Talking Heads ~ Three Day Wonders

[JoanP]

Talking Heads #11

"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting..."
Herbert Bayard Swope, creator of the Op-Ed page.

A   forum for opinions on anything in print: magazines, newspaper articles, online:
 bring your ideas and let's discuss.

Our  Eleventh Topic:      3 DAY WONDERS - topics and articles provided every three days by YOU, our readers.   Fourth  topic: What Do You Know about Islam? Islam: Questions  & Answers with Diane Sawyer What Is Islam? Why Do Radicals Feel Violence Is Justified? Is Western Culture at Odds with Islam?

 

Contact:  Babi - (Head Honcho) 


Well, we did - and fortunately the test was clear, no sign of clotting.  I think Bruce's problem was that no one looked at the swelling before ordering the test.  The only one who saw him was the technician.  It was at my insistance that he call the doctor...but I did think a doctor would take a look before ordering the test.

[Steph]

I think I would want to know why the nurse felt like that unless she was an NP.. Then I would have trusted her.

[JoanP]

Our  Eleventh Topic:      3 DAY WONDERS - topics and articles provided every three days by YOU, our readers.   Fourth  topic: What Do You Know about Islam? Islam in America Islam: Questions  & Answers with Diane Sawyer What Is Islam? Why Do Radicals Feel Violence Is Justified? Is Western Culture at Odds with Islam? Islam in America

 

Contact:   Babi - (Head Honcho)  

[Ella Gibbons]

I listened to the audio with Diane Sawyer (I think it is just Part I?) and then I was disconnected when the commerical came on.  Is there a Part II?

The program is on American Muslims, all well and good.  I see little girls being educated with boys; little girls speaking up, but only in America!  Not so in Arab countries.

This site tells another story.  Extremism in Pakistan.  Be sure to listen to all of it as near the end you will see the beautiful school for young wealthy boys who are very educated, particularly in Western culture, and are the leaders of extremism in the country believing that America is attempting to colonize Arab countries by controlling them economically.  That's a new one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9fW9jPnjgE

[Babi]

 Good question, ELLA.  I wish Mahlia were here to address it, but she has lab appointments this
morning.  I should have alerted her much earlier as to the sceduled date of this discussion, but
it is moving fast. My bad.
   The extremism in Pakistan does illustrate a point Mahlia has often made.  The social mores
and customs often have more to do with the country/area than strictly with Islam. People tend
to adapt their religious beliefs to fit with the ways their society has interacted for generations,
..even centuries.
  I have a quote from the Qu'ran which I thought would be useful at this starting point.
  "Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Christians...and (all) who believe in God and the last day and work
righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."  The Qur'an, 2:62

[JoanP]

Babi - an interesting quote.  What struck me when reading it -
"Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Christians...and (all) who believe in God and the last day and work
righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."  The Qur'an, 2:62
It sounds as if each religion has a seperate Lord, doesn't it?

Ella, see if this link fills in the missing parts: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/islam-questions-answers/story?id=11747416

[maryz]

I know very little about Islam.  Last year, we did a one-day Elderhostel at a mosque in Atlanta.  It was most interesting, but of course, very superficial.  I've know only one Muslim - a woman who was in our swim class for about a year.  She was a charming person, from Turkey, but we didn't discuss religion at all.

[pedln]

MaryZ, I know very little about Islam, also.  And it's interesting you mention your one Muslim acquaintance.  The only one I know is also from Turkey, and a good friend of my DIL.  She is married to an American, has two grown sons, and does not wear the traditional Muslim dress, but dresses like any other 40-something American woman.  She and my DIL also swim together regularly, but she would not swim during Ramadan because she fasted between sunrise and sunset -- and no food or liquid passes the lips.  I thought that was very impressive dedication.

[maryz]

pedln, my friend also did not swim during Ramadan.  Her husband worked for a US company and was here in Chattanooga for 2-3 years, and lived as "normal" Americans (whatever that is).  When they were transferred from here, she was afraid they would be sent to Saudi Arabia, and she didn't want to be in that repressive culture (for women).  In the event, they were transferred to Singapore.  We heard from her for a while, but nothing for a number of months now.

[CallieOK]

I am not acquainted with any Muslims and don't know anything about the "structure" of their mosques.

Some churches are assigned a pastor, some churches "call" (hire) their own, some pastors establish an independent church - sometimes affliated with a denomination, sometimes not.

How does a mosque acquire an Imam?  Is the process different in the Middle East than in America?

[maryz]

We were surprised to learn that each mosque is an independent congregation.  It's usually started by a single man or a group.  That founding group is the governing body of the mosque, manages the budget, and chooses the imam.

[Ella Gibbons]

Okay, Maryz, what duties does an imam have?  Is he a full-time employee of the mosque?

Yes, we need MAHLIA here. 

JOANP, I'LL try your site now.  My daughter and I saw a movie today called CAIRO TIME.  A married American woman went to Cairo to meet her husband there as he was an employee of some sort for the United Nations.  I do hope that American tourists show a bit more sense than she did!!

[Ella Gibbons]

JoanP, I've seen that much of the video, I thought there might be more. 

[maryz]

Don't know the answer to that, Ella.  As you say, we need Mahlia.

[straudetwo]

Any insight we can glean about Islam will be welcome, though 3 days' worth of discussion is unlikely o produce them.  But it mat point a way of how to gain further knowledge,.

If I may,  newer readers here may not be aware that we have explored the subject before in the Books in early 2004,  as we discussed the book
Islamic Threat : Myth or Reality ?, by John Esposito,Professor of Islamic Studies.  Ann was the DL..   Persian/Mahlia among many others was a participant, and so was I.
The discussion is recorded in our Archives.

Now, six years later, might be a good time to check where we are, here.
Traude

[JeanneP]

I very seldem come into this forum.  Like most people in US and other countries have never been taught anything about Islam or what the Quran says.
I just have one thing.  Over the centuries other religions have changed. Judism, Christianity even Budist.  Islam seems to have stood still.
ONe can't live by what was written in any of the books.  This is the problem I find in Islam.
Women have to be given more rights.  Not having to be so covered up, Freedom to do many of the things that men do.  Think for themselves. Allowed to be independent.

