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People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/peoplebkcvr.JPG) | You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath, Geraldine Brooks' edgy Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work. How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 14th century?
The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then, into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way. This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain. |
Discussion Schedule:
July 15-19 #1 ~ Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
Sarajevo, 1940
July 20-24 Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
Hannah, Vienna, Spring '96
July 25-August 3 Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
Hanna, Boston, 1996
August 4-August 8 Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
Hanna, London, Spring, 1996
August 9-August 13 White Hair, Seville, 1480;
Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996
August 14-18 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
Hanna, Gunumeleng, 2002
August 19-August 23 Afterword | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmapsm.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmaplg.jpg)
(click twice to really enlarge)
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Topics for Discussion
July 15-19 ~ Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
Sarajevo, 1940
1. What is your opinion of Geraldine Brooks' protagonist from these introductory chapters? Do you know people like Hanna? Is she believable? Likeable?
2. Why was Hanna Heath chosen from a pool of more qualified conservators to prepare the Haggadah for exhibition?
Do you think she differs from most conservators who consider their job "merely technical?"
3. What are some of the possible reasons Hanna's hands were shaking as she waited for the book to be brought to her in the bank vault?
4. What facts do we learn about the manuscript's appearance in Sarajevo in 1894? Does it appear to have been a legal sale to the museum?
5. Why does the UN want to put it on display as soon as possible in 1996?
6. What do you remember about the book's appearance when Hanna first sees it? Will she rebind the book as previous conservators have done? How does she see her job as a conservator?
7. Is it remarkable, miraculous even, that the manuscript is in such good condition considering the conditions in which it was stored and the way it has been handled?
8. Is there reason to suspect that the manuscript was illustrated by a Christian illuminator? But what is it about the Seder illustration that Hanna finds perplexing?
9. What remarkable discoveries does Hanna make in the manuscript's binding? Why does she believe that the haggadah has been in the Alps at one time? Do you think this is all fiction?
10. What do we learn about the attitudes of the Sarajevo natives during the war from Ozren when he takes Hanna to dinner in the Old Town? Why does he reject the second opinion Hannah offers him to see if anything can be done about his son's head injury
11. What purpose does Lola's story serve? What did you learn of ethnic relations in Sarajevo in the 1940's?
12. Can you tell which characters were were real, which were fictional? Serif Kamal - the Muslim who saved the Haggadah from the Nazis? Dr. Josip Boscovic, the museum director, who turned it over to Kamal? Do you think the name of the person who saved the manuscript in 1992 is known? Do you believe that the 30 year old kustos, Ozren Karaman is a fictitious character?
Relevant Links:
Geraldine Brooks - Background information (http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s2446434.htm); Sarajevo Haggadah (http://www.haggadah.ba/); Early Haggadah Manuscripts (http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html); Illuminated Manuscripts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09620a.htm); Brief History of Illuminating Manuscripts (http://www.historicpages.com/texts/mshist.htm);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com ), & Traudee (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
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The day has finally come! What a great big enthusiastic, diverse group we have gathered here! Surely this will be a rich, rewarding and enjoyable discussion! How can it not be? Commendable how you have kept quiet about the book during the pre-discussion until now. If you were not around for the pre-discussion, know that there is much valuable information there concerning the situation in Sarajevo now and in the past. There were also many posts about haggadot. You might want to use the site as a reference - or you can ask again here. We now have some very knowledgeable posters on these matters.
The author is travelling abroad - Germany right now, on an international book tour, but will try to respond to questions we will forward to her by email - through her publisher. We'll keep the questions in a link in the header here and forward them to her each week. We'll try not to repeat questions that have been answered in interviews elsewhere - will make every effort to keep this list brief. Will you bold your questions in your posts so we don't miss them?
Finally, you'll find a schedule in the heading at the top of each page. We ask that you keep an eye on the dates and chapters and try not stray into the next chapters in your comments, as some of us have not read the book beforehand. No one wants to be a spoiler, we know that - but it can happen if we're not careful.
Again - a great big warm Welcome to everyone! We're off!!!
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And WELCOME again. This is an absolutely fascinating book, and we have a great group here: it should be a wonderful discussion. So prepare to go through space and time, through the worlds of books, of medicine, of art, of Jewish history and the histories of at least three nations and four centuries, as well as drama, mystery and romance. What more could we ask for?
Well, maybe something to drink and munch on while we talk. We will start out in Sarajevo, where we are told our heroine, Hannah, drinks beer and eats "cevapcici": a kind of sausage that "can be found on nearly every corner" in Sarajevo (according to Wikopedia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cevapcici (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cevapcici)
I hope you haven't eaten. Even if you have, pull up a chair and dig in.
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Good morning, everyone!
Thanks, JoanK, I'll skip the sausage meat :D . . . and progress to the meat of the book.
Hannah seems to be the perfect choice for exploring the Hagaddah. She's competent and also young enough to have personal adventures, i.e. romances, as they come about. She's also young enough to have an active, interesting mother.
So from the point of view of the novelist, she can take part in multiple subplots.
And from my viewpoint as a reader, she's most complex and interesting. What a book!
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Q.1 I found Hanna entirely believable. I like it when people can become so
engrossed in their work that they shut out everything around them. I've
been known to do that myself.
Q.2 Do most conservators consider their jobs merely technical? Don't they get
excited when a rare and valuable object comes to their hands? I suppose some
could come to the work sinply as technicians, but one would think a love of
antiquity draws most people to the field.
Of course Hanna drinks beer, JOANK. she's an Aussie, isn't she?
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marking
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Quote from Babi:
Of course Hanna drinks beer, JOANK. she's an Aussie isn't she?
There's one misconception I can clear up right now - I know there is the perception that all Aussies drink beer from dawn to dark and no doubt there are some elements in the community who would do just that given half a chance but there is no 'of course' about it - I'm an Aussie and I don't drink beer nor do most of my female friends and family members. Not all of the men do either. My personal preference is for wine and on occasion I'm rather partial to a good liqueur, but beer? NO!
Beer has always been a popular drink with both sexes both here and elsewhere so Hanna's enjoyment of beer is not unusual but her preference for drinking it straight from the can or 'tinny' is somewhat exceptional. In Australia most women would prefer to drink it from a glass unless the occasion or situation precluded that.
Q.2 I rather think that conservators who regard their job as 'merely technical' would be given the more mundane work associated with conservation and certainly would not be chosen to handle priceless artifacts such as this Haggadah.
Why was Hanna chosen from a pool of more qualified conservators?
Hanna was given the job over others more experienced in the field simply because her country isn't perceived as carrying the baggage others do. Australia does not have age-old religious and racial conflicts and lies outside the northern hemisphere's political arena so Hanna is seen as being uninvolved and inoffensive to all concerned parties.
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We've prepared well for this book; at last it's Opening Day, and we are free to let fly !
Lots of good questions to ponder.
The core, the inspiration, indeed the very heart and soul of this story, is the Haggadah, of course. But it is immediately clear that Hanna Heath will play a vital, even decisive role. Her work has been commissioned by the UN, which will pay all expenses. She is going to work under a deadline and, after a first day of meetings and introductions with many cups of Turkish coffee, she is ready and anxious the next day. But there's an unexpected delay in the arrival of the artifact. More coffee, one imagines. No wonder her hands shake (Q. 3).
At last the sealed box is brought in, the seals, tapes etc. are removed by a thin young man who, it turns out, is the Muslim who had saved the precious Haggadah. Is is a relatively small book, a family prayer book, as Hanna realizes immediately. It is kept under lock and key at all times, except when she works on it. And when she does, a room full of guards from the UN and the bank stand watch. She soon forgets they are there.
We also notice that Hanna does not have an exactly loving relationship with her mother. Unresolved issues seem to be the reason. It will be interesting to watch this particular thread.
I think Hanna is believable((Q. 1), clearly an expert in her very special field, and well respected. She is candid, comes straight to the point and, no doubt, does not suffer fools gladly. She can be abrasive, as we see in the first chapter. For now I'm holding back on "likable"
;)
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Having read this book two times my initial impressions of the setting and the characters are colored. I did find Hanna likeable from the first and her assignment as conservator of the Haggadah was logical given her professional associations in the field. Both her nationality and her beer drinking are also logical; Oz is exempt from much of the baggage which affects Northern hemisphere politics and religions, and beer drinking is a characteristic of her age group, most colleges are fueled by beer it seems. What a thrilling ride we are embarked on!
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I can't help but feel sorry for Hannah. She is an emotionally detached 30 year old wreck of a woman giving her love and attention to "the flesh and fabrics of pages." Inantimate love does not a life make....
Remember the handsome, botanist boyfriend that told her "her attitude to sex was like something he'd read about in a sociology textbook " from the 60's? He said she was like a prefeminist male, acquiring partners for casual sex and then dumping them as soon as any emotional entanglement was required."
Now how many men do you know that would even GET that? (she should have stuck with him.)
Isn't that sad how closely she resembles her mother whose main focus is her skills in neurosurgery, not the emotional welfare of her daughter. They are both brilliant women in their own right but have neglected their "inner beings".
The mother is top notch in her field and yet fails drastically as a close confidante. I feel sorry for both of them, irregardless of how qualified they both might be.
Hannah has a traveling scholarship! I cannot begin to imagine what benefits that would bring a brilliant young girl.
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The story of the death of Ozren's wife and the disabling of his young son is just horrendous. I can't imagine the thought of the person behind the rifle simply shooting her while she stood in the water line. Then shot her again while she lay bleeding, the bullet piercing his son's skull. What kind of person would shoot at an innocent mother and her baby? Could he/she possibly have thought that this person was the enemy?
I've never seen war, have never known anyone who fought in one, so I'm pretty naive about it. And just reading about it in history books doesn't make one emotionally entangled with it.
I was caught up in the Vietnam War because my husband and I were stationed in Germany just before it escalated. When the Vietnam Wall was erected in Washington, D.C. we went to see if any of his buddies had been lost in the war.
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Marking my place.
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I tried to post this this morning, but couldn't get into the site:
I think beer drinking is supposed to be characteristic of Sarajevo. Remember, the brewery is the one thing that didn't shut down during the fighting.
Beer and sausages sounds too heavy to me, too. What do you all suggest.
Meanwhile, I was fascinated with Hannah's description of how she goes about her craft. Scraping out the isides of cow's insides. Making all the materials that she will be working with. To someone who is not a craft worker, it sounded right. Do you all agree?
I was also intrigued by her descriptiion of how she does her work. This book is both a work of art and an historical artifact. Looking at it as a work of art, she would want to "restore" the stains and imperfections left by time. but that would destroy its history. She chooses to preserve, even celebrate the history, sometimes at the expense of the beauty of the paintings.
Of course, that is the basis of the book. What a fascinating premise, to take each stain or artifact as a clue to the book's journey. But in general, what do you think? Is there a conflict between celebrating it's history and celebrating its beauty?
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Meanwhile, I was fascinated with Hannah's description of how she goes about her craft. Scraping out the isides of cow's insides. Making all the materials that she will be working with. To someone who is not a craft worker, it sounded right. Do you all agree?
I absolutely agree. Hannah has essentially undergone a mini-apprenticeship, which means she knows the issues involved in making such a manuscript. This enables her to understand details that would otherwise be unnoticeable. It's useful both in ferreting out the history of a document and in detecting fakes, plus, if you have done such a thing yourself, you have a fellow feeling for the creator of a manuscript and can interpret it better.
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"You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath, Geraldine Brooks' edgy Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work."
Hmmm, perhaps "love" is a strong verb to use describing our Hanna. After all, why should we love her when no one else seems to. Andy sees her as an "emotionally detached 30 year old wreck of a woman giving her love and attention to "the flesh and fabrics of pages." Can you believe her mother? Will she ever learn her father's identity? (I hope not!) Not that she is complaining, or even seems to notice. Is this altogether believable? I'm hoping to see more character development as we get into the story. Traudee, I agree, she can be abrasive...though I find her somewhat refreshing - I have a few friends like Hanna.
Mippy sums her up - "competent, adventuresome, complex and interesting." So, we'll use her as our competent guide - for the time being. Babi, I envy people who love what they do - totally engrossed. But we need to see her come up for air at some point, don't we?
Oh good, we hear from Gum, under the leafy trees of Perth, sipping her...lemonade! hahaha, it's so good that we are getting this straightened out from the git go. Hanna and Geraldine Brooks are from Sydney - and drink beer - from "tinnies"- - is this our first Australian term?
And she's got this plum job working on the Haggadah simply because Australia doesn't have enemies. I don't know about her qualifications, Jackie - she is quite young for this all-expense paid trip to sunny Sarajevo, isn't she? Hasn't she just turned 30? JoanK reminds us of her skills scraping the cow's intestines to make - parchment, was it? She was thorough, PatH, but still, she is so young - and there are probably more seasoned conservators who would love to get their hands on the Haggadah.
I'll bet there is a fair amount of jealousy in world of conservation! Or not? Maybe no one wants the job?
At least we are confidant in her ability to work on this antique manuscript! More importantly - so is Hanna! Why are her hands shaking?
JoanK - you just reminded me of the photo of the brewery Frybabe found - I think it's in the pre-discussion. Maybe she will bring it here again. It seemed like the pride and joy of the town - maybe I'm being flippant.
Margie, we're keeping your chair warm for you - Callie's too!
Jackie, you've read the book twice! You'll probably note things we miss the first time around! Good to have you with us to color in the lines.
Aberlaine, most of us have never seen suffering like this. I think that Geraldine Brooks' assignments to war zones as a reporter - including to Sarajevo, must have made such occurances routine - although I guess you never get accustomed to it.
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I see Alf is still making a lot of sense (but I didn't doubt that).
I can't help but feel sorry for Hannah. She is an emotionally detached 30 year old wreck of a woman giving her love and attention to "the flesh and fabrics of pages." Inanimate love does not a life make....
Isn't that sad how closely she resembles her mother..
I wonder if we'll hear more from her mother? Somehow I think not. I just finished the prescribed sections and will adhere to the schedule to see how that works (it's been some while since I read this way.)
I'm guessing that one major theme that GB wishes to focus on is the very real ability of diverse people's to live in harmony. There are/were pockets of harmony in various parts of the Eurasian land mass that existed for many decades and generations. That was all shattered in the aftermath of WWII. I'm not satisfied that GB is off to a good start making her case, leaning too far in one direction, too soon. But we'll see.
What kind of person would shoot at an innocent mother and her baby?
Ethnic cleansers.
Two problems for me so far. One minor: I thought GB telegraphed the insect wing a bit heavy handedly. Munib is at work when Stela, Habib, and Lola enter. A short while later...
As a child entered carrying a tray of tea, one small piece of butterfly wing rose on the slight breeze from the open door and fluttered to rest, unnoticed, on the haggadah’s open page.
This didn't even escape my meager attention to clues and details.
The other a bit more disturbing, right out of Bodice Rippers 101:
The tips of his fingers glistened with the lamb grease from my cheek. I brought them to my lips and licked them, slowly, one by one. His green eyes regarded me, asking a question anyone could understand.
Yeah. I think we get the answer too!
X-POST w/JOANP
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so who is the movie star who is selected to play the part of hannah?
as for the mother's choice of father for her, I'm thinking about selecting for brains however she did it.
Hannah speaks of her cowardence. Evidently fear is the only strong emotion she allows herself to feel. Alf has it pegged. old manuscripts don't expect anything from her that she doesn't already know. Rather than viewing them as simply a technical challenge, she gives them life with her imaginaion as to their history and their origins.
some life.
I can appreciate that having used my own art and music interests to escape the harsh realities of daily doings. It works . . . . sometimes.
claire
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Ok, back by popular demand - the brewery.
http://img3.travelblog.org/Photos/30960/156393/f/1129306-Sarajevo-brewery-0.jpg
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thank you frybabe
I saved it. what a wonderful old building. I'm glad it survived.
claire
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Stuck within the binding of the Haggadah, Hanna finds an insect's wing, a white hair, a stain and an inscription. She also noticed that the clasps were missing and there were channels in the board edges.
When Hanna brings the piece of the wing to an entomologist she knew, the entomologist identifies the butterfly and tells Hanna that these butterflies are only found in high places, like the Alps.
Is this fiction? I think so. I don't think there's any evidence that these items were found in the Haggadah.
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No offense intended, GUMTREE. I confess to a perception, doubtless from
my reading, that beer is a very popular drink in Australia. Beer is also
a very popular drink here in Texas, but I don't drink it either. I drink
diet Dr. Pepper, Sierra Mist, and iced tea when dining out. Exciting, huh?
I enjoyed the descriptions of how a conservator handles a fragile book,
the care that is taken. I liked Hanna's awe and respect for the book and
her intense care for it.
ALF, I had the impression that the botanist boyfriend ended that
relationship, for the reasons you quoted. Sticking with him wasn't
her choice, tho' from the nature of his complaint, she probably
would not have in the long run.
As for the mother, I am detecting a contempt for her daughters choice
of career that is, IMO, totally unjustified.
CHAZZ, I think that bit about the butterfly's wing is well aheaad of
where we are now.
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One of the questions that I asked in the pre-discussion was WHY did they dub her a conservator instead of a restorer? I thought that restoration sounded so much more meaningful but I guess that I was wrong. Pg. 17 answers my own question:
"To restore a book to the way it was when it was made is to lack respect for its history. I think (Hanna) you have to accept a book as you receive it from past generations, and to a certain extent damage and wear reflect that history. "
Is that semantics or what? It is still a restoration of an article. Doesn't every article have a history? Wouldn't one automatically realise the history as they delved into the restoration process?
I was thinking along the line that a conservatorship implies guardianship usually a legal guardianship.
Whatever---- sometimes I get hung up on the craziest of thoughts.
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You're right Babi, the botanist guy dropped her like a hot potato. She should have mended her ways then. ::)
I loved her quick retort to said botanist, didn't you?
"If I wanted a partner, I'd join a law firm."
Now you've got to admit that was a good one. It cracked me up but no-- she wants a relationship that is light and fun. Join the circus Hannah.
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I liked the materials part but was left wondering what kind of paint was used since in that period I don't think OIL was common. previousy fresco on walls and tempra . . . eggs . . . .on wood paels. now parchment may have required something oily. just wondering. this is my field.
I have some rounds of goat skin that I used when making ceramic drums, wetting to stretch and then mounting on pots and tying down. I would have just used my acrylics to paint on them but didn't feel the need to do that since the pots were decorative in themselves. hmmmm??
as for the love story. it wasn't necessary but probably helped to sell the book.
the islamic peasant women wore long skirts but what did they wear on top???.
dumb little questions I know but on rereading this I notice different things than I did the first time. i.e. the writing style seems to change when in lola's world. it really is from her point of view rather than hannah's... simpler, less description.
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Claire, I bet we could find out something about the kind of paint used at the time - with some research on the actual Haggadah. Didn't GB mention something about lapis lazuli crushed into the paint for the blue? I remember thinking the paint had to have some consistancy to support that - and guessed oil. Will you talk a little about eggs and how they are used?
The cow's stomach - was used for parchment then, not gold leaf? I got that all mixed up as I read it.
I agree, a love story would help sell the book, the movie too. But if we're going to have a love story, I want one that is satisfying, don't you? Oh and no, the actress with the film rights is not Jennifer Anniston. ;)
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Chazz is here this morning - and PatH too! We are so happy and fortunate to have you join us. Welcome!
Charlie, we need to underline a comment you made - and keep it foremost in our minds.
"One major theme that GB wishes to focus on is the very real ability of diverse people's to live in harmony."
I'm guessing that the unity was compromised after WWI when the ethnic cleansing begain in Yugoslavia - and then "shattered" after WWII. I too hope that GB doesn't overlook the whole picture as some critics have intimated. It's early in the book, as you say.
Babi - GB has included the episode describing the insect's wing's wing landing in the open haggadah page in "The Insect Wing" 1940 chapters as we see the last of Lola. Aberlaine believes the whole thing is fiction - the butterfly wing, the wine stain, the hair. I'm okay with that. But what did you think of the inscription? Either it's in the Haggadah, or it isn't. What do you think?
Claire, you seem to understand something about Hanna we haven't talked about. Her fear. Will you expand? I think you are referring to her fear of committment, but not sure. She's not shy, she doesn't show fear as she licks Ozren's fingers - (thanks for reminding us of that rather bumpy scene, Chazz.) I do understand what you are saying about how she buries herself in her work to avoid...what? Loneliness?
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Andy, you bring up interesting points on conservation of old manuscripts. Do you see Hanna regarding the hair and the butterfly wing as part of the book's history? Did you notice whether she left them in the book, or removed them? Will she put them back? (Do you regard this as GB's fiction?)
I cringed as she cut the strings that bound the book together and put new ones in. Were'nt they the work of another conservator - long ago? Aren't they part of the book? Did she save them for analysis? Did you think it was odd that she was replacing them with seemingly little interest in the old ones?
Frybabe - thank you for retrieving the Sarajevo brewery...unscathed after all the bombing and unrest in the city. I'll bet everyone involved held it in reverence!
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Cutting the strings weithout remorse, since these were strings apparently proviede by the same person who bound the haggadah in ugle cardboard covers, why bother? Just as antiques which have not been stripped of the signs of wear are worth more so is the Haggadah. After all, five hudnred years have passed since its creation. I can't separate my knowledge of Hannah from those first impressions you all have noted. The ways we can spoil are sly and sneaky. Sorry. I'm trying to get the book back so I can proceed at your pace instead of relying on my feeble memory.
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Alf
Your point on restore and conserve is well taken.
But linguists are sticklers and often finicky. Like me.
There is a distinction between those two verbs, as shown by the prefix re. In "REstore", as in REturn, REpeat, REcover, REthink etc. the prefix indicates a turning back to a previous (or the original) condition/position.
Medieval castles along the Rhine have been restored and have become modern hotels; dilapidated farmhouses in Tuscany, Umbria and in Provence were rebuilt into fancy modern residences (seeUnder the Tuscan Sun).
"Conserve" is synonymous with keep (up), protect, preserve.
Finis.
Hanna Heath is not only preternaturally skilled but she is that rara avis = the unique person who goes beyond skilled mending and seeks to get access to the unknowable history of a manuscript, which GB does so effectively here. Imagine the extent of her research!
JoanP, in re your last Q.
People of the Book is a work of fiction, we are told. The codex is authentic, mercifully no longer hidden away but accessible to all mankind. However, the characters in the book, including Hanna and her mother, are fictional, I believe.
Note: "siege" is correct, "seige" is not. A minus for the last proofreader, or final editor.
Sorry, I'm posting this in fits and starts. Had workmen here and they're just leaving.
Charlie, how very good to see you here. Welcome back !!!
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The book hasn't "grabbed" me yet, but I'm only thru the first section.
I'd be more interested if this were nonfiction. Can't say I'm particulary interested in the detailed fictional history of an old book.
As for Hanna, she's fairly interesting. I don't think she's particularly likeable, but at least she has a wry sense of humor. She seems older than thirty.
One of the first questions I had was why didn't she wear plastic gloves when doing her work, since she mentions how weathered and old her hands look.
Another question I had was why the U.N. would give a rat's about an old Jewish book.
I am wondering why the author had her get involved sexually with the museum director right off the bat. Is this supposed to make the book more interesting?
Marj
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Someone queried whether the inscription from the censor from Rome was real or fictional - it's real...
The Bosnia and Herzegovina Commission to Preserve National Monuments has a rather long document relating to the Haggadah which includes this extract:
It (Sarajevo Haggadah) was in Italy in 1609, as evidenced by a manuscript note by a censor from Rome: "Revisto per mi Gio.Domenico vostorini 1609" on page 105 (Sarajevo Haggadah, 1999, page 105).
The document is long and could contain spoilers for our story -
http://www.aneks8komisija.com.ba/main.php?id_struct...
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I read somewhere that due to the influence of a high ranking UN official Geraldine Brooks was able to watch the real life conservator at work for two full days. GB appears to have adhered to fact as much as possible in regard to the work done by the conservator who according to this news item was Andrea Pataki
A team of international experts, led by Andrea Pataki, a restorer of the Austrian Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna carried out the restoration.
Pataki, who has worked with rare manuscripts in Israel and the United States told the Sarajevo newspaper The Balkan Times that she mainly had to repair or stabilize the 19th century binding and the end papers.
"I checked under a 25X microscope and I didn't see any flaking or powdering of the pigments," Pataki told the Balkan times. "The overall condition is very good for its age."
Pataki said she also did not want to do anything to remove the wine stains and other signs that bear witness to the Haggadah's use at the seder table.
"That's something you never touch - it's part of the book's history," she said.
http://www.ujc.org/page.html?ArticleID=26866
Winsumm: The fact that the actual restorer found there was no flaking or powdering of the paint suggests the artist used either an oil (a bit early perhaps) or the egg tempera which is very long lasting.
Traude: Interesting that the real life conservator is actually a restorer ? ???
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about the medium used for painting. I think it must have been egg tempura this is how we did it.
I forget how we did the gesso although do remember rabbit glue and much rubbing in between layers for a smooth finish
about the egg. we used the yolk which is oily itself. the egg in my left palm, my right hand delicately picks up the yolk by its membrane holds it over the pallet and pricks it letting the insides drain.
the pigment has been ground first in a little water and is now ready to use with the egg yolk.
we did it in transparent layers which helped the light to come through the molecules and made for brilliance. the end result was satiny and smooth.
claire
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hannah is afraid of airplanes, pulls the shade down to avoid seeing how high they are.
she is direct about her appitites as in eating and sex where she has some control, but speaks frequently about her nervousness in facing the task and the people connected with it. She forgets her fear as she works with her materials and does her job.
so her job may be working for her in other areas too, where ever she lacks control and feels inadequate. as in dealing with her mother.
claire
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GB in an afterword tells us that all the people in the story are fictional, and especially that the real restorer/conservator is nothing like Hannah.
I think you all are too hard on the character of Hannah. It is plausible that, given that her only childhood relationship was her cold one with her mother, that every attempt for love or understanding from her was rebuffed, that she would be terrified of any emotional commitment. The unrealistic thing to me is that she would open up to Ozren so early and so completely. A little awkward plotting here, but let's not condemn Hannah for it. In Hannah's defense, maybe she recognizes Ozren as a kindred spirit.
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I just remembered something additional:
separate the egg and discard the white
move the yolk in its membrane back and forth between palms to dry it
then it is easy to pick it up by its membrane and poke with a sharp instrument.
got it. it has been a while.
claire
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I find Hannah believable, but she is so prickly that I don't think it would be easy to like her.
Thank you, straudetwo for the explanation between restoring and conserving.
winsumm Thanks for that explanation of egg yolk used as a medium for painting.
I also don't understand why the author had Hannah jump in bed with Ozren just about as soon as she met him. I feel this is unrealistic of a smart, brainy, well educated woman who has traveled so extensively. She lives a solitary life and should be used to being alone in a strange city.
Also, I can't resist...about the beer, I LOVE an occasional Shiner's Bock. A regional beer from Texas. ;)
All of your posts are very thoughtful and I am re-reading the pages with new eyes.
Evelyn
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JoanK I agree that we should not be too harsh on Hanna.
It was I who said in my # 7
"We also notice that Hanna does not have an exactly loving relationship with her mother. Unresolved issues seem to be the reason. It will be interesting to watch this particular thread" .
But that was I said.
We just began yesterday. More is bound to come up in the relationship between mother and daughter -- it's inevitable. In fact, it has already started:
By forging her mother's signature on an obliquely worded request, presumably for a second opinion, the headstrong Hanna manages to extract information about Ozren's son from the hospital, behind Ozren's back, and takes it with her to London - where she and her mother might meet (!!!)
I too agree that the scene in the restaurant is too much to soon, and the plotting a bit awkward, as JoanK suggested in her # 34.
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hannah is in the first person and lola in the third. This is probably the structure throughout, as if hannah is telling us lola's story and also all the others as suggested by the items she has found in the manuscript. it is an interesting way to cover a lot of territory.
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CHAZZ, I think that bit about the butterfly's wing is well aheaad of
where we are now.
Actually, it's the very last page of the first section(s) on the schedule.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/peoplebkcvr.JPG) | You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath, Geraldine Brooks' edgy Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work. How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 14th century?
The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then, into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way. This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain. |
Discussion Schedule:
July 15-19 #1 ~ Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
Sarajevo, 1940
July 20-24 Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
Hannah, Vienna, Spring '96
July 25-August 3 Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
Hanna, Boston, 1996
August 4-August 8 Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
Hanna, London, Spring, 1996
August 9-August 13 White Hair, Seville, 1480;
Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996
August 14-18 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
Hanna, Gunumeleng, 2002
August 19-August 23 Afterword | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmapsm5.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmaplg5.jpg)
(click twice to really enlarge)
|
Topics for Discussion
July 15-19 ~ Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
Sarajevo, 1940
1. What is your opinion of Geraldine Brooks' protagonist from these introductory chapters? Do you know people like Hanna? Is she believable? Likeable?
2. Why was Hanna Heath chosen from a pool of more qualified conservators to prepare the Haggadah for exhibition?
Do you think she differs from most conservators who consider their job "merely technical?"
3. What are some of the possible reasons Hanna's hands were shaking as she waited for the book to be brought to her in the bank vault?
4. What facts do we learn about the manuscript's appearance in Sarajevo in 1894? Does it appear to have been a legal sale to the museum?
5. Why does the UN want to put it on display as soon as possible in 1996?
6. What do you remember about the book's appearance when Hanna first sees it? Will she rebind the book as previous conservators have done? How does she see her job as a conservator?
7. Is it remarkable, miraculous even, that the manuscript is in such good condition considering the conditions in which it was stored and the way it has been handled?
8. Is there reason to suspect that the manuscript was illustrated by a Christian illuminator? But what is it about the Seder illustration that Hanna finds perplexing?
9. What remarkable discoveries does Hanna make in the manuscript's binding? Why does she believe that the haggadah has been in the Alps at one time? Do you think this is all fiction?
10. What do we learn about the attitudes of the Sarajevo natives during the war from Ozren when he takes Hanna to dinner in the Old Town? Why does he reject the second opinion Hannah offers him to see if anything can be done about his son's head injury
11. What purpose does Lola's story serve? What did you learn of ethnic relations in Sarajevo in the 1940's?
12. Can you tell which characters were were real, which were fictional? Serif Kamal - the Muslim who saved the Haggadah from the Nazis? Dr. Josip Boscovic, the museum director, who turned it over to Kamal? Do you think the name of the person who saved the manuscript in 1992 is known? Do you believe that the 30 year old kustos, Ozren Karaman is a fictitious character?
Relevant Links:
Geraldine Brooks - Background information (http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s2446434.htm); Sarajevo Haggadah (http://www.haggadah.ba/); Early Haggadah Manuscripts (http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html); Illuminated Manuscripts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09620a.htm); Brief History of Illuminating Manuscripts (http://www.historicpages.com/texts/mshist.htm);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com ), & Traudee (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
Hi, everyone. I am just starting our book. I am confused..... I thought that I was to wait to begin eading it until the 15th. Instead, should I have been reading this section prior to our start date? So, that I would have been ready to discuss it on the 15th?
Thanks,
Sheila
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Hi there, Sheila! Glad you made it. Start reading! ;) The schedule up in the heading is a DISCUSSION schedule only - NOT a Reading Schedule. We are asking folks to keep an eye on the discussion schedule, not to give away any surprises - to people like you who haven't read the chapters yet!
Charlie, you are showing admirable restraint - we know you haven't hop the train for old Vienna yet...
Oh, golly, Marjifay - I still haven't stopped laughing! Would you like the task of preparing Discussion Questions for the heading! You're a riot!
There's something to what you say about a nonfiction account of the Haggadah travels. Do you think there is enough known information for a whole book? I keep looking for the actual facts - now JoanK has peeked ahead to the Afterword and let out the fact that this is all fiction. That doesn't stop me from looking for known facts, though.
And I haven't given up on the fiction aspects of the story yet. I like it that Hanna has a sense of humor - that makes up for the abrasiveness, don't you think?
One of the first questions I had was why didn't she wear plastic gloves when doing her work...
A good question Will we see plastic gloves before the book is over?
Another question I had was why the U.N. would give a rat's about an old Jewish book.
Now this one I think we can answer - does anyone want to take a stab at it? Why is the UN in Sarajevo in 1996?
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how about Julianna Moore???
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Allow me to follow up and correct what I said in my # 37.
When Hanna left Sarajevo, she did not go to London directly but took a detour to Vienna to see her old friend Amalie Sutter, hoping that Amalie could identify the wing and the insect. Amalie did have the answer.
She established that the wing was that of a butterfly from an alpine region.
That is confirmed in the episode The Insect's Wing.
Traude
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What this book is:
Zany; both the author and her protagonist have a wonderful sense of humor
Well researched; as with the best Dick Francis, Diane Gabaldon or Luke Jackson, one is soon immersed in the arcane language of another profession (or two).
And, as with the Hardy Boys, the first chapter ends on the edge of an intriguing mystery (if only Grissom were still with us).
What this book isn’t:
A probing analysis of the human condition. If one hasn’t yet read the best books—Of Human Bondage, For Whom the Bell Tolls, The Human Comedy, JR, or Instance of the Finger Post, there is still time to read them first.
Although, come to think of it, there is a suggestion in the opening chapter that love is more than sex.
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Although, come to think of it, there is a suggestion in the opening chapter that love is more than sex.
Zany - that's huge, isn't it?
Traudee, I'd forgotten Hanna's quick trip to Vienna when that insect's wing was identified. Can anyone find a picture of that Parnassus butterfly? Is that what I see spread all over the cover of my book?
Not, yours with the deep cleavage, Gum...resembling the actress that will play the Hanna role in the upcoming movie. (No, not Julianne Moore, Claire. All I'll say - some have not formed a mental image of Hanna yet - is that this actress really fits the Hanna in my mind - her face is now Hanna's...)
Gum, fascinating information you brought here yesterday. So, the inscription dating the book to the Inquisition - is not fiction - is actually in the manuscript.
And we have the name of the actualy conservator in Sarajevo now!!! Good work! I found this - to add to the information that Geraldine Brooks had actually sat in while the work was being done on the book - for two days! The conservator must have been as annoyed a16288169s was Hanna Heath with the large number of people intruding on her work. This from an interview with G. Brooks -
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GB: Oh, it was wonderful. Very few people at that time had actually seen this book. It had been locked away in safes for a couple of centuries. So to be able to actually spend time in the room with it was marvelous. But it was very dramatic -- it wasn't like any other book conservation job, because the Haggadah was under intense guard. Things were still very unstable in the city; the room was full of Bosnian police and Secret Service guys as well as U.N. soldiers. It was kind of a crazy scene, with this woman at the center of it who was the conservator.
I got to watch her do her very painstaking work, and as she was working I noticed that she was punctilious about looking in the binding for any speck of matter. When she did find something -- she thought it might be a breadcrumb -- she was very excited. She said, "A chemical analysis of this could tell us so much," and she put it in a little envelope. That gave me the structure for the novel. I thought that my fictional conservator would find artifacts in the binding, and that those would be the vehicles to enable me to jump the reader back in time. And I knew that the reader would find out how that thing got there, while the conservator might or might not.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/bn-review/note.asp?note=
Back this afternoon ...following a trail of breadcrumbs you leave in each post...
- In the meantime, can anyone respond to Margifay's question - - why does the UN care about this old Jewish book?
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There seems to me a distinct difference between 'conservator' and 'restorer',
ALF. The restorer attempt to restore an object to its previous perfection.
A conservator preserves the evidence of it's history, and seeks only to
prevent further deterioration.
JOAN & CLAIRE, I found this on doing some research prior to the discussion.
Parchment is a thin material made from calfskin, sheepskin or goatskin.
Its most common use is as the pages of a book, codex or manuscript. It
is distinct from leather in that parchment is limed but not tanned,
therefore it is very reactive with changes in relative humidity and is
not waterproof. The finer qualities of parchment are called vellum.
I'm not sure if Hanna is afraid of commitment, or just fiercely independent.
I would imagine she had to be not to be cowed by her Mother. Hanna makes
this statement: “…don’t rely on some other sod for your emotional sustenance.”That sounds like 'tough gal' material, but it is true. It's not fair to place the responsibility for your own happiness on someone else's shoulders.
MARJIFAY, I think the Sarajevo Haggadah had been a symbol of unity and
community pride in the past. The U.N. was involved in the hopes of encouraging
a return of that unity and sense of community in a very unstable area.
Sorry, CHAZZ, my bad. (See how modern I am. ;) )
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Believe it or not, I had trouble finding a decent picture of a Parnassus Butterfly. I am not sure this is the Parnassus we are looking for; this is a Parnassus Apollo. Notice the near translucent wings. Very pretty. http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3295/2604447782_1d01a4cf9b.jpg
Zanybooks, what in intriguing title, Instance of the Finger Post. Never heard of it. I will have to look it up.
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re oz and the second opinion: there is an old saying hope springs eternal
until there isn't any
so he really didn't want to know what he probably felt was true. And besides he liked Winnie the Pooh himself.
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Off Topic - Isn't Instance of the Finger Post a mystery by Iain Pears - he also wrote The Immaculate Deception et al.
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frybabe nice work researching. thank you. . . claire
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Winsumm I hate to tell you this but I know who the actress is. I remember reading about it some time back but couldn't think of who it might be - today it suddenly came to me. But I must heed JoanP's warning to let everyone form their own idea of Hanna - So for now my lips are sealed.
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I am slow in getting here but am behind in reading too.
Claire, that was a wonderful description of how you did egg tempra. I really enjoyed reading that post of yours. I have studied so much about how it was made but have never seen anything before written that makes it so clear as to how it is actually done.
Joan Grimes
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I agree with JoanG. That was intewresting. Fascinating to speculate about the generations of artists who developed/discovered these techniques.
Why didn't she use rubber gloves? Everything I know about conservorship(?) is by watching shows on TV, such as History Detective. There they explain that professionals are divided about gloves. Some feel that they are necessary, others that they do more harm than good, and should not be won. Too bad GB didn't discuss this point, but Hannah is following some precedant in not wearing gloves.
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Claire, it was great to read the description. Am I right in assuming you have to go to such pains to get only the interior of the yolk because the membrane makes lumps in the paint?
Hannah is willing to re-sew the binding because the old threads are so worn they are about to break, but it's interesting she is willing to go so far as to mend the endpapers with wheat paste and bits of linen paper.
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Yes, Gumtree, "The Instance of the Fingerpost" is a mystery by Iain Pears. I started it, and it looked promising, but it was obvious I was going to have to keep a list of the many characters or get hopelessly lost, and I wasn't in the mood to do that at the time. I'll get back to it some day.
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Thanks, Joan P, for your comments on my post. I know why the U.N. was in Sarajevo -- to try to stop the slaughter among the warring ethnic groups in Bosnia and Herzegovina of the former Yugoslavia -- but I still can't see why the U.N. would have been interested in spending money to save and preserve that old book.
I've just started an interesting book being read in another group that goes into the history of that area of the Balkans, beginning with the Ottoman takeover in the 14th century -- THE BRIDGE ON THE DRINA by the Nobel Prize winning author, Ivo Andric. I bought it when the U.S. was over there fighting one of our myriad wars, along with some help from the U.N. Someone said that you can't understand Bosnia politics until you read that book.
Another very interesting book I read about this area was BALKAN GHOSTS by Robert Kaplan. And Kaplan recommended another book, Rebecca West's BLACK LAMB AND GREY FALCON, part travelogue and part history, written on the eve of WW2.
I'm really more interested in the history of the region than in a book, although Brooks' story did get better in the second part about Lola.
Marj
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Something we shouldn't overlook is that the manuscript itself is a real character in the novel. It has a definite power, to capture the imagination and make people risk their lives for it. So far, Ozren, Serif Kamal, and Josip Boscovic have all done this, and I'm guessing that Gio. Domenico Vistorini, in Venice in 1609, was another. I'm also guessing that if any one of us held the book in our hands instead of looking at the two-inch square reproductions we would feel its power too, and be tempted to take risks for it.
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"Why does he (Ozren) reject the second opinion Hannah offers him to see if anything can be done about his son's head injury?"
I don't know what Brooks means to be the reason, but I do know that coming to terms with a damaged or handicapped child is a very tortuous emotional process. There are different stages of denial and acceptance, and if someone approaches you on a level you have passed, or haven't yet reached, you can have an almost frantic reaction to what they are saying. Hannah is offering Ozren something that, at the moment at least, he isn't equipped to handle.
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Oh, FRYBABE, it is beautiful! It certainly looks like it would match the
fragment found in the book.
PATH, you may be right about the reason for Oz' reaction to Hannah's offer.
My own reaction was that he would have already explored every avenue and knew it to be hopeless. I think Hanna wanted to be the rescuing angel here. Then, too, she has been raised to think her Mother can do miracles. I can't really blame Ozren for being somewhat offended by her assumption that he hadn't done everything possible already.
On a lighter note, I love the directions to Amalie Sutter’s office:
“..take the elevator to the third floor, follow the skeleton of the
diplodocus, and when you reach the jawbone, her door is on the left.”
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Sorry to be so late in arriving in this most interesting discussion. Have been out of town and did not return until late last night.
So many comments on different parts of our first assignment!!
And the pictures and other links brought here are definitely adding to the book itself. Aren't the brewery and the butterfly just beautiful? The transparency of the delicate butterfly wings and solidity of the brewery building, hmmm, does that have a meaning for Serejevo? Maybe That the people of Serejovo are a very strong people in spite of the delicacy or fragility of their country's problems.
Are we still guessing on the movie??? I would choose Meryl Streep as the owner of the movie rights, but Charlize Theron as Hanna!
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While searching for maps of Yugoslavia before it was split up, I came to this page about the Italian peninsula of Istria which was annexed to Yugoslavia sometime between 1938 and 1948. Quite a nice page with pictures of Istria and map of the peninsula. I don't know why this interested me so much, but it does seem strange to tell the Istrian people that they are now Yugoslavians when before they were Italians. Also with this link one can trace the other annexations that were accomplished in that period. Seems like it was so common for the people of these countries to be switched around without a "by your leave" or anything else. Of course, if you read "1918" which is about you can see where it started.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Istria#Maps_.2F_Cartes (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Istria#Maps_.2F_Cartes)
Here's another link to the new Serbia established in 2006, I believe. They lost Croatia which was their link to the Mediterranean. If one scrolls down to the map and reads the text that is there, one can get an idea about Serbian independence.
http://www.ifri.org/files/CFA/Serbia_Conference_Belgrade_Note_final.pdf (http://www.ifri.org/files/CFA/Serbia_Conference_Belgrade_Note_final.pdf)
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I wasn't satisfied with just giving you all a picture of Parnassius. I didn't have my book with me at work so it was the best I could do at the moment. It turns out that the previous posted photo is a related but not the exact one. Here are pictures and more information about the SPECIFIC Parnassius mentioned in the book. http://en.butterflycorner.net/Parnassius-mnemosyne-Clouded-Apollo-Schwarzer-Apollo-Le-semi-apollon.377.0.html
What interested me was that in the book Amalie Sutter (entomologist) claims that it is common throughout Europe. The information I have seen so far on the real deal says it is rare.
Going to check out your links now Adoannie.
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Welcome back, Annie! Hope you had a lovely trip. You deserved the break! The maps indicate the sliding borders in what was once called Yugoslavia - meaning "All Slavs" - so much unrest and realignment in its borders since WWI, did you know there is no longer such a place called Yugoslavia?
Frybabe - you are as careful as the entomologist, Amalie Sutter - narrowing the Parnassius butterfly to the Apollo. Isn't it amazing what can be learned from the markings of a tiny wing? An interesting question - is the Apollo common or rare? Maybe it's rare, but common in the mountains?
