Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online

[JoanK]

The Book Club Online  is  the oldest  continuing book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin

"More books about Abraham Lincoln line the shelves of libraries than about any other American. Can there be anything new to say about our 16th president? Surprisingly, the answer is yes. - ..... Doris Kearns Goodwin has written an elegant, incisive study of Lincoln......." - New York Times The Team: William H. Seward Salmon P. Chase Edward Bates .........      Links: NPR Review Wilmot Proviso Dred Scott Decision Kansas-Nebraska Act Fugitive Slave Law

Discussion Leaders: Ella & PatH Thank you, Jean. It's funny --I've always been able to remember people's ideas a lot better than their names.

[Ella Gibbons]

Great posts, everyone!

Questioning Lincoln's leadership; the rights of the individual vs. the government.  It all started with the revolution didn't it?  Jefferson was a stout states' rights advocate, but Adams was a Federalist (I think I remember this correctly).  And the two didn't speak for years until they were old men.

Jean, correct me if I am wrong.

I love these kinds of conversation regarding our rights.  We all have a story!  We moved in 1961 to a little country village (you should see it now!) and bought lovely acreage with loads of trees.  Within 5 years the federal goverment notified us that they were confiscating a sliver of our land for a exit from a freeway.  What a fight we had!  Imminent doman! 

The government can and will and is probably right in doing so, even though it hurts.  I will not live long enough for them to close that highway when people stop driving cars, as I believe must happen in the future! 

--------------------

This young John Hay  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hay)  that lived in the White House and served as secretary to Lincoln had this to say about him:

"The Tycoon is in fine whack.  He is managing this war, the draft, foreign relations, and planning a reconstruction of the Union, all at once.  I never knew with what tyrannous authority he rules the Cabinet, till now....I am growing more and more firmly convinced that the good of the country absolutely demands that he should be kept where he is till this thing is over.  There is no man in the country, so wise, so gentle and so firm.  I believe the hand of God placed him where he is."  (pg.545)

What praise!  He must have idolized the man.

I wonder how many of the staff live in the White House today?

And what they think of Obama and his family.  How a president is scrutinized!  What kind of a person wants the job? 

But, golly, Obama has a lot on his mind also.  A war, the economy, the debt, the debt, the debt, the debt - all those debts that our countrymen and women owe - all those debts that our government owes.  The decades of excess have caught up with us all.

Sorry about going on.................................

[PatH]

Jean to the rescue.  I was really not coming up with any ideas about non-slavery causes of the war, but you made a very good case.  Convinced me.

[PatH]

We weren't supposed to have any questions this week, but I'd like to pose one anyway.  Reading this book didn't just tell me more about Lincoln, it changed the way I thought about him, because it showed me his character in a different light, and I see more of what he was really about.  (Details later)

Did any of you feel that way?  Did the book change how you perceived Lincoln?  And how convincing was Goodwin's take on his character?

[Ella Gibbons]

Pat, I'll have to give it some thought, although I would love to hear why you changed your views of Lincoln.  Perhaps reading how others viewed Lincoln, both as a man and as a leader, was at times new. 

Lincoln will never die in this country I don't think.  We all revere him and for many different reasons -  the man was complex. 

I've often wondered if there had been no Civil War during his presidency if he would be as famous, what do you think?

And I failed to thank JEAN for giving me all those reasons for thinking of the causes of the Civil War other than slavery.  States rights!  Yes, and that is an ongoing war isn't it? 

later, eg

[Jonathan]

" I believe the hand of God placed him where he is."  (pg.545) John Hay

John Hay was very close to Lincoln as one of his secretarys, and must have had many opportunities to read the 'Tycoon's' mind, and his methods. The fine things he says about Lincoln may reflect his loyalty to the boss, but things were often going so badly for the president, it's difficult to understand how Hay could have seen him as a man of destiny...God's chosen.

There were others in the North who felt that way. Harriet Beecher Stowe had this to say about Lincoln. In 1864.

