SeniorLearn.org Discussions

Archives & Readers' Guides => Archives of Book Discussions => Topic started by: BooksAdmin on June 05, 2009, 11:41:41 AM

Title: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: BooksAdmin on June 05, 2009, 11:41:41 AM
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/perkinsfran/perkinscvr.jpg)
The Woman Behind the New Deal:
     The Life of Frances Perkins,
          FDR'S Secretary of Labor and His Moral Conscience

               by Kirstin  Downey


Links:
Kirstin Downey (http://http://www.bing.com/search?q=kirstin+downey&FORM=HPDTDF)
Frances Perkins Center (http://francesperkinscenter.org/)
Frances Perkins, Dept. of Labor (http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/history/perkins.htm)
Jane Addams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Addams)

PROPOSED NONFICTION BOOK DISCUSSION FOR AUGUST.

Publishers Weekly review:

"No individual-not even Eleanor Roosevelt-exerted more influence over the formulation of FDR's New Deal or did more to implement the programs than Frances Perkins (1880-1965). As former Washington Post staff writer Downey makes plain in this deeply researched biography, the first female Cabinet member was the primary shaper of such new concepts as unemployment insurance, the 40-hour work week and-last but not least-Social Security. At a time when the United States stands at the brink of another economic meltdown calling for sweeping federal interventions, Downey provides not only a superb rendering of history but also a large dose of inspiration drawn from Perkins's clearheaded, decisive work with FDR to solve urgent problems diligently and to succeed in the face of what seemed insurmountable odds.

The author: (who does a superb job, making dry material on politics, committees, policies, etc. very readable and interesting) KIRSTIN DOWNEY is a frequent contributor to The Washington Post, where she was a staff writer from 1988 to 2008, winning press association awards for her business and economic reporting.


______________________________

Discussion Leaders:   Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) and Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com)
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: Ella Gibbons on June 05, 2009, 03:54:58 PM
FRANCES PERKINS.  How often have you heard the name in your lifetime, and in what context?

Perhaps reading about the depression years?  The Triangle Shirtwaist fire?  Child Labor laws.  Social Security.

Our author, Kirsten Downey, states that Perkins' name was whispered about over the years, mainly by older people; however, when she began working for the Washington Post in 1988 and writing a column called "On The Job" she became very interested in our subject and began a decade-long probe into Perkins' life.

This book is the result!  It is fascinating!  It is historical and yet appropriate today, as our government looks for ways to get the country's citizens out of the recession and into meaningful jobs.

You will like the book!!

JOIN IN OUR DISCUSSION BEGINNING AUGUST 1ST!  POST A REPLY!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: HaroldArnold on June 08, 2009, 11:08:39 AM
This book will be a great discussion title.  It is both well researched and well written in an interesting manner.  It is an easy read.  Also more important it is timely since its subject, Frances Perkins led the federal reaction to the great 1930’s depression.  Her political and economic policies in response to the 1930’s crisis invites comparison with the well publicize Federal response of our current economic downturn today.  Our individual views of today’s hot issues and our comparison with the 1930’s approach should make an interesting debate.

Please accept this invitation to join this discussion.  Just post your intention here to join.  We will need at least 5 or 6 committed  participants to make this discussion and a dozen would be even better.

This will be an interesting return to book discussions for me.  I've been involved in some 20 previous discussions going  back to 1997.  Many were with Ella.  But its been near two years since the last one that was the biography of Arron Burr.  I look  forward to this one.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: Ella Gibbons on June 15, 2009, 12:53:26 PM
HELLO HAROLD!   HERE WE ARE ONLINE!  

ISSUING AN INVITATION TO ALL TO COME TO OUR BOOK DISCUSSION IN AUGUST.

When we get a quorum I will post a comment here:

http://francesperkinscenter.org/

There are a number of sites pertaining to Frances Perkins online and I understand there was a stamp issued in her honor.  I will look that up later.

She is a fascinating lady!

JOIN US





Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: ANNIE on June 15, 2009, 05:16:07 PM
Just checked this book out of our library and I will "pencil" it in for August but do remember that I am involved in "People of the Book" the first two weeks of August also.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: mabel1015j on June 16, 2009, 12:49:20 PM
Just marking my place...........see you in Aug.............jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: HaroldArnold on June 16, 2009, 09:42:58 PM
Thank you ADOANNIE and Mabel1015 for your interest and prompt response.  This should make an interesting discussion when it begins August 1st.  
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: kidsal on June 17, 2009, 03:45:50 AM
Ordered the book.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: Ella Gibbons on June 17, 2009, 09:58:28 AM
Hello JEAN, ANN, AND KIDSAL!  Friends!  

We are glad to see you joining in.  This is a beginning, a good beginning!

You may be interested in the link provided above to the new Frances Perkins Homestead in Maine.  A quote from that site:

" Many of the New Deal programs and initiatives that Frances Perkins helped to launch and bring to fruition have been abandoned or have dissipated. Even social security, one of her biggest accomplishments, called by FDR "the cornerstone" of his administration, has been threatened. The ideas and accomplishments of Frances Perkins were vital to the nation's recovery from the Great Depression and they remain pertinent, instructive, and inspiring today.

Frances went back to her home many times for a rest from the hectic life of Washington and now her home will be a center that will provide:

"a place for students, scholars, and policy makers to research and write about subjects related to and inspired by Perkins's dedication to improving the lives of working men and women."

JOIN OUR DISCUSSION FOR A THOROUGH VIEW INTO FRANCES' CAREER, HER ACHIEVEMENTS AND HER PERSONAL LIFE.


Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: Ella Gibbons on June 17, 2009, 10:11:37 AM
One small note:  in 1946 Frances Perkins published a book entitled THE ROOSEVELT I KNEW and our author, Kirsten Downey, used the book for research purposes.  It is, probably, out of print; our library does not have a copy.  If any one knows of where a copy can be obtained, please send me an email.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: Jonathan on June 17, 2009, 11:16:06 AM
Count me in. I'd like to participate. Good to see you back, Harold. You and Ella have led so many good discussions.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: HaroldArnold on June 17, 2009, 02:48:37 PM
Welcome kidsal and Jonathan.

Also I just discovered that Kristen Downey has a Web page,( http://www.kirstindowney.com ) with much interesting information about her career and the book.    It includes a Readers Guide with some15 comprehensive discussion  type questions raised by the book.  

We will contact her through this site to see if we can get her involved in the discussion.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: PatH on June 17, 2009, 08:56:32 PM
Ella, Abe Books has a lot of copies of "The Roosevelt I Knew".  You might want to check location and shipping time, as sometimes they come from weird places

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Frances+Perkins&sts=t&tn=the+Roosevelt+I+Knew&x=69&y=6 (http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Frances+Perkins&sts=t&tn=the+Roosevelt+I+Knew&x=69&y=6)

I'm almost certainly going to join the discussion, but am waiting until I get a chance to look at the book before committing.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: Ella Gibbons on June 18, 2009, 11:01:00 AM
JONATHAN, WELCOME!  So happy you are joining us as I know from past experiences you love history.

PAT, thank you so much.  I have ordered the book, fun to do.  An out of print book, I don't think I have ever owned one (although I probably have many in my book shelves that probably are so designated) and this is one I can use for our discussion of FDR.  He was her boss, the only one at times superior to her.  Amazing to think like that!  Your boss is the president of the United States!  And what a fellow he was!

I hope you join us.  The book is easy to read and will make an enjoyable discussion.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: Ella Gibbons on June 19, 2009, 06:27:08 PM
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/perkinsfran/perkins&cabinet250.jpg)

FDR signing the Social Security Act


THE BEGINNING OF THOSE MONTHLY SOCIAL SECURITY CHECKS MOST OF US (SOME OF US?) GET.  (note: Frances Perkins behind the presidenet)

JOIN US IN AUGUST FOR THE REAL STORY OF HOW IT ALL CAME ABOUT!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: Jonathan on June 21, 2009, 01:47:22 PM
That's an interesting photo, Ella. FDR has been momentarily distracted in his signing of the new Social Security ACT. Judging by the tilt of his head and his obviously cocked ears, one can almost hear him asking, what's that you said, Frances? My guess is that she has just replied to something said by her cabinet colleague on the president's left. Is that Harold Ickes? Who is the third person in black, on FDR's right? Wallace?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: straudetwo on June 21, 2009, 03:02:33 PM
The book is at our library. I plan to participate in the discussion.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: HaroldArnold on June 22, 2009, 10:10:58 AM
Thank you for your interest straudetwo.  The signs are looking good for an interesting discussion by a diverse group.  There is still a lots of room for more.  All are welcome to join!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: Ella Gibbons on June 22, 2009, 11:35:34 AM
Thanks, STRAUDE, for joining us and for your guess as to those in the FDR photo.  Good guess, I truly have no idea who they are; undoubtedly they are members of the cabinet or Congressmen.  But as you will note there is only one women, the most important member in that picture - Frances Perkins, Secretary of Labor.  

Here are Google sites for Wallace and Ickes, what do you think?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_A._Wallace

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_L._Ickes



Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: Ella Gibbons on June 22, 2009, 11:41:31 AM
An interesting story from the book illustrating what one person can do!

"Physician Francis Townsend, who worked for the health department of Long Beach, California, looked out the window one day (around 1934) and saw three elderly women rummaging in a garbage can for food.  He bellowed with rage:  "I want all the neighbors to hear me!.  I want God almighty to hear me.  I'm going to shout till the whole country hears."

And so he did.  Townsend started a grassroots political movement, urging the federal government to provide seniors with $200 a month.  Townsend Clubs operating like old-style Baptist Revival meetings, spread everywhere."
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: EvelynMC on June 22, 2009, 03:04:56 PM
Marking my spot.  I will participate in this discussion.

Evelyn
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: isak on June 22, 2009, 05:23:29 PM
Please count me in.  I am a big fan of both Perkins and FDR - and I learned first hand
from my mother and grandmother what the Social Security Act meant to ordinary people
in the Midwest  who maybe had a little bit of security in their lives after the Dirty Thirties
and all that.
isak
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: Ella Gibbons on June 22, 2009, 07:40:39 PM
WELCOME EVELYN AND ISAK!

What a good group we will have in August to discuss the book.

In these days where government interference (bank regulations, health insurance, etec) is debated online and in the news, what would it have been like for FDR and his team to get a radical bill for Social Security through Congress?  Was it a big fight?  
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: bellamarie on June 24, 2009, 06:37:04 PM
This sounds like a very interesting book for this particular time in our government.  I would love to join in August.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: PatH on June 24, 2009, 07:25:15 PM
Isak, when I see your screen name, I think of Isak Dinesen.  Any connection?  It's good to meet you here.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: Ella Gibbons on June 25, 2009, 06:50:38 PM
WELCOME BELLEMARIE!  

It is a good book and I'm looking forward to discussing this era in our history with all of you.  

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: EvelynMC on June 25, 2009, 10:09:03 PM
Our library did not have the book, so I ordered it today from Amazon.  It promises to be good reading.  I told my daughter about it, and she wants to read it when I've finished.  So I am already going to be able to pass this book along.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: bellamarie on June 26, 2009, 10:04:49 AM
My husband loves it when I get into a book discussion, because I always share what's going on with him.  He is a huge History buff, I personally can't retain a single darn date to save me.  I am lucky I remember our kids birthdays.  My hubby is looking forward to this book discussion too.  

I bought my book off Amazon so I can highlight and make notes in it.  
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: HaroldArnold on June 26, 2009, 03:03:33 PM
Welcome. Evelyn and Bellamarie.    I too ordered the book.  In my case it came from B&N.  As I read it I place many light pencil notes in the margin.  At the conclusion of the discussion I will spend an hour or so with a pink pearl eraser removing the notes.   Then I will pass it along probably by putting it in our Chandler Apartment library.

This discussion now has 7 or 8 committed participants and discussion of the book will begin August 1st.  Meanwhile the board will remain open for others to sign-up and for your casual comments relative to your preparations.   But let us avoid any posts relative to the actual discussion of the book.  That will begin August 1st.
 
Meanwhile ANYBODY ELSE OUT THERE IS WELCOME TO SIGN-UP
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: Ella Gibbons on June 27, 2009, 03:02:29 PM
If you do not have TIME magazine for this week (the July 6th issue), grab a copy if you can.  FDR and his New Deal is on the cover and a picture of Frances Perkins is inside with a number of excellent articles.  (save for our upcoming discussion)
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: serenesheila on June 29, 2009, 10:32:52 PM
I plan to participate in this discussion, too.  I am looking forward to reading this book.

Sheila
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: PatH on June 29, 2009, 11:08:06 PM
I'm glad I hadn't already bought my book, because I had the privilege of buying it tonight at a talk and book signing.  Downey is terrific!  She is vivacious and personable, and gives a talk that sucks you in and gets you hooked.  I think the book is going to do the same thing to me, so I'll have to exert my will to keep from starting it too soon.  She spent half the time on a prepared speech, and the rest on very full answers to the audience's questions, and I could have listened for a lot longer.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: Ella Gibbons on June 30, 2009, 11:30:17 AM
SHEILA, SO HAPPY TO HAVE YOU!

And a big THANK YOU TO PAT for going to hear a speech by our author, Kirstin Downey. 

It's difficult to put a good book aside isn't it Pat?  But do that because it is much more fun to read along with a group and discuss the book, the author, the era, the people in power at the time, their mistakes, their failures and triumphs.

Have we learned anything from history about the depression, how it can be avoided.  We'll try to understand, make a feeble effort.

"We learn from history that we learn nothing from history" - Bernard Shaw

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - Proposed - August
Post by: Ella Gibbons on July 01, 2009, 09:36:03 AM
GREAT NEWS!        GREAT NEWS!        BREAKING NEWS!

I wish I had balloons or noisemakers or something to tell you the exciting news!
Our author, KIRSTEN DOWNEY, is going to be with us when we discuss her book.

We are so looking forward to her participation.  We will get more news about it all later, but for now isn't it just grand.

Fun for all to have an author, one who has worked for ten (10) years to bring this book to press and in our hands.

We congratulate her on her success and look forward to hearing from her.


Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August
Post by: bellamarie on July 01, 2009, 10:12:28 AM
Wow!  Hooray for SeniorLearn.  I contacted Annie Barrows the author of the book The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society and she was kind enough to answer some questions through our emails, during our discussion although she was not able to actually be with us.  I have some personal emails from her I will cherish.  Our group was so honored to have her input.

I just finished the group discussion of the book Night Villa, the author Carol Goodman actually came in and was a part of our discussion.  It was FABULOUS!!!  She was so very kind to give us so much insight into her book.  

And now....the author Kristen Downey will be joining us with this book.  I can't believe how SeniorLearn is growing.  
WOOOOO  WOOOOO lucky us!!!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August
Post by: Ella Gibbons on July 01, 2009, 11:20:20 AM
Our participation with authors associated with the Washington Post goes back a few years starting with Katharine Graham’s Pulitizer Prize autobiography A PERSONAL HISTORY which we discussed in 1998.  You may recall she was the owner of the Post after the death of her husband and her son is now the publisher.  It was a great book with such good participation.  You will find it here:

http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/PersonalHistory.html

Two years later, in 2000,  we discussed Ben Bradlee’s book, A GOOD LIFE. Bradlee was the Executive Editor of the Post during the infamous Watergate scandals and it was a fascinating look into an era with which most of us are familiar.  The discussion is here:

http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/GoodLife.html

And now another association with the Post as Kirstin was a staff writer from 1988 to 2008 winning press award for her reporting and today is a frequent contributor to said newspaper.

HOORAY FOR THE POST AND SENIORLEARN!
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Balloons.jpg)



Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August
Post by: Ella Gibbons on July 08, 2009, 09:44:15 AM
 "Of course I think biography aspires to be an art, just as the novel does.  It is a piece of imaginative storytelling, as well as an historical investigation. It celebrates the wonderful diversity of human nature, and its aim is enlightenment. But biography is also a vocation, a calling. The dead call to us out of the past, like owls calling out of the dark. They ask to be heard, remembered, understood."    -  Richard Holmes.   

Oh, I do like that and wholeheartedly agree!

Richard Holmes is one of the most accomplished biographers of our time. With the publication of Shelley: The Pursuit thirty-five years ago, he began an exploration of the Romantic era that has illuminated the rich literary legacy of that age.  I might add that the book has almost 900 pages and I have never heard of the fellow, who is English.

Has anyone read anything by him?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August
Post by: Jonathan on July 08, 2009, 05:17:44 PM
Ella, where did you find that spine-tingling quote about the 'calling' a biographer should feel when she or he sets out to write a life? To hear it in an owl's call. How romantic.

Richard Holmes is among the very best. Really dedicated to the art of writing biography. And when the voices he's hearing are the literary greats of the past, how could he not acquire the art of telling their stories in an artful way. It must rub off, this listening.

I have four or five of his books in the house. I made his acquaintance after discussing Coleridge's  Rime of the Ancient Mariner on SeniorNet about eight or nine years ago. Holmes wrote a 2-volume bio of the brilliant, tortured life of Coleridge. The voice of Coleridge comes through clearly, or should one say darkly - as an owl's call. As a matter of fact, the subtitle of volume two is, Darker Reflections. Reading it is an experience of the romantic mind. It was recommended to me very highly by the guy in the bookshop, and I would like to pass that recommendation along to everyone else out there who is listening.

I also have the Shelley biography, still unread. Doesn't that subtitle, The Pursuit, soung inviting?

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August
Post by: HaroldArnold on July 09, 2009, 06:10:32 PM
Biographies have been very popular as the source of nonfiction discussions on the old Seniors net books boards.  My very first discussion in 1997 was "Undaunted Courage" by Stephen Ambrose that is a biography of Meriwether Lewis.  Others that I can remember right now were biographies of Benjamin Franklin, Ben Bradlee, and Aaron Burr.  Ella was involved in these.  I think there were more, perhaps Ella you might remember some others.

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August
Post by: Ella Gibbons on July 09, 2009, 06:44:25 PM
Hi JONATHAN, I must get a book by Richard Holmes, I have missed something obviously.  Isn't that a good quote?  Investigating, listening, to those in the past, romantic isn't it?

There is a possibility that someone from the Frances Perkins Center (see link in the heading) may participate in our discussion in some manner.  The executive director was out of town but her assistant answered.  We'll have quite a good crowd to investigate and listen to Frances Perkins and her knowledge of the years of the depression, FDR and all his political friends, Eleanor, the social scene and her own tragic life.

At a time when our economic news is worsening, perhaps the past can give us ideas for how to survive the present.  

My State of Ohio is in financial trouble as are other states.  It is in our constitution that we must live within our budget so policies and departments are being threatened, libraries included.

Tighten the belt, pull in the stomach, keep the purse hidden.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August
Post by: EvelynMC on July 13, 2009, 04:53:30 PM
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/perkinsfran/perkinscvr.jpg)

The Woman Behind the New Deal:
     The Life of Frances Perkins,
          FDR'S Secretary of Labor and His Moral Conscience

               by Kirstin  Downey


Links:
Frances Perkins Center (http://francesperkinscenter.org/)
Frances Perkins, Dept. of Labor (http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/history/perkins.htm)
Jane Addams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Addams)
[Frances Perkins Speech (http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=250364&ac=PHnws)

Discussion
August   l -  8    
August  9 - 15    
August 16 - 22    
August 23 - 31

Schedule
Chapters 1-9
Chapters 10-18
Chapters 19-27
Chapters 28-38


FOR CONSIDERATION
Had you ever heard of Frances Perkins before?  Why do you think she has been forgotten by history?  

Is there anything in her early life that predicted the course her future would take?

How did the era in which she grew up impact her life?

What is it about Chicago that  has seeded many of our VIP’s in government?  (ex. Jane Adams, Frances Perkins, Barack Obama)

How did her stint as a volunteer distributing food baskets and milk to children at Hull House lead to her life altering career?

Her ideas were often shocking and way ahead of her time.  What impressed you?

The plight of poor immigrants moved Perkins throughout her life.   What are some of the first evidences of this in the book and how do you feel that they compare with the problem of immigration today?

Had you ever heard of the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire before?   What did Perkins mean when she “recognized that tragedies could be turned into positive events?”  Does that statement resonate with one from Rahm Emanuel who said “ Never let a crises go to waste”

Perkins believed that it was important to her career and her goals to network with wealthy and important people and she made a great effort to do this.  What is your opinion?  

Perkins' "Notes on the Male Mind" (pg.45) may seem amusing to us; however, are any of them applicable?
______________________________
Discussion Leaders:   Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) and Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com)



I got my book and will start reading it soon. Our library didn't have it, and although I could have requested it, by the time they got it and put it on the shelf, our discussion would be over. So I just bought it. It looks like it is going to be an interesting read.

Evelyn

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Barb Burt on July 20, 2009, 11:03:04 AM
Greetings! I'm Barbara Burt, executive director of the Frances Perkins Center at the Perkins homestead in Newcastle, Maine. We're a  nonprofit formed in 2009 to honor the accomplishments of Frances Perkins--the first female Cabinet member, FDR's secretary of Labor, and principal author of the New Deal--and to carry on her commitment to the rights and needs of working people around the world.

Maine Public Television recently did an excellent segment about Frances Perkins and the Center on their program "Maine Watch." It features Kirstin Downey, and I thought you might enjoy watching it (the segment on Frances Perkins starts about 11 minutes into the program): http://www.mpbn.net/Television/LocalTelevisionPrograms/MaineWatch/tabid/477/ctl/ViewItem/mid/2547/ItemId/11251/Default.aspx (http://www.mpbn.net/Television/LocalTelevisionPrograms/MaineWatch/tabid/477/ctl/ViewItem/mid/2547/ItemId/11251/Default.aspx)

There was also an excellent article last April in the Maine Sunday Telegram: http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=250364&ac=PHnws (http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=250364&ac=PHnws)

And Maine Public Radio did a feature for their program, "Maine Things Considered": http://www.mpbn.net/News/MaineNews/tabid/181/ctl/ViewItem/mid/1858/ItemId/9844/Default.aspx (http://www.mpbn.net/News/MaineNews/tabid/181/ctl/ViewItem/mid/1858/ItemId/9844/Default.aspx)

Finally, don't forget to visit our web site, http://www.FrancesPerkinsCenter.org (http://www.FrancesPerkinsCenter.org).

I look forward to following the discussion!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on July 20, 2009, 01:51:15 PM
Thank you for all that info, Barbara. So glad to hear that there is a site that teaches her history. I'm looking forward to viewing your links.............jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on July 20, 2009, 09:15:44 PM
BARB BURT: WELCOME!

This will be a tremendous discussion --- I can't possibly miss it. I'm also involved in leading part of the People of the Book discussion in August, but will be in here as much as I can.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Judy Laird on July 20, 2009, 10:26:28 PM
I put the book on my Kindle and hope to read it soon.
I am a avid FDR and Eleanor fan.
Ella there is a gift shop in the entrance building at the
Little White House and has many books on both Roosevelts.
We were at the FDR park last Oct. where they had put up a
new statue of FDR sitting down and his leg braces showing.
Many people have visited to see it.He had his dinner up there
when ever possible (white table cloth silver and all the trimings
while the secret service stood up  on the road. Some people who
live there think that is where he really died. A man in Hamilton told
me a long story about it.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on July 21, 2009, 02:10:06 PM
I get my impressions of Hyde Park from the mystery story written by Eliot Roosevelt with his mother, Eleanor, as the detective."Murder at Hyde Park". I heartily recommend it. As literature, it isn't, but it's worth the price of admission for the picture of the dignified Eleanor crawling through the woods looking for a murderer. And for the comments about FDR's mother.

It's one (the best) of a series, well worth reading for Eliots impressions of his parents (I'm not sure that the family was speaking to him after some of the books).
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on July 21, 2009, 05:26:40 PM
BARBARA!  HOW GREAT YOU REGISTERED AND ARE POSTING!

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING, WELCOME!!!


As we told you in our email, our discussion will start August 1st and we will be dividing the book into four-week segments.  There is so much to cover, so much history and we all look forward to it with great anticipation.

FDR was my president, WWII was my war, my family did not make it through the depression intact as a family;  it was very sad.

BUT, AND THIS IS A BIGGIE!  THIS DISCUSSION IS NOT CENTERED ON FDR, BUT ON HIS SECRETARY OF LABOR!!! 

THE WOMAN BEHIND THE NEW DEAL!!!  AND WHAT A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN WHO HAVE POLITICAL ASPIRATIONS!


This is going to be just great.  KIRSTIN WILL BE HERE ALSO!!

THANKS AGAIN, BARBARA!

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on July 21, 2009, 08:49:09 PM
Barbara, I feel as if I know you now after meeting you online in the video of the Perkins Center.  Please ask Thomlin and Chris if they would like to join us in our discussion; here they can meet a cross section of America as we discuss past and present problems of labor.

FP (Frances Perkins) was an excellent speaker but she had nerve to say something sarcastic to Jimmy Hoffa's lawyer in his presence!  And  I would love to know what she is whispering in FDR's ear; obviously something that is making him laugh.  As Chris said, the two of them were ahead of their time and were therefore linked via programs that are beneficial to all of us today.

Thanks for the links, I enjoyed them.

Today's Secretary of Labor appointed by President Obama:

http://www.dol.gov/_sec/welcome.htm
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on July 22, 2009, 10:04:44 AM
"This precious child" - Social Security by Frances Perkins

I was so intrigued, BARBARA, by the clear voice of Frances in the audio here:

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=250364&ac=PHnws

Her voice is distinctive and the picture of she with Eleanor is most unusual!  Eleanor looks so tall!  And so forbidding and we know she wasn't at all.  And throughout her speeches and photographs Frances seems so humorless and we also know she wasn't.  I am going to put that clip of her speech in the heading.

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on July 22, 2009, 02:52:39 PM
There is nothing like hearing her actual voice to make her come alive. Thank you.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: EvelynMC on July 22, 2009, 05:11:13 PM
Ella: Thank you for that clip.  I enjoyed hearing her voice.

Barbara Burt:  Thanks for all those links.  I am going to go back and view them.

Evelyn

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on July 23, 2009, 12:09:26 PM
There are fifteen of us who have signed on to talk about the book. That should make for an interesting exchange of opinions and points of view. I had the privilege a few weeks ago of following the progress of my wife as she was reading this life of Frances Perkins. I've never known her to be so eager to comment on something she was reading. A great story she assured me.

There's little danger, it seems to me, that Frances will be upstaged by anyone, including FDR himself. I've taken a peek, and already on page one it's Frances who shows up with her agenda for an interview with the president-elect, proposing a 'fundamental and radical restructuring of American society.' On this occasion it seems FDR was left speechless.

How interesting to hear about Eliot Roosevelt revealing family secrets in his novels. Perhaps it's like Philip Roth once said:

"When a writer is born into a family, the family is finished."
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on July 23, 2009, 04:59:45 PM
JONATHAN: not family secrets, exactly. I was thinking of the scene in one of Elliot's books where Franklin wakes up in bed with his secretary. Eleanor wanders in from another room, and the three of them calmly discuss the day's agenda, with F and secretary still in bed.

It's known that FDR had an affair with his secretary, but I doubt if any of them were that casual about it.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on July 23, 2009, 05:35:48 PM
What an amazing bedroom scene. A wonderful example of upper class aplomb and imperturbability in a difficult situation. And, of course, observing the rule of not arguing in the presence of a servant. One has to wonder, though, how they all made it through the 'planned' day.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on July 24, 2009, 11:31:03 AM
Thank you Kirstin Downey and Barb Burt for your presence here.  We appreciate your very special contribution to the discussion.  Barb I just listened to your the Maine Public Radio link.  Thank you for this contribution.

An to all participants our start is just 8 days away.  Ella and I hope all of you will be active in posting your comments about the book including opinion and questions.  We hope to see all of you here just one week from tomorrow.

Harold

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on July 24, 2009, 08:58:34 PM
I got my book!! For once Amazon was a lot quicker than they promised. Since I ordered something else too, I qualified for the free shipping which is slower, and I was afraid it wouldn't come til the last minute.

Now PatH tells me: "read the first chapter. You'll be hooked!"
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on July 25, 2009, 11:44:22 AM
HELLO TO ALL!  All 15 of us as JONATHAN posted.  

I am so eager to start the discussion, and you will be hooked, JOAN, once you start.  Kirstin writes so well.  

But WAIT, we will post our Reading Schedule today or tomorrow.  Please, don't be ahead of the crowd as you may not remember it all once we start the conversation!!

Eliot Roosevelt wrote mysteries?  I never knew that!  The only facet of the FDR sons I ever knew was the one (was it James?) who so fervently wrote to all recipients of SS for some years; I believe he was the Chairman of a Committe to Save the "precious child" that Frances talked of so eloquently.  Over the years, I am sure the trust fund has been eroded and challenged but somehow social security survives.  For how long is a matter of conjecture.

On BookTV not long ago I heard a statement by some author whose name has been forgotten but not his ideas.  He stated that FDR's presidency changed government - his programs and policies upheld the idea that government should take care of people.  Previously people muddled through on their own.

However, our discussion will flesh out those ideas in a surprising way.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on July 25, 2009, 02:33:58 PM
ELLA: " He stated that FDR's presidency changed government - his programs and policies upheld the idea that government should take care of people.  Previously people muddled through on their own".

Not just this author, but many have noted this. Of course, these ideas were not FDR's (or Perkins'), but were "in the air" at the time, made more urgent by the great depression. Some give Roosevelt credit for helping to pulling the country out of the depression; others arguie that nothing really helped until WWII brought a flood of war spending. In either case, it's hard to imagine now an industrialized country without some measure of "taking care of people".
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on July 25, 2009, 05:54:44 PM
'... the "precious child" that Frances talked of so eloquently.'

So there was a baby after all. The labor wasn't in vain. And Frances should be allowed her maternal pride. I hope she gets all the honor due to her, in this biography.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on July 25, 2009, 06:21:47 PM
Yes, she will, JONATHAN, just ask your wife who has finished the book.  

Hi JOAN, I've heard those remarks also.  Will there ever be a definitive answer on this subject?

I can recall stories from my grandmother and others of people muddling through with no SS or any government help whatsoever.  Times are better for all, as you noted.  

Another opinion on BookTV and, as we are not talking about the book yet, I think I can quote another author who said that FDR's presidency changed America forever from an isolationist goverment to one with a world-view and we can never return to what was a more innocent time.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on July 26, 2009, 08:40:18 PM
'...FDR's presidency changed America forever from an isolationist goverment to one with a world-view...'

Ella, I wonder that no one has challenged you on that statement. Granted that America came out of WWII as a superpower, and willing to assume the responsibility of getting the world back on its feet (I'm just reading a bio of Lucius Clay who did such an amazing job as military governor of Germany, and, of course there was MacArthur in Japan).

As for getting America to take a world view, I think Wilson with his Fourteen Points and his fight for a League of Nations, deserves more credit than FDR.

Furthermore, I believe America was never really isolationist, and never, ever innocent. Let's start with the 1812-14 invasion of Canada. Canadians like to think they won that one, but it was the U.S. that lost the battles but won the war, in the sense that they came out of it a united nation. A big factor in the Union that Lincoln was determined to preserve. A decade or two later it was the Mexicans who felt the American expansionist surge. Mid-nineteenth century saw American gunboats on the Yangtze, and American warships in Japan's inland seas. In the 1890s America took the Phillipines from Spain, and thereby hangs a tale:

Victory over Spain came in 1892. A NY reporter looking for a story found himself  in the Lower East Side of town on a very Jewish street, and was impressed, as well as puzzled, by the dancing and singing in the streets...a huge celebration. Looking for answers he went into a delicatessen, saw an elderly Jew sitting alone at a table, lost in thought. Of course they're celebrating, the rabbi told the reporter. After four hundred years, God remembers. In 1492, Spain exiled the Jews.

Perhaps all along America has been doing the work of the Lord.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on July 27, 2009, 08:36:47 AM
Thanks, JONATHAN, for your views!  As always I am impressed by your knowledge of US history; I don't know a thing about Lucius Clay and would like to learn.  Most of us have heard of McArthur's heroic administration of Japan after WWII, although I have never read a book about that either.

FDR or Wilson?  But Wilson wasn't very successful with his campaign for the League of Nations.  My memory is not all that great but what I remember is that the United States would not join because of fear that we would be drawn into European alliances and wars, etc.  In other words, we still preferred to go it alone, so to speak.  

Am I right or wrong?  We must read and discuss a book about WWI and Wilson one of these days.

FDR was spectacularly successful, not only in the war effort, but in his diplomatic efforts at joining America with other nations.  

FDR, as you will see when we read the book, did not allow as many Jews to immigrate to the USA from Germany and other war-torn countries as some of his advisors believed possible.  There were many reasons, all of which we will discuss.

We are going to have fun here, aren't we?  History is not only interesting, but debatable.  It's not a dead subject but is open to all interpretations.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on July 27, 2009, 08:52:47 AM
JONATHAN, we discussed the book, PARIS 1919,  in 2004.  I don't have time at the moment to skim through it; were you a participant? 

We must get Harold in here who possibly has a better memory than I do as to the Wilson era and the 14 Points of Light.

http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/Paris1919.html
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on July 27, 2009, 09:14:27 PM
ELLA: "FDR, as you will see when we read the book, did not allow as many Jews to immigrate to the USA from Germany and other war-torn countries as some of his advisors believed possible.  There were many reasons, all of which we will discuss".

I remember Doris Kearns Goodwin's discussion of that point in "No Ordinary Time". It will be interesting to compare the two. In general, it's interesting to see how different historians, perhaps with access to different sources or different points of view, can see historical events differently.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on July 27, 2009, 09:31:22 PM
Yes, it is, JOAN.  I don't have the Goodwin book so put a marker in those pages that tell about the immigration restrictions during WWII, okay?

I just looked up the Department of Labor building and this shot shows Frances Perkins name on the front of the building; you may have to zoom in on it but wouldn't she be proud?  Wouldn't anyone? 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/US_Dept_of_Labor.jpg

What always amazed is the FBI building named after J. Edgar Hoover.  Do you think he deserved it?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: serenesheila on July 28, 2009, 03:20:03 PM
I just read the first three chapters of our book.  I am hooked!  I am so glad that we will begin our discussion in just a few days.

Well, I finally finished reading "Savage Peace".  It was one of the best books I have ever read!  The author is Ann Hagedorn.  I learned so much about the period following the first world war.  I am shocked about a number of things about what Wilson did, and didn't do.  Wilson was totally unwilling to take any federal action concerning the high rate of lynching of African Americans.  I was stunned to learn about the number of Black Americans who served in combat in Europe who were beaten, and lynched when they returned home.  Anarchists, and blacks were the target of the FBI.  J. Edgar Hoover, led raids against both, during  1919, and the early 1920s.  A man named Palmer was the head of the bureau.  He resigned to run for President in the early 1920s.  J. Edgar was named to run the beaureau.  He was only 26 years old, at that time.  I highly reccomend this book.

Sheila
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on July 28, 2009, 10:09:18 PM
With JOAN'S post in mind:

I wonder what advice FDR was getting from his Secretary of Labour, regarding immigration policy. The Bureau of Immigration, was after all a part of FP's department.

When I first learned that immigration was the concern of the Sec of Labor, I couldn't see the connection. It seems the fact that most immigrants were working class was the reason for finding a home for the Bureau of Immigration within the Dept. of Labor. My source (REDS: McCarthyism in 20C America, by Ted Morgan) also points out that the Secretary was the ultimate authority in all deportation proceedings  involving troublesome immigrants. Anarchists, Bolsheviks, union organizers, etc.

SAVAGE PEACE sounds interesting. It's disturbing to hear about Wilson's unwillingness to address the sorry lynching issue. FDR, too, I believe, steered clear of it. Did they have constitutional reasons? Was there no federal offence in these dastardly acts?

Is it any wonder that there is still a lot of anger among African Americans? And hasn't the Henry Louis Gates, Jr. affair brought it to the fore? The latest is that Prof Gates is going to make a documentary out of it. A learning experience, as he puts it. I wonder if President Obama will play himself.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on July 29, 2009, 11:55:33 AM
Jonathan in Messaged #60 made a pretty good case supporting the view that the U.S. was never really as isolationist as our history has pictured it.  He might also have added the Theodore Roosevelt administration with the sending the Fleet to show the flag around the world and his taking on a U.S. role in the negotiations ending the Russian-Japanese war.  I think though it was a relatively small element of the U.S. population with a vision range extending beyond the borders.  This was certainly the case throughout the South and West and even the mid-west which remained strongly isolationist through the 1930’s’

 I started to become aware of current world events when I was about 9 years old.  My family had just moved back to San Antonio after 4 years in Houston where I started school.  My first remembered major world new story was the death of England’s King George V and the succession crisis that followed.  I was in the high 4th grade where we listened to extensive radio coverage.  Then in 1937, 38, and 39 there was the Chrissies involving German territorial demands on Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland that led to the beginning of WW II.
 
In the summer of 1940 my family made an automobile trip to Washington, D.C.  By then I had my own short wave radio and was listening the BBC and Berlin radio for details of the German Blitz in France and the Dunkirk Evacuation of the British army.  In Washington, I met our Congressman, Paul Kilday,  and sat in a seat in the Senate Gallery watching a floor debate on the first peace time draft bill.  By that time I was quite prepared for the Role that the U.S. took in WW II, the peace and the cold War that followed as well as the governmental and social changes in the U.S that followed through the last half of the 20th century.


Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on July 30, 2009, 11:10:47 AM
THANKS, SHEILA for the book recommendation.  I'm making a list here.  JONATHAN, recommended a book about Lucius Clay. 

Much to speculate about here, but FIRST AND FOREMOST, our book WOMAN BEHIND THE NEW DEAL, the discussion!

BEGINS SATURDAY - THIS SATURDAY!

We are putting a few questions about the first week's recommended reading in the heading today.  These are just for consideration as you start the book and to facilitate the conversation.

WE ARE LOOKING FORWARD TO IT!! 

YEAH!!  TO BEGIN THE BEGUINE (did I spell that correctly?)
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on July 30, 2009, 11:24:33 AM
FOR YOUR LISTENING PLEASURE:


CURTAIN #1 -  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYHXTJxoZqo&feature=related

CURTAIN #2 -  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDdIxGzv4fQ
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on July 30, 2009, 02:26:02 PM
As much as I like classical music and opera singing, the classical performance didn't GET IT! The second was much better.

Or even Artie Shaw:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LAOFtrmSkQ&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LAOFtrmSkQ&feature=related)
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on July 31, 2009, 05:28:10 PM
WOW!  I have read all your posts and am impressed with all of your knowledge about history.  I feel like this is going to be way above my head, although I am not known to back down from a good challenge of learning new things.  I came so close to failing History in high school my teacher told me he would give me just enough of a passing grade so he would not have to see me the following year.  So...let the discussion begin.  I have read the first few chapters and already am amazed at the spunk of Frances Perkins.  She was a lady way ahead of her times.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on July 31, 2009, 11:44:30 PM
I do remember Frances Perkins as Roosevelt’s Secretary of labor ages back when I was a kid from the time I first entered elementary school in Houston TX in February 1933 through my graduation from Brackenridge High School in May 1944 to enter the Navy.  Yet I have absolutely no recollection any news events in which her name was mentioned though I now realize there were many.   But I was surprised when her name came up on our nonfiction discussion board as the subject of Kirstin Downey’s new Perkins biography.  We had been considering offering a discussion of one of several biographies of Theodore Roosevelt or one of Andrew Jackson.  I was surprised again when opinion seemed to jell around the Perkins book, but when Ella announced she would offer it and asked me to join her,  I did not hesitate a moment.  Ella and I have collaborated in many nonfiction discussions; it must have been at least a dozen going tack to about 1999.  Many of these were biographies.

When I got the book and had read it for the first time I had come to realize that I had indeed overlooked an impressive American who had been a real force in molding my country into the entity that it had become in the last half of the 20th century.  Thank you Ella for choosing this book, and initiating this discussion.  And thank you Kirstin Downey for writing it.  This discussion has prospects of being one of the best our group has offered.  

Let the discussion begin!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 01, 2009, 12:27:22 AM
OH, THIS IS JUST GREAT!  An early start on our book discussion!

BELLAMARIE and HAROLD, HELLO, GOOD MORNING!

This is such a good biography, so well written, as those of you who have started reading are well aware!  Kirstin draws us into the life of Frances Perkins, who is described as being sturdy, plain and dependable.  Even as a child!

And one has to wonder what that would to a young girl?  And many of us will recall another famous lady from that same era who believed she, also, was plain and awkward.  We will encounter her in later chapters!

I recognized the name of Frances Perkins.  The name was vague, pushed back somewhere in my memory and I didn't know her as Secretary of Labor nor did I know of her many accomplishments.

Somehow she was in the news along with FDR.

SO, HOW MANY OF YOU RECOGNIZED THE NAME??  

What interested you in reading of her life? 

Our author, Kirstin Downey, and Barbara Burt, Executive Director of the Perkins Center in Maine, both have indicated they will be involved in some way with our discussion.

Also, Perkins' grandson, Tomlin, may participate.

What a pleasure to have them and you here!

HAROLD AND I ARE ENTHUSED ABOUT THE BOOK AND THE DISCUSSION.  WE AWAIT YOUR COMMENTS!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on August 01, 2009, 01:35:14 AM
Marking a place - I am in awe at the collection of readers in this discussion.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 01, 2009, 09:57:22 AM
Regarding current name, recognition-- I have been asking many of the seniors living here at the Chandler Apartments the question, Who was Frances Perkins.  In all I asked about 20 individuals most ranged in age from their early eighties to early nineties.  I would say that most like my self recognized  the name and most of these remembered she had been Roosevelt's Secretary of labor.  Only a few, about 30% had no recognition of her.

This afternoon I will be working at the Indian Exhibit at the Institute of Texan Cultures.  I will ask the question to visitors that will constitute a across section of all ages.  I suspect the no recognition group will be larger.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 01, 2009, 10:56:21 AM
Interesting Harold; let us know the results of your poll.

Frances Perkins:  Born 1880, died 1965

She grew up in the middle class of Yankee country; she had Yankee values. Her father had a stationery and office supply store.  Do you remember, those of you who lived in small towns, stationery stores?  Wonderful to wander through when I was young; we wrote letters, we loved pretty stationery. 

Letters are such an important heritage and I'm not sure how future historians will put together the life and times of people living today.  We write emails!

Or a person who has affected history will write their own biography such as President Clinton did and as President Bush is doing.  They kept diaries??

Is it perhaps a common thread among ambitious women that they had a close relationship with their father and not to the women in their family?  It was so with Frances. 

And as KD tells us she grew up in a time when the country was changing rapidly which would affect Frances her whole life and give impetus to her career.

What are your thoughts?  



Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 01, 2009, 12:41:29 PM
It's nice to find the discussion underway. Tell us again, Ella, how you came upon this biography of a vaguely remembered Frances Perkins. Sure, I remember the name from my high school U.S. history class. In an N.B. sort of way, that FP was the first woman to hold a cabinet position. Quite an achievment. Since then, it seems to me, she is mentioned in every history or bio of the period, but only just in passing. That should change with this excellent biography, and the newly created Francis Perkins Center in the family homestead, the scene of FP's happy childhood.

I like Ella's characterization. She was 'sturdy, plain and dependable.' No doubt she was that to get as far as she did. But she sure had a lot of adventure along the way. Why, I wonder. did she turn her back on her comfortable middle-class upbringing to look for company among those in the upper class, and a personal satisfaction working among the poor and forgotten?

And what a whirlwind those early years,after college, trying to find herself. Try this, go there, move on.... A year of two in Chicago. Off to Philadelphia for about as long. Then it's off to New York. Within a few years she's ready to try marriage, only to try walking away from that after two years.

Through it all is her devotion to social work, and acquiring political smarts. At first, straight out of college, to help the poor in a dire, dysfunctional family situation, FP's solution would have been to call the police. A few years later, to help out a desperate family, FP enlists the help of the Tammany Hall boss.

Just watch her. She's going places.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 01, 2009, 01:49:30 PM
Life at Mount Holyoke

The most impressive thing for me in the early chapters was Frances's education at Mount Holyoke.  The $250 per year that covered tuition and room and board, apparently for the school year (fall and spring terms) sounds unbelievable,  Of course each girl had to do clean-up work for 50 minutes each day.  I was also surprised that her major was chemistry and physics.  The book does not mentioned any straight economics theory courses taken by her.  Of course her favorite course was an American Economic History course that certainly gave her a basic dose of economic theory.  In fact it was a fine very early first preparation for her role as a social worker and Labor Secretary.

Is Mount Holyoke still around today?  If so I bet there it is quite different from Frances's day

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 01, 2009, 01:53:39 PM
Come on in all you gals and guys who are up for this discussion.  Where are you?  Come on in with your thoughts, comments, and questions.  The discussion is under way, lets discuss!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: EvelynMC on August 01, 2009, 01:56:15 PM
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/perkinsfran/perkinscvr.jpg)

The Woman Behind the New Deal:
     The Life of Frances Perkins,
          FDR'S Secretary of Labor and His Moral Conscience

               by Kirstin  Downey


Links:
Frances Perkins Center (http://francesperkinscenter.org/)
Frances Perkins, Dept. of Labor (http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/history/perkins.htm)
Jane Addams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Addams)
[Frances Perkins Speech (http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=250364&ac=PHnws)

Discussion
August   l -  8     
August  9 - 15     
August 16 - 22     
August 23 - 31

Schedule
Chapters 1-9
Chapters 10-18
Chapters 19-27
Chapters 28-38


FOR CONSIDERATION
Had you ever heard of Frances Perkins before?  Why do you think she has been forgotten by history? 

Is there anything in her early life that predicted the course her future would take?

How did the era in which she grew up impact her life?

What is it about Chicago that  has seeded many of our VIP’s in government?  (ex. Jane Adams, Frances Perkins, Barack Obama)

How did her stint as a volunteer distributing food baskets and milk to children at Hull House lead to her life altering career?

Her ideas were often shocking and way ahead of her time.  What impressed you?

The plight of poor immigrants moved Perkins throughout her life.   What are some of the first evidences of this in the book and how do you feel that they compare with the problem of immigration today?

Had you ever heard of the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire before?   What did Perkins mean when she “recognized that tragedies could be turned into positive events?”  Does that statement resonate with one from Rahm Emanuel who said “ Never let a crises go to waste”

Perkins believed that it was important to her career and her goals to network with wealthy and important people and she made a great effort to do this.  What is your opinion? 

Perkins' "Notes on the Male Mind" (pg.45) may seem amusing to us; however, are any of them applicable?
______________________________
Discussion Leaders:   Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) and Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com)




------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hold for heading
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: EvelynMC on August 01, 2009, 02:01:29 PM
I am enjoying this biography.  It is a real page turner.

My family listened to the news and politics was discussed nightly at the dinner table.  My grandfather was a staunch Republican, my mother was a democrat and my father was a democrat with socialist leanings.  Very quiet dinners, always.  ;)  Roosevelt, the New Deal and the war were topics of conversation. Altho I was quite young, I remember these discussions well.

I recognized Frances Perkins name from reading biographies of Eleanor Roosevelt.  

The first eight chapters outlining her childhood and young adulthood were very interesting to me.  I had some idea of the plight of workers, but did not realize it was as bad as it was.