I'm going to step outside the fiction now and say that I am really curious about the little item that resembled a breadcrumb that Andrea Pataki, the real Haggadah conservator found in the binding - was it really a breadcrumb? How old was it - after closer examination? Remember we can send questions to Geraldine Brooks - would you care to ask her about this? Please post in bold anything you would like to ask her.
PatH - I like to think of the haggadah as one of the book's characters. Don't you wish it could speak? I suppose in some ways it does.
"Hannah is willing to re-sew the binding because the old threads are so worn they are about to break, but it's interesting she is willing to go so far as to mend the endpapers with wheat paste and bits of linen paper." PatH
Pat, I'm wondering what she did with those threads. Weren't they a valuable part of the history? What about the ugly cover that had been sewn on to the book? Did I read that it was cardboard? I can't seem to find a photo of the little book - it was small, wasn't it? a bit larger than a paperback book? Can any of you find anything about the appearance of the book - and that ugly cover? If it was so bad and cheap, why not change that out too?
Marjifay has questioned the UN interest in this little old Jewish book. Well, one reason is that the UN is acting as the peacekeeper in this troubled area. Another might be that the little book is quite valuable - an estimated worh of $700 million in US dollars in 1991. I read this in Wikpedia when looking for a picture of the haggadah - I guess you can take that information with a grain of salt - but it was a valuable little book in Sarajevo's collection.
Are there any hints about whether the valuable book is in Sarajevo's museum legally? There is so much art hanging in museums all over the world that had been looted during war time.
JoanG - are you agreeing with Claire that the long-lasting paint used in the book is egg tempura? It would be great if we could find some scholarship that described the book - I'm sure there must be some somewhere on the wide, wide, net. I think it's a miracle that the book - and the paint - survived for so long under the conditions in which it was stored. Who knows, maybe the metal box was just what it needed to preserve the illuminations? ;)
Let's talk more about the Sarajevans - about Ozren and his attitude towards outsiders. Perhaps that would help us understand why he would continue to read to Alia and deny him a second opinion which might help him. Claire, maybe you're right - maybe he'd rather not know for sure there is nothing that can be done for Alia. Maybe he thinks if he keeps reading to him, he can cure him.
PS - not Meryl Streep - or Chalize...Gum, your restraint is admirable!
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Oh yes,JoanP. I definitely agree with Claire that the paint is egg tempera.
Joan Grimes
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Claire
You're no longer e-accessible. Hmmm.
Missing you, T.
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Well I am here but don't think I have anything to add . I have become immersed in this story I read the information in the back to see how much was REAL and what was the authors imagination . My feeling as to why the book is so important .. it is about a people who have had much of their history destroyed ...and not my nature but by man ...I think the author has done a remarkable job in writing and find myself reluctant to stop ..back later
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Good morning, Anna - it is good to hear from you.
"[the book] is about a people who have had much of their history destroyed."
What you just said is important to remember - that GBrooks spent time in Sarajevo during the Bosnian war - the 1990's - and knew the attitudes of the Sarajevans first-hand. Ozren is a fictional character yet, but fiction based on knowledge of these people, who have lost so much during the war. Ozren his wife - and it looks as if he's lost his only child. I sense that he is weary of the war, the occupation and now the peacekeepers too. He wants no more outside intervention - even doctors who might be able to do something about his son. I think he's given up hope, but wants to cling to the life that is left in Alia.
I think he represents the point of view that peace would return if only the outsiders would leave - the different ethnic groups got along before - and could do so again. I wish I had his optimism.
The story is engrossing - on different levels, isn't it? There's Hanna - a fictional character, representing the actual conservator who is as interested in the book's history - just as we are. Then there is Lola's story prior to WWII and the realization at the library in Sarajevo that the Jewish book will either be destroyed - or stolen by those who realize its value.
Then there's the mystery of what really happened to the book. I find that part fascinating - and that's what I look for as I read Geraldine Brooks' fiction - historical fiction. I'm interesting in the "historical" part of her fiction.
What did you all think of Lola's story? What part did it play in the story? Was she a believable character? It will be interesting to compare her to the other fictional characters Brooks has created out of whole cloth in other historical periods.
JoanG, wouldn't it be interesting to learn if other illuminated medieval books were rendered with the egg tempura paint - perhaps that explains why they lasted as long as they have. Is this medium still used in artwork? If it is so long-lasting, then I would think it ought to be!
Traudee, where is Claire - I missed the "inaccessible" part? I'll bet she's out looking for the name of the actress that will play Hanna...
Have a super Sunday, everyone!
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Charlize Theron! Now there is an excellent choice, ANNIE. She could
certainly play the role beautifully.
That whimsical...say rather, idiotic...redrawing of the map of Europe
gave rise to so many major problems. I cannot imagine how those 'world
leaders' thought they could so breezily alter peoples lives and histories.
Still a gorgeous white/gray butterfly, FRYBABE. Thanks for finding 'the
real thing'.
On Lola, I wondered why Lola? Why is her story central here? Her only contact with the Haggadah is the fact that she was in Serif Kamal’s home when he brought the book from the library for protection. Serif Kamal would seem to be the key figure here. Maybe her presence will become important later
on, but right now she seems irrelevant.
I had to look up a couple of terms to better understand the background.
Ladino: a Sephardic language also known as Judaeo-Spanish
Svabo…the Yiddish speaking Jewish immigrants.. better educated, rising to higher level in society
See, I always thought of the Sephardic group as being the better educated
and higher in status socially. Now I'm going to have to explore this a bit more.
(sigh)
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After the brilliance of the first chapter, the poorly-written, sloppily-edited outline that formed the second was a total letdown. Chapter 1 provided immediacy; the reader felt she was there looking over the protagonist’s shoulder. In Chapter 2, we are told about events, we don’t experience with them. In the opening chapter, the author appeared to empathize with her characters, not so in Chapter 2. (The one exception being the historically-accurate account of the Soviets telling the hard-working Lola and Isak to get lost, they weren’t needed any more.)
The dialog is unbelievable. Take the lengthy speech of the 10-year old at the foot of page 61, ending “He must take me now, because here there is nothing but death.” The details are unbelievable. Take the “rich” lamb casserole, the starving children were served on page 62; they’d have thrown it all up in an instant. As for the “near-vertical rock face” on page 63, it may have been steep, but absent professional climbing gear I don’t think near-vertical is likely.
Much of the text, reads more like back-cover copy than POV descriptions. I can hear Geraldine chanting as she typed, “Got to get through this, got to get through this, get on to the good stuff." I felt much the same way and finished the chapter out of a sense of obligation more than any actual desire to do so.
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JoanP
Claire was "inaccessible" yesterday because her e-mail address in her profile is hidden and I couldn't recall the one I had. That's why I brought that here.
It is not exactly easy to follow the ambitious path GB has taken in this book, alternating as she does between Hanna's professional trip to Sarajevo in 1996 to work on the Haggadah, and the circuitous travels of the codex itself over "way stations", told in self-contained chapters. While the dates of these way stations are documented (e.g. Venice 1609), the protagonists in these stories are the author's imaginary creations.
Are the characters portrayed in the separate stories credible? Why not? GB must have thought so!
I believe we must assume that the focus of the story IS the Haggadah, and that Hanna's personal story is merely the frame. In that case it stands to reason that the "way stations" have the same weight and significance as Hanna's personal story, and quite possibly carry more weight, because the codex endures; Hanna was merely the instrument.
It is important to remember that the war in Europe began on September 1, 1939. Lola's story takes place in wartime, not prior to it. As for the purpose of including this story, I believe GB wanted to explain what happened in and around Sarajevo at that time. An essential part were the Partisans, rag-tag bands of nationalists, some of the Communist persuasion, fighting behind enemy lines, often right under the noses of the Nazis. A man nicknamed Tito was their founder. He became Yugoslavia's leader in 1945 at the end of the war.
GB makes an important mention in this chapter : the emerging hope of young Jews to find a new homeland in Palestine and the beginning of immigration.
GB has a talent for describing characters, their appearances, quirks and mannerisms. The abundance of adjectives sometimes perhaps a bit de trop.
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the first chapter in the first person pov is more intimate because it shows while the second in the third person pov tells. the old maxim show don't tell works very well here. a good teaching tool for a creative writing class here.
traude I'm here... this is really the only discussion I follow right now. The bookies are interesting people.
claire
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sense of obligation with Lola's story. I did too but mostly because of the trials and tribulations she and the others endured. I found myself going right along with that mule and the tragic end to principal characters upsets me.
claire :'(
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gum and joanP
I would like to be able to visualize hanna as well. right now she looks like my daughter dark straight hair and a sensative face. don't keep me waiting too long. I won't be able to switch gears.
claire
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I found the second chapter perfectly believable, and it held my attention well. Yes, there are some slips: the rock face probably only seemed vertical, and any mule worth its salt would have given a novice like Lola a harder time than Rid did, but it captures the desperation of the fleeing Lola very well, and it further brings out some of the main themes—the many relocations of the Jews (and the Haggadah too) as they are chased and expelled by their persecutors, the kindness of strangers of good will to unfortunates of a different faith or ethnicity, and the remarkable ability of the book to survive and inspire people to risk their lives for it. And, as Claire points out, the battering of Sarajevo and the early stages of the emigration to Israel.
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my e-mail addresses
for personal is with g-mail and regular is with cox my isp
31328csr@gmail.com
winsum19@cox.net
I don't know why it is hidden but gliches happen so here are both of them.
I just visited my profile and didn't see a place for my e-mail since I'm not at any of the ones suggested. but I did put in a picture now about five years old.
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I thought the alternation between Hanna's story and the Haggadah's story was very effective. Using the third person distances us from it and makes it less real, more fancifu, which suits perfectly IMHO. While the trials of the Haggadah and its protectors are horrific they take on the aura of myth. Hanna is hard-edged, almost brittle, switching from her professional personna to one who's a victim of her mother's coldness and distance. Her romantic fling with Orzen was predictable because she is seeking to fill the vaccuum, greedy for the emotions of her partners since she knows not how to feel them herself.
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Claire
Thanks so much for the e-mail addresses. Have duly recorded them.
LOVE the pix.
:)
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While the trials of the Haggadah and its protectors are horrific they take on the aura of myth.
RIGHT ON, Jackie! That's just how I feel. In fact your whole post expresses my reactions better than I have.
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I am very pleased to be following the discussion on this book. I spent much time before it began in Internet research and feel it has enriched my understanding of the Haggadah, of which I knew nothing before this book selection. Within that research I found the name of the actress who has acquired film rights to this book. Whether she is planning to be the actress lead in the movie version or not, remains to be seen. She could be considering the role of Director. If it will not be a "spoiler" for you to know, I place this link for you to explore...or not:
http://www.geraldinebrooks.com/
Thanks to each of you for insightful and meaningful comments on this book, I am in the process of reading, so will continue to follow and enjoy all the comments.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/peoplebkcvr.JPG) | You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath, Geraldine Brooks' edgy Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work. How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 14th century?
The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then, into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way. This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain. |
Discussion Schedule:
July 15-19 ~ Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
Sarajevo, 1940
July 20-24 ~ #2 Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96
July 25-August 3 Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
Hanna, Boston, 1996
August 4-August 8 Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
Hanna, London, Spring, 1996
August 9-August 13 White Hair, Seville, 1480;
Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996
August 14-18 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
Hanna, Gunumeleng, 2002
August 19-August 23 Afterword | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmapsm5.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmaplg5.jpg)
(click twice to really enlarge)
|
Topics for Discussion
July 20-24 ~ Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose; Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96
1 . Has the big question ever been answered as to the whereabouts of the Haggadah during World War II? Why was it said that the person who hid the book was a Nazi conspirator?
2. Do you know if there are actually archived records of conservation work done on the Haggadah in Vienna at the end of the 19th century? Has anyone examined archived records of the conservation or is this all fiction?
3. How does Hanna's mentor, Werner Heinrich, explain the clumsy binding that was put on the Haggadah in Vienna? Why does he suspect a "sinisnter" reason?
4. What do we learn of the Kohen family who brought out the manuscript to sell it in 1894? Where might the manuscript have come from before the family owned it?
5. Is there a reason the chief archivist in the Vienna Archives is portrayed as a hip, very young woman? What is her silver-studded nez retroussée?
6. . What bit of informatilon does Hanna learn from the description of the clasps that were on the Haggadah when it arrived in Vienna? Did the conservators intend to replace the old clasps as they did the binding?
7. What did you think of the portrayal of Florien Mittl, the bookbinder and his doctor, Franz Hirschfeldt? Did they convey a feel for the atmosphere in Vienna in 1894 - the artistic, the social scene?
8. What do you understand by the term, Judenfresser? Why does the doctor, Franz Hirschfeldt believe the German Nationalists will want to remove Jews before the Muslims and other exotics who have been flooding the city in their effort to reduce foreign influence?
9. Did you cringe at the idea of the priceless old book in the hands of this man with failing skills in his grimy apartment?
"Judging from the clasps, the book must have had a remarkable binding once." What do you think was the inspiration for he description of the silver clasps Florien Mittl removes from the book?
10. What does Hanna find in the third file containing the the Frenchman, Martell's report on the matter of the clasps? What did he do with them? Was there evidence on the actual haggadah that clasps were missing? Were there actually notes in Vienna dating back to the restoration in 1894?
11. Do you think Hanna's mother would rather not see her daughter at all, or is she simply that absorbed in this conference? Were you prepared for her quick prognosis regarding the condition of Alia's brain?
12. Hanna hopes that we are all destined to look like Razmus Kanaha after a millenium of intermixing? What is she really saying here? What does he find intermixed in the wine sample that Hanna has brought to him?
Relevant Links:
Geraldine Brooks - Background information (http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s2446434.htm); Sarajevo Haggadah (http://www.haggadah.ba/); Early Haggadah Manuscripts (http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html); Illuminated Manuscripts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09620a.htm); Brief History of Illuminating Manuscripts (http://www.historicpages.com/texts/mshist.htm);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com ), & Traudee (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
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Not my idea of a Hanna.
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Welcome, besprechen, fellow discusser! I hope you will come in with any comments you choose, big or little, but if you look and don't say anything that's good, too. I'm glad you said hi, though. I think we are all learning a lot of different things from this discussion.
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Willkommen, Besperchen! I'd like to echo Pat's greeting -( her German is more extensive than mine.)
Jackie, I thought the actress a perfect Hanna! Perhaps because I knew her name, her face, before I'd formed my own mental picture. I had been waiting to hear that Sheila had caught up before mentioning her name.
Do you assume that having film rights means that she will play the part?
I thought that was a very helpful and interesting observation - yes, Hanna's first person narratives are more accessible, more "intimate" as Claire put it, than the third person description of Lola's experience. BUT, by keeping us at the third person distance, her story does take on a mythical quality.
I agree with you, Zany, I thought Lola's pages were a bit long - a good editor ought to have seen that, I felt. I thought the episode was important because it showed that the traditional friendly relations among the races had endured in spite of the occupation, even when threatened with death. The Muslim family could have lost everything keeping Lola in their home.
Babi, I'll wager that we won't be hearing anything more from or about Lola as we move back in time - to Vienna. I Perhaps Lola was "central" only in relation to the Kamal family and the hiding of the Haggadah. Can you explain "a Sephardic language" for us?
Claire - your email address can be found by clicking your name on one of your posts - and then scroll down under your name in the Profile and your address appears there. It's been there all along... Well, does your daughter look like the actress, Claire?
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I don't know who the actress is but my daughter has long dark straight hair and a sensative face. i.e. Oz idea of a madonna.
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Ok, it's officially the 20th here. Waves of the Danube cake: http://germanfood.about.com/od/baking/r/donauwellen.htm
I really needed to share that. Looks yummy!
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lets see if this works. . . .
(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/artetal/laura-1.jpg)
not an actress person. . . . a real person . . . . laura
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A wonderful way to begin the week and the period in the history of the book - what a lovely Hanna, Claire! I dunno, what do the rest of you think? Is she a bit too "sweet"? The expression in her eyes a bit soft and vulnerable to play Hanna, perhaps. Can makeup overcome that sweet expression?
Here's a favorite quote from the actress who has the film rights to Hanna -
"I'm more insecure than I ever let anyone know, sometimes you protect yourself with this kind of armor that people see more than they see you."
By the way, this same actress has acquired film rights to play Susan Boyle in an upcoming movie...
In this next section we get to know Hanna's mama a bit more - no wonder H. feels the need for armor when the two meet. I'm not sure there are mothers like this one.
A "sweet" way to usher us into Vienna, Frybabe. Have you tried it? If I had an hour and a half, I'd attempt the
Danube cake myself. Will file the recipe, though. In September we will travel in Munich, Prague - and just maybe Vienna. Already I dream of cake like this - and the bier..
Before we begin, I'd like to ask you all a question? Have you read the "Afterword" located in the back of the book? We've had it scheduled for discussion at the end - after we've discussed the rest of the book. Those of you who have finished reading the book - will you look it over, please, to see if there are "spoilers" for those of us who have not yet finished? Do you recommend that we take a look at it now - before we have finished G. Brooks' story? Why is it an "afterword" do you think? Won't go there unless you reassure that it won't give away too much.
Today - we catch the train for Vienna - 1996...
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JoanP, I just can't see our mystery actress as Susan Boyle. I know she has bought film rights to our book, but will she be playing Hanna?
Sadly, I rarely do any baking anymore. I used to reserve Wednesdays, when I was an at home housewife, for baking bread. I loved decorating cakes, but didn't like eating all that sugar in the icing. Once upon a time I had the time. Well, I could have some time now if I weren't addicted to this computer ;D
I haven't finished reading this section yet so I better get cracking. BTW, I looked up Arthur Schnitzler - not at all something I'd want to read.
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JOANP, the term "Sephardic language" came up when I looked for a definition
of 'Ladino'. It was a Jewish/Spanish dialect. Sephardic Jews are the Jews of Spain, Portugal, North Africa and the Middle East and their descendants. They
were orthodox in their beliefs.
The silver clasps must have been very beautiful. The chapter title, "Feathers and a Rose", is obviously a reference to the clasps, the “flower enfolded by wing” motif on the clasps. And yes, I was alarmed at the idea of this book
being in the hands of this desperate man. The description of society in Vienna at the time is decidedly decadent. Apparently mistresses were the custom of the day, and I would guess that VD was rampant.
The silver clasps were sold by the books binder, to pay for an expensive and dangerous treatment for his advanced social disease. They were to be made into jewelry for a man’s wife and mistress. How will Hanna ever find that out?
What are the chances of finding any one of those pieces of jewelry?
I am enjoying Brooks insertion of quaint vignettes into the stories.
Note the lengthy, scrupulously polite interchange between the early German telephone operators. They seem to be taking up most of the allotted time for a call for their own courtesies. (Surely people must have complained.)
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Well, the book and GB are now directing us back to Hanna and her visit to Vienna, a stopover for her, as she revisits her old professor, Werner Maria Heinrich,or as she was directed to call him, Herr Doktor Doktor Heinrich.
She fills us in on how she became his apprentice after her undergraduate degree was finished. Seems like she was just one determined young lady. Freezing in the cold weather she had not dressed for, she is taken in by Doktor Heinrich. He couldn't turn her down, as she was a pitiful sight. At first, he treated her with cool indifference, calling her Miss Heath. But as they become better acquainted, he refers to her as his, "Hanna, Liebchen".
On this visit, she is surprised to find him in such frail condition but he welcomes her with much happiness and they talk about why she is in Vienna. Seems she has come to visit him and to tell him of the many things that she has found. Also to ask about the book's missing clasps.
Hanna wants Professor Heinrich to help her get into the National Museum's old files where she hopes to find clues about the Haggadah. The doktor suspects that the pathetic binding placed on the book was Vienna's revenge for having to turn it over to the Bosnian Landesmuseum.
So much mystery to deal with today!
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What did you find about Schnitzler, Frybabe??? His awful story of how a Jew felt in Austria during the early 1900's was chilling. Here is his bio: http://www.litencyc.com/php/speople.php?rec=true&UID=5412
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On reading the bio of Schnitzler, I found this. Where have we heard this before? Its in our story as it progresses.
Arthur Schnitzler studied medicine at the University of Vienna from 1879-1884, spending 1882-3 as a volunteer at the military hospital. (He was later demoted from reservist officer to reservist private after the scandal of Leutnant Gustl in 1900, when he was accused of bringing shame to the Hapsburg army by ridiculing ritual duelling.)
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JoanP
re the Afterword.
I had (past tense) a library book and kept to the schedule --- except for reading ahead to the third segment about Venice 1609, because I volunteered to lead it, and wanted to be prepared.
But I went no farther, have no idea what the Afterward said.
But the library copy was unwieldy for me. Last week I took it back and bought a paperback instead. It's feather-light by comparison,
bendable, and it's mine! I can make marginal notes to my heart's content!
The paperback does NOT have an Afterword.
Instead there are:
1. An Introduction to People of the Book (It's a bit illogical, isn't it, to place an "introduction" at the end ? )
2. About Geraldine Brooks[/b]
3. Conversation with Geraldine Brooks with Q&A
4. Questions for Discussion.
Under (3), one of the questions the interviewer asked GB is "Who is your favorite character and why?" GB.'s short answer is that "Hanna was a good mate" and GB "misses hanging around with her".
Could that be considered a give-away that Hanna is fictional - and that, ipso facto, the characters in the separate stories are fictional too? But why does that cause such distress?
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I read the afterward and will try not to confuse it with the assigned section.
m daughter is a psycologist, not exactly sweet but empathetic which I think is Hannas main attribute in being able to identify with the people of the book. She does a good job on character in all the little stories as well. so the vulverability is what makes her likeable. I see that in my daughter and of course I think she is very sweet. ;)
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Adoannie, while I looked at several sites, I relied mostly on the Wikipedia article which listed his works and gave a description of some of them. Several have been adapted to film or play by other names. Eyes Wide Shut is adapted from Dream Story. Click on the book title for a synopsis of the book. I never saw the movie and definitely don't want to read the book.
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Jumping down to the last of your questions: What does he find intermixed in the wine sample that Hanna has brought to him?
This is right out of a CSI episode, isn't it? There is animal protein in the wine (amazing to find with such a small sample) which would not be in Kosher wine, which must not contain any animal products at all. Moreover, it's not just any protein, it's blood.
This mystery sets the stage for the next section.
Regarding Afterword: my Penquin edition is paperback and has the afterword on
pages 369-72, and includes several paragraphs of acknowlegements, as well an explanation
of where the real Haggadah was during the Nazi occupation of Sarajevo.
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BESPRECHEN: WELCOME WELCOME! We are glad to have you in our discussion. Do check out our other discussions, also.
Do let us know what else you found in your research. One of the joys of these discussions is that we all learn so much from each other.
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Mippy.
Thank you, thank you. The Afterword IS there in my paperback on pp. 369-72. I began looking for it from the wrong end, backwards !!
Apologies.
BYW, both TIME magazine and the Sunday NYT magazine are thinner now; both printed in a much smaller font. Grrrrrr
[b[Frybabe[/b], Viennese pastries and tortes are to die for. Coffee is traditionally served with "Schlag" = a huge dollop of whipped cream (and not from the can). Waiters are hailed by calling for "Herr Ober". Waitresses are still called "Fraeulein" (Miss) ... :)
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Mippy, the two mysteries that have my attention- regarding the real book, not the fictional now -
a. The fact that the Haggadah is illustrated - this is contrary to some sort of law concerning "graven images" -isn't it?"
b. The wine stain really does exist in the Haggadah, this is not GB's fiction. If the actual wine stain contains the protein - the blood - then this wine is not Kosher either.
Traudee, I'm glad you found the Afterword at the end of the book - the paperback. Have you read the Afterword? What do you all think - should we read it now - or is the mystery more fun?
Annie, I think the whole story of the way the Jew was regarded in Vienna in the 1900's is fascinating and an important part of the whole story. Back in a bit - am trying to research a new computer...
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The term "Judenfresser" is interesting. As Dr. Heinrich says, it means "Jew eaters", but fressen is the verb you use for animals eating, and when applied to humans, crudity or vulgarity is implied. (You would use "essen" for people.) So to me, "Judenfresser" would be an even more savage term than the translation implies, suggesting an animal ferocity.
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As we go on to a new section, a friend who had read the book warned me to keep track of the characters in each section. Mention of many of the characters shows up later, and we find out more about their lives, but it's sometimes hard to emember who they were.
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I've found reading the afterward and knowing which things are real and which literary inventions helpful. I've reread it, and there are no spoilers in it, from the point we are now.
I also find following the history backwards very confusing. So I've turned it arould, as far as weve gotten, sorting out what is real and what fictional. If you don't want to know, skip this post.
As far as we've read: (from Geraldine Brooks: afterword)
FACT:In 1894, the Haggadah "came to the attention of scholars in Sarajevo, when an indigent Jewish family offered it for sale...it was one of the earliest illuminated Hebrew books to come to light". It was sent to Vienna for study and restoration. The rebinding of the Haggadah was mishandled in Vienna. It was then sent back to Sarajevo.
Fiction: the clasps are fiction, as are all the characters in the section on Vienna.
Fact: 1941: a renown Islamic scholar, Dervis Korkut smuggled the book out of the museum under the nose of a German general, and hid it in a mosque in the mountains, where it only reappeared after WWII. He and his wife Servet performed many heroic acts against the Nazis
Fiction: the idea of the Muslim family in the book, the Kamals, is based on this family (but not the specific characters). Lola and the other characters in the Butterfly chapter are fictional.
FACT: During the Bosnian war, a Muslem Librarian, Enver Imamivic, rescued the book, and hid it in a bank vault. Many librarians in Sarajevo commited similiar acts of heroism: one of them lost her life doing so.
FICTION: while the idea for Ozren,the librarian in the book, was inspired by this story, the character and his life are completely ficticious.
FACT:2001 GB was a witness while a conservator, Andrea Pataki worked on the bookin a crowded room under heavy guard.
FICTION: GB emphasizes that the cvharacter, Hannah, is not at all similiar to the real conservator.
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JoanK,
That's a good idea or one could use the small post-its to mark the pages with names written on each.
I have not been able to quite understand the Judenfressen meaning. Judenfressen is translated how???Mea culpa! I am having a headache night tonight. Back later!
If you remember that the Dr that treats Mittl also has to help his brother who has a dueling wound. The Dr disapproves of dueling quite vehemently. The brother, who's mother is caucasian, thinks he will lose his status in the army due to his Jewish father.
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I read the afterword after the first chapter and have found it extremely helpful As I have said I believe the author has done a wonderful job but at heart I am a real histroy buff....Sometimes when I read a "TRUE HISTORY" I find it can be a bit dry. GB has taken some TRUE HISTORY and made it into a mystery .. a supposition about what could happen with hints of what really happened...Knowing the TRUE FACTS does not diminish the story to me but just makes it more interesting ...this mean it is not a true story but has taken a true story and made in enjoyable.. how can anyone who was not there during all of the places and people who handled the REAL BOOK tell a true story ., TO me GB has used what I sometimes do when I read a REAL HISTORY book.... imagination.. I try to imagine what really happens, how the people were affected and often I am brought to tears because of what I think really happened...It saddens me to know how cruel many so called leaders were and how cruel people in power treated the those whom they had captured or taken the country they now rule...I thank everyone for their insight and thoughts ....it makes reading a book truly enjoyable .
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PatH.
I've' never heard the term "Judenfresser". It appalls me. There's a similar composite noun known from geography and anthropology : "Menschenfresser", literally 'people eaters'. The proper word in German is cannibals. I can't think of another combination with
... fresser. The term is crude and denotes an insult.
Hanna was surprised that Frau Zweig, the chief archivist of the museum, would be so young and hip; she even had a stud in her upturned nose (retrousse is upturned).
Interesting how adroitly GB weaved in cultural differences, for instance the caution with which a person's first name is used in Europe. It indicates a certain unexpected, sometimes unwanted familiarity. When German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt was invited to the White House, President Jimmy Carter met him in the Oval Office, extending his hand and called him "Helmut". The Kanzler, a brilliant and rather formal man looked surprised.
Anti-semitism was rampant in Austria long before Hitler (who was born there) came to power in Germany.
Hanna mentions two possible reasons for the clumsy binding done in Vienna (page 97) : it may have been a petty natch because the manuscript had to be returned to Sarajevo, or the binder was an anti-semite.
It was clever of GB to refer to Arthur Schnitzler, who embodies the atmosphere of that era perfectly, the decadence and the waning power of the Habsburgs.
Son of a prominent Jewish family, Schnitzler was a playwright, novelist, short-storywriter and physician, trained in psychiatry. He was a contemporary of Freud, the two men knew of each other and would write favorably of the other's work. They lived only a short distance from each other, but they never met. Talk about formality! Like Freud, Schnitzler was interested in the hypnotic treatment of neurosis, especially hysteria. His drama Anatole deals with that theme.
BTW the proper spelling is Habsburg, with a 'b'. I can't imagine why a 'p' wold be there instead. It recurs, too, but no editor took notice.
Let me take this opportunity to repeat that a person who facilitates the conversation (the SPOKEN word) between parties who do not speak the same language is identified as an interpreter --- NOT a 'translator'.
A translator is a person who handles books, letters, documents of any kind and translates them word for word from one language into another (the WRITTEN word).
According to this distinction, the Irakis who ride in army jeeps and trucks and facilitate the ORAL communication between our troops and the native population are interpreters.
Just saw Fairanna's post regarding the Afterword. I agree with Anna.
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This is fascinating information - helping us to understand the climate in Vienna when this little book makes its appearance. The idea of this priceless book in the hands of the bookbinder, Mittl was shocking to me. Resentful as he is of the prominence of Jews in Vienna, it is a wonder that he took much care of the book at all while he worked on it. Perhaps even this man was awed by the illuminated pages.
PatH - you make an important difference between "fresser" and "esser" - which sent me scurrying to find what I could about the origin of the term. Didn't find much, but enough to suspect that GB was aware of this -
There is a considerable number of other Purim plays, including comedies and tragedies composed in Judæo-German and other languages (among them Hebrew and Arabic) and written during the last two centuries, of which a list is given by Steinschneider. Of special interest is "Haman, der Grosse Judenfresser," by Jacob Koref (Breslau, 1862), to which Lagarde ("Purim," pp. 56-57, Göttingen, 1887)
Haman, der Grosse Judenfresser (a Purim Play) (http://books.google.com/books?id=eozCKSgIkyAC&pg=PA505&lpg=PA505&dq=Jacob+Koref+(Breslau,+1862&source=bl&ots=fktgx1JHzZ&sig=L1i-8lsRWglaAu2TxOg_d77Y4u0&hl=en&ei=bTFlSpStLsSGtgf-85jzDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3)
It is the date of this purim play that I find interesting. Can anyone comment on "Purim Plays"? What were they?
JoanK - did your friend intimate that we should take note of the fictional characters - that they will reappear later in the book? If so, Babi was prescient - is it possible that we will meet Lola again? I felt we were leaving her behind, once she and the book were hidden away in the mountains until the end of WWII. I see from your notes on the Afterword that the book was actually hidden in the mountains during the war. So that's where the fictional Parnassius butterfly wing comes in - very rare, except in the mountains...
Anna - I'm going to take a cue from you - and surrender to GB's imagination. I'm working too hard to find the history.
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(sigh) I shall never understand the German desire for titles that include
everything one ever did! To address someone as "Herr Doktor Doktor ___" is
so awkward!
I think 'empathetic' is a very good choice of descriptive for Hanna, CLAIRE.
I think that is the key to her talent for digging out the history of the
artifacts she worked with.
ANNA, I think most persons who rise to positions of power must be tough
and what they would call 'realistic'. They 'cut their losses', with often
cruel results. The only thing I can think to say in their defense, is that
at least they reach the top equipped to deal with their counterparts in
the world.
Was anyone else as bemused as I was by Fraulein Zweig? I guess I have a
mental picture of the typical German institution as stolid and very
conventional. I could not imagine a young woman like Fraulein Zweig being
a department head in a German museum, mini skirts, hair, tattoos and all!
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Fraulein Zweig does make one wonder until she explains that she took her schooling in the United States. Probably she wanted to be like those young students of the late '80's and early '90's in NYC. Her choice of colors and styles speak of that time. I was not aware of the how formal the European people are until I read this book.
About "Feathers and a Rose" chapter:
Was anyone as surprised as I when telephoning was brought into the story for 1894? Long distance calling?? With a ten minute rule?? And all of the Dr's time limit being taken up by the operators fawning over each other and their bosses?
Another surprising item brought into this chapter was the dr's concern with cleanliness and maybe sterilization? He changes the sheets on the examining table after each patient. I must look up this procedure and see when it came into being.
Anna,
Your understanding and your process of reading historical fiction is in agreement with mine. I do enjoy it so but want to know what is true and what is not.
Traude,
So when we say "judenfresser" we are speaking Austrian?? And the German word for "people eaters" is "menshenfressers"? Horrible words! Just chilling!
Frybabe,
After reading about Schnitzler and knowing that "Eyes Wide Shut" was his writing also, I understand what Doktor Heinlich is speaking of when he says that Schnitzler's writing was erotic. Haven't seen the movie but have heard about it. Tom Cruise and his wife of that time were in it.
Mippy,
I have read the Afterword twice now and had found it very helpful. Its the last section of the HB edition.
JoanP,
How did you find that awful play?? Ugly stuff in "Haman, de Grosse"
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Purim is a holiday when Jewish kids dress up and may re-inact the story of the Book of Ester,
or perhaps just wear other costumes. In Israel this holiday seems to function as a replacement of Halloween, but perhaps others have better information. There are many parties, but I saw no trick-or-treat activities when we were in Israel in the 1960s and 1970s. Despite the link calling Purim an important holiday, none of our friends at the university thought it was.
Here's a link on Purim spiel, Purim play in English:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purim_spiel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purim_spiel)
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I think perhaps Brooks got it wrong about the phone calls - the Frauleins could exchange pleasantries for as long as they wished without using up the caller's time. The calls would be timed from the moment the two parties were actually connected and speaking to one another. They were not timed during the time it took the operators (Frauleins) to make the connection. Maybe Brooks was trying to add a little realistic colour to the period she was dealing with (1894?)
Brooks also had Hanna's old teacher, the Herr Doktor Doktor still dressed in a manner more in keeping with the fin de siecle with his loosely tied silk necktie, than as a man who was 76 in the 1990s. I felt she didn't get that quite right either.
Frybabe & Traude : Would you believe that in about 1952 I had my first taste of Viennese cakes - not in Vienna - but in a town called Wagga Wagga on the Murrumbidgee River in the rich Riverina district of New South Wales, Australia. I happened to be there and we took afternoon tea in the local tea shop (cafe) which was run by two sisters who had emigrated from Austria after WWII. The selection of cakes were such as I had never seen or really heard of before. Delicious but rich rich rich. The ladies were doing a thriving trade and stinted nothing either in their goods or in presentation. I remember the occasion clearly today almost 60 years later....
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I got curious about a painter named Klimt of whom I have never heard. He was mentioned in the paragraph where Dr. Hirschfeldt reminisced about the night out with his wife the night before. The painter is Gustav Klimt. I was expecting some oddities like Picasso when Brooks wrote "the man had a very odd conception of the female anatomy". I actually quite like these paintings. Here is a website dedicated to him and his works. Nicely done: http://www.iklimt.com/ If you go to the Timeline, you can click on the little red X's to enlarge the picture and read a little about it. There is a slider to move along the timeline. Enjoy!
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Not that I'm obsessed by food or anything, but I couldn't let pass That "Waves of Danube" cake that Hanna is served by her mentor. Here is a picture, and recipe for a "much less rich cake". Maybe I'll make one and bring it to the discussion, but I have to lose 20 or 30 pounds first in preparation. ;)
http://germanfood.about.com/od/baking/r/donauwellen.htm (http://germanfood.about.com/od/baking/r/donauwellen.htm)
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Joan thank you for the cake recipe but when I read the recipe I realized many years ago I made one We belonged to a group who met monthly at someones home for dinner and the hostess chose the menu , usually a foreign one. The night I baked the cake I think it was a German night but am not sure >>but it was the recipe or close to it ..the hostess gave me the recipe and I can tell you it was was wonderful but I am glad I didn't know how many calories because I am sure it was twice what the rest of the meal contained. We all loved it but the men finished it and there was none to take home..Which was good because I wouldn't have wanted to become addicted to it ! Reading is really a learning process...there is the book, the discussions of what may or may not be true . and learning about the what the characters do .and most of all giving thought to everyones ideas ...thanks for that
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Annie, German is a "pluricentric" language, and Austrians speak it with their own distinctive dalect.
Frybabe, that's what is so fascinating about the cultural pearls which Hanna weaves into the narrative.
Klimt became famous in his day and was awarded a medal by Emperor Franz Joseph. His fame endures. His paintings sell for millions of dollars.
It was an especially fertile time for arts, literature, music. Composer Gustav Mahler Das Lied von der Erde is of this period. His wife Alma, 20 years his junior, was a composer and painter in her own right. But Mahler wanted her to be a wife only. After his death she married architect Walter Gropius of 'Bauhaus' fame. After divorcing him, she married Franz Werfel The Songof Bernadette.
Werfel and Alma fled Vienna after Hitler's takeover of Austria in 1938 and in 1941 they fled to the U.S. on one of the last boats to leave Lisbon.
Gumtree, your points are well taken. That is what I meant when I said that some of the details are "de trop"= a bit too elaborately embroidered.
Re the famous Viennese pastries.
Two Viennese tortes are classics,
one is the "Sachertorte", named for novelist Leopold von Sacher-Masoff (The Legacy of Cain"]). His extreme preferences became known as masochism.
The other is the Linzertorte. Both tortes are dense, not too rich, neither extremely sweet. Google has pith-watering pictures.
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I’m just getting started and have a lot of catching up to do, but the insightful posts that I have read will be of immense help in getting into the swing of things.
Starting with the protagonist: do I like her? No. Do I respect her? Yes. Does she love her mother? Yes, in a love-hate kind of relationship which I regard as form of professional competitiveness.
As for the way she goes about her task we see a perfectionist at work; evident from the beginning as she arranged the tools of her trade, and trembled with excitement, knowing that she was handling a most precious commodity. The fact that she was not wearing gloves is not significant in any profound way because no matter how delicately they are made they would be an impediment in handling the minutiae with which she was required to deal. Sterility was not an issue and in my opinion neither were gloves.
As for the love/lust affair, was it really necessary in developing the characters? I found it to be a distraction which contributed little to the story . And where I find a touch of incredibility creeping in is where he declines help in the treatment of his child. What parents in their right minds would not grab at any straw which could offer a hope of recovery?
The first part of the second chapter was quite moving for me. Setting it up as she did, the author gave us a picture of peaceful coexistence viciously shattered by Nazi thugs and sympathizers. Perhaps it’s my deep involvement in Jewish theatre, and other aspects of that faith community that caused me to feel the despair and horror as families suffered those final separations.
Once past that we got an adventure story of a brave girl who overcame long odds, although the
dialogue of that ten-year-old was unbelievably precocious and proved to be a strain upon her credibility somewhat.
So now, back to the book.
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DON: WELCOME, WELCOME!!
Interesting and sad that the second adventure takes place in Vienna, surely one of the cultural capitals of the world, with its music and art, and one of the few times we'll see where Jews are not actively being killed for being Jewish, and yet the picture GB presents is of misery, self-centeredness, and debauchery. Is this the best culture can produce?
It is good, however, that GB shows us what the "good times" for Jews were like. Yes, Jews are not being killed, and can even rise to some promenance, but only by taking the jobs that no one else wants (such as treating syphillus), downplaying their Jewishness, or fighting as the young soldier does.
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Welcome, Don! I'm glad you joined us.
I use this opportunity to report - for the sake of good order - that PopChar is working perfectly now so that I can demonstrate what Fräulein actually looks and should look like.
:D
Traude
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Hi Don, It's wonderful to see you here.
I have a notion to check out Google maps or Google Earth to visit Boston but I am too tired just now. My youngest niece will be starting college this fall in Boston, but I have forgotten which one at the moment.
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I remember the occasion clearly today almost 60 years later....
Gum, I suppose that means the tea shop is no longer in existence. (sigh)
I had heard of Klimt before, but don't remember where. I appreciated the
chance to view some of his paintings. The nude figure were slim and willowy
and in some cases the musculature was exaggerated. Otherwise I didn't see
that the anatomy was all that strange. Was this the period when Rubens-type
figures were in style?
JOANK, having viewed that scrumptious looking cake, I believe our "Boston
Cream Pie" must be a derivation of it. They look very similar,ie.,
cake and custard with chocolate icing.
I was intrigued by the reference to an abdicating Pope. I didn't know such
a thing had ever happened, ...or could happen. I went looking, and found
the following:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03479b.htm
(For some reason, this link will not transpose to a clickable when I post. If
you want to check it out, you'll have to copy and paste.)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/peoplebkcvr.JPG) | You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath, Geraldine Brooks' edgy Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work. How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 14th century?
The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then, into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way. This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain. |
Discussion Schedule:
July 15-19 ~ Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
Sarajevo, 1940
July 20-24 ~ Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96
July 25-July 30 ~ #3 ~ Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
Hanna, Boston, 1996
August 1 - August 5 Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
Hanna, London, Spring, 1996
August 6-August 10 White Hair, Seville, 1480;
Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996
August 11-15 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
Hanna, Gunumeleng, 2002
August 16-August 20 Afterword | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmapsm3.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmaplg3.jpg)
(click twice to really enlarge) |
Topics for Discussion
July 25-July 30 ~ Wine Stains, Venice 1609; Hanna, Boston, 1996
1. What do you suspect is the reason for Father Vistorini's bitterness, which he drowns in the altar wine? Why does he sense the altar boy is judging him?
2. " I am Pope everwhere except in Venice." Why did Pope Gregory make this remark? Why is Fr. Vistorini more concerned of late?
3. What effect did the invention of the printing press have on publishing in Venice? How did the Jews view the printing press in Venice?
4. How does the priest's interest in his parishioners differ from the rabbi, Judah Aryeh's feelings for his congregation? Can you explain this?
5. How would you describe each man's weakness? Does the author appear to portray one more sympathetically than the other?
6. How did the haggadah come into the hands of Dona Reyna de Serena? What does she ask the rabbi to do with the book? Does she have realistic hope for its return?
7. What is it about the haggadah that startles the rabbi? Can you describe it? Why does he believe the illuminator must have been a Christian?
8. Why does Vistorini say he will not pass the work, though he admits there is nothing that contravenes the Index? What is the actual reason he will burn it?
9. Was Galileo actually brought before the Inquisition? What happened to him?
What do you know about the Index of the Inquisition?
10. Why did Vistorini decide to allow the game of chance to save the manuscript from the flames? How did it happen that the inscription was written in the book after all? Would you say one man's weakness pervailed over the other's?
11. What similarities do you see in the societies of each of these stories that threaten the survival of the little book?
12. What startling discovery does Hanna make in Boston that parallels Vistorini's? * Now that we have "laid eyes" on the formidable Dr. Sarah Heath, is she what we had expected from Hanna's description?
