Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online

[BooksAdmin]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

 

The Book Thief -  March 1
Everyone is invited to join in!  

"Fortunately, this book isn't about Death; it's about death, and so much else."   "Some will argue that a book so difficult and sad may not be appropriate for teenage readers. "The Book Thief" was published for adults in Zusak's native Australia, and I strongly suspect it was written for adults. Many teenagers will find the story too slow to get going, which is a fair criticism. But it's the kind of book that can be life-changing, because without ever denying the essential amorality and randomness of the natural order, "The Book Thief" offers us a believable, hard-won hope. The Book Thief is a complicated story of survival that will encourage its readers to think." (Bookmarks Magazine) "How can a tale told by Death be mistaken for young-adult storytelling? Easily: because this book's narrator is sorry for what he has to do. The youthful sensibility of "The Book Thief" also contributes to a wider innocence. While it is set in Germany during World War II and is not immune to bloodshed, most of this story is figurative: it unfolds as symbolic or metaphorical abstraction. "The Book Thief" will be widely read and admired because it tells a story in which books become treasures. And because there's no arguing with a sentiment like that." (New York Times)

Discussion Schedule: March 1-2 ~ Prologue March 3-7 ~ Part I & II (the gravedigger's handbook; the shoulder shrug) March 8-14 ~ Part III & IV  (mein kamf; the standover man)              March 15-21 ~ Part V & VI (the whistler; the dream carrier)                 March 22-28 ~ Part VII & VIII (complete duden dictionary; the word shaker) March 29-April 4 ~ Part IX & X (the last human stranger; the book thief)

Some Questions for Your Consideration

March 3-7 ~ Part I & II  (the gravedigger's handbook; the shoulder shrug  )

1.  "One of them called the shots. The other did what he was told."  Death, observing the shivering gravediggers,  asks "What if the other is a lot more than one?"  What is he asking here?

2. Did you notice the mother had a return ticket?   "A final soaking farewell."  Do you see  Liesel's mother - and Rosa Hubermann, for that matter, as victims of circumstance?  Do you think "victim" describes Liesel?

3. Do you wonder why Hans and Rosa Hubermann ever married?   Opposites attract?   How did the author use metaphors to  describe Liesel's new foster parents?  

4. "Most Germans are very fond of pigs."  What does the author mean by this?    Did you notice that most of Rosa's foul words referred to  a sau, a pig?

5. " Do you think  all school children were conscripted into the BDM, Hitler's youth group?  Do you know if  they had a choice?

6. Can you name some of the defining moments for the children on Himmel St. when they realized a larger truth for the first time?
7. Can you think of one reason Hans decided to take Liesel to the bank of the Amper River  for her lessons?  Was it simply to get her away from Rosa?

8.  Why had Rudy Steiner insisted that Liesel take a turn reading before the class?  Were you prepared for her extreme reaction to her taunters?  What set her off?

9.  "Nazi Germany was built on anti-Semitism."   Do you agree with this, or was there more to it?  How do you understand Hans Hubermann's  politics? Was his not joining the party not a mistake?

10. How did  Liesel's adoration of Hitler turn to hatred?  Liesel steals her second book, The Shoulder Shrug - one of three books that  survived  the bonfire.  What is its significance?  Why do you think it was included in this bonfire?
   

Relevant Links ~ A Brief History of German Rule  <><>  The Book Thief Metaphors ~ Our Favorite Zusak expressions ~

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Andy

[JoanP]

What an unexpected pleasure!  I'm not sure I would have picked up The Book Thief, had it not been selected for discussion here.  It's not another book reliving the horrors of the war and its effects on the innocent, is it?  Or is it?  To tell the truth, I am so taken with Zusak's writing, that I am not at all focused on the terrible backdrop of the story.  Maybe this will change as we go on.

We promise to keep the discussion schedule current in the heading.  If you look now, you will see that we will begin discussing the Prologue these first few days.  If you've already read into Part I, please try not to comment until we all catch up with you.  You may, however, refer backwards to earlier chapters in your posts - at any time.

I am so eager to hear your comments on the Prologue as we become familiar with Zusak's writing style.  What do you think of keeping a growing list of your favorite examples of this?  I love the off-beat metaphors.  There are so many of them, I would like to keep  them in a separate place to review at another time.

