Classics Book Club, The

[Frybabe]

Welcome to

The Classics Book Club,  a forum for reading in translation  those timeless classics written by ancient authors you always meant to get around to but never have. We've done the Iliad, and we did  the Odyssey, but it was in 1996, so it's back up for grabs and  what of the Aeneid?  Aeschylus? Euripides?  Plutarch? Plato?

Cleopatra is all the rage currently, with two new books and a claim her palace in Alexandria has just been found, she's hot. Why? Do what Shakespeare did and read the original sources, a world of incredible fascination and insights awaits.

The floor is now open for nominations!  We'll vote January 15 for one week and we'll begin discussing part of the book (which you'll determine first) February 15.

 Bring all your background materials, we'll desperately need them,  and join us on an unforgettable enriching adventure! Dust off those old moldy books you always intended to read and join our merry band of adventurers in our new venture: The Classics Book Club!

Everyone is welcome!  

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Nominate through January 14, we'll vote on the 15th-22.
                   

Title	Author
The Odyssey	Homer (c.800 B.C.)
The Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans	Plutarch (c.46 A.D.- c. 120 A.D.)
The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius	Marcus Aurelius (121 -180 A.D.)
Antigone	Sophocles (c.496-406/5 B.C.)
____________________	____________________
____________________	____________________
____________________	____________________

I preferred the Odyssey over the Iliad when I first read them. I was so much more into an adventure story over one with war and love interests when I read them.

[Babi]

Well, I do think Horace may have overstated his point. I can think
of things I would sorely miss, quite apart from the comfort of my
belly, chest and feet.
  For most of the ancient writers, much of their work is no longer extant.
I assume we would be reading 'selections' in many cases. 

[ALF43]

Babi- Perhaps translated, in today's vernacular,  Horace's comfort or belly, chest and feet meant:

to have a full stomach (enough to eat), someone to love would be the comfort of the chest (heart) and the freedom to travel at will (feet).

I guess I wouldn't make a very good philospher now, would I, although I've supposed many thoughts over a glass of wine.

[PatH]

PatH - did you just dredge that Iliad quote on knees out of your head?

Yes, I did.  When we read Iliad on the old site, I was highly amused by it, and thought it would make a good motto for me.  There aren't many lines I could come up with like that.

[JoanK]

" it's HOT - Xmas Day was 40 Celsius which translates as about 104F"

Just finished a Christmas mystery set in Australia (Kerry Greenwood) where the character hates Christmas because of the heat. Maybe South of the equater, you could celebrate it on june 25. It's not Christ's real birthday anyway, but a celebration of the Winter Solstice.

Just last night saw a rebroadcast of the Perth air races, and was thinking of you, Gum. Too bad they show so little of the city.

[Gumtree]

PatH - I've got the same sort of knees too -

JoanK - Yes Christmas feasting should be in wintertime - Hotels and restaurants here feature special traditional Christmas menus during July - it's very popular with clubs, societies and workplace social groups. I can't say how many Christmas in July lunches and dinners I've been to over the years. But it's just not the same somehow.

Did you see anything of the dismal performance put on by the Australian cricketers in the Boxing Day Match for the Ashes. My sons are weeping. I say bring back Shane Warne.

[Babi]

 Oh, I like your version, ALF.  Sounds like good philosophy to me. 

[ALF43]

   Babi, particularly at this time of the year, my heart and belly are full and I'm traveling back to Florida tomorrow.  (Not by my feet however.)

[pedln]

PatH, amazing.  We should all tip our lids to you.  And Gum, I'm really impressed with your son, reading the classics before he starts his day.  How much can be accomplished if one doesn't fritter.

Yes, no, this is not the site for recipes, but as we round out the holiday season, it seems appropriate to include at least one food eaten by the ancients.  In this article our local food guru, Dr. Tom Harte, describes some dietary habits from the Odyssey that are still alive today. (It's an August article, but I came across it while reading about chestnuts.)

Greek Cheese

Frybabe, I'm with you -- will let the rest decide on the selection.  My only background in the classics is what I've learned in Latin class.

