Author Topic: Charles & The Night We All Had the Grippe by Shirley Jackson ~ Short Stories  (Read 21209 times)

JoanP

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The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

Short Story Event - JUNE/JULY Book Club Online



It is said that a good short story should include: * a strong theme, * a fascinating plot, * a fitting structure, * unforgettable characters, * a well-chosen setting, * an appealing style.  Let's consider these elements as we discuss the following stories.  Is it necessary to include them all in a successful story?
 

  
Notice that the titles are all links to the stories.

Discussion Schedule:
June 1 -June 9: *The Book of The Funny Smells--and Everything (1872) by Eleanor H Abbott *The Necklace or The Diamond Necklace (1880) -  by Guy de Maupassant
  *A Pair of Silk Stockings (1896) by Kate Chopin
June 10- 14: *Babylon Revisited (1931) by F.Scott Fitzgerald
June 15- 17: *First Confession (1939) by Frank O'Connor
June 18-20: *A Good Man Is Hard to Find (1953) by Flannery O'Connor  
June 21-24: *The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas (1973) by Ursula LeGuin
June 25-28: *The Half-skinned Steer (1997) by Annie Proulx
June 29-July 2 *The Bear Came Over the Mountain(1999) by Alice Munro
July 5 - July 8:  *The Lady with the Dog by Anton Chechov 1899
July 9 - July 13?:  *The Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman 1890
July 14 - July 17:  *Chip Off the Old Block by Wallace Stegner1890
July 18 - July 21: *Charles &  *The Night We All Had Grippe by Shirley Jackson 1949,1952
 
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Shirley Jackson (1916-1965) is not generally associated with humor. She is best known for  her gruesome short story, The Lottery.  When "The Lottery" was published in the June 26, 1948, issue of The New Yorker, it received  an outpouring of reactions and questions.  What did it mean?  In Come along With Me,  Joyce Carol Oates presents a collection of Jackson's novels and stories that, from the early 1940s through the mid-1960s, "wittily remade the genre of psychological horror for an alienated, postwar America."

Most of us cannot imagine Shirley Jackson as a humorist after having read "the Lottery." That same year she turned to humorous tales of family life - and  published “Charles,” the hilarious sketch that launched Jackson’s secondary career as a domestic humorist. Was this a response, a reaction to the reception "The Lottery" had received?  Four years later in 1952 she wrote the humorous, quite autobiographical "The Night We all had the Grippe."

Shirley Jackson died in 1965 at the age of 48, leaving the children we have come to know in these stories. Shirley Jackson's Obituary
Let's consider these two humorous short stories -  first "Charles" and then "The Grippe Mystery" and see if we can detect any of the qualities Jackson exhibited in "The Lottery" that indicate these stories were written by the same author!
 

Topics for Consideration

July 18 - July 21
1. Had you read "The Lottery" before?   What do you remember about it most?

2. Do you think Shirley Jackson must have shocked her readers with "Charles" published immediately after  "The Lottery?"  Did you enjoy her sense of humor in this story? How would you describe it?

3.   Are parents the last to realize their offspring's shortcomings?

4.  Do you think there's a reason Jackson exaggerates the bad behaviour, (really bad behaviour) for the sake of telling the tale - or did the boy really have such a difficult time adjusting to school?  Did he act out, just to get his parents attention and then keep escalating the bad behaviour when he wasn't getting it?
 
6. Do you think Laurie's behaviour and his lack of respect ought to have been taken more seriously by his parents?

7. When did we stop calling flu "grippe?"  Are there other indications that this story was written in the 50"s?

8. Do you see any similar elements in "The Lottery" as you find in "Charles" and "The Grippe Mystery"?

DL Contact: JoanP

JoanP

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Good morning!  Hot enough for you?  Isn't this heat enough to keep you inside with a good book - or short story?

Today we'll consider the first of two of Shirley Jackson's short stories - "Charles," which caused quite a sensation when first published - for the simple reason that it followed "The Lottery."  Have you read it?  Do you want to?  This is the story Ms. Jackson is remembered for, though she wrote many of these homey  stories we will be considering for the next few days.  If you haven't read The Lottery and wish to, the title here is a a link.  But be forewarned, it's a downer.

I'm curious to know what you think of "Charles" and the author's sense of humor.  I read a funny comment while searching around for public reaction at the time of publication.

Quote
"When Gregory Cowles, a staff editor for The New York Times Book Review, first heard about the story a few years back, he admitted to surprise:

“Shirley Jackson?” I said. “The author of ‘The Lottery’?”

The very one. . . . For those of us accustomed to her position as Important Anthologized Story Writer, it’s a bizarre transformation, like learning that Chekhov had a second career writing jokes for Johnny Carson."

Later!


jane

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I can just see Laurie aka Charles looking like the perfect little angel to his folks.  I think all the readers soon pick up on the possibility of the identity of Charles after some of the description of Laurie's mouth and behaviors at home.  I'm sure any K teacher knew from about the second paragraph on...:)

jane

JudeS

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Never read either of these stories before.

The Lottery reminded me  of the Taliban stoning "bad women" and doing it with glee.
It is also like a horror movie as well.
I wonder what she was really trying to say in this story?

The story about the family with the grippe was so very clever and enjoyable.
I will look for other material by this, for me, unknown author.

