Author Topic: Poetry Page  (Read 725127 times)

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3880 on: June 28, 2016, 11:32:36 PM »
Our Poetry Page Reads
Shakespeare Sonnets


2016 the world commemorates
400 years since the death of William Shakespeare.



April, 1616. A man died, but a legacy was born; one which proved
so essential not only to the development of
drama and literature, but to language, to thoughts and ideas.


A Sonnet a Day
July 1, till December 1,
We read in order, from 1 to 154
A Shakespeare Sonnet each day.


Welcome
Please share your comments about the day's Sonnet.

Link: First Post of Our Discussion on July 1


Shakespeare Anniversary Links
Discussion Leaders: Barb

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3881 on: June 29, 2016, 06:15:27 AM »
Scroll down about 9 or 10 posts for the start of
 Shakespeare's Sonnet a Day

to post number #3890



Not a horror story fan, I never read H P Lovecraft. I had Call of the Cthulhu on my Kindle but trashed it when I discovered he was a horror writer. What a surprise to see he also wrote poetry. Must investigate further. 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3882 on: June 29, 2016, 09:13:14 AM »
Frybabe He did a couple of books of poetry but yes, most of his published work is horror stories - here is another of his poems

A Garden
By H. P. Lovecraft

There’s an ancient, ancient garden that I see sometimes in dreams,
Where the very Maytime sunlight plays and glows with spectral gleams;
Where the gaudy-tinted blossoms seem to wither into grey,
And the crumbling walls and pillars waken thoughts of yesterday.
There are vines in nooks and crannies, and there’s moss about the pool,
And the tangled weedy thicket chokes the arbour dark and cool:
In the silent sunken pathways springs an herbage sparse and spare,
Where the musty scent of dead things dulls the fragrance of the air.
There is not a living creature in the lonely space around,
And the hedge-encompass’d quiet never echoes to a sound.
As I walk, and wait, and listen, I will often seek to find
When it was I knew that garden in an age long left behind;
I will oft conjure a vision of a day that is no more,
As I gaze upon the grey, grey scenes I feel I knew before.
Then a sadness settles o’er me, and a tremor seems to start:
For I know the flow’rs are shrivell’d hopes—the garden is my heart!
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3883 on: June 29, 2016, 10:10:30 AM »
There is a certain nostalgic and melancholy about these two poems. He is looking back to try to find what once was that but is now in decay. Melancholy tends to appeal to me both in the poetry and in music, for some reason.

I read a short bio about Lovecraft. He was not a healthy child and suffered night terrors as well. A bit worse than your run of the mill nightmare, my Ex also suffered from them as a child. Both of Lovecraft's parents ended up in a mental institution. A very passive personality, he never gained the self-confidence to promote his works nor could he handle criticism. He died in poverty at the age of 46 of stomach cancer.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3884 on: June 29, 2016, 11:59:34 AM »
Ouch - I wonder if writing horror fiction goes hand and glove with reliving the feelings of being abandoned as a child - Poe was another whose father left immediately after he was born and his mother died when he was only 3 then he is separated from his brothers and sisters - sent to live with the Allen family - I'm not much for horror either - lots of southern horror stories - easy to imagine creepy scary stories when walking in the woods of the deep south - the vegetation is almost like a jungle and the thick canopy is a screen so the sun barely makes it in - but I think even in the small towns the long hot days and long hot summers caste a stillness that I miss now that Austin is so 'with it' - that stillness made day dreaming an easy pass time that if you have inner demons the stress and tensions I bet play out in your day dreams. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3885 on: June 29, 2016, 06:00:30 PM »
I haven't been in here for a while--missed some good stuff too.  Barb, were you giving us a quiz game by not giving the authors of some poems?  Post 3871 is surely Houseman, though I don't recognize the poem.

Post 3866, which Frybabe correctly identifies as Yeats, is The Second Coming, which I really like.  I profoundly disagree with his theory of cyclical history, which is the point he's making, but it's a magnificent description of the way the world seemed to be falling apart after WWI, and the closing lines are unforgettable:

"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3886 on: June 29, 2016, 06:34:13 PM »
Oh dear - hadn't thought - the words strung together was the focus admired - never thought of the author - Lovecraft because his writing verse is so out of character.

Down by the salley gardens is also Yeats. 3871

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; - Yeats

The Lover Tells of the Rose in His Heart - Yeats

We saw the last embers of daylight die - Yeats

I have looked upon those brilliant creatures, - Yeats

Have you ever stood in a woodland and closed your eyes, even for a few moments? - Karis Jade Petty of the Woodland Trust

The page finishes with Lovecraft.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3887 on: June 29, 2016, 07:18:43 PM »
Here is a lovely...


