Those Angry Days by Lynne Olson ~ August Bookclub Online

[HaroldArnold]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

August Book Club Online

THOSE ANGRY DAYS by Lynne Olson
Roosevelt, Lindbergh, and America’s Fight Over World War II, 1939-1941  

".............the definitive account of the debate over American intervention in World War II—a bitter, sometimes violent clash of personalities and ideas that divided the nation and ultimately determined the fate of the free world.   - The New York Times “In Those Angry Days, journalist-turned-historian Lynne Olson captures [the] period in a fast-moving, highly readable narrative punctuated by high drama. It’s . . . popular history at its most riveting, detailing what the author rightfully characterizes as ‘a brutal, no-holds-barred battle for the soul of the nation.’ It is sure to captivate readers seeking a deeper understanding of how public opinion gradually shifted as America moved from bystander to combatant in the war to preserve democracy.”—Associated Press

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
August 1-7	Chapters 1-7
August 8-14	Chapters 8-14
August 15-21	Chapters 15-21
August 22-28	Chapters 22-28

Discussion Leaders:   Ella  & Harold

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HAROLD - ---   

"THE ARCHITECTS OF AMERICA"S OVERARCHING ROLE IN THE POSTWAR WORLD..............WERE DETERMINED TO CREATE A PAX AMERICANA, A VISION OF THEIR COUNTRY'S FUTURE............THAT DEMANDED THE 'RESHAPING OF AMERICA'S TRADITIONAL ROLE.......AND A RESTRUCTURING OF THE GLOBAL BALANCE OF POWER.  

IT WAS A RESHAPING THAT WOULD LEAD TO THE VIETNAM AND IRAQ WARS, AMONG OTHER FUTURE CONFLICTS.

In response to Ella's question here is my version of what the above statement means.  In effect it means an American (USA) imposed peace.   Apparently "PAX" is a Latin Word meaning peace.  Previous epochs have been styled The Pax Romania and Pax Britannia and now it seems to be America's turn.

Since the end result is an imposed Peace, not a voluntary one, Military force imposed by the peace keeper is often required hence in recent years the Korean War, Viet Nam and particularly recent US support of Israel,the  Iraq invasion , Annual Multi Billion Dollar payments to Egypt, and now the likely US intervention in a Serian civil War.

    

[CallieOK]

Thank you, Ella and Harold for leading a thought-provoking discussion on an era I didn't personally experience and hadn't really given any thought.

I fear we are, indeed, reaping what we sowed - and I doubt that very many of us in our "age group" will like the changes.
However, our grandchildren won't know anything else from experience and I have confidence that they will handle things just as we did and our parents did - etc. etc., albeit in a far different manner.

I've just checked out a biography of Alice Roosevelt Longworth.   I've only had time to browse the introduction but did catch one statement:   "She was the voice of America First."  It will be interesting to learn how she interacted with Lindbergh and the others mentioned in "Those Angry Days".

'Til next time.....

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, I am with Harold on the explanation of Pax Americana - which would explain the interest in entering the Syrian conflict that does not have any 'good' side - Either Assad or the Sunni, which would unite Syria with Iran.

This book appears to be a pivot to so many instances and leaders mentioned that pepper history before and after these 18 months.

My Grandson (age 19) just spent 8 weeks in China and found a few modern magnificent buildings like the Beijing airport, although the smog in Beijing was so thick he could not see beyond a few 100 yards - he spent much time in the interior and the cities are lively but the nation has a long way to go to compare to the life style advantages we take for granted.

Regardless, I do not understand anyone who suggests the success of one nation is at the decline of another - that is believing the economic value of our imagination put into services and products is static and limited so that it is a see saw of success with one nation up and another down -

I just do not see a limited static economic future much like a pie that we grab a section because that is all there is - common sense says to me the pie has been growing larger every century plus, the Asian families would not be sending their children in droves here to the US for their collage education if our higher education was not teaching what they do not offer - which as I understand it from my many Asian Clients, they do not offer a learning path to creativity only, a well honed path to traditional rote scholarship.  

