Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online

[rosemarykaye]

TWO BY BARBARA PYM - November Bookclub Online

Excellent Women

Quartet in Autumn

 

British author, Barbara Pym, is often compared by her readers to Jane Austen. She creates a 20th century society with roots in Victorian times - but with  humor, a very dry humor.  Both Pym and Austen were  concerned with the marriage of their heroines,  before they become "spinsters." (Note that  Austen and Pym never married.)   It is said that the primary subject of a novel of manners, or of all comedy, is marriage.  In order to achieve this, Austen must marry off her heroine at the end of the novel.  Will this be the case with Pym?

The first of her two novels, Excellent Women, written in 1952,  considers Mildred Lathbury's decision - either marry  without the romance or risk remaining a spinster.   The woman is 31 years old!  
The second book, Quartet in Autumn, written in 1977, short-listed for the Man Booker prize in 1980, considers four unmarried co-workers,  as they face retirement years, making do with limited resources.   Pym  is fascinated  by the vision of life without emotional attachment and solitude.
 

Discussion Schedule ~ Quartet in Autumn Nov. 11 - 15     Chapters 1-11 Nov. 16 - 20   Chapter 12 (The Retirement) - Final Chapter

Some Topics from Quartet in Autumn for Your Consideration
Nov. 11-15
Chapters 1 - 11  

1. Here we have four very different characters, each important to the development of the story.  Does any one of the four stand out more than the others?  Which one made the most impression on you?

2. How does this office foursome  view one another?  

3. This book is set in the 1970's and written almost 20 years after Excellent Women.  Does anything initially make you aware of that?

4. Do you find this a different type of book compared to Excellent Women?  Do the two have similar qualities?
How would you compare Midred Lathbury with Letty Crowe?

5.  Have you noted any of the references to "autumn" in these chapters?  What is the feeling  these references convey?

~~~

Related Links:
Barbara Pym Biography Barbara Pym Society; "Subversion from Behind a Teacup" by Catherine Wallace (a must-read!)
Hazel K. Bell's comprehensive Index of Barbara Pym's writings

***Readers' Guide questions for Excellent Women

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Pedln (for Quartet in Autumn )

JoanP - I agree entirely that David Cecil would have been referring to the definition you have found; that is exactly what BP was doing - "satirising genteel society".

Children really do not feature in Pym novels - I don't know if she had no interest in them or was disappointed not to have them, but whenever one does appear (as in An Academic Question), they are uninteresting, undeveloped characters; it's almost as if BP put one in because she thought she ought to.  Her finest novels have no child characters (although there are some grown-up children, - eg in Jane and Prudence, Jane's daughter Flora is about to go up to Oxford), and the women never seem to be in the least bothered by it.   In A Glass of Blessings, Wilmet is asked by her friend Rowena (with whom she was in the Wrens - and I seem to remember that Rocky is mentioned!), now a happily married mother of 3, whether she minds not having had children, and so far as I can recall Wilmet certainly doesn't appear to be desolated.  When Wilmet visits Rowena in the country, the children are handily whisked away by the nanny so that Wilmet and Rowena can have cosy girls' shopping trips, etc.


Rosemary

[PatH]

JoanP or pedln, what's the reading schedule for "Quartet in August"?  I should get started.

[JoanP]

Thanks, Rosemary... that helps to know children are absent in Pym's other stories. It seems that her heroines are more interested in finding a husband and love than having children.   Now I'm eager to know if she mentions them in her autobiography.

We're working on it as we speak, PatH -  We'll have another day to talk about Excellent Women and then on Thursday begin Quartet.  Then we can spend remaining time on both books.

Discussion Schedule ~ Quartet in Autumn Nov. 11 - 15     Chapters 1-11 Nov. 16 - 20   Chapter 12 (The Retirement) - Final Chapter

[Tom in Cantab]

I've been enjoying the lively discussion and just wanted to surface briefly with some general thoughts about the world of Barbara Pym.  First, she wrote what she knew; for most of her life, she jotted down observations of people in restaurants and churches and on the underground and snatches of overheard conversations in little notebooks (now in the Bodleian Library in Oxford) and used this as raw material for her novels.  So "excellent women", clergymen, "high" Anglican churches, and anthropologists all appear regularly, but there are no convincing portrayals of children or the working class, and the foreigners and nobility are often one- or at best two-dimensional foils for the upper middle class characters that are Pym's milieu.

