Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online

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Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin

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"More books about Abraham Lincoln line the shelves of libraries than about any other American. Can there be anything new to say about our 16th president? Surprisingly, the answer is yes. - ..... Doris Kearns Goodwin has written an elegant, incisive study of Lincoln......." - New York Times The Team: William H. Seward Salmon P. Chase Edward Bates .........      Links: NPR Review Wilmot Proviso Dred Scott Decision Kansas-Nebraska Act Fugitive Slave Law ......... March 1 -  Chapters l-3 March 8 -  Chapters 4-7 March 15 -Chapters 8-11 March 22 - Chapters 12-15 March 29 - Chapters 16-19 April 5 -      Chapters 20-23 April 12 -    Chapters 24 -26

To Consider 1.  Putting Lincoln to one side, which of the men (the rivals) would you most like to meet and why?  Which (if you were a woman) would you most likely marry and why?  Start a business with? 2.  What one quality do each of these men have in common, including Lincoln?  Is that quality necessary for any person who enters politics? 3.  Seward said he discovered “politics was the important and engrossing business of the country.”  Does it still seem that way to you?  How important is it to have a two-party system in our government? 4.  Lincoln had a very strong desire to “engrave his name in history”  and believed that” ideas of a person’s worth are tied to the way others perceive him.”   Do you believe this?  Is this contradictory to the belief in yourself and your own worth?  Your religious faith? 5.  Lincoln had a “strained” relationship with his father.  Is there a possibility that Lincoln was inspired to become a better man, a more educated man, one with a future because of his father? 6.  At an early age, Lincoln lost two of the women he most needed and loved - his mother and sister.  What affect did this have on the boy, if any? 7.  Can ambition ruin a marriage?   Does a wife influence her husband?  Is it necessary to be married to have a political future? 8.  Were you surprised at the passion in the letters quoted in the book?

Discussion Leaders: Ella & PatH

[Ella Gibbons]

WELCOME EVERYONE! 

Here we are on a nice clean page, ready to start our discussion of Goodwin's Book.  It's a good one, isn't it?

We had an interesting time in the pre-discussion which was, in good part, about Lincoln, but here we will concentrate on his rivals and what they meant to him, how they helped or hindered his administration.

There are questions in the heading on the first three chapters of our book.

Let's get started!  The first question is one that you, alone, can answer, having read what the book says about these men, the first three chapters of the book.  This is going to be fun! 

YOUR OPINION, PLEASE!

[PatH]

Hi, and welcome to all.  I'm still a bit jet-lagged, so I'll be back in a few hours.  It's good to have started.

[hats]

PatH and Ella,

I'm sorry. I have decided not to be a part of discussion. I feel the book is over my head. I will read some of the comments. I hope all of you will have a wonderful and meaningful discussion.

[JoanK]

Here we go!! I must admit, in spite of Goodwin's careful writing to introduce us to these men, I still get them confused. I'd have to look again to see whether I'd like to marry one.

But the short answer is no way!! I'd have to be a politicians wife, meaning I'd spend my life doing all the things I dislike the most: dressing up and meeting and greeting people I didn't know, being endlessly cordial and spending hours listening to boring speeches. And when I was made, the tact-bone was left out: it would only be a matter of time before I stuck my big foot in my mouth and ruined my husband's career. Never mind a career of my own: in that time, it would have been difficult to have one. But not impossible.

I have a question: Goodwin says these four men illustrate the paths taken by ambitious young men to rise at that time. How do you see these paths differing from the paths taken by such young people today?

[BarbStAubrey]

Save me a chair please

[Jonathan]

I can see already that this is going to be a lively discussion. Hats  makes a good point in saying that the book is 'over my head.' It is overwhelming in its detail. I would go so far as to say that the book is a thriller for the political junky, a feast for the history buff, and a revelation for the student of human nature. I'm sure, Hats, the comments will draw you back into the discussion.