Hanna, Boston, 1996
1. Is Hanna's perceptible "edginess" attributable at least in part to the tense mother-daughter relationship?
2. Couldn't/shouldn't Dr. Sarah have tried harder years earlier?
3. Isn't a child's emotional well-being every bit as important as the care of a doctor's patients?
4. Is a mother's deliberate silence about a child's father ever justified? Understandable? Pardonable?
5. Does this first frank conversation between mother and daughter fully explain the reason for their poor relationship?
6. Is this turn of events believable? What if there had been no car accident?
Relevant Links:
Geraldine Brooks - Background information (http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s2446434.htm); Sarajevo Haggadah (http://www.haggadah.ba/); Early Haggadah Manuscripts (http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html); Illuminated Manuscripts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09620a.htm); Brief History of Illuminating Manuscripts (http://www.historicpages.com/texts/mshist.htm);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com ), & Traudee (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
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Claire your comment made me click on the link I loved the colors. and one thing like I will agree the Petty girls were not really offensive He made women beautiful and I think Klimt did the same >>I loved all the colors , the patterns and one I loved well was the painting of the Beeches . .here in Virginia the forests remain full and the trees so close that even on a bright sunny day only slivers of sunshine break through It is like moving through jade tunnels Of course there are many open fields but where two lane roads run not far from where I live I enter those deep jade tunnels and feel I am somewhere else and Klimt's painting did the same..to me they were more exotic rather than erotic so thanks for the link It brought a bit of color to my day ....
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Welcome Don, the Radioman! Not only have you caught up with the rest of us, but you have contributed much in your first post! We are delighted to have you with us! As I read your post concerning the insertion of Hanna's "affair" - it occurred to me that the author wanted to show that she is a living, breathing, sexual woman - and not merely a name attached to a conservator who will become our guide. I think she succeeded in showing that she is a woman - she's like so many young women now - for whom sex is just a way of getting to know someone - (I think she said that she hadn't had a love interest in a long time, so this was unusual for her, perhaps.)
It was when we met the chief archivist with the silver-studded "nez retroussée"- that I began to think how young all of these conservators, museum directors...archivists are. Have you noticed that they all seem to be 30 or under? Can you think of a reason for this? What happened to the "seniors" in the art world.
Would you believe I worked a crossword puzzle on Sunday - in which Klimpt and Mahler were both the answers I needed. Thought there was something wrong when I had the "pt" in Klimpt before the rest of the answer came. Would you say that both Mahler and Klimpt were "modernists" - in the late 19th century? I am sensing modern liberalism coming into Vienna overwhelming the Hapsburg dynasty - as foreigners flood into Vienna.
The Judenfressers in the Purim Play still confuse me. You are horrified at the term, calling it vulgar and disgusting and yet in the link that Mippy brings us, we learn that
A Purim Spiel is usually a comic dramatization, as a traditional type of Jewish play, or informal theatrical production, with participants, usually children, wearing costumes that depict the characters in the story in the Book of Esther.
A favorite form of a Purim Spiel for children is enacted in puppet shows with the Purim characters and their antics making the children laugh
.
The festival of Purim contains much celebration of comic relief because the decree of the wicked Haman was annulled and the Jewish people living in the ancient Persian Empire were saved from the edict of death and genocide instigated against them by Haman and instead rejoiced at the downfall of their enemies at the hands of Queen Esther and her uncle
Are you not laughing - as were the children watching "Haman, the Grosse Judenfresser" puppet shows during the Purim festival - because you sense what is to come?
I'm learning so much - can't thank you all for your wonderful contributions - you dazzle!
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And here I was guessing it was going to be Jodie Foster. ;)
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I just had to make a nit-picking observation before my powers of recollection reflected its true insignificance. Hirschfeldt stated that "last night. . . his wife. . .dragged him to hear Mahler's latest." In 1894, the time line of the chapter, that would not be possible; Mahler's "latest" work, published in 1894 did not receive its first performance until the following year in Berlin. That was his 2nd Symphony. If he meant the work preceding the 2nd, that one came out in 1889 in Budapest which I suppose, would make it his 'latest'. But he was born in Bohemia, and with the "modernist" movement arbitrarily adjudged as starting in 1890, one could include Mahler in that group.
And to add my input for casting the rôle, I would not object to Jody Foster or Liv Ulman
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Welcome, Don, Radioman! I'm so glad you found us here. Nitpicking is one of my favorite things, so with your encouragement, I'll plug in a few.
Sachertorte: the Hotel Sacher in Vienna claims to have invented Sachertorte in 1832, 4 years before Sacher-Masoch's birth, suggesting it wasn't named after him.
http://www.sacher.com/en-original-sacher-tart.htm (http://www.sacher.com/en-original-sacher-tart.htm)
In any case, eating it is the opposite of Masochism, since it's incredibly rich and good (the picture doesn't do it justice) especially with a big blob of schlag, the super-rich whipped cream.
HaPsburg: Traude, you mustn't fault the editor for that. It's mostly spelled that way here. Blame us English-speakers in general.
Wave cake: here's a picture that makes better sense of the waves. I found another, better for showing really wavy chocolate layers, but it was flaky (oops, no pun intended--the site didn't load well). The recipe was similar, though a bit lighter. It didn't use all the butter.
http://www.fotosearch.de/FDC004/941524/ (http://www.fotosearch.de/FDC004/941524/)
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To answer one of our questions concerning the Haggadah and whether there archives in Vienna:
Read this:
http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2008/apr/20/sarajevo_haggadah37828/ (http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2008/apr/20/sarajevo_haggadah37828/)
I was unable to call up the actual archives of the Vienna museum where the Haggadah resided for a number of years starting in 1894.
Maybe GB made up all the archive material??? Some folks in here know how to get into places like the Archives of that museum but not me.
I did notice that the Bosnia and Hertzagovinia National Museum has archives connnected with the Haggadah?Where did I see that??? I will investigate.
Radioman/Don, how nice to see you here. Welcome, welcome! Your posts always sparkle and you bring us much knowledge about classical music. Your speciality! ;)
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Here's an interesting article about Vienna and Austria before WWII. Much to consider there and also there are other links concerning the largest German-speaking Jewish community in Europe.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005452 (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005452)
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There was this in the Lola section that was affecting and well done - The suicide of Isak (with his little sister):
Embracing his little sister, he stepped off the bank, onto the ice. He walked out into the center, where the ice was thin. His sister's head lay on his shoulder. They stood there for a moment, as the ice groaned and cracked. Then it gave way.
On the other hand there's this not-so-subtle messaging from Serif to Lola/Leila:
“Come now!” Serif said, realizing that she was about to cry. “Jews and Muslims are cousins, the descendants of Abraham.
Diversity, Vienna, circa 1894 - from Hirschfeldt:
The warmth had tempted all kinds of people into the streets. Hirschfeldt took comfort in their diversity. There was a family, the wife veiled, the man wearing a fez, who had probably come all the way from Bosnia to see the heart of the empire under whose protection their lands had fallen. There was a Bohemian Gypsy woman, her spangled hem jingling in time to her swayed-hip walk. And a Ukrainian peasant with a red-cheeked boy riding on his shoulders. If the German nationalists wanted to purify this state of foreign influence, they would have many more obvious exotics to weed out before they got to the Jews, much less to a totally assimilated man like his brother
. But that "small voice" nagged at him..would the "young limes and sycamores" survive? Vienna was, after all "the laboratory of the apocalypse"
Diversity: Hanna, Vienna, 1996- Describes Raz Kanaha as one of the magnificent mutts that I hope we are all destined to become given another millennium of intermixing.
My nitpick: Boston's Dana Faber is Dana-Farber
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11. Do you think Hanna's mother would rather not see her daughter at all, or is she simply that absorbed in this conference?
Neither mother or daughter are comfortable with one another, and tend
to avoid meeting. They try to keep up appearances, but that seems to be
all they have going for them. I can't blame Hanna for resenting her mother's
attitude; it is extremely egoistic and belittling. I'd avoid her, too.
CHAZZ, I enjoyed the vignettes you posted, both now and when I first
read them. Another bit that made me smile was the heartlifting description of the mulberry tree, "thick with children, ‘perched on its branches like bright
Birds”.
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Here is a very interesting site where one might find references to the Sarajevo Haggadah.
http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/acquisitions/details/vienna/#content (http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/acquisitions/details/vienna/#content)
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joan P a little reminder.and the mustery actor is . . . .
this is beginning to irritate me. not fun at all. . . . claire
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I have a good friend from Auchsburg who once told me that German pastries and cakes use very little sugar. Maybe its the whipping cream that makes them so rich.
About the question of Hanna and her mother's relationship, I think they are never going to get any kind of relationship going. Hanna's bitterness, IMHO, is going to keep them apart, plus her mother's opinion of her bringing up of Hanna doesn't even come close to what it told to us by GB. I don't like her mother's treatment of Hanna and Hanna's request of an opinion about the little boy's x-ray. Things do not bode well for these two.
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The "Vienna" chapter sets up a vivid contrast between the peaceful co-existence of Jews, Muslims and Christians in pre-war Sarajevo and virulent undercurrent of anti-semitsm in Vienna.
I find a delicious irony that the restoration of the Haggadah has been entrusted to a vile anti-semite. Furthermore, the author has reversed the typical evil caricature of a Jew and has portrayed Mittl as a grotesque disease-ridden creature which was the image that so often was a depiction of the Jews.
The clasps have been stolen and sold to the doctor who will in turn convert the pieces to jewelry. So will Hannah ever uncover that part of the mystery? I don't think so. The author has exercised her poetic licence to let the reader in on this important element which to me is perfectly plausible.
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oh Claire, I'm so very sorry! I thought that you read besprechen's post - and new the actress with the film rights - is Catherine Zeta-Jones. What do you think? She's the face I see when we read the Hanna chapters now. I'm really sorry, I thought it was out of the bag.
My computer is down - both of them. I only get to run over here to my son's house for a short while each day...and must read too fast before I turn into a pumpkin.
Chazz, Babi, Anna - I think it's important that we notice the writing as you are doing - it's so easy to get caught up in the plot - and the history, but really it's the author's use of language, images, expression that makes this book the success it has become, isn't it?
Don the Radioman - that is too, too funny! The Mahler dates. I'm tempted to ask Geraldine Brooks about this - what do you think? I think it's time to contact her- what do you think? What would you like to ask her?
I do find the irony "delicious." Please remind me why Mittl decided to steal the lovely silver clasps that arrived with the manuscript? I forget. Was it simply because they were lovely, valuable and no one would miss them? I've a feeling there was another reason.
Annie, another question occurs to me after reading the article in the link you sent - this is what confused me -
Bosnia was part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, so the book was shipped to Vienna to be restored. The original cover likely was ornate and valuable. The conservator, however, was inept. He discarded the cover, cropped the parchment and bound the book badly with cheap cardboard.
I do remember that he used inferior thread and did a poor job binding the pages together (could he see them?) - but is that right? Did he discard the cover? Does anyone remember when the cover went missing? I'd love to know if there were any records on the condition of the book when it arrived in Vienna, Annie...maybe they just don't exist. Shall we ask her if she knows the answer to this question?
I think we need to consider the Kohen family who brought out the manuscript to sell it in 1894? Where might the manuscript have come from before the family owned it? Was there any reference there as to the appearance of the book - the cover? Maybe this is all fiction too?
Another thing I remember a bit differently than some of you do - the reason why the Jews were marked for expulsion from what had been a very happy blend of ethnicity in Vienna - dating back to the time of Maria Theresa - I thought Jews were excelling in business, art, medecine and the German Nationalists wanted do something about this.
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I thought of catherine zeta zones but she is too beautiful. . . I can't see her as hannah. I think Jodie Foster is more like it even though she is blondde. thanks. . . claire
I'm reading something else right now and cna't keep both going so will see you all alter.
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Joan P: Mittl gave the clasps to Dr. Hirshfieldt to pay for the "new" medicine for his VD.
When Hanna was describing her friend Raz she called him a mutt because of his mixed ancestry. He married a woman "who was the daughter of an Iranian-Kurdish mother and a Pakistani-American father. I couldn't wait to see their kids: they'd be walking Benetton ads."
What did she mean "walking Benetton ads" ?
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JoanP I regarded the reference to Mahler as just an aside, and as such Ms Brooks perhaps felt it was too insignificant to verify for historical accuracy. When I first read the passage I checked it out not to find fault, but rather to find what piece of music to which it referred. That's when I discovered that the "latest" work was five years old.
That now raises the question, should we expect perfection in every aspect of the story? If the answer is yes, then she should be brought to task about it. The other concern is that if she were lax in this instance, was she lax in others as well. I began reading this book with an open mind; I knew it was fiction based upon a real entity and I expected the author to have done painstaking research before beginning it, and to have fictionalized the points at which she had to guess. On the other hand, if this is purely fictional from start to finish then what I have posted here is irrelevant and immaterial.
I read a lot of historical fiction and many authors will point out in the appendix which points are true and which are made up.
Discussions aside, I am enjoying totally this book and would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone.
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Joan P: Mittl gave the clasps to Dr. Hirshfieldt to pay for the "new" medicine for his VD.
Yes, and as Hirschfeldt was about to take the clasps, he was moved by their beauty and was about to give them back and offer the treatment for free, but then he thought of how a jeweler he knew could make a gorgeous pair of earrings from the roses as a farewell present to his current mistress, and the feathers would make earrings for his wife, who he desires again since he has learned she has been unfaithful, and accepted the payment. I don't think we'll see the clasps again.
I'd love to have a clearer picture of what this kind of clasp looks like. They are supposed to hold the book open as well as keep it closed, and I don't know how that works.
Sadly, the "new" medicine probably didn't work. Don't quote me, as I haven't rechecked most of the science, but the medicine is described as being arsenic-based. Poisonous metals like mercury had been used to treat syphilis for centuries, and in 1909 Paul Ehrlich developed an arsenic-based medicine (Salvarsan, the "magic bullet") that actually worked well. But even if the experimental treatment was a forerunner of this, Mittl was so far gone in the neurological damage of tertiary syphilis that nothing could have restored him to normal.
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Don, we also have to consider the self-centered, insular nature of the Vienna intelligentsia. Maybe to Hirschfeldt Mahler's "latest" was whatever the Vienna Philharmonic had finally gotten around to playing.
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Joan P:
What did she mean "walking Benetton ads" ?
When Benetton started its successful line of clothing, they made everything in white, then dyed it according to whatever they thought was popular. Somehow out of this came a slogan "the united colors of Benetton", and I think in the process they had a bunch of ads with multi-colored models. I googled their ads and now they're just the standard set of models with the obligatory one in every four or five tawny or dark.
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PatH You are right, of course, about the "inventor" of the Sachertorte. I could not have been more wrong. Actually, in my collection of cookbooks I HAVE inter alia a paperback by Marcia Colman Morton, The Art of Viennese Cooking, which quotes (on page 93) the recipe given out by the Hotel Sacher.
It IS true, however, that the word Masochism "is derived from the surname of the Austrian novelist Leopold von Sacher-Masoch (1836-95) ..." Funk & Wagnalls New Encyclopedia, volume 17, page 66 q.v.
I too am a stickler for accuracy of the spoken and written word in all the languages I have. Accuracy was one of the essential requirements in the work I did. It is not my intention to split hair !
JoanP, I'm sorry to hear about the difficulties with your computer and hope you'll soon have a working machine back in your house !
In the first paragraph of the Afterword GB tells us: "While some of the facts are true to the haggadah's known history, most of the [plot and all of the characters are imaginary."
To repeat "... the haggadah's known history".
I take that to mean that the exact path of the journey will probably never be known. But isn't the real grace, the miracle, the ultimate triumph, in the survival of the manuscript? Isn't the very existence of the codex more important than the mystery which cannot be solved?
As for the characters:
Dr. Hirschfeldt is an imaginary character; Gustav Mahler was real. Exactly there is the distinction IMHO. The concert date of a specific work does matter in this case; Don the Radioman was right, I believe, to point out the discrepancy.
You asked if it should be brought to GB.'s attention. Hmmm. A delicate task, to be sure. What do we expect her reaction to be?
At the moment I have no questions for the author but will comment tomorrow.
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To repeat "... the haggadah's known history".
I take that to mean that the exact path of the journey will probably never be known. But isn't the real grace, the miracle, the ultimate triumph, in the survival of the manuscript? Isn't the very existence of the codex more important than the mystery which cannot be solved?
straudetwo - This is always the impetus for historical fiction, is it not? That hole in the known actual history invites speculation, recreation, creative 'accounting'. Some authors do this better than others. Sometimes the smaller the gap between the known and the unknown allows for even more creativity and produces work of great literary value. Sometimes the bigger gap allows the bricklayers to weigh in, giving us a false sense of history. We each make our own judgement, and place our own value on the works we read.
I've always thought that what we call 'history' is a cultural generalization or artifact which changes over time and is often tied to recent experience. From greater distances, longer perspectives, the shadows which 'history' casts yield up different images. History is elusive, changes over time - at least our interpretation of it. And that may be a tautology. History is interpretation. The distinction between history and fiction is a fiction in itself, I'd argue.
Then again, there are lots of things I may argue with myself at 4 AM.
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I see Evelyn answered JOANP'S question. From the description of Mittl's
condition, I suspect it was far too late.
Hair color is never a problem for an actress, CLAIRE. They happily dye
their hair any color for a role they want. Adapting for a role is all part
of the job. Jodie Foster, IMO, can effectively play any role.
Wonderful commentary on history, CHAZZ. It is so true that history is
interpretation as well as facts. I find it pays to note who is writing the
history/biography, and to what purpose.
I'm leaving with my older daughter this afternoon for a weekend in BAton
Rouge with my son and his lady. I will try to get in some computer time
while I'm there, but a good deal will depend on their plans.
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JoanP,
If I am understanding this paragraph right, your interpetation of the reason for getting rid of the Jews in Vienna is correct. I did check the copyright text and it is not verboten to use this text.
"In March 1938, Nazi Germany incorporated the Austrian Republic in what became known as the "Anschluss." Once in power, the Nazis quickly applied German anti-Jewish legislation to Vienna and the Austrian hinterland. The intent of this legislation was to exclude Jews from the economic, cultural, and social life of the former Austria. Officials closed Jewish community offices and sent the board members to the Dachau concentration camp. By the summer of 1939, hundreds of Jewish-owned factories and thousands of businesses had been closed or confiscated by the government." From USHMM.
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PatH, Traude, JoanP, Radioman, Aberlaine,etc.
I have been following all of the posts on a daily basis and there is some wonderful information being shared here! Not only the book itself but the links and the history of the area around Vienna has been wonderfully forthcoming.
I have seen art and the history of an artist mentioned in the book.
I have seen wonderful pictures of mouth watering pastries and cakes made in Vienna and its environs.
I have learned about Mahler who didn't really compose and present anything in 1894.
I have learned about how SDT's were treated back in those days. Can't believe the use of arsenic and mercury. Jeeeez!
So tomorrow we carry on our discussion wit a new set of Chapters.
And I finally reseachered C/Katherine Zeta Jones and now know that she is the owner of the movie rights and will probably be portraying Hanna.
And, she was in "The English Patient" and played the patient's unfaithful wife. Maybe won an Oscar for that part?
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Even if you never watch a video again, DO WATCH THIS WONDERFUL VIDEO OF THE BAKER FAMILY OF PRE-WAR VIENNA PUT TOGETHER BY STEVEN SPIELBURG.
http://resources.ushmm.org/film/display/main.php?search=simple&dquery=%22Stan+Baker%22&cache_file=uia_FiYvQq&total_recs=8&page_len=25&page=1&rec=1&file_num=4891 (http://resources.ushmm.org/film/display/main.php?search=simple&dquery=%22Stan+Baker%22&cache_file=uia_FiYvQq&total_recs=8&page_len=25&page=1&rec=1&file_num=4891)
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Outstanding, Adoannie. Thank you so much for sharing that find.
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mot du jour - "tautology" Thanks, Chazz - I had to look it up - found two meanings - the first I suspected -
"a technical notion in formal logic, universal unconditioned truth, always valid "
- but the second meaning is one I suspect I am often guilty of doing - " (rhetoric), repetition of meaning, using different words to say the same thing twice, especially where the additional words fail to provide additional clarity
'...history' is a cultural generalization or artifact which changes over time and is often tied to recent experience...History is interpretation. The distinction between history and fiction is a fiction in itself, I'd argue. Chazz
"
I'm enjoying this whole discussion! I've been struggling to find the facts on which GB has based her fiction - and now I must consider that much of history is fiction as well. Sigh. I promised Anna I'd surrender to the fiction and forget the history.
Oh Evelyn, for goodness sake, of course Mittl the bookbinder sold the clasps for the VD treatment! How did I forget that? I'm relieved to be reminded it wasn't greed. He was desperate for the treatment the doctor could have given him for nothing. The irony Don talks about is evident in this episode, isn't it? He sells the clasps for the treatment he could have received for nothing - that wouldn't have worked anyway! The Jewish Dr. Herschfelt, not knowing the provenance of of the clasps (the haggadah) almost gives them back, as PatH tells us - his greed causes him to keep them -to give to the mistress he is dumping and the unfaithful wife. That's not all. The museum won't pay for the bookbinding job because the clasps are missing. Oh, and the bookbinder is probably dead from the new arsenic treatment.
So who profited? The unfaithful wife, I suppose, who comes out of it all with the earrings - and her husband, who will probably transmit the disease to her. Can't you picture GB working out this plot, sharing the twists with her husband?
PatH - I'd like to see those clasps too. I wonder if they were unusual for the time they were created. Perhaps we'll learn more when we get to Spain.
Traudee, perhaps the Mahler discrepancy is not a good thing to point out to the author in our first communication with her, anyway.
I may purchase a computer today - which will spare these trips to my son's house to communicate with you. Thank you Ann for filling in as our correspondant! Wasn't it fun? We loved having you. Don't go away. Has anyone seen, Claire?
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Adoannie: Thanks for the video clip of pre-war Vienna. It was very interesting. Those people must have had very strong backs.
Joan P: Thanks for the explanation (Bennetton ads). I had no idea what she was referring to.
And, by the way, I agree. We shouldn't go nit-picking to the author in our first communication.
I am enjoying this book. This is a re-read for me and I am getting a lot more out of it this time and am enjoying all the extra info in all the links.
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EvelynMc,
Its so good to see you here. I am also in complete agreement with you on the author question. Seems to me that this book won the Pulitzer prize for a reason and I am truly enjoying every minute of it. Doesn't matter where there was fudging to make it more interesting since it is FICTION. Glad you liked the video that I found in the first link to the UNMMH or what ever those letters are. There is a lot here to talk about and when we get info from other places, it just adds to the fun of the discussion.
And as always, when I see your posts, I must ask about Gladys Barry. Have you heard anything??? We are going up there in three weeks and I will take her phone number(her son's #) with me.
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JoanP, I hope all went well with the computer purchase. They have become essential in our lives.
May I add some remarks regarding the "Anschluss".
The word literally means connection and is far too innocuous in this case.
Austria became part of the Third Reich on March 13, 1938 by annexation. The world watched and did nothing.
Even Hitler could not legally expel innocent citizens from Germany or Austria simply because they were Jewish. But he had more subtle, more sinister methods at the ready. Years earlier he had become fixated with racial purity. Not long after he came to power in 1933, an Aryan Law was enacted. When American runner Jesse Owens won the gold medal at the 1936 Summer Olympics in Berlin, Hitler made derogatory remarks about Owens, who was black.
By 1938 Jews had begun to leave, gradually, unobtrusively. Some went only as far as Switzerland (like Thomas Mann, whose wife was Jewish), many more went to America. (Not one of the six Jewish students in my all-girls school were left at the end of that
year.) After annexation, Austrian Jews also began to leave. Those who stayed in Germany and Austria had to wear a yellow star and were harassed.
Back to the book.
Mittl was not a sympathetic character. He and Dr. Hirschfeldt (who was no paragon either) seem stereotypical to me; Hanna has packed a great deal of information into that chapter. It would have been interesting to hear a little more about David, Dr. Hirschfeldt's brother.
David was clearly a member of a dueling fraternity. Members of that fraternity were instantly recognizable because of the dueling scars in their faces. They wore them proudly as an "academic distinction". (I remember being frightened as a child by the face of one of my father's colleagues, until father explained.)
By the time I arrived at the university in Heidelberg, all fraternities had been disbanded. I still recall the general fear and the awareness of VD. We had learned all about the three types of STD In high school biology class, from the "lightest" (most curable) to the most severe: syphilis, also called Lues, and its stages, ending in dementia. Mittl was in the tertiary stage. There was no hope. (The details could have been a bit less graphic.)
Based on my own experience I do not think that everybody "envied Jews because they were rich". Not all were extravagantly rich.
Envy and hate are detructive.
Regarding titles: Hitler scorned them. The members of the nobility swiftly dropped the "von" between first name(s) and surname. But that was then. Academic titles continue to be used. In a formal address, e.g. "Professor Doktor Muller". (I've never heard "Doktor Doktor" as an address.)
The Italians love titles. An engineer is addressed as "Ingegnere", a doctor as "Dottore" or, if female, as "Dottoressa".
Old habits die hard. But what's the harm? Suum cuique. To each his own.
ADOANNIE, forgive me, but GB was awarded the Pulitzer Prize in 2006 for March, an imaginative novel about the American Civil War à la Louisa May Alcott, featuring the father (!) we never meet in Little Women.
Who knows what the filmmakers will do with this book, what they will use and/or choose to omit. I have a very clear impression of the edgy Hanna in my mind. She does not look like Zeta-Jones. ;)
See you in Venice tomorrow ...
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I checked in byt my eyes won't let me read so much text. having fun with some sci fi. . .the name of the wind a real winner.
claire
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Forgive this blatant act of self-promotion, but in case you are unaware of my Sunday afternoon activity, I host a 3-hour classical music radio show Here (http://1069fm.ca/reids_records.php). And if you want to know what I'm playing it is posted in Classical Corner. [Playlist (http://www.seniorsandfriends.org/index.php?topic=1256.450#lastPost)
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Traude,
I stand corrected. ::)
We have not talked much about the clasps themselves. In your own opinion, are these particular clasps, so beautifully made, commonly put on every Haggadah???? What about the ability to use them for holding the book open while conducting a Sader? Have you looked at the other Haggadah's that are in museums today?? http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html (http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html)
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I've found that there are some books which give a short summary of the basic thrust of the book and the author's main purpose (besides entertainment, making a living and all that mundane stuff of life). I'll step out on this limb...it seems pretty sturdy... and say that in the book we're reading, it might just be this..."mystery" aside, familial relationships aside, love, sex and death aside....
From Raz (soon to be Raz the Rat) before he hits on her
“Well, from what you've told me, the book has survived the same human disaster over and over again. Think about it. You've got a society where people tolerate difference, like Spain in the Convivencia, and everything’s humming along: creative, prosperous. Then somehow this
fear, this hate, this need to demonize ‘the other’—it just sort of rears up and smashes the whole society. Inquisition, Nazis, extremist Serb nationalists…same old, same old. It seems to me the book, at this point, bears witness to all that.”
Big wheel keep on turnin'...It's still the same old story...
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If anyone tunes in early to hear Don's program, don't be disconcerted. The station is very different when Don isn't on.
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I hesitate to add more linkage -
La Convivencia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Convivencia)
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Annie, that's a really interesting Haggadah site. I notice that the late 13th century one shows people with bird's heads to get around the graven image prohibition. Next in time are three 14th century manuscripts from Spain, including the Sarajevo, and all of them have realistic human figures. So evidently our manuscript was on the leading edge of the shift to being allowed to show faces.
The modern ones are kind of interesting, too.
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Traudee, I have "built" and ordered a new computer - it should arrive sometime next week. I hope. This is the pits.
" You've got a society where people tolerate difference" - Chazz - This is important, I think. Is it greed or is it fear that causes one group to demonize another? My question - do things ever really go back to peaceful ways, or will the break and bias remain forever.
Traudee, no, I can't say Mittl is a sympathetic character - but at least he had a real need for the money that the clasps would bring him. He didn't steal the clasps for his own frivolous spending .
I would love to search to see if other manuscripts from this time - pre-printing press have clasps such as those described, Annie. I'd also like to see the crude binding on the Sarajevo Haggadah on display right now. Can't find any pictures of that either...the pictures all show the illuminated pages - and rightly so.
I must say I'm finding the vignettes, the portrayals of the fictional characters who come into contact with the book more and more convincing - and moving. as we go back in time. Do you empathize more with the priest and the rabbi, than with Lola, Mittl, Dr. Hirschfelt? Is there a reason for this?
Father Vistorini drinks to wash about bitterness. I'm wondering what causes it. The rabbi's wife thinks that celibacy is the cause - that he needs a wife. Why do you think he's "bitter?"
ps. Don - computer is down, but radio works. What's the name of your program?
Claire - waving at you! Take care of those eyes... Traudee, what does your Hanna look like?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/peoplebkcvr.JPG) | You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath, Geraldine Brooks' edgy Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work. How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 14th century?
The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then, into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way. This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain. |
Discussion Schedule:
July 15-19 ~ Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
Sarajevo, 1940
July 20-24 ~ Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96
July 25-July 30 ~ #3 ~ Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
Hanna, Boston, 1996
August 1 - August 5 Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
Hanna, London, Spring, 1996
August 6-August 10 White Hair, Seville, 1480;
Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996
August 11-15 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
Hanna, Gunumeleng, 2002
August 16-August 20 Afterword | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmapsm5.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmaplg5.jpg)
(click twice to really enlarge) |
Topics for Discussion
July 25-July 30 ~ Wine Stains, Venice 1609; Hanna, Boston, 1996
1. What do you suspect is the reason for Father Vistorini's bitterness, which he drowns in the altar wine? Why does he sense the altar boy is judging him?
2. " I am Pope everwhere except in Venice." Why did Pope Gregory make this remark? Why is Fr. Vistorini more concerned of late?
3. What effect did the invention of the printing press have on publishing in Venice? How did the Jews view the printing press in Venice?
4. How does the priest's interest in his parishioners differ from the rabbi, Judah Aryeh's feelings for his congregation? Can you explain this?
5. How would you describe each man's weakness? Does the author appear to portray one more sympathetically than the other?
6. How did the haggadah come into the hands of Dona Reyna de Serena? What does she ask the rabbi to do with the book? Does she have realistic hope for its return?
7. What is it about the haggadah that startles the rabbi? Can you describe it? Why does he believe the illuminator must have been a Christian?
8. Why does Vistorini say he will not pass the work, though he admits there is nothing that contravenes the Index? What is the actual reason he will burn it?
9. Was Galileo actually brought before the Inquisition? What happened to him?
What do you know about the Index of the Inquisition?
10. Why did Vistorini decide to allow the game of chance to save the manuscript from the flames? How did it happen that the inscription was written in the book after all? Would you say one man's weakness pervailed over the other's?
11. What similarities do you see in the societies of each of these stories that threaten the survival of the little book?
12. What startling discovery does Hanna make in Boston that parallels Vistorini's? * Now that we have "laid eyes" on the formidable Dr. Sarah Heath, is she what we had expected from Hanna's description?
Hanna, Boston, 1996
1. Is Hanna's perceptible "edginess" attributable at least in part to the tense mother-daughter relationship?
2. Couldn't/shouldn't Dr. Sarah have tried harder years earlier?
3. Isn't a child's emotional well-being every bit as important as the care of a doctor's patients?
4. Is a mother's deliberate silence about a child's father ever justified? Understandable? Pardonable?
5. Does this first frank conversation between mother and daughter fully explain the reason for their poor relationship?
6. Is this turn of events believable? What if there had been no car accident?
Relevant Links:
Geraldine Brooks - Background information (http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s2446434.htm); Sarajevo Haggadah (http://www.haggadah.ba/); Early Haggadah Manuscripts (http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html); Illuminated Manuscripts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09620a.htm); Brief History of Illuminating Manuscripts (http://www.historicpages.com/texts/mshist.htm);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com ), & Traudee (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
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Thanks for the link, Chazz.
I am going to spend some more time looking for more connections to the Haggadot. Bye for now!
Here is a most interesting layout and text about the Venice Haggadah of 1609? Lots of explanation is here is you continue down the page to see the pages of this incredible book.
http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/VeniceHaggadah.html (http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/VeniceHaggadah.html)
And here are photos of the ghetto in Venice where the Jews lived from 1516. Fantastic photos!
http://fcit.usf.edu/Holocaust/photos/venez3/venez301.htm (http://fcit.usf.edu/Holocaust/photos/venez3/venez301.htm)
And another: http://fcit.usf.edu/Holocaust/photos/venez3/venez3.htm#venez318 (http://fcit.usf.edu/Holocaust/photos/venez3/venez3.htm#venez318)
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Wine Stains: what an intriguing and gripping chapter! I am beginning to appreciate more the structuring the author has applied to the significant elements of this story. Thus far we have learned how the clasps came to be missing. We also recognize that having been converted into something no longer related to their original function it is unlikely the protagonist will ever learn the truth. In this chapter the puzzle of the wine stain and the blood were resolved.
But it is the character development of the priest and the rabbi which has captivated me. Ms Brooks has eloquently demonstrated the weaknesses of the human condition. In the case of the priest the reason for his grievous shortcoming was revealed in the surprising dénoument of the chapter. (There may be some who have not as yet read this far so I’ll refrain from saying more)
The author provided an interesting touch on the title page of this chapter; she inscribed the Latin words “Introibo ad altare Dei.” These are the opening words spoken at the beginning of the Latin Mass which translated mean “I will go unto the altar of the Lord.” which are the words spoken by the priest in his delirium.
The matter of Carnivale poses an interesting puzzle. Officially,the Carnivale season begins following the Epiphany, the Twelfth Day Of Christmas, or in secular terms, January 6th and concludes on Mardi Gras, the day before Lent. It is a period of feasting and merriment. If the season is recognized at all in these modern times it is usually only for a couple of weeks before Lent. I can only speculate that in the 1600's when strict adherence to religious matters was de rigeur, observation of the various holidays would be maintained which would mean Carnivale would extend for the full period I mentioned above.
If my speculation is correct, I wonder just when the rabbi hoped to leave Venice before Carnivale began. Did he mean the day before Mardi Gras or the day after Epiphany, Jan 7th? Or did Ms Brooks mean Mardi Gras and nothing more?
As with my Mahler submission this is not all that significant; merely grist for the mill of trivial contemplation. :)
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The pictures of the ghetto in Venice are fascinating. If I understand them, there were two ghettos (old ghetto and new ghetto) connected by a shot bridge over a narrow river. It's not clear when the "new ghetto" was built: whether it was around during the period of our story.
Some of the ghetto looks like it has been cleaned up for tourists(?!). Many of the Jews living there were desparately poor. but I assume wealthy Jews like our Hirschfeld had to live there too, so it must have been mixed. Most of the parts we see look like the wealthier parts. I suspect the scene with the washing hanging between two buildings was more typical.
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I was taken by the ghetto pictures, which certainly add to the deeper understanding and appreciation of the story.
I noticed in the woodcut illustration of the Venice Haggadah , first panel, the celebrant is depicted carrying a censer; is incense used in Jewish services?
And are the terms "haggadah' and "haggodot" interchangeable?
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AdoAnnie: I don't know Gladys Barry. I have a feeling you think I'm someone else. I was Evelyn133 in the old SeniorNet site, and changed my "name" when I came in here. I was in Latin with Ginny for about four years, but was also in various book discussions. I just can't remember coming across Gladys, unless she posted using a different name.
Thanks for all the interesting links.
Chazz: Thanks for that link explaining "LaConvivencia". I did not know that Muslims, Christians and Jews all lived together in Spain for over 700 years.
Kind of makes you wonder why tolerance always seems to end.
Traude The information regarding the "Anschluss" was interesting. Were you living in Germany or Austria during the second World War? You mentioned going to school there.
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EvelynMc,
I will have to go look for the Mc person. ::)
Radioman,
Haggadah is singular and Haggadot is plural.
Glad you like the Venice ghetto pictures.
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Thank you for your posts; special thanks to ADOANNIE.
I had prepared for this segment for weeks, long before we began, because I have a special relationship with Venice.
But due to a misunderstanding I failed to send my questions to JoanP in time. My sincere apologies to all of you, most especially Joan, who didn't need this unnecessary aggravation. Mea culpa, me maxima culpa.
I so wanted to post at least one view of the Venice waterfront showing the Doge's palace. One of the most famous, of course, was painted by Canaletto (1697-1768). But I'm not good at linking, and copyrights have to be considered.
My first question was to be "Did you know that the word 'ghetto' is derived from the Italian geto and that Venice was the first?"
It was. Gated; locked at night, reopened in the morning.
An indignity, wasn't' it? Plus having to wear a distinguishing sign!
Since the allotted space was limited, there was only one way to build , UP,, and at the very top was the sanctuary right under the sky.
And yes, there is something about the light in Venice, a special luminosity. Even in the dead of April, say, when acqua alta floods Piazza San Marco, St. Mark's Square, and people cloaked in raincoats make their way across rhe wooden boards, always ready for such times.
One question looms large for me: how old is Vistorini?
Adopted by monks when he was five or six; his extraordinary affinity for languages was soon discovered. That became his specialty. And,\ the reason, we assume, for his being chosen to be Inquisitor in Venice.
Can we today have any measure of the power the Inquisition had?
Or the power of the Catholic church over what the faithful were allowed to read?
We all heard of "banned in Boston", but do we realize what limits the Index imposed? Where they lifted ?When?
Much to talk about : the relationship between the two men ---- what is considered 'heretical', gambling in the 17th century, and the "carnevale".
Again, my apologies for posting with such delay.
Traude
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Traude,
So glad you are here and your post was most informative. Can't wait to see where you take us. ;) ;)
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2. " I am Pope everywhere except in Venice." Why did Pope Gregory make this remark? Why is Fr. Vistorini more concerned of late?
I should probably wait until I get a chance to read this section because I cannot answer the second part until I do. However the quote, which I have heard before somewhere, seems to have something to do with the decadence and behavior of the nuns and priests in Venice. The book cited an example of the Superintendent of Convents and arrangements for the services of young women/girls (I assume of a carnal nature).
The only reference I can find for the quote, oddly, is one book published around 1905. Venice, the place and the people, by Francis Marion Crawford. Google books has the entire book online for your reading pleasure. I wonder if Gutenberg does.
Now I am curious about the author of the book. I'm glad I looked him up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Marion_Crawford
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I would speculate that Pope Gregory XV's words were based a lingering feud between Rome and Venice which began in the early 1600's. The two states argued over who had authority over whom, Venice passed a law making it illegal for a Venetian to bequeath money to Rome. Rome then excommunicated Venice. Venice expelled all the Jesuits. They eventually kissed and made up but I would guess there was still an undercurrent which made Pope Gregory uneasy.
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Frybabe,
Very interesting bio of the author, Francis M Crawford. I wonder if any of his historical fiction titles are still available? In looking him up, you have brought to us a prolific American author who is a new name in the cache of authors around that time. And now, due to technology, he has a book online at Google.
So I "googled" it and take a look at this!
http://books.google.com/books?id=oIcZAAAAYAAJ&dq=Venice,+the+place+and+the+people&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=uVxkQNQXJh&sig=toOKfr5je5SKSBf3B1518ryqYUQ&hl=en&ei=TlJsSuCyE8j7tgfMyoCbAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=oIcZAAAAYAAJ&dq=Venice,+the+place+and+the+people&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=uVxkQNQXJh&sig=toOKfr5je5SKSBf3B1518ryqYUQ&hl=en&ei=TlJsSuCyE8j7tgfMyoCbAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1)
The illustrations are quite interesting, some a little blurry, as this is a scanned copy of the 1909 edition of the book itself. Its so tempting to look through the whole book, just to see the drawings but I must have breakfast first.
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JoanK
We met Dr. Hirschfeldt in turn-of-the-century Vienna, Austria.
In "Wine Stains", Hanna takes up back in time to 1609 and Venice, a city like no other, rising out of the Adriatic Sea. Called "Serenissima" = most serene, and "Queen of the Sea". The city is crisscrossed by canals large and small and too many bridges to count. Canal Grande is the largest canal; []Ponte Rialto[/i] = Rialto bridge the largest bridge, il ponte dei sospiri = the Bridge of Sighs a famous small one.
(Would it be possible to link a picture or two of the Venetian lagoon, perhaps an aerial one, so that we can get a "feel" for this unique city? Thank you in advance.)
The area called "Cannareggio Sestiere" was officially assigned to Jews in 1516. Successive waves of immigrants arrived after systematic persecutions, hence the "ghetto vecchio" and the "ghetto nuovo" (or novo). Men had to wear an identifying piece of yellow cloth and women a yellow scarf. But there were no repressions against Jews in Venice; the city became a haven for them. And when Napoleon conquered Venice in 1797, Jews became full citizens. The 18th century, called "sette centro" in Italian, was one of the culturally most important periods in Venice.
JoanP's Q. 1.
Vistorini's trembling hands are a clear give-away. He is resentful that the altar boy noticed.
Is that resentment an indication that he feels guilty?
Do I understand correctly that it is the UNconsecrated (not the altar) wine that is the irresistible temptation?
Q. 2. I feel that Don's interpretation is logical.
Q.4. Vistorini's ministrations to his parishioners are perfunctory at best. He is, I believe, increasingly consumed with his tasks as an inquisitor; assailed by doubts not felt as strongly before; incredulous that "heretical" thoughts are still being printed; chiding himself for not being more persuasive in his theological and philosophical debates with Rabbi Judah; fanatically convinced he can get the rabbi to see the "truth" of una sancta.
Again I ask, how old is Vistorini? He was adopted at age 6, lived in Venice for thirty years, has been a inquisitor for seventeen, an alcoholic for how long?
He comes across as an old man. Is he, really?
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While searching for an aerial view of Venice, I came across these photos of some important buildings in Venice.
http://www.italyguides.it/us/venice_italy/venice_travel.htm (http://www.italyguides.it/us/venice_italy/venice_travel.htm)
And here is an aerial view from the same site. This map is interactive!
http://www.italyguides.it/us/venice_italy/interactive_map_of_venice/map_of_venice.php (http://www.italyguides.it/us/venice_italy/interactive_map_of_venice/map_of_venice.php)
This page also offers a free audio tour of Venice.
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Catching my breath here.
My grandson (13) was here overnight, after the first really hot and sultry day in Massachusetts. He and his school chum Kieran slept in a tent in the backyard. Never a dull moment!
Claire, my thoughts are with you. Take care of your eyes as much as possible. We've to be careful with the vision we have left. I'm in the same boat, as you know.
Evelyn and # 165.
Yes, I was in Germany and Italy during the war. And I lived in Venice after the war. A long story ... Two lives, really...
Chazz and [b/Babi[/b], on the interpretation of history: very well put.
Thank you for 'tautology'. I smiled at the memory from decades back. It includes pleonasm, not a synonym but related.
Radioman I have book-marked the site but lost the schedule. Will search.
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Wow, take a look at this interactive photo of the Grand Council Chamber.
http://www.italyguides.it/us/venice_italy/doge_s_palace/sala_del_maggior_consiglio/grand_council_chamber.htm (http://www.italyguides.it/us/venice_italy/doge_s_palace/sala_del_maggior_consiglio/grand_council_chamber.htm)
When I say these are interactive, I mean, if one sees the arrows in the middle of this photo and presses on the different ones, one can see a panorama of this magnificent room. IMHO, the art is breathtaking!!
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annie that is amazing. what is the floor made of? not marbel? how to get close ups to the wall art.
claire :)
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annie the haggadah illustrations look like woodcuts to me. I was looking for coor as in the book. hmm
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Clair,
Are you looking at the Venice Haggadah?? Those are wood cut illustrations and very well done, in spite of no color. The printer points out many innovations that were printed in this version.
"He claims that innovations have been made on each and every page not only with regard to the text but also with regard to the design of the page and in the interaction of image with text." Yale University Library
I don't know what the Chamber floors were made of but if you see the down arrow in the middle of the bottom of the picture and hold that down with your mouse, the picture will start roll and show a better picture of the floor which looks like a mixture of many pieces, like granite. What do you think???
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ADOANNIE
Many thanks for linking these treasures. That's exactly what I had in mind.
Thank you very, very much.
