Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society - by Shaffer & Barrows

[pedln]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

The year is 1946.  Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war."  Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one  that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war.

Imagine a book club in a place where there is not a single book store! This is exactly what Mary Ann Shaffer and her niece, Annie Barrows have done as they draw us into  the engaging relationship betweeen Juliet Aston and the  Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society.  Perhaps their story explains the popularity of book clubs everywhere.

Discussion Schedule: Feb. 1-7   *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946 Feb. 8-14    *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946 Feb. 15-21   *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946 Feb. 22-28     *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946

Topics for Discussion during Week 1

1. What did you learn about Juliet Ashton  from the exchange of letters? Is she real to you or a ficticious character?
2. What was it about Charles Lamb that attracted Dawsey Adams to his work? 
3. What part did Elizabeth McKenna play in the creation of the literary society? 
4. Why does Mrs. Maugery hesitate to have the Society participate  in Juliet's article on the society for the Times? 
    What do you think finally convinced her to approve of the interviews?
5. What do their reading choices reveal about the personalities of the members of the Society?  What do your own choices  reveal about you?
6. What did you learn about the German occupation of Guernsey in these pages?  How do you think the Islanders managed to survive the   occupaton for five years? 
7. "Reading good books ruins you for enjoying bad ones."  Do you agree with Isola? Will you share  your favorite  references to books and reading in these pages?
8. What did you find especially meaningful in this first section; what surprised you, riled you, or tickled your fancy?

Related Links: Author's Biography; Visit Guernsey ;   A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941. ; Charles Lamb - Selected Essays

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP and Pedln

[Aberlaine]

I was amazed to learn that the citizens of Guernsey had no news of the world while the Germans occupied the island (five years).  Dawsey mentions in his letter of January 31, 1946: "Some things being sent to us are wrapped up in old newspaper and magazine pages.  My friend Clovis and I smooth them out and take them home to read."  I've done that - gotten a package with old newspaper stuffing the spaces and smoothed them out and read them.  Fascinating.  But I can't imagine not knowing what's going on in the world for a day, let alone five years!

I also loved Juliet's comment in her January 15, 1946 letter, "Perhaps there is some secret sort of homing instinct in books that brings them to their perfect reader."  I feel so special knowing that some of the books I've read were especially for me.

Nancy

[bellamarie]

Kiwilady and JoanR, I have to say I am so glad to hear you express you were repelled with Charles Lamb's Pig Roast essay.  I was thinking the same thoughts and held them back for fear of being critical of Lamb.  When JoanP mentioned, "I was interested in the part of the essay that spoke to the innocence, the purity of the newborn piglets. "  I personally felt very sad for them little piglets, and was sickened by the thought of them being the favored to eat.  But then again I HATE red meat and pork. I am an animal lover, and think of Bambi every time my nephews go deer hunting.   

[Janice]

I am enjoying reading all the posts.  I still am number ten on the library list and I am anxious to meet Julia.

[kiwilady]

Pigs are very smart as anyone who hand rears a piglet will find out. Experiments conducted here found that pigs are smarter than dogs. That totally put me off pork which I was not that keen on anyhow. Pigs squeal and know they are going to be killed when taken for slaughter. They react more than any other animal which is about to be slaughtered. I have a friend who has a pet pig. Its smarter than the whole bunch of her little companion dogs. It was the pig that got the dog pellets out of the pantry and gave it to the rest of the pets while my friend was at work. All the dogs were sick from overeating. He did it again one morning when my friend slept in and she caught him in the act.

Carolyn

[pedln]

I was interested in the part of the essay that spoke to the innocence, the purity of the newborn piglets.  I was struck by the parallel to the members of the Guernsey literary society, new to literature for the most part, pure and honest in their response, unaided by teachers, critics...

  from JoanP


Joan, what a keen eye there, to pick up on that.

This was my first reading of Lamb’s essay about suckling pigs. and I must say, that never having had a close association with pigs of any sort, it really did not bother me. I thought it was funny.  And if it helped someone cope with the indignities of wartime occupation, so much the better.  Truthfully, it made me think of the “lechon,” the roast pig (big) that we had at holiday time in Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands, and made me wonder how long it had been since I had fixed a fresh ham.  Years.

In his letter to Juliet, Dawsey says that all the pigs are gone.  Even after the war we find that there is still rationing and of course, shortages.  Did your mothers ever say to you, when you didn’t want to eat something on your plate, “Think of all the starving children in Europe.”

Nancy, that’s almost unbelievable, isn’t it.  Someone not having any news of the outside world for almost FIVE YEARS.  How would you begin to catch up? Thanks for pointing out Juliet’s comment,  "Perhaps there is some secret sort of homing instinct in books that brings them to their perfect reader."   We’re seeing some wonderful quotes about books here, aren’t we.