The salmon west leapt soft, spawned wild to sunset,
and the poaching lovers stood heron still in the foam
of the orchard, baited to catch some sound of home,
while no dog barked and no door slammed and no child shouted.
But poplar leaves clashed like cymbals in the thin wind that blew
and at last the moon boomed out of the apple-tree and the two
lovers drove into the amorous dusk
and swam like swans through the clamorous air. 


For PatH ;) by Isabella Gardner
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3888 on: June 29, 2016, 08:09:06 PM »
With the heading announcing a Sonnet a day some folks may be confused - yes, a Shakespeare Sonnet a Day starts on July 1 - less than 2 days from now...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3889 on: June 30, 2016, 12:12:36 PM »
I don't think I have ever popped in here.  I look forward to my introduction to Shakespeare!  Be back tomorrow July 1st.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3890 on: July 01, 2016, 03:59:40 AM »
Today we start - July 1 - Shakespeare's Sonnets - One a day - 154 Sonnets.

OK --- PLEASE - share YOUR reaction - we all have access to and can read the hundreds of analysis in books and web sites by the Shakespeare specialists and poetry gurus. We really do not need to repeat what we can all pour over first hand.

Pundits, soon after the death of Shakespeare started ruminating in their attempt to identify the lady Shakespeare was writing to or about. Some call her the 'Dark Lady' others the 'Secret Lady'. Please, let’s forget about doing the work of scholars who spent the greater part of their education and life coming to grips with how and for whom these Sonnets were created.

Instead, let’s enjoy these Sonnets for what they are - love poems - Make believe you are the recipient of the love expressed in these poems or the poem is describing a secret lover's impression of you.

We are not reading the Sonnets to identify theme or meter, interpretation or intention. Let's just enjoy the work of this gifted poet afresh, without any concern to the tons of material attempting to explain the work so that we do not lose the immediacy of the beauty expressed, the turn of phrase, so we can be astounded anew with the flow of thought and the lovers argument for accepting his love.

In these 154 Sonnets there are only three things the lover is expressing - the brevity of life, the fleetingness of beauty, and the trappings of desire.

Tell us about your first reaction – After your second read were you moved – Did you catch something you did not catch in the first reading - was there a particular phrase that caught you as you read - Then after your third read, what emotions within yourself did the poem touch. Did Shakespeare pull you in?  What did you find appealing about the 14 lines declaring an aspect of love - - -
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3891 on: July 01, 2016, 04:32:42 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet I


From fairest creatures we desire increase,
That thereby beauty's rose might never die,
But as the riper should by time decease,
His tender heir might bear his memory:
But thou, contracted to thine own bright eyes,
Feed'st thy light's flame with self-substantial fuel,
Making a famine where abundance lies,
Thyself thy foe, to thy sweet self too cruel.
Thou that art now the world's fresh ornament
And only herald to the gaudy spring,
Within thine own bud buriest thy content
And, tender churl, makest waste in niggarding.
    Pity the world, or else this glutton be,
    To eat the world's due, by the grave and thee.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v64ym0XqlqM
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3892 on: July 01, 2016, 07:48:58 AM »
I see this sonnet saying to make the best of life, and hope to leave a lasting impression after death.  Treat yourself with kindness, and enjoy what lies in the beauty of life.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3893 on: July 01, 2016, 09:30:03 AM »
Baptism of fire:

Good thing Barb said read the poems several times; on the first reading I found it very difficult.  A poetry textbook I have suggests that on the first reading, sometimes you have to concentrate on just working out which subjects go with which verbs, just straightening out the sentences in your mind, and that's certainly what I had to do here.  Then I could read it for a combination of beauty and meaning.  By the third reading, I had gotten to Bellamarie's conclusion.  Shakespeare is very specific in the way he wants his subject to make a lasting impression.  You are beautiful, he is saying, but your beauty will fade, and you will die, but if you have children, your beauty will live on in them, and the world will not be deprived of you.  A pretty thought indeed, and said in beautiful but difficult language.

I've peeked ahead.  The next few are easier.

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3894 on: July 01, 2016, 09:34:24 AM »
PatH.,  I think I read it at least 4xs, before even reading Barb's post about reading it several times.  It is amazing how you can read something over and over and see new things each time, although the main idea still pops out.  I liked this very much.  Gave me a serene feeling.

