So Happy Together ~ with Author Maryann McFadden ~ August 15

[serenesheila]

So Happy TOGETHER with Author Maryann McFadden

We are honored to have author Maryann McFadden join us for an in-depth conversation about her book! Join us today!

Discussion Schedule:

Aug15 to Aug 20--Read and discuss- Prologue thru Chap 12
Aug 21 thru Aug 26--Read & discuss-Chap 13 thru Chap 25
Aug 27 thru Sept 1-- R&D--Chap 26 thru 38
Sept 2 thru 5--R&D--Chap 39 thru Epilogue  [/font]


Discussion Leader: Adoannie

I really relate to Fanny.  Her knowledge that things will soon be very different for her, is something I agree with.  This year I turned 76 y/o.  My health has deteriorated.  I have trouble walking, and seldom leave home.  In addition, I have both cervical, and spinal stenosis.  So, I can get around my home, but cannot walk to shop.  As a result, My life has changed greatly, and it will never go back to the way it was.  Sigh..........

I feel annoyed with both Claire, and her mother, at times.  From what I am reading in our book, both women seem to be afraid to disagree with the men in their life.  One of the things that really annoyed me was Claire told Amy that she now keeps her counters  clear, as Rick suggested. So, the toaster was bhind a kitchen door.  It reminds me of my parents.  Dad dictated what my mother could, and could not do.  Neither Mother, or Dad realized that the world revolved around him.

Now, that I am rereading the first 25 years of our book, I am picking up on things that went right by me, the first time.

Sheila

[bellamarie]

Went to see the movie Eat Pray Love with Julia Roberts this past week end, and oh how it made me think of Claire, and her family, traveling to a new place for a new perspective on life.  Sometimes I think we get so caught up in living in the same place of comfort for so long we forget a change of scenery can give us the opportunity to see how we have been in a rut, or are ready for a change we weren't aware of. 

So... Maryanne, "The best is yet to come."  Well, I can't wait to go on to the next chapters then because I have had this sense that although we are going to experience some sad times ahead, I also have had this sense of hope that this family is going to figure out their own little places in life that will give them the peace and happiness they deserve.

Jean, from all our discussions of the many books we have shared I have gotten to feel like I know you well enough to know you are indeed a very strong, intelligent and decisive woman.  Traits I truly admire, so I can see why you see the women characters as passive.  Although I see your same traits in myself, I just feel like the women have lived their lives more for the love of their family, rather than for their own self.  Now, each of them are faced to have to make changes individually because "life" has caught up to them ...Amy now has a baby that she must raise, Fanny's health is failing her and she has to accept Joe is not as strong as he always has been, so he is not going to be there for her, and Claire has found a man she thinks can offer her all the things in life she has felt she wanted and can now have.  What's that saying my Mom used to say....."Shit or get off the pot."  LOL  I feel so sad for Joe knowing he can not be the man/husband he used to be and wants to be for Fanny, Claire, Amy and baby Rose.  It breaks my heart knowing life robs us of our faculties and strengths and leaves us depending on others to help us meet our every day needs.  How humbling and vulnerable it makes a person.  I remember when my Mom's health was failing her and all seven of us siblings had to take turns coming to care for her.  I was feeding her some soup for her dinner and she broke down and cried, and I asked her what was wrong and she said, "I never wanted to see the day come my kids would have to see me like this."  I told her, "You cared for each on of us and fed us when we were babies and when I had infectious hepatitis and so I am honored to be able to do this for you now."  I told her it's our turn to care for her.  She smiled and let me continue to feed her.  She has been gone for nearly 20 yrs now and I would give anything to have her with me.  When Fanny keeps remembering her mother and sister I can so relate to how you just can never let them go.


Ciao for now........I'm off to read the next chapters.

[ANNIE]

Sheila,
LIfe seems to come at us faster and harder the longer we live.  As if we are in a whirlwind. No wonder we sometimes forget what happened last week. Too many other thing have occurred in this week following.  Seems more complicated also. I hope your being here with us colors your life in a better way.  I, too, am rereading as I go and I also had forgotten or didn't see all that was happening so this is helping me appreciate the book even more.

Bellemere
I'm glad to hear that the movie "Eat,Pray and Love" was good.  Several of my friends have spoken of going to see it together.

Do you think women are more prone to still missing long lost relatives?? Or are we the only ones who still talk about them??

My mom has been gone fifteen years and my grandmother much longer than that but I still refer to them and talk to them now and then. And laugh when remembering them. Especially when I am with my sister since she and I were so close to mom. We always honor the ladybugs that travel by us as she was a lover of them.  Said they kept the bugs out of her garden.  Even had pillowslips with big ladybugs on them.  She was a trip!

My grandmother shared her family with me often when we were taking an afternoon rest.  I still remember the humor she brought to all the stories, and being a grandmother myself, I do the same thing.  There's a smooth continuity to the generations in our family.  Sharing the stories brings people alive who meant much to us. We honor them by remembering them.

Fanny's conversations are just gratifying to read. I don't think of her living in the past but bringing that past to the future.  We tell stories about our relatives especially to the children who have asked "Who is that pretty lady in the picture?".  Its the family history that's important.  My grans will even ask about a picture wanting to know if they look like that person or are  they like that person.

[ANNIE]

I just talked to my sister in NC about talking with our deceased grans and mom, and she says that she still talks to our mom.  Says she might do so because there is no one around to speak with at the time.  Or she says maybe its because maybe she doesn't want anyone to talk back to her at the time.  Hahahaha!

Sheila,
It takes guts to get old, doesn't it?  As my grandmother used to say,  
"after 70, if its not your a-- its your elbow!"

And my 80yr old neighbor says, " I hit 75 and my parts started dropping off!"

[bellamarie]

Annie, I love this.."I don't think of her living in the past but bringing that past to the future."

I so agree with everything you said.  I feel like my Mom really never left me in spirit.  I still hear her laughter, her stern voice, and know when she is guiding me or disapproving.  I got very close to my mother in law and her spirit remains with me and gives me calm and guidance also.