Q. 9
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) was the foremost scientist of his day. Though he never left Italy, his inventions and discoveries were heralded around the world.
In 1609, Galileo built a telescope with 20 times the magnification; he telescopically confirmed the phases of Venus; he discovered the four largest satellites of Jupiter, named "Galilean moons" in his honor. He championed the theories of Polish astronomer Nicholas Copernicus (born ca. 90 years earlier). But when he publicly declared that the sun, NOT the earth, was the center of the universe, he ran afould of Catholic doctrine.
He was tried by the Holy Office of the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy", forced to recant, and ordered to spend his last years under house arrest.
Recommended reading: Galileo's Daughter by Dava Sobel, a stunning portrait of a person who would otherwise have been lost to history. The discussed the book here several years ago.
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Quotation-straudetwo: "Do I understand correctly that it is the UNconsecrated (not the altar) wine that is the irresistible temptation?"
Just to clarify the matter of the wine, it is all, generically speaking, 'altar wine' It is consecrated during the liturgy of the Mass and is consumed entirely before the celebrant leaves the altar. (There are variants to this of course, but it is always consumed.) To put consecrated wine back on shelf with the other wine would be a sacrilege of the highest order. The communion hosts which are part of the communion ceremony along with the wine are also consecrated, but in the case of unconsumed wafers they are locked away in the tabernacle.
So the priest's temptation would by default be for the unconsecrated wine and nothing more than the craving of an alcoholic.
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I agree with CHAZZ, that the cycle of tolerance to intolerance is a keynote in this book. And Evenly asks why
intolerance keeps returning. I take it for granted that the intolerant are always among us. My question is why
the rest of us allow them to rise to power time and again? Of course there can be no simple answer to that question.
There are a number of factors involved, one of which would be hard times and the desire to find someone to blame.
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Back several pages, AdoAnnie asked ... [were such] clasps, so beautifully made, commonly put on every Haggadah? and I didn't see anyone else mention this.
Clasps were characteristic of fine, expensive books of that period, but an every-day haggadah would not be such a book, just a rough guide to the Passover service. Therefore, I think GB is giving us incite into those books in general by giving such a detailed history of the clasps.
Was it Don/Radioman who asked about use of a censer for burning incense in Jewish services? The answer is no, incense is not used in any Jewish rituals that I'm aware of.
Here is a link that tells more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censer)
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Mippy, I think we would have to examine the early Christian illuminated manuscripts to get an idea of the sort of clasps described here, don't you? This was not the usual haggadah manuscript of the period.
Babi, I've been thinking about what's been said about the cycle of tolerance/intolerance since yesterday. I guess i find it hard to believe there really were such periods of religious/racial tolerance - because of the human condition - the haves and the have nots. Am i being too cynical? Perhaps among the poor...there is more of the tolerance we are talking about here.
Don, you're right about the consecrated/unconsecrated wine - but it seems to me that Father Vistorini was getting satisfaction from both the consecrated AND the unconsecrated wine. This man has a real problem.
Is this why he's bitter? Or is he drinking because he's bittler? Do you think he is physically ill? Is the bookburning getting to him? Or is it something else?
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JoanP and Radioman,
First my apologies for my singularly unnecessary question concerning altar wine. It embarrasses me.
Raised a Lutheran in the predominantly Catholic Rhineland, I married a Catholic (which scandalized my family as much as our eventual emigration did), and became an Episcopalian in this country. For us it was the perfect solution. We never argued about religious issues.
What led me to that question was a review in the NYT by Liz Fugard specifically this paragraph in the NYT by Liza Fugard:
An inscription in the real Sarajevo Haggadah reads Revisto per mi. Gio. Domenico Vistorini 1609. Taken with the notion that a Catholic priest surveying the index during the Inquisition might choose to save it, Brooks creates another memorable character, an erudite scholar with "an innate reverence for books." Sometimes he finds "the beauty of the Saracens' fluid calligraphy moved him. Other times it was the elegant argument of a learned Jew that gave him pause." This priest haunts the sacristy for draughts of unconsecrated communion wine, intent on obliterating painful memories from his childhood - "the blowing sand of that desolate town," .... not to ention thoughts of all the texts he has sent to the fires in his 17 years as a censor.
I should have brought that question to our Rector ! Hhahaha
JoanP, there were more (and longer) periods of INtolerance than tolerance, I believe. Religious fervor caused the Crusades
and the Thirty-Years War from 1618-1648 (of which we don't hear much in our history classes). There were other religious wars.
And if war were not devastating enough, there were systematic efforts to exterminate people of different ethnicity, most ignominiously under Hitler. Still, we must not forget the repeated pogroms against Jews in Russia and elsewhere. We've had other villains since Hitler and Stalin, and several potential powder kegs make us uneasy ...
BTW, where could Father Dom's home have been? He has memories of glaring light, dust driven by scorching winds. Where could he have gotten such a persistent, strong accent? It is unusual for a child of 5 ot 6 to retain an accent. In my (long) experience it is much more common for children to instantly absorb the language of their environment; to stay bilingual or trilingual is easy for them as well. It was certainly true for my daughter, who was 4 when we came here. I spoke to her in German and Italian. She learned to speak English from listening, observing and, yes, from watching TV with a tiny screen.
The question of the priest's age continues to concern me. We are led to believe that he and the rabbi are contemporaries. But the information we are given on the priest does not match this.
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The question of the priest's age continues to concern me. We are led to believe that he and the rabbi are contemporaries. But the information we are given on the priest does not match this.
Venice 1609. Vistorini has been in Venice for 30 years. He was 6 when he came to the city. That would make him 36 or so, born circa1573. In 1589 "the young priest".....a 16 year old priest?
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I'm having trouble visualizing the clasps. A rose, enfolded by wings. But we are told the roses will make earrings, and the wings a broach (presumably with a hole in it where the rose was?) They must have been big.
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Venice 1609. Vistorini has been in Venice for 30 years. He was 6 when he came to the city. That would make him 36 or so, born circa1573. In 1589 "the young priest".....a 16 year old priest?
It says in 1589 the young priest had been a natural choice to work as censor. It also says (same page, p. 180) "For 17 years (that would be 1592), almost his whole life in holy orders, Domenico had read and passed judgment on the works of alien faith." That would make him 19, more believable. In any case, he has to be in his 30s now. He doesn't seem that young. What a mess he is: he vomits in the early morning, his walk is unsteady, his hands tremble, the sip of consecrated wine steadies him a little, but he only really feels better when he has had a few good swigs of unconsecrated wine. I don't know how long it takes for someone to get into that state, but it looks like he is deteriorating rapidly.
How old is Judah Aryeh? He has been married for 24 years, so presumably in his 40s, older than Vistorini, but not a lot.
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Chazz, PatH - thanks for confirming my suspicion that Fr. Vistorini is only 36 years old. I agree with you - his position as Inquisitor is certainly taking its toll on him. It must be difficult to love books - and be forced to burn so many beautiful copies. They are printed copies, though. He probably hasn't burned too many hand-lettered, illuminated manuscripts on parchment, do you think?
He seems a lonely man - not really connected with his parishioners, no wife, and at odds with the city fathers - the doge and the ten - who we are told, views Rome and her "minions" with scorn. He's also trying to grasp the dreams of his mother and his former home - but they elude him. He also must make an effort to shake a thick accent he's had since childhood. Are you thinking what I'm thinking?
Contrast him with the Rabbi - a happily married man, (what is Bride's Shabbat - is it still a custom?), loved by his congregation and in a position to negotiate with Fr. Vistorini to save Jewish texts from the flames. Do you think he's the same age as Fr. Vistorini, Traude?
But what's wrong with the rabbi? He's having chest pains. Is it his heart? He also has a weakness - he likes to sneak out of the Geto at night - to mingle with the Gentiles. What's that about? Does he like to mingle with Gentiles - or to match wits with them in games of chance?
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JOANP, I think 'tolerance' in any given period is probably a relative thing. Venice, where the Pope was not so greatly influential and the Inquisition much weaker, was very 'tolerant' by the standards of that time. Intolerance is still present in our own society today, but nothing like what it was 50 years ago. What was considered 'tolerance' then wouldn't
begin to qualify as such now.
One of the most encouraging things I've seen in the past few years, is that people did rise and protest, effectively,
the quashing of individual rights and liberties that took place in Guantanamo. As far as I'm concerned, the events there
were a 'wedge' that could have opened us up to much worse and more widespread loss of liberty. We didn't let it
happen, thank Heaven!
Dern, CHAZZ posted something I wanted to comment on, but now I can't find it. I'm lost without my notepad.
Hopefully, I will be home by tomorrow night with all my tools in reach.
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Babi. True.
But tolerance encouraged and proclaimed is not the same as sanctioning the implementation and practice thereof. Even within the Church. Case in point, though off topic.
As reported in an article in the NYT by Laury Goodstein on July 1, 2009,
"The Vatican is quietly conducting two sweeping investigations of American Nuns, a development that has startled and dismayed nuns who fear they are the targets of a doctrinal inquisition."
The "quietly" and "doctrinal inquisition" (!). But I won't say anything ele.
The Brothers spotted the boy's extraordinary affinity for languages early on and "educated him in Greek and Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic, and he absorbed it all." Doubtless it took years.
From all indications Father Dom was an efficient, zealous, increasingly argumentative servant of the Holy Office. Shouldn't he have been elevated to Monsignor after 15 years, let alone 17?
Questions arise also about he rabbi's weakness: gambling. Sarai, his wife knows about it.
He received apparently received donations from Doña Reyna before.
Had he gambled with them (and perhaps lost them) then too?
How do we feel about Question 5?
Is the reader asked to distinguish between the weakness of each man; is one weakness more destructive in its effects than the other?
Is GB/Hanna telling us that the rabbi suffered a fatal heart attack?
What about the priest?
We haven't talked about the bells yet : It's the first word in the chapter.
The Marangona specifically is mentioned. It is the only bell that survived the collapse of the bell tower (campanile in Italian) in 1902. The chimed of the bells housed within announced the routines of the workday for artisans and noblemen alike. Each bell had a different sound and pitch and its own name. The present Campanile dates from 1912 and the Marangona is much beloved. . Its unforgettable sound can be heard solo at midnight.
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How do we feel about Question 5?
Is the reader asked to distinguish between the weakness of each man; is one weakness more destructive in its effects than the other?
Is GB/Hanna telling us that the rabbi suffered a fatal heart attack?
What about the priest?
Both compulsive gambling and alcoholism are sicknesses, and both are horribly destructive, but alcoholism is worse. Gambling may impoverish you, but at least it leaves your body intact. Vistorini is not going to be able to drink on that monstrous scale for long before he ruins his body. Brooks is sympathetic to both men--showing you clearly their weakness and stress--without condoning or making excuses.
It's a little ambiguous, but yes, I think the rabbi suffered a fatal heart attack, whereas Vistorini just collapsed into a drunken fog. One thing puzzles me, though. How did the haggadah get back to Reyna de Serena? Since we next hear of it in Sarajevo, presumably she took it with her when she emigrated, but Vistorini didn't know who the owner was, and Aryeh seems to be out of it.
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Maybe the Rabbi's weakness was more destructive because he had so much more to lose? I think the author outdid herself in the portrayal of these two men.
It seems as if the Rabbi's weakness got the better of him - he bet everything on chance and that is what caused his downfall. I still don't understand the reason for his gambling. He stood to lose so much. Was it simply the excitement? Or something else?
"The blood eddied, trapped and sluggish, in the fissured chambers of his breaking heart. As his feet landed on the hard stone, fists seemed to strike his chest, the blows of a giant."
Traudee, it sounds to me that the rabbi has indeed suffered a heart attack - brought on by Father Vistorini's threats to burn the book - and bring charges against his friend for heresy. We know Father Vistorini is overly drunk - the Rabbi helped him get to this state, didn't he? What caused the priest to turn on him as he did? He seems to be holding the Rabbi responsible for forcing him to burn books and persecute the Jews.
Now we know how the wine stain got on the book, mixed with the blood - I think it's clear the rabbi is dead. At least he'll not have to explain to Dona de Serena what has happened to the manuscript. So if she didn't get it out of Venice, then how did it get to Sarajevo, Pat asks? The last we see it, it is on Father Vistorini's desk. It has been spared. But now what? It seems the priest will live - plus, he has suddenly remembered his family, his roots. Can he continue now in his role as Inquisitor and a man of the Church?
Interesting that if the wine stain could have had a DNA test it would have shown that the drop came from a Jewish man.
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From what I have read on the other Venice site that I left a link for, the Festival time used to last quite long. From Epiphany to the first day of Lent! I don't think the length of it changes our book thought.
Just opened my National Geographic and guess what they have featured this month----VENICE! There is a good map of the island too so I will go look for that if anyone wants to see it.
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Thank you, JoanP and PatH
The only thing that mattered in this case was the haggadah. And it survived.
Now, would it be too far-fetched to think for a moment that somehow it was hidden in the carved-out madonna by the door that had held the secret Hebrew text? And smuggled out that way? Why ever not? GB left that one wide open :)
Noone but the rabbi knew of the connection with Doña Reyna de Serena. And she had entrusted the book to the rabbi specifically because she wanted to avoid the risk of its being found on HER person -- if she were searched before leaving Venice. Even though the Doge himself had assured her of safe passage, she wanted to be sure.
JoanK I saw just such a clasp many years ago in a museum. It was not made of massive/i] silver but of very delicate filigree worked into an intricate design I don't recall. it was square and had a tiny knob (for want of a better word) in the middle. The other half of the clasp, larger so as to accommodate the thickness of the volume, neatly fit on the top half. An orifice met the tiny knob. The result: perfect closure.
I hope it has helped a little.
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Annie, let us know what you read about Venice - I came in to say that i just opened the Smithsonian Magazine - big cover spread on Galileo. We do need to talk about the Inquisition and how it got started in the first place.
Oh, and I think I know how the book got to Sarajevo - well, not really, but in this fictional work... You have to go back a chapter - to Hanna, Vienna, Spring 1996 to find the first of two clues - because I'm not telling! ;D
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Yes, JoanP: it's very difficult to follow the story forward in time, because it is told backward. the clue to what happened at the end of one section, is always in the section before: when you read it, you don't remember it because you don't have the information yet to understand it.
"I still don't understand the reason for his gambling". It's hard for those of us who aren't compulsive gamblers to understand those who are. I know someone who lost everything he had several times gambling: finally his family kept all assets away from him so he couldn't gamble them away.
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BABI:" I think 'tolerance' in any given period is probably a relative thing". That is one thing I really like about this book. It shows how relative tolerance was/is for the Jews: tolerance comes to mean they can live and work, even if all kinds of humiliation was heaped on them.
It also shows how fragile that tolerance was (is?). Periods of great "tolerance" suddenly followed by periods of oppression. Perhaps one of the reasons that more Jews didn't take advantage of the narrow period when they could have gotten out of Germany was that they really couldn't believe they were in danger.
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According to the reading schedule we have about two days left to discuss the second chapter in this particular segment,
Hanna, Boston, Spring 1996.
Proposed questions were added to the header for your consideration.
Hanna's tireless search for clues on the haggadah's journey is temporarily overshadowed by events and stunning revelations that are bound to profoundly affect her life. The passionate Haggadah search continues, of course.
Until now we'd heard only ONE voice lamenting the bad mother-daughter relationship. Some of us probably thought "oh, poor Hanna". I certainly did. HOW do we feel now, having heard the voice of "the other side"?
And HOW persuasive is either voice after such a long period of time?
Uncharacteristically, Dr. Sarah is in a "debilitated" conditon; for once no longer in control. There are no patients in immediate need of life-saving surgery; no important papers to deliver to academe ; the nurses attending her in Boston are demed "incompetent".
What does the reader make of all this?
Where was GB really going with this?
Just imagine, briefly, that this sudden avalanche of heretofore intentionally withheld information had crashed down on a person less strong as Hanna intellectually and emotionally ?
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In one of my initial posts I posited that the relationship between mother and daughter was on a love/hate basis. I felt that deep down she loves her mother, and having read the latest chapter I feel vindicated in my first assessment. The concern Hannah demonstrated was not that of a daughter who hates her mother. To me it's a case of "we'll agree to disagree, but I'll be there when you need me." Her immediate response to the news of her mother's accident bears that out.
The revelations of her mother's closely guarded history and Hannah's new-found heritage has come as a great shock: the extent of which led her to a drunken stupor. If there had been no accident then nothing would have changed and they would have continued to go their separate ways. I find the narrative both plausible and compelling because we now see Hannah's mother capable of being emotional.
This has been the most moving chapter thus far.
As a matter of interest, there is a marvelous description of Venice in the fourth canto of Bryon's Childe Harold's Pilgrimage Byron (http://www.online-literature.com/byron/childe-harolds-pilgrimage/4/)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/peoplebkcvr.JPG) | You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath, Geraldine Brooks' edgy Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work. How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 14th century?
The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then, into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way. This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain. |
Discussion Schedule:
July 15-19 ~ Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
Sarajevo, 1940
July 20-24 ~ Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96
July 25-July 31 ~ ~ Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
Hanna, Boston, 1996
August 1 - August 5 ~ #4 ~ Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
Hanna, London, Spring, 1996
August 6-August 10 White Hair, Seville, 1480;
Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996
August 11-15 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
Hanna, Gunumeleng, 2002
August 16-August 20 Afterword | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmapsm5.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmaplg5.jpg)
(click twice to really enlarge) |
Topics for Discussion
August 1-August 5 ~ Saltwater, Tarragona 1492; Hanna, London, 1996
1. Can you think of any reasons why Geraldine Brooks chose the port city of Tarragona, Spain (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0019_0_19609.html) for the creation of the haggadah?
2. Do you remember from whom Dona de Serena had procured the manuscript which she put in Rabbi Aryeh's hands for safekeeping? (This could be important.)
3. What does David Ben Shoushan intend to do with the pages he buys from a young boy in Tarragona? Do we now have the answer to the puzzling Haggadah illustrations, so like the illuminated medieval Christian manuscripts?
4. Why would David have worried about the propriety of placing the images in the haggadah ten years ago, but no longer? Why such an elaborate gift for his nephew?
5. What did the capitulation of Granada have to do with the expulsion of Jews from Spain?
Why had the Jews been fighting the Moors?
6. . Have you been noticiing GB's metaphors, particularly in character description? Though women play a subserviant role, how does Brooks describe David's daughter, Ruti? Can you compare her to Lola?
7. What is Kabbalah and Zohar that Ruti has been secretly studying and practicing for the last three years? Does this give her the nerve to carry on the affair with Micha, the bookbinder, though he is married and a father of two?
8. Does it appear that Reuben Ben Shoushon willingly converted to Catholicism to marry Rosa? Is it because the child would not be born a Jew that David turns his back on his pregnant daughter in law? Is this religious intolerance in a way - to disown one's son for religious reasons?
9. If those who agreed to convert to Catholicism would be allowed to remain in Spain, why is Reuben in prison? Were all of the conversos suspected of false conversion? Why will David's older brother not help ransom his nephew now?
10. What gave Ruti the strength to deliver Rosa's baby and then save him? What is the irony here? What will happen to the Haggadah?
Hanna, London, Spring, '96
1. Do you see a change in Hanna after she heads back to London after seeing her Mum in Boston?
2. What remarkable parallels do you see between Hanna's essay on the Haggadah and G. Brooks' work on this book?
3. What new information on the clasps does she learn from Frau Zweig? The salt stains? The white hair found in the binding of the Haggadah?
4. Which did you find more shocking - Ozren's son Alia's recent death or the appearance of Hanna's colleague, Amitai Yomtov in Sarajevo at this time? Isn't he the one who recommended her for the job on the Haggadah? Do you think the two events are related?
Relevant Links:
Geraldine Brooks - Background information (http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s2446434.htm); Sarajevo Haggadah (http://www.haggadah.ba/); Early Haggadah Manuscripts (http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html); Illuminated Manuscripts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09620a.htm); Brief History of Illuminating Manuscripts (http://www.historicpages.com/texts/mshist.htm);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com ), & Traudee (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
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Don, I agree, Hanna's meeting with her father's family at the shivah for Delilah Sharansky, the Jewish grandmother she never knew - the mother of the father that she never knew, was extremely moving. A warm, happy family - such as Hanna never had.
But Mum - still doesn't seem to get it - she doesn't understand how her lack of feeling and emotional deprivation has done to Hanna. "Bugger the both of them. Better just get on with it." Traudee, I'm not sure whether this new understanding of her roots will "profoundly affect" her work in the future.
To me, the contrast with Father Vistorini's realization of his own roots with Hanna's was the most striking element in the two accounts. Hanna is the daughter of the Russian Jew, Aaron Sharansky. Geovanni Dom Vistorini understands the elusive dream of his early childhood - in his drunken stupor he realizes that he is Eliahu ha-Cohain. Do you think he will ever be able to carry on his work as the Veniitian Inquisitor? What will he do with the beautiful haggadah that is now in his possession?
I think we have the answer to the mystery of how the haggadah came to be in Sarajevo, PatH. Do you remember back when Hanna was at the Archives in Vienna examining the three folders relating to the work that had been done on the haggadah a century before?
There was a letter from an instructor of the Hebrew Language at an elementary school for Sephardic (Spanish) Jews -
"A son of the Kohen family, being my pupil, brought the haggadah to me."
Eliahu ha-Cohain - Kohen?
"When the translator visited the family, the Kohen widow said her husband had related that the book had been used when his grandfather conducted seder...She said and I was able to confirm, that the Kohen grandfather was a cantor who trained in Italy. Hanna thought of the inscription - "Revisto per mi" - put the haggadah in Venice in 1609. Had the Kohen grandfather trained in Venice? Had he perhaps acquired the book there?"
Do you suppose that GBrooks is telling us that our Father Vistorini - aka Eliahu Cohain is the grandfather described here? I like to think that the lonely 36 year old priest went on to a new life after this sad and chilling episode with the Rabbi...what do you think of all this?
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JoanP, after your hint I went back and saw what you did. Kohen in all it's variations is a very common Jewish name, but it's hard to believe Brooks is coincidentally using the name. But the Kohen grandfather lived in the middle 1700s, so either his ancestors brought the book out, and he trained as a cantor in Venice because of family origin or tradition, or he acquired it in Venice when he was there. Alternatively, since Reyna Serena was emigrating partly so she would have a chance of marrying in the Jewish faith, perhaps the Kohens are her descendants.
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JoanP, your last post raised enough issues that I could talk all night on them:
"But mom - still doesn't seem to get it - she doesn't understand how her lack of feeling and emotional deprivation has done to Hanna."
Worse than that, she deprived Hanna of the love of a grandmother. Here's the grandmother, looking through the bars of the playground fence, longing to love Hannah, while on the other side is Hannah, lonely, not getting the loving attention she needs. What a sad waste!
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Dr. Heath, talking about her relationship with her daughter:
"And then, when you hit adolescence, and you seemed to hate me so much...it was as if that was part of my punishment.
....What do you mean? Punishment for what?
For killing him. Her voice was suddenly very small."
What did she mean? Heath had behaved totally professionally; as soon as she realized the diagnosis, she got Sharansky to the best man in the field, and took no part in the treatment, but watched closely over all that was happening. Sharansky chose the risky surgery over the milder course, which would have been enough to save his life, because that was the only way to preserve his vision. The surgery did not do that--he was going to be blind, which, given his driven mission to paint, would have been intolerable. Afterward, " as it happened, he never woke up to find out he was blind. That night there was a bleed, and Andersen missed it. By the time they took your father back into the OR to evacuate the clot--"
As a detective story reader, I wonder if Heath missed it, or if she sat with her lover, seeing what was happening, and let it, knowing that he would have preferred death to blindness. Heaven protect us from ever having to make such an awful choice.
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Perhaps one of the reasons that more Jews didn't take advantage of the narrow period when they could have gotten out of Germany was that they
really couldn't believe they were in danger.
(JoanK)
I think that is exactly right, JOANK. So many had been Germans for generations; they thought of themselves as German. Some were no longer even practicing Jews, but that matters not at all to fanatics engaged in a
racial 'cleansing'. The more prosperous and influential they were, the safer
they thought themselves. It was a stunning shock to discover that their wealth only made them more valuable targets, and their influence inspired jealousy.
Hanna in Boston provided some lighter moments for us. I had no idea there were so many renowned universities in Boston. I knew Harvard was there, but didn’t really know the location of MIT, Brandeis, Tufts. No wonder my granddaughter Marie is doing so well there. The scholarly atmosphere must be most stimulating and encouraging.
I got a grin from the t-shirts. “There are only 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand the binary system and those who don’t.” I always try to read t-shirts and bumper stickers. My most recent favorite I saw on a car before the recent elections. It read, “Republicans for Voldemort!”
I agree with Hanna/Geraldine Brooks about the ‘vanguard human beings’ of multiple genetic heritage. I’ve often heard that some of the most beautiful people in the world or those of mixed ethnicity such as one sees in Hawaii, or the Indo-Europeans. After all, if the human race is all of a common stock, maybe it’s time we merged once again. Perhaps the result will be gorgeous.
I could live with that. ;)
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PatH, you're right - there is so much raw emotion and regret packed into this mother/daughter meeting - it is difficult to tell what really happened. I took it that the Dr. Heath regretted that she had opted to stay out of the surgery - you would have been more aware of the danger Hanna's father was in. Perhaps she still believes she would have done a better job than Dr. Anderson. And then, there is the possibility that she saw signs that there was a bleed and did nothing.
Out of curiosity, I looked up the poem by Gerard Manley Hopkins - remember the line from the poem Aaron Sharansky had written to her - I wanted to see it in context - here's a link -
"What I do is me, for that I came." (http://embodiment-of-freedom.com/persfree/hopkins.html)
He had added the note - "Sarah, you are the one. Help me to do what I came for." Pat - since she carried the note with her, I think you might be right in assuming that Sarah helped him - that she let him go, knowing that he lived to paint.
Sarah Heath said something else that puzzled me during this meeting in the hospital. What do you think she was referring to - what chance did Hanna have?
Hanna: "How can you blame yourself?" [for referring father to Dr. Anderson]
Sarah: "You wouldn't understand."
Hanna: " You could give me a chance to -"
Sarah: "You had your chance. A long time ago."
Now what is that about? Is Sarah referring to the fact that Hanna didn't go to med school? Does she continue to lay a guilt trip on Hanna for throwing her life away? Is she saying that this is the reason Hanna doesn't understand her? Do you see any hope for understanding between these two - ever? Are they still rooted in the past to have a future?
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Babi, wasn't GB saying much the same thing in her portrayal of Lola - the Jews living peacefully for so long in Sarajevo were unaware of impending danger - until it was too late.
Ah yes, Harvard Square - I loved reading this section - we lived in Cambridge for the three years my husband was in the big law school there - back in the late 60's - during the peak anti-war demonstrations and marijuana lovefests!
PatH - I'm still after the Kohen/Cohain link - I can't let it go - I still think that Fr. Vistorini is the connection here. I believe there was no way that Father Vistorini somehow got the book back to Dona Serena for her to be the link to Sarajevo.
First of all - the fact - The Haggadah was sold to the National Museum in Sarajevo in 1894 by a man named Joseph Kohen.
This fact GB used in her fiction. You're right it was too much of a coincidence that she would reveal Father Vistorini's name as Eliahu ha-Cohain.
From GB's fiction -
1894 - the son of the Kohen family brings the haggadah to his elementary school, wanting to sell it to his tutor.
the widow of the Kohen family related to the Museum that her recently deceased husband remembered his grandfather conducting the seder with it -"which put the seder in Sarajevo as early as the mid 18th century."
Then Hanna says the grandfather in question was a cantor who had trained in Italy...and asks herself, "Had the Kohen grandfather trained in Venice?" She makes a note to follow through with this - let's hope she does.
I think that it is possible (probable) that the Kohen grandfather who had trained in Venice as a cantor was related to, perhaps even a son or grandson of Father Vistorini - aka Eliahu ha-Cohain. I'm thinking that Father V. never left Venice, but somehow returned to his Jewish roots - or maybe made contact with the family - and passed the fabulous book to them. what do you think? One thing I'm certain about - he doesn't continue to burn books after this.
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The best thing about having dedicated readers you pose and answer the questions and thoughts I have ! So I am just enjoying reading , making mental notes and finding you (readers) have done my work for me...thanks ..it allows me to read with your insights and thoughts....happy to be with you ..anna
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Good sleuthing, JoanP!
As you know, mysteries in all the forms the genre embodies are not my cup of tea, save for a few notable exceptions.
Yes, in the present case I too saw the name Cohain - but didn't make the connection.A good deduction.
In this book, more than any other I've read recently, the devil (and the marvel) IS in the details: of history, geography, the restoration of manuscripts, preservation of our small planet. Then there's the fascinating plot and vivid characters - though not all of them appealing.
I've said from the outset, there are TWO tracks involving ONE heroine:
On ONE track we accompany Hanna, the narrator, in her search in 1996, and possibly beyond.
The OTHER track follows the journey of the haggadah from its origin to its discovery and salvation in a series of cleverly imagined episodes featuring imaginary characters.
Are these TWO tracks of equal importance, or does one matter more than the other?
In any event, at this point in our assigned reading Hanna has discovered a father and rrelatives she hever knew existed.
A reason to jubilate, for small perswonal fireworks, wouldn't onet think- albeit for the anger inside.
Was that Hanna's reaction?
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Traudee, Hanna seems intent to go on as always, to submerge herself in her work and uncover the mystery of the book using the few clues that she has discovered in the binding. But I'll bet she regards the book - the history of the book with a deeper personal interest - the book had belonged to her father's people, her people, in a way. Do you think she will have future relationships with this new-found branch of the family? Had her grandmother been alive, perhaps. Right now, I'm not sure. Has the damage been done?
Annafair - it is so good to know you are with us - and that you are enjoying the wonderful insights and comments that come up each day here. I look forward to them too.
One thing we haven't talked much about is the Inquisition itself, which if I understand correctly, started with political motivation - by the monarchy, by King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of Spain. Somehow it ended up with book burning and worse, the burning of those considered to be heretics. My own Joan of Arc was one fo them. I was born on May 30, the date she was burned in France.
Can we talk about Father Vistorini's reason for condemning the Haggadah to the flames? There were two reasons - the one he gave the rabbi about the moons of Galileo - and then his real fear, which the rabbi never knew about.
Funny, the Smithsonian magazine had a big thing about Galileo - with a picture, a 19th century painting of Galileo before the Inquisition. I found the article online. I'll go be back with the link - and the painting.
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OK, here's the a 19th century painting by Joseph-Nicolas Robert-Fleury
(http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/mg13618460.600/mg13618460.600-1_300.jpg)
...and another by Christiano Banti in 1857 - (http://www.hao.ucar.edu/education/img/inquisition.gif)
I wonder at the renewed interest in Galileo and the Inquisition in the 19th century...
Here are some excepts from the July, 2009 Smithsonian article - the link to the whole article follows -
"The Starry Messenger (Galileo's publication of his findings) was a success, however: the first 500 copies sold out within months.
In time Galileo's findings began to trouble a powerful authority—the Catholic Church. The Aristotelian worldview had been integrated with Catholic teachings, so any challenges to Aristotle had the potential to run afoul of the church. That Galileo had revealed flaws in celestial objects was bothersome enough.
But some of his observations, especially the changing phases of Venus and the presence of moons around other planets, lent support to Copernicus' heliocentric theory, and that made Galileo's work potentially heretical. Biblical literalists pointed to the book of Joshua, in which the sun is described as stopping, miraculously, "in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day." How could the sun stop if, as Copernicus and now Galileo claimed, it was already stationary? By 1614, a Dominican friar named Tommaso Caccini preached openly against Galileo, calling the Copernican worldview heretical. In 1615 another Dominican friar, Niccolò Lorini, filed a complaint against Galileo with the Roman Inquisition, a tribunal instituted the previous century to eliminate heresy."
Late in 1615, Galileo traveled to Rome to meet with church leaders personally, eager to present his discoveries and make the case for heliocentrism. But Baronius' view turned out to be the minority one in Rome. Galileo was cautioned against defending Copernicanism.
Eight years later, a new pope—Urban VIII—ascended and Galileo again requested permission to publish. Pope Urban granted permission—with the caveat that Galileo should present the theory hypothetically. The book Galileo finally published in 1632, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, however, came off clearly in favor of the Copernican view, infuriating the pope.
Galileo was condemned by the Holy Office of the Inquisition for being "vehemently suspected of heresy, namely of having held and believed the doctrine which is false and contrary to the Sacred and Divine Scriptures, that the Sun is the center of the world." He was sentenced to imprisonment, which was commuted to house arrest for the by then ailing 69-year-old man.
Galileo's Vision - Smithsonian Magazine (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Galileos-Vision.html?c=y&page=4#)
But do you remember the real, though unstated reason that Father Vistorini decided to burn the Haggadah?
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PATH, I certainly assumed Sarah was referring to Hanna's refusal to take
up medicine as a career. I don't know of anything else that she could be
thinking about. She does seem to feel that only another surgeon could begin
to understand the importance of her work to her. I find Sarah's attitude
rigid, even obsessive. I doubt if she will ever be able to respect Hanna's
work and her talents. She describes them in the most derisive, contemptuous
terms. Definitely not the motherly type.
Oh, yes, JOANP. When one grows up in a place that is 'home', feeling one
belongs there, is valued there, has many friends there...how can you take
it seriously when someone suddenly points a finger and says none of that
is true?
I think Vistorini wanted to save the book, and regretted that last scene
with the Rabbi. The simplest explanation is that he decided to put the book
into the hands of a Jew. It would be natural enough to choose a family with
the name of Cohen/Kohen. Not only because it was apparently his original
name, but also because the Cohens were originally priests, descendents
of Aaron. It would be appropriate to entrust such a book to one of them.
As to Hanna and her discovery of other family, how could she not want to
see more of them. She is welcomed, rejoiced over, her work respected and
admired. What a difference from what she has known with her Mother.
Personally, I'd be spending as much time with them as I could!
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Thanks for posting the link to the Hopkins sonnet, JoanP. Otherwise I wouldn’t have gotten around to reading it, and it repays some study. It’s not a quick read because of the convoluted language. Here’s what I make of it.
In the first part Hopkins says that everything in nature, animate or not, spends all its time expressing its inner nature, the "being" that "dwells" "indoors". This is it’s purpose in life—crying itself to the world.
In the sestet he enlarges the idea in the case of the "just man". What he is manifesting is the inner nature that God sees in him, and this inner nature is the Christ within him.
I love Hopkins’ language, especially:
Each hung bell’s
Bow swung finds tongue to fling out broad its name
Sharansky was Jewish, but you can read the poem on several levels, specifically Christian, generally religious, or as an explanation of nature, and it still says the same thing, the joyous, purposeful expression of your inner nature in everything you do. It totally sums up Sharansky’s approach to life and his work.
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JoanP
To fully understand "Wine Stains" and the terrible quandary of the rabbi and the priest, in fact, the mortal danger both faced in case of discovery, we need to a bit more about the Inquisition. I am aware that people's eyes tend go glaze over when historical or geographic details are mentioned, but sometimes it is unavoidable. It may be helpful now.
The Inquisition was conceived by the Catholic Church.
What was it? Why does the mere word is vaguely disturbing?
Have you seen (as I have) a party guest, beleaguered by too many probing questioners, protesting: "What is this? The Spanish Inquisition?"
So what is the Inquisition?
* An institution of the Catholic Church combating and suppressing heresy.
* An ecclesiastical triunal
* The trial of an individual accused of heresy, including harsh interrogations.
History distiguinshes between
the Spanish, the Portuguese, and the Roman Inquisition and
Inquisition against Protestants.
The Catholic Church had reason to be concerned:
There was tension between successive rebelling emperors of the Holy Roman Emperor, and
after the death of Mohammed in 632 AD, Islam, the religion he founded, spread from the Arabian peninsula in all directions, in the west to North Africa, Spain, Sicily, Southern Italy. Moors and [/i]Saracens[/i] they were called in Spain; Turks/Ottomans in the east.
The papacy was an active participant in various battles, it had its own army of mercenaries; thus was a party when a truce was signed and when the spoils were distributed.
The papal army was part of the Holy League, a coalition that included Spain; the territories of Naples, Sicily and Sardinia; the Republic of Venice (!!), the Republic of Genoa, the Duchy of Savoy.
I'd like to talk about the famous naval Battle of Lepanto against the Turks in 1571 - but there isn't time. :(
In the following centuries, the Turks pushed westwards time and again and stood before the gates of Vienna more than once.
Why does history distinguish between the countries? Why is the Spanish I. mentioned first? Was its practice there more zealous, more cruel?
As the Inquisition political?
Not in the beginning, IMO. Was religion the only reason for expelling Jews? What about the real property they had to leave behind? Who benefited from that?
We really don't know - do we? - what happened after the priest slumped down on the table, when or if he awoke from his stupor. Or what happened to the haggadah. We know it was saved, and that satisfies me. The thought that it could have been hidden in the carved madonna intrigues me, but WHO could have put it there and out, and when?
I'm no a sleuce and have no idea.
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PatH - thank you for your explication of those lines of poetry - and the note from Hanna's father that Sarah Heath has been carrying in her pocket all these years.
"Sarah, you are the one. Help me to do what I came for." It seems that Sarah has finally brought Aaron to his daughter. Had grandma Sharansky not died in the accident, would Sarah have told Hanna the truth?
It was interesting to me that the poem was written by Gerard Manley Hopkins - a Jesuit priest. His"Hound of Heaven" (http://www.cs.drexel.edu/~gbrandal/Illum_html/hound.html) always moved me - I hadn't read it in quite a while - until now.
Babi - here's another possibility - Fr. Vistorini might have been overwhelmed with remorse and taken the book to Rabbi Aryeh's widow, Miriam, who somehow knew where to find Dona de Serena. Maybe Dona de Serena came to his funeral? But see, none of that explains the coincidence of the Cohen name on the bill of sale in Sarajevo...which is really too much to dismiss.
"King Ferdinand II of Aragon and Queen Isabella I of Castile set up the Spanish Inquisition in 1478 with the approval of Pope Sixtus IV. In contrast to the previous inquisitions, it operated completely under royal authority, though staffed by secular clergy and orders, and independently of the Holy See. It operated in Spain and in all Spanish colonies and territories, which included the Canary Islands, the Spanish Netherlands, the Kingdom of Naples, and all Spanish possessions in North, Central, and South America. It targeted primarily converts from Judaism (Conversos and Marranos) and from Islam (Moriscos or secret Moors) — both groups still resided in Spain after the end of the Islamic control of Spain. Origins of the Spanish Inquisition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition#Spanish_Inquisition)
This week we will be talking more about the Spanish Inquisition as we move into the next chapter - "Saltwater." We'll set sail for Spain to investigate the origin of the salt stains on the pages of the folio. Traudee, in this chapter perhaps we will come to understand what motivated the Spanish Crown to institute the Inquisition a bit more.
Can you locate Tarragona on the map? Why do you think GB chose Tarragona? (Does anyone know if there is any factual basis for the Haggadah ever having been in this port town at this time?)
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JoanP
It took me hours to complete my last post: I was interrupted in the morning and had people drop in in the afternoon (I don't like being dropped in on) but needed to finish the thoughts.
Forgot to thank you for the marvelous pictures in your # 211.
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JOANP
The Catholic Church had reason to be concerned: "There was tension between successive rebelling emperors of the Holy Roman Emperor.."
This was, of course, a threat to the power exercised by the Pope. Many
people, myself included, believe that this power of the Pope in political
arenas did much to corrupt the church. It is hardly surprising that the
emperors/kings, etc. of various nations resented this encroachment on their
own authority.
The persecutions in Spain, France and Portugal seem to be partly the
religious fervor of their kings, and partly their desire to seize the wealth
of the prosperous Jews. The inquisition was different from one country to
another. In Venice, for example, the Doge and the Council of Ten, were
successfully resisting the excesses of the Inquisition. Hence Pope Gregory III
statement….”I am Pope everywhere but in Venice."
Clever of our Ms. Brooks to tease us by leaving some possibilities to our
imagination, isn't it, JOANP. Of course the name Cohain was significant. It
was also subtly left for us to notice or not, and speculate endlessly. :-\
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I don't think we're going to see the Madonna again. That was a cleverly disguised mezuzah, hidden because his parents didn't dare let anyone suspect they were Jewish.
A mezuzah is a scroll containing two biblical passages and the name of God, hand-written according to a strict set of rules, rolled up, and placed in a protective case. If you are strictly observant you will have one at each door, and touch it whenever you go through the door, to remind you of God and His commandments. Here are the rules:
http://www.judaica-guide.com/mezuzah/
Once the soldiers had broken open the Madonna to expose the scroll, there would be no reason for it to be taken along.
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Good morning!
We had some big boom booms last night - lightening too. Quite dramatic. The dog came cowering up into our bed, that's how dramatic it was. This is not a timid terrier!
As I was lying there awake for a while, I got to thinking about this book - and its organization. Not so much the insertion of Hanna's story - back and forth between the historical periods, but rather the way the book is changing hands in each of these periods. Are you finding it difficult to remember who possessed the book, who passed it to whom - in what century? I am.
Does this back and forth in time add to the mystery of the book - or would it have been less confusing (though less mysterious) had the events been organized differently?
Here's a memory test - Do you remember from whom Dona de Serena had procured the manuscript which she put in Rabbi Aryeh's hands for safekeeping?
I'm trying, really trying to read the book as if it is fiction - but there are times, like right now, that I want to know some facts. Such as - do we know the Haggadah, the haggadah text and the illuminated pages were actually put together - in Spain? If this is fiction, I would like to know that - but I get the feeling that there must have been something that inspired Brooks' important episode in Spain.
At the beginning of the "Saltwater" chapter, we learn that the book is in Spain - we learn how the man, David Shoushan, bought the illuminated pages from a deaf-mute child. We won't hear why this child is selling the pages, or where he got them from -until several chapters later when we go back further in time. But we do learn that we are in Spain - in a busy port called Tarragona and the time is 1492. (Did you know all this was going on at the same time that Spain was funding the exploration in the New World? That's something to think about, isn't it? )
During the second half of the 15th century – a difficult period for the Jews of Aragon, as for the whole of Spanish Jewry – Isaac *Arama held rabbinical office in Tarragona. He maintained a yeshivah and fostered observance of the precepts within the community. At the time of the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492 Tarragona was a port of embarkation for the exiles from the kingdom of Aragon. [Tarragona, Spain (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0019_0_19609.html)
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While we are still in Vienna, there were a couple of other things that got my
notice. Vistorini calls Rabbi Judah Azreh “Judah Shu’al”. I could find no ‘shu’al’ or ‘shual’ in any Hebrew dictionary, but Vulpes translates to ‘fox’. Vistorini perceives him as cunning. Doesn’t it make you grin that the priests and bishops sneak into the ghetto of the despised Jews to hear Rabbi Azreh’s stirring sermons….and steal some of his preaching for their own sermons?
I had vaguely thought of the Levant primarily in terms of Lebanon. My education advances! I now know it takes in pretty much all of the Eastern end of the Mediterranean. Also, I have always thought of synagogues as separate structures. I am having trouble visualizing a synagogue at the top of an apartment building, sharing roof space with a dovecote and a chicken coop.
It's not just 'timid terriers' that fear thunder, JOAN. I once saw the damage
done by a terrified Great Dane during a thunder storm. I wasn't sure whether
to wish someone had been with him to calm him, or be glad no one was there
to be torn up with the furniture!
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"Do you remember from whom Dona de Serena had procured the manuscript which she put in Rabbi Aryeh's hands for safekeeping?"