Welcome to all of you!  We are looking forward to hearing from you soon and often.

[ALF43]

Oh I am so excited to get this discussion going.  I read this story in November and was just chomping at the bit to have someone to talk with about it.
 I am not exaggerating when I say that this book, I now consider my "all time favorite" and like the rest of the bibliophiles here you understand that that is a long stretch.   Right from the PROLOGUE- a mountain of rubble where the narrator introduces himself- the colors- and the book thief, to the very last word, I was enthralled and spellbound with this author's metaphors, similes and his commitment to the written word.
 
We begin always with OUR commitment to honor and respect each others thoughts and opinions as the discussion of this era can led to varied experiences, assessments and sentiments.  

I echo Joan's WELCOME to each of you.
Let us, together enter the world of Lisel Meminger.

[JudeS]

Today I started rereading "The Book Thief'.
The first time round I read for the story and loved the writing . This time I will attend to the rich language, offbeat metaphors
and the way Death describes it all.
Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this wonderful book with a group of like minded souls.

[ALF43]

Good morning, one and all.  Once again, we welcome you.
Yeah it is March 1st and we may finally start our discussion together.  
Our prologue begins:

 

a mountain range of rubble
in which our narrator introduces:
himself-the colors-and the book thief

I personally have focused on the colors throughout this entire story and marvel at the way our narrator's eye speaks to us of people, places and things "through colors."
It is brilliant. Quite honestly, I never took note of the fact that he opens our story with the  "First the colors" until I reread this book.  

What do you make of this mountain range of rubble that he sees?  Do you see him as a HE?
Do you see him as benevolent, caring and compassionate?
I have been so anxious to get other people's opinions and ideas on these thoughts  I am brimming over with questions.  JoanP will have to reign me in while discussing this story.  
LET US BEGIN!

[okietxjenjen]

This is my first time to participate in a book discussion.

I think what surprised me was the simplicity style of writing with such powerful meaning.  EXCELLENT BOOK.  

I did see him as a he.
I also thought of him with a protective outer shell around a true caring soul.

[ALF43]

oxietxjenjen- that is quite a handle there.  Shall we call you Jen?  Oxie?  Whatever you choose, we are most welcome to have you in here to discuss this story.
As a new participant let me just tell you a couple of things that may help you familiarize yourself with this board.
At the very top is the listing of what book we are discussing and a short synopsis.
Under that is the discussion schedule which we strictly adhere to as many folks are reading the story based on our schedule.  As you can see, March 1st and 2nd, we will be discussing the prologue only.
Next we have some questions to ponder and discuss, in relation to our schedule, which help to facilitate discussion.   

I think that you hit the nail right on the head when you said 

I think what surprised me was the simplicity style of writing with such powerful meaning.

I agree whole heartedly with you.  His writing is like music, it sways and moves with each instance.

[Frybabe]

I love the almost poetic writing. It is as if death was writing down thoughts as they popped into his head and these thoughts are arranged, for the most part, without changing the bits into a long prose narrative. Each little bit stands alone but contributes to the whole.

[Gumtree]

I can see everyone is going to wax lyrical over Zusak's writing style. And why not? I think it's brilliant. Simple language to convey complex meaning.

I first read this book about four years ago and reread the Prologue last night. Instantly it brought the whole story back to the front of my mind.

The dark, dark, chocolate coloured sky - I think this has to be symbolic - of what I don't know. But maybe there is something brooding and heavy about a dark, dark, chocolate colour - as if it's something not like a yummy chocolate but like that very dark umber  sometimes found in the darkest shadows of a painting. Perhaps it is meant to convey the idea of an imminent threat. 

As for whether the narrator, Death is he/she. I don't see this being as either male or female or even really as a being - it just is.

[kidsal]

"Your soul will be in my arms" is a comforting thought.  Feel a little sorry for Death as he sees all of the misery in the world.  I think of HIM.

[Ella Gibbons]

Well, here we are, the lst of March, still a cold day in Ohio

This is a strange book, very different don't you all agree?  As GUMTREE posted I don't understand what death has to do with chocolate.  I love chocolate, I dislike the very idea of death.  I am too familiar with it and I don't let myself dwell on it at all; at the same time I don't worry about it as we are asked by the narrator on the first page.   To be familiar with it is not to fear it.  I am not afraid.  I know I will be lying there, caked in my own body someday.

