Lady with the Dog, The by Anton Chechov ~ Short Stories

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

Short Story Event - JUNE/JULY Book Club Online

It is said that a good short story should include: * a strong theme, * a fascinating plot, * a fitting structure, * unforgettable characters, * a well-chosen setting, * an appealing style.  Let's consider these elements as we discuss the following stories.  Is it necessary to include them all in a successful story?  
  

Notice that the titles are all links to the stories.

Discussion Schedule:
June 1 -June 9: *The Book of The Funny Smells--and Everything (1872) by Eleanor H Abbott *The Necklace or The Diamond Necklace (1880) -  by Guy de Maupassant
  *A Pair of Silk Stockings (1896) by Kate Chopin
June 10- 14: *Babylon Revisited (1931) by F.Scott Fitzgerald
June 15- 17: *First Confession (1939) by Frank O'Connor
June 18-20: *A Good Man Is Hard to Find (1953) by Flannery O'Connor  
June 21-24: *The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas (1973) by Ursula LeGuin
June 25-28: *The Half-skinned Steer (1997) by Annie Proulx
June 29-July 2 *The Bear Came Over the Mountain(1999) by Alice Munro
July 5 - July 8:  *The Lady with the Dog by Anton Chechov 1899
July 9 - July 13?:  *The Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman 1899

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The Lady with the Dog by Anton Chechov

Anton Chechov was a late 19th century Russian writer famous for his short stories and plays. "The Lady with the Dog," a tale of two lovers who carry on an affair while both married to other people, is one of his most famous  and best loved short stories.   It  is in many ways a typical Chechov tale, reflecting the style  of the author who breaks many of the rules of storytelling, particularly when it comes to plot and conclusion, never says more than he needs. He conveys emotional complexity in just a few words, thus preserving the intensity of his characters' feelings. Chechov wrote the "The Lady with the Dog" in 1899, five years before his death, while he was an invalid suffering from tuberculosis. He was laid up in the seaside town of Yalta, on the coast of the Black Sea, a setting that serves as the backdrop for the lovers' initial meeting in the story. Setting isn't the only  similarity to find its way from Chechov's life; many scholars argue that the relationship at the center of this story is a reflection of the author's own romance with the actress he would eventually marry in 1901. (Information gleaned from Wikipedia and various sources)

Topics for Consideration

July 5 - July 8

1. Can you understand men like Dmitri Gurov, a man who refers to women as "the lower race" and yet insists he can not get on two days together without their company? 2 What is it about women's company that draws him?  Why on earth are women drawn to men like this? 3. "Stories of immorality in Yalta are untrue."  What stories?   Why is Dmitri here? 4. Do you sympathize with the young woman, travelling alone with her little dog? What brings her to Yalta? Can you tell what  Gurov finds pathetic about her? 5. "Will you still love me tomorrow?"  How does Chechov answer this age-old question in the story? 6. Do you think that Anna and Dmitri regard one another as escape from their humdrum existence?  Will this change when they begin to actually see one another?  Or do you see theirs as true, lasting love?

DL Contact: JoanP

[JoanP]

Welcome!  Delighted you are continuing on with our examination of the development of the short story.   We've been noting how much has changed in story-writing over the  last century - and yet there are some things about human nature that don't seem to have changed much at all.  

What would a discussion of the short story be without considering those of Anton Chechov, considered by many to be one of the masters of the short story?  It will be interesting to hear how you react to his style as he flaunts the "rules" we've come to expect. He wrote this story in 1899 - and yet there are similarities to the men in Alice Munro's "Bear Came Over the Mountain."

"The Lady with the Dog" begins with the description of  a man who refers to women as "the lower race,"  and yet we are told he cannot get along without their company. I really don't understand this, except for the fact that he doesn't seem to be able to communicate with men either.

 Looking forward to an interesting discussion.

[BarbStAubrey]

Knowing of Anna Karenina, the situation seems so desperate and somehow Gurov did not seem as sleazy as Grant.

The story immerses us in nineteenth and early twentieth century values surrounding class, gender, the power of men compared to women's place and her expected virtue.