I remembered that she had inherited it from her mother, but my memory had to be jogged to remember that the mother had inherited it from an elderly manservant, born at the time of the expulsion from Spain, whose mother died in a shipwreck, and who came under the protection of Dona de Serena's family as an orphan. Now, in "Saltwater", we learn who that is.
The timing works, but just barely. In 1609 Dona de Serena still hopes to have children. If she is 35, she was born in 1574, so someone born in 1492 would have been 82, and would have had to live to be almost 90 for her to be able to remember his stories. Even with the poor health and life expectancy of the time, that's quite possible.
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Babi, I think you are correct. Shu'al appears to be a jackel, or as some prefer, a fox. I found this little paragraph which helps explain the word and its origins: http://books.google.com/books?id=Rp0NAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA164&lpg=PA164&dq=Shu%E2%80%99al&source=bl&ots=5b_O697wur&sig=0MSqy4f1_W7znb3FqTMytYEk0LY&hl=en&ei=rd91Sr_FJ4Gqtgfa9dGWCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=Shu%E2%80%99al&f=false
Oh, and somewhere I saw Fox News referred to as Shu'al News.
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I like this backward way of telling the story very much. It works well with teasing out the mysteries of what happened to the book. I do have trouble remembering people and keeping things straight, but no more than I usually do. With a complex story like this I always either have to keep a list of characters and events or read each section twice.
It's a beautifully crafted story--really neat and ingenious, holds my interest, and strikes a nice balance in how much is told and how much is left to the imagination.
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Googled shu al and found two meanings - jackal and fox. shu al (http://net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=Shual-) Sly as a fox? That works, doesn't it, Babi, sly and cunning?
Here's a picture of the Vulpes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulpese) , which is " a genus of the Canidae family. It includes the true foxes, although there are species in other genera whose common names include the word "fox".
(http://www.sanlorenzoexpress.com/vulpes.jpg)
I enjoyed listening to the two men sparring back and forth - with the Rabbi usually coming up on top. This seems to injure the priest's pride, doesn't it? We never did address the question - why did Father Vistorini decide the Haggadah should be condemned - aside from his stated reason pointing to the moons of Galileo? I was puzzled at this when I first read it. Just now, I reread the passage -
"Its beauty might one day seduce some unwitting Christian to think well of your reprehensible faith."
I think the priest, the Inquisitor knows this is not grounds for condemning the book, but doesn't he take pleasure in seeing the rabbi reduced to tears on his knees, begging him to save the book. Do you think if the priest had not suddenly realized his roots, in his drunken stupor, that he would have really destroyed the book?
Once again, the Haggadah narrowly escapes destruction...
EDIT - Frybabe - I see just now that you have come up with the shu'al meaning - that is SO funny - Shu'al News - Fox News! Where on earth did you hear that?
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PatH, I am relieved to hear that you are not experiencing difficulty following the Haggadah from city to city, across the seas in all sorts of weather. I am amazed that the real book has survived all this time, under less than archival circumstances! I find I need lots of memory jogging along the way. I'm not complaining, I just wondered if others were finding the need to go back and reread the beginning of previous chapters like I do.
Today we are in Spain...remember the book at arrived in Sarajevo from Venice - somehow. The last we saw of it, it was on Father Vistorini's table and we learned in Vienna that a family named Cohen had sold it to the Museum in 1894.
In the Venice chapter, we learned that the book had come to Dona de Serena - Pat reminds us
that "she had inherited it from her mother, her mother had inherited it from an elderly manservant, born at the time of the expulsion from Spain, whose mother died in a shipwreck, and who came under the protection of Dona de Serena's family as an orphan."
At the end of the Saltwater chapter in Spain, we see the "elderly manservant" born at the time of the expulsion from Spain was in fact Rosa and Reuben's son - BUT his mother Rosa was not the one on the ship with him, was she?
I guess we need to go to the beginning of the chapter and then wait for the NEXT chapter to find out more about this baby and his parentage.
David Ben Shoushan buys the illustrations - all of the pages this boy has to sell him. They are priceless. Don't you wonder where the boy got them? How much did David Ben Shoushan pay for them? The boy is in the company of a black slave? David asks if the boy is a Jew? (Why did he ask this?) "He's circumcised, so he's not Christian, and he doesn't look like a Moor."
So this boy is a Jew - Christians NOT circumcised at this time? This would be one way to tell who is a Jew, who is not...
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My first post rather picky -- was at my doctor's when I read the section on Hannah's mother. I asked him if he could practice in a hospital if he lost his spleen. He said "Yes". Perhaps in the 1960's the answer would have been "No."
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Perhaps not even 90, PAT. I can remember stories from an earlier age than 8.
Especially favorite stories, which a child is likely to demand again and again.
I totally agree with you about the way the book is written. It builds up
anticipation for the next revelation. "Ingenious" is right, in leaving something
to our imagination.
Oh, and somewhere I saw Fox News referred to as Shu'al News.
That's neat, FRYBABE. Personally, I prefer 'fox' to 'jackal', as jackal
seems to have more negative connotations, unsuitable to the respected Rabbi.
It did seem to me that Vistorinis's threat was entirely personal and
vindictive. He was angry with the Rabbi, and upset with his internal turmoil
and suspicions re. his origins. i think he was acting out of spite. I don't
think he threatened to destroy the entire book, tho',..just to delete the
portion he was able to find some objection to. Am I wrong about that? I no
longer have a copy of the book on hand to re-read.
Oh, and I loved the picture of the fox, JOANP. They are such beautiful animals.
KIDSAL, you'll have to refresh my memory on the issue with Hanna's mother.
(I found the name written without the last 'h', but I notice most posters include it.) Anyhoo,...I don't remember, or didn't catch, the idea that she couldn't practice in the hospital if she lost her spleen. Could you tell me exactly what
she said?
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JoanP, I, too, need to go back and reread to jog my memory, but when I do that, the little clues fit well.
Babi, I agree that Vistorini was so hard on the book because he was annoyed with the rabbi (and also because he was getting drunk and unpredictable). At first he says he will burn the book, then he decides to torment the rabbi. He will write Revisto per mi on 3 slips of parchment, and if the rabbi can draw them in order, Vistorini will only cut out the 4 heretical drawings. The rabbi wins (he had noticed an irregularity on one of the slips of parchment that gave him an advantage).
In the end, Vistorini didn't even cut out the 4 pages, since the book is described in 1994 as having all its pages.
What Hanna's mother said was "..doctors who work in hospitals need their spleens. Can't fight infections...."
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I have trouble keeping it all straight and have to go back and read and re-read to get the continuity. However, I depend on all of you to help me keep it straight in my mind. ;D
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Yes, JoanP, one needs to have a healthy spleen to work in any medical field as its your spleen that helps your body to fight infection.
I have tried to keep all of this story together but also have to reread much of it while reading and digesting another chapter. But, its adds to the mystery of the whole story and I like it.
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I'm reading this book for the second time and each time I wished the story of the Haggadah was told going chronologically forward instead of backward. I also wished for links between the chapters so we could follow the Haggadah from its origin to Sarajevo. That might have made it easier to believe that this is simply a work of fiction.
The torture of Renato, son of David Ben Shoushan by the Inquisition was horrible to read. What makes human beings delight in such evil? And this because they found a tefillin in his possession, which he had kept to remind himself of the father he missed and who had disowned him. The Inquisition, because of this clue, knew he had been Jewish even though he had converted to Christianity and had been baptized. And convicted him of "Judaizing".
As we move further into the book and further into history, I'm appalled once again at the number of times Jews have been persecuted and banished from what they thought to be their homes.
And, due to the Balfour Declaration, Jews now have a homeland, although tenuous, which they can call their own.
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Frybabe, I'm still smiling at Shu'al News - and even more at Babi's choice of the synonym for shu'al - fox, sounds better than "Jackal." Jackal News! :D
What do you think, Kidsal? If you need your spleen to fight infection, doesn't it make sense that a doctor who works in a hospital would need hers? Why would that change now? I'm glad you mentioned that scene. I'd forgotten - Mum actually cried - mother and daughter both cried. Hanna kissed her mother's hand. I'd forgotten that!
So if she can't doctor anymore, Mum is facing a bleak future. Perhaps the two of them will get together before we run out of pages, after all.
Someone asked about the spelling of Geraldine Brooks' characters - she consistantly spells them SARAH (with an "h") Heath and HANNA (no "h") Heath.
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Nancy, I found Renato/Reuben's story so full of irony. His father had disowned him - forced the family to regard him as a dead man. Do you find that harsh and intolerant? He had converted to Catholicism willingly - to marry Rosa, hadn't he? Would a Jewish family do this to their first born son today?
Days before the proclamation went out that Jews who converted would not be expelled, Ruti brings her brother the tefillin which you mention here. I looked up "tefillin" -
(http://www.ajudaica.com/GeneralImages/tefillin.jpg)
Choosing Tefillin (http://www.ajudaica.com/guide_tefillin.php)
Can't you imagine what the Inquisitors believed when they laid eyes on this? It is very clear in the book that Reuben only kept the tefillin because it had belonged to his father, whom he has never stopped loving. But the Inquisitors believe it means he is praying and regard - him as a false "converso". Why did they continue to beat and torture him? Why keep him in custody? What is their interest in this young heretic? Wasn't it the ransom money they knew they could get? It is the Spanish Crown, not the Church, that wants the ransom money to fill depleted coffers following the recent war with the Moors. The Church's zeal to put down the heresy in Spain - mostly the Moors'...was a good excuse for collecting ransom from well-heeled Jews. Though Reuben's father is not a wealthy man, those close to the crown know that Uncle Joseph is a rich man. Do you believe that if Uncle Joseph came up with the money, they would let Reuben go?
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JoanP
The story of the haggadah deserved to be told, and GB has told it beautifully with a great deal of information and details.
What makes reading and absorbing the details difficult may be the structure. The narration proceeds on two tracks:
ONE is Hanna's recounting of how and under what circumstances she was entrusted with working on the restoration of the invaluable manuscript from the perspective of the 'here and now', and how her work progresses. It constitutes a FRAME, I believe.
The OTHER part of the book describes the imaginary (and unkowable) journey of the manuscript itself in separate chapters- and, if that were not complex enough, the journey of the haggadah is told in reverse chronology.
Hanna's own life is not nearly as colorful as the historical episodes she so vividly describes. She is edgy and has a tendency to fly off the handle. The love story IMHO is a bit awkward, not really fully fleshed out. Dr. Sarah Heath is an unsympathetic character if ever there was one.
There are still questions left regarding "Wine Stains" and the chapter immediately following it. And here we are in the "Saltwater" chapter, in 1492, the year when the haggadah is known to have originated in Spain - the time of the Inquisition and the expulsion of the Jews. There is no doubt that the Church initiated this dreadful persecution and censorship (which lawted until 1966); the tribunals were staffed by members of the Church. Of course the zealous royals, Ferdinand and Isabella, benefited financially and poured s lot of the money into their endless wars.
Babi. You are right. GB spells Hanna's name without the 'h'. So I follow suit. (My granddaughter is also a Hannah but WITH the 'h'). I'll get back to your earlier question in the morning.
Re your # 226, Kidsal, thet remark about Sarah's spleen gave me pause, too.
This is the passage in the book, the last par. on pg 199 and top of pg. 200 in the paperback.
She looked awful when they wheeled her out of recovery. She had IVs the size of garden hoses in her arm, and one cheek was all bruised and swollen where it must have slammed into the side of the car. She was groggy, but she recognized me straightaway and gave a crooked grin that might have been the most sincere smile she'd ever given me. I took the hand that didn't have the large-bore IV in it.
"Five on this one", I said. "And five on the other one. Surgeon Heath, still in business."
She moaned softly. "Yes, but doctors who work in hospitals need their spleens", she whispered. 'Can't fight infection ..."
Please check Kidsal's # 226 to see what her doctor said.
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I rather like the structure GB employs for the novel. As Traudee just pointed out it has a 'frame' story of Hanna's professional life in conservation and within that frame there are several stories.
Moving backwards in time is a time-honoured method of discovering history and GB's method can be likened to the family historian where the genealogist starts from what is actually known and slowly works backwards in time to discover what came before and trace the family history. GB is doing just that with the Haggadah - working back from one known situation to the previous one. The Haggadah's presence in Sarajevo, in Vienna, in Venice and then in Spain are known facts, the general historical facts of the time periods are also known and GB adds a plausible fictional story to the mix. I think it works and works well.
Further to that we also have the parallel story of Hanna's past being told in a similar manner - moving from the present into the past as Hanna tells us of her adulthood and career, then her childhood with an apparently uncaring mother, the discovery of who her father was and her welcome into his family - her family - and her mother's ultimate betrayal of her father by doing nothing to stop the bleeding and thus save his life. It was a betrayal of her Hippocratic oath as well.
For an artist to wake up blind would be a dreadful thing - it would change his life - perhaps for the better. Maybe he had already achieved all he could in art and could take another path. Mum had no right to play God.
There are unresolved matters here and there but I find that even that rings true to life, to history and genealogy too, where everything is not necessarily explained or clear cut. It enhances the book by leaving our minds to contemplate the possible answers.
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"..doctors who work in hospitals need their spleens. Can't fight infections.."
Thanks, PAT. That makes sense. My daughter has a low IGA(?) count, or some such thing, which means a low resistance to infection. She has been warned not to visit her friends in the hospital, among other things.
What makes human beings delight in such evil?
That is the big question, isn't it, ABERLAINE? It seems to me that this
section of the book brings that issue to the forefront.
“You’ve got a society where people tolerate difference, like Spain in
the Convevencia, and everything’s humming along: creative, prosperous.
The somehow this fear, this hate, this need to demonize “the other”---
it just sort of rears up and smashes the whole society. Inquisition, Nazis,
extremist Serb nationalists…same old, same old.”
Reading about such times of oppression is always painful. People could be destroyed for the most trivial of reasons, with not the slightest chance of a fair hearing. “It could be some trifling thing: that her mother had choked on a piece of ham, that her father had changed his shirt on a Friday, that she…had lit candles too early in the evening.”
"Do you believe that if Uncle Joseph came up with the money, they would let Reuben go?"
I think so, PAT. It's simply good business. If you don't keep your end of
the bargain, people will stop doing business with you. Release the man, and
the next family will pay ransom, too.
I agree, GUMTREE. Taking the clue and following it back,..that's what makes
this all so exciting to me.
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“You’ve got a society where people tolerate difference, like Spain in
the Convevencia, and everything’s humming along: creative, prosperous."
Babi, we have seen the little Haggadah threatened in such a period of prosperity in each of the episodes, haven't we? People have developed a comfort zone with their neighbors - their differences have blurred. Have you noticed too that when there is such cultural closeness, religious differences seem to be less important among the elders in the community? It is the young who yearn for more - Lola sneaks out to the Young Guardians' meetings - and out of Sarajevo, Dona de Serena who hopes to take the book out of Venice to Sarajevo - And now we see Ruti - secretly studying Kabbalah and Zohar - Ruti who will finally escape Tarragona with the precious book in tow.
Have you noticed that the Haggadah's survival depends on women? Let's watch for this in the remaining chapters.
Traudee, please feel free to refer to any unanswered questions from preceding chapters as we move ahead - or back in time. ;) It appears that GB has left some questions unanswered purposely.
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Gum, can you tell the factual historical background - that places the creation of the Haggadah in Spain? I can't find it? Is it the folio pages themselves, made from sheepskins that have been found only in Spain?
Finally, we understand how this particular haggadah is accompanied by the illustrations - unlike all others. (The haggadah pages and the illustrations are both done on the same sheepskin.) The Haggadah was not illustrated by a Jewish artist - as has been suspected.
David Shoushan provides the text to accompany the illustrations which he has purchased from a boy, accompanied by a slave - the boy has just embarked (from where? ) I thought it was interesting why Shoushan did not hestitate including these illustrations in the Haggadah because they were a gift for his brother's son. He knows his brother whould be more interested in the beautiful artwork, than in the propriety of including images in a Jewish haggadah. How does he know this? Would he have included illustrations in a haggadah for his own son?
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My doctor, a pulmonologist, works in Salt Lake City and is associated with all the hospitals there. Perhaps it is a state-by-state thing, or different in other countries, but he says it is no longer applicable to practicing in a hospital.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/peoplebkcvr.JPG) | You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath, Geraldine Brooks' edgy Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work. How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 14th century?
The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then, into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way. This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain. |
Discussion Schedule:
July 15-19 ~ Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
Sarajevo, 1940
July 20-24 ~ Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96
July 25-July 31 ~ ~ Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
Hanna, Boston, 1996
August 1 - August 5 ~ Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
Hanna, London, Spring, 1996
August 6-August 10~ #5 ~ White Hair, Seville, 1480;
Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996
August 11-15 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
Hanna, Gunumeleng, 2002
August 16-August 20 Afterword | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmapsm5.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmaplg5.jpg)
(click twice to really enlarge) |
Topics for Discussion
August 6-August 10 ~ "White Hair" ~ Seville, 1480
1. This is the story of Zahra (the Moor) who is brought from Africa to Seville to serve three very different masters. Does GB convey the experience of slavery vividly? How or how not?
2. How does GB convey the atmosphere of Seville in 1480? What do the stories of Zahra’s first two masters (who are not connected to the Haggadah) add to the book?
4. What do we learn about artistic technique and the lives of artists in this section?
5. Based on what we learned in the last section, what do you think happened to Zahra?
6. Is this story a plausible explanation of the presence of a Black woman in the illustrations in the real Hagaddah? Why or why not?
Hanna ~ Sarajevo, Spring '96
1. When Hanna looks at the exhibit surrounding the Haggadah, she says (p.320) “the point- that diverse cultures influence and enrich one another –was made with silent eloquence.” Has GB made this point with “eloquence”? What are some of the ways she has (or hasn’t) done so?
2.Hanna’s accusation of forgery adds one more plot twist. Is this effective dramatically?
3. If you were Hanna, what would be your reaction to your colleagues’ lack of support? Would you have pressed the issue?
Relevant Links:
Geraldine Brooks - Background information (http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s2446434.htm); Sarajevo Haggadah (http://www.haggadah.ba/); Early Haggadah Manuscripts (http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html); Illuminated Manuscripts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09620a.htm); Brief History of Illuminating Manuscripts (http://www.historicpages.com/texts/mshist.htm); Around Sevlle Image Gallery (http://gospain.about.com/od/seville/ig/Around-Seville-IMAGE-GALLERY/);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com ), & Traudee (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
Don: Well, I couldn't stand the suspense and stayed up most of the night and finished the book.
Now I will go back and re-read the chapters under discussion and try to submit something meaningful.
In the meantime, there is one item that jumped out at me and that is the resolution of the clasp mystery---at least from Hannah's point of view. I had predicted earlier that there would be no further mention of the clasps because they had been reshaped into something else. I was wrong of course but the story's credibility of someone looking at an old picture and identifying a pair of earrings as being fashioned from the missing clasps is a stretch for me.
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We're meeting a remarkable series of strong women who manage to get education or skills beyond what is usual for their sex, and make their way through great dangers. Lola is one, and now we meet Ruti, who studies the Kabbalah, manages to save Rosa's son, and has the knowledge and determination to conduct the rituals that will make him a Jew, then flee with him. In the next section we'll meet another one. Sarah Heath is strong and a trailbreaker too, but she seems to have parked her humanity along the way.
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DON: I agree factually. Dramatically, it works. We find out more about what happens to the "People of the Book" (and the things of the book) than would ever happen in real life. But it does keep us looking for those little facts.
This is the section where GB explains the title:(p.264-5, Hanna speaking)"I wanted to give a sense of the people of the book, the different hands that had made it, used it, protected it". Perhaps that is a question for later. But when I read it, I started thinking about whether GB had succeeded in doing that for me. The answer I came up with was "almost". What is missing, for me, is the pwople who used it, the generations of families sitting around the table, celebrating the seder with this beautiful book. A Haggadah is almost part of a family, recognized by the family and part of its happiest moments. That is missing.
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Don :)
JoanP,
According to Wikipedia, the Sarajevo Haggadah originated in Barcelona in 1350, NOT in 1492. I am sorry. GB's book
has had an effect on me !
Briefly back to "WINE STAINS".
This segment is affecting and wholly credible. The psychological portraits of the priest and the rabbi are drawn perfectly, as are all of GB's characterizations, though not all the characters are likable. But that only confirms GB's marvelous gift for observation.
Take the priest : we see him as insecure, feeling guilty because of his imbibing, angry at the sharp-eyed altar boy ("from a good family") who notices the "weakness", and scornful of the sneering servant at the inquisitorial office, who reports that the wine was already locked up. Vistorini comes across as a shuffling old man. He's been in office for 17 years. In all that time Rome had not promoted him from parish priest at least to Monsignor (which would have been logical). V. is quite able to expound on biblical issues and enjoys debating with the rabbi (which might be more satisfying than "preaching to the choir", perhaps?)
An example of what heresies he expunges without hesitation is given on pg. 151
The rabbi: a scholar with an extraordinary gift for oratory, famous for his "silver-tongued biblical exegesis" (pg. 152), whose sermons attract Catholic clergy to the ghetto not only from Venice but the "terra ferma' in Treviso and Padua. The rabbi is a caring father, husband and compassionate leader of his flock. And he too has a weakness --- errare humanum est = to err is human.
One of the subtle nuances GB weaves ito her story: When Vistorini happens on the rabbi early that morning after mass; the rabbi hasn't seen him yet. His head is down, his back stooped, constantly alert to indignities that could be hurled or heaped on him. As the men begin to walk and talk, , the rabbi slowly straightens up. Can't we just see the picture and feel with the rabbi?
The final confrontation :
Vistorini finds "nothing against the church in the TEXT ... but there is, I regret to say, grave heresy in the illuminations." Pg. 183.
One of the illuminations is the representation of earth as an orb. "I might REDACT the offending pages --- four pages", says the priest/ (Which ones? worries the rabbi).
When Vistorini asks WHERE the rabbi had won the haggadah in the alleged game of chance, the rabbi blurts out "Apulia" (= an italian state SE of Rome). All the while the priest has been freely refilling his glass from the rabbi's wineskin and getting more inebriated, and also becoming angrier --- because he could not refute the rabbi's argument and hated losing one as important as this. As a desperate last resort he suggests gambling for the haggadah. We know the outcome, and we know that the priest struck the rabbi, who stumbled out.
Left alone (pg. 188), Vistorini has an epiphany:
The carved Madonna in the niche to the right of the doorstep. The child's hand, enfolded in a larger, calloused one that guided the tiny fingers to touch the polished wood of her toe."
The carved Madonna had a false bottom where the mezuzah was hidden.
An experience Vistorini could never have anticipated.
We know he affixed his signature to the manuscript, put his head down on the haggadah on his desk and wept.
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Saltwater: this chapter moved me deeply and even more so the second time around. The depravity of those who inflicted such cruelty is something I have difficulty in trying to comprehend. I had the same feeling when I visited Auschwitz.
The links which have been provided here go a long way in helping me to find a deeper understanding of the story. I can see now that the Granada connection is one on which the Jew-haters could base their reasons for their vile acts. The Jews had aided and abetted the Moors in taking and keeping Granada for so many years. When Spain took Granada in 1492 it was payback time for the Jews who had lived peaceably there for centuries. Just as Hitler sought ethnic cleansing so too did the regime of Ferdinand and Isabella and the Jews paid the price.
I am puzzled by Reuben taking the phylacteries after having converted. They are not small items easily concealed and he must have known the consequences of being caught having them in his possession.
GB gave us a vivid portrayal of domestic life shared by David and his family which really set us up for the brutality which followed.
We have now seen two strong and determined young women whose instincts for survival transcend the mundane efforts of mere mortals. And when Ruti saved her nephew, and by her ritual assured the boy of a Jewish heritage, she enacted the ultimate irony of redeeming a child of a Jew-hating family and restored him to his proper destiny.
The two women, Lola and Ruti now cause me to make a comparison between them and Hannah’s mother. Is she a brave person? Does she have redeeming qualities along the lines of those we attribute to Lola and Ruti? I am inclined to think not. She is selfish and self-centered and totally lacking in the caring qualities of the two young women.
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JoanK, somehow I don't see the illuminated manuscript on sheepskin parchment passed around the table at family celebrations either. It seems more of a coveted piece of artwork - always in danger of being stolen, locked up secure? Perhaps Dona de Serena's family - or the Cohen family used it -
The book reminds me of the women who managed to survive the struggles that threatened their existence.
Can't you just picture Ruti with the baby boy - and the priceless book trying to get on the ship alone with others who had been expelled? GB has left the shipwreck to our imagination - Do you think Ruti drowned? The story was that the boy's mother drowned. That had to have been Ruti.
I have a question about the boy's Jewish-ness. By the fact of his circumcision does the child merely appear to be a Jew? Christians were not circumcised at this time - Though Reuben and Ruti were Jewish, this child's mother, Rosa, was not. Does this mean that the child is not truly a Jew? If it was thought that Ruti was his mother, I can see where he could have been considered a Jewish child.
Don, I think Ruti brought the phylacteries to Reuben - shortly before his arrest. She's been a brave and a busy girl. What motivated her? (Does anyone know what Kabbalah and Zohar were/are?)
The two women, Lola and Ruti now cause me to make a comparison between them and Hanna’s mother
. That is interesting, Don. I will have to think about that.
For an artist to wake up blind would be a dreadful thing - it would change his life - perhaps for the better. Maybe he had already achieved all he could in art and could take another path.
Gum, perhaps we can say the same of Sarah Heath - if she cannot continue to work in the hospital, perhaps she can take another path? Kidsal, I'm wondering how one can fight infection without a spleen...
More tomorrow - too much here to think straight. You are all wonderful - your comments and insight dazzle!
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Ruti had said that she was going to say that the baby's mother (Rosa) drowned in a shipwreck. So it's left open: whether Ruti drowned or whether she arrived safely and told that story.
Ruti explains what she is doing: I assume it's correct. since the babies mother was Christian, the baby isn't automatically Jewish: he needs a ritual cleaning. That is why she immerses him in the ocean, and the salt water gets on the book.
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The Kabbulah:"(Hebrew, “received tradition”), generically, Jewish mysticism in all its forms; specifically, the esoteric theosophy that crystallized in 13th-century Spain and Provence, France, around Sefer ha-zohar (The Book of Splendor), referred to as the Zohar, and generated all later mystical movements in Judaism."
Acarta Encyclopedia.
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Have you noticed too that when there is such cultural closeness, religious differences seem to be less important among the elders in the community?
JOANP, isn't that as it should be? Maybe that is because I am
now an 'elder', but religious differences should not divide a community and
destroy cultural closeness. And it seems to me young people are usually
less inclined to prejudice. Still, as we grow older, it falls to the younger
generation to protect and preserve those things we most value.
RADIOMAN, apparently Reuben took the phylacteries solely as a memento of
a Father he loved. I can understand that. As to your assessment of Sarah
Heath, I have to agree.
Is it because the child would not be born a Jew that David turns his back on his pregnant daughter in law? Is this religious intolerance in a way - to disown one's son for religious reasons?
Disowning one's son is very harsh, and is much less likely to happen
now. To be a Jew is perhaps unique in that it is not only a religion, it is a national identity. It is this identity that kept the Jewish people from being
absorbed and lost during their long dispersion. Their tenacity is what kept them
alive as a people, and goes far to explain the harsh reaction to conversion. Not
only Reuben but Reuben's children would be lost, as Jewish descent was through the mother.
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Saltwater: this chapter moved me deeply and even more so the second time around. The depravity of those who inflicted such cruelty is something I have difficulty in trying to comprehend. I had the same feeling when I visited Auschwitz.
I had a similar reaction, Don, in fact I had a lot of trouble reading parts of this chapter. I have a very strong stomach when it comes to blood and guts (the surgical details that Hanna wouldn't let her mother tell her wouldn't have bothered me) but I can't stand descriptions of cruelty and brutality, and the torture scenes really got to me.
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..."religious differences should not divide a community and
destroy cultural closeness. And it seems to me young people are usually
less inclined to prejudice."
Babi, I agree with you - - does it also seem that the young are less inclined to follow in the religion of their parents? And yet, it is the young who risk their lives throughout this book, to preserve the Haggadah - to preserve their heritage. I'm thinking here of Ruti now. Wasn't she wonderfully described? - "a dull brown thing." Poor Sparrow. No one knows that she is also a mystical practitioner and has explored her spirituality to a degree that not many, if any, of her peers have attained.
Her mother, angry Miriam, "as tough as an old saddle" - had no patience with the "dull brown thing." Don, I see the Hanna/Sarah Heath parallel here, the critical mother, the daughter who can never live up to her mother's expectations.
Ruti is excluded from social activities with observant Torah families (because of her brother) and now carries on the affair with the married Micha - father of two little kids. Certainly this would further exclude her from any hope of finding an honorable husband. And yet it is Ruti who will carry on the faith, the book and the child into a new land. I sure hope she didn't drown in a shipwreck, Joan.
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A few thoughts about Hanna - in the Tate. The tears and sobs seem to be the first time she has mourned the loss of a father she had known nothing about. Aaron Sharansky seemed so real, I had to look him up to see if in fact he was real. I knew he wasn't - but the Francis Bacon painting of the man walking off into the wind with a dog at his feet - may have been this one. I can see where it might have had such an effect on Hanna.
(http://www.tate.org.uk/britain/exhibitions/francisbacon/images/works/ID_023_lg.jpg)
She feels much better the next day after this outburst...and goes off to meet the scientist from the Forensics unit who has studied the little white hair Hanna had found in the binding of the Haggadah. It was a cat hair - and it hadn't been shed. It had been cut. Also, dyed. That must have been some exotic cat!
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Since it was left open, I'm going to believe that Ruti and her nephew bought passage on a ship and made it safely to land where the boy had his brit (religious ceremony of circumcision) and was named.
Just call me a hopeless romantic. We do know the haggadah survived, so why not its carriers?
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That is, indeed an interesting painting. This book is taking us to all kinds of places, isn't it?
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We’re ready to go on (or rather back) to Seville in 1480. In 1480, Spain was in the middle of the Reconquista, a time when the Christian armies were trying to take all of Spain back from the African Muslims (who had invaded Spain many centuries before). This would end in 1492, when the last Muslim stronghold (Grenada) fell, and the Muslims were expelled along with the Jews.
But in 1480, some Muslem leaders were left. Some Muslim leaders who had been defeated, still held power locally, but were required to pay tribute to the Christians.
GB shows us a Seville ruled by an emir who has refused to pay the tribute, hence is always off fighting the Christians, and in danger of being overthrown. I was unable to confirm the existence of such an emir in Seville in 1480. (Seville had been conquered by Christians in 1248 and was the de facto Capitol of Catholic Spain in 1478 http://www.aboutsevilla.com/sevilla/history.asp): perhaps he is based on another historic figure, with the time or place changed. But real or not, the emir is real enough to our character, the Moorish slave.
She serves three masters, in three different locations. First is the artist's workshop. In the picture below, if you remove the modern people and squint a little, the street could be the one where Zahra worked in an upstairs room:
http://www.traveldeal-s.com/admin/images/seville-spain.jpg
But the most unusual setting is the Emir’s palace. Whether the emir is real or not, the palace is!! Zahra describes it (p.294) “...we passed from the portico into rooms whose magnificence has stolen the words from the mouths of poets”.
Does it steal your words? (I hope not!)
http://www.sevillaonline.es/english/seville-city-centre/alcazar-palace.htm
And the Jewish doctor, who takes her from the emir's palace, probably lived on one of these streets in the Medieval Jewish section of Seville:
http://photos-seville.com/santa-cruz-neighbourhood.php
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This book does send us on some strange journeys. A week ago, I knew no Spanish history: now I'm cussing because Google doesn't give me more information about Medieval emirs in Spain. Don't the historians on the internet realize that everyone is going to want to know that?!?
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This book does send us on some strange journeys. A week ago, I knew no Spanish history: now I'm cussing because Google doesn't give me more information about Medieval emirs in Spain. Don't the historians on the internet realize that everyone is going to want to know that?!?
Indeed, how shortsighted of them.
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Since it was left open, I'm going to believe that Ruti and her nephew bought passage on a ship and made it safely to land where the boy had his brit (religious ceremony of circumcision) and was named.
Just call me a hopeless romantic. We do know the haggadah survived, so why not its carriers?
Aberlaine, one thing I particularly like about this book is that Brooks gets it pretty much right as to how much to leave to our imagination. Too much and it's corny, too little and it's frustrating. We know the child survived, and it's totally up to us to decide what happened to Ruti, but if she hadn't survived for some while, it's hard to believe the child would still have the Haggadah to bequeath to Dona Serena's mother.
JoanP, thanks for the Bacon. It fits very well, I think you're right.
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Oh wait...while we're still in London, I can't resist one more link to the Tate before we embark for Seville. Well, actually, Arthur Boyd's work was not in the Tate at all , was it- this bummed Hanna. Not a single Arthur Boyd in the place. Gumtree, this is for you - an Australian artist -
Arthur Boyd's Artwork (http://www.evabreuerartdealer.com.au/boyda_grph.html) I understand he is quite well known in the antipodes. Do you like his work?
Isn't it funny that Hanna was drawn to art and painting - restoration, etc....without knowing anything about her father? It was in the genes!
More about art coming up - and the beautiful illustrations of the Haggadah. I love the way the themes spill over into each new chapter, don't you?
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JoanP
I find it hard to tear myself away from the characters in "Saltwater".
Now to your questions.
1. GB possibly chose Tarragona because of her plans for the haggadah. Tarragona was founded by the Romans who named it Tarraco Colonia Iulia Urbs Triumphalis Tarraco. The emperor Augustus wintered there after a victorius campaign, and one honorific of Tarragona became Colonia Iulia Victrix Tarraconensis.
5. North African Muslims ("Moors") invaded Spain in 711 and went on to conquer several Spanish kingdoms (but not all). Over the next centuries successive Muslim dynasties reigned there. They called it Al Andalus. At this time in the eighth century, a Jewish community was established in Granada; trade relations began and flourished.
With the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella, their respective kingdoms were united; their power grew exponentially, and they wanted the Moors out. Numerous wars were fought. Spain had the support and encouragement of the Catholic Church. The Moors were on the losing side. Granada was their last stand. They capitulated in 1492. Then the Crown issued a proclamation for the expulsion of the Jews, as described in the chapter.
3. In comparison with his brother Joseph, David is a poor man. Nevertheless David wants to make his nephew, Joseph's son, a respectable wedding gift, something special.
He sees the illuminations and buys them at once, though the family can ill afford it. He himself will undertake the writing of a haggadah.
7. Ruti would like to study texts that were held unsuitable for girls. Her father will never allow her access to his library. But Micha, the bookbinder, has these books, too, and she approaches him. He is "a young man grown too soon old," who becomes nervous whenever his wife enters his workshop. The wife, we learn, "is frail and drab, often ill, worn out by the bearing of children, several of whom always seem to be trailing after her, crying." Micha does not believe Ruti's ruse, he realizes what a transgression this is, but he agrees - for a price.
When Ruti comes upon Rosa in labor, she doesn't know the first thing. Her mother had been close-mouthed about "matters of the body". I'm not sure whether we can call this an affair. She is fifteen, has been an obedient daughter, a helpmate with hard work, and she was emotionally a little impoverished. But she was made of stern material !
Allow me to say that the description of the seduction, the lovers' last meeting and the birthing is a bit to graphic for me.
8. Reuben converted voluntarily. He promised Rosa he would. Her parents were dead-set against the marriage.
It could never have been easy to abandon one's own faith, then or now, for that matter. I always look at the wedding annlouncements in the Sunday NYT. In a number of ceremonies when one if Jewish and the other Christian, each chooses his/her own religious representative, who then both officiate.
Will move forward tomorrow.
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I obediently squinted at the street in Seville..and loved the cheek-to-cheek
buildings...but couldn't help wondering if the 15th century streets would
have been so clean. The palace of Alcazar is marvelous. The Santa Cruz area
doesn't look bad at all; I imagine it has been prettified since it's days as
the Jewish sector. Thanks so much for the pictures, JOANK.
Your comments about the Christians, Muslims and Jews reminded me of the quote from Ben Shushan: … “The Christians raise the armies, the Muslims raise the buildings, and the Jews raise the money.” I suppose it held true enough at the time. At other times, I think the positions change. There have certainly been times when the Christians (America?) and the Muslims (as in Saudi Arabia?) have 'raised the money'.
"..if she hadn't survived for some while, it's hard to believe the child would still have the Haggadah to bequeath to Dona Serena's mother."
Good point, PatH. I, too, want to believe Ruti survived, and this certainly
suggests she did.
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I just reread the link to the Sarajevo Haggadah and found an interesting phrase concerning its "provenance".
Here 'tis:
"since there are two coats of arms in the bottom corners, one representing a rose (shoshan) and the other a wing (elazar)? Perhaps we will never learn." (Sarajevo Haggadah)
Does anyone suppose that the clasps that are described here in this book under the chapter entitled, "The Feathers and a Rose", are actually the two coats of arms described in the text about the Haggadah? So, that would definitely make that chapter fiction? And well done by our author! Very clever!
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JoanP You must have known it was my birthday today though I'm not sure whether an Arthur Boyd would be my ideal gift - hard to live with - but then I could sell it off for $million ++
Boyd is indeed well known here as is his family. He came from 5 generations of artists and each generation has had several recognised artists practising in different fields - Arthur combined painting, woodcuts and sculpture.
His paintings vary in size from quite small ones 18" x 24" to the massive ones of 6 - 8 or 10 feet and more. He used a very vibrant palette and was the first artist I thought of when GB first tells us that Hanna's father was an artist. -for me something about her description of her father's painting conjured up Boyd's use of colour and his massive canvases.
Boyd's work is very often mythical and allegorical and once seen is never forgotten perhaps because there is so much meaning within the painting which is not easily understood.
His old home at Bundanon is now an artist's retreat and eligible artists can receive a grant to live on the property for specific periods in order to develop their work - oh to be 50 years younger....
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Oh, Gum! Happy happy birthday! Let's all sing! Your special day - how did I know that? For today, my birthday wish - that you feel like a 50 year old!
(http://www.google.com/images?q=tbn:GaDbkLdib7sb6M::bloomingbritain.com/images/91301%2540%252520F%2526B%252520BdaySBlns%252520Star.jpg)
THanks for the information on Arthur Boyd - I enjoyed his paintings from what I could see of them - and did note some resemblance to the description of Aaron Sharansky's work - especially the one that had hung in the Heaths' dining room!
Isn't the Internet and amazing gift? To have so much at our fingertips - mind boggling!
It is amazing to me that these structures still stand after so centuries - that one can still walk the streets, touch the buildings ... and if a trip is not possible, here we are sitting in front of our computers, looking at the photos JoanK has found for us to examine - and imagine how Seville must have looked to the young slave kidnapped from Africa!
I love the way the slave's story is narrated - in first person. Hearing the sounds of the streets of Seville, with the sack covering his eyes. Smell the smells. Can't you just taste the sherbet? I think I am going to take advantage of the abundant peach crop - and try my hand at sherbet. I've never made sherbet. Is pomegranate syrup available?
We learn right off that the slave is a Muslim, whose father had been an important man. More bloody, heartless violence, the father slaughtered as his child looked on. Kidnapped by the Banu Marin and sold into the service of Hoorman. Who was Banu Marin? A Berber? The Berbers were preying on the Moors? Weren't Berbers Moors? Were Berbers and Moors Muslim? Oh, my history is woefully limited! So Banu Marin sold the child into slavery - to Hoorman?
Is Hoorman a Jew? Is this the source of embarassment - for a Muslim to be the slave of a Jew?
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Before we leave Saltwater - I was intrigued by the description of Ben Shoushan's working space...
Their house, like most in the Kahal, was a tiny tilted thing, just two rooms perched one above the other, so Ben Shoushan had to work outdoors, even in the chill of winter. It was barely ten paces from the street door to the house, and the space was crammed with vats of skins soaking in lime, and others stretched on frames waiting for the few pale beams of sunlight that would slowly dry them. There were skins still thick with their fat and blood vessels, awaiting the careful parings of his rounded blade. But he had a small pile of scraped skins, and these he sorted carefully, looking for those of mountain sheep, that matched the parchments of the illuminations. When he has selected the perfect skins, he set Ruti to work, rubbing them smooth with pumice and chalk
For the reader this is a reiteration working methods we see in a passage in the first chapter when Hanna drives to woop woop and the abbatoir in search of a meter of calf's intestine and how she needed it because If you are going to work with five hundred year old materials, you have to know how they were made five hundred years ago and then she describes how her hands are not the prettiest sight - chapped, wattled across the back...ruddy and peeling from scouring the fat off cow gut with a pumice stone
No doubt Ruti's hands would be showing signs of wear and tear even at her early age.
To prepare his writing material Ben Shoushan was using methods which were age-old even then as the following verse shows:
How to Begin
To make a poem, catch a goat,
Draw a knife across its throat.
When all life has left the creature,
Skin it; dip its hide in water.
Add old lime and stir the pot
Till the mixture seems to clot.
Then throw the clotted stuff away
And add fresh water every day
For a week, in winter more.
When the water’s clean and clear,
Make a frame and stretch the skin,
Set well away from heat and sun.
Let it dry, then moisten it
And scrape the skin when it is wet.
On the flesh side of the skin,
Pour fine pumice, rub it in.
Now make the skin tight in the frame.
And wait a day before you trim
The vellum you have made.
Then scan the sky for raven, goose or swan
(Some bird of size that does not sing)
And pluck a feather from a wing.
A left-wing feather if you can
Because such feathers fit the hand.
For ink, you need the bearberry,
And bark stripped from a willow tree.
Boil the mixture. When you spill
A drop that forms a little ball,
The ink is done. The vellum waits
The issue of the murdered goat,
The plundered raven, swan and tree,
The music of the bearberry.
This piece comes from a Recipe Book by Ari Borgilsson, in his 12th century Book of the Icelanders. It was rendered into English by Leonard Woolf who took it from a 14th Century manuscript copy that had been written using a very black carbon ink which was still in good condition. It is not known whether it was Bearberry Ink but the Icelanders used the bearberry to make their ink. Borgilsson was known as 'Ari the Learned' and his book was the first attempt to write down Icelandic history.
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Oh, GUM: that's amazing!! I'll never look at a page of paper the same way again!!
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BABI: " couldn't help wondering if the 15th century streets would
have been so clean".
I agree. I almost added sprinkle some dirt around. We don't have time to reproduce the grime that probably covered the streets.
Those pictues of Seville really make me want to visit Spain. Everything I know about it is from our wonderful Spanish Seniorlearn participants, and from a DVD called "Guitarra! A musical journey through Spain" (sp.) which tells the history of guitar music in Spain with Julean Bream the guitarest, accompanied by wonderful film of Spain: the scenery, the towns, the architecture, the art, the people, flamenco, bullfights (I closed my eyes) and on and on. You see much too much of Bream, and it's much too much for one sitting (or even two), but if you like guitar music, or if you want to see Spain, it's great. Netflix has it.
The photographs don't do justice to the tile work. I don't remember now if our palace is in it, but the Alhambra (near Seville) is, and many other fantastic places (I'm running out of adjectives).
But the earliest guitar work known is from the 1500s, after our adventure. So back to 1480.
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Gumtree, What a marvelous poem. Thank you for sharing.
Comment on "Saltwater": I too was absolutely horrified about the tortures of the Inquisition. The first time I read the book, I read this chapter entirely. This time, I just skipped over the torture spots. I just didn't need to read them again.
Also, I cannot understand how Hanna's mother could keep the knowledge of her father and his whole family from her all those years. She is truly a heartless, selfish woman and seems to be a rotten kind of a mother who is concerned only with her own wants and needs.
I am going to read "White Hair" this afternoon. I am looking forward to it.