Jude, I love the one from Cicero --  "A room without books is like a body without a soul".  We’re supposed to get to Cicero this year in Latin.  I hope that quote will be in our reading and that I’ll recognize it.

I have one on a sweatshirt that's hanging in the laundry room -- a gift from a friend when I retired from the high schoo library  --  "I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library" - Jorge Luis Borges

Going back to Dawsey, he sounded like a shy man -- (and then Amelia Maugery said as much) -- he stuttered as a child.  That would be inhibiting.  He'd never been to a dinner party.  But he seems a kind man, and not one afraid to do what he thinks is right.  He made sure his friend Booker got home from the party.  He sent flowers to Juliet, by way of the lawyer.  And when he writes, he doesn't seem shy at all.

Had anyone heard of Doodle-bug before?  Did you know what they were?

FlaJean and Janice, you have not been forgotten.  So glad you're staying with us.

[kiwilady]

I had heard of the Doodlebug as my dad had been home on leave to London when they were in the midst of the deluge of these rockets by the Germans. He told us about them and how quiet they were and how lethal.

Carolyn

[JoanP]

Seneca, now Cicero!  Thanks for bringing us that quote, Jude.  I'll remember it whenever I'm tempted to downsize my bookshelves.  Babi, I'm with you - I don't understand either how Juliet didn't know until the eve of her wedding what a " drip"  she was marrying.  All of her books!  A shelf full of trophies!  Like "a body without a soul!"   I'm not so sure she isn't dazzled by the new American fellow sending her spring flowers in January, roses, orchids...  Does she not question his extravagance? He seems lacking in substance so far.
 Pedln, I agree, there have been wonderful quotes on books in these posts and from the book.  We need to scoop them up and save them  before we go much further. We can't have MarjV scribbling in her library book!

Juliet marvels at the fact that her book turned up in a shop on Guernsey.   Didn't it turn up in a used book store? Annie Barrows writes that both she and her Aunt Mary Ann worked in a book store together - so the authors  know books and bookstores.
 

"Perhaps there is some secret sort of homing instinct in books that brings them to their perfect reader."

I 'd like to think this  is so, Nancy,  I'm just not so sure I believe it .

  Carolyn - I've been thinking about what you said earlier about second hand book shops.  I can't remember the last time I visited one...there are still a few here in Arlington.  Two of them are in old houses...very old houses, each room filled with shelves of books.  I'm not sure why I don't go in them.  As you say, the proprietors are the 'genuine book lovers,'  they have a real interest in the books that they have acquired.  As I tried to think of the last time I went inside a used book store, I suddenly thought of Shakespeare and Co. in Paris.  Oh, don't I sound like a name dropper?  I went in on purpose and it was everything I had hoped it would be.  The proprietor, George Whitman knew  the legendary Sylvia Beach...I think he claimed to be a relative - He named  his daughter Sylvia Beach Whitman.   He took me all around the shop, up to the third floor for tea and offered me a room  to live in while I was in Paris.  FREE.  I'm not making this up!  This bookstore overlooks Notre Dame... on the Left Bank  My husband was underwhelmed when I told him afterward - and we continued our stay at the hotel he had reserved for us.  But this was the used book store daddy of them all!

But Carolyn, I'm going to make a point to go to one of the local used shops for the experience.

[bellamarie]

Seems our discussion has gone to the pigs, Gollywogs and Doodlebugs.  Imagine what someone would think just joining us.  

[JoanP]

OK, now I'm feeling bad that I ever laughed at the essay, Bellamarie, JoanR, Carolyn!

  Do you think, (I'm just guessing about this) that Lamb's  humorous essay on the discovery of roasting meat...making us laugh at the slaughter of the  newborn piglets and then talking about their innocence was intentional?  If that was his intention, to inspire repugnance at the slaughter of innocents, then he is worthy of our forgiveness, would you say,  JoanR ?  Are we supposed to be appalled, did Lamb intend us to be?
Consider the context - Juliet tires of writing her humorous stories of Izzy Bickerstaff goes to War - a humorous approach to the slaughter of untold millions.  Lamb's  essay may have been chosen to emphasize the fact that war is hell, slaughter is evil, but humor is a way of coping with it.   What do you think?  There is more than the pig essay that draws Adam Dawsey to Charles Lamb - though he was a pig farmer before the war.  You've noted that he picked up on Lamb's sadness  from his essays, without knowing anything about Lamb's troubled mind or the family tragedy.  Will we find similar sadness in Dawsey's life?  Maybe there is something to the secret homing instinct of books to the perfect reader after all.

(How does one chuckle in print?) LOL?  Or is laughing out loud too loud for a chuckle, Nancy?

