Author Topic: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson ~ Book Club Online ~ Prediscussion  (Read 23379 times)

Persian

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2009, 08:10:33 PM »
 

Three Cups of Tea
by
Greg Mortenson & David Oliver Relin


Three Cups of Tea is an inspirational story of one man's efforts to address poverty, educate girls, and overcome cultural divides.  This book won the 2007 Kiriyama Prize for nonfiction revealing the enormous obstacles inherent in becoming such "family." ~ Bookmarks Magazine

______________

"The first time that you share tea with a Balti, you are a stranger" a villager tells our author.  "The second time, you are an honored guest.  The third time you become family." ~ Three  Cups of Tea

Three Cups of Tea -- Homepage.....
Ignorance -- the Real Enemy.....
Synopsis and Biography.....
.Three Cups of Tea is currently #1 on both
the Washington Post  and the
NY Times  Non-Fiction Best Seller lists.

Discussion Leaders: Andy(ALF43), JoanK & Pedln



Indeed the numerous tribal groups in Afghanistan are significantly different from the residents of Iraq - note that although Iraq is a majority Islamic country, there have are also orthodox Christian communities, as well as Jewish residents.

Here is a link to the various tribal communities in Afghanistan, each with its own customs (reaching back over centuries) and languages.  Many of the tribes are multilingual, as you might expect since their ancestors were often dependent on the numerous Caravans traversing the Middle East and on into Central Asia.  Although the majority of Afghans are Muslim, their individual (and regional) tribal customs also play a major role in their adherence (or not) to Islam.

Note also that although Afghans adhere to Islam, they are NOT Arabs (just as Persians are not Arabs, although many are Muslims) and should not be confused ethnically with the Arabs of other nearby regions.

http://www.cal.org/co/afghan/apeop.html

Mahlia

ALF43

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2009, 11:40:12 AM »
No, I think it's gone forever.  I just can not imagine any one wanting to climb a "killer"mountain like K2.  It is massive  in size and numerous unsuccessful attempts have been made on it by various expeditions, including many American expeditions.

Good Lord, read this account and shiver with me.  Is anyone here, joining us, a dedicated mountain climber or know anyone who is?

It frankly scares the hell out of me.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

JoanK

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2009, 03:46:20 PM »
I'm not a mountain climber, but I'm a dedicated reader of books about mountain climbing. I'm waiting to comment too much until the discussion (we don't want to get discussed out before the discussion), but I can't resist some comments here, which I may repeat later.

I think you either "understand" why they do it, or you don't. I put "understand" in quotes, because I don't mean intellectual understanding, but a feeling: "Oh yes!". I had a long discussion with a friend about this once. she was reading books, trying to understand and couldn't. I leant her my copy of a film made of climbing Everest. I knew when she got to the top (via the film), and looked around, she would either feel it or not (she didn't). No one who tries to explain it really can.

The most popular (and very good) book written about Everest is "Into Thin Air". The best mountaineering book I've ever read for getting into the head of the climber is one that Anna, Jonathan, and I discussed a couple of years ago, by a climber in South America who fell down a crevasse, was left for dead, and literally crawled to safety. I'll haver to come back with the name.

Mortenson was incredibly lucky to have survived. The fact that he threw up all the way up his first climb of Kilimanjaro showed that he was liable to one of the worst enemies of climbers, altitude sickness. It seems that that was his problem coming down K2 --only incredible luck saved him.

ALF43

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2009, 04:00:37 PM »
I must be one of those people then Joan.  I read "Into Thin Air", enjoyed the story, enjoyed the plot but just did not GET IT, as you say.  It defies logic to me. 
Irregardless of the beauty, the splendor or the majesty of the mountain it doesn't call me to climb over it.  I much prefer to see it on Natl. Geographic channel.
   
I am more capable of homicide than suicide and no matter how grand, to me it is a suicidal mission.

With my vertigo, I should make out very well, climbing. :'(
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

JoanR

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2009, 04:10:23 PM »
One of my sons-in-law is a climber.  He started out as a rock climber, graduated to ice, and then on to the big stuff!  He has climbed in the US and Canadian Rockies, Alaska and several years ago Tibet. Scares the livin' daylights out of me but he loves it.  The last 2 years now that he is in his 60's, he has been doing marathons and has finished very creditably in 2 Iron Man marathons.Actually I guess he does anything that's strenuous and pits an individual against himself - he is a professor by profession.  All the rest of the family are mainly spectators!

JoanK - Have you read "A Short Walk in the Hindu Kush"?

