves along at a good clip. I have only a vague feeling as yet about the Cranford ladies and unreliability.

Perhaps London served as a reality check for the author. A lifetime ago I made a domicile switch from NYC to a 'Cranford' in Canada's midwest. It was awesome in contrast. A big sky but a very close social horizon.

I'm not sure Miss Matty has forgiven her sister. How can she? Her sister could do no wrong.

Alas, it's Cranford that is dangerous to health. Captain Brown is gone. Mr Holbrook is gone. Deborah is gone. Is it fate? Or is it lack of imagination on the author's part?

My imagination is still running on the dangers of Paris to one's health. There was the story we told each other when we were young, about the guy who came back from Paris with a serious case of syphillis picked up on the left bank. The fool went back when he was feeling better. And met the same young beautiful streetwalker. 'Have I got something for you', she told him. 'Even better than the last time.' 'What is it this time?' he asked her. 'Cancer'?

A much funnier, but far more serious encounter was described by the then eminent evangelist Charles Templeton in his book: An Anecdotal Memoir., He was working with Billy Graham after WWII, heading up Youth For Christ. The two went for a walk in Paris, had a close encounter with two young ladies, came to their senses and ran for their spirtual lives. Literally.

A huge effort was made in Victorian times to save the fallen women. Prime Ministers were known to do missionary work in the streets of London. I'm sorry. This book is about Cranford.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 18, 2017, 12:06:10 AM
They had meant to pray with the girls in their room. I must find the book. The dangers of doing missionary work. Kendrick Bangs, the American writer of a century ago, had a humorous story of the missionary, delighted at the invention of the telephone. He could now 'call' the cannibals, and needn't run the risk of ending up in a pot, in some farflung post.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 18, 2017, 01:47:38 AM
Jonathan, 
Quote
The narrator, Mary Smith, is it?

Hmmm...... where ever did you come up with this name?  I was questioning why the narrator used the words, "my client" did I miss something? 

Okay now I had to go back and reread this scene and there is another thing that jumped out at me. 

pg.  37  Very soon after__ at least during my long visit to Miss Mitilda__I had the opportunity of seeing Mr. Holbrook;seeing, too, his first encounter with his former love, after thirty or forty years ' separation.  when a tall, thin, Don Quixote-looking old man came into the shop for some woollen gloves.  I had never seen the person, (who was rather striking) before, and I watched him rather attentively, while Miss Matty listened to the shopman. 

pg. 41  He looked more like my idea of Don Quixote than ever, and yet the likeness was only external.

footnote:  Don Quixote looking old man:  In Don Quixote de la Mancha (1605-15), a satire by Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra (1547-1616),  the hero who goes questing for chivalric adventures is a mild amiable man in rusty armour on a worn-out old horse.[/i]

Was our narrator smitten with Mr. Holbrook, was mentioning the resemblance, his love for books and needing to go to Paris the clues he would die?  This book is beginning to feel like Hansel and Gretel, Gaskell is dropping crumbs along the way. 

Alonso Quixana is an older gentleman who lives in La Mancha, in the Spanish countryside. He has read many of the books of chivalry and as a result, he has lost his wits, and he decides to roam the country as a knight-errant named Don Quixote de La Mancha.

Cervantes becomes a party to his own fiction, even allowing Sancho and Don Quixote to modify their own histories and comment negatively upon the false history published in their names. In the end, the beaten and battered Don Quixote forswears all the chivalric truths he followed so fervently and dies from a fever.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS722US722&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=how+did+don+quixote+die

Jonathan I am with you this story is moving right along.  If you aren't careful you will miss Gaskell's little nuggets she is dropping.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 18, 2017, 10:03:19 AM
Bella, the use of the word client here is interesting.  I found two definitions of the word that sort of apply.  Dictionary.com says that a client is one who is provided services of another; one who is getting support or care of a patron.  On this particular outing the narrator says she is helping Miss Matty to decide if any of the colored silks in the store match the tablecloth.  So in that sense she in providing a service to Miss Matty, she is the patron and Miss Matty the client. Others may have a better explanation.
The narrator's name is Mary Smith which is revealed at the end of the book, but we can refer to her by name now if you like.
Jonathan- as an aside, "Ladies of the night" were numerous during the Victorian Period.  I always figured that Victorian women middle class or above were, as I said, either Eve or Mary.  So decent women were not expected to enjoy sex, so men would seek to meet there needs elsewhere.  Prostitution was often the object of attempts at social reform, but those attempts were not very successful.  This is not related to the ladies og Cranford, but it is about Victorian life.
       Back to dinner at Mr. HOlbrooks and we mustn't for get to talk about the servant problem and the coming of Martha. :)


Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 18, 2017, 10:21:59 AM
Yes, I saw those two definitions but felt it an odd choice of words "my client" to use regarding the narrator and Miss Matty.  I suppose the fact she was helping her pick out a color of silk could be considered a service, but it seems more like a friend helping a friend rather than a service. 

So, now we know the narrator's name is Mary Smith.  She sure had an active role in these two chapters.

My take on the servants Fanny and Martha wanting to date and Miss Matty not allowing it was Gaskell covering the expectations of servants to keep their private lives away from the house.  In Cranford as they say, men are few and far between so these young girls hoping to marry would obviously be interested in men, the skulking around in the kitchen would not be appropriate or safe. The men the servants would be dating are far below the ranks and could not necessarily be trusted not to steal from the house or do harm to Miss Matty.  I do like how Miss Matty decided to allow Martha to date, giving her the opportunity to find love and happiness something she missed out on. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 18, 2017, 06:01:55 PM
BELLAMARIE:" I do like how Miss Matty decided to allow Martha to date, giving her the opportunity to find love and happiness something she missed out on."

Yes, that was a nice touch by Gaskell, introducing this subplot  allows a happy ending to an unhappy story. Gaskell seems to want upbeat endings: the first story ended with the joke about Dickens.

Were these serialized one chapter at a time, or two?

On "my client": I read that as meaning "the client of the shopkeeper that I was with."

""Ladies of the night" were numerous during the Victorian Period. " My reading of "Behind Closed Bedroom Doors" is useful here. This was one of the few ways a young woman left without male support could earn a living. In the working class, it was common for women to start that way, and in middle age, settle down, marry a client, or start a small home business of some sort. They apparently weren't spurned by their neighbors, as an upper class woman would have been.

This industry was supported by a view of men which held it was unhealthy for them not to satisfy their "appetites,"  which might necessitate a wife, a mistress, and the ladies of the night. (there was a contrary view recommending striving for morality: presumable individuals dealt with this contradiction as best they could.)

Of course, an upper class woman was spurned completely if even the slightest touch of impropriety.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: ANNIE on January 18, 2017, 06:53:19 PM
 I am trying to put up a link here that I found in my email today:
chttp://history1800s.about.com/od/leaders/ss/Queen-Victoria-Facts.htm
ve
http://history1800s.about.com/od/1800sglossary/a/1800stimeline.htm

This sight has so many historical things to read!

Sorry I have not been here in the discussion but I have been lurking and reading along with you all!
Things have been  hoppin' here at my house. 😊💕




Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 18, 2017, 07:31:12 PM
Joan- Cranford was serialized in the same way our reading assignments are divided.  I feel as if there is closure at the end of each section.  I do think you are right about Gaskell liking happy resolutions or at least leaving the readers at peace. 
In addition to the Mary and Eve contrast, and there was no middle here, because if you weren't totally pure, you immediately became Eve, there was this expectation of women.  Woman's job was to totally support her husband and make life as easy for him as possible.  If something went wrong with the business, it was assumed to be because his wife did not do her duty.  She fell into disgrace.

Adoannie-  Lurking and reading along is just fine.  Thank you for the link.  I will be checking it out.   
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 19, 2017, 08:24:12 AM
Good Morning
      I woke up early this morning the songbirds;just after dawn they were so loud and melodic. Tom Brady (my dog) and I have just returned from a long walk.  It promises to be another beautiful Florida Day.  This is our last day of discussion of chapters 3-4.  In the next installment(chapters 5-6) we will be sharing some of Miss Matty's memories in "Old Letters" and "Poor Peter".  I keep thinking that perhaps we are spending too long on each section and might want to move on sooner than the calendar says.  I would like to hear how you are feeling about the pace of things.  As I said in the beginning, I can readjust the schedule anytime. 
     Off to my Latin class.  I will be checking in later.  I just need to say again "I Hate Auto-Spell."
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Frybabe on January 19, 2017, 09:07:48 AM
I'm just now trying to catch up and came across the reference to Blackwood when the ladies were visiting Mr. Holbrook. When I was still in high school I subscribed to the magazine and still have a hardcover book called Traveler's Tales from 'Blackwood'. Project Gutenberg has many of the volumes posted; I have read several of the early volumes from there, too.

Rosemarykaye, is Blackwood still being published? Perhaps I'll remember to check on it this afternoon.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 19, 2017, 09:30:20 AM
Hi Frybabe

So glad you joined us this morning.  Blackwoods was published until 1980 and was in the Blackwood family the whole time.  I am going to check it out on Gutenberg.  Come back soon.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 19, 2017, 12:43:25 PM
My input - others may have a different viewpoint - there were so many tidbits to look into while reading chapters 1 and 2 where as these two chapters for me were simply a straight forward reading and frankly not near as interesting so that for these 2 I could see us moving on a bit quicker - but do not know if the remaining chapters are more like the first 2 or like these second 2 - I'm thinking though to have 4 chapters to read in a week would probably be a bit closer to how we do more in a day and a week during this time in history rather than keeping to a schedule established for a time when life moved slower.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 19, 2017, 12:53:12 PM
Karen I think the pace of discussing the chapters is perfect.  To rush through would be an injustice, some are not able to check in as often as others so it does give them a chance to catch up. 

Barb,
Quote
these two chapters for me were simply a straight forward reading and frankly not near as interesting so that for these 2 I could see us moving on a bit quicker -

For me I did not find these chapters simply straight forward reading these two chapters revealed so much more because our narrator is now an open active character giving us a lot to look at, she reveals more of her personality as she interacts rather than observes.

Before we move on there were a few points I found interesting at the dinner.  Our narrator, Mary Smith (shall we use her name since it has been revealed?) has now become an active character in the these chapters.  She seems to not like being ignored:

pg. 44 He strode along, either wholly forgetting my existence, or soothed into silence by his pipe - and yet it was not silence exactly. He walked before me with a stooping gait, his hands clasped behind him; and, as some tree or cloud, or glimpse of distant upland pastures, struck him, he quoted poetry to himself, saying it out loud in a grand sonorous voice, with just the emphasis that true feeling and appreciation give. We came upon an old cedar tree, which stood at one end of the house -

"The cedar spreads his dark-green layers of shade."

"Capital term - 'layers!' Wonderful man!" I did not know whether he was speaking to me or not; but I put in an assenting "wonderful," although I knew nothing about it, just because I was tired of being forgotten, and of being consequently silent.


After Mr. Holbrook has finished reading the poem 'Locksley Hall"  Miss Matty awakens and says,  "It is so like the beautiful poem of Dr.  Johnson's my sister used to read__I forget the name of it, what was it my dear?"  turning to  me.  "Which do you mean, ma'am?  What was it about?" 

I was puzzled that the narrator did not remember the famous Dr. Johnson's book, when it was such a whole topic she talks about with Captain Brown and Miss Jenkyns disagreement which led to them quarreling and her being upset with him. 

A couple of you questioned the validity of the narrator and at the time I had no reason to suspect it, but now I am starting to have doubts about this narrator, now that she is such an active character in these two chapters.  Can you be objective when being a duo part in a story?  Observing giving your opinions and observations is one thing, but then becoming an actual character active in the story plot shines a new light on possibly the validity.  Miss Mary Smith the narrator seems to have quite a personality and does not seem to like being ignored.  We know she is younger than the ladies of Cranford so it would make perfect sense to want attention and seem important.  She does seem in these two chapters to be front and center and taking a role that seems inappropriate for Cranford ladies, but not so much so in her more modern city she lives in.  Is she bringing changes to Cranford?
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: CallieOK on January 19, 2017, 01:20:22 PM
I'm beginning to wonder if the narrator was hired as an occasional "companion" to the ladies she visited in Cranford.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Frybabe on January 19, 2017, 01:34:47 PM
Thanks, Karen. I suspected as much. I think I looked up Blackwood several years ago but couldn't remember what I discovered.

Tennyson's Locksley Hall  https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/45362

I read Boswell's Life of Samuel Johnson years ago, but have never read any of his works. The book originally belonged to my Dad. I think I would like to read some (if not all) of Johnson's Lives of the Most Eminent English Poets. Wikipedia lists the poets within its pages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lives_of_the_Most_Eminent_English_Poets 

RE: the narrator. I've been wondering who she is; she calls them (I forget which) clients. It doesn't appear that the question is every resolved.

GINNY, here is something interesting: Johnson translated Alexander Pope's Messiah into Latin. It was his first published poem.

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 19, 2017, 01:59:28 PM
I myself would prefer to stick to two chapters at a time - I have so many other things on the go just now that two is about all I can cope with - and although I did read the book right through before we started, i have a head like a sieve and need to re-read the chapters as we go along.

What a fascinating suggestion about the narrator, Callie - maybe she is a paid companion? Is that likely, MKaren? She is certainly mysterious, at least from our vantage point.

Joan, I have borrowed the How to live like a Victorian book from the library. When i first saw it it looked so thick and heavy that I thought I would never get through it, but as you know it is in fact divided into very short sections, and very well written too, so it is great to dip in and out of, and very entertaining. I have just read the section on teeth cleaning - I had no idea Victorians used things like carbolic, camphor and chalk, or even ground up cuttlefish! And the author says soot was the best one she tried 'as it washes clean away' - but how long does that take, I wonder?

The section about washing - the 'stand-up wash' - reminded me of my own childhood, which was in the 1960s rather than the 1860s! My mother was in a constant state of anxiety about the cost of hot water, and we did not have a shower, so baths were strictly rationed. A friend and I recall that we often washed in the hot water from our hot water bottles, poured out into the basin the next morning! How things have changed - my daughters think nothing of having two showers a day sometimes, and constant hot water is the norm for them (and for me too now, of course).

I definitely recommend this book - thanks Joan. The girl at the library desk was also very enthusiastic about it - she says there's another one about the Tudors, also very good. I suppose that would give some background for the wonderful Wolf Hall.

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 19, 2017, 02:41:49 PM
ROSEMARY: glad you're enjoying the book. It's a bit of a slog if you think you have to read it cover to cover, but great fun if you dip in and out on topics that interest you.