Having one's pay reduced by employer deductions for "use of tools" and being sent home after being injured on the job with no medical care and complete loss of income was abhorrent.  No wonder workers wished to organize against factory owners.  

The desciption of the Triangle Shirtwaist fire left me with a sick feeling.

On another note, I agree, Ella, that many successful women have had a father who has always encouraged them.

This is going to be a very good discussion. I'm glad I'm part of it.

Evelyn
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 01, 2009, 02:36:09 PM
I loved the discussion of her early years. The turn of the twentieth century is one of the most interesting (to me) periods in American history.

Everything was happening at once.

--The Western fronteir had closed, and America was trying to settle into being a country without the endless opportunities to the West.
--The Industrial Revolution was in full swing, people were moving from the farms to the cities, we were becoming for the first time an urban society.
--There was an incredible surge of immigration. My grandparents, and probably many of yours, came to the country at that time.
--And to top it all off, there was the Demographic Transition!

What's that? Every developing country goes through it. In a darming society, the birth rate is high, but unfortunately, the death rate is also high. My great-great-grandparents had ten children, but only two lived to adulthood.

With industrialization, conditions improve, so the death rate drops, but the birth rate doesn't. My grandparents, at the turn of the century, had ten children, and they all lived. My grandmother had to scramble to take care of them. She wasn't the only one. Between immigration and the natural increase, the US population doubled in ten years, almost all of it in the newly formed cities, which were literally bursting at the seams.

Later, the birth rate drops: my parents had two children (PatH and I). But that was later.

Meanwhile, the cities were teeming with just about every social problem you can imagine, as all these people, especially the immegrants, tried to find decent work, decent ousing, etc. Laborers were a dime a dozen, so employers had no incentive to pay or treat them well; there were no laws limiting what they could do (or when there were, they were ignored. Housing was so scarce, families doubled and tripled up. Prenatal and birthing care was beyond the reach of the poor.

Housing, family, and working conditions were at a level we can't even imagine today. And Perkins was in the middle of all of it! She was inspired by Jacob Riis, a photographer who documented the unspeakable housing conditions and managed to get some reforms. She went to Chicago and worked with Jane Addams, the woman who started the settlement House movement to educate immigrants.

And she actually saw the Triangle Shirtwaist fire: an event that was pivotal in the labor movement to improve working conditions. The workers had been LOCKED IN. So when the fire broke out, they couldn't get out, and they died.

Perkins wasn't the only one who was galvanized by this. It was so horrible, it got the attention of many who had ignopred or been ignorant of the working conditions of the day. But Perkins was amazing in how she was able and effective in carrying that attention through her life. What a woman!! I love her already.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 01, 2009, 05:39:04 PM
I won't be able to get the book from the library until Monday or Tuesday, so i got another written in 1976 by Bill Severn. I'll just comment on what you talk about here on the site.

Jane Addams is one my heroes. Do you all know that she is one of only 2 American women who have won the Nobel Peace Prize? The other was her partner in starting the Women's League for Peace and Freedom, Emily Green Balch. Even tho i was a history major in both undergraduate and graduate school, i learned that by accident by picking up a bio of Balch in the 70's. No women's history in my education. LOL i had to learn it on my own.

It is important that Perkins had an opportunity to work w/ JA. Severn says " It was from JA that she first learned the importance of bringing together people of differing views for discussion and conciliation, a lesson she was never to forget. Nearly 30 yrs after Hull House she  wrote'It was she who taught us to take all the elements of the community into conference for the solution of any human problem - the grasping landlord, the corner slaoonkeeper, the policeman on the beat, the president of the university, the head of the r.r., the labor leader - all cooperating thru that latent desire for association which is characteristic of the American genius.'" (do you agree w/ that last phrase?)

It seems as tho every generation has to relearn that principle. In the 80's and 90's some consultants made a lot of money "teaching" companies that principle - they called it "quality management." Now the next generation is seeing it put into play by the president. Too bad everyone doesn't learn our history and not have to keep repeating it!

I also think that so many people are anti-union these days because they don't know their history and how bad employers behaved in the past and how much more it has improved because of labor unions organizing employees.....................

We also take for granted that our food industry is looking out for us and we assume our food has been prepared in sanitary conditions. It certainly has improved since the beginning of the 20thc thanks in part to Perkins and TR..................jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: serenesheila on August 01, 2009, 06:46:33 PM
I have been obsessed with FDR, and Eleanor, since I was a teenager.  During the 1940s I was often at my grandmother's house, and we listened to the "Fireside Talks", together.  I felt as if we were somehow part of the Roosevelt family.  I have read many books about both FDR and ER.  Several talked about Frances Perkins.  I can remember being proud that a woman was a member of the cabinet.  But, I had no idea about her early life.

It seems to me that some people are just born with compassion and empathy.  I know that I was!  Jane Adams is one of my heroes.  One of my early memories is of my great grandmother sending money to help the poor and needy.  Today, I do the same.  I went to work for the County Welfare Department in 1967.  I worked in the Old Age Security program.  Making home visits.  In 1971, I was promoted to supervisor, of a unit of workers in the Aid To Dependent Children.  I also covered a caseload of Aid to the Disabiled.  So, I have worked with people from children, to retirees.  I loved my job!!!
So, I am really relating to the information about FP's work.

I really admire her spunk.  She grew up in a conservative home.  She was brave enough to strike out on her own, to a college of her choice.  She rebelled against her parents wishes.  Not many women were courageous enough to do that in the early 20th century.  I am looking forward to seeing what she does next.

I was looking forward to reading the rest of this week's chapters today.
But, one of my toilets backed uup during the night.  I also discovered a leak under the bathroom sink.  So, I spent my day with a plumber, rather than our biography/  Sigh




Sheila
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 01, 2009, 09:15:46 PM
Sheila:"I was looking forward to reading the rest of this week's chapters today.
But, one of my toilets backed uup" Sigh. From the heights to the depths. I admire your career: if there were only more like you.

To those interested in Jane Addams, I recommend her autobiography. A light and enjoyable read.

JACKIE: your point learning to bring everyone into consultation from Addams is an interesting one. I don't know if I agree with the "latent desire for association" as a characteristic of "American genius" or not (are we non-geniuses supposed to feel it too? If so, I guess that's what Seniorlearn is all about).

I had another thought: I believe the book said she was also influenced by Lincoln Steffens. He was a reformer who went from city to city, starting in New York, exposing the corruption of the big city machines that had developed in every city. After watching attempts (good and bad) to clean up the corruption (including Theodore Roosevelt's in New York), he came to an interesting conclusion.

Steffens said that the only people who could clean up the machines were members of the machine. When well-meaning outsiders were elected to do so, they were ineffective, because they didn't understand how the system worked, and couldn't unravel it. Only someone who had been part of the system knew it well enough to do anything about it.

Later, we see Perkins becoming friendly wwith everyone in Tamany Hall (the very corrupt and very powerful New York City machine) to the horror of all her reforming friends. I wonder if she had this in mind.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 01, 2009, 09:16:56 PM
I seem to be posting the world's longest posts!!! I'll try to keep it down.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 02, 2009, 10:31:12 AM
"She was 'sturdy, plain and dependable.' No doubt she was that to get as far as she did. But she sure had a lot of adventure along the way. Why, I wonder. did she turn her back on her comfortable middle-class upbringing to look for company among those in the upper class, and a personal satisfaction working among the poor and forgotten?”"- JONATHAN

Hello JONATHAN.  I could write a term paper, I believe, on that paragraph!  But I won’t.  How awful to be described in those descriptive terms; even if true.  What woman wants to be plain and sturdy.  Dependable, perhaps, still even that sounds stodgy!

In the course of FP’s college life she met women who had remarkable influences on her life.  We all meet such people in the course of our lives; not too many of us allow such influences to guide us on the path that FP chose.  Why?  Who knows?  A chance to get away from home?  (A prophet has no honor in his own country) 

A new life?  The big city?   And she chose  to go to New York City - a “den of iniquity”  her father called it.

But we need such people!  The organization she chose to work for became the UNITED WAY.

Thanks for your post, EVELYN.  I was interested in your statement that though you had a republican and democrats at the table you had quiet dinners!  My, My!  As I remember those conversations, those days were full of controversy; Roosevelt and his “wild” ideas were cussed and discussed throughout the land, much as Obama’s ideas are today.  More about all of this later.



Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 02, 2009, 10:50:13 AM
JOAN!  What a grand post, thank you!   Your history of the dawning of the Industrial Age was fun to read; I agree with you that it was, if not the most interesting, at least, the most fascinating periods of history.  I am reading a book titled FORDLANDIA by Greg Grandian which illuminates this period (and of course, Henry Ford) and the great ideas of the industrialists, fantastic people who with their millions could do so much, and did!   

The birth rate!  Another term paper?  Hahahaha   Indeed, yes!

Social problems?  The most prominent theme of our current book.  And it’s just great fun to be discussing it with all of you.

JEAN, you will love this book.  Thanks for your comments reminding us Jane Addams.  We’ll be waiting for your remarks about Frances Perkins.

SHEILA!  It’s just dreadful to have the plumbing problem!  Hope it gets fixed real soon.  I am very interested in this:

"I worked in the Old Age Security program. Making home visits. In 1971, I was promoted to supervisor, of a unit of workers in the Aid To Dependent Children. I also covered a caseload of Aid to the Disabiled. So, I have worked with people from children, to retirees."

Tell us what changes you saw in those programs during the years you worked.  And I want to hear more about the OLD AGE SECURITY PROGRAM.  I don’t know what it is or what it was!

I have my own story about what I used to hear about”old-age pensions.”  What did older folks do before Social Security?

I’ll be back later when I have recovered from all this typing, hahahaa!  But I love this discussion of a very worthwhile book and subject!

Thank you all so much!




Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 02, 2009, 11:06:46 AM
LET'S TALK ABOUT CHICAGO for a few minutes (Chapter 2)

Ever been there?  The city - "THAT NEVER SLEEPS."

Have you read THE DEVIL IN THE WHITE CITY?  We discussed it here: 

http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/DevilintheWhiteCity.html

A fascinating book and one that illuminates the glory and the horrors of the city in 1893, when the city celebrated the 1893 World's Columbian Exposition.

And 11 years later, FP moves there.  She took a job teaching there "sight unseen."

What does that tell you about this young lady?

And to make it even more unusual:

"Immediately upon arriving, she reinvented herself.  She changed her name, her faith, and her political persuasion. (pg.16)
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 02, 2009, 03:17:52 PM
The thing that fascinated me was this: She decides that politicians are most comfortable and responsive dealing with a woman if she reminds them of their mother. So she remakes herself to look as motherly as possible, even though she was a young woman, and unmarried.

How many young women would first, have had that insight, and second have acted on it. Working in the fifties as a woman in a predominantly men's field, I haven't forgotten how hard it was. Every time I met a new male collegue, I had to work hard to be taken seriously, not patronized or ignored (The problem had not comepletely dissappeared in the 90s, when I retired, even though there were many more women in the field).

How pragmatic Perkins was!! We don't know how many times in private, she screamed and kicked the wall. But in public, it was just "here is an obstacle: how do I get around it?" And it didn't undermine her confidence in herself at all: witness her demands of Roosevelt.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 02, 2009, 05:53:17 PM
Choosing a hat. The curious forms of female ambition. FP never got over her mother's advice to fit the hat to her facial features. That bloody 'simple three-cornered tricorn style' hat that her mother chose for her,

'...would come to symbolize the plain, sturdy, and dependable woman who became Frances Perkins.' p5

The image was not to her liking, of course, and there is an irony in her using it in her mothering of the men who got in her way. She did have some funny ideas about getting on in a man's world. Well, whatever it takes. Men soon came to appreciate her leadership and managerial abilities. She doesn't seem to have been held back by the men in her world. As for the mother/daughter relationship...well, after Holyoke, FP just didn't want to go home again. She seems to have been left struggling with a self-image not to her liking, but neither did that hold her back.

At Holyoke she caught the founder's motto:

'Go forward, attempt great things, accomplish great things.' p11

Circumstances determined that Frances Perkins turned into a social reformer. I believe in that respect she was a child of her times. Reform and progress were in the air, certainly in the atmosphere of the social circles in which she moved. And it provided ample scope for her ambitions. The world was her oyster. Especially Chicago for a starter.

'For a young woman seeking to launch a new life in the early 1900s, no place offered better possibilities than Chicago. Fast-growing and diverse...the world's fair in 1893...the home base of civic reformer Jane Addams's Hull House, Chicago also became the focal point for the nation's social activism and a new center for intellectual thought. It was only that Fannie who was drawn to social work and looking for adventure, left Worcester and moved there in 1904....Immediately upon arriving, she reinvented herself. She changed her name, her faith, and her political persuasion.' p17

Hmmmmm...it says nothing about buying a new hat. But that will come. Just look at the pictures in the book. All those hats. I like the coal miner's helmet. I think she was good-looking.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 02, 2009, 09:15:09 PM
Hats, hats! I remember in my youth "ladies" were supposed to always wear hats (and never split infinitives). If you saw a picture of a woman in public life, she always had a hat. It wasn't Perkins' fault.

Some women love hats: I always thought they were a pain in the neck-- especially the hatpins. At first, the hats always had net veils, and we saw the world through spotted net.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: kidsal on August 03, 2009, 08:06:46 AM
I always loved hats.  Had one with a veil and a feather.  My mother had a marvelous white hat -- like a skull cap made of white feathers and a white veil.  Remember in the 60's living in Los Angeles.  My roommates cousin came to visit from Washington, D.C.  When she got off the plane she was wearing a hat and white gloves.  California changed that!

Split infinitives -- afraid I still go back and correct my sentence if I split an infinitive.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Kirstin Downey on August 03, 2009, 09:01:59 AM
Hello, all! I'm delighted you have chosen to read my book on Frances Perkins. I am happy to answer your questions this month. I'm in the process of moving so there may be some gaps from time to time in my responses, but I am very interested in hearing what everyone has to say. I spent nine years researching and writing the book--truly it was a labor of love--and it is a thrill to move into the world of public discussion after so many years of private reflection on this fascinating woman and her life.

Kirstin Downey
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 03, 2009, 10:45:33 AM
As I said in my opening day post, “thank you Kirstin Downey for writing this book.” Reading it has led me to a completely different view of her role in the new deal.  Previously I had pictured her more isolated in her Labor Dept office routine of statistic publication and occasionally the arbitration of a major strike or  deportation hearing.  I had not realized how much the Roosevelt administration still relied on cabinet meetings to decide such a wide range of national policy issues.

I don’t think Cabinet meetings play anywhere near as important role in setting policy today.  Do they ever really meet except to have their group picture taken?  As you stressed throughout the book Roosevelt frequently accepted Frances Perkin’s ideas on issues unrelated to Labor to the great annoyance of other cabinet officers.  As this discussion progresses I think more should be said on the contrast between the makings of major policy decisions today with the Roosevelt Administration in the 1930’s.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 03, 2009, 11:21:12 AM
For more on Mount Holyoke Collage Click the following:

From Wikipedia Encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Holyoke_College

From the College Home Page:  http://www.mtholyoke.edu
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 03, 2009, 11:38:13 AM
Welcome, Kirsten Downey.
We are so glad to see you here and hope you will be able to answer our questions while moving.  Welcome welcome!
I have been reading the posts today as I was out of town at the beginning of this discussion.  I just wanted to comment to
Kidsal
And her post about her mother's hat.  "My mother had a marvelous white hat -- like a skull cap made of white feathers and a white veil. "
My  mother had a similar hat and I have a picture of her, during the '40's in a fancy CHICAGO hotel dining room with that hat perched on her head.  You brought many fond memories to me of our mothers' hats. 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 03, 2009, 12:53:13 PM
JOAN, did you remake yourself in any way when you entered the workforce and, particularly, in dealing with men?  And how did you manage to be taken seriously?

Yes, KD tells us that FP dressed motherly in the workplace.

Frances learned two lessons in working with men.  (pg.45)  Men would trust a woman with secrets and that it helped to dress in a somber way.  It's hard to imagine that young women today would consider such lessons other than to laugh; however, times have changed since FP was a young woman.  

Can we use the word “CONSERVATIVE?”  I think women in the workforce are conservative today also, do you?  Notice the appearance of women in the news.  I don't see much flamboyance!

Another lesson she learned about politics was to keep in the mainstream, correspond, work with the party and its leaders.  Aren't you impressed with her energy?

HI JONATHAN!  "I believe in that respect she was a child of her times. Reform and progress were in the air," Yes, I think so, too!  A new century.  Two world wars.  Henry Fords all over the place.  What an age!  

I would have liked to have been a “flapper.”  Cloche hats, short sequined dresses, the dancing, the Charleston.

No evidence that Frances was one; she bypassed that, didn’t she?  What fun did she have in life when she was young!  

I’ll scour these first few chapters to find out!

KIDSAL, good to hear from you!  I LOVE HATS, TOO.  I wish women would go back to wearing them, but afraid not.  I had three I saved forever hoping to wear them again.  Oh, yes, I did love wearing them.  A black hat with a wide brim with a black suit and heels and a frilly blouse!  Those were the days.

To split an infinitive sounds painful.  Mine will have to stay.

WELCOME KIRSTIN!

WHAT FUN TO HAVE OUR AUTHOR IN OUR MIDST!  IF ANY OF US HAVE QUESTIONS, PLEASE BOLD THEM SO KIRSTIN CAN SEE MORE CLEARLY!  THANKS MUCH.

I PERSONALLY WANT TO THANK YOU FOR WRITING SUCH A GOOD BOOK!  THE TEN YEARS YOU SPENT ON THE RESEARCH SHOW WONDERFUL PATIENCE AND ABILITY AND I  HOPE YOU GO ON TO WRITE MANY MORE!

I HOPE YOU DON’T MIND,  KIRSTIN,  IF WE DIGRESS NOW AND THEN FROM THE BOOK. THE ERA HAS MEMORIES FOR MANY OF US.

We will be getting more into the “meat” of FP in later chapters.  And as HAROLD has indicated we will be discussing contrasts between the “Roosevelt era” and our own.

HELLO ANN, good to have you here!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 03, 2009, 12:59:30 PM

FP had some powerful mentors!  Role models??????  (pg. 51)   

SAMUEL GOMPERS -  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Gompers

“His philosophy of labor unions centered on economic ends for workers, such as higher wages,shorter hours, and safe working conditions so that they could enjoy an "American" standard of living -- a decent home, decent food and clothing, and money enough to educate their children.[4] He thought economic organization was the most direct way to achieve these improvements, but he did encourage union members to participate in politics and to vote with their economic interests in mind.”
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 03, 2009, 04:49:40 PM
How delightful to have the author join us in this discussion. Kirstin, you've written a marvellous, fascinating life of Frances Perkins. It's very obvious that a terrific amount of work and thought went into it. I love the style. We were all envious of Pat when she posted several weeks ago on how much she had enjoyed seeing and hearing you at the Meet the Author night in D.C.

The opinions in these discussions can get very provocative. And so my first question to you is, can Joan be right in imagining FP screaming and kicking the wall, in private, in moments of great stress? I have a problem with that. But then I also had a problem when I read, in the Prologue, that, 'that night in bed (she) cried in deep, wailing sobs that frightened her teenage daughter.'

Was it so stressful to present her plans to the president-elect? Was it intimidation in the presence of greatness, or sheer fright on how her plans would mean a 'radical restructuring of American society?

And this 'mother' image that she practiced, and made a policy vis-a-vis her male colleagues. Wasn't it a true maternal instinct coming into play? She liked to think of all men as boys. She wished for boys when she was pregnant. But then, as you tell us, Alcott's LITTLE MEN was a great favorite of hers.

I just remembered. You quote FP later as saying that FDR had no plan of his own when he took office. I wonder if that was no meaningful plan, in FP's opinion.

But that comes later. In the early chapters this reader is kept busy speculating on the need for redefinitions of self, and 'erasing her tracks', after making another switch in political allegiance.

I don't really want any answers. I want to figure this out for myself. Thanks for the many fascinating details and clues.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 03, 2009, 07:39:16 PM
IMHO, the unions just took over for the Tamany Halls and other political groups who ran the cities and sometime the states.  What was the name of the group who ran Kansas City and helped Truman get a job and then to rise to the rank of president???
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 03, 2009, 11:33:51 PM
The Kansas City Demo political machine that was analogous to Tammany in New York was called the Pendergast Machine.  Click the following http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Pendergast for
Wikipedia information.  Harry Truman was associated with this group.  The article states that Pendergast picked Truman as a replacement candidate in 1934 when the Senate candidate died two weeks before the election.   During the  1948 Presidential election campaign the story circulated that Pendergast boasted he could get his office boy elected to the Senate, sending Harry Trueman to Washington.   
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 04, 2009, 12:19:02 AM
It seems women have always been figuring out how to deal w/ men on the job, how to best get them to pay attention to their ideas and listen to what they had to say and then to not have the men undercut their authority. I started working for Dept of Army at Ft Dix in 1982 and at that time the "studies" stated that men gave more authority to women who wore dresses because their mothers and their teachers had worn dresses, so the women Directors all wore dresses when we had mtgs w/ the powers that be. Maybe FP had a point about behaving motherly and wearing her hats. By the time i retired in 1996, the women directors were almost all wearing pantsuits - partially thanks to Hillary Clinton. Of course, their were many more women officers by that time who always wore pants, so the men were acclimatized to women in pants.

I just finished a bio of Condalezza Rice which talked a bit about her conflicts w/ Rumsfeld and Cheney and sometimes even Colin Powell. All of them were surprised at how strong she could be and how she sometimes undercut them - especially Powell who had been her mentor in G.H.W. Bush's admin. Rumsfeld and Cheney just tho't she was incompetent. Some of their thinking was probably accurate, on the other hand, how much were they supposing that she wasn't behaving as she "should" as a woman. I identified w/ her in some descriptions of meetings where she was the only  Black  and/or  the only woman at the mtg, as was true for FP. What a feeling of isolation. FP must have felt it especially strongly as she moved into many arenas as the first woman ever to be there, or to be speaking w/ authority.  ...................jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 04, 2009, 10:27:51 AM
I can't imagine Frances Perkins with a feeling of isolation in any situation. It seems more likely that she was soon the center of action in every group activity in which she found herself. As class president. As chairman of every committee, As chief commissioner of this and that. She was a natural selection as Secretary of Labor. Politics was a cakewalk for her. It seems she, more than anyone else had the president's ear. Perhaps not. There was Harry Hopkins. And Louis Howe. And Missy and Lucy. And of course Eleanor. The latter and her husband didn't share the same bed, but they often had their heads together. Isn't every life a mystery.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 04, 2009, 10:42:29 AM
I get the impression that FP got along with everyone, outside of her family. As often as not gender worked in her favor. As someone says of her, she was a smart woman.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 04, 2009, 10:49:29 AM
Two opinions here.  What do the rest of you think?  Would Frances Perkins feel isolated in a meeting where she was the only female? 

I'll weigh in.  She became a politician exactly when is anyone's guess.  And once she learned she never slowed down.

On pg. 36 Kirstin tells us: "Frances had imagined her life……….married, doing volunteer social work, living comfortably and well."  

The horrible Triangle Shirtwaist fire "galvanized the thirty-one year old social worker."

Were you as surprised as I was to turn a few pages and read that TEDDY ROOSEVELT, former president, had recommended her for a committee to investigate the fire and working conditions!  TEDDY!  A beloved president.

The young lady has gone far in her short life.  Isn't it interesting to read about these famous people we all have come in contact with at one time or another.  The list goes on and on.  I love reading about them from a different perspective.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 04, 2009, 10:54:52 AM
I have a question for Kirstin pertaining to research.  How do you, particularly over a 10-year stretch, manage to keep it all organized?  By year?  By periods of FP's life, e.g., early, middle, later?

I am so in awe of an author who can do what you have accomplished here!  All the sources you have investigated, it's positively incredible!

Of course, I have loads of other questions, but they will keep!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 04, 2009, 11:30:25 AM
Harold,
Thanks for the name of the Pendergast Gang, (which is what my grandparents called them).  I grew up hearing the name ringing in my ear everytime someone mentioned Kansas City or Harry Truman.

Ella,
I don't think that FP was ever humbled by a man while she was heading up a committee in the government.  She always knew her P's and Q's and knew how to use her information, in order to make sense of any important meetings.  She was so young when she was accomplishing this.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Kirstin Downey on August 04, 2009, 11:39:07 AM
Hi, Ella and others,

Yes, it was a huge job keeping track of all the pieces, and I now have boxes and boxes of research material. I started by reading dozens of books on the period. I photocopied the pages with material particularly relevant to Frances Perkins's life, and highlighted the passages. I kept them in manila folders. I also reviewed hundreds of archival collections all around the country. I had copies made if it seemed that the material would be useful. The biggest issue was keeping track of material within Frances Perkins's 5,000-page oral history. I made a complete copy, and read it three times and wrote notes on it all. I flagged things with post-its so I could find items more easily. Then I organized it all along the lines of the chapter outline I devised when I proposed the book to Random House in 2003. I originally thought the book would be 16 chapters, so much changed. I had to learn a lot of additional history, particularly about the Cold War, that I had never imagined I would need to know. The book grew to more than 30 chapters.
I kept track of all the footnotes by writing with embedded footnote software, which helped keep things organized, but then all that coding and information had to be stripped out because it didn't conform to Random House style....Now I need a whole separate room for all my Frances Perkins research.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 04, 2009, 11:49:24 AM
Oh, I can imagine, KIRSTIN!  No, I can't!  Are you renting space for it all?  Hahahaaa 

When you say you reviewed hundreds of collections all around the country, do you mean you physically went where they were contained?  As a newcomer to the book world, did you get your outline approved by Random House in short order? 

Who is going to be your next subject?  I think you ought to do Al Smith, what a character!  Or, are you already working on one?  Tell, tell!

Thanks so much for answering my question! 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 04, 2009, 12:10:00 PM
The shirtwaist fire.  The tragedy of it.  What was your reaction?

I felt outrage.  An insult to our country.  In a similar situation I felt President Kennedy’s assassination an insult to the country.  No sense to either!

I was recently outraged to the point where I almost shouted for the audience in a theater to react in some manner.  Throw stones at the screen.  Leave the theater.

THE STONING OF SAROYA - http://www.payvand.com/news/09/jun/1054.html

Can we do anything at all for these women?  The statement was made in the movie that according to their laws (Iran) women are guilty until proven innocent, men innocent until proven guilty.

Has anyone seen it?

What your thoughts about the Shirtwaist fire?  Could it have been prevented?

 





   





Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 04, 2009, 12:38:49 PM
Continuing the thread of mabel1015 in Message #103 regarding Women’s exercise of authority in responsible positions in business and government and more specifically Hillary’s preference for pants suits to the apparent complete exclusion of skirts.  Frances seems to have managed her position of authority very well.  She did not try to negate the fact that she was a woman, but so far as her job was concern the exercise of her authority seemed no different from what could be expected from a competent man in the position.   She made no apology; she just did her job.  In the wash room men made their jokes but that made no difference in the management of her office.

Regarding Hillary’s constant appearance in pants suits, I’m thinking that this was interpreted as an attempt to negate the fact that she was a woman making women in particular less enthusiastic about her candidacy.  Perhaps her sometimes appearance in a skirt would have made her initial huge lead more difficult to erase as happened in the spring off 2008.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JeanClark on August 04, 2009, 02:07:14 PM
My Name is Jean Clark a friend of Harold Arnold. I am an avid reader.  My favorates are mysteries and science fiction but I will read just about anything. Harold has helped me register here and this is my first post.  I will speed read the book and participate here.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 04, 2009, 02:42:27 PM
Welcome, Jean.  So glad you are going to join us for this super discussion.  Jump right in anytime!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 04, 2009, 03:53:17 PM
http://www.kirstindowney.com/readers_guide   This link is to Kirstin Downey Readers Guide on her web page.  It consists of some 15 key questions relative to major issues raised by the book.  These I think can be particularly valuable to each of us who as individual participate in this discussion.  I urge all of you to open this link, make a print copy and to use them ito formulate your discussion posts.  They will be a great tool in stimulating discussion by raising good questions and issues.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 04, 2009, 09:28:53 PM
Welcome, JeanClark, it's great to have you here.

If you are interested in mysteries and Sci-Fi, you'll be glad to know that we have specific discussions for each of those genres where we share comments on what we're reading and get good ideas of new titles we might like.

The Mstery discussion is here:

http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=33.0 (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=33.0)

and the Sci-fi/Fantasy discussion is here:

http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=31.0 (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=31.0)

When you use one of these links you'll get to a discussion title with page numbers, and you can go to the last number to come in on the last page of the discussion.  See you there.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 04, 2009, 09:56:51 PM
(http://www.local21.com/fire2.bmp)

THE FIRE, THE HORROR OF IT

As you can see, the ladders only go so far.

The Triangle Shirtwaist Fire of 1911 still remains one of the most vivid and horrid tragedies that changed American Labor Unions and labor laws. The fire had come only five years after Upton Sinclair published his book The Jungle, which detailed the plight of the workers at a meat packer's plant. But instead of reforming the working conditions most people wanted to reform the health and safety regulations on food. The tragic death of 146 girls, whose average age was 19, was needed before the politicians and the people saw for the need to regulate safety in the workplace.

Had you read about this fire before this discussion? 


Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 04, 2009, 09:58:13 PM
WELCOME JEAN!

You need only to read the first nine chapters of the Perkins book in order to catch up to our reading schedule and to comment.

We look forward to hearing from you.


Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 04, 2009, 10:21:33 PM
THE STORY - an audio

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=triangle+shirtwaist+fire&docid=1004289327138&mid=3D3C9F43E86CBC07AA793D3C9F43E86CBC07AA79&FORM=VIVR#
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 05, 2009, 09:49:12 AM
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/perkinsfran/perkinscvr.jpg)

The Woman Behind the New Deal:
     The Life of Frances Perkins,
          FDR'S Secretary of Labor and His Moral Conscience

               by Kirstin  Downey


Links:
Frances Perkins Center (http://francesperkinscenter.org/)
Frances Perkins, Dept. of Labor (http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/history/perkins.htm)
Jane Addams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Addams)
[Frances Perkins Speech (http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=250364&ac=PHnws)

Discussion
August   l -  8    
August  9 - 15  
August 16 - 22    
August 23 - 31

Schedule
Chapters 1-9
Chapters 10-18
Chapters 19-27
Chapters 28-38


FOR CONSIDERATION

Was FP successful in her appointment to the Industrial Commission and in her later promotion to active management ?

What are your remembrances of AL Smith and the causes of his 1928 election defeat?

What were the causes of his defeat by Herbert Hoover?

What was the reasons for the break between Al Smith and FDR during the four years preceding the 1932 election when FDR won the Presidency?

What were FP’s terms for  accepting the position of Secretary of Labor?

What did the President of the AF of L, William Green think about the President’s selection of FP for the Labor post?

What are your thoughts on the almost automatic Senate confirmation without hearings of all the President’s Cabinet nominations?

What was FP’s experience at the Inauguration and her arrival at the office for her first day on her job?
______________________________
Discussion Leaders:   Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) and Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com)




Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 05, 2009, 09:51:12 AM
Here's an example of the dreadful living conditions of workers Jacob Riis documented with his camera

Five Cents Lodging (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.lensculture.com/webloglc/images/riis4.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.lensculture.com/webloglc/mt_files/archives/2008/02/-jacob-riis-five-cents.html&h=404&w=500&sz=224&tbnid=bbc4_yCStKXAfM:&tbnh=105&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djacob%2Briis&hl=en&usg=__D9sb1iWV14OxRxw5BxgheYo5xGM=&ei=2Yl5SurWBcmwtgfioN2WCQ&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=4&ct=image)

Almost worse than the working conditions.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 05, 2009, 10:11:27 AM
We haven't completely escaped from things like the Triangle fire.  In 1991, a fire in a chicken processing plant in Hamlet, NC, killed 25 and injured 54.  The management had locked all the fire doors to keep the workers from stealing chickens or sneaking breaks, and many were trapped trying to break these doors open.  There were other safety violations, including non-working emergency phones, and the plant had not had a safety inspection for a long time.  Here's more than you want to know about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet_chicken_processing_plant_fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet_chicken_processing_plant_fire)
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 05, 2009, 11:42:02 AM
The five page Chapter 4, The Triangle Shirtwaist Fire, is one of the shortest chapters in the book, yet for the reader no other single chapter packs as much impact.  Understandably for the hundreds of New Yorkers including young Frances Perkins gathered in the street below watching the tragedy unfold , it must have been a gut wrenching,  life changing experience.  Frances’s work prior to the fire had been for the most part directed toward getting aid to the individual needy; it was a band aid approach to the multiple problems of the poor.    After the fire her strategy was more directed toward the underlying causes of the poor under-class.  

This new strategy involved finding powerful allies who might help the cause.  Frances turned to politicians.  She had been sympathetic to the progressive wing of the Republican Party led by Theodore Roosevelt, but In New York she turned first to the prominent Tammany Hall political group.   She also sought the friendship of prominent rich progressive individuals.  In New York Tammany was a natural ally since its whole purpose was to win elections for their candidates.  Since the poor far outnumbered the rich, it made sense for them to support the causes of the poor.  In any case by 1915 Frances had joined the Democratic Party, and  had become a political activist with enough backing to gain access to city and state political leaders.  She was primed for a career in politics but took some years off by reducing political activity to marry and have a daughter.
 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 05, 2009, 12:11:32 PM
That 1991 fire in the chicken processing plant sounds grim. What a tragedy. It seems that  not only has Frances Perkins been forgotten, all her crusading efforts to make  working environments safer were in vain.

It must have been appalling to witness the unfolding tragedy at the Triangle Shirtwaist factory in March, 1911. It galvanized FP into a purposeful career direction. By then she had been living in New York for two years and had achieved a great deal, although still uncertain about her future. She considered becoming an actress. Or a writer. On the other hand she 'found that her work among the poor gave her a certain social cachet.'

What a wonderful life she was having tea-partying with her crowd of influential friends, the Astors, Vanderbilts, Cuttings, and Livingstons. And being stimulated by her Greewich Village neighbors: 'the radicals and writers, lesbians and libertines, painters and partygoers, sensualists and suffragists, immigrants and ideologues.'

'In those days, nothing upset us. We didn't get upset about anybody's ideology...you didn't get upset because people had funny ideas. That was America.' p26

And she had a few herself. What with judging people by the auras she saw about their heads.

'One man she singled out as especially interesting was Robert Moses....' He was young and up-and-coming, and handsome. I wonder did she have a crush on him? Or with Jack Reed and his communist ideas. Or Joe Cohen, and his socialism, who was 'Jewish and radical?'

There was the occasion. at the Cooper Union, when she declared, 'Feminism means revolution, and I am a revolutionist. I believe in revolution as a principle. It does good to everybody.'
p28

And yet, after years of experience, she would look back and say, 'I'd much rather get a law than organize a union.' She had come a long way since the big fire, that embarkation point for her. What a many-sided portrait of FP we get in Chapter 3. Thanks Kirstin.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 05, 2009, 12:15:50 PM
Yes, Ella, i knew about the Triangle Fire. Most history textbooks now talk about it as an important motivation to the organization of women for labor unions and for changing laws in regard to facilities in NY and eventually the country.

With all due respect Harold, whom i'm assuming has never worn a dress,  :P, I think Hillary's wearing pants suits all the time has more to do w/ comfort than anything else.  Climbing in and out of cars, SUV's and going up and down airplane steps, sitting behind tables that have no barrier  to the audience - wearing pants just means one less thing to worry about when she's got much greater things to worry about. Especially after the big brouhaha that ignited after she "showed a little cleavage" - very LITTLE, but the media loves to make a story.

I wasn't diminishing FP's confidence and ability to do her job "as well as a man" when i used the word isolation. No matter how supremely confident you are in your decisions and ability to present ideas to the president - or whomever - not having someone who understands your situtation and the slights/jokes that i'm sure she got, is isolating. ................. There's a wonderful book titled "The Story of "O: Being an  X in and O Organization" which talks about the person who is not like the others in any organization. It doesn't matter if you are a women in a male org, or a man in a women's org, or a minority of any kind in a WASP org, certain things are going to work - or not work - in a different way for you than for the majority.......................I would imagine that would have been especially true for FP in the first half of the century when 99.99 % of all org's were WASP and male.............................. jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on August 05, 2009, 12:47:56 PM
I remember my grandmother telling me the story of the fire and more than the fire it was the women jumping to their deaths that she would tell not looking at us and shaking her head with the horror her mental picture brought to the telling -

Then she would further the image by saying the hair or clothes on some of the women jumping were on fire. She was not there and yet the news and pictures must have been rampant for her to react so in telling us the story -

Interesting to me is that in 1911 the Italia-Turk war was raging where planes were shooting people from the sky for the first time. Also, the diplomatic build up to WWI in Europe was rampant so that in just 3 years, WW I erupted, during which the loss of young men each day was as great as the Triangle Shirtwaist fire tragedy. Yet, years later, my grandmother and even my father, who would have been 11 at the time of the fire, were so moved telling us the story - I am thinking it was because the women were locked in and the choice of death, jumping is what made these deaths more searing.

I became curious as to when the first Sec. of Labor was part of the cabinet - here is a link about the position that was split from the Department of the Sec. of Commerce ---
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1239.html

This link has a portrait of each Secretary of Labor and it also includes our current Sec. of Labor, Hilda Solis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Secretary_of_Labor
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 05, 2009, 01:09:14 PM
Barbara, do you care to draw any conclusions from the fact that Perkins is the only one who is posed as if she might actually be working?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on August 05, 2009, 01:39:55 PM
Could be the artist - http://www.askart.com/askart/m/jean_mrs_john_c_johansen_maclane/jean_mrs_john_c_johansen_maclane.aspx

Interesting the only other woman artist was Judy Horowitz who did the portraits for Raymond Donovan and Ray Marshall

http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/history/sec-chrono.htm
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 05, 2009, 07:32:51 PM
PAT, that was an interesting clickable, particularly the phrase “a look of personal extinction.  I count six people in that small room sleeping; I know immigrants were forced to live this way.  Don’t you think immigrants (legal or illegal) live under better conditions today?  I don’t know!

And the chicken fire was awful!  My nephew has all of his working life been an industrial hygienist and one of the things he does is inspect conditions in factories, schools and all public places.  I wonder how this plant escaped inspection.  If the workers had called their state office and requested one an inspector would have been out.

That  was a great summary, HAROLD.  Thank you for that!  Of course, she joined the Democratic party; at the time it is where the power lay in New York State.   That was a touching story of her introduction to Tammany Hall (pg.38).

A history of Tammany:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammany_Hall

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


As you say, the Shirtwaist Fire - the tragedy that could be turned into a positive event - inspired FP.  She dove into power politics!  And she worked hard at it.

In KD’s notes on this chapter she recounts how FP had pictures and drawings made of conditions in factories to show members of the Factory Investigation Commission.

The following is a paragraph from Frances Perkins' book THE ROOSEVELT I KNEW:

"I was an investigator for a the Factory Investigation Commission and we used to make it our business to take Al Smith, the East Side boy who later became New York’s Governor…..to see the women, thousands of them, coming off the ten-hour night shift on the rope walks in Auburn.  We made sure that Robert Wagner (Senator) personally crawled through the tiny hole in the wall that gave egress to a steep iron ladder covered with ice and ending 12 feet from the ground, which was euphemistically labeled ‘Fire Escape’ in many factories.  We saw to it that the austere legislative members of the Commission got up at dawn and drove with us for an unannounced visit to a Cattaraugus County cannery and that they saw with their own eyes the little children, not adolescents, but 5, 6, and 7-year olds, snipping beans and shelling peas.  We made sure that they saw the machinery that would scalp a girl or cut off a man’s arm………"

Later, ella
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 05, 2009, 11:12:01 PM

Frances is being wooed.  He is rich, good looking, successful!  And he proposes.

RHAPSODY! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U40xBSz6Dc

(Isn't that lovely!)

But Frances  wrestles with the decision!

Didn't most of us?

"She was becoming famous in her own right."

Single woman are taken more seriously.  What would her husband expect.

It is "uncharted territory" as KD stated (pg.58) and further it was made more difficult because "the roles of men and women were in a particular state of flux at the time."

Well, aren’t they always?  Certainly in my lifetime!

Unlike most married couples, they downplayed their marriage? 

What a strange beginning, don’t you think?






Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 06, 2009, 02:16:37 PM
Divine...without mercy.

Isn't she a character. A dynamo. Teddy Roosevelt has no hesitation recommending FP as the executive director of the new Committee on Saftey following the Triangle fire. But then, 'she shared', we are told, 'the intense vitality that animated the Roosevelt family, the same intrinsic optimism, the same self-confidence bolstered by conviction.' p49

KD already has her pegged in the title to Chap 3:

'The Young Activist Hits New York.'

What really drives her? She'll work with the devil if it gets things done. She'll quote scripture if they're helpful. (There must be a reason for question 14 in the link Harold provided to KD's readers' guide: What role  did religion play in FP's life?)

Why does Frances feel a 'sweet vindication' soon after arriving in New York? It still rankles, it seems, that she was turned down ten years earlier in the NY office of the Charity Organization Society as too naive.

Nevertheless, now she turns again to the COS for help in a charity case: '...to help a family in distress. A teenage boy, the sole support of his mother and two younger sisters, had been arrested and faced a prison term.' p38 She's promised help, but after a lengthy investigation FP is told by a very uncharitable COS official that the woman has been found unworthy of help because one  of her children appeared to be illegitimate.

The next stop. The office of the neighborhood Tammany boss. 'By the next afternoon, the boy had been released from jail.' And Frances had found an ally in Tammany Hall.

After reading about all the good Tammany Hall was doing in the community, one has to think those guys were out to win the hearts and minds of the people.

And the guy heading up the Charity Organization Society? Edward T. Devine.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 06, 2009, 02:23:05 PM
Or was the COS  on the side of law and order?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: serenesheila on August 06, 2009, 04:43:09 PM
I just finished reading the chapters for this week.  I had no idea what FP's life was like prior to becoming FDR's Labor Secretary.  She certainly accumulated a lot of experience with government, and worker's riights issues.  I found it interesting that she decided to dress like a matronly woman, so that men would see her as like their mothers!

The Triangle Shirtwaste factory tragedy made quite an impression on me.  On 9/11 as I watched people jumping to their deaths, I thought about the TSF.  It was unnerving for me, to see people intentionally jump- to their death.

I am also impressed by her connection to Teddy Roosevelt.  It amazes me how many connections she formed with the rich and famous, and politically powerful.  Have any of you ever heard about any other females who had such a civilly active life?

How sad I found it that her husband developed what sounds as if it was bipolar disorder.  I admire her for her willingness to take care of him.  So far, at least, she has not abandoned him. 


Sheila
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 07, 2009, 09:28:53 AM
Women, minority women, are making inroads into American politics.  Now we have Sotomayor as a Justice of the Supreme Court and we have Hilda Solis as Secretary of Labor; formerly we had Condoleeza Rice as Secretary of State in GWBush's administration.

Thank you, JEAN, for your comments comparing Rice and FP.  I believe with you that both women had a tough time dealing with men who probably grumbled in private about taking orders from women.  Then, too, I think men, unintentionally perhaps talk in terms of sport - , a foul, fumble, forward pass, the neutral zone, etc. .  or golf or basketball when describing actions and women do not think in those terms.

Thank you, BARBARA, for the clickables to all the Secretaries and for your stories of your grandmother and the Shirtwaist Fire.  There were other tragedies during that period due to negligent and unfair labor policies but this one will go down in history, I think,  because it exemplifies the horror of such practices and made laws mandatory.

HI JONATHAN!  I loved the Divine story.  What did drive Frances Perkins?  That energy, that ambition?  Was it fear of failure?  She escaped from her parents' home to go to the big city and found success, but she still dreamed of marriage and a home it seems.  She had the dream.

SHEILA, thanks for your comments.  When do you think bipolar disorder was first called that?  When did this mental condition get diagnosed as such?  I remember all of a sudden everyone I knew was talking about it and had a brother or a family member with the problem.  My oldest sister was diagnosed with it some time in the 80's after having mental problems since menopause which was blamed for her problems for years.

I must run now to do some errands but will be back later and let's discuss FP and her married life, her husband with his bipolar.  How does one balance home, career, sickness of a loved one, a child, all the condiments of living.

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 07, 2009, 10:05:42 AM
Oh, before I run I wanted to THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR MAKING THIS SUCH A GREAT DISCUSSION, I'm enjoying it so very much and it is due to your comments.

KEEP THEM COMING!

And a question for KIRSTIN if she is around.  Which was more fun to do, or less tedious perhaps I should say, the research or the writing?  As a staff writer, an award winner at that,  for the Washington Post I would imagine the writing would be easier for you.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 07, 2009, 02:49:17 PM
Ella asks what drives Perkins?  She started out kind of hard-wired to be that way.  p 7--"Wending their way through the Perkins' family tree were strains of brilliance, traces of manic depression, and a propensity for acts of public altruism that cost the doers dearly...."  The family particularly admired these members.

Of course, that was only the beginning.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 07, 2009, 05:30:43 PM
And from the beginning to the guy she loved and a home.  It should have been perfect.

But at this point in their lives, both Paul and Frances might be thinking that their marriage was the biggest risk they have ever taken and a not too successful one at that.

Paul is drinking, lost his job, Frances is obsessed with the house, hiring and firing maids, bored.

Their daughter Susanna later stated:

"It was a battleground.  They were continually shouting at each other.  It wasn't a happy household." (pg.73)

What would Dr. Phil have to say about this marriage?  Is he still on TV?








Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 07, 2009, 05:39:40 PM
SHEILA:"Have any of you ever heard about any other females who had such a civilly active life?"

FP certainly has to be near the front. but there were other women socially active at that time. Jane Addams, we mentioned, and Lilian Helman was running settlement houses in NYC, Margeret Sanger and the birth control movement. The women behind the temperance movement.

They all saw the same problems, but tackled different aspects of them. FP seems to be the one who realized the many aspects, and saught political power to deal with them all.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 07, 2009, 05:59:55 PM
That about sums up this unusual marriage, Ella. What a disaster. But aside from all the mental illness, perhaps it was politics that drove them apart. Paul hitched his wagon to that oddball mayor's notions of reform, out to get the Tammany Hall guys, just the people Frances needed to get legislative action for her reforms. And, of course, there was Paul's extra-marital affair.

What an interesting family tree. Even Robert Lowell shows up, the poet who 'struggled with mental illness and had a fascination with insanity.' p72

Yes, Sheila, there is another woman very active politically. We meet her in the next chapters. Belle Moskowitz. A friend of Frances Perkins.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 07, 2009, 06:01:46 PM
I've just noticed your reply, Joan. Of course, there were many other women.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 07, 2009, 06:47:52 PM
And we can't forget Susan B. Anthony who was alive until 1906 and the many other suffragists, including my favorite, Alice Paul, who began to fight for women's rights in 1910 in the U.S. And Florence Kelly, who battled for better working conditions for women and children w/ studies and statistics to support her campaign. FP had a lot of role models at this time.

In the book i'm reading there are 2 great quotes:
"Every man and woman who works at a living wage, under safe conditions, for reasonable hours, or who is protected by unemployment insurance or social security, is her debtor," ....former sec of labor, Willard Wirtz, said of her. More modestly, when she herself once was asked to appraise her place in history, she said, "you might say that i happened to be a woman, born in my own time." ..............i don't know if your book has stated those, i wouldn't be surprised.