Thanks for all those pictures of Spain. I just love the architecture. It'll be easier to picture the locations now.
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GUMTREE: forgot to say HAPPY BIRTHDAY. LEOS ROCK!!
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JoanP
Thank you for posting the pictures of Seville. The entire region of Andalucia is scenic. It would be wonderful if we could view also Tarragona and Granada to complete our virtual tour of the sites mentioned in the book. There are good pictures of the legendary Alhambra, the huge fortress the Moors built.
Gum special thanks for that glorious poem.
For you it's already Friday morning; sorry my birthday wishes are a day late. :(
"A White Hair" is a fascinating chapter. GB has given free rein to her marvelous imagination.
The chapter begins with a painter who has been "in the service of a Jew" for years and tells us "We do not feel the sun here. Here, the stone and tile are cool always, even at midday. Light steals in among us like an enemy, ... It is hard to do my work in such light."
Except for that, there is an atmosphere of tranquility and harmony. This is all the reader gleans from the first 1-1/2 pages. Then there's a flashback to the time when, the painter was fourteen, the world changed.
The valued child of an important man was sold into bondage by traders, blind-folded, and taken to "the pavilion of the book". The blindfold is taken off. This otherwise undefined building contains a studio for calligraphers, a studio for painters, a workshop with rows of seated figures none of whom turns around. The master is a man called "Hooman" who sneers, "So you claim to be a mussawir?" A test is set : to paint a garden with foliage and flowers on a corn of rice within two days.
Another quick flashback informs us of the past; family life; devotion to the father, Ibrahim al-Tarek, an expert in plants for their medicinal value, pioneer in applying them for healing; apprenticeship and growing expertise in drawing plants.
(This reminded me of our discussion of the novel My Name is Red by Nobel Prize winner Orham Pamuk about Persian art, and especially miniaturists.)
Having failed the test, the young painter is sent to the "preparers of the ground" = a group of painters and calligraphers impaired by weakening eye sight or unsteady hands. After three months there is blow-up with an old man, an iconoclast, which ends that stage of learning.
There's a new beginning, personal attention from Hooman, hints and observations on what hair makes the finest brushes, and personal tutelage in portrait painting in his private studio. The work our painter produces is so good that Hooman has high hopes and plans for him. "An unexpected opportunity has presented itself", he says one day, concerning an appointment by the emir, "and I believe you are suitable, but such a person must, of course be cut ". Our painter faints and is discovered to be a young woman.
But she doesn't have a name, yet.
There is a great deal more before we learn (on pg. 312), at the end of the chapter, that the doctor, her friendly master, had
given her the name Zahra, and that she was well pleased.
In "Saltwater" GB had presented Ferdinand and Isabella and the infamous Inquisitor Torquemada himself.
Now, in "A White Hair", is the emira, Nura, the young queen Isabella of Castile?
And isn't it even more exciting and auspicious to learn that Zahra was invited to celebrate the feasts with the doctor and his wife, and that she painted the scene? The very one in the haggadah?
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Hey, very sharp of you, ANNIE. By the time I read about the clasps, I had
forgotten all about the details of the cover.
GUM, where do you find marvelous things like a 12th century Icelandic recipe
book?!! Generations of craftsmen must have treasured something like that.
Here, finally, we find out how the darkskinned woman appeared in the painting
of the Jewish family celebrating a Seder. How wonderfully imaginative an
explanation. I admiration for Ms. Brooks continues to grow.
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Ann, aha - the rose and the butterfly! We see the beginnings of Brooks' inspiration in these details, which are slowly revealed as we move along in this discussion! Fiction - based on fact! Thanks!
Gum, marvelous find - the poem. In that case, the poet found a goat on which to make the parchment and then the poem! The artist's illuminations were done on sheepskin - and then the creator of the haggadah matched with sheepskin - a sheep found only in the mountains - a sheep which became extinct back in the 14th century. I'm going to go find that source again - if I can...to be sure I'm remembering the details correctly.
Have you seen the illuminated page which contains the painting of the black serving girl? I think it appears on page 4 of the haggadah - again something I'd better verify. This is from memory - Here's the illuminated page - not sure which colors are more authentic-
(http://www.greenchairpress.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/people_of_the_book.jpg) (http://danwymanbooks.com/hag/sarajevo.jpg)
Babi - I agree - this is Brooks' imagination at work - at its best, I think! Not only has she used it to explain the serving girl's appearance at the table, BUT she has identified the artist - the mussawir - as a Moor - a dark skinned Moor and a woman! I loved that! From the start of the White Hair chapter, we get an introduction to the gender identity - the rape scene was harsh, of course, but what if the slave had actually been a boy? Talk about harsh!
The servant at the seder table is a black maid. The captive slave is ashamed to be the slave of a Jew! I think Brooks must have enjoyed writing this section - more than any of the others! She's addressed so many of her favorite themes here! I really enjoyed it!
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Good thing I went back to check my memory - AND the facts -
The Oldest Sephardic
Haggadah
Circa 1350
Considered the most beautiful Jewish illuminated manuscript in existence, and the oldest Sephardic Haggadah, the Sarajevo Haggadah, was produced in Barcelona, Spain. It was written on bleached calfskin and illuminated in copper and gold, and opens with 34 pages of illustrations of biblical scenes from creation through the death of Moses. Its pages are stained with wine— evidence that it was used at many Passover Seders. It is preserved at the National Museum of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo.
"The Sarajevo Haggadah has survived many close calls with destruction. Historians believe that it was taken out of Spain by Spanish Jews who were expelled by the Alhambra Decree in 1492. Notes in the margins of the Haggadah indicate that it surfaced in Italy in the 1500s. It was sold to the National Museum in Sarajevo in 1894 by a man named Joseph Kohen.
"During World War II, the manuscript was hidden from the Nazis by the Museum's chief librarian, Dervis Korkut, who at risk to his own life, smuggled the Haggadah out of Sarajevo. Korkut gave it to a Muslim cleric in Zenica, where it was hidden under the floorboards of either a mosque or a Muslim home. During the Bosnian War of the early 1990s, when Sarajevo was under constant siege by Bosnian Serb forces, the manuscript survived in an underground bank vault. To quell rumors that the government had sold the Haggadah in order to buy weapons, the president of Bosnia presented the manuscript at a community Seder in 1995.
"Afterwards, the manuscript was restored through a special campaign financed by the United Nations and the Bosnian Jewish community in 2001, and went on permanent display at the museum in December 2002" (Wikipedia article on Sarajevo Haggadah, accessed 03-23-2009).
The Oldest Sephardic
Haggadah
If this Wikipedia article is correct - and it probably is more reliable than GB's fictional account - the folio pages were neither goat, nor alpine sheep - but calfskin! Another reminder that this is fiction!
Did you notice this, JoanK? - "Its pages are stained with wine— evidence that it was used at many Passover Seders."
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Thanks everyone for your kind birthday greetings. They made my day. Thank you all.
The poem really intrigues me in relation to what GB is telling usbecause although, the poem cites a goat the process for preparing the skin was much the same in 12th century as it was at the end of the 15th when our fictional Ben Shoushan sat down to pen the texts. All the things GB tells us about are right there in Ari the Learned's Recipe - soaking the skin in lime - stretching to dry slowly - paring the residual fat and blood vessels - and the final rubbing with pumice and chalk until smooth. Though there are differences between vellum and parchment the underlying process was the same whether the animal was goat, sheep or calf.
Babi You asked where I found the Icelandic recipe book - the answer is, in Australia ! Actually, a friend who is a cartographer unearthed it years ago - he was researching the parchments and inks used in early mapmaking. I had to hunt around my files to find the copy I took.
Another piece of trivia: did you know that the Degrees issued by the University of Glasgow are on a parchment made from goat skin. Fact!
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Good morning, Gum! We were just posting at the same time. Glad you had a happy start to your new year! Hope you're feeling 50 again! ;)
You jogged my memory - reminding me that my son's diploma from Washington and Lee University here in Virginia - is made of sheepskin. Fact! It required a special and more expensive mounting or framing - I guess that's why I remember that.
You know, it is Brooks' fiction that brings us a woman, a young untrained artist, and a Moorish, Muslim as the illuminator of the stunning illustrations in the book. I thought you might like to read this article - be sure to click the link to see the photos of the facsimile pages taken in 1996. I think 100 facsimile pages were made.
Here's an article that addresses matter of the the illustrator of the haggadah -
"According to the venerable Jewish historian, Cecil Roth, "it would seem probable that the illuminator of the Sarajevo Haggadah was a Jew." because of his "cognizance and sympathy for the text." Other details such as the tendency of individual panels to narrate from right to left (Lot flees leftward and Abraham walks left towards the Akeidah) echo Hebrew reading and point to a Jewish artist. The sophisticated integration of midrashic and biblical material and local Jewish costumes of the time (hooded gowns characteristic of Barcelonan Jewry) reinforce this view. "
http://richardmcbee.com/sarajevohaggadah.htm
But we'd better get back to Seville and GB's fiction -
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Gumtree, I really enjoyed the poem, especially after having just read about the process. Was Ari the Wise's text prose?
I read something amusing about the feathers. Left- and right- winged feathers have opposite curves. If you are right-handed, it is the left-wing feather that, when made into a pen, will curve away from your face and not tickle your eyebrow as you bend over your work.
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JOANP: yes, it made me happy to see that scholars think the winestains mean that the Haggadah was actually used in Seders: I like to think of families sitting around the table with that beautiful book. Four ritual glasses of wine are drunk during the ceremony-- it wouldn't be surprising if by the fourth glass some wine was spilled.
The link to the discussion of the pictures is amazing (I've been using that word too much these last few days, but this discussion IS amazing!) I need hours to study it. One note: if you want to follow his description of the paintings, remember the order in which they are read: the first two paintings are on the RIGHT-HAND page (not the left-hand page as in an English text).
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GUMTREE: how lucky you are to have access to such a document. I would love to hear more about it.
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QUESTIONS FOR THE AUTHOR:
I notice that several of the sources we consulted place the origin of the Haggadah around 1350, more that a century before you do. Is this a matter of scholarly debate?
Was the emir in the White hair section based on an historical figure: either the Christian Ferdinand, or an actual emir?
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If you saw a weird message here, that was me. I thought I was posting in Title Mania, one of our literary games. I removed it.
I don't know if the emira is based on Isabella or not. I put that in a question for GB, above.
I'm fascinated by Zahra being asked to draw a garden on a piece of grain. I wonder if suchfine art work was really being done. Artists in the group: would it be possible to do that with a brush as fine as one cat hair?
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People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/peoplebkcvr.JPG) | You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath, Geraldine Brooks' edgy Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work. How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 14th century?
The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then, into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way. This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain. |
Discussion Schedule:
July 15-19 ~ Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
Sarajevo, 1940
July 20-24 ~ Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96
July 25-July 31 ~ ~ Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
Hanna, Boston, 1996
August 1 - August 5 ~ Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
Hanna, London, Spring, 1996
August 6-August 10~ #5 ~ White Hair, Seville, 1480;
Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996
August 11-15 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
Hanna, Gunumeleng, 2002
August 16-August 20 Afterword | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmapsm5.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmaplg5.jpg)
(click twice to really enlarge) |
Topics for Discussion
August 6-August 10 ~ "White Hair" ~ Seville, 1480
1. This is the story of Zahra (the Moor) who is brought from Africa to Seville to serve three very different masters. Does GB convey the experience of slavery vividly? How or how not?
2. How does GB convey the atmosphere of Seville in 1480? What do the stories of Zahra’s first two masters (who are not connected to the Haggadah) add to the book?
4. What do we learn about artistic technique and the lives of artists in this section?
5. Based on what we learned in the last section, what do you think happened to Zahra?
6. Is this story a plausible explanation of the presence of a Black woman in the illustrations in the real Hagaddah? Why or why not?
Hanna ~ Sarajevo, Spring '96
1. When Hanna looks at the exhibit surrounding the Haggadah, she says (p.320) “the point- that diverse cultures influence and enrich one another –was made with silent eloquence.” Has GB made this point with “eloquence”? What are some of the ways she has (or hasn’t) done so?
2.Hanna’s accusation of forgery adds one more plot twist. Is this effective dramatically?
3. If you were Hanna, what would be your reaction to your colleagues’ lack of support? Would you have pressed the issue?
Relevant Links:
Geraldine Brooks - Background information (http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s2446434.htm); Sarajevo Haggadah (http://www.haggadah.ba/); Early Haggadah Manuscripts (http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html); Illuminated Manuscripts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09620a.htm); Brief History of Illuminating Manuscripts (http://www.historicpages.com/texts/mshist.htm); Around Sevlle Image Gallery (http://gospain.about.com/od/seville/ig/Around-Seville-IMAGE-GALLERY/);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com ), & Traudee (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
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To Q. 3
Hanna couldn't press the issue. Even after a last-minute inspection on site, both men steadfastly maintained everything was just fine, that her claim had no merit. She came to realize that nobody would believe her. Ozren told her the museum would not support her; he would not support her.
She had no chance.
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What an awful position for her to be in. Her professional competance is her life, and now no one supports it.We'll learn in the last part what her reaction is. What would yours have been?
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I think it was a personal as well as professional blow to Hanna when the two of them ganged up and said she made a mistake. One was her former professor; someone who mentored her and she looked up to fondly. With Ozren, she began a personal relationship with some vague thoughts of deepening that relationship. It was a deeply hurtful thing for them to do. Unforgivable in my opinion.
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Quotation: Joan P "The captive slave is ashamed to be the slave of a Jew!"
The way I interpret this comment in the book is that she is not ashamed to be the slave of a Jew, but rather, a slave: period. Zahra herself points out that it is her 'master' who has created this awareness in her. This would indicate that the doctor shares an enlightenment uncommon in those times. Indeed, I feel she is a slave in name only. The doctor treats her with kindness and respect, and to me she is part of the family, free to ask questions and go about her trade unhindered.
If it was the custom for wealthy families to have slaves, then Zahra, for the sake of appearances would be considered as such but not treated as such.
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radioman
Of course, that is exactly what the text conveys.
Frybabe Yes, it was a double blow.
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In the book, the black woman at the table is not a servant, but the artist,
and she is participating in the Seder as a guest. Considering how small she
is in the illustration, and separated from the others, the girl is most likely
a servant. On the other hand, she does appear to be seated and holding a wafer, which would argue she is a guest. Personally, I like Brooks version.
GUM, I can just imagine your cartographer friend haunting old bookstores and
antique shops, to find that old Icelandic book. I don't doubt you about the
parchment degrees from Glasgow. According to my earlier research, "parchment is still the only medium used by religious Jews for Torah scrolls or Tefilin and Mezuzahs, and is produced by large companies in Israel."
JOANP, if I'm not mistaken, Arabic also reads from right to left. As to their
art, the few examples I've found so far suggests that they do the same where
living figures are involved. There are some examples here, though you have to
do some scrolling:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_art#Egypt_and_Syria
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Good morning!
I've been up early and clearing out old defunct computer and accessories in anticipation of new PC which is on the way to my house as I type. I've been tracking - and it is on the truck, scheduled for delivery today! Exciting!
Your posts sent me back to reread the White Hair chapter this morning. I am so glad I did!
I have to tell you, Don, that I had totally forgotten that the chapter opened in the home of the doctor, Netanel ha-Levi, where Zahra had "served" for two years! Wasn't he a special man! From the first, when he called her by her own name! As you say, he treated her not like a slave - but almost as part of the family. I remember later in the chapter how kind he was to the girl - and how he treated her with respect. I had forgotten he was the same master from the opening paragraph, which is why I asked that question.
"AT first when I came here, I felt ashamed to be enslaved to a Jew. But now my shame is only that I am a slave."
I think that it is her artistic talent that has saved her - from Hooman, from the emir - has brought her to this comfortable state in the home of the doctor. I still wondered at her continuing "shame" that she is a slave. It is in transcribing the stories of the Jews' quest for freedom that whets her own desire for freedom and makes her aware that she is not really free. She yearns for freedom from her bondage, while admitting that her work is honorable and that she is comfortable. This is not her country. "Freedom and a country. The two thngs the Jews craved." She shares the same dream as the Jews.
Do you think she will achieve her freedom? Do you hear rumblings in the distance? Doesn't this sound familiar?
"Not that he (the emir) will likely reign long enough to need a successor: the breath of the Castilians blows ever hotter. And what will come to any of us then, who knows. The doctor does not speak of it, and there are no signs of any preparations under way if we need to quit this place. I think he has come to believe himself indispensable. whoever is in power..."
If the Jews she serves are forced to leave Seville, what will become of her? Will she go with them? Will she be taken as a slave again...Or will she be free to make her way back home after all. GB has sharpened my imagination...
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I enjoyed this chapter "White Hair" very much. It answered the questions about how the illuminations came to be in the haggadah, leaving us to make up our own minds about the fates of Zahra, the kind Jewish doctor and his family, "Isabella" and the baby girl in the convent, etc.
But we have a glimmering of what happened to Benjamin, the doctor's deaf, mute son. At the beginning of "Saltwater" David Ben Shoushan is in the marketplace and sees these beautiful illuminations. When he tried to ask the boy selling them about them, he is told by a one-armed peasant, "He's a deaf-mute." "I met up with him and his black slave on the road."....."The slave told some wild tale--claimed he's the son of a physician who served the last emir. But you know how it is with slaves, they like to make up tales, eh?"
So now in "White Hair" the story continues and much is explained.
Then we are back to Hanna in Sarajevo and she feels that the Haggadah has somehow been faked from the negatives of the original...and no one believes her. What must she think? What should she do?.....The suspense builds...I can barely put the book down.
Geraldine Brooks is such a great storyteller. I am really enjoying this saga.
Evelyn
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Oh, Evelyn, you've answered the question - the black slave was likely Zahra! - She didn't leave Benjamin, the deaf mute son of the doctor - but stayed with him - as his servant? The beautiful illuminated pages Benjamin is selling - are actually Zahra's own paintings! Isn't this a great story, skillfully put together? I'm so glad to be reading it with all of you - I forget so much. Thank you!
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Babi, I like GB's fiction too - I'll bet the biblical illustration shows her as a servant girl though - and wonder how unusual it was for a Jew to have a black servant, slave or not. Interesting to learn that Arabic texts read from right to left too...Brooks' Muslim, lettered artiste did not seem aware of this...
(http://danwymanbooks.com/hag/sarajevo.jpg)
I looked closer at the page from the haggadah and see the decorative lettering of the paragraph over on the right. I also wanted to look closer at the figures as I reread the passage describing how Zahra painted herself into the illustration -
" I have set the doctor at the head of the table with Benjamin beside him..."
"I have given myself a gown of saffron, ever my favorite color."
"I have set my head at an attentive angle, and imagine myself listening as the doctor tells of Musa, who defied the king of Mizraim and used his enchanted staff to win his people's freedom from their bondage."
I like Brooks' interpretation of the illustration! The girl is dressed up in her saffron gown with the family, listening attentively to the Biblical passage...I can see that!
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This part which is about Iberia is very interesting for me as I have a drop or two of Moorish blood in me, handed down from my Portuguese great grandfather who was born in Lisbon and put on a ship by his parents to come to American in 1854. He was referred to in the Irish family, that he married into in Indiana, as that little black man. Awful, isn't it?? He was a blacksmith and worked on an Armour Beef farm in northern Indiana but eventually moved to Lafayette to marry my Irish(probably Welsh/Scottish) great grandmother, where he was hired to work in the in roundhouse for the LEW(Lake Eris & Western) railroad. His wonderful skin was passed along to my mother and her brothers. I inherited non of that color, only my father's German/Irish light and freckled coloring. Of course, you all know that the Moors also invaded Ireland and some of that dark colored skin remains in that country also.
Sorry to be off topic here but I sometimes do that. Mea culpa! [/b]
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After the rape, the girl who would be Zahra was sent by Gooman to the emir 's palace. The emir, Gooman said, was frequently absent and wanted a likeness of the emira to have with him at all times, and that she would "be painting for an audience of one" (p. 293). Al-Mora was ensconced in the nearly deserted palace. The painter and her subject became unusually close. Nura called her "Muna". Nura confided that her birth name was Isabella, that she was educated by nuns and still a Christian at heart.
When Nura became pregnant, the emir had arranged for regular visits by doctor Netanel ha-Levi. The doctor had been given the Book of Hours by the family of a patient who had died, and he kindly gave it to the emira.
"But the doctor ...surely he is Jew?" ventured al-Mora.
"Yes, of course. Netanel ha-Levi is a devout Jew. But he respects all faiths and people of all faiths seek his care. Otherwise how could he work for the emir? I trust him. He is the only one I really can trust. Except for you." (p.309).
Muna made more drawings of Nura and one day the emira put a mirror in front of her and asked Muna to paint herself.
The military situation and the future of the women was uncertain. Nura/Isabella made plans in secret not sharing them with Muna. (She would take refuge with the Sisters until the baby's birth.) When the doctor visited, al-Mora usually withdrew. One day when she was working on a painting of Pedro, Nura/Isabella's brother, the doctor asked her to stay. He admired the painting, said this was not court training, that he saw more in it, less sophistication, more honesty. She then told him of her father and the pride she had taken to illustrate his medical texts, and of his death The doctor said he knew Ibrahim al-Tarek had no peer, and she flushed with pride.
"He was lucky", the doctor said, "to raise a child such as you who could assist him so ably. I have only one child, and he ..."
He did not finish the sentence.
"Then you must take her", said the emira, ya doktur. Al-Moa will be my gift to you for the great care you have bestowed on me ..." Then, as if it were an afterthought, "Ya doktur, I'll send my brother, Pedro, with al-Mora if you will take him. He can serve as her apprentice." And that is what happened. The doctor re-named her Zahra; pp. 310/11.
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The more you look at this book, the more you see. I'm very impressed with GB's workmanship and attention to detail, as well as her fine, and intricate plotting (she couldn't have carried off the second without the first).
JOANP: the decoration on the right surrounds not a letter, but a phrase. I haven't been able to read it with my rusty Hebrew. Can anyone else?
She does wear a saffron robe in the picture (the colors must have been glowing to have survived as bright as they are). She is shown as smaller, presumably indicating lower status. But she does have something in her hand. I think it is a winecup, not matzoh, if you compare it to the Rabbi's cup. He is drinking (presumably one of the four ritual glasses of wine). She has a wine cup (?) in her hand but no one else does. Perhaps the child and women didn't drink. but then why does she? Maybe she's a man?
Oh, my. I can see one could go on forever about each picture.
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Another detail I really appreciate is that GB explains why the artist drew the earth as a sphere at a time when the church held that it was flat. (I'll bet scholars have a ball guessing about that).
(p. 314) "I have drawn the earth he created as a sphere My father held it to be so ... (the doctor said) that the calculations of our Muslim astronomers are far more advanced than any others"
For science nerds, here is an interesting article tracing the history ofthe idea of a spherical earth. As always when reading Wikapedia, beware that this has not been checked for accuracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_earth#Early_development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_earth#Early_development)
Apparently, the idea of the earth as round was known to the Greeks (the shadow of the earth on the sun during an eclipse is round) but not firmly accepted. But it was known in the Eastern world many centuries before. Possible question for GB: is the round earth part of the impetus for making the artist Muslem?
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Yes, Evelyn and JoanP, That's what I thought too when I reread that bit. The deaf-mute who sold the pictures to David Ben Shoushan is the son of Netanel Ha-Levi, and his black servant is Zahra, back in her boy's costume. We don't know the details of why they had to flee, but Zahra has responsibly stuck with the son until he is taken in by a family that likes him and will keep him if he sells the pictures to pay his way. Then she leaves: "Slipped off one night not long after we reached the coast at Alicante. Trying to get home to Ifriqiya, no doubt." So we know she got to the coast, but have to imagine whether she got home and what she found there.
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JoanP and PatH, Yes, GB more or less told us what might have happened to Zarah in the last paragraph of "White Hair".
Joan K. - I looked at the picture of the seder again and I thought that the black woman was holding a piece of bread and her hand was covering the stem of the cup which was in front of the woman sitting across from her. Also, the woman sitting to the right of the man is holding a wine cup. I am starting to get cross-eyed staring at that picture. ;D
Doesn't that picture really bring the story alive? All those details incorporated into the story right down to the saffron dress.
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JOANP: the decoration on the right surrounds not a letter, but a phrase. I haven't been able to read it with my rusty Hebrew. Can anyone else?
The decoration on the right serves as a shorten list of the steps in the Hagada reading.
It says 'drink' for the first benediction.
Then it says 'Netila" or washing of the hands
the third word is 'Motzi' or matza, for the benediction on the matza
Usually, for the 'Netila' a female will present a vessel with water and will hold a bowl for the men to wash their hand at the table. I think that is what Zarah is holding.
The woman with a piece of matza in her hand is getting ready for the next step.
BTW the translation of the name Zarah is stranger, alien.
I just got the book this week end and will start reading tonight...
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Ah Bubble, it is so good to have you join in - Welcome, Welcome , Welcome ! You can read the Hebrew words on the page!
I find it interesting that Zahra means " stranger" - "alien" - as this is the name her father gave her in her homeland - a Moorish name. Do you think Zahra and Zarah are the same in both Hebrew and Moor?
You won't be able to put the book down, once you start. If you are puzzled about some of the history, why don't you just scroll through the comments from the first page as you go - lots of good information you won't find in the book there! Welcome, did I say welcome?
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Bubble, how nice to see you here! You'll find lots of old friends again.
Although Zahra's first two masters don't have anything to do with the Haggadah directly, they are nonetheless important to it. Under Hooman Zahra first learns to paint the likeness of a face. She hones this skill by painting the emira. And it is the emira who shows her the book of hours, which teaches her how to tell a complicated story through pictures.
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Bubble, Welcome, dear Friend. How good of you to join us!!
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Bubble
Its so good to see you here, on the other side of the pond. Yes, you will meet up with some more of your friends here on SL. Welcome home!
In looking at the illuminations, I thought that Zarhah was coming to the table carrying something?? Wrong again?? Just a guess!
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HI, SoP. I'm glad you are here.
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AH, BUBBLE TO THE RESCUE! I'm so glad you're here!!
You see already how much discussion just one picture can cause! We've already been all over art, poetry, geography, history, and, of course, the seder.
We could discuss this book forever,. Of course we won't, but there is still plenty of time for you to catch up. BUBBLE.
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Thanks for the welcome! you are all dear friends.
Adoannie, I would say that Zarah-Zahra is carrying a vessel of water to wash her master's hand for the benediction. It is the first association coming to mind when thinking Hagada and the written passage of the page.
Joan I would think that the name has the same connotation in Arabic and Hebrew. Many words roots are the same.
The Moors in Spain and the Jewish people there lived in harmony for years and I am sure influenced one another. The Jews there also spoke Arabic fluently, not only Spanish, Hebrew and Ladino.
I'll try to help and comment on the posts I read here - until I cach up with the story.
The historical background of Sephardic pogroms, Inquisition, etc is of course well known and part of my personal luggage. Indeed I was told that my ancestors from maternal side (by the family name Castel) fled from Spain at the time of the Inquisition and settled in Gaza, then in Hebron near Jerusalem.
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Bubble,
Another question which pertains to the books text: In the chapter about Miti and her father, one reads his teaching of his son, how to form the letters. He tells his son to "remember that the beginning of each letter is square and that the end is round. I have been perusing the different links we have here and checking the printing. Can't find those rounds and square. Anyone else checking on this???
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Remember that the quilt or pen used for writing Hebrew is not pointed but has a straight cut edge. So that when you start writing, it maked a "square" or bold straight edge. The end of a stroke, having less pressure on it is thinner and looks rounder or more pointed.
Another detail about Hebrew writing, I don't know if it is mentionned in the book: the letters are written of course on line from right to left. But each letter is formed from left to right in the same shape as the crescent of the moon. So you have to evaluate the width of the letter from the previous one before you start drawing it.
In Latin script, the line as well as the letters start from left to right.
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EVELYN, I see the picture as you do, with the brown object on the table, like the
others pictured, and Zahra holding what looks to me like a wafer or piece of bread.
Definitely now, I would say, a bowl of water.
That is not a woman seated next to the man, however, but his son Benjamin, holding a much smaller wine cup. I have no idea whether the women did or did not
partake of the wine.
BUBBLE, doesn't oriental script also begin firmly and then become lighter and thinner? Perhaps this is typical of all calligraphy and the reason for it's beauty.
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I don't know much about Far East scripts but what is right for Hebrew is certainly the same for the Arabic script.
I went to check the Urdu script from Pakistan in my College diary/memory book, and from the look of it I would say it is similar too.
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Here you can see the Hebrew alphabet in its print form and in its cursive (handwriting) form.
http://www.jewfaq.org/alephbet.htm
There is also an example of the Ashuri Script used by scholars writing scrolls for the mezuzah or holy writing, and the Rashi script for ceremonial or important documents.
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Hello Soapie! Glad you are here. That's a wonderful site on the Hebrew alphabet and scripts - will need to read it at leisure to absorb all it has to offer - thanks.
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BUBBLE, that's great!
And, of course, we have to remember to read the letters from right to left, so they read alef, beit, ...
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Ah, Bubble, thank you for the link with the Hebrew alphabet. It enables us to decipher the passage in the middle of p. 221 in the chapter "Saltwater".
I looked for and found beit. It was a "signal" of great importance for Ruti and Micha in our book.
How is beit pronouced? One syllable or two?
At first glance, I see some similarity with kaf. Perhaps that's due to my no longer 20/20 vision.
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Hi Traude. Beit is pronounce as Bet/a without the a at the end. You could also say also like Bêt/e in French.
You are right that the Beit looks like a kaf, bit the lower horizontal is a straight bar that sticks out on the lower right, while the kaf is is like a mirrored C.
The beit is done in two movements: starting top left and doing an arc then you had the lower bar starting on the left toward the right.
That 1st arc is actually the letter R, resh. It is the basis for writing many other letters.
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Many thanks for the information, Bubble, and good night to you.
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I do remember "beit" as the signal from Micha to poor Ruti to come to the barn for another assignation, Traudee. Beit meaning "two, dual; the house, the house of God on earth." It was Micha who proposed the word as a signal for their "union." Micha, a married man, a father of two. Isn't he just using Ruti? Plain homely Ruti - has no chance for love, for marriage.
You know, the more I think of it, none of the women in these episodes had much of a life, did they? No real, positive relationships with men. In "White Hair" we get a double dose of unhappy women... Perhaps the most satisfying scenes in the chapter - in the whole book, were those in which Zahra and Nura came to understand one another.
The first - when Zahra painted the emira, who had just been humiliated beyond words after having been forced to bathe - naked, in front of the nobles in the courtyard. Zahra hesitated, but followed Nura's orders to paint her as she posed straight and tall, unbroken. She was quite satisfied when she saw that Zahra had captured her defiance.
And then the second, perhaps the best moment, when Zahra was ordered by the emir to paint his wife naked and Zahra outright refused. Why do you think Nura was so outraged at this? It was at this moment that the two became close. I think that the best relationships women had during difficult times - were with other women. The tenderest, the most sympathetic, understanding. Do you think this is what GB meant to convey?
JoanK, I've been gathering your questions to send to GBrooks. Does anyone else have a question you would like to send on to the author?
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JoanP,
I am just now rereading the White Hair. I didn't remember it from my first reading.
Bubble,
Lets see! While writing in the Judaic text, ones starts on the right and the same is true when one reads it.
Gotcha!
Now, is the one doing the writing supposed to start the letter in a square and end it as a round??? or is that an extra point that GB gave us to ponder?
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Yes, you are supposed to start in the square, since the quill is cut that way: to way toi start with a point!
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Was anyone else as incredulous as I was to read that one could paint anything
with a single cat hair? I would have trouble even seeing a single white cat hair! Unless, of course, it was on my brown couch. :-\
I realize that something of the sort must be used to paint those awesome
miniatures on tiny objects. I don't think I've ever seen anything on something as small as a grain of rice, though. So naturally, I went hunting.
http://www.ricepainter.com/images/hawaii%20ship.jpg
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I have heard of painting on rice and painting micro-miniatures, but I have a hard time believing anyone could do it without the aid of a magnifier of some kind. And cat hair? Isn't that way too soft to control well? I have never before heard of using cat hair to paint.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/peoplebkcvr.JPG) | You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath, Geraldine Brooks' edgy Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work. How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 14th century?
The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then, into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way. This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain. |
Discussion Schedule:
July 15-19 ~ Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
Sarajevo, 1940
July 20-24 ~ Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96
July 25-July 31 ~ ~ Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
Hanna, Boston, 1996
August 1 - August 5 ~ Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
Hanna, London, Spring, 1996
August 6-August 10 ~ White Hair, Seville, 1480;
Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996
August 11-15 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
Hanna, Gunumeleng, 2002
August 16-August 20 Afterword & Conclusions | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmapsm5.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmaplg5.jpg)
(click twice to really enlarge) |
Topics for Discussion
August 11-August 15 ~ "Lola" ~ Jerusalem, 2000
1. Why do you think the author included this chapter on Lola's life in 2000?
2. Do you think Lola represents her generation of Jews who managed to survive World War II?
3. Where had she spent the war years? Where does she work now?
4. How did Lola come upon the "miracle"? Was it too much of a coincidence that she would be the one to discover the book as she did?
Hanna ~ Gunumeleng, 2002
1. What is Hanna doing in Gunumeleng? Where is this place of twisted gum trees and Mimi paintings?
2. Were you shocked that the Sharanskys had asked Hanna to take over her mother's role in Aaron Sharansky's foundation? Did she take it?
3. Did you feel any sympathy at all for Sarah Heath?
4. Had you any doubt that Dr. Werner Heinrich and Ozren knew that Hanna was right about the authenticity of the folio on display at the museum?
Were you satisfied with Amitai's explanation of what happened?
5. Do you believe that the Sarajevo Haggadah belongs in Sarajevo, or that it belongs to the Jews in Israel, as Werner believed?
6. How did Australia's Dept. of Foreign Affairs become involved in the affair? Why was this whole interlude necessary for Brooks' plot?
7. The tiny lines Zahra had written on the saffron robe with the single cat hair left on her brush - another miracle? Are there actually scratches visible on the real Haggadah?
8. What became of Werner's facsimile? Did you find yourself rooting against another book burning? ?
Relevant Links:
Geraldine Brooks - Background information (http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s2446434.htm); Sarajevo Haggadah (http://www.haggadah.ba/); Early Haggadah Manuscripts (http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html); Illuminated Manuscripts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09620a.htm); Brief History of Illuminating Manuscripts (http://www.historicpages.com/texts/mshist.htm); Around Sevlle Image Gallery (http://gospain.about.com/od/seville/ig/Around-Seville-IMAGE-GALLERY/);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com ), & Traudee (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
Babi:Who knows, FRYBABE,..maybe they did have a magnifier 'of some kind'. Did
you check the link I posted above? That site has some other rice paintings as
well.
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I think you would need a magnifying glass even to look at a polo match painted on a grain of rice, much less paint it.
But evidently people still paint with cat hair brushes. Here's a course that was given in June, where you could buy the brushes.
Iranian miniature painting workshop (http://pg2009.wordpress.com/2009/05/14/iranian-miniature-painting-workshop-sunday-7-june-confirm-your-participation/)
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I have seen a grain of rice with a blessing written on it.
My daughter received one with her name written on it. 6 letters. Of course I need a magnifier to read it ;D but it is all there. I have no idea what hair they used for that.
Our cats here have very coarse hair on their back, not on their bellies so I don't find it hard to believe. Tweezers were probably used to hold it for precise work.
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PatH, thanks! So they did actually use cat hair brushes to paint the miniatures in the illuminated manuscripts. Probably more than a single hair though. For Zahra to have signed her painting so that it was hidden within the miniature - she must have needed to use the single hair to get it that fine and faint. I got the impression that the brush had more than one hair on it to start with, but that's all she had left at the end...so she used it to sign her work. I wonder if one can see scratch marks or anything on the painting now...even with a super microscope. Hanna didn't mention seeing anything during the conservation in Sarajevo...
Funny how the mystery of the cut, white hair Hanna found gets answered here! Remember how she thought it was from a "dyed" cat? Now we knowthat was from a paint brush - from Zahra's saffron paint!
I came up with another site where the use of cat hair brushes on illuminated manuscript miniatures was discussed - unfortunately it wouldn't open -
JAIC 1978, Volume 18, Number 1, Article 4 (pp. 19 to 32)... contained goose-quill pens, and brushes made of the hair of the domestic cat ... The third paint box examined was made by ... FrancesLichten, The Illuminated Manuscripts of the ...
aic.stanford.edu/jaic/articles/jaic18-01-004.html · Cached page
Other sites spoke of the use of ermine fur brushes too...soft too, right? I'm really enjoying the mix of the historical and Geraldine Brooks' fiction here.
Bubble, I don't know that I would even notice there was something painted on a tiny piece of rice these days!
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Joan, the single rice is kept in a tiny corked glass bubble that can be worn on a chain as a pendant.
A few years ago I received from India the red seed of some plant. It could be unplugged and inside were 21 tiny sculpted ivory elephants each the size of a sesame seed. It was so small that I misplaced it. I have no idea where it can be, or I would have taken a picture to show you.
Zahra could very credibly sign her name like that.
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They're bigger than a sesame seed, but many years ago JoanK gave me this herd of elephants for my birthday.
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1098elephants.jpg)
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Only 5 and not 21? lol then yours are bigger ha ha ha but yes, that is what I meant.
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The one-hair brushes were made that way deliberately: "A few contained just a single hair, for the making of the very finest of lines." (p 286)
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"JoanK gave me this herd of elephants for my birthday".
I'd forgotten all about that. And you kept them all these years!
I hope you give them plenty of space to run free. It's hard to find a cage big enough for five elephants.
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Yes, wasn't that a delicious puzzle that GB gave us! Ill bet we were all dying to know (no pun intended :-[) the story of the cat hair.
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Tomorrow we move into the future - perhaps to understand better why Ozren of all people is agreeing with Hanna's former teacher that Hanna is wrong to question the authenticity of the book about to be presented to the world with great fanfare. What's going on here? Did you believe Hanna? Did Hanna ever doubt herself? If so, why didn't she press the issue? I think it was Ozren who puzzled me most. Why would he of all people accept what to Hanna is an obvious fake?
How did you feel about this added bit of intrigue introduced at the 11th hour?? We know the book won't end like this. There are sure to be surprises in these final chapters.
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JOANP: don't go too fast-- we don't know if it's a fake or not til we read the next section. I see you're betting on our Hanna; those who have read it, don't tell!!
OK, guys! Notice who narrates the section we start tomorrow. Remember Lola?
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Oh yes, I'm betting on Hanna. I wonder what I would do in this situation. I think I'd holler - well, at least I think I'd register my objection somewhere! But this is Ozren telling her she is mistaken! Maybe I'd start second guessing myself.
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It's not just Ozren telling her she's mistaken, it's Werner Heinrich, who is not only the world expert on such manuscripts, but is the man who taught her everything she knew. It's expertise learned from him that she is now using to say the book is a fake, and he says she's wrong. No wonder she's confused.
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Here's my main problem with this book: It seems to scream "look at all the research I've done!" Some times interesting? Sure. Always necessary, or really relevant to the story? Not for me.
State-of-the-art sensors scribbled out lines that tracked temperature and humidity. I checked the graphs: 18 degrees Celsius, perfect, plus or minus 1 degree. Humidity, 53 percent. Right where it should be.
That being said, the "A White Hair" section had heart. It was a good story, well written and reminded me a bit of Hari Kunzru's The Impressionist. Zahra's story itself is compelling, plus we get a wholly reasonable explanation as to how/why the illuminated pages came to be made (whether true or not). They make sense.
But as I considered Benjamin, in his silence, shut out of understanding the beautiful and moving ceremonies of his faith, I remembered Isabella’s prayer book, and the figures in it, and how she said it helped her to pray. The idea came to me that such drawings would be of like help to Benjamin. I cannot think the doctor or his God will be offended by my pictures.
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CHAZZ: that's interesting. You're right, of course. But for people like me, who always like to learn details of occupations and ways of life not my own, it's perfect. Many of these details are woven into the story, although as you said, some are not.
Yes, Zahra's story is very touching. The success of her stories is shown by how much we want to find out what happened to these people.
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Artists' brushes are made from all kinds of animal hair apart from cat including: camel, pony, hog, mongoose, squirrel, raccoon, sheep, fox and the ultra expensive sable -and there are the synthetic varieties as well. They all have different qualities and resiliences and are used for different purposes - shape and size also determine how and where a certain brush will be used. I don't own a cat hair brush but I do have some very, very fine sables which are lovely to use -so soft.
The Japanese still make and use cat hair brushes in their art. The very fine 'one hair' is used as a 'liner' to create a very fine line though liners can be made of other hair and come in several other sizes as well. The Japanese will also use human baby hair for brushes - the first cut of a 6 to 12 month baby is used - very fine and soft.
In India it is illegal to manufacture and sell brushes made from the mongoose. They are available here as Chinese Brush Painting brushes - and are sometimes used by watercolourists. I have a few myself for when I fancy attempting something in the Chinese style.
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The particular piece ChazzW chose to quote about the humidity sensors brought a smile to my face when I read it as I have been present during many a conversation in art galleries and museums about those very sensors - their make-up, placement and operation.
Temperature/humidity sensors have been commonplace since about the 1930s - possibly even before that and are very simple pieces of equipment - the original Thermo-Hygro Graph had human hair as the humidity sensing element and a bi-metal strip in the shape of an arc for the temperature. The curvature of the bi-metal strip changes with the temperature and the length of the human hair element under tension changes with the relative humidity. Variations in readings are recorded on graph paper by a pen in contact with the vertical rotating drum.
The temperature/humidity sensor is an important piece of equipment when one is handling priceless artifacts. Atmosphere control and measurement is generally stock-standard practice in these situations -Research or not, wasn't GB simply pointing out that all precautions necessary were in place.
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Why would Ozren accept the opinion of Hanna's prestigious teacher over hers?
Perhaps because of his high standing and expertise. Perhaps because the book
was about "to be presented to the world with great fanfare", and he didn't
want to mess that up. Which still leaves open the question of whether Hanna
was right.
CHAZZ, the technical details not only interest me, they add to the sense of
authenticity re. the scientific aspect. Of course, in other subjects, I would
probably find technical details boring. A matter of taste and preference, I
suppose.
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Here's another link to rice paintings:
http://www.dailypainters.com/paintings/keyword/rice (http://www.dailypainters.com/paintings/keyword/rice)
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I think these are paintings on rice paper.
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I'd say you're right Soapie. some of those paintings appear to be executed in the traditional Chinese Brush painting technique which often uses rice paper or sugar paper.
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Thanks for clearing that up, Bubble and Gum. I wondered when "google" brought up that link.
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Before we move on, hopefully leaving Zahra making her way back to her Moorish roots, Annie, I'd like to comment on your post describing your black skinned Moorish great grandfather's skin -
This part which is about Iberia is very interesting for me as I have a drop or two of Moorish blood in me, handed down from my Portuguese great grandfather who was born in Lisbon and put on a ship by his parents to come to American in 1854. He was referred to in the Irish family, that he married into in Indiana, as that little black man... His wonderful skin was passed along to my mother and her brothers. I inherited none of that color, only my father's German/Irish light and freckled coloring.
I found that fascinating...especially that your mother had the dark skin herself - and you, the light freckled coloring. I don't know why but I thought the dark coloring was always dominant, especially since your mother had inherited the gene...
This reminded me of Hooman's description of the Zahra's skin - he tried to capture it in his paints as he stared at her forearm. I thought it a wonderful example of GB's writing. I think she knows about paint and color...
It is the color of blue smoke...no...it is like a ripening plum, with the pale down still dusting it. I must paint this color."
