Elegance of the Hedgehog ~ Muriel Barbery ~ Book Club Online ~ April 1st

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

"Prickly and popular novel on class and culture" -    "Central to the book's appeal is the compelling voice of its main character, Renée Michel, a 54-year-old Paris apartment-building concierge who struggles to hide her self-taught erudition and cultivation from snobby, rich tenants. She disdains their élitist notions of class and social order, but she knows the residents would be outraged at discovering what a deep grasp the hired help has of art and learning. So Renée masks her intellect behind the persona expected of her lowly station." Time Magazine The second narrator in the book is the precocious 12 year old daughter of one of the tenants, who hides her intelligence  from a world she finds meaningless.  The two characters neatly mirror one another in a philosophical tale of contrasts which succeeds in resolving some issues of life and death.

Discussion Schedule: April 1-3 ~ Marx Preamble pgs.17-27 April 4-10 ~ Camellias ~  pgs.31-129 April 11-14 ~ On Grammar ~ pgs.133-170 ~ (Topics for April 11-14) April 15-19 ~ Summer Rain ~ pgs.173-238 April 20-26 ~ Paloma ~ pgs. 241-315 April 27 ~ My Camellias ~ pgs. 316-325 Final Thoughts

For Your Consideration
April 4-10 ~ Camellias ~ pgs.31-129

1. Do the cited instances of class prejudices have less of an impact on those of us who do not live in classed-based societies, or is this a universal tendency? Is it only the rich who look down on the poor? How do the have-nots regard the rich in these pages?

2. Do you agree with Mme. Michel's definition of an "aristocrat"? Do any of the tenants at 7, Rue de Grenelle fit this description?

3. Is Paloma's cynicism and her constant criticism of her family normal for a twelve year old girl? Why is she keeping two separate notebooks? Do you think she is seriously considering suicide or just the idea of the effect it would have on others?

4. Do the philosophical musings help you to understand Renée Michel, the way she thinks, learns and arrives at conclusions - or do they get in the way? How have Kant's views of what we can know of the world, influenced Renée in her pursuit of education?

5. Contrast Paloma and Renée's early educational experience. Does Paloma seem to be into books the same way that Renée was at her age?

6. Is it fair to say that Renée learns from books while Paloma from her observation of others? How do Renée's reading habits compare to your own?

7. It has been said that Paloma and the concierge mirror one another in the conclusions they reach on the meaning of life - and death. From their journal entries, can you cite any specific similarities in thinking?

8. Is Paloma asocial, a "loner"? Does she turn to anyone for companionship or guidance? How does she compare to Mme. Michel, holed up in the back room of her loge?

9. How did you react to Paloma's visit to her grandmaman in the nursing home? Were you appalled, or did you find yourself agreeing with her observations?

10. Do you detect a slight shift in your own attitudes towards life or death - or somewhere in between? Are you contemplating any life changes, even small ones? Do you still drink that "nasty" coffee, par example?

Relevant Links:

Glossary of posted Definitions
French-English Dictionary;
Hôtels particuliers; An Interview with Muriel Barbery;

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Eloise

[JoanK]

KIDSAL: I love haiku too, especially Japanese haiku (including Issa, of course. I needed to repeat one of his haiku this morning:

The snail
gets up and goes to bed
with very little fuss).

[JoanK]

Did any of you ask why the concierge felt she needed to hide who she was and act out the stereotype? What does she fear will happen if she acts herself?

I'm not asking the same question about the teenager, since teenagers can be secretive.

Have any of you ever felt you had to do that? When I was young, we were told not to let boys know we were bright, especially if we were brighter than them, or we would be "old maids".

[straudetwo]

JoanP
The Haiku Paloma quotes is by Basho and a favorite of hers.  Google has wonderful information and examples,  even a Haiku Challenge. Japanese Haiku is read from the top down in individual "symbols" for wont of a better word, like the hieroglypics on the personalized cartouches visitors bring back from Egpyt.

I'm afraid Madame Josse, Paloma's and Colombe's mother, would ever even shake hands with a mere (!) concierge.

JoanK I believe that it is not only an interesting but a crucial question to ask : why does the concierge go to those extraordinary lengths not to "give herself away"? 
Take the net shopping bag. 

