Talking Heads ~ Cursive Writing

[PatH]

Talking Heads

"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting..."
Herbert Bayard Swope, creator of the Op-Ed page.

A two week  forum for opinions on anything in print: magazines, newspaper articles, online: bring your ideas and let's discuss.

First up: Is Cursive Writing Dead?

 Recently in the Christian  Science Monitor, The Boston Globe, the Washington Post and Newsweek a debate has arisen concerning the teaching of Cursive Writing.

Here is the original article in the Christian  Science Monitor:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1114/p13s01-legn.html?s=hns

 Do we need to teach or use cursive writing any more? Is penmanship dead? What's the Palmer Method?


What's YOUR opinion?  Read the short article and then weigh in!

How's YOUR handwriting?

Discussion Leader: Ginny

[PatH]

I didn't bother to take the test because I know I write much faster than I print.  It's not beautiful, but if I'm not going too fast, it's quite legible.

I like handwriting, but I'm more upset at the loss of arithmetic skills.  If your handwriting's no good, you can do the same thing by printing, but if you can't do simple arithmetic in your head, how are you going to know if you're shortchanged, etc?  You can't always pull out a calculator.

[mabel1015j]

My dgt was in elementary school in the late 70's in the era of "new math." She never learned multiplication tables, they did multiplication in something called "sets" which sounded way more complicated than just memorizing what 8x8 was. My son, who is 4 yrs younger had an entirely different education - altho in the same schools and sometimes from the same teachers. I think our kids have been "lab rats" in experimentations about how to educate our children. Our dgt had no geography, our son is a whiz in georgraphy and as a history teacher, i have no clue how you teach history w/out teaching geography, so i made my freshmen college students in Amer Hist learn the states on the map. To some it was old hat, to others it was brand new. Sad! ............but there is so much more for teachers to teach these days and the standards are way above what we learned in each grade.............my grandson, in first grade, knows words i know i couldn't read until 3rd or 4th grade and knows concepts i know i didn't know until jr or sr high school, or later...........................I like the Obama admin throwing out the idea of longer school yrs. For some high schools the days have actually gotten shorter than when i was in school. Our schl day was over about 3 o'clock, but i recently spoke to teachers in a high schl where the day ended at 1:20! They are a large geograhic district and have to bus nearly everybody, so the high school students have to get out and bussed home that early so the grade school children can get home at a reasonable time.................again, bigger is not always better.....................jean

[straudetwo]

Exactly, Frybabe,  note-taking in college was the culprit!  One had to be fast to get the gist!   Some words would be lost, some only I could decipher . With personal correspondence I took greater care, of course.
My "freedom" began with the purchase of an Olivetti typewriter, a portable one.  I produced my thesis on it half a century ago.  It was used and I can't remember how I came by it.  In those days one had to barter...

Ginny, it would be a shame to drop cursive from the curriculum.  My grandchildren were eager writers from the start, Hannah, three years younger than her brother, was always a keen imitator and competitor.  Both have what is called a beautiful hand.  Both are exceptional students.  Until now, I'm afraid,  I have taken all that for granted. Mea culpa.  BTW,  Hannah reads voraciously,  but  my grandson (12 and in 7th grade)  is a reluctant reader. Typical? He takes Latin though, and I'm grateful for that.  I would so like to know where he and the class is,  but it isn't in my nature to pry.

Your thoughtful post the other day very much resonated with me,  you are definitely not alone.  I wonder whether we could/should  define exactly what attributes make someone 'smarter' than another.
Love this discussion.

[ginny]

Evelyn, I am so sorry,  apparently in the eons it takes me to type posts, you posted and I missed your post, sorry!

Thank you for explaining the back hand thing. Loved this one: They also were absolutely mystified that all us old fogey adults could multiply in our heads.

Isn't that something!!! Love it. Maybe the cure to modern education is for us old fogeys to tutor, I know a lot of people have done it and are doing it.