FRYBABE: I never heard of "Blackwoods." I wonder if it's similar to the American Magazine of about the same time: "Godys Ladies Book." I have a bound copy of a year's issues that belonged to my great grandmother. The pages are in such poor condition, I'm scared to try to read it, but I love to look at the "fashion plates."
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 19, 2017, 02:43:41 PM
KAREN: I like the pace. People are still finding things to say, but we've sucked the meat out of the story. good time to move on.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Frybabe on January 19, 2017, 03:36:24 PM
JoanK, Blackwood's was more a literary journal than anything. It included serialized stories, poetry,reviews, travelogues, and a few other things I probably forgot. I think I vaguely remember a few articles of critical political analysis, too.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 19, 2017, 03:48:21 PM
Callie, 
Quote
I'm beginning to wonder if the narrator was hired as an occasional "companion" to the ladies she visited in Cranford.
Hmmm... now that would explain her using the words, "my client" when they were in the shop.  We sure don't know much about the narrator as of yet, she did give instructions to Martha the servant to keep here abreast of Miss Matty.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 19, 2017, 04:34:00 PM
Mary Smith's background will emerge later, but I don't thing she was being paid to do this.  However, I may have missed something.
Most of you seem to want to keep moving at the same pace and that is fine with me.  Barb, will that work ok for you?  I think it is fine to go where the discussion leads us.  Although we probably don't want to discuss the football playoffs or price of a new tv, I have enjoyed and found relevant prostitution, cookbooks and measuring, clothing and fashion, and all of the other places our discussion has led us so far.  So if you find some tidbit in your reading or want to ask a question about anything, please do. So far everyone seems to be willing to help answer.
So for now, carry on.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 19, 2017, 05:27:34 PM
It will work - enjoying the posts - she does a nice job of creating various personalities - Sun finally out after two weeks of dank rain - this is a nice story to turn to with all the upheaval elsewhere.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 19, 2017, 10:43:32 PM
For once I must disagree with you, Joan. There's always another juicy suck left in the Cranford, or Gaskell, orange, it seems. Here's the latest for me:

'I closed the book when I got about half-way. It is beautiful; it is mournful; it is monotonous....'

Those words are in a letter to Mrs Gaskell from Charlotte Bronte, regarding Tennyson's lenghty poem In Memoriam. I was looking for something about Locksley Hall, which Mr Holbrook read in his best voice, but which put Miss Matty to sleep 'within five minutes.' We could profitably take a day or two to discuss it.

And how about these 'juicy' words from Martha:

"Why, it seems so hard of missus not to let me have any followers; there's such lots of young fellows in the town; and many a one has as much as offered to keep company with me; and I may never be in such a likely place again, and it's like wasting an opportunity. Many a girl  as I know would have 'em unbeknownst to missus; but I've given my word....'

I crack up over the headache this must have been for housekeepers, and the lady of the house, with all these Lotharios hanging around. I do believe I have become mired in the details of this remarkable book. I've also started a biography of Queen Victoria. She found much solace, after Albert died,  in Tennyson's elegy to his friend Hallam. I'm sorry, I may not be able to keep up with you. So much collateral interest comes with this book. Just too, too, juicy.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 20, 2017, 09:00:04 AM
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/45362.
     This is a website where you can look at "Locksley Hall".  Now, I know that I do not live in Victorian times, but this would be a hard poem for me to hear and engage with if it were read to me. So, it did not surprise me that Miss Matty "fell sound asleep."  I get the impression that Miss Matty, unlike her sister, was more interested in crocheting or sewing than in literary works.  So her evaluation of Mr Holbrook's reading was, "What a pretty book."  which she changed to "beautiful" when he reacted negatively to "pretty." 
     I am not an expert on Victorian poetry, but I did read "Idylls of the King" because I love the tales of Camelot, and, on request, I read "Crossing the Bar" aloud at a funeral once.  Barb, maybe Tennyson might be a good discussion on the poetry sight.
Anyway, Jonathan, thank you for calling attention to that incident.




 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Frybabe on January 20, 2017, 11:26:28 AM
Karen, you might like Tennyson's Lady of Shallot, if you read Idylls.  https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/45359

We had a wonderful discussion on it last March. http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4559.0


Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Frybabe on January 20, 2017, 11:36:19 AM
I've just finished chapter 5. My first thought, when Matty decided to burn old letters, was there go what could be valuable historical social commentary, and how they handled and thought about the many joys and problems in the early 19th century. We were never a bunch of letter and card keepers in my family so why that popped up, I don't know.

Anyway, the letters were a fine introduction to Peter.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 20, 2017, 04:58:42 PM
I loved Gaskell's description of the quirks people have about spending money. It is so true. Both my husband and I had these quirks (not about the same things, unfortunately). I've always been intrigued by the fact that money, which  should be a cut and dried matter of dollars and cents, actually arouses all our deepest psychological quirks, strengths and weaknesses.

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 21, 2017, 09:49:27 AM
I don't know about the rest of you but I spent the day watching the inauguration activities which, for some reason, sapped my energy.  But, thank you Frybabe and Joan for keeping us going in the book club.  Fryebabe, I didn't know that you had read some of the Idylls. Thank you for telling me. 
Joan, money can be such a source of conflict in any relationship, particularly when the two people have differing priorities.  I think it showed between Miss Matty and Mary Smith over use of the candles.  This also points how for granted we take adequate light.  Have you ever tried reading by candlelight.  Not only is it hard to see, but the light flickers which bothers me.
   I have been thinking about writing letters, which was a part of my life as I was growing up.  I used to sit at my mother's desk and use her fountain pen and write letters to my grandmother, and they wrote back to me.  Getting a letter was a source of great joy.  I do have a couple of her letters, but because I have moved several times, any others I saved are gone.  In boarding school we had to write home every Sunday morning and my mother's letters were the a hit among my friends--typical small town full of news and gossip.  I do wish I had some of those.
    With the phone, email and text, letter writing is a lost art.  How do you think that has affected our lives?  In the chapter "Old Letters"  Miss Matty goes through old letters and burns them.  Would you have burned those letters?  How would it feel to spend two+ days listening to someone read their letters?  What did we learn about Miss Matty and her family?  I had to go to footnotes to understand some of what was in them.
    We will be working on this section through Monday, so there is still plenty of time to read.  Have a relaxing Saturday.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: nlhome on January 21, 2017, 10:42:58 AM
The letters were interesting. We have a few that my parents wrote to each other when my dad was in the Army for almost 5 years during WWII. After he died, my mother burned most of them, probably too personal for her to want us to see. I have a box of letters I saved when my husband was in the Navy, and he saved all of mine - I am thinking I will probably burn most of them as well. My kids don't need to read them. I'll save the few that are more about what was going on and less about our personal thoughts, because there is some history in them.

I can't imagine reading by candlelight for any length of time. That must have been so tiring.

I used to go into elder's homes to help them with their paperwork, Medicare and Social Security and such. I often had to ask them to turn a light on or open curtains, because I needed more light to read - I wondered sometimes if that's why they didn't even open their mail, because they couldn't see well enough but thought that it was wasteful to use the electricity. (However, that didn't stop them from leaving the TV on all day, so, yes, interesting how people think of spending money.)
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 21, 2017, 03:12:03 PM
'What cannot  letters inspire? They have souls; they can speak; they have in them all that force which expresses the transports of the heart; they have all the fire of our passions. They can raise them as much as if the persons themselves were present. They have all the tenderness and the delicacy of speech,  and sometimes even a boldness of expression beyond it. Letters were first invented for consoling such solitary wretches as myself!... Having lost the substantial pleasures of seeing and possessing you, I shall in some measure compensate this loss by the satisfaction I shall find in your writing. There I shall read your most sacred thoughts.

Don't burn anything. Remember how you felt writing them. Leave it on record. It could be of the greatest interest to posterity. How pleased Peter would have been to get the letter from his mother:

'My dearest Peter, You did not think we should be so sorry as we are, I know, or you would never have gone away. You are too good. Your father sits and sighs till my heart aches to hear him. He cannot hold up his head for grief; and yet he only did what he thought was right. Perhaps he has been too severe, and perhaps I have not been kind enough; but God knows how we love you, my dear only boy. Don looks so sorry you are gone. Come back, and make us happy, who love you so much. I know you will come back.'

It was a horrible hoax to play, wasn't it?

The first quotation was from The Letters of Heloise to Abelard, included in the book: The World's Great Letters. Some of the world's greatest treasures are the letters, diaries and journals that thoughtful people left behind.

But all eyes are on Washington and the future. God bless....
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 21, 2017, 03:17:43 PM
My eyes are glued to tv. Beautiful quotes,  Jonathan.  Thank you
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 21, 2017, 03:23:25 PM
JONATHAN: what a lovely letter. i'm so glad no one burned it.

Again, Gaskell expresses perfectly how it feels to read old letters. I had occasion to read some letters that my parents wrote to each other before they were married: indeed, it was sad, but I couldn't understand why. they married and  had sixty happy years together. The letters were light, telling the trivia of the day. But I just thought "they were young once too!"

PATH: please don't burn them!
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 21, 2017, 03:35:49 PM
I'm so glad my kindle is hooked to a dictionary, so if I see a word I don't know, I can click on it and a definition comes up. I didn't believe that "sesquipedalian" was a word, but there it was:  "....characterized by long words: long winded." from the Latin for "a foot and a half long." great word, but I don't think I'll try to memorize it: it's unlikely to come up in conversation.

That's the umpteenth dig that Gaskell has made at the long winded style that was considered "good writing" in the day. No wonder she was so popular: her writing must have been a breathe of fresh air. Note that we don't read the "good" writers anymore.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 21, 2017, 03:38:54 PM
What do you think of the different characters of iss Mattie's parents, as revealed in the letters and life story. Does miss Mattie strike you as being a lot like her mother?
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 21, 2017, 03:46:04 PM
I finally got the time to read chapters 3 and 4, after we just left them, but I'll comment anyway.

I agree with JoanK that "my client" just means the one of the store's clients that came in with the narrator.

The incident of the peas reminds me of a rhyme we children thought was pretty funny when we were about 8:

I eat my peas with honey,
I've done it all my life.
It does taste rather funny
but it keeps them on the knife.

The long ago failed romance between Matty and Mr. Holbrook points out an interesting facet of Cranford life.  All the characters spend a lot of time and effort reinforcing what I call their sense of identity, and this is largely a sense of class.  Mr. Holbrook, although related to Miss Pole, is a bit lower than Matty, and doesn't even deign to take the steps available to him to edge up a bit in position.  This makes him unacceptable to Matty's family, maybe to her too.  It's a dilemma for a woman--try to find happiness at the cost of lowering your class?  Except for this snag, Holbrook looks like very good husband material.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 21, 2017, 03:51:29 PM
Quote
PATH: please don't burn them!

JoanK, you know me better than that.  I never get rid of anything. ;)
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Frybabe on January 21, 2017, 04:43:49 PM
One thing I noticed quite strongly was that everyone's sense of propriety and station in life comes out very strong as does the possibility of shaming family or the "what will the neighbors think" mentality. It has crushed more than a few friendships and romances for a very long time. I do remember hearing "What will the neighbors think?", spoken by my Mom, more than a few times when I was young.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on January 21, 2017, 07:01:38 PM
'What will others think' has me confused and pondering - some of our social niceties have disappeared as the new call for not to worry about what others think and yet, during the time we cared, society also had a tyrannical approach to how we should live our lives in order to be considered acceptable. It appears we often throw the baby out with the bathwater when social change happens. 

A tidbit before we pass the discussion on candles - the reason so many young women by the age of 20 or 21 were nearly blind and soon after could only see foggy shapes - In the nineteenth century lace was still a part of a woman's dress - machine lace, although possible in 1808 was not in production for general use by manufacturers till 1835 - before, all lace was handmade - and that is the key to how women were used and abused.

A group of young woman - girls from the age of 12 and some even as young as 10 were put in a dark room to make lace - their source of light was one candle next to a cut glass drinking glass so that the candle sent out fractured bits of light and each girl placed her straight backed chair so that a tiny bit of fractured light shined on her work so that the small tiny area where she worked was lite.

Most needlework was done by a guild that only accepted men - remember there was no printed fabric till around 1834 - prior all fabric with a colorful design was hand embroidered. Lace makers were not included in the guilds. There was an explosion of needlework by high born ladies after clear windows imported from Venice were included in late Tudor architecture where as, earlier and for many years later, low income families used bottle glass for windows that did not let in the kind of light needed for reading or needlework. That is why you see many paintings of women knitting with the door open or sitting on the front steps where there was light.

The ladies of Cranford may be holding back the industrial world but there were benefits that are not acknowledged - like the health of the eyes of girls as they were the manufacturers of the very lace collars and trim on the clothing of the ladies in Cranford.

Another story you may not know - there was a huge sumptuary tax imposed on lace by both the king of France and the King of England during the seventeenth century - so the lace industry thrived in Belgium but, all about disappeared in both England and France - however, France had a solution - they raised dogs that were trained like homing pigeons to return home - half the dogs were well fed and became almost too 'fat' while the other half were on a substance diet. They were the dogs anxious for any food they got and they would return easily to their home kennel - Both sets of dogs were herded to Belgium where the fat dogs were slaughtered and the skinny dogs were packed with lace - the contraband was covered by tying the skins of the fat dogs around them - they were let loose - Of course the hungry dogs were anxious to get back to where they could expect a meal - and so France had its lace without the cost of a heavy tariff.   
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 21, 2017, 09:32:45 PM
Jonathan, Oh how much I enjoyed your post.  As I was reading the first quotation I wondered who wrote this beautiful piece of work.  And then you supplied us with, The Letters of Heloise to Abelard, included in the book: The World's Great Letters

I was browsing in Barnes and Noble the other day and came across this book,  War Letters: Extraordinary Correspondence from American Wars Paperback – May 1, 2002 by Andrew Carroll.  I held it in my hands flipped through a few pages and decided not to buy it.  After reading these two chapters I am going to purchase it. 

Chapters 5 & 6 just tore at my heart.  For a young man to get so upset for being flogged by his father for a practical joke that was very inappropriate, and join the armed services was a bit over the top for me.  But what followed was just heartbreaking.  Imagining the mother and father running through the house looking for him then trying desperately to find him outside the home or possible a friend's house was so maddening.  Then all the turn of events, they miss seeing him off, then he does not receive their letter, and the mother dies before she receives his gift, was so sad.  Gaskell sure knows how to get to the very heart of her reader.

I have letters I saved when my hubby and I were dating.  I also have journals I have written throughout my years of marriage.  I don't know how I feel about my children reading these after I am no longer here.  I suppose I need to make a decision as to whether to burn them or just leave them in my closet.  Miss Matty reading her parents letters made me think about if we have the right to intrude into reading personal letters from our parents, or siblings. 

Karen
Quote
With the phone, email and text, letter writing is a lost art.  How do you think that has affected our lives?  In the chapter "Old Letters"  Miss Matty goes through old letters and burns them.  Would you have burned those letters?  How would it feel to spend two+ days listening to someone read their letters?  What did we learn about Miss Matty and her family? 

Great questions Karen, I feel with cell phones, email and texting we have become a society of detachment and impersonal interactions.  With all the social networking like, Twitter, Snap Chat, Skype, Face to Face, Kix, Vine just to name a few, we have lost the art of communication not only through letter writing, but through verbal conversation.  We can easily misread, misinterpret, or misunderstand a text because you are not hearing or seeing the person, and the text is usually not only a few characters, but it's filled with shortened slang icons or emoticons.  I just learned the other day that cursive writing is no longer being taught in some schools.  It is considered useless since eye and finger scans are to be the new form of identification. Printing is considered enough form of writing.  Imagine our great grandchildren growing up, finding our letters or journals all written in cursive, and they would not be able to read them due to the fact cursive writing is no longer taught.  Now I am feeling very old and antiquated.
   
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 22, 2017, 08:24:47 AM
Well I still write letters - though not as often as I did before we had smart phones, laptops, etc. I wrote quite a few to put into Christmas cards to friends who live a long way away (and no, I did not write one 'round robin', these were individual letters).