I believe that no G-D wants them to live the way that some countries still have them live.

[Persian]

Home again, finally, and happy to join in this discussion RE Islam.  We also watched Diane Sawyer's recent program and found it interesting, certainly a source for bringing an understanding to those who know noting about the religion of Islam or its adherents worldwide.  And just like in Judaism and Christianity (the two other Abrahamic religions), the countries and cultures in which Islam is practiced ALSO plays a strong role in HOW Muslims adhere to their faith (or NOT).

Hi Traude - I surely remember that discussion RE Islam several years ago.  And if it is still archived, it certainly might help folks who are not at all familiar with Islam or perhaps who would like to enrich their knowledge.

JEANNE - your comment "like most people in the US and other countries have never been taught anything about Islam," is almost identical to a lecture topic I taught some years ago.  In presenting the research for the project, I was able to verify through several sources that indeed there are numerous folks in the USA and other countries who DO have some knowledge of Islam, although many do NOT have the intense background to help them understand the broad areas that pertain to the culture, ethnicities, suburban/urban/country/village practices which commonly play a major role in how Islam is practiced and how adherents conduct themselves in relation to their faith.

Since moving from the metropolitan Washington DC area to the American South (about 20 miles NE of Charlotte, NC), I have come to realize that this is a part of the USA where folks REALLY do not understand Islam.  However, there are MAJOR Muslim communities throughout the USA.  Detroit comes readily to mind.  And the PARADE magazine in today's Sunday paper features a major article on the increase in Muslims in - of all places - Lincoln, Nebraska!  There are large Islamic communities in New York and up and down the California coastline.  (NOTE:  Many of the relatives of the late Shah of Iran - who are Muslim - live in that area, as well as in New York).  Muslims can be found in large numbers in many American cities and some in much smaller areas (like Lincoln), since the relocation of Arab Muslims from Iraq to the USA.

Has Islam "stood still" over the centuries?  I don't think so, unless one focuses on the enormously orthodox, centuries old Islamic customs in Saudi Arabia (which has a high level of well educated citizens, although that may not be well known in the West either unless one is familiar with Saudis).  For example, the Muslims of Turkey and Azerbaijan (a former Soviet Republic) are "reaching out" to industry to improve their citizens' livelihood.  And in doing so, they have become less traditional.  Each Islamic mosque is NOT the same, just like each Jewish shul or Christian church is NOT the same.  Christianity and Judism have moved ahead and so has Islam in many world regions.  Sometimes  the congregations have broken away from their historical past (i.e., Jews for Jesus comes readily to mind) and the more profoundly  Christian congregations (especially in the American deep South, which have had a history of deep-seated conservatism) have revised many of their practices, while still maintaining their central belief in God.

I've always been amazed why non-Muslims are so focused on the dress of Muslimas (female Muslims).  Covering one's head is simply a form of modesty, as is NOT wearing reveling clothing.
I wonder if the same folks who seem who put-off by a Muslima's head scarf would also feel uncomfortable about an Amish woman's head covering?  Or a Russian village woman covering her head with a bandana?  Or African women and their often VERY elaborate head coverings?

Thanks very much for posting your range of comments, as they are excellent and give us an opportunity to share our thoughts and - hopefully - learn more together.  Another BIG issue for non-Muslim Americans (particularly) to understand Muslimas is to realize that in several world regions in which Islam is predominant (the aforementioned Saudi Arabia and the Far East come readily to mind) women have shown that they can be well educated and use their education and interests in the business sector.  There are numerous Saudi women who have created very successful businesses in which they serve as the Founder and President (or CEO, CFO, etc).  They are active in Stock Exchanges, moving their funds worldwide in response to the actions of the markets, and hire, fire, train and promote other women in their companies. 

IRAN in the time of the late Shah was another world region where Muslimas were enormously successful in business, education, science.  I've known many Iranian women who were educated in the USA and Europe, returning to their home country and developing successful (and VERY lucrative) businesses, while marrying, raising a family and continuing to contribute to worthy philanthropic causes.

Unfortunately, what we in the USA hear and see on the international news often focuses on village women in the Middle East, Central and South Asia, and the Far East who are NOT well educated, often totally illiterate and abused regularly by men in their families.  DIANE SAWYER's recent program gave voice to some Muslimas who have been successful and happy.  And although her program did not delve into too many situations due to the lack of time, it did give a brief overview of some of the Muslimas who reach out to the world.  Even though they might often still prefer to cover their hair when doing so!

[Persian]

HI ELLA - who establishes and runs an Islamic mosque?  Good question and I think MARYZ has given the first answer.  The establishment of a mosque anywhere in the world obviously comes from the desire to create a house of worship.  Mosques can include classes on Islam (as many do, especially the VERY large ones) or small discussion groups about the religion attended by only a few.  Larger mosques offer many opportunities to their members (and visitors):  classes on a range of topics for children, teenagers, young adults, married and single folks, those who have specific goals or educational issues in mind (i.e., serving the poor in the community, cooking, language studies, business opportunities, etc.)  In the latter respect, they are like dealing with organizations focused on their communities, NOT just a place to worship.  But then that is also true of many of the large churches and their range of activities, NOT just worship.

In terms of creating a worship community, funding the building costs, hiring teachers or speakers on specific topics in the range of classes, there are Boards of Directors (or Management) made up of members of the mosque, just like the Boards one finds in most houses of worship.  And the larger the congregation, the larger (and more diverse) the "management" Boards usually are.

If possible, skip the focus on womens' headscarves and realize that Muslimas OFTEN have a very strong voice (although NOT always public) in many of the areas of management.  They discuss issues among themselves, pass those ideas onto the various Board representatives and often contribute from their own funds to "make things happen."  With older women, this vital role in the mosque's business is done quietly.  With younger women, it can be REALLY LOUD and directly to the point!