I think we are being asked questions here of ourselves?

WELCOME, JEN to your first book discussion on SeniorLearn. 

The author is also telling us:  "I saw the book thief three times." 

Is this a hint that the narrator/death just has three stories to tell? 

[serenesheila]

I agree with you, Gum.  Also with you, Kidsal.  I find the thought of someone holding my soul in their arms very comforting.

I have read the prologue.  To me, it is a bit depressing.  I am hoping that the remainder of this book is more uplifting, for me.

Sheila

[serenesheila]

P.S.  I do not consider the narrator male, or female.  So far, I am wondering if the narrator IS death.

Sheila

[JudeS]

I have seen a dark brown sky but never connected it to chocolate.I wanted to share it with you.I wrote Dark Brown Sky into Google and at # 4 a wonderful chocolaty image came up.  If I knew how to transfer the link or the picture I would do so.
If anyone knows how to do the transfer I would appreciate a computer lesson.
Or just go to Google and put in Dark Brown Sky.

[kidsal]

Not sure if it was discussed prior to this but in an interview with Markus Zusak he said "having Death narrate the story made sense because who is constantly hanging around in times of war?  During war Death is worked to the point of exhaustian. He first thought to make Death sinister but he then decided Death might be afraid of us.  What if he tells this story as a way of proving to himself that humans are actually  worthwhile?  He needs solace, he needs colors.  He needs proof that humans are worth their existence."

[salan]

First, the colors that death uses to describe his 3 meetings with "The Book Thief"---black, white, red.  Is this perhaps symbolic of the colors on the Nazi flag, or am I "reaching"?  I love the simple language in this book and the creative use of metaphors.
I did not think of the narrator as either male or female---he/she/it just was.
What did you think when the narrator said he used colors as a distraction--not a distraction from death, but from the left over survivors?  "now and then, I witness the ones who are left behind, crumbling among the jigsaw puzzle of realization, despair and surprise.  They have puntured hearts.  They have beaten lungs."  Wow, that paragraph took my breath away!

I read this book in May of 2009 and am getting even more out of it this go round.
Sally

[JoanP]

Well look - a newcomer to our group and to SeniorLearn!  So happy to welcome you, "Jen" - (it's Jen or "Okie" - your choice. Which do you prefer? )  
And kidsal   You've been missed!  Welcome to both of you!

Really great posts  in here today - it's that kind of book, isn't it?
Gum, I think it's really difficult NOT to  "wax lyrical"  over Zusak's writing style, ?  It's intentional isn't it?  To distract from the awful and harsh reality of this time in Germany. Sometimes I feel like examining the parts closely to see how the author has achieved the impressions, the mood - but there are times when I think it would be better to just read on, without stopping and let the mood take over.  What do you do?  Do you stop to consider the symbolism behind the colors,  the "offbeat metaphors and   the rich language" as Jude plans to do?

The style is quite simple as  Jen mentions ...Zusak adored Hemingway, you can see his influence in the short sentences,  his economy of words
Like Jen, I was surprised the the simplicity of style could evoke such powerful meaning.  I'm happy we are examining this style   in the Prologue. After that we can decide how closely we want to examine style over  content.

Shall we keep a list of the "off-beat" or powerful metaphors and images that impressed you?  Will you include them in your posts - maybe at the end of your posts?  That would be easier to gather each day.  Were there any in the Prologue you would like to include on this list?

[JoanP]

Zusak has personalized Death to the point that he/she is a sympathetic character in the role of the narrator.  Thanks for the information from that interview, Kidsal.   The author says he made Death the narrator because death is always present in wartime - working to the point of exhaustion."  Not sinister, but  a sensitive person in need of solace - and distraction, moved by what he must contend with every day.  I sense this person is a male too - not sure why.  Sheila finds " the thought of someone holding my soul in their arms very comforting.'   Me too.  When I was seven, my mother died.  I consoled myself with the belief that she would be waiting for me on the other side. Zusak's portrayal of Death is not at all threatening. Sheila, can you explain further what you find depressing?
 