Before we go on to the next chapters assigned, I do want to ask what everyone feels about Liam coming to visit Amy?  I can tell Amy needs so badly to have some kind of contact with him.  Will he disappoint her?  Is she expecting and hoping for more than what he is capable of giving her?  How is this going to affect Claire?  Oh dear Fanny calling him a "bastard."  No love lost there.  LOL  I feel the tensions rising. 

One last comment about chapter 25, Fanny seems so upset with Joe for not telling her things, yet instead of going to him and just asking she is holding silent resentment and hurt.  After all their years together and her knowing about Ava, why NOW does it seem to really rankle her?  What's that old adage, "Let dead dogs lie."  What difference would any of it matter now in the twilight years of their lives?  She chose to stay silent all these years and even now.  I'm just trying to figure out how I feel about this.  What is the point of our dear author writing this into the storyline?  Maryanne, can you help me out here?

[MaryannMcFadden]

What wonderful insights I'm reading in your posts. And I, too, love Bellamarie's line about Fanny bringing the past into the present, beautifully said. My mother and grandmother shared many stories, and maybe that's where I get so many ideas. I hope I do as good a job with my own grandchildren. Because we don't want them to forget, or to never even know, those who came before.

Ok, Bellamarie, your question about why doesn't Fanny just ask Joe about Ava. While this is something that has simmered beneath the surface over the years, it has now flared since they are where he met this woman 50 years ago. Although Fanny wants to know, it's her pride that  keeps her from insisting. And also, a bit of fear--what will she really find out? 

There's is an old fashioned marriage, and I the lines of communication are different than what we see today.

[serenesheila]

Fanny, is still on my mind.  Especially, the fact that she tried to learn to drive, twice.  Then she gave up.  Now, she is considering learning to drive, again.  How sad, that she does not know how to drive.

This situation really touches me.  My maternal grandmother drove everywheree.  In contrast, my paternal grandmother never drove.  She tried to learn, twice, as did Fanny.  Both times she tried, she ended up in a ditch.  So, she gave up.

When personal computers became available, I was determined to learn to use one.  I bought my first PC, and then took several courses at Senior Net.  My grandmother not being able to drive, made me learn as much as I could about computer use.  I did not want to be left out, of the newest technology.

Sheila

[mrssherlock]

Ironic, the "sandwich generation". When my son was in pre-school, circa 1960, it was said that we were an in-between generation.  Raised in a time when children were supposed to be seen and not heard we were raising children who were being allowed to be very expressive, thanks to Dr Spock and psychological research (can't remember the name of the psychologist.)   It's never been our turn,has it?

[mabel1015j]

OR, Jackie -  we could say we've lived thru very interesting times w/ so many changes - wow, is that an understatement? I always tho't my parents and their siblings lived thru the most amazing time, from pre-automobile to men on the moon. But, things have changed much more quickly thru our lives and we've had to deal - or enjoy - w/ those changes. My mother died in 1985 and i just kept thinking all thru the Bill and Monica fiasco - i'm so glad my mother is not alive to hear this, she would have died of embarrassment if she were...........lol. I see Victoria Secret magazines and think this would have been semi-porn in the 50's and under some teen-age boy's mattress. I think we have mostly dealt very well w/ the changes from the 40's to the 2010's, even tho in the moment it seemed pretty stressful............thinking of the difference between when Claire was pregnant and now when Amy is pregnant - those poor girls pre 1970's? who were pregnant and not married, and now it seems so commonplace that nobody pays much attention - altho i always think they don't realize how hard it will be to raise a child alone..................jean

[mrssherlock]

I have a secret vice, I like to browse wedding gowns, comparing them to my own, heavy satin with lace over, off the shoulder, full skirt, not floor length.  One site I found with 70% off prices featured WDs for pregnant brides! My sister had a terrible time trying to find  one for her daughter who was secretly married but hadn't told her father so he picked up the tab for the full show, church wedding, country club reception.  It took forever to find a dress for a five-month PG bride.

[mabel1015j]

I loved those "cocktail" length wedding dresses, wonder why they don't do them anymore? Guess they are not "ballgown" enough for today's big shindigs...............jean

[mrssherlock]

In the Milestones in the paper the other day was a picture of a bride wearing a dress that looked like a sister to mine.

[serenesheila]

ANNIE, I agree.  Growing old is not for sissies.  I have always been grateful to have grown up with both grandparents, and two great grans.  None of them bemoaned their advancing ages.  They were wonderful role models for me.  I actually looked forward to growing old.  LOL

I also agree about Fanny's unwillingness to just directly ask Joe, about Ava.  Both her unwillingness to confront Joe, directly, and Claire's unwillingness to disagree with Rick, frustrates me.

Amy's wanting to connect with Liam, is understandable.  However, I will be greatly surprised if Liam actually turns up.  His lack of contact during her childhood, doesn't bode well for him being part of Amy's life.

Sheila

[bellamarie]

Well, not to rush ahead, but....as I expected our dear John, no pun intended has reared his head in Cape Cod.  Now I have a bit of a theory and may find I'm reaching a bit too far here, but...it can NOT be coincidences that John Poole has come into Claire's life, and has been living in Cape Cod.  I sense he played a role in Claire getting the spot in the photography class.  Who is he really?  He seems to also want to tell Claire how she feels and thinks, yet then pulls back.  Does he have romantic feelings for her, or is it Claire that has the feelings?  Could he be Joe's long lost son by Ava and he has come to look them up?  Nah....I must be tired and reaching a bit out there.  lolol  

So, Fanny finally confronts Joe on his secret.  I was so sure Joe loved Fanny and only Fanny all these years of their marriage and am so happy to hear him say it out loud for her to hear.  I just hate miscommunication or shall I say lack there of.  Our minds can really imagine things and get us believing the unthinkable when we choose to stay silent when troubled with something.  I am all about just confronting issues head on.  Fanny a flirt...oh my, where is this headed?  