Pym's novels are, in my opinion, best read chronologically (in the order in which they were written, not published).  One can see the profound social and economic changes that swept England after WWII, and especially the strains on the middle class and the changes in the Church of England, build over the course of her literary life.  Reading her autobiography and biography in parallel with the novels makes it clear both how her art imitated her life, and that she was a writer of fiction, whose characters and settings were entirely her own creations.

Those of us who are passionate Pymmites re-read her novels regularly.  When I first read them in my 30s, I loved the characters and settings (the Anglo-Catholic churches she knew and loved are alive and well, although perhaps more often in the US than in the UK), and on second reading the quiet, ironic humor came through more clearly.  Now in my 50s the poignancy, dignity and "quiet desperation" of her characters is more evident.

As you wrap up your discussion of Excellent Women and move on to Quartet, let me point you to a paper presented at a Pym conference in 2002, entitled Barbara Pym's Excellent Women: Subversion from Behind a Teacup http://www.barbara-pym.org/wallace2002.html. Also, there is an index to the writings of Barbara Pym on the Pym Society web site that will help you track down characters who appear in more than one novel. http://www.barbara-pym.org/Pymwritingsindex.pdf And if you have any particular questions about Pym or her writings, please let me know and I'll reply to the best of my ability.

Best wishes,

Tom Sopko
North American Organizer for the Barbara Pym Society

[marcie]

Welcome, Tom. It's wonderful to have another knowledgeable Pymmite to contribute to our discussion. I appreciate your information and links. I'm just heading off to bed. I'll check on the article and index tomorrow. I look forward to reading and learning more.

[Gumtree]

Quote
Noun 1. high comedy - a sophisticated comedy; often satirizing genteel societycomedy - light and humorous drama with a happy ending

JoanP Your looking up that definition sent me to look up the term 'high comedy' as well - this is what I found in The Dictionary of Literary Terms by J.A Cudden (Penguin) which says, in part:

High Comedy : a term introduced by George Meredith in The Idea of Comedy 1877. By it he meant a form of comedy of manners marked by grace, wit and elegance; an urbane form whose appeal was primarily to the intellect.

and then M. H. Abrams'Glossary of Literary Terms says:

High Comedy as described by George Meredith in the classic essayThe Idea of Comedy (1877), evokes "intellectual laughter" - thoughtful laughter from spectators who remain emotionally detached from the action - at the spectacle of folly, pretentiousness, and incongruity in human behaviour. Meredith finds its finest form within the comedy of manners, in the combats of wit between such intelligent, highly verbal, and well matched lovers as Benedick and Beatrice in Shakespeare's Much Ado About Nothing and Mirabell and Millamant in Congreve's The Way of The World.

Just thought someone might be interested in those definitions.

 Barbara Pym certainly fulfills much of those criteria especially relating to the 'the spectacle of folly, pretentiousness and incongruity in human behaviour' - she shows all that to perfection.

I have been a Pym skeptic but am fast becoming a fan - who knows perhaps in time, even a Pymmite 

[Babi]

JOAN, & GUM, I can definitely see the 'satirizing of genteel society'.  I'm still having difficulty with the 'comedy' part. Couldn't see a great deal of 'wit and elegance', either, at least not in the
conversations.
  TOM's remark perhaps holds an explanation for me, ie., on second reading the quiet, ironic humor came through more clearly.  I think it quite likely I was too caught up, on
this reading, with the 'crossroads' Mildred was facing.  I might see more of the humor on a
second reading.

[JoanP]

Good morning, Babi -
I think that many of us reading Pym for the first time have felt the same way you did.  Were we too literally paying  close attention to the action - and not the thinking behind the action - the motivation?  Gum -George Meredith's comment  on high comedy - evoking "intellectual laughter - thoughtful laughter from spectators who remain emotionally detached from the action - at the spectacle of folly, pretentiousness, and incongruity in human behaviour " -

makes me think that we were perhaps not "emotionally detached enough from the action - to really appreciate the satire? Thanks for bringing that to our attention.

Rosemary, thank YOU for verifying that children are absent from Barbara Pym's other novels too - for whatever reason.  I think Tom's comment that  "she wrote what she knew; for most of her life, she jotted down observations of people of the upper middle class" explains the reason we don't see portrayals of children.  We certainly saw that trait of observing others  in Mildred, didn't we?

