Author Topic: Talking Heads ~ Expectations for retirement living with author Bruce Frankel  (Read 51556 times)

ALF43

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Talking Heads #10
A  forum for opinions on anything in print: magazines, newspaper articles, online: bring your ideas and let's discuss.

"Choices – For the Rest of Your Life?"

We are fortunate to have Bruce Frankel as our guest  in this month's Talking Heads discussion.  Bruce is  the author of  "What Should I Do With the Rest of My Life?" in which he presents us with more than a dozen profiles of individuals he calls "ordinary people who embraced new possibilities late in life - extraordinary late bloomers who have overthrown the usual expectations of age."
Profiled in the book is one of SeniorLearn's  own Discussion Leaders,  Robby Iadeluca, a practicing clinical psychologist, who still conducts a full schedule of therapy sessions, five days a week at the age of 90! A Review of  Bruce's book; Amazon link

Our questions for Bruce as we consider these profiles:
- Are these ordinary people like you and me...or do they possess extraordinary talent, wealth or physical fitness?
- What inspiration can we take from his research today
?
Thanks for joining us, Bruce!  We're looking forward to hearing your words of acquired wisdom!

*******************************************************************************
On the other side of the issue, ..."Gerontologists tend to think of successful aging as taking advantage of what potential there is, staying as socially and intellectually engaged as possible. Our culture tends to measure it more in terms of how active people are."
"Part of the pressure on older people to be successful and give back and volunteer and be active and play tennis is that we are a culture of doing. We don't really know how to be. That's something that late life gives us, is time to be. But that's stigmatized." "Turn 70.Act Your Grandchild’s Age"  Kate Zernike, NY Times
 
1. Are goals and expectations necessary for our “second life?”
2. What is ageism?  Outside of public policy decisions (i.e. Social Security, medicare, etc.) should age be a consideration?
3.  Whose Second Lives do you celebrate?
4. Do you or did you look forward to life after 65?
5. Did you have any specials plans.


 Your opinion?  Let's discuss!


I am absolutely blown away by this discussion.  It reminds me of the "old" SNet discussions of yesteryear, when we all came together wanting to voice our individual opinions and contemplate the thoughts of thers.  This is great and I thank you Bruce for the opportunity to read this.  I am going out tomorrow (when and if I ever get home) and buy your book.  After all,I will meet you in NYCity and would love to discussany issue in your book.

Everyone of you amaze me.  You are so proficient and dedicated in all that you do.  It amazes me that any one of you question your great worth.  Robbie, our resident bachelor is of course held in greatest esteem by each one of us. Ginny, JoanP,Marcie, Jane, Pedln,Eloise, Steph, many of you whom I've already met and many of you, I am looking forward to meeting, amaze me with your vibrant wit, gentle humor, your dedication to learning and your humility.
You have what I sorely lack and that is dedication and commitment.  
Daily, I question myself about the issues that have been posited here by Bruce and by the posters.
Daily, I search my heart and my mind asking myself "where do I go" where do I belong, what do I want to do?"
I'm not big on bucket lists so after 2 years of various courses at the college level and the local level of our community I still sit and shake my head, wondering with sadness, "Is there a place for me?"  Where do I want to go from here?
Bruce's book may just be the connection to commitment that I need.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

Robby

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I may have missed it but I don't recall Bruce explaining how he celebrated Harry's birthday.  He carefully removed the first page of the chapter of each of the other twelve of us and mailed them to us.  We then wrote a Happy Birthday inscription on this first page and mailed it back to Bruce.  Bruce then carefully put them back again in their proper place.

Wasn't that a neat gift?

Robby

ANNIE

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Robby,
Yes, that is a neat idea for Harry's birthay present.  By the way, are you joining us at Sarabeth's for tea on Sept 11th??  We would love to have you attend.

I have decided that my place in life is being a CATALYST.  I have so much enthusiasm about life in general and I am always directing people where to contact someone, where to find a class, a talk being given, a book that you cannot miss, etc,etc. 
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

brucefrankel

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Thanks, Robby. It was a great way for me to bring everyone from the book to join me in celebrating Harry Bernstein's 100th birthday. He is, after all, the senior member of the book. But more, it gave me an opportunity, to feel as if all the people in the book who had shared so much with me could be joined in a collective act.

Too, Harry had been very generous in praising the book and in expressing his admiration of others in the book, and I knew how much it would mean to him to have everyone in the book wishing him well. And it did. He was very grateful and moved.

I am always amazed by Harry's mind and memory, but was growing concerned about his ability to bounce back from an illness. He had been recovering for months in his daughter's apartment in Brooklyn Heights. Always, when we spoke, even through his worst coughing spells, he remained committed to finishing his fourth book, which he was dictating onto a recorder for his daughter, a nurse practitioner with many responsibilities, to type at night before she went to bed. Every time we spoke over the phone as I worked on the book, Harry would, at some point turn the conversation away from him and ask me, "So, Bruce, how is the book coming?"