As much as I would like to take credit for a brilliant thought, I must clarify it was Annie not I who said about Fanny, "I don't think of her living in the past but bringing that past to the future."  
I was commenting on how much I loved it.  

I have to tell you all my soon to be 8 yr old granddaughter came in from school today and said, "Nonnie, I learned in school today that I have genes in me that was passed down from my Mom, Dad and you and that is why my eyes are the same color as my Mom's and why everyone always tells me I look like you."  I smiled so big and said, "That is true, you have genes passed down to you from me and Papa and my Mom and Dad, and his Mom and Dad and all the generations before them."  She was so excited, and it made me so very happy that she was beginning to realize how we are all attached biologically.  Now isn't that a hoot, while reading this book Amy and Fanny are trying to keep the recipes from generations past alive because its important to them, and I get to experience my sweet little Avery discuss our genes.  Wow, that made my day!

I've got a thought or two about Fanny keeping things from Claire and Claire keeping things from Fanny that will directly affect each of them. Is it right/fair for family members to ask other family members to keep things from their loved ones?  Gotta run for now...Ciao~

[ANNIE]

I like the question that Bellamarie poses.
 "I've got a thought or two about Fanny keeping things from Claire and Claire keeping things from Fanny that will directly affect each of them. Is it right/fair for family members to ask other family members to keep things from their loved ones?"
Seems to me that this sort of thing goes on in all families.  I am not sure what it is.  Does Fanny not want to hurt Joe or is she afraid that her long life with him will fall apart?

Its as though she has lived a lie throughout her whole life.  Not asking Joe what's up with you anyway??  Not confronting him long ago about this seemingly long lost love of his.  I can't quite get my thoughts around almost having been married 50 yrs and never bringing up what she heard at her own wedding.  But, they seem to have lived a happy life until their son,  Eugene left home over his long hair that his father hated.  

When our oldest son, another Eugene, let his hair grow long in the early 70's, it caused grief in our household, believe me. My DH felt the same as Joe does in our story and while I didn't like the style, I kept saying to people who mentioned the length of his hair,  "Doesn't matter how long Gene's hair is, he is still the person we love inside".  And that was what was important to me.

Well, I love the appearance of Dominic Fortunato on the scene.  He brings a ray of sunshine into Amy and Frannie's lives.  And his interest in Frannie's recipes is just too sweet.  I love Italian men, who at age 75 or 80 still like the ladies and let them know it too.  Is Frannie's life going to change in the next few chapters ?

Its time read Chapters 26 thru 38 for the next 5 days

as we follow John Poole's appearance back in Cape Cod and Joe's quest for Ava and why he is still wondering about the possibility of his having a child he doesn't know. 

I am going be out of town for the next 4 days and I know when I get back we will have discovered many things about the characters.  Some will surprise us and some will make us say "told you so"!  I will try to get online but we are leaving for the mountains of West Virginia and where wifi may not exist due to those same mountains.

[bellamarie]

Annie, have a great time in the  mountains, and I hope you have a connection, but if not, you can catch up when you return.  I have to say the long hair thing is funny and I can't imagine a son leaving home because his father couldn't accept his hair style.  I remember when my son Jeremy was in high school and came home one day totally bald!  I thought I would faint, he truly looked like a cancer patient who had lost all his hair from chemo.  My older sister was visiting and she looked at me and said, "Oh my gosh what do you think of that."  I said, "There are people who has to be bald and I can't imagine him wanting to be bald at his age", then I looked at him, smiled and said, I bet you are going to live to regret that when the snow falls." (which was going to be sooner than his hair would have the chance to grow out.)  I myself went through the era of long haired guys and loved their hair, but when it came to choosing a guy to marry, he had to be more conservative.  Needless to say, my son is now in his thirties and still likes his hair shaved, just not bald.  LOL  He and I have always been extremely close and it was important for him to know his hair did not make the person he was.  I just joked about it and prayed it would grow back quickly.

I too like Dominic, I think its so sweet of him to show so much interest in Fannie's recipes, and the flirting seems harmless at their age, although with Joe having the health problems to deal with it could cause him alot of mental stress to think a more healthier man is showing attention and affection to his Fannie.

Family secrets always have a way of coming out and causing such hurt to those who were kept in the dark.  I am a very open and honest person and always expect the same from my loved ones.  I tell them there is nothing we can't handle as long as we know what he are dealing with.  My in-laws have kept secrets the entire forty years I have been in this family and I have seen how it only damages their relationships not only with each other and their own children who they have taught to do the same, but now their grandchildren are living the same pattern of hiding important things.  When I find someone close to me has kept things from me I tend to not trust them fully.  I feel Claire and Fannie should be talking to each other regardless of their loyalty and sworn to confidentiality.  These are issues that could help this family if they were more open with each other.  As much as they all love each other, there seems to be a lack of trust in this family.  Its so sad, because they are wasting precious time they could be sharing and solving some of these issues.  God knows it's a heavy burden to carry, when its to remain a secret.  Claire just seems so out of the loop of her family.  Not to have even as so much as fed baby Rose since they got to the Cape shows how she has pretty much brought them all there so she would not feel guilty leaving them behind, yet she has delved into the photography class and left them all to fend for themselves.  Where is her happy medium in life, her balance?  Her character seems to be either all in or all out.  Maybe all will be revealed as Annie and Maryann suggested in the coming chapters. 

Ciao for now.............
 

[ginny]

Well this is quite a book, isn't it? I've finished our current section and almost feel, with all the divergent plot lines I need a play card to keep each character straight, but they're all interesting I think.

Bellamarie, DO family secrets always come out? I wonder.  IS there anybody anywhere  without one secret? Again I wonder.

Here's Joe, trying to assuage his guilt, to me guilt seems to be the dominating force in this section, and not tell Fanny about Ava, or burden her further.

Here's Fanny thinking that Joe has loved another woman all their married life and going off to lunch with Dominick.