Tom! - what a treat to find you in our midst this morning! Welcome!    Those links you provided are absolutely amazing!   Hazel K. Bell's Index of Barbara Pym's writings took my breath away!  I wonder how long it took her to compile that.  I see that Mildred Lathbury appears in both Jane Prejudice and Less than Angels...
Yes, these links belong in the heading here...will do that right now...

I am going to put them into the heading for easy future reference right now...

[JoanP]

Tom thinks that "Pym's novels are best read chronologically (in the order in which they were written)" - and now I'm thinking that it is going to be quite a jolt for us to move from the Excellent Women of the 1950's all the way to
Quartet in August - written in the late seventies.  Remember the seventies?  How can one forget them!  We must prepare ourselves.  It seemed like a good idea when we selected Quartet - since it was then that Barbara Pym was recognized by the Booker Prize people and her earlier books gained recognition.  Tom speaks of the poignancy, dignity and "quiet desperation" of her characters - we shall certainly meet them in Quartet.  Let's see if we get the "high comedy" this time around.

[JoanP]

Let's not start with Quartet until tomorrow - there is more to say about Mildred Lathbury - I realized that when reading
Catherine Wallace's "Subversion from Behind a Teacup" .  Thank you so much for that link too, Tom!

I hope you get a chance to read this paper - there is so much to consider - I think many of you reached the same conclusions about Mildred - here are a few of the highlights - but really, you should try to read the paper itself -

That anyone could think Mildred Lathbury is unhappily unmarried is a mystery to me. I see her as a model of independence. And it's a trait shared, though to a lesser degree, by enough of Barbara Pym's women that I find it odd that her writing fell out of popularity just as feminism was coming into it.

This is her designated role in society: a secondary character, ever helpful and dutiful, who must expect to step back to the sidelines when people with real lives make centre stage.

But, all appearances to the contrary, Mildred has the audacity to believe that she is at the centre of her own life. And she acts on this, ever so quietly - so quietly that no one notices she isn't always following the script

Mildred's hardest fought battle of independence is to be permitted to live alone. Why is it that society needs to ensure women are always in company?

This last comment is something that we will be considering in depth when we begin Quartet tomorrow.  Have a great day everyone - Lucky me-  off to the beach!

[JoanK]

TOM: that article was fantastic!

I remember two professors I had in school --- one very dramatic in everything she did, the other very softspoken, he didn't seem to say much. We would go from one class to another. "But he doesn't tell us anything" another student said of the second. I had to "adjust my volume control" to hear what he was telling us, and his lessons were the ones that were the most helpful to me in later life.

Pym is like him. In this society that overdramatizes everything, it is hard to hear her. Certainly the feminists of the seventies (of whom I was one) couldn't hear her saying many of the same things we were, with quiet subversion, rather than angry rebellion.

[PatH]

JoanK, as usual, you sum up the point of something rather succinctly.

One thing we haven't touched on:what do we suppose happened to the Napiers' marriage?  Could those two stick it out together?

[PatH]

Minor but amusing: In chapter 17, Mildred prepares an impromptu lunch for Rocky, when his wife has left him.  It's lettuce, dressed with some of her precious olive oil, Camembert cheese, bread, and a bowl of plums, and it's made to sound rather elegant.  Seventeen pages later, next chapter, she has a lunch she describes as "a real woman's meal".  "A dried-up scrap of cheese, a few lettuce leaves for which I could not be bothered to make any dressing, a tomato and a piece of bread-and-butter".  It's the same meal.  That's probably the rest of the Camembert, maybe the rest of the same head of lettuce, minus dressing and plus a tomato, instant coffee instead of brandy.  How different it sounds.

[nlhome]

I think the humor is sometimes behind what we see - so that a rereading may be necessary to catch it. I know that I had read Quartet in Autumn once before and appreciated and enjoyed it much more with this reading. I think I should reread Excellent Women as well.

[marcie]

ohmygosh, I see what you mean, JoanP, about the index that Hazel Bell created taking your breath away. What work and dedication went into that! Thank you again, Tom, for sharing it.

I too enjoyed, and was informed by, the article at http://www.barbara-pym.org/wallace2002.html

I especially liked this description of Mildred (bolding mine): "Mildred is perhaps the Pym character with at once the strongest and the quietest sense of self. But almost all of Pym's spinster heroines -- I particularly like using "heroines" because these women are so unlikely to use that word to describe themselves -- almost all are mistresses of their own lives in that they are not living in limbo, waiting for rescuers."

I think her quietness might put some people off and hide Mildred's strength of character. That's probably why a second reading would give us better insights.