ALF43

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2009, 04:21:09 PM »
Well Joan, more power to you and your daughter.  That would scare the "bee-jeebers" out of me. Did you look at that link above?
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

JoanK

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2009, 07:01:24 PM »
JoanR: no, I haven't. Is it good?

JoanR

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2009, 08:38:37 PM »
I think you'd like it.

Persian

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2009, 10:12:32 PM »
During my recent quick trip to Savannah, GA to welcome my son and his family to their new post at Ft. Stewart, he mentioned that although they were thrilled to be back in the USA after 2 1/2 years stationed in Germany, they would miss the opportunities to "climb those beautiful mountains."  During his most recent posting in Germany (before knee surgery last Summer) and an earlier one in the early '80's, David had several marvelous opportunities to climb mountains, take long hikes through some beautiful valleys in Austria and enjoy the natural beauty of the  many areas of Europe.  Although he is no longer able to participate in such rigorous exercise, he enjoys the memories of those wonderful adventures and encourages his son and daughter to "follow in his footsteps."

My son also mentioned - again - his enormous thanks to all the "family of posters" from the former SN discussions, who prayed for he and his soldiers while they were deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, and as he undertook new responsibilities in his former post in Germany.  His new responsibilities in the USA include continuing to prepare Chaplains to counsel with their soldiers who will most certainly be deployed again in the Spring.  So to those former SN posters who now post on this delightful site, many thanks from "Chaps."

Mahlia

pedln

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2009, 10:38:28 PM »
JoanK, I remember reading Into Thin Air, then seeing a production of it on TV, and then later a similar production at the IMAX Theater at the St. Louis Science Museum.  The book talked about the 'ice stairs' or 'ice ladders', a very treacherous area the climbers had to face not only going up, but also coming down.  When I saw them in the IMAX production I couldn't imagine how someone could do them TWICE, let alone once.

When my oldest daughter moved to the Pacific Northwest she immediately started taking mountain climbing classes, and later, preparations for climbing Mt. Ranier. My comment to her was  "I don't want to know when  you go up.  Just tell me when you get back down."  JoanR, I can't imagine someone like your daughter going through that over and over again.

Justin

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #50 on: April 03, 2009, 02:31:22 AM »
Life is full of challenges without one having to invent risky ventures. I am one who does not understand why people choose to climb mountains. My grandson and his Dad both seem to enjoy rock climbing and before the divorce my daughter also participated. I can get enough thrills just crossing the street in San Francisco on a busy afternoon. Reading the grisly excerpt provided on K2 is enough to satisfy my interest in the subject.

 If this book were only about climbing challenges, I wouldn't bother to read it or talk about it. My driving interest in the book derives from it's real challenge- ie; successfully constructing a school for girls in Taliban country. One should not expect uniformity in human attitudes but I am  amazed by the response from the fathers of daughters in this village. They want a school to educate their daughters. Incredible.

Babi

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2009, 08:40:57 AM »
 I suppose the challenge is what it's all about.  Pitting yourself against difficulties, and literally 'coming out on top'.  You have the reward of seeing
sights most people never see, as well as the self-confidence that comes
from succeeding at a demanding challenge.
  Not that I would care to try it.  The ides of "ice steps" is quite enough to discourage me, thank you.  I can't even successfully maneuver iced up porch steps!
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ALF43

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2009, 09:19:01 AM »
Babi- that is SO true and so funny.
Yep, that's why I read.  It's called vicarious living at its best.

Persian- I'm so hapy that Chaps is home safe and sound.  I know what a relief that is.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

ALF43

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2009, 09:20:48 AM »
Heck Justin just getting up in the morning can prove to be a risky adventure, can't it?
And if that weren't enough, turn on the "politicos" or the (not) worthy news broadcasts.

Quote
Life is full of challenges without one having to invent risky ventures.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

JoanK

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2009, 01:49:50 PM »
"Yep, that's why I read.  It's called vicarious living at its best".

"Heck Justin just getting up in the morning can prove to be a risky adventure, can't it?"

You guys hit the nail on the head!!

You're right, too, Justin -- building schools for girls!!?! Amazing.

Justin

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2009, 07:53:23 PM »
If we keep up this charming  banter, by May 1, we'll be on our third cup of tea.

JoanK

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2009, 08:38:52 PM »
If not before.

Persian

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #57 on: April 03, 2009, 09:33:42 PM »
ALF - thanks!  Yes indeed, it is a relief to have my son and his family back in the USA.  He has been reading Three Cups of Tea and told me recently that it "truthfully depicts the region, the people and the desperate need of the children" in Afghanistan.  He and some of his soldiers (and their families in the USA) identified many different ways to help the local communities with which they interacted during Chaps' deployment several years ago.  While in-country, he spoke with several village elders, as well as the fathers of numerous children and youth.  When he returned to the USA, Chaps' teenage son and some of his friends undertook to continue to send educational materials . . . . and still do so today.  The need is great!