Here's Claire whose relationship with Rick is gone (so far, why am I not surprised) but I thought Rick made some good points, what did you think about  Rick's reasons for the break up? I thought he made sense, actually.

"There was no more 'we.'" (Chapter 35). Has there ever been a "we?" Even in the plans for the house?

"Inevitably there would come a day  her parents wouldn't be here anymore. Where would she be then? All alone."

Enter John Poole.

What do you all think of Claire now? Kind of reminds me of that song "left a good job in the city...working for the man every night and day..." Proud Mary.

She had a job which she was going to quit to marry Rick and they were going to live in the desert house but travel. He's not close to his family, she is.....is she close to hers?

So now even tho she could get a job teaching possibly she may try her hand at free lance photography...er.....ok what do you think of Claire at this point?

I wonder why she couldn't be self sufficient without A MAN. I may find out at the end of the book. I'm pretty sure she can't be without a job. I'm a little disappointed in her for some reason, hard to put a finger on it.

I'm going to go out on a limb and risk shrieks of disbelief when I say I'm also  disappointed in Fanny. In her having lunch or whatever it was with Dominick. Her wondering what she's doing etc., and why he never asks about a husband (duh) and why she never mentions Joe (why not?) and say I'm disappointed in her. I understand the need for new things, I am impressed with her getting Amy a job and working on the old recipes, and she's right, peasant food is hot now, but pedicabs and massages and Buddhism  are one thing, lunch with Dominick is another.

"A new Fanny seemed to be emerging." (Chapter38). What do you think of the "new Fanny?" Do you admire her, and cheer her on.... or?

And now we have Liam the no show, Amy's understanding that Claire did a lot for her, and Jared on the scene.

I was not understanding this bit from Amy: "I don't think  Rose and I can make it on ur own. And if there's a custody fight, I'll lose." (Chapter 35)

??  I don't know much about how the law works, but I'm not sure that any court would remove a baby in this situation from its mother, she's not doing drugs or harming the baby: do any of you have any experience in this area?

I liked the shack stuff, left over from WWII, is that part true? It's interesting , and I enjoyed the whale stuff too, having just last night finished one of Peter Benchley's books, Beast, I feel immersed in the sea, hahaha,  but we're about to come to the end of the book and the female characters are all changing. Liam has not. Why did he decide not to come?  Rick has not. Both are shown here as selfish, are they? The men are not changing. The women are.

Do you feel the change shown here is for the good? Who I keep wondering is the strongest character in the book so far?

[mabel1015j]

I love the surprises that pop up every now and then - Claire taking everybody to the Cape; Dominic; John showing up; Rose's father showing up - life does happen w/ these unplanned events, doesn't it? I think i've been reading too many predicatable stories lately, so i've loved each surprise in this book.

I'm not surprised at Fanny having lunch w/ Dominc, she needs a little personal approval and admiration. I don't like that she's hanging on to this inferiority feeling that Joe had a great love BEFORE they were married. That kind of jealousy can ruin a relationship, altho she seems to have kept it in check and has only hurt herself all these yrs worrying about some other love of Joe's. But Joe is such a cold fish, it must feel very warm and nice to have some one think you are nice, even wonderful in your later yrs. And she's just having lunch, i say "enjoy," just like she's enjoying the massages and the Buddhism. After all she assumes she's headed back to that little tiny apartment/prison in NJ. A little joy can't hurt. And if everybody ends up staying on the Cape, Fanny will have a friend - just because he's a man, doesn't mean they can't be friends. I like that Fanny is trying all those new things. She could just be sitting in a rocking chair pouting.

I think Rick was open and honest and did just what he should have knowing he was going to be suffocating in this family. Better to do it now and not wait til after they are married.

I can understand Claire panicing about a job. If this is "present day" teacher jobs are not as easy to come by as they used to be. Photography? Seems a little iffy too, but it's a good chance to check it out. If i were in her shoes, i'd be scared.

Good song lyrics choice, Ginny...........

I don't think Amy is thinking clearly either Ginny, but i can see her going to the worse case scenario about Rose's custody. I don't think that Rose would be taken from this home, but Amy may not have enough experience to realize that. .................. jean

[Finnabair]

Ginny said, "The men are not changing. The women are."

When my husband and I were in marriage counseling, I went part of the time by myself.  The counselor told me that men don't change to make a marriage work, that women do.  It was a MALE counselor.

Amy's fear that she would lose custody is simply from her inexperience and fear.  Because she has multi-generational support, I doubt a judge would take Rose away.

Rick - I don't think there ever was a "we" in his mind.  There was HIM with the orbiting satellite of Claire.

 

[bellamarie]

Ginny

...."Bellamarie, DO family secrets always come out? I wonder.  IS there anybody anywhere  without one secret? Again I wonder."

Well, as difficult as it may seem, I don't have any secrets I keep from my husband.  I am and always have been an open book so to say.  I get disappointed plenty expecting others to be the same.  But I have learned in life everyone is different.  So now that you have asked, maybe all family secrets don't come out, maybe that's a cliche.  I know when my grandmother died and we had distant family members visit I overheard my mother say to her cousin something to the effect he needs to keep his mouth shut because she did not want her kids to know some things that were in the past.  I never asked her even though I was a married adult at the time because I felt too embarrassed I overheard them arguing.  I did realize after my mother passed away that my older sisters knew far more than I ever did about alot of things.  I always figured like the saying goes, "What you don't know, can't hurt you."  Hmmm...is that true?

I share your disappointment in Claire.  Since she has gone to the Cape she just seems all over the place in her behavior.  I haven't finished this week's assigned pages so I will hold my comments til I do. 

Jean, I'm not so sure I have seen too many surprises.  This has been a bit predictable for me.  Like I said I've read too many Danielle Steele books and watch soap operas.  LOLOL My husband tells me all the time I need to write for the soaps because I have it all figured out way before it actually happens.  Now please do not take this as any type of criticism to the author, Maryann, I think early on you could tell I was figuring these characters out.  LOL 

Okay gotta go to bed, I will check back after I finish the assigned pages for the week.  Ciao~

[ginny]

This is what is SO interesting in reading and daring to talk about the issues which come up in a book with other people. It's such an enriching experience, and the wider the experience or range from everybody the richer it gets.