[fairanna]

Well I have started  Quartet in August  not very many  pages It felt different than excellent women  but since it is chily here and I have caught something again AUGH  I will see how far I go this evening But it did feel like I would enjoy it ....hope everyone is having a happy time and enjoying life/....anna

[pedln]

Good Morning, and welcome to our continuing discussion of Barbara Pym.  Yes, we’ve added another book to our discussion, but I think the main person here is Barbara Pym herself.  And for that we certainly owe much to Rosemary for all her helpful input and to Tom Sopko for bringing such fantastic resources to our attention.  Not to mention the excellents posts by everyone here.

So why did Mildred and Pym's other Excellent Women appear to fall from popularity in the 1960s, a time when women were voicing their independence but Barbara Pym couldn't find anyone to publish her work?

I wish Barbara Pym had had the opportunity to keep writing through the 1980s and 1990s, and through the millennium. I would love to have seen how her women developed.

Catherine Wallace asks an interesting question in her article.  And her closing statement is one we’ll certainly want to consider in our discussion of Quartet in Autumn.  

This week we’ll be concentrating on Quartet in Autumn and its quartet of Marcia, Letty, Edwin and Norman, but while doing so it’s only naturally that comparisons with Excellent Women will come up.  So, let them come up.   And later this month we’ll delve more into comparisons.

Much has been said here about rereading  Pym, and the insights gathered.  I have found that to definitely be true. I read Quartet first, and must say that it colored my reading of Excellent Women, until I went back and did some more reading about Mildred et al.  I don’t see the humor from EW in Quartet.  An my initial thinking was – this is surreal.

Anna, hang in there.  I hope your cold is better soon, and that at least, it gives you an excuse to put your feet up and read.

[JoanP]

Marcie - isn't that Index something else?  I wonder how long it took to put together.  I have only one quibble with Hazel Bell.  She put too much faith in my memory to remember the characters' last names!  Do you remember Rocky and Helena's?  I can't think of it and my book is packed for the flight home later today.  I had wanted to check the index to see whether Pym follows this couple in later novels.

PatH - I imagine that Rocky will continue his flirting, but that Helena wants to keep this handsome, amusing husband of hers, so she will put up with anything he does.  What do you think?
Good eye on the salad, Pat.  Minus the dressing - Mildred will fuss for others, but not for herself.  Is that true with most women? 

Anna, I agree with you, Quartet feels different.  I hate to say this, bot something is missing.  Maybe it is the hope, the promise that Mildred would happiness in the future, that she would find love or contentment.  It remains to be seen whether the heroine of Quartet as found this.

We didn't really address one of the questions about Mildred's future - "Do you see Mildred becoming one of the "Excellent Women" of St. Mary's parish?"

I really liked the observation in Catherine Wallace's article which might answer that question -
"all appearances to the contrary, Mildred has the audacity to believe that she is at the centre of her own life. And she acts on this, ever so quietly - so quietly that no one notices she isn't always following the script"

Now Pedln  leads us into the "noise" of the 1970's - to meet some unmarried women (I have a difficult time calling them "spinsters" - though Pym does not seem to hesitate.)   We're going to have to listen closely to Pym's voice in this one.   Loved your analogy, JoanK  
Here we go! 

 

[pedln]

 

She put too much faith in my memory to remember the characters' last names!  Do you remember Rocky and Helena's?

It's Napier, JoanP.  And you bring out something we should watch for -- We soon learn in Quartet that Marcia is Miss Ivory.  But what about the others?  Do they have last names, and does the fact that we don't learn them immediately or if ever, diminish them in any way?

There is one thing niggling at the back of my mind, bothering me.  Could Pym's stories only be set in the United Kingdom, or would they fit anyplace?  When I think back to the 50's and the 70's here, I can't imagine  Mildred being Mildred here.  Or Letty having to find new living quarters after her retirement.  Just what is a bed-sitting room?

Rosemary and Tom, are there many young people in the Pym society.  How do they look upon Pym's characters.  I'm thinking about my granddaughter who will start college next year.  She wants to major in English and get a masters in education.  She wants to teach.  And I wonder, will she meet Barbara Pym, and what will she think of her?

[Gumtree]

Another word about EW ....

I think the Napiers will stay together - they'll continue to torment one another, arguing and breaking up and coming together again. I think perhaps they deserve one another.