I was as desperate to see it published in March for my sake as to be able to say to Harry, it has been published. I knew how much he wanted that for me. Having suffered so many years of rejection -- 40 novels rejected -- over so many years, he was, other than my mother and Robby, perhaps my greatest cheerleader. He even nominated me for a Guggenheim award, of which he is the oldest recipient ever. So, my gratitude to Harry as a subject for my book, as a model of persistence as a writer, and now as a friend is considerable.

 I prayed that he would be well enough to celebrate his birthday on May 30. That that morning, when he awoke, he felt a little disoriented. He was, after all, not in his own home, but still in the hospital bed in the spare bedroom of his daughter's apartment (in the converted hotel where my parents were married in 1947!). He wasn't sure yet if he would attend his party. He knew there would be lots of people, relatives and friends, but he wasn't sure how he felt about it all. He reviewed birthdays passed, ones celebrated long, long ago on the divided street in Stockport, England where he grew up before WWI and ones he celebrated with his beloved Ruby in their first apartment in Greenwich Village when he was first trying to become a novelist.

He got up and got dressed in a now too-large corduroy jacket, and, from his wheelchair, greeted everyone who came to the restaurant to celebrate. He gave a gracious speech, thanking everyone, including his editors who were present and a reader who has come to visit his every week, for their support and wishes. After the cake was finished, Harry went home and within a few days had completed his fourth book, sent it off to his agent, and had a new novel underway. It was a joyful 100th birthday!

Maryz, thank you for your remarks on the discussion!

You wrote:
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Daily, I search my heart and my mind asking myself "where do I go" where do I belong, what do I want to do?"
I'm not big on bucket lists so after 2 years of various courses at the college level and the local level of our community I still sit and shake my head, wondering with sadness, "Is there a place for me?"  Where do I want to go from here?

I spent quite a while last night pondering the best way to respond. It sounds as if you are already on your way, taking courses. As Robby would be the first to point out, there are many questions one would want to ask before jumping in with any answer for you.  We, of course, each already have "a place." The question is how we develop it, how we leverage our individual experience and history in a meaningful way. There is, I believe, no universal answer, no single script. We are too individual in our natures, histories, family backgrounds and relationships, and experience for that.

But asking yourself questions is always a good place to start. For instance, in recent times, whose story have you perked up at? who have you heard about and said, "Wow, if I could ever..."?? What job or cause or area of study have you come across that caused you to say, 'That's interesting, I wish I had the time to ... ' ? Writing down the answers as an exercise may be helpful. Trying to understand where your own resistance comes from in choosing a path may also be helpful, for ultimately we're our own worst gatekeepers. I've seen a suggestion that as an exercise it's helpful to write down jobs and paths you don't want to take, list why, and then, write down the opposite of those negatives for your perfect path's description. But I'm more and more inclined to think the answer for all of us lies at the intersection of mindful curiosity (taking the time to recognize and pursue our curiosity, seeing meaning and value in that pursuit) and action while in doubt (taking steps, no matter how small, rudimentary, ordinary, or distant from our imagined goal) and using visualization (taking the time to fill ourselves with the vision of our fantasy, no matter how grandiose). 

In reading your question, I'm reminded of something an educator once told me about how to talk to your child after a day in school. He told me that it's a waste of time to ask a child what he did with his day at school when he comes home. The child will, predictably shrug and say, "Nothin'." I think we're a little like that child when we ask ourselves such a large question as "What should I do with the rest of my life?"

Why does the child say, "Nothin'" ? The educator suggested to me that it was because the opposite was true. The child's day is filled with so many things he can barely remember them all, and he learns early that what adults seem to want to hear about are outcomes, not, "Oh, I looked at an ant today."  So, the educator suggested, when you ask a child about his day, ask him to tell you one thing he did or saw or thought about. Inevitably, talking about one thing will lead to others.

By the same token, I wonder if it isn't too much to ask of yourself -- particularly when asked with "sadness" and judgment -- 'Where is my place?' Better, I suspect, to ask, "Where is my place today, now?" and work from there. As I have said, most of the people in my book could not have predicted where they would end up.

 But they seemed to have a couple of traits in common. They forgave themselves their "failures." Forgiveness of the self unlocks the door that self-blame keeps barred. It is a terrible paradox, but a true one. Of that, I am convinced. Self-blame keeps you tied to the past, protected from risk, and unable to access the very energy needed to move forward. The subjects of the book also live their lives forward: they keep their attention on the things that they want to accomplish. And I think they accept that it is a process, but are able to celebrate each step as if it were tantamount to succeeding entirely. They don't say, "I'm only taking a class." They connect it to their goal and celebrate it.