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The prints are worthworth looking at anyway, rice or no rice. As a birdwastcher, I like the bird watching one.
Gum, that's fascinating. Human hair to measure humidity! I always wondered if the changes in hair many women feel on humid days were real.
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Babi, I'd be interested to hear what you thought - was Hanna mistaken? Did you believe that when you heard both Ozren and her teacher - who taught her everything she knew - dismiss her objections as if she were a difficult child, who didn't know what she was talking about? I was so disappointed in Ozren, though had no idea what Werner's motive might have been. I didn't trust him, but I did trust Ozren.
Here's my main problem with this book: It seems to scream "look at all the research I've done!" Some times interesting? Sure. Always necessary, or really relevant to the story? Not for me.
Chazz - yes, I agree, tons of research went into the book - to make it believable, I thought. The author didn't want the authenticity of the book questioned...hence the attention to detail. Whenever I caught myself getting lost in the trees, I kept remembering the forest - remembering what I thought was the purpose of the book. And then it worked for me - details and all. Let's save the question of what Geraldine Brooks was attempting to do here - her purpose in writing the book - for a few more days after we finish the final chapters of the book.
Lola returns! We thought we said goodbye to Lola at the start of WWII when the Kamals took her to the mountains of Sarajevo. Babi, was it you who expressed the hope we'd see her again? Were you puzzled at the start of this chapter as to where she was in 2000...and where she was dusting and came across the book? Where did she spend the war years? I found that time line confusing...
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Very real JoanK. On humid days like today there is no point in combing my hair: it goes every which way it wants and is much curlier than usual.
I am readding as fast as I can to catch up, this book is so tantalizing! I'll have to reread slower again to taste all the small details.
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I want to say something about this question:
"When Hanna looks at the exhibit surrounding the Haggadah, she says (p.320) “the point- that diverse cultures influence and enrich one another –was made with silent eloquence.” Has GB made this point with “eloquence”? What are some of the ways she has (or hasn’t) done so?"
Surely this point is one of the main themes of the book--that even in the middle of national conflicts, diverse cultures can enrich each other on an individual level. Zahra, African, a Muslim, and a slave is befriended, helped and taught by the Christian Emira and the Jewish doctor Netanel ha-Levi. In Venice, Father Vistorini and Rabbi Judah Aryeh are friends, though it's sort of an armed truce. In Sarajevo during WWII, the Muslim Serif Kamal risks his life to save the Haggadah, and also to hide and save the Jewish Lola (and others, too). And the Muslim Ozren also risks his life for the book.
Hanna's mother, presumably a non-practicing Christian, falls in love with a Jew, and Hanna herself has a passionate interlude with a Muslim.
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Yes, Joan, dark color tends to be dominant. That's why a dark mother can have a pale daughter. The pale genes were there, but masked by the dark, but if the daughter gets only the pale genes, she will be light. In our family we occasionally have redheads after several generations of dark hair. The red genes are there all along, but hiding.
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We have two red headed grandsons...everyone wonders about where the red hair came from. It seems DIL's grandmother had the red, but DIL only remembered when it was white. Her Dad told her that he had memories of reddish brown - nothing like these grandsons.
Surely this point is one of the main themes of the book--that even in the middle of national conflicts, diverse cultures can enrich each other on an individual level.
I agree, PatH - do you think this was what motivated GBrooks to write her fiction, the story of this book's survival?
Perhaps it was back in 1996 when she witnessed the conservator handling this book that she was stirred by the memory of all the people who had contributed to the book's survival.
Why do you think the author included this chapter on Lola's life in 2000 - in Jerusalem?
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JoanP,
The fact of dark skinned syblings in my mom's generation is why I mentioned that the Moors also invaded Ireland. Maybe my ggrandfather's genes plus my Irish grandfather's both contributed to the dark skinned children. My mother and both of her brothers were all dark skinned.
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I've always understood that a child may be lighter than either parent,but
not darker than both. I don't know for certain if that is accurate; I haven't
researched it. So two light-skinned parents would not have a dark-skinned
child, but if one parent is dark the children could be either. Genes often skip
a generation. In my Dad's family, twins appeared every other generation.
On the color of Zahra's skin, I found myself trying to visualize that 'ripening plum' color with reference to the 'blue smoke'. I don't know how successful I was; wish I could seen it.
No, JOANP, I didn't believe Hanna was mistaken. For one thing, it simply
wouldn't be good story-telling. What puzzled me is why Werner Heinrich is
dismissing her claim without looking into it? He seemed like such a fine
old man, and very fond of Hanna. Something is just not right here.
Yes, I was thinking we might see Lola again. The section focusing on her,
despite her minimal involvement with the book, just didn't make much sense
otherwise. I wasn't surprised at where she was when she emerged again. Isn't
that where..I forget his name; the young man she admired and respected...that
where he was going and where he urged them all to go?
I hadn't thought of that, PATH, but you are right. GB has featured a mingling
of the different cultures throughout the book. I had overlooked it as a
feature of the locales and the times, but it isn't really. Most people, then
as now, probably live most of their lives in communities with others like
themselves, with only superficial contact with other cultures.
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Hanna Gunumeleng 2002 :
Hanna is actually working in Kakadu National Park located in Arnhem Land in the Northern Territory. Kakadu is a World Heritage Site. The ancient rock paintings Hanna is working on to document and preserve are the oldest in the world and are under constant threat from mining interests and natural forces.
Gunumeleng is not a place - it is a season - the pre-monsoon season in Arnhem Land in the Northern Territory. The Australian Aboriginals break the year in to six seasons. Gunumeleng usually runs from about mid October to late December or what in southern Australia is high spring to early summer.
the description below of Gunumeleng comes from http://www.environment.gov.au/parks/kakadu/nature-science/seasons.html
This site also shows some of the country, the rock art, flora and fauna. If you click on 'Kakadu National Park' on the sidebar a menu will appear - click on Culture History and World Heritage which has lots of info about Kakadu where Hanna is working including the rock art
Gunumeleng, from mid October to late December, may in fact last from a few weeks to several months. It is the pre-monsoon season of hot weather, that becomes more and more humid. Thunderstorms build in the afternoons and scattered showers bring a tinge of green to the dry land. As the streams begin to run, acidic water that washes from the flood plains can cause fish to die in billabongs with low oxygen levels. Waterbirds spread out as surface water and new growth become more widespread. Barramundi move from the waterholes downstream to the estuaries to breed. This was when Biniji/Mungguy moved camp from the floodplains to the stone country to shelter from the violent storms of the coming wet season.
The link also gives a run down on the other seasons - Gudjewgg(the monsoon or 'The Wet'), Banggerreng (around April), Yegge (cooler but still humid), Wurrgeng (cold weather), and Gurrung (Hot and dry).
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JoanP
You asked, why did GB add the Lola chapter?
After all, the haggadah was back home in Sarajewo, given a prominent place in the museum, kept under guard at the optimum temperature befitting invaluable artifacts.
My thoughts: Is it possible that GB saw a parallel home-coming for Lola - who was by no means the first but surely among the forerrunner of thousands of Jews in search of a Palestine homeland? Showing the hardships any immigrant faces anywhere, even now?
Perhaps we could ask GB whether that was one of her considerations or objectives.
Similarly, Hanna's story would not have been complete without the last chapter, we NEEDED to know WHO betrayed
WHOM. Alas, the WHY offered is not convincing IMHO.
In the last Hanna chapter, she is vindicated.
Cheers!!
But was it really necessary to have Hanna surrender/submit to Ozren's charms, again? How logical was this just after the revelation of such a sickening betrayal?
So much for the crediibiity women's competence. Grrrr.
Was a romantic ending really necessary?
I don't know what to say about Werner Heinrich. No question, he is a villain in the end. He had not displayed signs of fanaticism before. Why this now? I'm not sure I believe the character, beginning with Liebchen, which is hopelessly outdated.
I'm looking forward to the discussion od the Afterword and hope we'll have a chance to freely express our thoughts about the book as a whole.
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I found the whole character of Werner Heinrich stretched things too far with descriptions of his demeanour, clothing and behaviour etc. more in keeping with 1920s or even earlier - as you say Traudee hopelessly outdated.
And as for Hanna falling into Ozren's arms again... just too much to take IMO.
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Gumtree ~ I agree. The ending was not a complement to the rest of the book.
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I like the fact that the Book returned to Israel, at least briefly. It has a rightness to it. After all, this is not just a history of the wandering of the book, but symbolically of the wandering of the Jewish people, ending in the Jewish homeland.
And it also seems right that it should be in Yad ve Shem, the Holocaust memorial in Israel. The journey started with the book's and Lola's escape from the Holocaust: again it seems fitting that it should end there.
I'm ashamed to admit that I was never in Yad ve Shem when I lived in Israel. But I met many Holocaust survivors, someof which were generous enough to share their stories with me. I will never forget them and we shouldn't either. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
I am ashamed to admit that I did not visit that when
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Let's talk about the ending, Mippy.
I did like the way GB began with Lola, an old woman - slowly revealing how she came to Jerusalem, and then how she later discovered the book while dusting in the museum. I wasn't sure where she was at that point - I thought she had spent the war in the mountains outside of Sarajevo. But she married that awful Branko - who left her to die at the beginning of the war? Will you ever understand that?
Gradually we learn that she is working in the Holocaust museum in Jerusalem - and it isn't until we come to the very last chapter that we get the story of how that came about. I do like the way things unfolded in small doses.
JoanK - did you visit the Holocaust museum in Washington when you lived in the area? That too is a draining, sobering experience.
Like you, Gum, I thought Werner's story was full of holes. Can we talk about it? He did express his own personal reason for wanting to save this book...in 1996 - I'm not sure it was enough of a reason to go through the charade of creating a facsimile - trying to paint it himself -
Even less sure of why Ozren went along with him. And then the both of them leaving Hanna to doubt her own abilities. Had Lola never found the book, would they ever have told Hanna of the deception? I don't think so.
Hanna would have remained out in the northern territory - preserving the rock art. She does seem happy - getting to know her own country. Gunumeleng, a season. Now we have learned something from someone in the know! Thanks, Gum! Did you notice the "twisted gum trees"?
I am curious to see pictures of this rock art...
Is it possible that GB saw a parallel home-coming for Lola - who was by no means the first but surely among the forerrunner of thousands of Jews in search of a Palestine homeland? Showing the hardships any immigrant faces anywhere, even now?
I am seeing that parallel too, Traudee.
Traudee, yes indeed, we will have a frank discussion of the book as soon as we finish our discussion of the last two sections chapters.
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GUM: thanks for the link. The one picture shown of the art (under culture and history) was stunning -- I wish there had been more.
Have you had a chance to see the place yourself? Australia is so big, and I don't know how close you are to it, or how accessible it is.
What do you all think of Hanna's reaction to her colleague's lack of support? She doubts HERSELF, not the others, and abandons her restoring, the most important thing in her life. Do you think you would have reacted that way? Or would you have had more faith in yourself?
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On my way to bed when I saw your question JoanK, which reminded me that I had intended to look up more of Australia's rock art Gum's been telling us about - found this site - feast your eyes!
Aboriginal rock art from Kakadu National Park, Northern Territory (http://www.ozoutback.com.au/postcards/postcards_forms/rockpaintings_nt/index.htm)
This is the Mimi spirit I think Hanna may have been working on. What do you think? Would she have been happy working out here in the wilderness had she never been brought back to hear the reasons for the deception?
(http://www.ozoutback.com.au/postcards/postcards_forms/rockpaintings_nt/Image/au239270.jpg)
I'd like to see a picture of a twisted gum tree, Gum! ;)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/peoplebkcvr.JPG) | You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath, Geraldine Brooks' edgy Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work. How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 14th century?
The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then, into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way. This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain. |
Discussion Schedule:
July 15-19 ~ Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
Sarajevo, 1940
July 20-24 ~ Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96
July 25-July 31 ~ ~ Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
Hanna, Boston, 1996
August 1 - August 5 ~ Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
Hanna, London, Spring, 1996
August 6-August 10 ~ White Hair, Seville, 1480;
Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996
August 11-15 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
Hanna, Gunumeleng, 2002
August 16-August 20 Afterword & Conclusions | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmapsm5.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmaplg5.jpg)
(click twice to really enlarge) |
Topics for Discussion
August 16-August 20 ~ "Afterword" ~ Conclusions
(These questions come from several different sources. Please feel free to add your own.)
1. Some say the "Afterword" should have been located at the start of the book. What do you think? Why do you think the decision was made to place it at the end?
2. In what ways is the Sarajevo Haggadah symbolic of the plight of the Jewish people over the years? Would you say that this became the main theme of the book or do you see an even broader theme?
3. Did Geraldine Brooks conceive a believable history of the Sarajevo Haggadah based on the little that is known of its history? Do you think the different chapters, which told different stories, hung together well?
4. There is an amazing array of “people of the book”—both base and noble—whose lifetimes span some remarkable periods in human history. Who is your favorite?
5. Did you connect with Hanna? Did you find her relationships with her mother and Orzen believable? What did they add to the overall story?
6. Hanna's mother justifies her poor parenting through her feminist ideals. How did you see women's situation change over the years? Do you think Hanna's mothers attitude was necessary to bring about permanent change for women?
7. Do you think the suspenseful ending fit with the rest of the book? Were you surprised by what happened? If you were Hanna, would you have forgiven Orzen?
8. What is this book? It involves secrets, but is it a mystery? A thriller?
9. When Hanna implores Ozren to solicit a second opinion on Alia’s condition, he becomes angry and tells her, “Not every story has a happy ending.” Do you believe this story had a happy ending?
10. After having read this book, can you understand why it has been tops on best seller lists throughout the world? How would you rate this book on a scale of 1-5?
Relevant Links:
Geraldine Brooks - Background information (http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s2446434.htm); Sarajevo Haggadah (http://www.haggadah.ba/); Early Haggadah Manuscripts (http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html); Illuminated Manuscripts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09620a.htm); Brief History of Illuminating Manuscripts (http://www.historicpages.com/texts/mshist.htm); Around Sevlle Image Gallery (http://gospain.about.com/od/seville/ig/Around-Seville-IMAGE-GALLERY/);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com ), & Traudee (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
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JoanP Thanks for posting that Kakadu site - I saw it a few days ago but then couldn't find it again
Here's something about the Mimi spirit paintings - and yes Hanna would have been working on a similar piece.
www.aboriginalartonline.com/art/rock2.php
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Here's more rockart - this time located in the Kimberley region of Western Australia. Click on the photo gallery for a few more images
www.kimberleycoastalcamp.com.au/rockart.asp
and a 'twisted' gum -
www.flickr.com/photos/bhojman/2894804828
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I think it was Werner Heinrich that tipped the scale for Hanna, JOANK. she
would not have backed down for Ozren, but Heinrich had been her teacher and
mentor. More than that, he had been a friend who seemed to treasure that
friendship. An adopted Uncle, so to speak. She respected his knowledge and
experience, and could not imagine a betrayal. It was a cruel thing to do.
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GUMTREE: your link was lovely:
'Larry Jakamarra Nelson, a Warlpiri man and teacher of the old traditions who lives at Yuendumu in the Northern Territory, says:
"When I look at my tjukurrpa [dreaming] paintings it makes me feel good - happy in kuturu (heart), spirit. Everything is there: all there in the caves, not lost. This is my secret side. This is my home - inside me . . . Our dreaming, secret side - we must hold on to this, like our fathers, looking after it . . . We give to our sons when we die. The sons keep this from their fathers, grandfathers. The sons will remember, they can carry on, not be lost. And it is still there - fathers' country with rockhole, painted cave . . . The people keep their ceremony things and pictures - they make them new. They bring young boys for learning to the caves - telling the stories, giving the laws from grandfathers' fathers, learning to do the paintings - tjukurrpa way".
(From the preface to Elaine Godden and Jutta Malnic, Rock Paintings of Aboriginal Australia)'
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This morning the Head Librarian in an area library inquired what books the SeniorLearn group was enjoying, so I mentioned this discussion. Perhaps there will be a few newcomers checking in.
Mahlia
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That sounds great, Mahlia. We would welcome newcomers - We look forward to hearing your own reactions to the book too!
Thanks for the great site, Gum -and the picture of the twisted gum tree. Are all gum trees "twisted?" Do they grow twisted in Perth?
JoanK - reading the comments of the Warlpiri teacher of the old traditions in Yuendumu in the Northern Territory, I remember again how Hanna changed while she lived and worked there - for the better. Stronger - her spirits improved. I got the feeling that she was happy there. True, she's alone...
I'm not quite sure that she just fell back into Ozren's arms again. Not the new and improved Hanna. Perhaps I need to reread the last of that chapter...I don't think he's someone to trust.
Babi - I guess the survival of the book meant more to Werner than Hanna did. I can accept that. But did he really think that Hanna would accept his opinion? An even bigger question, did he know that he would be destroying her confidence and her career?
I perked up when I read that he had retired - in Vienna - thought we were going to hear more about the silver clasps. I wonder why GB had him retire there. Any ideas?
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"A picture is worth a thousand words", they say. How true!
We are fortunate to have the links to photographs of Aboriginal rockart to look at right here.
Thank you.
Hanna had no chance. No one would have believed HER word against that of the two men, especially her mentor, renowned for his expertise. She could have thrown a tantrum -- and then she would have been ridiculed as a hysterical female. She did the only thing, "she turned away and walked out of the room" (pg. 326). With dignity, true, but her self-confidence was shattered, her professional reputation suffered.
She did important work, following in the footsteps of a father she had never known and whom she probabaly would never have heard about, had it not been for the accident her mother was involved in.
How the memory must have grated on her!
Ozren's treachery was absolutely unforgivable. And after all that she falls into his arm again?
"He reached for me. This time I didn't pull back."
Mercy!
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I perked up when I read that he had retired - in Vienna - thought we were going to hear more about the silver clasps. I wonder why GB had him retire there. Any ideas?
Werner had lived in Vienna for much of his professional life. That's where Hanna studied with him, and visited him later when she was following up the book's history. So he didn't move there, he just stayed where he was, a natural thing to do.
What interests me more is: how could he bring himself to do the forgery and hide the book where he did? Good reasons are given. His concern for preserving manuscripts at all cost results from his past history, he very reasonably is skeptical of the book's safety in Sarajevo, he feels that Israel is its rightful place, etc. But still: he is hiding the book where no one knows it's there. It's just sitting on a shelf, not in a controlled climate, wedged up between other books, where anything could happen to it. Lola dusts it with reverence, but someone else might just turn the vacuum cleaner on it. Hanna is afraid even to touch it without gloves and a special stand to rest it on.
Six years later, when Amitai tries to get the real truth out of Werner, Werner is ill and pretty much out of it. It takes hours to piece together anything coherent from what he says. Perhaps he was already deteriorating. At the time Hanna first spots the forgery, he is described as very shaky. Of course he could also be shaky at the thought of what he had done.
Ozren goes along with it because he is half crazy in the first stages of grief for his son, and Werner is very persuasive.
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PatH, do you find yourself agreeing with Werner - that the book really belongs in Israel? From the start, I thought there was something wrong with the picture - that the book really didn't belong in Sarajevo. But if not there, where it was sold by the Kohen family, then where does it belong? I remember thinking about the Elgin Marbles - in the British Museum. I sided with those who believed they belonged in Greece, where they were created. But where does this book belong? It was created in Spain after all. Does it belong in Spain? Werner thinks it belongs with the Jewish people in Jerusalem because of all they suffered. I'm not so sure I agree with that either. Who believes the Haggadah belongs in Sarajevo, raise your hand!
I would love to see it some day. Even a facsimile. In September we will be in Munich and Prague. I would love to know if the Museums in each of these nearby countries have a copy on display. I don't think we'll be in Sarajevo....
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She did important work, following in the footsteps of a father she had never known
Traudee, it seems that Hanna is working to preserve the rock art in Australia as part of the work associated with her father's foundation. Does this mean that she accepted the Sharansky family's request that she take over the administration of the foundation from her mother? What did you think of their request? I'm curious.
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I'll raise my hand. I agree with JoanK that there is a certain satisfaction in having the Haggadah come to Israel for a while, but that doesn't mean that Israel is its home. Haggadahs belong wherever there are Jewish families using them to keep the traditions of their faith. This one has had a long history of wandering, and is also a great work of art, but it's still a Haggadah, has found a home in Sarajevo, and was used there in the way it was meant to be used, so I think it's a perfectly appropriate place for it.
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JoanP
Oh yes. Definitely.
Jonah Sharansky called Hanna to tell her (1) that Delilah had left her a substantial heritage and (2) the family wanted her to take over her mother's role in Aaron's foundation. The other board members had already voted on it, he told her. In the last paragraph on p. 341 Hanna says,
"My mother went spare when she found out she'd been given the shove."
There's a (final) meeting between mother and daughter at which Dr. Sarah attempts to convince Hanna to turn down the job !! Hah!! On p. 345 Hanna tells us:
"I don't see her anymore. We don't even go through the motions. Ozren had been right about one thing: some things just don't have happy endings."
Pat, I totally agree with you and JoanK about the haggadah.
Moreover I believe that the Lola chapter is especially moving, meaningful and, yes, symbolic: that Lola was the one who happened upon the manuscript and held it so gently, reverently, as if divining what a treasure it was.
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I'm glad to hear the head librarian takes an interest, MAHLIA. Considering
the widespread interest in books here, you would think more librarians would
check to see what we are reading. But I'm sure they have their own resources
for sort of info. The librarians here are very resonsive to the interests of
their patrons, I'm happy to say.
I think we tend to forget that Ozren's previous contact with Hanna was fairly
brief. The book was immensely important to him, whereas Hanna was there a
while, then gone. After the truth came out, he offered Hanna his explanation
and apparently she found it valid. Whether I would have or not I can't say.
I guess you had to be there.
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Babi, that's a good point - Ozren's main concern would have been for the safety of the Haggadah - rather than for Hanna's feelings. As you point out, their's was a brief relationship. In fact they had stopped seeing one another before she left Sarajevo.
Traudee, do you think it was too much of a coincidence that it was Lola who escaped with the Kamals - smuggling the Haggadah out of Sarajevo - and then, years later, it is Lola who finds it on the shelf as she dusts in Jerusalem? I guess it makes some sense that very few people would know what they were looking at if they found the book - it would take someone who recognized it to know what it is. Still, I thought it was too much of a fairy tale ending - the way she discovered the book.
I keep overlooking the fact that this is fiction...
About the Sharansky family's request - I have to ask why they decided to put the foundation in the hands of Aaron's daughter, rather than leave it in control of the mother of his child - as it had been for years. Why did they take it from Sarah? She has so little connection with the man she loved. That car accident seems to be threatening her position in the hospital as well as any connection with her former lover...to say nothing of his daughter. Does anyone feel sympathy for Sarah Heath - or does Hanna get all or your attention?
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I have very little sympathy for Sarah, although I do feel a little sorry for her. She brought most of her woes on herself. I am wondering why they had her on the Foundation in the first place. Her attitude toward Hanna's chosen profession and expertise surely must have shown in her dealings with a foundation dedicated art and archaeological conservation. Actually, I don't remember the book stating the foundation's purpose, just that they were supporting a project doing conservation of Aboriginal rock art.
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JoanP
We are not told what Sarah did for the foundation, whether she did it well, or what the job entailed. Would she have had time for it, even? As for "giving her the shove", nobody could blame the Sharanskys for being hurt, even resentful, that Sarah kept Hanna in total ignorance of her father, his work, and the existence of the family -- Delilah lived close enough in Australia in Hanna's early years to watch her from afar. It is quite incomprehensible that a mother, a MOTHER?, could do this, and routinely dismiss a daughter's chosen field.
We note with pleasure that Hanna assumed her father's name -- over Sarah's protests. Yet, if it had not been for Sarah's accident, none of this would be possible. Sarah's revelations in the hospital did have a profound effect on the mother-daughter relationship, as I said earlier. It's all in the plotting. (And I agree with you about Lola.) It all fits perfectly, neatly. Too neatly?
How strong really IS Hanna's own story compared with the glorious journey of the haggadah?
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In the final chapeter Hanna mentions a few Aussie things you might like to see:
The painting by Rover Thomas hanging in the Foreign Affairs office where Hanna meets Amatrai - Click on to enlarge figure 3 which is 'Roads Crossing'
http://www.worldaa.com/article.cfm?article=53
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And some of Sidney Nolan's work from the 'Ned Kelly' series. Nolan's paintings are not for everyone but they are very powerful.
http://www.ironoutlaw.com/html/gallery.html
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Babi, that's a good point - Ozren's main concern would have been for the safety of the Haggadah - rather than for Hanna's feelings. As you point out, their's was a brief relationship. In fact they had stopped seeing one another before she left Sarajevo.
Not only was the relationship brief, but don't forget why they stopped seeing each other. Hanna learned about Ozren's son, and , at Ozren's insistence, accompanied him to the hospital for a visit. But she wanted no part of such a tragedy, or of someone who was going through it, and didn't sleep with Ozren again. She didn't look like someone willing to accept him as a whole person.
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My first reaction to the Rover Thomas paintings was that they are quite
simplistic. Then I looked closer at "The Crossroads" and saw those two
hands reaching out from either side of the crossroad. More subtlety and depth
there than I first thought. Thanks for the link, GUM.
I had to look up Ned Kelly. I had a vague idea he was an Australian outlaw,
but that's all. It appears there are some movies and a TV drama in the works
about him. I'll be interested in watching for those. Sidney Nolan's work is
certainly colorful, but I wonder if that lack of perspective and seeming
weakness in anatomy is deliberate...or not.
PATH, I'm remembering the incident of Hanna's visit to see Ozern's son
somewhat differently. Being Sarah Heath's daughter, she tried to persuade
Ozren to seek further opinions on his son's condition. He became very angry.
I assume that was because he had already done everything possible, and
resented her assuming he would have done anything less. It must have taken long and painful years for him to come to terms with his loss. I can see how he would be angry at her for disturbing what peace he had gained.
Whatever Hanna's personal feelings about her mother, she does seem to think Sarah can do anything in her specialty field. I don't think it was that Hanna "wanted no part of such a tragedy". On the contrary, she was interfering where she was not wanted.
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It's funny how we read into these characters - as if they are human - rather than GBrooks' imaginary characters. Perhaps that is one of the author's strengths, bringing the characters to life, so that we are talking about them as if there is more going on with them than we see on the page. Credit where credit is due. Perhaps we can forgive her the stretches, the unlikely coincidences that we question...in exchange for these engaging characterizations.
I saw Ozren as objecting to outside interference. The Bosnian doctors had done what they could. He bristled at the suggestion that outsiders could do more. Let's say that Sarah Heath looked at those xrays, or other test results, and saw that something could be done for the boy, as Hanna was hoping when she took them to Boston - What then? Would Ozren have reacted the same way, not wanting to put the boy through more than he had already been through?
Are you seeing a parallel here between Ozren and Sarah Heath - both of them avoiding treatment that may have saved the lives of loved ones?
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Gum, thanks so much for the Australian artwork referred to in this chapter. I wondered if the two paintings are actually hanging in the Dept. of Foreign Affairs in Australia - or if this is more of GBrooks' fiction? Can someone remind me again of the reason the Haggadah was brought to Australia from Jerusalem? And why was it left to Hanna to smuggle it back in? I guess the answer to the question might be - who else? But it did seem a bit far-fetched, didn't it?
Babi, I hadn't noticed those hands in the Rover Thomas painting either - thanks for pointing them out. I hadn't enlarged it. The painting fits very nicely into the theme of unity, doesn't it? And Crossroads.
(http://www.worldaa.com/images/articles/rovere.jpg)
From the site Gum provided - In 1995 Thomas visited the country of his birth for the first time in 40 years. The arduous trip through the Great Sandy Desert to Gunawaggi provided Thomas with the inspiration to paint ancestral subjects connected with this country
I'm seeing Geraldine Brooks' love for Australia in her references to its art and antiquity - in Hanna. I feel that Hanna's roots are in Australia - just as Ozren's are in Sarajevo. Although we are left with the image of Ozren "reaching" for Hanna - and Hanna not pulling away, I'm not so sure I see a future for the two...a happily ever after ending.
And now that Hanna has taken over her father's foundation, doesn't it seem that she will be spending much of her time in Australia?
If she has forgiven Ozren for the betrayal, it is my hope that she will find some compassion for Sarah Heath - who is in a bad way, as we leave her. I'm glad I'm not one of her patients getting ready for surgery. Don't think Sarah is up to it. But without surgery, does she want to live?
ps Gum, I'm going to have to admit that I don't get the Ned Kelly paintings - though they are vivid and powerful. What's the black rectangle on Ned Kelly's head in each painting?
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We are indebted to Gumtree who's added immeasurably to what we know about Australia, its history and culture.
If we had researched the "down under", which includes New Zealand, on our own, it would doubtless have taken us longer to find the pertinent links that are now at our disposal for further perusal.
[JoanP][/b]
In a hearty discussion we always become involved in the fictional characters' lives, and sometimes question their decisions. The final answer, of course, is always with the author, and we have no choice but to accept it.
More important IMHO is OUR lasting impression, OUR evaluation of this book, which was clearly written from the heart.
WHAT is this book? It involves secrets, but is it a mystery? a thriller?
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Fear not, JoanP a lot of folk don't really 'get' the Kelly paintings.
The black rectangle on Kelly's head is in fact bullet proof armour which he wore during the seige at Glenrowan in Victoria when his gang members were killed - the armour saved Kelly then but he was later hanged for murder. Some see Kelly as some kind of folk-hero but he was no Robin Hood and most of his crimes were premeditated. The best book about him IMO is the Peter Carey True History of the Kelly Gang which won the Booker Prize a few years back. Kelly's own document known as 'The Jerilderie Letter' which was dictated by him and written down by one of his followers not long before he met his comeuppance is also worth reading specially in relation to Carey's take on the matter.
Here's a link to Ned Kelly's Armour held by Victorian State Library:
http://www.slv.vic.gov.au/collections/treasures/kelly_armour/kellyarmour1.html
I think it hightly likely that the Rover Thomas and Nolan paintings are (or were) actually hanging in the Dept Foreign Affairs offices in Sydney - they tend to rotate items from the National Collection around Government Offices, Parliament House etc. I did notice that GB didn't actually name the Kelly painting by Nolan hanging in DFAT offices- so she may have fudged that one.
Babi Still on Ned Kelly - did you know that Ned Kelly was the subject of the first full length feature movie ever made anywhere and that it was made right here in Australia somewhere around 1900.
As for Sidney Nolan, he had no trouble with perspective, anatomy or anything else in his artwork. In the Kelly series everything is deliberate -taken together, the paintings explore the complete narrative of Kelly's life including the seige and his trial - but each one stands alone as well. Nolan was a consummate artist and his work is held in collections around the globe.
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I just noticed that the link to Ned Kelly's armour in the post above also has a link to the Jerilderie Letter - look on the side bar to the left if you're interested.
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Gum,
I understood the Kelly paintings but I think that I knew about the Kelly gang previously as I either read or saw their history in a book or a recent movie. I will have to look it up. Thanks for the links.
I found this link to the movie: NED KELLY
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0277941/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0277941/)
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Thanks for all the links, it took hours to catch up and look at all the links.
I have thoroughly enjoyed this book and it has been made more enjoyable by all your comments. The people, especially Hanna, are very real to me.
The break between Sarah and Hanna was almost inevitable and I guess we can draw our own conclusions as to whether it will last. Sarah kept Hanna from a very loving family and I just don't know how Hanna could have ever forgiven her for that. But on page 343 (paperback version) when Sarah and Hanna have the conversation about whether Hanna should take the position with the Sharansky Foundation and Hanna says she has skills that they might find useful. Sarah is so deprecating, "Skills? What skills could you possibly have, darling?...
"It's bad enough, Hanna, that you've spent all these years playing with paste and scraps of paper. But at least books have something to do with culture. Now you are proposing to go out to the middle of absolutely nowhere, to save meaningless, muddy daubs of primitives?"
And then as the argument continues all the rest of the revelations, so that we may now perceive why Sarah has kept the knowlege of her father from Hanna. Sarah played God and has been tormented by it all these years. So Hanna is the one who had to pay.
I would not have forgiven Ozren...No way... Once betrayed, where is the trust? How could she ever trust him again?
They had a real adventure, putting back the haggadah which makes for camraderie. So perhaps in the last sentence when she didn't pull away, it just meant she hugged him as a farewell gesture, and went back to Australia...sadder and wiser. (At least I hope so).
Evelyn
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Adoannie thanks for the link to the Heath Ledger version of the Kelly Legend. Ledger was brilliant as Kelly -and others in the cast were also superb- Orlando Bloom and the master actor Geoffrey Rush for instance. Ledger's early death was felt keenly here in Perth as he was a local lad.
The original film was made in 1906 and it has been added to the United Nations Heritage Register - not for Kelly's infamy but for being the first feature film worldwide.
Here's a link to the major films made about Kelly during the century since 1906.
www.ironoutlaw.com/html/movies.html
Traude It is my pleasure and so little.
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Evelyn - that's interesting - a farewell hug. See how many interpretations the reader brings to such a detail?
A month wasn't long enough to address all the detail Geraldine Brooks has packed into this book. As Chazz wrote, it "screams" of all the research the author did to accomplish the story of the book. Now comes the time we step back from the detail and examine the overall impact.
I suppose the important thing is - did you enjoy the book? Did you enjoy it more by sharing the experience, knowledge and research of other readers here?
Let's use this final week for a frank discussion of this book. There are questions in the heading to consider from a number of different sources, BUT please don't confine yourself to these questions. (You rarely do ;))
We can add more questions, your own questions that you feel need further consideration.
It would be easier to tally your responses if you don't put them all in one long post. We really want to hear what you thought of this book!
Have a great day, everyone!
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I know this is late to elaborate more, but I came to the book too late to comment then.
In the chapter The Wine Stain, there is the mention f Dona de Serena.
This is not a fictitious person. I think she has not been identified here, but the figure is based on the real person Doña Gracia Nasi, or by her other name Hannah Mendes.
Read about her here
http://www.cryptojews.com/woman_who_defied_kings.htm
You will notice it matches closely the description in our story.
The fictionalized novel 'The Ghost of Hanna Mendes' by Naomi Ragen is well worth reading.The book "The Woman Who Defied Kings" By Andrée Aelion Brooks probably even more so but I haven't found a copy yet.
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GUM, I didn't even know the first full length feature movie was made in
Australia. I'm willing to bet 99.9% of Americans assume the first one was
made in America. I'll remember that tidbit; maybe I can bring it up and
surprise people. (Probably start an arugment. )
That's what I was wondering about Nolan's paintings..whether that seeming
awkwardness was deliberate. I'll have to look into his work and see if
his other paintings are similar to the Kelly series.
BUBBLE, what a fascinating woman! I would love to read that book, too.
I'll join you in the hunt. Do let me know if you find anything.
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GUM, I found a couple of copies on BooksaMillion.com. Link below.
Since they are somewhat over my laughable budget, I plan to ask my
library to check for an interlibrary loan.
http://www.booksamillion.com/search?id=4504296063984&query=The+Woman+Who+Defied+Kings&where=Books&search.x=62&search.y=14
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http://www.paragonhouse.com/product.php?productid=216
It sounds entrailing!
But shipping being more than the price of the book, I'll search in second hands shops here.
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Bubble, most interesting background information in the article by Andrée Aelion Brooks ! Well worth following up.
Incidentally, the Italian city to which Doña Gracia went from Venice next must have been FerrAra (for there is no FerrEra in Italy), governed by the Dukes of Este.
It is no surprise that the secular popes of the Renaissance accepted bribes. The most controversial of them was Pope Alexander VI, born Rodrigo Borgia, well known for his political machinations, who admitted to have fathered children, among them Cesare Borgia and Lucrezia Borgia. The name Borgia became a byword for the debased standards of the papacy in that era.
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An earlier question raised was in relation to whether the Haggadah should remain in Sarajevo'
I rather think so. It has had a troubled history along with its various owners and has moved from place to place with them finally coming rest in Sarajevo. Again, the Haggadah was threatened, protected and finally has now been restored to its rightful place as a priceless artifact. Maybe it will continue its long journey sometime in the coming centuries but for the moment Sarajevo is its home.
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Are we supposed to be giving our opinion of the book now???And whether we agree with the placement of the haggadah in Sarajevo??
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Annie, we have been talking about whether we thought the Haggadah belonged in Sarajeveo or not - would you want to add that question to the header?
I'm going to recopy yesterday's post, just in case - you can add any questions to the header that you would like to talk about this week -
A month wasn't long enough to address all the detail Geraldine Brooks has packed into this book. Now comes the time we step back from the detail and examine the overall impact.
I suppose the important thing is - did you enjoy the book? Did you enjoy it more by sharing the experience, knowledge and research of other readers here?
Let's use this final week for a frank discussion of this book. There are questions in the heading to consider from a number of different sources, BUT please don't confine yourself to these questions. (You rarely do ;))
We can add more questions, your own questions that you feel need further consideration.
It would be easier to tally your responses if you don't put them all in one long post. We really want to hear what you thought of this book!
Let's hear from you - now, this week, before we archive this discussion!
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Bubble, thank you for the information on Doña Gracia Nasi. Surely our Ms. Brooks would have heard of this character on whom she based her Doña de Serena - and yet there is no mention of her in the "Afterword," in which she writes about a good number of the real people of the book on whom her fictional characters are based.
Do you think that is a bit odd?
How many of you read the "Afterword first?" Was it helpful to have the factual information before, or while reading the book, rather than to wait until you had finished the book? Why do you think this information was placed at the end of the book?
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I have not read yet the afterword, but if the author did not mention Hannah Mendes, It is very strange because she is not unknown. Ragen's novel about her was quite successful in reminding people of her existence, even if she appears there as a guiding ghost. Maybe it is a question to ask her, how come the silence...
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/peoplebkcvr.JPG) | You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath, Geraldine Brooks' edgy Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work. How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 14th century?
The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then, into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way. This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain. |
Discussion Schedule:
July 15-19 ~ Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
Sarajevo, 1940
July 20-24 ~ Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96
July 25-July 31 ~ ~ Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
Hanna, Boston, 1996
August 1 - August 5 ~ Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
Hanna, London, Spring, 1996
August 6-August 10 ~ White Hair, Seville, 1480;
Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996
August 11-15 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
Hanna, Gunumeleng, 2002
August 16-August 20 Afterword & Conclusions | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmapsm5.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmaplg5.jpg)
(click twice to really enlarge) |
Topics for Discussion
August 16-August 20 ~ "Afterword" ~ Conclusions
(These questions come from several different sources. Please feel free to add your own.)
1. Some say the "Afterword" should have been located at the start of the book. What do you think? Why do you think the decision was made to place it at the end?
2. In what ways is the Sarajevo Haggadah symbolic of the plight of the Jewish people over the years? Would you say that this became the main theme of the book or do you see an even broader theme?
3. Did Geraldine Brooks conceive a believable history of the Sarajevo Haggadah based on the little that is known of its history? Do you think the different chapters, which told different stories, hung together well?
4. There is an amazing array of “people of the book”—both base and noble—whose lifetimes span some remarkable periods in human history. Who were your favorites?
5. Did you connect with Hanna? Did you find her relationships with her mother and Orzen believable? What did they add to the overall story?
6. Hanna's mother justifies her poor parenting through her feminist ideals. How did you see women's situation change over the years? Do you think Hanna's mothers attitude was necessary to bring about permanent change for women?
7. Do you think the suspenseful ending fit with the rest of the book? Were you surprised by what happened? If you were Hanna, would you have forgiven Orzen?
8. What is this book? It involves secrets, but is it a mystery? A thriller?
9. When Hanna implores Ozren to solicit a second opinion on Alia’s condition, he becomes angry and tells her, “Not every story has a happy ending.” Do you believe this story had a happy ending?
10. After having read this book, can you understand why it has been tops on best seller lists throughout the world? How would you rate this book on a scale of 1-5?
Relevant Links:
Geraldine Brooks - Background information (http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s2446434.htm); Sarajevo Haggadah (http://www.haggadah.ba/); Early Haggadah Manuscripts (http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html); Illuminated Manuscripts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09620a.htm); Brief History of Illuminating Manuscripts (http://www.historicpages.com/texts/mshist.htm); Around Sevlle Image Gallery (http://gospain.about.com/od/seville/ig/Around-Seville-IMAGE-GALLERY/);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com ), & Traudee (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
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Perhaps she put it afterwards because she thought some of the information would be meaningless to someone who hadn't read the book. I read it halfway through, and was glad for the information.
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I noticed the Introduction was placed at the end too, JoanK - but it really doesn't seem like an Introduction...too many spoilers if read first. BUT why is it called "Introduction?"
How many think the information in the "Afterword" should have been included at the start?
Bubble, you're right, that is a good question for G Brooks. How far along are you in the book?
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If we all had read the afterword before finishing the book, we wouldn't have asked so many questions. And, that's no fun! ;)
I found that I didn't think that Hanna was any different than her mother when it came to being very cold. It was as though, IMHO, that if they let anyone see their emotions(and I am not too sure they had very strong emotions) they would loose control of their own little worlds.
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JoanP,
In the first paragraph of the Afterword GB tells the reader that (only) the Hebrew codex known as Sarajevo Hagaddah, and parts of its journey, is a true story while all the characters are imaginary. This belated revelation came as a disappointment to some of us. But there it is = a fait accompli.
Now, if the author believed this information to be essential for the reader, it should have been conveyed at the very beginning, up front, on a separate page. And there's the other point: the appearance of an "Introduction" to the People of the Book AFTER the Afterword. One wonders HOW the editors could not have noticed this oddness, as well as other inconsistencies (among them the wavering spelling of seige vs siege in the printed edition). Even so, all of that can be corrected. None of it should detract from the book.
Much more important IMHO is what we think of the book itself: GB's weaving together the historical journey of the codex with the contemporary story of Hanna as narrator. THAT is GB's achievement, and there is the glory.
I loved the individual episodes (most of all Venice 1609 !!!), "way stations", as I call them, of the hagaddah, told in reverse chronology, and the depiction of the people centuries ago and their environment. For me it was an imaginary feat, and I liked learning about rituals of which I would otherwise have no direct knowledge -- except indirectly e.g. from The Red Tent by Anita Diamant.
Hanna appealied to me in her role of restorer of old manuscripts with all the fascinating details involved, none of which an ordinary person would come across or hear about. Hanna was a feminist, competent in her field and loved her work. I find no fault with any of that.
But her persona was not fleshed out enough (for me). The conflict with the (dreadful) mother was apparent early, so was her own rebelliousness . Yet the precipitous coupling with Ozren, himself an ambiguous figure, was much less convincing. Their "togetherness" lasted for less than a week. It was her work that compelled Hanna to leave Sarajevo. How close emotionally could they have become in that brief period of time?? Can affection develop that soon? Never mind love ...
And when she returned just days later !!!, anxious to see him (and why not?) - just in time for THE event, the official opening of the permanent display of the long lost treasure---- THERE''s her last-minute discovery of the forgery, her frantic, futile efforts to verifiy and rectify it, and after that the devastating dismissal by Heinrich and Ozren, both pitiless in their objections, liars both.
No, I would never forgive an Ozren.
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You have made some good points, Straude and summarized the story very well. And I agree with you, I would never have forgiven Ozren either.
I liked the chapter "White Hair" the most. I admired Zarah, she was a real survivor.
All in all, I enjoyed this book. I'm sorry the discussion is ending.
Evelyn
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JoanP, I only have the Israel chapter and end to read, that will be for tonight. I read quite a lot last night and Zarah haunted my dreams. What a destiny!