Mahlia

Justin

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #58 on: April 04, 2009, 01:03:51 AM »
Mahlia; Perhaps we should try to put some educational care packages together for Afghan children. Can you recommend some appropriate items for inclusion and a mechanism for getting the stuff into the right hands?

Babi

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #59 on: April 04, 2009, 10:00:08 AM »
If you're interested, here is a news item reflecting the current situation in Afghanistan. (I have forgotten how to insert a short title for the long address. Can someone tell me again?)

news story
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ALF43

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #60 on: April 04, 2009, 10:11:29 AM »
 Babi- I will try.

before you enter the http part which IS the url you must put [url = ]
Don't leave any spaces like I just did.
copy the url next (that's the http thingey and then close it with another bracket  [/url ]

If you want to add your own words, instead of that big long http thing that comes up, you can.  Add your own words such as "click here" before you close it with the url.  like this-- check it out by hitting the modify button above.
CLICK HERE
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

Persian

  • Posts: 181
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #61 on: April 04, 2009, 12:25:40 PM »
JUSTIN - Thanks for inquiring about how to contribute.  Here is a link to the Central Asia Institute, which Greg Mortenson founded.  Click on the title Projects and you'll have an idea of what is going on with the planning for the range of needs.

https://www.ikat.org/

ANY type of educational supplies - pencils, notebooks, backpacks (or smaller satchels for the youngest children), coloring items (colored pencils, crayons, small sized paint kits (including brushes), chalk, erasers, small stand-alone blackboards (the kind which can be propped up against a couple of books on a table or window ledge) - would be welcome.  Since it's more feasible to ship sizable packs, community groups usually get together and either contribute funds or purchase, pack and ship supplies.

The Pennies for Peace project is an excellent opportunity for American children and youth to band together to collect pennies (and, of course, other coins) for the children in Central Asia.  This type of collection can be in conjunction with a bake sale, a yard sale or any other type of sale with the proceeds designated to the Asian children and their needs.  OR the donors can simply bring their jars, cans, socks full of pennies to a designated site, where the coins will be counted.  Click on the Pennies for Peace title at Mortenson's site and you'll find more info about this program.

Depending on where you live (and your interest in dealing with the military), you might contact a nearby post and inquire if they have a program which would allow folks to collect and contribute either supplies or donations for the Asian children.  Some of the military posts are VERY active via their families - especially those who have had members serve in earlier deployments or are overseas now.  In the latter category, the contributions would be sent by military families at home  to their relatives who are overseas right now (usually along with tons of cookies and other snacks for the soldiers).  Upon arrival overseas, the gifts for the soldiers are immediately distributed; the contributions for the Asian children are handed over to
Squad leaders for distribution to Elders (and with their permission directly to children) while on patrol.  Some patrols do NOT interact with local residents (depending on their mission), while others do frequently.

The idea of contributing to the Asian children (and how best to do so) is really a matter of what YOU want to do; how often, how much, and whether you want to undertake to set up a donation/receivership site OR just write a check.  Everyone has their own comfort level and time restrictions.  Some grandparents get their grands involved - often several school classes.
Some VFW, Masons or other clubs establish their own collection/shipping enterprises.  But whatever is done - contributions or hands-on organization - is truly much appreciated.  If one has NOT personally witnessed the enormous levels of poverty and illiteracy, it is hard to imagine.  But once those circumstances become clear, folks tend to be enormously generous and encourage others to be also.

And you might check with various community organizations or churches, synagogues, mosques and temples to inquire if they have programs already launched to which you could contribute.

Mahlia

JoanK

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #62 on: April 04, 2009, 02:50:09 PM »
Thanks, Mahlia. I'll repeat this discussion when we are reading the book: perhaps people will want to do something jointly or individually.

pedln

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #63 on: April 04, 2009, 05:06:55 PM »
That's an absolutely fascinating link, Mahlia.  While it was loading I was wondering why it was called ikat rather than CAI for Central Asia Institute, and then there was the question and the answer -- a name symbolizing  the strength, beauty, and resilience of the Central Asia communities.  I was especially interested in the publication Journey of Hope, that documents Mortenson's work, and was saddened to learn of the untimely death of its photographer, Deirdre Eitel.