[BarbStAubrey]

Here is a link to the Loeb Classic Library which I believe is the same as the Harvard Classic Library

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/collection.php?cpk=1031

[bookad]

as this is the pre-classic book discussion is it appropriate to ask opinions on buying a 'nook' or 'kindle' or ??--I would ideally like something of this nature that has the ability to include notes and ability to underline/highlight passages ...I was not interested in one of these till I noted all the free books downloadable thru Gutenberg & other sites ...
--not having any children consequently grandchildren, have to be able to manage this new gadget on my own, so hopefully the learning curve is not too complicated

I can go to another board if that is necessary for further comments on my concern...having heard some of you talk about your e-books it sounds like a wonderful device
--might also cut down on some of the weight in our RV as I started out with 10-12 books, but by now must have over 30...sigh ...such is the dilemma of a book addict

Deb

[roshanarose]

pedln - Thanks for the Feta story.  On my first visit to Greece, way back in '82, I used to have feta (Greek salad); a smal loaf of Greek bread; a piece of freshly caught grilled fish;and a small carafe of Macedonian red wine for lunch.  I stayed on one island, Samos, which is a very short distance from Turkey.  I would gaze across the water and feel the sun on my shoulders.  It was there that I first started translating Constantinos Cavafis, my favourite Greek poet.   I was happier then than I had ever been.  I had found my true love - Greece.  Thanks for reminding me, pedln.

[pedln]

roshanarose,  ambience is everything, isn’t it.  You paint a lovely picture of your lunch in Greece.

Bookad, Deb – I’m a relatively new Kindle3 owner who has done nothing more than explore the books that Amazon has available, download some of them (magically, by wireless), and then read them. The learning curve for that is pretty much nil.

Now, if you want to add notes, etc. or skip around from one section to another, highlight phrases, that sort of thing, you will probably need to read a bit in the ebook guide.  I h ad to, and I’m not really comfortable with those procedures yet.  BUT – just yesterday I downloaded the Kindle app for my computer and without any effort on my part, all the books from my Kindle show up on the PC.  Just playing around, I opened one already read, and found out that you can highlight a phrase just as you would any phrase in a WORD or Notepad essay.

So, yes, there is a learning curve, but it should only enhance your use and not deter your ability to read from your ebook as soon as you receive it.  I love mine, and carry it in a sleeve in my purse, so it’s always available.

[Babi]

 I love feta cheese, PEDLN. Unfortunately my daughter doesn't, so anytime I
buy some I have to eat it all myself. I consider it an indulgence...a happy one.

[bookad]

Pedin--thank you for the your thoughts on e-books--have been searching around the net and on some message boards
and found something disturbing re; perhaps not being able to use all its features while in Canada...so going to do some more
research before I invest in one.....I thought it would be a wonderful thing to have though especially as a lot of the classics are
published on 'gutenberg' web stand libraries have free 2-4 week download of many books...this would certainly reduce the amount of books we currently are carrying in our RV because of me...my husband is not really an avid reader

thanks again
Deb

[JoanK]

I spent last evening in the Roman Empire! My PBS station (KOCE) had three programs back to back about the Romans.

The first was a segment of their regular archeological program (Secrets of the Dead). It dealt with the mystery of the skeletons of 44 beheaded Romam soldiers that were unearthed in Kent, England, and dated around 200 AD. Who had beheaded them and why? Their proposed answer dealt with the palace politics of the time -- the current Roman Emporor was in Kent organizing raids across Hadrians Wall to subdue the Caladonians. (Interestingly, he had to learn the same lesson we relearned in Vietnam -- that a regular army can't deal with guerilla warfare). When he died, his successor killed anyone who had opposed him, and the theory is that these soldiers had done so in some way.

More later.

[JoanK]

The second program was a BBC program called "The Coliseum". I gave some information on the building of the coliseum, but the main focus was on the lifeof a real gladiator who faught in the opening games of the coliseum in 80 AD. They didn't make clear whether the biography they gave was known or given as a typical gladiator. I assume the latter, except for the fight itself, which is the only such fight that was descibed in detail and has come down to us.

It didn't hurt that the actor who played the gladiator is a real hunk. (Classical study is not all bookish).

[JoanK]

The third program was the last day of Pompaii (79 AD). They dramatized the last hours of the people whose remains had been found. It was too hairy for me, waiting for all these people to die, and I turned it off.

[ginny]

It didn't hurt that the actor who played the gladiator is a real hunk. (Classical study is not all bookish).