My mother still has all the letters I wrote home when i was at university. At least one was expected every week without fail. I think even then we were quite old fashioned, as most of my friends queued up outside the phone box to call their parents once a week instead.  I think I preferred letters in some ways because it was easier to tell what you wanted to tell and keep the rest to yourself! I do not want to keep these letters, nor will I want to leave them for my children - to be honest I find them embarrassing and upsetting - embarrassing because I took myself so seriously at the age of 20, upsetting because it was all so long ago and I often feel I should have made better choices since then, achieved more, taken more chances, etc.

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 22, 2017, 08:32:31 AM
PS - of course not writing letters does not mean our words are not saved for posterity, in fact they are now even more likely to be saved when we don't want them to be. I was yesterday on a course about communications and publicity for churches, and the young lady running it reminded us that anything we put on Facebook, Twitter, our websites or even in our emails is forever stored somewhere, especially as it is apparently now cheaper for companies like Google to buy more storage than to delete files. Some of the people on the course were really shocked by this - they thought if you deleted something that was the end of it, they had not previously heard of caches and all the other things that hang on to all our stuff.

This was being mentioned in the context of copyright - if you breach someone's copyright and they sue you, saying that you've taken the post down is not enough.  One church had reproduced a well known and frequently used poem in its magazine. The rector received a terrifying letter from a US company threatening to sue her and the Episcopal church for thousands of dollars. She sensibly took legal advice and the lawyers told her to take the poem off the internet version of the magazine and then stop worrying. She never heard any more about it. It seems there are 'copyright trolls' who spend their entire time searching the web for copyright infringements and then reporting them to the owners of the copyright and offering to sue people on their behalf (no doubt for a hefty commission). What is the world coming to?

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 22, 2017, 08:37:26 AM
And as for Miss Matty's parents, yes I think her father is just like Deborah and her mother much more like her. Standing on principles has destroyed so many family relationships through the centuries.

I too remember how obsessed my parents were about 'what the neighbours would think.' It dominated their lives. Whilst I do object if my neighbours are exceptionally noisy late at night, or leave rubbish everywhere or something like that, I certainly would not judge them for any of the numerous little 'infringements' that so worried my mother in particular. Things like not opening your curtains early enough in the morning, putting washing out on a Sunday, women wearing trousers to church, etc etc.  My parents were only very vaguely religious, it was the propriety that mattered.

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 22, 2017, 10:21:59 AM
Well, good morning,

I just wrote a long explanation for why schools are no longer going to teach cursive, but I deleted it.  The bottom line is today's demands and time.  But Rosemary, I guess I won't worry about destroying my journals because no one may be able to read them anyway.
        I have always lived in small towns and there was, and still is, a lot of watching what other people are doing and passing judgement.  My parents frequently worried about "what the neighbors think."  I find the nice thing about getting older is that I care less and less about that.
      Barbara, thank you for the story about lace and dogs   The working conditions, although they did gradually improve in the late Victorian Age, were inhuman and destructive.  There are transcripts of hearings where the abuses of workers, particularly children, were exposed.  One of these involved the coal mines.  Because the places in mines where they dug coal were very small and narrow, small children replaced donkeys as haulers of coal.  They would fix straps to the childs head and run a veil like piece of canvas (or something like that) for the children to crawl into these small spaces, put a pile of coal in the canvas, and on hands and knees drag it out of the mine.  These children were 5-6 years old and the constant pressure of the strap on the forehead made a permanent dent in the childs brow. 
     We still have today and tomorrow on this section.  Keep those thoughts coming.

 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 22, 2017, 11:17:04 AM
Hello Mkaren,

The mines were awful places - I thought I knew all about them but I did not know about the children's foreheads. Horrible. Another 'use' of young children was as chimney sweeps' apprentices - they were sent up & down the chimneys with brushes to dislodge the soot.

We like to think all this happened in the dim distant past, but of course children are still being abused in other industries in many countries in the developing world.

I forgot to mention the candle economy thing. I love the way that Miss Matty must make sure that both candles burn down equally, even though she only uses one at a time. It is amusing to us to see all these efforts to 'keep up appearances' but - as with the discussion about Goodwill or charity shops - to people who have little, appearances are far more important than to those of us who could have more if we wanted it. I imagine that those who could afford as many candles as they liked would not have worried if one was burned down more than another, just as we see our best charity shop buys as trophies. If, however, we could not afford to shop in 'proper' shops I think we might be far less happy to advertise our bargains. It is about people's self-esteem and pride, and those are important.

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 22, 2017, 01:53:58 PM
Rosemary, you are quite right, it is about people's pride and self esteem.  I grew up in a very poor family where hand me downs and second hand shops was a way of life. It was a bit shameful for me to go to school in used clothes sometimes sizes not fitting while seeing my classmates wearing the new stylish trends.  My first paycheck I received, at the age of sixteen, I went straight way to the women's shop that sold the brand name Bobby Brooks clothes and purchased an outfit very trendy and felt like a million bucks!  Of course now that I can afford stylish trendy brands I really don't care about them.  A good fit and comfort is a must. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 22, 2017, 02:06:03 PM
I just had lunch with a group of my friends from high school, graduated 1970.  There were nine of us and I was the only one who has moved away from the small town we grew up in.  I was amazed at how each of these girls knew so much about other classmates, marriages, children, jobs, and personal private matters.  I laughed telling my husband later how they have no scoop on me because I live away from the small town.  But in reality It did shock me about how much people learn of other's lives.  What would the neighbor's think was a mantra in my home growing up.  I can still hear my mother saying, "Close that window or the whole neighborhood will hear us."  We lived on a country road and owned acres of land with neighbors a bit distance away.  We would always laugh and say, "What neighbors?" 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: nlhome on January 22, 2017, 04:35:04 PM
Rosemary, I can relate to your feelings about those letters you wrote while in school. When I reread some parts of my letters, I see how shallow and self-important I appeared. However, yes, maybe my grandchildren will be unable to decipher the handwriting, much as I am having great difficulty figuring out some letters from a great aunt that were given to me.

My New Years resolutions this year were to write a letter and mail it every week, and to contact an elected official once a week. (Also to drink a full glass of water every morning before my coffee.) So far I've stuck to it. Like Rosemary, I do send handwritten notes in my cards at Christmas to many people, but last year I tried to do the one letter a week and failed. I hope to do better. I emailed a good friend last week and told her about my resolutions, and this week I received a card and long handwritten note from her. What a treat that was!

The story about the son who left home and all the sadness and missed contacts was touching and well done. It seems to me a similar plot line has been used by contemporary writers of stories set in Regency or Victorian times: the long-lost son or the long-lost heir who left over some terrible action by a parent and all the complications and emotions and hidden stories that added to the plot.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 22, 2017, 06:46:01 PM
ROSEMARY" " It seems there are 'copyright trolls' who spend their entire time searching the web for copyright infringements and then reporting them to the owners of the copyright and offering to sue people on their behalf (no doubt for a hefty commission). What is the world coming to?"

that is why I worry when someone posts long excepts here in Seniorlearn and doesn't put it in quotes or list the author and book. It's great to know all the background we can, but please give credit where it's due.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 22, 2017, 07:00:28 PM
It's a moving story, and also frustrating; you keep thinking it didn't have to be like that.  But something was going to happen. Look at Peter--he was locked into an unsuitable career path, one he wasn't fitted for.  He didn't do particularly well at his studies, and didn't have any calling for the Church, though he was locked into it, with that living waiting for him.  He was a determined practical joker, another measure of his unfitness for the Church, but also surely a rebellion against his circumstances.

Then he steps way over the line.  His impersonation of Deborah with an infant was inexcusable at best, and at worst, if the neighbors had fallen for it, could have ruined Deborah's reputation permanently.

His father's response is the breaking point.  I don't know at what age fathers stopped beating their sons then, but for a young man just entering adulthood to be publicly humiliated in front of the whole village pushed him over the edge.  He couldn't bear facing them any more, he couldn't bear the shackles of the path toward clergyman, and he just bolted.  His emotional last interlude with his mother shows he really cared for her, and his sneaky disappearance shows he was a bit ashamed of the whole thing, but he went, too unthinking to realize they could suspect suicide.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 22, 2017, 07:08:35 PM
The Navy looks like a much more suitable career for Peter.  He did OK, though not anything special.  Patrick O'Brian fans (guilty) know what to make of his only reaching lieutenant, but that's still respectable.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 22, 2017, 07:31:29 PM
he made the best of who he was, which was fine. But his parents wanted something more: at least until they faced the prospect of losing him altogether. Then, they would have been delighted to have him as he was, but it was too late.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 22, 2017, 08:08:41 PM
There's amusement in this bittersweet section too.  Miss Jenkyns modeled her letters on those of Sam Johnson, and never forgave Captain Brown for his lack of appreciation of that author.  Now we have a chance to sample her letters, and they sound just as bad as you might expect. 

"Her hand was admirably calculated, together with her use of many-syllabled words, to fill up a sheet, and then came the pride and delight of crossing (turning the paper at right angles and writing over what you've already written, to save postage, expensive and charged by weight).....the words gathered size like snow-balls, and towards the end of her letter, Miss Jenkyns used to become quite sesquipedalian."

When she was away on a visit, where there was the threat of invasion, "Miss Jenkyns was evidently very much alarmed; and the first part of her letters was often written in pretty intelligible English..."
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 22, 2017, 08:19:48 PM
The candles, symbols of parsimony, are also emotional barometers, lit or not according to Matty's mood.  When they start to read Miss Jenkyns' letters, Matty actually lights the second candle to do them justice, and when she talks about Peter, she blows them both out, unwilling to be seen in her distress.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 22, 2017, 08:48:03 PM
I noticed Gaskell has left an opening for Peter to possibly return one day:

"And Mr Peter?" asked I.

"Oh, there was some great war in India - I forget what they call it - and we have never heard of Peter since then. I believe he is dead myself; and it sometimes fidgets me that we have never put on mourning for him. And then again, when I sit by myself, and all the house is still, I think I hear his step coming up the street, and my heart begins to flutter and beat; but the sound always goes past - and Peter never comes.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 23, 2017, 12:40:16 PM
     While I was wallowing in football yesterday, a secret passion of mine, you all were busily discussing. 
     Like everyone else, I was very moved by the story of Peter. 
     Why do you suppose Peter ran away after the flogging?  For that matter, why did his father react so harshly to the hoax?  And the mother torn apart by Peter's disappearance, seems to spend most of her time comforting the father. 
     I love Miss Deborah's comment that due to changed  circumstances after the father died, they moved into a much smaller house, that, in spite of this, "they always live genteely, even if circumstances have compelled us to simplicity.
     But Gaskell ends this chapter and the installment with Miss Matty going to check on Martha and hearing kissing.  A bit of a breath after so intense a family memory.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 23, 2017, 05:30:20 PM
"Poor Peter"

This is the most heartbreaking thing I have ever read. What a wonderful piece of writing. The pathos! One after the other they come into Miss Matty's retelling of events as 'poor' participants.

Poor Mother, who 'looked so lovely in her death', the 'soft, white India shawl' from Peter serving her as a winding sheet.

Poor Father, always looking for a sermon, now becoming one himself.

Poor Deborah, jealous of Peter in the end.

Even poor Mr Holbrook is brought back into the story. He had taught Peter to fish.

And poorer than poor, Miss Matty. " I don't think we ever laughed again after my mother's death.'

Except for the narrator. She puzzles me. She seems uncertain about her identity. Here is an author who makes herself part of the story and then becomes uncertain about her role. Talk of clients. Now, in this chapter, it's "I, a stranger,' and later, as we know, she becomes Mary Smith. How odd. Which one is it that lights a candle for a little cheer?
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 24, 2017, 12:28:55 AM
Karen to address your questions, I think Peter ran away due to public humiliation from the flogging and the people seeing him exposed dressed as his sister Deborah pregnant.  Both were enough to never want to be seen in public for a long while.

I felt the father was simply overly appalled at seeing his son's practical jokes taken too far.  It was a horrible embarrassment to the family. 

The mother mourned in silence while she consoled the husband because that is the type of woman she is.  Her tears were shed in private.

Jonathan,
Quote
Except for the narrator. She puzzles me. She seems uncertain about her identity. Here is an author who makes herself part of the story and then becomes uncertain about her role. Talk of clients. Now, in this chapter, it's "I, a stranger,' and later, as we know, she becomes Mary Smith. How odd.


I believe when you take on the duo role of observer narrator and also a character in the story you do get a bit confused about where you fit in.  She does seem to appear to place herself in various contradicting roles.  How can she be a stranger yet live in the same house with these ladies?  How can Miss Matty be her client?  These are not slip of the tongues. Gaskell has some reason for choosing these roles for the narrator.  Maybe we will find out more once her identity is revealed in the later chapters.  I have not read ahead so I can't quite understand it just yet.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 24, 2017, 10:21:21 AM
Good Morning and welcome to a new installment, Chapters 7&8

This may be my favorite installment because the ladies are visiting.  We will get to observe how the ladies relate to each other.  Mrs. Foster gives a tea party after decisions are made about who will be invited and a new arrival in Cranford almost causes a rift among the ladies.  Social class becomes the main issue in these two chapters.

Have a fun day and enjoy reading.  On Saturday we will be moving to an installment with three chapters. :)
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 24, 2017, 02:10:54 PM
Social class indeed! 

“Mrs Fitz-Adam—I suppose”—

“No, madam.  I must draw a line somewhere.  p. 100Mrs Jamieson would not, I think, like to meet Mrs Fitz-Adam.  I have the greatest respect for Mrs Fitz-Adam—but I cannot think her fit society for such ladies as Mrs Jamieson and Miss Matilda Jenkyns.”


They decide to exclude Mrs. Fitz-Adam and then in the next chapter... the ladies are excluded from visiting Lady Glenmire.  (Until they are not.)

It was really a relief to Miss Matty when Mrs Jamieson came on a very unpolite errand.  I notice that apathetic people have more quiet impertinence than others; and Mrs Jamieson came now to insinuate p. 112pretty plainly that she did not particularly wish that the Cranford ladies should call upon her sister-in-law.  I can hardly say how she made this clear; for I grew very indignant and warm, while with slow deliberation she was explaining her wishes to Miss Matty, who, a true lady herself, could hardly understand the feeling which made Mrs Jamieson wish to appear to her noble sister-in-law as if she only visited “county” families.  Miss Matty remained puzzled and perplexed long after I had found out the object of Mrs Jamieson’s visit.

A little while afterwards Miss Pole returned, red and indignant.  “Well! to be sure!  You’ve had Mrs Jamieson here, I find from Martha; and we are not to call on Lady Glenmire.  Yes!  I met Mrs Jamieson, half-way between here and Mrs Forrester’s, and she told me; she took me so by surprise, I had nothing to say.  I wish I had thought of something very sharp and sarcastic; I dare say I shall to-night.  And Lady Glenmire is but the widow of a Scotch baron after all!  I went on to look at p. 113Mrs Forrester’s Peerage, to see who this lady was, that is to be kept under a glass case: widow of a Scotch peer—never sat in the House of Lords—and as poor as Job, I dare say; and she—fifth daughter of some Mr Campbell or other.  You are the daughter of a rector, at any rate, and related to the Arleys; and Sir Peter might have been Viscount Arley, every one says.”