I can see where impressions will have to be corrected. How can you talk about boring speeches, JoanK? It was the age of great speeches. Reputations were built on them. Moving a crowd or a roomful of legislators was the order of the day. The true hero was the guy who could make the best speech. Nobody was better on a stump than Abraham Lincoln, even as a lad entertaining his friends.

The questions are very good, provocative. Hardly know where to begin in attempting to answer them. Perhaps I'll store them in my subconscious, like bait, and wait for bites.

Whom would you likely marry? For me, of course,  this is academic. But I would feel inclined to follow Mary Todd's instincts in choosing a husband. She sensed immediately that Lincoln could make it to the White House, where she herself would like to be. Can there be any doubt that she must have kept the hope alive, during the difficult years when Lincoln got discourage?

What did Lincoln and his rivals have in common? The only thing I can think of is ambition. In fact Goodwin harps on that theme, comments on it at every turn. Quotes the rivals themselves on the subject, in the best American sense, not the gloomy, tragic view that Shakespeare tries to unload on his theater patrons.

When all is said and done, which it is not, since we're just setting out in our discussion, the rivals all set out in search of fame. Was one more ambitious than the others? Hardly. But it must be Lincoln who succeeded beyond his wildest  dreams. There he sits enthroned on The Mall, looking down on all the world like a true Olympian. He may have set out wanting to be a poet. Obviously the poetical pursues him throughout his carreer, and beyond.

[PatH]

Hats, we'll miss you.  I hope you will at least lurk some, and enjoy whatever appeals to you.

This book has one difficulty at first.  Because Goodwin shifts back and forth among the men, and also back and forth in time a bit, it's hard to keep them straight.  For me, everything fell in place in chapter 3, and i finally got a clearer idea of each man and what happened when in his life.  So anyone who is confused, take heart.

Jonathan, of course you wouldn't want to marry one of them, but, aside from Lincoln, which man would you most like to meet?

[Ella Gibbons]

What a great start!  Thank you all for your posts!

JOAN! You wouldn't like any of them, marry any of them, you cannot visualize yourself being tactful, or dressing up? 

The wives and daughters of our rivals were so important to these politicians and Goodwin follows them faithfully through the book.   Seward, of N.Y., had his beautiful Frances, a remarkable women; Bates, of Missouri,  had Julia and Chase, of Ohio, after burying three wives, was fortunate that his beautiful daughter, Kate, loved the role of hostess.

The three men are first introduced on page 10 of our book.

And to answer your good question about young men I think ambition is a quality all young politicians must have; whether yesteryear or today.  Certainly they do not go into politics for the money!  It helps, but Rockefeller never made it all the way

PAT, I am so glad you made it there and made it here!  We need you!

HATS, do follow along with us on this journey.  Three chapters of the book at a time; the first chapter introducing us to the rivals, the second and third chapters informing us of their rise to power, their families and influential friends. 

BARBARA, you have a chair right beside me and I'm waiting for your comments, your insight!

JONATHAN, I agree.  I love a good speech, although I think a few of them would, for me, be appreciated better if I read them, rather than stood for an hour or so and listened.  For example, Lincoln's Cooper Union speech, the speech that launched his bid for the presidency.

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/cooper.htm

I need to read it to understand all the nuances, the effect on its listeners and particularly the effect on the South!  Wow!

And there was Lincoln in NEW YORK - Seward's home state!  The battle begins.

Do join us as we follow all of them!

[Ella Gibbons]

If I had to pick one of these men for a partner, it wouldn’t be Chase, but then he is from my home state, shouldn’t I be loyal?  He’s very tall, dignified, very religious, neither smoked or drank, wealthy,  a governor.; all traits of character that any woman would want as a husband, and obviously he had no trouble with finding wives.  Three of them, all died young!  Imagine the heartache! 

Goodwin, to me at least, seems to write with greater enthusiasm of Seward, the Easterner, a great speaker, witty, wealthy,  one who “could inspire a cow with statesmanship if she understood our language” (Henry Miller).  Very radical in his opinions, particularly on slavery  (as all these rivals were), he practiced law for a few years and finding it boring, he turned to politics.