Barb,
Quote
We are not reading the Sonnets to identify theme or meter, interpretation or intention. Let's just enjoy the work of this gifted poet afresh, without any concern to the tons of material attempting to explain the work so that we do not lose the immediacy of the beauty expressed, the turn of phrase, so we can be astounded anew with the flow of thought and the lovers argument for accepting his love.

I like the fact we are going to read and "feel" the words rather than dissect, and analyze the sonnet. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Mkaren557

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3895 on: July 01, 2016, 10:55:22 AM »
I love to try to figure things out.  When I read Shakespeare, I find it takes several pages(or in this case sonnets) before I can read superficially and understand the gist of the poem.  So, here goes - - I have been attracted to so many men who are only focused on themselves with no room for anyone or anything else.  They see their legacy in the money they make or in the "hell they raise" even as they age.  While they are living, they bury all they have to give the world within their "bud"  The poem implies that they waste, I think, their lives, by making their whole world themselves.  It is like the Biblical image of hiding one's light "under a basket." My children and grandchildren will remember me, I hope, and will pass on part of me to future generations.  The reality is that beyond two generations few will even know who I was. 

JoanK

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3896 on: July 01, 2016, 04:19:18 PM »
Thanks for doing the work, BELLAMARIE  and PAT. I admit to being lost.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3897 on: July 01, 2016, 04:49:24 PM »
So glad I put Sonnet I up late last night - I just knew there would be some early birds - just got in and love how the poem touched each of you.

That is a lovely thought Bellamarie to stay with you for the day after reading the Sonnet - "Treat yourself with kindness, and enjoy what lies in the beauty of life." Nice - it is often difficult to treat yourself with kindness when you are concerned about mistakes and being valued by others - a good reminder isn't it. Wouldn't it be interesting to get ideas from each other how to treat ourselves with kindness - hmmm

Ah PatH yes, these Sonnets do take a couple of reads don't they - I think part of the reason is the now archaic ways people expressed themselves - after all these were written over 400 years ago and where we admire Shakespeare's skill with language and sentence structure some of how he writes is archaic to us today. So it takes a bit but then most folks suggest all poems only give up their depths with repeated reads as you found reading this Sonnet. 

Words for all moms - we too easily forget moms were beautiful maidens whose beauty is being passed on through the ages - "You are beautiful, he is saying, but your beauty will fade, and you will die, but if you have children, your beauty will live on in them, and the world will not be deprived of you."

I guess here we can ruminate what is beauty - Is it opinion on looks - is a beautiful soul one that easily pleases because others feel good in the presence of a soul they understand - there are so many way we express beauty - in our appearance, dress, manners, kindnesses, writing, the very script we use to write - on and on - then the qualities of curiosity and artistic expression and even diligence can all express beauty - wow - we are surely gifted aren't we.

I am glad Bellamarie that PatH said what you needed to hear so that serenity was your reaction - nice.

Mkaren you see another idea - the idea that some men "...are only focused on themselves with no room for anyone or anything else." And their legacy is in their financial wealth or, I love how you said this  "the "hell they raise" even as they age" - the "bud" is their living burial - almost sounds like a compost pile that feeds on itself - I wonder if like a compost pile their wealth and behavior assists others - their behavior could be a lesson couldn't it - and then to wrap it up with their "bud" is hiding "under a basket" - but the great thought you have about your children and grandchildren remembering you - yes! You probably can add to that Mkaren, that your DNA will go on for eternity and so where a conscious memory of your face and connection to you may pass your DNA continues and I bet there are even habits and ways you always do things that are unconsciously picked up and passed along as well.

Words strung into phrases - this is grand how we each focus on different words or different phrases and something within pops into focus - love it...

I must say my first reaction which was the other day rather than this morning - was confusion - I had never read all the Sonnets and never in order - had this wild expectation that they were going to tell a logical story of the progression of love - And I thought - Holy Hannah a boy meets girl and right off the bat he says "From fairest creatures we desire increase," well - I was just not prepared for so bold a thought stated upon first meeting a girl - shoot, talk of increase was not something I remember talking about till marriage was on the table.

Well I did not think to peek ahead and decided maybe there was not a progression of girl meets boy - and maybe there are various aspects of love that will be the feature of each Sonnet - that was when I found Michael Ball singing from the play Aspects Of Love and had the entire musical from Youtube playing while I put together the posts.