And Mildred: I think she is very self sufficient  and extremely competent in all she does. She deals with whatever is thrust upon her to resolve in a quiet effective manner but only if she chooses so to do - I have no doubt that she performs her work for the 'distressed gentlewomen' just as efficiently, tactfully and compassionately. She has been infatuated by Rocky's facile charm but will not be hurt by him. Everard is perhaps another matter ...

And Everard: I think he is smitten by Mildred. He's an established anthropologist with his own professional world  and presumably a social circle yet suddenly he is everywhere Mildred is - he hangs around her workplace hoping to catch sight of her and perhaps take her to lunch, he attends the same lunchtime church services as Mildred does, he takes her to meet his mother (and if that is some kind of test then Mildred passes with flying colours), asks her to dinner and finally gets her into his own place to look at his etchings (proofs and indexing problems). He also remembers things she says (the oven cloth hanging near the stove) and is not fazed if she pulls her hair back severely or is wearing old clothes and no stockings - forget the surface appearance, Mildred is Mildred to him. He comes across as being erudite in his work but perhaps inarticulate when it comes to personal matters - and Mildred is not helping him out.


I know I'm going to enjoy rereading this book at leisure when I hope more of the nuances of meaning and the underlying 'high comedy' will be revealed.

[JoanK]

JoanP "We didn't really address one of the questions about Mildred's future - "Do you see Mildred becoming one of the "Excellent Women" of St. Mary's parish?"

I can't find the quote, but there is somewhere where Mildred realizes she IS one of the excellant woman. Someone (Rocky?) calls her that, and she realizes that she is one of the excellant women who are approved but taken for granted and ignored.

[bellemere]

The Wallace article was marvelous.  If that is the kind of insights that are shared at the Conference, I think I am hooked. 
Gotta remember that the book is Quartet in Autumn, not August. Autumn just a shade more poignant, no?
I have a widowed friend who, like Mildred , cherishes her home and her solitude,  On the day of her husband's funereal, her rather bossy sister announced to everyone that R. was coming to live in New York with her. My friend set her straight, and has never backed down.
I , and several friends, wonder how we would do on our own. I notice that many of you who are widowed maintain your own homes, while staying on good terms with siblings, children, inlaws, etc.  Maybe there is a little bit of Mildred in all of us as we grow older ande wiser.?  As I survey my children I see only one with whom I could possibly share a home.  But not with the spouse!  and only one child in law with whom I am completely comfortable.  He would have to divorce one daughter and marry the other.  I don't know if that could be arranged.  /
Drove to the library in response to the email that they are holding "Quartet" for me, forgetting Veterans' Day closure .  Will start it tomorrow , after reading it over 15 years ago.   

[rosemarykaye]

Hi all,

I am going through what for me is major stress, ie the selling, or not selling, of my house has reached one of its numerous climaxes this week, and I am not good at this sort of thing   So it's great to have this site to come back to - it's a real anchor, and good to know that it will still be here wherever we are living and however poor we may feel!

Gumtree - you have exactly summarised my thoughts re Everard - though it took me many re-readings over many years to come to them (I first read EW when I was about 23, over 25 years ago).  Sometimes I think I am very slow.

Pedln - I have no idea how old the members of the Pym group are, but I feel that most are middle-aged +.  However. Lauren Mechling, who wrote the report of one of the US Pym conferences that I mentioned before, can't be much over 30.  My elder daughter, aged 15, does not "get" Pym at all, despite having had it quoted at her for years.  She knows exactly what I mean when I enjoy a "Pym moment" - usually through overhearing conversations in cafes, church, etc - but she still wouldn't read a Pym novel.

Although I don't know much about the 1950s in other countries, I don't think the novels could have been set anywhere else.  All of the little details, that are all so Pym, would be hard to translate into another culture.  A bedsitting room is a sort of one room apartment - a room in which you sleep, eat, etc - it might also have a small kitchen in a cupboard or something, but it would be very unlikely - especially in the 1950s - to have its own bathroom.

Rosemary

[rosemarykaye]

I am writing in 2 parts tonight as I still haven't managed to stop the screen rolling up if I write too much...

As I understand it, Quartet In Autumn was written late in BP's life, when she already knew she was suffering from terminal cancer.  I suppose it is more than likely that this coloured her view of the world, but it is also possible that she just wanted to examine a different aspect of it - instead of the comfortably affluent (Some Tame Gazelle, A Glass of Blessings) or the comfortable-ish (EW, No Fond Return of Love), she perhaps wanted to look at the position of the unmarried and unmonied in the 1970s.