JoanP

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A great question, Jude!  What was Jackson really trying to say in "The Lottery?"   You really have to read it twice in order to pick up on the ordinary day, the ordinary people who gathered for the lottery each year.  Once you've been shocked at the ending, you have to reread to understand how she lulled you unexpectedly to the ending.

I read that the New Yorker had never dealt with such an avalanche of mail following the publication of the story, asking that very question.  A month after the initial publication, Shirley Jackson responded in the San Francisco Chronicle (July 22, 1948):
 
Quote
"Explaining just what I had hoped the story to say is very difficult. I suppose, I hoped, by setting a particularly brutal ancient rite in the present and in my own village to shock the story's readers with a graphic dramatization of the pointless violence and general inhumanity in their own lives."

I also read that it is important to note WHEN the story was written - 1948, following WWII as the knowledge of the Nazi death camps became widely known. " In conformity and the actions of the townspeople we see a reflection of the actions of Hitler’s Nazis." https://bu.digication.com/WR100J1_CarmenYeung/Conformity_in_Shirley_Jackson_s_The_Lottery_Final_

The lottery in the story was seen as being of little importance and the fact that it was very real, people who were dying was almost ignored by the villagers.  Conformity is expected and even demanded by the elders who rule the village.

Many who read the Lottery were hesitant to read the following short stories.  But as you can see, there was nothing to fear.

JoanP

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Did you get a chance to read "Charles" - the little story that was published after The Lottery?  I cannot begin to imagine how the story was received!  How soon did you pick up on the real identity of Charles, Jane?

Quote
"I'm sure any K teacher knew from about the second paragraph..."
 What struck me funny was how long - two months?  before his parents realized that the "little angel" was their own.  Did this ring true to you?  Are parents the last to realize their offspring's shortcomings?  Were you one such parent?  Be honest... :D


PatH

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I'm sure parents, myself included, are slow to pick up on their children's shortcomings, but I wouldn't think anybody would fall for "everyone stayed with Charles when he had to stay after school".

I got the point almost at once, but that didn't spoil the story for me.

jane

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I'm not a parent, so I can't respond to that. However, I taught in a high school for over 30 years.  The parents of the polite, mannerly kids were always asking, at Parent Conferences, if their children were "behaving."  Other parents only saw their children as absolutely without any possible deviation from the path of perfection.  Life was not easy for those kids.

With Laurie, my suspicions were aroused when the rude mouth appeared (the "joke" about his father being dumb and then "laughing insanely") and mother and father ignored it and his behaviors.

JoanP

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Laurie is the first of Shirley Jackson's children, I think.  Three of her four children appear in The Night We All Had the Grippe.  First-borns first days at school are unsettling times for parents - this from experience with four sons.  First born had the most difficult time - and he was probably the best behaved of the four! 
But the story opens with the explanation that Laurie has been to pre-school.  Funny that this behaviour didn't come to his parents' attention then.  They seem totally in the dark regarding the identity of Charles. 

I thought that the boy was making this stuff up about an imaginary playmate, didn't you?  Even before we're told the whole class stayed after school, PatH I thought hitting the teacher and causing the girl's head to bleed with the see-saw were things that the parents should have been told about immediately - don't you?  The teacher spanked him for hitting her.   I thought for sure he was making this  up when I read that.  Actually, it was 1948.  I can remember getting slapped by a teacher in Kindergarten at this time, so maybe it wasn't so unusual.
 
Quote
"With Laurie, my suspicions were aroused when the rude mouth appeared (the "joke" about his father being dumb and then "laughing insanely"

I thought these were signals that the boy was trying to adjust to his new school, Jane - and thought maybe his parents had decided to give him space and let him adjust by overlooking some of the new behaviour.
These are Shirley Jackson's own children she's writing about - do you think there's a reason she exaggerates the bad behaviour, (really bad behaviour) for the sake of telling the tale - or did the boy really have such a difficult time adjusting to school?  Did he act out, just to get his parents attention and then keep escalating the bad behaviour when he wasn't getting it?

pedln

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JoanP, I think your getting slapped by a teacher in Kindergarten is unusual. I taught kindergarten in the late '50's for a few years  and also in the early 70's and I can't imagine any teacher, even then, slapping a child.

I thought Laurie was making it up, that he may have had some upsets in the classroom and was thinking of things he'd liked to do.  It didn't take long to figure out there was no Charles. Further, I can't imagine, if these things really happened, that the teacher would not have made contact with the parents.

JudeS

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The story "Charles" was also well written and, for those years, simply wonderful!
This is the story of a well loved  first born child testing the limits of a new envirement . He is trying to find out where he fits in and which behavior , the good or the bad, will provide the most rewards.
 His parents who allowed this and let him figure out his own way to correct behavior and "what works" won't have to suffer when he is  15  since they taught him, albeit by naivety, that," you'll be OK kid" when he was in Kindergarten.

The parents were perhaps so naïve because this was their first born and they couldn't imagine him behaving as Charlie did.
 Instead of being "saved" by parental intervention, Laurie matured by finding his own way to acceptable behavior.


ANNIE

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"Charles" is really too much! :D :D  Laurie's descriptions were over the top and as a parent of two totally different children entering school in the '60's, I think that I would have wanted the teacher to call us after the first couple of weeks of such behavior.  Would I have caught on if they play-acted this way??  Hmmmmm, maybe not.  