Did it seem to you that Goodwin is favoring Seward?

Bates, the man of the west, a former slaveholder who emancipated his slaves, was recruited to run by powerful friends in Congress.  Julia, his wife, had 17 children!!!!  Forever pregnant, only eight of them survived.  Perhaps Julia wanted him to leave home??  No, No, they were a very close and loving family and one wonders why he accepted the challenge! 

But keep your eye on a friend of his from Missouri - Francis Preston Blair.  Perhaps you have knowledge of the Blair House in Washington, D.C.?  I am sure  you do!!

Now how about Lincoln?  What do you think?  His rivals were all wealthy, educated men, how did he stack up?

[mabel1015j]

As i am listening to the book on cd's until i get the hard cover from the library, i'll just respnd to you comments, because it's hard to keep all the details in my head.

Yes, Ella, Doris and i would be rivals for Seward's hand. He sounds like the most interesting man of the three and seems to be closest to my personal philosophy about issues and being "witty and wealthy" doesn't diminish his appearl!............I know i would not be drawn to Chase, he sounds too straight-laced for me, and I'm pretty sure i would not be drawn to the "melancholy" Lincoln. Altho, his wit and story-telling and a way of turning a phrase  might change my mind. I remember at the beginning Kearns says someone described him as looking very sad until he started to speak and then his whole face changed, so I might be persuaded by his personality when he wasn't melancholy..............jean

[mabel1015j]

I find it interesting that Seward said politics was the important and engrossing business of the country, since i have taught that it was television that has made politics such a prominent topic of discussion in our society.
I had the sense that because people would not know what their politicians looked like, or did not hear about them every day or even every week or month that it would be difficult for them to be engrossed in politics.
Many people did not read, so it would only be what they heard about the issues or the politicians from others that would give them a framework to have an opinion. For those who did read, they might seldom see a newspaper or a broadside giving them any information.
I always stressed to my students about how different it would be not to have radio and television, or magazines or newspapers, now i'm wondering if i over did that?...............................jean

[JoanK]

JONATHAN: "How can you talk about boring speeches, JoanK? It was the age of great speeches."

Yes, but I'll bet that for every great speech there were 100 boring ones. Have you listened to Congress, lately? And by the time the great speech came along, my feet would hurt too much from standing to listen.

MABEL: When I lived in Israel, there was no TV. Although there were Radio and newspapers, many Israelis were just learning Hebrew. In spite of this Politics was the number one sport.

Remember, the people of Lincoln's era didn't have movies, national sports, soap operas etc. So where are they going to get their dramas from, if not politics? (As I spent the morning flipping back and forth between a Lakers game and a budget hearing).

[bellamarie]

Ella, hello!  I am going to lurk and learn if you don't mind.  I have so many committments for this month, and I was absolutely horrible in history.   I am amazed at all the knowledge you all have.  I am so excited Senior Learn is up and running! 

[PatH]

Welcome, Bellamarie!  By all means lurk. The book is so wide-ranging that you are bound to find things that interest you.

[Mippy]

Hi, everyone!  I'm not sure I'll be able to participate as things
are getting busy this month.   But I have read several chapters.

Driving ambition is surely what all of these men have in common.

I find it odd to speculate on who to marry ... this is rarely how
I think when I read non-fiction.   But enjoy the imagination
if you like that.

[hats]

Three chapters a week I won't get another chance like this one. I will enjoy reading comments. I prefer to lurk some others here. Thanks for the encouragement.

[hats]

I can't see what is immediately in front of me. Is the chapter schedule in the heading? Thanks.

[PatH]

That's strange, hats, the schedule is gone from the heading--it was there.  Yes,this week, starting March 1, is Chapters 1-3, etc.  Thanks for noticing.  I'll get it fixed.