HI CALLIE - Try to think of Islamic Imams who are active in very large mosques, especially those which are ancient or affiliated with universities (like the main ones in Cairo, Egypt) as you would of a Christian SENIOR Pastor who is responsible for a large church.  There are Senior Imams and those newer to the responsibility; they work strongly with senior male members of the community, while often their wives are equally as much involved with the womens' groups and issues.  In the much smaller gatherings - like in a village or rural farm area - they may spend more time working on their farms and only attend to the mosque business on a limited time.
Some Imams are extremely well educated, others not.  Away from the mosque, they may give the impression of a well-to-do businessman.  And some who formerly thought they were "called" to serve God and the community, will occasionally find that they are not comfortable in the public role and refocus on some other way to serve the community.

Unlike when Jewish congregations have separated into different styles of worship and often appointed female Rabbis, I've never met or heard of a female Imam.  Muslimas often host studies on the Holy Qur'an in their homes or in classes for other women.  They also participate in public gatherings with women of other faiths to discuss their beliefs and the core of Islam or to answer questions about Islamic customs, along with the role of women in Islam.  And of course, many Muslimas are teachers, often in classes for female students.  Although in the USA there are Muslimas who teach at all levels in public and private institutions from grade schools through university.  Some wear the head scarfs, while others do not.  And, of course, there are Muslims in various scientific fields, working alongside men in the labs and classrooms in the West, but NOT in the conservative countries.

Hi PEDLN - RE your comment about your friend fasting during the Holy month of Ramadan - I have often fasted during the month and realize that for those of us NOT accustomed to doing so, each year can be a trial, when one is temped to eat or drink.  The core purpose of fasting to experience first-hand how those who cannot afford food feel when they cannot eat, but it is ALSO a way to cleanse your system and focus on God and His love and care for those less fortunate.  Some folks are not successful at fasting - just liike any topic that pertains to us humans - and others are absolutely devout.  My husband's father in Egypt is 95 years old and he still fasts - nothing, absolutely nothing goes past his lips during the daytime.

Hi JOANP - Same God for Jews, Christians and Muslims?  Yup!  The God of Abraham.  In all the many years that I have read the Holy Scriptures of each religion, lectured and taught classes to enhance the understanding of these religions in the USA, Iran and even China (of all places!), this question ALWAYS is one of the first to arise.  But in reading the 3 holy Books side by side, it is clear that there are MANY similarities!  They are NOT word-for-word similar, and each translation from the original Arabic into English (or any other language) has to be appreciated for the variances which the translators may make given the dates when the translations took place and whether the footnotes are extensive or not.

I've always thought of the differences I've noticed in reading the Holy Bible in an edition that was printed in Olde English or Latin or German vs what we have to read from in 2010.  Languages change over the centuries (decades?) and the translations of old are NOT the same as what we can purchase today.

Equally, it is important to understand that someone from a village background who is totally illiterate in his/her own language (let alone ours) will be able to grasp ONLY what he/she has heard from a verbal presentation, NOT read themselves.  And that makes a huge difference.

I'm beginning to get sleepy, so I'd better sign off now.  Hope the above posts have helped to bring some more understanding about the topic. 

Mahlia

[Steph]

 I dont mind the head scarves, but the full burqua.. Horrible and looks like a captive on the streets. I know quite a lot about Amish and Mennonites.. They wear a tiny organdy cap mostly with braids under it.. The mennonites,, not even that,, but they can if they want to..
I dislike the separation of men and women in rules and conduct. I know how uncomfortable I was in Cairo when we ate in restaurants other than the hotel. I was close to the only women ever and there were no groups of women anywhere.. just men. I know.. I know. they meet at home or at other womens places, but I love the freedom of the US to go and do whatever I want. I had a doctor who was a Hindu( female) once.. and she actually called herself Mrs. Doctor. which struck me as odd.
I noten on TV, that the current Queen in one of the countries.. did not even wear the head covering when interviewed on TV. A beautiful woman, well educated and outspoken, but I think quite rare mostly.

[JoanP]

Thank you for the care you took in responding to the points posed here in this discussion, Mahlia.  It seems that it is not so easy to dismiss the burqua  and its significance, however -

Steph, there are more and more women clad in the burqua in our area here in Northern VA.  In some stores, maybe it was in Michael's or a Tuesday Morning, the entire staff was wearing the head scarf.  You can't help but notice the increase - the sheer numbers of women wearing them.

Traudee...I went to the Archives and found a link to  The Islamic Threat discussed on SeniorNet in 2004.  Although the font of the original discussion is really tiny, you can enlarge the comments on your own computer, I think.  Also, there are quite a few links to articles on Islam that appear in the heading of that discussion - they appear in large, legible font...

[CallieOK]

Thank you, Mahlia, for your thoughtful and informative answers to our questions.

If a mosque needed an Imam for whatever reason (death, dissatisfaction with the current one, etc.), what would the process be to acquire one?


For anyone...
Do you think the discomfort that some of us feel about head scarves, burquas, etc. is because we resist the idea of women acting subservient to men?

[Babi]

  HURRAY!! Mahlia is back! Do read that post carefully. It's chock-full of
information. She's answered a lot of questions I thought I was going to have to
struggle with. 

   Interesting questions, CALLIE.  Here is a link on the structure of a mosque:
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0859779.html 
  And here's a good link about Imams:
 http://www.collegeboard.com/csearch/majors_careers/profiles/careers/100642.html

  You're right, of course, TRAUDE.  There is no way we can cover so immense a subject
as Islam in a three-day read-and-discuss format.  It can only help, tho', to raise
and answer as many questions as we can, adding that much to our store of knowledge and
understanding, at least.  There are many good books on the subject, and I hope some
others may be recommended here as well.

 MAHLIA's remarks reminded me of the old, misinformed, rabidly anti-Catholic tirades
we would sometimes hear from Protestant pulpits 2-3 generations ago. Now, we all too
often hear misinformation coming from our pulpits regarding Islam.  Sadly, there are
preachers who 'follow the party line' and really know very little about it.

[Ella Gibbons]

Thank you, MAHLIA, would that we could sit around in comfort with each other and discuss the subject in person with you.  And possibly you could bring a Muslimas (is that what you are calling a female Muslim?) to talk to us.  