His wife knows of his escapades with other women and she is either resigned or holds her pain to herself. A secret life was more than Gurov's love lined box it seems to be a way of life for anyone who had feelings - their feelings were boxed beyond the sight of anyone.

[jane]

Question #1 asks if I understand men like Gurov. The answer, which also pertained to Grant, is no. 

It seems that here we have two people who are dissatisfied with every aspect of their lives.  There is so little to go on, but she comes across to me as a moody, self-centered, pouting child-like creature.  He's as moody and self-centered and has a great deal of male arrogance thrown into the mix.  Both are, to me, thoroughly dislikable characters who seem to have enough money on both sides to go off to a resort by themselves and then to travel back and forth between their cities.

jane

[BarbStAubrey]

Hmm I wonder Jane - you are making me think - do you think that is the theme of the story - dis-satisfaction with your choices in life and if your secret fantasy comes true you are unwilling to bring it into the open because your secret fantasy would not be approved of by society and you would also loose the security of the life you originally chose.

[JoanP]

"somehow Gurov did not seem as sleazy as Grant."

 That's interesting, Barbara.  Why not? Both married men - Dmitri actually has children, which Grant did not. Jane sees him as self-centered and arrogant.   He is probably like many (most rich  men) of this time - and you're right, the wives put up with it and looked the other way - self-preservation.

Barb - somewhere in this story, Dmitri ratinalizes that EVERYONE has a secret life, other than what appears on the surface.  Do you believe that?

Jane mentionned "moody" too.  In some ways he seems different from other men.  He can't seem able to communicate with others - with men or with women.  He's a loner.  With his conquests, he is capable of attracting, but unable to sustain a relationship - to communicate with them.  Don't tell Jane - but I think I'm beginning to feel sorry for him.  I guess that answers the question about why women are attracted to him.

[JoanP]

 He's bored.   He's a banker?  He seems to have met and conquered many women.  We're told the Yalta women or the women visiting Yalta  are "elderly ladies dressed like young ones."  So young Anna stands out as she sashays along with her little dog.  Young - and inexperienced?  Easy prey?

 

[BarbStAubrey]

Gurov wasn't a pimp where as Grant was pimping for his wife. Regardless his rational he was still acting the pimp which to me is sleazy - Gurov was wealthy and bored who found his fantasy lovelife while trolling for a sexual conquest - to me the center of this story is the secret kissing, meeting and finally the secret affair. I could more easily translate that into the secrets we all keep about some inner fantasy life that we never consider if it came true what it would mean. We simply have a yearning for something more or different and for Gurov something risque.

I think there are many affairs that start out as a fantasy titillation and then become more - then what to do - to act on your feelings can ruin a secure life and family who are also part of you - we hear often of guys having a mid-life crisis and going off with someone they picked up. In the aftermath they wound their wife and children - This story has Gurov and Anna not willing to do that.

I like Clint Black's definition of love is a verb where as Chechov writes this as love being a feeling. But then that may be the irony - they find the feeling and are caught beliveing in their obligation or maybe a commitment to love as a verb for their spouse and in the case of Gurov, his children.

[JeanneP]

It sounds like a interesting story.  I have never been able to read short stories .( except as a child). May try again.

[JoanP]

Jeanne, there is another Chechov short story - just right for bedtime.  Not quite as long as The Lady with the Dog...but a good example of Chechov's short stories -
An Upheaval  A good example of Chechov's approach to women - and men too.  Would love to hear what you thought of this one.  Again, CH. breaks rules...gives a slice of life, without providing the happily-ever-after ending..

Back to the LADY...what is she doing in Yalta?  Alone for a month?  Is she unescorted?  I thought she was a bit forward, pulling up a chair at Dmitri's table and introducing herself...  She says she's bored.  Are they both looking for diversion?

[salan]

I read the story and failed to see the point.  It has the same theme as many other stories and has the same unsatisfying outcome.  I stated at the beginning of this discussion that I did not like short stories; but was willing to try again.  Well, I still feel the same way.  They seem like thoughts thrown with not much beginning, no real development and abrupt endings.  Sigh.....to each his own, I guess. 