Lastly, while I might be the first person to make fun of it, I believe in the benefit of visualization. I know from reading in neurology that when we see ourselves doing things, our brain -- particularly the more practice we give it -- fires the same way it would if we were doing that thing. So, imagining is practicing. And becoming something, anything, is a matter of regular practice. And practice, not to go all yogic on you, is about doing something mindfully, in this moment, without judgment. When I began working on the book, a friend told me to see myself talking about the book on Oprah. I couldn't do that without subverting the image. But what I could and did do -- every time I flagged -- was close my eyes and see myself writing final pages, or handing the manuscript over, or signing the published book for someone. Every day, I got on the treadmill at the gym, I told myself, if I can make it for 30 minutes today, I can write another page; and I would see myself six months away, in better shape, ready for my publication. Ha! Dumb, I know, but effective.


JoanK

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ALF: it's hard to believe that you question yourself: you are such a spirit for the rest of us.

I am questioning myself, too. I feel that I am in a rut, spending too much of my time on meaningless activities. But don't know where to go from here.

I'm reminded: when I retired, I knew I would feel guilty for not working. So I made a checklist for myself: if I did these things every day, then I would give myself permission to spend the rest of my time however I wanted.

Every day, I would do:

Something for my spiritual health
Something for my physical health
Something for my family
Something for the community.

I've gotten away from that, and I need to return to it.

ANNIE

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JoanK,
What a simple but meaningful list. I will print it and place it where it remind me daily to accomplish these goals and when I do to be satisfied.  We can't always be heroes but in keeping ourselves satisfied, we can certainly be happier which makes the people around us feel good.
  
When I found SN, 13 years ago, I certainly never expectected to  to make so many new friends or begin a whole new life at 62  When I remember all of the joys and sorrows that we have shared throughout the years, welcoming new grans,  comforting each other and saying goodbye to those who have left us, I feel honored to know all of you.


"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

ALF43

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Bruce- bless you for even thinking of responding to my musings.  It is more of a Quest than it is a question.  I do not, however feel that I am anywhere near close- taking courses is a way of life for me, it is an escape, a search, a crusade of sorts to expand my mind and thus-- my thoughts.  I exam and search and then I reach to find!
I have long felt that I would discover this "thing" that I was meant to be or do, hoping to light upon that inimitable search--haha,ha, I sound a bit like Don Quioxte don't I?
I hate being defined as a nurse, as a mother or as a grandmother.  That is designating someone as an occupation, not as an individaul.
 Don't  get me wrong, it has been my life since I am 13 years old to care for, tend to and nurse.  I love it but it is NOT what i wish to do with the rest of my life.  After retiring from an admirable nursing career I want to dig my heels into something else.  It is my duty to find my own way but I am floundering.
Perhaps you are correct in saying "ask yourself questions."  Perhaps I will start with that today.
When I ask myself what is interesting, I jump at it ALL!
  I love to read, to learn and will now concentrate on your thought that "trying to understand where your own resistance comes from in choosing a path may also be helpful."  I agree I am my own worst gate keeper.  I love that thought and have printed it our to be on my desk.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

Steph

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Alf, if anyone can find the path, it will be you. You have endless joy in life and the verve to get up and do whatever you want.
The biggest lesson I have learned in the past eight months.. You can either stand still and die or put up your chin, shoulders back and forge ahead..
So I forge ahead, even though some days, I really want to crawlback in bed and pull the covers over my head.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

ANNIE

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Andy,
Don't ever think you aren't where you are supposed to be.  Something will come along and while you are waiting, please keep your sweet self content.   You are such a credit to this group, with your bright smile and strong support for others.
Steph,
You have been through a hard year but we all know you are doing what needs to be done to keep yourself going.
((((hugs to both of you))))))
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

pedln

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Ann, you are definitely a Catalyst, and Lord knows, we sure need them.  The things you do to and for  your family and those around you.  We’re all so lucky you’re here.

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I hate being defined as a nurse, as a mother or as a grandmother.  That is designating someone as an occupation, not as an individaul.

Andy, I don’t think anyone wants to be defined as any one thing, or even defined by others.  Your comments remind me of a story told about the wife of an outgoing and very popular minister in Nashville several years ago.  She was at some luncheon event and introduced to others as Mary SoandSo, to which some responded, “Oh you’re Bill SoandSo’s wife.”  To which she responded, “I’m a lot more than Bill SoandSo’s wife.”

JoanK, shortly after reading your very appropriate list, I came across the “manifesto” of Lululemon, a Canadian company that makes yoga clothes and equipment. Some of the items caught my eye and seem appropriate to add here.

  Do one thing a day that scares you.
  That which matters the most should never give way to that which matters the least.
  The conscious brain can only hold one thought at a time. Choose a positive thought.
   Dance, sing, floss and travel.


It’s funny the little nuggets of memory that this discussion brings forth. Bruce, your comments about the child who says “nuthin” because he’s full of so many things remind me of a writer telling about family traditions.  Every evening at the dinner table each child had to tell something, in detail, about one thing they had seen or done that day.  Over the years that really developed their powers of observation and narration.