These two chapters had me laughing in stitches, and reminded me of last week when I joined my high school lady friends for lunch.  Our group seems to be growing as the months go by, and now we have others wanting to join us.  As we were sitting at the restaurant mentioning others who have learned of our monthly luncheons asking to join us it became a bit lively and complicated.  Myself and four of the original ladies have agreed to include already five others.  So, as one of the newbies mentioned another lady wanting to join, a couple of the other ladies said if she comes they will not come because they don't care for her.  One of the ladies revealed when she was invited a couple months ago and refused saying she had other plans, she lied because she thought this person was going to come also.  Oh my heavens, I just sat there for the longest time trying to understand who this person was, why they didn't like her and why anyone bothered to suggest she join us.  Now we are in a bit of a pickle and I just don't know where this is going.  I feel like the Cranford ladies, only I have jokingly named our little luncheon group, The Housewives of Monroe County.  Women, we can be such great friends and yes, awful foes from time to time.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 24, 2017, 11:13:14 PM
OOOPs, caught unaware. Off to read the new chapter.

But AHA, I did it! I used "sesquipedalian" in conversation! I asked my family if I am sesquipedalian. After being shown the definition, so far they agree unanimously that I am! Oh, well (sigh).
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: ANNIE on January 25, 2017, 09:22:24 AM
i wanted to ask if all of us are reading the same issue of the book?  I downloaded my copy from the Gutenberg site onto my overdrive app. And I am read it on my mini-iPad!  It is a most delightful copy! It has pale beige pages and many pictures. When I want to turn each page, I just tap on the right side of a page and it curls up and over, looking like a real page.

My other comment is about mixing peas with honey. My mother always said "always mix your peas with your mashed potatoes! This makes eating with your knife a cinch!" We thought this a very funny funny quote!😊😊😊
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 25, 2017, 04:49:50 PM
I just love your comparison to today, Bella.  We may base our opinions on something other than whether they have engaged in trade or on whether they are in the Peerage, but I have sat in groups that excluded people.  And in groups of women who turned on someone.  Why do we as women do that?

Joan, I do not think you are alone.  If we need to extend the discussion we will.  Howeve, I don't want you to goal sesquipedaiian on me.

Adoannie,
I agree with you.  The book on Gutenberg is just beautiful.  I am reading a copy I already had.  I am not sure what others are reading.


Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 25, 2017, 07:10:33 PM
I'm reading the amazon copy on my kindle. no pictures unfortunately.

Ha, the wonderful world of social distinctions. As you say, it goes beyond social class. today we have, what was just starting in Victorian times, a large middle class, to which I and my friends belong. but this doesn't stop those who have an apparently endless need to feel that they are "better" than someone. I don't know about England, here it's expressed in endless petty distinctions.

In the condo complex where  live, there is a semi-circular drive running through. Those on one side (far fewer than thee others), are referred to as being "in the inner circle, those in identical units on the other side are in the "outer circle."

It's not just women who make these distinctions. I once talked to a woman on the train who lived in a small town where almost everyone worked for the same company. She said you were expected, if you worked in a certain job, to live in a certain neighborhood, drive a certain kind of car' and socialize only with your neighbors. Whenever her husband was promoted, she was expected to move, stop being friends with those she had known for years who were now "below" her, and make friends with those who had previously been "above." her. She was pretty disgusted!
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 25, 2017, 10:50:45 PM
Snobbishness leads to a logical problem.  If you don't want to socialize with anyone even a little beneath you, and your social scale has a fair number of subdivisions, the only people you would want to socialize with would be people who wouldn't want to socialize with you.  The Cranford ladies see this problem.  Miss Pole: "...if we did not relax a little, and become less exclusive, by-and-by we should have no society at all."

They run into problems with the extremes of their acceptable range, though.  When Mrs. Fitz-Adam squeaks into society, most people accept her, but Mrs. Jamieson, at the top of the range won't do so.  Mrs. J. is sort of stuck; this is the only society available to her, so she solves the problem by simply pretending Mrs. Fitz-Adam doesn't exist.  We aren't told how Mrs. Fitz-Adam feels about this, but nobody leaves the group.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 25, 2017, 11:12:09 PM
So Miss Jamieson excluded the Crandford ladies because she felt they ranked lower than "her ladyship."  I found it quite funny how Lady Glenmire fit right in.  Miss Pole even though she wanted to go after the invite because of wanting to show off her new cap, and curiosity, I found it quite brilliant when she convinced the others to accept the invite by showing her concern for their group.  It gave the ladies a chance to reconsider with dignity, rather, be petty and refuse. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 26, 2017, 10:38:14 AM
One of the issues in the woman question for the Victorian Age is what to do with widows and spinsters.  The belief was the women could not take care of themselves.  Women can't live with other women or look to each other for help because they squabble and fight.  What about these women?  What kinds of things are they struggling with?  What kinds of things are they doing well? 

Think about the classes of women?  The ladies except for Mrs. Jamison are gentry.  Mrs. Fitz-Adam, who is one of the newly rich middle class who own property and are trying to be accepted by the gentry and the aristocracy.  Martha is of the working class.  Would anyone like to venture a guess about which of these ladies might have the hardest time on her own.


Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 26, 2017, 02:56:18 PM
Interesting questions:

" What kinds of things are they struggling with?  What kinds of things are they doing well?"  They manage the life they have known well, but are struggling with change. They have worked out a system, based on the life and people they have known for years, and it works perfectly, except that when anything (the railroad) or anyone (Mrs. Jamison) comes along that is new to that world, they are thrown into a tizzy.

I wonder if that's true of me, too?
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 26, 2017, 03:08:04 PM
"which of these ladies might have the hardest time on her own."

Hmmm, not sure. The middle class woman should be all right, if she manages her money well. The working class woman has a job. But in London and other cities, as people flocked there from the country, there were more people than jobs. The poverty was terrible.

Of course the women gentry couldn't work. They were dependent on having been left or given a stipend, or being taken into a relative's home as a "poor relation." dickens' novels are full of "poor relations. They were "better" than the servants, looked down on b the family ... a poor life.

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on January 26, 2017, 04:15:21 PM
Needless to say I just wrote a truly brilliant ( :) :) ) post and managed to lose it....

JoanK, that is definitely me! I have a cosy little routine and have to admit I don't like it much when something happens to interrupt it. That being said, I do try to 'embrace change', and one of the things I like about living in the city is that there are all kinds of people around me, of all ages and backgrounds - I do think it's really important to keep our minds open and interested as far as we can.

I suppose the railways were a huge change for the Cranford ladies - I can't really think of an equivalent in modern times. Maybe for us it is the use of computer technology? I do know people - sometimes not even that old - who refuse to use computers, smart phones, etc. I think they are missing out on so much. Like many of us, I struggle with my laptop from time to time, but I have gradually realised that you just have to keep trying, and that eventually you do learn the 'language' - I think the important thing is to lose the fear and just dive in. The Cranford ladies fear the railways - but why? Yes a few people were killed by them in the early days, but not many - surely just as many had been knocked down by carriages or fallen off horses or whatever? Are they afraid of what the railways will bring in - strangers, 'foreigners'?

As to who would manage best alone, I think probably Martha - she would just get on with it. It is these 'poor relation' ladies who would not cope, as they have not been brought up to do anything useful. The lack of education for women was shameful.

I think one of the things ladies like Miss Matty are struggling with is an overdose of nostalgia. They seem to be unable to look forward - they remind me of one of my aunts, who never ceased to harp on about how everything had been 'better in the old days'. As a child I used to find this annoying, and I still find the thought of it annoying now. This aunt used nostalgia to avoid engaging with the real world; she never left home, never had fun. She was always consumed with fear. Nostalgia is poisonous, in my opinion. Even in these dark political days on both sides of the Atlantic, there is much to look forward to. People will still do great things.

MKaren, you also asked about what the ladies do well. I think they are generally very supportive of one another, despite their petty snobberies. When push comes to shove, they are there for each other. This is perhaps an advantage of small town living over city life - in the latter you do not know your neighbours (at least I don't know mine), although maybe that makes you move out of your comfort zone to meet new people?

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: ANNIE on January 26, 2017, 05:11:58 PM
 I have finished "Cranford" and went hunting for another Victorian tale and found one immediately. It's  entitled "The Mysterious Death of Miss Jane Austen" and the author is Lindsey Ashford. And I am right back in "Cranford"!  What a nice surprise!  Since we all seem to like Jane Austen's writing and she is the center of this new title, I think you might like to read it also.

I am so interested in all your comments.  They are so well written!
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 26, 2017, 08:55:54 PM
I think there is a place for nostalgia, and without it you lose important parts of history.  I wouldn't want nostalgia to hold me back from going forward into the new ways of life, but I am very comfortable in remembering the good ole days.  I am someone who resists change when it comes when I don't expect it.  I like change when I am given the chance to know and prepare for it.  Obviously we don't always get that luxury of knowing and preparing, but mostly I think we do. 

We had a principal at the private school my children attended back in the 80's who was resisting to bring computers into the school.  The PTO had approached her and she was holding firm on her position.  I was good friends with the principal, and after the PTO approached me to talk with her I decided to. Privately I met with her and  told her I think computers would benefit all the students especially those who struggle with audio teaching vs visual.  I pointed out how they would also help the advanced students to move forward in their learning with programs that were ahead of their class curriculum, and how I felt computers could help those students struggling with disabilities.  After talking with her she agreed to begin a computer lab with one condition.... that "I" would be the one to begin it with her.  I knew nothing about computers at this time and jumped in head first and agreed to begin this project with her.  We started out in a very small room with crowded long tables and chairs with only ten computers.  Throughout the fifteen years our computer lab had been moved into a very large classroom, with twenty-five computers top notch, and we ranked one of the most advanced schools in the city where technology was concerned.  She and I are both retired now and keep in touch and we are very proud to call our successful project "our baby."  It went from newborn stage and we grew it into a very advanced computer lab. Never would I have imagined I could do something like this.  I think these women in Cranford have more skills than they are aware of.  If anything has held them back it would be not being allowed to be educated, held in a position expected of them, and their rank in society that does not allow them to do more. 

Rosemary, 
Quote
Are they afraid of what the railways will bring in - strangers, 'foreigners'?
Those may very well be some of the fears they have with the railroads.  I also think they fear how it will change their small little town.  I grew up in a small rural town, today when I go back to visit family I see how much it has changed over the years.  With growth comes a lot more issues to deal with such as crime, drugs, and more people who do not value the small town living. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 27, 2017, 12:45:08 AM
"Are you fond of astronomy?" Lady Glenmire asked.

"Not very," replied Miss Matty, rather confused...and in a private conversation, she had told me she never could believe that the earth was moving constantly, and that she would not believe it if she could, it made her feel so tired and dizzy whenever she thought about it.

On the other hand, Miss Pole compliments Miss Matty on 'the little delicacies of feeling which you possess in so remarkable a degree.' (P138)

Dear Miss Matty. She remembers Peter saying that 'the old ladies in Cranford would believe anything.' And Miss Matty adds: 'There were many old ladies living here then; we are principally ladies now, I know,"but we are not so old as the ladies used to be when I was a girl."

But what really matters in Cranford when our story takes place? In Miss Matty's own words: ''we picked our way home with extra care that night, so refined and delicate were our perceptions after drinking tea with "my lady."

What a splendid party it turned out to be, despite Mrs. Jamieson. She must be seen riding in her sedan-chair. The vulgarity of wealth! And her dog Carlo gets the cream!

Karen, my favorite instalment also.

Congratulations, Bellamarie, on what you did for your school. And Canada's athlete of the year is a sixteen-year-old girl, who brought home a handful of gold medals from the Olympics. Our girls excel at everything.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 27, 2017, 12:58:12 AM
Railways brought another painful social dilemma. Which side of the tracks will I be on? I thought I had the answer to Cranford's serious social inequalities, until I read your commentary on organizing a group activity, Bellamarie. What Cranford should have had, I thought, was not a "Peerage", but a Declaration of Human Rights with its equality, but that turns out theoretical after all, whereas the Peerage is still in print, is it not?
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 27, 2017, 01:09:48 AM
I have a small, elderly copy of Cranford. But it has these few, curious words from Mrs. Gaskell facing the title page:

"We all love Miss Matty, and I somehow think we are all of us better when she is near us."

I find myself constantly worrying about her. She has hardly survived the loss of her sister.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 27, 2017, 08:57:01 AM
"...but we are not so old as the ladies used to be when I was a girl."

Jonathan, you spotted one of my favorite lines from this section. :)
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 27, 2017, 10:28:57 AM
Good Morning to all of you.  It promises to be cool for Florida the next few days.  I love it when that happens.  The New England woman in me grows bored when the weather remains the same too long.

Tomorrow we may start discussing three chapters if you wish, but keep on referring back to anything still to be discussed in any of the sections we have "finished' because I find that the more we learn as we read on the more sense the past chapters make.  So as we see panic setting in in Cranford, let's see how the ladies confront it.

Adoannie, you bring up an excellent point.  Cranford is much more like what Jane Austen would have written than what Dickens or Elliot wrote.  I read Austen as part of a Victorian prose class and I know she is not Victorian and is very much a Romantic, I think her observations about things like society, human flaws and daily life lead very naturally to and influence the Victorians.

Bella, you are amazing.  My experience is that principals love to have a teacher suggest something to address a problem particularly if they have a solution.  Those of us who do that frequently wind up as part of the solution.  Getting computers into school wasn't easy.  As I have said before, my faculty fought them for years.  Finally it took a "royal decree" that ended "or else" before we tried and most of us bought in.  Two of our staff resigned rather than use a computer.  Ironically, by the time we got to using computers, it was the kids who taught us most of what we know now.  Now, every student in the school has a computer to use at home and in the classroom.

Jonathan and Pat, isn't this the truth "...but we are not so old as the ladies used to be when I was a girl."  I was astounded this summer when my granddaughter Cordelia (Dilly) told me that I look like an old lady.  And here I was thinking that old ladies look so much younger than old ladies did she I was a girl. Hmmm.  Maybe young is the new old.

Jonathan, Miss Matty is, I think, the most fragile of the ladies.  She is very much like the women whose husbands take care of everything and when he dies they are lost.  I really fear for the ladies who have never learned to drive, manage finances, or deal with car salesmen.  Hang on though.  Let's see how she manages.  So far, Mary Smith has been around for her.

Rosemary, is it human nature to fear what is new?  I know the fear of change is fairly strong in most people, but I love change.  A person screamed at me when I said that in a meeting; she told me that is unnatural.  But I know that people will endure terrible things rather than change. 

Thanks for all the comments.


Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 27, 2017, 12:08:10 PM
Thank you Jonathan for this: "...but we are not so old as the ladies used to be when I was a girl."

How did I miss it?  Karen my grandkids are constantly telling me I don't look like a grandma, I look like a Mom.  I take that as a high compliment coming from a 6,8,11,14,15 and 21 yr. old.  I suppose still dying my hair and having highlights can be a bit deceiving.  But honestly, when doctors and professionals say, "Sixty is the new forty and eighty is the new sixty."  I truly do believe it.  I have relatives and friends who can run circles around me in their eighties and nineties.  Don't get me wrong I keep up with these six grandchildren at a pretty good pace, but I am amazed at how the great-grandparents are keeping up as well.  Miss Matty was pretty observant for her time.

I agree, I do think Miss Matty seems to be a bit fragile with the loss of her sister, and Mary Smith has been there for her.  I wonder how she will manage when she is not there so much.  Usually the weak will get weaker, and the strong will get stronger.... what is her true strengths?  She's never really had to be strong with Deborah and Peter being the center of attention.  Maybe she will surprise us and herself.  I surprise myself often!!   ;)

Karen,  "My experience is that principals love to have a teacher suggest something to address a problem particularly if they have a solution."