Because we all come at a book from our own backgrounds, experiences, points of view,  and dare I say prejudices.

One of my total big issues, prejudices,  is Why Do I Think I'm Nothing Without a Man? WHY does the heroine always have to have a man? Maybe that's one thing that irritates me about Fanny and Dominick. Just once I'd like to see one manage on her own. I have not read to the end, MAYBE just once this is it.

I admit I come to this strange idea without the benefit of that experience, I've been married 44 years.  Our heroine here is in her mid 40's, that's pretty young. So I think it's time for me to stop trying to make the characters bend to my OWN desires and pay attention to what THEY want.

If I can figure out what that is.

Mabel (Jean): I'm not surprised at Fanny having lunch w/ Dominc, she needs a little personal approval and admiration. I don't like that she's hanging on to this inferiority feeling that Joe had a great love BEFORE they were married. That kind of jealousy can ruin a relationship, altho she seems to have kept it in check and has only hurt herself all these yrs worrying about some other love of Joe's.

Jealousy is truly something, isn't it? What sparks it, do you think, in any life? She has hurt herself all these years, for sure. I'm not sure from what I've seen so far (and I did peek and see Joe and Ava together coming up) but I'm not sure that it's love driving HIM but guilt. I may be wrong, and often am, but that's what it looks like to me.

Maybe it's the idea not that he "loves" somebody else but that she thinks he longs for the ideal of that other person. I think it's guilt, which is a lot more powerful than love sometimes, or is it?

I can understand Claire panicing about a job. If this is "present day" teacher jobs are not as easy to come by as they used to be. Photography? Seems a little iffy too, but it's a good chance to check it out. If i were in her shoes, i'd be scared.

Well if she's in her mid 40s with a daughter and granddaughter to support she needs a job.

Finnabar, what an interesting thing!

When my husband and I were in marriage counseling, I went part of the time by myself.  The counselor told me that men don't change to make a marriage work, that women do.  It was a MALE counselor

I wonder why this is, what it says about men and women?

Rick - I don't think there ever was a "we" in his mind.  There was HIM with the orbiting satellite of Claire.

It's interesting what constitutes "we" with any of the characters, actually.

Bella, not from the husband so much but here you've put your finger on it:

I know when my grandmother died and we had distant family members visit I overheard my mother say to her cousin something to the effect he needs to keep his mouth shut because she did not want her kids to know some things that were in the past.

And one wonders:  why should they? I'm willing to bet almost everybody has something in their past they might not want their grandchildren to remember them by.

For some reason I thought our protagonist was older.  Her actual age puts a new light to me on her behavior, heck I've got children her age.


I always like to try to draw back and look at the structure of any book. I am going to be interested in what we think the climax of the book is because it will reveal, to me, anyway, a lot of answers. Do we agree the narrator is the Omniscient Third Person? We see in Fanny's mind, in Claire's, not in Rick's tho or John's. We don't see in Joe's. Do we see in Amy's?


Which character, at this point, do you all see as the strongest?

 

[Finnabair]

I think Claire is coping the best she can, given her personality and the incredible number of psychological hits and life changes she is going through.  Yes, she's erratic.  I'm erratic sometimes, too!

[MaryannMcFadden]

Well, I've been absent a few days, and what alot has gone on! I love the back and forth here, truly. And I take nothing as criticism. Live discussions mean you've gotten the readers thinking and talking, and engaged, so that's a good thing. I've been buried in revisions for my newest book, and like a triage nurse in the ER, only doing what I absolutely must as I try to finish. So here I am again, taking a break from that!

I don't fault Claire for taking the time to do what she needs to do in order to get the most out of this class. Let's face it, she gave it up once, and almost did again, and the fact that she's stepped back has actually fostered some of these changes. When she's there, she's taking care of everyone and making things easier, but not there, Fanny and Amy have bonded again, and they both have room to explore and grow. As well, Claire does too.

Does Claire really think she needs a man to be happy? I don't think so. She found love, unexpectedly, at middle age, when she'd given up. Do you remember the early stages of love? It's intoxicating. You feel so alive. And yes, you overlook some of the little, nagging things, because you so want it to work. So of course she's disappointed, who wouldn't be? Now she's dedicating herself to her work, her art, which is really her passion now. And I think we all need a passion, that one thing that is truly our own, because we must be satisfied with ourselves first.

Dominick...love him! I had many older Italian uncles, and there were several Dominicks. Fortunato is my own grandmother's maiden name, so it was kind of neat for me to integrate some of our heritage here. The restaurant is real--but it's Fanizzi's By the Sea, right on the water in Provincetown. But there isn't a Dominick, he's truly fiction.

I simply love that this older woman, who thought her life was basically done, is reaching to try new things. She is willing to take chances, and while things may seem a bit inappropriate with them, she's dabbling in something that she's recognizing is dangerous. But what will she do?

The dune shacks really do exist, though they are not really part of an arts program. They are issued by lottery to artists and writers, and tough to get into. But they are incredible, and remote, and I so wanted to put them in the story.

Back soon

[Lucylibr]

Rick reveals his lack of real regard for Claire when he keeps calling her "Babe."  To me that seems negative and not a term of endearment and respect. He is pining for Claire, at least Abbie thinks that, and I am afraid Claire is not rid of him yet. (pp. 305-306)

I agree with Ginny that going to lunch with Dominick is a mistake for Fanny. I have been placed in these tense, phony situations many times, and I don't like them. People think that no matter how old you are having a mate is the answer, and it's simply not true for many people.

[mabel1015j]

One of my total big issues, prejudices,  is Why Do I Think I'm Nothing Without a Man? WHY does the heroine always have to have a man? Maybe that's one thing that irritates me about Fanny and Dominick. Just once I'd like to see one manage on her own. I have not read to the end, MAYBE just once this is it.