Sandy, wow, 22 years apart! And wow you're certainly qualified to speak on curriculum, were you there when they replaced the new math (Babi, it's gone!)  and what now is it replaced with?

I'm with Frybabe and Steph, the faster I try to write (which is all the time) cursive or have had to write it in past situations, the more illegible it becomes.

Evelyn mentioned an 87 year old aunt with a beautiful penmanship, my own mother into her 90s took great care with her "hand," and it was really pretty and distinctive.  Now we're all in a hurry, me included. I still have notes on the fly leaf of some of my textbooks,  when I ran out of paper: totally illegible. Why write if you can't read it later on?

I remember the "new English." It came out in the early 60's. Had a strange name. Went by speech patterns instead of grammar, out with the diagramming in with the speech patterns of the street...I KNOW! TRANSFORMATIONAL GRAMMAR!

Everybody who speaks those words should do penance. You can imagine how long THAT lasted, what however has taken its place?

Gone are the days you can triumphantly stand up at a blackboard and say "The Dative is the case of the Indirect Object," and see lights come on in the eyes of the class. More like huh?

Does it matter? er...YEAH!

Pat and Bellmere, I am so interested in these ink things you learned to write with. My first desks in school had places for inkwells but I missed it! Just as well, huh? hahahaa

Traude, do ask your grandson where he is, inquiring minds would like to know! Latin will do him a world of good, so glad he's taking it. At least ask what book they are using?

What an interesting question you pose, what makes one person smarter than another.  Since we're discussing education here,what do you all think?

Are there different kinds of "smarts?"

Mabel, what an interesting post, and you're right, so many changes. Are you sure you did not know those words?

The McGuffy (we're all too young to have had it) (or are we?) First Readers were a long shot from Dick and Jane. They have redone them for our modern eyes, did you know that? Not half what they were. To see an original with the original vocab you have to get one OF the originals, otherwise you're reading a hybrid.

To me, the premise of "Are You Smarter Than a  Fifth  Grader" is insulting. It takes specific curricula taught, probably some kind of national standard, and then poses the questions on THAT specific material. The upshot is the adults who have not studied that particular material are made to feel foolish while  the various schools are made to feel proud (leaving the obviously bright children entirely out of this, it's really not about them). What do you call something like this? Specious, a specious argument, in spades.

SMARTER is not knowing the Lenape Indian tribes, which we were taught in the 5th grades. Other than Mable, I expect nobody here has ever studied them, so does the accumulation of arcane facts make one smart?

Or what does? Good question, Traude!

[Steph]

I think that the New Math was good for above average students, who loved the theory. I know my older son adored it and I agreed with him. We both love math. My husband and my younger son hate math and the New Math never made sense to them.
I was telling MDH about this discussion. His writing is like a demented chicken.. But he was outraged that anyone would stop teaching cursive. He regards it as an art form and talks about how lovely it is when done well. After some question, I realized that he is talking of the Palmer method, which I do remember from my long ago elementary school days.

[Babi]

Actually, I was pretty good at taking notes. Especially if you had a well-organized lecturer.  A good one had specific topics that they covered, with specific 'main points' in each one.  With one teacher I could actually take notes in outline...ie., 1. A,B,C..2, A.B.C.,  etc.  It's impossible to 'note' every word, but if you get the major ideas down, you have what you need to review later.

[pedln]

OK folks, does anybody here TEXT?  I think an interesting experiment would be to compare cursive (or printing) with a grandchild texting a message on his cellphone.  My son thinks I should learn to TEXT because of my poor hearing, and I ask him, "Just who do you think I will TEXT with?  None of my friends TEXT."  One of my daughters tried to teach me, but when I got my cell bill I noticed they charged .20 for each message -- sent or received.  Forget that.

My children did well in math, and I lay it all on my mother, an elementary teacher, who taught them place value using pennies, dimes, and other small change.  "How many 'ones' do you see? How many 'tens'?  If they got it right, they got the money.  Good incentive.  Music was a different matter.  My mother insisted there was no such thing as a monotone -- and then she came up against two of mine.  I can still hear her trying to get them to sing broken chords --Mom- What do you like? (with melody) Kid --I like ice cream. (all on one note.)   

[Gumtree]

Just coming into this discussion - interesting to say the least....

 I learned to write cursive - it was called Copperplate - we used pen and ink - a metal nib in a wooden holder - and yes, Ginny we used the inkwells set into the desks. (Horrible job  being the Ink Monitor and having to mix the ink and fill the wells every day - and woe betide me if I spilled a drop!).
 Copperplate is a rather nice hand - fine upstrokes and heavier downstrokes. My parents both learned an earlier version of it which was more decorative and even in her 90s my mother still retained one of the clearest and most legible hands I've seen. (She was often asked to write invitations for weddings etc). I still write OK - well it's legible and easy to read - and can write at a good speed but I am not very fast or good with printing. I remember being so pleased when we began to learn the  Copperplate because 'printing' was for the babies.

Once cursive writing of all kinds is phased out of the curriculum I daresay it will become a 'craft' and people will flock to evening classes to discover how it's done...much easier to learn as a child. Copperplate is already part of the Calligraphers' art along with Uncial, Italic, Secretary's Hand and several other handwriting styles. Secretary's Hand is fairly difficult to decipher and makes tracking old records for genealogy difficult at times but it's nothing to the German one Traude mentioned which I've had  nightmares trying to read. 

If the powers that be discard cursive handwriting and then noone knows how to read it - they then discard spelling  and maths - (Spellcheck and calculator can take care of those) we might  find ourselves back in the dark ages when the population was largely illiterate. How many (or few) generations has it been since elementary education became compulsory.

[mabel1015j]

Except for the topics that weren't being taught when i was in school, when i watch "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader" I am constantly saying to myself - "I know i knew that at one point in my life, but i've had no reason to think about it for 5 decades!"

When i first met my husband in college, he was a biology major, and told me in 1962 that there were many kinds of "smart." Because of thinking about that, i constantly tell my students to never think of someone else as "stupid," or whatever word they use these days for someone who does not have the same knowledge that they do. We've all had such different experiences that have brought us into contact w/ some knowledge and not other knowledge and we cannot make a judgement about what, or why, others don't know what we know. Also, we all have different brains that provide us w/ different skills. So, some of us can sing (Pedin's mother) and others can't (Pedin's children)  and some of us can see a scene and replicate it in a beautiful picture and others of us can't begin to draw a tree. As i said somewhere on this site before, my brother and my son can, and will, do anything w/ their hands, are great problem solvers of "things," while i love working w/ concepts rather than things. I could go on and on but you all know what i'm talking about.

I had inkwells in my desks and we used the metal nib/wooden holder pen also. That was kind of fun for me.

Yes, Ginny, i have studied the Lenape Indians, but not until i got to NJ in the 1970's. One of the interesting aspects of the Deleware Nations was that when a couple got married, the husband moved into the longhouse of the wife's family  and if he didn't "behave" she could simply put his belongings outside the door and they were finished! In some tribes, the women were the "owners" of the "house."

They were also matrilineal tribes. The line of descent was thru the woman's line and altho the chiefs were men, they were the sons of the most important woman in the tribe, selected by the recommendation of the women! And the Europeans tho't they were savages!?! At the time, women in Europe had no legal rights at all once they were married...................which society was smarter/more advanced for women?....................jean

[Sandy]

Evelyn, I am so sorry,  apparently in the eons it takes me to type posts, you posted and I missed your post, sorry!

Thank you for explaining the back hand thing. Loved this one: They also were absolutely mystified that all us old fogey adults could multiply in our heads.

Isn't that something!!! Love it. Maybe the cure to modern education is for us old fogeys to tutor, I know a lot of people have done it and are doing it.

Sandy, wow, 22 years apart! And wow you're certainly qualified to speak on curriculum, were you there when they replaced the new math (Babi, it's gone!)  and what now is it replaced with?

I'm with Frybabe and Steph, the faster I try to write (which is all the time) cursive or have had to write it in past situations, the more illegible it becomes.

Evelyn mentioned an 87 year old aunt with a beautiful penmanship, my own mother into her 90s took great care with her "hand," and it was really pretty and distinctive.  Now we're all in a hurry, me included. I still have notes on the fly leaf of some of my textbooks,  when I ran out of paper: totally illegible. Why write if you can't read it later on?

I remember the "new English." It came out in the early 60's. Had a strange name. Went by speech patterns instead of grammar, out with the diagramming in with the speech patterns of the street...I KNOW! TRANSFORMATIONAL GRAMMAR!

Everybody who speaks those words should do penance. You can imagine how long THAT lasted, what however has taken its place?

Gone are the days you can triumphantly stand up at a blackboard and say "The Dative is the case of the Indirect Object," and see lights come on in the eyes of the class. More like huh?

Does it matter? er...YEAH!

Pat and Bellmere, I am so interested in these ink things you learned to write with. My first desks in school had places for inkwells but I missed it! Just as well, huh? hahahaa

Traude, do ask your grandson where he is, inquiring minds would like to know! Latin will do him a world of good, so glad he's taking it. At least ask what book they are using?

What an interesting question you pose, what makes one person smarter than another.  Since we're discussing education here,what do you all think?

Are there different kinds of "smarts?"

Mabel, what an interesting post, and you're right, so many changes. Are you sure you did not know those words?

The McGuffy (we're all too young to have had it) (or are we?) First Readers were a long shot from Dick and Jane. They have redone them for our modern eyes, did you know that? Not half what they were. To see an original with the original vocab you have to get one OF the originals, otherwise you're reading a hybrid.

To me, the premise of "Are You Smarter Than a  Fifth  Grader" is insulting. It takes specific curricula taught, probably some kind of national standard, and then poses the questions on THAT specific material. The upshot is the adults who have not studied that particular material are made to feel foolish while  the various schools are made to feel proud (leaving the obviously bright children entirely out of this, it's really not about them). What do you call something like this? Specious, a specious argument, in spades.

SMARTER is not knowing the Lenape Indian tribes, which we were taught in the 5th grades. Other than Mable, I expect nobody here has ever studied them, so does the accumulation of arcane facts make one smart?

Or what does? Good question, Traude!

[Sandy]

Evelyn, I am so sorry,  apparently in the eons it takes me to type posts, you posted and I missed your post, sorry!

Thank you for explaining the back hand thing. Loved this one: They also were absolutely mystified that all us old fogey adults could multiply in our heads.

Isn't that something!!! Love it. Maybe the cure to modern education is for us old fogeys to tutor, I know a lot of people have done it and are doing it.

Sandy, wow, 22 years apart! And wow you're certainly qualified to speak on curriculum, were you there when they replaced the new math (Babi, it's gone!)  and what now is it replaced with?

I'm with Frybabe and Steph, the faster I try to write (which is all the time) cursive or have had to write it in past situations, the more illegible it becomes.

Evelyn mentioned an 87 year old aunt with a beautiful penmanship, my own mother into her 90s took great care with her "hand," and it was really pretty and distinctive.  Now we're all in a hurry, me included. I still have notes on the fly leaf of some of my textbooks,  when I ran out of paper: totally illegible. Why write if you can't read it later on?

I remember the "new English." It came out in the early 60's. Had a strange name. Went by speech patterns instead of grammar, out with the diagramming in with the speech patterns of the street...I KNOW! TRANSFORMATIONAL GRAMMAR!

Everybody who speaks those words should do penance. You can imagine how long THAT lasted, what however has taken its place?

Gone are the days you can triumphantly stand up at a blackboard and say "The Dative is the case of the Indirect Object," and see lights come on in the eyes of the class. More like huh?

Does it matter? er...YEAH!

Pat and Bellmere, I am so interested in these ink things you learned to write with. My first desks in school had places for inkwells but I missed it! Just as well, huh? hahahaa

Traude, do ask your grandson where he is, inquiring minds would like to know! Latin will do him a world of good, so glad he's taking it. At least ask what book they are using?

What an interesting question you pose, what makes one person smarter than another.  Since we're discussing education here,what do you all think?

Are there different kinds of "smarts?"

Mabel, what an interesting post, and you're right, so many changes. Are you sure you did not know those words?

The McGuffy (we're all too young to have had it) (or are we?) First Readers were a long shot from Dick and Jane. They have redone them for our modern eyes, did you know that? Not half what they were. To see an original with the original vocab you have to get one OF the originals, otherwise you're reading a hybrid.

To me, the premise of "Are You Smarter Than a  Fifth  Grader" is insulting. It takes specific curricula taught, probably some kind of national standard, and then poses the questions on THAT specific material. The upshot is the adults who have not studied that particular material are made to feel foolish while  the various schools are made to feel proud (leaving the obviously bright children entirely out of this, it's really not about them). What do you call something like this? Specious, a specious argument, in spades.

SMARTER is not knowing the Lenape Indian tribes, which we were taught in the 5th grades. Other than Mable, I expect nobody here has ever studied them, so does the accumulation of arcane facts make one smart?

Or what does? Good question, Traude!

Evelyn, I am so sorry,  apparently in the eons it takes me to type posts, you posted and I missed your post, sorry!

Thank you for explaining the back hand thing. Loved this one: They also were absolutely mystified that all us old fogey adults could multiply in our heads.

Isn't that something!!! Love it. Maybe the cure to modern education is for us old fogeys to tutor, I know a lot of people have done it and are doing it.

Sandy, wow, 22 years apart! And wow you're certainly qualified to speak on curriculum, were you there when they replaced the new math (Babi, it's gone!)  and what now is it replaced with?

I'm with Frybabe and Steph, the faster I try to write (which is all the time) cursive or have had to write it in past situations, the more illegible it becomes.

Evelyn mentioned an 87 year old aunt with a beautiful penmanship, my own mother into her 90s took great care with her "hand," and it was really pretty and distinctive.  Now we're all in a hurry, me included. I still have notes on the fly leaf of some of my textbooks,  when I ran out of paper: totally illegible. Why write if you can't read it later on?

I remember the "new English." It came out in the early 60's. Had a strange name. Went by speech patterns instead of grammar, out with the diagramming in with the speech patterns of the street...I KNOW! TRANSFORMATIONAL GRAMMAR!

Everybody who speaks those words should do penance. You can imagine how long THAT lasted, what however has taken its place?

Gone are the days you can triumphantly stand up at a blackboard and say "The Dative is the case of the Indirect Object," and see lights come on in the eyes of the class. More like huh?

Does it matter? er...YEAH!

Pat and Bellmere, I am so interested in these ink things you learned to write with. My first desks in school had places for inkwells but I missed it! Just as well, huh? hahahaa

Traude, do ask your grandson where he is, inquiring minds would like to know! Latin will do him a world of good, so glad he's taking it. At least ask what book they are using?

What an interesting question you pose, what makes one person smarter than another.  Since we're discussing education here,what do you all think?

Are there different kinds of "smarts?"

Mabel, what an interesting post, and you're right, so many changes. Are you sure you did not know those words?

The McGuffy (we're all too young to have had it) (or are we?) First Readers were a long shot from Dick and Jane. They have redone them for our modern eyes, did you know that? Not half what they were. To see an original with the original vocab you have to get one OF the originals, otherwise you're reading a hybrid.

To me, the premise of "Are You Smarter Than a  Fifth  Grader" is insulting. It takes specific curricula taught, probably some kind of national standard, and then poses the questions on THAT specific material. The upshot is the adults who have not studied that particular material are made to feel foolish while  the various schools are made to feel proud (leaving the obviously bright children entirely out of this, it's really not about them). What do you call something like this? Specious, a specious argument, in spades.

SMARTER is not knowing the Lenape Indian tribes, which we were taught in the 5th grades. Other than Mable, I expect nobody here has ever studied them, so does the accumulation of arcane facts make one smart?

Or what does? Good question, Traude!

[Sandy]

 Sorry, I am messing up the quotes. I could not find space for reply to Ginny. Anyway yes, here we studied the Delaware and Lenni Lenape Indians. As far as I know they are still being taught in fourth grade. Much of what was taught about Thanksgiving was misinformation. There are great books out now  for children who tell it correctly. Turkeys probably were not a part of the menu for instance.

 A child psychiatrist told me once that there are seven types of intelligence -- the one we measure on IQ tests, people skills, artistic ability, athletic ability with its superb coordination, mechanical aptitude, and I forget the rest. Maybe math and vocabulary skills count in there somewhere other than part of IQ testing.

I regret that diagramming sentences went out of style. It was such a help on term papers and college writing assignments. As to new math it was being phased out gradually during the  late 1980's here I think.

In our state which I think has a good educational system in most places we spent near the top of the 50 states in per child spending. May even be first, I am no longer sure. I know we teach algebra in eighth grade instead of high school here and allow honors students to take college level courses and receive credit for them in college, often allowing graduation there in three years instead of four.

My sons got great educations for them here. The elder was an honors student who loved languages so much the school let him go without lunch period each day so he could take all the languages he wanted while prepping for a career in engineering. The younger was a learning disabled special needs child who lettered in three varsity sports for three years and was president of the student council. He also  represented the school for the tri county good sportsmanship award. So one way or another I pretty much saw it all.

And today guess which one is worried about job security? And which one works for the state with pension and benefits? Many metallurgical engineers work with steel companies in R and D for the US automakers. So life plays some odd tricks.

Sandy

[PatH]

Here are 2 sites for steel pen nibs:

http://hans.presto.tripod.com/nibs/spencerian.html

http://www.zanerian.com/NibCatpg2.JPG

The second is Esterbrook nibs.  Remember Esterbrook?  You would buy a fountain pen for (I think) $2, and you could get many different styles of screw-in points for it.  I used them for decades.  Apparently even these are now collector's items, and the plain nibs even more so.

[EvelynMC]

Pat: Oh, I forgot about the Esterbrook nibs.  I had those, and it was such fun to practice with them.... Memories, memories...  It takes me back to the dining room table and doing homework and  all those ink blobs.

I remember learning to write with fountain pens, and what a mess.  And then ball point pens came out, and messy, messy hands.

On a different tack... have you seen that they find that daily physical education in school makes a difference in the students grades. In Texas they tried it and found the students "think better".  Gee, they think they discovered something new. 

When I was in school, we had P.E. everyday day in both grammar school and high school.  I loved softball, volley ball was so so, but I found my home in the swimming pool and have been swimming ever since.

[Gumtree]

PatH Thanks for the links to the metal nibs...a great reminder though obviously we didn't have those particular brands in this part of the world.

I wrote with a fountain pen until about 1990 both at work and at home. I still do sometimes and always when I'm writing personal notes.

I  took classes in Calligraphy about five years ago - something I always wanted to do - I love the elaborate capitals and decorative styles...so I have amassed a small collection of nibs, holders and other paraphenalia but sadly I just didn't have the time to practice and practice one must! - Perhaps I'll find the time to practice this year? next year? ...H'mm seems unlikely.

[Babi]

'does the accumulation of arcane facts make one smart?' (from SANDY)

IMO, accumulation of facts is information/knowledge. 'Smart' is the ability to sort, compare, question, correlate and extrapolate from those facts. Some 'facts' did me very little good, as I wasn't interested in them or had no talent/gift in that area. Others were like good food, swallowed happily and digested well, promoting growth. 

[mabel1015j]

wonderful comment, Babi..................jean

[Steph]

Never used the pens. We had inkwells, but no ink.. Thank heaven, I had long pigtails and I am sure they would have ended up black and not blonde. Bad enough to get tugged at all the time.
It is interesting to think that sometime cursive may end up being a craft.. I know  love to see Calligraphy, but cannot do it..
Texting.. oh me,, our granddaughter decided her Grandpa ( who is her love) must learn to text. So she taught him, Nana declined to learn. Now that he learned, she sighed and said,, dont text me any more because it counts on my phone and Daddy takes the phone if I go over my limit.. Sigh.. Poor Grandpa..

[Babi]

    Ain't it the truth.   But teaching Grandpa did make her happy. Maybe one of these days they'll switch to the 'unlimited' family hours. 

[Steph]

I hope so.. Grandpa does send her pictures because they dont count on her program. This is her first year on the family plan and our son and wife are being strict with her. Before she had a pay as you go phone and was always running out of minutes.

[Babi]

The amount of time young people can spend on the phone has become legendary.  I can't fault her parents for keeping a lid on the situation. Nice to know pictures don't count for text time.  I've never had such a phone, so I know very little about them.  Now, of course, a personal phone would be pointless...I'm about 95% deaf!   

[pedln]

Babi, run, don't walk to CapTel -- you can use your computer to get captions as you speak on the telephone.  I won't go into details, you can get them at this link.  As I've mentioned before, I have a captioned telephone, courtesy of my state, and as time goes on I find it more and more helpful.  But with the Web CapTel I can sit with my cell phone and read the captions on the computer screen.   I have used my regular captioned phone with WEB captel because more of the conversation shows at one time -- just what the other person is saying, not what you're saying.  This is free.

WEB CapTel

I've only called out on WEB Captel, have not tried having people call me.

[Steph]

I love cell phones, because my hearing aids work well with them. Regular phones , no they dont work that well for me.
I just spent some time looking up Palmer Method on Handwriting. Alas my handwriting never ever looked like that, but I do remember sitting in elementary school and looping over and over to learn how to make certain letters.

[Babi]

PEDLN, I don't own a cell phone, but we do have an extension phone that one can walk about with.  Would that work just as well, do you know?  What a great help that would be!

[pedln]

Babi, I think and extension phne would work.  Check the link.  Also, they're very helpful in responding to emails, etc.

[Babi]

Thanks, PEDLN.  I'll do that now.

[mrssherlock]

As far as penmanship goes, I was so concentrated on how to form the letters that I had no brain left for what letters they were.  College ruined whatever style I had.  Babi's comment about some lecturers being well organized, mostly I got ones that wandered all over the place.  Lots of interesting stories but the mid-terms were always about the reading; wonder if I could have skipped class and just read?  Speaking of which can someone explain why at Oxford they say someone "reads" history?

I use the prepaid cell phone.  One in my purse and one stays in the car -  I don't have to scurry around looking for it when it rings.  Costs around $10/mo.  Since most of my calls are to family reminding them to pick up milk on the way home, seems silly to pay more.  Still use the landline for major gabbing.  Texting seems so slow.  I've never had a PDA, couldn't see myself using that tiny little tool to input data.  Give me a keyboard anytime.  And a mouse - I use a mouse with my laptop.  That little rectangle at the bottom, fugeddaboutit!

[mabel1015j]

Jackie - in reading the book about Bill Clinton "First in His Class," while he was at Oxford, it sounded like he "read" books and then dicussed them w/ a "don."  I had a great graduate class like that where i read about women in the MIddle Ages and then had lunch w/ the advisor and talked about the book and the woman subject of the book..........that was my FAVORITE grad class!!   ................jean

[Steph]

Yes, I believe in England that the tutor assigns  reading in what will be your specialty and then you read and see them on a scheduled interval.
I would have loved that in college. I hated lecture type classes.. Especially the chemistry ones that required a lot of note taking without know what the heck I needed.

[Babi]

a lot of note taking without know what the heck I needed.

  That made me smile, STEPH.  In our frequent moving about when I was growing up, I apparently missed a basic science course.  Then I found myself in a high school physics class, having no idea whatsoever what these people were talking about! 