I remember going to my first PTA night and being told what a perfectly nice young man my son was in first grade and asking the teacher how she accomplished this miracle as my son was a holy terror at home.  She said better he act wild at home and not at school. Well, maybe she was right but I was the one who was having a nervous breakdown dealing with him. ::) ::)

Back to the story!  I liked the way it was written but felt the author may have exaggerated a bit too much with Charles behavior.  I think most any parent reading it would have guessed the ending by the second paragraph.  I am curious as to why he had been such a sweet little pre-schooler and how with long pants and a sneer, he changed so radically.  He was scared to death of entering a new atmosphere?  Did they go to school with him earlier in the summer to help him familiarize himself with the school itself?  Was that something that was done in schools in the '40's?
  I remember my mother and I being in the school before fall classes started, and meeting the first grade teachers and wandering around their class rooms.  I can even remember hoping I would get a certain teacher which I did.  :)

How soon do you think Jackson submitted the "The Grippe" story after "Charles"?  Were readers curious to see what she would offer after "Charles"?  Sort of reminds me of Erma Bombeck's columns. 

JoanP, is the book above "Come Along With Me" still available?

"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

salan

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I figured it out from the first.  I can't imagine such behavior not  being reported to the parents right away.  That is why I thought that Charles actions were greatly exaggerated.  I think Laurie was telling his parents to test their reactions.  Perhaps he thought of behaving in such a way & wondered what his punishment would be.  He was wondering how much he could get away with.
Sally

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What a riot - haha Charles - that is a good one - I thought the father had caught on till the end but then he could have - I think he knew his son was boasting, making up stories and that the real Laurie was only telling stories about what he was thinking while trying to figure out how to be grown up with no clue how to be a grown up child, so that being tough and rough was at least not being nammy pammy - he had to also get some attention since the new baby was getting the attention and so how better than being the bad one. Notice he wants the attention of his father and so the bit about looking up that may or may-not have happened in reality but may have been Laurie's thinking - I see the whole thing as a young boys imagination played out -

I remember coming home in first grade during a severe storm and my mother greeted me saying how worried she was and fussing - my 3 year old sister was napping and had just woken and by gum I was not going to show I was scared or the wind was so fierce I thought it would blow me away - I just looked at  my Mom sorta annoyed with all the fuss and said I was fine. Why was she worried there was nothing to it. I was all of 5 and a 1/2. I did a lot of daydreaming in class - it was not cool to be a bad one if you were a girls and so I was forever fighting pirates and sailing on a square rigger and we would overwhelm the captain. So it was easy for me to read this as a child's imagination said aloud to his parents.

Oh I do not doubt that Laurie had an accident in the school yard and I bet he was worried about having to stand in the corner more than it really happened and he wished he kicked the physical ed teacher in the shins or said the bad word in class that he finally after telling his father and seeing his reaction said outloud at home. I got the impression the father took it all in stride knowing his son was working things out - they did not live in an area of town where there were really bad kids and kids were given a greater leeway to experiment. The concept of naming klutzy things that happened at home for Charles was brilliant.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Pedln, I remember very little about Kindergarten - except how scared I was on the school bus with the big kids - and the time my teacher slapped me on the thigh for not paying attention when she called my name as we stood on line waiting for the school bus. (I guess I was a daydreamer too, Barb.)  I remember staring at the red welt of her handprint in tears as I rode home from school.  I don't think I told anyone when I got home - felt I had done something really bad.

So, how much of this really happened in Laurie's Kindergarten class?  As a group, we seem to think that something happened in school - but not all of it.  And we seem to think that Laurie made up some of it to get a parental reaction -

I just went back and reread exactly what the teacher told Mom  At the teacher conference aside from the fact that there was no one named Charles in the class-

Quote
“We had a little trouble adjusting, the first week or so,” she said primly, “but now he’s a fine little helper. With occasional lapses, of course.”

If he'd hit her, or hurt other children, surely she would have brought this up at the conference, don't you think?  Or would she have left it out because he 'd improved so much since?  I agree, Sally - some of that behaviour would have been reported right away - even back in the 40's!

Annie likens Shirley Jackson to Erma Bombeck.  How like an author to exaggerate a bit for the sake of humor.

JoanP

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It's fun to read these stories - set at the time we were growing up, isn't it?  "Charles" was written in 1948 - "The Grippe Mystery," in 1952.  
Annie, I would think Jackson's readers were more interested in this story that followed "The Lottery" than they were in what followed "Charles."  By the time Grippe was published, readers could relax and not expect the jolt that came at the end of The Lottery.
 
Yes, you can purchase the collection that is pictured in the header  - at Amazon - edited by Joyce Carol Oates. The title "Come Along with Me" is from the novel Jackson was writing when she died...she only wrote 27 pages, but it is included in this collection  There are used copies available too.  

 The protagonist is a thoroughly Jacksonian character, sometimes spontaneous and sometimes nostalgic, making a new life for herself in her own peculiar way. Her attempts at shoplifting are particularly telling of her character, but unfortunately her story ends at just about that point. The other stories included here are a special treat. While "The Lottery" is included (just in case someone may not be familiar with it, as Jackson's husband tells us in his preface), the other stories are poignant looks into the lives of rather ordinary people.

Here's the link to Amazon:  http://www.amazon.com/Come-Along-Me-Shirley-Jackson/dp/0140250379

ginny

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I'm so glad you're reading this story, and the other one by Shirley Jackson. I love Shirley Jackson and have all of her books.