I've been thinking the same thing, Ginny, probably because i've been reading four books where everyone has too "couple up" and it's always in the thinking of the women, not in the minds of the men, so much. I had the exact same tho't of "could a book be written where the woman fends very nicely by herself, thinking of the men in the story as friends/companions,  not mates!" I know sev'l women who are so much happier in the single state then they were when married - like Ginny i to have been married for 4o-something yrs - full disclosure - but my single friends are fending quite nicely.  As there are more and more single women i see married couple being more willing to include them in social situations, so they are not as isolated as they might have been a few decades ago.

Why men change less than women? Two tho'ts come to mind: men have had less to loose (physically/economically)  if the marriage doesn't work - not quite so true in todays' world since women are making better money and are in better jobs than previously, but still true in most families;  and two - men are often oblivious to the fact that the marriage is not working for the wife. I've known more than one man who was startled by the fact when his wife moved out, or asked for a divorce. There may be a third reason - women are sometimes less comfortable w/ conflict in the family, so we work to keep things calm, so we feel more comfortable and we work at keeping the children comfortable, emotionally as well as physically.

Jealousy? I think it is a symptom of the person's lack of self-esteem, or at least feeling insecure in the relationship. Not knowing how to cope w/ their own feelings, the jealous person often lashes out, accusing the other person in the relationship of "cheating," or questioning their behavior. I've tried to tell young people, "that doesn't work the way you are expecting it to, if you think accusing is going to make the person happy that you're jealous, or make them change their behavior. If there is a rational discussion about how the behavior effects the jealous person, that might work, particularly if the couple really cares about each other. If they weren't misbehaving, accusing just creates resentment that they aren't trusted." Which is not good for the relationship. Of course, it's often much more complicated than that - we probably need Robby to enlighten us.............lol....................jean

[pedln]

I feel Claire and Fannie should be talking to each other regardless of their loyalty and sworn to confidentiality. .   .  ….  .   .  . Claire just seems so out of the loop of her family.  Not to have even as so much as fed baby Rose since they got to the Cape shows how she has pretty much brought them all there so she would not feel guilty leaving them behind, yet she has delved into the photography class and left them all to fend for themselves.  ..    ..   ..   Where is her happy medium in life, her balance?

I agree that Claire might not have a lot of balance in her life, but she’s really taken on a lot and I’m glad to see that she’s letting Fanny and Amy take on more responsibility in the household matters.  They’re perfectly capable of feeding and caring for the baby and for cooking for the family.  Claire has to put forth most of her efforts towards the workshop.  That’s why they ALL are there.  And Claire didn’t expect to be chasing all over trying to solve Joe’s problem, but she’s doing it.

I think Fanny is a bit of a whiner, or is at least having her own little pity party. I don’t see any warmth between Joe and Fanny, but it’s not all Joe’s fault.  Why isn’t she sitting with him on the patio, in the sun.  Don’t they ever talk?  And now, after complaining about his constant TV watching, you’d think that she would be overjoyed that he’s found a temporary job that  he’s excited about.  But no, she thinks it’s a joke.  The man is sick, has a progressive, ultimately terminal illness.  Where's the compassion?

Rick would probably win the prize for being most self-centered, but he’s also probably one of the more realistic members of the crew.

[bellamarie]

Ginny, you peeked and shared, lol  I won't repeat it, but now I can't wait to read on because I truly didn't think it would happen.  Enough on that til we get to it.

Okay, so I just finished reading through chapter 38, hmmmm...I have mixed feelings about Claire and Fanny.  I am very impressed with the growth and maturity in Amy.  Gosh I sure did feel sad for Jared.  He seems like someone who truly cared for Amy and wants to be a part of baby Rose's life.  I realize Amy, Claire and even Fanny have issues with trusting men, but its so unfair Jared was not informed.  I am anxious to see where Amy and Jared end up.

Now, as I/we all expected, Rick was truthful enough to end the engagement because he could clearly see he would NEVER come first in Claire's life.  Afterall, doesn't everyone want to be number one?  He would have come down the pecking order as number 4 or 5 if on the radar at all.  He admits to what he is capable of and Claire is not able to admit even to herself that she is not ready to committ to a man.  I think Claire was in love with Rick for what she saw as a life she longed for.  Reality bites as the saying goes. 

Now for Fanny, I am so confused with her character.  While I don't begrudge her of a friendship with another man, what is going on with her?  Joe has not been unfaithful to her.  She is as much to blame as he is for the the non speaking in their marriage.  That does not give her the right to go out pursuing Dominic.  I am happy she is trying new things in her life, I realize she has allowed herself to be limited in experiencing life, but those were her choices.  So what now?  Does she throw away 40 yrs of her marriage? 

I agree with Andy, where is her compassion for her sick husband?  How dare she just sit on the couch and watch him frozen in step and not help him.  That just really upset me.  I admire the fact Joe has found something to keep him busy.  Where is the affection?  I grew up in a home with no affection displayed and never heard the words, "I love you."  I could relate when Claire mentions she and her brother felt the love even though it was not spoken from their father.  I married a man who grew up with hugs, I love yous, and displays of affection and when he expressed them to me at first I was so uncomfortable to reciprocate because it was so unfamiliar to me.  In time he actually got my Mom and sisters to hug and say I love you  I remember my Mom saying to me, "Joe sure is a hugger and kisser."  LOL  I said, "Yep and he is going to make sure everyone else is too."  To this very day when I wake up in the morning he has to hug and kiss me and say I love you.  Wow what a treasure and blessing I found.  We hug and kiss and show affection to our daughter and sons and grandkids everytime we see each other. 

Maryann, thank you for popping in and giving us some insight into where your thoughts are here: 

I don't fault Claire for taking the time to do what she needs to do in order to get the most out of this class. Let's face it, she gave it up once, and almost did again, and the fact that she's stepped back has actually fostered some of these changes. When she's there, she's taking care of everyone and making things easier, but not there, Fanny and Amy have bonded again, and they both have room to explore and grow.