I agree although, ironically at the time I was only a concerned parent speaking on behalf of the PTO who she did not seem to want to budge on.  I was teaching CCD classes on Wed. night that is how she and I had become good friends, along with all the volunteer work I did at the school.  I think coming from someone she knew and trusted, who had a very advanced son and a daughter with disabilities in the school may have been what convinced her the need was there.

Jonathan"We all love Miss Matty, and I somehow think we are all of us better when she is near us."

Another great line you spotted!  Don't we all have that one special person be it friend or family member that when we are around them make us feel better about ourselves?  I know I have a few and I am so thankful they are in my life.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: nlhome on January 27, 2017, 02:30:51 PM
My favorite line from my eldest grandchild, now 9, when she was 3, as I was squatting down to help her with her shoe:  "Grandma, you're not so old! You can still bend."   

The older women in my childhood wore house dresses and had crimped gray hair and stuffed hankies up their sweater sleeves. They played cards with us, and they seemed to struggle to get up after bending down to pick the peas. My mother wore slacks, kept a neat house, and played golf , walked a treadmill and could get down on the floor and play with her grandchildren. Now I am a grandmother and I wear jeans and travel by myself and don't think much of housework and can walk and run with my grandchildren. And I loved Miss Mattie's comment. Because when I look in the mirror I don't seem so old, but when I see myself in pictures, oh my....
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 27, 2017, 07:52:38 PM
"Grandma, you're not so old! You can still bend."   

That really made me chuckle.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 27, 2017, 08:42:51 PM
I can't leave this section without commenting on another bit that made me laugh.  The genteel society of Cranford is wrestling with whether to visit Mrs. Fitz-Adam.  Mrs Forrester's contribution:

"She had always understood that Fitz meant something aristocratic; there was Fitz-Roy--she thought that some of the King's children had Fitz-Roy: and there was Fitz-Clarence now--they were the children of dear good King William the Fourth.  Fitz-Adam!--it was a pretty name; and she thought it very probably meant 'Child of Adam'  No one, who had not some good blood in their veins would dare to be called Fitz."

The footnote in my book points out that Fitz-Roy and Fitz-Clarence were surnames given to the illegitimate children of English kings.  (Fitz means son of, like a number of other name starters, like O' and Ap and Ben.)  William IV had a huge number of illegitimate children, Fitz-Clarences, since he was the Duke of Clarence before becoming king.

So is Mrs. Forrester oblivious to the stigma of illegitimacy, or does she feel that good blood trumps all?  Either way, it's very amusing.

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 27, 2017, 09:50:25 PM
If you found it amusing, I would say Gaskell intended it to be.  She drops crumbs of humor like Hansel and Gretel dropped crumbs along their path. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 28, 2017, 12:50:28 PM
Bellamarie, Gaskell certainly drops plenty of bread crumbs for me to savor.  Immediately after these comments we learn of Mrs. Forrester's cousin who is so proud of the ff starting his name, ffoulkes, that they despair of his marrying until he finally meets a widow, Mrs. ffaringdon, and marries her for her ff.  Of course it couldn't have been because she was rich and pretty.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 28, 2017, 02:11:24 PM
But maybe SHE married HIM in order to keep the ff.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 28, 2017, 08:06:05 PM
The whole cap and turban was quite funny.  Mary Smith purposely buys Miss Matty a lavender cap instead of a sea green turban she requested to save her from looking hideous.  Miss Matty is so very disappointed yet acts like it's fine, when of course it is not:

"I am sure you did your best, my dear. It is just like the caps all the ladies in Cranford are wearing, and they have had theirs for a year, I dare say. I should have liked something newer, I confess - something more like the turbans Miss Betty Barker tells me Queen Adelaide wears; but it is very pretty, my dear. And I dare say lavender will wear better than sea-green. Well, after all, what is dress, that we should care anything about it? You'll tell me if you want anything, my dear. Here is the bell. I suppose turbans have not got down to Drumble yet?"
 
Then Mary Smith overhears:

Just as I opened the door, I caught the words, "I was foolish to expect anything very genteel out of the Drumble shops; poor girl! she did her best, I've no doubt." But, for all that, I had rather that she blamed Drumble and me than disfigured herself with a turban.

I wonder if any of us are kind enough to keep a friend from wearing something that would make them look hideous in public, or would you persuade them not to wear it?  How do you react when someone walks in a room with something outrageous on?

I went to a dinner with my sisters and brother this week.  My one sister came into the restaurant wearing a red and black plaid shirt.  My brother not thinking said, "Oh you look like Trump's girl Kelly  Ann with that shirt on."  Oh heavens it hurt my sister's feelings so badly she and her husband left the restaurant, my brother felt so bad he got up and left too.  My other two sisters and brother in law said they could not believe it happened so fast.  I saw them pulling out of the parking lot as we drove in.  I entered the restaurant and asked where they were going, they told me what had just happened.  I thought they were playing a joke on me. I asked why did he say anything to her about her shirt, what did it look like?  My sister said it was red and black checks like a lumberman's shirt.  I said, "Oh those are really in fashion, I have two of them shirts and she was so excited to tell me she got one for Christmas."   I live in a more modern fashion big city and they all still live in our small home town.  Perfect example of the cap and turban episode.  One is just not ready for the latest fashion, while the other is ready to attempt to try it out not.  Was Mary Smith and my brother wrong in not allowing Miss Matty and my sister dress the way they wanted regardless of what their personal feelings were about the fashion piece?

As Miss Matty said,  Well, after all, what is dress, that we should care anything about it?




Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 28, 2017, 09:40:16 PM
Mary Smith was being asked to spend Matty's scarce money for the hat.  I see why she wouldn't want to spend it on something unbecoming.  And Matty might have come to realize it didn't look good on her, but would have to continue to wear it, since she always wore everything until it wore out.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: nlhome on January 29, 2017, 09:37:52 AM
I though Mary was being very thoughtful about the turban. However, fashions and clothes and caps - all the discussion is for how they appear to other women. I guess that's the way it is with fashion.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 29, 2017, 09:43:49 AM
I can't wait to see if the turbans actually come to Cranford. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 29, 2017, 10:44:59 AM
If they do, it'll take a while at the rate any of them can afford to buy new clothes.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 29, 2017, 12:39:16 PM
It seems dressing their heads are most important than their dresses.  For me it's all about the "shoes!" 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 29, 2017, 02:48:24 PM
Pat: 'Mary Smith was being asked to spend Matty's scarce money for the hat.'

Is this part of the client relationship? But only a part, judging by the  many other reflections by the author on her role in the story. And Matty's history and character. This new instalment certainly is a lot of fun, as it moves from choosing a hat to choosing a husband. Is the plot thickening?

Has there ever been a time when girls have not wanted to dress up? But personality always comes through in the end. With wonderful results these days. Chic can be achieved in a scarecrow style. But heaven forbid you should mix fashion and politcs as your brother did, Bellamarie. I feel sorry for him. But it's all the president's fault.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 29, 2017, 05:34:49 PM
I feel so sorry. Now all the joy in here new shirt is gone.

I loved this section, too. I have to read it again, to get all the subtle things out of it.

This "sesquipedalian" thing is gaining momentum in my family. A little bird told me my grandchildren have decided to play "stump the grands." When they visit me or their other grands, they will look up an obscure word first,  and drop it into conversation and see if they can stump us.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 29, 2017, 05:45:20 PM
Oh Jonathan you made me laugh out loud.  My brother came back and ate with us, but sorry to say my sister and her husband did not.  I told him he joked to the wrong sister he should have waited til I got there because I am the Trump supporter and was ready for some kind of jibe.  He said something else about Trump and I told him, "You already got yourself in trouble tonight now it's time to stop!!"  We both had a good laugh.  I felt sorry for my sister because believe it or not it's the first attempt for us all to get together in over 20 years since the passing of my mother, our last living parent.  We will try again, and make it a rule NO political jokes or talk.   ;)

JoanK.,  I too felt he took all the joy from her excitement of buying her new shirt.  I called her later and told her how sad I felt for her.

Yes, I think now we have a clearer understanding of the reason Mary Smith used the words, "my client" she does in fact seem to do tasks for Miss Matty and must be compensated for it.  I wonder if she also helps her manage her money since she did not purchase the turban feeling it would be a wast of her money?  It would also explain the liberty she took with Miss Matty's servants Fanny and Martha. 

I'm not sure if there was much to take from the Signor Brunoni chapter, but then I have not finished the next chapter to see if it ties into anything more.  Nothing worse than going to a magic show and having someone like Miss Pole trying to disprove the acts.

Now we WERE astonished. How he did his tricks I could not imagine; no, not even when Miss Pole pulled out her pieces of paper and began reading aloud - or at least in a very audible whisper - the separate "receipts" for the most common of his tricks. If ever I saw a man frown and look enraged, I saw the Grand Turk frown at Miss Pole; but, as she said, what could be expected but unchristian looks from a Mussulman? If Miss Pole were sceptical, and more engrossed with her receipts and diagrams than with his tricks, Miss Matty and Mrs Forrester were mystified and perplexed to the highest degree. Mrs Jamieson kept taking her spectacles off and wiping them, as if she thought it was something defective in them which made the legerdemain; and Lady Glenmire, who had seen many curious sights in Edinburgh, was very much struck with the tricks, and would not at all agree with Miss Pole, who declared that anybody could do them with a little practice, and that she would, herself, undertake to do all he did, with two hours given to study the Encyclopaedia and make her third finger flexible.

JoanK.,  How fun that will be for your grandchildren to try to stump you with new words.  They better look good and hard if they plan to stump you because not much gets by you.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 29, 2017, 07:12:29 PM
Yes, there's a lot of good stuff in this chapter.  Look at Mr. Hayter, the "tall, thin, dry, dusty rector", so afraid of being caught by a Cranford spinster that he avoids them in shops, and at the magic show protects himself with schoolboys--"guarded by troops of his own sex from any approach of the Cranford spinsters".

And Miss Pole--she must be the stuff of nightmares for performers, scoping out their secrets ahead of time, and proclaiming their deficiencies in a loud voice from the front row.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 30, 2017, 09:14:51 AM
Good Morning to you all,
     It has been downright frosty in Sarasota for the weekend and it continues until Wednesday, but the sun is shining brightly.  Yesterday afternoon, I went to see "Hidden Figures". It was an amazing movie that I highly recommend to you all if you haven't seen it.  Then last night I went to the theater to see a play called "Brownsville Song". The structure of the play was unique, but it was not a happy play.  If anyone has seen it, let me know - -I need to talk about it.  Anyway, on to the subject at hand.

The first time I read this book, other than character in a wonderful incident with the ladies, I didn't see how he fit into the whole.  Now I see him as the foreigner, the outsider, that the ladies fear.  Notice how each of them reacts.  Then comes The Panic.  What do we learn about the ladies as individuals during this episode?  I loved Miss Matty and the ball under the bed.  My biggest fear as a child was that I would look out the window and a face would be staring in.  My mother finally had to get blinds for the windows in my room.   
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 30, 2017, 12:24:16 PM
I have to share an incident I had last night with all of you, it seems this book keeps tying in with my very own life somehow.  I was sitting here in my living room all snuggled in my favorite fuzzy blanket with my dog Sammy sleeping at my feet on the couch.  My hubby had left to go to coach our granddaughter's volleyball team.  I was reading the chapter Panic, and engrossed in this particular part:

]Having braved the dangers of Darkness Lane, and thus having a little stock of reputation for courage to fall back upon; and also, I daresay, desirous of proving ourselves superior to men (VIDELICET Mr Hoggins) in the article of candour, we began to relate our individual fears, and the private precautions we each of us took. I owned that my pet apprehension was eyes - eyes looking at me, and watching me, glittering out from some dull, flat, wooden surface; and that if I dared to go up to my looking-glass when I was panic-stricken, I should certainly turn it round, with its back towards me, for fear of seeing eyes behind me looking out of the darkness. I saw Miss Matty nerving herself up for a confession; and at last out it came. She owned that, ever since she had been a girl, she had dreaded being caught by her last leg, just as she was getting into bed, by some one concealed under it. She said, when she was younger and more active, she used to take a flying leap from a distance, and so bring both her legs up safely into bed at once; but that this had always annoyed Deborah, who piqued herself upon getting into bed gracefully, and she had given it up in consequence. But now the old terror would often come over her, especially since Miss Pole's house had been attacked (we had got quite to believe in the fact of the attack having taken place), and yet it was very unpleasant to think of looking under a bed, and seeing a man concealed, with a great, fierce face staring out at you; so she had bethought herself of something - perhaps I had noticed that she had told Martha to buy her a penny ball, such as children play with - and now she rolled this ball under the bed every night: if it came out on the other side, well and good; if not she always took care to have her hand on the bell-rope, and meant to call out John and Harry, just as if she expected men-servants to answer her ring.

All of a sudden a very hard loud knock came at my front door.... I jumped off the couch and getting my bearings about me tried to think who it could be at this hour of the night.  My dog immediately started barking.  I hesitated to open my inside door knowing the screen door would not be locked because my hubby had left out of it and I did not follow him to lock it as I usually do.  I waited a few seconds trying to decide if I should answer it.  I thought how silly I am being it's just this book that has me rattled.  I cracked the door and saw it was my neighbor across the street.  He said, "I noticed Kathy (our neighbor lady who is single) garage door is up and she has been gone for awhile now and I was worried about someone breaking into her house.  I know Joe (my hubby) has her combination to the garage since he does her lawn for her and maybe he could go close the garage door.  I replied, "Joe will be home in a few minutes I will tell him and I will call Kathy to let her know the garage door is open."  I called Kathy and immediately she was frightened that someone could be in her house and she was leaving to come home.  I told her when she gets home to let me know and I will have Joe go in her house first to make sure no one has broken in.  All ended well, no break ins, the garage door has been acting up and she needs to get it fixed.  Phew.....  after I found out all was okay I laughed and told my hubby about reading the scary part of the book then this happening really got me all spooked out. 

I grew up in a small town and we always left our doors unlocked during the day.  My step father had a gun collection in his bedroom and one night we were frightened in the middle of the night and I remember him taking down one of his shotguns, loading it and sitting in the living room waiting to see if anyone tried to enter our house.  He was a hunter and nothing scared him, but I sure was frightened all the time living in the rural part of the town with acres of land around us. Having to go down to our dark basement with a coal bin used to scare the crap out of me.  I would hum or sing all the while going into the back laundry room then run to the stairs once I got what I needed. 

Karen I am with you.....  every night I walk into my kitchen I glance at my back door imagining a face staring in at me.  I always open my basement door so it blocks seeing in the back door.  I could put up curtains but I love the light coming in during the day.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on January 30, 2017, 02:35:58 PM
Is it just me?  I have noticed that older people are very suspicious of many things.  I know that there are those who are out to prey on us (the 10-12 phone calls to my phone prove it) but at my condo people seem to immediately jump to the worst conclusion about every situation.  It really reminds me of Cranford.  New tenants are taking over our parking spaces and are probably "renters" (I am a renter);  sales people are trying to rip them off everywhere, a broken car window immediately means vandals, robbers, thieves.  I innocently asked if the window could have been broken by accident and someone is not admitting it.  They looked at me as if I were crazy.  No, it had to be a criminal.  The following things immediately raise suspicion:  a car running in the parking lot, a strange car, someone unfamiliar in the pool.  There are conspiracy theories running rampant about everything from the cable company trying to control us to the government going through our recyclables, to management trying to get us to move out.  So I understand the Panic. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 30, 2017, 03:21:51 PM
Yes, we elderly do get timid. the woman I bought my condo from was like that. there are four locks on the front door and three on the back. All of the windows were nailed shut (in a hot climate with no air conditioning). It's a very safe neighborhood. In seven years, I've never seen a hint of trouble.