This story is quite famous, I think we've all heard a version of it, the child reports a terror at school and the parents find out at the teacher's meeting the terror is their own child. hahahaha  I love the way Jackson paints the parents here, righteous and concerned.


I laughed out loud even all these years later at the anxious parent identifying herself as Laurie's mother, and the teacher's careful remark: "We're all so interested in Laurie."

hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa   Having been there on both sides I can totally relate. I really can.

I loved the parents wanting to get a look at Charles's mother!! hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa and the parent wanting to side with the teacher in it must be difficult to have a Charles in the class.  She's captured being a parent of the oldest child so well here.

I think the clue to Laurie's change in  behavior is buried in the casual remark about "the baby was being a 'Charles' when she cried all afternoon."

When my oldest went to Kindergarten my youngest had just been born, they are 5 years apart. The perfect angelic golden boy my oldest was  became an absolute terror in the Kindergarten class.  But that was 1972 and the phone rang constantly. I can still hear the teachers to this day in my mind. In fact I had to tell one harassed Kindergarten teacher who called to say he had thrown all the crayons on the floor!!! that she should  make him pick them UP ! For Pete's sake.  Or  I would come and make him do it  if she could or would not.  She seemed to think I could rectify  it over the phone.

Obviously the "teachers"  had not had any Early Childhood Education classes.

As far as physical punishment,  students could be spanked by permission by the principal where I taught in South Carolina  as late as the Vietnam War, in the early '60's.  Some parents wanted them spanked. There was a form you could fill out. I remember in high school in New Jersey also (my own classes) they had "paddles."

 And in Pennsylvania in 1948 I was also in Kindergarten and three years later, Pearson's experience was the rule in our little school, where one 3rd grade monster would end the day by  doing the times tables. She'd wait till after the bell rang to go home, and walk down the rows, slapping each child's hands which were folded on their desks  with a ruler if they missed their answer/  turn at the times tables.  My father went to see her when he heard about this, and she never hit me, but she found other ways.  She would hold my crafts or art up to the class and ridicule me and much worse.  She told me once in front of the class I would never be able to do anything with my hands (like crafts, art, etc.) and she was right, actually, I never have been able to do anything with my hands.   She also  did slap and hit many children in my presence, and worse, you would be shocked to know the extent. Truly unbelievable. I don't  know if she returned the next  year or not.   She had tenure, I do remember that being said.  I do recall something about a Board meeting at the end of the year,  and a lot of protest but I don't know how it ended.

So yes there was physical punishment in our American schools in the '40's and '50's and, with parental permission, paddling in the  '60's.  I hope Miss Thomas has gone to her reward, and that it was a just one;  there were far too many of her out there.

But to return to a happier subject: Shirley Jackson wrote two books on life with her children, Life Among the Savages and Raising Demons, and they are absolutely delightful, they out Bombeck Erma Bombeck, they are marvelous, laugh out loud joys, and when you read them you feel a real connection with her. I truly believe this is the way she saw her life, centered on the children, but you have to read the biographies of her life to find out what her husband was really  like. Perhaps he had good moments? Perhaps she wanted him to seem this way? Nobody knows but the children.

I'm so glad you included her in this series. Somewhere I have Stephen King's book On Writing and he thinks she was  one of the greatest writers ever.

pedln

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Wow, Ginny, I hope 4th grade was a big improvement!!

I loved the story of the Grippe, more so than Charles, it was more realistic and I could certainly relate to it.  Musical beds. My youngest was a climbing baby and I can remember a period when we had to leave a mattress on the floor between her crib and her sister's bed. Those ceramic floors in PUerto Rico were very hard.

JoanP

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Quote
"You have to read the biographies of her life to find out what her husband was really  like. Perhaps he had good moments? Perhaps she wanted him to seem this way? Nobody knows but the children."

Ginny - what do you know about S. Jackson's husband?  He makes an appearance in both of these stories - I didn't see really "bad moments" in either of these two stories, but maybe missing something.  I hesitate to bring to your attention this article about "Charles" as we are enjoying our own memories and the story is such fun to read.

 This article suggests there may be something pathologically wrong with Laurie.  You don't want to hear that, I know.  But the author makes a point.  I guess I still haven't forgotten "The Lottery" and the rather detachedl way Jackson approached that long-held tradition of that community.  I hope Jude is around to comment about this.  The entire article is here in this link -

THE DISTURBED PSYCHOLOGICAL STATES OF THE PROTAGONISTS IN THE STORIES CHARLES BY SHIRLEY JACKSON AND LAMB TO SLAUGTHER BY ROALD DAHL

"Charles by Shirley Jackson and Lamb to Slaughter by Roald Dahl which are stories - easy to identify with the stories but it is not the execution or approach in both of these stories that make them quite unique, rather it is in the treatment and the characterization of the protagonists.  In both of these stories, the protagonists are characterized in a very vivid way revealing an underlying or different dimension in their natures, very accurately portraying the protagonists as people with seriously disturbed psychological states, whether permanent or temporary.[/b]

...In both of these stories, though, the main thematic is the psychological state of the protagonists.  The first story has something to do with what is known in psychology as projection where the troubled person projects himself unto other people whether real or imagined, to attract the attention of people close to him her like the parents, in the case of the story.