And so, right or wrong about the future Sonnets I calmed down and read it through several times - I struggled to even make sense of the last two lines that in a Sonnet are supposed to resolve the problem or theme of the first 12 lines - I struggled and struggled - looked up words and got a gest of it but nothing smooth - I sorta pick up that he is berating himself for what he sees as selfish, taking her beauty in order to add to the future, part of himself - Not sure I like this conclusion - because I do not see having children as taking a women's beauty unless we measure beauty as a human form untouched yet by life - well that could be another whole discussion but the conclusion I was reading into those last 2 lines did not bring Bellamarie's serenity.

But the two lines that I've been obsessing over - that I may yet memorize
"His tender heir might bear his memory:
But thou, contracted to thine own bright eyes,"


In particular the word tender - I have been rolling that word over in my mind contently since last night - I was choosing between a few graphics and looking again at the Chagall all I saw was tenderness - the colors, the movement of the figures and how they overlapped, and their hair, and the repeat of them in a small circular frame.

Then I thought how easy it is for us to feel and be tender with a baby and even with small animals or a sick person and then realization was like a rolling dust storm - to tend is part of the word tender - how long has it been since I tended my housecleaning with tenderness - washed a dish with tenderness - having so many mechanical helpers today I realized how easily I lost the ability to do my tasks with tenderness - I remember my grandmother drying each spoon so that it was as if she was polishing it and how she tenderly smoothed the laundry so that it practically ironed before it was dry. Then my thoughts went to how tenderness has not been part of my business - kindness, yes - but tenderness?

Then I found this great quote - "kindness reveals concern and respect for others. Tenderness bring inner peace and happiness to the heart."

And so for me reading the word 'tender' within the context of the line was an eye opener and brought me a new reverence for not only tenderness but the desire to think tenderly as I tend me, my relationships and my surroundings.     
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3898 on: July 01, 2016, 04:56:17 PM »
Joan you posted while I was busy typing away - ah - lost - love you came in and shared that you were lost reading the Sonnet.

Its OK to not have an understanding that makes sense - each Sonnet will bring you something and I know it sounds funny but you experienced being lost - great - of course you could get signals that would help as if you were lost like a map or maybe there is an expectation for understanding that just is not there - you can decide Joan -

In this discussion of Shakespeare's Sonnets we are not looking for a 'right' way only what hits you and how reading the sonnet makes you feel and if there was any phrase or word that you could grab onto or that had you daydreaming of other things - almost like looking at a painting or going to a Ballet while seeing dancers and hearing the music -

For an intellectual message we have many online and in books that have shared their educated impressions - we just do not need to add to the plethora of analysis - just your impressions -  No message or hidden story to uncover - just enjoy it and let us know what you enjoy.

I love it - lost - how often we are lost in our own life and our own thoughts...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3899 on: July 01, 2016, 06:00:23 PM »
MKaren, 
Quote
The reality is that beyond two generations few will even know who I was.
This I fear is true of all of us, and it makes me feel a little sad.  I like knowing a part of me will always exist in the bloodline (DNA) of my family.  And because I have faith in the afterlife, I know I will enjoy seeing those future generations, and maybe even send them a few little signals that will make them pause and wonder...... what/who was that?   :)

Barb, you made me smile, because I still rinse my dishes and silverware one by one before putting into the dishwasher, and I still fold my laundry a bit meticulously with tenderness and care.   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3900 on: July 01, 2016, 06:07:52 PM »
So today I went to Barnes and Noble because I had a settlement credit from them that was a part of a class action suit that was won.  It was a surprise in my email box, so off to spend it.  I carried around the Complete Works of William Shakespeare as I browsed the Inspirational section looking for a daily book of scriptures.  Well, needless to say I found the perfect 365 Moments of Peace for a Woman's Heart Reflections on God's Gifts of Love, Hope, and Comfort,  so I sat the Shakespeare book down and decided to buy it another time.  I just did not want to let loose of $20.00 right before going on vacation next week, and the credit was only $14.00 which almost covered the cost of the inspirational book.  I have a birthday coming up in July, so who knows my hubby may sneak back and buy it for me.  :)
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3901 on: July 02, 2016, 02:11:57 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet II


When forty winters shall beseige thy brow,
And dig deep trenches in thy beauty's field,
Thy youth's proud livery, so gazed on now,
Will be a tatter'd weed, of small worth held:
Then being ask'd where all thy beauty lies,
Where all the treasure of thy lusty days,
To say, within thine own deep-sunken eyes,
Were an all-eating shame and thriftless praise.
How much more praise deserved thy beauty's use,
If thou couldst answer 'This fair child of mine
Shall sum my count and make my old excuse,'
Proving his beauty by succession thine!
    This were to be new made when thou art old,
    And see thy blood warm when thou feel'st it cold.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3902 on: July 02, 2016, 02:21:17 AM »
At the risk of overkill - however, we are only reading the second Sonnet, so a repeat as a reminder - to read these Sonnets relaxed and settled, enjoy and comment as if these love poems were spoken to you.