ALF43

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Pedln- It matters not what anyone calls me, it matters how I view myself.  I never ask someone what they did before they moved into this retirement community.  It becomes a label- aclassification, if you will.  AND how did you know that I am "Bill's so and so wife?" :o

I love your stories and do agree with yu about the value of having Ann as an impetus for eveyone that she comes in contact with and everything that she does.  Bravo Annie!
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

brucefrankel

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I've been scurrying today to put up a new post on my website and get more pages written for the book I am currently ghost writing. The post is  on a recent  study that suggests a regular schedule of social dancing into old age not only benefits posture and balance, but preserves cognition, memory and other abilities needed for maintaining daily life.

PedIn, I like the Lululemon manifesto. And even more, I like the writer's family's tradition. And it's right in line with exercises in a book of Neurobics -- exercises for the brain -- I read a few years ago and try to practice from time to time. It suggested making one thing a point of visual focus for the week, like noses or eyes on a face, and work to be truly conscious of them and distinguish between their characteristics. Not only, did the book's author suggest, will doing this enhance a person's power of concentration and memory, it will stimulate the brain in novel ways. Sometimes, in Manhattan, I just walk down the street acquiring noses.

You guys are so supportive of each other. It's really an awesome thing to see. It's proof, too, that not all our undertakings need to be individual, being engaged in something collective, like this site, is itself an important contribution and something of which you can all be justifiably proud.



ANNIE

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Bruce,
If you want to see how supportive and caring this group is, take peek into our discussion of how we are going to handle the NYC SeniorLearn Soriee, where you will be joining us on the 11th at Sarabeth's.  Lots of plans have had to change but we all just seemed to roll with the punches.  In the meantime, we have tried to plan for all who are attending.  Take a look:http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=90.0

We have done this trip to NYC three times plus the same kinds of meetings in Chicago(where we were met with a closing down of our chosen hotel and planned luncheon.We had just found out the night before because a couple of our members arrived early). Then we met, in Wash.DC, and on the Isle of Palms.  Now these were with the books groups.  Our French Canadian, Eloise planned a bash including all the members on SeniorNet in Montreal plus there was Calgary, Arizona, Norfolk, Atlanta-all big bashes.  But we also had smaller member groups in the states.  Ours in Ohio was called the Toledo Trotters. We tried to meet at least once a year.  The group in Indy and Illinois seem to meet more often. I believe that the Washington/Oregon group still gets together.  Its just been too much fun!!
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Steph

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Isle of Palms is such a good memory for me. We had such fun, even though Ginny got chicken about the bridge.. I am looking forward to next years bash, since I cant attend this one.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

JoanP

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It's really an experience reading several days of your posts all at once after having been away for a bit!  Was ready to comment on Andy's question - when I got sidetracked by the image of Bruce walking around Manhattan - "acquiring noses"!  :D  Has anyone ever caught you staring at her nose?  Some people are very sensitive about their noses!   Tell again how this is beneficial to the brain? (Watch out for Bruce in New York next month, you all!)

I'll agree with you about the importance of social dancing...any social exchange for that matter...especially as we age when the tendency is to turn inward.  One of my best memories of an older couple dancing...at a wedding.  They did "The Peabody."  Have you ever danced it - or seen anyone dance it.  These two moved, really moved all around the room - cleared the dance floor as everyone gaped - and applauded.  

Back to Andy's comment when encouraged to question where her curiosity and interests lie  -
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When I ask myself what is interesting, I jump at it ALL!
 Andy...I understand exactly what you mean.  My problem too.  
Bruce suggests  "trying to understand where your own resistance comes from in choosing a path."   Do you feel that by choosing one path, you must exclude ALL others?  I'm reminded of   Yogi Berra...remember when he said  - "when you come to a fork in the road, take it."  What do you suppose he meant?
Do you think some of us were just made to take the forks as they come? 

Eloise

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OK everybody on the dance floor for The Peabody

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naOfHtYJX0w

This is so lively you feel like getting on the floor and dance with them.

But at the Montreal Bash everybody said they were so tired on the last evening dance, but when Elvis songs played everybody was on the dance floor barefeet and arms flying. I have photos to prove it.

mabel1015j

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 Annie said: I have decided that my place in life is being a CATALYST.  I have so much enthusiasm about life in general and I am always directing people where to contact someone, where to find a class, a talk being given, a book that you cannot miss, etc,etc.

I think we are clones, Annie. I feel like i have so much info in my "computer/brain" and when i hear someone say something that i can draw up a "recommendation" for, i feel useful giving it to them. Of course, that's not new for me, i was parodied in a 1980's NOW skit at our local Alice Paul Chapter of NOW. The premise was that when anyone one mentioned an issue, "Jean" had a person for them to contact.............LOL.  Guess that's why i enjoyed teaching/training so much, i just kept giving out information for decades.