Personally I think we have been programed or, like this book enlightened us, the propaganda machine has us leery of China - between our support for South Korea and Taiwan and our combo fear and hatred of Communism, China has never gotten the press that Japan received and continues to receive - if history were the measuring stick China today should be a close ally with mixed feelings about Japan - if we can be so supportive of Japan, who became an economic success story than why not China.

[Jonathan]

What do we read next? I would like to suggest Robert Kaplan's latest book: The Revenge of Geography, with the subtitle:  What the map tells us about coming conflicts and the battle against fate.

Everyone must have read one or other of his many books. He has established himself as an authority on the history and politcs of the hot spots in the world. He's described as among the world's "Top 100 Global Thinkers", as a geopolitical analyst, and has served as a member of the Defense Policy Board. And... what a resume!

Pax Americana. What you have said is all very true, but it's not the whole picture. It should also include the shining example the U.S. has shown the world, and which every powerful state has emulated. With great magnanimity it set both Japan and Germany on a path that got them far more than their wars. And, irony of ironies, both the Soviet Union and Red China have adopted variations of the American Way as a way to the future. Pax American is all about competition and, of course, globalization.

This has been a wonderful discussion. What I like best about the book is how the author has left it to the reader to decide who was putting America first, the president or the citizen?

[Jonathan]

Just read your post, Barb. Right on.

These book discussions inevitably take one back to some other book one has read and would now, perhaps, like to read again. I found it interesting that Gilbert Highet was part of the entourage of British Intelligence people in Washington in this period. The Oxford don. If you like the Latin poets, try reading his book, Poets in a Landscape. The crowd that included Vergil, Horace, and Ovid. A wonderful read.

And then there is the Prussian scene. I have a marvellous book by Hedwig von Bismarck, the cousin of the famous Bismarck, written when she  reached the age of 95! The spirit of the book is captured in one of her statements, that she had had such a delightful childhood, it kept her cheerful for the rest of her life.

[Jonathan]

And of course, the book Deb recommeded: A Man Called Intrepid, by William Stevenson. If you like intrgue and adventure, this is it.

[Jonathan]

And another by Stevenson, listed in Olson's bibliography: Spymistress,The Life of Vera Atkins, the Greatest Female Secret Agent of World War II. I've got the book, and I see we meet some of the same characters, like Goering and Donavan. And there's FDR. And Churchill, with a column of references, is having a wonderful time.

[BarbStAubrey]

I know the books go on and on - so many characters that we can remember some, but others are quickly gathering dust only to be remembered by those historians writing books - I am thinking these names and deeds feel nostalgic where as truth be told I do not have a similar memory for the  history and secondary characters of the first World War much less most other European wars of even Asian conflicts.

Reading Churchill and the Boar war keeps coming up - now I have to find out what that was all about. The characters in Olson's book have long kite tails that could keep me reading for a year or more.

Jonathan - been reading the Ian Kershaw Hitler - whew quite a tome - anyhow find he is coming from his agenda of what was the matter with the man - it appears most Hitler authors have a viewpoint that they write about the man from that view point and most are afraid of saying anything that gives a rounded look without being apologetic or that could be critiqued as having an unhistorical bias about the man - I think I finally found an author that is doing that R.H.S. Stolfi author of Hitler: Beyond Evil and Tyranny. 

Stolfi is  professor emeritus at the US Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, CA, and a retired colonel in the US Marine Corps Reserve and most who have critiqued the book make sure his thoughts are looked at through the glass of blame for history however, reading the book I am learning Hitler was like the Roosevelt of Germany for the first 5 years. Roosevelt inherited depression and fear while Hitler inherited run-away inflation and loss of dignity. They both did a yeoman's job of getting their nations on track with Hitler having done it in 5 years. And so it is easy to see, as the author points out the love affair German's had with Hitler and the mania of swooning young girls rushing to see him.