We are not reading the Sonnets to identify theme or meter, interpretation or intention. Let's just enjoy the work of this gifted poet afresh, without any concern to the tons of material attempting to explain the work so that we do not lose the immediacy of the beauty expressed, the turn of phrase, so we can be astounded anew with the flow of thought and the lovers argument for accepting love.

In these 154 Sonnets there are only three things the lover is expressing - the brevity of life, the fleetingness of beauty, and the trappings of desire.

Tell us about your first reaction – After your second read were you moved – Did you catch something you did not catch in the first reading - was there a particular phrase that caught you as you read - Then after your third read, what emotions within yourself did the poem touch. Did Shakespeare pull you in?  What did you find appealing about the 12+2 lines declaring an aspect of love - - -
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3903 on: July 02, 2016, 05:53:45 AM »
I like this second sonnet. "Beauty" lives on in you children and in generations to come. Something of yourself is passed on to each new generation. I would like to think that it is speaking, also, of inner beauty.

The first sonnet I found somewhat incomprehensible, but then I didn't reread or concentration on picking it apart for meaning.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3904 on: July 02, 2016, 11:11:00 AM »
Bellamarie sounds like you made a choice from your heart using your store credit at Barnes and Noble. I too have a huge tome of Shakespeare's plays and actually find to enjoy a read I end up with a used copy of a single play so I can handle better the size of the book. My huge copy does not have the Sonnets included - for that I found on sale a lovely book filled with art work and pages of quotes from the plays along with the Sonnets. Not big like a coffee table book but something on that order.

Frybabe glad you came in and shared - yes, we are not picking these Sonnets apart - Inner beauty - to value inner beauty over or along side outer beauty - I wonder when we are young and courting if inner beauty crossed our mind or did we simply fall for someone who looked pleasing?


I wonder if we read these Sonnets when we were young adults if we would have been more consciously aware that we held the keys to the future - but then I realize when I had my children the concept of passing on a way of treating each other to the next generation was not even imagined - the only guidance for Moms, and he was not accepted by many was, Dr. Spock's Baby and Child Care.

Inner beauty was relegated to the churches. Some churches were about kindness to each other and others were about rooting out sin in ourselves and judging others.  The only real guidance for the future passed on from parent to child that I remember was to love the land.

I'll be back later - full day again... folks I've been helping roll into town today after their almost 1700 mile drive with their 3 children and a packed vehicle that is the 'stuff' they need for the next week till the moving van arrives. They must be exhausted...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Mkaren557

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3905 on: July 02, 2016, 01:36:59 PM »
I feel so blessed to have spent last week in Disney World with my two granddaughters, Violet , age 8,and Cordelia or Dilly, age 6.  In spite of temps in the 90s and humidity the same,  I watched those two little girls show unrestrained joy at what they were experiencing and seeing.  I remembered that I once felt that kind of joy, showed my emotions openly, and laughed until I cried just as those girls did.  Each time someone told me how much Violet looks and acts like me, it thrills me.  When Dilly pulled herself up to her full 40" and told the guide in Animal Kingdom that the cheetah my be the fastest animal on earth, but the fastest creature is the peregrine falcon, I knew I would live beyond my years.  Winters have taken their toll, my joints hurt all the time, and as Dilly told me, "You can't keep up with us because your legs are old.  But I will be forever young in my offspring, even when I am long forgotten.

JoanK

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3906 on: July 02, 2016, 05:40:13 PM »
Yes, MKaren. this second sonnet really speaks to us, doesn't it.

Interesting that he wrote it so young. And funny that his example of old age is forty! Many of us are twice that, but it's still true, except that we have more generations to express our "beauty" (whatever that is for each of us) through.

ginny

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3907 on: July 02, 2016, 06:18:13 PM »
That's beautiful, Karen. :)

As one who also can't keep up with the young ones, either, I thought that was glorious.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3908 on: July 02, 2016, 07:15:02 PM »
Oh what an experience to remember Karen - bet they pull out that memory with Grandma being with them years later when they have their children. Oh and a smart grandchild that is not afraid to tell it as it is - love it. Yes, the winters are not easy on the body - amazing how for 100s, no for 1000s of years - generation after generation folks lived and raised children in houses only heated by a fire - boggles the mind.