I'm still doing it. Next April i will be faciliating a Women's History course at a retirement community near me. The people there are in all stages of physical fitness, some great, some not so great, but they have great minds (they remind me of all of you)  and they've developed a "university" for themselves. The knowledge, and questions, they bring to each topic is wonderful. I can't wait to get my course started w/ them. .........jean

brucefrankel

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Annie and Jean - Being a "catalyst" sounds like a good thing to me. I suppose that part of being a writer is also being a catalyst. It's as if you have two brains, sometimes, working at once, which to a degree we all do. As a writer, I'm forever going back and forth between the maker-brain that pulls me deep into my screen and the march of words, trying to get the right word and right order. And then there's the catalyst-brain that is trying to figure out who these words are meant to serve and why and how they can best do it. Malcolm Gladwell, I think, calls the "catalyst" the "connector." Yes? It's a full-time occupation.

Well, it is kind of funny that I do, and still occasionally, do this thing, of collecting facial features. And now that I think about it, my father had a very prominent nose, so maybe there is something Oedipal in it.

I sometimes collect eyes, too, though. And head shapes.

Part of it is that I think I wish I could also be an fine artist. I took some life drawing classes when I was in college and went off to Florence, to live with my adored art history professor and her family, for a year after I graduated college. I read, scribbled, and drifted in and out of museums, not sure yet which direction to go. But, foolishly, I see now, I thought it was too late to become an artist. When I worked in newspapers and magazines, I spent much time in meetings sketching faces, often learning more about people than if I had taking the dictation of their words down in a notebook.

But I think the actual suggestion for the exercise of acquiring features came from Richard Restak, M.D., the author of Mozart's Brain and the Fighter Pilot. I believe the idea was to train the brain to greater levels of attention and, in later recalling the features, improving memory. But I just tried to locate the exercise and couldn't find it. It's plausible that I conflated a brain exercise and an Buddhist-inspired exercise from Sharon Salzburg's book Lovingkindness, The Revolutionary Art of Happiness.

According to Semi Zeki, who pioneered the study of the visual brain, "seeing" is not a unitary process, Restak reported. Rather Zeki wrote "there are multiple systems for processing different attributes of the visual scene."  Retak noted that vision, along with all of our other senses, is an active process, not a passive one as scientists long believed. In Inner Vision: An Exploration of Art and the Brain, Zeki wrote, "Art is an active process, a search for essentials; i is thus a creative process whose function constitutes an extension of the function of the visual brain... We see in order to be able to acquire knowledge about the world."

In Lovingkindness, there was an exercise of walking down the street and conferring the wishes "I wish you physical safety, I wish you health, I wish you ease of well-being" upon people at random. I still do that from time to time. It opens the heart to others. It reminds us of how connected we are in this life. And it silently tries to bring a consciousness of peace and tolerance into the world. It also feels that, as a reward, it has a healing effect, too. I practiced this exercise of generosity when circumstances were making me want to feel otherwise. Doing it regularly helped me feel as if, though I had little else to give, I was doing some good, being somehow a catalyst for good in other people's lives.

ginny

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What a sweet story of Harry's birthday present from Bruce and everything around his party, thank you  Robby for mentioning it.

Joan K, that's beautiful!

Bruce, you are the biggest surprise of the year. I am not sure why I am surprised, given the book, but I am anyway. What an absolutely super experience this is, both in your own responses and that of our readers here.   Thank you!


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But, foolishly, I see now, I thought it was too late to become an artist. When I worked in newspapers and magazines, I spent much time in meetings sketching faces, often learning more about people than if I had taking the dictation of their words down in a notebook.

You thought it was too late then? You look 30 years old now! hahaha If it's not too late for us, at any age,  what's stopping you?  :)

I'm struck by something in the heading:
 "Choices – For the Rest of Your Life?" and something Bruce said earlier about the choices we make,  and visualization.

For some reason that makes me think that everything is actually a choice. You can't help most of the time what happens to you, but you can choose how to respond to it.  Think of a diet:  not to choose is a choice, actually, when you think about it. There's something kind of comforting in that, for some reason, but is it valid? Or specious?


brucefrankel

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Thank you, Ginny. It's a pleasure.

And, of course I meant to type:
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if I had been taking the dictation of their words down in a notebook.

I was in my 20s, of course, when I thought I was too old to become an artist. If I had any spare time or money now, I'm fairly confident one of the first courses I would invest in would be some kind of life drawing class -- that and French. But things being what they are, 2 college tuitions, 1 high schooler in private school, etc, right now, the program excludes far too much I would love to do. But, as I have said, if I learned nothing else from writing the book, I learned from Robby and Betty, from Harry and Loretta, Nancy and Alidra and Myrna, to keep my eyes on the prize.