Good night everyone.  Maybe Gum will come in, like the tooth fairy,  while we are sleeping?

Robertson's Scottish marmalade - I looked it up. Kids saved the labels with the golly image to earn little prizes, little broaches with  the golliwog's image.  Where was I when all this was going on? 

[MarjV]

Joan P - I agree.   I don't find the fiancee believable either.   

What I'm liking best about the book are the island characters.  Wouldn't you just love to be sitting with the
having a conversation for hours.

Losing interest in Juliet as an intneresting person (I guess that doesn't give anything away) but
in my sleepess night I was thinking about her.

I like these for laughing out loud.     

[bellamarie]

JoanP, "Lamb's  essay may have been chosen to emphasize the fact that war is hell, slaughter is evil, but humor is a way of coping with it.   What do you think?"

Forgive me for reposting this, but I guess I did get a bit ahead of everyone else yesterday, so I guess this fits better in answering JoanP's question today. 

Dawsey says on pg. 9, "For all his bright and turning mind, I think Mr. Lamb must have had a great sadness in his life.  Charles Lamb made me laugh during the German Occupation, especially when he wrote about the roast pig.  The Gurensey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society came into being because of a roast pig we had to keep secret from the German soldiers, so I feel a kinship to Mr. Lamb."

I see Dawsey being able to relate to Mr. Lamb, in the sense they have both experienced sad times, yet were able to get through them with a bit of humor.  As we know through Lamb's Essays, he lived through witnessing his own sister take the life of his mother, due to a mental breakdown.  Sad times I dare say.

 "I never would have made it if I could not have laughed.  It lifted me momentarily out of this horrible situation, just enough to make it livable." 
-Viktor Frankl, re:surviving the Nazi death camps

I think, Juliet and Charles Lamb, along with many others were able to survive and help others, with their humor in such unbearable times.

[bellamarie]

I've been giving a lot of thought about the fiancee', and I have mixed feelings with Mary Anne's way of writing this.  I ask myself, how could Juliet get so upset and call off a wedding because of him replacing her books with his trophies, awards etc.?  It seems a shallow reason for Mary Anne to create and make believable to the readers.  Did Juliet not truly love him?  Did books mean more to her, than discussing with him respect for each others space?  Was Juliet ready for marriage?  Some of you have seen the fiancee' as a cad.  I am looking at it from another perspective.  If you truly love someone, and you are just a day or so from marrying this person, wouldn't you be deliriously happy and not worrying about the fact your bookshelves have been take over?

MarjV.."Losing interest in Juliet as an interesting person (I guess that doesn't give anything away) but in my sleepess night I was thinking about her."

Hmmmm....an interesting statement.  Have you read ahead?  Is she too good to be true?  OK, enough I shall wait to see.


 

[Gumtree]

It's the tooth fairy! 

Seems our discussion has gone to the pigs, Gollywogs and Doodlebugs.  Imagine what someone would think just joining us.  

Well, They might  just think we were discussing a good book.

Golliwogs were popular here when I was a child though I didn't have one. It is now 'politically incorrect' to use the term 'golliwog' here.  Enid Blyton's series of children's books had 'gollies' in them but the British expunged all references to them when the word was seen to be a racist term.


I think most of us here are animal lovers and deplore wholesale slaughter of animals for whatever reason - but I don't think we should regret appreciating the humour in Lamb's burnt pig essay. Even though Lamb was addressing serious questions such as the slaughter of innocents, he is also saying things about man's ingenuity and  adaptability. That he did it with humour is testament to his skill in presenting his argument.

Dawsey is responding to Lamb at a sub-conscious level - it's not just the association of the roasted pig which he says leads him to feel a kinship to Mr.Lamb- he also recognises a  sadness in Lamb which resonates within himself though Dawsey knows not why.

I love this bit - From Juliet to Dawsey 15th January 1946:
That's what I love about reading: one thing will interest you in a book, and that tiny thing will lead you on to another book, and another bit there will lead you on to a third book. It's geometrically progressive - all with no end in sight, and for no other reason than sheer enjoyment

I can begin to count up how many times that has been true during my lifetime - but it really is more than sheer enjoyment it's the stuff of life itself.

Joan P You certainly take the cake for secondhand bookstore stories - who could top your  Paris tale ?

We have lots of secondhand bookstores  around the suburbs - some are specialised and stock particular genres others are more eclectic and of course there are the rare and antique booksellers whose prices are often astronomical - sometimes for titles and editions I have on my own shelves - but I bet if I offered my copies  for sale they wouldn't fetch two bob.

[Steph]

Since I once owned a used book store, I will say that the reason for the disappearing stores is rent.. Noone who owns a used book store makes much if any money. They are mostly labors of great love of reading. But landlords need rent money. The only ones left tend to own their store building.. And there are not many of them indeed.
Am enjoying the discussion and Amazon said yesterday they had shipped the books.