Callie's question in RIGHT ON!

"Do you think the discomfort that some of us feel about head scarves, burquas, etc. is because we resist the idea of women acting subservient to men?"

Possibly, probably!!    It was in 1920 I believe that women in American finally acquired all the equal rights with men (they could finally vote!).  And previous to that women could not own property.  We are equal in America.

It seems that in some instances in the Muslim world, regardless of their business acumen and their roles in the home) they are not equal to men.  Public restaurants where women are not allowed!  They cannot attend a mosque?

Is it not true that women cannot go to public places unless she is given permission by her husband or father?  Is it not true that she is REQUIRED to wear the head scarf by her religious government rules.

[Persian]

Good Morning - I'm not yawning as much as I was last night when I posted, so I thought I'd slip into the discussion again.

JOAN - my pleasure to share some of the information about Islam and the variety of choices for Muslimas in choosing the type of clothing and head covering to wear (or not).  Indeed, there is a growing Islamic population in your area.  I've met some of the Muslim families living in Arlington (and surrounding areas).  Most of the women whom I've known through my former public lectures or friends or university acquaintances are business women AND busy parents and spouses at the same time.  Since you are in an area where there is a substantial population of Muslims, have you ever visited a study group at a mosque or a women's' forum or perhaps attended various community sessions in private homes where they discuss how they can best reach out to others in their neighborhoods.   The Northern VA area has a broad population of non-native Americans, folks from world regions who has happily adapted to American customs for the most part, while keeping some of their traditional customs.  Many of the folks whom I've met at various events and in private homes have been wonderfully open about their lives.  If you have opportunities to attend events AND pose some cultural/religious questions, I hope you do so.  PLUS the food is ALWAYS marvelous!

WEARING THE BURQA:  I've never worn the full burqa, but when I was a visiting lecturer in Iran and traveled with friends to a couple of rural villages, I did wear a head scarf and made sure that my long skirt reached to mid-calf, as well as my sweater and jacket being loose fitting.  It was NOT necessarily for a religious purpose, but simply my way of showing respect for the village customs.  I also did NOT try to shake hands with the adult men whom I met, but simply smiled briefly, placed my right hand over my heart and nodded my head slightly in greeting.  The women in the village did NOT wear a full burqa, as they worked outdoors most of the time, but their heads were covered with scarves, skirts were long and loose.  Many of the women wore loose-fitting, long sleeved shirts (no cleavage showing at all), but depending on the type of work they did outdoors (and the temperature), they often pushed the sleeves up to their elbows.

During my visits to mosques, I've always covered my head, but I also did that when I fellowshipped with friends in any Catholic church.  I am of an age (and Irish background) when one did NOT enter a house of worship (of any religion) without covering ones head.  It was simply thought of as a courtesy.  I never thought doing so was any type of subordination on my part.

BABI - thanks for the welcome.  I smiled at your remembrance of the way some narrow-minded folks of bygone days spoke of the Catholic church and its members.  I recall as a youngster attending a Southern Pentecostal church with my late Aunt and Uncle.  The latter was raised in Missouri and when I often visited in Summers, I accompanied the family to their local church service.   During one service, when the Pastor was criticizing Catholics for NOT being "God's children, but evil-minded folks," I spoke aloud to my Uncle and said something along the lines of  "God will NOT be happy with that man's comments.  God loves EVERYONE!"  Guess I spoke too loud because in a couple of second, one of the Ushers was standing at the end of our row, motioning for me to follow him outside.  I did and ended up sitting on the steps waiting for my family.  But when the Pastor came out with a scowl on his face, I simply repeated what I'd said, assuring him that although God would be angry that he was so critical of others, I was sure He would forgive the Pastor.  Then I turned to my Uncle and asked "NOW can we go for ice cream?"

CALLIE - Of course, it can be confusing for non-Muslim Western women to see Muslimas wearing  head scarves, but if one is able to talk with them about WHY they do so, one is able to understand more fully.

Breaking it down into more familiar reasoning about the flip side,  think about WHY some Western women wear clothes that emphasize their figures, especially their bosoms and buttocks, short skirts and bikinis that are barely a piece of string, while other women dress more modestly.  Why do some women who are regular attendees at their church services (regardless of denomination) go out with friends wearing clothes that reveal the shape and size of their bodies to the extreme, especially on "Girls Night Out," which I'd never heard of until I moved to the American South a few years ago.  I've often wondered where the custom in the West originated which encouraged women to purchase and wear clothes in public which are so revealing of their bodies with little if any negative comments.  Movies, Hollywood, TV, glamour magazines, teenage daredevil comments which carry on into adult life?

I'm not by any means shy - after all, I'm a native Californian! - but I do recognize that there is an acceptance of the "skin baring" type of clothes worn by many Western women, yet  an uncomfortableness about Muslimas who cover their heads and dress modestly.  Is that same level of discomfort directed at Orthodox Jewish women who dress VERY conservatively, often in long skirts and full-length shirts or loose sweaters, so that the outline of their body is not readily evident?  And their heads are often covered, NOT in the same type of covering used by Muslimas, but certainly as a recognizable gesture that they are modest when in public.

RE your comment about women seemingly being subservient to men:  I've known numerous Muslimas who in no way are subservient to their husbands or other male family members or friends  AND they always wore head coverings - often even in their own homes.  The head covering to a Muslima does NOT convey subservience, but modesty, especially in public.

STEPH:  I wondered if you ever asked your female doctor why she referred to herself as "Mrs. Dr.?"  Many years ago, my Primary care Dr. was a fellow from India.  I really appreciated the way he took care of me and my son.  And I always teased him about NOT telling me anything that he would NOT want his wife to hear, since I knew her well, too, and could easily check with her about any suggestions he made.  He always laughed, but was enormously clear about his comments to me.