I agree, when Claire is around, she takes over and does not really allow any of them to solve or attempt to do things.  That is the one thing Rick could clearly see.  Good or bad or neither, it is the personality this character has.  As for does she think she NEEDS a man, I don't see that she does, I think like every person man or woman when you glance into your future and see the golden years ahead, you would like to see yourself sharing them with someone.  Most people don't want to find themselves alone as they get to retirement.  Does this mean you HAVE to have a partner, of course not, and there are some women and men who prefer and are happy without a partner, but...it seems our Claire has shown us through her thoughts that she would like to have someone to grow old with and share her life with once her parents are no longer here and Amy has gone on with her life.  I don't think we have to question her strength's because she steps up to the plate each and every time its necessary and sometimes when its not.  We have to keep in mind Claire hasn't had the opportunity to experience a healthy, loving lasting relationship with a man, so I can appreciate her still wanting love in her life.  I say go for it...and I have a feeling it's John Poole, although he seems a bit boring for me.  LOL 
Ciao for now...

[Finnabair]

My mother loved my dad very deeply.  However, she really blossomed after he died.  She was 55 years old.  She became a sculptor and a poet.  She was the trustee for a large financial trust set up by her father, and thereby became a hugely successful business woman.

She never expressed an interest in another man or appeared to have any significant others in her life.  She was complete and happy unto herself.

I miss her, although we had a lot of conflicts over the years.  I was very angry with her for not taking care of herself physically, and that is what ultimately killed her.  After her first mild stroke, we got along great for the last four months of her life.  I moved to her house, and made sure she was well taken care of while at the skilled nursing centers and at the assisted living residence.

When she passed, I got to the assisted living center within 30 minutes, and I am absolutely convinced that although her body had failed, her spirit was still in the room waiting for me. 

The differences between Mom and Fanny are that Fanny doesn't feel like she EVER had her husband's full attention and she never had an opportunity for growth outside of being wife/mom.

[ANNIE]

Finnabar,

Ginny said, "The men are not changing. The women aren't."  And then you said,

"When my husband and I were in marriage counseling, I went part of the time by myself.  The counselor told me that men don't change to make a marriage work, that women do.  It was a MALE counselor."

Your post make me sit up and squawk! Sounded just like an old hen!    Men don't change to make a marriage work, but women do??? Whoa!
What a disappointment that must have been.  I always thought that counseling would help a couple to work together on their marriage problems.

And I like your take on Rick.   In his own little world with Claire as a satellite  Yes that fits their situation!

I am not confused about Fanny's feelings about her interest in Dominick.  After all, she has stayed faithful to Joe forever (50 years, maybe?) and carried the huge stone of jealousy over and around for their their whole married life.  And suddenly, another man seems interested in her, at the age of 77!  What a nice surprise!  With Joe seeming such a cold fish here, another man's interest has certainly warmed her up.  What will she do in the end?

I can't marry Joe's coldness with a man who has always done his duty in this marriage.  Why do women have to search out the man's true feelings?? Why can't the man be confused once in awhile?  Why don't they do the searching?  I know the answer to those questions but its not printable here!!

So are we ready to go on with this story? 
This week we will start with
Chap 39 and sail through to the end.  Lets see what our characters have decided to do with their lives.  Or what life has handed them.

[mabel1015j]

I finished the book last night and my book is upstairs, so i don't know what info is in which chapters. So, I'll just feed off your comments so i don't give away too much to those of you who haven't finished.

MaryAnn wrote some great characters, if my response to them is any indication..........at one point or another i wanted to just smack each one of them!! (Except for John, Libby and Dominic, oh, and Jared, almost forgot him.)  I'm glad i didn't live w/ any of the rest of them! Joe's John Wayne/Gary Cooper/ silent/stoic man attitude was so over the top. I know he had no family and didn't live in an environment that encouraged talking and feeling in his young yrs, but I so wanted to smack him across the back of the head and say "get over it!" He surely had seen other men behaving better thru his 8 decades and he was smart - couldn't he learn by observation? Of course, as Ginny said (some) men never change. That's why they need a smack on the head - or whatever Annie wants to say to them.............LOL............

I also am amazed at Fanny's self-centerness and her none response to Joe's illness. I understand she is so angry at what she thinks he has done, but after you've lived w/ a person for 50 yrs, no matter how angry you are, isn't there some empathy for what he might be feeling. Altho, i must admit that there were some days when my husband was still smoking, that i tho't if he got sick from smoking, i was not going to be empathetic - he was a microbiologist!!! He knew full well what he was doing to his lungs and other body parts. He had tried sev'l times, but did not succeed for longer than a couple months. After his best friend and cousin got lung cancer, and my friend  told him about Chantix, he finally succeeded. That was a cause and effect lack of empathy however, so i don't equate it exactly w/ Fanny's attitude.

I too like Amy's growth, Fanny's trying new things, and Claire taking some time for herself.................jean

[MaryannMcFadden]

Oh, some good feisty comments here!
Your takes on Claire are varied, and as I pointed out before, she's never really had a guy in her life for very long, and she survived quite nicely. But she's had a taste of what could be, and who could blame her for wanting to pursue that. That doesn't mean she NEEDS a man to be happy. But let's face it, love is wonderful, and it brings an added dimension to life, and if it's there to be reached for, I can't imagine anyone turning away. Also, she wonders if she's been single so long, that perhaps she's not being fair to Rick, who was, after all, about to become her husband. Anyway, food for thought!

Yes, Fanny does seem a bit angry. Can you blame her? She's been kept in the dark for so long about Ava, and these drives they take, how could she not be a bit resentful? But Fanny, to me, is my favorite kind of character, human, flawed, a good person perhaps doing not so good things, because she's confused and grasping, and wondering about the short rest of her life. She wants to live as much as she can, and who can blame her? Is it that SHE needs a man? I don't think so. Is it that she wants to experience something, feeling special, and loved? Yes, of course.