That's the living truth. I myself was quite taken by the actor Mark Noble who played Gaius Suetonius Paulinus  in the History Channel's production of  Warrior Queen Boudica , he was something else! Just ate the screen up.  Here's a scene I can show without fear of being attacked by the copyright police because it's on Youtube.  Here you can see him  exhorting his 10,000 troops who are surrounded by (depending on whose history you read) either 100,000 or 250,000 (Dio) angry Britons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwyKx8cwydM&feature=related

I mean the man was so good he actually had the audience feeling sympathetic to him and not Boudicca.

I wish those had been on here,  Joan K! I think the one on the  Colosseum is on Youtube, there's a ton of documentaries pirated there. There's also a 1 hour 48 minutes Yale Courses lecture on the same subject.   Sounds like your PBS station is having a Roman Holiday!!  The Romans are SOOO hot right now. There's a new Pompeii Exhibit opening on Times Square in NYC this March, when the Tut goes down.

Bookad, that seems a fantastic option for reading the Gutenberg titles, you could carry an entire library in your RV!  Let us know about the  Canada restrictions. I think once you've got the book on (I have an ITouch) it's on, no matter where you are, is that right, Nookers, Kindlers,  and Ipaders? Regardless of the country?

ALF! (Andrea) is that YOU? Welcome, welcome! So glad to see you, I hope this means you will join  us, I know you have experience in reading the Great Books. I  am quite excited to see what we'll nominate.

Pedln that is a super Feta Cheese page and,  not incidentally, a great Greek salad recipe, thank you!
 
Thank you Barbara for the Loeb, nothing quite like them. Don't they look appealing tho in their holiday colors, and so MANY!

Hahaha, PatH, LOVE that quote!

Me too, Gum,  I seem to have the BEST ideas early in the morning but if I don't write them down, forget it. hahaha I'm sooo impressed with your son's programme of reading the Classics and I hope we can begin to  imitate it here with our hardy band of adventurers!

Well the hour is almost upon us, tomorrow is New Year's Eve, how exciting to be anticipating a year full of great reading AND most importantly, discussing! I can't wait.  I picture you all with your herring and sour cream New Year's Eve treats,  happily perusing the pages of all those books you hoped to get to, NOW we will!!!

Hopefully you'll nominate a book, and tell us why you think it might be interesting to read. Tell us something about it (other than it's gathering moss on my shelves  hahaha)...look the  book up and see what seems interesting about it. I hope we can get a real conversation going here on the pros and cons of our nominees.

AND I am super excited because today brought a new book in the mail  I have longed to see ever since I heard about it, it's new, it's called The Classical Tradition. I don't know if it will address anything we'll take up here, and it's possible it won't, but I read at random this afternoon when it came,  about the sirens---the page just happened to fall on it, to give an idea of the entries, it's kind of an encyclopedia I guess.

It's about,  first,  the subject in antiquity, who mentioned it, etc., who enlarged on it, etc., and then through the ages until today. Naturally they can't cover every subject,  but the sirens were most interesting. For instance they explained when the sirens  lost the bodies  of birds which Odysseus (Ulysses) saw in the Odyssey,   but which confusingly seem to become  more mermaid  like in art and literature,   and all sorts of things. I really enjoyed that ONE entry, which took me forever to read;  the book is almost 1,100 gigantic pages.   (I mean, come on, we think of "sirens" as alluring, how alluring is this one?) hahaha, maybe if you're an ornithologist?   But it wasn't, apparently, the physicality. It's like having an annotated voice in your head or something. Highly recommended!

This is SO exciting, I can't wait! My own list of unread works is gigantic and I hope with this great group assembled to have a wonderful experience at last!

Everyone is welcome!

[roshanarose]

JoanK - Thanks for this interesting snippet about the headless Roman soldiers.  A long time ago I went to a lecture about this very topic.  The lecturer said it had a lot to do with Celtic customs.  

I have a wee book called "A Beginner's Guide to the Timeless Wisdom of the Celts".  As to be expected the book does not go into much detail, just enough to whet the appetite.  I will quote the entry entitled "The cult of the head"

The head had special significance for the Celts, who believed it contained the soul.  Warriors cut off the heads of their enemies, replaced the brains with a lime mixture or preserved the heads with oil and then displayed them as trophies.  Numerous carvings of heads were used to decorate doorways and the hallways of ancient sanctuaries.  The sacred skull was a feature of the cult of the dead or of the blessed ancestors.