Recently, I caught a glimpse of the Queen of Jordan on a TV interview.  Perhaps that was the person of whom you spoke?  Indeed, she is a truly beautiful woman, well educated in the West and an avid supporter of bringing about the best education and health care to Jordan's population as possible.  She does an enormous amount of local AND international work in those areas, following closely in the footsteps of the Queen Mother (Queen Noor - an American and widow of the late King).  Both the current Queen and the Queen Mother have always been aware of the wide range of cultural norms in Jordan, being sure to dress appropriately.  However, the Queen Mother also enjoyed riding a motorcycle with her late husband and there are numerous photos published in the West of her dressed appropriately for that sport.

The former Shahbanu (Queen) of Iran, who maintains homes in Europe and the USA (as does the Queen Mother of Jordan) was also a well educated woman, who did enormous outreach to the citizens of Iran before departing the country in 1979 with her late husband (the Shah Mohamed Reza Palavi) for refuge in Egypt, where he died and is buried.  By the way, the wife of the current President of Egypt, Suzanne Mubarak, is also Western educated and enormously busy with her own charity work, but dresses modestly in public.  Often when she visits rural areas in Egypt, her head is covered with a scarf.  She does NOT wear a burka, of course, but she dresses modestly.  So even at the top levels of government, Muslimas have a sense of what is appropriate and acceptable in dress and manner.  And in my experience, even Muslimas who may be soft-spoken with strangers and offer an especially soft handshake to other women still have sharp minds that are moving at a fast-clip.

Mahlia

[maryz]

I would question that women are completely equal to men in the US - they still command only $0.83 in salary to a man's $1.00.  But I know what you mean, Ella.

My friend from Turkey did not wear a head covering.  It was always my understanding that head coverings or the burqa were cultural and related to village or tribal custom and not required by Islam.  There is a Christian denomination in our area (The Church of God of Prophecy) where the women always wear dresses, usually in pastel colors, mid-calf, no make-up or jewelry, and usually what I can only call "big hair" (don't mean that in a derogatory manner - just can't think of another way to describe it).  They are instantly recognizable in a store or on the street.  I guess that's a similar sort of  clothing tradition.

[straudetwo]

Mahlia,  you have provided a great deal oof information on Islam and on some of the practices of its adherents, and mounted a vigorous defense of the veil. 
It is gratifying to learn that women, educated women as you stressed, have attained positions of importance and, probably, a modicum of material success - albeit out of the glare of the limelight, without fanfare,  unbeknownst the the masses,  while deferring at home to the master of the house.  And in the circumstances of a Muslim country that is as it should be.

But we in this country are not alone in being not so much  "confused" as alienated by the concept of women obligated to wear a veil,  an abaya, or a burqa (also burka) in a Western country.

Several European countries are wrestling  increasingly with this very problem:
The Muslim population is large.France has been trying for some time to ban the wearing of a veil in schools.  Millions of Algerians  (and Moroccans) who hold French citizenship have come to the homeland; thousands are without work,  living  in congested, segregated tenements outside Paris, where violence has broken out and cars se aflame in the recent past. 
 
The Netherlands has been  accommodating toward Muslims, a muslima sat in the Dutch cabinet a few years ago.   I don't remember her name off hand, but she has since come to this country, in fear of her life.  She works in Washington.
There has been bloodshed o the Netherlands (also calaled HollandO) and tensions persist.
Germany has the most liberal immigration laws - no doubt to atone for the horrors of the Holocaus, which are a permanent stain on its history. 

Turkish  "guest workers" were "imported" first when Germany's economic miracle began in the  mid 1950s.  On  my frequent visits to Europe I've been in the streetcar with Turkish women and their children, sitting silently by themselves,  not making eye contact, the women with a usually brown headscarf, not a hair in sight, lovely young faces, wearing  a long  raincoat even on sweeltering  summer days.  Turkish families were easy to spot In the traffic-free shopping  zones : the wife g trailing a few paces behind the husband and the children.

There are large communities in all major German cities, and a large numbe of mosques was built for them - some absolutely stunning edifices.

BTW,  In Turkey herself, which is a Muslim coutry with a secular government, there have been outbreaks of violence over the head scarves for school girls, and suicides by girls.  That was in fact the subject  of a bestseller, Snow,  by Orhan Pamuk, Nobel Prize winner in 2006.  The author got in trouble with the government, was sentenced but eventually freed.
Turkish journalists holding opinions similar to his were assassinated, ad Pamuk himself left the country and came here.  He teaches at Clolumbia.

Incidentally, we have discussed Snow in this forum in 2006, and it, too, can be found in the Archives.


Mosques were built also in Switzerland, where Muslim immigrants have married local girls, thus acquiring Swiss citizenship.  A political controversy arose last year over the number of minarets to be built in the country, and voters went to the polls to vote on a referendum in November og 2009. 

Yet there has not been the hoped-for  "integration" of Muslims into the fabric of the society of the country in which they live and work.  Eactly that was recently the topic in Germany when the 20th anniversary of German unification was celebrated.  What has disturbed and horrified the native population of Germany, for example,  is the continuation of an old tradition; the so-called "honor killings" of Muslim girls who become too Westernized for their family's tastes,
Severe beatings come first. Sometimes the girls run away to shelters. The killers are usually family members, brothers and the father, avenging the dishonor brought on to the family.  They readily admit the killing but show no remorse. 

To the consternation of the body politic in Britain and in Germany,  Muslims groups are demanding that Muslims be tried not by the law of the land i which they live, but by the Sharia, the divine Muslim law.

Back in this country : The school districts in Cambridge, Mass. has announced that The Festival of Sacrifice, Eid-al Adha, will be a recognized holiday next year.

I have not mentioned the history of the spread of Islam after the death of the Prophet in 632 which was one of expansion and warfare.  Time is too short to elaboragte, but I wrote a paper about that at university, many years before coming to this country. 

Mahlia, may I assume then that, since your husband is Egyptian, you are a convert to Islam and have a fair knowledge of Arabic ?

[FlaJean]

I lived in Morocco (the formerly French Morocco) for almost three years in early 1960s.  The women wore what they called a Jelaba (a hooded long outer garment almost always gray) with a veil across the lower part of the face.  My "fatima", Lala, came dressed that way but the minute she was inside she, of course, removed those garments.  Her regular clothing consisted of mid-calf skirts and loose blouses.  Most of the Jelabas were a gray color.