FP and FDR were both only children and in the study of children's place in the family, there is a theory that only children are often leaders, very self-confient and disciplined. On the other hand, Severn says, "Proverty was a subject seldom discussed in the P's household, where dinner talk was of 'literature, art, drama and even the greek classics.' "

Severn has a quote from her...."sometimes she joked about getting married 'to get it off my mind,' but she prized her independence and turned down sev'l proposals. Among the men who pursued her in his young yrs, before he became a famous novelist, was Sinclair Lewis, altho she felt it was more because he enjoyed the make-believe of imagining he was in love w/ her.
"Lewis was fun to be with, unusual, unpredictable, amusing and oddly appealing, and at times she felt an almost motherly sense of wanting to protect him from others, even tho she was only a few yrs older. He used to try out his ideas on her, bring her stories to read."

Another interesting quote from her time w/ the Consumer's League: " Her investigation of the small cellar bakeries, where most of the city's bread was then made, exposed unsanitary conditions such as cats falling into the dough, soot from city streets sifting down from sidewalk-level windows into pans of bread set out to cool, and men w/ filthy hands kneading dough on vermin-infested work counters. Many workers in the overheated cellar shops were sneezing, coughing, and suffering from ill health as they labored at the ovens." .............shades of The Jungle!!! ...........It's amazing that any of our parents survived - mine were probably fortunate to be living on a farm in Pennsylvania where they produced most of their own food.........................what an interesting life she had in NYC, meeting all those interesting people......... I want to be her!.......................jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 07, 2009, 09:08:18 PM
Jean, the book you're reading oversimplified.  Perkins did have a sister.  Frances' father, an intellectual, had married a woman notable mainly for her farming skills.  Eventually the couple had little in common, and the other daughter was not intellectual, so Frances' father gave her a lot of attention, including teaching her to read Greek when she was 8.  Both parents were proud of her intelligence, but conflicted about the fact that they were raising her in a way that wasn't expected for a woman.

I can't wait until you get the real book.  You'll love it!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 08, 2009, 12:54:34 AM
In our 9 Chapter first week assignment we have seen Frances Perkins through her child hood, through Mount Holyoke, and her emergence as a young social reform activist hitting Chicago and New York.  In the last 2 chapters of this week’s assignment we have followed her through her marriage and the birth of a daughter. 

Tomorrow we will begin a new week moving on to chapters 10 through 18.  Right away in Chapter 10 we see Frances begin a new phase of her career that now takes on a definite political dimension.  In 1918 Frances’s work helped a budding Democrat politician, Al Smith win the New York Governor race.  Frances was rewarded with appointment to the New York State Industrial  Commission, a job paying a salary of 8,000/ year.  Was France successful in this post and in her later promotion to active management of the Industrial Commissions functions?   What are your remembrances of AL Smith and the causes of his 1928 election defeat?  Click the following link for a Wikipedia Biographical sketch of Al Smith.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Smith 

Some of the discussion points that will come up this week will center on the career of a Al Smith that culminated in his winning the 1928 nomination for President.  What were the causes of his defeat by Herbert Hoover?   Then will come Franklin D. Roosevelt who won the New York Governor Race in 1928 as Smith went down to defeated in the National election.  What was the reasons for the break between Al  Smith and FDR during the four years preceding the 1932 election  when FDR won the Presidency?   This led to Frances’s being offered the Secretary of Labor Position., but what were Frances’s terms for her accepting the offer?   And what did the President of the AF of L, William Green think about the Presidents choosing Frances for the Labor post?   What are your thoughts on the almost automatic Senate confirmation without hearings of all the President’s Cabinet nominations?   What was France’s experience at the Inauguration and her arrival at the office for her first day on her job?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 08, 2009, 09:07:40 AM
Our author was interviewed yesterday on our Columbus NPR station and the interview was repeated in the evening. I was most impressed in the faithfulness and admiration the author brought to this book plus the bibliography that is printed at the end of our book.  She spoke of interviewing of the generation that remembers her.  Sounds like Studs Terkel's many interviews.  These people are leaving for the better place and their memories will go with them.

On to the new chapters today.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 08, 2009, 10:48:31 AM
JEAN, I loved your post!  And all those quotes from your book, what is its title?  

"It's amazing that any of our parents survived."  Indeed yes!  

And the quote about Sinclair Lewis - "He used to try out his ideas on her, bring her stories to read."

She would be a great person to talk to, she had a nimble mind, don't you all agree?  And hard working, dedicated, pursuing goals.  

Look what she did when her marriage was foundering.  She pioneered an organization to help poor women who were pregnant, at the request of a couple of doctors.  They must have recognized the unique qualities  of hard work and  organizational skills that Frances possessed, "soul-satisfying" work.  Her efforts became the Maternity Center Association, now Childbirth Connections.  See the clickable below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternity_Center_Association

Note the first paragraph!

Thanks, HAROLD!  We will put those questions in the heading tomorrow so that folks, including myself, can remember them and think about them while reading those chapters.

HELLO ANN!  I heard parts of Kirstin's interview yesterday on NPR/Columbus, but was out the door and off on appointments and errands, darn!  I remember Kirstin mentioning that FP had a wonderful sense of humor which helped immensely with dealing with politicians.

There is a picture of her whispering something in FDR's ear and he is plainly laughing out loud!  The two of them together must have been fun to behold!  We'll talk more of that next week.

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 08, 2009, 11:10:06 AM
Early on in her career, FP made a right turn.  She had already, through Hull House, met an incredible array of the famous or soon to be; Board Chairman of AT&T, the future prime minister of Canada, British statesman Ramsay MacDonald, Clarence Darrow, Frank Lloyd Wright.

In her new church, her new religion, she met others.  Socialities, heirs to family fortunes. 

She vacationed in Europe where she met more.  Was she a social climber or did she just see the value of friends in high places?  Or both?

And she met politicians and was particularly impressed with a  young assemblyman, Al Smith who:

"turned out to be a fine orator with a command of language, a pungent, racy talk in the language of the people, a gift for the figure of speech that would make people remember things and would also make them laugh at the same time.  He really was quite extraordinary and if you ever saw him perform on the floor, you'd never forget it." (pg.40)

A Bill Clinton?

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 08, 2009, 11:29:17 AM
Thank you for that summary Harold, it is really helpful to me to know what you all are reading about and where i need to go in the book i have.

Ella - the name of the book i'm reading is Frances Perkins: a Member of the Cabinet by Bill Severn.

Pat - thanks for the correction on her family. This is a small book, 243 pages, so  you are probably right about it being oversimplified. I'm very much enjoying reading all of your posts and additional links w/ information. That's part of the wonderfulness of sharing in a book discussion on SL...................jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 08, 2009, 02:38:50 PM
...."sometimes she joked about getting married 'to get it off my mind,'

Doesn't that  throw a curious little light  on her personal life? And the bitter irony. Could she ever get it off her mind after the quickie wedding in the church chantry?

After nine chapters, she has come such a long way? Achieved so much. Acquired so many friends and connections. Not to mention the political skills. Somewhere, it seems to me, I read that Harry Truman thought that was the one thing she lacked. Neither Al Smith nor FDR, seemed to have felt that way. Both found her very  useful in their political calculations. And she worked hard at her politics, not to mention the good use she made of her feminine wiles with both of them.

'They (the doctos) must have recognized the unique qualities  of hard work and  organizational skills that Frances possessed, "soul-satisfying" work.  Her efforts became the Maternity Center...' Ella.

Of course. The Maternity Center Association was such a great success. And at that period in her life, it must have preserved FP's sanity.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 08, 2009, 02:53:57 PM
Yes, she's come a long way and she has a long way to go, but what a start!


Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: serenesheila on August 08, 2009, 03:13:06 PM
Ella, I am not sure when the term bipolar began to be used.  I think I first began to hear it, about 20+ years ago.  Before that, wasn't it called Manic Depression?

Thanks for the additional women's names that were activists at the turn of the 20th century.  My granddaughter studied, and wrote a paper about Alice Paul.  I had not heard of her until Sarah told me about her.  I did know about Margaret Sanger, and her efforts to bring birth control to American women.

I am looking forward to the chapters this week.
Sheila
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 08, 2009, 03:14:00 PM
Yikes!  I thought we had another day and weren't going to move on until tomorrow.  I'll try to summarize what I had to say.

Perkins doesn't seem to have been cut out for marriage, at least in the frame of the conventions of the time.  She and Paul were very much in love, but she needed to be her own person and do her own thing, and felt stifled.  The letter she wrote him is revealing: "...something has happened to me in these years that I've become a different kind of person with a lesser degree of working efficiency and paler kind of spiritual efficiency.....I do mean that I can't play with you all the time and exclusively, that I can't have you in my house all the time on the terms of me belonging."  I wonder how she would do in today's climate of equality in marriage?

But just when things have gotten bad, she gets pregnant.  They are delighted, but then follows a long, horrible physical ordeal.  First she has a miscarriage.  She gets pregnant again, and develops toxemia.  This was life-threatening and terrifying, and they didn't really know how to treat it then.  She is hospitalized, a likely death sentence then, and has a Cesarean, another likely death sentence plus a long tiring convalescence, and the baby dies.  So it is after much physical strain, plus the grief of losing two babies, that they finally have a healthy child.

More in a bit.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: EvelynMC on August 08, 2009, 03:24:25 PM
I am reading along with you and appreciate all the links so many of you have provided.

This is a very interesting discussion.

Evelyn   
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 08, 2009, 04:30:33 PM
Quote
Ella, I am not sure when the term bipolar began to be used.  I think I first began to hear it, about 20+ years ago.  Before that, wasn't it called Manic Depression?

My daughter was diagnosed Bi Polar/Manic Depression about 10 yrs. ago and I have done extensive research on this mental illness.  Years before there was a medical name for this it was considered a nervous breakdown and they treated patients with drugs to sedate them just to keep them from harming themselves or others.  We have come a very long way with mental illnesses in knowing what they are and what the genetic makeup has to do with them.  Living with a loved one with Bi Polar/Manic Depression is indescribable.  As long as the right medication is prescribed and the person takes it faithfully it is a disease that can be managed.  If ever there was a person with the stamina to deal with a loved one with this mental disorder I sense Francis Perkins would be up to the task.  Yet, no matter how strong you are it is very taxing on you emotionally, physically and mentally.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 08, 2009, 07:17:08 PM
Hi, Bellamarie, I'm glad to see you're still with us.

Some things a person would rather not have had to become expert at, but you can set us straight if we say something stupid.  I'm guessing that the disintegration of Paul's ambitions as the mayor lost ground plus the emotional strain of three difficult pregnancies triggered a worsening in his condition, but that maybe he was always hard to live with.

Of course they knew almost nothing about how to treat bipolar disorder then; it's hard to imagine the horror of having to hire able-bodied men to restrain your husband when he got violent.  It's no wonder they ended up shouting at each other.

In spite of this, it was during this period that Perkins did her groundbreaking work establishing the Maternity Center Association, drastically reducing the maternal and neonatal death rate in New York City.  Strong is an understatement.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 08, 2009, 08:18:07 PM
I received this in an email and thought everyone here might want to read about this lady.  Here is another of our heroines and from our generation.

Marilyn Clement: June 30, 1935 to August 3, 2009
"...working for the common good is a wonderful way to live a wonderful way to spend a lifetime." - Marilyn Clement, June 7, 2003

Marilyn Clement, founder and National Coordinator of Healthcare-NOW!, passed away on Monday, August 3 surrounded by her children, Scott and Pam, her daughter-in-law Liz, and the caring thoughts of all of us who knew her, worked with her, and had come to love her.
Marilyn's life and work was dedicated to social justice. She worked tirelessly to build, speak, and spread the word about meaningful civil rights and healthcare reform. Her leadership, vision, and passion helped to strengthen the recognition of healthcare as a human right throughout the nation.
Marilyn led a rich, decades-long career in social justice activism, including civil rights, women's rights, human rights, and peace. She worked with and through a variety of organizations, including the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, the Center for Constitutional Rights, the United Methodist Church, and the Interreligious Foundation for Community Organization, among other organizations.
Marilyn served as the National Coordinator for Healthcare-NOW until her death. Doctors diagnosed her with multiple myeloma in June of 2008, and Marilyn had to step back from her leadership role at Healthcare-NOW to undergo extensive and painful treatments. A tribute to her organizing skills, a group of nine committed activists responded to her call, and stepped up to form a Steering Committee to assume leadership during her illness.
At the June 7, 2009 event at Judson Memorial Church, Marilyn's consistent optimism rang loud and clear as she remarked to the crowd, "We are on the verge of winning something that is so desperately needed for all of our people... Love to all of you. Keep up the fight... And we are going to win single-payer healthcare."
Healthcare-NOW! recognizes the great loss to everyone in the single-payer healthcare and human rights communities that Marilyn's passing represents. Our resolve to continue and strengthen the movement she started is stronger than ever. As we mourn her loss, we also celebrate the amazing gifts she has given to us all.
Marilyn is survived by her brother, Les Boydstun; her children Pam and Scott; her daughter-in-law Liz Arwine, widow of her deceased son Mark; and three grandchildren Kendall, Chelsea and Alex. Following Marilyns wishes, the family is planning a memorial service to be held at Judson Church on Washington Square later this fall. We will provide details when they are available.
The family suggests that those who wish to donate in Marilyn's memory should do so to the Center for Constitutional Rights or to Healthcare-NOW!
A more detailed statement on her life with comments from those who knew her can be found here.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 08, 2009, 09:54:12 PM
PatH 
Quote
I'm guessing that the disintegration of Paul's ambitions as the mayor lost ground plus the emotional strain of three difficult pregnancies triggered a worsening in his condition, but that maybe he was always hard to live with.


Yes, I think the tragic things happening in his life and the stress of his job could have caused his condition to worsen.  I learned a person is born with the gene of Bi Polar and it could remain dormant their entire lifetime.  Tragic things in a person's life can trigger the manifestation of the mental illness.  Violence can be one of the symptoms and can be managed through proper medication.  One of the most difficult things to deal with is the person takes the medication, starts to feel better and wants to discontinue the medication, which results in more episodes.  Keep in mind that many scholars, writers, musicians, artists,  and highly intelligent people were/are Bi Polar/Manic Depressants.  I was amazed to find an entire list of names from centuries ago to the present with this mental illness.

Francis seems to be a woman of great strength, passion, fortitude and knowledge.  She seems a woman not going to let anything or anyone stop her from her missions.  I have to admire her, especially when in her time a woman would rarely stand up and speak out to politicians or other high ranking individuals. 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 08, 2009, 10:18:26 PM
I have to admit I am sort of jumping into the discussion at this point only due to the fact I had a most welcome, unexpected visit from my daughter and her husband, who I have not seen for two years. They stayed with us for three glorious weeks.  We were on vacation just before they came, so as much as I wanted to participate, I found no time to spare.  I have read all your posts and hope to be more present in the coming weeks.   
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 09, 2009, 09:52:33 AM
BELLEMARIE, Welcome!

I'm so glad you can now join us.  Bipolar disorder is so difficult and I am so sorry about  your daughter.  My older sister had mental illness for years and it was only a few years before she died that the bipolar disorder was diagnosed.  Before it was depression and treatments were inadequate.  Her family resorted to shock treatments at times.

Thanks, Ann, for the information about another social activist and thank goodness, our society still has those who see the need and do for others.

AND THANKS TO ALL OF YOU FOR MAKING THIS DISCUSSION SUCH A SUCCESS,  SO DELIGHTFUL TO COME IN AND READ YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT THIS REMARKABLE WOMAN!

Kirstin had told me in an email that she would be in and out of our discussion, as she is a busy gal, jumping from this city to another to promote her book.  I think I will email her any questions we may have and report back here.

Yesterday, a panel of historians were on BookTV and were asked two questions:  (1) did you find any surprises in doing your research, and (2) do you find it dangerous to write of your biographical character in the sense that you may not have covered all the bases and may find something after the publication that may prove embarassing such as Ellis did in his biography of Thomas Jefferson.

We discussed his AMERICAN SPHINX here some years ago.  Most of the authors had stories to tell, none quite as bad as the above.

The risks of being a nonfiction author.

Frances Perkins was a risk taker don't you think?

I'm wondering why she didn't run for political office?  There were a few women in elective office during those years I believe.

Can you think of any?

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 09, 2009, 10:55:39 AM
No, I don't believe there were!!!  I've done a bit of searching on the Internet for women in political office - NOTHING!

http://www.enotes.com/feminism-literature/women-early-mid-20th-century-1900-1960

Madeline Albright is mentioned.  Remember her!  We discussed her book, I believe.  She was appointed Secretary of State, later Condoleeza Wright would take her place.

So Frances Perkins was a remarkable presence in Washington; although not elected to office, she was a force in politics and an early role model for those to come.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: marjifay on August 09, 2009, 04:42:04 PM
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/perkinsfran/perkinscvr.jpg)

The Woman Behind the New Deal:
     The Life of Frances Perkins,
          FDR'S Secretary of Labor and His Moral Conscience

               by Kirstin  Downey


Links:
Frances Perkins Center (http://francesperkinscenter.org/)
Frances Perkins, Dept. of Labor (http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/history/perkins.htm)
Jane Addams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Addams)
[Frances Perkins Speech (http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=250364&ac=PHnws)

Discussion
August   l -  8    
August  9 - 15  
August 16 - 22    
August 23 - 31

Schedule
Chapters 1-9
Chapters 10-18
Chapters 19-27
Chapters 28-38


FOR CONSIDERATION

Was FP successful in her appointment to the Industrial Commission and in her later promotion to active management ?

What are your remembrances of AL Smith and the causes of his 1928 election defeat?

What were the causes of his defeat by Herbert Hoover?

What was the reasons for the break between Al Smith and FDR during the four years preceding the 1932 election when FDR won the Presidency?

What were FP’s terms for  accepting the position of Secretary of Labor?

What particular skeletons did Frances find in the Labor Department’s closet when she took power?

What is your opinion of Frances’s administration of immigration that led to a congressional impeachment proceeding to remove her from office?

What was FDR’s reaction to the impeachment charge and how did Frances defend against the charges?

How did the Roosevelt Administration view the causes and the remedies of the great 1930’s depression?

What did the President of the AF of L, William Green think about the President’s selection of FP for the Labor post?

What are your thoughts on the almost automatic Senate confirmation without hearings of all the President’s Cabinet nominations?

What was FP’s experience at the Inauguration and her arrival at the office for her first day on her job?
______________________________
Discussion Leaders:   Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) and Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com)















Sorry, I haven't been able to read the book.  But I have a question:
How did the Roosevelts pronounce their name?  I heard part of a BookTV book review this morning by Peter Schiff, and he kept pronouncing FDR's name as though it were spelled Rusevelt (as in Rude).  It irritated me as I'd always heard it pronounced to rhyme with rose as if spelled Rosevelt.
Am I wrong?

Marj
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 09, 2009, 05:51:09 PM
My guess would be that both pronunciations are acceptable. It reminds me of the problem some people have with pronouncing tomato.

Mrs Perkins goes to Washington. A risk taker, was she? How about the tough choices? She was loyal to Al Smith, until FDR came along. When the two had a falling out, Perkins went with the winner. Now, if Smith had won in 1928, is there any doubt that Perkins would have gone to Washington with him? It's mind boggling to think what that might have done for the country. No New Deal? A different deal?

These next chapters really capture the excitement of party and personal politics.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: marjifay on August 09, 2009, 06:38:53 PM
I just wondered if anyone knew how the Roosevelts themselves pronounced their name.  Altho' other people may have done so, I doubt that the Roosevelts found either pronounciation acceptable, Jonathan.

Marj
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 09, 2009, 08:12:58 PM
I've had a busy, tiring day, but will return tomorrow!  Thanks for all your remarks.

I did want to post this from KIRSTIN DOWNEY:

"Hi Ella...I will respond in a day or two. The website was down when I tried to get in last night and I am very busy today. But I love your questions and you will hear from  me very shortly!
 
Best regards,  Kirstin

If any of you have a question for Kirstin, please post it in the discussion, bold it and she will be reply! 

Isn't it great to have the author responding?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 09, 2009, 10:56:17 PM
Mar j I’ve definitely heard the name Roosevelt pronounced both ways.  Jonathan is probably right in his thinking that both ways can be considered correct.  I wonder which way the family preferred.

Ella I will have additional focus question relative to chapters 10 through 18.  I will try to forward these to you tomorrow for inclusion in the heading.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 09, 2009, 11:02:09 PM
Regarding my previous knowledge of Al Smith, he was always a nebulous shadow of a figure.  I never really remember studying him in any detail in any of the American history courses I took in either high school or college.  Of course there was much mention of Al Smith’s Catholic religion as the cause of his 1928 defeat by Herbert Hoover during the 1960 election campaign.  As we read in our current book it would appear that the KKK and other groups used this religious issue in the campaign against Smith leading to his defeat.  In 1960 the KKK was still around, but I believe it was much more powerful in the 1920’s.  I understand it had even gained some strength outside the south.  It was still active in 1960 but it was not the force it was 32 years earlier, and this issue did not prevent Kennedy’s election.

Regarding The Smith-Roosevelt break, to me the causes seem vague and unimportant.  FDR was elected as N.Y. Governor  in 1928 replacing Smith who had vacated that office to run for President.  One of the apparent causes was FDR’ decision not to carry over the employment of several  N.Y. officials who had served during the Smith Administration.  FDR rejected both of these.  One was Belle Moskowitz who had been a top staff adviser (Chief of Staff) to Al Smith.  Eleanor who had been a close friend of Moskowitz advise FDR not to accept her.  FDR appears to have wanted Frances’s advice, but this time Frances seems to have backed away from any firm recommendation.  In any case FDR did not reappoint Moskowitz. 

Yet this doesn’t seem any real cause of the break between the two former friends.   Perhaps it was more the result of Smith’s apparent bitterness emerging after his 1928 defeat.  Though at the 1932 Democrat Convention both Smith and FDR entered the convention as possible candidates FDR emerged with the prize.  A later analogous example is one, Richard M. Nixon, who after his 1960 defeat by JFK first bitterly left politics telling the press “you won’t have old Dick Nixon to kick around anymore.  Yet he made a comeback after overcoming his initial bitterness and even after defeat in a race for Governor in California, he won the Republican nomination and the presidency in 1968.  But that’s another story.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 09, 2009, 11:50:38 PM
Whatever became of Belle Moskowitz, that friend of Frances Perkins and crony, it seems, of Al Smith. She seems to disappear after FDR takes over as governor, and seems to disappear from FP's life. Once good friends. A great deal about her in Chap10, and then nothing.

We learn in Chap10 that FP had introduced Moskowitz to Smith, after which M had soon become Governor Smith's key aide. 'Moskowitz was an organizational genius who brainstormed, wrote speeches, and coordinated matters big and small.' p76

I find it interesting to meet Moskowitz again in ths Perkins biography. I first met her in Robert Caro's biography of Robert Moses, THE POWER BROKER. Caro can't say enough about her, '...all but unknown to the public but an almost legendary figure among politicians, she would be possessed of more power and influence than any woman in the United States.'

She brought Moses to Albany in 1919 and taught him all he knew about government. Caro even hints at the possibility that Moskowitz may have helped Perkins to the Industrial Commission job in 1918. I'm struck by all the networking among women activists and reformers in the book we are reading. I looked for Moskowitz at the testimonial dinner to FP at the Commodore in the spring of 1933, with its 800 invited guests. But Belle M is not mentioned.

Her disappearance from the political scene must have been Eleanor R's doing. She strongly advised FDR not to keep Moskowitz around, lest she soon run his whole administration. But now I also see, on page 98, that Louis Howe, that most loyal mentor and assistant to FDR,  'also opposed  Moskowitz, seeing her as a rival.' 'Moskowitz despised Howe; Howe detested Moskowitz.' same page.

By then FP was at the center of all this, picking her way very carefully, no doubt, as Harold also suggests.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 10, 2009, 09:34:15 AM
Isn't this all interesting!  A bit of back-door gossiping -  who had the power, who got the job and why!  Politics, my friends, eh?

Well, perhaps some of this comes from FP's book, THE ROOSEVELT I KNOW; she devotes quite a few pages to the problems between these two men.  Al Smith had been an outstanding governor of New York, respected and admired.  Wise.  But when it came to voting for a Smith as president, a Catholic, they backed off.  

After days of regret and sadness, Smith felt it was his duty to help FDR become a good governor and he made recommendations, few of which FDR instigated, particularly the Moskowitz and Caro appointments.  

FP states:  "If Governor Al could only have realized that Roosevelt, because he had been a sick man, needed more than most men to demonstrate that he could and would do it alone, he would not have attempted to handle him by remote control."

So, from this, we can assume that due to FDR's decisions Moskowitz and Caro disappeared from the political scene.

That took courage, I think.  Wouldn't most people want experienced personnel around them to help them become acquainted with a new job?  At least, until they got their feet wet and then they could have fired them.  But FDR was going to make it alone or not!!!

------------------------------------------

But back to FP as a member of the Industrial Commission of New York, a highly-paid job, perhaps the top paid female in the United States,  (Chapter 10) which started FP off on a career to the top!

Al Smith!  Governor of NEw York.  He would make a good subject for a biography, don't you think?  There's not much about him on the Internet. And to reward FP for her help in his election campaign, she gets a job.

And  a boss, John Mitchel, a popular union leader.  I smiled when I read -

"To bolster her nerve, she bought a new dress." (pg.79)

Only women would understand that!

But wasn't FP brave to meet with the strikers in Rome, PA who met her car with rocks!  And she, with diplomatic efforts, managed to quell the strike and satisfy both employers and employees. (pgs. 82-83)

And hints of a romance between boss and FP!  Well, well!

And more political maneuvering when we read of the "mothball wife."  (87)  No doubt there is a lot of that going on all the time.





Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Kirstin Downey on August 10, 2009, 10:31:17 AM
Hi, friends and readers.....

The Harry Truman comment was interesting, and you'll see more on this soon...Yes, when he first became president he wrote in notes to himself, when he was deciding who to keep in the Cabinet and who to dismiss, that he thought Frances Perkins, while a "great lady," lacked political sense. He dropped her from the Cabinet..But wait a few more chapters, and you will see what he thought later, and what happened.

Someone asked if I preferred the writing or the research, and I would say I prefer the research, hands-down! The writing is hard work while the research is like fun detective sleuthing. And many of the archives are quite beautiful and peaceful, in lovely campus settings.

I became obsessive about the research because I have been terrified that I would miss something important. The big horror story to me was the excellent biography of Charles Lindbergh that failed to detect he had a secret German family. That fact sheds new light on everything he said and did in regard to Europe....My book has been out since March, and so far, so good.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 10, 2009, 11:20:47 AM
Additional Focus questions for discussion relative to Chapters 10 – 18.

Discuss Frances’s management of the Labor Department.  What particular skeletons did Frances find in the Labor Department’s closet when she took power?  What is your opinion of Frances’s administration of immigration that led to a congressional impeachment proceeding to remove her from office?  What was FDR’s reaction to the impeachment charge and how did Frances defend against the charges?

How did the Roosevelt Administration view the causes and the remedies of the great 1930’s depression?   Discuss specific Governmental remedies; short term relief of immediate symptoms (put people to work, CCC, Bank holiday etc), long term- correct underlying economic system defects.  What role did the Congress play? Legislation.  What was the role of the Supreme Court?

Discuss FDR’s governance style in particular what was the cabinet’s role in the executive decision making process?  What was the role of the Cabinet regularly meeting to advise the President on key issues?  Have recent Presidents changed this procedure?  Comment on Frances’s role in these meetings and what did other cabinet ministers think about Frances’s particular position with the President?

Discuss Frances’s social life in Washington during her 12 year term as Secretary of labor. Where, and with whom did she live?  Where were her husband and daughter?   How did her lifestyle differ from other male cabinet officials?

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 10, 2009, 11:30:10 AM
KIRSTIN!  

How delightful to read your post.  THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS!

And, as you prefer research, we all urge you to do more.  Another book must follow this one and, hopefully, it won't take 10 years!!!

You've done such an excellent job on the Perkins book and even though it may have been tough writing, it's a great book to read and discuss.  

JONATHAN, I noticed you mentioned the Caro book about Moses, that huge, heavy book.  I'm looking at ait now on my book shelves and I must confess I've never opened it.  

However, I looked in the Index and there are a number of references to FP, one of which is a story in which she attempted to stop him from building bath houses on Long Island because he was not using union labor.  Being on the "most intimate of personal terms" she called him up to tell him to stop saying - "naughty, naughty, you can't do that,......"   He just gave her the devil, so she said, and continued.  By the time all the elements of the law were invoked, the bath houses had been built.

It's an amusing story.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 10, 2009, 11:30:47 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belle_Moskowitz  this link is a Bio sketch of Belle Moskowitz.  One reason we did not hear more about her during the 1930's is that she died in Jan 2, 1933.

Regarding Robert Caro's biographies.  His mult-volume LBJ Biography the is also very detailed.  Our Ginny gave me this volume several years back after her visit to San Antonio when I took her and a friend on a tour of the Institute of Texan Cultures and The San Antonio Missions National Historical Park.  Thank you Ginny!  This book has been a valuable research tool in several of our subsequent nonfiction discussions.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on August 10, 2009, 01:30:40 PM
My book is here at last  and I will immerse myself in it directly.  My apologies for being late.
Traude
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 10, 2009, 10:45:43 PM
I would like to ask the author, Kirstin Downey, if she found Frances Perkins a very elusive subject. The question came to mind when I read this on page 104:

'Sometime during this period Frances made yet another adjustment to her public identity. She had already changed her name, her religion, and her appearance. Now she started presenting herself as a Boston Brahmin....'

Traude, you're coming into the discussion at a very opportune time. Can you tell us something about the characteristics of a Boston Brahmin?

Thanks, Harold, for the information about Belle Moskowitz. She could not have been at the testimonial dinner, since she had died a month or two earlier.

I would like to compliment Kirstin on her very entertaining and very informative book. What a remarkable woman she has found in Frances Perkins, this woman who, as she tells us, 'conducted her life behind a veil,' with very few personal tales. On the other hand, when it came to public affairs, or even the lives of others, FP seems to have been uninhibited in her curiosity and her volubility in searching out the secrets of human nature and society at large. And what a preoccupation with relationships.

What fine executive and administrative abilities Perkins had developed by the time she went for that all-important appointment with the president-elect on the prospect of heading up the Labor Department in the new cabinet. Her competence and savvy are so well illustrated in the pages that follow that succinct statement on page 120:

'Then she proceeded to lay out her dramatic plan of action.'

Ella, we're thrown a curve in the thickening plot. There are two John Mitchel(l)s in the book. His boss and her boss. The John Mitchel who fell out of the aeroplane, and the John Mitchell who came up out of the coal mines. Paul went to pieces over Mitchel's failure as a politician. Frances, I get the impression, set out immediately to get her Mitchell's job.

Does Frances Perkins remind anyone of Margaret Thatcher?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 11, 2009, 11:50:21 AM
We are missing a few!

Where are you, PAT, JOAN, JEAN, BELLEMARIE, EVELYN, SHEILA.  Who am I leaving out?

We would love to hear from all of you

WELCOME TRAUDE!

JONATHAN, I have copied your question and will wait until I get one or two more and then email them to Kirstin if she doesn't come in and answer it.  Will you bold it in red so, perhaps, she can see it if she is around??

Yes, Jonathan, two Mitchels here.  But John Mitchel, head of the Industrial Commission knew labor; had been a coal miner at the age of 13, president of the UMW (United MIne Workers)and he was very skeptical of her appointment to the Commission. She had to win him over and eventually did.  But he was ill much of the time and FP had to take over, running the commission smoothly, it seems.

The strike in Rome, NEw York is interesting in that the owners of a copper factory turned to immigrant labor who worked for lower pay, creating tensions between the locals who worked there for years. (pg.81)

Doesn't that resonate with some conditions today?  Immigrant workers?  Or does the factory today just move to another country to get cheaper labor?

I remember strikes!  And more strikes!  Do you?  The UAW (United Auto Workers), the miners who had to work under atrocious circumstances.

We still have unions don't we?

But I believe that Honda and Toyota do not employ union members, am I correct?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 11, 2009, 12:49:46 PM
Ella - i've been peeking in everyday, but since Weds, i've been spending most of everyday w/ my new-mother-DIL and my new grandson. It's their first child and her family is not here, so i've been their moral support and cheerleader.

You are right, Toyoto and Honda do not have unions, but having unions in our domesticate auto manufacturers keeps the Japanese companies honest, even if they don't pay quite as much as GM, etc. But the Japanese have also had a history of taking better care of their employees than companies in the U.S. have done only w/ pressure from the unions. ................jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 11, 2009, 03:04:39 PM
I am extremely confused.  I just realized that my book has ONLY nine chapters in it.  Can someone help me with how I am to know how far to read since I am not able to follow the break down of the assignments above?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 11, 2009, 03:17:01 PM
Ella Gibbons,
Quote
But back to FP as a member of the Industrial Commission of New York, a highly-paid job, perhaps the top paid female in the United States

Yes, indeed I was shocked to see that FP was considered a "top paid female", for this postion back in 1919 it was $8,000  a year (about $90,000 in 1998).  That is a hefty sum.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 11, 2009, 03:19:31 PM
Congratulations Mabel on your new grandson!  How wonderful of you to be there for your DIL.  Oh the rewards you reap to spend this precious time with them.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 11, 2009, 03:33:52 PM
Oh dear I do believe I may have ordered the wrong book.  My author is Naomi Pasachoff.  The title is "Frances Perkins  Champion of the New Deal"  Kristen I am so very sorry.  It appears my author has written almost exactly the same as your book, since I have been able to follow along and not missed anything as yet.  I will do my best to continue with the discussion if that is okay with everyone.  My, my how did I do this??
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 11, 2009, 04:09:36 PM
BELLAMARIE: on dear! But it's our gain, since you can compare the two books.

What a lot of detail we know about the conversation between FP and Roosevelt, when they talked about her nomination.

QUESTION FOR kIRSTEN: Did Perkins supply the details of her conversation with FDR in her book?

I had to laugh at her experiences during the inaugeration. One sentance, especially (p.132) "Washington traffic was the first of many indignities she would suffer from not knowing the rules in the nation's capital." Having lived most of my life in the nation's capital most of my life, I would love to know what rules would enable me to avoid Washington traffic!!!

But of course it wasn't funny to FP. All of these mixups and adventures must have really emphasized her feelings of being an outsider.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 11, 2009, 04:14:56 PM
Margart Thatcher- Frances Perkins Compared.

Does Frances Perkins remind anyone of Margaret Thatcher? Jonathon asks an interesting question.  I suppose there are some similarities but there are also big differences between Margaret Thatcher’s position in England as Chief of Government and Frances’s position in the U.S. as Secretary of Labor.  In England Margaret Thatcher wielded power directly with the very broad decision making powers of the Chief of Government; in the U.S. Frances’s direct power was limited to her labor Department.  To the extent that she exerted broader power in other areas it was though her advisory position in the Cabinet.  In this capacity our book has shown that Frances’s advise was often followed by FDR, but the ultimate decision was FDR’s, not Frances’s.  As President FDR exercised the power of Chief of Government that Margaret Thatcher exercised in England.  I suppose that I should also add the in the U.S FDR in adddition to being Chief of Government was also Chief of State. 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 11, 2009, 04:27:26 PM
I was really interested (and shocked) at what she found when she came to the Department of Labor. Imagine, having to talk down gangsters who were stealing files! She was lucky she wasn't hurt. It must have been scary, knowing she was taking on mobsters.

And think of running a racket out of a government agency to terrorize immigrants. I wonder if things like that go on now.

I used Bureau of Labor statistics in my dissertation, so followed her efforts to improve them both before and after her appointment. I guess she was a number hound, like me. Somewhere someone (I can't find the quote ) said almost exactly what I used to tell my students: not to forget that these statistics are not just numbers on a page, but people's lives. Those peoples stories are in there, and if you look, you can find them. Often, statistics are the only thing that give ordinary people a voice to be heard.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 11, 2009, 04:55:57 PM
I though the March 1933 inauguration as it pertained to Francis and her reception the next day at her Labor Dept office quit a comical routine.  Beginning with booking hotel reservations with Frances lucky to find a room in a second rate hotel, and continuing with trouble finding her way to the right Inaugural ball.  Then the next day when she appeared at her Labor Dept office she had trouble in claiming her office. 

She made one mistake that first day by keeping a powerful Senate Committee Chairman cooling his heels waiting to see her.  Later Frances had cause to regret this incident.  Our book explains that the Transfer of Power confusion resulted from the fact that the Democratic Party had not been involved in an Inauguration in the past 16 years.

In one area Francis enjoyed a benefit, denied new cabinets members taking power with the new administration in January 2009.  When Frances arrived in Washington for the inauguration, she had already been confirmed by the Senate, as had the entire slate nominated by FDR.  In those simpler years the Senate as a matter of courtesy to the new President automatically confirmed the Presidents nomination without any hearings.  How different it is today when at least two cabinet nominees were rejected and every one had to undergo detailed and expensive hearings.

Another interesting confirmation hearing occurred later in the administration when FDR appointed William O. Douglas to the Supreme Court.  When his nominate came before the Senate Committee he was advised to be present as they might  wanted his testimony.  The Senate Committee approved the nomination without a hearing and the confirmation was confirmed by the entire Senate with only 4 dissenting Republican votes.  Such a quick path to that court is not likely today
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on August 11, 2009, 07:07:59 PM
Thank you, Ella.
Since I'm joining late,  catching up with the book (which is wonderfully accessible) and the posts is a joy and a challenge.

Jonathan,  in your # 173 you posed a marvelous, relevant question  about the Boston Brahmins.
The term was coined in 1860 by Oliver Wendell Holmes; it referred to the old, upper crust New England families of Protestant, mostly English origin, whose leadership decisively influenced the development of the arts,  science,  academia, culture, science, trade, and politics.
 
The families were known for being fiscally conservative, socially liberal, well educated, and distinguished by their specific
Boston Brahmin accent, a special variant of the New England accent, which often is not understood by tourists.  (It has to do with the vowel 'a' and how "car" for example is pronounced in Boston.  But I won't elaborate on linguistics.  
Boston is still one of the most cultured cities in the country.

This doggerel conveys the meaning (though there other families besides those mentioned) :

"And this is good old Boston,
The home of the bean and the cod,
Where the Lowells talk only to Cabots,
And the Cabots talk only to God" .


The descendants never embraced this characterization and prefer to consider themselves just" plain Yankees". [/b]

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 11, 2009, 09:03:39 PM
Oh, I love that TRAUDE!

My sister lived for years in New England, Maine and MA, and her children say "cah" for car, and "pawk" for park, etc.  That's how it sounds to me; the Kennedys have the same dialect.  It seems they just delete the "r" sound.

All of you have FP in the Dept. of Labor already.  I'm behind!  I'm still with her in New York with FDR as governor and she is Industrial Commissioner.

Somewhere, HAROLD, one person stated that Roosevelt managed to get programs through Congress during the depression because most of them were freshmen and, no doubt, reluctant to deny a president anything.  Furthermore, they had no ties to lobbyists, etc.  

That could be a reason why his appointments were so readily confirmed, don't you think?

Good points, HAROLD, about comparing two female leaders; certainly Thatcher had the more responsible job, the top job, she was top gun!

JOANK:  I have copied your question and will send it to Kirstin along with Jonathan's.

I have the book that FP wrote about Roosevelt, it is very detailed as to her life in politics and the people she deals with; very interesting.  I know you would all be interested.  She talks of the appointment by FDR as no great surprise as the newspapers had been speculating for days and it was known that he wanted to select a woman for his cabinet.  

Her admiration for FDR knows no bounds.

BELLEMARIE!  I am so sorry you have the wrong book.  Can you get a copy from your library and follow along with us?  YOu might find the chapter on the inaugurataion of FDR and her appointment to the Dept. of Labor,\ in your book as that is what most of us are talking about (all except me and I am slow).

Only nine chapters about Perkins?  I was astounded today while on the treadmill and listening to an audio book by Jon Meacham titled AMERICAN GOSPEL (the history of religion in America) in which he quotes Frances Perkins speaking about FDR's faith and his church.  

She has a whole chapter on the subject - "FAITH OF HIS FATHERS."

Thank you, JEAN, for peeking in and your posts!  
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 11, 2009, 09:49:50 PM
Following Harold's questions here are two thoughts for your consideration and and an additional one.  Would you have the audacity to tell a President of the United States what the job should entail?

What were FP’s terms for  accepting the position of Secretary of Labor?

What particular skeletons did Frances find in the Labor Department’s closet when she took power?

A bit of history, maybe?  I don't think we have discussed Al Smith much and if it weren't for him and his mentoring FP, she would never have obtained the leadership in labor that she did.  He gave her independence in the job, backed her programs. trusted her with sensitive material.  In turn, she admired Smith, his willingness to fight for his beliefs, keeping his promises, his ability to listen, his frankness.

It was a great job and with wonderful pay as someone earlier said.  And the experience enabled her to go on to greater heights in the Labor Department.  It helped, too, that she became a Democrat at Smith's urging!!!!!

I'll quote two paragraphs from her book when she is speaking of New York's Industrial Commission:

"The legislature, over a period of 3-5 years, put into law the program of compulsory shorter work day and week for women, limitation of age of children at work, prohibition of night work for women, workmen's compensation for industrial accidents, measures to prevent industrial accidents, and elaborate requirements for the construction of factory and mercantile premises in the interests of the health and safety of the people who worked in them.

The etent to which this legislation in New York marked a change in American political attitudes and policies toward social reponsibility can scarcely be overrated.  It was, I am convinced, a turning point; it was not only successful in effecting practical remedies but, surprisingly, it proved to be successful also in vote-getting."

She adds:

"New York!  If it could be done there, it could be done anywhere!"

I wonder if New York instigated some form of compulsory health insurance for all, if that change of attitude could occur throughout the country?  

What do you think?

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 11, 2009, 10:08:12 PM
Ella, yes I am going to try to get my hands on the right book.  I did finish reading this book today and feel I am going to be able to follow along with the group because it has so much of the same details.  It does amaze me how when FDR became President he had the same problems to tackle then as Obama has today.  High unemployment, stock market unstable, an economic crisis, banks failing, and people not being able to pay their mortgages.  Unfortunately it took a war to turn things around for FDR.  I pray that will not be the case for Obama.

Do you feel we have a Francis Perkins in any form of a government position today?  Does anyone see any woman with the drive, passion and persistence for the better of the people, as Frances had?  I don't get the feeling Frances was a true one party person, more so I feel she was willing to work with anyone who was willing to promote and pass her ideas.  She truly put the American people first.  IMO
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 11, 2009, 10:12:53 PM
"New York!  If it could be done there, it could be done anywhere!"

I see New York as the state where everything is possible, and it is the state that would accept and implement more modern ways of life and government.  I see NY as the leader of the United States even more so than D.C.  NY is a state with such diversity that if it can be done there,  other states would be willing to do it too.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 12, 2009, 09:55:16 AM
I'm sorry I've gotten behind--I'm only 1/3 of the way into this week's section, but reading as fast as I can.
One objection to Frances' appointment to the Industrial Commission in New York was that such a highly paid post should not be given to a woman.  At $8000/year, it would make her the highest paid woman in government.

I used the Bureau of Labor Statistics (very appropriate) inflation calculator to learn that $8000 in 1919 would be worth $99,742 today.

That inflation calculator is quite useful.  Go to

http://www.bls.gov/ (http://www.bls.gov/)

At the bottom of the first page is a list of "quick links".  Under "calculators" pick "inflation".  You can find what a sum in any year from 1913 to now would be worth in any other year.  Lots of fun.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 12, 2009, 11:06:44 AM
Regarding FDR’s apparent ability to get his legislative program through Congress.  True there were many freshmen congressmen that year, but I think that FDR’s legislative program sailed through Congress more because of the urgency of the situation.  Something had to be done and Congressmen freshmen, veterans and otherwise were ready to try anything that seemed likely to put people to work.

Much of the program involved putting people to work.  One such program was in Frances’s bailiwick, the CCC (Civilian Conservation Corp).  As I understand it,  this program recruited young men (there was a separate young women's program too) to do a wide variety of public works jobs.  The pay was $21.00/ month, the same as an army private.  They were particularly well known in the west working on National Park projects.  They lived in army like camps in barracks with their meals furnished.  I remember in 1939 when I was 13 on a family Ozark auto trip when on a late Sunday afternoon we found ourselves sort of lost in the very rural Arkansas Devils Den State Park.   Our gasoline gage was on low when we began to see people walking along the road many carrying bibles as if on their way to church.  My father stopped the car to ask two young men how to get out of the park.  They were CCC boys working on a park project.  They said they didn’t have anything to do so they were going to the evening service at a country church.  They also gave directions that got us out of the park

Today both the legislative and executive situation in Washington has much in common with the 1933 situation.  There is a new President and a new Congress as well as a new economic crisis.  Again as in the 1930’s this president too seems to have easily got his programs through congress.  Also because of the social programs of Frances, the new deal and subsequent 20th century administrations  (particularly unemployment compensation) has at least to some extent alleviated the extreme suffering of the 1930’s.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 12, 2009, 03:14:26 PM
I remember my mother, a died-in-the-wool republican, telling me that the CCC was a big waste of money. But we are still enjoying some of its fruits.

One project that I thought was supported by these programs (although I have been unable to confirm it) is Allen Lomax's collection of folk music during the 1930's. We still enjoy many songs that might have been lost but for that.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 12, 2009, 06:48:24 PM
Joan, I couldn't confirm it either, but I know that a lot of artistic projects were funded that we now feel were worth while.

The CCC also built a number of federal parks, including the nearby Skyline Drive (Shenandoah National Park) which had been previously planned, but didn't get very far before the CCC.

From the sublime to the ridiculous: I can't go to the john in a federal park without thinking of the CCC.  I don't know if I'm right about the origin, but they all have the identical government issue characteristics--neatly painted cinder block, easy to keep clean, identical fixtures, same layout, spare and spartan, but totally adequate, all alike from coast to coast.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 12, 2009, 07:04:36 PM
Frances, living now in New York, in a beautiful apartment close to Central Park, with a maid,  making good money was enjoying life along with the rest of country.  "Everybody was enjoying himself....thinking he was richer and richer.....spending money...importing plays from Europe....... dealing on the stock market." (pg.107)

And then the free fall began, The "Great Gatsby era disintegrated in to the misery of the Grapes of Wrath." (pg.107)

Some of it sounds familiar, as Harold has stated. 

One reason for job unemployment was downsizing by companies for various reasons leaving a pool of workers marooned; homes prices that had been elevated were losing value, foreclosures on homes occurred with rapidity,

This was rather astonishing:  "Jobs for able-bodied men were so scarce that a backlash developed against working women.  Early in the Depression, Frances, whose income supported her family, openly criticized married women who were working for income she called 'pin money.'" (pg.109)

Only one person in a family could hold a job?????

I remember teachers being fired or asked to resign if they got married, do you?

Another memory this book revived:  "paying fees to employment agencies." (pg.109)   Do such agencies still exist?  I'm so out of touch with working people anymore I don't know what goes on the real world.