Persian

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #64 on: April 04, 2009, 07:56:47 PM »
Resilience is indeed the key description of the Central Asian communities.  One of my former students from the University of Maryland came to China while I was a visiting professor in Chongqing.  During our "catch-up" conversation, she mentioned that she had also planned to travel in a group to the Northern and border regions of Afghanistan and Pakistan.  When we both returned to UM and happened to meet again, this "typical" college student was a changed young lady.  And she has been deeply involved in volunteer work for children in Central Asia ever since.

Mahlia

Babi

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2009, 09:14:58 AM »
Thanks, ALF.  I'll seen if I've got it right the next time I want to use a link.  If not, I'll be back.   ;)
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Justin

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #66 on: April 05, 2009, 09:46:56 PM »


KABUL, Afghanistan — President Hamid Karzai ordered a review on Saturday of a new law that has been criticized internationally for introducing Taliban-era restrictions on women and sanctioning marital rape.

Robert Nickelsberg/Getty Images/ New York Times

President Hamid Karzai addressed concerns about a new family law during a news conference in Kabul on Saturday.

The president defended the law, which concerns family law for the Shiite minority, and said Western news media reports were misinformed. Nevertheless, he said his justice minister would review it and make amendments if the law was found to contravene the Constitution and the freedoms that it guarantees.

“The Western media have either mistranslated or taken incorrect information and then published it,” Mr. Karzai said at a news briefing in the presidential palace on Saturday. “If there is anything in contradiction with our Constitution or Shariah, or freedoms granted by the Constitution, we will take action in close consultation with the clerics of the country.”

If changes are needed, he said, the bill would be sent back to Parliament.

Human rights officials have criticized the law, in particular for the restrictions it places on when a woman can leave her house, and for stating the circumstances in which she has to have sex with her husband.

A Shiite woman would be allowed to leave home only “for a legitimate purpose,” which the law does not define. The law also says, “Unless the wife is ill, the wife is bound to give a positive response to the sexual desires of her husband.” Critics have said that provision legalizes marital rape.

The law also outlines rules on divorce, child custody and marriage, all in ways that discriminate against women, said Soraya Sobhrang, commissioner for women’s rights at the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission.

While the law applies only to Shiites, who represent approximately 10 percent of the population, its passage could influence a proposed family law for the Sunni majority and a draft law on violence against women, Ms. Sobhrang said. “This opens the way for more discrimination,” she said.

Mr. Karzai signed the law last week after a vote in Parliament last month, Ms. Sobhrang said, adding that she had seen a copy of the law with his signature.

However, the presidential spokesman, Homayun Hamidzada, would not confirm that the president had signed the law and said only that the he was still reviewing it.

Mr. Karzai’s decision to review the law came after a storm of criticism in recent days. Canada called in the Afghan ambassador for an explanation, and NATO’s secretary general questioned why the alliance was sending men and women to fight in Afghanistan when discrimination against women was condoned by law.

Asked about the law at a news conference in Strasbourg, France, on Saturday, President Obama called it “abhorrent.”

“We think that it is very important for us to be sensitive to local culture,” he said, “but we also think that there are certain basic principles that all nations should uphold, and respect for women and respect for their freedom and integrity is an important principle.”

Also on Saturday, Italy’s defense minister said Italy was considering a temporary withdrawal of the women serving in its force in Afghanistan to protest the law, Reuters reported.

The United Nations high commissioner for human rights, Navi Pillay, said the law represented a “huge step in the wrong direction.”

“For a new law in 2009 to target women in this way is extraordinary, reprehensible and reminiscent of the decrees made by the Taliban regime in Afghanistan in the 1990s,” Ms. Pillay said in a statement posted on her agency’s Web site. “This is another clear indication that the human rights situation in Afghanistan is getting worse, not better.”

In addition to the clauses on when women may leave the home and must submit to their husbands, Ms. Pillay said she was concerned about a section that forbids women from working or receiving education without their husband‘s permission.

Ms. Sobhrang, who has been working on the issue for the last two years, said women’s groups and the human rights commissions had worked with Parliament to introduce amendments but then the law was suddenly pushed through with only three amendments. The bill as originally drawn up by Shiite clerics barred a woman from leaving the house without her husband’s permission, she said. The parliamentary judicial commission amended that provision to say that a woman could leave the house “for a legitimate purpose.”

Mr. Karzai cited that provision in a news conference on Saturday, pointing out that the final version of the law did not ban a woman from leaving her house. But Ms. Sobhrang said even as amended the law contravened the Constitution, which recognizes equal rights for men and women. The term “for a legitimate purpose” was open to interpretation, she added.

She said Mr. Karzai had supported women’s rights in the past but seemed to have given that up in recent months. Some Western officials have speculated that he signed the law to win the support of conservative Shiite clerics in coming presidential elections.