So far, I see Kershaw trying to trace his later inhuman and controlling behavior to his upbringing and early years in Austria - not so sure - that can be fraught with landmines with psychology changing faster than the snap of the fingers with new understandings each year about how the brain works. Because that to me is the million dollar question - when did Hitler go from the vision of a third Reich to European if not World control - is it, as so many books outline others and their behavior that success breeds/needs more and greater success regardless if the success is moral or not.

[BarbStAubrey]

Having started Len Scales The Shaping of German Identity it appears to have been the big discussion with several books written by university professors around the turn the nineteenth into the twentieth century with questions of nationality, a national consciousness followed by, German nationality as a political national consciousness which is traced back to medieval Strasbourg Oaths, in 842 when German lands and French nations began to separate and for the first time the swearing was in separate German and Romance versions.

A Catholic medievalist, Heinrich Finke remarks during a speech in 1916 about World Imperialism and National Movements in the later Middle Ages that the German claim to "epochal achievement the liberation of Europe's peoples from its yoke: it was the racial energy of the fresh and youthful Germanic peoples that once over threw the dominion of imperial Rome."

With all this background that any serious minded person like Lindbergh must have some acquaintance with this line of thinking I can readily see why he believed this was an 'Old World' squabble.

Also, the likeness of character and habits between Hitler and Churchill was spooky to read in separate books about each - if we use childhood as the raison d'être for their adult behavior many similarities - Hitler had a dotting mother, not Churchill but many school age stories are similar and both their adult lives are filled with obsessive behavior and similar outlooks on sex and women. I did not buy but read a few chapters offered on the kindle about the 5 days and then another book about the 80s days that they played cat and mouse with each other just before Pearl Harbor and Hitler succumbing to declare war on the US. Whew what a matched pair - that is when I wondered how much Churchill pushed war and how much Hitler escalated from controlling German lands to wanting World domination or was that desire within Hitler before Churchill's push towards war.  

Yes, I am curious about this man - beside my German heritage I look and realize there had to be something there - it took 3 major nations and other national resistance fighters three half years to bring this man to his end - Hollywood may like to depict him as a cartoon character but there is something there that may be worth looking at to see how national pride and economic success can be like a hammer that reminds me now of the fear that many of us have shared about China. Do we unwittingly see another hammer that we fear rather than understanding.

[HaroldArnold]

Yes Ella I see no reason not to close this discussion after tomorrow, August 30th though I suppose it will be Tuesday before the archive is complete.  I think this discussion has turned out to be one of our most interesting book discussion projects.  Thank you for your leadership.  And thank you all the dozen or more more participants who made the discussion a success.  

Ella and I look forward to seeing all of you again in another non.fiction project maybe early next year.

Harold 

[bellamarie]

JoanP," Do you consider yourself an isolationist as far as Syria is concerned?  There are many here in Washington who are. Afraid if we get involved, we won't get out.  Ella, I'm with you - hoping against hope  for world peace.   I think the book ended on that note, hopeful, though dubious."

At this point, I would consider myself an isolationist, where Syria is concerned.  I believe we must never begin an attack/war with anyone, unless we are in absolute danger on our soil, we have a clear plan, and a means to the end.  To even think we could hurry up, bomb a few airfields and then come home, and all is right with the world is insanity.  I feel there could be terror cells set up in the United States who are just waiting for a green light.  There is China and Russia threatening to get involved if we do attack. You have Iran saying they will attack Israel.  All for what?  Chemicals have been being used, the middle east have had civil unrest for centuries, if Assad is taken out of power (which is not a goal), you have the Muslim brotherhood and Al Quida ready to step into power.  There is no clear proof "who" actually is using the chemicals, is it Assad or is it the rebels?  I heard the House of Commons rejected the approval of the U.S. attacking Syria.  I just see no means to the end.  If indeed it is a humanitarian act, then why were we not doing anything when Egypt was slaughtering their people in the streets just a year ago, or when Libya killed our 4 Americans in Benghazi?  Why now?  It may sound inhumane to some, but I say keep our nose out of it, since they will fight for centuries more.