[bellamarie]

Gumtree..."Golliwogs were popular here when I was a child though I didn't have one. It is now 'politically incorrect' to use the term 'golliwog' here.  Enid Blyton's series of children's books had 'gollies' in them but the British expunged all references to them when the word was seen to be a racist term."

Yes, Gumtree you are quite correct about the racist term.  I found this interesting article.
Black Irish: the Gollywog

Gollywogs, or Golly Dolls have been around for quite a while in Ireland. The Gollywog developed as a household toy after Africans started to come to Ireland from the African missions to study at universities and seminaries in Dublin and Maynooth.

The "Gollywog" name was borrowed from the English in the 19th Century, and the story of how that name evolved is quite an interesting one. England carried out active slave trading with the Carolinas well into the middle of the 19th Century, where Gulla was one of the many African dialects/languages spoken by slaves taken from their African homelands.

The intellectual leap from Gulla to "Golly" was not a big one and somewhere along the line the derogatory term "Wog", meaning somebody with tight, curly, black hair, which originated in India during England's establishment of its Empire there was tacked on to give the name "Gollywog". The Irish it may also have been the Anglo-Irish class in Ireland adopted the name for their black dolls. Incidentally, Gulla is still spoken by some inhabitants of the Carolinas today.

A second type of Gollywog was developed by an American woman, who, stranded and destitute in London at the beginning of this century, first made Gollywogs as a copy of vaudeville black face singers. These tail-coated, male dolls were very popular children's toys until the 1960s, when the British government, prompted by subjects returning from now independent British colonies, banned their manufacture and sale, and removed all the Gollywog dolls from State-run nursery schools.

Withstanding time, Golly Dolls retain their unique place alongside Teddy bears and dolls as companions, and remain an integral part of Irish life.

[pedln]

Marj, you’re tough!  We will have to watch our Juliet.   

Second hand bookstores.  I love them.  When I go to the one here I am always surprised at how much they have.  Mostly fiction, but I have found titles that I didn’t expect would be there.  And they give a credit when you bring in books, that can be used for their books.

I love this bit - From Juliet to Dawsey 15th January 1946:
That's what I love about reading: one thing will interest you in a book, and that tiny thing will lead you on to another book, and another bit there will lead you on to a third book. It's geometrically progressive - all with no end in sight, and for no other reason than sheer enjoyment

  from Gum

And, while I don’t equate them, reading on the Internet does much the same, as many of us have experienced that right here on this site.

No one can top Joan’s bookstore story, but I do have one from a British bookstore. Back in the late 70’s I was an ‘old,’ but nevertheless newly minted librarian, visiting my brother and SIL in Chicago. So I invited my SIL to join me at the ALA convention, visiting the vast array of hugh  exhibits only.  As we approached the area of a British bookseller, SIL whispered “Eddie has done business with them.” (My brother has very eclectic tastes in old books). A gentleman approached, “May I help you ladies?” “My husband has bought books from you.”  “Oh, name please.”  “Evenson.”  “Oh, A. Edward?”  We picked our jaws up from the floor and ascertained that it was indeed our Ed who had bought the books.

Gum and Bellamarie, thanks for explaining about the racial aspects of Golliwog. I wondered about that when I read one of the links.  Interesting that it came from the word Gulla. Middle of the night thinking -- we go through life just accepting some words just for their sound, never wondering where they came from.  Why did my piano teacher never explain what a Golliwog was?

Steph, glad to hear your input about bookstores.  That probably carries over to the independent booksellers, too, and one wonders what happen when all that's left are a few huge chains. But that's a topic for someplace else.

Off to check out the parking lot at the swimming pool. Finally.

[kiwilady]

I can understand Juliet dumping her fiance. If you think about it the man packed up all her precious books and was ready to replace that which was so dear to her with his sports trophies.
Juliet quite rightly assumed that this was a sign of what their married life would be like. No consultation with her and his interests would always come first. In other words she saw a future in which all decisions would be taken by her fiance and she would have little input into their life together. I don't blame Juliet. It shows she was a woman before her time. She wanted a partnership in her marriage. A marriage in which decisions were shared and their differences were respected. She realised before it was too late that she would not get this type of relationship with the man she was engaged to.

Carolyn

[bellamarie]

I questioned whether Juliet was really in love, and ready to get married at all, due to these particular statements from her.... When questioned by the reporter she said,
pg. 19 "I didn't jilt him at the altar-it was the day before.   And he wasn't humiliated- he was relieved.  I simply told him that I didn't want to be married after all.  Believe me, Mr. Gilbert, he left a happy man-delighted to be rid of me."   When Gilbert said, "OH-HO!" he smirked, "What was it, then? Drink? Other women? A touch of the old Oscar Wilde?"  That is when Juliet threw the teapot."