[Ella Gibbons]

"I'm pretty sure i would not be drawn to the "melancholy" Lincoln" - Jean

You're doing fine listening to the CD, JEAN, and thanks for your comments!  Lincoln's personality is unpredictable, isn't it?  He's very depressed at times (all authors seem to use the word, "melancholy" in regards to him); even to the point of going to a doctor with his problems, long before pschologists became the route to mental health.  At one point, he was so depressed that he  said he was "willing to die, but that he had done nothing to make any human being remember that he had lived."  (pg.99).

A propellant into politics?  Obama-like?   Being remembered, making a difference.

Do you think about being remembered?   Does it matter to you?

BELLEMARIE!  Hello my friend!  Yes, do linger and you may even be inspired to get the book.  It reads well and we are going slow!   It will be a good discussion, a "lively" one, as Jonatha said.

Thanks, MIPPY, for your comments.  Keep reading and making a post now and then.

Why not speculate -  use our imagination, - as we read history?  WHAT WOULD WE HAVE DONE DURING THE PRE-CIVIL WAR DAYS?  WHICH SIDE WOULD WE BE ON? 

Was it true then, as now, that our environment when young determines our attitudes, our pursuits?  If you  had lived in the south and had slaves, would you free them?  Would you be a confederate?  On the side of the Union?

Was it all about slavery or states' rights?  Speculation.

But we are getting ahead of our assignments.

[Ella Gibbons]

Where did those chapter assignments go?  Well, PAT is going to fix the problem.  Thanks!

[JoanK]

I found out lately that at the same time that the US was argueing about slavery, Russia was going through the same thing to free the serfs (who were in effect slaves). They were able to do so peacably.

Why, at this time, do people find themselves unable to tolerate a system that had been tolerated for generations?

[JoanK]

Was it about slavery? States rights? The clash between manufacturers and landowners for power (as some European analysts say?) All of these?

[hats]

I found out lately that at the same time that the US was argueing about slavery, Russia was going through the same thing to free the serfs (who were in effect slaves). They were able to do so peacably.
JoanK

I remember learning about serfdom in school. The problem is I can't remember the difference between American slavery and serfdom in Europe. I do believe to be a serf was an easier burden. If a person looks physically different from the captor, I feel the burden is heavier for the enslaved person.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/s028.htm

Thank you Pat and Ella and PatH for the chapter schedule.

[bellamarie]

Ella, you know I can be lively from our past discussions.  
I'm still trying to get through all your pre discussion posts.  How very interesting.

[BarbStAubrey]

As I remember Serfs are tied to the land where as slaves are owned by a master and go with the master.

[hats]

Barbara,

That's my understanding too.

[Jonathan]

'Was it all about slavery or states' rights?  Speculation.

But we are getting ahead of our assignments.' Ella, post 19

Yes, that's all down the road, awating these ambitious young men, striving for fame and glory. How eager they are to run the race...and win. Suffering under a hail of slings and arrows, they are nevertheless determined to fight on to reach their goal. Pity the young Lincoln:

'willing to die, but that he had "done nothing to make any human being remember that he had lived..." '

or the somewhat older Chase:

'Sometimes I feel as if I could give up - as if I must give up. And then after all I rise and press on.'

In his diary, years earlier, Chase had reminded himself how he was eager to overcome the obstacles and difficulties in his way...'ere I could hope to reach the steep where Fame's proud temple shines, (complete with) deserved honor, eminent usefulness and a "crown of glory" '. 'But death has pursued me incessantly ever since I was twenty-five....Sometimes I feel as if I could give up....' p41

Too true. After losing three beloved wives.

Lincoln's melancholy seems more problematical. Goodwin suggests in her introduction that it was a temperamental thing with Lincoln. The crisis of 1841 seems to have been a matter of his world falling apart. He had broken up with Mary. He was losing his best friend, Speed, with whom he had shared digs for several years. The suffering left its mark on him, but also gave him strengths to see him through the trials of the future.

The other two rivals seemed to have got through life unscathed. Seward went on from glory to glory in his political career. I get the impression that Bates was coming out of retirement, for one more fling at high office.