And what ever happened to IBM?  I must quote this:  "Frances went to England to study the country's unemployment compensation program and came back with a strong vision for how a system should be constructed.  ........  She suggested referring the project to an up-and-coming New York firm called International Business Machines....to see if it could develop a paperless system for tracking workers' claims."

Oh, the beginning.......................

YES, WE NEED A STRONG VISION FOR HEALTH CARE REFORM and perhaps, we could send someone like a Frances Perkins to England to study their system. 

JONATHAN, would you care to tell us about it?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on August 12, 2009, 07:20:55 PM
Comparing FP and Margaret Thatcher.
Both were influential women in their time.  Obviously, Margaret  Thatcher, elevated to the peerage in 1992,  had a wider "domain"  as Prime Minister than FP in her position.  FP died  in 1965 at 85. Thatcher is 84 and not in good health.

Thanks to modern technology we saw (spectacular hats!) and heard a great deal of Lady Thatcher. If we had had the same opportunities to listen to FP,  I for one would have liked FP better.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 12, 2009, 07:39:39 PM
Ella, 
Quote
Another memory this book revived:  "paying fees to employment agencies." (pg.109)   Do such agencies still exist?  I'm so out of touch with working people anymore I don't know what goes on the real world.

Yes, there are still agencies that help you find job positions.  I have a friend who works for our city in Human Resources and her job is to find people jobs.  My day care Mom, actually got placed in her new job paying much less, after being out of work for a year, through a placement agency.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 12, 2009, 08:38:33 PM
Thanks, BELLEMARIE, for answering!  I know there are jobs posted on the Internet in different fields but I don't think there is a fee involved.

Joan and Pat, you both seem to remember the CCC.  How can tell what that program did as different than the WPA or other "works projects?"
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 12, 2009, 09:27:21 PM
Joan and Pat, you both seem to remember the CCC.  How can tell what that program did as different than the WPA or other "works projects?"
I can't without looking it up, though I think CCC was more construction type stuff.

I know about "only one person in a family could hold a job", though, because in the 1930s my father worked in the Patent Office and my mother was a librarian in the State Department.  When the ruling came down that only one family member could work for the government, my mother had to quit. She was pretty bitter about it.  Even when I went to work for the government in 1954, I had to answer questions designed to find out how many family members worked for the government, but by then the rules were looser, and my father's employment didn't disqualify me.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 12, 2009, 11:23:06 PM
Of two books on the same subject and other things being equal, I would choose the one with 38 chapters, over the one with only nine. It was that way when I was young and hoping for a fresh adventure with every chapter, and now, much older, I am convinced the author with many chapters has a better grasp of her subject and a surer system of dealing with mountains of research matter, especially in the case of a complex character, such as Frances Perkins, playing her part on an immense, historical stage. Acts and scenes galore. Many exits and entrances. Every chapter a theme or an episode.

Tying it all together in our book is a curious thread that runs through all the chapters. Ella, on her treadmill is listening to Jon Meacham's AMERICAN GOSPEL, when she is surprised to hear Frances Perkins quoted on FDR's faith and his church. The author of our book did alert us early on to FP's religious inclination. The author must attach considerable importance to it in the life of her subject. The book, after all, begins, on the dedicatory page, with a favorite Perkins'  scriptural admonition:

'...be ye steadfast...I Corinthians 15:58'

and ends, 400 pages later, with a most surprising report of spiritual fellowship with the president:

"I came to work for God, FDR, and the millions of forgotten, plain, common working men. The last conversation...I had with FDR was of such a nature  that I could say with the Psalmist, 'My cup runneth over and surely goodness and mercy shall follow me.' "

There we have it. The New Deal was a mission. And FP sensed it while listening to FDR's inaugural address.

'Frances listened entranced....She sensed that Roosevelt must have had a religious revelation, that he was exerting a spiritual leadership that seemed divinely inspired. "It was a revival of faith," she said. "He said, 'Come on now, do you believe?' They said, 'Yes, we do.' " p131

The next day it must have been sheer trauma for FP moving into her  secretarial office at the Labor Department, which she found infested with gangsters, mobsters, various officials on the take, and cockroaches! Surely she's laying it on. Perhaps not. I remember once reading a biography of her colleague Harold Ickes. He found an even worse mess at Interior.

That reminds me. Just the other day I saw this book about Ickes, a political  biography, wrongly shelved at the bookstore, as they sometimes are by an unknowing clerk. There it was on the RELIGION shelf with assorted popes and preachers and other saints. All because of the title I presume: RIGHTEOUS PILGRIM.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 12, 2009, 11:43:18 PM
Canada's universal health care. It's wonderful. We've had it for a generation and I could cite a dozen cases in which family and friends got the benefit of medical attentions, serious and light, paid for out of public funds. Sure we've had problems ironing out the kinks and dealing with forged health identity cards which were available, I know, outside Canada, for $5000. Well worth it of course if it's going to get you a medical procedure costing ten times that.And that's why New York couldn't go it alone. Don't believe all the negative information you're getting about the 'horrors' of Canadian health care. We have many happy campers here with their broken bones mended and their wheezing chests cleared up. lachaim
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 13, 2009, 07:50:03 AM
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/perkinsfran/perkinscvr.jpg)

The Woman Behind the New Deal:
     The Life of Frances Perkins,
          FDR'S Secretary of Labor and His Moral Conscience

               by Kirstin  Downey


Links:
Frances Perkins Center (http://francesperkinscenter.org/)
Frances Perkins, Dept. of Labor (http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/history/perkins.htm)
Jane Addams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Addams)
[Frances Perkins Speech (http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=250364&ac=PHnws)

Discussion
August   l -  8    
August  9 - 15  
August 16 - 22    
August 23 - 31

Schedule
Chapters 1-9
Chapters 10-18
Chapters 19-27
Chapters 28-38


FOR CONSIDERATION
]


“CIVILIZING CAPITALISM” - what did you understand this to mean?  

What was the purpose of the NRA and was it successful?  

Were you surprised when you read that “two groups of Washington insiders were developing “competing proposals …..that reflected growing worldwide experiments in fascism, a political ideology that specifically tied together government and business interests.” (pg.172)

What is fascism?  How was it perceived in America?

Should FDR have known about the situation in Germany in 1933 when he gave instructions to the American Ambassador to Germany?

What are the reason why the USA did not do more to help the Jewish situation in Germany?

Was FP effective with labor leaders?  How was she perceived by business interests?

Was the fact that unions did not admit women a factor in FP’s administration?

Roosevelt attempted to remain aloof during labor strikes and let FP handle disturbances.   Did it make FP’s more difficult or easier?

Discussion Leaders:   Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) and Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com)



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Jonathon,
Quote
Of two books on the same subject and other things being equal, I would choose the one with 38 chapters, over the one with only nine. It was that way when I was young and hoping for a fresh adventure with every chapter, and now, much older, I am convinced the author with many chapters has a better grasp of her subject and a surer system of dealing with mountains of research matter, especially in the case of a complex character, such as Frances Perkins, playing her part on an immense, historical stage. Acts and scenes galore. Many exits and entrances. Every chapter a theme or an episode.

While I tend to agree with you that a longer book would include more, I am simply amazed at how my book has the exact quotes, and characteristics I am reading in these posts.  I am getting the same impressions and ideas of Frances Perkins the woman, politician, Christian, advocate for social justice, and her personal relationship with FDR.  So far I haven't heard anything much different between the two books.  Like I said, if I hadn't noticed the assigned chapters, I would not have realized we had different books.  It is very possible both authors drew from the same research archives.  I have read many books on different famous people such as Princess Di and JFK, etc., and all the authors seem to have alot of the same factual material, one may just have used a different source such as a personal friend or coworker who may have been able to share something another person would not have known.  I intend no disrespect to Kirsten Downey, I am certain her style of writing is much different.  I only meant to point out I am able to follow along and share the same ideas and impressions about FP as the rest of the group.  I'm just excited I am able to continue with the discussion.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 13, 2009, 08:44:16 AM
I hear Americans go to Canada for prescription drugs because they cost less, yet I hear Canadians go to the U.S. for medical procedures because they are not available to them in Canada.

I think it is each person's individual choice as far as health care, and I certainly don't want our government running one more thing in my life, especially when it would mean my tax dollars would support programs I strongly disagree with.  But then we may be getting off the topic here and be wandering into personal politics which could take us in areas of discourse.  lololol

Getting back to FP, I had to crack up when I read she saw roaches as big as mice.  lolol  Imagine cockroaches and crooks.  What a combination to deal with in a new position.  If anyone was up to the challenge it was FP.

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 13, 2009, 10:57:18 AM
I AM INTRIGUED!

Obviously, the decade of the 30's had a more religious flavor than the present one.  Here is HAROLD stating that:

"Our gasoline gage was on low when we began to see people walking along the road many carrying bibles as if on their way to church.  My father stopped the car to ask two young men how to get out of the park.  They were CCC boys working on a park project.  They said they didn’t have anything to do so they were going to the evening service at a country church."

Young men carrying bibles and going to church! They weren't sitting around playing poker or drinking beer (or was beer allowed on Sundays, then?)

And then JONATHAN says this:

"She (FP) sensed that Roosevelt must have had a religious revelation, that he was exerting a spiritual leadership that seemed divinely inspired."

Presidents that I have read about were not so inspired.  Not in Meacham's book anyway and he does talk of presidents and their religious ideas.

Thanks, s for that report on Canada's health care program.  Now how to get that word out to our countrymen, so they will stop this nonsense of yelling at town meetings!

I must quote this; Obama was faced with the same dilemma, if not the same projects, as FDR:

"Nobody knew, least of all the President-elect, whether the most important thing was to balance the budget, to conserve the trees out in the wilderness, or to feed the unemployed in the Bowery mission.  That's literally true.  There was no conviction about which things came first and which things second." pg.119

Who would the job and why?


Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 13, 2009, 11:06:16 AM
You may want to put this on your calendar:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/schedule.html

A PBS program exploring the culture of the 1930's in America.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 13, 2009, 11:24:39 AM
A few facts about the depression era:


"By the 1930s money was scarce because of the depression, so people did what they could to make their lives happy.  Movies were hot, parlor games and board games were popular.  People gathered around radios to listen to the Yankees.  Young people danced to the big bands.  Franklin Roosevelt influenced Americans with his Fireside Chats.  The golden age of the mystery novel continued as people escaped into books, reading writers like Agatha Christie, Dashielle Hammett, and Raymond Chandler"

FACTS about this decade.

Population: 123,188,000 in 48 states
Life Expectancy: Male, 58.1; Female, 61.6
Average salary: $1,368
Unemployment rises to 25%
Huey Long propses a guaranteed annual income of $2,500
Car Sales: 2,787,400
Food Prices: Milk, 14 cents a qt.; Bread, 9 cents a loaf; Round Steak, 42 cents a pound
Lynchings: 21

http://kclibrary.lonestar.edu/decade30.html



 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 13, 2009, 11:44:25 AM
BELLEMARIE, I did want to say that we are happy your book parallels this discussion and you are probably right that authors use the same resources in writing nonfiction; there is just so much out there.

What do you think about those prices for food?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 13, 2009, 12:00:17 PM
Well, if I only made $1,368 a year, I would hope that milk would be 14 cents a quart.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 13, 2009, 12:13:09 PM
Indeed, yes, Pat.  What did you think of HUEY LONG (my, my,) attempting to guarantee every man an income?

Listen to the vibrant voice of FDR in 1933 take the oath of office of the President of the United States:

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=franklin+delano+roosevelt&docid=1068754600072&mid=3A098F4BD3C2BEF8FC4A3A098F4BD3C2BEF8FC4A&FORM=VIVR22#
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 13, 2009, 12:33:57 PM
Jonathan, thank you for your comment on the Canadian single payer health care System.  But how is it for Seniors in their 80's whose survival depends on expensive state of the art medical procedures and exotic drugs to sustain life.  The word down here that while these are available to younger people in their turn, they are denied people in their 80's.  This is a major issue with U.S. seniors.  They like their current Medicare system, and the present Congress seems inclined to dilute the benefits allowed under the present system.

Also through the year and particularly during the winter months I still meet quite a few Canadians at my volunteer work at the National Historical Park and the Institute of Texan Cultures who are in San Antonio for medical reasons  
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 13, 2009, 12:48:40 PM
Ella
Quote
Thanks, s for that report on Canada's health care program.  Now how to get that word out to our countrymen, so they will stop this nonsense of yelling at town meetings!

I think that "yelling" is called The First Amendment, something FP and FDR would have supported, shouts and all.  Americans are frustrated today just as much as they were back in FDR's times.  I have a feeling if there was mass media coverage back then, you would have seen even more uprising.  Francis incurs a bit of shouting later when impeachment is an issue for her.  Fear for FP's life at town meetings is far more to deal with, than seniors yellling at their senators that they are elected to work for them, NOT for their own self interests.

Times have really not changed when it comes to politics.  It would be difficult to find a person like Francis Perkins today, who's heart was truly for the average person.  Even when she had a pretty good life herself, to carry quarters with her on her way to work and pass them out to the poor people at the red lights and stop signs is something you wouldn't find today.  Imagine the compassion she had and the passion that drove her to help all Americans not just the wealthy such as herself.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: maryboree on August 13, 2009, 04:58:34 PM
Hello everyb-o-d-y...  I've been lurking in this wonerful discussion for almost a week now (Ella's been urging me to join the discussion but I don't feel the need.) All of you are teaching me a part of history I did not know.  Frances Perkins was not a person I had heard of - which tells you how much of a history scholar I am. I think I've learned more from Harold, Jonathan and the rest of you since I first got involved here than I did throughout all my years in school. I really did not like history - boring, I thought!!! Not any more.

Someone asked how President Roosevelt pronounced his own name.  The answer is clearly revealed in the link that Ella gave us in his Oath of Office: "I, Franklin Delano Roosevelt ........" (as in Rose).  I had read that that was the correct pronunciation. but as either Jonathan or Harold mentioned, it's a bit like the potato/tomato preference.

This discussion has inspired me to dig out my 3 or 4 books that I have about FDR and which I some day plan to read.  I came across one that belonged to my parents, given to them by Olin Dows who was a neighbor and I think "related" in some fashion through the centuries to FDR.  He was a painter as he called himself.  He authored and illustrated a book in 1949 entitled "Franklin Roosevelt at Hyde Park."  At the time. my parents worked for his mother and him at Hyde Park and the copy he gave them he inscribed "To Maurice and Juliette Guadagnini with best wishes....from Olin Dows." They also met Eleanor Roosevelt once when she visited Mrs. Dows. That was a very special day for them.

It's a fascinating book and I'm wondering if any of you have read the book? In it there are quotes from various members of his family and also one that he includes of Frances Perkins, which was the real reason I wanted to go through his books. I've only read 58 pages so do not know what lies ahead.  
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 13, 2009, 06:50:56 PM
WELCOME, WELCOME. MARY. I don't know that book: it sounds very interesting.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 14, 2009, 09:24:40 AM
MARY, I AM DELIGHTED YOU JOINED US!  Read more of the book and tell us what the author says about Frances Perkins, this remarkable woman.

AND WE CAN HAVE A MINI TOWN HALL MEETING RIGHT HERE!  WONDERFUL!!

After all, this is the very meat of the book, of Frances Perkins' programs - what should government do for its citizens?  Many of the goverment programs we have today started with this Secretary of Labor.

Government interference in health care?

Hasn't goverment been interfering for years in various ways.  Child labor laws - should John Mitchel hve been allowed to go to work at the age of 13 in the coal mines?  Unemployment compensation - John Doe got laid off at work because his employer was losing money and needed to downsize.  He got paid for being out of work.  

It goes on and on.  Minimum wages; of course, there are good reasons.  Social Security, very good reasons.  Medicare, Medicaid, very good reason.

WHERE DOES THE GOVERNMENT STOP?  
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 14, 2009, 10:07:31 AM
When I heard the FDR oath i also heard him say Rose - velt, so i went back to the videos that i have used in my classes. One of them was of Eleanor telling a joke to soldiers in Australia during WWII and the punch line had "President Roosevelt" in it. She also said Rose-velt. That was the pronouciation that i had grown up hearing.

I don't know if you have this story in Kristen Downey's book, but i tho't this sounded like "de je vue, all over again" ala Yogie Berra - when talking about FP's first news conference, quote: "...she shrank from questions touching upon her personal life.......When one reporter persisted in asking questions about her husband, 'she did not conceal her displeasure.'" ........ are we talking about FP or Hillary Clinton? History keeps giving us these opportunities to compare and contrast..............

Ella - interference, or support? isn't that the question, which perspective does each individual have?............Rachal Maddow had a good illustration of that last night on her show, showing, first, conservative senators stating that the gov't HAD to become involved in the Terry Shiavo case to stop her family from carrying out their decision to remove her from life support systems. Then she showed the same senators today talking about NOT having gov't invovled in those decisions.......................In a democracy there is a constant conversation about individual rights and how far those rights can go and how much the gov't has to balance individual rts vs security of the society...................................so was FP protecting workers rights or interfering in employers rights to do what they want w/ "their property"? Your answer depends on your perspective, probably related to whatever side your parents were on.....................jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 14, 2009, 11:30:58 AM
Ella from message #202 Notes the following:

Obviously, the decade of the 30's had a more religious flavor than the present one.  Here is HAROLD stating that:

"Our gasoline gage was on low when we began to see people walking along the road many carrying bibles as if on their way to church.  My father stopped the car to ask two young men how to get out of the park.  They were CCC boys working on a park project.  They said they didn’t have anything to do so they were going to the evening service at a country church."

The general statement that there might have been more religious enthusiasm in the 1930’s may be true, but I would not think the specific example of Ozark mountain people on their way to church on that  1939 Sunday evening applicable to the country as a whole.    We had passed 3 or 4 small groups of mountain people (certainly not a typical cross-section of U.S. Population) some with Bibles  going the same direction as we were in the auto.. They were in family groups, men, women & children.  When we came to the two CC Boys I don’t remember them carrying Bibles.  They were in kaki uniforms.  When we stopped they said they were going to church to avoid the boredom of an evening in the barracks with nothing to do.   They crowded into our car with us for the last half mile to the church.  I now wonder how they made out thorough the coming years of WW II
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 14, 2009, 11:48:12 AM
Regarding the current Health Care discussion Thread; We have invited our congressman Charley Gonzalez to hold a town meeting  on the Health Care issue here at out Chandler Senior Independent Living Apartment.  We have no word on his acceptance of this invitation and I doubt that it will materialize, but if it does there will be no shouting, only questions on Health Care and perhaps other questions relative to each individual congressman's propensity to pad the budget with all kinds or irrational spending projects.   Again I doubt this Town Meeting willl occur. 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: maryboree on August 14, 2009, 12:24:14 PM
Hello Mabel!   your response to government interference verses individual rights is, in my opinion, correct.  No matter what, someone is going to be offended by things that are done or not done by our government. It is my belief that the government should help those who need assistance, whether in a financial crisis, illness or a loss of jobs, or unexpected emergency for various reasons.  But when it comes to building billion dollar bridges to nowhere as we sometimes hear, it really gets my blood boiling as it does with most people.

So in reading everyone's posts here, I believe FP was acting in the interest of the people.  As I understand it, she really was a perople's person.

And hello Bellamarie,  your mention of FP's carrying quarters to work and passing them out to poor peoplle at the red light took me back to age 5.  In 1931 my brother and I lived with a poor Italian family for 2 years who had 6 children of their own (my French parents were employed nearby as domestic servents) and during the summer months, we children were up early and outside doing ... whatever.  And one summer morning, at the crack of dawn, a lady driving a tiny dark blue Austin, drove by and threw lollipops in handfuls to us as she drove by. We must have looked like rag-a-muffins, I'm sure, but we scrambled to pick them all up and looked forward to tomorrow. This continued throughout the summer, and to this day I think of that lovely lady and wonder who she was, and to thank her for being so kind.  Those years were tough years for lots of needy people and FDR and FP was their lifesaver.

Ella, from what I'm reading in Franklin at Hyde Park, it doesn't appear that he actually brings people in government into this family story, but he does quote family and close friends on occasion.  I'll see as I read on and will let you know if there is any FP input.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on August 14, 2009, 12:49:56 PM
The rights of employers of what/whom they "own" ? Own?

But must rights - everybody's rights -  not also be balanced with responsibility?

When the federal government took steps to stop the abuse of children  and abominable conditions for adults in sweatshops, can that  really be called  interference?

Why this allergic reaction to the word "social" ?  
We accept the term readily enough in SOCIAL Security.  Social Security is,  in fact,  the mainstay, the livelihood for millions of Americans who were not to the manor born and never had a government job or one that entitled them to a pension, e.g.  the railroad ,  or the telephone or the electric company workers.
Therefore I submit to you that the word "social"  does not have political connotations ONLY.

SociaLISM, on the other hand,  became a political movement.  Marx and Engels (Das Kapital used it interchangeably with Communism.

Bellamarie
The right to free speech is to be  cherished and  treasured.
But shouting and talking OVER the utterances of  others serve no reasonable purpose IMHO.  They are dreadfully irritating to viewers and/or listeners and obscure what ANYBODY'S viewpoint is.

There are better ways of communication,   and I've used them in my position as an interpreter with international groups composed of people who not only had different OPINIONS but spoke different languages.

Ella,  there are countless examples in history, antedating the classical age, that give us a full hindsight perspective of successes and failures, of good times and bad, of heroes and villains,  in endless cyclic repetition, with wars an ineradicable constant.  What does that tell us about human nature?
We have not learned from even the most demonstrable, catastrophic mistakes, and we'll most likely repeat them ad infinitum.





Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 14, 2009, 02:58:29 PM
THIS JUST IN!

Social security, unemployment insurance, fair labor standards, child labor laws, workplace safety standards, overtime pay, minimum wage -- you can thank Frances Perkins for much of what we regard as essential rights belonging to American workers.

At the Frances Perkins Center, located at the Perkins family homestead in Newcastle, Maine, we honor her commitment to social justice, and continue her work to build a better life for all Americans.  - from the Frances Perkins Center (see heading)

individual rts vs security of the society
interests of the people.
responsibility?
social justice
essential rights


It's our government, we pay for it, we decide by representation what it does.

LET'S TALK ABOUT IT!


 








Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 14, 2009, 08:58:30 PM
Here are a few comments on my remembrances of my life during the Depression.  In the Summer of 1932 My father an office employee of the S.P. RR was transferred from San Antonio to Houston.  I was 5 years old going on six.  I think my Fathers salary was about 180/ a month, a livable wage at that time.  We lived first in a small brick house on west Clay  where I started to school.  We soon moved to another brick house on Damon Court,  but by 1934 we were in a 2 bedroom brick bungalow in the Heights at 733 E.16th street.  I went to the Eugene Field Elementary School.  At the time all of these houses were rental in the hands of a Bond and Mortgage Company who had foreclosed on a former purchaser after the depression began in 1929. The rent was quite likely in the 25 to 35 dollar per month range.  We moved back to San Antonio in the summer of 1936 when I was 9 years old.  My father disliked living in Houston and choose to resign from the Houston Job for a lesser paying employment in San Antonio where we lived in a larger frame home that they owned mortgage free that my parents had built in 1926.  

The E. 16 street address was really a fine little 2 bed room, single bath , with  living room dining room kitchen plus a small roofed-enclosed back porch.  In the 1960’s when my work often took me to Houston, I drove by the E. 16th Street house.  The drainage ditches along both sides of the street where I had fished for craw fish had been replaced with an underground storm sewer drainage system but the House looked in good shape just as I remembered it.  As a matter of fact in the late years of the 20th century that Heights sub-division on the near north side of downtown  Houston became popular with the value of those little brick houses spiraling up the multi hundred  thousand dollar range.  
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 14, 2009, 09:05:35 PM
straudetwo,
Quote
Bellamarie
The right to free speech is to be  cherished and  treasured.
But shouting and talking OVER the utterances of  others serve no reasonable purpose IMHO.  They are dreadfully irritating to viewers and/or listeners and obscure what ANYBODY'S viewpoint is.

There are better ways of communication,   and I've used them in my position as an interpreter with international groups composed of people who not only had different OPINIONS but spoke different languages.

I totally agree with you...... my point was that it is "The First Amendment." These people are frustrated because they are concerned that NO one is listening to them.  Sometimes you have to shout to get someone's attention.  There is NO danger of less cherished or treasured right to free speech, because a person expresses it loudly.  I think respect has to come from both the townshall people and the elected official.  When these seniors are being labled racists, mobs, Nazis, wackos, etc., that does not show the elected official is even willing to hear what they are saying.   They are making their point that these elected officials are suppose to be looking out for the voters best interest, NOT their own special interest groups.  

We can all see government involvement as interference depending on how you personally feel it will effect you directly.  

Mabel,
Quote
I don't know if you have this story in Kristen Downey's book, but i tho't this sounded like "de je vue, all over again" ala Yogie Berra - when talking about FP's first news conference, quote: "...she shrank from questions touching upon her personal life.......When one reporter persisted in asking questions about her husband, 'she did not conceal her displeasure.'" ........ are we talking about FP or Hillary Clinton? History keeps giving us these opportunities to compare and contrast..............

You make a very good point.  I have seen so many comparisons in this book to today's political scene that it is amazing.  I guess its true....History repeats itself.  Life is circular, we go around and around and here we are discussing and dealing with the exact same social justices/injustice  issues as in the 30's.  So....like I asked earlier, does anyone see a politician today that is "for the people" the way FP seemed to be back then?  I certainly can't think of one and that is not cynicism.

I'm still trying to understand why France Perkins got married with no friends or family attending her wedding. When I read that it puzzled me.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 14, 2009, 09:07:44 PM
maryboree,  Hello!  I loved your story about the lollipop lady.  I wonder who she was?  Thank you for sharing that with us.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 15, 2009, 10:50:01 AM
I think we all have profited from the experience of airing our attitudes towards health care reform in America; I do appreciate your frankness, but....

Golly Moses!  I just noticed the date and we have only today and tomorrow to finish up our discussion of the second week chapters in our Frances Perkins book.

FP's relations with the press, indeed, her entire attitude toward the press was unfriendly, almost hostile; whereas Eleanor Roosevelt, much in the news at the time, had very good press.

What was the difference between the two women?

Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi are two examples of women in the news today.  Both seem to be able to handle the press, don't you think?  What does it take to get good press. 

Is it more difficult for women than men? 

How would they be addressed if you were being introduced to them for the first time? 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 15, 2009, 12:47:19 PM
Ella, 
Quote
Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pols are two examples of women in the news today.  Both seem to be able to handle the press, don't you think?  What does it take to get good press.


I'm not so sure I agree with you on these two women being able to handle the press.  The press helped to ridicule Hillary throughout her campaign, showing her tears, reporting her cleavage shown and the most recent coverage of her trip to Africa on a mission of women's rights. The press found it more newsworthy to show how she responded to a question of "What does Mr. Clinton think."  The press has shown her response so many times over, referring to her as having a bad hair day, feeling fat, overtired etc.  NO mention of the women's rights and the good she did while there.  They used this opportunity to embrass her.  Not that her response was a shining moment for her, but the press did not have to adlib, and joke when showing it.

Nancy Pelosi is doing a fine job going in front of the press and  humiliating herself, but the press is happy to oblige her and repeat it over and over again. I rarely hear any positive coverage on her.

What does it take to get good press? 

In today's media in politics, if you are friends and colleagues of the special interest groups, and owners of the media stations, magazines, newspapers etc., you get positive coverage. 

Is it more difficult for women than men?

It is absolutely more difficult for women than men.  Look at how Frances Perkins decided to dress in a more subdued, matron fashion so as not to draw attention to her feminism.  She tried to down play her sex so the press would take her seriously.  The press covers women's appearances, fashion and personalities verses they cover men's accomplishments.  Hillary was jabbed at for wearing pant suits, yet when she did wear a blouse they mentioned too much cleavage.  Michelle Obama has had her tennis shoes, handbags, hair and fashion commented on, rather than her causes she cares about. I don't think I recall the press mentioning men's attire, brand of wallets or watches they have etc.

Women have come a long way in this country, but when it comes to the press, women are always going to be treated less important.

When the sports reporter Erin Andrews was photographed by someone while in her hotel room, media coverage mentioned she was part to blame for being so attractive.  Others said she asked for it because of the clothes she wore. Media today rips women apart no matter how successful they are in what ever career they are in. 

Frances Perkins knew she would have to conform to the press in some way in order to be taken seriously.  I can not blame her hostility towards their invasive questions.  If FDR had not taken a liking to Perkins....she would never have accomplished her mission, because as the book states, the men she met treated her coldly and snubbed her.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 15, 2009, 12:48:35 PM
Ella,
IMHO, the citizens who voted in the men and women who serve in Congress and in the Presidency,  need to read this  health bill, HR3200??? Is that it?  Yes, here 'tis:  

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.3200: (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.3200:)

There is more disruption of our lives than just the "death panels" which have been taken off the table as of yesterday.  Here's is one point from that bill.

If you work for a business which provides medical benefits but you choose not to participate in their plan because your spouse or parent has you covered in their plan with another company, your company has to pay a FINE which is a percentage of the business's payroll because he/she is not providing medical benefits for ALL all of the employees, due to the fact that you have chosen to be covered by your spouse's company.  This is so twisted that not even I understand it. But, its in HR3200.

While we are upset with the HR 3200, another czar has been appointed for the FCC and his plan is even more odious than the health bill.  Fines will be levied on broadcasting companies who don't give equal time to liberal , Christian, and conservative radio personalities. Are we back in the 30's when Hitler took over Germany?

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/52435 (http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/52435)
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 15, 2009, 01:31:51 PM
AMEN! to everything Bellemarie said about women and the press! FP was a real pioneer it that arena as well as in bringing forth new political/social issues.

Annie - the problem w/ the discussion of health care at the moment is that we don't have a REAL bill to discuss yet. There are 3 or 4 in varioius committees. I'm pretty sure that if an employee has opted out of the health ins program of their employer that, in the end, the employer will not be penalized - however, i can foresee a circumstance where employees may be coerced into signing something that says they opt out, when they really didn't want to, if it got their employer of the hook. As for equal time on broadcast stations, we had equal time, politically, for many years. That was rescinded and i'm not sure that was a good thing. It's why we now have MSNBC and FOX being so vitriolic on their side of issues.

Going to church for entertainment? I can remember that. In the days beforetv, or before there were so many music venues in almost every town and a multiplex movie theater every mile or so, going to church/tent mtgs/ Elmer Gantry-type evangelical mtgs was great free entertainment for many folks. Even tho i was never particularly interested in religion, as a teen-ager i attended many "tent" mtgs because there were other teen-agers there, particularly boys, and i loved the music. That has been true thruout history and was one of the reasons people in the 1700's and the 1830's went to hear Methodist/Baptist/ etc. ministers during what was called "The Great AWakenings" - it was drama! It was fun! It was a way of mtg other people, especially for farmers who were isolated all day. Many people still go to church to be a part of a community or to have a social life, as well as for the spirituality of the event. ............jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 15, 2009, 02:21:24 PM
re: women and the press - did you see the woman being dragged out of Sen McCaskill's town hall mtg? Apparently she was provoked by a man who tore up her poster of Rosa Parks! Yes! Rosa Parks!............even tho the man who tore up her poster was also escorted out, that was not shown by the press.

From Huffington Post: "Among the many eyebrow-raising clips aired on major news networks yesterday from Senator Claire McCaskill's health care town hall was one of a woman being half-escorted, half-dragged from the building.

What the clip failed to catch was that the woman was provoked. She and a few other women had brought posters to the town hall, but they rolled them up after being booed and berated by the crowd. When the woman unrolled one to show to a journalist, an angry man in the crowd rushed over and tore it up. A poster of what, you ask? Rosa Parks. When the woman moved to take her poster back, the police stepped in and escorted both parties from the building. But only the woman made national news."....................jean



Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 15, 2009, 02:45:37 PM
Why has Frances Perkins been forgotten?

Page 159. 'Frances's accomplishments somehow began to get lost amid the swirl of publicity about FDR's initiatives.'

Page 161. 'Her secretive nature, however, assured that little was known of Frances's life at work and at home.'

Much of her life remained hidden behind a veil, we were told earlier. Yet she made such a huge contribution in her instigating and implementing so many New Deal policies. So it's interesting to learn of FP's feelings about the Roosevelt 'brain trust', that group who got, and even yet somehow in the public's vague memory, get credit for the initiatives.

Not so, says FP. They were just the speechwriters, hired just to dress up the ideas of the president, many of which were, in fact, her ideas. She always had a long 'to do' list.

We've only heard the half of it after eighteen chapters, of this remarkable Frances Perkins, who courted the wealthy and waged a war on poverty with her pocketful of quarters and all she could get out of the U.S. treasury for legally constituted relief works and financial safety nets.

Why did Frances and Paul get married so suddenly and so quietly? Panic, I suppose.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 15, 2009, 03:21:25 PM
Jean,
Although the bill isn't completely done, just reading about those articles and pages and government control is certainly chilling to me.

As to the FCC diversity Czar and his plans for the public and private broadcasters, I find it even more chilling than the HC bill.  The man wrote a book on the topic earlier in the 2005,??, maybe.  We do not need the government telling us what we will listen to on the radio or what we are watching on TV nor do we need the private broadcasters supporting public broadcasters through a tax placed on the earnings of the private sector.  There are rules already in place for FCC to follow.  Enough government control, already!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: EvelynMC on August 15, 2009, 06:23:05 PM
Ella,
You asked where some of us are. I am reading along with you folks and am almost finished with this week's assigned reading and now have to hurry to finish so I can start on next week's chapters.

Frances Perkins was remarkable and I am so glad so many of her ideas were made into law.

About Harold's story regarding the two CCC boys on their way to church on Sunday evening.  Someone posted wondering why they weren't in the barracks drinking beer and playing cards.  Well, in Arkansas there wouldn't have been any beer available.  Arkansas was "dry" then and still is in most counties of the state.  And back then nothing else would have been open on a Sunday except church.

Evelyn 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 15, 2009, 07:26:36 PM
Wonderful discussion, isn't it, with a wide range of opinions!  We are so fortunate in our "doddering" (well, me, that is!) age to have remarks to consider from others all across the USA without traveling a long distance!

It's remarkable!  I want to thank you all for your comments!

BELLEMARIE, I agree with you almost 100%.  What should women do who want to be taken seriously by the press and the public?  Dress matronly?  Oh, come, on, it would be laughable.  Perhaps, they just have to be very knowledgeable, even more so, than men and work harder at their jobs to be taken seriously?

I don't know.  Men have their problems, also, particularly with "affairs" outside of marriage.  Happens more to men, haven't you noticed?  Particularly lately?  FDR had his problems; it has been speculated that the only president since then that was truly faithful was Harry Truman, who loved his Bess.

Your statement - "If FDR had not taken a liking to Perkins....she would never have accomplished her mission" - needs an addition or correction, I feel.  Perkins had experience in labor movements, commissions, organizations.  That's what got her the job!

ANN, thank you for posting those clickables.  It would take study, wouldn't it?  I read a few paragraphs and I see where advisory committees would be set up to study the initiatives being taken, particularly that "self-insure" initiative.  

As JEAN said, the bill has not come out of the House yet and what there is of it needs to be clarified to the public.  Why doesn't someone use a graph on posters to show us exactly what the bill proposes?  

As mentioned in a few posts, the harsh and strident voices of people present at these town meetings are not going to impress most of us; not me anyway.  I want clarity, civility.

I've always felt what has driven radio and TV is business, not the government, and I can't believe that would change.  Business pays for it; all those awful commercials, those necessary commercials!

But free speech, free press, our bill of rights!  Probably each of us see our representatives, our  government, differently.  It's as it should be, diversity in all things.

HELLO, JONATHAN.  I wanted to thank you for your remarks about the Canadian health system.  We here in the states must do something about our spiraling costs, our federal debt.  What that will be, and when, whether in this administration or next, remains the unanswered question.

But back to the book.  We have not arrived in our discussion at the White House yet have we?  And FDR?  That will change soon.

Thanks EVELYN, for your comments!  Arkansas is still dry?  I had no idea!  The home of Bill Clinton, but then Bill found other pleasures didn't he?

TRAUDE, I agree socialism is a pollitical movement, up there with communism, fascism, capitalism, etc.  But interference by the government is not all bad, actually we think alike.  We needed labor laws, and Perkins was our man (as someone once called her; a comment that amused FDR)

HAROLD, I loved your remembrances of the Depression years but I think your family came through those years intact and with not a lot of suffering.  We should state some of the circumstances that many families endured during that decade.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 15, 2009, 07:31:44 PM
THE DEPRESSION YEARS:

A third of the working population had no jobs.
One in six homes was lost to foreclosure.
Charitable organizations ran out of resources and closed their doors.
The sick stopped going to doctors because they couldn't pay.
Doctors were in the breadlines.

(page 149 of our book)
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 15, 2009, 11:16:09 PM
Henry Wallace,  Mary Harriman (Averill Harriman’s sister),  Harry S. Truman, Henry Morgenthau, Alice Roosevelt Longworth.

Are you familiar with any of those names?

GUESS WHO IS COMING FOR DESSERT?    Didn’t you love the story of page 165 wherein the head of U.S. Steel was invited for dessert in MaryH’s house and was startled to confront Green, AFL president?

What was the result of that meeting?

Had you ever heard the expression "Boston marriages"before reading about it on pg. 167?  And does it matter historically whether Frances Perkins lived with wealthy women, paid part of the expenses or traded on her “celebrity” status in the government?

Of course, it makes interesting reading, but wouldn’t FP hate the publicity?  

Is it true that once a person becomes a public figure in any sphere, they must accept the fact that their private lives are going to become public?  

Is scandal in a prominent figure’s life more apt to make that person remembered in history?

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on August 16, 2009, 05:44:48 PM
Henry Wallace, Sec. of Agriculture, later Vice-President, front page news along with FDR -
http://www.life.com/image/50452909

News Photo, Henry Morgenthau Jr., Secretary of the Treasury under FDR.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/media_ph.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007408&MediaId=6350

Mary Harriman and how women entered party politics -
http://tiny.cc/kj5Xt

Photos, Alice Roosevelt Longworth -
http://www.aliceroosevelt.com/photo-album.htm

Photo, Harry S. Truman and FDR
http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Harry-Truman-and-Franklin-D-Roosevelt-Posters_i2508523_.htm

Photo, Harry Truman with his wife, Bess and Eleanor Roosevelt.
http://www.life.com/image/50577471
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on August 16, 2009, 05:56:11 PM
I remember horrifying my mother when I pasted a large full page newspaper color photo of Henry Wallace in our front window when he was running for president. Mom was an FDR man all the way - I had no clue what I was doing except he looked pretty and therefore he should be president - also he made a speech something about the common man and I thought that was it...! My Father with a catch of humor in his voice said to my Mom 'let her be - you won't be tarred and feathered'
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 17, 2009, 08:33:47 AM
Hahahaaa BARBARA!  AND THANKS for the clickables!

DID EVERYONE SLEEP THROUGH THE WEEKEND?  It was very hot and humid in Ohio, not good walking weather, for sure!

I just got an email from Kirstin stating that she has been trying to log on, but finding a problem and asked if we had any difficulties.

I haven't, have any of you?  

Isn't it wonderful to have an author in our midst.  I am sure she will answer Jonathan and Joan's questions when she finds us.

SO WHAT ARE BOSTON MARRIAGES?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_marriage.

FP and Mary Harriman, of the Harriman family, a wealthy family, lived together in Washington, had such a relationship.  She needed a home, having very little money with her financial situation helping maintain Paul who was in and out of sanitariums and Susan who needed so much!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averill_Harriman

I'll be putting new questions in the heading today and we must move to our next chapters.  

We are halfway through our book, through Frances Perkins' life and now she arrives in the cabinet and Washington and we will hear more about FDR!

How familiar are you with that famous president?  What do you know of his life besides his marriage to Eleanor and, of course, WWII/

WAKE UP, WAKE UP!



Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 17, 2009, 10:20:56 AM
Ella, 
Quote
Thanks EVELYN, for your comments!  Arkansas is still dry?  I had no idea!  The home of Bill Clinton, but then Bill found other pleasures didn't he?

Just like many other of our Presidents before him. 

BarbStAubrey, 
Quote
I remember horrifying my mother when I pasted a large full page newspaper color photo of Henry Wallace in our front window when he was running for president. Mom was an FDR man all the way - I had no clue what I was doing except he looked pretty and therefore he should be president - also he made a speech something about the common man and I thought that was it...! My Father with a catch of humor in his voice said to my Mom 'let her be - you won't be tarred and feathered' 
 

I wonder how many others were drawn to politcians resulting in them voting for them for the same reason you stated,  "he looked pretty and therefore he should be president".   I know JFK, Clinton and Obama can easily fall into that mind set of people.  I only say those three because they are the most recent who are very handsome and charismatic.  Does the average person really get involved enough to really know what these politicians policies are?  Not that any of them keep their promises once elected.

So it does amaze me how Frances Perkins at her first meeting with FDR stated she would consider the position ONLY if he was behind her ideas and would push them and she and FDR indeed did follow through and were not sidetracked by other special interest groups.

ADOANNIE,
Quote
Although the bill isn't completely done, just reading about those articles and pages and government control is certainly chilling to me.

They are chilling to me and 84% of the Americans who already have health care and are happy with it.  NO ONE including the committee members in charge of this health care reform bill knows exactly what it consists of and what it will cost and how we will pay for it.  A member on the committee stated on Sunday's show that this is NOT President Obama's bill because he appointed a committee and told them to come up with something.  Hmmm...Obama is out pushing for support for something he has no clue what it is.  No bill needs to be 600 - 1,000 pages, makes you wonder why so long and what are they hoping you will overlook in all those pages, if indeed you bother to read the lengthy bill at all.  The problem is its so complex because they are trying to appease the AMA, AARP, Pharmacueticals, Insurance companies, Hospitals and other special interest groups, rather than the American people.

Frances Perkins kept it pretty simple, she was for the average American, and pretty much stood up to the special interest goups back in her time.  Imagine that.  She sure had to ruffle a lot of feathers, but didn't seem to mind no matter who they were.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 17, 2009, 11:09:18 AM
I am interested in reading about women in politics back then.  We had a discussion about Frank Lloyd Wright's paramor and her activity in the suffrage battles. Mamah Cheney was involved in the marches out in Colorado early in the movement. Also, don't miss watching "Iron Jawed Angels" about the suffragettes.  New movie and very well done.  I had no idea of the work that these women put into getting the vote for women.  Or how ill treated they were.  We have a lot to thank them for.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 17, 2009, 11:28:55 AM
In Chapter 19 Frances turned to the promotion of legislation that actually created new jobs through federally financed Make Work projects.  There was considerable opposition to this legislation in congress even among the large Democrat majority.  Even FDR waffled on the cost issue.  Frances continue to call for large money appropriations necessary to give the bill effect, and once again after a private session with FDR, the President changed his stand on the issue by calling on key Democrat congressional leaders to support the necessary large appropriation of funds necessary to finance the project.  The bill passed Congress with 3.3 billion dollars to finance its ambitious jobs creation program.

The constitutionality of the bill was suspect from the start because of its provision calling for the creation of specific Industrial codes for each industry.  The provisions for writing each of these codes required labor representation and  involved infringement on basic legal issues including basic right to contract, price fixing, antitrust laws and more.  Nevertheless it would take several years for the issues to make their way through the courts.

 In Houston in 1935-36, I remember the numerous Blue Eagle-WPA posters plastered inside and outside the garage of a house across E. 16th street.  That family ran a floor refinishing business from their home financed by the Work Projects administration.  They operated several trucks each manned with a crew of 4 or 5 men with electric sanders and painting equipment.  Every little bit helped!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 17, 2009, 11:31:35 AM
Ella, Had you ever heard the expression "Boston marriages"before reading about it on pg. 167?  And does it matter historically whether Frances Perkins lived with wealthy women, paid part of the expenses or traded on her “celebrity” status in the government?

Of course, it makes interesting reading, but wouldn't FP hate the publicity? 

Is it true that once a person becomes a public figure in any sphere, they must accept the fact that their private lives are going to become public?   

Is scandal in a prominent figure's life more apt to make that person remembered in history?

It's interesting how you ask about Frances trading on her celebrity status in government.  I think it is the sign of the times.  Prominent people want privacy, yet when they want to use media for their own special interests they contact the press.  I do believe once you place your life into a public position whether it be politics, hollywood, commentators, sports etc. you have to know your life to a certain point will be invaded.  I've read where certain people would call the press and alert them and invite them to be at places for their purposes, yet then complain when the press was there when they did not want the public to know what they were doing.  The press can be a double edge sword.

As far as a scandal making a person more memorable, I think in time it fades off and new generations tend to not care about it.  My kids who are in their 20's & 30's could care less about Princess Di, JFK, Bill Clinton, or John Edwards scandalous lives.  I think in the long term, a person who has done great things will be more remembered generations to come rather than scandals.  Except for Nixon,  now Watergate will probably remain a notorious, memorable event throughout history.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 17, 2009, 11:51:12 AM
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/perkinsfran/perkinscvr.jpg)

The Woman Behind the New Deal:
     The Life of Frances Perkins,
          FDR'S Secretary of Labor and His Moral Conscience

               by Kirstin  Downey


Links:
Frances Perkins Center (http://francesperkinscenter.org/)
Frances Perkins, Dept. of Labor (http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/history/perkins.htm)
Jane Addams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Addams)
[Frances Perkins Speech (http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=250364&ac=PHnws)

Discussion
August   l -  8    
August  9 - 15  
August 16 - 22    
August 23 - 31

Schedule
Chapters 1-9
Chapters 10-18
Chapters 19-27
Chapters 28-38


FOR CONSIDERATION


Should FDR have known about the situation in Germany in 1933 when he gave instructions to the American Ambassador to Germany? (pg.189)

Frances knew restrictive immigration policies were politically popular (191).  Why?  Is it today?  What is our immigration policy today?

Was the fact that unions did not admit women a factor in FP’s administration?  How did she deal with this union policy?

Roosevelt attempted to remain aloof during labor strikes and let FP handle disturbances.   Did it make FP’s more difficult or easier?

Frances was inspired by Europe’s old-age pensions in planning for social security..  Would there have been the program had FP not initiated it?  

“Roosevelt liked to have committee deliberations led by a Cabinet officer and handled with little publicity.  “Remember, Papa wants to know first what you’re thinking about….I don’t want to wake up and read in the paper what this committee is about to report.”  

“When there was a big splash to be made, he would make it and take credit for it.” (pg.233)   Did FP resent this?  

Was this the reason that FP has been forgotten by history?




Discussion Leaders:   Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) and Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com)



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ADOAnnie,
Quote
While we are upset with the HR 3200, another czar has been appointed for the FCC and his plan is even more odious than the health bill.  Fines will be levied on broadcasting companies who don't give equal time to liberal , Christian, and conservative radio personalities. Are we back in the 30's when Hitler took over Germany?

It could seem we are headed in that direction.  People have a choice which radio stations and television stations they listen to or watch.  Why do we need the FCC to sanction fines if these stations do not give equal time?  All you have to do is change to the station that is what you want to listen to.  The majority of the media has been so slanted in the past year, but because more Americans are turning away from them to get a different view we are now needing the FCC to step in.  Is that like trying to force people to listen to what they want to spoon feed us?  I for one will simply turn off the station and go to the internet for my news if that is the case.