The above quote is only part of the explanation.  I am sure a search for the cult of the head would reveal more information.

I spent last evening in the Roman Empire! My PBS station (KOCE) had three programs back to back about the Romans.

The first was a segment of their regular archeological program (Secrets of the Dead). It dealt with the mystery of the skeletons of 44 beheaded Romam soldiers that were unearthed in Kent, England, and dated around 200 AD. Who had beheaded them and why? Their proposed answer dealt with the palace politics of the time -- the current Roman Emporor was in Kent organizing raids across Hadrians Wall to subdue the Caladonians. (Interestingly, he had to learn the same lesson we relearned in Vietnam -- that a regular army can't deal with guerilla warfare). When he died, his successor killed anyone who had opposed him, and the theory is that these soldiers had done so in some way.

More later.

[Gumtree]

The Celtic  practice of decapitating heads and displaying them continued in England for centuries...

The following relates to London Bridge - (alas! its from Wikipedia)

The Northern Gate, the New Stone Gate, was replaced by Nonsuch House in 1577. The southern gatehouse, the Stone Gateway, became the scene of one of London's most notorious sights: a display of the severed heads of traitors, impaled on pikes[1] and dipped in tar to preserve them against the elements. The head of William Wallace was the first to appear on the gate, in 1305, starting a tradition that was to continue for another 355 years. Other famous heads on pikes included those of Jack Cade in 1450, Thomas More in 1535, Bishop John Fisher in the same year, and Thomas Cromwell in 1540. In 1598 a German visitor to London Paul Hentzner counted over 30 heads on the bridge[8]:

“ On the south is a bridge of stone eight hundred feet in length, of wonderful work; it is supported upon twenty piers of square stone, sixty feet high and thirty broad, joined by arches of about twenty feet diameter. The whole is covered on each side with houses so disposed as to have the appearance of a continued street, not at all of a bridge.
Upon this is built a tower, on whose top the heads of such as have been executed for high treason are placed on iron spikes: we counted above thirty..
 ”
The practice was finally stopped in 1660, following the Restoration of King Charles II.

Ginny: Yep - I'd like to emulate my son's practice of regular reading from the classics - but early morning is just no good for me or more accurately,  I'm just too lazy. BTW you can forget the herrings and sour cream - I'll be having gorgeous prawns from the barbeque...

[Babi]

 GINNY, I'm glad you identified Mark Noble. From what I could see of the face within the helmet, I could have mistaken him for Patrick Stewart. Since he referred to 'small numbers' of his army, I guess they were going with the '100,000' historian.
 My opinion of King Charles II just went up markedly. I had no idea the
display of heads was still going on up to 1660. I suppose my 'picture' of
Charles II was influenced by this little witticism, from a courtier named
Wilmot:
  We have a pretty witty King,
whose word no man relies on;
He never said a foolish thing,
And never did a wise one.
 To which Charles is reputed to have replied "that the matter was easily
accounted for: For that his discourse was his own, his actions were the
ministry's." The man did have a quick wit.

[ginny]

What? Prawns on the barbie? Herring in sour cream tonight, mince pie tomorrow, good luck everywhere, (actually mince pie every day of the 12 Days of Christmas and at the end you are 800 lbs but very lucky.) hahaha

Babi, I have to say I'm a fan: The man just runs away with the movie.  The scene shown on youtube  is not his best but I love his Latin.

No the Roman numbers of 10,000 are considered accurate, the other numbers are up for grabs, like all recountings in battle of the Romans, the numbers of the enemy may be exaggerated. The point is there were a LOT of them and the Romans  were overwhelmed and trapped. Good, you may say?

The interesting thing about  Boudicca, and you can see it here in the fascinating talk of the heads thing, thank you Roshannarose, Gum, and Babi, is the Celts themselves apparently were  no saints, either: a warrior nation, who, lacking an enemy, fought amongst  themselves.  Boudicca  and her daughters herself, if you read beyond the exciting Warrior Queen thing, actually took such revenge on  helpless women who had nothing to do with the rape of her daughters as to make you sick for a week. I would not read it, if you are impressionable, you'll have nightmares for  a long time.  Nothing.... seems as easy to understand or  clear cut as it would seem on the face of it,  you have to dig deep, and that's what we hope we can add to our discussion here, or what I hope for, some depth of understanding;  between all of you we can suss out the backgrounds,  and understand, I hope, some of these books, in ways we would not,  alone, for a memorable and exciting time.  A useful and productive use of time.  I can't wait!