Then on pg. 20 Juliet's best friend Susan says, "All I could get her to say to me was that Rob Dartry was a good man, a very good man- none of it was his fault-and he did not deserve this!"

pg. 23 In Juliet's letter to Sidney she says, "I am so glad I didn't embarrass S&S about Gilly and the teapot-I was worried.  Susan suggested I make a dignified statement" to the press too, about Rob Dartry and why we did not marry.  I couldn't possibly do that.  I honestly don't think I'd mind looking like a fool, if it didn't make Rob look a worse one.  But it would- and of course, he wasn't a fool at all."

pg.24  "I thought I was in love (that's the pathetic part-my idea of being in love). 

pg.25 "All I could do was scream, "How dare you! What have you DONE?! Put my books back!"  ........Eventually, I said something to the effect that I could never marry a man whose idea of bliss was to strike out at little balls and little birds."

With all due respect, Kiwilady, I don't feel "this is a woman before her time." In my opinion, this is a woman who sounds like it didn't take much to set her off.  By her own admission, HE was relieved to be free of HER, and was a very good man.   Juliet, did not in any way, want anyone to blame Rob or see him in a bad way.  I think she reacted tempermental,  and may have  not been ready for married life and sharing her space, as much as she tried to prepare for it. 

After all the glitz and glitter has wore off of beginning this book, I have been having some second thoughts about Juliet's personality.  I will see where they take me.

[Aberlaine]

We don't have any second-hand bookstores around where I live.  So I frequent summer yard sales and the library book sales.  Most of my books come from the local library association.  If I particularly like a book I've read, I'll buy it.  I've bought Guernsey.

I guess I lived a sheltered childhood.  I've never heard of a golliwog doll.  I'm getting quite an education.

Isn't it interesting that two men in Juliet's life are sending her flowers: Markham, who's just flooding her with them, and Dawsey, who's sent white lilacs: "How did you know I like white lilacs above all flowers?" --Juliet's letter February 20, 1946.  A coincidence?  A hint of things to come?

Nancy

[kiwilady]

Aberlaine - I like Juliet. I thought she was quite boring in the first few letters but as I read I begin to like her more.

[PatH]

One thing we mustn't forget about Juliet's engagement is the atmosphere of wartime London.  Everything was unstable, different from normal, and you might get killed at any time.  Whirlwind courtships and marriages between people who didn't know each other well were common, especially when one of the pair was about to go off to active duty, as Rob was.

But still, Juliet obviously does have a short fuse.  And it's unbelievable she wouldn't have noticed he didn't care for books.  But what Rob did would have definitely been a deal breaker for me, too.  She had clearly divided up the space 50-50, yet he waited until she was gone and boxed up her things without even checking with her.

I never even heard of a golliwog until I was grown up.

[bellamarie]

But still, Juliet obviously does have a short fuse.  And it's unbelievable she wouldn't have noticed he didn't care for books.  But what Rob did would have definitely been a deal breaker for me, too.  She had clearly divided up the space 50-50, yet he waited until she was gone and boxed up her things without even checking with her.

pg.  24 "In preparation for sharing my home with a husband, I made room for him so he wouldn't feel like a visiting aunt.  I cleared out half my dresser drawers, half my closet, half my medicine chest, half my desk."  One afternoon before our wedding, Rob was moving in the last of his clothes and belongings while I delivered my Izzy article to the Spector.".........  "He said, Hello, darling. Don't mind the mess, the porter said he'd help me carry these down to the basement."  He nodded toward my bookshelves and said, "Don't they look wonderful?"

She made space everywhere for him except the bookshelves. Did she NOT intend him to have any space on them?  I don't see where it indicates, he waited until she was gone, as to be calculating.  His asking, "Don't they look wonderful?", clearly indicates he did not see where he had done anything wrong, on the contrary he was concerned she would be upset about the mess she came home to and reassured her he was going to have it cleaned up.  It appears Juliet and Rob both, intended 100% ownership to the bookshelves, to hold what was near and dear to them, (Juliet, her books, and Rob, his personal achievements.)  I would not see this as a reason to call off a wedding, if anything I would see this as an opportunity for the two of them to communicate with each other their desire for the space and agree to share half as she did all the other areas of the home.  Keep in mind, Juliet repeatedly expressed what a very nice man Rob was.

I guess you need to forgive me, I work with our Pre cana couples in our church to help prepare them to look at situations that will arise in their relationships once they are married, and to discuss them before the big day, so it will help prevent situations as Juliet and Rob's.  We have them discuss the joining of bank accounts, credit cards, houses, etc.  I guess book shelves never have come up. 
 