The name Sharansky bothered me because we have a minister, origin from Russia, by that name and I find him a very unlovable person, in opposition to the family in the book.
On the other hand, I was interested by Hannah's reaction in meeting her "real" family for personal reasons.
My adopted son has recently had access to his personal adoption file and went to visit his biological relations. It was very much like described in this story. We are a small family and there he found a whole tribe almost, very emotional and demonstrative.
I very much am in tune with Traude's remarks. This story is so vivid and compelling, no matter if the heroes are invented, the background is certainly true and real. It was a stroke of genius to tell it backward and certainly I would not have liked to know from the beginning what is fictious and what is not. It is just one unit, complete.
About where the Hagadah should be... I need to read to the end! I do feel it should remain in Jewish hands though, maybe as safety.
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JoanP I sent you a mail with attachment about facsimile of the Alba Bible.
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Evelyn, I know, I hate to see the discussion come to an end too - there is so much history here - we have only touched on the surface.. which is understandable. We'll stay right here as long as you want to talk. Bubble hasn't even finished the book yet - so we'll definitely want to hear her reaction to the drama at the conclusion.
You are all making good points about reasons for leaving the Afterword just where it is. I admit I had a difficult time separating fact from fiction - all the way through. I tried to heed Anna's advice and surrender to the fiction, but it was difficult for me. As Ann writes,
"If we all had read the afterword before finishing the book, we wouldn't have asked so many questions. And, that's no fun!"
So true, Annie!
Are we agreed that the factual information included in the Afterword should have been included at the end of the book, and not at the beginning?
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Let's talk about the Sarajevo Haggadah itself - the real thing that is now in the National Museum in Sarajevo. Are we all agreed that this is where it remain?
Traudee quoted from the first paragraph of the Afterword - "(only) the Hebrew codex known as Sarajevo Hagaddah, and parts of its journey, is a true story"
We had Geraldine Brooks fictional version of how the illustrations were created separately from the Haggadah, not by a Christian artist, but by a Muslim, a young slave girl, Zahra. Of course we know this is fiction, but the question was never addressed as to whether a Jewish artist would have created such images to accompany the Hebrew text of the Haggadah. It has been assumed that the illuminations were done by a Christian artist and added to the Hebrew text.
Bubble sent me a slide show of the Alba Bible facsimile - another illuminated manuscript of the same period. I was unable to reproduce that slide show here - maybe Bubble can - but want to share this with you. Perhaps it explains how the Jewish texts came to be illuminated...what do you think?
The Alba Bible facsimile (http://www.facsimile-editions.com/en/ab/)
(http://www.facsimile-editions.com/shared/images/ab/1v.s.jpg)
Maqueda, Castile 1422
A prominent Churchman, Don Luis de Guzmán, commands the renowned scholar Rabbi Moses Arragel de Guadalajara to undertake a task of major significance. He is to translate the Hebrew Bible into Castilian and compile an extensive commentary, to be accompanied by a wealth of illustrations and illuminations in a monumental manuscript. The rabbi, loyal to his ancestors and his people, was most reluctant to agree to prepare a text which he felt might conflict with Christian doctrine and thus expose Spanish Jewry to attack.
Pressure exerted by the ecclesiastical authorities eventually forced him to relent. The manuscript known today as the Alba Bible was completed in 1430. It might well have become a symbol of hope for those Jews and Christians who, prior to the tragic end of the Jewish presence in medieval Spain, sought to improve Jewish-Christian relations. Instead, their attempts failed, and the hostility fanned by the Inquisition culminated in the Expulsion of 1492. From now on the manuscript, at that time abandoned and probably even left unbound, will be able to play the role intended for it.
The Alba Bible is not merely a superb example of Spanish manuscript illumination. It is all that remains of one of the last attempts by intellectual Jews and Christians to heal the rifts that finally led to the calamity of expulsion. The facsimile was published as a tribute to and celebration of the reconciliation and renewal of understanding taking place in our own time.
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In answer to "whether a Jewish artist would have created such images to accompany the Hebrew text of the Haggadah" - there is here The Alba Bible from just before the Expulsion of Jews in Spain.
Joan, it contains the text of the Hebrew presentation I forwarded to you earlier.
http://www.facsimile-editions.com/en/ab/
"The decision was itself remarkable, since Don Luis, as a high-ranking Churchman, wielded immense power in Castile. He discovered that Rabbi Moses Arragel, from the small town of Maqueda in Castile, was a person capable of such a task, and commissioned him to produce the work in return for a generous remuneration. The Rabbi had good reason to be reluctant - by exposing the Jewish view he feared he might fuel antagonism towards Jews, and himself in particular. He firmly refused, pointing out a Jewish prohibition against illustrated Bible manuscripts. .....
A full-page miniature depicting its completion shows Don Luis de Guzmán enthroned like King Solomon, with the Rabbi on his knees before him handing over the codex. Two monks, a Franciscan and a Dominican, were assigned to help the Rabbi in his work, doubtless in a supervisory role. A number of Christian artists were employed to illustrate the text. What emerged is no less than a masterpiece. Known as the Alba Bible, after its eventual owner, it is the most important manuscript to have survived from the reign of King John II."
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Thanks, Bubble, I was just about to post the text from your email...
There sure seems to be a strong parallel between both manuscripts - I can imagine the Sarajevo Haggadah created in the same atmosphere, under similar directives.
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I was also thinking of the clasps and the embossed leather cover.
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I loved Ms. Brooks fertile imagination...the finding of those tiny clues in
the Haggadah and the brilliant, engrossing, 'explanations' for each of them.
It's really not surprising that Hanna is like her mother in some ways, ANNIE.
We all know the influence of a mother in shaping a child, especially if there
is no other parent. But it seems to me her Mother's coldness is one reason
Hanna was so grateful for the affection of her mentor, Werner, and the open
friendliness of her Father's family.
It was a stroke of genius to tell it backward and certainly I would not have liked to know from the beginning what is fictious and what is not. It is
just one unit, complete.
I must agree with Bubble. Following each clue backward in time worked
beautifully for me, and I preferred not separating fact from fiction while
reading the story. Afterward was just fine.
From Bubble's quote re. the Alba bible, it appears that the Rabbi's real concern
was that the book might "fuel antagonism" toward the Jews. It seems he used the prohibition again illustrating a Bible as an excuse to refuse. Obviously,
though, he was persuaded to change his mind.
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About the prohibition to reproduce human features - I suppose you are aware that very orthodox families do not allow to be photographed, do not have TV in their house and do not watch it of course.
There is also prohibition on illustrated newspaper.
So the prohibition is still valid in our days, in certain circles.
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I didn't know that, Bubble - but am not surprised. I hope you all got a chance to look at the link Bubble provided - right to the end. I'll paste up the pictures of the clasp on this facsimile of the Alba Bible...and assume that these clasps are reproductions of the original. Helps us to visualize the sort of clasps that were originally on the Sarajevo Haggadah, don't you think? Minus the roses and the butterfly. Same period and all...Thanks!
(http://www.facsimile-editions.com/shared/images/ab/clasp.l.jpg)
(http://www.facsimile-editions.com/shared/images/ab/binding.l.jpg)
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Was Hanna real to you, Babi? It sounds as if you understood her - where she was coming from. It was Sarah Heath that I couldn't understand - her coldness. Sooo, I let my imagination go to flesh out what was missing and then I felt sorry for her - a lonely woman. Was she real to you? When asked about her favorite characters in the book, Geraldine Brooks wrote that she will miss hanging out with Hanna - but that her favorite characters of the book were probably the flawed ones. Which were your favorites?
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Hanna is definitely very real and alive, and one can identify with the various mood she shows.Sarah is harder to identify with although believable in those situations.
In each chapter I was sorry to let the protagonists go. Zahra is probably the one who will stay in mind for a long time... unless the last chapter brings me a new surprise.
The Bible has two clasps because it is a very big and heavy volume. The Hagada is more like a pocket book and would have had only one in the middle.
I remember in the early '50s my granddad sent me from Israel an illustrated Bible (by Doré) when I was a child. It was bound in cheap brown leather imitation plastic - that was the hard time here after the creation of the State. Still, it had metal wrought corners and a strap with a metal clasp holding it closed. Nothing elaborate, more like an ornate push button, but it followed the tradition of these old books I suppose.
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Bubble, thank you for that magnificent link. THERE is the eloquence Hanna referred to in
the last Sarajevo chapter, and JoanP had a question about. This demonstrates the same painstaking work. But there's so much more to see and study.
It is gratifying that the order to expel the Jews from Spain in 1492 was repealed, quite fittingly, five hundred years later.
I was in Europe in 1992 but have no recollection of this happening.
JoanP I'm not sure what you mean by "real". Of course Hanna is real to me too, I just feel her character is not as fully developed, and simply not as convincing. But that's just MHO. I'm not trying to "sway" anybody - not my style. Is it necessary for us to reach a consensus on this point?
Let me reiterate that all the historical characters are vividly drawn in absorbing detail, and I would have loved to spend more time twith them than was allotted. It was hard to tear myself away from the "Saltwater" chapter. To me, Ruti is a compelling, heroic figure. And then there's Zahra, a truly unforgettable character. Surely we can "nominate" more than one favorite character? :)
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http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/12/03/071203fa_fact_brooks
I don't know if you have seen this article in the Newyorker - relating to the chapter Lola at the end of the book.
"Servet told the writer about how Dervis rescued a young Jewish girl named Mira Papo, in April of 1942, by bringing her home and passing her off as a Muslim servant. Mira had been a member of the Young Guardians, a socialist Zionist youth movement.
After the war, Mira returned to Sarajevo and was commissioned as an officer in Tito’s Army medical corps. In 1946, she ran into Servet, who begged her to testify at Dervis’s war-crimes trial; Dervis was being charged with aiding the Fascists. But Mira never testified because her fiancé feared the Party would turn against her. She assumed that Dervis had been executed, but, in 1994, she read a newspaper article which revealed that Dervis had died an elderly man, from natural causes, in 1969. Now aged seventy-two, Mira wrote a three-page letter to the Commission for the Designation of the Righteous at Yad Vashem, Israel’s Holocaust memorial center, which testified to Dervis’s heroic actions."
Quote by Joan:"I noticed the Introduction was placed at the end too, JoanK - but it really doesn't seem like an Introduction...too many spoilers if read first. BUT why is it called "Introduction?"
I don't have any "introduction" in my book, neither at the start and nor at the end. it is a hard cover edition by Viking. What does your introduction says?
About my feelings about this book. I am still enthralled, trying to digest all the episodes and especially that big surprise at the end. The special lighting revealing the signature was a real genius touch.
I was not that surprised about the deed from Dr Heindrich. It is the way fanatical men act and they know how to prey on a moment of weakness in others such as Ozren, so for me it is quite believable.
About finding the Hagadah on a shelf among other books, with no one the wiser - again, there are many stories like that of extraordinary finds in archives at Yad ve-Shem.
They receive so many documents, so many crates of papers and memorabilia from all over, that it takes time and informed personal to check and catalog. Some of these archives for sure get forgotten in cellars or storage rooms to be discovered in awe years later.
I do like the new turn taken in Hannah's life and her new interest. It is her salvation to work at something she likes, especially after the quest with the Haggadah. After all anything would have seemed trite after such an adventure. That she finally is vindicated and gets her self confidence back is most satisfying.
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STRAUDE, I so much appreciate your post. The story of Mira Papo and the
information about the 'many stories like that' from the archives at Yad ve-Shem tend to validate for me the 'fictional' stories we enjoyed so much from GB.
I am so impressed with Geraldine Brooks research, scholarship and strong
creative imagination...I'm now a dedicated reader of whatever she may write
next.
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Thanks for the info about Mira Papo. Very interesting.
I must agree with SoP that Dr. Heindrich's actions are totally believable. As for Lola finding the Hagadah, that is also very, very believable. How many times have we read over the years about stuff stored away in museums, etc. that went unrecognized, mislabeled, and/or forgotten for many years before they are, often, accidentally found again.
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Babi, it sounds as if you are giving this book a high rating - perhaps the highest on a scale of 1-5. I will be interested to hear how others will rate it.
When you say that you are now a dedicated reader and look forward to what Geraldine Brooks will write next...I agree. That is a question that I sent on to Ms. Brooks, though I have a dim memory of reading that in one of her interviews - but that was a while ago, and of course, my memory what it is, I can't recall where I read it. IF we do hear back from her, and this discussion is already closed and archived, I'll post her responses in the Archived discussion AND in the SeniorLearn Library.
BUT, I'm wondering if you ever read her Pulitzer Prize winning "March." (March - the absent father of the Little Women.) Might it be something you would be interested in reading and discussing here on SeniorLearn? Shall I put it in the Suggestion Box? Here are some reviews you might be interested in:
From Publishers WeeklyStarred Review. Brooks's luminous second novel, after 2001's acclaimed Year of Wonders, imagines the Civil War experiences of Mr. March, the absent father in Louisa May Alcott's Little Women. An idealistic Concord cleric, March becomes a Union chaplain and later finds himself assigned to be a teacher on a cotton plantation that employs freed slaves, or "contraband." His narrative begins with cheerful letters home, but March gradually reveals to the reader what he does not to his family: the cruelty and racism of Northern and Southern soldiers, the violence and suffering he is powerless to prevent and his reunion with Grace, a beautiful, educated slave whom he met years earlier as a Connecticut peddler to the plantations. In between, we learn of March's earlier life: his whirlwind courtship of quick-tempered Marmee, his friendship with Emerson and Thoreau and the surprising cause of his family's genteel poverty. When a Confederate attack on the contraband farm lands March in a Washington hospital, sick with fever and guilt, the first-person narrative switches to Marmee, who describes a different version of the years past and an agonized reaction to the truth she uncovers about her husband's life. Brooks, who based the character of March on Alcott's transcendentalist father, Bronson, relies heavily on primary sources for both the Concord and wartime scenes; her characters speak with a convincing 19th-century formality, yet the narrative is always accessible. Through the shattered dreamer March, the passion and rage of Marmee and a host of achingly human minor characters, Brooks's affecting, beautifully written novel drives home the intimate horrors and ironies of the Civil War and the difficulty of living honestly with the knowledge of human suffering.
From School Library Journal
In Brooks's well-researched interpretation of Louisa May Alcott's Little Women, Mr. March also remains a shadowy figure for the girls who wait patiently for his letters. They keep a stiff upper lip, answering his stiff, evasive, flowery letters with cheering accounts of the plays they perform and the charity they provide, hiding their own civilian privations. Readers, however, are treated to the real March, based loosely upon the character of Alcott's own father. March is a clergyman influenced by Thoreau, Emerson, and especially John Brown (to whom he loses a fortune). His high-minded ideals are continually thwarted not only by the culture of the times, but by his own ineptitude as well. A staunch abolitionist, he is amazingly naive about human nature. He joins the Union army and soon becomes attached to a hospital unit. His radical politics are an embarrassment to the less ideological men, and he is appalled by their lack of abolitionist sentiments and their cruelty. When it appears that he has committed a sexual indiscretion with a nurse, a former slave and an old acquaintance, March is sent to a plantation where the recently freed slaves earn wages but continue to experience cruelty and indignities. Here his faith in himself and in his religious and political convictions are tested. Sick and discouraged, he returns to his little women, who have grown strong in his absence. March, on the other hand, has experienced the horrors of war, serious illness, guilt, regret, and utter disillusionment.-Jackie Gropman, Chantilly Regional Library, VA
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Brooks' first book, Nine Parts of Desire (1994), based on her experiences among Muslim women in the Middle East, was an international bestseller, translated into 17 languages.
Foreign Correspondence (1997), which won the Nita Kibble Literary Award for women's writing, was a memoir and travel adventure about a childhood enriched by penpals from around the world, and her adult quest to find them.
These two sounds very intriguing two.
I had so many pen pals as a child, but oinly managed to find two of them as an adult.
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Bubble, what I like about GBrooks' books is that they take us outside of our own little circles and into the larger world of people who are in many ways different than we are. Those two books are nonfiction if I'm not mistaken.
Pen pals do the same thing, don't they? I had a pen pal when in high school who was from Aruba. I wonder what happened to her. I remember her telling me that they had no trees on Aruba. I'm not so sure that's still true...high school was a long time ago.
Is it necessary for us to reach a consensus on this point?
Oh, Traudee, no of course not - a consensus is not necessary on any point. But there do seem to be some points on which we all seem to agree...
Same thing is true about favorite characters. I find that I'm in agreement with GBrooks - it is the "flawed" characters that I tend to favor. Maybe because the flawed characters are more fleshed out. We're all flawed, aren't we? - And the more that is revealed about us, the more flaws become apparent, the more "human" we become. Father Vistorini and the Rabbi were among my favorites for this reason.
Funny, but on one level, I don't regard Hanna as one of the fictional characters - she's the narrator, she's G Brooks in a way. That must mean that I found her "real" - But for some reason, Ozren didn't come off that way - nor did Sarah Heath. They both seem to represent something, but it was difficult to get to know them or to understand Hanna's relationship with them. What do you think GBrooks was attempting to tell us through Sarah Heath's character?
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As for Lola finding the Hagadah, that is also very, very believable. How many times have we read over the years about stuff stored away in museums, etc. that went unrecognized, mislabeled, and/or forgotten for many years before they are, often, accidentally found again.
Frybabe, I agree, Lola's finding the Haggadah while dusting was entirely believable. What I thought was unbelievable was not the fact that she was the one to find it, as an old woman, but that it was the young girl, Lola, along with the Kamals who spirited the book out of Sarajevo before WW
II. Wasn't that a bit too much? I'll admit, there was something satisfying about it - as fiction, but it was a stretch I thought. Of course, it makes sense that others had probably seen the book on the shelf, but that Lola was able to recognize it for what it was because she had seen it 50 years before in Sarajevo.
Bubble, I was absolutely blown away the the New Yorker story on Mira Papo! Of course that has to be Lola!
Let me go to the back of my book and tell you about the Introduction...as I recall, it's a page and a half long... Here it is, word for word -
Introduction to People of the Book - located in the back of the book. (http://us.penguingroup.com/static/rguides/us/people_of_the_book.html)
Scanning to the bottom of this page, I see this in an Interview with GBrooks:
Q. What are you working on now?
I’m just at the earliest stages of exploring an intriguing story set very close to home, on Martha’s Vineyard. It concerns people who lived on this island in 1666, one of my favorite years, and seems to have just the right mix of knowns and unknowables—a lovely incomplete scaffold to build on.
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Thank you Joan for the introduction. I am glad I did not read that at the beginning! It would have spoiled discovering the book's mystery step by step.
I can tell you that this is going to be a cherished book that I will re-read again soon , leisurely and pausing often. I just love it.
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This was the perfect book to read in an unline group, and this discussion has highlighted some of the many reasons why our discussions are so special, aside from the high quality of the people who participate. The fact that we are online means we can bring in resources from all over the world: actually SEE pictures of the places depicted, actually follow the history briefly referred to. And we can actually study the pictures of the book as we go along, especially the picture with "our Zahra" in it. And while BUBBLE and GUMTREE contribute greatly to every discussion they're in, to have someone who can read and interpret the Haggadah and pictures for us and an Australian familiar with the rock painting and Australian art is so very special.
This book and the discussion based on it have taken us everywhere: Jewish tradition, history of widespread people and places, art, techniques of art and reconstruction, medicine, astronomy, music... it's hard to find an area of human endeavor that we haven't touched on. To encompass so much in one book is so extraordinary, I can't find words to express it.
And as usual, JoanP and my fellow DLs have done a fantastic job. I'm proud to work with them.
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JoanK,
I absolutely agree with everything you said, and said so well. This was a great discussion made so much better with all the links that were provided.
This discussion has taken me outside myself and my own very limited little world. The internet is a wonderful thing. I personally would be lost without it.
Bubble,
I also am going to keep this book to read again and just enjoy. Thanks for the info on the young Jewish girl Miro Pappo. It sure sounds as if Lola was based on her.
JoanP,
I am glad the Introduction was at the back of the book. It sounds like something that would be on a book jacket, but it goes into a lot of detail that I think is best kept until the story unfolds.
Also I think the Afterwords is in the right spot. I didn't need to know what was fiction and what was fact. As I read the book, the characters were all very real to me and I just didn't think about "is this fact or fiction".
This was a wonderful book and this was one of the best discussions I have been in.
I am forward to reading and discussing another book by Geraldine Brooks soon.
Evelyn
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Did anyone suspect the professor with his seeming love and like of Hanna? I think back to when one might have suspected that the sweet man was a little ditzy. That would be when we were introduced to him and the little gal at the Historical Museum, Frau Zweig, who thought he and his garb choices were a hoot. "Velvet suits and that last century thing that he has going." And, she referred to him as "Werner" which surprised Hanna.
Just because I didn't like the Hannah character doesn't mean that I didn't like the book. I would suppose that she is the person that she is due to the poor example she had for a mother. But the cold attitude does wash through each of them.
I am not sure that she was going back to Ozren but if one wants a happy ending, the reader can choose to have one. I am hoping that she returned to continue to preserve the Sharansky Foundation's projects. Those cave paintings are real and so fascinating.
I loved the history that I learned about the Jewish sectors in each city and all those wonderful links that everyone found. We have truly made our trek a most fascinating one as we talked about the characters and the history in this book. I might try to read "March" later when I am done with Frances Perkins. I have already read many stories about "March" who is the father of the Louisa May Allcott.
I think GB is outstanding author and certainly has certainly fleshed out the history of the Sarajevo Haggadah enough to make it a real possibility.
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When I read about the Alcott family, I remember reading that they had been involved in the Trancendental Movement and, at one time, the father, Bronson Alcott, moved the Alcott family to the Brook Farm which was their first try at a type of commune living?? I am not sure of the commune living thing. Along with the Alcotts, there was Ralph Waldo Emerson and maybe, Henry David Thoreau. Anyone need to know more? ;) ;)
http://www.vcu.edu/engweb/transcendentalism/ideas/brhistory.html (http://www.vcu.edu/engweb/transcendentalism/ideas/brhistory.html)
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Adoannie
You'll enjoy March by GB. Our live group had an extended discussion of it last year.
The book is about the American Civil War and the father in Little Women by Louisa May Alcott, a father we never meet in the book because he's away fighting in the waar. GB has beautifully imagined him and the book is a gem.
Yes, transcendentalism was a philosophical, religious and literary movement in New England. Emerson and Thoreau were leading
lights.
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Well, okay, it sounds as if March is something to consider for a future discussion then. I'll put it in the Suggestion Box and see what happens.
Traudee asked a question last week that we might be ready to answer now - "What is this book? It involves secrets, but is it a mystery? A thriller?"
Everywhere I look, the book is described as a mystery. But what is the mystery? Is it the Haggadah's survival over the ages, or is it the drama in the last chapter involving the spiriting of the book to Israel and then back again in Hanna's luggage to Sarajevo? Would you call the book a mystery?
Do you think the suspenseful ending fit with the rest of the book?
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I would call it a quest... I do like the ending: unexpected until to the end.
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GB did seem to spend more time 'fleshing out' the characters on the
Haggadah side of the story line. But that really was the central theme of
the book. Ozren and Sarah Heath were added to give Hanna a bit more
dimension, perhaps, but we know very little about them, really.
"March" does seem to cover a lot of territory, JOANP, and would offer a lot
of possibilities for discussion. Let me get my hands on a copy and see how
I like it. I'll get back to you when I know more.
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A quest...Bubble, I like that. Tell more. A quest for...? I've an idea, but would like to hear what you have in mind first.
Babi, that would be great! We need more information on March to attract readers to a discussion. Thanks!
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Today is a good day~ We have a response from Geraldine Brooks - she's answered all of the questions. Did I miss any? I'll post the responses here and if you would like to ask something else, she seems to be quite ammenable to answering...
She writes, " I was interested to read about your forum and happy to answer questions. See notes in CAPS below.
Yesterday a participant brought us the story of Mira Papo from the recent New Yorker magazine. Surely she is Lola? NOT EXACTLY BUT THE INSPIRATION FOR HER. Have you seen this issue? I WROTE THAT ARTICLE. THE TRUE STORY WAS SO POWERFUL I HAD TO TELL IT.
Someone posted about the life of Dona Gracia Nasi, who was clearly the real-life Dona de Serena. YES, SHE WAS THE INSPIRATION
I notice that several of the sources we consulted place the origin of the Haggadah around 1350, more that a century before you do. Is this a matter of scholarly debate? YES. THE HOPE IS THAT NOW SARAJEVO HAS RETURNED TO STABILITY AND THE BOOK IS BEING PROPERLY CURATED THERE WILL BE TIME FOR FULLER STUDY TO RESOLVE SUCH ISSUES.
Was the emir in the White hair section based on an historical figure: either the Christian Ferdinand, or an actual emir? NO, NOT REALLY. HE WAS KIND OF A MASH UP OF SEVERAL EMIRS.
Is the round earth part of the impetus for making the artist Muslim? NOT SO MUCH. IT'S JUST THAT SCHOLARS DON'T THINK THE ARTIST WAS JEWISH...SO...GIVEN THAT IT'S CONVIVENCIA, WHY NOT MUSLIM?
In discussing La Convivencia and the cycle of tolerance to intolerance , the question arose as to why the intolerance keeps returning. Any ideas?
A DEFECTIVE GENE IN HOMO SAPIENS? I DON'T KNOW HOW ELSE TO ACCOUNT FOR IT.
Did you intend for us to notice the Kohen family who sold the Haggadah to the Museum in Sarajevo and Fr. Vistorini’s memory of his surname, Cohain are the same? Can you address the implication here? YES. IT'S UP TO THE READER, BUT THE SUGGESTION IS THAT POSSIBLY AT SOME POINT VISTORINI RETRIEVES HIS HERITAGE AND PASSES THE BOOK ON TO HIS HEIRS. BUT ONLY IF THE READER LIKES THAT IDEA.
A note from one of our music loving "nitpickers" - Mahler's "latest" work, published in 1894 did not receive its first performance until the following year in Berlin. His second came out in 1889 in Budapest. HA! THANKS FOR THAT...LOVING THE LEVEL OF DETAIL...
From a reader in MA, Boston's Dana Faber is Dana-Farber. YES THAT'S BEEN CORRECTED.
We understand that Catherine Zeta-Jones owns the movie rights to People of the Book. Does this mean she might play Hanna Heath? YES, SHE INTENDS TO.
What do you think of that? SHE'S A BIT MORE OF A BOMBSHELL, FRANKLY, THAN I IMAGINED, BUT HEY, I'LL TAKE IT.
Please let me know if there are any more questions you would like to put to Geraldine Brooks. Doesn't she sound like someone you'd like to hang out with?
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we agree about katherine zeta jones. she just is not hanna. too bad for the movie's sake and those of us who have adopted the people in the book. Interesting responses. thank you GB
about the art it was more fourteenth centery than fifteenth. that is the thirteen hundreds but could have been christian except for the lack of halos and religious personages. The family is not a christion family or even a muslin one to my knowledge and since Jews didn't encourage images at that time they simply used the tools at hand when needing to express with images. I like her suggestion that it had a political purpose for the artist . . . rather than a religious one.
Claire
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Quest? similar to quest for the Holy Grail legends...
"The Grail plays a different role everywhere it appears, but in most versions of the legend the hero must prove himself worthy to be in its presence. In the early tales, Percival's immaturity prevents him from fulfilling his destiny when he first encounters the Grail, and he must grow spiritually and mentally before he can locate it again."
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hannah searches for the truth about the Hagadah and at the same time she gains strength of character and maturity.
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There are many quest books: ancient and modern: "Lord of the Rings" comes to mind.
I think it would be legitimate to call it either a "Quest" or a "mystery" (the mystery being it's past, and how each of the things found in it got there) but someone expecting either a quest book or a mystery would certainly be bemused by it. I LIKE the fact that it doesn't fit any standard catagory or plot.
Thank GB for the answers to our questions. I'm glad she likes the level of detail; so do I.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/peoplebkcvr.JPG) | You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath, Geraldine Brooks' edgy Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work. How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 14th century?
The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then, into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way. This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain. |
Discussion Schedule:
July 15-19 ~ Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
Sarajevo, 1940
July 20-24 ~ Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96
July 25-July 31 ~ ~ Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
Hanna, Boston, 1996
August 1 - August 5 ~ Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
Hanna, London, Spring, 1996
August 6-August 10 ~ White Hair, Seville, 1480;
Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996
August 11-15 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
Hanna, Gunumeleng, 2002
August 16-August 20 Afterword & Conclusions | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmapsm5.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmaplg5.jpg)
(click twice to really enlarge) |
Topics for Discussion
August 16-August 20 ~ "Afterword" ~ Conclusions
(These questions come from several different sources. Please feel free to add your own.)
1. Some say the "Afterword" should have been located at the start of the book. What do you think? Why do you think the decision was made to place it at the end?
2. In what ways is the Sarajevo Haggadah symbolic of the plight of the Jewish people over the years? Would you say that this became the main theme of the book or do you see an even broader theme?
3. Did Geraldine Brooks conceive a believable history of the Sarajevo Haggadah based on the little that is known of its history? Do you think the different chapters, which told different stories, hung together well?
4. There is an amazing array of “people of the book”—both base and noble—whose lifetimes span some remarkable periods in human history. Who were your favorites?
5. Did you connect with Hanna? Did you find her relationships with her mother and Orzen believable? What did they add to the overall story?
6. Hanna's mother justifies her poor parenting through her feminist ideals. How did you see women's situation change over the years? Do you think Hanna's mothers attitude was necessary to bring about permanent change for women?
7. Do you think the suspenseful ending fit with the rest of the book? Were you surprised by what happened? If you were Hanna, would you have forgiven Orzen?
8. What is this book? It involves secrets, but is it a mystery? A thriller?
9. When Hanna implores Ozren to solicit a second opinion on Alia’s condition, he becomes angry and tells her, “Not every story has a happy ending.” Do you believe this story had a happy ending?
10. After having read this book, can you understand why it has been tops on best seller lists throughout the world? How would you rate this book on a scale of 1-5?
Relevant Links:
Geraldine Brooks - Background information (http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s2446434.htm); Sarajevo Haggadah (http://www.haggadah.ba/); Early Haggadah Manuscripts (http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html); Illuminated Manuscripts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09620a.htm); Brief History of Illuminating Manuscripts (http://www.historicpages.com/texts/mshist.htm); Around Sevlle Image Gallery (http://gospain.about.com/od/seville/ig/Around-Seville-IMAGE-GALLERY/);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com ), & Traudee (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
IMHO People of the Book is not easy to categorize.
While a mystery is at the core of the book - indeed it is the book's raison d'être -, it is not a mystery in the classical definition of the word. It has fervor, passion and romantic elements in it, but it is not a romance. Could we call it
a novel of ideals? Alas, there is no such category. I believe the book is in a category all its own: sui generis.
It is very generous of GB to take time out of her busy life to answer our questions. We are humbly grateful, GB!
It was an immense pleasure, and a privilege, to co-lead and discuss the saga of the Sarajevo Haggadah with such enthusiastic, interested and knowledgeable participants. My gratitude to all , and special thanks to those who contributed the links that visually complement the eloquence of the book and the richness of the details.
Traude
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Now we can all look forward with anticipation to the movie. It will be
interesting to see if Zeta-Jones can play down her 'bombshell' affect and
give us a believable Hanna.
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Thanks for all the kind words, folks. We appreciate it - BUT of course, as Annie, JoanK and Traude have mentioned, the discussion would not have been as rich as it was without your contributions. Let's hear it for SeniorLearn Bookies!
I loved Geraldine Brooks' responses - she answered every single one that we put to her in such a forthright way. I particularly liked what she said about Father Vistorini - "YES. IT'S UP TO THE READER, BUT THE SUGGESTION IS THAT POSSIBLY AT SOME POINT VISTORINI RETRIEVES HIS HERITAGE AND PASSES THE BOOK ON TO HIS HEIRS. BUT ONLY IF THE READER LIKES THAT IDEA. " So that's what she was doing when she left things up in the air - leaving it to the reader... I suppose when the solitary reader sitting on his/her porch reaches a conclusion - but here, we spent much time sharing our own views. I thought that was so much fun!
That's what makes these discussions go round.
So, are we ready for more Brooks? We can go forward and consider reading her new book, set in 17th century Martha's Vineyard
OR
We can think about going back to her Pulitizer Prize winning, March - referring to the little women's absent papa. When was the last time you read "Little Women?" How about we read and discuss both - Little Women AND March? I could really go for that!
Babi - I think Catherine Zeta-Jones is capable of turning herself into Hanna, I really do. Let's keep an eye out for word of the movie. I thought it was funny that Ms. Brooks and Claire were in complete agreement about the bombshell effect - How does that work? Can an actress just buy rights to a film and then choose to star in it? Really?
Let's spend the rest of our time together on unanswered questions and our own "afterwords." How about this question - how would you answer it?
When Hanna implores Ozren to solicit a second opinion on Alia’s condition, he becomes angry and tells her, “Not every story has a happy ending.” Do you believe this story had a happy ending?
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As long as the actress is credible, I don't care who plays "Hanna". I am looking forward to the movie. We know the story is well presented by our author. Anyone have an idea as to date??
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I really like the idea of leaving some things open to the readers imagination.
It sort of makes the reader a participant, doesn't it? This is a quite different
thing, IMO, from leaving something important unresolved. I admit it might be
hard to explain the distinction, but Brooks achieved it here.
It's not uncommon, JOAN, for an actor to read something he/she really
likes and instruct an agent to buy the filming rights. It's usually for a brief
term, perhaps a year,so I guess it's actually a lease. If the buyer decides not to make the film after all someone else will then have an opportunity to bid
for it.
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I have also read another of GB's books: Year of Wonder. It, too, is an amazing story that I would happily read again.
I still can't get my head around the events of the book's creation because it was written in reverse chronological order. (Fibro fog is my ever-present companion.) Did they mesh? Did one chapter butt up against another so we can watch the journey of the Haggadah uninterrupted?
I think my favorite chapter was Wine Stains and the interaction between Vistorini and Aryeh. Perhaps it was the longest, most fleshed out chapter, too.
I don't think I'll see the movie when it's released. My imagination creates scenes as I read the book. I know those scenes will not be shown in the movie and won't take the chance that I'll be disappointed.
I've enjoyed this discussion, as I have others I've participated in here. Thank you JoanP for being our guide through this wonderful story. And thanks to everyone who commented, posted links and filled in the historical parts.
-- Nancy
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http://www.geraldinebrooks.com/wonders.html
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We all know that not all stories have happy endings, and that's life.
In POB, the story of the Sarajevo Haggadah ended happily, gloriously and in triumph. A happy end for Hanna, though, is not
apparent at the end of the book, but GB left it to us to imagine whatever ending we might prefer. I agree with Babi's comment.
I liked GB's answer to our question about the reason for the repetitive cycles of religious intolerance in several parts of the world: "A defective gene in homo sapiens?"
"Wine Stains" was a special chapter for me, too, because I lived in the city a lifetime ago. It has a special kind of luminosity.
Incidentally, Venice was the first city to have street lamps, installed in 1732, several years ahead of London. The characters of the rabbi and the priest were wonderfully imagined and totally credible. BTW, the famous Venice carnival season was suspended during the war years.
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I don't think one can really classify POB as any particular genre but I think the overriding impression is of history and the habit humans have of allowing the history to repeat itself. It's also the story of survival - the survival of the Haggadah, the survival of the oppressed, the survival of religious faith, and above all, the survival of a humanity which transcends ethnic and religious considerations.
Geraldine Brooks weaved these elements into an engrossing story which captured the reader's imagination. Her characters seem real and we are left with enough unresolved ends to keep us interested in the characters even after the story moves on or we reach the end of the novel.
Personally I enjoyed the journey backwards in time and the shifts in location necessitated by the Haggadah's placement. The movements meant that the stories GB built around the Haggadah were brief but how I was amazed at how well they were fleshed out and how much I cared about the Haggadah and the people who safeguarded it through so many centuries.
As usual the in-depth discussion was probing and the wealth of knowledge shared by SL participants is really something to behold. I am grateful to everyone for their contributions. Special thanks to our leaders who do such a brilliant job teasing out opinions and clarifying issues raised by the reading. Wonderful. Thank you all.
As for March - I've read it and must say that I'd never given any thought to who the father in Little Women was based on or what was really going on at the time at least in relation to the Little Women story so it took me quite by surprise. It could be worth a discussion though I think I'd rather wait to see what GB's next novel holds for us.
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And here's one last plug for Australia-
This is the general view of Sydney Harbour Hanna would have seen from the Department of Foreign Affairs office (though her view would be from a higher vantage point and more panoramic) It shows the Sydney Opera House on Bennelong Point and the Bridge stretching from the CBD area to the North Shore. If you can zoom in to the Bridge you'll see two flags flying on the apex of the arch - they are each the size of a tennis court.
The leaves on the tree framing the picture are of a Moreton Bay Figtree located in the Botanical Gardens which the DFAt offices overlook and from where Hanna took a tiny seed of the Moreton Bay Figtree to place between the quires of the Haggadah for future restorers to ponder.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Sydney_Harbour_Bridge_and_Opera_House.jpg
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A few more pictures of Sydney in this Wikipedia article - the Harbour is immense and very beautiful - it's really Port Jackson but known worldwide as Sydney Harbour.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Jackson
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Ah Gum, it has meant so much to us to have you join us - your posts bring a true picture of Australia to us...that it is not all dusty Outback - or a town called Alice. The breathtaking rock art links brought us back in time to aboriginal roots, and the photos of big cities show us as modern and bustling as any in the world! Personally, I loved the twisted gumtree - though still wonder if all gum trees "twist" - and if they grow all over - in the modern city of Perth for example! I will always have the image of that twisted tree when I see your name, Gum.
Your mention of the fig tree seed Hanna planted for future restorers suggests to me that People of the Book may not have had a "happy ending" - that the jury is still out. Traudee reminds us of that old "defective gene in homo sapiens" which may still rear its ugly head before all is said and done. Perhaps we haven't reached the "end of the story yet - sadly.
I see Hanna returning back to Australia too, Annie - I don't see Oz ever wanting to leave Sarajevo. So, I don't see a romantic "happy ending" here either. If there was a happy ending, it was the fact that Hanna learned the truth of what had happened to the Haggadah, her confidence in herself restored. Oh, and Ozren, having a part in smuggling the precious manuscript back into Sarajevo meant redemption for his earlier act of taking it out. I'm afraid I forget what happened to the facsimile that is supposed to have been on exhibit in Sarajevo for those six years or so...I do remember praying that the facsimile not be burned - enough book burning in this book! But where did it go?
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Claire, your contributions on the "arty" sections of the book were invaluable - and the photo of sweet Laura will go into the archives with this discussion. Thank you for sharing that. Babi, thanks for the explanation of what it means to have "film rights" to a movie. A lease. Nancy, I smiled when I heard that you do not intend to see the film no matter who plays Hanna. I can understand that. As Babi says, she likes the idea of leaving some things open to the readers imagination. I had seen Zeta-Jones photo early in our discussion - and she became my image of Hanna so early, that if she actually does play the role, I won't be disappointed. I think she can play down the "bombshell" image.
It's funny, that women and their relationships were such an important part of Brooks' story - and yet a good number of us treasure the wine stain story with the rendering of the relationship of the priest and the rabbi as favorites. Me too! I thought GB did a masterful job with these two characters!
Before we go our separate ways - until the next journey - (Dickens, anyone? - his last, perhaps his best, certainly Edwin Drood will never leave you!) - I'd love it if you address question number 2 -
None will argue the fact that the Haggadah's survival was symbolic of the plight of the Jewish people over the years - but do you see an even broader theme here?
Have a SUPER Sunday, everyone!
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A beautiful view, GUM. Thanks for finding it for us.
It occurs to me that filming this book is bound to be difficult. How will
they pursue the clues found in the Haggadah, telling all those different
stories? Will it be too much? Will the viewer be able to understand what
is taking place, or will it be therribly confusing? Hmm....
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Big Thanks to our wonderful DL's JoanP, Traudee and JoanK. I have really enjoyed the book and the detailed discussion, although visitors this month kept me away from my computer and from participation. This was truly an excellent choice for SeniorLearn !
I've recently read March, and I'm not sure if I'd participate in a discussion, but perhaps others would like it better. Gumtree ~ I agree that Brooks' upcoming new novel might be worth waiting for, rather than a discussion of March.
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Thanks JoanP, Traude and JoanK. It was a most enlightening book discussion.
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Great book. Great discussion. Thanks to all you fellow SeniorLearn Bookies.
Evelyn
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JoanP
I thought of a description of this book. I call it a "history mystery". Really liked it and am looking forward to the next one. I enjoyed this more than "The Da Vinci Code".
Thanks to all you joined us in this most enticing story. See ya' next time. ::)
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I'm sorry I was traveling and without much internet access for the end of this discussion. But I wasn't needed. You said it all--asked and answered every question I could think of except one (I wondered if any particular Australian painter was the model for Sharansky's work) with exceptional completeness.
This is an example of SeniorLearn discussions at their very best: a complex and interesting book, inspiring and dedicated DLs, and an active, interested, group of participants, all with their own special knowledge to add, and all willing to dig up a wealth of extra information.
Hip, hip, hooray for everyone!!!
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Thank you, everyone! Hasn't this been a grand adventure! It doesn't seem to want to end. Please meet in the Library if you come across anything related to this story- once this discussion has been archived, okay? What do you think, a "history mystery"?
Annie, you asked the question about a date set for the movie and I passed it on to Geraldine B., who responded -
"NOT YET. NOT EVEN A SCRIPT YET."
I almost asked her who would be writing the film script, but this might be a sensitive area for an author, don't you think?
PatH - hopefully you had a good vacation. We just got back from granddaughter's 8th birthday celebration in Memphis. Now we need to rest!
I passed your question about the Australian painter who was the model for Sharansky's work to GB this morning and she responded immediately -
"NO PARTICULAR ARTIST. IT'S THE PAINTING I WOULD PAINT, IF I COULD PAINT."
How about we remain open another day or so before turning out the lights? Hopefully the same cohort will move on to the next discussion...Dickens' The Mystery of Edwin Drood. As PatH put it so beautifully - "This is an example of SeniorLearn discussions at their very best." I agree, wholeheartedly!
Hip, hip!!!
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I'm sorry in a way that Sharansky isn't modeled after a real painter, because I'd love to see his works. I have a definite mental picture of what they would be like, based partly on the aboriginal paintings people have posted links to, and partly on the description on p. 203: "...a gorgeous, burning expanse of Australian sky with just a strip of hard red desert implied in a few lines of paint in the lower quarter of the canvas."
I see them as looking raw, crude and stark at first glance, but as you stare at them you see both great power and considerable subtlety.
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I see that Catherine Zeta-Jones will be starring in a new Broadway production
of "A Little Night Music", with Angela Lansbury. So it does not appear as though she will be filming "The People of the Book" anytime soon. Ah well,
perhaps while she is on Broadway, some writers will be working on the film
play. Hope so.
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PatH, from the way GB describes the fictional Sharansky artwork that she sees in her mind, I wouldn't be surprised if she picked up her brushes that she couldn't produce something every bit as striking as what she describes.
And Babi, since the screenplay hasn't even been written, I wouldn't expect a movie any time soon. Wouldn't that be an unenviable task, trying to write the screenplay for this book? Let's share any news we might hear about a movie - in the Library.
All good things must come to an end. This discussion must now be archived, but not before thanking all of you for making this discussion what it was! PatH said it best - I won't even try to add to it - Thanks everyone!
"This is an example of SeniorLearn discussions at their very best: a complex and interesting book, inspiring and dedicated DLs, and an active, interested, group of participants, all with their own special knowledge to add, and all willing to dig up a wealth of extra information." PatH