I am not in support of these appointed Czars.  More waste in government money as far as I am concerned.  Every week it seems one more Czar has been appointed.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 17, 2009, 12:07:27 PM
"So it does amaze me how Frances Perkins at her first meeting with FDR stated she would consider the position ONLY if he was behind her ideas and would push them" - Bellemarie

At the first meeting!  What audacity!  Did she know him well enough to do this?  Or was she secure or confident that he would approve of her suggestions?  What do you think?

"The constitutionality of the bill (to finance the bill for appropriations) was suspect from the start because of its provision calling for the creation of specific Industrial codes for each industry.  The provisions for writing each of these codes required labor representation and  involved infringement on basic legal issues including basic right to contract, price fixing, antitrust laws and more." - Harold

Illegal stuff, right?  What happened to the bill eventually?

 "Prominent people want privacy, yet when they want to use media for their own special interests they contact the press." - Bellemarie

True.  Is there a solution?





Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 17, 2009, 12:09:35 PM
We are getting off track here by discussing what the government is doing now in the HC program.  I think maybe we ought to be discussing this in SL's Talking Heads discussion which is here:


http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.160 (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.160)
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 17, 2009, 12:15:23 PM
Thanks, ANN, for the clickable.  I think we are back on track now.  We digressed a bit.

NEW QUESTIONS IN THE HEADING!!!  New Chapters, New Week!  
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 17, 2009, 12:37:46 PM
What a fierce debate you folks are having in the town halls and public squares of America regarding innovations in your  health care system. The costs we hear are spiralling. Even the well to do, we hear, are going for the savings by flying to places like India, China,  North Korea and Cuba for top end medical procedures.

One more thing about our Canadian health care system. Harold posted about meeting Canadians in Texas, down there for medical treatments. Our system is so good it will pay for medical treatment outside Canada, if that treatment is unavailable at home. It caused a great scandal a few years ago when it was discovered that an alcoholic Canadian had cost us half a million dollars with his annual winter holiday in a southern state, being 'treated' in a state of the art detox center.

The upcoming chapters give us a good picture of how FP adapted herself to high government leadership. Took to it, it almost seems, like duck to water. While careful not to ruffle male feathers, she took a back seat to none of them. Made a few enemies, but that's inevitable. Being labelled that 'communist Secretary of Labor' was inevitable given the spirit of the time. Why did she ever get involved in the International Labor Organization with its known connections to radical elements? Ditto for her overly sympathetic  concern for the plight of the desperate refugees fleeing Hitler's Germany. Given the eventual impeachment proceedings over her handling of the immigration problems, makes it seem like that bureau quickly turned into her personal Viet Nam.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 17, 2009, 12:48:31 PM
I think because FDR's times and today's times are so paralel to each other you can't avoid touching on their ideas and polocies that would bring an end to the economic crisis.  Frances Perkins was indeed an advocate for programs of social justice.  Her ideas of social security, insurance to cover employees etc.  Americans either are for or against these bills and voice their postions and opinions.  With the copper workers strike back in 1919, Perkins recalled, the copper workers felt abused.  Perkins asked her fellow commissioners to come to Rome to hold a public hearing.  John Mitchell addressed the packed courtroom, and made this moving speech, " These are workmen.  These are human beings.  God made them.  They live here.  They work here.  They must be treated like human beings and when they are not, the resentments that gather are terrible indeed.  Because they have been so insulted they are so insistent upon having what they believe to be right and justice and having it guaranteed by the State Industrial  Commission.  The audience spontaneously broke out in applause.  That night Perkins spoke to Smith, reporting that the strike was for all intents and purposes settled.  During the rest of Smith's first term as governor, Perkins helped correct corrupt practices in the workmen's compensation division of the Industrial Commission.  Sometimes the employers and their insurance companies would persuade workers to sign agreements for quick settlement without informing the injured workers that they were entitled to collect further money for permanent partial disabilities.

Is this NOT how the people feel today?  Are we not being informed about how these bills will effect us?  Where is our Frances Perkins to stand up for our social justices? 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 17, 2009, 02:16:00 PM
I've often heard women busy with careers complain that they need a "wife"-- someone to do all the things that a wife does for a prominant man: entertain, keep the household and finances running, help the children etc. etc. As well as provide someone to talk to and share at the end of the day. I'm sure that Mary Harriman fulfilled those functins for FP, and I'm glad she had someone. Her husband couldn't help: if she had turned to another man, there would have been even more scandal.

Whether the relationship was physical or not, we'll never know, and frankly, it's none of our business. Successful women are often accused of being lesbians: it's part of the putdowns they experience.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 17, 2009, 02:37:10 PM
The next chapters start out talking about immegration. I always get upset when reminded of the US's failure to allow Jews trying to escape Hitler to come to this country. It is a blot on our history.

It sounds like FP did everything she could to try to bring escaping Jews to this country. But everything was blocked by the State Department. If I remember correctly, In "No Ordinary Time", Doris Kearns Goodwin's biography of FDR during the war years, she said that the State Department official in charge of this matter was openly anti-semitic, and was urging FDR to keep the Jews out.

During the Depression,  Kirsten says that FDR was concerned with the high unemployment rate. Immegrants would either add to it, or take needed jobs from Americans. once the war started, that was no longer a concern: able-bodied men were needed. But then the State Department argued that Hitler could send over spies with the program.

Ordinary Jews could only come over if they had a sponser. I'm very proud of the fact that my parents, although not Jewish, were among the few who did sponsor a refugee from the camps. She lived with us for awhile. By day, she was a pretty, shy teenager. But she slept above my bedroom, and at night, I would hear her screaming in her sleep.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JeanClark on August 17, 2009, 03:42:01 PM
Jean Clark; I am a new member, haven't read the book yet but have many memories of my father ranting about her. He was so against women in governmen ,had the barefoot in winter and pregnant in summer mentality. She had so much to contend with, sick husband, child and public opinion and she held up so well under all the pressure.She lived with a woman for years and rumor was that she was a lesbian, but many Women in that era were who tried to work in a man's world faced the same accusation.It is amazing that she was able to accomplish so much in  the face of such adversity.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 17, 2009, 03:44:52 PM
JoanK,
Quote
Whether the relationship was physical or not, we'll never know, and frankly, it's none of our business. Successful women are often accused of being lesbians: it's part of the putdowns they experience.

You bring up an interesting thought.  I guess I never considered this because she had married and had a child.  I know it said she was hesitant to get married and did marry more so to stop people from asking about it.  Do you suspect the press and others were giving it consideration?  Back in the early 1900's that could or would have been a deal breaker in a woman's career, not to menion her reputation socially.  In Europe I think it was more socially acceptable.  I saw Frances as a person so involved in her professional aspirations and her passion towards social justice,  that marriage would have only slowed her down.  She truly remained loyal to caring for her husband.  But as you pointed out, " it's none of our business.", although considering how some politicians have been judged so  harshly and asked to step down or be impeached due to their indiscretions and sexual orientations, is it really none of the voters business?  Gives you food for thought.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 17, 2009, 04:09:11 PM
JEAN: WELCOME, WELCOME! There is certainly plenty to discuss here!!! I gather you didn't exactly agree with your father!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 17, 2009, 04:18:04 PM
What was the purpose of the NRA and was it successful?  

National Recovery Administration, or NRA, was signed by Roosevelt on June 16, 1933, one of the first significant New Deal programs to attempt to revive the economy.  The act authorized the President to institute industrywide codes with the binding effect of law upon the regulation of the industry.  The purpose of the codes was to eliminate unfair trade practices, limit or abolish child labor, establish minimum wages and maximum hours, and guarantee the right of labor to bargain collectively_goals dear to Perkin's heart.  (The second essential element of the NIRA instituted a public works program, run by the Secretary of the Interior Harold Ickes.)  Perkins accepted every opportunity she was given to explain to the country the purposes of the NRA.  In a speech in Brooklyn, New York, for example, she later recalled, "I undertook to show one of the great purposes of the NRA.  I said that by starting up the wheels of industry and putting more money in the pay envelopes, there would then be money to spend, and the people who got the pay envelopes with this better wage for a better day's work would have money to spend.  They would spend it on merchandise."

A little  more than six months later, the Supreme Court ruled that the NRA was unconstitutional, because its codes regulated not only interstate commerce, but also commerce within individual states.(The public works part of the NRA was not ruled unconstitutional, although some other New Deal measures were.)

In her biography of Roosevelt, Perkins described a conference she has with the President before the negative Supreme Court decision.  He laughed at her "New England caution" when she told him that even if the court's ruling was negative, she had two bill locked up in her lower left-hand drawer that "will do everything you and I think important under NRA," namely, "putting a floor under wages and ceiling over hours."  

The Public Contracts Act, which became law in June 1936
Fair Labor Standards Act, also called the Wages and Hours Act, signed June 1938.
____________________________________________

So the answer to your question, was it successful?  Yes, indeed it was, Frances just had to go around about the Supreme Court to make it constitutional, and that she was prepared for.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Kirstin Downey on August 17, 2009, 06:28:20 PM
Hi...Am reading everyone's thoughts and comments with interest. I can understand why people are anxious to avoid wading too far into the health care debate unfolding in America today, but it is certainly worth noting that Frances Perkins believed her biggest piece of unfinished business was the failure to enact national health insurance for everyone during the Roosevelt Administration. Of course, Democrats who followed FDR built on Frances's work and were able to enact Medicare, a government-financed program, but it applies only to senior citizens. I would imagine that most of the people participating here on this forum are fortunate enough to receive coverage through Medicare.

I was a reporter for the Washington Post for 20 years--I'm 52 now. My friends who have lost their jobs in the newspaper industry in recent years are terrified about their lack of insurance. I'm fortunately married to a man who works for the government and we have health insurance through him.

Does anyone here remember what used to happen to senior citizens BEFORE Medicare existed?   
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 17, 2009, 07:37:42 PM
Kirstin, Hello!  It is very nice to see you have had the time to read our  posts and we thank you so much for posting with your thoughts.  If I  may address your post with all due respect I would like to say, first, I am not the least bit anxious to avoid wading too far into the health care debate unfolding in America today.  I sense there are a few in our group who prefers we stick to Frances Perkins rather than this debate due to the fact it causes so much discourse, since we individually take it personally and feel so different about it depending on our party loyalty, age, insurance or lack there off.  Our dear Canadian friend seems to be very satisfied with their system and seems to feel we Americans would be better off if we had the same.  Then there are others including myself who feel we are satisfied with what we now have and do not want more government interference in our lives.  At what point is providing everything for the people harmful in the fact it does not allow us to have control of our lives?

I am not yet at the age to receive Medicare as you suspected most of the people here posting are.  But, if I may say, I know many who are and do not want the government to change it with this new health care reform bill.

You state your friends are terrified about their lack of insurance, but you fortunately are covered by your husband's government health insurance.  My question to all the government senators, congressmen/women, czars and President Obama is this, "Why if they want to reform health care and make it universal, do they NOT want us to have the exact same health care insurance they have for themselves?"  The definition for "Universal" in my Webster's Standard dictionary is: u.ni.ver'sal  adj.  common everywhere; including all things, persons, etc. without exception.

My husband also works for the federal government and we do NOT  have as good a health insurance plan as the above mentioned government workers.  Our plan covers far less than your average auto worker's plan. So again, I ask, WHY if they are pushing for UNIVERSAL health care, they are not willing to give every American the same coverage as themselves?

Had Frances Perkins and FDR accomplished to enact national health insurance back then, I strongly believe she would have managed to do a much better job in fairness for everyone, than this reform bill is purposing.

Just to quote FDR, the day after he was nominated by the DNC in July 1932, in his acceptance speech he said, "I pledge you, I pledge myself to a new deal for the American people."  Interpreting the phrase's meaning in The Roosevelt I Knew, Perkins explained: "the new deal' meant that the forgotten man, the little man, the man nobody knew much about, was going to be dealt a better cards to play with."

I would like to challenge this present house of representatives, congress, and President to rise up to this pledge.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on August 17, 2009, 09:43:14 PM
 I am remembering the nightmare before Social Security never mind Medicare - taking care of ageing parents pitched grown children against each other as they tried to figure out who could take or who could send money to help support the parents - and the aged parents we can identify with - they were our age - they had no say about their life.

Granted the depression took anything they had that may have been set aside for their old age but most had little in savings to begin with since their generation put everything into making a place or developing a farm or whatever so their children, our parents were not living in poverty. It must have been heart breaking for them to see so many of their children, our parents slip back into poverty because of the great depression.

As to medical care back before WWII - there was very little - sure Doctor's came to the house and in our house the Doctor was mostly paid in eggs and chickens - we had some shots available by the end of the 1930s but most medicine was a crude attempt with Penicillin coming along just in time for the soldiers fighting in WWII and it was almost exclusively available only to the soldiers. Sulphur - big fat red ugly tasting wafers of Sulphur is all the citizens had if they were very ill.

There were only a few aspirin manufactures - I think about 5 with Bayer being one - when Bayer built their factory in Rensselaer New York it was one of the arms of the German cartel that included IG Farben, a dye company [remember when we were kids our yellow lead pencils with IG Farben written on the side] - They made the mustard gas used in WWI

IG Farben built a factory for producing synthetic oil and rubber (from coal) in Auschwitz, which was the beginning of SS activity and camps in this location during the Holocaust. With Standard Oil in business with Farben during the war no telling how much we as average citizens contributed to the concentration camps.  

Reading about pharmaceutical companies is like reading about the atrocities of human endeavors - we forget the secret tests performed on the uneducated African Population in the later part of the twentieth century - it goes on and on - and so to me Health Care benefits is only the tip of the iceburg - if there was any way to affect a moral compass to this industry that to me would be bigger than anything this world has ever accomplished.

Some place I remember reading a question why Frances Perkins was not spending her energy in strengthening businesses - easy - she was Secretary of Labor not Secretary of Commerce. We forget it was normal and usual for a 6 day work week of 10 hours a day with no coffee breaks. It was also normal for kids to be working these hours.    It was in 1938 that ushered in the 40 hour work week among great protest that we would all go down the river. This time was also the start of  kids under the age of 16 had to have work permits.

http://www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/40-234x300.jpg

Here all these years I blessed the soul of FDR and it was actually Frances Perkins whose soul I should have been blessing.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 17, 2009, 10:45:49 PM
BarbStAubrey, Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and knowledge with us.  I shiver at the thought of your statement about how much we could have contributed to the concentration camps.  It reminds me of the news reporting about GE being investigated for possibly helping supply roadside warhead bombs to terrorists nations that could have contributed to help kill our American soldiers.  I shudder to think of how many GE appliances I have bought and how watching NBC who is owned by GE helped contribute to their dealings.  We are innocent citizens, until we are infomed.   

I think without FDR, Frances Perkins could not have accomplished all she did, so blessing FDR was not in folly, just now you can bless FP's soul too.  To quote Perkins, "I wasn't primarily interested in making Roosevelt President.  I was interested in promoting proper labor and social legislation in the State of New York, and if he wanted to be President, in the USA  If Roosevelt was going to be President, or if Smith  was going to be President-they were the only two people whose Presidential aspirations I had ever been interested in-my concern was to see that they were Presidents who promoted the line of social justice I thought important." 

It's pretty clear, Frances needed a President in office that would promote her programs.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 18, 2009, 10:30:15 AM
WHAT GREAT POSTS I'M READING THIS MORNING!  THANK YOU ALL SO VERY MUCH!  

AND KIRSTIN IS HERE!  DELIGHTFUL!  


WELCOME TO JEAN CLARK, A NEWCOMER!  

From reading all your posts, I believe that all of you are very enthusiastic about the accomplishments of Frances Perkins!!   (hahahaaaa)  And as Jean said, she was able to do so much even with her personal problems at home.

Kirstin, you chose your subject well!  However, I don't think any of us are reluctant to discuss health care reform, but as you so astutely commented many of us are recipients of Medicare and justifiably worred!

The newspaper industry!  Troubled industry!  I am attending a seminar next week on the Shrinking Newspaper; all of us are dreading the day we will not have a newspaper to read with our morning coffee.   Of course, your friends are worried.  Do you any possible suggestions about the future of the printed news?

I am a widow and receive the SS from my husband's working years and a small pension of my own.  Reform will come in time, possibly raising the retirement age?  I don't know.  What we all know is that the costs of such programs for senior citizens are spiraling out of control; we are all living far beyond the years that the program was originally planned forl.

However, I hesitate to get on that subject again.  THE BOOK with all its facets of government, of industry, of the two intertwining, the Supreme Court getting involved is fascinating!

BARBARA, of course I remember IG Farben pencils.  Hadn't thought of those in years.  The history of the company is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IG_Farben

Fascism.  It didn't seem to worry Perkins when General Johnson became the director of the NRA; he was inspired by Benito Mussolini who merged political and business forces in Italy. (p.175)   Government would direct the operations of businesses.  But when troubles started, and they did almost immediately, she didn't hesitate to get involved, make decisions, creating advisory committees.

HAROLD discussed this in a prior post.  I am reminded when I read of decisions taken by the federal government of our problems today, aren't you?  Government is complicated.  Obama, I believe, has attempted new strategies and some old to get his programs and policies through Congress, a democratic Congress at that.  Some have worked, others failed.

Labor movements!  Have you read of any problems lately, heard of any?

In Chapter 22 history comes alive; workers grew confrontational, strikers were a problem, particularly in the auto companies.  

And then the dockworkers!  Because of containers and new shipping procedures, we have eliminated this problem haven't we?  And jobs, also!

Where are the problems in labor today?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 18, 2009, 12:38:59 PM
I believe the story about GE providing some piece of the warheads in Iraq has been proven to be inaccurate by the "fact-finders."

Most events as big as the ones we are reading about take more than one person to enact them. FP certainly must get credit for her ideas and her competency in political strategy, but FDR choose her - against strong opposition - to be SEc of Labor. I'm amazed at how much she WAS accepted and listened to by the groups to which she spoke and the influence that she had thruout the country.

She obviously had great patience and remarkable people skills - always keeping her eye on her goal. Having worked for Dept of Army, i spent a lot of time trying to calm people - particulary women - who had gotten their hackles up about being "disrespected" by men in authority. I never counseled them to accept real abuse, but i frequently counseled them to weigh whether their feelings had been hurt, rather than were disrespected,  and whether that was more important than the goal they were after. In one mtg i had w/ a Director/Colonel, he answered the phone twice, left his door open so people wandered in and out during our mtg - when i relayed the episode to another woman director, she explained "Jean, you didn't have to put up w/ that!" I said, "Toni, I perservered and i left his office w/ what i came to get."  I'm seeing some of that philosophy in FP............jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 18, 2009, 01:06:55 PM
Jean,
Quote
I believe the story about GE providing some piece of the warheads in Iraq has been proven to be inaccurate by the "fact-finders."


Jean, thank you for your post.  The last I had heard they were still being investigated.  The mere thought of it made me shiver.  As Frances Perkins showed us when Hoover was in office, she saw fudged unemployment figures come out to settle the uneasiness of the people who refused to let go of what money they had.  We are talking crooks and corruptness in government as far back as the early 1900's.  It doesn't surprise me what is going on today.  I loved how FDR responded to Frances Perkins after she held a press conference in what she issued a statement showing Hoover to be wrong.  The unemployment problem was, in fact worsening, not improving.  Satisfied that she had made the truth known, she was taken aback to find herself in the headlines the following day.  Both congratulatory and accusatory telegrams and telephone calls streamed in, including a call from Governor Roosevelt.  All of a sudden it occured to her  that perphaps she should have checked with him before speaking out against the President.  Prepared to apologize to Roosevelt for taking such bold action without his approval, she was surprised "to be greeted by a cheerful voice saying, "Bully for you!  That was a fine statement and I am glad you made it."  He told her it was just as well she hadn't checked with him in advance.  "If you had asked me, I would probably have told you not to do it, and I think it is  much more wholesome to have it right out in the open."

I say, BULLY for FDR!  and Bully for you Jean!!!   We need more women standing up and for women.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 18, 2009, 06:39:25 PM
JONATHAN asked "Why did she (FP) ever get involved in the International Labor Organization with its known connections to radical elements?"  

I never knew of this organization, so looking it up Google (which is now Bing) I learned this:

http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_ILO/lang--en/index.htm

"The ILO was founded in 1919, in the wake of a destructive war, to pursue a vision based on the premise that universal, lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon decent treatment of working people. The ILO became the first specialized agency of the UN in 1946. "

There is your answer, JONATHAN.  In FP's book she states that after asking FDR if she had his permission to prepare the way for the USA to join, he, after some thought, reminded her of the country's opposition to the League of Nations and advised her to not to do this without the full assent of the members of Congres responsible for foreign policy.

"they have a sense of their responsibility and they can't have sincere convictions unless they are given a chance to examine the situation at close range."

IMHO, although we get impatient with Congress and their slow progress to get legislation passed, mistakes are made with hasty decisions.

As someone said "the cattle must graze awhile."

BELLEMARIE, do you have a copy of FP's book?  It's a good read!  And like you I say BULLY FOR FDR!  (although that was his cousin who is known for the bully pulpit I think?)  Do you know that the two families, the Hyde Park Roosevelts and the Oyster Bay Roosevelts never were too friendly to each other?  Isn't that strange?  And Eleanor was the product of Teddy Roosevelt's brother!  I think I'm right!

We must talk a bit about FDR, Eleanor, their relations with Frances Perkins, the White House.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 18, 2009, 11:21:52 PM
Regarding Ella’s question, was FP effective with labor leaders?  I think our text was pretty clear that the principal labor leaders were pretty discussed with her appointment..  William Green had been under consideration for the post and in fact expected it himself; so too other labor leaders expected and wanted Green to have the appointment opening new leadership opportunities for themselves. Perhaps more bluntly they simply wanted him out of the way.
 
Be that as it may as it turned out Frances’s 12 year term turned out to be some of the best years for organized labor growth in membership and influence.  Also Frances prove herself very effective in supporting and promoting Labor interesting.  She also was effective as a conciliator in several major labor conflicts.

Regarding the second part of Ella’s question, how was she perceived by business interests?  The text may be less clear but it is certain her interest, were labor’s interest, not business’s interest.  Yet there are instances mentioned in the book when through her live-in arrangement with Mary Harriman Rumsey she met prominent Business leaders on social occasions, social events that led to conciliation agreements mutually advantageous to both business and labor. 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 18, 2009, 11:48:32 PM
Have you noticed through the reading of this book how different major Federal decisions were made from the way they are made today?  I am referring to the many meetings of President Roosevelt with his entire cabinet.  The President made the decision on his own, but only after the entire cabinet had discussed the issue and individual cabinet members had voiced their opinion.  I think this is the way major executive Department decisions had been made since the earliest days of the republic. Frances’s seems to have enjoyed particularly influence with FDR that enabled her opinions to prevail even on issues outside her Labor bailiwick

Today we hardly ever hear of Cabinets meetings.  Presidential decisions are much more the product of the Whitehouse staff with perhaps input of concern Cabinet Departments and of course pressure groups. Does the Cabinet ever meet these days except perhaps to have a group picture taken?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 19, 2009, 10:33:28 AM
Good points, HAROLD!

"Frances’s 12 year term turned out to be some of the best years for organized labor growth in membership and influence.  Also Frances prove herself very effective in supporting and promoting Labor interests.  She also was effective as a conciliator in several major labor conflicts."

And weren't those conflicts interesting to read?  And fascinating that she was effective in dealing with labor at this time in our history; probably the most violent?  Maybe not, but certainly they could have been.  

On pg.210, we read that the auto industry was entering a turbulent period.  Well, what will history say about this period in the auto industry?  I read in my morning paper that our state of Ohio is considering buying used cars when their fleet of 7000 cars need to be replaced.  Really!

And I also read that AT&T will stop delivering white page phone directories.

The times we knew are disappearing to be replaced with more efficient, environmentally wise products and policies.  A good thing.

But, HAROLD, you think FDR met with his Cabinet often?  

Curiously, I "binged" Obama and the cabinet and got this:

http://www.examiner.com/a-2147648~Obama__Cabinet_meet_for_mid_year_assessment.html?cid=rss-District_Of_Columbia_Headlines

Across the street?  Why?  They must bond?  


Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 19, 2009, 11:06:50 AM
Ella, sad to say my library has not been able to provide me with the book, but I am thrilled I do have the one I have, since it seems to be filled with as many facts necessary for this discussion.

In my book I found this interesting, The first attempt at labor and social legislation with which Perkins became involved was a mixed success.  When the New Dealers first came to Washington, she recalled in her Reminiscences, "we were improvising under a terrible pressure of poverty, distress, despair...Therefore, whatever was done, too quickly to think out all the implications."  People from all around the country, not all of them government officials, began to put their heads together to think of schemes to revive the country's economy.

The "too quickly to think out all the implications", reminds me of what is going on today in this administration.  I think they are acting too quickly to find an answer to help revive this economy, and are realizing now, they need to slow down.  They are finding themselves in a quandary, with one person saying one thing and another contradicting it on the same day, then you have Gibbs coming out trying to clean up the mess, only to make a bigger one. Thank goodness they took the Aug. break and the President is taking a vacation.  Maybe clearer, rested heads will return.

In the link Ella provided, it states a mid year meeting.  I think the President is relying largely on his Czars, who he hand picked, being close friends and colleagues of his.  Not so sure that is working out so good for him.  I for one think weekly or monthly cabinet meetings could be more productive.  Frances Perkins seems to have been involved with just about everything back then.  It still amazes me  how she "a woman" could infiltrate a man's world in politics and survive.  Although she did face a few battles, and threats.

Harold,... Does the Cabinet ever meet these days except perhaps to have a group picture taken?

I'm certain there was a picture op for this mid year meeting.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 19, 2009, 11:47:36 AM
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/perkinsfran/perkins.fdr.er.jpg)


ISN'T THIS A GOOD PICTURE OF FDR AND ELEANOR?

Both of them smiling, happy.  

We must bring both of them into the discussion!

They were so influential during that period, and in Frances Perkins' life.

What do you know about them?

Did you read anything you DID NOT know in the book?

What was FP's relationship with them?  Could you say that FDR was a friend or was he always the PRESIDENT, the boss?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 19, 2009, 12:04:29 PM
Bellamarie, Ella, et al A bit more about cabinet meetings.  Well from Ella's link it appears that they do occasionally meet.  From the verbiage used in the link describing the current meeting as the mid-year meeting it would seem that 2 per year are implied.

I am sure that throughout past U.S. history each President has use his cabinet in an advisory body more or less depending on his particular style of governing.  I can see why early Presidents would use the Cabinet more  since until recently the Whitehouse staff was much smaller than it is today.  Thomas Jefferson had a Secretary apparently his only office help.  Based on a current display at the Institute of Texan Cultures, Andrew Jackson furnished his own Kitchen and house cleaning  help.  Roosevelt of course had a much larger Staff than that, but certainly much less than the President today.  In the end regardless of who he chooses to ask advice, or the size or titles the large staff of whitehouse advisers, it  is the President who makes the decision.      
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 19, 2009, 02:39:20 PM
HaroldArnold,
Quote
In the end regardless of who he chooses to ask advice, or the size or titles the large staff of whitehouse advisers, it  is the President who makes the decision.
       
 
Or so it would appear to be, but ultimately and for certain, it is the President who will be held accountable.  Good or bad, the voters will remember at the polls.   ;)
 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 19, 2009, 02:42:33 PM
Ella, What a lovely picture of FDR and Eleanor.  Yes, before we end this dicussion in a week or so, we do need to bring Eleanor into the discussion.  The woman behind the man....in his case there were two, Eleanor and Frances.  Luckily for Frances, Eleanor liked her.  Imagine if she didn't.  lol
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: EvelynMC on August 19, 2009, 03:13:21 PM
Ella,

I must make a correction.  What I think I said in my post was that most of Arkansas is dry. --- The county I live in permits liquor sales in liquor stores during the week (it is a resort town).  And Little Rock is also "wet".  Many counties are still dry but not the whole state.

Evelyn

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JeanClark on August 19, 2009, 03:44:41 PM
I am amazed at the resourcefulness of this woman. She weathered the  prejudice of the powerful men around her and managed to get her programs fully or partly voted in place. She had to have been a great manipulator of people and had the ability to judge people . A remarkable woman in any age . The attitude of most of the men that she worked with was clearly evident in Harold Ickes statement that " A woman, a dog and a walnut tree, the more you beat them,the better they be".what a terrible work place to have to go to every day.Yet, she held up and did a magnificent job.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 19, 2009, 03:51:18 PM
My gosh, Evelyn,
So funny to read of states that still have dry counties in this modern age.  I used to live in a dry county in Austin, TX, Travis county, and where I live now in Ohio used to have liquor stores owned by the state.  They, too, were not open on Sunday.  I believe that most of the stores and restaurants in Cobb County, GA, did not sell alcohol on Sundays and covered up all beer and wine with sheets of plastic on Sundays.  This was back in the 80's.  I don't what their laws are now.  We could drive over the county line(half a block away) and go to restaurants and stores where liquor was sold all week.

Did I not read here that FP didn't seem to care if FDR took the credit for her ideas as long as they were enacted?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: EvelynMC on August 19, 2009, 04:05:35 PM
Ann

You must have read that in this book, because I read the same thing.

FP was truly an altruistic woman and really cared about helping the less fortunate and about working people.

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Kirstin Downey on August 19, 2009, 04:27:43 PM
Lots of you are asking about Eleanor and Frances, and it's a great question. I go into this a lot in the book. Frances Perkins and Eleanor Roosevelt had a complicated relationship almost from the beginning. Frances was a well-known and influential social reformer and civic activist from her early 20s and had a well-established reputation of her own from her successes at achieving life-safety and workplace regulation following the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire. Eleanor at that time was more of a wealthy charity volunteer married to an up-and-coming politician. Frances was an active suffragist; Eleanor was initially unsure whether women should be given the right to vote. Frances had a graduate degree; Eleanor had a finishing school education. In the early years, Frances was the prominent one. They were never good friends. But they became important political allies and came to love and respect each other. Eleanor was very effective at popularizing the things Frances and Franklin were doing. Frances was actually better friends with Franklin. Eleanor grew into a grand and beloved figure, partially because of her personal warmth but also because she was good at PR and was more societally acceptable as wife to the president. For Frances, that chafed, especially as her role became forgotten.
Kirstin Downey
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 19, 2009, 04:58:00 PM
Kirsten,
I do believe that FP's preference to a very private life is the reason many people didn't know that she was around. Not true of Eleanor.   FP certainly made a huge difference in most of our lives, in one way or another.  I do wish that her idea for national health had been passed, at least for the seniors back then.
 
My mother was a glad recipient of SS aid after my father died in 1947.  She received a check as the widow and two more for my brother and me. They were most helpful in keeping her boat afloat. My brother was accident prone and there was nothing mentioned about health insurance where she worked.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 19, 2009, 06:53:14 PM
In the end regardless of who he chooses to ask advice, or the size or titles of the large staff of Whitehouse advisers, it  is the President who makes the decision.

The above quoted from my earlier posts is perhaps not one of my better sentences. I should have at least added, "and it is the President who will get the credit or the blame.

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 19, 2009, 07:01:35 PM
HI KIRSTIN!  Are you going to tell us sometime soon if you are working on another book and who it is about?  We're all hoping!!

Thanks for the post about Eleanor and Frances.  I can understand that it must have been difficult for FP reading about Eleanor in the press constantly.  The wife, the wife!  Takes precedence!  We'll read a bit more about Eleanor in the last chapters of the book.

Have you noticed that Roosevelt keeps "giving the nod" to Frances?  Hahahaaa  But he humiliated her at times, also, when it was to his advantage.  Papa wants the credit, wants to read about himself in the papers also; had an ego that needed to be stroked, I think.

See new questions in the heading!

P.S.  Is that one of those furs around Eleanor's neck with a fox head on it that women used to wear?  An aunt of mine came to our house when I was very young with such a fur around her neck; I still remember my fear of it!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 19, 2009, 07:02:51 PM
HAROLD, we are both thinking alike here!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 19, 2009, 07:07:19 PM
ADOANNIE, in reference to your message #270 above:  It has been a long time since Travis County, TX (Austin) was dry.   It already allowed beer & wine bars and hard liquors were available in package stores for off site consumption in the late 1940's.  Of course mixed drink sales in bars and restaurants was not permitted in Texas until the mid 1960's.  Sixty years ago there were many dry counties in the state some that may have been close to Austin.   There are a few Counties that remain dry to this day.  
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 19, 2009, 09:25:25 PM
Well, heck, Harold.  We lived there in the mid 50's and I would understand if they had changed.  Tee hee!  I haven't seen it since 1956 and I understand it has grown way out of my imagination.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 19, 2009, 09:57:19 PM
I got the Downey book yesterday from the library - it's very popular there - and i will have it for 2 weeks. I'm so glad  to have gotten it because I am really enjoying it. I think it is very well written. I see on the cover leaf that KD has won awards for her business and economics reporting, and i think some of the award must be for how well she writes, not just for the technical aspects fo those issues. I find it so easy to read. I like her use of words and vocabularly and it draws me along to the next sentence, the next page, the next chapter. In other words, she makes the story quite interesting. It is not a chore to read about these events that could be very dry - and being a history major/teacher, i have read some very dry reports, particularly of presidential administrations.

I started at chapter 18, but i will go back and read the beginning. I think KD's next book should be about Mary Harriman - or, somebody should write about her. What an interesting character she is.

When you were talking about what the relationship was between Mary and Frances, i was thinking almost the exact thing that KD says about their relationship in this chapter. For women who grew up in the Victorian period, it is possible that  words and actions, some of which would perhaps raise some  eyebrows  today, were much more intimate between some women of the time. It was not unusual for sisters to accompany sisters on their honeymoons. Hugging, kissing, statements of love and adoration, sleeping in the same bed was not uncommon among women, but did not necessarily mean they were in a sexual relationship. The flip side of that coin was that there were perhaps more "Boston marriages" going on than society thought there was, because it was common for women (and men) to live together, to share rooms and housing. It was also very common for rich women to pay for vacations, or trips for women less able to afford them. Mary Bethune went on more than one trip to Europe on Eleanor Roosevelt's dime.

Of course, as some of you have already said - it really doesn't matter what the realtonship was, the important thing is that much of what Mary was able to provide allowed Frances to do her very important work - like a "wife." As someone has already said, wouldn't we all like to have a "wife." ( That was a very famous essay in one of the early MS magazines - "I Want a Wife." )  And having the support of another woman may have been easier than dealing w/ the competition that might have reared its head if FP had had a male companion/partner - even husband.

I didn't know that MH had started the Junior League, or that the League was started as a supporter of the Settlement House Movement.

I loved the statement on pg 167 that "Mrs Rumsey has the ideas of a leader but she dallies with beauty, art and luxury on her way. If she did not have that softening, feminine spot in her makeup, she, too, might be a maker of history."  That darn soft, feminine spot of dallying in beauty, art and luxury will get in the way every time..........lol

I see many similarities between Frances and Eleanor, altho i sense that FP may have had more confidence in herself than ER did. FP seems to have had more emotional support in her growing up years than poor ER who spent alot of time being told by a beautiful mother what an "old granny" she was and implying, if not out right saying, how unattractive ER was. And then, of course, ER's father was the rogue of the family, an alcoholic who on at least one occasion left ER outside a bar waiting for him and forgot she was there. Both of her parents died when she was young. Even tho she got good support and esteem from the head mistress of her school in Europe, ER always tho't of herself as too tall, too gawky, having too high-pitched a voice. Having a husband who had an affair w/ her secretary couldn't have been good for her self-esteem either. Amazingly, she seems to have come into her own in the White House and decided she was a worthy person. Her best years seem to have been after FDR died. Isn't it interesting that women have often done their best work when, or after, they no longer have children or husbands to take care of?

I'll catch up w/ the reading as quickly as i can......................jean


Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 20, 2009, 12:01:16 AM
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/perkinsfran/perkinscvr.jpg)

The Woman Behind the New Deal:
     The Life of Frances Perkins,
          FDR'S Secretary of Labor and His Moral Conscience

               by Kirstin  Downey


Links:
Frances Perkins Center (http://francesperkinscenter.org/)
Frances Perkins, Dept. of Labor (http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/history/perkins.htm)
Jane Addams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Addams)
[Frances Perkins Speech (http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=250364&ac=PHnws)

Discussion
August   l -  8    
August  9 - 15  
August 16 - 22    
August 23 - 31

Schedule
Chapters 1-9
Chapters 10-18
Chapters 19-27
Chapters 28-38


FOR CONSIDERATION


As fear rose of war, suspicions of immigrants appeared and the Immigration Service was transferred from FP’s Labor Dept. to the Justice Department.  Today it is under Homeland Security and there is still suspicion of immigrants.  What should be done to alleviate fear of illegal or legal immigrants?

FPerkins and FDRoosevelt had a very unusual relationship that was beneficial to both.  What accounted for it?  

“She did not want to admit that she thought FDR might have played a ’false role’ that day, that he had prior knowledge of the situation in Hawaii.”(pg.322)  Has this ever been proven to your knowledge?  What do you think?  

What do you think is meant by a “good war?”

It is unbelievable that a large-scale attack by an enemy of the USA could occur today.  Why?

Is war a male preserve?  

Roosevelt promoted conflict between people and agencies.  “A little rivaly is stimulating, you know.  It keeps everybody going to prove that he is a better fellow than the next man.  It keeps them honest too.” - (pg.360 The Roosevelt I Knew)  Is this a good way to govern?  Or to lead?

Truman came in the back door, so to speak.  How did it happen?

FP disclosed her anti-Catholism when she spoke against Jimmy Byrnes (pg.335).  Was there a lot of prejudice against Catholics in the US and why?

Who should have the power to decide if a president is ill and cannot perform the duties of the office?  Should FDR have been allowed to go to the Yalta Conference?  Why not send VP Truman in his place?

Could FDR’s “dream” of going to Saudi Arabia, after the war, might have been due to the fact that there was oil there?  (pg.340)  He must have known how precious that resource was to the world.

“Truman wold not have been Frances’ choice for president.” (341)  Was she snobbish?

“his (Truman) only Washington experience was as a one-term senator.”  We’ve had two presidents since then with this profile.  Could it be that no experience in Washington is an asset?

“Truman faced a daunting task.  FDR thought him so insignificant that he never bothered to share the details about the war or foreign affairs with him” (pg.346)  The presidency of the USA is one of great power and we should never allow this situation to happen again.  How can it be prevented?


Discussion Leaders:   Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) and Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jean, Thank you for this post.  I have not been able to get the book and like I said my book I have by another author did not cover that relationship in as intimate detail.  Just reading what you posted has me intrigued with Kirstin Downey's writing.  I moved out at eighteen and shared an apartment with first two of my best friends and later one of them and myself got our own apartment and slept in the same large bed.  Never in my wildest dreams would anyone have thought it odd or imagined we were anything more than just friends.  I never in all my time living with her had any feelings beyond friendship.  She and I were very much in search of a boyfriend/husband.  It was very common for females to share apartments to be able to leave home and become independent.

Quote
Isn't it interesting that women have often done their best work when, or after, they no longer have children or husbands to take care of?

Gee, as much as there is truth in this, it saddens me to think of it.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 20, 2009, 10:16:48 AM
JEAN, I AM SO HAPPY YOU HAVE THE BOOK! 

Those of us who have it agree Kirstin writes very well, keeps the subject so interesting; a subject that you said could be so very dry!

But Mary Harriman died fairly young, I believe so I am not sure if that is a good candidate for a book?  The whole Harriman family would be interesting to write about and possibly there is already a book about Averill, her brother?  FP was devasted when Mary died; she was having so many personal problems at the time.

Let's all think of a good candidate for Kirstin to write about.  Who do you nominate?

JEAN, I disagree with this statement - "Her best years seem to have been after FDR died."

FDR did Eleanor a great favor, although she may not have recognized it as such, when he sent her out into the country on his errands to get information, to be his eye and ears.  And possibly to get her out of the way for his affairs with other women? 

She became a confident speaker, became known among the mine workers , in Applachia among the poor, she got out of the home and into the world.  Other wise, this very intellectual woman, might have just been a wife and mother.  FDR created Eleanor in my way of thinking, forcing her to become independent.

It wasn't until his death, I think, that she started writing? 

But we are getting ahead of ourselves.  Let's get back to FDR!

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 20, 2009, 10:30:45 AM
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/perkinsfran/perkins.fdr.er.jpg)


REFUGEES AND REGULATIONS:  Chapter 20

In early 1933 , at a dinner party, Frances  learned from a reporter, who had just returned from Germany, of the Nazi party and of the danger Hitler posed.

In 1933, Roosevelt gave his newly appointed Ambassador to Germany the order to press for repayment of Germany's large debt to the US and, further, he said that while Hitler's discrimination against the Jews was "shameful" we should do nothing to interfere with internal affairs[/font]

WHEN DO WE INTERFERE IN A NATION'S INTERNAL AFFAIRS?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 20, 2009, 12:21:25 PM
Page 169....'Around this time (1934), two separate books hit the stands that cast doubt on Frances's public persona as a middle-aged mother of impeccably correct appearance and rectitude.'

Has anyone read Sinclair Lewis's ANN VICKERS, the book 'about the sexual and professional travails of a New York City social worker? Lewis, who once had shouted a marriage proposal from the street at Frances's upstairs window, acknowledged that the book was about Frances, but drew also on the characters of Shakespeare's Portia, Sarah Bernhardt, and Catherine the Great (and can't you just see FP wanting to be all three at one time or another?). SL and FP knew each other well, and from what we're told about the relationship, FP could have thrown him a tactful refusal with, you must be kidding me.

From such a glorious beginning Frances turned into a hardworking, but faceless bureaucrat. But her conference or committee room was never 'dry'. If she anticipated a difficult working sesion, she would set a bottle of Scotch on the table and declare, we're not leaving here until we finish this business.

I'm busily trying to absorb all the fascinating information in this week's chapters. What an exciting time it must have been in Washington during the Thirties. And at the center of it all was Frances Perkins, pulling at all those strings.

Page 230. 'Joblessness. Strikes. Immigration. Huge new public works programs. By 1934, Frances certainly had a full plate. But instead of conserving her strength  or allowing herself to become distracted by the whirl of issues she confronted daily, Frances now began to turn her attention to solving some of the larger societal problems, including unemployment and care for the aging, that had been of concern to her since her settlement house years.'

But the nagging thought intrudes. Where in all this is poor, wifeless Paul? Was it a loveless marriage? Did it leave Frances with an uneasy conscience?

FDR and FP worked well together:

Page 232-3. 'The two of them shared a predilection for creating committees or boards to get things done....Sometimes the committees they formed were little more than window dressing to gather support for a predetermined position....Frances would set the agenda for the outcome she wanted, and the president would lend his prestige to the effort by ceremoniously appointing the people Frances had picked....the committee on economic security was one of those, and in this one Frances used all the tricks she had learned over a lifetime.'

The life of a social worker who became the warm-hearted bureaucrat. Thanks Kirstin. One small detail. Frances's age change could have been made to correspond to  Mary H's age rather than to FDR's as you suggest, both of them two years younger than Frances. But it's all there in your book, left to the reader to decide.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 20, 2009, 01:17:16 PM
Jonathon, But the nagging thought intrudes. Where in all this is poor, wifeless Paul? Was it a loveless marriage? Did it leave Frances with an uneasy conscience?


In my book it states she stayed in constant contact with him and the hospital, visiting him and reassuring him she would always be there to over see his care.  I think there was love,  just not the intimate type as husband and wife.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 20, 2009, 04:20:38 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Bridges  Click the preceding link for the Wikipedia  Bio sketch of Harry Bridges.  This Labor leader’s role in West Coast dock labor disputes certainly involved Frances particularly during the 2nd term.  Frances’s failure to follow through with the deportation of this alleged Communist was the basis of the Impeachment proceeding began against her in the House of Representatives.  A House committee No Billed Frances after hearing evidence that Bridges was in fact a Communist enrolled with the Russian NKVD  as a Russian Intelligence Agent.  Apparently the house Committee did not believe the testimony of the witness so the charge against Frances was dismissed.

FDR’s stance during the time that his Secretary of Labor was on trial was typical of FDR when his Lieutants were under attack.  He remained neutral, Frances was on her own.  Today the defense against an impeachment charge against a Cabinet member would be immense, in the order of many 10’S of thousand dollars even if as in Frances case the charges were dismissed early in the process.  Even so it must surely cost Frances quite a few dollars.

Or book notes an interesting new post 1989 view on Bridges; after the fall of the Russian Communist Government, the public opening of MKVD records revealed that Bridges was indeed a NKVD agent prepared to bring about the overthrow of American Democracy. 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: maryboree on August 20, 2009, 05:31:07 PM
MABEL - about Eleanor:  isn't it true that in the years after FDRs death when she became a figure in her own right, there were those who accused her also of being a lesbian?  I always had such tender feelings for this great lady because yes, she was not a pretty woman, and yes she was tall and lanky when petite and cute was a lot more desirable at that time; her high-pitched voice would not have taken her to the stage as Tallulah's did.  But her sweetness and gentle manner, open mindness, and her ability to reach out to those less fortunate were her crowning glory (to say nothing about her extreme intelligence).  

I just finished reading "Franklin Roosevelt at Hyde Park," of less than 200 pages, and in it the author often included quotes from framily members.  One was from ER's book, "This Is My Story" in which she writes, about FDR....

"I do remember once, when the children were still very young, asking him solemnly how much religion he felt we should teach them, or whether it was our duty to leave them free minds until they decided for themselves as they grew older.  He looked at me with his amused and quizzical smile, and said that he thought they had better go to church and learn what he had learned.  It would do them no harm.  I replied, 'But are you sure that you believe in everything you learned?'  He answered, "I really never thought about it.  I think it is just as well not to think about things like that too much'."  