Sally

[JoanP]

An interesting observation, Sally.  There are those, like you, who need a resolution, an ending.  Did the two lovers end their marriages and live happily ever after - or not?  You require an answer to feel satisfied, is that right?

But I  sense that Chechov does have a point - and I think that is what we are after in the discussion of his stories.  They are pretty much all like this - a slice of life - with no answer provided, as life provides no immediate answers - but there are clues.

Young Anna is new to this flirting - keeps hounding him "will you still love me tomorrow?" Will you respect me?    Do you think Chechov answers that question with this story?

  She feels like a failed womnn - is smart enough to know that when she returns home, she will have to live with guilt...along with her unhappiness.  But Chechov didn't leave it there...  

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting - I just read a post over in the library written by CallieinOK - she bemoans her recent readying themes that are

centered around a woman who thinks she will never be loved - then becomes obsessed with the first man who does and never gets over him when he 1) dies or 2) leaves her, even though she goes on to marry and have children with at least one other man.

Made me think of Gurov rather than Anna. He is not only described as 'grey' - grey hair, grey suit but he does not want to be thought of by Anna as kind or lofty which are characteristics we think of when a 'grey' man is in a story. Gurov does not want to own thee characteristics - sounds like he is on the prowl for a love that opposite what Callie notices - not only is he a male versus a women but he did not have an obsessive first love to regret in his wife - the story makes it sound like he did not expect to fall in love with Anna and yet, he clearly is obsessed with her.

Anna is bored - a women in love is not described as bored - so she too is looking for a love that will be her obsession and yet, knows that an unfaithful woman is demeaned by society, her vows are broken that bind her in a marriage loveless or not and therefore her self-esteem is in jeopardy as she realizes she is breaking rules with no commitment by Gurov to catch her if she falls from social grace or her husband abandons her.

[jane]

RE:  "Will you still love me tomorrow?"

My opinion: NO.  He'll find you as needy and pathetic as both of you are, Anna!  

[I guess I don't see Anna as naive, so much as very, very needy, and very, very dissatisfied with her life. She, again, reminds me of a pouting 14 yr old who wants someone else to provide her happiness.  Hopefully Anna will soon learn that she is the only one who can make herself happy. It's not something someone else can simply hand her on a silver platter.

Gurov is apparently older, but has the same traits. He's dissatisfied with everything and everyone...blaming boredom, his wife, his various mistresses,  for all his dissatisfactions.  His arrogance and belief he's so much above the women around him and with him makes him a most dislikeable, shallow character. ]

[BarbStAubrey]

I wonder how much of this bored, searching for encounters with the opposite sex is an emblem of the times - Today we see many in the higher income bracket of the world playing this same game except today they simply are not married - their life appears to be parties and flirtations that end up as a hot couple of days or weeks.

Few women are celibate until marriage with more career women not married till they are in their 30s or at least their very late 20s - Sex In the City would not be written by Chechov - Anna as Carrie Bradshaw Preston sleeping with Big would not happen and yet, that is what Chechov appears to be saying - Anna and Gurov are hampered by social proprieties that do not give room for their feelings, desires, much less obsessive love interests.

I think the story is showing us the emotional turmoil for women who are obligated to be taken care of by first their father and immediately, with no break a husband.  Also she has to be married by her very early 20s or else she was labeled an old maid unworthy of marriage doomed to living with her father and becoming his nurse in his old age.

[PatH]

Gurov's affairs all seem to have the same pattern.  He's attracted while everything is new, then gets bored, and that's it.  This affair starts out that way, and I assumed it would run the same course.  At first it seems to, but then he finds himself obsessed with Anna Sergeyevna, seeks her out, resumes the affair, and starts thinking how they can make it permanent.  Is this for real?  I find it hard to believe.  But if it is really a reflection of Chechov's relationship with an actress he eventually married, maybe it is.  What's different about Anna?  We don't really get any clues.

[jane]

SIDE NOTE: Barbara...