And doesn't Goodwin get a lot of drama into her story. It's nice to see the wives being drawn into the plot. And the daughter Kate Chase. I'm sorry we never get to meet Mary Ellen McClellan, who was always getting those letters straight from the battlefield, from her commanding husband...writing letters when he should have been fighting.

[marjifay]

Hi all-- I'm late getting started.  But the book and discussion are really interesting.  Yes, Jonathan, there is a lot of drama here, isn't there?

Am just getting past Goodwin's very interesting descriptions of the four men waiting anxiously for the results of the nomination process.  Did they have telephones then?  I guess they had to rely on that morse code gadget--what was it called?

Anyway, the one man I know I wouldn't have been able to live with is Salmon Chase.  Appropriate name (fish, and a cold one at that!)  He seemed to want to have every minute of his time planned.  I like spontaneity --doing things on the spur of the moment just because they're fun.  He didn't believe in the theater or novels.  That would never do.  And of course my being an atheist would help either.  I suspect his three wives may have died of boredom!

Wikipedia (and probably this book also) says Lincoln had only eighteen months of formal schooling.  That's amazing.  I too wondered who or what goaded Lincoln's ambition after reading about his father. 

[Ella Gibbons]

I have only a few minutes this morning, just enough time to read all your posts!

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR INTEREST!

In the book, Exploring Abraham Lincoln's 'Melancholy' Siegel states that the principal factors behind depression are biological predisposition and environmental influences and goes to examine the particulars of Lincoln's mental problems.   You might find it interesting:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4976127

Also, there is short video of our author, Goodwin, being interviewed on that same NPR site.

JEAN made an interesting comment and I quote: "Seward said politics was the important and engrossing business of the country -   i have taught that it was television that has made politics such a prominent topic of discussion in our society."

Perhaps.  How would it have been in those days - the early 1800's?   So much to discuss besides the weather and the crops! 

Back later.................  on my way to the dentist.

[PatH]

My husband was from Springfield, Il, and one thing to do when visiting his mother was to go look at New Salem, which is about 30 miles away.  It's a good way to appreciate what Lincoln accomplished.  It's so limited, so sparse, so small, just basic necessities.

The other men we're reading about all had good starts.  They were relatively well-off to start with, though some of them had stretches of poverty or had to go live with relatives.  They all had good educations, and help of one sort or another.

Lincoln had nothing, absolutely nothing. Everything he accomplished was done completely by the sheer weight of his own ability, and looking at this teeny place where he honed his legal sklls and ran for the state legislature drives this home.

[PatH]

Here's a link to some pictures of New Salem:

http://www.galenfrysinger.com/new_salem_illinois.htm


It's kind of annoying to work through, but lots of good pix.  The ones on the opening page aren't so interesting, but between the red words New Salem and the pictures are squiggles labeled Lincoln's store, villagers, and village businesses, which lead you to more.

At the top are more squiggles, one of them Lincoln's home.  Bob had some unkind things to say about that horsehair sofa.  His grandmother had one almost like it, and it turns out that the horsehairs break off and stick up--sharp little points to torment the bottom of a little boy who is supposed to be sitting still.  Bob's parents are buried within sight of Lincoln's tomb.

[Ella Gibbons]

Great pictures, PATH, so clear.  If I had baked a cake in that crude manner, that is all I could have done that day, I think???  What hard work they all did!  "Down by the old mill stream" - I saw the old mill, and all the others.  THANK YOU!!!

I was thinking of JEAN'S statement about the news and MARJIFAY'S question about telegrams (yes, they had them!) and I tried to find a site about postal history.  The only one was:

http://www.usps.com/postalhistory/significantdates.htm?from=PostalHistoryCenter&page=SignificantDates

which is interesting.  The pony express was just coming in.  I know the city folks got the newspaper, didn't Benjamin Franklin start a printing press a few decades ago?  How did rural folk get the news?  When they came into town?  You can understand how they would have stood for an hour, two hours or so, to hear a political speech, particularly one from Lincoln who used simple stories to illustrate his points. And they probably talked about that speech for days, weeks!