Very interesting question, wasn't it?  She really was very concerned about free minds.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 20, 2009, 05:44:04 PM
I have some chronology of Paul and Frances from my book,
(Frances Perkins Champion of the New Deal by Naomi Pasachoff)

Starting with their marriage:

1913 Paul Wilson and Frances Perkins were married with no family or friends in attendance.
1918 Paul became ill "and forced her to rethink her plans.  Her life would never be the same again. "My husband suffered from an up and down illness all the way through. It was always up and down. He was sometimes depressed, sometimes excited...From 1918 on there were never anything but very short periods of reasonably comfortable accommodating to life...Sometimes he was hospitalized, sometimes not. Sometimes he would go off on a little trip. Sometimes he would have an attendant that was called a secretary. There was great variety in the whole process."
1929 Perkins was less than anxious to become Industrial Commissioner. It might upset her husband, who continued to go to his office at the Equitable Life Assurance Company (although Perkins was uncertain whether he actually did any productive work there.)  
1932 - 1937 Her excitement at the prospect of Roosevelt's winning the Presidency was tempered, however, by the worsening of her husband's condition.  Wilson was admitted into a sanitarium in White Plains, New York, sometime in 1932 and remained until 1937. Sometimes he was in good enough shape to receive friends, play tennis and bridge, and come home for weekends; at other times he was in such bad shape that no one but Perkins could see him.
1933 As she recalled twenty years later, "The idea of moving to Washington horrified me...My husband was ill in a hospital.  I was near him in New York so that I could go to see him regularly and provide easily for his occasional expedition out of the hospital.... In true spiritual anguish as to how she would respond if Roosevelt were to offer her the Cabinet appointment, Perkins took  her problem to an Episcopal bishop, Charles K. Gilbert. He offered her encouragement to accept the challenge should the Presidet-elect make her the offer. Telling her that he truly believed that " it is God's own call," he assured her that God would help her through the personal difficulties that lay ahead. Feb 22 she she was summoned to his office at the Roosevelt house on East 65th Street in New York City. Even having received his assurances during the interview that he would support her initiatives as secretary of labor, however she did not accept the offer on the spot.  She told Roosevelt that before she could give him a definite answer she would have to check with her husband.  The following day she went out to the sanitarium in White Plains where she knew she would find Wilson "in no state of mind...to have an independent analysis of anything." Nonetheless, "The amenities between my husband and me were such that I would never dream of doing a thing he hadn't been informed of and consulted about in advance."  Perkins was relived to find Wilson "in a good controlled mood."  She reassured him that he could continue to consider their New York apartment his home and that she would continue to visit him regularly.
1935 As she prepared to leave the Dept of Labor for the signing ceremony at the White House, (The Social Security Act)Perkins was summoned to the telephone.  Her husband's nurse was calling from New York to alert her to the fact that Wilson had disappeared. Tempted to skip the ceremony to rush to New York to look for him she thought better of it. If she missed the signing ceremony, the press would want to know why. Immediately after the ceremony was over, Perkins went to the train station and boarded the next train for New York. There, assisted by others, she found Wilson and settled him back into the sanitarium.
1942 Wilson wrote a letter and apparently sent to a number of people looking for work. Ashe remained out of work.
1951 While Perkins was still with the Civil Service Commission, her husband, Paul Wilson, now 76 years old, came to live with her in Washington. Ashe was not the stimulating intellectual and social equal he had been when they had first met some 40 years earlier in New York. Ashe had few interests now and had become very dependent on her.
1952 Sixteen days after his 77Th birthday, Wilson died. Reviewing old financial records, confirmed her recollection that his last day of paid employment had been in early 1929.
_____________________________________________________

Just reading this tells us Frances not only loved her husband dearly, she cared for him and respected him,  so much so she did not accept Roosevelt's offer until she consulted with her husband. Imagine how it had to be for her when she got the call he was missing at one of the most important times of her career, the signing ceremony of the SSA. To avoid the press invading into her husband's personal and medical life she stayed for the signing when her first desire was to go directly to search for him.  

I personally think when ever you have a member of your family stricken with a life long illness of any kind, no matter how much you do for them, you always feel you haven't done enough.  

 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 20, 2009, 07:02:30 PM
Maryboree - yes, ER had sev'l close friends, and in at least one case, a business partner who were lesbians and therefore there has been much speculation about her sexual preference. The only reason it is important is for lesbians to feel some pride and comfort in the fact that she might have been gay. This is true for any person of history about which there might be speculation. In regards to her importance to American history or what she accomplished, it is not important.

 She gave many Americans enjoyment and information thru her magazine columns and radios shows and gave the world an insight into her husband, who "allowed" her to disagree w/ him, publically, on more than one occasion..........I think the last president who had the political courage to allow  his wife to disagree w/ him in public was Gerald Ford. Imagine the brouhaha that would have hit the media if Hillary had voiced a different opinion than Bill or Laura a different opinion than George. We know that Barbara had disagreements w/ George H.W. on a couple of issues, including abortion, but once she was first lady, she didn't talk about it. ER WROTE her opinions in magazine columns a couple times a month and spoke them on her own radio show.

After FDR died Harry Truman appointed her to the Human Relations Commission of the developing United Nations and she, w/ encouragement from Alice Paul, included "men AND women" in the Declarations of Human Rights and persuaded the Russian representative to go along w/ it.  She became an influential political strategist for both Adlai Stevenson and JFK, who went to her to ask for her enorsement, but she stayed loyal to STevenson in the primary. That was why i said she really came into her own after FDR died.

There's a good book about that time of ER's life: "CAsating Her Own Shadow: ER and the Shaping of Postwar Liberalism" by Allida Black, a professor of history at Geo Washington Univ.

The Severn book that i was reading about FP didn't mention what Paul's illness was, just occaisionally mentioned her "disabled husband." .....................jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: maryboree on August 20, 2009, 08:14:59 PM
Thanks, Mabel, for the follow-up on ER.  From what I read in these discussions, I think that FDR was very lucky to have these 2 important women in his life. Actually, he had 3 (I forgot his mother who was also a very strong individual.).........Mary   P.S.  I'll have to check out "Casting Her Own Shadow:"
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 20, 2009, 10:54:50 PM
Jean,  The Severn book that i was reading about FP didn't mention what Paul's illness was, just occaisionally mentioned her "disabled husband."

That's interesting, in my book it covered quite a bit about his illnes and had FP quoting as I  posted above about his illness.  Also it says, "Wilson died unexpectedly, after a long illness," according to the obituary notices. 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 20, 2009, 11:21:27 PM
I went for a google search and a yahoo search on Paul Caldwell Wilson and it always gave me articles of Frances Perkins and their marriage.  I wonder why I could not find anything single on just him?  Here is what I did find, which is very little. 

Frances Perkins married Paul Caldwell Wilson in 1913. She kept her birth name, defending her right to do so in court.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Perkins

Perkins retained her own surname when she married Paul Caldwell Wilson in 1913. Wilson, an economist in the New York Bureau of Municipal Research, was institutionalized many years for chronic mental illness. Throughout her long career, Perkins sheltered her husband and their daughter Susanna from the public eye.
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/nny/perkinsf/profile.html

On September 26, 1913 she married Paul Caldwell Wilson, an economist for the Bureau of Municipal Research in New York. During the 1920's Wilson suffered increasingly from mental illness. From 1930 until his death in 1952, he spent most of his time in institutions.

http://asteria.fivecolleges.edu/findaids/mountholyoke/mshm139_bioghist.html
_____________________________

My book seems to cover quite a bit more than normal, but then they are quotes that was taken from books Frances wrote herself.  I would say she did a good job keeping Paul out of the public eye.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 21, 2009, 09:13:29 AM
GOSH, WE HAVE OPINIONS ON A VARIETY OF SUBJECTS IN THE BOOK, but that's okay, we will all get on the same page when we get to the next chapters which are about WWII and Harry Truman.

A few comments:  JONATHAN, I've never read anything that Sinclair Lewis wrote.  Perhaps I should?  For some - many - reasons I read nonfiction for the most part these day.  Should we nominate one of Lewis' books for discussion?

From Lewis autobiography for the Nobel Foundation - "Main Street, published late in 1920, was my first novel to rouse the embattled peasantry and, as I have already hinted, it had really a success of scandal. One of the most treasured American myths had been that all American villages were peculiarly noble and happy, and here an American attacked that myth. Scandalous. Some hundreds of thousands read the book with the same masochistic pleasure that one has in sucking an aching tooth.

Another comment:  "The fact is that my foreign travelling has been a quite uninspired recreation, a flight from reality. My real travelling has been sitting in Pullman smoking cars, in a Minnesota village, on a Vermont farm, in a hotel in Kansas City or Savannah, listening to the normal daily drone of what are to me the most fascinating and exotic people in the world - the Average Citizens of the United States, with their friendliness to strangers and their rough teasing, their passion for material advancement and their shy idealism, their interest in all the world and their boastful provincialism - the intricate complexities which an American novelist is privileged to portray."

-----------------------------------------------------
HAROLD, wasn't that an interesting chapter (27) on impeachment!  As early as 1938 "the House of Representatiaves had created a Special Committee to investigate Un-American Activities.........it generated publicity by charging that Communism posed more danger to the United States than Nazism."

Way before the McCarthy era!  The rumors, the innuendos.  And FDR, a friend (?), pretending to know nothing about FP's possible impeachment!  She turned to religious ideals and inner strength to combat the charges.  One comment is amusing, well,  sad, too.  "You see in some of the members of Congress the makings of one of the most prejudiced, ignorant, irresponsible and inattentive juries imaginable."

And you are so right.  Today, her defense would cost an unimaginable amount of money.

THANK YOU, BELLEMARIE!  That was very interesting about FP's husband, but he was not a newsworthy person and, particularly, with his later life consumed by his illness he was not in the spotlight at all.  And FP did care for him until he died; what a sad marriage for both of them.  The chronology in your book is just about the same as in Kirstin's book.

MARY!  So nice to see you here!  Thanks for the comments on FDR at Hyde Park.  I think I mentioned that I visited there in the spring with a group and did not have enough time to adequately read and explore all that I wanted to.  Actually Hyde Park is the town that his estate, named Springwood, is in, but we all call his home by the town, don't we?  Perhaps that is because he did.

JEAN, that sounds like a good book.  Eleanor had great success in her life after FDR's death, what a lady!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 21, 2009, 09:28:05 AM
Two movies pertaining to events in Kirstin's book.  There are, no doubt, more, but these two I have seen and admired:

Elmer Gantry, based on Sinclair Lewis' book

On the Waterfront - about dockworkers and the corruption in the unions

Have any of you seen any others?

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Kirstin Downey on August 21, 2009, 10:06:44 AM
Hello all...Many questions about Paul Wilson, I see. Susanna, Frances's daughter, minimized her father's illness to earlier biographers, and even denied to some that he had been ill. She also had exclusive executorial control of all her mother's papers, and had the ability to block a book from being published if she didn't like the way it was developing. She in effect banned several potential biographers from writing about her mother. But after her death in about 2005 I was given access to private family papers, which included medical records concerning Paul and Susanna. They both had bipolar disorder, which made them very difficult to control. Susanna was promiscuous at times, including with people who were wildly inappropriate either by class, age or background, including people that she was able to impress with her connections to the White House. Sad and embarrassing for Frances. Paul drank heavily, went on angry rampages that required a strong male attendant, had at least one affair and gambled away his inheritance. I believe that it is probably unfair to hold Paul's family entirely responsible for this affliction, however, which is why I included the mention of Frances's side as well. John Adam's description of James Otis certainly suggests he had a manic disorder of some kind, though it may not have been organic but caused by a blow to the head.
Kirstin Downey
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Kirstin Downey on August 21, 2009, 10:14:48 AM
And another movie suggestion, if you can find it: There was a movie version of Ann Vickers, which I was able to find at a film library. But the book is really interesting to read. Frances Perkins's life follows the character of Ann Vickers, almost seems like a mirror, but the book also suggests some other racy stuff, including an affair with a married judge and an abortion. Fascinating to wonder how closely Sinclair Lewis depicted what he knew of Frances Perkins. He tended to be spiteful to women who became successful in their careers, and certainly his book came out just as Frances Perkins reached the apex of her life as newly-appointed secretary of labor.

Interestingly, also, Ann Vickers is portrayed as kissing women, "lingeringly" but is not presented as a lesbian.

Kirstin
 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 21, 2009, 10:21:57 AM
HELLO KIRSTIN.  Thanks!

How very sad for Frances Perkins!  Both husband and daughter.  Is it any wonder she submerged her life into her work and politics!  

But you indicate in the book, Kirstin, that FP spoiled the child, wanting everything for Susanna, giving everything to see that she was accepted in the best society had to offer.  A debutante ball, wasn't it?  Only psychiatrists would be able to tell us if this had anything to do with Susanna's behavior.

I just came in to post that I found your book, KIRSTIN, and bought it at the Hyde Park library.  I think that's where I saw it for the first time, but memory is not dependable.  Is it there?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 21, 2009, 10:33:57 AM
After spending 10 years with Frances Perkins, KIRSTIN, do you feel as if she is a member of the family?  Or maybe you know her better than a member of the family?  Hahahahahaa

Would you have liked her as a sister, an aunt, a grandmother?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Kirstin Downey on August 21, 2009, 10:42:41 AM
Yes, it is on sale at the FDR Library at Hyde Park. I spoke there in June. They told me they have sold many copies. The book is also for sale at Amazon.com, Barnes and Noble, Borders, and at independent bookstores. It is also for sale via the afl-cio website. The publisher didn't do much to promote it, which is sadly common in the publishing business today, so sales are spreading mostly by word of mouth and following my speaking engagements. Anything you all can do to mention it to bookstores in your area would be much appreciated!!

Many libraries are stocking the book now but people have reported to me that it has been popular enough that there are often waiting lists for it.

Another happy bit of news: The book has been selected by the Library of Congress for the National Festival of Books, (it was one of only about a dozen history and biography books chosen for 2009) and so it will be featured on C-Span again in September, which should help with sales, too! By the way, if any of you live in the Washington DC area, I will be speaking about it on September 25 and 26, on the Capitol mall, and it would be great if you showed up so I could say hello.
 Kirstin
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Kirstin Downey on August 21, 2009, 10:47:50 AM
Yes, actually I LOVE Frances Perkins after spending so much time learning all about her!!  A friend of mine painted a picture of her and I have it hanging in the upstairs hallway, as though she were a favorite grandmother. I also love her grandson, Tomlin Coggeshall, who is a wonderful man. He is working on a project to convert the family homestead into a think tank and retreat center. The executive director of the project is Barbara Burt, and think she will be joining us on this book chat at some point this month.

The Economist magazine reviewed my book last month and it was a good review but they noted that it seemed that I had become too much of a fan of Frances Perkins. I laughed when I read that. She was such a great person that ANYONE would be a fan after studying her life! I learned so much that I think it has changed me forever.

Kirstin
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 21, 2009, 11:28:14 AM
Kristin,  Thank you so much for your posts.  Nothing is more rewarding to a reader as to have the insight and words spoken to them directly from the author. 

I wondered why when I searched dilegently for anything on Paul Wilson it only gave me links to Frances Perkins and only one liners, such as I posted above about their marriage and a hint of his mental illness.  Having a daughter with bi polar disorder, I recognized the symptoms immediately.  It is very difficult for someone near and dear to you to be afflicted with this genetic disorder.  I was not surprised to hear the daughter had it also, since it is passed down generations through the genetic makeup.  I too tended to spoil my daughter shamelessly, possibly because of the disorder.  I saw the struggles she had even in her childhood before we were aware of the diagnosis, and I over compensated to say the least.  Today she is 37 yrs old, has a husband who loves her unconditionally, as I feel Frances did Paul and Susanne, and I still have a tendency to overlook and spoil her when we are together.  She lives in Florida, I in Ohio so distance is possibly better for her and me. I've had to do extensive research on this disorder and learn about it quickly when I got a phone call from her husband she was admitted to a psychiatric hosptial in a nearby town they lived in Georgia at the time.  Packing my bags, jumping on a plane and rushing to a hosptial with terror in me from the unkown is something I will never forget.  My faith is all I had at that time and it sustained me to ask the right questions, to get her released and to bring her back home with me to get the care she needed.  It was an uphill battle and reading the part where her husband came up missing was chillling to me because I  lived it.  God gives us an inner strength to deal with loved ones in times like this.

Frances sounds like someone I would have loved to have as a friend or grandmother.  She would have truly taught self confidence, self worth, self esteem and preserverance to her female family and friends, not only by words but surely by example.  I read her parents did not give her much positive self image when growing up.  Telling her to wear that silly hat to hide her features.  But she turned that into a fashion statement. As FDR would say, "Bully for her!"

The impeachment chapter I found was the most interesting read of my book.  How she was attacked and how she was able to withstand it was amazing.  I notice I have used that word quite a bit in this discussion.  Seems sometimes the only place you can find your peace is with your faith.  Without it, could you imagine how lost she would have been at that point in her life?

Kirstin, rest assured I am spreading the word of your book to everyone I talk to these days.  My library has it on back order still.  I will not give up even if I have to purchase it.  I would love to come hear you at Washingtom mall in Sept.  I'm just not sure my finances will allow it.  Thank you for a wonderful book, and your participation in our discussion.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 21, 2009, 12:01:06 PM
I note that Frances’s daughter Susanna Wilson has left very little Web imprint.  Google found no real Web sites under her Susanna Wilson name.  In fact the only real site was the following Time Magazine report on her marriage to Hare, http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,788216,00.html

There were of course many contacts under her married Susanna Wilson Hare that followed her life through her divorce from Hare.  Ironically the divorce seems related to Hare’s attraction to french refugee artists whose visa for entry to the U.S. was approved by Frances.  The last real information on Susanna is Chapter 30 that will come next week which describes the situation ending in the divorce. .

I suppose that Susanna is no longer with us today since she would now be in her 90’s, though I wonder about her later life.  The last we here in the book relates to the time of Frances’s death in the 1960’s.  
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 21, 2009, 12:18:53 PM
Here's a Wikipedia listing for Mary Harriman Rumsey.  According to this, she died in 1934.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Harriman_Rumsey
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 21, 2009, 02:55:16 PM
Kirstin - congrats on being selected to be on CSPAN, that should be a great promotion for the book.

I have read Main STreet and was surprised at what a feminist lean Lewis had at that period of history. Having grown up in a small town, i think he got that right also.

Ella - I have seen both Elmer Gantry and On the Waterfront. Great movies. EG is on tv quite often, but not On the W, i wonder why that's so?

I wasn't aware that the PWA built the Lincoln Tunnel. We got some very good projects out of that program.

From pg 189 - "A new Nazi-controlled labor union............became a gigantic propaganda machine churing out reeducation materials."  and "No major German industrialist opposed Hitler's attack on organized labor" DAH! ,,,,,,,,,,,Actually, this book is a good reminder that institutions will work very hard to protect their own interests, including constant propaganda to reinforce their side of the story. As people living in a democracy, we must always be aware of that and learn to read information from various sources. The internet has facilitated many negative - IMO - activities, but it also gives us easy access to many sides of many issues.

If i was still teaching colllege history, i would use this book for the students to understand the period, but also to understand how institutions/ policy/legislation/politics work - or not - in our country...................A great example is the way Downey lays out the immigration issue.....................yes, a superficial response to the opening up the country to suffering Jews is to say "of course, we should have taken in as many as needed to be rescued." The reality was that we had 25% unemployment. As a president of the total society,  how do you balance those two events? Even some American Jews were giving him advice that they didn't want an influx that may initiate more anti-Semetism. ................. what a quandry................issues seldom are as simple as the little bit of information that we get would make them seem.........................that's why these "polls" that news networks do these days, really tick me off........................."should we ................(some policy issue)" or "did so-and-so do the right thing on (this) issue?" ..................................the public seldom has enough info to make a deliberative decision about the question. So, they are insignificant. I'd like news stations to give us news, not poll their audience about the news.............................jean  
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 21, 2009, 10:06:33 PM
I don't mean to filibuster, but no one has posted since i did at 1 pm and i have been reading along.

I think it was Ella who mentioned that ER had been obstructed, in having Jews immigrate, by someone in the State Dept - info from something we had read before. Yes, Ella, his name was Breckinridge Long and he was actually the person responsible for helping the immigration! There had been an agreement that 567 persons, whose names had been supplied could be admitted and all the paperwork had been done for their visas. After 3 months, only 15 visas had been issued. Long was deliberately obstructing the process...........but that's in 1940, so i'll come back to that when we get there.

"The more things change the more they stay the same." I have forgotten how to state that in the French, where  it came from, i think, but i keep thinking it. There's a statement that some of the labor leaders "mused aloud about what they suspected to be a sexual relationshp btwn Frances and Roosevelt; her close friendship w/ the president made her character somewhat questionable to them." ..............Recently, i mentioned to my sister that i was reading a bio of Condalezza Rice and she told me that her "group" tho't Condi and Geo W. were having a "thing." I told her that from what i was reading about Condi's close friendship w/ the whole family, including Laura, i didn't think that was true.......... but i think that is almost always the speculation about women and men who work closely together and get along well while doing so.

Downey's 2 chapters on the labor movement at the time are 2 of the best i have ever read about that subject, concise and interesting.

On page 209 - "....376,000 textile workers around the country went out on strike. ...a dramatic display of discontent over the stretch-out system, in which workers were asked to work longer and harder for less money." ...............isn't that what's been happening again for the last 2 or 3 decades and, ironically, the labor movement has lost large numbers of members and esteem over that same period?

pg 210 - FP "told Walter Chrysler and Alfred Sloan, of GM, that they should blame themselves ( for a `drop in auto sales and once happy workers growing restive and confrontational), since they had compounded their own problems by their practice of hiring only the young. 'The companies had a positive rule against hiring anybody after 40 and of keeping anybody in their employment after 45.'" Philip Foner in his volume about Women and the American Labor Movement, writes that "employers set a maximum age for women applicants considerably lower than the maximum set for men. Helen Baker's survery of the defense industries in the fall of 1941 revealed that 30 - 35 was the average maximum age for women applicants. Despite labor supply problems ( as the war geared up) many employers refused to consider women over 40 for jobs." Even in a 1944 census , the Women's Bureau found that over 3/4 of the women in the labor force were under 45...and that of the 61/2 million who had entered the labor force after Pearl Harbor, over 80% were under 45. Thank goodness those days are over with!

You may notice that i throw in a lot of references to women in history, that's been my avocation for 40 years and i know that many of us over 50 got NO women's history in our public education - except that Betsy Ross made the first American flag, which probably isn't true anyway.  :'(   So, i hope you don't mind, my "teacher-persona" is still active.
I've got a big piece of women's history to write about the GM strike of '36 & '37 that i think you will find interesting, but i'll do that another time and let someone else "talk."........................jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 21, 2009, 10:46:11 PM
Oh, JEAN, keep talking, I want to go back over your post; such interesting things you are talking about and from our history teacher!  Couldn't we all have a great f2f discussion about the book.  We are so limited here, but having a great time regardless!

I'm off to bed right now as I must get up early in the morning; will be gone out of town most of the day.

BUT I HAD TO SAY CONGRATULATIONS TO KIRSTIN.  WHAT AN ANNOUNCEMENT!  YOUR BOOK HAS BEEN SELECTED BY THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS FOR THE BOOK FESTIVAL!

TOASTS ALL AROUND!

There is something to tell you, Kirstin, about the Festival and our part in it which would take too long at the moment.  Later.

And we may have - just may have - a couple of our members of SeniorLearn attend your presentation at the Festival!  Later.

FOR NOW, I AM SO HAPPY FOR YOU!  YOU WROTE A GREAT BOOK.  AND WE CHOSE WELL, DIDN'T WE ALL!     Later.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 22, 2009, 12:24:39 PM
That is really interesting.

" but I think that is almost always the speculation about women and men who work closely together and get along well while doing so".

I remember that well from years of working as a woman in a man's field. Fortunately, my husband wasn't that stupid.

I remember once, a male colleagues and I went to a professional meeting held at night. Going home about 10 the car broke down. The man who was driving went to a nearby house to call for assistance. His face turning red, he said "maybe you'd better stay in the car -- We're each married, and I don't want people getting the wrong impression." I remember how shocked I felt -- naive me, it had never occured to me.

Between that and being lesbians, professional women can't win!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 22, 2009, 05:43:05 PM
Wow, we are really getting more history here with a history teacher and another lady who didn't connect the dots concerning her travel with a male cohert.  This is more than I bargained for and I am eating it all up.  I was living a much different life during the '30's and '40's as child just growing up, having a great time and unaware of all these problems.  Well, except one.  To get a decent job during the end of 1930, my grandfather was forced to join the union at Link Belt Co.  And I do remember him saying over and over that the unions were needed back in the 1890's (Pullman & ?????) but they were  not needed as we progressed in this country.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 23, 2009, 12:02:03 AM
Something should be said about the so called Court Packing scheme developed by Attorney General Homer Cummings and endorsed by FDR in the mid 1930.

New Deal Executive policy and Legislative measures were never popular with the conservative Supreme Court.  The NRA and other Roosevelt programs were declared unconstitutional by the court whose justices for the most part were appointed by Republican Presidents going back to Taft.   This was most frustrating for Frances and the Roosevelt Administration to see measures that they deemed essential to economic recovery terminated as unconstitutional.    A plan was developed by Roosevelt’s Attorney General Homer Cummings to pack the Supreme Court with up to 6 additional Justices appointed by FDR if seated justices refused to retire at age 70.  This plan seem a blatant attempt by the executive branch in collusion with the Congress against the Judiciary the third supposedly co-equal branch of the Federal Government.   Not only Republicans, but many democrats, Frances included, were shocked at the proposal.  Yet FDR seemed determined to go ahead with the plan.

Frances apparently realized there were easier less radical ways of changing the complexion of the Court.   This came to her at a social function at which Frances had a conversation with Justice James McReynolds..  The Justice asked Frances during the dinner if the President was considering breaking up the Supreme Court.  Frances replied, “I sure don’t know how he would do it.  Perhaps you could give me a hint.”  The Justice laughed saying “O well there are some who would be glad to retire.” 

Though FDR continued to advocate the radical plan to pack the court the plan died after a series of changes made it unnecessary.  Congress in March 1963 passed legislation guaranteeing the full pay retirement of Supreme Court justices.  More important several of the existing justices changed their stance.  In deciding the constitutionality of a state law regulating works hours with minimum wage provisions by a 5-4 decision.  Chief Justice Evans Hughes and Justice Owen Roberts had switched their vote.  This was a landmark change that was followed by the retirement of several Justices that were replaced with FDR appointees.  The Complexion of the court was quickly changed to a FDR friendly court that lingered in power long after FDR had left the Presidency.  The need for the planned radical change that would have changed forever the position of the court as a co-equal third branch of the government became unnecessary and abandoned if not entirely forgotten.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa081400a.htm  Click the preceding link for a very brief historical comment on the Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: serenesheila on August 23, 2009, 12:04:14 AM
Well, I am way behind in my reading.  I have had a busy couple of weeks.  So, I will read the final chapters this week.  When the discussion ends, I will go back and read the chapters I haven't read.

Today, I read all of the comments everyone has been making.  Very interesting.  A few years ago I read a book about ER and the people in her life.  As I remember, she was suspected of having sexual relationships with both men, and women.  So, I guess she was bisexual.  I cannot remember the name of that book.  Perhaps the title will come to me.

Sheila
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 23, 2009, 07:57:51 AM
Such good stories and commenets.  THANK YOU, JEAN, JOANK, ANN AND SHEILA.

Women's History, Jean!  Is it still being taught in college?  It was for many years beginning with the sixties, I think.  Didn't they call it Women's Studies rather than history?  Your interest in the subject is great, tell us more.

Weren't women laid off or fired after WWII  due to the veterans needing the jobs upon their return home?

"Chief Justice Evans Hughes and Justice Owen Roberts had switched their vote.  This was a landmark change that was followed by the retirement of several Justices that were replaced with FDR appointees.  The Complexion of the court was quickly changed to a FDR friendly court that lingered in power long after FDR had left the Presidency.  The need for the planned radical change that would have changed forever the position of the court as a co-equal third branch of the government became unnecessary and abandoned if not entirely forgotten."  - Harold

Good summary of that whole episode.  Thanks!

We shall begin the final chapters of the book today!  War clouds form!  "Many Americans were still embittered by the pointless carnage of WWI and wanted the United States to steer clear of yet another European morass."

BEGINNING WITH CHAPTER 28 CONTINUING TO THE END OF THE BOOK.  LET'S DISCUSS THEM.  I'LL PUT SOME IDEAS FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION IN THE HEADING LATER TODAY.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 23, 2009, 03:49:44 PM
There are some questions in the heading and the first one is about immigration. There were big problems during the 30's and 40's.  Are there problems with it today?  What are they?  What can be done?  Does your attitude change depending on the section of the country you live in?

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 23, 2009, 05:58:27 PM
Page 302. 'Yesterday afternoon I spent long hours at the Lincoln Memorial hoping that would give me guidance.' Caroline O'Day.

Isn't that touching. Later, 'Caroline voted against removing the arms embargo, infuriating Roosevelt. The stress and sadness undermined her health. O'Day fell ill and left Washington...(and) never returned to her congressional  position in Washington....' p302

Presidents have been known to seek strength at the Memorial in the small hours of the morning. Did Frances ever find her way there? Frances was tough. A real survivor. Congressional battles. Smear campaigns. Lobbying pressures. Losing the Immigration Bureau. If the Bridges affair was a mist, the refugee problem was a fog. And for me the ILO thing is very murky. She found a wartime home for it in Canada. How very interesting. I'm called away to dinner.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 23, 2009, 07:57:56 PM
Our internet service has been unavailable for 36 hours. I just got back on, i'll be back soon to comment..................jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 23, 2009, 09:05:56 PM
FDR was great at escaping direct controversy, wasn't he? He left sev'l people hanging out to dry, on their own. I've tried to decide thru the years if i would have liked him. I guess if all i was interested in was being a friend, playing cards and having a martini, he would have been great. But to do policy w/ him appears to have been dangerous at times. He did support FP at some Cabinet mtgs against the other SEcretaries, but when she really needed him, he stepped back from her, apparently to see which way the "wind" would finally blow. I know that he was deceptive about preparing for the war and about sending weaponry to England. That is always presented as having ended up being a good thing. Other stories of people leaving his office thinking he was on their side of an issue and then they discovered he was advocating for the other side, are numerous. He obviously was a man who did not like to be in the center of conflict or disagreement.  FP, on the other hand, seems to have done very well in conflict situations.........i am amazed at how often she makes quick decisions and gets something settled w/ perserverance.

I looked in the index of No Ordinary Time, the Goodwin book of the Roosevelts druing the war years, FP is mentioned 18 times. Usually she is being quoted talking about someone else, particularly from "The Roosevelt I Knew."

I know the General Motors strike of '36 and '37 is a few chapters back, but i tho't you might like to hear the importance of women in that strike and many others that followed. Of course, they were not women who were members of the UAW - women were not welcome in most national unions of that time. They were "The Women's Auxiilary." It started w/ about 50 women relatives of the men who decided they would "sit-down" in the Fisher Plants on DEc 30 and not leave. The women fed the strikers daily, set up a first-aid station, where they nursed casualties, distributed literture, ran around-the-clock picket lines and took charge of publicitiy. They ran a day car center for the children of striking and auxiliary mothers, established a welfare committe and a speaker's bureau and visited wives who opposed the sit-down to try to convince them to support their husbands.

These were no small tasks. The reposnsibility for feeding sev'l thousand workers, both inside and outside the plants was enormous. One day's food supply included 500 pounds of meat, 100 lbs of potatoes - i wonder if they peeled them? - 300 loaves of bread, 100lbs of coffee, 200 lbs of sugar, 30 gals of milk and 4 cases of evaporated milk. 200 people, mostly women, prepared this food. (from Foner's book)

On Jan 21 the NYT's announced the formation of a new automotive srike org, the Women's Emregency Brigade, composed of women who had husbands, sons or brothers in the GM strike. It's purpose was to be on hand in any emergency and to stand by their men, to form a picket line around the men and "if the police want to fire, then they'll just have to fire into us." At one point the women lured the police to Chevrolet plant 9 at Flint, so that male strikers could seize Plant 4, the key to the motor assembly division. When Plant 9 was tear-gassed, the Brigade broke windows in the plant so that the strikers could breathe.

For 44 days the GM workers and "their womenfolk" fought the giant corporation, on Feb 11 the governor announced that peace terms had been arranged. The agreement recognized the UAW as the bargaining agency, agreed not to interfere w/ the right of its employees to belong to that union and that the strikers would get theri jobs back.
The women's auxiliary had a song which i love - to the tune of Marching thru GA:
The women got together and they formed a mighty throng
Every worker's wife and mom and sister will belong
They will fight beside the men to help the cause along
Shouting the Union forever
I wonder how many parodies there have been created to the tune of M Thru GA?
Ironically, women were still not very welcome in the AFL and only began to have true membership in a national union when the CIO came into exitence.

PBS has a great documentary on the GM strike, that was were i first heard about it.

The union movement has been enormously important in getting some leverage for workers, thanks in large part to FP, but as w/ any movement/ idea that gets lost in it's power, some union leaders became extreme and therefore lost the popularity and favor of the majority of the people. Unfortunately, few workers today know the history of labor and don't realize how much sweat, tears and lives went into getting them the 40 hr week and vacation and sick days. ............

I am astonished at FP's stamina. Just doing the job she had was stressful enough, but to have survived the illnesses of her husband and dgt, the death of her dear Mary and the threats of being impeached bringing her disappointment in FDR's lack of support, my GOSH! The woman was made of steel!.................. jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 23, 2009, 09:37:36 PM
To answer some of Ella's questions - yes, women's studies are still being taught in colleges and in some high schools today. Women's history is generally a part of what is called "women's studies" which also includes such topics as women in literature and /or movies; the psychology of women; women in sociology; women  in science/math, etc. There are Women Studies majors at some universityies.

Yes, women were told to "go home" after the war. That has been true after every war when women have stepped up and often into the shoes of the men who had gone off to fight, and sometimes as soldiers themselves, particularly as spies or in resistence movements. Every American war, perhaps every war any where, has had such women.  After WWII it was a cause taken up by the whole society to get women back into the home. Think of the movies that came out in the 30's and the 40's, who were the great women characters? Rosalind Russell, Katherine Hepburn, etc as strong, decisive women, going toe-to-toe w/ men, often in non-traditional roles. AFter the war? Doris Day and Pillow Talk, Marilyn Monroe as the sex bomb, women characters often ditsy and incompetent in any role. Even the stories in magazines changed. Before the war, Ladies Home Journal, etc. wrote about Amelia Earhart and women engineers and professors. Eleanor Roosevelt told the world what she was doing thruout the world, important activities. After the war they wrote about wives of famous men and society figures who were going to clubs and social events. And told women how to fold sheets and get stains out of their laundry and how to cook pot roasts. I have a video of the 50's that i used in my history classes that was used in "home ec" classes, remember those? Girls are told by the women's voice-over that they should manage their time so that they had time to shower, dress and put on make-up before their husband got home from work (after they had cooked the pot roast and prepared his drink, of course) ???
And the children and the wife should only give Dad pleasant conversation, there was to be no emotional outbursts to Dad during dinner. He needed to unwind from his hectic day! ..................yes every piece of society was teaching women how to go back into her domestic role. ...................................some of them wanted to do that, but some of them didn't..................jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 23, 2009, 10:32:40 PM
Ella,
In our country, maybe those of us in the middle think that we won't have many immigrants living around us so we don't think it will be a problem for us.  We seem to forget that our ancestors were the immigrants long ago. And in my case, the Irish and the Germans weren't accepted on the East coast, so they were sent to Ohio, down in Hamilton County, part of Cincinnati.  That was the designated area for those two groups of immigrants.  Its why I had a German grandfather married to my Irish grandmother.  Its why my mother whose Irish folks ended up in Lafayette, IN. married one of those German/Irish boys.  

But, now its my understanding from having read "The Middle of Everywhere" plus looking at our city in Ohio, that the Immigration and Naturalization Department directs different groups to different parts of the country and it would behoove us to help them assimilate.

In her book, Mary Pipher, shows the fears that these people have of the most basic things we accept as nothing.  In her town of Lincoln, NE,  they welcomed Bosnians, Sudanese, Somalis, Napalese, Sierra Leones,  Ethiopians and Russians.  They formed committees to help these people learn English, how to rent an apartment, where to shop for the groceries and other sundries, plus how to catch a bus and where to look for jobs and what schools their children would attend school and where they can go to the doctor.

After reading about the shenanigans that were put forth to prevent the German Jews from immigrating to the US,  I began to see how politics can bog things down.  Good for FP, in getting a great number of the people into the states, by treating over 200,000 of them as tourists.  I understand that we had a high number of unemployed here but why didn't we see the handwriting on the wall as to the treatment of the Jews in Europe.  I was surprised at the fear of letting them immigrate by the German Jewish citizens already living here.   And, where what were the European countries doing about the problem??
 
  
 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 24, 2009, 09:30:27 AM
Thanks, ANN, for your post. You may be be interested in this clickable:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_laws_concerning_immigration_and_naturalization_in_the_United_States

There is a lot there I did not know about immigration

"Isn't that touching. Later, 'Caroline voted against removing the arms embargo, infuriating Roosevelt. - JONATHAN

You don't want to do that!  Infuriate a president, it can be dangerous to your health.

JEAN said - "FDR was great at escaping direct controversy, wasn't he?"  But he could make it tough for you!  

Somehow, maybe with humor, Frances was able to withstand all the pressures and the stress of the people she had to deal with!  

FP and FDR had a very unusual relationship that was beneficial to both.  What accounted for it?    

WHAT DO YOU THINK?




Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 24, 2009, 10:46:52 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Love_Goodwin_O%27Day  The preceding link will lead to the Wikipedia bio sketch of Carolyn O’Day.  The truth is I had never heard of her until I read this book, but that does not mean I had not heard of the strong isolationist movement in the U.S. during the pre-war period.  In 1938-40 I was in Junior High School (Middle School today) following each of the major events leading the world to war.  My class was always anti Hitler strongly pro English-French though that did not mean we were immediately interventionist.  Looking back I think FDR  (and Frances also) early on fully realized the basic evil of the Nazi regime and by the summer of 1940 all knew that England and France could not handle it.  I think the Japanese did the world a favor in their attack on Pearl Harbor.  In an instance they united the Country in a necessary war.   The next day Hitler declaring War on the U.S fully committing, a united U.S. to the War. 

Frances’s progression and early recognition of the evil of Nazism were the obvious result of her front row seat observing the active Nazi persecution and resulting plight of German Jews. 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 24, 2009, 01:40:32 PM
HAROLD, had you ever heard of Frances Perkins before this book?

What do you think of the relationship between FDR and Frances Perkins?  It was unusual for its day certainly!

Did your class admire FDR, do you remember?

But along with FDR's toughness, he must have possessed a lot of self-confidence to promote a woman and, particularly, as head of labor realizing that the working men would not believe a woman could handle the job.


Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 24, 2009, 03:08:37 PM

(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/perkinsfran/perkinscvr.jpg)

The Woman Behind the New Deal:
     The Life of Frances Perkins,
          FDR'S Secretary of Labor and His Moral Conscience

               by Kirstin  Downey


Links:
Frances Perkins Center (http://francesperkinscenter.org/)
Frances Perkins, Dept. of Labor (http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/history/perkins.htm)
Jane Addams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Addams)
[Frances Perkins Speech (http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=250364&ac=PHnws)

Discussion
August   l -  8    
August  9 - 15  
August 16 - 22    
August 23 - 31

Schedule
Chapters 1-9
Chapters 10-18
Chapters 19-27
Chapters 28-38


FOR CONSIDERATION


As fear rose of war, suspicions of immigrants appeared and the Immigration Service was transferred from FP’s Labor Dept. to the Justice Department.  Today it is under Homeland Security and there is still suspicion of immigrants.  What should be done to alleviate fear of illegal or legal immigrants?

FPerkins and FDRoosevelt had a very unusual relationship that was beneficial to both.  What accounted for it?  

“She did not want to admit that she thought FDR might have played a ’false role’ that day, that he had prior knowledge of the situation in Hawaii.”(pg.322)  Has this ever been proven to your knowledge?  What do you think?  

What do you think is meant by a “good war?”

It is unbelievable that a large-scale attack by an enemy of the USA could occur today.  Why?

Is war a male preserve?  

Roosevelt promoted conflict between people and agencies.  “A little rivaly is stimulating, you know.  It keeps everybody going to prove that he is a better fellow than the next man.  It keeps them honest too.” - (pg.360 The Roosevelt I Knew)  Is this a good way to govern?  Or to lead?

Truman came in the back door, so to speak.  How did it happen?

FP disclosed her anti-Catholism when she spoke against Jimmy Byrnes (pg.335).  Was there a lot of prejudice against Catholics in the US and why?

Who should have the power to decide if a president is ill and cannot perform the duties of the office?  Should FDR have been allowed to go to the Yalta Conference?  Why not send VP Truman in his place?

Could FDR’s “dream” of going to Saudi Arabia, after the war, might have been due to the fact that there was oil there?  (pg.340)  He must have known how precious that resource was to the world.

“Truman wold not have been Frances’ choice for president.” (341)  Was she snobbish?

“his (Truman) only Washington experience was as a one-term senator.”  We’ve had two presidents since then with this profile.  Could it be that no experience in Washington is an asset?

“Truman faced a daunting task.  FDR thought him so insignificant that he never bothered to share the details about the war or foreign affairs with him” (pg.346)  The presidency of the USA is one of great power and we should never allow this situation to happen again.  How can it be prevented?


Discussion Leaders:   Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) and Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com)



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


JEAN: that information on women in the auto strike was fascinating. I had no idea.

And you're absolutely right about the media. I participated in a content analysis of women's magazines from 1930 through the 70s. We were looking at something else, but you couldn't miss the change. Not only did the role of women change, the intellegence level dropped: the stories were "dumbed down".
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 24, 2009, 03:15:28 PM
I'm fascinated by the way FDR is portrayed. He comes across as someone who had no strong convictions of his own, but is swayed by the first person who talks to him. This seems to be the way FP saw him.

I'm inclined to think the strong relationship between FDR and FP was due to her social skill. She seems to have seen him as he was, and used that, as best she could, to acheive what she thought was important.

This sounds cold and manipulative but I don't mean it to. She seems to have had a wide ability to accept people as who they were, with all their warts and pimples, and to relate to them on that level. I admire that.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 24, 2009, 05:41:27 PM
Regarding women in the workforce today and, particularly, women in positions of authority in the government, Dee Dee Myers, press secretary to President Bill Clinton, just published a book called WHY WOMEN SHOULD RULE THE WORLD and she writes that although she had a position of responsibility, she did not have the authority.  She was not given that authority and, consequently, did not last long in the job; however, she had nothing but praise for Clinton.  He needed women in his White House and she had worked hard for him and was given the job which was due her; however, her pay was less than those in like positions of equal status.
When she complained of this fact, she was told there was no money in the budget and when she told her boss of a fellow who was making more but had less responsibility, her boss said - BUT HE HAS A FAMILY TO SUPPORT.

As you said, JEAN, things do not change!

JOANK:  I'm not sure that I agree altogether with the assesment of FDR in your post.  Frances wrote a book about him after he died; she admired him tremendously stating over and over that he was a very complex man.  Phrases such as "deep philosophy, humility of spirit, completely warmhearted, truly great man" are throughout the book.  "He never displayed the slightest bitterness over his misfortune," she says.



Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 24, 2009, 05:53:08 PM
Frances Perkins, in her book on FDR, tells many stories of her relationship with FDR, but he gave her very good advice when he appointed her Industrial Commissioner of the State of New York when he was Governor.

How to handle politically minded people:  "Always ask their advice, whether you take it or not."

He told her to go ahead with her legislative programs, but he said "Keep me posted so I won't make mistakes when I don't know exactly what is going on."  He encouraged her, he was a mentor.

"There was a bond beween Roosevelt and the ordinary men and women of this country-and beyond that, between him and the ordinary men and women of the world.  He was profoundly loyal to them."

All these qualities are strange for a man who had been born to wealth, had a fine education and when young and robust was handsome, polished and charming.  I wish you could see the pictures in this book; one of him hunting in a field, one with Al Smith; the others after the polio.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JeanClark on August 24, 2009, 08:04:32 PM
I have just finished the book, a lot to digest. FDR was very fortunate to have her on his side. She probably wouldn't havebeen elected if she had run for public office. It seems a shame that she had to struggle with money problems all of her life after working so hard and giving so much of herself, good thing that she has some generous friends that recognized her worth.It is sad that she wasn't given the respect and acknowledge that she deserved. So much for trying to enter a men's world, too bad that they were uncomfortable with her at meetings, couldn't swear and brag about their conquests. I lived in the greater Washington area for a number of years and was appallled at some of the things that went on,lost a lot of respect for the government functionaries.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 25, 2009, 08:45:58 AM
WWII. Were you born?  Were you in school?  Did you learn about the war in school, in college?  What do you know?  Are you interested?  Here are a couple of questions from the book:

“Perkins did not want to admit that she thought FDR might have played a ’false role’ that day, that he had prior knowledge of the situation in Hawaii.”(pg.322)  Has this ever been proven to your knowledge?  What do you think?  

What do you think is meant by a “good war?

JEANCLARK:  Tell us a story about your life in Washington and why you lost respect for those in government?  As Don Hewitt, of 60 Minutes fame, said TELL A STORY!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 25, 2009, 09:49:07 AM
I had heard of Frances as Secretary of Labor.  She was firmly in my mind in that post but I certainly did not realize the extent of the influence she had exerted out side of her Labor Dept.  As noted previously in the 1930's Presidents relied much more than they do today on their Cabinet ministers as a group of advisers in the formulation of many major policy decisions.  Even so I suppose we must conclude that Frances's favored position as an adviser to FDR was unusual.  I dont think the country generally realized it..  In any case the prominence of her role came as a surprise to me.  
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 25, 2009, 10:56:18 AM
Ella,
Your mention of Don Hewitt's book, "Tell Me A Story", reminds me that I wanted to ask you if you think that book would make a good discussion.
Back to FP and FDR,  I think he recognized her early on in NY when she was basically working for the voters in NY.  She put forth her ideas in such a way, that interested FDR and brought forth his enthusiasm.  She was so good at presenting her ideas to him.
I think we have heard the story of FDR's already knowing about what was going to happen in Hawaii so many times, we just take it for granted that its true. But here's a link that you might like to read:
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408 (http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408)
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: maryboree on August 25, 2009, 11:16:59 AM
Not having read this with you, I find it interesting to read each of your thoughts on Frances Perkins' role in government.  Harold says "in any case the prominence of her role came as a surprise to me."  I imagine that it would because her name to most wasn't even recognizable throughout the years, except perhaps to those who have studied our history during those years. What I'm learning  is that no matter how smart/intelligent women are, women hardly make a dent in getting credit for their accomplishments in government roles.  I, for one, would love to see a woman president-- and SOON.  It just baffles me that in other countries of the world women have become leaders of their domain, going back to Cleopatra in B.C., and yet today in America we look upon women as not equal in that position. Sometimes I have to laugh of the stupidity of it all but it really isn't funny.  

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 25, 2009, 11:24:28 AM
Ella,
Quote
There are some questions in the heading and the first one is about immigration. There were big problems during the 30's and 40's.  Are there problems with it today?  What are they?  What can be done?  Does your attitude change depending on the section of the country you live in?

Well according to some government officials they try to minimize the problems we have with illegal immigrants.  It seems they are aware of the fact we have millions here and don't really know what to do about it.  In the new purposed health reform bill it is believed to have some sort of coverage for illegals.

An interesting story I have for you.  I was talking with my sister yesterday and she told me how her son who is 37 yrs old and belongs to the Local 8 electricians union is fit to be tied.  He was laid off last year, one of many times in the past years.  He filed for his unemployment and was denied.  They informed him when they processed his claim, it showed he was currently working under his social security number.  He told them NO WAY was he employed.  As they did an extension search they found out an illegal alien had stolen his social security number and was using it employed in another state.  They supposedly cleared this up and he was able to get his unemployment.  He returned back to work a few months later.  Just last week he got laid off again.  He filed for his unemployment and once again he was denied.  Same woman was still using his social security number still working at a McDonalds in another state.  He was furious!  He has actually spoken to a person in the FBI and has been told there has been no harm done here so they have no reason to prosecute this woman.  He is furious!  They told him this is not an isolated case it is a common problem they have been finding.  He said the government is aware its a massive problem and refuses to do anything about it.

He is continuing this battle to get his unemployment check along with stopping this woman from using his social security number.  I told my sister to tell him to WRITE letters to all  his state representatives, the attorney general and contact the news stations and news papers to reveal what it happening. 