Read a book once - a novel - cannot remember the title but essentially this guy was telling his son how fortunate we are that we are here among the living because it means our ancestors lived through the plague of the Black Death - when you read how it wiped out over half of Europe and some suggest up to three quarters of the population it really is amazing isn't it that we are alive.

His example of old age at forty does sound young doesn't it Joan - men no longer go through their midlife crisis as early as 40 - more like mid fifties - just in our lifetime seems to me that the average age has extended - I'm thinking when we were young the age line was sixties - somehow 67 pops up in my vague memory and now it is mid 70s or at least last I looked. We sure do have more than our children to see as young extensions of ourselves. I guess that is what most men took pride in - having a son that was as strong and capable as they remember themselves. And yet, the idea of a 40 year old man who spends much of his time in the out of doors and has about 25 years of experiences seems more like a leader to me even if the body slows down.

Ginny you too see the enjoyment and wonders of youth in your good looking grandson - Loved the photo you shared of him working alongside his grand-dad in the field - I've enjoyed my grandsons but frankly till this poem I never thought of them as an extension of me - I do notice they share interests and abilities that we have in common - just never thought of it.

When the poem refers to his proud livery as being in tatters I was take up short - we forget how few changes of clothes our grandparents had in their closet and going back, how every piece of clothing in the seventeenth century was not only hand sewn but the very cloth was hand woven and so having one piece of clothing for years and years would have been usual. I've enjoyed looking at fashion through out history and the men's clothing for this time in history seems full, with lots of puffs, ruffs and ribbons that must have been for the titled where as, those who were retired soldiers or worked in a guild probably dressed more plainly.

I can only imagine this would be more typical of our young suitor.

I think my favorite line in this Sonnet is, "This were to be new made when thou art old" mostly because it reminds me of the recent photos on facebook of Ann with her great grandchildren. The Mom to these children is behind Ann and that is her granddaughter - isn't it wonderful... just amazing the similarities between all the girls and the boy looks so much like Ann's husband. Don't you just love the scrapped knees on both the children - reminds me of Ann and her scrappy abilities to live to the fullest.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3909 on: July 03, 2016, 04:17:35 AM »

Look in thy glass, and tell the face thou viewest
Now is the time that face should form another;
Whose fresh repair if now thou not renewest,
Thou dost beguile the world, unbless some mother,
For where is she so fair whose unear'd womb
Disdains the tillage of thy husbandry?
Or who is he so fond will be the tomb
Of his self-love, to stop posterity?
Thou art thy mother's glass, and she in thee
Calls back the lovely April of her prime:
So thou through windows of thine age shall see
Despite of wrinkles this thy golden time.
    But if thou live, remember'd not to be,
    Die single, and thine image dies with thee
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3910 on: July 03, 2016, 12:14:27 PM »
Another sonnet saying the same thing.  Is the poet addressing a man, or a woman?  In this one, the first part definitely refers to a woman, as does the last part, but lines 7 and 8 refer to a man.  In sonnet 2, no gender-specific pronouns are used toward the listener, though the proposed child is male.  In sonnet 1, "his" is used, but it doesn't refer to the listener, who is described more as you would describe a woman, but could be either.  Is Shakespeare applying his message to both sexes?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3911 on: July 03, 2016, 01:34:59 PM »
PatH, my take is he is pleading with a women - He is telling her to look into a mirror (glass) to ascertain now is the time to create another, who will be a new, fresh copy of the face in the mirror. Beguile (to enchant) the world rather than, being a women who is not so fair because she did not choose to be a mother (tillage of the husbandry) in spite of his fondness for her therefore, his "self-love" will be encased within himself as if a tomb and so, no posterity for him.

Interesting, since for the last three poems I had a sense that was making me uncomfortable that this line of wooing was rather selfish - almost like years ago how guys used to talk girls into early sex with the line 'if you love me' or 'you do not love me unless'. Today girls and boys do not hold the constraints of 50 and more years ago.  This Sonnet actually comes right out and says, it is 'his' "self-love" and since he is infatuated with her beauty and charm she is supposed to see the wisdom in coupling with him for the purpose of posterity.

Today's standards that line of logic seems crass and yet, when you read books on the history of marriage that was the reason for marriage - and when, as a child we learned about the seven sacraments of which marriage became one of them during the Council of Trent in 1547, the concept or rather purpose of a Roman Catholic marriage was just that; "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."

