Author Topic: Talking Heads ~ Expectations for retirement living with author Bruce Frankel  (Read 51532 times)

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
Talking Heads #10
A  forum for opinions on anything in print: magazines, newspaper articles, online: bring your ideas and let's discuss.

"Choices – For the Rest of Your Life?"

We are fortunate to have Bruce Frankel as our guest  in this month's Talking Heads discussion.  Bruce is  the author of  "What Should I Do With the Rest of My Life?" in which he presents us with more than a dozen profiles of individuals he calls "ordinary people who embraced new possibilities late in life - extraordinary late bloomers who have overthrown the usual expectations of age."
Profiled in the book is one of SeniorLearn's  own Discussion Leaders,  Robby Iadeluca, a practicing clinical psychologist, who still conducts a full schedule of therapy sessions, five days a week at the age of 90! A Review of  Bruce's book; Amazon link

Our questions for Bruce as we consider these profiles:
- Are these ordinary people like you and me...or do they possess extraordinary talent, wealth or physical fitness?
- What inspiration can we take from his research today
?
Thanks for joining us, Bruce!  We're looking forward to hearing your words of acquired wisdom!

*******************************************************************************
On the other side of the issue, ..."Gerontologists tend to think of successful aging as taking advantage of what potential there is, staying as socially and intellectually engaged as possible. Our culture tends to measure it more in terms of how active people are."
"Part of the pressure on older people to be successful and give back and volunteer and be active and play tennis is that we are a culture of doing. We don't really know how to be. That's something that late life gives us, is time to be. But that's stigmatized." "Turn 70.Act Your Grandchild’s Age"  Kate Zernike, NY Times
 
1. Are goals and expectations necessary for our “second life?”
2. What is ageism?  Outside of public policy decisions (i.e. Social Security, medicare, etc.) should age be a consideration?
3.  Whose Second Lives do you celebrate?
4. Do you or did you look forward to life after 65?
5. Did you have any specials plans.


 Your opinion?  Let's discuss!



Posted by Steph:

Bruce, the reason for Law and Order is partly that last November, my husband and I were in an auto accident. A man ran a stop sign and hit us.. My husband was killed and I was injured.. I had several surgeries, but am now doing just fine. The man on the other hand has not been punished at all.. The little local police did not test for blood alcohol or cell phone usage.. They did not measure the skids to see how fast he was going. Three witnesses said he was going fast and weaving. Who knows. He was supposed to at least get his license taken away for 12 months, but when the day came and my sons and I were there for victim impact statements, he had hired an attorney and was pleading Not Guilty.  At the rate this is going, the first anniversary of the accident will occur before anything happens to him. I thought taking the course might help me to understand the what and whys of justice.
Balance interests me.. the physical type. I walk every day about 40 minutes, go to the gym three days a week, do yoga and still my balance is not what I would like it to be. Very annoying.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

ursamajor

  • Posts: 305
When Bruce mentioned "disengagement" he put his finger on the problem some of us have.  How can we get past "I don't feel like it" to engagement?  Several years ago I bought painrs and supplies and found myself unable to pick up a brush.  Years ago in a college painting class the professor was critical of every piece of work I produced.  I would like to be able to get past "What's the point? .... of paint ing or anything else."

brucefrankel

  • Posts: 37

Often, these days, people -- particularly women, I should say; men are generally not as revealing (duh!) -- tell me that they know they need to do something different with their lives, bu they don't know how to find out what that something is? They ask me how one discovers it.

I usually tell them that, unlike in the movie "Jerry McGuire," it's not 'follow the money.' It's, 'follow your curiousity.'

But since so many of you  have found ways to pursue what you love and to blaze new paths in mid-life and beyond, I'd love to hear your advice for other seeking that as-yet-undiscovered spark in themselves that brought enough kindling could burn a lifetime. What would you say?


brucefrankel

  • Posts: 37
Stephanie - I am profoundly sorry. Words are so inadequate in the face of such tragedy. Please accept my heartfelt sympathies.

And it seems enormously brave and smart of you to take the course. Sometimes we forget that learning is doing. It seems to be an important and self-affirming thing to take on a course on criminal justice when you are facing something as frustrating and painful as you are. You have certainly earned by complete respect. That you are a functioning human being at the moment seems like a remarkable achievement.

I hope you will keep me posted.

Beyond imagining the pain of your loss, as a reporter of  for so much of my career -- and one who has covered a lot of crime, I am left wanting to ask you a lot of questions having nothing to do with the topic. Is there no newspaper??? No press at all that has reported on these things and brought pressure for some serious attention? I don't know where you live, but feel free to contact me at my email address if I can be of any help.

Are the issues with balance related to physical injuries sustained in the accident?

Was there any kind of neurological trauma?

I'm really happy to hear you say you go to yoga. It's no doubt one of the best things you could possibly do for yourself, for so many reasons, including balance. I'm one of those people in yoga class that is always struggling with my balance in tree pose. And, if it's any consolation, I find it annoying, too. So, I practice a lot.  When I'm waiting for the elevator, for instance, I often stand on one foot. The good news is that balance is generally (omitting certain medical conditions) something we can improve and learn. And because of the brain's plasticity, balance also appears to be one of those things that the brain will quickly reorganize itself to aid, if necessary. But the brain doesn't do any reorganization for us unless we ask it enough through regular and consistent practice.

I'd love to hear more. And again, I can think of nothing that will be a greater accomplishment that to heal from such a horrifying ordeal.
With admiration, Bruce

Eloise

  • Posts: 247
  • Montreal
I am so sorry Steph for the terrible loss you have suffered. I remember seeing your husband when he dropped you off at the Isle of Palms reunion, so young too. You are a strong woman.