Yes, at one point in life all of our ancestors were immigrants.  They came to America to begin a better life and now we have generations after generations.  We are the melting pot of the world.  My Italian grandparents immigrated here and I am Italian, Indian and Irish.  My husband is German, Irish and Scottish.  So, I have NO issues of immigration.  I have issues with illegal immigrants.  We have laws so all citizens are protected and treated equal.  The law is, you come and apply for U.S. citizenship.  Why has the government allowed this to get so out of control?  They are putting our country at risk and now U.S. citizens are having their identity stolen by illegal immigrants.

I just wonder how Frances Perkins would have dealt with this issue back then?

I live in Ohio, so I must say I probably have not personally experienced the effects as states like Texas, California, Florida etc. the states where there are the larger problems and population of illegal or legalized immigrants.  I have no problem what so ever of any human being living in the United States, so long as they are legal and abide by our Constitution and laws.  Maybe my attitude would be different if I lived in the states that seem to be more effected.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 25, 2009, 11:43:55 AM
maryboree,
Quote
What I'm learning  is that no matter how smart/intelligent women are, women hardly make a dent in getting credit for their accomplishments in government roles.  I, for one, would love to see a woman president-- and SOON.  It just baffles me that in other countries of the world women have become leaders of their domain, going back to Cleopatra in B.C., and yet today in America we look upon women as not equal in that position. Sometimes I have to laugh of the stupidity of it all but it really isn't funny.




I agree with all you said.  It is and always will be a "man's world" in Washington.  Someone as intelligent and as experienced as Hillary Clinton got forced out of her campaign by the DNC's underhandedness.  She was mocked and ridiculed endlessly by the media and Barrack Obama.  When he laughed about her mentioning she went hunting as a child with her father, calling her "Annie Oakley" that was a perfect example of how women are treated when and if they become a threat of gaining any level of status or positions of power in this country.  Seems the perfect place and title for her is "Secretary".  Women like Dee Dee Myers who worked under Bill Clinton, did not give any support to Hillary.  She and her husband wrote an article that bashed Hillary.  I remember watching Dee Dee on an interview and it was deplorable.  So for her to write a book "WHY WOMEN SHOULD RULE THE WORLD" is a bit hypocritical IMO.

Until we can put party differences aside, and women are willing to support other women, we will never see a woman President.  I agree, Maryboree, it is NOT funny at all.  We hardly heard of Frances Perkins and what she did to bring about the success of FDR's years in office.  He was for her when it worked for him.  He was silent when he decided to let her go it alone and hang in the wind.  A fair weather friend I would call his relationship with Frances.  As the saying goes, "Behind every success man, is a woman."  He got all the recognition, she got his praise.[/list]
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 25, 2009, 12:27:10 PM
Regarding today's remembrance of Frances Perkins, I think a bit more than half of the 70 -90+ age group living here at Chandler remembered Frances at least as being involved in the Roosevelt Administration.  Most of these remembered that she had been Secretary of Labor.  I don't think any, my self included, remembered any detail about her service or what she had don prior to 1933. Most of the young people under 40 had no idea who she was.

I'm trying to put together National Income Statistics probable Gross Domestic Product for the years 1925 through 1950 so we might judge the results to the programs employed to counter the depression.

Bellamarie, I sort of liked Hillery last year.  She came out initially as a potent candidate.  Unfortunately Obama a late arrival came out with a better campaign  that somehow caught the favor of the people.  I don't think it was a male-female question at all.  The candidate that presented the better campaign won.   I think Hillery centered too much on her initial front runner position until suddenly she wasn't in first place any more.

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 25, 2009, 01:29:22 PM
I was born in 1941, so i didn't remember FP at the time and i don't remember when i first heard about her, but i did know that she was the first woman cabinet member probably in my teens when i knew what THE "cabinet" was.  :) Of course, my parents were huge FDR fans, so it may have come from their discussions.

Harold - you talked about the Supreme Crt packing issue. I had always tho't that that was a huge issue and that the Court that been a huge obstacle to FDR, but Downey's story seemed to me to say that it was a minor hindrance, at first, and then he got to appoint his people.

Question to Kristin Downey - do you know if FP got the same salary as a Cabinet member as the men?  

I don't know how she survived financially paying for hospitalization for both her husband and her dgt. Altho, i guess the costs were not as horrendous as they would be today. My parents never had any health insurance, but going to the doc didn't cost them a day's pay. They were able to take advantage of Medicare at the end of their lives when they had the most severe illnesses.

I agree w/ Harold about the wisdom of the campaigns of Clinton and Obama. I also agree that Clinton got some bad press as a woman. The contemporary women's movement started in the 70's and there has been quite alot  written about the treatment of women in the press. I would have tho't that newswriters and editors (altho i'm not sure there are editors anymore when i read the grammatical mistakes that are in the papers and magazines) would be eduacated to stop talking about how attractive some woman is, or what she's wearing, or other "feminine" stereotypes. We do see women in positions of authority - and yes, they often have the responsibility, but not the authority - but it is true that some women have bought into the "appearance" stereotype, or bashing other women, etc. But no group is a monolith - e.g. Sarah Palin/Hillary Clinton - and we shouldn't expect them to be. It is distressing to see women not supporting women, or worse, being verbally against each other, but i could not support Sarah Palin for any national position. I was impressed w/ how respectfully  she spoke about Hillary Clinton during the campaign, but other than that, i don't have anything that i could positively about her beyond that.
Your posts are all wonderful. I completely agree w/ Ella on the immigration issue. We're all descended from immigrants - many see to forget that, or have a lot of myths about how their ancestors assimilated quickly and became "American" immediately upon stepping onto the dock of the the U.S. That never happend. EAch nationality has had it's clubs, had churches in which their first language was spoken, had newspapers and magazines in their first language, etc. It's almost always the second generation who assimilate and learn the language and culture. But they still are proud of their culture of origin, as they should be.
Being legal is the issue, as Ella said.
It's interesting how acute FP was in her assessment of Nazi Germany and France and how she was ignored when she tried to relay her opinion to the powers that be. Downey doesn't relate whether any of them acknowledged to  her "you were right."
She gets more and more impressive to me as i read more of the book
Bellamarie, what a terrible position your relative is in. I don't get why the justice system isn't interested in her crime.
We have Eleanor R to thank for FDR having some understanding of what was happening w/ the common person in society. FDR said she was his eyes and ears, since he could not so easily move around the country. I think she was also his conscience in many cases, pushing him to think about what was happening for Blacks and women and Jews, etc. ...........jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 25, 2009, 01:46:44 PM
Arianna Huffington says Obama needs to learn FDR's tactics

Click on her column on the left-hand side w/ the Obama headline.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 25, 2009, 02:44:23 PM
The Woman Behindthe New Deal: The Life of Frances Perkins, FDR's Secretary of Labor and HIS MORAL CONSCIENCE.

How so?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 25, 2009, 02:46:40 PM
"Look at the way FDR handled the fight over Social Security. Despite stiff opposition from within his own party, he vowed to veto any legislation that undermined Social Security's core principles. Speaking of the entrenched interests arrayed against him, FDR said, "They are unanimous in their hate for me -- and I welcome their hatred."  - from Huffington's column

Good hatred?  Is there such a thing!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 25, 2009, 03:10:46 PM
Like Joan, I feel I've been treated to a new perspective on FDR, thanks to Frances Perkins. Her book The Roosevelt I knew sounds like a eulogy on the recently dead president, so her comments on his character and mind in the book we're reading must come from the later oral history FP left behind. His decision making seems almost laughable as she describes it, almost disparaging. Perhaps even sexist, when she exclaims after one of FDR's decisions: THAT MAN! THAT MAN! Of cours FDR's political antennae, unlike hers, were always out.

I like the scene that FP describes of a meeting of the cabinet members called together to consider the German invasion of her neighbors.

Page 292. 'All the Cabinet officers convened at the White House. Many of the men were angry, uttering oaths and blasphemies about the perfidy of the Germans - a STARTLING CHANGE FROM THE GENTLEMANLY WAY THEY USUALLY SPOKE IN HER PRESENCE.' Frances recalled.'

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 25, 2009, 03:18:29 PM
I don't know what lessons Obama could derive from the style and policies of his predecessor. It helps to have talent and brains in your cabinet. The rest seems up to the gods.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 25, 2009, 03:36:48 PM
I think FDR is contiuously interesting, no matter what i learn about him - so complex that you can use amost any adjective about him, and be right at some point in his life. I think FP and ER were not his total moral conscience, as tho he had none of his own, but when he got too concerned w/ only the politics, they tended to say "what about the people involved under this policy?" That's the role of advisors no matter what their specialty - finance, law, commerce, environment, social issues - to bring their concern to the issue. FP brought the laboring person "into" the White House; ER brought the people she was learning about - the miners, the homeless, the Blacks, the women and then the soldiers in conbat.

Wouldn't you have loved to have known all three of these people? I would!.............and i am grateful to Kristen Downey and SL, and Ella and Harold for bringing FP to my consciousness in such great detail. I'm going to lead book discussions on some presidential couples, in the Spring, at our library. I will definitely recommend this book when we are talking about FDR and ER...........................
Just read your last post Jonathan. The writer was implying that Obama needs to mke some hard decisions and stand by them, as she thinks FDR did - maybe she needs to read more about him.  :P    She thinks Obama is not being the leader that he needs to be, that he's floating too much about what needs to be done about health care...................................The Bush admin'n was very good about having a message and everybody voicing the message, and it worked, at least in the short run. Obama seems not to know which message he wants to send on sev'l issues...........................you're right about the gods, and their seem to be so many of them in todays world..... :) ............jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 25, 2009, 06:28:27 PM
"I think FP and ER were not his total moral conscience, as tho he had none of his own, but when he got too concerned w/ only the politics, they tended to say "what about the people involved under this policy?" That's the role of advisors no matter what their specialty - finance, law, commerce, environment, social issues - to bring their concern to the issue." - JEAN

That's a great post, Jean, thank you!

HI JONATHAN!  Is it too soon to judge Obama?  Perhaps he needs a British mentor, a counterpart?  A Churchill, perhaps?  The British are still over there in Afghanistan aren't they? 

FP thought that the two (FDR and Churchill would be stronger than either would be alone).   Would either leader go down in history without the advent of WWII?  We will never know and that is what makes history so fascinating.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 25, 2009, 06:39:34 PM
HaroldArnold,
Quote
Bellamarie, I sort of liked Hillery last year.  She came out initially as a potent candidate.  Unfortunately Obama a late arrival came out with a better campaign  that somehow caught the favor of the people.  I don't think it was a male-female question at all.  The candidate that presented the better campaign won.   I think Hillery centered too much on her initial front runner position until suddenly she wasn't in first place any more.

With all due respect, I don't think it had anything whatsoever to do with who had the better campaign.  The DNC did some very underhanded things to place Obama as the front runner and then Obama had the media to pull him along.  It wasn't a coincidence, the media, newspapers and even magazines were in love with Obama.  Now look at how they are pulling away from him as the his favorable and job performance polls are dropping and his policies are being challenged.  They have lost their ratings, and subscriptions for being so slanted.  It was for sure a a male vs female position and it will continue to be until women stand together instead of attacking each other.  We only help the men keep us in a lower level by doing so.  IMO.  Hillary like Frances Perkins would have made a fine President, instead they took the spot beside/behind the man. 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 25, 2009, 06:46:44 PM
Jean,
Quote
Arianna Huffington says Obama needs to learn FDR's tactics

It's probably one of the first intelligent things I have heard from Arianna.  lol  Just kidding.  But I do agree with her.  Obama is not tough like FDR.  He is not experienced and does not like confrontation.  He takes corrective criticism as a personal attack, and then stiffens his shouders and atttacks back with his oh so cute smile.  Its not working anymore.  Now he has to prove to his supporters he was the right choice because now more than ever we could use a President like FDR.  Or... I would even be happy to have a Frances Perkins whispering in Obama's ear.  lolol
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 25, 2009, 07:55:32 PM
Well, BELLEMARIE, if Hillary was as good as FP in her role in government, she would be whispering in Obama's ear.

Aren't we being too quick to judge Obama?  He hasn't been in there very long and he had a heck of a lot on his plate when he took office, some very unexpected problems like the economy.  Now we are hearing good reports that we may be out of the worst of the recession.  The Dow Jones has gone up 1500 points from when he took office.  

Yeah, he smiles.  You don't think he can be tough??  I don't think anyone can get to the top of the political field without being tough.

Tomorrow night at 7 pm on MSNBC there is going to be a program on the Kennedy Brothers.  One of them, a young president - the youngest yet I believe - who had very little experience,  also,  is going down in history as one of most beloved.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 26, 2009, 06:38:15 AM
IMHO, what has happened to our political scene is not particularly admirable.  It has become more of an American Idol scene starting with the Kennedy administration.  And part of that result started with the father, Joe Kennedy, and his affair with Hollywood actress, Gloria Swanson.  Then John and Robert carried that forth with Marilyn Monroe.  Very star struck, the Kennedy men.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 26, 2009, 07:47:04 AM
I came across this book last night and wondered if our lovers of American history know anything about the book and its author as to whether this is credible history
http://books.google.com/books?id=24yIV_hnh7wC&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=Kennedy+males+like+the+Hollywood+starlets&source=bl&ots=lulvjNQJfF&sig=CASs6rsvPZe8nEK7sMmJ8Q446bo&hl=en&ei=jw-VSovoBoO0tgfy1_23Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=24yIV_hnh7wC&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=Kennedy+males+like+the+Hollywood+starlets&source=bl&ots=lulvjNQJfF&sig=CASs6rsvPZe8nEK7sMmJ8Q446bo&hl=en&ei=jw-VSovoBoO0tgfy1_23Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=&f=false)
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 26, 2009, 11:02:52 AM
No, ANN, I've never heard of that author, but that stuff about the Kennedy clan, father and son, is all old news as far as I am concerned.  

As is reading about WWII!  For those of you who know the history of the war, its battles, their conclusions, its leaders, did you learn anything new about it?

Anything new about Roosevelt?  What about Frances Perkins?  It must have been very difficult for her to be put on the back burner in those years of war:

"Pearl Harbor marked an important life transition for Frances in several other important ways.....Roosevelt's call to arms forced the New Deal into the background.  Winning the war.....a male preserve......less room for a woman.....he pointedly excluded Frances.....pushed from the inner circle."

Roosevelt stripped offices from her as he had done with the immigraation service, moving agencies from one place to another." (pg.324)

Frances was entering her sixth decade of life.  Today she would be thinking Social Security, wouldn't she?  Medicare?

Weren't you?

Roosevelt was obviously very, very ill before he went to the Yalta Conference.  Why couldn't someone else go?  Could not the State Dept. have briefed a diplomat, a VP, or Secretary or State, to take his place?

MUST OUR GOVERNMENT DEPEND ON ONE INDIVIDUAL IN TIMES OF CRISIS TO SPEAK FOR ALL OF US, TO MAKE DECISIONS THAT WILL AFFECT THE NATION FOR DECADES?

Who can tell a president he cannot do something because he is too ill to serve?

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 26, 2009, 11:12:26 AM
Section I of Article II: "In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by Law provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected.

That is what our Constitution says.  The Congress has the authority.  "inability to discharge the powers and duties of said office."

I can't ever imagine Congress exercising that authority, can you?

By the time they appointed a committee and they studied the issue for several months, the President would no doubt be dead.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 26, 2009, 12:17:55 PM
Was it a sorry end to her career?

Page 349. 'I had a program in mind....The program is almost accomplished. Everything except health insurance, that I had on my original list and some things we have been able to do because the climate was right for social change.'

The coming of the war changed everything. The Woman Behind the New Deal became irrelevant, and even a political liability. The New Deal issues are put on the back burner. FP's Labor Department shrivels from 7301 to 3696. Her authority erodes. Frances loses her verve, becomes dispirited, seeks solace and strength in religion, and a bit of oblivion in the bottle...thinks of herself as an 'unappreciated mother', politically speaking. (Did she try a wrong approach, a wrong image?)

Page 327-8. 'She did not air her grievances publicly, but she raged about them in private. Her notes documented her silent fury.'

Was her legacy of reforms a lasting one? I seemed to remember some attempt to change the welfare aspect of some of them in the Clinton administration. I've just checked the references to it  in his own book, MY LIFE. What caught my attention was Clinton's references to health coverage:

'I told the Congress I knew it was hard to change the system. Roosevelt, Truman, Nixon, and Carter had all tried and failed. The effort virtually destroyed Truman's presidency....This happened because, for all our problems, most Americans had some kind of coverage, liked their doctors and hospitals, and knew we had a good system of health-care delivery. All those things were still true. Those who profited from the way health care was financed were spending huge sums to convince the Congress and the people that fixing what was wrong with the health-care system would destroy what it did right.' page577

Right for some. The rest...well, I think of the conversation at a dinner table in a wilderness camp in the Adirondacks years ago...about health costs in the U.S. A professional health care person remarked that some people were going to Animal Clinics for something like an immunity vaccine.  For forty bucks instead of the four hundred charged by their doctor.  Unbelievable?

I HAD A PROGRAM IN MIND.  Wouldn't that have made a good alternative title for Kirstin's book?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 26, 2009, 03:44:28 PM
Ella, 
Quote
if Hillary was as good as FP in her role in government, she would be whispering in Obama's ear.

I think Hillary as Secretary of State is whispering in Obama's ear and he in hers. Hillary, is just as important as Frances was to FDR, its just in a different position and capacity.  Hillary is knowledged in foreign affairs and Frances social affairs. And let us not forget she was beside Bill Clinton in his eight years as President giving much advice and working on health care reform.  Obama, must have trust and faith in Hillary, to appoint her to such a position, just as FDR had in Frances.  Obama acknowledged Hillary's status, intelligence, and accomplishments when he praised her on the day she stepped down and the day he appointed her Secretary of State. 

Ella with all due respect your statement about Hillary strengthens my point, that women will never acheive the respect or position as President until women begin to support them and join with them, especially when they are more or at least as qualified as a man.

Quote
Now we are hearing good reports that we may be out of the worst of the recession.
 

What the COB, and other unbiased experts refer to this slight incline is...  Double dipping, we will go a slight bit up, only to find the economy taking another dive down with inflation to follow.  The prediction is this will last another two years at the least.  Yes, Obama had a lot on his plate, but his enormous spending and failed programs so far has only made things worse.  He had no more or no less than FDR did when he took office. The figures we are seeing coming out gives me pause, and I wonder if its like when Frances Perkins exposed Hoover for fudging the figures to give the people false hope. People are still losing their jobs, the Post Office just announced they are going to give $15,000 cash incentives to 30,000 workers in the distribution centers to get them to retire or leave.  They are closing Post Offices and have put a halt to constructing new ones. 

Quote
You don't think he can be tough??  I don't think anyone can get to the top of the political field without being tough.

No, as far as what he has shown, I don't think he can be tough.  I disagree you have to be tough to get to the top of the political field.  I belive you have to know and have the support of the right people.  Many presidents have been weak.  Our allies and enemies have tested him and he has not faired well, to date. Russia, Georgia, North Korea, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.   

I liked JKF and Robert, but as far as Ted Kennedy I could never get over his Chapiquidick scandal. I appreciate he gave 50 yrs of service.  I thought it interesting how when Kerry was running for President, Ted  pushed to change the rules so Kerry's seat could not be taken by a Republican.  Just last week, the democrats knowing Ted was close to death, sent a letter via Ted Kennedy trying to change the rules yet again in the event of his death, so once again a Republican could not get the seat. Pretty sad in his last days of his life the DNC tried to underhandedly control the  soon to be vacancy. I found it interesting how Frances Perkins said she was not really interested in one party, what she cared the most about was whoever would support her causes and would do right by the American people.  I totally agree with her thinking.



Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 26, 2009, 04:14:16 PM
ADOANNIE,
Quote
IMHO, what has happened to our political scene is not particularly admirable.  It has become more of an American Idol scene starting with the Kennedy administration.  And part of that result started with the father, Joe Kennedy, and his affair with Hollywood actress, Gloria Swanson.  Then John and Robert carried that forth with Marilyn Monroe.  Very star struck, the Kennedy men.

I completely agree with this.  America has become star struck, they want a celebrity figure as their President.  Some don't mind they are not qualified, as long as Hollywood can rap and sing, walk the red carpet and wine and dine with them.  Its about gliz and glamour.  The Kennedys did in fact begin this trend.  Jackie became the fashion statement for all women.  JFK and his affairs, mafia connections and hollywood parties in the white house were the beginning.  I have read many books on the Kennedy's and their lives as far back as Ireland, and Joe was damned and determined to be ambassador and get one of his sons elected President.  He didn't care who he had to step on to make it happen or what laws he had to break.

They called those the "Camelot" years.  I was young and impressionable and adored the Kennedy family.  I do respect what they have all contributed to government service and other social issues.  But.. I won't glorify, celebritize nor canonize any of them. 

Ella, You may say it is old news, but Ted Kennedy and the DNC trying to once again change the law so they could hurry and control the vacancy is just an example of how they acheived their status back years ago and still doing it today, just like they did throughout the Kennedys entering politics. 

May Ted and Eunice rest in peace with their family members who went before them. 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 26, 2009, 06:06:10 PM
Good post, JONATHAN!  You've read Clinton's book?  I haven't done that yet, it's a hefty one isn't it?  Good quote about health care and I think he is right all the way; that paragraph sums it up very well.  Last night one statistician (and they are coming out of the woodwork everywhere) gave the total of what we spend in the USA for one person's health care in one year and what Sweden (I think it was, but it could have been England, Canada, Switzerland, Germany - they all do better than we do) spends.  We spend 2/3rds more.  We don't read of people dropping over dead from lack of care in any of those countries, people in line trying to get surgery.  I haven't read of any!

Thanks, BELLEMARIE, for your thoughts on the political scene.  Gosh, we could talk forever about politics and the rights/wrongs of it all (and maybe we could, can you think of a good book to base the discussion on?).  Free speech, isn't it grand, we just all argue and pound and get irritable, but it's for love of country.

We have just lost the last Kennedy brother.  Decades of the Kennedys; one wonders about the tragedies of it all.  

Wouldn't Frances have had some health insurance as an employee of the Federal Government?  Anyone know?  And wouldn't Paul, and possibly, Susan, have been able to be included on it?  She seems so burdened financially by their care.

Has anyone here read ALICE, a biography of Alice Longworth Roosevelt, by Cordery?  I recognize a few of the people FP knew from that book; all Washingtonians during that period.  For example. Senator Borah was Alice's secret lover for years and years!  Both of them married! And she never liked Eleanor either!  Detested her.  Made fun of her and they were cousins!  But she could be very cruel.  She came from the Oyster Bay Roosevelts and they were superiors, AHA!

Whoops, dinner time.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on August 26, 2009, 06:51:51 PM
Kristin, I've been away visiting the grandchildren and have just learned that you will be speaking at the National Book Festival in DC.  Let's try to get together before or after your talk.  Several of us plan to be there - most likely on Sept. 25.  We are looking forward to seeing you there.

  Members of this book club have been attending the Festival since its beginnings - I think it was the year 2000.  Here we were with David McCullough - weren't we so young!  There's another good one with Wally Lamb at the festival around here somewhere.  Will try to find it!
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/graphics/Mcculloush.jpg)

SeniorLearn is a member of the Library of Congress' Center for the Book, which sponsors the Festival.  We're
"Reading Promotion Partners" of the Center.   Back in the day we had our own tables and our members came from all over the country to talk to people about our on-line site - and books of course.  Then, when the Library of Congress experienced the same budgetary issues the rest of the country faces, our big white tent was eliminated from the Mall.  We still attend and still support our favorite authors - such as yourself, Kirstin~

 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 26, 2009, 07:08:09 PM
Jonathon, 
Quote
I seemed to remember some attempt to change the welfare aspect of some of them in the Clinton administration. I've just checked the references to it  in his own book, MY LIFE. What caught my attention was Clinton's references to health coverage:

'I told the Congress I knew it was hard to change the system. Roosevelt, Truman, Nixon, and Carter had all tried and failed. The effort virtually destroyed Truman's presidency....This happened because, for all our problems, most Americans had some kind of coverage, liked their doctors and hospitals, and knew we had a good system of health-care delivery. All those things were still true. Those who profited from the way health care was financed were spending huge sums to convince the Congress and the people that fixing what was wrong with the health-care system would destroy what it did right.' page577

Jonathon I have his book, and found it a good read.  Bill Clinton is a very intelligent man.  The statements he made in this book I fear will be the down fall of each and every President who tries to take health care reform on.  Obama is finding that out now.  The baby boomers and the seniors are standing up and demanding to be heard.  I sense this is only the beginning of an uprising to stop this reform bill.  Fix what is broken, but leave what works alone, is what I am hearing.  No different than what Clinton said.  Americans are generous, they are willing to pay more to help those who can't afford health care, but, they are NOT willing to be bamboozled into something that burdens them, and threatens their care, or life, for the sake of party and policy.  As a Republican stated, "This could be Obama's Waterloo." No different than any predecessor, who attempted to reform health care.

I felt a bit sad for Frances Perkins when she submitted her resignation and Eisenhower accepted it with barely any recognition of her and what she had done.  In my book it says, "On January 23, 1953, just after Eisenhower's inauguration , Perkins wrote a letter of resignation to him.  She had the letter hand-delivered to the White House but heard nothing in response.  Although she was uncertain about what she would do next, she was determined to "move out with dignity."  On the literal eve of her departure, with her suitcases packed, she finally received "a very polite letter from Mr. Eisenhower saying that he thanked me for my services and so forth and accepted my resignation."

At the farewell dinner Truman gave, Frances  found it a very disappointing event, which failed to mark in any significant way the conclusion of two decades of government achievement by Roosevelt and his successor.  The gold plate on the tables failed to compensate for what she saw as a lost opportunity to turn the occasion into something truly memorable.  As it was, it was merely a pleasant reunion.  She lamented the fact that "the occasion just dribbled away without recognizing itself as an era which had finished."

Perkins, whose career had begun in the classroom, spent the last 12 years of her life in academia.  Presumably she had had a change of mind since reporting to her Mount Holyoke classmates in 1909, that she had "thrown a hate" on teaching as a profession."


Did she have a change of mind?  Did she feel defeated, lost outside of the political world?  I wonder if she truly ever was a happy person.  Resorting to drinking makes me wonder if she lived her last years of life depressed much like her daughter and husband.  I know I admire all she did and how she led the way for women to enter the political world.  If Hillary's campaign is said to have put, "18 Millions cracks in the glass ceiling", imagine how many cracks Frances Perkins would have been said to have made back then.  In FDR's words, "Bully for you!"
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 26, 2009, 07:14:05 PM
Ella,
Quote
We have just lost the last Kennedy brother.  Decades of the Kennedys; one wonders about the tragedies of it all. 


Do not lament, we have plenty of Kennedys to aspire to great political careers if they so wish to.  It rather surprised me how people literally outright protested when Caroline Kennedy tried to enter the political field last year.  I fear this generation has NO clue who or what the Kennedy family means to us baby boomers and seniors.  I guess I can quote Frances Perkins from her farewell dinner, ""the occasion just dribbled away without recognizing itself as an era which had finished."
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 26, 2009, 07:21:28 PM
Ella,
Quote
We don't read of people dropping over dead from lack of care in any of those countries, people in line trying to get surgery.  I haven't read of any!

With all due respect, I must tell you the reports I am hearing are contradictory to your statement.  They have been showing people who have been denied care for their illnesses and have died because of it.  The past president of the AMA in Canada was being interviewed last week and he said that ONE MILLION Canadians are waiting one year to see a specialist and ONE MILLION more are waiting one year for surgeries they need.  He said he would advise the United States to not use them as a model for health care reform.  He has NOTHING to gain one way or the other in providing us with this information. 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 26, 2009, 07:25:22 PM
Ella, 
Quote
Thanks, BELLEMARIE, for your thoughts on the political scene.  Gosh, we could talk forever about politics and the rights/wrongs of it all (and maybe we could, can you think of a good book to base the discussion on?).  Free speech, isn't it grand, we just all argue and pound and get irritable, but it's for love of country.

Yes indeed, it is because we ALL love our country and are passionate, just like Frances Perkins was.  Thank you for thoughts.  ;)
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 26, 2009, 08:22:21 PM
On the question of Waiting in line for Health Care provided by Governments.  I frequently listen to the 30 minutes PM question  period sometimes available on Sunday evening evenings on American Cable news.  How often one hears the English PM proudly boasting that his Government has cut the waiting times for necessary cancer treatments down th 3 months.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 26, 2009, 08:25:49 PM
Regarding the overall success of Roosevelt' leadership as as the Nations President:  Over the first 2 terms, he seems to have solicited advice and often accept advice from Frances, or from other cabinet officer or other advisers. No one person knows everything, and in deciding national policy issues every President must formulate his decision based on the advice of experts.   FDR seems to have generally made good decision through which  several ensuing generations of Americans continue to benefit.
 
Did Roosevelt’s leadership patterns change in his 3rd term during WWII?  I don’t really think so.  No doubt Military Officers were more often advisers but on domestic issues the President still went to his Cabinet.  But Major War decisions were international decisions that were a consensus of 3 sovereign Chiefs of governments.  From 1941 until 1944 many major war policy decisions seemed consistently good leading toward  final victory.  During this period Allied decision were most often the concurrence of FDR and Churchill with Stalin's general acceptance. But after 1944 as the War was approaching its final phase, FDR seemed increasingly inclined to side with Stalin rather than Churchill leading to the Iron Curtain dividing Germany into east and west components, with all the countries of Eastern Europe subject to Russian Soviet domination.  Of course by 1944 FDR was showing his age weakened by the illness that caused his death early in his 4th term. But decisions made during the late months of the War set the stage for the 45 years of Cold War that followed
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 26, 2009, 08:53:16 PM
To my great regret, I was traveling, busy with that, sometimes with limited internet access, and got behind both on the reading and the posts.  Boy, am I sorry.  I've missed being part of a really good, lively discussion.  I'm now caught up, and will feed in as much as still seems appropriate about the past stuff, plus all I can about this week's stuff.

A small start: I guess I had just barely heard of Perkins, but my daughter definitely knew who she was.  She is a union-side labor lawyer, and will absolutely love this book.  It will fill her in on the background of her profession, and hit home about women in a man's world, and remind her (she has no illusions on this point) of the sleazy power struggles of unions even while they are doing necessary things for the workers.  I was going to give her my copy, but maybe I'd better get Kirstin to sign another one for her.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 26, 2009, 11:37:44 PM
JoanP, "SeniorLearn is a member of the Library of Congress' Center for the Book, which sponsors the Festival."

How exciting!  I have had two poems published in Anthologies in the International Library of Poetry, and have been invited to the annual dinner to read my poems in Washington.  I would love to go see Kirstin in Sept.  I will have to look for SeniorLearn members if I am able to attend.  It would be nice to have names under that picture so we could all place a face with your names, some of us have not had the pleasure of being able to join your group outings, to meet you all in person. 
Kudos for SeniorLearn!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 26, 2009, 11:43:43 PM
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/perkinsfran/perkinscvr.jpg)

The Woman Behind the New Deal:
     The Life of Frances Perkins,
          FDR'S Secretary of Labor and His Moral Conscience

               by Kirstin  Downey


Links:
Frances Perkins Center (http://francesperkinscenter.org/)
Frances Perkins, Dept. of Labor (http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/history/perkins.htm)
Jane Addams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Addams)
[Frances Perkins Speech (http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=250364&ac=PHnws)

Discussion
August   l -  8    
August  9 - 15  
August 16 - 22    
August 23 - 31

Schedule
Chapters 1-9
Chapters 10-18
Chapters 19-27
Chapters 28-38


FOR CONSIDERATION


FPerkins and FDRoosevelt had a very unusual relationship that was beneficial to both.  What accounted for it?  

What do you think is meant by a “good war?”

Is war a male preserve?  

Roosevelt promoted conflict between people and agencies.  “A little rivaly is stimulating, you know.  It keeps everybody going to prove that he is a better fellow than the next man.  It keeps them honest too.” - (pg.360 The Roosevelt I Knew)  Is this a good way to govern?  Or to lead?

Truman came in the back door, so to speak.  How did it happen?

FP disclosed her anti-Catholism when she spoke against Jimmy Byrnes (pg.335).  Was there a lot of prejudice against Catholics in the US and why?

Who should have the power to decide if a president is ill and cannot perform the duties of the office?  Should FDR have been allowed to go to the Yalta Conference?  Why not send VP Truman in his place?

“Truman wold not have been Frances’ choice for president.” (341)  Was she snobbish?

“his (Truman) only Washington experience was as a one-term senator.”  We’ve had two presidents since then with this profile.  Could it be that no experience in Washington is an asset?

“Truman faced a daunting task.  FDR thought him so insignificant that he never bothered to share the details about the war or foreign affairs with him” (pg.346)  The presidency of the USA is one of great power and we should never allow this situation to happen again.  How can it be prevented?


Discussion Leaders:   Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) and Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com)


Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 26, 2009, 11:45:41 PM
Bellamarie, is there a link you can give us to your poems?  If not, you could maybe post them in the Poetry discussion.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 27, 2009, 12:18:30 AM
Harold's post got me thinking - in talking about the war years, I tho't of his choice of Eisenhower as Cmdr of the European forces and i tho't FDR seemed to make good choices of people for various jobs - starting w/ FP of course........... :D :D.......jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 27, 2009, 09:25:21 AM
THANK YOU, JOANP, for posting the picture of SeniorLearn members at the 2000 National Bookfest!  Although she is modest, Joan is the primary person responsible for our membership and our presence in Laura Bush’s wonderful, inspiring Bookfest.

And Joan and Pat will be in Washington listening to our author when she gives her presentation about this book.  I’m so sorry I can’t be there; prior obligations prevent it but I’m so happy for you, KIRSTIN!!!

It is an honor to be chosen!  

 Your book is such a good one, well written, historically factual, and an important book for women, for historians, and for the average reader who is interested in a good biography.

We hope to hear a few more remarks from you before we close this discussion.  What did we leave out of our discussion?  Are you working on another book?

HAROLD,
thanks for the post about FDR.   “decisions made during the late months of the War set the stage for the 45 years of Cold War that followed”  

Is there any way that could have been prevented?  Do you think FDR’s ill health was a fact in those decisions?  

BELLEMARIE, thanks for all your remarks..  And I hope you can be in Washington to meet with our author in September.  DO TRY!

JEAN, you are right, I think.  He had that ability, that would make a good book possibly or maybe there is one on choices of leaders in wartime..  We’ve experienced a few in our lives and there have been good and bad.  

Has anyone read a book about Eisenhower’s presidency?  I never thought a military leader would necessarily make a good president; actually the opposite, but??
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 27, 2009, 09:44:01 AM
I've always rather admired Truman who felt his inadequacies for the task of being president at such a terrible time in the nation's history.  After a popular president died, faced with a foe that was pledged to fight to the end.  What decisions the man had to make, but then I read in this book of his attitude towards Frances Perkins and women in general.

Women would inhibit deliberations in Congress, men would need to restrain their comments.  

However, underneath his public persona, Truman had respect for and admired Frances Perkins; they were friends.

We hear that often when a new administration takes over.  A president brings into his appointments his friends, those whom he trusts to help make decisions.

Thanks, JONATHAN, for your post; for your "I HAD A PROGRAM IN MIND" title.  Yes, I agree.   Everything on her list was accomplished except health insurance.  "Dear Fellix...."  

We are still at it!

TRUMAN WILL BE REMEMBERED, I think, not only for the atomic bomb decision but for the Marshall Plan.

WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER ABOUT COMMUNISM, both abroad and in America?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 27, 2009, 10:34:12 AM
“Truman wold not have been Frances’ choice for president.” (341)  Was she snobbish?

“his (Truman) only Washington experience was as a one-term senator.”  We’ve had two presidents since then with this profile.  Could it be that no experience in Washington is an asset?


I don't feel lack of or no experience in Washington is an asset, I feel the President is as good as his advisors and his core values and causes, along with his prior experience,  and his knowledge of knowing what the people want.  A President is elected on his visions of where he wants to take the country, and generally when they are campaigning you hear them make promises to go with what the people want.  Experience is an absolute asset to the Presidency.  Its like any other job that requires a leader, a CEO, etc.  People are looking for and expecting their leader to have enough experience to be able to deal with the problems that arise, if you have had little to no experience in a leadership role, it would seem you are going to lack the skills and knowledge of making good decisions and strong decisions when needed to.  I feel we are facing that problem today.   You learn good and bad through your experinces in life.  Experience is like knowledge and wisdom.  Once you do something you can determine the best results and what not to try if it fails.    In some jobs you can go in and learn as you go, in the Presidency, we don't have time for on the job training.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 27, 2009, 11:43:14 AM
Hi BELLEMARIE.  It's all debatable isn't it?  I see you do not have an email address and you have stated you live in Ohio.  Where?  I live in Ohio, also, and know another SeniorLearner who lives close.  Do email me!  Perhaps we could meet someday?

As JoanP mentioned we were priviliged to hear David McCullough speak about his book TRUMAN and here is our discussion of his huge book which took a couple of months.

http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/Truman.html

You will notice David McCullough in the picture of some of us at the Bookfest.  I was manning the booth when the picture was taken, so am not included but I saw Laura Bush walk  down the aisle of the white tent where our booth was located.

Great fun!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 27, 2009, 11:45:36 AM
Yes, I'll be at the National Book Festival.  My understanding is that it will run all day on Saturday, Sept 26, so I have a month to figure out details of timing.  I'm looking forward to it--unlike many of you, I have never been to one.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 27, 2009, 12:07:35 PM
Ella,  Hi BELLEMARIE.  It's all debatable isn't it?

Yes, Ella it sure is all debatable, that is what makes this whole discussion group setting work.  I do have a tendency to play devil's advocate just to throw a bit of spice in every now and then.  I've been alerted by our last author, Annie Barrows, while she enjoys it, I take the risk of leaving my self open to a barrage of attacks.  lolol  It's all in fun and we sure do respect, learn and share alot.  I will email you with my address, image getting to meet in person one day!  How fun it would be.  ;)
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 27, 2009, 12:11:09 PM
Regarding Frances’s billing as FDR’s moral conscience in the title:  Kristin, was this term in the title in your original draft or was it the product of the publisher’s marketing staff?   In reality it has very little substance and as Ella pointed out in message #539 it seems to imply that FDR lacked moral conscience on his own.   It certainly has a fine sound to it diverting attention from its lack of any real substance; it seems very much the type of phrase a marketing staff would add.  Of course, there’s nothing wrong with that! It aroused our interest in the book making it the best seller that it is, quite possibly making this discussion a reality.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 27, 2009, 12:19:51 PM
More on U.S.-  England - Russia planning and policy decision making  During WW2.  Early on in 1940 as the German blitzkrieg quickly caused France to surrender and England to stand alone Roosevelt and Churchill began a close relationship  first designed to aid  Britain and after Dec 1941 to prosecute the War.   When the US. Entered the War Russia too was involved so Stalin also became another principal partner.  During 1942 and 1943 key principal decisions included initial concentration on Europe involving sending a large U.S. army to Europe, the appointment of Eisenhower as supreme commander, sending significant material military aid to Russia,  the delay of a western Europe invasion pending the initial effort in North Africa, Sicily and Italy, followed finally on the June 1944 Channel  Normandy landings.  All of these operations went very well; the overall plan was largely the product of Roosevelt and Churchill with Stalin in substantial agreement.

The Change came later in 1944 after American and British forces had liberating most of France and were breaching the German Rhine-Dutch and Belgium defense line.  At this point Stalin became more assertive with plans designed to give Russian Communism control of postwar Eastern Europe.  This is the point when the previous close Anglo American Close alliance began to strain.  At Yalta Roosevelt agreed to hold Allied forces to a division line across north and Central Germany having allowing the Russian Army to continue through Eastern Germany on to Berlin and beyond.  The Russian area included Berlin with provision that Berlin itself was to be divided into 4 zones one each for Russia, England Russia and France.

This is the agreement generally attributed to the 45 year cold war since it gave Russia a strong position controlling Eastern Germany and all of Eastern Europe.  I don’t doubt that FDR health was beginning to deteriorate and may have been a factor in his decision, but there were other reasons for letting the Russian army take Berlin.  The decision certainly saved the American and British Armies something like 100,000 causalities.  The Russian Army certainly took more than 100,000 in their taking of Berlin.  Also even if the Western Army had taken Berlin, the Russians would have had a strong position as the occupier of most or all of the Eastern European Countries meaning a cold war would still have been a post war fact. 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 27, 2009, 01:35:50 PM
Certainly FDR had a conscience, but I think FP was his moral conscience in a very real way.  He appointed her in part because he knew she would be relentless in pushing for her program to happen, no matter if it got inconvenient politically.  They both thought the program was morally good, but FP wouldn’t let FDR buckle if things got awkward.

FP’s moral character runs as a subtext throughout the whole book.  New England doesn’t have a monopoly on such people, but she is a recognizable New England type—totally upright, with high moral standards, a determination to do the right thing, drawing great strength from a deep religious faith, having a super-strong sense of the importance of doing good for humanity, very stoical and reticent in her personal life.  

She felt he had to go to Yalta, even if sick, because it’s what she would have done.  On pages 338-9 she thinks:

"This is the cross the Lord has laid upon him, and he’s got to expend every ounce of energy he’s got to pull this thing through.  He’s got to do it."

"This is the place he’s called to, and he’s got to do it.  You have to do it because you are there, and you have the responsibility.  And there was no earthly way of saying ‘This man can’t go because he is sick.’ "

When Edith Wilson expresses concern over how bad FDR looks, FP tells her: "He has a great and terrible job to do.  Don’t say a word.  He’s got to do it, even if it kills him.  He’s got to do it."
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 28, 2009, 09:21:30 AM
" Kristin, was this term in the title in your original draft or was it the product of the publisher’s marketing staff?   In reality it has very little substance and ....it seems to imply that FDR lacked moral conscience on his own. "   - Harold

That's a good question for Kirstin.  I hope she finds the time to post one more time before the end of our discussion.  

"She felt he had to go to Yalta, even if sick, because it’s what she would have done." - PatH

Oh, yes, she would have; however, she devotes the last chapter of her book THE ROOSEVELT I KNEW to remarks about the ill health of FDR - the period in which FDR, and the big Three, made their world-wide decisions, momentous decisions that are still affecting us today,  at the close of the war.


In looking over the pictures in this section of the book I see so many interesting people.   There is Harriman and Wallace, Truman, even Jack Kennedy.

Which would you have liked to have known?

I was reading a bit about Wallace:

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_A._Wallace" -   "On May 8, 1942, Wallace delivered his most famous speech, which became known by the phrase "Century of the Common Man", to the Free World Association in New York City. This speech, grounded in Christian references, laid out a positive vision for the war beyond the simple defeat of the Nazis. The speech, and the book of the same name which appeared the following year, proved quite popular, but it earned him enemies among the Democratic leadership, among important allied leaders like Winston Churchill, and among business leaders and conservatives.

Wallace spoke out during race riots in Detroit in 1943, declaring that the nation could not "fight to crush Nazi brutality abroad and condone race riots at home."

That last sentence is prophetic; he should have lived to see the 1960's riots and the results.



 


 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 28, 2009, 09:46:03 AM
THE TRUMAN ADMINISTRATION!  We must post a few remarks about this president; the two highlights of his administration that I remember from history courses are, of course, the atom bomb decision, and the MARSHALL PLAN!

The Marshall Plan, we read, was first a vision shared by FDR and Frances.  I never knew that, but the plan left our former enemies in a place where they could enter the world again with their faces turned toward hope, instead of despair as with WWI.

What do you remember about Truman?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 28, 2009, 11:35:36 AM
There was a third major decision required of President Truman- the North Korean Invasion of South Korea.   It was a real blitzkrieg beginning June 25, 1950 with the North Korea capturing the South Korean capital, Seoul.  Trueman as President did not hesitate quickly ordering General MacArthur to sent U.S. Army Units from his occupation force in Japan.  There followed a see-saw campaign that That ended with the original 38 Parallel boarder between the Communist North and Capitalist South unchanged.  The op[eration required over several hundred thousand U.S. troops, with over 30,000 U.S  dead and some 100,000 wounded before the war ended.

President Trumans prompt action to block the Communist North's aggression was certain one of the major decision faced by the Truman administration.  
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War  Click the link for the Wikipedia account of the Korean War.

 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 28, 2009, 12:16:16 PM
Only have a minute, but the two other events i think about re: HST are, the GI Bill, which had an enormous impact on the soiety and the economy, and the integration of the armed forces. That decision was neither politically astute or popular w/ the armed forces - but he felt it was appropriate and necessary and made the hard decision, again. When the leader is making decisions we agree w/, we think it is courageous and responsible to make the hard decisions and to stick by them...........we must remember, however, that a similar thing could be said about a man like Hitler - he made hard decisions and stuck by them. It depends on which side of the moral conscience we find the person, doesn't it?

I think there is a book comparing FDR and Hitler - how they were similar and different. They had many similarities, including being deceptive about what they were doing,  and made decisions which were later considered either "the right ones," or "the wrong ones."  Of course, many on the right were convinced that FDR was a dictator and a communist, etc. and was going to destroy the country.

We need to ponder those issues when we say we want a strong, decisive leader, (as long as he/she is making decisions we agree with) - be careful what you ask for.....................................jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 28, 2009, 04:23:24 PM
Storms are here, I came in to shut down my computer; but  had to take a peek here.

JEAN, WHY WAS THE G.I. BILL CONTROVERSIAL?  I thought it was a very well thought of piece of legialation, giving all veterans a chance for higher education.  Tell me why I am not seeing the whole picture, I am interested!

Oh, yes!  HAROLD, the Korean War.  Terrible!  That and the Vietnam War to follow and the lives destroyed, the awfulness of it!  And we have to ask ourselves what for?  What did it change?  How are peoples' lives better?  

And now.....................

Well, we don't want to get into the history of the last years of the 20th century.  Suffice it to say, it is over!!

Later................
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 28, 2009, 04:36:10 PM
'Regarding Frances’s billing as FDR’s moral conscience in the title:'

Harold raises a good point in post 369, and gets a good reply in Pat's 371.

Yes, I can see FP thinking of herself as having played that role in the 'tremendous social evolution and change' (in her own words, p376) of the New Deal measures that were part of her 'program'. She must have felt that it took a lot of prodding and hectoring to keep FDR mission-oriented. The right thing to do was part of her make-up, perhaps reflecting the puritan ethic that Pat brings into the picture so well. Not that FDR was immoral, although as FP tells us along the way, his smile couldn't always be trusted, and she would remember that interview with the president -elect:

'She watched his eyes to make sure he was paying attention and understood the implication of each demand. She braced for his response, knowing that he often chose political expediency over idealism and was capable of callousness, even cruelty.' (Prologue)

FP's New England upbringing was certainly part of her character. But nothing stubborn about her. Occasionally she settled for half a loaf, if that was all she could get.

What can we make of that other NE characteristic that FP knew of, when she talked about... 'that volcanic emotions rest under the surface of the seemingly reserved inhabitants of the state.' p387

I can see many stormy meditations and inner turmoil in her life. And she kept it all hidden.