When we visited Tangiers in the formerly Spanish area, I was surprised to see all the women in white Jelabas.  A sea of white wherever you looked.

Lala, had a baby boy shortly before she started working in our home but later was divorced by her husband when he remarried because she objected to his new wife.  He took the baby and she had no recourse in the courts.  Of course, this was almost 40 years ago and so perhaps life is much different there now.

[CallieOK]

Mahlia,  Although I grew up in a small, very conservative town in southeastern Oklahoma, my personal upbringing and adult experiences have been amazingly ecumenical and multi-cultural.   I assure you that I am very much in favor of showing respect for cultural norms and harbor no criticism whatsoever about those that differ from my own.

A Book Club I belonged to read and discussed "Reading Lolita in Tehran" several years ago.  I think it was the first time any of us realized that Muslim women dress like "westerners" underneath the burqua.

[Persian]

ELLA - my pleasure!  Yes, it would be great if we could all bring a cup of tea and gather together for a face-to-face chat.  The only time I've ever had a chance to meet some of the folks in these discussions and the former SN was at a gathering in Washington DC when I lived there years ago.  It was great and I surely enjoyed the fellowship.  I think we sat down for a meal at a lovely restaurant on the Wharf along the waterfront near the Potomac River.

FYI: The word Muslima refers to one woman; Muslimas is plural.

TRAUDEE:  "But we in this country are not alone in being not so much  "confused" as alienated by the concept of women obligated to wear a veil,  an abaya, or a burqa (also burka) in a Western country."

I agree wholeheartedly that there is confusion and discomfort among non-Muslims about Muslimas wearing the veil in Western countries.  However, I have always looked at that concept as a personal choice.  And, of course, it is the right of any free country to consider their regulations about public behavior and as we see/read about in France, whether a certain type of dress is acceptable.

However, I have also listened as Muslimas have quietly wondered whether it would be acceptable for them to pose the idea that Christian women should give up wearing a crucifix on a chain around their necks in public.  So there are questions on both sides RE customs acceptable to some, but questionable (and uncomfortable) to others.

You have posted some REALLY impressive info about customs in various world regions and we can all learn from that.    Even though we are on limited time here, it's almot  like sitting and learning together in the same room.    It was also great of you to remind us that indeed we did discuss Pamuk's SNOW a few years ago.  As I recall, there were also some wonderful shared thoughts in that group discussion, too.  Many thanks!

And in response to your inquiry about my own religious affiliation:  NO, I am NOT a convert to Islam.  I became interested in the Middle East and its broad range of cultures when I was 4 years old and received my very first children's Bible, which included maps of the ancient world.
I began to read, learn, asked tons of questions (which I still do today), and generally developed a more indepth interest as I grew older.  In my teenage years, I wrote papers on the region for my HS classes, talked with fellow students from other world regions whom I met in school, and eventually met professional academics when I worked at Montana State University and then spent 25 years at the University of Maryland (UMCP).  While at the latter institution, I created a series of programs on American Culture & Society for international visiting scholars and graduate students, continued to lecture publicly on various topics of the Middle East, and was invited to Iran as a Visiting Lecturer.  I worked closely with Middle Eastern (and other) embassies in Washington, got to know some of their senior officers and had a wonderful opportunity to learn more about their countries and cultures.  After I retired from UMCP, I served as the Cultural Liaison Officer at the Egyptian Educational Bureau in Washington DC and at several other USG agencies, where I was primarily assigned to work with visitors from world regions.  I also was invited several times to lecture to military officers from the Middle East to help them learn more about the USA.  So a lot of my learning experiences have been hands on with folks from many global regions.  My husband teases me frequently that although he is an Egyptian Muslim, I know more about Islam and Egypt than he does!  I respond that every time he says that, he has to increase my chocolate ice cream allowance!

Several of the Jewish women in our area (including a Rabbi) have reached out to multifaith communities to include folks in their holidays AND encourage anyone who might be interested in learning about other faiths to reach out to the Muslim community.  When I lived in Maryland, many of the synagogues and mosques did the same thing during annual holidays and offered the opportunities to many folks to learn about customs, cultures and religions outside of their own.  I recall one area of our former County where there was a gorgeous Budist temple built near a well established synagogue and only a few blocks away from a Christian church.  The congregations in all 3 interacted with each other for holidays, study groups, studies of each other's scriptures and customs.  REALLY great community spirit!

MARYZ - I agree that women in the USA have a way to go before they, too, are considered totally equal with men in the employment sector (especially regarding their incomes), but also in many regions of the country.  For example, before relocating to the American South several years ago, I didn't realize that women are often treated as unfairly as I've read about in the local papers here.  The brutality of physical (often sexual) attacks is described in details in many of the news reports  and regularly refer to female children, teenagers and adult women being injured, kidnapped and often killed.

The modest style of dress and appearance of some of some of the women in your area reminds me of the customs of the elder Mormon women I recall reading and seeing in news photos years ago, but also of the women today who belong to "break-away" sects from what used to be historical Mormon families.  I recall the phrase "band of sisters" which references several women married to the same man and raising numerous children sired by that one man within the "home" he provided for ALL of them. 

CALLIE - I'm definitely with you RE being respectful about folks of many different backgrounds.
I had to smile about your comment RE the clothing many Muslimas wear underneath their outer garb.  I have been invited several times to social gathering with Muslimas in their homes where there are absolutely no men present and the women are truly dressed in "high fashion" - clothing, jewelry and hair styles that one would envision as the latest Hollywood fashions or those purchased by enormously wealthy women.

Several of our local friends and a couple from one of the local Methodist churches where I have lectured in the past traveled to Egypt during the past few years.  When they returned home, they described their trips, which were often the "typical" adventures designed for Westerners.
But a couple of them also spoke of seeing women in downtown Cairo dressed in very tight blue jeans, nails beautifully manicured with bright polish, eyebrows plucked professionally and the red lipstick which could be seen for blocks.  I truly had to laugh, as that is the fashion of my husbands students at his home university.  The older faculty do not like this "flashy" modern style of dress, but many of the young female students just lower their eyes, smile gently and move along.  Of course, there are more moderately dressed female students, too.

FLAJEAN - I don't know too much about Morocco, but your comments sound familiar from my own reading.  It is indeed sad that your fatima lost her baby - that was surely true heartbreak for her.  But in the age-old tradition of marriage in Islam, the husband had the right to remove the child - especially a boy - after the baby stopped nursing (or the husband found a surrogate for him).  Sad, but common in those days and sometimes even today in the extremely traditional home environments if there is unpleasantness about a husband taking multiple wives.

It's been a great conversation.  Thanks for inviting me to participate.  How long will this discussion continue?  I'm scheduled for a medical procedure on Thursday.

Mahlia

[Steph]

Mahlia, thanks for so much information.. Yes it was the Queen of Jordan who was on Today a few weeks ago. I guess I will never ever really understand the concept of the man in a pair of shorts and tshirt and the woman in a headscarf, long sleeves,long skirt,, and sometimes gloves at Disney.. At least the Amish both dress in a prescribed fashion. They are perhaps the people I know best who behave and dress in a particular way. The Amish also would not even consider asking or pursuading anyone to behave in any fashion. They simply hold onto their style of life for many reasons..

[Persian]

When we lived in Maryland, there was a wonderful Amish market not far from our home.  Thus, we were able to enjoy the fresh foods, delicious breads, beautiful cuts of meats, homemade desserts and many other products.  It was a family/community run affair, so many of the young adults were right up front willing to help find a product.  Big smiles, gracious greetings and "come back soon," was ALWAYS the exit line.  And we surely did.  The Amish folks I've met and interacted with are truly a special group of folks!

I understand the confusion RE the way traditional Muslimas dress in public.  Certainly in an environment like Disney, it would have been unusual to see the couple you mention, but, Hey, everyone to their own preference.  The traditional cultural reason for Muslimas to dress this way is to protect their physical privacy.  Some of the Muslimas are truly beautiful and their husbands jealous as all get-out if they are in public.  Other fellows just encourage their wives to dress modestly without getting into a big argument about it.  And many Muslimas I've known make their own choices about how much to cover-up in public (or NOT), recognizing that modesty in one's manner is equally as important as covering one's body!

I noticed Queen Noor was also scheduled last night for the Charlie Rose show, which follows the BBC news late in the evening in our area.  I wanted to watch her on the program, since she was talking about some projects she had helped to support in the Tribecca area of NY, but couldn't stay awake long enough.  I did see a couple of minutes of the early part and she is still as lovely as always AND still deeply involved in a wide range of international projects worldwide, as well as those she has undertaken in the USA.

Mahlia

[Persian]

Oops - forgot to add the link below to an interesting story in PARADE MAGAZINE RE Muslim families from Iraq who relocated to the USA - especially Lincoln, NE - and found a truly warm welcome and community support to help them heal the ravages of the earlier Gulf War.  What struck me the most was how wonderfully these families were treated by longtime residents and encouraged to begin their lives again in a safe and welcoming environment in the USA.

http://www.parade.com/news/2010/10/10-from-the-mideast-to-the-midwest.html


Mahlia

[Ella Gibbons]

Thanks, PERSIAN.  Modesty, privacy.  Reasons for a headscarf!  What's with the hair - it's immodest?  I don't understand, probably never will, but America, fortunately, has religious freedom and the freedom to dress as you please.  And we are so very lucky to be born and to be American citizens.  How difficult it must be to be an immigrant.

We had a Somalian couple buy a condo in my development and they lived there a couple of years.  I assume they were Muslims as the woman dressed in the burkha and head scarf.  The husband was ill and never came out much; none of them were friendly.  The daughter wore tight jeans and shirts as any American teenager would; the son, who was older, dressed traditionally in a long white blousy shirt.  A neighbor asked the son why he did not help his mother and sister getting the weak father into the car, he said royally that was women's work.

Well, you know how that went over in our neighborhood!  

Women's work and men's work are very different in a Muslim household from what we read.  But as the American Muslims assimilate into our society their young folk may have a tendency, in some households, to change.

[Ella Gibbons]

We discussed Queen Noor's autobiography some years ago, it is in our Archives also.

[JoanP]

Thank you so much for all of your valuable information, Mahlia - first hand accounts - we couldn't ask for a more knowledgeable guide.  Yesterday, mid day, I was driving by the mosque on Leesburg Pike, which you quite likely have visited.  The mid-day crowd of those attending prayer services at that mosque is so large, there are at least three policemen directing the traffic there. Clearly attendance is growing in that area.  All of the women have their heads covered, no surprise as they are attending a religious service.  Remember the old days when you always covered your head when entering a Catholic church?  Even if we didn't have a hat or a veil, we would use a bobby pin to hold a Kleenex on our heads.  When did that change, I wonder?  Today, no one wears a hat in Church - except the rare Easter bonnet.

I was in a shop near to that mosque yesterday.  There was a teenage girl with a fairly large head covering...and then from the back, she was wearing cut-off shorts and some skin was showing at the middrift. Do you think this is a sign of change among the young, Ella?

[Persian]

ELLA - Ah, yes, THE HAIR!   I cannot remember a public lecture (regardless of group size) in which someone has not asked "What about the womens' hair?  What's the BIG DEAL?"  Now in the USA, folks (especially younger ones) tend to focus on a woman's bosom, long/slender legs or buttocks (especially provocative in extra tight jeans), but THE HAIR is usually a major focus for folks who are NOT familiar with Muslimas covering their head.

To a Muslima, her hair is considered to be her "shining glory," a major part of her beauty and NOT to be shown off outside her family.  If she has the funds, taking care of her hair is one of her major expenditures and ALWAYS looks beautiful. But only her immediate family are able to view her head uncovered.  And in many households, the women will cover their head as they rise in the morning and wear a head covering ALL DAY. 

Many times younger girls will also cover their hair as a sign of modesty as they learn about their family's religious customs.  At that younger age, covering the hair is often taught as a sign of personal modesty.