Today, I spent part of the day interviewing Yaakov Stern, Ph. D. at the Taub Institute for Alzheimer's and Dementia research, at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital, on the subject of cognitive reserve. Stern is not sure if he coined the phrase, but he certainly was one of the pioneering scientists to explore the idea that peoples education, behaviors, and pursuits may help the brain to cope with damage caused by disease or aging. Initially, he thought it was about education. He adjusted his view over the years. Adding leisure activities, all forms of learning, physical activity remain key. Yesterday, I posted a blog about how amateur dancers benefited. Today, I got to think more deeply about why. No one, of course, has the answers yet. It's still conceptual. But we're getting ever closer to actually being able to see how  learning benefit the brain.

brucefrankel

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 Note to self: read before hitting send!

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how learning benefits the brain.

pedln

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I'm reminded of   Yogi Berra...remember when he said  - "when you come to a fork in the road, take it."  What do you suppose he meant?


Don’t just stand there.  Take it.  Move on. 

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Do you think some of us were just made to take the forks as they come?


Yes, because we didn’t know they were coming.  And that makes me think of Jean --

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The premise was that when anyone one mentioned an issue, "Jean" had a person for them to contact...
    You could say she was offering them a “fork”.  And she’s very definitely a catalyst or connector, as Gladwell would say.

JoanP, thanks for bringing up the Peabody, and Eloise, thanks for the link to it.  What a fun thing to do and to watch.

Eloise

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Ginny, I like your though on choice. Sometimes you make choices on the spur of the moment that are not necessarily the best choice and later regret it, but we can't spend an lot of time thinking if it's going to be the right choice or not and go for the enthusiasm you feel at that moment.

When I was 13 I decided that knowing English would enhance my life and I changed from a French to an English school. That decision made a tremendous impact on the rest of my life, I married a man whose mother tongue was English and 3 of my 4 daughters did the same. I truly believe that knowing other languages is good for cognition and my wish this fall is to take Spanish. My granddaughter speaks three languages.

We all want a challenge here and will continue doing that till we die.


brucefrankel

  • Posts: 37

How much time each week do you think learning Latin -- or any language -- requires?

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Eloise- It would not mater if you had chosen Swahili to learn and speak.  You are a true scholar and a lady.  I think it is wonderful that the children are now offered Chinese in school, It amazes me how quickly they pick up on it and God knows we will need that skill in the years to come.

Ginny- both the thoughts of choice and "a fork in the road" are entertwined for me.  From an early age, on- my dad used to tell me think about it and make your choice, remembering that what you determine may or may not be the correct choice.  It doesn't matter, make it!  Trust your judgement and your maker, he used to say.  If it is wrong, it can be rectified.  (Of course working intensive Care Units, I have found that is not always the choice.  Some things just CAN NOT be rectified.   ::)
It's like Pedln said, take it and move on.  I personally have made many excellent selections and have also bottomed out on a few.  (We won't even discuss husband #1- what's his name?)
Bruce-
Quote
Note to self: read before hitting send!
Haa Welcome to my disorderly mind. :D
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Ginny can probably answer that question Bruce more accurately but I tend to believe we each learn at different rates.  Some need longer time to read, others must use visualization techniques, auditory aids or just plain old repetition to learn.  I feel fortunate that I am a quick learner and I always try to assist others that are struggling.
In all honestly however, there are somethings, (like math) that I am dumber than a box of hammers and have no desire to learn. ;D
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

ursamajor

  • Posts: 305
Sometimes we need to be reminded that not making a choice constitutes a choice in itself.

About learning Latin:  I found it easy until it got to the point of memorizing the enormous number of verb forms; that was too much for me!  It stopped being fun right there.  I wonder if memorizing becomes more difficult as we age....?  Seems to be nearly impossible for me.

pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri

How much time each week do you think learning Latin -- or any language -- requires?


As Andy said,  we all learn at different rates.  I can't speak for other languages, but for me, Latin has to be a daily thing.  How much time each day -- varies with the assignment and who, what we're reading.  I try to set standards for when the class doesn't meet -- like now -- such as read something out loud every day, but unfortunately don't always keep them.

Quote
Note to self: read before hitting send!

Isn't it amazing, the strange words that pop up into our writing, especially when we're typing ahead of thoughts -- or should that be -- our thoughts are ahead of our typing.  Good advice, Bruce.

mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
It interests me that more than a few of the people i am in contact w/ have taken up art/painting in their retirement yrs................huuummm. i.e.....Sev'l of you here, plus Bruce's thinking it might be in his future, some of the folks in the retirement community i mentioned before,  and a friend of mine.

My friend was in municipal management all his adult years, but in retirement has become an accomplished, selling painter. He started in water colors and painted lovely landscape scenes. He's now moved into acrylics/abstracts and recently had a one-man exhibit, selling 6 of his acrylics from the show.......................