Yet the leading cleric behind the Family Law, Sheik Muhammad Asif Mohseni, complained last week that he was dissatisfied with the amendments that Parliament had made to his original draft. Speaking on his own television channel, Tamadun Television, he objected to the introduction of a legal age for marriage, “16 for women and 18 for men,” saying that people should be able to decide for themselves.

Human rights officials consider raising the marriage age a critical step toward ending the common practice of forced marriages and the marriage of young girls.

Another amendment gave women longer custody of young children in the case of divorce. In the original draft, women could have custody of a son until he was 2 years old, and a daughter until she was 7. The amended version raises the ages to 7 for boys and 9 for girls.

Ms. Sobhrang criticized both versions for not taking into account the interests and desires of the children.




It looks to me as though the good folks of Afghanistan  are still at it. Americans may curb the abusive power of the Taliban but the problem is really in the Koran  and the people's submission to it's dictums  and to the mullahs who interpret the Koran. What good are schools for girls if the doors are  closed and locked?

 

Babi

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #67 on: April 06, 2009, 09:00:44 AM »
While the law applies only to Shiites,

  I cannot imagine a national law that only applies to a minority section of the population. That is discrimination in itself.  I can only suppose they are attempting to write 'family' laws that reflect the beliefs and customs of particular groups, but that most certainly opens the door to further discriminatory laws. 
  I think, JUSTIN, that the problem does not lie so much in the Koran, as in
particular interpretations reflecting a groups own cultural mores and traditions.
The Koran actually gave women a good deal more in the way of rights, control and power than they had had before.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Justin

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2009, 02:39:11 PM »
Babi: It is certainly true that variation in emphasis occurs depending upon cultural history and traditions but the essential element that commands men to rule over women lies in the sura 4:34. If a husband merely thinks his wife is going to disobey him he is instructed by this sura to beat her. How severely he beats her may depend upon custom or cultural heritage but the essential command cannot be denied. Members of the Wahabi tribe may beat her to death while those in Korphe may be more lenient but suspected disobedience is punishable by beating the woman.

The question of what rights a woman was accorded prior to the advent of Islam is moot really. We just don't know. I don't suppose a woman's life was ever completely free of male restriction. It is a work in progress. 

kidsal

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2009, 06:37:24 PM »
When I was in college I worked for an engineering professor during the summer.  He was so proud and wished I could meet his son who was going to climb K2.  His son was killed on K2 and his body was not found for many years.  I imagine his father was no longer alive when they recovered his son's body.

JoanK

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2009, 06:53:35 PM »
That is so sad.

Persian

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #71 on: April 07, 2009, 10:27:20 PM »
JUSTIN - indeed the Holy Qu'ran does indicate in Sura 34 (English translation) that "Men are the protection and maintainers of women . . ." and continues to state that ". . . the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them guard.  These early sentences are in reference to women protecting and looking after the possessions of men (household, property, reputation, etc) in the men's absence.

The Arabic word which causes so much dispute in at least 20 English language interpretations of the Holy Qu'ran is "daraba," which has been translated to mean a variety of acts.  For example, "beat, hit, strike, scourge, chastise, flog, make an example of and tap lightly (to show displeasure)."

I recall reading an article in The New York Times several years ago about an Iranian/American woman who was translating the holy book.  She came across the above variances in her research and wondered how could there be encouragement to "beat" women when the Prophet Muhammad never beat women.  Nor encouraged other men to beat their wives or daughters or any female relations.  In the article, a renowned Islamic scholar stated that he believed the word had been "mistranslated" during the centuries, since his understanding from his own research and many years living and working in the Gulf region among very religious Muslims was that the references was one of "tribal background" which the Prophet Muhammad did NOT condone and by the 10th century, the custom of physical retaliation against women was no longer part of the local (Gulf Arab) culture.

Another reference to the meaning of the Arabic word "daraba" was noted in Edward William Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon, a 3,064-page volume from the 19th century.  In that text, the definition of "daraba" was "to go away" or "separate from."  In the 21st century, it means to "send away."

Thus, indeed, there are many instances where or cultural (tribal) customs, as well as different branches of Islam (coupled with country-wide customs) AND the level of male pride indicate different responses to behavior.  But then that is true NOT only in Islam, but world-wide in many cultures.  In my personal experiences, I have often been reminded that my interpretation of a word, phrase or understanding of a local custom may NOT be totally correct.

BABI - you make an excellent point in reminding us that women of the earlier period - especially in the time of the Prophet Muhammad and via his own personal treatment of women in his family - often gave women much more power to make their own decisions, follow through, speak for themselves, undertake business ventures and make decisions for their  families without the fear of physical abuse.