When I was a child, I was convinced a burglar was going to climb in one of my bedroom windows. I would lie awake with my head swiveling from one to the other.

I like the way Gaskell describes the different levels of superstition in the different women. Notice, the narrator does not take a stand. In fact, she makes more fun of the "rational" Miss Pole, than of the superstitious ones. Of course, she knows her readers must have the same varieties of opinion.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on January 30, 2017, 03:28:09 PM
Miss Pole is typical of the "nerds" of today: wrapped up in a technical explanation, and completely oblivious to the social situation she is creating. As a nerd myself, I'm delighted to meet her in a Victorian novel, and see Gaskell recognizing that women can be as nerdy as men. Poor Miss Pole; if she lived today, she could be working in a nerdy occupation with other nerds.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 31, 2017, 01:39:16 PM
The whole Samuel Brown chapter seemed a bit confusing to me.  Gaskell wants to be done with the home robberies and fears the ladies are experiencing so the whole plot of Signor Brunoni having a wife and being ill, and his real name being Samuel Brown who has a twin brother got me lost. 

The end of their conversation with the Signora Brunoni was that it was agreed that he should be placed under medical advice, and for any expense incurred in procuring this Lady Glenmire promised to hold herself responsible, and had accordingly gone to Mr Hoggins to beg him to ride over to the "Rising Sun" that very afternoon, and examine into the signor's real state; and, as Miss Pole said, if it was desirable to remove him to Cranford to be more immediately under Mr Hoggins's eye, she would undertake to see for lodgings and arrange about the rent. Mrs Roberts had been as kind as could be all throughout, but it was evident that their long residence there had been a slight inconvenience.

But, although we had no more fear, everybody did as much as if there was great cause for anxiety - as indeed there was until Mr Hoggins took charge of him.
[/b]

I especially liked the part where Miss Matty shares with Mary Smith how she had felt as a child:

But, after all, I have not told you the truth. It is so long ago, and no one ever knew how much I thought of it at the time, unless, indeed, my dear mother guessed; but I may say that there was a time when I did not think I should have been only Miss Matty Jenkyns all my life; 
 
What a great idea their father had, I really liked this.

"My father once made us," she began, "keep a diary, in two columns; on one side we were to put down in the morning what we thought would be the course and events of the coming day, and at night we were to put down on the other side what really had happened.


And look what just may be the return of Peter!!

But an idea had flashed through my head; could the Aga Jenkyns be the lost Peter? True he was reported by many to be dead. But, equally true, some had said that he had arrived at the dignity of Great Lama of Thibet. Miss Matty thought he was alive. I would make further inquiry.

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on January 31, 2017, 05:46:46 PM
The "burglary" chapter is an amusing tale of overactive imagination.  There are two real robberies, with the criminals caught.  The next month or so, everyone is in terror, seeing robbers everywhere, many stories of suspicious characters and failed attempts.  There is no real evidence of this whatever, the nearest thing being some male footprints in Mrs. Jamieson's flowerbed, which could very well belong to an admirer of one of the maids.  Although they have no reason to suspect Signor Brunoni, who has disappeared, once he shows up and is found to be harmless, the scare goes away.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on January 31, 2017, 09:14:41 PM
Thank you PatH.,  for simplifying it for me.  I have been in the midst of painting, tearing out carpet and redecorating for my upstairs master bedroom and guest room and think I was on overload when I read it.  I actually tried reading it again but found it still a bit confusing when Gaskell brought in the Signor and his twin.   
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on January 31, 2017, 11:02:19 PM
from Karen: '...but at my condo people seem to immediately jump to the worst conclusion about every situation.  It really reminds me of Cranford.'

from Joan: 'It's a very safe neighborhood. In seven years, I've never seen a hint of trouble.'

For the ladies of Cranford the'present disturbed state of the country' makes it venturesome to accept an invitation from Mrs. Forrester to celebrate the anniversary of her wedding-day. Something they've been doing for years. Otherwise, Mrs. Forrester 'would be left to a solitary retrospect of her not very happy or fortunate life.'

Poor Mrs. Forester. In this segment we also hear about 'poor Carlo' and 'poor little Phoebe'.  And now Miss Pole gets the nod from Joan. Poor Miss Pole.

What a marvellous read. What a great mix of pathos and humor. The comical and the tragic. Hilarity and heartbreak. Sudden stark images. Like the 'tall, thin, dry, dusty' rector pointed out by Pat. Let me draw your attention to that ' mouldy odour of aristocracy lingering about the place'...the assembly room where the conjurer performed.

Is there anything more heartbreaking than Mrs. Brown's tale of woe? I've lost six children...Yes! Six children died off...in that cruel India. And how uplifting  when she finds peace and comfort in the picture of the Virgin and the Child. And a place to thank her God in the native temple, made sacred by others who had prayed there to their God, in their joy or their agony.

It seems to me that in this instalment Miss Matty begins to live a life of her own. The turban is a sign of it. We may be puzzled by things that were very familiar to her readers.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on February 01, 2017, 09:30:55 AM
        Today we are moving on if you are ready.  The plan has us finishing the book on February 14.  However, I suggest we just keep reading from here on in.  And discuss or comment as something strikes you.  Some questions to spur you on.  What is the connection between Mary Smith and the Jenkyns family?  Does your opinion of her change at all.  Do you think Peter Jenkyns will return as suggest by Bella?  What will become of the ladies of Cranford as the "inevitable" changes occur?  Are there any connections that you can make now that you missed earlier in the book?
         So let us begin the end!
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on February 01, 2017, 10:10:04 AM
Jonathan, the book is so full of sly little digs.  Another favorite of mine, when speaking of Lady Glenmire's goodness to the Browns: "Who says that the aristocracy are proud? Here was a lady, by birth a Tyrrell, and descended from the great Sir Walter that shot King Rufus, and in whose veins ran the blood of him who murdered the little Princes in the Tower, going every day to see what dainty dishes she could prepare for Samuel Brown, a mountebank!"

In other words nobility means being descended from murderers.  ;D (King Rufus was William II, who was assassinated in a "hunting accident", and it was Richard III who supposedly murdered the little Princes.)
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on February 01, 2017, 10:16:59 AM
So, what is Gaskell trying to say about the aristocracy in this book? 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on February 01, 2017, 11:30:38 AM
MKaren
Quote
I suggest we just keep reading from here on in.  And discuss or comment as something strikes you.

So are we to finish reading the book and discuss it starting today thru the 14th?

Jonathan and PatH.,  I admire how the two of you are able to see so much more than others in this story.  I have been finding these past chapters to be a bit jumbled.  I have reread them and still get this odd feeling Gaskell is trying to wrap things up pretty much like we will be doing with these last chapters.  Did this story get away from Gaskell?  Better yet, has this story ever really been put together as a story or just bits and pieces of a glimpse into a life in Cranford from the ladies view?  Jonathan has probably described it perfectly:

Jonathan,    "What a great mix of pathos and humor. The comical and the tragic. Hilarity and heartbreak."

Okay off to finish the book..... 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on February 01, 2017, 01:29:32 PM
I think we can go ahead and finish the book and maybe we will try to finish discussing it by the 10th which gives us 11/2 weeks.  Lets still try to discuss it it flows naturally.  I just think it would get us to the point where we can talk about the whole book and not worry about giving anything away.
Bella, I like your style; let's all read, if we can, so we are finished in a couple of days.  The last chapters go very quickly. Please don't feel pressured to keep up like in school, but keep moving at a rate that allows you to appreciate the book.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on February 01, 2017, 02:01:41 PM
So, what is Gaskell trying to say about the aristocracy in this book?
I think she's saying that titles or noble blood, in spite of the importance people attach to them, are no guarantee of personal worth.  The highest ranking one of the group, Lady Glenmire, is genuinely a good person, friendly, compassionate, generous, considerate.  The next highest ranking, Mrs. Jamieson, is self-centered, self-indulgent, cares little about hurting the feelings of others.  Good and bad people come at all levels.

In the example I quoted, she's also simply having fun with a good joke.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: nlhome on February 01, 2017, 04:45:13 PM
I had to take my copy back to the library as it was an inter-library loan. But didn't I read somewhere that these were written as installments for a periodical, then later put together into a novel, which might explain the choppiness at times?

I did find the last chapters a faster read. I remembered about half way through that I had read this book quite awhile ago, so this 2nd reading made more sense.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on February 01, 2017, 06:55:35 PM
     Thank you nlhome for being a part of the group.  Yes, I think that the way the book was put together definitely addicts the flow.  It also confuses the chronology as well.  Yet, the book seems to me to hold together.  Do any of you see things that may serve to unify the various stories?

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on February 01, 2017, 07:04:44 PM
At this time England is moving from an economy based on agriculture to an industrial base.  This has really hurt the landed aristocracy.  The value of what they are producing has decreased and trying to maintain their estates is becoming more and more difficult.  Their place in society is being challenged by the Captains of Industry who are even purchasing bankrupt estates.  In Cranford member of the aristocracy is even marrying out of her class. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on February 01, 2017, 10:48:28 PM
Such interesting comments from all of you about Gaskell's style, or lack of it, in Cranford. ' Choppiness', 'Confused chronology, 'She's trying to wrap things up', 'The story is getting away from her'. 'She's also simply having fun with a good joke.''

And so should the reader. And a bit of laughter through tears.

What Gaskell says about the aristocracy is interesting, especially in the light of what Karen tells us:' The landed aristocracy was hurting. Their place in society is being challenged.' Of course. Then she could allow herself to point out 'the mouldy odour of aristocracy lingering about the assembly hall.'

On second thought, she's not happy with that; and hardly a half dozen pages later she has something nicer to say about them. The robbers couldn't be citizens of Cranford.

The Cranford people respected themselves too much, and were grateful to the aristocracy who were so kind as to live near the town, ever to disgrace their bringing up by being dishonest or immoral; therefore, we must believe that the robbers were strangers.'

Or was it just Mrs. Forrester's feelings on the subject? I'm not so sure about Mrs. Gaskell's. But she does make it interesting for the reader.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on February 02, 2017, 12:42:28 PM
I finished the book and I have to say as much as men are not seen in Cranford, they are essential.  I venture to guess Gaskell wanted to show that while women have a sisterhood that is important to their day to day lives, men are the backbone of the community.  The men go off and work allowing the women to choose to work of not.  The men leave the inheritances for their daughters and wives giving them the option to either remarry or not marry at all.  Men do not have the luxury of those choices in Cranford.  These last chapters just grabbed at my emotions.  So much to discuss...

ar·is·toc·ra·cy
ˌerəˈstäkrəsē/noun
the highest class in certain societies, especially those holding hereditary titles or offices.
synonyms:  nobility, peerage, gentry, gentility, upper class, ruling class, elite, high society, establishment, haut monde; More
a form of government in which power is held by the nobility.
a state governed by the aristocracy.
plural noun: aristocracies

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS722US722&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=aristocracy+definition

I think even though these ladies in Cranford held no titles like Lady Glenmire, they were caught up in the mind set of being aristocrats. It reminds me of Alice In Wonderland, she gets so caught up in all the world after falling down the rabbit hole she becomes a part of the wonderland world, only to wake up and find she is really not of that world at all. 

When Miss Matty falls to poverty it shows how all the rest of the women are not of great wealth and could very well see themselves in ruins.  As they all take Mary Smith individually into confidence they reveal they haven't much to donate but would still like to give something.  Miss Matty has scarce money but is rich in friendships.  She has lived a life of always caring for others feelings, being honest and fair thus, it comes back around to her in her time of need.

I told him of the meeting of the Cranford ladies at Miss Pole's the day before. He kept brushing his hand before his eyes as I spoke - and when I went back to Martha's offer the evening before, of receiving Miss Matty as a lodger, he fairly walked away from me to the window, and began drumming with his fingers upon it. Then he turned abruptly round, and said, "See, Mary, how a good, innocent life makes friends all around. Confound it! I could make a good lesson out of it if I were a parson; but, as it is, I can't get a tail to my sentences - only I'm sure you feel what I want to say.

This sentence told the entire story of who Miss Matty is..."It was really very pleasant to see how her unselfishness and simple sense of justice called out the same good qualities in others."

One of my favorite lines in the entire book is: 

when my letter had reached him; and, with the odd vehemence which characterised him in age as it had done in youth, he had sold his land and all his possessions to the first purchaser, and come home to the poor old sister, who was more glad and rich than any princess when she looked at him. [/b]

No amount of money or titles can buy or hold this kind of happiness, love and joy in a person's lifetime.






Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on February 02, 2017, 03:58:43 PM
Hi all - just to say. I am still here, and to apologise for not having participated this week. I was away to Paris last weekend to visit my husband, and somehow if I am not at home Friday/Sunday everything seems to get away from me. This week has been very busy too, and tomorrow my son and his fiance are arriving for this weekend...

Anyway, just had to say how much I recognise what you describe, MKaren, about older people being so suspicious. I think it is maybe part of the fear that seems to encompass everything for some people as they get older. My mother-in-law was convinced there was someone staking out their house because she could see someone moving about outside at 5am every morning - turned out to be the milkman, who has been delivering to her for many years, but she still will not accept this. I also recall that when my mother used to visit a friend who lived in a retirement development, she told me that during one of her visits the residents noticed that someone had parked a motorcycle on the road beside their flats. (NB this was not on a private road or in anyone's parking space). After heated discussion about this they actually went outside and let the air out of the motorcycle's tyres. Can you believe that? If they saw a young person doing it they would have reported them to the police, but somehow it was OK for them.

My own mother is very sensible, but my in-laws are paranoid about everything these days. Everyone is out to get them, take their money, disadvantage them in some way, etc. I think it is very sad that people come to this, and I sincerely hope I have my mother's genes!

I live in a top floor tenement flat now, but when my children were babies we lived in an old house on the edge of a remote village in Aberdeenshire. I never locked the doors, nor did I ever lock my car. Here in the city cars do need to be locked, but I still feel pretty safe - or maybe I am just naive?

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Frybabe on February 02, 2017, 07:41:33 PM
I am not too far behind, I guess.

Near the beginning of Chapter 12 I ran across the narrator's remark that her father had to preside over a ladies' committee. It struck me that something similar occurred in The Moonstone (I think I have the right book) where one of the male characters presided at or over a ladies' committee. So, my question is, was that common? Were 19th century ladies' committees of various sorts deemed or required to need a man to lead such meetings?
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on February 03, 2017, 12:05:26 AM
Yes, it was The Moonstone.  The character, Godfrey Ablewhite, is a well-known public speaker for charitable causes, and heads the committees of ladies who do the charitable work.  The committees sound dreadful--the Ladies Trouser Reduction Society, in which they get hold of the clothing the dissolute men have pawned, presumably to buy drink, and cut them down to fit the men's unfortunate children.

But I have no idea if it was necessary to have ladies' committees led by men.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on February 03, 2017, 12:05:55 PM
That's a wonderful explanation. Gaskell caught the Amazons of Cranford in an extended Senior moment and made a vivid chapter out of it.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on February 03, 2017, 10:23:24 PM
This book was fun and yet sad at times to read.  I was so happy it ended the way it did with Peter returning to live with Miss Matty.  I could see in time maybe Mary Smith and Peter marrying.  I know he is older than her but we never did determine how much younger Mary Smith is compared to the ladies.  She sure seemed a bit jealous when Peter gave Mrs. Jamieson so much attention.