Ella, "HOPEFULLY, WE WILL NEVER SEE ANOTHER ONE LIKE IT, and I would hope we can discontinue all wars, have peace throughout the world.  Why cause each other, all mankind, such heartache!"

My exact sentiments and I could not have said it any better!  As for technology, I fear it is here to stay.

BarbStAubrey, I do hope your toes heal quickly and you are not in too much pain.  Til our next discussion, my pizan.

Ending the discussion tomorrow is a good idea, since the holiday week end is upon on.  Hope you all have a great 3 day week end.  I am looking forward to sleeping in past 5:45 a.m.

Ciao~

[bookad]

yes, I too would like to thank the discussion leaders....what I have learned thru the discussion and book, looking to other books I must delve into to find out questions now in my mind and unknowns.....so little time so many books ( one day in my life that really stands out for me is the day with the realization I could not possibly read all the books I'd love to read)....am presently re reading Stevenson's "Intrepid"...and intend to look up some of the books noted by people to do with the time period in this book in particular...why Japan pushed into China and the world's focus of Germany at that point people unaware of the Japanese threat {the world according to the west, I mean am sure the east was aware of Japan's manoeuvres }so many aspects of world war 2 to know about...much more interesting for me when I can find a group like this one who share perspectives and thoughts.

Next time hope to download my book onto my new Sony e-reader where I can highlight, underline, make notes to my heart's content and perhaps share more frequently
\You7 ...sorry my cat walked across my keyboard

All the best to all of you
have a nice labour day weekend
Deb

[Ella Gibbons]

THANK ALL OF YOU FOR YOUR INTEREST AND YOUR PARTICIPATION IN THIS DISCUSSION, IN THIS BOOK.  IT MAKES HISTORY SO INTERESTING TO DISCUSS IT WITH OTHERS; I RATHER THINK IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DULL TO READ THE BOOK ALONE.

WE WILL BE BACK WITH ANOTHER NONFICTION BOOK IN THE NEAR FUTURE.  THANKS FOR ALL YOUR SUGGESTIONS.

WE TAKE THEM ALL UNDER CONSIDERATION.

AGAIN, THANKS, THANKS, THANKS!  IT WAS FUN!

[Jonathan]

This has been a most interesting, provocative discussion. May we have many more like it, with Ella and Harold to lead them. Many thanks.

Bellamarie, I'm with you on your cautious approach to getting involved in the Syrian problem. What good will lobbing a few missiles into the country do? I can't understand the British PM's  eagerness to go in. But I see his backbenchers have made him change his mind. Was he showing what he believed solidarity with U.S. intentions? Reminds one of PM Blairs support of President Bush's going into Irag after 9/11. After what we have read in Those Angry Days one wonders if its in gratitude for the U.S. support in 1940.

Barb, I'm very impressed by where your researches have taken you and have made a note of the authors and books you mention. It seems to me you might be including the work John Lukacs has done on the strange duel between Churchill and Hilter in your conclusions. I have two of them, The Five Days in London, and The Duel, 10 May - 31 July: The Eighty-Day Struggle Between Churchill and Hitler.

I've got another for you, Deb. The True Intrepid, by Bill Macdonald, who wants to set the record straight.

My feeling after this book, is, What can one believe? See you early in the year.

[HaroldArnold]

Let me also suggest that we use our non fiction board to make non fiction discussion nominations. I'll see if I can check in there 3 or 4 times a week.  I suppose a biography of Hitler might be possible, but perhaps something by another author would be better.  Maybe Alfred Speer's, Inside the 3rd Reich"?