I don't find it nearly such an enjoyable book as EW, but it is still a good book, and its observations are, IMO, spot-on.  In our property-obsessed society, it is perhaps hard to imagine retired people who don't own their own home, but they are out there, and this novel shows just how much that fact can affect your whole life.  My mother used to work with a very eccentric older lady, who had been born into the aristocracy; she and her husband had decided never to buy property, as he worked abroad a lot and she, having no other ties, went with him.  Husband then died young-ish, and she was left in "genteel poverty", living in a poorly heated, dilapidated flat and without the resources to do anything much about it.  It's really awful how much not owning bricks and mortar can matter, at least in this country.


Rosemary

[JoanK]

In this country, it matters a lot, too. I don't know where I would be if I hadn't owned my own home. Even though I sold it and moved, it gave me the capital to settle somewhere else.

The violent ups and downs in the housing market in the US have hurt many, elderly and other. I was lucky in that respect.

[pedln]

I , and several friends, wonder how we would do on our own.

Bellemere, you would do fine, I’m sure, and would continue on as you have done.  But throughout this discussion and again with  your remarks I have found myself thinking of Holly Cantus.  Does anyone remember Holly,  and her Lady of the House Almanac and the Pocket Book of Household Hints?  I was fortunate to make her acquaintance when she came to live in Puerto Rico in the 1960’s, early 70’s.  I think she was from New York,  and she been recently widowed.  And as she told it, after her husband died, when she was again attending dinners and social gatherings she noticed that all the widows sat together at one table.  And she vowed that she was not going to take her expected place at the widows’ table. Instead, she came, alone, to Puerto Rico.  I’m not sure why that particular location.  But whenever she attended a social gathering, when she left she knew everyone who had been there.  I don’t know if she is the antithesis of Mildred or merely an example of a woman who wouldn’t fall into place.

Rosemary, thanks for that info.  I gather that a bed sitting room would often be in a private home, much like Letty’s in Mrs. Pope’s house?  I would hate to share a bathroom all the time with people outside my family.  And by the way, who had to go upstairs and who had to go down, at Mildred’s and the Napiers?  Insult to injury, that.

[pedln]

In this country, it matters a lot, too. I don't know where I would be if I hadn't owned my own home. Even though I sold it and moved, it gave me the capital to settle somewhere else.

For sure, JoanK.  Be it ever so humble there’s no place like home.  My dead-end block has become more humble (the University student renters next door have already put up outdoor Christmas decorations – no doubt in preparation for the next party), but come what may, my house and what’s in it are mine.  The thought of Letty, facing retirement, decreased income, and her older years without secure housing, is really horrible.

It used to be that ministers would never own their own homes.  They would always live in the “parsonage.”  And then the churches started realizing they had all these older retired preachers who had no home of their own.  One minister told us that when he was in seminary they were starting to advise them to demand housing allowance rather than having to accept the house that the church owned.

[Gumtree]

Rosemary: Hope your house sale goes through happily... and yes, I'm sure that Mildred has knocked Everard for a six. It wouldn't have taken much for Pym to turn the story into a happy ever after ending as all the elements are already in place. I'm glad she didn't as it's more fun this way.

[PatH]

Back in the late 1960s, I bought an amusing paperback called "Cooking in a Bed-sitter" which told me a lot about living in one room in England.  Your pantry was a box under the bed, and you were advised that if you couldn't eat your chop as soon as you planned, marinate it in something acidic, and it would keep an extra day.  You were assumed to have some sort of gas ring or hot plate, and meal plans gave different strategies for one burner or two.

I had no use for this advice, but I have a taste for reading odd cookbooks, and it looked pretty practical.

[PatH]

Rosemarykaye, selling your house (or not) has to be a gut-wrenching time for you.  As you will have noticed, we all feel free to vent our problems here, so you know you can always do the same.

[rosemarykaye]

PatH - the book you mention is almost certainly Katherine Whitehorn's "Cooking In A Bedsitter" - an iconic work!  I still have my copy, and loved it dearly when I was cooking in a student kitchen in the 1970s.  (It was originally published in 1961).  Her recipes were very simple and practical and usually turned out quite well (I fondly recall one in which you cooked chops in a tin of condensed soup  ).

I remember her saying something like "If Meat costs 35p per pound, we think it cheap, if vegetables cost 35p per pound we think them expensive - moral: eat vegetables".