Daughters and Wives was the first novel I read by Elizabeth Gaskell and I think it will remain one of the my favorite books of all time.  Cranford was too disoriented for me.  I never really connected to the characters until the last couple of chapters. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on February 04, 2017, 08:55:48 AM
Bella,  what prevented you from connecting with the characters?  Why were you able to connect in the ending chapters? 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on February 04, 2017, 03:40:28 PM
I have fallen in love with this book, and never want it to end.  may start over again, and pick up some of the little things I missed on the way.

What a lovely way the ladies of Cranford solved Miss Mattie's problem. Social Security, Cranford style. (were there discussions at the time of some sort of pension system for women?)

The feminist part of me loves the fact that, while the women always claim they don't understand finance, and turn to men for money matters, it is the women who find the solution (Martha and the nerd with the heart of gold, Miss Pole).

I was surprised to hear that Miss Mattie was only 58. Oh, to be 58 again!
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on February 04, 2017, 10:50:36 PM
I felt Gaskell did not give us enough of each character to connect with.  I sort of felt like the visitations, short and sweet and not long enough to get too involved in who they really were.  I felt I knew Deborah more than any of the other characters because she seemed to have the most interaction, and Miss Matty kept her alive in memories letting us get to know more about the person Deborah was.  I felt Peter is the first character I connected to early on and was so happy he returned still the same fun person he had always been and oh so loving and caring for his sister.  We only got to really know Miss Matty and how kind she was at the end of the book when she was down and out and little bits came out of how she had helped others at certain points of their lives.  When she helped the man who could not use his note from the bank by her giving him her money was the first time those qualities came out.  I just felt the book was choppy as far as the characters were concerned. 

I was actually not going to continue reading the book and talked myself into finishing it.  I am very happy I stayed with it because the best chapters were the ending chapters.  The sisterhood coming together to help Miss Matty and Mary Smith helping her begin her tea business was nice, but the chapter where Peter returned was my very favorite.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on February 05, 2017, 11:31:23 AM
Good Morning, All,
      I am away this weekend at my fellow Mariner's house in Sebring, Fl to watch the Super Bowl.  I am loving all your comments and your reactions as you finish the book.  I hope you will continue to check in as you have further thoughts. 

Bella-  I am so surprised to red that you almost did not finish the book.  You have been such an involved member of the book club and have contributed such astute and meaningful insights all through our read.  I understand your comments about the development of the characters. At the conclusion of thee book, there is still more I want to know about them.  Perhaps because we read the book in sections added to the choppiness of the narrative for you and others.  Many Victorian books were serialized in this way and as I think about Dickens there is an episodic flow in some of his novels.  Anyway thank you for being such a great reader.  You found the humor and the foreshadowing and made wonderful connections to our lives today.  Thank you for sharing so much of yourself.

Joan-  I am so glad you have grown to love this book.  I have reread this I don't know how many times and this time all of you have helped me find other things to love.  For instance, believe it or not, I missed the actual age of Miss Matty which you pointed out. Joan, this points out how young we all in 2017, even though our chronological age is much older than Miss Matty's. 

Frybabe -  I am not sure that all committees had a man at the head, but even though the ladies have figured out how to help Miss Matty, at the end Mary's father is summoned to finalize things.  I remember that when I was in my teens, I read articles in teen magazines that suggested that if I wanted a boyfriend, I should defer to him about all decisions and I should never try to show him up and actually let him win.  I am not sure these attitudes have totally disappeared.   
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on February 05, 2017, 11:34:26 AM
Bellamarie, I'm glad you stuck with the book and got your reward.  The book does build toward the more dramatic events at the end.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on February 05, 2017, 11:56:26 AM
heading
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on February 05, 2017, 11:57:02 AM
I have fallen in love with this book, and never want it to end.  may start over again, and pick up some of the little things I missed on the way.
I feel the same way.  If I reread sections, I see more things each time.

When I started the book, I had the trouble I always have when a book introduces a batch of characters pretty much at once--keeping them straight.  I had to do a lot of back and forth, and it takes a while to sort out how different the ladies are, since superficially they all do the same things, and their characters are painted with tiny strokes--I love the way Gaskell can say so much with a tiny remark.  I mean to reread the whole thing now, and I know I will see a lot that I missed.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on February 05, 2017, 12:49:03 PM
MKaren - I would like to say a big thank you, which I am sure comes from all of us - for leading this very interesting and engaging discussion. I would never have sat down and read this book without your encouragement, and as a result I have really got back into my 'reading groove' and am devoting time to my books instead of feeling I shouldn't be so 'self-indulgent' when there is other stuff to be done.

Thanks!

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on February 05, 2017, 03:08:40 PM
Participating in this read has been a lot of fun. Thanks to all of you. How differently we all read. How different  in what  we look for and what we find. And nobody looks harder and finds more than Bellamarie. For example:

"I felt Gaskell did not give us enough of each character to connect with.  I sort of felt like the visitations, short and sweet and not long enough to get too involved in who they really were.  I felt I knew Deborah more than any of the other characters because she seemed to have the most interaction, and Miss Matty kept her alive in memories letting us get to know more about the person Deborah was."

My answer to that would be that Gaskell is more interested in relationships than she is in character: family, social, marital, and community and others. Is it Miss Matty keeping her sister Deborah alive or is it Deborah still controlling Matty from the grave? With a sister like that, who needs a husband? Martha is going to make quite a wife. Going into trade ( a tea shop) may not be genteel, but the transition is not that difficult. The fifteen-minute visitation rule is a fantastic village social gambit. Which can easily be broken by mutual understanding. Of course women can be Amazons. And being seduced is such a wonderful....
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on February 05, 2017, 09:47:32 PM
Thank you all, I am glad I did finish the book, it did get a bit hectic Gil the last few chapters. I am in the thick of redoing my three bedrooms living with paint cans, bare floors waiting for installation of laminate wood floors, trying to find all new decorating things for the new colors, and moving and packing up the rooms for the installers, on top of keeping up with three grandkids basketball and volleyball schedules. I'm ready for a vacation! 

Joan and Pat, I rarely ever read a book more than once, but the two of you make me think I may give this a second try when I am not so busy.

Karen, I want to thank you for sharing all your knowledge with us.  I was very happy to share this book discussion with you and everyone.

Jonathan, As usual you bring so much insight into the discussions.  I am always in awe of how you are able to get right to the heart of a book and express it so eloquently.  I am so happy to have you back. 

Rosemary, you always bring us right into the life of England by sharing your experiences with us. 

All those who participated I want to thank you, without you there would be no discussion.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on February 05, 2017, 10:25:29 PM
Jonathan, a lot of what you said leads to what I wanted to say about Miss Matty.  I think you're right that Deborah still controls Matty, and Matty keeps her alive in memory.  Look at Matty's name.  I assume the custom is the same as it was in Jane Austen's time.  Only the oldest unmarried sister takes the last name.  So Deborah was Miss Jenkins, and Matty was Miss Matty.  If Deborah had married, Matty would then would have been Miss Jenkins.  But when Deborah dies, Matty stays Miss Matty, too much in awe of Deborah to take her name.  And her money: despite being warned many times about her bank, she doesn't undo Deborah's decision to put the money there.

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on February 06, 2017, 11:34:41 AM
Matty isn't unhappy, and she is doing well at living alone, but nonetheless her life has a central tragedy, and it's partly Deborah's fault.  When she was young, she and Mr Holbrook fell in love, and he asked to marry her.  Unfortunately he is not quite in her class, though he could be almost there if he were a climber, but he deliberately emphasizes his common side.  Deborah and their father persuade Matty that it simply wouldn't do to marry beneath her, but she never forgets him, and when someone else makes her an offer, she refuses him, still in love with Holbrook.  When they meet again 30 years later, it's obvious that they still have strong feelings for each other.

She would probably have been happy with Holbrook.  He's a really good, kind person, and a thinking and reading man.  And Matty longed for children, and loved the ones she knew dearly.

So although Matty has a good life, with a happy ending (as far as the end of the book anyway), it could have been much richer, and she is still wistful when she thinks of that.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on February 06, 2017, 02:03:52 PM
Lady Glenmire faces the same choice 30 years later, and makes the opposite decision without a qualm.  Mr. Hoggins is also not quite a gentleman, and has some crude ways, but is a very good man.  It's easier for Lady Glenmire to do what she wants, though.  She is tough and independent, and doesn't care so much for appearances, and she's been married before, knows exactly what she wants.  Also, we're 30 years farther along in the blurring of social lines that came with the Industrial Revolution and the appearance of many newly rich and successful people.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on February 06, 2017, 03:55:52 PM
I did not care for Mr. Holbrook, when he returned he seemed a bit self absorbed.  I'm not convinced Marty would have been happily married to him.  But as we know especially back then being married, having children was enough for women.  Holbrook would have been gone most of the time anyway, so Mattty would have been happy with children of her own.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on February 06, 2017, 04:30:53 PM
You're right, Bellamarie, we don't know whether Matty would have been happy or not.  But she was in love with him, and thought that was what she wanted, so it threw a touch of sadness over her life.  I wonder if he was so self-absorbed before he spent a life alone?
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on February 07, 2017, 12:28:00 PM
But notice that Gaskell gives miss Mattie children by proxy. we leave her in the midst of Martha's growing family, able to spoil the children, as she would have her own grandchildren, if things had been different. A very satisfactory ending.

Which other of Gaskell's books do you recommend? I can get her complete works on kindle.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on February 07, 2017, 02:44:56 PM
Joan, I would recommend her biography of Charlotte Bronte. I read it years ago and enjoyed it. The two were acquainted, of course, and good friends. I found it interesting that Charlotte had never made it through Tennyson's poem In Memoriam and shared that information with EG. Grief overload in Hawarth no doubt. But I decided it was time I readJane Eyre, I never have.

And now, opening EG's bio of CB at random, I happened to see this:"She (CB) once told her sisters that they were wrong - even morally wrong - in making their heroines beautiful as a matter of course. They replied that it was impossible to make a heroine interesting on any other terms. Her answer was, 'I will prove to you that you are wrong; I will show you a heroine as plain and as small as myself, who shall be as interesting as any of yours.' Hence 'Jane Eyre,'said she, in telling her anecdote: "but she is not myself, any further than that."

Then we're directed to a footnote, which reads:

''Mr. George Smith tells us in the Cornhill Magazine how indignant Charlotte Bronte was with Thackeray for introducing her to his mother as Jane Eyre. He overheard her say to him, "No, sir! If you had come to our part of the country in Yorkshire, what would  you have thought of me if I had  introduced you to my father, before a mixed company of strangers, as ' Mr. Warrington'? " Thackeray  replied, "No; you mean 'Arthur Pendennis.'" "No, I don't mean Arthur Pendennis!" retorted Miss Bronte: "I mean 'Mr. Warrington,' and 'Mr. Warrington' would not have behaved as you behaved to me yesterday!" "The spectacle," adds Mr. Smith, "of this little woman, hardly reaching to Thackeray's elbow, but,  somehow, looking stronger and fiercer than himself, resembled the dropping of shells into a fortress. - Ed."

The lady was a literary Amazon.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on February 07, 2017, 05:14:30 PM
Joan. I concur with Jonathan that her biography of Charlotte Bronte is supposed to be one of the best.  I have not read all of her works, but I have read Mary Barton and North and South.  Both are works of social realism much like Dickens.  They are different from Cranford but they are well written and again wonderful portraits of the Victorian Age.Her novella Cousin Phyllis and her short stories are also supposed to be very good. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on February 07, 2017, 06:16:07 PM
It's a perfect ending for Miss Matty, not only having her brother Peter return whom she adores, but to as Joan points out, she will have Martha's children to enjoy as if they were her grandchildren. 

Joan if you did not join our discussion of Gakell's Wives and Daughters I highly recommend it.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on February 09, 2017, 10:02:10 AM
We seem to be pretty much finished with the discussion of Cranford by Elizabeth Gaskell.  Thank you all for your participation.  You have been a very strong group.  You dug into the text and drew great conclusions about the narrative and about the Victorian Era.  You were also so willing to relate the story to out own times and to your own lives.  The more I thought about it, the more I realized that Cranford transitions us from the romantic world of Jane Austen to the social realism that characterizes the mid-late Victorian Era.  Sometime you might want to try Mrs. Gaskell's first novel Mary Barton which is much more a protest against the conditions brought by the industrial progress of the 19th century.  If you have not done so, you might want to read something by George Eliot.  Many of us read Silas Marner in high school but there is also The Mill on the Floss.  Some literary scholars consider Eliot's Middlemarch the finest novel from the period.
     I don't know what the book club will be reading next, but keep checking. And if you have any book you think we might like to discuss, put it in the suggestions section or send me an email.  Thank you again.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on February 09, 2017, 10:27:48 AM
Karen, Thank you again for leading this discussion.  I really enjoyed the book and all the posts. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on February 09, 2017, 01:21:36 PM
Yes, it's been a truly splendid discussion.  We really dug down, and saw many layers in the book.  Although I had read it before, I didn't see half of what I got out of it this time.  Thanks to everyone for such good back and forth discussion, and to Karen for such a good job of leading.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on February 09, 2017, 02:14:22 PM
YES! Thank you Karen for your great work. And to all of us. As usual, WE ROCK!

and thanks foe all the suggestions.  can see the "complete works" is in my future.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on February 09, 2017, 02:51:57 PM
MKaren - thanks again for leading the group read, and for the helpful suggestions for further reading. I have to admit, though, that I read Middlemarch just a few years ago and wondered what all the fuss was about - I found it quite boring, which is no doubt a failing in me.

At the moment I am reading The Tortoise and the Hare by Elizabeth Jenkins, a 1950s novel about an upper middle class woman, her rather stuffy but attractive husband, their son, and other characters in their village - characters who, I believe, are about to turn the 'heroine's' life upside down. The 50s were of course another time of great social change - post-war society, the beginning of the end for many traditional values, and the education of those whose families could never previously have afforded to keep them in school, let along send them to university. I am so sad that we are now reverting to that situation - I was one of the lucky ones whose education was fully funded by the state, right through to graduation. I am now having to fork out for both of my daughters - I appreciate that I can (just!) afford it, and that our fees are nothing like those of US colleges, but I still feel they are going to exclude so many people. Our precious National Health Service - another 20th century invention - is also under threat. I would never have believed this could happen, but it seems every single thing is about money and profit now.

I wonder if we should read something like South Riding by Winifred Holtby, friend of Vera Brittain, feminist, and campaigner for women's right to be educated? This, her most famous novel, was published posthumously in 1936, as she died at the age of only 37 in 1935. This is what Amazon says about South Riding:

'The community of South Riding, like the rest of the country, lives in the long shadow of war. Blighted by recession and devastated by the loss, they must also come to terms with significant social change.Forward-thinking and ambitious, Sarah Burton is the embodiment of such change. After the death of her fiancé, she returns home to Yorkshire focused on her career as headmistress of the local school. But not everyone can embrace the new social order. Robert Carne, a force of conservatism, stands firmly against Sarah. A tormented man, he carries a heavy burden that locks him in the past.

As the villagers of South Riding adjust to Sarah's arrival and face the changing world, emotions run high, prejudices are challenged and community spirit is tested.'