KIDSAL - It is hard to imagine the grief the Father experienced, yet at the same time we can respect the intense interest and commitment which allowed his son to make the commitment to climb K2 and his Father's pride in him.

Mahlia


Justin

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2009, 01:36:47 AM »
Clearly your translation of the Qu'ran is different from mine. I have the Dawood translation and it is quite specific in it's description of punishment. It is unquestionably the current practice to flog women who get out of line. There were two incidents in recent weeks alone. One involved a seventy year old woman and another, a beating of a younger woman, was captured on tape and run on the evening news.

If your translation differs from mine, as substantially as you indicate, one of the translations represents a deviation from the standard text and I think, it would be at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Qu'ran as it has reached us today is the perfect, timeless, an unchanging "Word of God." 

There is an evident timidity on the part of scholars to deal with the historical Qu'ran. The Sal Rushdie case engenders fear in the community and in the last twenty-five years the Yemeni fragments have lain under lock and key. Gerder Puin restored those fragments to readable form and  so far as I know only two scholars have been given access. Puin thought that the documents could be dated as far back as the seventh century. They are reluctant to publish more for fear they will lose access because so many Muslims believe that everything between the two covers is just God's unaltered word.


Babi

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin - Coming May 1st
« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2009, 09:01:18 AM »
 Those who wish to believe the Christian Bible is the 'infallible' word of God face the same dilemma.  There are variations in the translations that have come down over the years. People and their works are unquestionably 'fallible'.
  Persian covered the subject pretty thoroughly, but I will go ahead and add my two cents. I found the scripture you mention, JUSTIN.  I thought I would copy the portion that applies.  The explanatory parenthetical words are part of the text in my copy.
  "As to those women on whose part ye fear
 disloyalty and ill-conduct,
  admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds,
  (and last) beat them (lightly)....

 
  Certainly, in these days, we deplore violence against women/wives of any kind. In all fairness, tho', we should remember that within Christian populations men could also beat their wives and/or abuse them in other ways. In some places they had no legal or financial rights whatsoever. Society as a whole has vastly improved since those days. As you say, it's a work in progress.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Persian

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson - May 1st
« Reply #74 on: April 08, 2009, 11:31:57 AM »
JUSTIN - The English language translation of the Holy Qu'ran (including extensive footnotes) which I have was translated by the late Ustadh ABDULLAH YUSUF ALI, printed with approval by the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques (King Fahd ibn Abdul Aziz, at that time the Deputy Prime Minister) with authorization from the General Presidency of the Departments of Islamic Researches, Ifta, Call and Guidance to undertake the responsibility of assuring that the published text was as true to the original as possible.  My copy was presented to me by the former Saudi Arabian Ambassador in Washington DC, when I served as the former Cultural Liaison Officer at the Egyptian Embassy there.

Certainly in this edition (as in all editions of translated work), there are nuances that simply cannot be translated 100% correctly into the contemporary Western English language with which we are familiar today.  However, as an American of multi-faith family heritage, I have often discussed with Muslims of both genders from various world regions (and various levels of education and faith commitment) their understanding of the treatment of women by men.  In the majority of responses, men have simply replied that "women are the core of our families;"
"the hand that rocks the cradle is the center of our world; and among my own family - my husband is Egyptian - "if we men abuse women, we will be prevented from entering Heaven."

In rural global regions, where I have traveled (the Middle East particularly), rural tribal women indeed "rule the world" of the small communities.  I have witnessed their influence personally.
And in discussing the topic in small family gatherings, the women have laughed uproariously, while the men have smiled quietly.  In discussing the topic with only women's groups, these illiterate women have assured me that "in the mainstream" their men do NOT abuse them.

Just as in any community world-wide, there are deviants who are abusive - to each other, to children and youth, and to those whom they deem threatening or not acceptable.  Sometimes, emotional and mental disorders also play a role in deviant or abusive behavior.

In the time of the Prophet Muhammad - just as in the earlier time of Jesus and the Jewish tribes - the cultural behavior was much different than what we in the 21st century are accustomed to.  The deviations of behavior then were outrageous, just as they would be now, especially between the genders.  Yet the Prophet Muhammad taught - and insisted - that women were to be respected and not abused.  His own behavior towards the women of his family showed that clearly.

In contemporary times, there continues to be abberations of acceptable behavior on many communities.  I recall reading a few months ago about a Muslim couple - in the NE I think - where the husband killed the wife.  These were modern, successful business people, who had immigrated to the USA and worked hard to establish their own business.  Yet the husband not only abused, but murdered his wife.  There have been several other occasions reported in the media over the years where what I call "male pride" took upper stage and women in a family were abused and killed - one I recall was a young woman who had fallen in love without her father's approval.  She ran away from home; the father searched for her, found her and killed her.  To him, he took the correct action, according to "his culture" - not his religion, but his culture.