Ella, your acceptance of death as normal, as inevitable and nothing to be dwelt on - reminds me of what Zusak wrote - "Here is a small fact: you are going to die."  Hmmm - is this a small fact to the rest of you?
Why do you think Death would find the little book thief a person of interest?  Ella asks about the three times
Death notices her.    What did that mean to you?  What is it about the girl that gets his attention in the Prologue?

Sally - isn't that so true - Death is harder the survivors, isn't it. Zusak's description of the ones left behind -  "crumbling among the jigsaw puzzle of realization, despair and surprise.  With punctured hearts.  Beaten lungs."  As you say, "wow."

[JoanP]

Colors -

We're going to be talking a lot about the importance the author puts on color  as Andy saysfrom the beginning to the end. - Today you helped with two of them - both seem to be referring to the sky...

1. ...the dark,dark chocolate sky...
Gum sees it "brooding and heavy."  And then Jude actually found a photo of a chocolate-colored sky.  (Jude, stay tuned for directions on posting photos and links tomorrow morning, okay?)
 

Here is the site where this photo came from, but I don't think it explains how the sky came to be this color -

Chocolate colored sky

2.  the three colors   that  describe the sky at Death's three meetings with the book thief - black, white, red -

Sally asks  if the colors of the sky described on Death's  three meetings with the book thief are  symbolic of the colors on the Nazi flag - Here's the flag - what do you think?

The flag of Germany has not always used black, red and gold as its colors. After the Austro–Prussian War in 1866, the Prussian-dominated North German Confederation adopted a tricolor of black-white-red as its flag. This flag later became the flag of the German Empire, formed following the unification of Germany in 1871, and was used until 1918. Black, white and red were reintroduced as the German national colors with the establishment of Nazi Germany in 1933.

[serenesheila]

I found the prologue rather dark.  Perhaps it would be wise for me to reread it.  I am not sure why, but talking about colors so much, especially dark chocolate, seemed dark, to me.

Sheila

[JoanP]

Was just about to turn off my computer for tonight when I spotted your post, Sheila.  How about this...when you reread the "chocolate"  chapter, notice that the title of this chapter is DEATH AND CHOCOLATE. There's a paragraph in this chapter that talks of the chocolate sky in terms of a "flavor" - rather than a color...I'm not sure if this is significant - but clearly Zusak is trying to tell us something about chocolate here or he wouldn't have put it in the title.

Sweet dreams...

[Laura]

I do think the narrator is a he, a youthful man trying not to be made old by his work, despite the fact that he has been doing this work for a long time.  He uses colors as a distraction from his work. 

He made a mistake in watching the girl, the book thief.  I think the colors red, white, and black mentioned on page 14 refer to the black and white pages of the book with the red of blood over them.

While I enjoyed reading the prologue, with its unique style and use of color imagery, I don’t think I could handle reading a whole book in this style.

[okietxjenjen]

Thank you for the welcome.  You can call me jen or okie or jenny.    

[Babi]

 Good morning.  I thought I would drop by and read the posts. I read
"The Book Thief" last year and found it impressive, if sometimes very
unsettling.  I didn't feel I wanted to read it again...at least not now...but
I will be interested to see what you all have to say about it.

  I like your take on Death, KIDSAL, that he is telling this story
because it helps him feel humans are worthwhile.  And my thought
about the 'color' of the souls he carries away is that it reflected the
kind of person they were.  Dark souls or light, clear colors or muddy?

[Ella Gibbons]

Good morning to you BABI and to others.  JOANP:  I took a look at the link in the heading of the history of Germany.  A rather young country isn't it but now - "Europe's largest economy and second most populous nation."  Amazing history!

"It's the leftover humans." 

Death doesn't like those and our book thief is one.  I don't know what to think of this narration.

[ALF43]

Good Morning!
I love all of these posts and am over whelmed with each different viewpoint offered.
In regards to the "chocolate" sky it brought to mind the seeds of the cacao tree- that in itself is offensively bitter and must be fermented to develop the flavor.    
Is the author saying that death is bitter/sweet?
When I look at the picture Joan posted I see a LIGHT, perhaps a welcoming light from above.

Babi- please stay with us.  Your insights are always "right on."  Perhaps with the 2nd reading you will be able to enjoy the story in a different way.