The author already foreshadows the kind of protagonist that is in the story with the following conversation that Laurie has with his father

'He sure did, Laurie said. Look up, he said to his father.
    What his father said, looking up.
    Look down, Laurie said. Look at my thumb. Gee, youre dumb. He began
to laugh insanely. (Jackson)'

    This early, the author already offers a glimpse of what Laurie actually is  the aimless and pointless act of asking his father to do purposeless things like looking up or looking at the thumb suggests that Laurie has something going in the upstairs department this, as well, is validated by the kind of laugh that the protagonist elicits, insane according to the author.

'my sweetvoiced nursery-school tot replaced by a long-trousered, swaggering character who forgot to stop at the corner and wave good-bye to me (Jackson) here, we have Jackson revealing the emergence of a new and different person from the boy who used to be sweetvoiced.  The use of the words replaced and character in this particular line reveals that the narrator no longer knows her son the way she used to.

Moving on in the story, we have more revelations of the character of the boy being one who seems to be indifferent and ill-mannered, which points out to something being seriously wrong with his social and family life.

Laurie slid off his chair, took a cookie, and left, while his father was still saying, See here, young man. (Jackson) the author portrays the character as one who seems to be detached from the things around him, taking no notice of his own father.

However, it is not what the boy does that proves disturbing in this story but the fact that the boy uses an imagined person to reveal his own personality to his parents.  Now, proof of this projection as it is called in psychology is the fact that Laurie refers to Charles as being a separate and different person, as in the lines describing Charles.  Here the author accurately suggests that instead of just using a different name or projecting his misgivings to another existing person, the protagonist creates another person in his mind and uses this Charles character to reveal himself to his parents.  Now, why is this, because young boys normally are able to speak to their parents with much frankness and candor  In this case, the reader begins to question the relationship of Laurie with his parents, because if he is not able to communicate directly with them and uses a dummy to tell them things about him, then something must be wrong with his relationship with them.  

...both of the stories tackled dwell on the characterization of the protagonists and this characterization reveals that both of the characters are mentally unhealthy.  In the first story, the protagonist, because of his problems with his parents, projects himself unto an imagined character, In both of the stories, the psychological make up of the characters is undeniable and the fact that both stories have been crafted really well makes these stories worth the read.

   Let's watch Laurie in the Grippe story - to see if there are any signs of detachment as he grows older - If I've figured it right, he's about 10 now?   Pedln,  did you notice interaction between Dad and Laurie?   If there had been an "unhealthy" realtionship between the two, the father and the son -  perhaps it was the temporary sort suggested in the article?

PatH

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Whether or not the author of that article is over-interpreting in general, he certainly is with the nonsense rhyme:

Look up, look down,
Look at your thumb,
Gee, you're dumb.

There were rhymes like that circulating when I was little.  The idea was to get someone to do those things, then laugh at them for falling for it.  They were so common that Laurie's use of one doesn't say anything about him except that he's been listening to his friends.  His followup reaction might be significant, though.

JoanP

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I know what you mean, Pat...but he is showing other signs of defiance and disrespect towards his Dad, don't you think?   Is this really normal for a 6 year old?

ANNIE

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So, did the author give Laurie a chance to challenge his father and then just walk off because the real father, her husband, was a real jerk?  In "Gripe", she mentioned several little things that pointed to her husband that irked her?  When she said he didn't like sticky buns, only onion buns which made her little foray to the kitchen, last longer than necessary, because of going to the trouble to honor his preferences??  When he was the one who had a bedside table and she didn't?  Were these little digs at her husband?? Hmmmm :-\
Darn, I think I would like to read her books, Ginny, but now I would be psychoanalyzing them clear through! 
Egad, JoanP, I wish you hadn't brought that article to our attention! :D :D
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

JudeS

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Our most popular humorists of this era, David Sedaris and Nora Ephron,  skewer their families on a stick and then put them over the fire to burn. And we smile or laugh and think of our own foibles or those of our husbands, children and parents.

Now to developmental Psychology-
Five year olds  are still in that developmental stage where reality and fiction are living together in the undeveloped brain (Think Santa Klaus).  The reality stage , for the majority of humans, develops between the ages of six and a half to eight and a half. Boys tend to develop slightly later than girls.
Piaget, the most brilliant of Swiss Psycholigists went round the world testing this theory on populations as diverse as  illiterate tribes in Africa, Russian villagers and his own son. The findings are pretty universally accepted.

Please, don't ruin a brilliant story, that exemplifies the world of the five year old Kindergartner, (of those years),by overanalyzing.

BarbStAubrey

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Who ever wrote this was never a hands on parent - with kids having imaginary friends, pets, monsters under beds, in closets, and on the way to school jumping out from the bushes. 
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projection where the troubled person projects himself unto other people whether real or imagined, to attract the attention of people close to him her like the parents,
Sheesh and so all kids before grade 2 or 3 are mentally or emotionally challenged...!!??!!
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Really? Roald Dahl?  The creator of Willy Wonka? Is psychoanalyzing somebody else's characters?


Ha ha ha ha I agree with Pat H that that was a very common little rhyme and usually accompanied by shrieking maniacal laughter.  You don't have to have had children or have taught school; you couldn't be around Sunday school children and not know that maniacal laughter well.  It doesn't indicate psychosis.

I agree with everybody  here who are using better examples than I am.  

Roald Dahl?  The same person who told a reporter in 1983, "There’s a trait in the Jewish character that does provoke animosity ... I mean there is always a reason why anti-anything crops up anywhere; even a stinker like Hitler didn’t just pick on them for no reason."

Dahl maintained friendships with a number of Jews, including philosopher Isaiah Berlin, who said, "I thought he might say anything. Could have been pro-Arab or pro-Jew. There was no consistent line. He was a man who followed whims, which meant he would blow up in one direction, so to speak."

No I really don't think I'm going to take his psychobabble as meaningful. On anything, actually. Anybody that's been around young boys knows they go through a silly stage. But I will say that it does show  bit of  disrespect for the father character. That needs no psychoanalysis. I have seen that in Sunday school children; I have not seen it in my own. But this time it might be justified and maybe a little payback.

Don't let him turn you off Shirley Jackson's charming books about her family, Ann. It would be a great shame if another hypercritical male ruined  that experience.

Maybe he's angry that so many people have psychoanalyzed Willy Wonka.


Anyway, Pearson, yes I know more than I want to about the husband. I don't see anything here in this story but a wonderful loving father.

I don't know what kind of father he was but I have a pretty good idea from all the eyewitness testimony what kind of husband and human being he was. And she does not address that in either of her wonderful books about life at home.


JoanP

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Roald Dahl?  The creator of Willy Wonka? Is psychoanalyzing somebody else's characters?
 Ginny, if you reread that article you will see that Roald Dahl was NOT the analyst - his story,  "Lamb to Slaughter"  was being analyzed along with Shirley Jackson's, "Charles."  But you raise a good question - who was the analyst?

Thanks, Jude.  Needed to hear that from you, our in-house psychologist!



JoanP

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Egad, JoanP, I wish you hadn't brought that article to our attention!  

OK, okay, Annie!  Just wanted to see if you were paying attention!
 So, we are all in agreement - Laurie - Lawrence was a normal little six year old - who just happened to have a mother who liked to write about the family - and had also written "The Lottery" - which had everyone looking for an underlying message in her writing. Laurie has  lots of strong defenders here -

Shall we move on now to  the second story?  Pedln writes that she found it even more realistic than "Charles."   "The Night we all had the Grippe."
When did we stop calling flu "grippe?"  My grandmother did but my father didn't.  (Jackson wrote this story in the 50's.)   Are there other indications that this story was written in the 50's?


 

pedln

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But you raise a good question - who was the analyst?

I think the "analyst" was a college student in an ENglish Literature class.  The source appears to be a blog with diverse articles relating to literature.  The author has yet to see the back of a head when he/she says to a child, "now see here, young man/young lady."

There wasn't a whole lot said about Laurie in "Grippe" other than he made is little sister get out of his bunk so he could sleep in it.

PatH

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That article has all the hallmarks of someone writing a term paper and needing to over-interpret to build up a convincing case.

I read the Dahl story many years ago, and from my memory of it he's over-interpreting there too.

We don't really see much of anybody's character in "Grippe"; they're mostly just stumbling about.  The husband gets snarly when sick, but so do lots of men.  I don't the onion rolls prove anything.  It's not a big deal to stock two flavors of breakfast breads.

ginny

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Oh, you're absolutely right, Joan P!   Roald Dahl is not the author of that piece! My bad for reading so carelessly.  

Who is the author, then? That's quite an exegesis to be anonymous.  

Even if Sigmund  Freud  wrote it, however, I still don't think Laurie is psychotic as portrayed in the frst story.


 
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So, we are all in agreement - Laurie - Lawrence was a normal little six year old - who just happened to have a mother who liked to write about the family - and had also written "The Lottery" - which had everyone looking for an underlying message in her writing. Laurie has  lots of strong defenders here -


I don't know what "normal" is.  

  I think Shirley Jackson's tragic life probably wasn't normal in any way; I hope not. I absolutely love her classic  books on her family and I think or I thought there were positive things in her writings of her family life, which many well meaning parents could identify with,  today, including her love for her children, and her efforts to cope.  What a further tragedy if she inadvertently revealed her son to be "mentally unhealthy." I don't  personally think she did.
 
Are you thinking we are missing something the writer of the article noticed? Or that we should look deeper?




BarbStAubrey

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the night they had the grippe was cute - no one that i know smokes any longer but other than that I thought the story could be today - many men are still grumpy when they are sick and with children all young it sounds like a typical family living in an older house where room temperatures are erratic.  Come to think of it even in a new house some bedrooms are colder than others.

We are not a family that moves around at night nor did the children sleep in our bed but going between sofa and bed was part of just feeling crumby. Everyone sick on a weekend meant no schedule and as erratic a night and day as the temperature of the rooms. Everyoen kicking and rolling and tossing is all part of feeling ill and out of sorts from being ill - I do not think I will read it again to solve the puzzle of the missing blanket but a cute ending to the puzzle of bed hopping.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ANNIE

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Oh, Barbara  I thought I was the only one who read "Grippe" as a puzzle to solve and repeated my reading twice! Hahaha! And then the blanket has never shown up!  Tee hee!  This was a fun story to read about her family, Ginny and think I will try one of her books if my library has one. I think I will look for a book about her life also.  I don't see anything here that would make her a great writer.  A humorist but not great.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

JoanP

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" I think Shirley Jackson's tragic life probably wasn't normal in any way."  Ginny

I've been trying to learn why her life was "tragic" - other than the fact that she died at too young an age - at 45.

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"Are you thinking we are missing something the writer of the article noticed? Or that we should look deeper?"
I don't know what to think, Ginny - I'm having a difficult time understanding the two sides to this writer - how she can keep them separate as she writes.  I found the last short story that she wrote - but hesitate to bring it here to the discussion of her humerous family stories.  Apparently she was writing both types at the same time.

 I found a New York Times obituary notice at the time of her death -
  I haveto wonder who wrote it - who knew her that well to write such a detailed notice?  Could it have been her husband?   It is very interesting if you have a few minutes to read it:

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Shirley Jackson wrote in two styles. She could describe the delights and turmoils of ordinary domestic life with detached hilarity; and she could, with cryptic symbolism, write a tenebrous horror story in the Gothic mold in which abnormal behavior seemed perilously ordinary.

Was the stoning a parable of institutionalized fury? Was it an exposition of the cruelty of conformity? Was it a statement of the fundamental baseness of man? Or was it just a good chiller?

No one could say for certain. But other stories and novels of a similar kind gave the impression that Miss Jackson was at bottom a moralist who was saying that cruel and lustful conduct is not far below the surface in those who count themselves normal and respectable, and that society can act with inquisitorial torture against individuals it finds odd."

JoanP

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Annie, I read the Grippe twice too - since the author referrred to it as The Grippe Mystery.  She so carefully went into such detail , who went where, the color of the bedding in each room, etc.  It isn't until the end of the story that the mystery is revealed - where is that crib blanket.  You are compelled to go back and reread the entire story, more carefully the second time, in order to solve the mystery.  I'd check that bottom bunk again...

Yes, the cigarettes and matches - both mom and dad carrying them around from room to room.  That sure dates the piece, Barb. Were they actually smoking during the night - as sick as they were?  I'll tell you what gave me pause.  Mom downed two sleeping pills AND brandy - and was up again shortly after to tend the children.  I would have been out like a light until morning - I think.  Can't say I ever tried such a thing.  How did you react to that?

Barbara, you think the story "cute" and Annie found her to be "a humorist, but not great."  I've been reading how Shirley Jackson's work is receiving more attention now than in the past , gaining in estimation- and wonder if you think it is for these humorous family sketches  or for all of her work taken together?


BarbStAubrey

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she never did drink the brandy did she - she included it among her paraphernalia dragged from bed to bed. I think it stood for the exasperation many moms feel or felt when life brings an experience a mom cannot wrap her arms around. I guess I see the brandy more like a symbol of that exasperation than a moral issue. As to the sleeping tablets -

I remember when my children were this age and i was getting severe migraines that Feronal was prescribed and often in a daze I had to continue taking care of the children - I usually got a good hour or more sleep so that the severe headache was gone and if it was at night their Dad did get up to any calls in the night. But I do remember one time sitting on the back stairs just dazed watching them in the sand box in the shade of the Garage and on the swing under the big Tulip tree - rather than risk their taking a bath before their nap I had a big towel and clean undies and sunsuits and told them to use the hose on each other - they had a good time, changed and I made a simple sandwich and then we all slept that afternoon. After that I remember telling my husband he just had to come home if I had a bad migraine. During school time it was not so bad because I could get a neighbor to come over since I only had my youngest at home or my one neighbor would bring him to her house and sometimes they would go to a movie.

All to say drugs were not as sophisticated and doctors were dispensing pills for everything including weight control. Drinking was more widespread with new homes including a bar in the Den area. There was no mothers against drunk driving and very few thought they needed AA or Al-anon unless they could not hold a job while drinking. But then anything you could shop for was still delivered to you house - from groceries to picking up and delivering the laundry, the milk man was still a morning ritual as was the paper boy both morning and afternoon. There was the knife sharpener guy and the guy who grew crops and came door to door and of course the liquor store and the drug store all had deliveries along with most department stares.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JudeS

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I think Shirley Jackson's work became so very popular because she told about family life in a way that most people can relate to: .i.e. if THAT can happen to the writer then what happens in my home isn't so bad.

What her life was really like I don't know. Whatever it was, she could spin it into gold humor. A wonderful talent that enriches us.

Two of our great female humorists , Carrie Fisher and Nora Ephron, came from Alcoholic households.
They could somehow manage to overcome this (Many people can't) and see the potential for humor. Carrie Fisher broke under the pain and yet managed to pull herself up again.

Humorists are not necessarily happy people. Mark Twain , in the pain of losing two of his children writes about the experience in a way to chill the soul.


JoanP

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Barb - the only real flu (grippe)  sympoms I'm seeing in this story is the coughing, Janie's cough seems worse than the others.  Mom says, "I put my
cigarettes and matches on the end table next to the ash tray, along with a small glass of brandy, which I find more efficacious than cough medicine."  From that, I assumed she sips the brandy, along with those two sleeping pills to alleviate the cough.  Shortly after that, she wakes up to see Janie standing by her bed.  (How on earth did she wake up?)

 I guess you do what you have to do when your kids are small and dependant.  I hope your migraines are a thing of the past! - You're right, things were different in the 50's - I see the kids were given aspirin too - which today is a no-no.

No matter where I turn, I find references to Shirley Jackson's struggle  with drugs and alcohol...it was widely believed at the time that this led to her early death...