Today we see many in the higher income bracket of the world playing this same game except today they simply are not married

 hahahaha...maybe in Austin, but in this little rural town of 5,000 they  are married, or at least when the various affairs start. Then one or the other divorces, thinking the affairee is going to marry him/her...and it doesn't work out that way.  They're in the dentist, construction owner, business owner "class"...so as "moneyed" a class as this little town has....except for the rich retired farmers, of course.  They don't seem to be involved in musical beds.

And now back to the short story....

Pat...I agree with you 100%. His are all the same pattern.  I, too, find it hard to believe this one will last.  Maybe here it's the "absence" that makes it more of a game or pursuit than a woman who lives close to him.  In the end, I suspect he'll continue his pattern.

[JoanP]

Gurov's affairs all seem to have the same pattern.  He's attracted while everything is new, then gets bored, and that's it.

 Is it any wonder that he becomes bored?  He has no idea how to communicate with a woman (or with a man.)  Anna seems to be different though - younger, perhaps. I saw the attraction as something different this time.

When she is called home - we're told Gurov feels remorse.  He had tried to communicate with this one - "he had tried to be affectionate."  Was he merely acting?   It seems to me that he was not so bored with their conversations, until she began to express her repeated concerns that he would no longer respect her.  No amount of reassurance would convince her.

When they separated - they both understood the short-lived affair was over...neither had any intention of staying in contact.  Gurov heads home to Moscow, Anna to S......   Do you have any idea why Chechov refrains from naming the town  where she lives throughout the story?  Dpes he have a reason for keeping this town or city from his reading public?  

[JoanK]

Marking

[marcie]

I'm finding this story ambiguous in lots of ways. I can see what some of you are saying about seeing an aging, self-centered womanizer and a naive, self-centered young woman meeting to relieve their boredom. I think those elements are there. But I think that Chekhov gives more to each of these characters. The root of their boredom seems to be a society that is restraining them. It sounds like they married their respective spouses because it was what was expected of them -- perhaps some type of arranged marriage. Both want something more, not just something different, in their lives.... something above the ordinary along the lines of culture, intelligence, ambition. Their coming together and then parting due to contraints of society and propriety seems to be a catalyst for them each to recognize that they have been fooling themselves (the young woman recognizes that her husband is a "loser" and she has no respect for him; Gurov sees that he's always presented a false self to everyone in the past).

At the end of the story it seems that they are more realistic about themselves. The ending is about a splendid new beginning for them but they realize that the beginning is a long, long road away. I see hope at the end but the hint that the full union they want might not happen; can't happen in their society and circumstances:

"They forgave each other for what they were ashamed of in their past, they forgave everything in thepresent, and felt that this love of theirs had changed them both. . . .

Then they spent a long while taking counsel together, talked of how to avoid the necessity for secrecy, for deception, for living in different towns and not seeing each other for long at a time. How could they be free from this intolerable bondage?

“How? How?” he asked, clutching his head. “How?”

And it seemed as though in a little while the solution would be found, and then a new and splendid life would begin; and it was clear to both of them that they had still a long, long road before them, and that the most complicated and difficult part of it was only just beginning."

[BarbStAubrey]

Aha Jane - different references about those married as compared to what I see here - a town filled with mostly techies who are making beau coup dollars and can be found starting up all sorts of businesses often from their accumulated wealth in the tech industry. Only in places like Round Rock and other suburban communities that now extend Austin do we see the un-satisfied married folks going through the pain of divorce affecting children - where as in Austin there are far more first time moms in their late 30s and early 40s - also, the suburban secret lovers are not rolling in big money. Which reminds me more of Anna's situation where as Gurov has acquired some wealth - maybe not huge but more than comfortable however, he is married - maybe he is in mid-life crisis...

Interesting how we all read into a story based on what we know and experience - my own daughter did not marry till she was 36 - had her first Baby at age 37 and her second days before she turned 40 where as my youngest married when he was 26 and Sally was 24 however they did not have their first till he was 31. Didn't the story say that Anna was 19?

I too see in the early part of the story Gurov not feeling anything towards Anna as if he looks at all her emotional reactions as a passing ordeal that he either ignores or he attempts to divert her attention - not til the very end of the story do we learn he really cares about her and he shares their predicament where both their feelings and their secret must be protected.