Laura- funny, but I saw the "Grim Reaper" as a young man, as well, enjoying a billion or so flavors, none of them quite the same.  He says "It helped him relax."  what do you make of that?
Sally says

The Book Thief"---black, white, red.  Is this perhaps symbolic of the colors on the Nazi flag, or am I "reaching"?  

Absolutely not, I think that is intentional.  He begins with "white" right at the beginning of this story.
White denotes  reverence, purity, simplicity, and innocence. So much contrast here in the beginning with the blinding white snow.  The guards with their RED faces against this sterile back ground.

[ALF43]

In the prologue again he mentions RED, when he next sees the Book Thief."
Red- "Home cooked red"- the color of blood, as he describes the bombing of a German town.   He says:
"I hang suspended, until a septic truth bleeds toward clarity."  That's when I see them formulate (the colors):
Red: White: Black"

That, my friends is brilliant writing.

[ALF43]

I did not find this dark at all Ella.  Perhaps it's because I've seen so much of death and dying in my profession or perhaps it's because of my spiritual beliefs, but like Joan, I feel that when my imminent death arrives there will be many who have gone before to reach down and "lift me up."  I would honor the likes of this grim reaper to take me in his arms and care for me as I am removed from this earth.

[okietxjenjen]

I found the book heavy, sorrowful and excellent.    I found humor in, "Who could step in while I take a break in your stock-standard resort-style vacation destination, whether it be tropical or of the ski trip variety"

  Does this equate to tourist traps?  

[JudeS]

Why does the girl interest the narrator?
I think he answers that at the end of Death and Chocolate.
"It is the story of one of those perpetual survivors-an expert at being left behind".
In other words Death does not carry her away.  She manages to escape his embrace although all the odds are against it.
She seems so likely to follow the fate of millions but she tiptoes between the raindrops of death.  This interests Death as it does us.  How does she manage this feat?
Like Ulysses or King David or so many other heroes we want to know her secret.  We follow her story since it may give us a hint of how  a child lives heroically while all around her people are dieing.She seems a most unlikely heroine.. Even Red Riding Hood had more immediate presence than she.And yet she survives.

[JoanP]

Babi - really glad to have you with us  - your comment on the sky colors on the day you are carried away might very well reflect the kind of person you were.  This might  explain what Death means when he says ""Your soul will be in my arms - a color will be perched on my shoulder."  
  He asks, what color will the sky be on the day you are carried away?

I can see where you'd find this kind of talk "unsettling." "Heavy"  Jenny writes that it is heavy sorrowful...but finds humor in it at the same time. (Aren't we thankful for the humor?) Death needs a vacation, but he has not substitute to stand in while he heads off to a resort.  So, to distract himself from his gruesome task, the black skies of death, he takes a chocolate break now and then-  This works for me. Laura, I think this does sound like a young man's approach to a tedious job.  

Ella, I'm not sure Death actually dislikes the survivors.  He usually tries to avoid them, their grief.  But we're told he makes a mistake by watching the little book thief.  
 A grief-stricken little girl out in the snow with her mother and little brother's body. .  Andy mentions the red faces of the guards in the snow. What kind of a train was this?   Guards?  On a train?  Strangely cold and pityless aren't they?

Jude, I like the way you have cast Liesal Memnger as a heroine - "an expert at being left behind."     Are survivors stronger? smarter, or just luckier than those who don't make it?
I can see where Death would be curious about this phenomenon.
  

[JoanP]

Let's begin the discussion of Parts I and II today.  Please don't feel at all confined to the questions in the heading.  We really want to hear your impressions and observations, after all. We are still interested to hear from you on the Prologue.  There was so much packed into those opening pages! Clearly there is more to discuss in the Prologue.

Laura, I agree with you - it would be exhausting to read a whole book in symbols through the eyes of Death.  Though Death is the narrator of the Prologue, it was just the Prologue to the story.

Let's continue watch for the author's stunning off-beat metaphors though - and keep a list of those you have noticed as we proceed. Especially colors.  Zusak seems to use metaphors to describe his characters, mood and atmosphere.  This would account for the economy of words we have been noticing..

[Laura]

ALF asked,  Laura- funny, but I saw the "Grim Reaper" as a young man, as well, enjoying a billion or so flavors, none of them quite the same.  He says "It helped him relax."  What do you make of that?