The book won the James Tait Black Memorial Prize for 1936. The rights to the book were given to Somerville College, Oxford by Holtby on her death, which used royalties from South Riding and another of Holtby's books, Pavements at Anderby to fund a scholarship.

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: CallieOK on February 09, 2017, 06:11:45 PM
Thank you, Karen and others for a good discussion.  I didn't participate much - but I enjoyed reading and pondering over all of the detailed analyses.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on February 10, 2017, 05:24:02 PM
Thank you, Karen. Thank you, all who participated. Our little visit to Cranford was a lot of fun. And if you should decide to go up to Yorkshire and look around South Riding, I'm eager to go. My bookseller has it and it looks interesting. Thanks for the suggestion, Rosemary. I wish I could  see you change your mind about Middlemarch. I've just replaced my worn-out, marked up copy with an OUP edition with every intention to read it again.

But first, something a little different. Umberto Eco's The Prague Cemetery. Doesn't this sound interesting. Off the back cover:

"Nineteenth-century Europe -from Turin to Prague to Paris - abounds with the ghastly and the mysterious. Jesuits plot against Freemasons. Italian republicans strangle priests with their own intestines. French criminals plan bombings by day and celebrate Black Masses at night. Every nation has its own secret service, perpetrating forgeries, plots,  and massacres. Conspiracies rule history. From the unification of Italy to the Paris Commune to the Dreyfus Affair to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Europe is in tumult and everyone needs a scapegoat. But what if, behind all these conspiricies, both real and imagined, lay one lone man?"

Doesn't that sound like a lot of action?
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on February 11, 2017, 02:21:21 PM
Sounds like fun, Jonathan!  I saw The Naming of the Rose many years ago and remember enjoying it.  I'd be up for reading this book.

In one of my local charity shops I cam across the DVD of the BBC series of Cranford for just 99p! Haven't watched it yet, but looking forward to doing so.

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on February 11, 2017, 04:39:10 PM
Enjoy, Rosemary.  I saw it before I'd read the book, thought it was very good then, and it will be even better after the book.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on February 11, 2017, 05:30:57 PM
The video includes Cranford but also weaves in two more stories.  I will tell you what they are as soon as I check.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Mkaren557 on February 11, 2017, 06:00:48 PM
My Lady Ludlow and Mr. Harrison's Confessions both short stories or novellas by Mrs Gaskell.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on February 11, 2017, 06:53:03 PM
Rosemary what a great find, I bet you will love watching it now that you have read the book.  Enjoy!
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on February 12, 2017, 07:37:26 AM
Thanks for the information MKaren - and yes, Bellamarie, I'm just waiting for a quiet evening! Seem to have had a constant stream of visitors lately.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: ANNIE on February 12, 2017, 01:24:11 PM
I watched "Becoming Jane" on Netflix. True story about Jane Austin's life. It's quite a good movie! 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on February 13, 2017, 11:01:29 AM
Thanks Annie for the heads up, I will check it out.  I love Jane Austen.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on February 13, 2017, 09:55:27 PM
Doesn't all the world love Jane Austen? I have a book for you, Rosemarie. I've had it for a while and I keep meaning to read it. How about a discussion?

'Jane's Fame: How Jane Austen Conguered The World', by Claire Harman. It has a bit on Becoming Jane, but I don't have the time to post it. I want to catch the 10 PM news to see how our PM made out in Washington today meeting your new President.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on February 14, 2017, 03:26:44 AM
Jonathan, I think much of the Western world envies you your president. I know we do - indeed, we often wish we had stayed in Canada. Our wonderful assistant organist at the cathedral where I work has just been chosen as the new director of music for Christ Church Cathedral, Victoria, BC. He is Canadian and can't wait to get back there - especially as he will apparently be able to enjoy whale watching from his new home. We will miss him.

And the book sounds good too! I have to admit that having been forced through Austen at school, I haven't read any of her books for many years, though I've seen the Pride & Prejudice film with Keira Knightly. I do wonder if anyone benefits from having 'set books' imposed upon them in English lessons. I think if I were a teacher - one with all the time and resources in the world of course! - I would ask my students to read a book of their choosing and critique that, rather than dragging them kicking and screaming through Shakespeare, Dickens, Austen, the Brontes, Wordsworth, etc.

Rosemary
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: ANNIE on February 14, 2017, 10:43:52 AM
Oh, Rosemary, after seeing "Becoming Jane" and discovering that she only wrote SIX novels, I think I might watch one of them? Well, maybe I will look up Jonathan's book, too! Also, there are two books out with tempting titles. One I have read, "The Mysterious Death Of Miss Jane
Austen" and another entitled "What Would Jane Austen Do?". I am looking for that one now. Will be back soon!💕😊
I just put a hold on Jonathon's book which is non-fiction and I am first in line for one of their six books!
Back momentarily!

Well, I found What Would Jane Austen Do on Goodreads and after reading this review,I will just skip this one, for sure.

I am not sure why I am even giving this book two stars. I didn't really like it at all, but it wasn't the worst thing I have ever read and I downloaded it free on my Kindle so I am not out any money at least. From the description and title of this book you think that you are going to read a modern day twist on a genre Jane Austen perfected. Well, I think the author got confused on what kind of book she really wanted to write. The premise was sketchy to begin with. Two ghost sisters that haunt the home they lived in during Jane Austen's life. An unsuspecting guest sleeps in their old rooms and gets a visit from the two sisters who beg her to go back in time to right some wrong they believe they committed. She only agrees when she realizes that they know Miss Austen and she will get to meet the woman she has idolized. So the ghosts whip up all their energy and whisk her back in time. Okay.......... I managed to go with the early chapters thinking by the time she went back in time it would get good. However, it turns out the author really wanted to write a Harlequin romance novel set in the period of Jane Austen's many, much more enjoyable stories. The author bounces back and forth between period dialogue and modern scenes of sex and a liberated woman showing how much better she is than any other female during that time. In the last few chapters I began to wonder if I was even reading the same story in the beginning. The heroine of the book comes back to present day, but two years earlier than when she left so she can have a chance to re-live and make better choices for her future. It all ends with everything tied neatly in a bow and nothing worthwhile to remember the book by.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on February 14, 2017, 03:49:34 PM
Jonathan I am going to search for the book you mentioned,  'Jane's Fame: How Jane Austen Conguered The World', by Claire Harman.  I watched the televised news question and answer with President Trump and your Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and they both seemed very excited to work together in the future.  Nothing but good vibes came from both men.  I was very happy to see that.


Annie I will be looking for this one as well,   "The Mysterious Death Of Miss Jane Austen" If you decide to watch Austen's movies I highly recommend Emma.  It is my favorite with Romola Garai as Emma Woodhousnd and Jonny Lee Miller as Mr. George Knightley.   

Rosemary,  I can't imagine feeling it a torture to be forced to read Jane Austen in school.  I have read every one of her books and find them so enjoyable.  I love the humor spattered in with the life situations. Pride and Prejudice and Emma are my two favorite ones.

I'm not sure who decides which books to discuss, but Jonathan I like you have recommended a few which I think would be fun to discuss.  So far we are not discussing anything since Cranford has closed.  We probably should be posting these in the library section rather here since this one has closed. 



Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: Jonathan on February 15, 2017, 02:04:37 PM
dragged 'kicking and screaming through Shakespeare, Dickens, Austen, the Brontes, Wordsworth, etc.'

Haha. We all know what you are saying, Rosemary. And wasn't it the same thing with the vegetables at the dinner table. All in good time we realized what we were missing. And so I must ask you to forgive me, as well as Bellamarie, and most of all, perhaps, Adoannie, for leaving her out of it entirely. I should have addressed my post to Roseannmarie, with my reccomendation of Jane's Fame. I'm sorry. I was on a tear to catch the TV coverage from Washington.

Here's another beautiful book for Austen fans, one and all, that I've found on my shelf: Jane Austen, The World of Her Novels. Well written and beautifully illustrated. The author is, Deirdre Le Faye. I remember finding it at the thrift shop. With this charming inscription:

'Dear Aunt Mary, Remembering all our wonderful trips to England, especially the unforgettable Jane tour. Love, D.

I'm reading a biography of Benjamin Disraeli. Jane's Fame says he read Pride and Prejudice seventeen times. Not counting the forced read early on. I'm sorry.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: PatH on February 15, 2017, 06:24:58 PM
I beat Disraeli's record for Pride and Prejudice years ago, but don't reread it that often these days.  Disraeli wrote fiction too.  I've tried to read Sibyl three times, and always get stuck at the same place.  That happens to me sometimes with a book I want to read, and often, if I can get past that point, I like the book just fine.  Sibyl seems perfectly readable; you can see Austen's influence in the style.  It's got politics in it, though, and British politics of that time bewilder me.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on February 21, 2017, 08:49:06 PM
When my reading was curtailed I watched the video - yes, with a patch over the one eye - strange but as long as I am not needing any depth it works - anyhow the movie or maybe it was PBS - whatever the story line was there and I loved the actors - I also had an easier time relating to these ladies than I did while reading - for me I surprising since I usually enjoy a book far more than any director and group of actors interpretation but this time I really enjoyed the movie far more...
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: JoanK on February 23, 2017, 03:14:00 PM
ROSEMARY: I'm often saddened by stories of friends whose experiences in English Classes turned them against reading great literature. You are punished if you don't finish quickly, or understand the deep inner significance  of the sentence on page 235. Many are left feeling they are too stupid to read the "classics" which is not true.

I feel very strongly that this literature is our inheritance. And like any inheritance, it is ours" Ours to do whatever we want with. We can idealize it, or wrap the garbage with it! But before we wrap the garbage, don't you want to peek, and see what was left you? Even if you miss page 235 completely, maybe there's a gem somewhere that will delight you. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: bellamarie on February 23, 2017, 08:13:52 PM
JoanK.,  I so agree, I wish my schools would have imposed the reading the classics while I was in school.  Sadly the only two books we read in English class was H. G. Wells The Time Machine and Hiroshima..  I didn't think I would like them but am so glad I have read them.  They have stayed with me for over forty years.  I had never heard of the famous authors such as Austen, Bronte, Dickens, Wadsworth, etc.  The first time I read Austen was just years ago, I began with Pride and Prejudice.  It took me a few days to catch on to their dialect, but once I did, I was hooked and could not wait to read all the rest of her books.  They are our inheritances as you say, and I for one am glad to accept them and add them to my library and favorites. 
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: rosemarykaye on February 24, 2017, 03:47:51 PM
I am honestly not saying we should not read the classics! Just that I know that I, my children and my husband have all been put off them by the way they are taught in UK schools.

Having to dissect paragraphs then churn out 'character studies' for exams is soul destroying. Most teachers end up just saying 'here are the 10 key things you have to get into your answer', 'here is a standard character study of[i] Hamlet[/i]', etc. I am the only person in my family who loves Shakespeare, because they were all bored to death by having to read the plays out loud in class (is sitting at their desks, not acting) when they had no idea what was going on. Shakespeare only had any meaning for me once I had been taken by an aunt to see Richard II at Stratford and to the opera of Falstaff in France, yet I had 'done' Richard II, Henry IV (Parts I and II), Henry V, Hamlet, Macbeth, Anthony & Cleopatra, Midsummer Night's Dream, Othello, King Lear, The Merchant of Venice and the Tempest at school, and I got an A in my A-Level English Literature, largely through learning what i was supposed to say off by heart. I find the UK educational system deeply flawed. There is no time to enjoy the books, it is all about passing exams - and as for doing A Midsummer Night's Dream in first year (ie age 11) because it's got fairies in - honestly, I despair. I watched it again recently when there was a modern interpretation of it on the TV and I was amazed - a play full of magic and sexuality, all of which had completely passed us by. It's the same with Dickens - we were force fed the ones they thought 'easier' like Oliver Twist and David Copperfield. I only came to love Dickens when I read Great Expectations, Bleak House and A Tale of Two Cities as an adult.

And I fear I have to admit that I still can't stand Wordsworth!  I love John Donne and the Metaphysicals, but those Romantic poets just go on and on and on....

Rosemary

Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on February 24, 2017, 04:44:54 PM
To each his own as the saying goes but thank goodness I was exposed to many of the greats during my school years - and being the childhood reader that I was I gobbled up more and more of the writings by these classical authors that were readily available in the school library - never took a class in poetry but for me it is all about the words and stringing together a particular awe inspiring phrase that may not say much but is beautiful on the tongue as in the ear and so the romantics have it hands down for me - ah so - as we say - to each his own.
Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: ginny on March 04, 2017, 03:53:11 PM
It's amazing how much depends on the teacher one has. I'm just beginning to realize that. I had a teacher in music in school who just loved Gershwin. I was thinking of her the other day. She was a wonderful, kind lovely person but she LOVED George Gershwin and really REALLY REALLY wanted us to appreciate him. She tried so hard.

Try as she might, exude as she might, and she WAS enthusiastic,   to get us to relate to him, to this day when I hear Gershwin I cringe. I just did not/do not like him, did not/do not  appreciate him, (how could I have?) he did not speak to ME and I think that's a big reason that a lot of  the classics don't resonate with children: they simply  don't speak,  whether they are writer, poet, composer, what have you, to the child. 

I don't leave my face to face classes  to this day that somebody in the hall doesn't say to me, oh Caesar! We read him in the 3rd grade. Been there, done that.  BORING!

No you didn't read CAESAR in the 3rd grade, he's not boring, you read some watered down edited mess slanted to appeal to a child's biff bam super hero stuff.  I'm just beginning to learn HOW watered down, how edited.

We read Dickens A Tale of Two Cities in the 8th Grade. Know how I remember that? Because our teacher had us do drawings of the characters, illustrate the characters, pick the one we were most like.  I remember doing those drawings and I couldn't draw. And I couldn't relate, but I enjoyed it and  I remember Madame LaFarge and the heads chopped off to this day.

In my old age I am just now  beginning to realize what education is really all about.

And what a great shame, isn't it, that so many were turned away from what really could have been a lifelong source of pleasure and joy.

But I  still don't like Gershwin; I don't like Jazz, either, it's not the teacher's fault. I just don't like Gershwin.

And like Cat Stevens used to sing, if you want to sing out, sing out. And if you want to be free, be free. There's a million things to be, you know that there are. :)



Title: Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 04, 2017, 11:42:45 PM
I've been thinking on music during this time period - so many stories written about this time just before or during the Industrial Revolution and we forgot the Democratization the Industrial Revolution had on music - the average person's wages made it possible for them to attend concerts and the mass production of instruments along with the better development of strings for string instruments, even the piano made the cost of instruments to be within the grasp of most households - we do not see this in the  homes of the Cranford women but then they were not grasping the modernization of the Industrial Revolution.

The Romanticism movement popular at the time was a reaction against the Industrial Revolution. It involved pretty much any artistic medium, including literature and art.

As society was becoming more advanced and science progressed, people felt that they were becoming more and more distanced from nature (which they were.) Many people looked back to nature and tried to capture the mystery of it and the awe that it inspired. With that I wondered if the walk in the garden was an answer by Gaskell to the loss of nature she may have been feeling

Often music, poetry, paintings had themes of heroism or stories of an epic nature. Ghosts and spirits were another recurring theme in novels and poetry. The Romantic period focused on the sublime, things of such grandeur and scale that your emotions were ignited and inspired.

Beethoven is said to have started this movement in music, or at least bridged the gap between the Classical Music era and the Romantic period. His third symphony is an example of the theme of heroism.