I think the news on TV became entertainment when cable came in; all these commentators competing for the good story.  Much as reporters used to do, but different in that they are alive and in our homes.  I don't know whether it is good or not. 

HELLO MARJIFAY I'm so happy  you made it here and are joining us!  You and Lincoln would have made it together, he was not a religious man according to Goodwin, if I remember rightly. 

But Chase must have been a bit more friendly than we are all giving him credit for; his daughter loved him dearly and he wooed and married three wives.  His friendship with Stanton (who plays a big part in Civil War politics) is curious; they wrote very loving letters to each other, one of which from Stanton says "let me take you by the hand, throw my arm around you, say I love you." 

THANKS, JONATHAN, for your comments, always appreciated, always right on the mark.  I agree, drama makes Goodwin's writing easy to read, she has a knack for getting into the characters, making them come alive.  As we follow these four men from their early political lives through the Civil War, we feel we know them very well.

[PatH]

Chase......His friendship with Stanton (who plays a big part in Civil War politics) is curious; they wrote very loving letters to each other, one of which from Stanton says "let me take you by the hand, throw my arm around you, say I love you." 

Goodwin points out that friendships between men that seem to us to be rather romantic were common then, and didn't necessarily have any erotic component.  She gives several examples: Seward had a close friendship with the newspaper publisher and political boss Thurlow Weed.  This was interrupted by the close attention of state senator Albert Tracy, which annoyed Seward, who stayed away in a sulk.  Seward eventually chose Weed, whereupon Tracy turned his attentions to Seward's wife.  The friendship was not physical, but a close intellectual friendship between a married woman and another man wasn't considered respectable, and she broke it off.

Lincoln had a very close friendship with Joshua Speed, the storekeeper he met when he first came to Springfield.

[Ella Gibbons]

Thanks, Pat, for the comment by Goodwin.  Here I believe that our author, in making a personal comment, is correct because we cannot judge behaviour of people by today's standards.  Or history.  Still the word "curious" is not a judgment, just my own opinion. 

Can we give a bit of consideration to the question of self-worth?  Do you see yourself as "others see you."  What is your basis for what your life is worth?  And how does one know what value others place upon your friendship, your love? 

Lincoln's believed, or stated,  that "” ideas of a person’s worth are tied to the way others perceive him.”   

[Ella Gibbons]

"We do not deal much in facts when we are contemplating ourselves" - Mark Twain  (smile)

"Of all the opinons which people entertain, the best one is that which they have of themselves."

[Jonathan]

Was Salman Chase's first wife an atheist? The following quote suggests  she may have been. The quote also throws a curious light on the uses made of a belief in the hereafter. Abe Lincoln, who could not accept the belief, admitted it would have been a great comfort after the death of his sweetheart Ann Rutledge.

For Chase it was a terror:

'Worst of all, Chase feared that Kitty had died without affirming her faith. He had not pushed her firmly enough toward God. "Oh if I had not contented myself with a few conversations on the subject of religion" he lamented in his diary, "if I had incessantly followed her with kind and earnest persuasion...she might have been before her death enrolled among the professed followers of the Lamb. But I procrastinated and now she is gone.

'His young wife's death shadowed all the days of his life. He was haunted by the vision that when he himself reached "the bar of God" he would meet her "as an accusing spirit," blaming him for her damnation. His guilt rekindled his religiious commitment, producing a "second conversion," a renewed determination never to let his fierce ambition supersede his religious duties.' Page 42-3

Without the hope of heaven, Lincoln was left brooding unhappily whenever he imagined the cruel  elements battering Ann's grave. I believe Lincoln did call on God when it suited his purpose, or assuaged an inner demon, but by and large he was a constitutionalist, and committed as well to the principles enunciated in the declaration of independence. He knew his Constitution inside and out. And that in the end made him a great president

[mabel1015j]

I know you said this is coming later, but i need to throw this in while i'm still remembering it..............Ella asked - Why, at this time, do people find themselves unable to tolerate a system that had been tolerated for generations? We have to go back to the Enlightenment, the 18th century, to a time when people were beginning to think about individuals' rights and the limitations of gov't - i.e. people have the right to select their gov't and to remove it if it's not working for them (political theory of John Locke and others)...................leading to our Dec of Independence, the American Rev, the French Rev, and a discussion about whether serfdom and slavery are appropriate behaviors of society. Some European countries had abolished slavery before our Civil War. It was a liberal political/social period and led to many improvements for individuals thruout the western world.