Questions in my tho'ts: why didn't this interest present itself earlier in your lives? why does it present itself now? was being an artist - yes Mary - not "the thing to do" when you were younger? did making a living supercede being an artist? is there something in our mature years that makes us more observant than in our younger years, more introspective, more searching for beauty? ...................jean

maryz

  • Posts: 2356
    • Z's World
Jean, I don't remember being interested in art as a child.  Definitely not like my friend here who we joke "came of the chute with a paintbrush in her hand".  As our youngest was getting ready to graduate from high school, we thought we needed to find some other interests.  I had seen a lovely book of pen-and-ink drawings accented with splotches of watercolors and it had caught my interest.  We signed up to take a weekend watercolor workshop at the local community college, and I was hooked.  I was 43 at the time and had never used an artist's paintbrush before - at least not since elementary school .  John took the classes for a while, but then quit.  Obviously, I stayed with it. 

We married while in college (ages 21 and 19) and immediately had children (as happened in those days).  I raised kids and did community stuff, then, as the girls got older, worked to put money in the college funds.  I "retired" at 50 when John got transferred, and we moved away from my job.  That's when I went back to school full-time.
"When someone you love dies, you never quite get over it.  You just learn how to go on without them. But always keep them safely tucked in your heart."

ANNIE

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 2977
  • Downtown Gahanna
    • SeniorLearn
CONNECTOR!!  THAT'S WHAT JEAN AND I ARE!  I LIKE THAT BETTER THAN CATALYST, i think?  Well we do have the same habits of always being able to connect with someone.  We take in information that may have nothing to do with anything and store it.  Then we drag it up and place it on the table for someone to consider.  This keeps our brains pretty busy.

I was out of breath watching that dance.  My gosh, the Peabody is awesome!  The older couple who danced that at the wedding that JoanP attended musn't have been very old.  Did they have an ambulance awaiting them at the end? Hahaha!
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
" You can't help most of the time what happens to you, but you can choose how to respond to it".

A friend (a yoga teacher) has a poster of a yogi doing a difficult pose on a surfboard, with the caption "You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf."

pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri
Boy, things are clicking – here and around – or maybe I should say connecting.  Today I received an email from our local library inviting me to serve on a Senior Advisory group that would advise on programming of particular interest to Seniors.  Of course I responded immediately with a big yes, managing at the same time to express comments about SeniorLearn and our discussion with Bruce about his book.  But as much as I look forward to being a catalyst/connector for our programs here, I’m also very interested in hearing what others have to say.  Sometimes we get so caught up in our own activities that we not aware about what others want or need.  We don’t start until October, I’ll keep you posted.  Please let me know if you have special programs for Seniors in your library setting.

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
Our Friends of the Library sponsors a Senior group each Friday for 10 months a year. Meets around 9:30 on Fridays in our little cafe. Sometimes we have speakers of various types, at least once a month, we chat and try to keep everyone up on senior matters in our area. Fun.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

Eloise

  • Posts: 247
  • Montreal
I have always wished to do something artistic and if only I could have afforded to do it full time when I was young, but.... I guess when people come to retirement age they can finally pursue the most rewarding activity in the world, creating art. There is art in gardening, decorating, writing, setting a beautiful table, cooking a special meal, every activity we enjoy doing is creative, I think.

A new language is learned faster by hearing it than by reading it, language immersion is the most effective way to learn. Spending time in a foreign country where nobody understands you. A language is like music, it has sound and rhythm. When I was in Portugal and couldn’t understand the language but I loved to hear them speak, it sounded so soft and musical.

Ursamajor, yes no choice is the best thing when I am undecided.

I am not worried about not choosing what I will do the rest of my life because I will just continue with what I am doing, it’s what I love to do, so it must be where I belong.

ANNIE

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 2977
  • Downtown Gahanna
    • SeniorLearn
Have I mentioned that I am the greatest grandmother and great grandmother here in downtown Gahanna??? Just want to get that in my resume.Tee hee!
Bruce,
My sister Mary is buying your book today.  She doesn't know that I am paying for it.  She is also getting my copy for me.  I will loan it out to anyone in my hometown.  I love this book more, way more, than "What Color Is Your Parachute".  I took a class on the parachutr book and found out, at the time, that I knew very little of the working world but I sure knew how to take care of the needs of horses and how to ride them and how to attend horse shows that my daughter rode in.  I was also a super band parent for my sons.  Got into all that kind of stuff.  Heck, I even took flying lessons!
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri
Our Friends of the Library sponsors a Senior group each Friday for 10 months a year. Meets around 9:30 on Fridays in our little cafe. Sometimes we have speakers of various types, at least once a month, we chat and try to keep everyone up on senior matters in our area. Fun.