The chart is in the heading, waiting. I can't wait to come in and see what you want to read, and most importantly, WHY. We can only choose one to start, let's discuss the contenders, be our own Oscar Judging committee!

Every member of the group here will bring something to the table unique to him or her, we hope to have a veritable smorgasbord of ideas to bounce off of in the New Year!~

What's better than a truly GOOD book, one which has stood the test of the ages, unless it's a great bunch of intelligent people to discuss it WITH?  Fun, fun FUN in the New Year!

Everyone is more than welcome!

 

[roshanarose]

Re Mark Noble - he is, as my father used to say (although not about men, a good sort.

Ginny - Do you mean us to fill in the table at the top of the page?  It wouldn't work for me when I tried to enter the information. 

"The Odyssey"  Homer is my pic.

[Babi]

 I'm going to nominate two books here and assume the clever tecs will
transfer them to the grid.  I'm nominating "Plutarch's 'Lives' " and "The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius".

[ginny]

Yahoo and Happy New Year!! No we'll just post our nominations here! Now why the Odyssey over all the hundreds of others? I'll put it up now, our first nomination of 2011!!

Let's discuss!  It would be so  exciting to me to do the Odyssey, we first did it in 1996, in fact, it was our first Great Books on SeniorNet, so much has happened in the last ...gosh, is it....it can't be....15 years? But we're a whole different bunch now.

AND in looking up the sirens I just found the most incredible site on artworks  centering on the Odyssey,  so if we were to choose that one (we'll vote January 15-22),  we won't lack for artistic illustrations,  and I'm sure you all can find even more! In fact, there are tons of sites on the art of anything we'd choose, really. A rich feast!

What commends you to the Odyssey? (Anybody here drive a.. is it Honda Odyssey?)

PS, I looked it up, does Fagles have a new translation as of November 10, 2010? See this link which I'm trying to put in the heading:

The Odyssey

YAHOO!

[ginny]

OH and Happy New Year, Babi, with two great new nominations,  thank you! Plutarch's Lives and the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius, why those two, tell us what you think might be interesting about either? It's amazing how many people are now reading Marcus Aurelius and how many have not read Plutarch, up they go!
 
What interests you about both of them?

[ginny]

Oh my word, I tell you what let's do? If nominating, will you please supply a review or a line or two anyway, (and this is new, and we will have to tweak it as we go to suit ourselves) because the reviews are breathtaking and make you want to rush right out and get a copy.

For instance on the Odyssey:

Robert Fagles's translation is a jaw-droppingly beautiful rendering of Homer's Odyssey, the most accessible and enthralling epic of classical Greece. Fagles captures the rapid and direct language of the original Greek, while telling the story of Odysseus in lyrics that ring with a clear, energetic voice. The story itself has never seemed more dynamic, the action more compelling, nor the descriptions so brilliant in detail. It is often said that every age demands its own translation of the classics. Fagles's work is a triumph because he has not merely provided a contemporary version of Homer's classic poem, but has located the right language for the timeless character of this great tale. Fagles brings the Odyssey so near, one wonders if the Hollywood adaption can be far behind. This is a terrific book. -(Amazon.com review)

On Marcus Aurelius: (which, note, has an annotated edition). THOSE would be most useful, if any of you have them. We could really use them.

With facing-page commentary that explains the texts for you, Russell McNeil, PhD, guides you through key passages from Aurelius's Meditations, comprised of the emperor's collected personal journal entries, to uncover the startlingly modern relevance his words have today. From devotion to family and duty to country, to a near-prophetic view of the natural world that aligns with modern physics, Aurelius's words speak as potently today as they did two millennia ago.

Now you can discover the tenderness, intelligence and honesty of Aurelius's writings with no previous background in philosophy or the classics. This SkyLight Illuminations edition offers insightful and engaging commentary that explains the historical background of Stoicism, as well as the ways this ancient philosophical system can offer psychological and spiritual insight into your contemporary life. You will be encouraged to explore and challenge Aurelius's ideas of what makes a fulfilling life--and in so doing you may discover new ways of perceiving happiness.