Many Muslimas (especially young ones, have VERY long hair and it takes a lot of care to keep it healthy.  When women get together, it is often for some type of "personal care" party, including hair styling.  Sometimes the effort is lavish, other times very simple, depending on the funds available, the women involved and the time available.  As the women age, their hair may be styled shorter, but they still continue to devote an enormous amount of time to their hair care.
Their efforts remind me of the French women I've known, many of whom spend equal time, funds and efforts to make sure their hair is well tended.  I've NEVER known a French woman or a Muslima (from any country) who has what I would describe as "fly away" hair.

My impression RE the young Somali man you mentioned would be that in speaking to an American, he wanted to present the best possible depiction of his "masculinity" and thus responded in a manner which he thought would indicate that he could not be bothered with less than masculine (to his way of thinking) manners.  I've known a lot of African men in the USA, especially when I was at USAID's Africa Bureau in Washington, who had excellent manners and went out of their way to help others.  The Bureau was not staffed by Diplomats, of course, but folks who represented various levels of African interests, countries, regions, etc.  I don't speak the Somali languages, but if I'd been your neighbor asking the young man why he didn't help his father and he responded to me, I would have BARKED at him  in Swahili (which is a very common language in Africa) saying "HE IS YOUR FATHER!  EXTEND YOUR HAND TO HELP!"

The seeming unfriendliness of the family may simply have been a language issue - perhaps the parents did not speak English - or the concern for the father's health may have overtaken their interest in getting to know neighbors, especially if there were no other Somalis in the community.


JOAN - my pleasure to share in this discussion.  I  smiled at your comment about pinning a Kleenex to your head in church.  I've never done that, but always covered my head when attending a Catholic church and still do so today.  The Irish side of my family (paternal) were Catholics and that tradition still applies.  For example, when I am in a Catholic church, I always dip my fingers in the water as I enter, walk to the pew, kneel slightly, enter the pew,  go to my knees immediately - NEVER sitting down first - say my prayers with my Grandmother's rosary in hand, which rests on top of my large family Bible at home when not in use - THEN take my seat in the pew.

I know the Leesburg Pike mosque very well and have friends that live in the area.  There also used to be some REALLY good Middle Eastern bakeries in that area, which we enjoyed.

Wearing hats in church in the USA seems to be a regional and/or perhaps age custom, as well as cultural.  Whenever I've been invited to speak or be part of a panel at an African-American church on Sunday, the women have ALL worn hats.  And some REALLY beautiful ones.  When we moved from Maryland to our local home in NC, I packed two hats (both long-time possessions from Nieman Marcus) because I knew that the AA churches in this area would be even more traditional than those I'd become accustomed to in the metropolitan Washington area.  Sure enough, one of the first programs I was invited to was in a big AA church.  I wore a beautiful wide brimmed black hat with a gorgeous gold and purple plume across the front.  I think many of the women asked more questions about my hat than they did about my remarks!

After living in the American South for several years, I've learned firsthand that women's and men's work hereabouts is also quite different than what I am accustomed to.  I always laugh (silently, of course) when I hear some women talk about "not wanting to chip their nail polish" so they don't do some household chores.  And I'd never heard of a "Honey Do List" until we relocated to the South!  On the other hand, men from other countries CAN learn quite easily to do household or yard chores which they would not have experienced in their home countries.

For example, my husband (an Egyptian Muslim university professor of Humanities) spent this morning cleaning the drains in our bathroom (sink, commode and bathtub).  Now he's off to vacuum the basement with one of his new toys (a wet/dry vacuum). I don't think he would do this in Egypt.  Gotta love the guy!

Mahlia

[mrssherlock]

Erotica varies from culture to culture.  Medieval Japanese considered the back of a woman's neck to be especially provocative.

[Babi]

 The subject of the Muslimas seems to have captured a lot of interest here.
Well, since all our posters just now are women, that's natural enough.
If one point comes across more clearly to me than anything else, it's that
it's useless to try to describe any group of people as all being this or
that.  People within every nation, religion, culture....they're different, they're
individuals.  Putting labels on them just keeps us from seeing what's really
there.
  There's still the rest of the day for commentary.  Tomorrow we start the
topic of the origins of body decoration....tattoos and scarification. Since
our grandchildren's generation has plunged into the whole scene almost
wholesale,  maybe this will give us a clue.   
  Mahlia, your Thursday is free, but do come back and join us as you can.
I'm sure no medical procedure is going to keep you down for long!  Thanks
for your responses to all our questions.  We don't often have an expert on
tap, and it surely does help.

[Persian]

My thanks to the HEAD HONCHO (BABI) who invited me and all the posters who shared interesting questions and comments.  That's what learning is all about, right?  Sharing!

Mahlia

[JeanneP]

All enjoyable reading above but we as Westerners will not understand lots of the ways of the East.  Freedom of Choice is what we Like. Culture is fine. I enjoy seeing people follow their beliefs but they should have the choice of  Following  it or not. Most religions have this choice.
 
To me is seems that there are no choices in the Muslem religion.  In the Jewish you can be Orthodox and follow strict rules. Some still wear the wigs. have the food laws but then there are 2 other choices.  Many now seem to be Conservative.  The young will be mostly that. Many intermarriages now. Three of my daughters friends have married Jewish men in the last 3 years.  Look 20 years ahead and Judisiam will have many changes.

I live close to a Amish area and they also have the choice prior to the age of 18 they can decide. Follow the "Plain " or the English as they call it here.  No force.

Comes to Christianity one can be any the want.  (To many different ones I think).

But Muslim.  I could be wrong but I have read about what can happen if a women goes out without head covered.  Does not cover herself fully as they show in some areas. (Burkos)?

 Cannot be seen talking to any man without a male along with her.  Stoned if said to have had affair.  They are not all given the choice of Education.  I would say that a good 75% of the women still come under these rules.

I know we in our countries have gone to far with the way women dress and how much they show.  Our young women are given a choice and really not used it right.  Moral really needs to change back some.  Can blame lots of this on the TV. Movies, Etc.  This was not what the women who fought for Equal rights meant it to be like.