There was a similar book - though not about cooking - by Jilly Cooper, about how to survive as a young working woman in London (this was not about power dressing and promotion, much more about how to do as little work as possible, have as many boyfriends as possible, and generally lead a riotous life - not very PC I suppose, but good fun); they were both of an age, and both good reads with lots of jokes.

Rosemary

[pedln]

I remember her saying something like "If Meat costs 35p per pound, we think it cheap, if vegetables cost 35p per pound we think them expensive - moral: eat vegetables".

 

[bellemere]

A friend of my daughter's cleaned out her mom's condo and found "Making Miracles with Jello" from the 50's.  She thought it very quaint.  I told her that I still had my "Cooking with Velveeta" book.  What was Velveeta anyway? I know it pretended to be cheese, but what was it really?
To sell or not to sell the house is an ongoing theme here, too.  Haven't seen anthing that makes me want to move.  The new condos are luxurious and comfortable, but most of them are out on a highway with no sidewalks, miles from grocery stores, necessitating a car, and I have a feeling that there is no "neighboring" going on. So the two of us sit here with four bedrooms, hosting kids a few times a year. shrinking the gardens, fixing things as the fall apart dealing with grass, leaves, and snow and wondering if we are nuts.
I think Americans, even more than other countries, put tremendous emphasis on single home ownership, with tax deductions for mortgage interest, and low interest loans that helped us get into this bursting housing bubble that I don't fully understand.  Owning property is the Holy
Grail here, more valued for its appreciation as an investment than as shelter. 
Barbara's "distressed gentlewomen" apparently had to dip into their capital too often, as homeowners dip into equity loans too ft en, and the result is similar. 
Boy, I am rambling here, but your comments raise so many thoughts in my head.  I need an organizing principle as my teachers used to tell me. Excuse, please. 

[JoanP]

Goodness!  One day away - will I ever catch up with all of you?  I'm going to try, but there is so much here to talk about -   I need to slow down.

First of all, practical matters -

Rosemary - selling a house is a difficult matter~ (and then there's the packing and moving once you sell!). We appreciate the time you are making for us.  I'm flummoxed as to what is causing your screen to jump and roll if it isn't that compatibility issue.  Did you try to click that box to the right of your browser described in a previous post?  That's usually the problem.  I'm going to repeat it again for you, just in case you missed it.
I found it in Post 111 -
Try this -
COMPABILITY ISSUES -
The remedy is to "Switch your browser to run in "Compatibility mode."  When a site is open in the IE8 browser there is a button to the right of the address bar that looks like a broken page. Do you see it?   Click on that. It will turn blue-ish.  Warning - don't do this in the middle of a reply post or you will lose your work as it changes mode.

"Gotta remember that the book is Quartet in Autumn, not August. Autumn just a shade more poignant, no? Bellemere"

 Oh, yes...the autumn of one's life - that's what this is all about isn't it?  I don't know how those wires got crossed.  I've tried to scrub out all the mention of August and change to Autumn - if you spot it anywhere else, please let me know and I'll fix it immediately.  I hope when you are all reading the book you be on notice for references to  "Autumn" ...

Bellemere, emptying the house to put it on the market is enough to scare me into staying.  We've lived here for 34 years - I'm told that was a mistake.  If you move every ten, you have an easier time of it.  To make matters worse, I'm something of a pack rat!

Pedln -  Napier - of course!  Thank you.  Now I can look up "Napier, Rocky"  in Bell's Index to see if the couple will appear in future Pym.

And you bring out something we should watch for -- We soon learn in Quartet that Marcia is Miss Ivory.  But what about the others?  Do they have last names, and does the fact that we don't learn them immediately or if ever, diminish them in any way?

  An interesting question.  I noted somewhere that Letty's name is Letty Crowe.  I might not mean anything if we don't know last names...  unless you want to look them up in Hazel Bell's Index, of course.  The story seems to be about the relationships (or lack of) amongst the four office workers - who address one another by first names.  Maybe not important at all that last names aren't used...

[pedln]

Rosemary, I have encountered what you're experiencing in typing posts, but generally only on my laptop (vista) and not with the desktop (xp), which may or may not be a Vista problem. One solution -- I usually type all my posts in WORD and then cut and paste in the REPLY, then tweek what needs to be tweeked.

During my first reading of Quartet ( and of Barbara Pym) I thought of the book as totally bizarre. (That’s the adjective JoanP was going to ask me about).  Here were these four people who worked and had worked together in one room – doing what?  We’re never told.  They’re just there.  And the sense of isolation among them is overwhelming.  They really don’t communicate.  Yes, Marcia had been ill – something cut out or cut off, but nobody knew for sure.  And why was this man Edwin going to all these different churches, every day.  Or were they different churches, he seemed to see the same priest, someone to have a drink with.  I thought this book very strange.

But now, after reading and discussing EW, I think that one needs to know how to read Pym, and I’ve learned much through reading all your posts.  The settings are narrow, the lives depicted are narrow, but made up of many details.  Hopefully there is much to be gained from the second time around.

So, if you had a chance to read any of Quartet, is there any one character that stands out for you more than the others?

[JudeS]

Re:Subversion Behind a Teacup

Thia was a really well written and thoughtful article that helped me to understand why so many of you folks like B.P. and her books so much.  I am still trying to be convinced.

The question "Could this story be happening in another coountry or time?" interested me.
In the early 1950s England was recovering from a devastating war, the feminist movement was on the rise and the British colonial system was falling apart. Thus England was in a state of flux. The still solid pillars were the Church and the Monarchy.  However , as we see in the novel the differences between the "High" and "Low" church were on Mildred's mind.
(Is incense a good or bad thing?). However Church going is a given to her and she thinks  a lot about wether people do or do not attend services.  Everard does attend , which seems to make him  a bit more acceptable. So I think this is very English and time specific.

Because of the importance of the time and setting I wonder if Pym's books have been translated and if so into what
languages? Does anyone know?

[salan]

JoanP, when you mentioned last names earlier; I started paying attention in Quartet.  So far I found 3 last names:  Edwin Braithwaite, Marcia Ivory & Letty Crowe.  I either overlooked Norman's or it hasn't been mentioned. 
Questions:  What is orvieta (someone was drinking a cup of it) and what is a zebra crossing? 

I find it a little frustrating that BP depicts single people as leading rather dull and narrow lives.  We have a 93 year old woman in my ftf reading group who has never been married and she has led a very active, interesting and productive life.  No one would ever describe her as a spinster or an old maid.  I wish these characters had a little more "color" in their lives. 

My descriptions of these characters (through chap. 11):  Edwin--prissy pants,  Norman--the grouch, Letty--the mouse, and Marcia--what word would you use for someone who sneaks her garbage into the library and hordes tins of food and milk bottles???  Despicable, maybe?

Sally

[PatH]

Sally, thanks for the last names.  A zebra crossing is one of those striped paths at an intersection where pedestrians absolutely have right of way, and all cars have to stop for them.  This seems to work better in the UK than it does here; you can actually expect people to stop.  Here, it's pretty chancy.

[pedln]

Sally, did the orvieto come up in EW?  I'm thinking Rocky offered some to MIldred? I remember reading orvieto, but I don't remember where.  It's a nice Italian white wine, dry , but not too dry.  Nice, before dinner.

So we have the last  names of three of our Quartet.  In the index, Norman is listed as Norman.

Jude, an interesting question about the translations.  Other countries would also have experienced bombing and extreme rationing during the war, so that would be in common. But the religious aspects might be hard to understand.

[JoanP]

Pedln, wouldn't we have to say that it is Marcia who stands out in a crowd?  Her hair, her clothes, her beady stare.  Yes, I'd have to say it's Marcia.  Letty , Edwin and Norman - I don't think you'd notice them, they sort of fade into the woodwork.
 
Sally - thanks for Edwin's last name.  Now we can look him up in Hazel Bell's Index - (he doesn't appear in any more of Pym's novels - but Helena does in Less thatn Angels  and Rocky in A gless of Blessings.  I found that interesting - not together in the future novels???)

Jude - an interesting question  - To me, the story is so British, I personally  can't  see it set anywhere else.  Don't know about translations though.  We'll have to ask Tom - and Rosemary.  I was interested in the "welfare state"  referred to quite frequently in Quartet.  I assume the reference is to National Health care.  Would be interested to hear what all you think of that.
Did you notice - neither one of the heroines (Marcia or Letty?)  seem to be churchgoers.  No excellent women here.  Is this another indication of the changing times?

Pedln, we're  posting together at the same time...
Orvieto - I think it's the Italian wine David Lydell, Letty's friend Marjorie's fiance is savoring.  Already he gets on my nerves.  I think he'd show interest in anything that is free.  So he lives in the vicarage.  Is he to live with Marjorie?  Is that why Letty can't move in with her as they had always planned?