(Amazon review)

On Plutarch:

Plutarch's Lives lives! This is an astonishing volume. Who would have expected a "page turner" out of a tome written in the 2nd century A.D.? So much for cultural and temporal hubris--this is magnificent reading.

(Amazon review).


Wow!~ Already three of the brightest and best and I hope many more to come. We won't waste a minute if we read any of these!

Bring 'em on,  bring us a review too so we can whet our appetites. Wow! I want to read all three right now, because, don't you see, with THIS group it will be such an exciting journey!

Bring 'em on!!

[ALF43]

Ginny- I have laughed for 10 minutes over your comments.  You are funny!

Ornithologists?  Mermaids?  You need help girl.
 However, I do sort of like the Noble guy.  My brain is a still abit fuzzy from all of the festivities last evening.  Yep, i had the herring and a ga-zillion crab legs.  OK I may have sported a glass or 2-3-4 of wine. 
 

[bookad]

wow Ginny

your excitement makes me wonder why with all the reading I have done I never pursued any classics, I only went to nursing school, never university where the English courses might have opened that door for me

when I was in Corpus Christi the second hand book store classic section I bought 2 books, not even sure if they were what was  intended in this group but here goes (please do not take these as any suggestions, they are only for my own interest in trying to start somewhere--my intent is to follow the groups suggestions since you guys sound like you certainly have a background in this arena)

book 1: Philosophical Classics, the thinking person's guide to the great philosophical books
                      edited by James M. Russell
            the intent of this book is only an introduction to the philosophical classics
               and to answer ??why I would want to read this book(of the books discussed )[/i]
book 2: Nietzsche  by Laurence Gane
                (this is a graphic nonfiction book--have never had an interest in this format before)

concern am I anywhere close to what the classics entail??

anyway Happy New Year Everyone
Deb

[rosemarykaye]

I would like to do Plutarch because Shakespeare seems to have used him so much.  The Odyssey, however, would also be great.  In fact, I will happily do whatever is recommended!

Rosemary

[ginny]

Andrea, hahaha.

Bookad, what interesting books, I'd like to hear more about the graphic Nietzsche, have not heard of either.

I am so glad you brought this up because you've actually gotten to the true heart of the thing.

Of course "classic  books" covers a lot of territory, the Western Canon for instance which includes authors much more recent than our old guys.

What we're going to do here, at least at first,  is limit our nominations and reading to the Ancients in  Translation, which as we've noted is standard college fare, usually there's one course in Greek Literature in Translation and one in Latin Literature in Translation in any Liberal Arts course, (the theory being it's a shame to miss them if you can't read the original),  and we'll read books by the ancients in translation, so no previous knowledge is required.

Then when we READ them, our task will be to apply what they say to us today and here is where your books will be invaluable, I mean Aurelius alone if we choose him, his Stoic philosophy.  I am an imbecile on philosophy. I have always found it most difficult, and the one required course I took in it almost incomprehensible.

I mean look at Babi and Alf on the Horace. I took him literally! I thought he meant if you can eat without your stomach bleeding and your heart will allow you to get up from your chair,  and your feet will allow you to walk, you're rich. But look at what they made of it! Philosophy! Which type of philosophy did each espouse? I don't know!

 I just read Plutarch on the death of Cato the Younger and again, the PHILOSOPHY he had was pretty stunning, where did he get that? It's the IDEAS  each of these ancient books will espouse we'll really want to talk about: is it ours today?

Golly if you've got those two books you'll be an invaluable resource, I remember (I am ashamed to say it) nothing of Nietzsche, but if we could incorporate him and your first book into the 2,000 year old philosophies we'll find, we'll be in hog heaven!

I find philosophy quite difficult and we would ALL be the richer for your sharing what's in those books (start reading!) hahaha

Hopefully whatever book we start with will seem as fresh to us as 2011, but several things will need explanations: the historical background, the references, the philosophy (what WAS a Stoic and how does that apply in 2011) the mythology, the art, and what other writers made of it, it's endless.

I hope this answers, however badly, your excellent questions. I have to go out for a bit but everybody nominate on, your nominations will appear in the heading. Initially we'll limit our nominations to those authors of antiquity but anything you have got which bears on any aspect of the subject will be sorely needed: it will be a group project, beginning to end.

Everyone is welcome!