I suppose for those who see the bookshelves as a deal breaker to call of the wedding, and those like me, who don't, we must at this point respectfully, agree to disagree.

I do still like Juliet, very much.  I am just seeing other sides to her.

[EvelynMC]

I never had a golliwog doll either, never even heard of them. I thought she was referring to a green or yellow octupus with many legs, which I seem to remember on many of my girlfriends' beds. (I had a teddy bear).

As far as Juliet's engagement goes.  I just chalked it up to her inexperience with men and the war time atmosphere of live today because tomorrow we may be dead.

That man must have been really full of himself to pack up her books and put all his trophies in their place.  She just looked down the long road of life and realized that it would just be more of the same.  Everything his way. And had the good sense to get off that particular merry-go-round.

This sure is a good discussion. I'm learning all kinds of new things.

Evelyn

[Babi]

JOANP  I think tha bookstore proprietor was simply so pleased to find someone he could visit with and talk to, he wanted to keep you as a guest. But perhaps your hubby thought he was too interested in you.   

Kiwilady...exactly!

"This was a sign of what their married life would be like. No consultation with her and his interests would always come first."

  Sorry, Bellemarie, but IMO these two were not suited to each other, and it would have been a tragedy if they had ignored the warning signals and gotten married anyway.

 I read the link on Chas. Lamb's life, and it was indeed a troubled one. His beloved sister had a recurring mental illness. During one of her episodes, she did stab her mother. Between recurrences, she was apparently a sweet, intelligent woman, who always knew when the symptoms began developing again, but was helpless to do anything about it. What a terrible shadow to live with, for her and for her brother.

 Didn’t you love the letter of reference from Lady Bella Taunton?  You learned as much about Lady Bella as you did about Juliet.  And let’s face it, dear Victoria’s taste was dreadfully heavy and stuffy.
 
  The things I am learning!  I did not know there were five Bronte sisters; I thought there was just the three.  Nor did I know that all of them had ‘weak chests’ and died young. Furthermore, I had always heard that they adored, and supported, their brother Branwell, but never heard that he was a drunkard that they had to clean up after.  Poor girls!

  And Wilkie Collins!  More scandal!  “Did you know that Wilkie Collin maintained to separate households with two separate mistresses and two separate sets of children? The scheduling difficulties must have been shocking.  No wonder he took laudanum.”   Between the two households and the laudanum, he must have had a large income at his disposal!

[kiwilady]

The Bronte sisters smothered Branwell. They overcompensated for the harshness of their puritanical father. Today we would call them "enablers". They were a sad family. Isolated, living in a desolate and remote location. No wonder they wrote, creating a world for themselves away from their drab existence.

Carolyn

[JudeS]

 I have just read Lamb's essay and I hope someone can point out the humor in this piece.  I found no point to it.  In fact the horror of it brought to mind the brilliant essay by Jonathan Swift which deals with an even  more horrible subject, but had at
the time, a  sound political purpose for being popular. Swift's "A Modest Proposal" suggests that poor Irish people eat their own children or sell them to others so as not to be a burden but a benefit to the Public.

In a completely different matter I wish to bring up the personality of Adelaide Addison.  She is the only character (so far) who seems to be made of cardboard and not human flesh.  Did others of you also feel that her letters were much too one-sided and rather too stupid to be believable?
I wonder what the purpose of the authors was in presenting her in this way?  Any ideas.

Jude

[bellamarie]

Babi,

"Sorry, Bellemarie, but IMO these two were not suited to each other, and it would have been a tragedy if they had ignored the warning signals and gotten married anyway. "

I completely agree with you Babi.  These two were not suited to each other, and the marriage would not have worked.  My argument was, there are two sides to look at, and Juliet, repeatedly said, Rob was a very nice man, and he was in no way to blame, he was actually better off without her.  I feel what Juliet was revealing about herself, is that she can be a bit much for someone to live with, she was not ready for marriage and very possibly was not truly in love with him.  This is not being critical of Juliet, just an observation.

JudeS...

Swift's "A Modest Proposal" suggests that poor Irish people eat their own children or sell them to others so as not to be a burden but a benefit to the Public.

EEEEEWWWWWWW...now I am disgusted!!!

[kiwilady]

I think in every small community there is a person who sits in judgement on the rest of the Community. In small communities everyone knows everyone elses business. Adelaide Addison represents this sort of person.

Carolyn

[JoanR]

Yes, Jude, I was also reminded of Swift's essay.  It was intended to call the attention of the English to the plight of the Irish in the many famines.  However, Lamb's essay doesn't seem to have such a lofty purpose.  It was mentioned that perhaps it was used here to emphasize "that war is hell, slaughter is evil, but humor is a way of coping with it".  OK, perhaps that is our author's intent but it certainly wasn't  Lamb's intent.  He meant to be humorous.  Nowadays many of us have expanded our sympathies beyond the human race and we don't find it so funny.
Adelaide Addison is good background noise.  We always will have someone jumping up and down and saying we're all going to h__ in a handbasket.