No telephones yet, but yes, the telegraph had been invented and for the first time information could move faster than a person could walk or ride......think about that.............The pony express had operated in the West, but was very soon overcome by the use of the telegraph. The pony express lasted only about a year, even tho it has been romantically talked about and pictured so that it seems as tho it must have been around for a longer period of time.

Yes, Ben Franklin was a printer and operated a print shop and post office in Philadelphia. You can see it replicated in Franklin Square on Market ST in Philly today. He actually had the postal contract for much of the east coast in the colonial and federalist periods and published newspapers in sev'l east coast cities. So, newspapers were available in the cities, rural people probably saw them a few weeks or months later. People got news by frequenting the taverns or inns were traveling people stopped and where newspapers and letters were often read aloud. 

Political speeches would have been one the dramas of the day, along w/ the traveling evangelists and some ministers, who provided drama in their sermons and especially at tent meetings.

I've often said to students, or people in my management training sessions, that we should all have a person follow us around for 5 days w/ a video camera so we could see ourselves in the way that others see us...............wouldn't that be interesting? What would we learn about ourselves - those unconscious body movements, words and inflections we didn't know we used? And i agree w/ Lincoln that we feel good about ourselves if others seem to approve of the things we say and do. .................wheewww! Soooo much to think about.........jean

[marjifay]

Jonathan, that was a very interesting post about Salmon Chase and his worry that he'd not talked to his wife enough about religion before she died, and was fearful apparently that he would not meet her in heaven, or that she'd blame him for her damnation.  That must have been a real worry to someone like him who believed all that stuff.  Sad as well.  (I assume you were quoting from Goodwin's book.)

I found a biography of him at Amazon that looks good, and I think I'll read it:  SALMON P. CHASE by John Niven.  Readers there give it 4-1/2 stars out of 5.  Booklist review says about it: "A brilliant account of the public and personal life of one of the most complex and fascinating major figures of the Civil War era.  Niven's smooth but thorough biography reminds us of the importance to history of a long-forgotten player."

By the way, I wonder what the correct pronunciation of his first name is

[lucky]

The question about which man you would like to marry brings up many issues.  To be honest I have to say I would not have wanted to be a woman in that time frame.  The death rate in childbirth as well as child mortality was very high.  Women were constantly pregnant.  Our forefathers referred to their fecund wives as "breeding and teeming."  One of the men ( can't recall which one) lost one wife in childbirth and a young child a few years later.  Medical care was primitive.  It wasn't until about 1910 with the passage of the Flexner act that the study of medicine really came into its own and strict laws determined education and the practice of medicine. 

Women in that period had no legal rights.  Their status was not that different from that of slaves.  Under English common law which influenced our our legal system man and wife were one and that one was the husband.  They could not vote, own property, obtain custody of their children in the rare case of divorce.  In the 1850's Susan B. Anthony appeared before the New York State legislature in the hopes of changing the laws.  A divorced woman with children was compelled by law to turn over her children to her husband even if that husband was an alcoholic. The same was true for her wages.  He had the legal right to her money even if that meant that her children would starve.

One of the men's wives had fourteen children, but who knows how many pregnancies she had.  Women had no control over their reproductive rights.  In desperation many resorted to abortion.  It is not very well known that in l9th century Protestant America abortion was the major form of birth control, either with herbal abortificiants or the horror of surgical abortion with the use of pain killers.

Modern women sometimes forget the benefits that we enjoy due to the work of the Seneca Convention and our early "foremothers."