In my own interactions with Islamic communities, individuals and their faith leaders, some of the men are absurdly (to my way of thinking) orthodox, refusing to speak to me directly, look at me, or shake my hand (which is common in introductions in the Gulf countries).  Others - even those of advanced age - are much more engaging.  There seems to be a lot of personal initiative (as well as education and world awareness), involved in the differences I've witnessed and experienced personally.


BABI - you've made an excellent point:  We are ALL a work in progress.

Justin

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson - May 1st
« Reply #75 on: April 09, 2009, 02:26:02 AM »
Malia: Your background in the Middle East will do wonders for this conversation when we get started on Mortenson. It is hard to wait for the discussion to begin.

I must assume that your translation is based on the authorized version established during the caliphate of Uthman in roughly 644-656. It was written in kufic script, of course, with no vowels or diacritical points. The text , as I understand it, simply ran together with one word following another and for this reason variants tend to be recognized by muslims as of equal authority.  To this day this version is regarded by believers as the authoritative word of God. In fact it is God who speaks in most surahs. There are exceptions, of course.

The Dawood translation first appeared in 1956 in England in a Penguin edition and has subsequently sold over a million copies. In making the translation the author has closely followed the commentaries of Al-Zamakhshari, Al-Baidawi and Al-Jalalayn. You have probably used this work either as a text in your comparative religion classes or as a reference  long before receiving your gift from the minister.

The Dawood translation that I have is much more severe in 4:34 than you and Babi have reported. Let me quote so you can feel the power of this passage.

"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, forsake them in beds apart, and beat them. Then if they obey you take no further action against them."

Clearly, that is a much stronger message than either of you have reported.

The problem that I see is that males see that message as a command and do as God tells them. I am more than willing to grant that it is some males and not all males who respond as strongly as the deviants we have recently seen in the newspapers. However, the passage is justification for the actions of the religious police who punish women who fail to cover up sufficiently. Similar messages can be found in the OT and NT and some Christian males of fundamental persuasion rule at home with an iron hand and their wives are persuaded to comply.

Why am I making such a point of this? When a man abuses a woman in the US he knows he is doing wrong. If he doesn't, he soon finds himself in jail and his errors are clearly explained to him. He may do it again and often does but he has no authorization from a religion to rely on for justification (except fundamental Christians). On the other hand, in Islamic countries, a man feels he is allowed to  discipline his wife and that if she gets out  of line and he does nothing about it, he is not much of a man to his friends and family. I argue that the problem is not with the males but with the Qu'ran. Without 4:34 religious justification would go away and abusive males could be convinced of the error of their ways. If we are ever to end the abuse of women we must start somewhere and the Qu'ran and the Bible are good places to start.

Babi

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson - May 1st
« Reply #76 on: April 09, 2009, 09:20:02 AM »
Mahlia, the "work in progress" comment was Justin's.  I was just referring back to what he had said.
  BTW, I am greatly enjoying the posts from both of you.  It's a pleasure to read the 'conversation'.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Persian

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson - May 1st
« Reply #77 on: April 09, 2009, 09:58:55 AM »
JUSTIN - you are absolutely correct that the Holy Qu'ran and the Bible are "good places to start" in efforts to eliminate the abuse of women, yet it is also essential that traditional cultures be understood more thoroughly so that those efforts are NOT sidetracked needlessly.

For example, I read recently that Islam is NOT well understood in the USA and that many individuals who responded to the poll did "not know one Muslim."  That may sound unusual in our multicultural country, but I was reminded of my travels in China, where I often was stared at by rural people who had obviously never seen an American.  But as I continued to travel, several of my Chinese students (who often served as interpreters for me in the vast countryside) explained that the surprise in seeing me was NOT just that I was an American (since the villagers didn't know my nationality), but the paleness of my skin, the light blue color and (non-Asian) shape of my eyes, as well as my "purposeful" stride.

It was interesting to me that whereas numerous Middle Eastern Muslims (men and women) would not engage in conversation with me, the Chinese Muslims whom I met and conversed with (often in my very poor Chinese, which made them laugh often) had no qualms about talking with me, answering my questions and sharing their tea - often even 3 cups!