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By 1962 her physical and mental health had deteriorated to the point that she could not face venturing into, let alone fictionalizing, her Bennington, Vermont hometown. The eventual psychiatric diagnosis was "acute anxiety," for which any number of descriptions and causes were offered: her mother, agoraphobia, years of drug abuse (amphetamines and tranquilizers), years of overeating and overdrinking, etc.  http://www.todayinliterature.com/stories.asp?Event_Date=8/8/1965

JoanP

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"Humorists are not necessarily happy people."
"Whatever it was, she could spin it into gold humor. A wonderful talent that enriches us."


 Thanks for pointing that out,  Jude.  It is a wonder that SJ was able to rise above her unhappiness, her pain, her fears, and make us laugh  til tears come - thinking that she is just like us, making us think of our own foibles or those of our husbands, children and parents.  How did she do it?  How did she manage to separate these from the horror tales, such as "The Lottery" -  The fact that she did it indicates hers is, as you say, a wonderful talent."

Her husband wrote - "the darker aspects of Jackson's works were not, as some critics claimed, the product of "personal, even neurotic, fantasies", but that Jackson intended, as "a sensitive and faithful anatomy of our times, fitting symbols for our distressing world of the concentration camp and the Bomb", to mirror humanity's Cold War-era fears.

I prefer to believe the tales of her home life were happy ones for her - that the humor is real, no veiled anger or criticism.  But must say, I don't think I'll ever read the light-hearted humorous short stories, without thinking of the tormented, unhappy woman behind the story, who is finding relief by entertaining me - and herself!

Do you see any similar elements in "The Lottery" as you find in "Charles" and "The Grippe Mystery"?

ginny

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Poor Shirley. We can see she had the talent to turn dross into gold.  We can't see her mother and her endless scathing criticism. Endless. I bet Jude can tell us what that does to somebody.

Add to that her charming husband, the big Bennington Professor who humiliated her at their dinner parties, it would make you gasp, with the cruelty,  who lifted not one finger to help her with 4 children, and worse. Much worse. His  constant affairs with his students must have been the last straw.

They said she was "hypocondriacal?"  Dead at 45 or 48 depending on who you read,  from a heart attack.   She was right.  Maybe a compassionate doctor might have listened.  They should  have put "I told you I was sick" on her tombstone.

Prescription drugs? Tranquillizers in the "Valium 50's"   constituting "drug abuse?"  That wasn't considered drug abuse in the '50's!!!  That's a bit much. Tranquillizers and diagnoses of "anxiety" were common then. Everybody was on Valium, thanks to the medical profession.

 A sensitive person. Becoming overweight, eating to feel better, maybe?  Unfortunate (we now know with hindsight) medical combinations?  Drinking for the same reason? Of course back then people drank, I think, as Barbara said, and smoked. She wasn't on heroin, she wasn't a drug addict like we think of one  now, crystal meth, cocaine like half of Hollywood,  but back then when a woman complained of this or that, what did the doctors say? Take this pill. You're overwrought, you're anxious, you're neurotic. Take this other pill.  You're not sick.   Drug interactions were largely unknown.  I don't know how with the  avalanche of criticism she left the  house.

And of course when a child lives with criticism he knows it as  a constant, and feels at home with it, so  she married right back into it.  It was familiar. What kind of mother tells a child she was supposed to be an abortion and it might have been better or she wished it had been? There's too many hurtful things said and done to Shirley Jackson to cover in a 3 day discussion of one or two of her happy short stories, but she might make a good non fiction discussion paired with one of her books. Poor thing. My heart bleeds for her unhappiness. What they turned her into as she struggled to cope.

But you see what she thought of her children, Life Among the Savages and Raising Demons show that clearly. So personally I can't begrudge her those shining moments because (1) we've all felt them and (2) I think  they brought her joy. Obviously. That's, to me, the real Shirley Jackson.  And I can see at the same time a small part of her getting revenge in her fantasy Lottery, Hill House, We Have Always Lived in the Castle, and her other startling short stories. There's one with an ashtray which is shocking to people. If you just insert Stanley Hyman as the husband it's all clear. it changes your perception.

When she died...I have no words for Edgar Stanley Hyman,  or Stanley Edgar...now deceased..... but he suddenly found he appreciated her,   and immediately  profited by releasing unfinished books of HERS. A little late.

4 children, no help, nothing but criticism and belittlement from a man who was supposedly an "expert" in the field, and her own mother.

One story is told  of her struggling in with groceries, very pregnant, and the great Stanley Hyman coming out to meet her, oh good, a letter for him in the mail she was carrying also, taking the letter and leaving her behind. Would not lift a finger, ever.  Not a finger.  Then there's one of his groupies taking a final shot at her after her death. I'm glad that nasty thing has not appeared here because I think it's despicable. And so is the person who wrote it.

 I thought Jude said it best, perhaps unknowingly, " Carrie Fisher broke under the pain and yet managed to pull herself up again."

Shirley Jackson tried, but her heart finally just gave out.

Through her writing, however, she has had the last laugh.



JoanP

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Oh my!  I read your post, Ginny and came away, determined to find the real Shirley Jackson who wrote the tender, warm-hearted stories that made us smile - determined to find the woman Shirley struggled to be and might have been, given the chance if only her world could be like the happy one she wrote about.  

In the process of looking for such stories, I tripped over the one about the ashtray you referred to in your post.  The happy wife who loves her husband and is so loved by him.  You can just feel the struggle waged within this woman.  How else can you describe this story?  How else can it be interpreted.   What a Thought

I'm off - determined to bring back here more of the light-hearted stories to remind ourselves of happier incidents  in the author's life when she was able to appreciate them.