I still think the secret love is the climax of the story - keeping secrets runs through the story. We read how often they acted in secret - their stay and attraction for each other at Yalta is secret - he secretly kisses her - when on the stairs he risks being seen secretly kissing her - her ruse to keep their affair secret from her husband - without re-reading to find all the times a secret is mentioned, the only one who we are told is wise to part of his secrets is his wife.

There was a bio of Patrick Fiori, French singer in the original cast of Notre-Dame de Paris who carried on for several years a torrid love affair with Lara Fabian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCluMyyBeV8

They did not marry and she was devastated - she was so well loved his career went south for awhile - After he did marry another and had a child, regaining is audience as a top national singer he was on the TV show star à domicile, where he and other stars surprise people who have talent by showing up at their home, listening to them often arranging for them to appear on TV -

This Youtube of one of his surprises - the start is a bit long however, if you move the red line to 4 minutes into the story the surprise for this young wife emerges. Her husband arranged for the meeting and yet, she, having a secret crush on the singer when they do meet on the mountain top cannot talk to Patrick Fiori in front of her husband - if you go into the video about 11:30 minutes showing them in their home, when Patrick Fiori leaves, her husband attempts to show how delighted he is for her however, she cannot respond to him - suggesting we have secrets that if they come true present us a dilemma with our feelings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWqgeIq0GQQ

Here is the Youtube of another Patrick Fiori star à domicile - this time with a young piano student - the setup is short - just look at the faces of all the students and their moms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spTlvk6mMPY

[marcie]

Barbara, I think you're right that secrecy is at the heart of the story but why the secrecy? I think that along with the secrecy is the reason for it. It seems that they can't divorce their spouses or leave them. It doesn't seem that it was acceptable or possible in their situation. Their situation seems oppressive to both of them.

When Gurov tries to tell a friend about the woman he met in Yalta, all he gets is a response:

"You were right this evening: the sturgeon was a bit too
strong!”

The story goes on to say:
"These words, so ordinary, for some reason moved Gurov
to indignation, and struck him as degrading and unclean.
What savage manners, what people! What senseless nights,
what uninteresting, uneventful days! The rage for card-play-
ing, the gluttony, the drunkenness, the continual talk al-
ways about the same thing. Useless pursuits and conversa-
tions always about the same things absorb the better part of
one’s time, the better part of one’s strength, and in the end
there is left a life grovelling and curtailed, worthless and
trivial, and there is no escaping or getting away from it—
just as though one were in a madhouse or a prison."

The "boredom" that both Gurov and the young woman feel with life seems to be more than a superficial restlessness. The lives that they are leading apart from each other seem worthless and trivial, with no escape.

It's a short story, only a brief glimpse into the lives of these two people but it seems very realistic in an odd way.  The narrator gives us a lot of information without putting himself/herself into the story....without judging the actions. It would seem that the story might feel more "objective" but I find a lot of emotion conveyed. I'm left thinking that it's worth my time thinking what happens to these two people. I know that some of you might disagree.

[BarbStAubrey]

The seem to be twenty-first century people living at the end of the nineteenth century - they appear to be hanging on to each other in a dream and in the dream they could be free to acknowledge their needs and wants and feelings without the constraints of abiding by the socially acceptable that can only lead to half lives, caged at that.

Vaguley I remember reading a story where a couple meets year after year each summer for two weeks in an English coastal village. I am trying to remember but something maybe one of them dies and therefore does not show up - wish I could remember but I do remember they were old people and they never left there spouses but continued their love affair into old age having told each other of the graduations and marriages of their children.

[JoanP]

I don't remember reading the book, but do remember the Alan Alda film, Barbara - "Same Time Next Year"   There was no angst - both were happily married, but  looked forward to "catching up" and talking things over in the same idyllic vacation spot where they had been meeting for twenty five years.  I can't remember how it ended, can you? But it was a happy twenty five years for the couple...both at home with respective spouses and when together.