I've met Muslim tribesmen from the vast Western regions of China who would not otherwise have paid any attention to me whatsoever until they learned I could ride bareback thanks to the training offered to me many years ago by a wonderful Oglala Sioux elder (the grandfather of one of the students I tutored in Montana).  So for me, traditional local cultural habits have always played a major role in the way I have been treated by people throughout the world who are much different than I am.  And in the past few years I have found that to be especially true here in the American South to which I relocated from the metropolitan Washington DC area after a 30 year residency.  The latter is very much a "work in progress," but I seldom now hear the once regularly posed question "WHERE are you from?"  Now our big challenge is to get people to stop thinking my husband is Latino or Hispanic (and speaking to him in Spanish when in public), when indeed he is Egyptian.

Another local challenge for residents and elected officials in our area (20 miles NE of Charlotte, NC) is to better understand the variables of gangs and gang-warfare.  Recent published stats indicate that there are more than 300,000 people of Latino and/or Hispanic heritage living within the State.  Recently, the local police departments worked with TV stations to produce a special on GANGS in the area, especially those involved in drugs and sex slavery operations.
The published responses in local print and on area TV news programs indicated - again - that local residents were for the most part uninformed about the history of gangs, why they are involved in these heinous acts and how to curtail them. 

Additionally, recent TV news programs and a soon-to-be-shown special on the lack of border security with Mexico further enhance the lack of wide-spread public understanding about the role of "male dominant" cultural behavior and female dependency.  Recently, one local man, originally from Mexico, who was arrested in the local area, insisted that the young women (often in their early to mid teens), whom he transported and treated as sex slaves, prostrate themselves daily in front of a statue of St. Muerte (the Saint of Death).  If they didn't he abused them further, before sending them to "clients" who would abuse them for hours. 
AGAIN - culture, greed and male dominance come heavily into this heinous situation, as well as drugs and poverty.

RE the various translations of the Holy Qu'ran - yes, I am familiar with the Dawood edition and it has been useful in many instances.  The quotation you mentioned is indeed the "orthodox" version and there are undeniably believers who adhere to that version.  My hope is that as we progress through the discussion of Mortenson's Three Cups of Tea, the posters here will gain new insight into how the efforts of one person (originally), enhanced by others who joined in contributing to his education projects (and continue to do so) can contribute to changing the world for the better, one step at a time.  And if our children and youth take the time "to listen to the wind," they, too can learn the positives about other people quite different from themselves, while at the same time helping to reduce the abuse of both genders in all world regions.

Mahlia


JoanK

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson - May 1st
« Reply #78 on: April 09, 2009, 03:33:25 PM »
This is a wonderful discussion, giving us a chance to learn about cultures that I and most Americans, understand little. Although I know a number of Muslims, not with a degree of closeness that would allow me to explore such issues.

Growing up in Washington DC, I went to school with children of many different backgrounds. In graduate school, many of my fellow students were from Iran, and when I lived in Israel, I had friends from all over the world. I have always considered these experiences a blessing: each encounter with a different culture has increased and deepened my sense of my own. That doesn't mean that I agree with or adopt everything I hear. But it does make me realize how many different ways humans can view their world. And sometimes it even helps me find a better way.

Sociologists have a phrase:" a fish cannot see the water it swims in: it is only by getting out of the water and looking back, can it see that the water is there. We don't see our own culture: the many assumptions that we take for granted, until we meet people whose assumptions are different. Then we see ourselves more clearly: the good, the bad, and the indifferent.

Persian

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Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson - May 1st
« Reply #79 on: April 09, 2009, 08:05:17 PM »
JOAN- how true it is that we learn so much about ourselves by interacting with people from other cultures and "stretching our minds."  Indeed, it is not necessary to accept for oneself all that is learned from others, but it is always interesting and gives an overview to how others think of themselves and the world.

I can appreciate your early experiences in Washington DC.  I lived and worked in Maryland and the metropolitan Washington area for more than 35 years and the diversity among my neighbors, colleagues, students, academic, USG and diplomatic colleagues and the communities in general was a marvelous learning experience.  Although my son left the area in 1982, he still thinks of Montgomery County, MD as "home."

I, too, had opportunities to meet many Iranians during my service at the University of Maryland and during Summer teaching sessions at American and George Washington Universities.  Several of the students I met at the University of Tehran in the mid-70's subsequently studied in Washington.  And of course there has been a large Iranian population in Northern Virginia for many years.  I was always intrigued that so many of the Iranian students, visiting faculty and a few Ministerial officials whom I met were from varied backgrounds:  Persian, Circasian, Turkish and Middle Eastern Jews, as well as Western European and North American.  Truly a blend of cultures and customs.

Indeed this discussion should be an interesting experience, once the core topic of Three Cups of Tea gets underway.  I'm looking forward to it!

Mahlia