[JoanP]

JoanR-  I think we can  each interpret  Lamb's purpose in writing the "Dissertation upon the Roast Pig."   There is so much there.    The one thing we do know, Dawsey Adams is completely taken with Charles Lamb, his essays, his letters and his life. And Dawsey Adams, a pig farmer sees humor in this particular essay. Jude, I  would think that Dawsey finds humor in the way the first pigs were roasted, burning down the house each time one  wants to cook a pig.

Nancy, you've noted a parallel between the  modest flowers that Dawsey sends to Juliet and Mark's extravagant bouquets.  Is it worth noting   that Mark (Markham?) is an American?  We all seem to agree that Juliet and her fiancé were ill-suited for whatever reason.  Evelyn says she is well rid of him.  PatH reminds us that this is wartime London, whirlwind courtships, quick marriages.  It's not as if she's known him for a long time. It's good that she realized her mistake in time, we all agree on that one.

You have to wonder what Adelaide Addison has against Elizabeth McKenna - and against the Guernsey literary society, Jude.   She seems to look down her nose at Elizabeth because she is not a true Islander, the daughter of a housekeeper.  Geee, Elizabeth isn't even on the island any more. Why Adelaide  writing to Juliet?  You know she's trouble just from the way she signs her letter - " Yours in Christian Consternation and Concern"

Let's look  closely at Elizabeth's role in the founding of the book club...I love the names of  the original members, don't you?   Were they all down on the social ladder - is that why Adelaide fears they will give Guernsey a bad name if publicized in Juliet's article in the Times?
Nancy notes that Juliet likes the white lilacs Dawsey Adams sent  her- "above all flowers" -- 

A hint of things to come?

  Nancy, do you think that there may  possibly be something  developing between them?  Really?  Do the rest of you think they have anything in common?  Aside from Charles Lamb, of course.
 
  How many were in that original group?  Mrs. Maugery, Dawsey Adams, Elizabeth ...Why do you think Mrs. Maugery invited this particular group to dine on her hidden pig?

[mabel1015j]

Why do you think Mrs. Maugery invited this particular group to dine on her hidden pig? ...................I wondered about that also, Joan. As I've explained the book to people, telling them how it got it's  name, i have said "she invited "  and then i tho't "are they neighbors? who were these people?" ........jean

[pedln]

In a completely different matter I wish to bring up the personality of Adelaide Addison.  She is the only character (so far) who seems to be made of cardboard and not human flesh.  Did others of you also feel that her letters were much too one-sided and rather too stupid to be believable?
I wonder what the purpose of the authors was in presenting her in this way?  Any ideas.

  from Jude

I think Adelaide Addison was a product of her times and upbringing who belonged to that group that judged others by their ancestry and place in society.  In addition, she was probably very prim and proper – the first sentence in her letter to Juliet reads “Forgive the presumption of a letter from a person unknown to you.”   There’s probably a bit of sour grapes there too, with Miss Adelaide, as she goes on to say, “There are those of true culture and breeding .   .   .  ..  will take no part in this charade (even if invited)." – There’s the rub.  It galls her that the housekeeper’s ddaughter and the pig farmer are part of a select group  that doesn’t include her.

Jean, I think Amelia Maugery invited this particular group because they were fairly close neighbors, and as well, she said to Dawsey, “Come quickly, and bring a butcher knife,” knowing that he was no doubt the best one around for cutting up a pig.

[Gumtree]

I just have to post this :

Today's (4th February) Times newspaper reported that Margaret Thatcher's daughter has been dropped from a BBC show after she  refused to apologise for referring to a tennis player as a golliwog.

Carol Thatcher made the remark off-air in relation to a competitor in the Australian Open - saying that  she thought his hair reminded her of the golliwog on the jam jar's of her childhood .

The BBC regards the remark as racist and wants an apology even though the remark was made off-air. Thatcher is not talking.

As Ginny would say, our discussion here is so  au courant

I'll try a link to the Times but I have a habit of getting bumped off -

golliwog

[Gumtree]

The Times link doesn't seem to work - here's the address:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5651477.ece or just google for Times Newspaper

[bellamarie]

Gumtree...

Today's (4th February) Times newspaper reported that Margaret Thatcher's daughter has been dropped from a BBC show after she  refused to apologise for referring to a tennis player as a golliwog.

Carol Thatcher made the remark off-air in relation to a competitor in the Australian Open - saying that  she thought his hair reminded her of the golliwog on the jam jar's of her childhood .