I remember that being such a big aha for me when we studied it because my father and his family were German Lutheran where as, my Mom and Grandmother were Catholic. My father's sister had nothing positive to say about my sister and I attending parochial school - ah so... memories. 

Hmmm just thought - wait, I do not want to go there - it is too easy to see and make the ties of Shakespeare's life experiences to his writing - again, others have done that Ad Infinitum so back to; "...the immediacy of the beauty expressed, the turn of phrase, so we can be astounded anew with the flow of thought and the lovers argument for accepting love."

So then he suggests as she looks into the mirror she can see her mother as in turn her mother can see you in herself which is reminding the mother of her youth or prime (April) which he suggests is her golden time and through her child that he wants her to create with him and despite her wrinkles this child will look as she does during this, her golden age.

Then the last two lines that are typically the retort that in this Sonnet seems to be more of the same, that if she dies single, (so marriage evidently goes along with this agreement for children) and so if she dies alone there will be no future image for her to see herself again.

This whole story line could be a metaphor to the creation of many initiatives. Youth could be the early aspects of a creative thought that if the idea is not matched with the 'tools' of creation than there is no prototype of the idea and it has no future.

There is a saying, we have more ideas than time to bring them to fruition and then, it is easy to bottle up bringing to life any idea as we grapple with how worthy the outcome of the idea - Like brainstorming where some, before they open their mouth want to judge if the idea has legs, is really just pie in the sky. Part of encouraging some to share their ideas is a similar argument, 'God gave you the capacity to think of these ideas and so you are playing judge over God's gifts'... and so forth. 

Of the three similar Sonnets this one appears to be laid out like a legal brief - and I wonder if the concept of looking in a glass was the suitor enticing with vanity. Seems to me that was one of the 'sins' of the time - wasn't this when Puritans were denouncing all the ribbons and bows on clothing and sumptuary laws and taxation dictated what folks were supposed to wear. And thinking on it, very few owned a mirrors. Yes, just looked it up - mirrors were by and large still imported from Venice although, there was Sir Robert Mansell’s glass house in London in 1625. The process of making a mirror was such they were rare until the seventeenth century. Hmm so this Sonnet including the concept of a mirror (looking glass) was as if today a Sonnet was written something to do with using a computer or really owning something even more rare because of its newness.

I keep forgetting Shakespeare was actually a product of the sixteenth century rather than the seventeenth century. He was born in 1564 although died in 1616 - knowing this is commemorating 400 years since his death I do not think I will ever forget the date of his death.

The line that had me laugh out-loud - the audacity - the archaic way of suggesting sex - "the tillage of thy husbandry" - oh Lordy... talk about keeping women in their place - they are the farm land that 'he' gets to till - yikes.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3912 on: July 03, 2016, 01:49:14 PM »
I get the feeling S. is addressing himself, i.e. talking to himself in the mirror - what's going on, man? Do you want to die alone having left no trail, no evidence (offspring) that you were here? Stop being so enamored of yourself (in your youth?) and get moving if you don't want to die alone with no one left who will remember you.

This sounds like my Croatian grandfather who thought if you weren't married by age 21 and didn't have kids right away, that you had missed the big boat and life was all over for you. (Note: When I was 12, I remember telling my Mom that I was never having kids and never getting married. I was right about the first part, and I married at 40. My brother must have taken this sonnet to heart - he had 5 children, so I figure he used up my quota and his, too! 👬👫🚶)

Mkaren557

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3913 on: July 03, 2016, 02:01:42 PM »
I have been wondering all day if my mother saw herself in me?  I think I saw myself in my father.  I can see him in my glass, but more importantly, I am like him in manner.  We both are introverts, love learning, slow moving, calm,  and patient.  My mother, a type A personality, extrovert, high strung woman, kept telling me I was like my father.  The older I get the more right she is. 

So thou through windows of thine age shall see
Despite of wrinkles this thy golden time.

I love these lines.

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3914 on: July 03, 2016, 03:42:22 PM »
I see this as an aging woman who looks into a mirror seeing the changes that have take place.  It seems the mother he is speaking of seems pretty to the outside world, yet is not so pretty inside of herself, regardless of how she has tried to renew her face.  Then he switches to speaking of the husband whom the wife disdains because he seems to be full of himself, and it will be noted when he dies.  And the next lines he goes back to the woman looking into the mirror seeing herself as her mother now that she has aged.  He speaks of her seeing her aging, the wrinkles that are there.  And he ends with a bit of a cryptic message saying, she will not be remembered when she is gone, and will die alone with no lasting memory.