Marcie describes Anna and Dmitri's situation as something much more believable to me...they can't divorce their spouses - not acceptable at the time but desire is such that they look forward to these secret trysts. The trysts are necessary to survive what goes on in their everyday lives. 
The lives each lead away from one another are not happy. Anna is a young woman - won't she want children?  Doesn't Chekhov describe her life in S... a prison - that "fence with nails" surrounding her home - I can't imagine what that looks like, but the symbolism of that fence comes across loud and clear.

His situation in Moscow isn't much better...unhappy with his career as a banker, little or no communication with his unhappy wife...and what struck me the most - he's "sick of his children!" 

[JoanP]

 The narrator gives us a lot of information without putting himself/herself into the story.... Marcie

I immediately thought of PatH's remark a few days ago, regarding Chechov's own infatuation with a young actress he meets on holiday - in Yalta.  His character, Dmitri Gurov exhibits the same hopeful belief  they will be happy evermore.

Do you think that Anna and Dmitri regard one another as escape from their humdrum existence - and that in time, if not sooner, they will necessarily exhiibit the same disillusionment with one another?

[marcie]

Joan, regarding whether they will stay together, I see ambiguity again. Is there a hint that the union won't last in the following paragraph on page 19? Or not?

"It was evident to him that this love of theirs would not
soon be over, that he could not see the end of it. Anna
Sergeyevna grew more and more attached to him. She adored
him, and it was unthinkable to say to her that it was bound
to have an end some day; besides, she would not have be-
lieved it."

Isn't that an interesting sentence? "it was unthinkable to say to her that it was bound to have an end some day; besides, she would not have believed it."
Checkov puts two thoughts out there in a way that denies what you think he is saying...  Is the affair bound to have an end some day or is it unthinkable that it will have an end?

It seems like Checkhov is trying to be true to the slice of life he's showing. The "couple," and we, simply don't know what the future will bring.

They both are hopeful in the end. He loves her --the first time he has truly loved a woman-- and she adores him, though he is no longer the young, handsome man who other women had found attractive.

[JoanP]

Let's keep this discussion open for last minute thoughts, or  for those coming into the discussion for the first time.  What strikes me is the different ways we understand Chechov -  - or maybe better to say, Chechov's characters. Can we separate them from the author himself?
I'm remembering the short stories we've read to this point - and how nearly autobiographical most of them were?  Though it doesn't necessarily have to be, there are striking parallels to Chechov's life and what we read of Dmitri Gurov in this story.

Chechov lived in Yalta...here's his home in 1898 - he lived here when he wrote about "the Lady and the Dog."

Here's an interesting article from the Guardian with observations on Chechov's love life - I'm sure you'll see similarities, and perhaps some explanations...

"Chekhov, it turns out, had a great many affairs, some enduring several years, and most of the women involved with him for any length of time wanted to marry him.The picture that emerges is of a man who, over the course of a couple of decades, enjoyed at least two-dozen love affairs of varying intensity – some extremely passionate, some casual, some lasting many years, and some that were clearly going on simultaneously

 Does it mean that we see Chekhov as a kind of literary Don Juan – or is it, more interestingly, a reflection of the relaxed sexual mores that prevailed in middle-class intellectual circles in the last decades of the 19th century in Russia? By 1898 Chekhov's health was seriously impaired by his tuberculosis, and he had only six more years of life left; he died at the early age of 44.

Chekhov loved women and their company – and he clearly loved making love to them, as the number of his sexual liaisons demonstrates – but in all his relationships he began to cool and draw away, just as they were reaching a point of amatory heat that implied something more lasting and intense.

 But there is another reason that might explain both Chekhov's emotional appetite and his stubborn refusal to make that final commitment to another person. Chekhov was a doctor; he had his first major lung haemorrhage in 1884 so he knew what was wrong with him. Many members of his family and friends had died of tuberculosis, so there could be little uncertainty about the fate that awaited him also. Under such circumstances, knowing that his life would be short, perhaps Chekhov felt it was more honest not to encourage ideas of a lasting union. And yet, he did get married at the end of his life – to Olga Knipper. It was not a particularly happy marriage – they spent huge tracts of time apart: Olga stuck with him and was present at his death."

 Source:   http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2013/mar/01/anton-chekhov-lifetime-lovers-play

[JoanP]

Marcie, I see Dmitri in love for the first time in his life...as you do.    So much  in love that he commits, though there is the ambiguous remark you've quoted... He wants their love to last, though he can't reassure Anna that it will.  At the same time, he can't bring himself to express these doubts to her.  More problems with communication?  Is he afraid he'll lose her if he appears less than confident?

Anna is the one who interests me.  He is easier to understand.  If "relaxed sexual mores  prevailed in middle-class intellectual circles in the last decades of the 19th century in Russia" - does that apply for women too?  I can't imagine what kind of life she lives  in S... when with her husband.  We're not told that.  She doesn't seem concerned with what society thinks...though she did shoo him away when he was so bold as to come to see her there.  Maybe as long as the affair is secret, it can work.  But she expresses deeper concerns about her  self-respect, her honor.  I

I remember this Lovelace quote drummed into our heads Senior year in high school (all girls)  - it stayed with me for the rest of my life -

"I could not love thee, dear, so much, loved I not honor more."  

 

 How long can Anna this dual existence?  Perhaps the implication is there in the story - he's an older man - she will probably outlive him - and can then go back to live full-time with her husband?  

[BarbStAubrey]

ahh but the question to me is 'can she ever go back' - there is that old story - the unchained tiger may sit next to his opened cage however the further the tiger roams from his cage the less likely the tiger will return.

Today, young women in huge numbers have disconnected their sex life from a lifetime commitment to their sex partner. Honored after free sex is no longer an issue and hasn't been for most western women in the last 25 or more years. It appears Anna's character was pushing the envelope that foretold the social norm 70 or 80 years before its time.

[Ella Gibbons]

JOANp, I just finished reading the story, sorry I have not been here for this and a couple of the others. 

Dmistri is married to a woman he does not love or respect; she is narrow-minded, ineegant, etc.   But he has two daughters I believe and apparently will remain married - I have no idea what ideas of divorce were at the time. 

I agree he is love for the first time and cannot understand why the thought of Anna lingers on.  She is just as foolish; however, with her she is feeling guilty about their affair, worried, crying. 

Women, in my opinion, are more emotional than men, worry more, etc.

I don't believe Dmitri is as worried about the affair, but I just read the story once; I would have to read it again to verify my first opinion and I have other things to do.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ha we try to imagine divorce laws and a women in society in this story written before this newspaper article that I found that in comparison is benign.

Mrs. William P. Orr was riding in a car on Fifth Avenue in New York City in 1904 when she lit up a cigarette. A policeman on a bicycle ordered her to put it out. "You can't do that on Fifth Avenue while I'm patrolling here," he told her.

Until the late 1920s, a woman who smoked in public was not only considered vulgar, she risked a warning from the police. In 1922, a New York alderman, Peter McGuinness, proposed a city ordinance that would prohibit women from smoking in hotels, restaurants or other public places.

"Young fellows go into our restaurants to find women folks sucking cigarettes," the alderman argued. "What happens? The young fellows lose all respect for the women, and the next thing you know the young fellows, vampired by these smoking women, desert their homes, their wives and children, rob their employers and even commit murder so that they can get money to lavish on these smoking women."

A Washington Post editorial in 1914 declared, "A man may take out a woman who smokes for a good time, but he won't marry her, and if he does, he won't stay married."

So the virtue of a women is as the Loralie??"!!?? would a male reader of The Lady with the Dog see their affair as her enticing him I wonder?

[BarbStAubrey]

OH god get this - I cannot stop laughing - it may as well have be written yesterday -

Some men who disapproved of women smoking thought it might be the lesser of two evils. "If it were a question between their smoking and their voting, and they would promise to stay at home and smoke," Sen. Joseph Bailey of Texas said in 1918, "I would say let them smoke."

[JoanP]

Barb, don't you get the feeling that Anna is a "lady,  a well- brought up young lady?  If she can't go home again, what will become of her if  things don't  work out with Dmitri?  He must be aware of her precarious position.  
Do you think she could pull it off - living at home in S... with her husband for much of the year and then short visits to be with Dmitri when she could?

You ask if a male reader would  think Anna had enticed Dmitri.  Would a Russian lady do something like this at this time?  I don't know how liberated Russian women were at  this time.  I will say that I was surprised that Anna was on her own in Yalta...and that she had initiated the conversation the first morning in the cafe.

[JoanP]

Ella!  So glad to hear from you!  How did you tame your unruly computer?  We look forward to your first impressions after reading the story for the first time. 

Dmitri is said to be unhappy with his life in Moscow- he is even "sick of his children!"  That erevelation shocked me. Don't know what the divorce situation was in Russia at this time either - but Dmitri was a prominent businessman in Russia, a banker, wasn't he? His name and reputation seem to be important to him.  Divorcing his wife - leaving his family - out of the question.  His numerous affairs seem to be accepted by his business acquaintances...and overlooked by his wife too, rather than upset the financial arrangements.

I 'll see what I can find about divorce in Russia at this time.  There's got to be a reason Chechov doesn't mention it if  it is an option.

[BarbStAubrey]

don't you get the feeling that Anna is a "lady,  a well- brought up young lady?  If she can't go home again, what will become of her if  things don't  work out with Dmitri?

That is why when I read her dilemma I sew the shadow of Anna Karenina

[JoanP]

Good segue to Karenina, Barb.  Now we get to the divorce laws in Russia at the end of the 19th century:

"Divorces in Russia during the late nineteenth century were quite rare, and for good reason.  The restrictions placed on divorce were very stringent.  The Orthodox Church, through its governing body, the Holy Synod, had complete control over marriage and divorce.  The Orthodox Church viewed marriage as an indissoluble sacrament, and therefore was extremely resistant to granting any types of divorce."

http://pirate.shu.edu/~knightna/karenina/abstracts/budesheim.htm

Some divorces were granted under certain circumstances...see the above article.  However- the article concludes-

"The Orthodox Church had such limited possibilities for divorce and such rigorous examinations of the evidence that divorce was extremely rare in imperial Russia.  The proceedings were often so complex that only the wealthy could afford to dedicate the time and energy towards receiving the divorce."

[marcie]

Thanks a lot, JoanP, for the articles about Checkhov's life and about divorce in 19th C Russia. They both provide helpful background for reading the story.

Barbara, those articles on women and smoking are priceless. They made me laugh at their ridiculousness and made me mad too that some people (in this case, women) are treated as inferior.

[PatH]

So it looks like Gurov had no hope of marrying Anna.  He could continue as they are, or could try to set up an establishment for her, where they could see each other frequently.  Neither seems too satisfactory.

I don't have a good feel for what attracts him to her.  She has beauty, but we don't really see how they interact, what they talk about (except how guilty she feels).  Whereas with Grant and Fiona, I could see how they interacted, and what he saw in her.

[marcie]

You are right that we don't get a lot of details about Anna. I felt a connection between them but her "who" is vague for me. She's the "lady with the dog."

We can still talk more about this story but we're also now discussing our next short story about another woman. This one is described in quite a lot of detail, at least her inner life is. It's an interesting, mysterious story, The Yellow Wallpaper, at http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=167.0

[JoanP]

These two stories have quite a bit in common, don't they?  Both written at the turn of the century, both featuring young ladies who don't seem to have control of their lives.  The authors don't seem to be offering much hope - or advice to them - everything depends on the men.

We're reading their stories through 21st century eyes and sensibilities.  I wish I knew how the women who read these stories  reacted to them.  They probably recognized their position - but did they react with outrage and maybe even a  determination to do something about  unfairness.  I found this quote from another of Ms. Gilman's works -it illustrates an awareness of women's dependence.

Does the fact that Chechov is a male make men his focus...and leave Anna pretty much in the background?  I think we've done a good job here of showing how precarious her situation was.  Thank you for sharing your insights and reactions.  Still wonder  how women of the 1900s reacted?

We'll stay open for those just arriving - and hope you will join us soon in The Yellow Wallpaper discussion!