Bruce,

Finding something challenging and interesting to do after the kids are all grown up doesn’t come to us on a silver platter, you have to DO something to find it.

Having had a stressful childhood, always moving from one place to another, I found that breaking away from one’s comfort zone is the challenge one needs to keep alert and that means taking risks.

In my 60s I travelled in Europe almost every year without reservations and very little money. It was so interesting but not always easy.

Taking courses for credits and graduating at 64 was risky.

Hosting an international reunion (we called it a Bash) in 2006 in Montreal for 41 seniors was a huge risk and I almost collapsed from fatigue. It took me two years of preparation.

I participated in a 2 year research at UQAM  (University of Quebec in Montreal)  about Technology and Seniors in 2007/8,  you will see my name is at the bottom of the page.

 http://www.intertic.uqam.ca/colloque/comite_org.asp

Unfortunately it’s all in French. 25 odd seniors participated for this 2 yrs  research. Since then the government has allowed funds to buy new computers for Seniors Centers.

Like Jean said, it’s not necessarily what high profile seniors do that we all want to do. I love to cook for my large family, I sew and knit. I baby sat and helped my grandchildren with their studies. I live on the floor above one of my daughter’s family, so we spend a huge amount of time together. BUT sometimes it’s too comfortable and I need a new challenge away from here. What, for instance? It will certainly be something risky, because that’s where I will find the most satisfaction, where I feel I have accomplished something worthwhile.




Gumtree

  • Posts: 2741
Ursamajor That college professor should be drummed out of town. I too, had a similar experience and during my childhood and youth I was repeatedly told I couldn't draw or paint.. After I retired in 1989 I joined an art class for what I hoped would be fun - it was -Amazingly, I found I could do it and not only that but that I had a wealth of creative energy that I had never used. I quickly began to take my art seriously and found that people liked what I did to the extent that my work sold every time I put some in an exhibition. I now have a solid and growing client base with regular sales, I receive commissions to paint particular subjects and invitations to exhibit my work, to demonstrate and to teach. It wasn't easy but I worked hard and still do and I had fun all the way.

So, forget that professor - get those paints out and start sloshing it on some canvas -given time and some practice the results will astound you. The big thing to remember is that you don't have to satisfy anyone - just enjoy! 
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

CallieOK

  • Posts: 1122
Random thoughts while reading and thinking about the posts:

There’s a “Social Comment” section on the bulletin board over my desk.  One item is an old Wee Pals cartoon in which the character says, “I don’t mind facing reality once in a while. But when it’s every day, it gets to be a pain.”  Amen and amen!

I recently read “The Third Chapter” by Sara Lawrence-Lightfoot.  By her definition, this  “chapter of life” occurs between ages 55 and 75
One of the ladies she interviewed had begun going to casinos after retiring from a long career in the service of others.  When her activist friends chided her about not continuing her efforts with volunteer work, she said, “I am enjoying the privilege of wasting time.”   Amen and amen!!

I will have completed this “third chapter” in a few more months.  A few weeks ago, I was lamenting (well…ok…complaining…) to my doctor about physical challenges that have begun to severely limit or force me to give up quite a few activities and interests..
He said gerontologists see three stages of Aging:  Young-Old, Old, and Old-Old, a/k/a “Go-Go”, “Slo-Go” and  “No-Go”.   There are no certain years attached to any of the stages; one transitions from one to the other like teens progress through puberty - at different ages and in different ways.

Among my friends who are, as I am, making the transition from “Go“ to “Slo“, the most discontent are the ones who defy limitations, refuse to adjust and are a pain to be with because they are constantly complaining  that “things just aren‘t like they used to be” or trying to make them be so.
The most content are the ones who have a sense of curiosity.  They adjust to limitations,remain interested in a wide variety of areas and are, therefore, a pleasure to be around.
I plan to be in this group - there are simply too many fascinating activities to explore and attempt that don't demand a lot of walking and/or standing.


Hi to Robby and Eloise.  I remember with pleasure SeniorNet Bashes - waltzing with Robby in Tucson and a delightful time with Eloise in Montreal.
 



JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
" By her definition, this  “chapter of life” occurs between ages 55 and 75"

I'm going-on-77, but I'm not in the no-go stage yet! Although I've been in a wheelchair for a number of years, I go somewhere mentally every day through reading and my internet friends, and go somewhere physically often through the help of friends and family who take me with them.

But I know I'm a piker compared to some of you.

CallieOK

  • Posts: 1122
Joan, the author of "Third Chapter" had absolutely nothing to say about the "over 75's".  This book is aimed at retiring Baby Boomers.
It was my doctor who mentioned the " - Go" stages but he emphasized that there are no specific ages to which any of them refer. 

It sounds to me as if you are interested and, therefore, interesting.  Good for you!

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
What an amazing conversation! I don't see how any of us will come away without a better understanding of one another - or of ourselves!

 Pedln found a New York Times article by KATE ZERNIKE - the whole thing is  in the heading -  that states -

Quote
"The risk, gerontologists say, is that in celebrating the remarkable stories, we make those not playing Radio City, and certainly those suffering the diseases that often accompany old age, feel INADEQUATE."

Some of you have admitted that you feel this way, that you are not part of the corps who feel they "successfully aging."

Bruce has turned the tables this morning when he asked for  advice for those seeking "that as-yet-undiscovered spark."

"Since so many of you  have found ways to pursue what you love and to blaze new paths in mid-life and beyond, I'd love to hear  What would you say?"

I'm loving your responses - simply amazing, and I have to use the word, "inspiring." They are sure to help those of us who are still "seeking the spark to light the flame."    Gum, I think you'll turn up in Bruce's next book!  Your story and that of Bruce's mother are so similar.  I think Anita would feel right at home here, Bruce, don't you?

I'm keeping a list of your words of wisdom -

 *Follow your curiousity - from Bruce
 *Finding something challenging and interesting doesn't come to us on a silver platter, you have to DO something to find it. Eloise
 *The big thing to remember is that you don't have to satisfy anyone - just enjoy!  Gumtree
 *Have a sense of curiosity.  Adjust to limitations,remain interested in a wide variety of areas.  CallieOK
 *Go somewhere mentally every day and go somewhere physically often through the help of friends and family.  JoanK

I'm going back through the profiles in the book, Bruce - to see if any of these people needed help, needed a prod in the right direction, or did they just KNOW  what it was that they wanted to do when and if they had the opportunity.  I don't know why that AARP commercial on TV bothers me, but it does.  The one where each person tells what they are going to do when they "grow up"?  Build houses, become a teacher...etc.  Maybe it bothers me because they just seem to KNOW what it is they want to do when they retire.  I didn't know.  I still don't know.  But I'm going to follow the suggestions from those who have found fulfillment.  Thanks everyone!  Thank you, Bruce!

 I have to say this before signing off - Steph is probably the greatest inspiration - providing us with an example of how one goes on, even when facing the daily reminder of the trauma she experienced.  She's showing us all how to live, even when faced with the unspeakable.

ursamajor

  • Posts: 305
When one reaches the unmentionable "Fourth Chapter" there is a very noticeable lack of physical energy to follow up on any bright ideas one may have.  This a a great impediment to many activities and most travel.  We have books and computers, which are a great blessing.

Frybabe

  • Posts: 9947
I'm with you, JoanP, regarding the AARP commercial. I never know what I want to be/do when I grow up.

With the help of grants and aid for Aging Workers and Displaced Workers (aka laid-off), I have enrolled at my local college. My goal is to get a Certificate in Accounting. I chose that course because bookkeeping is what I started out in, and liked, before I got side-tracked with other things. It also gives me a class in Tax Accounting that the Professional Bookkeeper Certificate doesn't. Hopefully, I have made a good choice. (My Dad always used to say I should be a Bookie since I liked horses and bookkeeping so much  ;D ).

Still, it is a shock and a big bummer to know that the economy, technology changes in printing, and getting laid-off are putting my retirement dreams on indefinite hold.


brucefrankel

  • Posts: 37
Hmm.. It seems as if an entry I wrote last night didn't post. I'm not sure why. It seemed to. But maybe the system timed out or I accidentally went offline without noticing. Drats!

I won't be able to take time to post again until this evening, but promise to do so then. Sorry. Bruce

pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri
Hey Bruce.  You are not alone.  The disappearing post happens to all of us.  After it happens often enough one writes posts in WORD or Notepad and then copies and pastes.  We are all so grateful to your being here and taking so much time to talk with us.

pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri
Quote
One of the ladies she interviewed had begun going to casinos after retiring from a long career in the service of others.  When her activist friends chided her about not continuing her efforts with volunteer work, she said, “I am enjoying the privilege of wasting time.”   Amen and amen!!

Callie, the comments above remind me of some of the comments currently being posted in The Library – a reminder that there are often people who think they know best what others should read or how they should spend their time.  I’d like to read The Third Chapter, especially the Go-Slow section, and am reminded that  years ago on SeniorNet we read Carolyn Heilbrun’s (Amanda Cross) The Last Gift of Time: Life Beyond 60.  It may now be a bit outdated, as I recall a chapter about wearing pants – who doesn’t? -- and another about learning email.   :P    What I mostly remember is the anger and frustration in our group when we learned about Heilbrun’s suicide at age 77, something she had always threatened to do.
   
Frybabe, it looks like you haven’t lost your sense of humor, even though your retirement dreams have been put on hold.  Good luck with the accounting and tax classes.  The one thing I knew I really wanted to do when I  retired from being a school librarian was to take the H&R Block Tax course, just because I liked doing my own taxes and wanted to know more. I did end up working for them for one tax season – didn’t like it, but did enjoy being an AARP tax volunteer  for five years.

Ursamajor talks about the unmentionable Fourth Chapter when disabilities prevent us from doing what we want to do.  Yes, they can and they do, but she also speaks positively about alternatives such as books and computers.  I think we make adjustments and/or substitutions all the time as we move from stage to stage, be they walkers or wheelchairs, flat shoes or talking computers.  I can’t imagine life without captions, on phone and TV. (AARP didn’t caption their commercial, so that’s probably why it didn’t bother me – I didn’t hear that bit about “grown ups.”)

JoanP, I’m going to paraphrase (i.e. shorten) you list above – it’s great
Be curious
Do something
Enjoy
Adjust
Go

Eloise

  • Posts: 247
  • Montreal
Ah! Pedln, one more thing that is always in the back of my mind, take chances, small ones or big ones, while being sure someone else will NOT have to pick up the pieces if they don't work. If you don't try, surely you wont succeed.

Right now I am fighting the inclination to just loaf. I have reduced my travel and activities over the past 5 years. I am looking at a different kind of challenge, like singing in a choir  with my tiny voice and hardly any musical skills, but I love to listen to choir  music.

Frybabe, I love your dad's sense of humor.

JoanR

  • Posts: 1093
Eloise - I have a wonderful photo of your smiling , happy face as you sang into the microphone at our Montreal bash.  Tiny voice? Nonsense - you were great and I'm sure still are.  So join the choir!!

CallieOK

  • Posts: 1122
Please let me emphasize that the book "The Third Chapter" does not contain anything about the "Go-Go, Slo-Go, No-Go". 
That comment was made to me by my doctor and I have no idea where he came up with it.

JoanR,  I have a picture of Eloise singing at the Bash in Calgary.  She was the "Hostess With The Mostest" for the Bash in Montreal.

Dana

  • ::
  • Posts: 5171
I have had a feeling for the last few years perhaps summed up by the dying words of Cecil Rhodes, "so little time, so much to do".....

I think the new things I have taken up are all related to the thought that this is getting to be my last chance to learn about stuff before the lights go out.....so I'm doing stuff I would hate to have died and missed out on!  in my case these things happen to be all to do with learning, I've done my travel and it wasn't as wonderful as I thought it would be, and I'm not athletic or artistic or altruistic.

So in answer to the question about how to decide what to do if nothing immediately appeals, I suggest the above !!



brucefrankel

  • Posts: 37
 Hi! 

Well, Dana, having a sense of urgency certainly isn't the worst incentive, particularly if it pushes you to leap toward learning. I would suggest, though, that having a sense that what you do matters, helps. And that sometimes, we're not conscious of how our efforts to learn or do help others, so it takes a certain attitude of faith that they do. But just take this discussion.  While each of us may have our own personal, even narcissistic reasons for things we say, each contribution becomes part of a creative communal project which may have ripples into the world well beyond anything we can know. I think adopting a mindful attitude that sees our efforts, whatever they are, as being important to the world, no matter how unseen they may appear, has a potent effect. Just opening the door to the possibility that whatever we do matters changes the act of doing it.

Eloise, you keep making me smile.  As Jean said, there is a strong resemblance to the story of my mother's return to painting. I loved this: I love to cook for my large family, I sew and knit. I baby sat and helped my grandchildren with their studies … I need a new challenge away from here. What, for instance? It will certainly be something risky, because that’s where I will find the most satisfaction, where I feel I have accomplished something worthwhile.

First, it reminded me of the way things were in Brooklyn for my mother’s family until later in my boyhood. On each floor of their house, there was a different generation or relation. The house and family were one. And perhaps when my mother visits the conversation – hopefully soon --  she can talk a little about how that arrangement in childhood had long-lasting effects.

What I thought about most, though, was Gregory Berns’s book Satisfaction. In it, he looks at the science of how and why the brain is satisfied. I’ll bypass the fascinating neuroscience of the book – how satisfaction can be seen at a deep level of the brain, known as the striatum, where information and individual meet, and how that triggers the release of dopamine. The important thing is that he shows how risk and novelty are at the heart of satisfaction and without them satisfaction ceases to exist. Reading Satisfaction made me intensely aware of why – the biological reason – it is important to leave our comfort zone in learning. There are other reasons, too. Studies have shown that if you want to cause cognitive growth, one of the best things you can do is challenge yourself with other, differing, unfamiliar viewpoints. Of course, this is just the opposite of the habits of comfort we naturally also desire. .... more later...

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
Oh Pedlin, I too spent five years as a tax volunteer for AARP and would still be doing it, but we moved to a new area and the training and settings are 45 minutes away.. May give it a go this year though.
I love learning... and taking in person type classes.. I still do a lot of genealogical research, but am cautious now about helping others on line. Just kept finding too much of my very hard work being passed off as someone elses..
I love travel and when MDH was alive, we had an RV and had such a blast exploring all of the highways and byways of this glorious country.. Then we would fly off to Europe, climb on a river boat and take in the scenery and he could enjoy the unpack once syndrome.. I will figure a way to travel again.. But  I sold the RV.. No way I was going to drive a 40' footer.. But I know I will figure out another plan..
Stephanie and assorted corgi

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
" Studies have shown that if you want to cause cognitive growth, one of the best things you can do is challenge yourself with other, differing, unfamiliar viewpoints. Of course, this is just the opposite of the habits of comfort we naturally also desire."

Thank you, BRUCE, for that comment.  A good one.  We try to do that in our book discussions.

brucefrankel

  • Posts: 37
 Ella, I can see from this discussion how valuable book conversation about work that was contrary to members' zeitgeist could become very interesting, provocative, and beneficial. We often speak of it as "stretching ourselves," bit it's interesting to hold the image of something outside us stretching us or our little crenelated brains.

Here's a question for you:  What do you think it is in your experience that causes you to become connected enough to an activity, a project, a group, an idea, or whatever, that makes you feel a passionate need to see it develop?


ANNIE

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 2977
  • Downtown Gahanna
    • SeniorLearn
I just received in the mail an offer for some in-person learning at one of our retirement centers.   There is one class on the brain and its learning capacities as we age. Each of these classes is offered in four 2hour increments and are taught by professors from the local colleges.  Sounds quite interesting to me but there also one on the history of Broadway shows and I think that's what I will sign up for.

Bruce,
Can't wait to hear from your mother.  She does deserve to be in any of your books.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
BRUCE - offhand I would say it is a passion for learning that connects us to books and discussion of them.  The opinions of others, ideas!  Ideas to occupy our mind as we go about the daily tasks of life.  New ideas.  It's a mental thing, rather than physical and good for all of us and, particularly for those among us who cannot get out too well, cannot walk as we used to walk.

Developing and keeping this site current is of great importance to many of us.

pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri
Dana, Latin student extraordinaire, welcome.  It’s really good to see you here.

Quote
and I'm not athletic or artistic or altruistic.
– I don’t believe that for a minute.  You jump hoops around the rest of us in class.

Quote
The opinions of others, ideas!  Ideas to occupy our mind as we go about the daily tasks of life.  New ideas.

Ella, so true.

In about 2 shakes a friend is coming for dinner and then we’re heading for First Friday – the night in my small community that all the art galleries open up and beckon us.  And forget about finding a place to park if you arrive after 6 pm.  This year my church is celebrating 175 years, and it is joining the art community tonight with an exhibit of works from 35 members of our small congregation.  A lot of talent here.  And most of it over 60 year-olds.

Steph – you will find a way to travel.  Already in September y ou’ve got two choices, and how I wish you could do both.

Off to try a new veggie dish.

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
I am now exploring a widows group, very large in a neighboring community. They go on bus trips and as much as I have not been fond of them, possibly it will provide a way for me to keep exploring our world. We shall see.
I love the First Friday type things. Live in too small a town to have any art galleries.. But there are several around here who do such things.. I am still somewhat timid about driving after dark.. But sooner or later it will get easier.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

ginny

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 90635
What a terrific discussion! I am enjoying it so much. I love hearing the stories of the people here on SeniorLearn, who are so inspiring, just in their approaches to life and in the ways they learned to cope with life's vicissitudes.

When I first came to SeniorNet, I was "too young," but I've marveled at the strength a lot of our members have shown, not all publicly, in their lives.  I say to myself, well XXX experienced that and look how courageously  and well she/ he did, and that acts as an exemplar. It's comforting to see The Greatest Generation is here alive, well, and coping.

Robby I think most of those at the Chicago Gathering and the Isle of Palms and your harem hahahaha are here, what fun those all were.  What great memories. I seem to remember in Chicago your giving up your own room and taking a room in a hotel away from the gathering so two women could have a central safe  place to stay, too.  That's like you, and went unheralded at the time.

 I have photos of you walking out on the beach. And I still remember your saying for long stints at the computer you always get up, I've forgotten the pattern, one hour, two hours? And walk. Maybe those of you on the  Friends site might like to let them know Robby's here in the discussion of Bruce's book and we're talking about the various gatherings we have attended over the last 12 years.

Bruce you are absolutely  fabulous. I so look forward to meeting you in NYC. It should not be a surprise after reading your book,  however.

I keep looking at the locations: Haddonfield NJ, close to Moorestown, my own stomping ground, Broward County Florida,  Takoma Park, Maryland, Warranton,  Virginia, DC, Mass, etc., etc. How did you hear about all these people in such various  locales?

I'm trying to figure out what they have in common and then what they have in common with the common man (me/ us). That stage, it seems to me,  the post retirement 65's, where you're not at the (whatever doctor said it: No Go stage) but sort of in a limbo,  really, one career finished, the late 60's---doesn't always have answers. Or clear directions. We're not all going to be like some of these folks, or even when we follow a particular dream, it MAY not be rewarded...except to provide inherent pleasure. How are small dreams different from these big ones?

Sometimes, especially in the new '60's,  when people are caught up in maybe fulfilling the expectations and challenges of daily life, they don't have a lot of time for pursuing individual pursuits and interests. And they may not feel that AHA moment that points them on the path.

So if we had to outline each story, what, I ask myself, do they have in common? Is it fair to say each one, doing what they do anyway, the mother at the party for her 2nd grader, the retired teacher wanting to help teach again, the sculptor, the late life filmmaker,  kept working on the individual thing they liked to do, and kept at it,  the "keeping at it" being key, refining it, just kept swimming, till it really did become something extraordinary?

Is it more a question of live this  day as if you knew it  were your last, or what would you do if you were told you'd live 100 more years in perfect health? What would you want to do? Is it too late?

ginny

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 90635
Another example of successful engagement by those over 60 also was on the P.O.V. program the other night, the volunteers, three senior citizens who between them have welcomed back  personally 800,000 troops. I've been on airplanes where the pilot asked for a round of applause for returning soldiers, I think the actions of those fine volunteers are incredible.

Volunteers, people who do things for the love of it, without, perhaps, an eye on the prize at the end, will be the sung heroes, I hope, of the new millennium.

Eloise

  • Posts: 247
  • Montreal
And Ginny, those seniors caring for a loved one too.

Many people over 60 who are seldom in the limelight are spouses who have been nursing their sick partner for years and years, often wearing themselves to the bone and sometimes dying before their sick spouse deserve praise, awards, medals, grants, Oscars and instead they are left alone to cope with their problems, ignored by society and often also health professionals. They don’t have time to go after their dreams because their dreams have been put on the back burner until their spouse dies and afterwards they have lost their health unable to fulfil the dream.

Jean says Women Hold Up Half the Sky yes.

JoanP

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  • Arlington, VA
From the inside cover of Bruce's book -

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"What Should I Do with the Rest of My Life"  captures the singular lives of everyday, yet extraordinary "late bloomers"  who have already discovered unforeseen pleasures, and over thrown the usual expectations of age."*


Do we all aspire to becoming "late bloomers?"  (I mean, consider the alternative!)
  Bruce presents us with success stories - people who faced challenging, often difficult times, yet were able to find a more satisfying or fulfilling way to live.  

Eloise and Ginnyspeak of the volunteers who contribute so much. Surely, (hopefully) these people find fullfillment in this service.  Bruce provides several examples of these volunteers in his book.  The two that stand out in my mind - Ira Smith and Barbara Kelly and their amazing Household Goods Recycling Ministry.  Annie and I were talking about them the other day.
Bruce's  purpose was to inspire his readers, to provide reassurance that we too might find the same success as these ordinary people.
In the course of this discussion  we are finding that it isn't easy to find the right path.  In your candid responses, we are beginning to see signs of encouragement for those who seek.   For those Ginny describes as being in a sort of "Limbo."  Just recognizing that one is in limbo is a start, don't you think? How does one get out of Limbo?   Listening to Steph considering the bus tour, leaving her comfort zone to expand her world, I can't help but be inspired.  And Fry, not ready to retire - struggling to handle that forced retirement in a new direction.  (Fry, how about leaving the old company name behind for starters! How about just BABE? :D )

Bruce, do you see a new book somewhere down the road - for those who stuggle to make a change?  For someone like me with so many interests - and commitments, that the whole situation is overwhelming?  It's not easy being Gemini!
You ask an important question -  

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What do you think it is in your experience that causes you to become connected enough to an activity, a project, a group, an idea, or whatever, that makes you feel a passionate need to see it develop?

*You asked earlier how to highlight a quote.  When you are in the Reply box, you  see two rows of buttons above the posting box.  Highlight the words you wish to quote and then, while highlighted, press the next to the last button.  See how that works for you...

Happy Saturday everyone!  Explore - outside the box!




ginny

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Quote
Here's a question for you:  What do you think it is in your experience that causes you to become connected enough to an activity, a project, a group, an idea, or whatever, that makes you feel a passionate need to see it develop?

I forgot to say this is an excellent question!! Something to ponder today.

brucefrankel

  • Posts: 37

First, apologies for writing so late last night that my first sentence if barely understandable, even to me.

Anyway...

Ella, I like your "new ideas" response. I'm guessing that has much to do with your connection to SeniorLearn.org. And I can see how addictive it can become.

The other day I mentioned my interview with philosopher William Barrett and his sad take on his failure to become a novelist. But I had another experience with Barrett, my first meeting with him, years before my interview, of which your response, Ella, reminded me. It is, I think, truly germane and makes me wonder, what if a man like Barrett had had a relationship with a group like this? (BTW: I believe I wrote his book was One Dimensional Man; I misstated: the title was Irrational Man.) Here's the story:

When I was in my 20s, I was dating a smart, contained young woman name Joanne who was still living at home with her family in Tarrytown, NY. One evening, while I was there, I was introduced to her younger sister's friend, who happened to be William Barrett's daughter, Nell. I told her how much I admired her father's work. She was astonished, being a teenager in her own world, that anyone other than her father's students might know his work. I told her how much I would love to me him. Then and there, she picked up the telephone and called her dad. "Dad, there's a guy here who says..."  When she got off the phone, Barrett's daughter said, "Willie says that if you want to meet him, drive over to the house and pick him up and bring a six-pack of beer."

I did just that, and brought him back to Joanne's parents' house, where we all sat on the floor and listened to William Barrett hold forth, opening his capacious mind and sharing his thoughts, principally on the brilliance of Cezanne, Picasso, and Giacometti. The night progressed into the wee hours. And late along, I drove Barrett home. But we ran into a few problems: a heavy fog had rolled in off the Hudson, making it difficult for me to see anything that would remind me, unfamiliar as I was with the neighborhood, how to get back to Barrett's house. And he had had too many beers to help. So, eventually I pulled off to the side of the road to wait for things to clear. While we sat there, I asked Barrett a question I can't quite remember, but it elicited a response I will never forget. He said, "If you're asking me how I go on with my life, living here," he said, in part, referring to the fact that in suburbia there was not of the intellectual hotbed of his youth. "I'll tell you, I carry my community inside me and I continue to have conversations with the great minds of my past." 

At the time, I thought it was a great and sustaining answer. Now, decades later, I see two sides of it. And what strikes me most deeply is how lucky we are if we can properly use the technology available to us properly, to be able to make real and actual connections -- and share current ideas -- to energize our minds, hearts, and lives, and not have to settle for the imagined conversation. I know there are a lot of frivolous use of the internet, but seeing the conversation here has made me see, too, how powerfully enriching and motivating a site like this can be. And what a shame Willie Barrett, who was critical of how contemporary society was missing the proper directives of technology, never got a chance to benefit.

And thank you, Ginny. Let's see if I can answer some of your questions:

I keep looking at the locations: Haddonfield NJ, close to Moorestown, my own stomping ground, Broward County Florida,  Takoma Park, Maryland, Warranton,  Virginia, DC, Mass, etc., etc. How did you hear about all these people in such various  locales?


My methods of research were various. I found some subject doing web searches like "Success after sixty?" I also called lots of organizations. I called the Small Business Administration in Washington, D.C., for example, and asked for help in finding an entrepreneur who fit my criteria. A lovely woman in the press office sent out a nationwide request, and field officers sent back recommendations. Another instance: I wrote SeniorNet and Marcie Schwarz responded by referring Robby and Betty Reid Soskin. (I am eternally grateful to Marcie.) Others came through word of mouth.

 We're not all going to be like some of these folks, or even when we follow a particular dream, it MAY not be rewarded...except to provide inherent pleasure. How are small dreams different from these big ones?


Well, first, I'm sitting here wondering: what does it mean to "be rewarded?"  Few of the people featured were "rewarded" financially, so it's not that. They were rewarded by having achieved something tangible, something that validated their steadfast efforts. And I believed such commitment and passion always leads somewhere. But what if if, say, Thomas had danced all these years in class but not gotten the break he did and fallen into the spotlight. He still would have benefitted in enormous ways. He still would have found his "truest tribe." He still would have had the intellectual, physical, and communal benefits of daily engagement with dance. What if Margie had run, but not won? For her, competition is critical and winning means a lot. But I think it's fair to imagine that her discipline, would have brought other rewards; the engagement might have meant spending more time working with young children, and that may have developed. But, of course, she would still have the reward of feeling her own, personal accomplishment, of her health and attitude. What if the Smiths had merely continued to serve their community, but had not won recognition: As happy as the recognition may make them, I have every reason to believe their daily service to others is what matters most to them. That is their reward.


So if we had to outline each story, what, I ask myself, do they have in common? Is it fair to say each one, doing what they do anyway, the mother at the party for her 2nd grader, the retired teacher wanting to help teach again, the sculptor, the late life filmmaker,  kept working on the individual thing they liked to do, and kept at it,  the "keeping at it" being key, refining it, just kept swimming, till it really did become something extraordinary?

Yes, I think that's it precisely. As Dana Dakin says, what made her organization successful wasn't "brain science, we just kept coming back." In a sense, it's that personal devotion that transforms. Neuroscientists now know that it's precisely that repetition that causes new chemical tracks to be laid down in the brain, causes neurogenisis and reorganization of the brain. And it seems to me that when what we do, passionately (meaning with devotion) and with discipline, intersects with engagement with others, what I think of as success is inevitable.


Is it more a question of live this  day as if you knew it  were your last, or what would you do if you were told you'd live 100 more years in perfect health? What would you want to do? Is it too late?

Paritially, yes. But I'm  not so sure it's necessary to add the freight of "your last day." It certainly helped Alidra Solday, though, to ask the question, "What do I want to do in my next lifetime?" when her life was threatened. Ultimately, she answered, "What if there is no next?" and she began her way to becoming a documentarian. She took a class. Then more classes. Then she found an idea. And so on, step by step, for five years. But having this conversation has made me keenly aware it is being present and committed do doing what we do. Those who do things with a civic purpose attached will, I think, naturally have expanding goals. But, for what it's worth, I believe that creativity is born of the love of doing something and the devotion and presence it requires of us. My mother's paintings will never be museum works and that was never her ambition. Her ambition was to do what she loved well, and then better. And out of that came connection to others -- in class and outside. For the purpose of the book, I sought examples of people whose work had received external validation because I thought it best to show the extent of the possible. And reading the last sentence back to myself I wonder if that doesn't ultimately hold the key to what I believe most important: Living in a state of possibility. Not the dreamy place that doesn't exist, but possibility that exists because we apply ourselves, body and soul, to what we love. 


Frybabe

  • Posts: 9947
Quote
Fry, how about leaving the old company name behind for starters!

I thought about it, JoanP, but I haven't figured out how to change the name without reregistering. Don't care for just plain Babe. Margie works.


maryz

  • Posts: 2356
    • Z's World
Great subject..  We’ve just returned from a trip to Iceland and England (24-hours of travel yesterday - does give one jet lag), so I’m just getting caught up.

Travel is certainly one of the things we took up after John retired at the end of 1991 (age 57) - and just as we mark a place off our list, we add 2-3 more to the bottom.  We’ll keep going until the health and/or money runs out.

When John was transferred to Chattanooga in 1986, I was 50 and for the first time no longer raising children, involved in the community, or working.  I had taken a painting class for fun a few years earlier, and really enjoyed it, so on the spur of the moment decided to take some more classes.  This instantly changed into going back to college full time to finish the degree I had started 35 years earlier.  I signed up at the University of Tennessee Chattanooga as a full time student, majoring in art.  Three years later, I had a BA in Art (all my academic credits from all those years ago had transferred) and a BFA in Painting.  So now I guess I’m an artist - I certainly enjoy what I do, in any case.  And that’s all that counts!

Sometimes we do things just because we’re in the right place at the right time when an opportunity comes up.  Isn’t that serendipity?

Hi, Ursamajor - I’m from Chattanooga. I found the old SeniorNet about 12 years ago, and found my way here and to Seniors & Friends after SN’s demise.  I also am a knitter, reader (Kindle2), puzzle-worker, blogger, and photographer.  As for exercise, I participate in a deep-water aerobics class 3 days a week at our local Y.

I’ve always felt that everyone is creative in some way or other - participating in “the arts” is not the only way to express yourself.  Dance has been mentioned here, but any kind of music will do - and what about cooking? Or decorating? Or gardening? Or volunteering and organizing?  The list goes on…..

Ps - I’m 74.
"When someone you love dies, you never quite get over it.  You just learn how to go on without them. But always keep them safely tucked in your heart."

ANNIE

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  • Downtown Gahanna
    • SeniorLearn
Here's a good story from a lady author who I think contacted me when I was in charge of Author's Corner back in the dark ages on SN.  She would certainly fit into one of Bruce's books.
http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewarticle.asp?AuthorID=1713&id=11784
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

pedln

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  • SE Missouri

Quote
He said, "If you're asking me how I go on with my life, living here," he said, in part, referring to the fact that in suburbia there was not of the intellectual hotbed of his youth. "I'll tell you, I carry my community inside me and I continue to have conversations with the great minds of my past." 


Bruce, I'm not sure I know what W. Barret was saying. He didn't feel he got stimulation from those in his community?  He looked only to within?  That could be lonely  .   .   or snobby, I"m not sure.  He sounds like a decent person, otherwise, though unfullfilled, as you mentioned earlier.

Welcome MaryZ, and thank you for sharing your “second life” activities with us.  I knew than both you and John were really very good photographers, but didn’t know that you were also an artist.

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I’ve always felt that everyone is creative in some way or other - participating in “the arts” is not the only way to express yourself.  Dance has been mentioned here, but any kind of music will do - and what about cooking? Or decorating? Or gardening? Or volunteering and organizing?  The list goes on

We can put so many on that list.  This discussion has set me to thinking about many who, while they may not have gone into second endeavors in their later years, continued on with their careers practically until the day they died. Jessica Tandy is one who come to mind – winning an Oscar at age 80, and acting in two others in 1993 and in 94, the year of death.

And then there is Tao Porchon-Lynch, a 91 year-old yogi and ballroom dancer found on Bruce’s website.

Tao, Yogi and Dancer

And check out her video (link on the page)  Ann, you mentioned about the trim and thin people the other day.  And here's flexible, too.



Eloise

  • Posts: 247
  • Montreal
Ginny, I guess many of us here have already met over the years at one of SeniorNet's gatherings and Robby was always the most popular bachelor dancing with every lady in sight. He was appointed King of the Williamsport Bash, Callie do you remember? It was there that I met Pedln and Anne, Joan R, Stephanie, Ginny and Robby and many more. It was enormous fun to meet seniors with whom I had known only through our discussions on SN. I am looking forward to seeing some of you when we get together in New York next month for our Soirée in NYC.

Ursamajor  “I would like to be able to get past "What's the point? .... of paint ing or anything else." My 85 year old brother, at the age of 52, when he was forced into retirement as an accountant, became a famous painter and last year he won the Quebec National Assembly Medal for his contribution to the arts. He still paints even if he is now  partly paralyzed.

brucefrankel

  • Posts: 37


Good morning.

Thank you AdoAnnie for the reference to Carolyn Howard-Johnson; I will take a look at her novel.

And greetings MaryZ. I'm wondering if SeniorLearn.org has any way for members to post their art, writing, or video. If it doesn't already exist, it might be great to have a SeniorLearn gallery, where members could go to take a look at the work their classmates and correspondents were doing. Do you, MaryZ paint regularly? Why are you hesitant about calling yourself an artist?

Apologies for the garbled sentence on Barrett:

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He said, "If you're asking me how I go on with my life, living here," he said, in part, referring to the fact that in suburbia there was not of the intellectual hotbed of his youth. "I'll tell you, I carry my community inside me and I continue to have conversations with the great minds of my past." 
  I meant to write "... referring to the fact that in suburbia he didn't have access to the intellectual hotbed of his youth."

As an editor of the Partisan Review and later the literary critic for the Atlantic Monthly magazine, he had the most vibrant kind of intellectual life imagineable. He was good friend with the poet Delmore Schwartz for many years, until Schwartz's decline, and he knew such literary figures as Edmund Wilson, Philip Rahv, and Albert Camus.

PedIn asked:
Code: [Select]
Bruce, I'm not sure I know what W. Barret was saying. He didn't feel he got stimulation from those in his community?  He looked only to within?  That could be lonely  .   .   or snobby, I"m not sure.  He sounds like a decent person, otherwise, though unfullfilled, as you mentioned earlier.
Barrett felt isolated in suburbia. I have no real way of knowing how much he really knew of his neighbors. But he felt unsuited to live in his bedroom community, where so many of the men boarded the train each morning at the Tarrytown train station and went off to their jobs in the city. Barrett imagined most of them going to work on Wall Street, though that was no doubt less true than he imagined. Other than his bi-weekly trips into New York City (30 min. by train south of Tarrytown) to teach at NYU, I think he felt quite cut-off from any kind of intellectual conversation on which he might have thrived. So, yes, it was a lonely existence. I think he was very happy when Nell, his teenage daughter from his second marriage, brought kids through the house. My point, though, was this: I wondered how much different his life might have been if he had been living in a time where simply by joining something like SeniorLearn he might have found a meaningful outlet for his wish to engage intellectually. I don't think he was a snob. He was brilliant and erudite, and spent much of his life studying things that he felt few who lived around him knew much about. They were, to his mind, well versed in the assessed valuations of their homes, not much up on Kant and Hegel. He was, though, not just commenting on his neighbors; he was also commenting on the fact that he didn't possess a common language.

Tao Porchon-Lynch is an amazing woman. Last week, she taught a yoga class in New York City and Jane Fonda came down from Woodstock, NY, to take it. One of the truly astonishing things is how quickly Tao repaired after she broke both wrists when she slipped on an icy, rickety back staircase for a Chinese restaurant she had gone into up in Westchester. Since taking her class, I have tried to follow her advice and do at least a little yoga in the morning on rising and at night before sleep. She is convinced it is the twists that have been particularly beneficial as she aged. Her degree of flexibility is just amazing. Lovely woman!


maryz

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    • Z's World
Hi Bruce - interesting question (why do I hesitate to call myself an “artist”?)  I guess I always feel there’s more to learn and do.  I usually describe myself as a “painter”, reserving the term “artist” to the Masters.  I do paint often.   The gallery where I’ve been showing, and using as my studio, has just closed and I’m having to decide where and when I’m going to be able to work.  I’ve been painting and hanging-out with my friend/teacher/mentor/gallery owner for over 20 years.  She’s had a major life change, and decided to close her space.  So even now, things change and we must deal with the changes.

The “ordinary” people in your book doing extra-ordinary things are inspiring to all of us…maybe not so much “extra-ordinary” as just “a little bit more”.
"When someone you love dies, you never quite get over it.  You just learn how to go on without them. But always keep them safely tucked in your heart."