[Steph]

Babi, I did not move at all after WWII, but went to a rural school. When I hit college, this straight
A student did not understand a single word of the chemistry lectures and almost set herself on fire in the lab.. Sigh.

[mrssherlock]

If it weren't for Chem 101 I might have become a physician.  Imagine my surprise when Ira Flatow, host of NPR's Science Friday, said he flunked it too!  With such company as you, Steph, and Ira, I don't feel so bad.

[ginny]

Oh I did too,  I actually flunked Organic Chemistry in high school, we had a visiting Professor from CA whose husband had been transferred to the area,  and she offered in high school Organic 101 and Inorganic 102, HIGH SCHOOL.; It was  magical, I had no idea what she was saying but I enjoyed her saying it.

I have loved our discussion here, which has been far ranging, starting with cursive penmanship going the way of the dodo and moving into Education in general, thank you all.

The idea of this discussion was to now move to another article for discussion, do any of you have one on any topic you'd like to see us discuss?

It has to be readable online. I just read a super one in Newsweek but it's on Education again,  let's change topics and see what you'd like to discuss in the news.

Super beginning, thank you! Let's keep it going!

[PatH]

Just for the record, Ginny, Organic Chemistry is usually the course that colleges use to flunk out half the pre-med and chemistry students.

[mrssherlock]

I didn't even get that far!  We had a brand new terxt bookk, it had no pictures. they changed books the next year and it had pix on every page!  I couldn't identify my unknown (qualitative analysis), got only as far as the chemical family. 

[pedln]

I passed chemistry, but don't ask if it were organic or inorganic.  I remember three things. 1) for the final exam you would draw a piece of paper from a basket and it would say either acids or bases or one other topic.  Then you would write everything you knew about that topic.  2) One day we had a sub and some boys threw sodium down the sink.  That was exciting!  3) One day we made a gas -- hyrdocloric?  not sure.  I couldn't see it, so decided to smell it. Not a smart thing to do.

Ginny, this Talking Heads has been a great addition to SeniorLearn.  Interesting and lots of fun.

[PatH]

I never got around to mentioning my friend who writes 3 page letters in beautiful calligraphy.  He doesn't write all that often, but I don't think it's the calligraphy that slows him down.

I agree, great topic.

[ginny]

hahaa, it's a wonder any of us survived high school lab. I'm trying to remember what I DO remember about HS science, the smell of the formaldehyde. I had the infamous.....something with a carapace, surely we weren't dissecting lobsters, but it had a carapace. Crab seems unlikely.

(Now SEE? We did learn something!) haahhaaa

Wow  on the Organic Chemistry, Pat? Who knew? I feel a little better.  In my case it took very little to push me over hahahaa, who KNEW there was so much math? (We can see right here a problem?) haahaha

But I did go on to be a Geology Lab assistant in college, so maybe my talent is not...oops, can't say that either. least said, soonest mended.

I am so glad you all have enjoyed this new addition. We'll be off on another topic next week.

[serenesheila]

WOW!  I just found this site, and have thoroughly enjoyed reading all of the posts.  They bring back so many memories.  I remember learning cursive, and using an inkwell.  When I got to high school, my mother insisted that I take a typing class. She told me that if I could type, I would always be able to get a job.  Although I was college prep, I was allowed in the class.  Knowing how to type has served me well.  Now, with computers, it comes in handy.

I remember too, my parents complaining about my being taught "sight reading".  They worked with me to learn to breakdown words.  My sight reading still cause me problems, now and then.  I am grateful that I can do both.  When new math came into fashion, I was lost.  Sure couldn't help my children with their homework.  Math never was my strong suit.

When I was a Senior in high school, I was able to take some classes, across the street at the junior college.  I took French for a year, and English.  In high school I had a semester of Latin, and a semester of German.  I stayed in Germany with my son, and his family, and to my surprise I was able to speak, and understand the language pretty well.  My two visits to Germany were 50+ years after my high school German.

I am looking forward to the next discussion.

Sheila