Let's face it, books would be boring if people were perfect LOL! I'm glad you're finding lots of imperfections!

[bellamarie]

Annie

.."I am not confused about Fanny's feelings about her interest in Dominick.  After all, she has stayed faithful to Joe forever (50 years, maybe?) and carried the huge stone of jealousy over and around for their their whole married life.  And suddenly, another man seems interested in her, at the age of 77!  What a nice surprise!  With Joe seeming such a cold fish here, another man's interest has certainly warmed her up.  What will she do in the end?"

Oh dear with ALL due respect I can not disagree with you more.  She has played as much a part in the silence as Joe has throughout this marriage.  Joe has also been faithful to her.  We don't get a pass to go off and flirt and look for more affection and excitement no matter what age we are or how much time we have left in life when we are married.  A couple who takes the vows when they get married are committing to being faithful!  What Fanny is doing is wrong NO matter what her reasons are.  Now that I got that out, I will say I have No real likeness for Joe.  He owed it to Ava and to Fanny to do the right thing back years ago and acknowledge his part in the relationship.  Claire has been an enabler to her father's secrets hurting her mother and I am very disappointed in her behavior.  Fanny is angry and jealous which is causing her to go outside her marriage to look for more.  Shame on her...she should be as willing to fix her marriage as she is willing to help Claire and Amy find and have happiness.  In my own personal opinion Fanny has brought her anger and jealousy on herself.  She has known this secret for all these years and stewed about it and done nothing.  Now she continues to remain silent knowing Claire is helping her father and lieing straight to her face about where she takes her father.  Lies, lies and more lies between all three of them.  Sorry but they have lost my respect.

Maryann, yes your characters have been as human as possible with all their flaws.  I have loved them and been so frustrated with Claire and Fanny throughout the book.  Rick even though he is selfish has the decency to be honest and  admit he is not cut out to be a part of this family. 

Jean, as far as slapping someone upside the head, I say we line them all up and give them a good slap...lololol  Okay I need to go finish the ending chapters to see how this mess turns out.
Ciao for now.....

[bellamarie]

Maryann...."But let's face it, love is wonderful, and it brings an added dimension to life, and if it's there to be reached for, I can't imagine anyone turning away."


I LOVE this!  I agree, no one should turn away from love if they are fortunate enough to find it.

[CallieOK]

I'm not sure exactly why, but these recent comments (with which I agree) reminded me of something I read in a non-fiction book.  Wish I could remember the author's name but am having an Intellectual Interlude and can't give due credit. 
The quote (paraphrased) was "There were days when the best thing I could say about my husband was 'he married well'". 

[pedln]

The quote (paraphrased) was "There were days when the best thing I could say about my husband was 'he married well'".   

Callie   
 

[mabel1015j]

Callie - you made me LOL.............i know sev'l couples who might make that statement today.......thanks for the laugh........jean

[CallieOK]

Thank you for the kind comments.  I thought it was a delightful observation.

AND...I finally remembered who wrote it and in what book.   It's from "Girls With The Grandmother Faces" by Frances Weaver (published 1987).  Maybe I'll find the page number before this discussion ends. 

[MaryannMcFadden]

An "Intellectual interlude," Callie I love that! I usually say a "brain freeze" rather than a senior moment, because although I'm a card carrying member of AARP, I'm 56 and can't bring myself quite to say senior moment. And I'm pushing the envelope, but still think I'm middle aged, LOL!

Now that we're nearing the end, I can't wait to see what you all think. We've certainly had some strong emotions! Here's the thing, when you write a book, you are creating a little world that you hope will captivate readers, and you are creating characters that must have problems, flaws, and also be believable, and hopefully, you will care about them and keep turning the pages. Not an easy task, whew!

This is a family with issues, to be sure! But at the core, I think we all know, they're good people, despite their temptations, selfishness, etc. So let's see what they choose

[Finnabair]

I'm worried about Claire's decision making abilities.  Just like the lawyers will tell you not to make life changing decisions after a death of a close loved one, I think her thought processes are impaired.

[ginny]

By stress, do you think, Finnabar? How do you think her decision making abilities are impaired?

I have absolutely LOVED all of your comments here, pro and con and in between and especially the vignettes of your own lives. It's good to see  so many people relating to the book personally.

So now we come to the end, and according to Ann, we're to discuss the end now.

What did you think? (I'm unwilling to be a spoiler in case of anybody not quite finished?)

Off the top of my head I'm interested in Claire's decisions too. Do they surprise anybody? At first I thought this last section, the theme of the last section, was "aloneness." Perhaps it's guilt? What do you think it is, really? Secrets resolved?

Then there are  the plot lines. I keep wondering about the plot. What is the climax of the book, to you?

Is it Joe and Ava do you think? Possibly, that scene seemed to set a lot of things in motion and the denouement tied up a lot of ends, but IF it's the scene, then the actual book is not about Claire at all but rather secrets or do you agree?

Or not?

Without giving anything away till we hear from everybody I found the nurse at the place Ava was living most unlikely. I do have  considerable experience with such personnel and I know they do know and reveal things about the residents which one would never have known: a different perspective, but a perspective  of the resident of today, not a 50 year old history.  How on earth does she know, can she be so positive  after a couple of year's experience with Ava, whether or not...well....let's talk about that, too when you get there? She may think she  knows Ava, she does not know what happened 50 years ago, nobody does except Ava and her gynecologist.

What do you think of Claire's "secret?"

Of Joe's?

Or, for  that matter,  of Fanny's?

Which character has grown the most, do you think? If this were a movie we'd have to ask who got the Oscar for character growth?

And what IS, to you, the climax of the book? The point to which all of the events build up and then sort of explode and from then on things change?

Claire's decision about men?
Ava and Joe?
Joe and Fanny?
Fanny's decision?
Claire and Amy?

One of the secrets revealed?

Lots to talk about here. Can't wait to hear what you think?

Those of you initially angry at some of the characters, how do you feel now?

Loved that, Callie! Laughed half the day, thank you.