With the stressful and sorrowful job that Death has, he has to find some distraction and joy in his life in order to be able to continue to function.  Otherwise I think he would be overcome with sorrow and hopelessness.

[Babi]

 JUDE, don't you think the heroic types make really large targets? It
seems reasonable that the quiet, unobtrusive, unnoticed souls are the
most likely to slip through the cracks and survive.

 JOANP, it seems likely the train was one of those the Nazis used to
shift people around where they pleased. Were the concentration camps up
and running at this point, I wonder? 

[Laura]

I noted this metaphor, the last paragraph of Part One:

Trust me, though, the words were on their way, and when they arrived, Liesel would hold them in her hands like the clouds, and she would wring them out like the rain.

I thought it was beautiful.

[Ella Gibbons]

What good questions, JOAN, they make me think harder.  And I did want to tell you that the sky picture was beautiful in a very ANGRY way. 

The first question - the quote - I think portrays the country of Germany perhaps.  ONE (the Fuhrer) called the shots, the other (everyone else, the public) did what they were told.  THE OTHER IS A LOT MORE THAN ONE. 

Wouldn't it be hard to be a German and read this book?

The mother is sleeping while her boy is coughing intensely and dies there on the train?  Who does the shaking?

Our survivor is a very hardy little girl.

[Ella Gibbons]

BABI, I pencilled in a note after this sentence:  "The day was gray, the color of Europe."  My pencilled note says WHAT YEAR?

I can't find a year in these pages.

Didn't you think Rosa's face - "creased-up cardboard" - was so descriptive.  I know that face.

[CallieOK]

   Marking my place so I can follow the discussion.

I just began reading "The Book Thief" yesterday - at the doctor's office of all places!  I'm not quite as enthralled with the writing style as most of you seem to be - but I "got into it" and had no trouble following the story.

Two comments off-topic:
Leisl's last name is just one letter different from my maiden name!  I have some letters written to my Dad just after WWI from a branch of the family still in Germany - but the ancestors arrived in the USA even before the Civil War.
Editing:  Perhaps I should mention that my family were not and are not Jewish.  German original immigrants were Lutheran.  Don't know if that means anything re: the plot development...but one never knows.

Okietexjenjen:  Nice to see someone from "my neck of the woods".    I am a Texan only by marriage.  On which side of the Red RIver do you live?

Looking forward to the continuing discussion.

[countrymm]

I'm reading the book on my Kindle, so it's difficult to know which chapter I am reading. Is anyone else reading this on a Kindle? If so, are you having the same problem?

 I believe our little heroine IS Lutheran.

[JoanP]

Callie, so happy you are joining us.  And countrymm too!  Welcome  to both of you!

Callie's observation that German immigrants were originally  Lutheran that Liesel's family was also Lutheran - and countrymm's note  that Liesel comes from a Lutheran family reminds me of the reason  she had a difficult time adjusting to the Catholic nuns in her new school.  Does anyone recall if the Hubermann's were Catholic too?  Was that the reason Liesel attended a Catholic school?

Eager to hear what you think of the author's style, Callie.  Especially his decision to use Death as the narrator. Have you ever read a book shown through the eyes of the Grim Reaper?  Laura has described his job as "stressful and sorrowful."  Kidsal suggests that the reason Death is interested in Liesel is because he needs to know that there are worthwhile humans.  I really like that idea.  Is this the reason he lets her "survive"?  
Babi, I'll agree that heroic types make big targets and that  "quiet, unobtrusive, unnoticed souls are the
most likely to slip through the cracks and survive."  BUT don't you see Liesel becoming less unobtrusive and unnoticed as the story goes on - I'm thinking of her feistiness in the soccer game on Himmel St. - oh, and the big fight with her taunters at her school.  I hope this doesn't damage her changes of survival.
But why would she be in danger?  She's German, not Jewish,  and a member of Hitler's Youth group too.

ps ~ Kindle users, would it help if the titles of each part were included in the Discussion schedule?  Part I "the gravedigger's handbook; Part II  the shoulder shrug

Will that work or do you also need the name of Part III mein kamf

Let me put that in the schedule and see if that helps you because I know we have several Kindlers in our group.
Did it - will you look at the discussion schedule and see if that works with your Kindles?