'This great contest has visibly been held in the hands of Almighty God, and is a fulfilment of the solemn prophecies with which the Bible is sown thick as stars, that he would spare the soul of the needy, and judge the cause of the poor. It was he who chose the instrument for this work, and he chose him with a visible reference to the rights and interests of the great majority of mankind, for which he stands.'

There's more about God searching in the backwoods, for a simple man of the people, who would serve as his instrument. Lincoln, as we have learned, set out wanting to earn the respect of his fellow man. There's nobility in that. Only years later in the depths of the crises did he wonder if God was taking a hand in determining  the direction the country would take.

In the meantime however, it's interesting to hear what Lincoln thought about Harriet Beecher Stowe. It seems the president was often withdrawing books from the library. He had borrowing privileges at the Library of Congress. We remember that he borrowed the Library's copy of Gen Halleck's military manual after which Lincoln had a hand in planning the 'capture' of  Norfolk, with the help of Stanton and Chase.

Then, in 1862, Lincoln borrows Stowe's: A Key to Uncle Tom's Cabin; Presenting the Original  Facts and Documents upon which the Story is Founded. Lincoln was so  impressed he had Stowe drop in at the White House and greeted her with:

'Is this the little woman who made this great war?'

Sure, states' rights played a part in testing the  political heritage of the first revolution, and Lincoln was very much a part of that, but eventually it came to the crunch and then it came down to reality in which 'man proposes and God disposes.' The slaves had God on their side...etc, etc.

[mabel1015j]

I don't think the book "changed" my thinking about AL in gen'l, but it  gave my tho'ts more depth. I had read a bio of Mary L many years ago and i read Stone's novel about them. As I said before i had a lot of history about the battles, in high school history classes and growing up 30 mins away from Gettysburg. None of that gave me any pshychological impressions about  AL, so i think this book gave me that depth to flesh out who he was. My early impressions of who he was were not negated, but added too.................

Ella and Pat, you have done a wonderful job of guiding us thru this discussion, thanks for you time and expertise on this.......................
I mentioined before that i am reading a novel of Tho Flemings', The WAges of Fame, that i think you all might enjoy. It is a prelude to TofR. It focuses on the time of Andrew Jackson and has all the characters from that period, including Peggy Eaton and that whole scandal and politically divisive episode. It's a little melodramatic in places, but Fleming is a renown historian and, as i mentioned, it's not much different from reading DKG except the story is powered by some fictional characters........................jean

[Ella Gibbons]

HELLO JONATHAN!  You are bringing God into this discussion quoting Stowe declaring that the war was in the hands of God! And God chose Lincoln as his instrument!  And HE disposed of the Confederates!  MERCY ON US! 

Stowe was rather religious, having been raised in the home of her father, a minister, and having married a minister.  I didn't know that until I looked her up on Google.

Goodwin tells us that Lincoln "fused spiritual faith with politics" in his second inaugural address when he said:  "Fondly do we hope-fervently do we pray-that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away.  Yet, if God wills that it continue, ...........so still it must be said that 'the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.'"

I much prefer Lincoln’s stories and especially his metaphors:  “A man watches his pear tree day after day, impatient for the ripening of the fruit. Let him attempt to force the process, and he may spoil both fruit and tree.  But let him patiently wait and the ripe pear at length falls into his lap.”

He was very good at this, wasn't he? 

Are you leaving us, JEAN?   Oh, don't go yet.  Before we disperse altogether, I do feel we ought to comment on a few more incidents that Goodwin writes about.  The Fall of Atlanta, Sherman's March to the Sea, Hampton Roads Conference, Lincoln's Dream and his Final Words.  All so fascinating, all so terrible in many ways.

[JoanK]

If there had been no civil war, would Lincoln have been a great president? Someone said that in order to be a great president, you need a great challenge. I guess that's true. Although if he had somehow managed to keep the union together, that would have been a great challange, too.

[PatH]

The Gettysburg Address critiqued:

Many years ago, when computerized programs critiquing writing started to become popular, my husband Bob typed the Gettysburg Address into one.  Here's what it said (there are 2 or 3 minor errors because he was typing it in from memory):

Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.  (Split into two sentences?  Long sentence: 29 words.)  Now we are engaged in a great (is this justified? great) civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure.  (Split into two sentences)  We are met on a great (is this justified? great) battlefield of that war.  We have come here to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting place for those who gave their lives that that (repeated word) nation might live.  It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.  But (sentence begins with but) in a larger sense we cannot dedicate—we cannot consecrate—we cannot hallow this ground.  (Is sentence too negative?)  The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract.  (Is sentence too negative?)  The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget (negative: never forget) what they have done here.  It is for us, the living, rather to be here dedicated to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced.  It is rather (weak sentence start) for us to be here dedicated to the great (is this justified? great) task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave their last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth in freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, and for the people shall not perish from the earth. 
(Split into two sentences.  Is sentence too negative?  Long sentence: 72 words.  Negative not perish.)

Overall critique:

Readability index: 10.17  readers need a 10th grade level of education  (a scale in which 4th-6th is simple, 6th-10th is good, and 10th-14th is complex)

Strength index: 0.00 (on a scale where 0 is weak and 1 is strong).  The writing can be made more direct by using:  shorter sentences, fewer weak phrases, more positive wording.

Descriptive index: 1.10 where 0 = terse and 1.1 = wordy.  The writing style is overly descriptive.  Many adjectives are being used.

Jargon index 0.00

No sentence structure recommendations.

Words to review
Negative words (N), jargon (J), words your reader may not understand (?)
Cannot (N), consecrated (?), detract(?), endure (J), fought (N), hallow (?), not (N), poor (N), vain (N), consecrate (?), dead (N), devotion (J), forget (N), fourscore (?), never (N), perish (N), struggled (N), war (N).

OK, it's a primitive program and you can see what it's thinking, but really!  Strength index 0.0 where 0 is weak and 10 is strong.  After all these years and countless exposure to the speech, I still can't read it aloud without choking up.  In fact I choked up just now when I was mumbling it to myself checking Bob's version against the version in Goodwin.

If any of you has access to a modern program of this sort, I'd love to know what it makes of the speech.

[mabel1015j]

No, Ella, i'm not leaving, i just know i'm going to have a busy end of week and wanted to be sure that i  complimented and thanked you and Pat for leading us so well.

e.g. Pat's giving us this wonderful critique of the G-burg Address. I loved that. I remember trying a grammar checker when they first came out. I was working for Dept of Army who was also training people in "simplistic" writing. I quickly turned off the grammar checker because it did things like saying there was a duplication of words ("that that") which was perfectly appropriate. The DofA program didn't want more than 15 words in a sentence and 10 sentences to a paragraph and other such stupid rules. Of course, it was necessary to address the issue because many people did need reminding that they were not filibustering in every memo they wrote, or showing off how smart they were w/ 4 and 5 syllable words.

Having a writing program analyze and criticize the GA is just too funny. It's such a masterful piece of communication. Thanks Pat....................jean

[JoanK]

The book did change my view of Lincoln. Perhaps also of the job of president. I knew abstractly how many things presidents had to handle at once, what a constant political balancing act they had to do, and how hard they worked, but this book really gives the sense of it in a way other books I've read don't.

I always thought of Lincoln as tortured, because his late portraits look that way. Perhaps this picture is not wrong, but I was surprised when over and over contemporaries emphasized how calm he was, and how able to find moments of relaxation and simple humor.

His sense of humor is very much that of the times, reminding me of Mark Twain and other writers of the time. We don't think of things like sense of humor varying with time and culture, but they do.

[Jonathan]

Pat, no one has critiqued the Gettysburg address half as well as you, by describing the effect of its few words on you as you repeat them to yourself. It's magnificent how much Lincoln managed to say in his two minute speech. Goodwin pays him a fine tribute, also in a few words:

'Lincoln had translated the story of his country and the meaning of the war into words and ideas accessible to every American...had forged for his country an ideal of its past, present and future that would be recited and memorized by students forever.' p587

Interesting, too, is the tribute paid to Lincoln by the main speaker at the battlefield dedication ceremony, whom Goodwin quotes, Edward Everett, the Harvard professor and renowned orator:

' "I should be glad," he wrote Lincoln the following day, "if I could flatter myself that I came as near to the central idea of the occasion, in two hours, as you did in two minutes." ' p586

Wouldn't it be safe to say that before many years had passed, many of Lincoln's 'people' would feel that his address made the occasion? His speeches made him famous. Much of his reputation rests on what he said. For me, Goodwin has brought out his brilliant political traits. She has made a Lincoln fan out of me.

[Ella Gibbons]

PAT, I thought it was a horrible thing to subject Lincoln's famous words to a critique by a computer program.  Who would possibly care if the sentences are too long or too weak.

"I still can't read it aloud without choking up"  NEITHER CAN I!  Those words - " we cannot dedicate—we cannot consecrate—we cannot hallow this ground.  The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract" describe forever the emotions of any people who have lived through a war and lost loved ones. 

Hello JOAN!  I think everyone is surprised that in time of trouble, awful terrible struggles within the nation, that Lincoln could maintain calm at times and humor.  How did he sleep at night, for instance, knowing that decisions concerning the lives of thousands lay on his shoulders.  I don't know.

JONATHAN, many other men changed their minds about Lincoln and became fans.  See page 595 where Goodwin quotes James Russell Lowe, Harvard professor, and Charles Francis Adams, minister to Great Britain and others.

Lincoln moved through his campaign for re-election to the presidency with little opposition, no one thought of any other candidate in time of war. 

"A visitor to the White House at this time told Lincoln that 'nothing could defeat him but Grant's caputure of Richmond, to be followed by the general's nomination at Chicago' and Lincoln replied "I feel very much like the man who said he didn't want to die particularly, but if he had got to die, that was precisely the disease he would like to die of."

[Ella Gibbons]

What I kept looking for in the book were examples of what we call today the Secret Service, or security for the President. 

Has anyone read of security for him?  I remember reading about his trip to Richmond right after the city fell and thinking where is security for him?  He rode on a boat as I remember and didn't he have Mary with him? 

Anyway throughout the book little attention is given to security for any of the people in office in Washington, in my opinion.

[mabel1015j]

Ella - you are right about Jefferson and Adams. Jefferson was very much against  the federal gov't having much power, or doing much spending, or being very large. Of course, when he got to be president and had the opportunity he purchased the Louisiana Territory, w/out getting Congressional approval and probaly an  unconstitutional move, and he established West Point as an institution to educate military officers. Two of the largest expenditures that a president had ever done outside of war expenses, even more than Adams had ever done.

I believe the Secret Service was started near the end of the 19th century, maybe after McKinley was assassinated. Lincoln was often accompanied by military members, especially during the war, but there was no organized protection. Altho a friend, Pinkerton, often provided some body guards for him - yes, the same Pinkerton that we think of as armored truck services today. I'll check on the SS and see what i can find out.....................jean

[mabel1015j]

http://www.secretservice.gov/history.shtml

As you note, the SS was started in 1865, but as an investigation body to deter counterfeiters. They are administered by the Treasury Dept for that reason. Cleveland was the first president to get "partial" protection and Congress requested full-time protection for TR after the McKInley assassination. ...............jean

[JoanK]

On that night in Fords theater, Lincoln's valet was seated outside the door to the balcony. John Wilkes Booth talked to him, and showed him a card or paper, and the valet nodded him through. It's not known exactly what transpired between them. (James L. Swanson "Manhunt").

[Ella Gibbons]

Thanks, JEAN, for that information.   Pinkerton is now a armored bank service?  I never pay any attention to those armored trucks, but the name Pinkerton rings all kinds of bells in my memory bank.  I can't right now bring up why, but give me time, hahahaaa 

The bells are ringing, for.....................

I am reading a little book I bought about the Stanford/Thaw murder at the turn of the century and McKinley's assassination is mentioned.  A fellow in the crowd had a towel wrapped around his hand as if he had a wound, but when he went to shake the President's hand, he shot the gun.  Actually, McKinely could have been saved today, he died of gangrene; the doctors who removed the bullet wore no surgical gloves or masks and there were no sanitary measures taken.

None of it would have happened if security had been tightened or, at least, one hopes it doesn't happen today.  I watch Obama shaking hands with the crowd in other countries and the security fellows have their eyes wide open scanning the crowds.  Even with that, it seems he is taking chances but I think a president needs approval from the ordinary folks, don't you?

HI JOAN.   Now that information is contradictory to what I remember reading somewhere.  The valet, who was supposed to be sitting outside the door of the president's box,  had gone outside or somewhere in the building momentarily and Booth had waited his chance. 

But your story is that he was there!  Hmmmmmm!

Who would know?

What do you make of Lincoln's dream of death on page 728?

[winsummm]

I read the sample in my new Kindle today. It is about three chapters long and is free. I kept waiting for Lincoln to come alive or at least for someone to be more than a simple narrative statement of fact.  I can see why Obama models himself after L> and possibly even why he chose  Illinois to begin his political career. On the whole I don't care for the writing, so will pass. 

 As for the rivals the Salon Chase character made me think of the Chase financial group that I just read about in HOUSE OF CARDS and which took over my bank recently.  I wonder if it is the same family.

I'm looking forward to three cups of tea next month. I've read it and own it but will be happy to revisit it, since I loved it.  see you there.

claire

[Ella Gibbons]

WINSUMMM!  Sorry you didn't like the book, was it the first three chapters or a summation or what did you get free with the Kindle?  My daughter is thinking of buying a Kindle and I am anxious to try it; at this point I can't believe that anything would be as satisfying as a book but I am willing to give it a try!

Here is a clickable to the history of the Chase Bank - Chase Bank

Aaron Burr's bank!  We discussed a biography of Burr sometime ago, interesting!

SHERMAN'S MARCH TO THE SEA!  I've always thought it was so cruel, but necessary to defeat the South.  On pg. 684-85 Goodwin describes it briefly and ends it this way.

"Though the military gains justified the march in the minds of Union soldiers, the memory of its terrible impact on civilian lives haunts the South to this day.

Anyone here from the South?  Any reverberations that you know of?

What has been your reaction to Sherman's March which WAS portrayed so vividly in the movie GONE WITH THE WIND.

[PatH]

Happy Easter, everyone, I'll be on to talk later.

[Ella Gibbons]

HAPPY EASTER EVERYONE! 

I ate too much, but that's okay.  Spring is here and I'll be out walking more and hopefully losing weight.

And we are about ready to close the book, aren't we?

Any comments before we do?

I have so enjoyed the discussion!  I hope all of you have enjoyed it also and I hope we meet again in another nonfiction discussion!

[Jonathan]

I enjoyed it immensely, and wish to thank everyone who took part in the discussion for adding to my appreciation of the book. What a vast subject. I doubt if the book will ever close on Lincoln and his times. Goodwin has got me hooked. I only close her book to pick up another on the subject. There's so much new stuff coming out all the time. Lincoln had, and still has, his detractors, but it seems to me the more closely he's examined the better he looks. What a great love for his country. What  a great devotion to the republic established to perpetuate a democratic form of government, and what success in persuading his countrymen to preserve it over four gruelling years. What an astounding posthumous career for this backwoodsman, who owed nothing to anyone, and yet looked to everyone for support politically, and got it. So much thought was given to every move. It seemed such a delightful candour to admit that Seward's reflection on the timing of the Emancipation Proclamation was something he had not thought about. Wait for a military success. Then proclaim. I also got the impression that he owed Seward on the meaning for the rest of the world of maintaining the democratic republic. Seward's travels and experience must have made him aware of that.

A good read. A good discussion. A good experience. But I did miss the the Southern point of view. And wasn't there a lot to read between the lines.

[PatH]

This book elucidated Lincoln’s thought processes in a way that surprised me.  I had not realized what a lawyerly way of thinking he had, but reading what Goodwin says, I recognize a way of thinking familiar to me from my childhood.

Lincoln started out with some basic principles, mainly the Constitution, plus a system of ethics (mostly Christian) and honesty, and everything he thought or did was a logical extension of these.  He worked things over carefully, but once he had come to his conclusion about what was right, he was firm in sticking to it.  And for everything he wanted to do, he had a legal basis, did it by the rules, even if he had to be ingenious.  When the laws bound him (as in the case of slavery in the original States) he accepted the constraint, but looked for a legal way to work around the problem.  On top of all this, he was scrupulously honest, meant what he said, and didn’t go back on his commitments.

The Cooper Union speech is a good example.  I had heard that it was an example of Lincoln deliberately showing the politicians  "look, this is a line I can take that will appease all the fringes of the party and make me electable."  When you read the speech, you see that it's not, he’s just saying the same things he was saying all along, and it’s a little masterpiece of legalistic arguments for his points (and also a masterpiece of really clever assumptions).

Why is this part of my upbringing?  My father was a lawyer, and that was exactly how he thought: adherence to law, firmness of principles, sticking with what he thought was right, extreme ingenuity in finding rules to fit what you wanted to do, and totally inflexible personal integrity.  His contribution to humanity was rewriting the patent law, not saving the country, but you do what you can.

[Ella Gibbons]

JONATHAN, thank you for your post.  I, too, would like to hear, or read, the Southern view; perhaps in another discussion.  Do you have a book in mind?  Every once inawhile the Confederate flag appears somewhere in the South or a racial incident happens to bring that conflict, that terrible war, to our attention.  Reconstruction!  I'm sure there is a book somewhere on the subject.

PAT, what a good and great tribute to your father!  I'm sure he is pleased with you and is smiling at your words.  There was so much more in the book and in Lincoln's life that we did not cover; we did not have the time in one discussion to fully explore all the facets of the period in which Lincoln lived and died.  Truly a good politician, a president for the ages. 

Book TV had a number of authors and speakers last weekend about Lincoln.  New material coming out and one fellow has written a book about Lincoln - the man in the monuments - a study with images of all the monuments to Lincoln and their history.  One was fascinating.  There was a monument somewhere in Indiana and during WWII the people decided to send it to Great Britain as a gesture of friendship.  Well, the government got involved and what a hullabaloo that became.

And so it goes.......................

THANKS, AGAIN, EVERYONE!  I think we did Doris Kearns Goodwin proud.

[PatH]

You're right, Ella, there's so much more we could have said.  But we said a lot!

Thank you, the faithful few who stuck it out--few but good!  There were so many detailed and thoughtful posts, so many good ideas being tossed around that it really added up.  I'm glad we had this discussion; it was a lot of work, but really worth it.

[JoanK]

I too enjoyed the discussion greatly. You all gave me so much to think about with your wonderful comments, and I feel that my sense and appreciation not only for Lincoln, but for that period in our history and culture has deepened.

As a sociologist, I was fascinated by what I can only call the "flavor" of the times: the differences in the way people viewed America, the way they conducted themselves, even the sense of humor made me realize how many changes in our attitudes occur over time without our being aware of it.

Examples: can you imagine fist fights, even gunshots between Congressmen today, at the same time that they felt that it wasn't honorable to vote for themselves? Can you imagine thinging of the US as a new experiment in freedom which might not survive? Can you imagine the clever insults and slapstick humor that politicians engaged in? Unfortunately, it's also hard to imagine the kind of honesty and adherance to principal in a politician that we see in Lincoln.

[mabel1015j]

In watching Obama today i wondered if Lincoln was a comfortable being president and w/ his decisions as Pres Obama "seems" to be? The only other president i can think of that i have "known" who seemed so comfortable was Gerald Ford. L and O both had that tall, lanky, look. Men of that stature often seem to be "strolling" along when they walk giving them an air of confidence. I think that's why Obama has such high approval numbers in these hard times. He exudes confidence and therefore gives us confidence that things will be all right. It's just amazing how much they seem to be alike and that we read this book at this time.

Again i thank Ella and Pat for leading us and for the rest of you for providing such an interesting conversation.............jean

[jane]

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