[ginny]

Rosemary, a good point on Plutarch. We could, for instance, choose the sections Shakespeare wrote about, say, Coriolanus, or Julius Caesar, or Antony and Cleopatra, or Brutus, or the death of Pompey. We can't read Plutarch straight thru, but we can pick and choose.

One of the reviewers on Amazon suggests Plutarch on  Crassus, as a starting point:  surely a man for our own times. What IS it about a man who seems to have everything but who wants to be something else? The actor or rock star who admires the athlete? The athlete who wants to be a rock star? What IS it that drives a man to want something he does not have or to be something he is not?

Crassus, the richest man in the Roman Empire, who was also of the highest political office, (think the  so called First Triumvirate),  but who WANTED to be a victorious general in battle. Had himself made a suit of golden armor. His story beats most of those you'll read today, you'll never forget it,  and it is real.

Most of the great stories are IN Plutarch.

 We can also compare what Shakespeare did with it, if we liked. It will all be up to you all!

[BarbStAubrey]

Great suggestions and so whatever is chosen I will be delighted - but I must throw in for considerations "Antigone" I have not read it but I  understand the tragedy is built around a change of events that was out of her hands and imagination - a surprise that floored her - I would like to discover how thousands of  year ago a woman reacts and acts toward the shock and how her experience was talked about and handled...

[ALF43]

Ginny- don't be silly, everyday you philosophize!  It is an attitude, a common sense approach that can be pondered- thought about, talked about, mussed over.  Many times it is profound, other times simple reasoning.  You are a sophist and don't know it.

[ginny]

Oh another good one, thank you  Barbara! Interesting to me is that Amazon wanted to offer it in conjunction with Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe. THAT says something about how relevant the theme is today!

Here are two reviews of Antigone from Amazon:

To make this quintessential Greek drama more accessible to the modern reader, this Prestwick House Literary Touchstone Edition™ includes a glossary of difficult terms, a list of vocabulary words, and convenient sidebar notes. By providing these, it is our intention that readers will more fully enjoy the beauty, wisdom, and intent of the play. The curse placed on Oedipus lingers and haunts a younger generation in this new and brilliant translation of Sophocles’ classic drama. The daughter of Oedipus and Jocasta, Antigone is an unconventional heroine who pits her beliefs against the King of Thebes in a bloody test of wills that leaves few unharmed. Emotions fly as she challenges the king for the right to bury her own brother. Determined but doomed, Antigone shows her inner strength throughout the play. Antigone raises issues of law and morality that are just as relevant today as they were more than two thousand years ago. Whether this is your first reading or your twentieth, Antigone will move you as few pieces of literature can.

I bought this book for my 10th grade English students to read. The language is understandable, but offers some challenging words to use for vocabulary purposes. The sidebar information is informative and helpful. The introductory information about the play itself, Greek mythology and Greek tragedy gives the students good background information. The book explains what a "classic" is and why classics are important. Finally, it gives the students what themes and conflicts to look for.

Andrea, a sophist? I'll look that one up!  Maybe there's a Philosophical Index we can take after our first read which will tell us which philosophy we espouse, that would be fun.

 This is going to be fascinating, all around.


Everyone is welcome!

[JoanK]

WOW! I'm getting excited too! All of these reviews sound so great. I'm not going to vote for the Odyssy, only because I've already read it, and I'm up for something new. But if it's chosen, that will be great, too.

ROSE: the two different explanations of the beheaded Roman soldiers are interesting. I'll bet that Roman scholars think the Romans did it and Celtic scholars think the Celts did it.

[ALF43]

I learned in my "Socrates Cafe" group that philosophy is not only for the college graduate student or the "highly intellectual" people, it is the love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and self discipline (I'm still working on that one.)
 Truly, we do it here all of the time.  We discuss our thoughts openly and honestly with one another, questioning assumptions in a discussion without fear of being attacked because our opinion my be different.  That's philosophy and you, Ginny are an A student.

[JoanK]

Socrates cafe? Tell us about that.

[ALF43]

JoanK- It is a group who meets twice a month.  Socrates Cafe, technically, is a book written by Chris Phillips,, author and co-founder of the Society for philosophical Inquiry.  He developed the idea of Socrates Cafe to do as Socrates did, bring philosophy to the everyday people who seem to know a lot about everything.  We politely sit and discuss a plethora of subjects and usually wind up asking more questions than opinionating. (Is that a word?)