It's a bit of a sad poem for me.  I see it as aging, dying and not leaving anything behind.

I see glimpses of my mother and father in myself. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
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Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3915 on: July 03, 2016, 06:55:05 PM »
Maybe S. was talking to one of his male cohorts rather than to himself. When I read it over a few times, it still seems like it is addressed to a man. In particular, the reference to "For where is she...whose ...womb disdains...thy husbandry" (read: sperm donor).

I wonder if it was common for men of that era to speak openly with one another about the progressive state of their lineage?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3916 on: July 03, 2016, 07:53:15 PM »
Don't you just love it - we all see the action in this poem a little differently than each other - I think that is exactly what good poetry does - they say we become the authors in that we bring to a reading our own history and viewpoints based in our life experiences - and that seems to filter down to the smallest detail - reading this 3rd Sonnet is exactly that - who we each see is talking and based on that we even can make an assumption of what is important.

Leah, I too wonder if men saw the birth of the children in light of lineage - I think there is something to that in that titled people sure made an issue over who was eligible to whom for a union of marriage that would further the family lineage and most important the families titles with all the perks that went with a title as well as the responsibilities to the king and in addition the family wealth.

I got a kick reading your earlier post about your Croatian Grandfather - he wasn't the only one - when I was young it was a race among the girls as to who could marry first and who would start their family first - girls attending collage were only their to earn their MRS rather than BA or BS.

Personally it never occurred to me that my children were bits of me - I think I've always prized independence that I could only imagine my children as independent beings from the time the were in their highchairs. Only now that I see photos of the grandboys do I see similarities and also what amazes me is how many of my interests are their interests. That really shocks me - that many of the things I like to do they seem to be naturally good at and keep that interest. 

Interesting Bellamarie you see a conversation going on in the poem and a women who sees herself age and it not as pretty inside that she cannot hide by renewing her face. And a husband full of himself that his wife sees as unworthy behavior. And sad of all that the women will die alone and not leave any memory of herself.

Oh yes, agree, that is sad. Sad thing when we do not feel worthy ourselves and are judging ourselves as not pretty on the inside and of course how we see ourselves is how we see others therefore her husband could only be seen as unworthy because if it wasn't one reason like being full of himself it would be another. And to feel that alone - how easy it is for folks to feel removed even from a loving God. There are many who live a life all alone but never feel lonely and others who live alone but feel loved - but to live lonely and without love - ouch - if prayers are heard it seems these are the people that need our prayers and it is Shakespeare's poem that helps to bring that message to us.

Karen, it is true isn't it how we are often a combination of our parents and our personality seems to favor one or the other. I find it difficult since my life is so different than the life my parents lived and their trials brought out different characteristics. It sounds like your parents had opposite personalities.

And yes, the one line especially "So thou through windows of thine age shall see" such a lovely way of saying time passes - "windows of thine age" - lovely imagery in those few words.

That last line "Die single, and thine image dies with thee." I was imaging hearing the beginning of Beethoven's 5th when that line is said - dada da dooom  - or something that came from the pen of Mozart when writing his Requiem Mass - wow talk about drama...

Well - little did I know - as of tomorrow the Sonnet and art work will be in a different format - I was using a table and it turns out that Joan and PatH, have their connection so that the print is very large that enables an easier read - when showing even a small size graphic it grows huge when the computer is set up that way and pushes away the space for the the poem so that it is one word below the next word for the entire poem - can you just imagine how maddening that must be.

So now I know never to have a photo, if I want it to be seen, to be more than 300+ but less then 400 pixels in width or else all wording is shoved aside - and it is better not to combine two sides of a table because one side becomes so big it shoves to oblivion the other side - with all of that - if you followed - means the starting tomorrow the Sonnet will appear with a bit of a change in format so everyone can see it easily. -- I'm off to watch my Sunday night shows on PBS...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3917 on: July 04, 2016, 02:57:18 AM »
For those who see Sonnet IV about a man as "thy beauty's legacy"

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3918 on: July 04, 2016, 03:05:54 AM »
Definitions of a few words used in Sonnet IV

bequest - a legacy.
niggard - a stingy or ungenerous person.
largess - generosity in bestowing money or gifts upon others.
usurer - a person who lends money at unreasonably high rates of interest.
executor - a person who produces something or puts something into effect.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3919 on: July 04, 2016, 03:20:47 AM »
Our Sonnet for today - Sonnet IV - is on the next page where it will be easier to refer to as you write your comments -
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe