Political Processes - Can we talk?

[mogamom]

The pictures I saw were: Russian flags outside by Sanders' supporters;  Palestinian flag - inside in audience;
this claim is that the American flag was added on day 2 of the DNC convention:

http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/26/american-flags-missing-on-day-one-added-to-dnc-stage/


I think the issue was who the DNC is attracting and/or playing to. 

And it really doesn't matter to me what symbols are being used, except to see how it plays to big business and special interest groups - from both sides.

[BarbStAubrey]

Mogamom there are far more important things to be concerned about than if either party have so much control over the average folks who attend any political event - talk about Nazism - come on - folks have issues - they want those with more power than they have to pay attention to their issues and so they use flags to represent their issues - period - nothing nefarious.

Thank god we have not come to the place in this country where a political party has such complete control over folks that they cannot even show evidence of their concerns and needs - this is silly mogamom - with folks all over the world being summarily killed and web sites want to make an issue over flags? Please, mogamom you have more brains than that to fall for such a concern that is so removed from the horrors those flags are attempting to bring to our attention.

[Frybabe]

Gee, Barb, I am just about speechless.

Flags have always been a rallying point for all kinds of things from the soldiers who follow their flag bearers into battle to rallying points for sports teams. And yes, they become symbols of a country's political philosophy. While we are all allowed to express our opinions and such, these folks should be a little more careful about what they choose for a symbol of their discontent unless they truly understand and agree with that particular political philosophy. Many people here in the US consider those particular symbols an affront because to them they mean mean death and destruction, oppression and terrorism. In fact, we have several Southern states that are making or have made an effort to remove the Confederate flag from state lands because of the oppression it still represents to many of our citizens.

Mogamom asked a simple question. Jane provided an answer.

Personally, I think we should all be concerned about how the Media spins things by taking things out of context (verbally and photographically) to pursue this or that agenda. People are forming their opinions on bit and pieces, not the whole. But I guess, that was ever so. Incomplete or slanted reports have been known to reek havoc or cause the downfall many. We do the best we can with what we are given.

[BarbStAubrey]

Personally, I think we should all be concerned about how the Media spins things by taking things out of context (verbally and photographically) to pursue this or that agenda. People are forming their opinions on bit and pieces, not the whole. But I guess, that was ever so. Incomplete or slanted reports have been known to reek havoc or cause the downfall many. We do the best we can with what we are given.

Agree 100% however, my concern is this finding fault with flags held by those in the audience as if they were representative of the DNC or the RNC  I think is suggesting that both organizations control those in the audience- as it is the control over signs is bad enough but I still think it is silly to make an issue over folks who are feeling beleaguered and are expressing their pain by showing a flag as a member of the audience to a group they think can help them or at lest gain the attention of anyone who sees the flag.

Falling for the media's desire to reek havoc is not how I see the smart folks who post with SeniorLearn - yes, I saw it last night when reporters were watching two groups heading for each other as the marched toward the convention hall - the reporters were talking as if it were going to be volitive and instead the two groups befriended each other and marched together - and so yes, my opinion adding to this discussion - with all the horrors in the world today I think worrying about flags in an audience is far less sinister than is intended. 

[mogamom]

Flags are symbols.  The first night the DNC didn't display the flag.  The second night - at 10pm - Bernie protestors burned the Israeli flag.

The DNC, knowing the Bernie supporters were going to walk out of the convention, put an ad on Craigslist for 700 paid actors to fill the seats so it would look good on camera - unity.  They received $50, and were required to applaud and cheer.

I always said with Bill Clinton, who made the office of President a moral dunghill in my opinion (and we elected him twice), that he was all about 'smoke and mirrors'; I always said of Barak Obama, who removed any reasonable expectation that the office of President would require some kind of expertise in my opinion (and we elected him twice), that he was all about 'the shell game'.

Bernie Sanders is in a hard place right now - as is Ted Cruz.  I am merely observing the process.  Since it is difficult to discern 'fact' anymore, given the 'back scene' information we've been given about the media we have trusted to bring us news, I'm watching a broad swath of information gathering groups.  Somewhere there is truth.

Smart people are not just listening to candidate speeches, but watching what they are doing as well, yes?  Remember when Clinton was asked why he didn't follow through on his promise for a middle class tax cut he said that he had to say that to get elected and America needed him?  There are vital issues at stake.  How they do/have followed through on their stated beliefs is just as important as what they say.

[jane]

I hope we're all looking at a lot of different sites for our news and that we are looking into the places like Snopes.com to see what's false and what's unproven, etc.  The Craig's List thing mentioned above is an example.  Since anyone could list that, I wondered if it'd been shown to be true.  Alas...apparently not:

http://www.snopes.com/dnc-hiring-actors-via-craigslist-to-replace-delegates/

CLAIM: The Democratic National Convention's organizers published a Craigslist ad seeking actors to replace missing or ejected delegates.

UNPROVEN
WHAT'S TRUE: A Craigslist ad appeared purporting to seek "actors" for a "national convention."

WHAT'S FALSE: The ad was not traced back to the DNC.

WHAT'S UNDETERMINED: Who placed the ad; whether it was a joke or protest.

[mogamom]

Jane, did they also refute the two interviews conducted at the DNC with 'seat-fillers'?  These young people are much more media-savy than many, for sure.  Oh...how did you come to trust Snopes for verification?  Who are they?  Who filled the seats of the 700 Bernie fans that walked out; were they just people who couldn't get in?  or are they saying that there was no walk-out?

Is MSN to be believed?

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/day-3-at-the-democratic-convention/ar-BBuYtQZ?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=DELLDHP

[jane]

I did not see the interview, but who conducted it and how was it verified that the DNC or some other official placed the ad and hired these people? 

Yes, I do believe snopes.  I've not ever found them to be untruthful.

I don't know about MSN.  I don't have any experience with them.

I just shake my head at the things that come out of the candidates' mouths...be it about wanting Russia to hack into American citizen emails or whatever happens to float to the top of the brain.  What a time for us all.

[mogamom]

This is troubling.

http://www.aapsonline.org/index.php/site/article/hillarys_health_concerns_serious_say_most_doctors_polled_by_aaps/

[Frybabe]

Thanks for sharing Mogamom. Regardless of who you are voting for in the elections, with these two to choose from, I think everyone should take a good look at the prospective VP's. I don't think Trump is in tip top form either.

[marjifay]

Re the presidential debate, I thought the debate was a tie. Hilary's voice often grates on my nerves when she gives a speech.  I did not find her voice grating during the debate. I am a democrat, but not especially in favor of Hilary Clinton. I preferred Bernie Sanders.  I am very much hoping that Trump does not win the election, so will vote for Hilary to keep Trump from becoming president. Although Hilary was not my favorite Democratic candidate, I I believe she would be a good president.
 
Marj

[marjifay]

Mogamom, I did not find that troubling.  I find it boring that so many physicians, most of whom are at such a long distance from her and never having seen her or the medical reports from her personal phyhsician feel obligated to diagnose her health.   Who cares what they think?  Not me for sure. 

Marj

P.S.  I read reports of people who watched the debate and commented on Mr. Trumps' sniffling as though he had a cold and they said it distracted them from what he was saying.  I did not notice any such sniffling on his part, did anyone here?

[BarbStAubrey]

Did you see Frontline on PBS last night - very interesting how often Hillary during her life chose to fall on her petard so that things could move ahead - a usual woman's role so that it was a surprise considering how many women think of her as representing the new woman -

I have not made the switch to Hillary or Trump, marjifay after Bernie - not as happy with Jill as I was - not sure what to do but in this state it really does not matter - the state will be for Trump regardless what I do - it is just following my conscious and values which no one seems to match - I like what Jill stands for but I do not like some of her more recent actions -

Trump does not bother me as much as he does many - I see him using the style of the Kardashians and Paris Hilton so that he is all about entertainment even if it is appealing to those who watch wrestling. As to what he will do - I doubt if even he knows - if he is looking at the job as a business negotiator you have no idea what will happen till the parties involved are together and you see the emotions involved. He reminds me of a Feudal Lord who says give me your all, get in behind the castle gate that I will shut behind you, and in return I will protect you.

Where as Hillary reminds me of a monarch who practices Bentham's/Mills Utilitarianism where the few or one sacrifices for the many just as she did everytime there was a problem she sacrificed what mattered to her from backing not only off health care but staying out of the west wing and devoting all her time to the cookie baking, tree decorating mistress of the White House preparing Christmas, to supporting Bill when he was being impeached. And so if she can do it than others can do it for the best interest of the nation moving forward.

The same war of systems that Le Cid was all about - and so we are reliving that eleventh century story.

[marjifay]

I agree with you Frybabe that voters should pay attention to the VP candidates and their positions on the various issues.  I look forward to the VP candidates debate.  Reminds me of how we could have, god help us, had Sara Palin as a president had candidate McCain become president and died in office.

Marj

[maryz]

Marjifay, I noticed Trump's sniffing, starting about half-way through the debate, plus drinking a lot of water.

I recorded the Frontline program and watched it this afternoon.  Excellent reporting!  I consider myself to be a liberal, but I've been watching most of the campaign coverage on PBS.  Their reporting and balance has been exceptionally good.

[mogamom]

I watched the debate on ABC.  I noticed Trump's sniffing once...didn't think much of it.  I expected him to drink water (they usually do) and was surprised that Hillary didn't, especially as dehydration has frequently been cited as a cause for her falls.  At one point there was a close-up of Clinton's face when Trump was answering a question; she was swaying and appeared to be having trouble staying awake. 

Of course - with my medical background (limited to be sure)  - I wondered what medication they may have given her.  I also wondered if her pneumonia was aspiration pneumonia and if difficulty swallowing was a cause for her frequent coughing 'fits'; she was shown to be drinking water in her debates with Bernie, as well as her campaign/fund-raising speeches, so again I was surprised that she wasn't hydrating herself. 

Clinton seemed stiff walking after the debate.  I re-watched their greetings after the debate with the sound off.  Her nose was running and she wiped it with her left hand which she carefully kept the fingers raised while shaking hands.  Her husband held her hand firmly as she stepped back up on the platform, tucking her arm under his, then wrapped his arm across her back and around her arm holding her firmly.  Her head was down.  I thought at that moment that she looked very old and very tired.

[marjifay]

I haven't watched any campaign coverage on the public TV station, as I've found their news coverage pretty boring.  I like MSNBC and CNN better.    I do listen to PBS radio and like their book reports.  I was just reading that several Republican newspapers, including the Arizona paper had endorsed Clinton because they found Trump to be a deplorable candidate.

Marj

[marjifay]

Last evening our local news program broke in to broadcast the tape that has been released by the Washington Post of Trump's disgusting remarks about how, upon meeting certain celebrity women, he liked to grope their bodies.  It is beyond my understanding how anyone, after listening to those remarks of Trump could consider voting for him.  I feel sorry for his daughters and even his wife whom I think is probably just Trump's temporary trophy until he finds a younger one. 
I cannot remember a national election where both candidates were so very much disliked by so many people.  I will vote for Hilary only because it will possibly mean we will have a more liberal Supreme Court.

Marj
 

   

[BarbStAubrey]

No saints in this election - Trump -  Bill - Hillary stayed with Bill - big pot of stew... for broth there is always Jill.

[marjifay]

Who is Jill?

Marj

[BarbStAubrey]

Jill Stein the Green Party - running mate Ajamu Baraka - many Bernie Sanders supporters are voting for Jill - the corporate media is not showing her as either an alternative or are they showing her support just as they shut out showing the support for Bernie Sanders

http://www.jill2016.com/

[marjifay]

Interesting that Jill Stein is the first nominee for president that I've heard of who admitted being agnostic.  That's a point in her favor as far as I'm concerned.

Marj

[mogamom]

The video regarding Trump was released 4 hours before the wikileak dump on Clinton.  You have to admit, their timing is good, since they've sat on that video for months.  But the new emails provide some very interesting reading; if you don't follow the Dems down every rabbit hole, you find what Hillary is really about.  Sad.  We've always felt manipulated by the Clinton's, the emails show why - because we were.

[Frybabe]

You can bet that this article is getting a lot of local comment (over 560 comments since its posting yesterday). http://www.pennlive.com/news/2016/10/no_prayer_no_food_shelters_tur.html#incart_river_home_pop

I am not aware of any groups that "require" prayer in order to get a meal. Is this a matter of much ado about nothing? It appears that most of those refusing further Federal food aid already do not require prayer, but are refusing because they don't like the Feds requiring them to do (or not do) something they are already practicing. There are other groups that operate food/soup kitchens, but the comments I read all seen to point fingers at Christian based operations.

I see it as just another insidious encroachment on our freedoms (religious and otherwise) even though many organizations already take a non-prayer required stance on their own..

[BarbStAubrey]

I'm thinking this is less about prayer and more about rebelling against institutional control using their need to gain access.

[mogamom]

Some info from emails I find most egregious:

1.  Obama lied re knowing about Clinton's private server
2.  DNC paid 'trolls' to work the social media
3.  Dems on Select Benghazi Committee coordinated with top Clinton lawyer
4.  Saudi Arabia and Qatar financed ISIS; donated to Clinton Foundation
5.  Numerous instances of coordination in access to State Department with Clinton Foundation
6.  DNC colluded with CNN on questions for Trump and Cruz
7.  E-mails between Bland and Podesta - Band relationship with Clinton and Foundation for personal enrichment of Clintons
8.  Collusion between DOJ, FBI, WH, Sate Dept. with release of emails and Benghazi
9.  Changes in positions:
         
           a.  against fracking - but, told Deutsche Bank that she has promoted fracking in many countries, said it was developed by US Govt
           b.  immigration reform, control of borders - adopts Soros' vision of open borders, open trade
           c.  Syrian refugees - to Goldman Sachs, admits refugees a problem in Europe, but wants to increase numbers, relying on    US ability to vet them (though all our main intelligence agencies say that is not possible)
           d.  Syrian no-fly zone - debates said she would establish it; speech to Goldman-Sachs says it would not be effective and would result in too many civilian deaths
           e.  Keystone pipeline - for, then against
10.  Used issues to 'distract' from email server scandal:
            a.  changed position on Keystone pipeine
            b.  Benghazi - "In one exchange from March 2015, for example, Podesta advised his fellow campaign hands that "we want the fight to be about Benghazi, not about servers in her basement."
11.  Discuss ways to interfere with 2008 Republican primaries
12.  Apparently had 'moles' on Biden team, Elizabeth Warren's team (discussed changing position on Glass-Seagull to keep Warren from endorsing Sanders
13.  Obama adm. senior level jobs suggested being filled by Citibank (and many apparently were)
14.  employment rate confirms Trump stance
15.  Many instances of journalists/news media coordinating with Clinton campaign

Also:

1.  2 videos show:  DNCand Clinton campaign (with Hillary's knowledge and permission) coordinated with  agencies (Soros' agencies) to incite violence at Trump rallies, take credit for shutting down Chicago rally
                       Plans for voter fraud

2.  President Obama assures illegals that nothing would be done if they vote
3.  videos showing that Bill Clinton and Obama (at different times) both stated that the 'system is rigged' re elections
4.  videos showing Bill Clinton (State of the Union Address) calling for protecting border (redeived standing ovation)
5.  video showing many times Hillary Clinton called for controlling immigration - side by side with Trump's speeches - saying essentially the same things.
6.  Her stances on the 1st and 2nd amendments; and her praise of Merckle, China's policy of '1 child per family', and Germany's education system (which includes agreement with this adm that 'parents have no intrinsic right to educate their own children...') also raise concerns for me.

And these:

"...And as I've mentioned, we've all been quite content to demean government, drop civics and in general conspire to produce an unaware and compliant citizenry. The unawareness remains strong but compliance is obviously fading rapidly. This problem demands some serious, serious thinking - and not just poll driven, demographically-inspired messaging. ..."

"..2.Immigration: The main reason behind successful immigration should be painfully obvious to even the most dimwitted of observers: Some groups of people are almost always highly successful given only half a chance (Jews*, Hindus/Sikhs and Chinese people, for example), while others (Muslims, blacks** and Roma***, for instance) fare badly almost irrespective of circumstances.  The biggest group of humanity can be found somewhere between those two extremes – the perennial overachievers and the professional never-do-wells...."

"Center for Public Integrity study detailing the federal campaign-finance filings of journalists, reporters, news editors, television news anchors and other donors working in journalism. The study found that 96 percent of those contributions – or about $382,000 – went to the presidential campaign of Hillary Clinton, while the remainder went to Donald Trump.
Federal Election Commission campaign-finance records show that top-level executives at some polling firms conducting presidential polls for major news agencies have contributed hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Democratic Party and to Hillary Clinton’s campaign in this election cycle."

Haiti protest in NYC: ‘Vote Donald Trump’

When asked if the Clinton Foundation came to the aid of the Haitian people following the 2010 earthquake, Andre laughed.
“We understand the Clinton Foundation has been stealing money from Haiti since 2003,” he responded. “In 2008, the United Nations placed Bill Clinton as a special envoy to Haiti. So, this family has been stealing special envoy money, they have been stealing Clinton Foundation money, they have been stealing Interim Haitian Relief Committee money, they have been stealing Clinton-Bush Fund money. The list goes on.”
Andre charged the Clinton Foundation has not been shut down only because “it is being protected” by the Obama administration, specifically by the IRS and the Department of Justice.
“It’s corruption from beginning to end,” Andre asserted. “With Hurricane Matthew, the Clintons cannot even show their head because the whole world knows that they are thieves, and the only reason the Clintons would come to Haiti would be to steal money.”

WikiLeaks has a site that is searchable, for anyone interested, so I didn't put in all the links, but am happy to do so if you want.

Though some would say these are not directly to/from Clinton, reading them you realize fairly quickly that they appear to represent her thinking since she did not refute them.

Whatever the results tomorrow, I'm sure it won't be over.  Many issues have come to fore that really need honest discussion.  I do hope we won't all just switch up sides on bigotry and hatred, but seek real answers that address the multiple views/concerns expressed.

"The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it."  George Orwell

[mogamom]

Since we are also a Constitutional Democracy, I found Gloria Alvarez' speech particularly compelling.

    Gloria Alvarez, youtube
Gloria Álvarez - Parlamento Iberoamericano de la Juventud (settings: subtitles)

[jane]

  One side here is not going to convince the other side of what is right, true, and believable, I'm convinced.  I think, at this late date, each voter has made up his/her mind, and many of us have voted already. 

My hope is that there is a peaceful transition of power.

[BarbStAubrey]

Yep I agree on the vote tomorrow - and for several weeks I think that most voters have decided -

The concern for me and many I know is where do we go for real news - and what do we do to untangle the hold major banks, oil and the pharmaceutical industry (we could add Insurance and Monsanto to the list) has on our system so that except to give our representatives a stamp of approval with our vote, we are no longer represented -

That has to change or we can no longer call ourselves a Republic with a Democratic system.

Part of any change is knowing what we are dealing with and having the information known by the public that can show who is influencing our representatives and how - that takes a media directing journalists to find and report on issues that are against the best interest of the CEO's, Board and Owners of the various news outlets.

[marjifay]

I agree with Jane and hope that there will be a peaceful transition of power.

I have voted early by mail.  BTW,, this is the first year I have known  that we have early voting (other than by mail) in California and so many other states.

I am looking forward to seeing how some of the propositions that are on this year's ballot here in California turn out. One of them (for which I voted a "yes" vote) is to repeal the death penalty.  Another, for which I also voted "yes" was to legalize the smoking of marijuana.  I do not smoke marijuana and I am sure my two adult sons do not, nor will not, smoke it, but It seemed logical to me that if it is okay to drink hard liquor, then why not make it okay to smoke marijuana.  And it will save our state a large bunch of money for paying for the cops, et al, necessary to track down and incarcertate people.   The cultivation of it in the nothern part of our state is California's largest agricultural crop. 

I can hardly wait to see the outcome of the election.  Am so tired of listening to all the hatred spewed back and forth.
 
Marj 
 

[BarbStAubrey]

I'm with you - not only the hatred but all the sleaze - my concern is that it is the new norm...

[mogamom]

I found this in an article in The Hill:

Obama cast Clinton as a guardian of his accomplishments, warning voters in stark terms that a Trump presidency would “reverse every single thing that we’ve done.”

 That, I think,  pretty much sums up the reason for Trump's win: not racism nor sexism - just the stark reality of Americans deciding they did not want to stand by and continue to have a progressive/liberal agenda forced on them.  It's simple, really. They're tired of being bullied.

Obama's 'legacy' was doomed to failure from the time he stated that Congress was not doing their job, but that he had 'a phone and a pen' so he would have to do their job for them.  Now we see that Congress was actually representing some 'folks', and that  those people simply  disagreed with his agenda.

And the media is still getting it wrong.

[marjifay]

I think the reason Trump won was because so many people across the nation are having such a hard time finding good jobs, especially in manufacturing, jobs which have gond overseas.  And they can thank Bill Clinton for that, not Obama.

I didn't realize that Obama's health plan was getting to be so costly.  My don found a health plan under the Affordable Health Program that was better smf cheaper than the one his employer offered.  I think people with previous or current medical conditions are going to be very disappointed when Trump and his gang get rid of Obamacare, and they find they cannot get health insurance at any cost. 

I see that the sock market has taken a big jump, mostly some say because the health insurance and pharmaceutical companies will be able to again screw people who need health covgerage and prescription drugs.

Marj

[mogamom]

You're right about Clinton sending good jobs overseas.  But Obama's TPP would put the nail in the coffin - and he was pushing it mightily.

Obamacare seemed to have been falling apart; some states were facing well over 100% hikes in premium, others were finding many fewer options for insurance companies, and the deductibles necessary to keep premiums affordable were going so high people were questioning why they needed insurance - saying they'd rather pay the fine. 

We'll see what competition can do.  I was getting disappointed by news reports encouraging people to plan health care premiums into retirement costs - saying they would need an avrage of $500 per month to cover the premiums.  That, in my opinion, is ridiculous.  Who could retire with that albatross around their necks?

I do also think it's a statement against globalism(now being labeled 'internationalism') - which seems to mostly benefit Big Banks and Corporations.

[Frybabe]

I share your opinion about Globalism benefiting the business and banks, yet some small bit of me sometimes squeaks that it could end up being a good thing in the end, as in way, way down the road. What bothers me the most is that the farther away government is from the common folks, the more bureaucratic it becomes, the less likely it is to respond to local or regional issues in a timely manner, if at all. And "once size fits all" - doesn't.

There are already global overseers with or without much clout, right now, but someday I foresee them becoming more global regulatory, with or without national treaties. Some global organizations come to mind which we have had for a quite a while now, like the World Bank, the World Health Organization, and the global radio frequency overseers (their name escapes me at the moment). Add the that the recent hand-off to a global organization to oversee web addresses, and the international accounting changes that are in the works. Their goal at the moment is to align accounting methods worldwide so that international businesses are all on the same page for reporting income etc., rather than having to do several different reporting statements depending on the method of the countries use now. This essentially means that accounting standard in the US will be loosened rather that other countries comment up to ours. And who will oversee these global overseer organizations? The UN? Give me a break! Oops! I let an opinion sneak in there.

[marjifay]

I just heard on CNN that Trump has said he may keep parts of Obamacare;  for instance, the part that requires insurance companies to cover people with prior medical conditions, and the part that enables parents to keep their children on their medical plan until they reach age 26.  Trump apparently  still has some Democrat left in him (and doesn't want to alienate any more people!)

Marj

[BarbStAubrey]

He's got Ben Carson working on it - and the article I read had Ben being quoted as saying it will take time to have a good replacement - that it would not happen next year. What ever they do must be voted on in Congress

[marjifay]

i just heard Trump talking to some journalist about amending and not completely repealing Obamocare.  He said it could be amended quickly so there would not be a long period when people would not be able to get coverage if they had a current or previous medical condition.  He also said that what he has in mind would greatly improve Ogamacare and at the same time keep costs much lower.  I wonder whether  he's right about the costs being lower; I bet insurance companies would not agree with him.  Costs for them are bound to increase when they have to insure people with serious medical conditions.

Marj

[BarbStAubrey]

I need to get his book because he is supposed to be a good deal maker - he will have Congress to convince - did you see his 10 point initiative to improve the lives of Black folks - impressive - not at all like a list you could even imagine from a Republican - more like an old fashioned FDR Democrat - I wonder if this guy has like in business they call it a hostile take over and he took over both parties - we shall see but so far what he has said and done I am impressed and I did not even vote for him - the fact he is including his family as his closest team says to me the career Pubs may not have that much of an in with him - it appears we will have a maverick  in the White House

[BarbStAubrey]

Good Grief - he laid out his plan last summer - here is the link - how he plans on making America Great again...

Great Again: How to Fix Our Crippled America