Gumtree...Wow!  Can you imagine here we are discussing "gollywog",  and this just happens.  After reading the article I posted yesterday about the Black Irish-Gollywog, and how the gollywog could no longer be manufactured and was banned in the nursery schools due to the racist inference, I am a bit surprised Carol Thatcher would use this to compare the likeness of a tennis player.  Even though it was in a private conversation off camera, there were others around who heard it, and because of her job they felt it inappropriate.  I don't personally feel she meant it in any racial context, but awareness of sensitivity to different races and culture are on the rise here even in the United States, especially since we now have our first black president and a radio announcer was fired for saying a woman, black basketball player's hair was "nappy".

"The journalist daughter of Baroness Thatcher, the former Prime Minister, is understood to have refused a request from the BBC to offer an unconditional apology for her comment. "

Although, she did not intend any racial intent, I am a bit surprised at how she is not willing to give the apology and recognize and accept how others could be offended. 

Thank you for the article Gumtree.   And to think I had never heard of the word Gollywog, until Feb. 1st reading this book.

[Babi]

JUDE, Ms Addison does seem somewhat one-dimensional, but I have known people like that. It may have been that I didn't know them well enough, but with people who act like that, who wants to become better acquainted?
  Why did the author present her like that?  Perhaps as a counterpoint to the basic warmheartedness of the other characters.

Ah, okay, Bellamarie.  Point taken.  As for Swift's "Modest Proposal", I assume he was being sarcastic, not sincere. Sarcasm was definitely his style.

On the subject of Mr. Markham, I note Julie's letter to Sophie……(I had to grin). ”Your questions regarding that gentleman are very delicate, very subtle,  very much like being smacked in the head with a mallet.”
  And, “The first rule of snooping is to come at it sideways.”  Absolutely!
 But really, why can’t she see that if she is ‘dreading’ spending an evening with him, she needs to run very fast in the other direction.  But of course, it’s hard to be practical and realistic when you are being pursued by a wealthy, confident, handsome, glamorous male!

[Steph]

The gollywog discussion is interesting. Did not know it derived from Gullah. Gullah is an interesting complicated language. It is mostly heard in the small islands off of South Carolina.. But when I was a newlywed back in the late 50's, we lived for two years in Columbia, SC. I was the bookkeeper in a entertainment complex.. Movies, bowling, pinball, etc. Several of our back stage workers spoke mostly gullah and it was a whole new experience for me to figure out how to translate what they wanted. This was a long time ago and they did not read or write either..I suspect that has disappeared with television being so prevalent.

[pedln]

That’s a very interesting article, and thanks for picking up on that, Gumtree.  As someone mentioned, we certainly are ‘au courant.’   The timing here is just unbelievable.  If this news had surfaced a week ago would we have paid attention or even known about it.  Obviously, as we have learned, it’s a racist term, and she shouldn’t have used it.  Why not apologize and get it over with. But at the same time, why did someone feel the need to drag a word from private conversation and put it before the public?  Watch your back, Carol Thatcher.

(I wonder if anyone plays that Debusssy piece anymore, Golliwog Cake Walk.  How would they list it on the program?)

What are your thoughts about Sidney?  Is he just a big brother friend?  He certainly is important to Juliet and he doesn't appear to think highly of Mark Reynolds.

[JoanP]

Good eye, Gum!  I'm not sure our US papers picked up on the controversy yet.

Pedln, that's an interesting question.  I'm willing to bet the title of the piece would appear in programs when the work is played.
 Perhaps it is  the context in which the term is used that is objectionable.  Carol Thatcher, as I understand it, was referring to the  black French tennis player, Jo-Wilfried Tsonga  after he lost his match.  He looked stunned...and in Thatcher's words to her friend,  he stood on the court - like a golliwog.  She didn't say it on air...she said it privately.  Her  agent says the comment was leaked by a staffer at BBC who had a grudge against her. 

Here's an interesting site - maybe you can hear it - at least see the photo of Debussy himself,  playing the  Golliwog Cake walk in 1913

Okay, we have two questions on the table. Do you think Sydney has romantic interest in Juliet?  I don't think she looks at him as anything other than a big brother.  I don't think she knows what to make of Mark. But what about Sydney - does his jealousy reveal deeper feelings for Juliet?

And then - how does Jean explain to her friends how the literary society came into being - how did  that particular group get invited to Mrs. Maugery's for the pig roast?  It's logical why  Adam Dawsey was invited - he know how to slaughter the pig.  But the others, were they all friends of hers?  I think I have to go back and reread that letter...

Oh, wait - a third question.  How on earth did  it occur to Elizabeth McKenna - on the spur of the moment, to make up the book club excuse to explain why they were breaking curfew?