Steph, fantastic.  You are right in line to be a super catalyst-connector.  Can you be a Friday speaker or facilitator and tell everyone about SeniorLearn, about all the exciting things we do.  Wow, you are in position and you have clout.

mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
"Connector" is a good word..............in fact, i should have tho't of it because we call our dgt "the Connector," (must be genetic) she is forever telling the person she's talking to "Oh, you should talk to .........." Our family cook-outs get larger and larger as she invites many of those she's "connected" to come have ribs and chicken. There's even at least one couple who are now married to each other that she "connected."

Jean

brucefrankel

  • Posts: 37
You are all fantastic. I was feeling a little behind in my writing and a little overwhelmed by the research ahead. After reading through the most recent pack of comments, I feel newly energized. A little sleep helped, too.

Yes, I too, Alf and Ginny, am a big believer in deciding, doing, and the detouring, if necessary. As Robby would say, "Let the shadows fall behind."

Memory and age is an interesting puzzle. The truth is that the brain changes as we age and processing of memory slows down because of those changes. Studies have shown that what we don't fare all that much worse in terms of what is remembered, or how much. But the speed of recall is definitely effected. So, learning a language may highlight that when you want or need to recall verb tenses quickly. That said, there are promising developments in all of this. Michael Merzinich's PositScience claims that its brain training program can speed up central processing and has studies that support its claim. Other neuroscientists are dubious of such claims for brain training programs. It's plausible that people who use these programs (and I have tried) improve in the tasks they are repeatedly doing, but the generalized effect remains in doubt. Also in doubt is how long their effect lasts. Famously, learning and practicing juggling for just six weeks will alter the brain's structure and expand the amount of grey matter in the areas that process and store visual information. According to a study published in the journal Nature, a research team compared brain-imaging scans of nonjugglers before they learned to juggle and three months later and discovered increases in grey matter in certain areas of their brains. (Grey matter is responsible for high-level mental activities.) This indicates that, like muscles, the capacity of the brain itself can improve with training. But taking a break can cause shrinkage. Three months after the new jugglers stopped juggling grey matter had decreased again.

I suspect learning language is a little like this. Task repetition grows neural networks that help our memories, no matter what our age. And the better those networks get, or the more interconnected they are, the easier the task gets, or seems. Anxiety, of course, is destructive; so when people fear that they're not going to learn something, they're unwittingly making the learning more difficult. It's a conundrum.

I asked about the time people dedicate to learning a language because I hope to try to work learning language back into my life when I done with this project. I sometimes let the amount of time I know I need to commit stand in my way. But it's always worth remembering something Freud once said: if we spent 15 minutes a day learning about something, in 10 years we'd be experts. Again, though, I think it's a better idea not to focus on becoming an expert, but taking pleasure in what's learned in those 15 minutes.

Almost daily now, there are discoveries about the brain and memory. Quite recently, scientists in Cambridge, Mass., have found a protein in the brain that promotes memory and brain flexibilty; the enzymes, known as sertuins, have gained some fame for slowing aging; they get released when people are on survival diets. We also know, for instance, that exercise causes the brain to release BDNF (Brain Derived Neurotrophic Factor, if you must know), which stokes the brain for learning. Other scientists have recently come up with a new model for the overlapping quality of neural networks that support learning and memory. It is amazing how complex brain function -- and memory-- is. And that we are beginning to understand it.

On the inclination to art as we age: it seems obvious when you watch children at play, before they are required to do things, how native making art is to our makeup. It seems intrinsic to our natures. And perhaps, as we age, we feel inner dictates more strongly again and are less driven by external expectations. What do you think?

Thank you, AdoAnnie -- and your sister. I'm very grateful.

PedIn -- After I read your comment, I thought a bit about a notion I have about how closely related listening to others is to brain flexibility. I'm afraid our culture, in general, is suffering from a failure to listen. It's certainly true in politics where partisanship, posing, and polls are all that matter. I think we need to train ourselves -- and remind ourselves -- to be more effective listeners. Perhaps listening gets a bad rap: it's seen as passive. But listening well is an art and an assertive act. ...Also, I'm so happy these days when I hear people, like you and Steph talking about libraries. We all need to do everything we can to support our libraries. There's a terrible misconception abroad, that libraries are dinosaurs because we can search everything up online. But the opposite is true. Libraries are more important than ever. And tech-savvy librarians are more critically important than ever. (See Marilyn Johnson's very good: This Book is Overdue.)

Eloise, I think you're right about language and music and the importance of immersion.

To all, have a great day!

Frybabe

  • Posts: 9950
I see my post from last night never made it. hmmmmm!

Eloise said:
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A new language is learned faster by hearing it than by reading it, language immersion is the most effective way to learn.

I was thinking about enrolling in a Latin class at my local college this summer before my layoff. My local college doesn't list Latin classes anymore. Now that I will be doing accounting classes I don't think I will have time anyway until next year at least.

Has anyone tried those Rosetta Stone language programs? I was tempted to order the Latin language one, but they are sooooooo expensive (not as expensive as live classes, I expect). The other question I have about them is if they are classical Latin or medieval (ecclesiastical?) Latin.