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 28, 2009, 05:34:45 PM
FP's New England upbringing was certainly part of her character. But nothing stubborn about her. Occasionally she settled for half a loaf, if that was all she could get.

She new when to take what she could get at the time, that's a sign of a good negotiator and compromiser.  People are more willing to work with someone like this.  Knowing Frances she would come back and get the rest at a later date.  Like when they voted her piece of legislatin unconstitutional and she already had two hidden in her desk that she knew would pass. I sense, NO, was not a part of her vocabulary when it came to what she wanted.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 28, 2009, 07:34:42 PM
I'm slow in finishing up the book. But as a fanatical birder (bird watcher)I was surprised to see in it, one of my favorite bird stories -- the bird who caught a spy and helped launch a presidency.

When Chambers accused Alger Hiss of being a spy, few believed that the shabby slimy Chambers actually knew the urbane sophisticated Hiss. Nixon asked him to tell them anything that would let them know that he had actually talked to Hiss. Chambers said that one day, Hiss was very excited because he had seen a prothonotary warbler.

When Hiss was testifying, he was asked if he had ever seen a prothonotory warbler. He lit up, and said yes. "Do you know the spot?" Now for the first time, people began to believe Chambers -- eventually ruining Hiss and launching the career of Richard Nixon.

"Do you know the spot?" Yes, I do. If you along the towpath on the canal near Washington, at a certain point turn off on a mud trail (ignoring the "no trespassing sign) and follow it along, you come to the pond where prothonotary warblers nest. I still remember waiting for them early one morning twenty years after that trial. And now over fifty years later, when Chambers, Hiss, Nixon, and the Russian "ism" that defined their lives are all dead, I wonder if the prothonetary warblers are still there?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 28, 2009, 07:36:58 PM
The Prothonitary warbler:

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/ConservationAndScience/MigratoryBirds/Featured_Birds/default.cfm?bird=Prothonotary%20Warbler (http://nationalzoo.si.edu/ConservationAndScience/MigratoryBirds/Featured_Birds/default.cfm?bird=Prothonotary%20Warbler)
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 29, 2009, 11:29:47 AM
JoanK, "prothonotary warbler"

How very interesting.  I have beautiful cardinals, hummingbirds, finches, sparrows and bluebirds visit my honeysuckle and array of flowers in my backyard, but never heard of a "prothonotary warbler."  Imagine something like that having such a great importance in history.  You just never know what can launch or bring a politician down.  Thank you for your post.  I learned something new today!!  And anyone brave enough to overlook a do not tresspass sign, enjoy the view.  lol

Thank you for the site,  this is interesting:  Even backyard ponds and swimming pools have attracted prothonotaries occasionally. This special attraction to water may be due to a higher number of decaying trees with nest cavities in flooded areas and the added benefit of lower predation by mammals when the nest-site is located over water.

Since we have an inground pool and all the birds frequent it when the cover is on and standing water is on top, I may just have to take a closer look at those lemon yellow birds flying around.  Afterall, in the early spring we have had frogs mating leaving their tadpole eggs, ducks mating with the mother duck actually leading her little newborn hatched ducklings into our pool, and believe it or not baby possums left behind where they must have fallen off their mother's back during a nightly swim.  Not to mention the bunnies that come and raid my flowerbed and tiny strawberry patch.  My day care kids have adopted and named one particular squirrel who comes every day at lunchtime and we see him out our kitchen window, the kids named him of course, "Mr. Squirrely."  We live in the city, but oh do we ever have our own little sanctuary in our backyard!  My husband and I go out every night and sit on the patio, drink our afternoon coffee and just marvel at nature in its awesome beauty.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 29, 2009, 12:40:14 PM
The Economic Recovery-  A measure of its success or faulure 1929 -  1939 and beyond to 1960

The below table of U.S. Gross Domestic Product gives a measure of the success or failure of the 1930's New Deal Economic policy .  It shows the rapid decline of U.S. domestic output from the  103.6 Billion $ to 56.4 B$ in 1933.  After that the New Deal Recovery package brought GDP back to 92.2 B$ in 1939 and 101.4 B$ in 1940.  The 1940 number approaches the 1929 peak.  After 1940 the rearmament program and WW II cut in finally resulting in significant growth achievements that continued with minor cyclical interruptions until the 2008 collapse.  

I think the New Deal recovery plan was too centered on the necessary first aid relief to individuals.  The new jobs created like the CCC  and most of the other federally financed state and local government jobs were low substance pay many resulting in real achievements of lasting national value.   Perhaps the most potentially successful part of the National Recovery Acts was the many industrial codes and federally financed private enterprises like the Floor Finishing company operating out of the garage at my E 16th street address in Houston.  But this was the part that was quickly declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.

Comparing this 1930's recovery with the present 2008 -09-20?? recovery,  perhaps by its concentration on saving the Banks and the Financial System the 2009 approach is better situated for recovery of the larger general economy?  Definitely at this point the question mark terminating my last sentence most necessary.   The next few years will tell.  ???????.  In any case let us pray that an event of the magnitude of WW II will not be required.

The Source for the Table that follows is:  http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/downchart_gr.php?year=1925_1960&view=1&expand=10&units=p&fy=fy09&chart=11-fed_12-fed&bar=1&stack=0&size=m&title=Various%20Items&state=US&color=c&local=s  

   U.S. Gross Domestic Product 1929 - 1960  (billions of current dollars)
   
   
1929   103.6
1930   91.2
1931   76.5
1932   58.7
1933   56.4
1934   66.0
1935   73.3
1936   83.8
1937   91.9
1938   86.1
1939   92.2
1940   101.4
1941   126.7
1942   161.9
1943   198.6
1944   219.8
1945   223.0
1946   222.2
1947   244.1
1948   269.1
1949   267.2
1950   293.7
1951   339.3
1952   358.3
1953   379.3
1954   380.4
1955   414.7
1956   437.4
1957   461.1
1958   467.2
1959   506.6
1960   526.4
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 29, 2009, 01:02:51 PM
Ella let's keep his discussion open for final Concluding remarks from ever one at least through Monday
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 29, 2009, 05:18:11 PM
Thanks Harold, i was going to suggest that we keep this discussion going for a while also. My husband has been in the hospital for 3 days, so i'm a little behind, but it seemed like everyone had a lot to say.

It hadn't dawned on me before, but we've had quite a recurring history of going from presidents of privilege to presidents who have "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps." I started thinking about how different HST was from FDR. FDR being a man of great privilege, the toniest schools, good contacts w/in the gov't system, people who could place him in good positions, and no concern about money. HST had nothing, in fact went bankrupt a couple times, lost all of his in-laws money in an oil-search bust. Was not a college grad and had no contacts in WAshington. What different perspectives they must have had on the world. And yet each rose to a huge challenge w/ new ideas about how to meet them........the one thing they had in common was strong mothers to whom each was very close and who had great influence on their sons.............huuuummmm................

That thinking led me to JFK and LBJ - very similar histories to FDR and HST..............hummmmm and that led me to G.W. Bush and Bill Clinton and then GB and Obama....................isn't that interesting, some one should research that for a grad thesis and write a book about it, don't you think? ...............hhuuuummmmm!
Jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 29, 2009, 08:25:40 PM
We had a family health problem today and, of necessity, I am just now posting and thank you all so much for keeping our discussion alive!

Of course, we will keep the light burning here for another week or so to gather all the comments folks might want to make.

We have two more days yet to finish up the book AND I AM HOPING TO HEAR FROM KIRSTIN, if she is not on a speaking tour.

The advent of the latest publicity for her book might bring unexpected, but wonderful, engagements and bring additional readers for this worthy book.

Very interesting, HAROLD!  And to say "In any case let us pray that an event of the magnitude of WW II will not be required" is certainly the understatement of the year!  As you said, time will tell about the policy of saving the banks, it's been somewhat of an "exciting ride."  Economists are, no doubt, having a field day with it all.

Okay, JEAN, there is your thesis, work on it!  But you don't think that has already been done?

Well, I was sounding out that "prothonotary" word, JOAN, and trying to figure out where the warbler got that name and then I clicked on your web site and there it was!  That's a lovely story!  Thanks for that.  I have one about a wild bird that we can never forget.  One cat (years ago) caught a downy woodpecker and we saved it, put it in a cage, researched what it ate and, darn, that was a story.  A picture appeared in our local newspaper of my daughter with that little downy woodpecker on her finger.  It loved cream cheese (and hamburger).  Fit right into the family diet!  That was back in those days when we older folks were young and could eat anything!

The communist witchhunt!  Went on for years, long after it should have.; what years those were.  The early days of TV, as I remember, and we all watched the McCarthy hearings.  MERCY!

But I did read the book WITNESS by Whittaker Chambers; it's a good book, very readable, I recommend it!  I wonder if I would think it was dated if I read it again.  Here are a few paragraphs from this site:  http://www.heritage.org/Research/PoliticalPhilosophy/EM735.cfm

"In 1952, Chambers published his magisterial, best-selling autobiography, Witness. The work argued that America faced a transcendent, not a transitory, crisis; the crisis was one not of politics or economics but of faith; and secular liberalism, the dominant "ism" of the day, was a watered-down version of Communist ideology. The New Deal, Chambers insisted, was not liberal democratic but "revolutionary" in its nature and intentions. All these themes, especially that the crisis of the 20th century was one of faith, resonated deeply with conservatives.

Among those who agreed with and often quoted Chambers' uncompromising assessment was a future California governor and U.S. President--Ronald Reagan. Indeed, Witness may have enlisted more American anti-Communists than almost any other book of the Cold War. They included, in addition to our 40th President, William A. Rusher, longtime publisher of National Review; veteran journalist John Chamberlain, who worked with Chambers at Time; and columnist-commentator Robert Novak.

The work continues to have a telling impact. At a Washington dinner last November, retiring Senator Bob Kerrey admitted that reading Witness had enabled him, for the first time in his life, to understand what Communism was all about."

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 29, 2009, 08:34:54 PM
I apologize for that long post!

BELLEMARIE, I think your good sense in realizing that Frances Perkins was adamant in promoting her programs is very astute.

As is JONATHAN, always!  

I am a bit tired this evening to do much else but say Good Night to all and THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL YOUR POSTS.  

THEY ARE SO ENJOYABLE TO READ.

Tomorrow let's finish up the TRUMAN ERA and Frances Perkins' transition from a very stressful life, a public life, into one of uncertainty.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on August 29, 2009, 10:10:47 PM
Instead of posting, as promised, I spent an inordinate amount of time in front of TV,  watching the celebration of Senator Kennedy's life last night, and almost all of Saturday - more than I do in a whole month (!).  I regret this further delay and will try to share some thoughts tomorrow.

By the time the library book came in,  I was wading through Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin for a discussion  with the  live book group next week.  (I was co-leading People of the Book and am still busy with The Raj Quartet.)

For me,  Kirstin Downey's book about Frances Perkins is infinitely more accessible and also closer to my own life experience, even though we did not come to these shores until 1954. That's when we arrived in Washington, D.C. on a typically hot, humid July day, the likes of which we'd never known.

In  due time we became naturalized citizens and voters. My son was born in Washington.  We lived there and in suburban Virginia for twenty years,  until my husband's company transferred him to Massachusetts.  Again new roots to plant and nurture ... It was extremely difficult.

When my husband died, I wanted nothing more than return to Virginia.
I'm still here -  nolens volens.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 29, 2009, 11:25:30 PM
Goodness, Traude, we spent 6 weeks discussing "Team of Rivals" in March and April (it's in the archives).  It's a hugely rich and detailed book--I can't imagine making sense of it in one f2f evening.  Let us know how it goes.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 30, 2009, 12:14:37 PM
I'm sorry to see the discussion of our book coming to an end. What a puzzling life. Such a long and useful life. Such an important role for several decades. Such distinguished acquaintances...justices of the Supreme Court and upper class movers and shakers...and she herself having the ear of the president for a dozen years. And such innocence.

Page 371. 'Later Frances...noted that she had read Whittaker Chambers's book in 1952. It made her, she said, "sort of ill," in fact, almost "nauseated," but she added little additional detail.'

I've heard that WITNESS was a book of revelations at the time, but could there have been that much that was new for FP? She had been on the scene so to speak.

It was interesting to read how closely FP observed FDR when he informed his cabinet of the details of the strike on Pearl Harbor. Given the speculation over the years about FDR's role in the coming of the war, it's curious to read FP's impressions.

Page 321. 'She did not want to admit that she thought FDR might have played a "false role" that day, that he had prior knowledge of the situation in Hawaii, or that he had information that might have saved lives. But she was convinced that "his surprise was not as great as the surprise of the rest of us.'

Reading that reminded me of Lincoln's anguish as described in Team of Rivals. Could it be that FDR was playing the Fort Sumter gambit...a president confronted by inevitable conflict waiting for the other guy to fire the first shot? I suppose never in his wildest surmises did FDR think those sitting ducks at Pearl Harbor would take the hit.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on August 30, 2009, 12:49:21 PM
Ella: somehow, WITNESS escaped my notice. I wonder how dated I would be if I read it now.

Communism appealed to many during the depression: at the time, Americans had no information about how it was actually working out, and its stated aims must have sounded wonderful. People must have been looking for somw hope to hang onto in a world that seemed cruel and indifferent. Only much later do we get to see the reality of how it works out in practice: a different form of dictatorship.

When I was in graduate school in the 70s, there were several communist professors. By then we knew more about the soviet Union, but nothing about China. So the line was "Russia wasn't real communism, but when we were able to enter China, we would see how perfect it was." No one asked why, if it was so perfect, no one was allowed in or out.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 30, 2009, 01:14:08 PM
JONATHAN, I noticed that statement by FP about Whittaker Chamber's book also; the only reason I can think of for her "nauseous" feelings were the facts that Chambers wrote about his communist experiences and gave names of those involved; which included many people in the State Department.  FP probably knew most of them, but it's been many years since I read it and I do not have a clear recollection of the book or its contents.  

I always think that if I remember a book, then it must have been good because there are so many I've read that left no impression, no memory of at all.  That is, no doubt, a very poor reason to recommend a book, and I should not have done it!!!  Oh, golly!

"...a president confronted by inevitable conflict waiting for the other guy to fire the first shot?"  - Jonathan

Very good, JONATHAN, very good.  Isn't it interesting to find such comparisons in history, in great leaders.  They all think alike somehow?

How was it with Truman?  Was he a great leader?  He made a few momentous decisions, but Eleanor, like FDR before her, thought him a very weak man. I can't find a reference offhand to what FP thought of him other than he lacked social graces!  Was awkward at dinners!  AS I would be, as many of us would be, but he should have appointed someone to act for him at the dinner described on Page 376.

"The occasion just dribbled away without recognizing itself as an era which had finished."  FP reminisced.

Hello JoanK!  The 70's.  Funny, I can't recall anything right now about the 70's...I'm brain dead.  China!  When did Nixon enter China, opening it up to the west, he and his lovely, silent wife (she that never opened her mouth) in her red coat walking the Great Wall.

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 30, 2009, 01:18:45 PM
TRAUD!  "we did not come to these shores until 1954. That's when we arrived in Washington, D.C. on a typically hot, humid July day, the likes of which we'd never known.

In  due time we became naturalized citizens and voters. My son was born in Washington.  We lived there and in suburban Virginia for twenty years,  until my husband's company transferred him to Massachusetts.  Again new roots to plant and nurture ... It was extremely difficult. "


TRANSITIONS!

Let's discuss the last chapter and FP's transitions.  Her husband, Paul, died and her relationship with her daughter was strained.

What did you feel about the decisions FP made in this chapter of her life?  How did she handle it? 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 30, 2009, 02:45:15 PM
Ella - you asked sometime ago what was controversial about the GI Bill, I think the only thing was how expensive it was going to be. I just mentioned it as a good - out of the box thinking - decision that HST  made and how important it was to the country's future. When i was in college '59 - 63 there were still vets in my classes who were using the GI Bill to pay for their education and to survive.

It's very interesting reading two books on the same subject, because of the different emphasis that the authors put on details, what they put in and what they leave out.  In reading about FP's offering her resignation to FDR in '44 and then to HST, Downey's book gave me a feeling that FP felt very unappreciated in all that she had done, and that was obviously real, based on the sources that KD had. On the other hand SEvern's book gives none of that. He writes in a very positive light. e.g. her posing her resignation in '44:
"She had long wanted to resign, and w/ most of the New Deal social legislation now an accomplished fact there were other opportunities she wanted to pursue in private life. She had been offered sev'l important positions outside the govt, others, that as one of her friends later said, "few women would have resisted." What ever the results of the coming election. Frances had made up her mind to quit when her third term in office ended."............She kept suggesting various replacments for her position"Meanwhile, Frances went ahead w/ her plans to leave. She confidentially told her frineds she would be quitting on Inauguration Day and informed the people close to her in the Labor Dept, so they could  make their own plans. She packed up her books and papers and ordered a thorough housecleaning of her office, even to having the carpets refurbished and some of the chairs reupholstered, so everything would be in shape for whoever took her place."After the last cabinet mtg FDR said "No, Frances, you can't go now." ........He....told her he knew what she had been through and what she had accomplished and that he was deeply grateful to her. .....She wanted to insist, but she couldn't."
Severn told of how she was feted by Labor Dept officials in honor of her 12 yrs of accomplishments and to pledge "our affectionate, loyal and active support in cont'd endeavors to achieve the purposes we hold in common. "

Severn wrote a similarly positive statement about her relationship w/ HST, saying that he did refuse her the postition of Soc Sec Admin because he wanted to reward a Dem pol, but again he wrote how much she enjoyed the position on the Civ Serv Comm.  There was none of the info about her successor at Labor pushing his way into her office before she had vacated it. The interesting thing was that none of what Severn said was probably inaccurate, the facts were true, but KD had FP's feelings from her research and it gives a completely different picture of her.......................just proves that we must read many sources and not accept the perspective of only one author or one source as the end all and be all of the story.....................jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 30, 2009, 04:50:51 PM
This has been a most informative and pleasant read.  Unfortunately, my book had to be returned to the library as other people were waiting for a copy to read.  It would be most interesting to discuss thoughts of those folks who waited patiently to read it.
 
I am now looking at "Tell Me a Story" by Don Hewitt and will see if that's as much fun to read and discuss later this year.  We will see!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on August 30, 2009, 10:21:19 PM
Just lost a long mail - too late to try and recap now ...
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 31, 2009, 09:20:34 AM
Interesting, JEAN, thanks!  KD referenced quite a bit from FP's book THE ROOSEVELT I KNEW, but also in the Notes  she had oral reminiscences.  Where did Severn get his material from?

Between your book and Bellemarie's book we've had different statements on a variety of issues.

We find FP teaching labor history and the New Deal legacy at Cornell in the chapter of TRANSITIONS.  Wow!  Who better to teach those subjects!

A couple of people she met there:

Paul Wolfowitz, a student  -     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Wolfowitz

Allan Bloom, a faculty member - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Bloom

Wolfowitz recalled - "It took a while to realize how astute she was, how sharp she was."

Isn't this interesting, a remark that leads one to speculate:  "Franklin Roosevelt would never be admitted to a first-class college today."
(pg.385)

He would no doubt, just hire a tutor and, later, someone to brief him!

However, history is kind, more than kind, to FDR; not a great mind, but a great leader.

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on August 31, 2009, 12:24:50 PM
Every discussion should have a footnote. Here's an attempt at one.

Page 398. 'And at Cornell Frances was truly mourned....A requiem mass was held at the Church of the Resurrection in New York City....It was hot and the thick smell of incense overpowered the little church.'

Bill Clinton came to town (Toronto, Canada) on Saturday to address a huge audience. He came directly from Senator Kennedy's funeral mass. He spoke for only 30 minutes, instead of the scheduled 45. The incense in the church had left him with a sore throat. Nevertheless the headline reads: Clinton wows audience.

I suppose we'll all remember Frances Perkins for different reasons. I feel that Kirstin Downey has been successful in showing what a complicated character FP really was. More complicated than the boss she served so loyally.

What a manipulator! And just look where she found how to. In GRACIAN'S MANUAL. One marked passage in FP's copy reads:

Page 386. 'Discover each man's thumbscrew. It is the way to move his will, more skill than force being required to know how to get at the heart of anyone; there is no will without its leanings, which differ as desires differ. All men are idolators, some of honor, others of greed, and the most of pleasure:the trick lies in knowing these idols that are so powerful, thus knowing the impulse  that moves every man: it is like having the key to another man's will, with which to get at the spring within,  by no means always his best, but more fequently, his worst, for there are more unholy men in this world than holy; divine the ruling passion of a man, excite him with a word, and then attack him through his pet weakness, that invariably checkmates his free will.'

What can one say to that! All's fair in love and war and POLITICS. FP was ruthless in her soft approach.

How interesting to read that FP was working on a biography of Al Smith at the end of her life. A commoner, just the opposite to the aristocratic Roosevelt. I think she loved the company of these tough men.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on August 31, 2009, 01:00:57 PM
Jonathon,
Quote
Bill Clinton came to town (Toronto, Canada) on Saturday to address a huge audience. He came directly from Senator Kennedy's funeral mass. He spoke for only 30 minutes, instead of the scheduled 45. The incense in the church had left him with a sore throat. Nevertheless the headline reads: Clinton wows audience.


I went to hear Bill Clinton speak when he came to my home town in Ohio back in Feb. before Hillay suspended her campaign.  I shouted, "Yes we will!" And he looked up and smiled, and said, "Yes we will."  Everyone near me started shouting...Hill a ry!!!  It went on for about 2 minutes.  He loved it!!  He is electrifying!  He has a common habit of going hoarse.

Oh how I would have loved to hear Frances Perkins at a rally.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on August 31, 2009, 01:01:15 PM
Again my apologies. I simply didn't have the strength last night to start over.  Here I am back, right under the wire.

Lots of thoughts came up and were shared in this excellent discussion, and also comparisons with politics and female politicians of today.  One picture of FDR's cabinet was especially telling: it's in the group following p. 112 in the book. FP is at the far right in the top row, standing proudly..  We must honor and admire her for her courage and perseverance.
It is eminently fitting that not one but two books inform us of her pioneering work.

In this fast-paced digital world of ours we are saturated with information around the clock -  much of it trivia IMHO. We live for the moment but with a large window to eternal youth thanks to Botox,  etc.   But man still makes the same mistakes over and over.  And yes, unfortunately, we have short memories.  That's why we need a wake-up call every so often to remind us that women can be as dedicated as men and are intellectually quite as capable. FP would no doubt be pleased that five decades after her death there're five women in the cabinet; several women in Congress; the memory of representative Shirley Chisholm; and two in the exclusive preserve of men - the Supreme Court.  

It was an arduous journey.  Women have broken through the 'glass ceiling', but it came with a price. As yet there's no full pay equity, and old prejudices still raise their ugly head.  I remember the struggle for the Equal Rights amendment (it passed in Massachusetts but failed nationwide).  Who can forget  the leading figures of the day:  Gloria Steinem,  Bella Abzug in her colorful hats that perfectly matched her vibrant personality,  and the ERA's most vocal and influential foe, Phyllis Schlaffly??  But the political landscape has changed, forever --  one would hope.   The opportunities are THERE for all women.  

What concerned us most when we came to this country was survival,  creating a new life in the face of adversity.. We had no political affiliation, how could we? We concentrated on the information in the papers. At first we puzzled about the meaning of the columns for "Coloreds". Yes, I figured it out.  We were horrified by the reports of  Senator Joe McCarthy's ruthless, intimidating tactics  --- that was OUR backdrop (!) but  hardly democracy at work as we had envisioned it.  We may be forgiven for expecting perfection  - which is elusive, of course.

In 1954, General Eisenhower was president.  Within two weeks I was fortunate to find a job  with a patent law firm as a  translator of patent applications in French, German (and yes, PatH, one in Spanish) into English.  To my surprise and, frankly, my discomfort, the only female attorney in the firm would discuss politics with me now and again, though I didn't have the slightest idea. I remember how anxious she was mulling over  the possibility that Richard Nixon's might  take over if Eisenhower's health made it necessary. Of course I realized how important this all was - but I had no personal connections as yet ad was hesitant to venture forth..  It took years before we became aware of the two major parties, how they differed and where the Commonwealth of Virginia stood.  :)

Pat H, re Team of Rivals.
I know, I know, I knew.  I tried to caution the group, but I never ever carry a big stick, never twist arms.  It all works out in the end, I found.  In this case, it already has :Ironically, the most enthusiastic supporter for choosing the book last June ("We have all summer," she said)  soon plaintively e-mailed the rest of us to say she found the book  "tedious" (!).  And the member who had suggested the book  declared herself open to a new choice.  Then, as the leader of the group, I decided that we should go forward,  come what may.  Our live meetings are always spirited -- this one may berousing  :D

Now I have to back-track to the post where there was mention of a comparison between FDR and Hitler ---- Hitler of all people.  Did I really reaed this or was it a chimera?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 31, 2009, 02:51:45 PM
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/perkinsfran/perkinscvr.jpg)

The Woman Behind the New Deal:
     The Life of Frances Perkins,
          FDR'S Secretary of Labor and His Moral Conscience

               by Kirstin  Downey


Links:
Frances Perkins Center (http://francesperkinscenter.org/)
Frances Perkins, Dept. of Labor (http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/history/perkins.htm)
Jane Addams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Addams)
[Frances Perkins Speech (http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=250364&ac=PHnws)

Discussion
August   l -  8    
August  9 - 15  
August 16 - 22    
August 23 - 31

Schedule
Chapters 1-9
Chapters 10-18
Chapters 19-27
Chapters 28-38

Discussion Leaders:   Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) and Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com)


Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 31, 2009, 03:13:37 PM
Ella - Severn's book was published in 1975. He has no footnotes on the pages, but his bibiliography includes FP's 2 books and sev'l books by other New Dealers, including Ickes; sev'l books by historians, including Robt Caro, Arthur Schleslinger and Joe Lash's book Eleanor and Franklin and Anna Roosevelt's book about ER. He also lists 9 articles by FP.

Trude - FT was an opponent of the ERA, as was ER for a long time. They were concerned that women would lose the privilieges of protective legistlation that had been passed by many states including limiting hours - it was women pushing for limited hours that initiated first a 10 hr day and then an 8 hr day - limited weight lifting requirements and barriers to women working overtime and over night. The proponents for the ERA pushed for many of the protections to be extended to men and argued that overtime and over night restrictions kept women out of higher paying jobs and overtime pay. ER eventually changed her mind and in the 60's became a supporter of the ERA.

Jonathan - i loved that Gracian quote also. It may tell us more about FP than anything else we've read, or at least about her philosophy of dealing w/ all those men so successfully.

I learned something from the Severn book that i didnt know before. He writes of FDR " He doffed his cloak as commander in chief ......................." I have seen many pictures of FDR in that famous cloak, but didn't know it had military significance.

Again from the Severn book that gives an entirely different mood to many events:

.....F wrote a letter of resignation to the Civ Serv Comm to which she had been appt'd in 1946, and told reporters, for the second and final time, that she was retiring from public life..........She was leaving partly to clear the way for Pres Eisenhower to appt someone of his own choosing as her successor, but she said she was also looking forward to resuming her career of soc'l service in some other field. .............but she had no intention of adopting a rocking-chair way of life. She smiled and added, 'How could i? I don't even knit.' .............But Pres E was in no hurry to replace her. Once again she remained in office while the pres looked for someone to fill her job. She stayed on ....for another 3 months. ......E finally accepted her resignation, w/ a letter expressing appreciation for her services.
..........when someone remarked that it was sad to see her go, since she was the last of the orig'l Roosevelt New Dealers to lv office, she answered cheerfully. 'It's quite an accomplishment to be the last leaf on the tree.' ..............she......turned to others ......as she was leaving, 'I'm grateful to God to have lived in these times.'
Reporters called attention to the fact that .... another woman, following the path she had broken, was starting her first working day as the second of their sex to become a mbr of a pres's cabinet, Oveta Culp Hobby, named by Pres E to be sec of the new Dept of Health, Ed and Welfare.
Much of the press joined in editorially wishing F well. 'FP, ....managed to ride out storms of abuse w/out losing her admirable sense of humor or her capacity for efficient public service,' the Nation said. ' Miss P probably had a clearer conception of the ND and was more unsellfishly dedicated to the achievement of its goals than any of her colleagues. The list of social achievements w/ which her name is associated si indeed impressive.....She has our best wishes.'
The NYT said,' After a notable half-century devoted to the public service....FP is opening a new chapter...Her interests have always been as broad as the social horizon itself, encompassing the welfare of women and children, minimum wages, safety in industry, care of the aged and problems of unemployment. We wish her well in the next phrase of her constructive career.'
........In June 1957, she visited her alma mater.......(to) receive and honorary degree of Doctor of Law to add to her collectioin of many honorary degrees. /color]
Just a little more............he writes  "Her research notes (on Al Smith) filled more than a thousand typed pages and she tape-recorded thousands of words of reminiscences that were deposited in the Comlumbia U Lib's Oral History Collection."  That was way beyond the amt of work I presumed she had done when reading KD's book.  
And finally, about her funeral and death  - ... the pres respresented by Sec of Labor Willard Wirtz (at the funeral) and Pres...Johnson, 'deeply grieved to learn of the passing of this great woman,' said, 'She was a pioneer in the field of human welfare and equal rts. Her selfless dedication to the sevice of others will always be an inspiration to people of compassion and good will.'
The natio has lost one of its first citizens.' Sup Crt Justice Arthur Goldberg said. 'Under her wise and inspiring leadership, the dept of labor came of age.'
To Geo Meany, head of the AFL-CIO, ' she was a great lady who served this nation and its workers at a time of grave nat'l distress w/ honor and distinction.'....... 'The good she did for millions of her fellow citizens stands as an enduring monument to her memory and there could be no greater memorial.'"  
This is such a more uplifting picture. Of course, it was important to read KD's description of her infirmities and her relationship w/ the young men at Cornell and Susanna's lack of concern about her mother
I don't know who first suggested that we discuss this book, I suppose it was Ella, but i send great thanks for whoever did. We should all know about her and tell others about her..............jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on August 31, 2009, 03:27:30 PM
Some of you know that for the last five years I have lived at a Senior's Apartment complex.  Last year we began a Reader's Theater projects doing 4 or 5 Plays a year.  Our current summer series was just completed  and pictures are now available on the Morningside Ministries Web Page at http://www.morningsidemin.org/Chandler/activities.html  (Just Click the preceding URL address).

If clicking it does not work Copy the following  http://www.morningsidemin.org/Chandler/activities.html into your Webb Browser's "Open Location" winddow.

The larger photo top right is a photostat of a large marque advertising poster of the cast showing their pictures about the age 30.  These are black and white gray scale copies.  The other pictures in color are of the cast in different scenes during a performance.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 31, 2009, 04:39:25 PM
BILL CLINTON CAME TO TOWN!  Still popular!  And won't it be interesting if Hillary ever becomes president?  What do you forecast for Hillary's future after her term of office as Secretary of State?

Thanks, TRAUDE, for the post, very intereting and you have done well to survive all those transitions.  Be proud of yourself!  Enjoy retirement and you have the best possible state for that purpose!

JEAN, gosh, I do hate to say good bye (for a short period anyway) to all of you and THE BOOK AND FRANCES PERKINS!

Those words that Jean quoted from the newspaper and various luminaries of the government said it well.  And now that Kirstin has written such a good book about FP we all will remember her, as well as others of that period.

She knew most of them, the ones in the news, both great and small.  As JONATHAN said  she enoyed the tough men and manipulating those in power.  She was a politician!  And a diplomat.

I visited my library this morning and brought home a book someone mentioned in one of own sites - HARRY TRUMAN'S EXCELLENT ADVENTURE: The True Story of a Great American Road Trip,  by Matthew Algeo.  Mentioned in the Preface was the fact that this man was the last president to leave the White House and return to something resembling a normal life.  No Secret Service, no office staff, no perks, to accompany him.

 And in the Postscript there is this: "Today an ex-president receives an annual pension equivalent to the salary of a cabinet officer, around $190,000.00.  He also gets money to pay for office expenses, staff salaries, travel and postage.  In 2008 the rent on Bill Clinton's office in Harlem alone was more than $500,000.  The total amount of money the federal governrnent spends on its ex-presidents has risen from $160,000 in 1959 to an estimated 2.5 million in 2008.  And that's not counting Secret Service protection which in 2000, when four formers were living, cost nearly 26 million dollars altogether.

We don't know what pension a cabinet officer gets today, but I know there is one.

Interesting the little hostility between Truman and Eisenhower on Inauguration day.

FP was working on a biography of Al Smith, as JEAN noted.  1000 pages!  Gosh, that's a lot and couldn't an editor work on it and publish it?  I'm going to look and see if there is one.

And Henry Wallace would be a good subject also, wouldn't he?

We've met so many fascinating historical figures in this book and in this discussion.

A discussion that has been one of the best ever on SeniorLearn!  THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION!

This site will remain open for a few more days if any of you want to follow up with comments.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on August 31, 2009, 04:41:17 PM
P.S.  Loved the pictures, HAROLD!  Great group!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on August 31, 2009, 05:18:12 PM
Harold, what nice pictures, and look at that handsome guy in the long sleeved white sweater at the top of the page - about 30, you say? ............looks like and active group............jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on August 31, 2009, 05:35:31 PM
A week or so ago, JoanK was telling me "I'm really dreading reading the last chapter--her husband is dead, she's estranged from her daughter, and things are going to get lonely and sad."  Not FP! She goes to Cornell, teaches a popular class, and plunks herself down on the top floor of Telluride House, otherwise populated completely by men in their twenties, who adore her and respect her and make a big fuss over her.  I love it.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on August 31, 2009, 09:17:21 PM
Telluride House?  Whoa!  My daughter is the financial manager in the Telluride office on the Cornell campus.  I was just up there about a year ago and enjoyed a lunch with my daughter and her friends.

I did question FP staying at Telluride House as when she was there, it was strictly a male abode.  But, I checked and she was there in '63 along with the only female to hold a lodging scholarship, Aryil Spivak,who had earned  her room.
I thought that I it was Paul Wolfowitz's sister, Laura Mary, who challenged that all male Telluride congregation and she became the first female to earn a room there. But, I think what I read may have said that she challenged the all male situation and when they changed to co-ed, she was the first female to apply. Sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on August 31, 2009, 09:19:14 PM
Harold, GREAT pictures!
When you mentioned the group here last year,  I contacted the director of the Council on Aging in our fair town, planting a seed, so to speak. The director has done wonders since she came (from NY) and initiated several well-attended new programs.  But I never heard back on the possibility of even reading a play, and it is not my style to push.  Needle-work and quilting classes are popular for those with nimble fingers (which excludes me), but I've never once seen a man at any of the gatherings I attended.  And there's no book group !!!  Apparently there's no demand.  Too bad.

I had to go back and I did find Jean's post # 375 regarding a book about similarities between FDR and Hitler.  Forgive me but I find the very idea appalling. Secretiveness is hardly a gauge IMHO.

Take it from me who lived there, there IS no comparison. Hitler was a monster, a mass murderer, the instigator of WW II,  and responsible for the loss of millions of lives in the Holocaust and in the war. Next to Stalin Hitler was a villain of the ages, and I'd be willing to refute any notion of similarities with FDR.

Ella and Harold, thank you for leading us so ably in this eye-opening discussion; it's another landmark for us.  And thanks in no small measure to the participants and their commitment.  Now, as the bard said " ... and parting is such sweet sorrow ..."
Traude
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Kirstin Downey on September 01, 2009, 12:41:12 AM
Hello, friends...I'm sorry I have not been able to contribute much to the discussion for the past 10 days. I am in the process of moving and many of my things are stored away. I have been unable to access the senior learn website on my laptop, and it has been hard for me to get to another computer elsewhere.

Thanks for all the great questions and kind remarks. Yes, as a matter of fact, the "FDR's moral conscience" line did indeed come from the marketing department, and it is likely to be changed for the paperback version of the book. The main title will still be "The Woman Behind the New Deal" but the rest will reflect more of her accomplishments, such as Social Security.

Frances Perkins certainly does deserve to be better remembered, and it is good for us all to be reminded. A man in Iowa had a party to celebrate the receipt of his first Social Security check, with a special toast in honor of Frances Perkins. That would be a great trend to get started!

I'd like to ask you all to check out the website of the Frances Perkins Center, in Newcastle, Maine. It's Frances Perkins's family homestead, and represents yet another way that people are honoring her memory. FP's grandson, Tomlin Coggeshall, is very active in the effort. They are eagerly looking for supporters of all stripes, and would be glad to hear from you. I am on the group's board of directors, and can tell you they are a wonderful group of people working to keep FP's legacy alive.

Thanks again, and I look forward to meeting some of you at the National Book Festival!

Kirstin Downey

 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on September 01, 2009, 08:34:08 AM
Kirstin, Thank you so very much for being a part of our group discussion.  We appreciate having you here, giving us an insight to the many areas only an author can clarify for us.  Indeed, I think it would be a nice remembrance to toast Frances for Social Security, especially today as it is being threatened to not exist in the years to come.  I only hope someone like Frances will step up and speak out to save this much needed program.  I have checked out the website and think this is a wonderful way to honor Frances Perkins and her accomplishments.

Good luck with your move, and hopefully all will return to normal for you.  Nothing I hate worse is when my house is not in order.  I will not be able to make it to Washington, but I will be with you in spirit.  Again, thank you for sharing your time and thoughts with us at Senior Learn.

Much gratitude,
Marie
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on September 01, 2009, 08:49:52 AM
Harold, how neat!  You all are an inspiration to seniors around the world, like Frances Perkins said leaving office as Jean provided us with, " but she had no intention of adopting a rocking-chair way of life. She smiled and added, 'How could i? I don't even knit.'"

Not that we all don't appreciate a good rocking chair every now and then, and I have knitted some pretty neat things for my children and grandchildren throughout my years, but.....I think your group gives new meaning to retiring.  Koodos to you all!!!
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on September 01, 2009, 01:20:03 PM
Just some quick comments: (yeah, i know, i seldom do "quick comments...lol) nonetheless, on pg 310 KD relates a conversation btwn FP and ER about FP's trying to get FDR's permission to retire and she asked ER's help. ER responds "Oh, but I don't get a chance to talk to him."  and then "I don't always get a chance to talk to him about anything serious,....it's sometimes as much as a week before i get in a word about anything that is purely business and not just personal matters such as 'Have you paid that bill?'" I laughed out loud! First because Doris K Goodwin said that ER seldom talked to FDR about anything BUT serious matters, which is why he preferred his cousins and friends at the end of the day, and that she sent him notes almost every night about serious things to consider. Secondly, does anyone believe that FDR was the one actually paying the bills?!? ....... having tho't longer about that response, i realized that i have never read anything about any recent president having an accountant, or someone who takes care of those things. But, wouldn't they? Do you think any of them, other than maybe Truman or Carter, paid there own bills?

And it was sad and a little humorous on pg 316: "F ...arranged the financial settlement btwn Susanna and David, which included a trust fund to gv S finanacial security. F negotiated the arrangement w/ David's MOTHER, Betty."...... Power to the MOMs.  :P

Another change of perspective for me - my impression was that most everybody was hearing about Pearl Harbor on the radio on Dec 7, but KD gives the impression  that hardly anybody was hearing that, especially gov't officials. We're so used to instant news these days that that seems improbable. I'm wondering if FP's comments in her book about FDR's demeanor that day was something she conjured up after years of hearing people question whether he knew about the attack. Perhaps her "memory" was enhanced by those discussions. I don't believe that FDR had any specific info. He obviously knew the Japanese were preparing for some attack somewhere, but i can't believe he would have let it happen just to get America into the war. I think serious research has shown that to be true.

FP's statements on pg 393 about banning of the Lord's prayer and Bible reading in the schools surprised me. She had apparently forgotten that there were students of other religions in public schools. She had always been such an advocate for individual rts, that i was taken aback by her statements in that paragraph and the last one: "It was incomprehensible to F to think of excluding religion from public life altogether, for it was her religious motivation - to do what Jesus would want one to do - that drove her and fueled all that she had done." Religion seemed to have undermined her usual logical, rational thinking and support of others who were not like herself. Religion was not taken "from public life," but only from the public schools which every child was required to attend if they did not go to private schools. I recall the one Jewish girl in my school leaving class during Bible readings and the L's Prayer and i can only imagine how she felt, or how other students may have perceived her. I was happy to see that policy change. ...............

o.k. i'm done...................loved it! Thanks Kristen Downey................Ella, Harold and all of you...............jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on September 02, 2009, 10:51:24 AM
I think that Frances Perkins deserves a great deal of the credit for the fact that we are now seeing an early positive response to the late 2008 -  2009 measures to stem the current 2008 economic crash.  This is because in 2008-09 Frances’s social Security, unemployment compensation FDIC bank account insurance, and other permanent 1930’s measures were in effect to provide instant first aid (safety net) for the rising army of unemployed workers.   Individual’s relief that in the 1930’s had to be thorough new legislation requiring massive new relief appropriations came automatically this time.  This enabled the Congress and the Executive to attack the new economic crisis directly with efforts to keep the banking and finance and overall business systems functioning.  Today there are signs that the economy is responding and the near decade required in the 1930’s to restore the badly wounded economy will not be required this time.  Again it appears that the permanent safety net provided by the 1930’s programs is making a quicker less painful recovery possible.  Time will tell.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on September 02, 2009, 10:58:22 AM
Kirstin , we thank you for being a part of our discussion, and in particular thank you for this book.  I have the Frances Perkins Institute Website listed in my permanent Bookmarks list.  We all wish you the best in the future and will look forward to your next book project.  
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on September 02, 2009, 12:12:51 PM
I would like to thank Ella and Jonathon on a job well done!  This group discussion was so much fun.  I learned more about FDR here than in all my years in school.  And for the first time ever, I learned who Frances Perkins was and what important role she played in implementing programs that are all advantageous to us today. Hope to see you all in a future group discussion. 
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on September 02, 2009, 01:54:58 PM
Once again, the hotshot team of Ella and Harold, with the super participation of a lot of interested and knowledgeable people has made for a great discussion.

Kirstin, thank you so much for your gracious participation.  It added a lot for us.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on September 02, 2009, 02:05:54 PM
Harold - re: post #413 - so true, too bad few people know they need to say "thank you Frances.".................jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Jonathan on September 02, 2009, 04:08:07 PM
Good. It's still open for posting. Thanks everybody, for your company in the reading of this book. Hasn't it been lively. And I feel there could be a lot more to say about how FP comes across in Kirstin's biography. She has convinced me that Perkins deserves credit for many of the New Deal measures. So why is it only passing references that she gets in most accounts of the times?

I also found interesting Kirstin's attempt to understand FP's personal life. Practically inscrutable. What did Perkins want for herself? Was she satisfied to be the great humanitarian? Her horizons were constantly getting broader. From wanting to do social work in NYC, and cleaning up the brothels in Philadelphia, she went on to Albany to work on a state level, and then nationally in Washington, and finally she dreamed of going world-wide, with the International Labor Organization.

I like the quote from the Severn book, in Jean's 401 post, in which FP is quoted as saying, I'm the last leaf to fall, ( from the Rooseveltian, New Deal crowd. The wonder is that she got up there. Wasn't she a climber. Do you all remember the time she was asked, do you have a gender problem, and FP replied, only when I'm climbing trees. So she made her life a metaphor.

The hard reality is somewhat less grand. She seems disappointed, even somewhat bitter at the end. She certainly soldiered on until the end. But she did not even have a place of her own, and was estranged from her daughter. What an irony. There was a time, when, with Susanna married:

Page 255. 'At last, Francis beathed a sigh of relief, knowing that her daughter was financially secure, settled, and travelling comfortably in the elite social circles that Frances herself had had to beach with cordiality and cunning.'

So, it wasn't easy getting as far and as high as she did. Was she always certain about where she was going, or did she occaionally pause to ask herself, what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul? As she did when she found marriage a real rut.

I can't get over it. Looking for a job at 77. There seems to have been no 'security' for our true heroine, until Cornell took her in.

Got another book for us, Ella?
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on September 02, 2009, 04:29:34 PM
Kirsten,
I can't thank you enough for appearing here and discussing your fantastic book.  Hope you are already starting another one.
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on September 02, 2009, 05:30:28 PM
"Inscrutable" -perfect word, Jonathan. You are right, i never quite figured out how she was feeling, even tho KD gave us many quotes from her. Maybe she felt so unappreciated because of all the chafing she felt everyday from not being one of the boys. ..............i started to say i couldn't figure out why she felt so negative, but then i realized that as i read the book my feelings rode the roller coaster of "how great that she's in such a powerful position, has the ear of the president, got so much done" to " oh my gosh, she has so many burdens, how does she handle it all?"..................it's very ironic that the person who honchoed the social security retirement program, felt as tho she couldn't retire!!!...............jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on September 02, 2009, 05:41:08 PM
I was just looking at the FP Center page. I have taken my books back to the library, so can't check this out myself - when was the Maine house sold, does anybody remember? Did she not have it when she left the gov't, I can't remember.........jean
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: ANNIE on September 03, 2009, 06:56:09 AM
Jean

Heres the link to the Frances Perkins Center but I haven't read it yet to see when and if she sold the house.  I am pretty sure it was gone when she started living at Cornell in the Telluride House but since it was a historical site in Maine, maybe she and her sister didn't sell it at all.

http://www.francesperkinscenter.org/

I love the picture of her sitting in a meeting with the sun shining on her, don't you?

Also, heres the link to the Women's Hall of Fame where my daughter spent a delightful afternoon back '01 at the center in Senaca Falls, NY.  Quite an eye opener.  Women have been involved in many discoveries about medicine but never given the credit.  I knew I had seen something about Frances in the near past and this must have been the place.

http://www.greatwomen.org/women.php?action=viewone&id=119


Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: Ella Gibbons on September 03, 2009, 09:27:25 AM
Frances Perkins - the tie that bound us together for a month.  I think our author, Kirstin Downey, best summarizes FP's life in the Prologue:

"She had changed her name, her appearance, even her age to make herself a more effective labor advocate."

"She had studied how men think so she could better succeed in a man's world.  She had spent decades building crucial alliances." 

"As her grandmother had told her, whenever a door opened to  you. you had no choice but to walk through it."

It was great fun discussing the book with all of you.  I hope we shall meet again soon in another nonfiction book discussion.

If you have ideas for a good book, post here:

http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=84.480

Thanks again to Kirstin Downey for joining our group and we all wish her the very best in the future!

Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on September 04, 2009, 10:27:19 AM
Here is an interesting last minute comparison of the careers of the current Secretary of Labor,Hilda Solis with Frances Perkins in the 1930's.  Actually Solis's road to the Cabinet Labor post appears quite different from Frances's path.  She rose quite rapidly; her route seems much more through elective political office, School Board  & House of Representatives.  Her political strength came through Hispanic and environmental issues .  Click the following for a Wikipedia bio sketch,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilda_Solis
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: HaroldArnold on September 04, 2009, 10:47:00 AM
I want to thank all the many seniorslearners who hav participated here.  It is you who have made this board an outstanding success.   Please continue your reading interests and stay in touch by following and participating in the continuing nonfiction board at http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=84.480
Title: Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
Post by: BooksAdmin on September 07, 2009, 11:19:46 AM
Thanks, Ella and Harold, for a good discussion.
This discussion is read only and has moved to the Archives.