They were the tool to carry home groceries in Europe a half century ago or longer, and they still are. Made of wide, open netting crocheted from strong material like hemp. When empty, they fit into a coat pocket and expand according to need and one's capacity to carry what's inside.

For appearance's sake Renée carefully slips  calf's liver for Leo the cat between the carrots and noodles or carrots, "obligingly flaunting ONLY a pauper's victuals" (page 20). Could it that she is afraid of losing her job after twenty-seven years if someone finds out she knows about classical music, for example?

Let's also look at the names as we read on. Leo is the name of René's cat. Paloma is Spanish for dove.  Her sister's name is Colombe, which is French for dove (!!) Tibère (Tiberius)  is Colombe's boyfriend. There's no need to wonder about him, though. He's a teenager and NOT imperial. 

[PatH]

I find it hard to believe that Paloma is almost ready to read Japanese books after less than a year.  It's much harder to learn written Japanese than spoken, because you have to memorize the individual kanji.  My daughter, after 5 college semesters of Japanese, could speak it well, but could only read at a fairly elementary level.

[JoanP]

  Yes, after five years of Japanese, your daugher was  merely "educated, Pat H."  Paloma was a genius, don't forget! 
Like maman with her PHD in literature...not a genius, merely educated.

Early wake-up call in the morning...but couldn't resist pasting this in ...have been saving it.  Maman was into Art and Literature  - when it came to naming her pets and girls:


"La Colombe" ~~ Picasso

Paloma - name means Dove - as Traudee pointed out.   Picasso named his daughter Paloma

[Gumtree]

Just a little trivia...When Renee is watching the DVD of the film Death in Venice and hasthe strains of Mahler wafting from her lodge   -the Mahler reference is to  the adagietto from his 5th symphony known as Death in Venice which was used in the film.  Thomas Mann was initially inspired to write Death in Venice when he saw Mahler break down into tears on a train which was about to leave Venice.

[JoanP]

Strains of Gustav Mahler (Can you hear it?)

Gum, I can just picture our concierge, sitting alone in her darkened loge, watching Death in Venice, Strains of Gustav Mahler filling the little room, tears coming down her cheeks.  She is a romantic, isn't she?
I wouldn't call her an unhappy woman.  It's just too bad that she has to go to such pains to really be herself.  She's playing the movie on her DVD in the back, while the TV in the front room is blaring, just so the tenants who pass will think she is the dull person she wants them to believe she is - sprawled on her couch, snoozing perhaps, with cat Leo at her side - doing the same.

Are we ready for Camellias? I think we have spent time well,  getting to know these two residents of 7, rue de Grenelle.   There are quite a few pages in this section, many need to be read quite slowly to grasp the subtle nuances.  Really though, I think, I hope, you will find them as rewarding as I did.  I think the discussion this coming week will help very much, as we have assembled quite  a group of varied interests, talents...and imagination!

Please continue to bring vocabulary words for our glossary.  Also, this week, will you note some of your favortie metaphors, similes.  They really are wonderful!  And Paloma's haiku!  Don't skip over them, they begin every "profound thought."  Shall we start a list of her  Profound Thoughts?

 This should be quite a busy week!  Happy reading!

ps. Thanks for the Death in Venice connection, Gum.  I'm thinking of you as I listen to the Mahler's Fifth...

[Laura]

Thank you everyone for your thoughts on the goldfish bowl.  Great insights!

I still have 30 pages left to read in this section.  Some parts go very fast and some parts more slowly.

Back soon...

[Eloise]

Ah! Such interesting posts. And you have covered so much ground that I can hardly keep up.

Thanks for posting the dove by Picasso Joan, it is very lovely.

So Paloma is going to set fire to her apartment, but says: “Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a criminal” Excuse me? Then she goes on to say she is going to “evacuate” the cats through the window. I like the word evacuate here, it really avoids the question whether the cats would jump off the window sill and if they live in an upstairs apartment what then? Can we understand such thoughts from a suicidal pre teen? I feel that she is ready for anything to get out of her present situation with her family who live in a gold fish bowl. These thoughts can be a serious warning to her family, if they know or care about what goes on inside her little head. Oh! I feel sad for her. And then to top it all she is “wondering if they will give some thought to all those dead Africans” I wonder too if I go by what she says about her parents. For now the coast is clear for them, they have a great life.

Gumtree, how sad this is “he saw Mahler break down into tears on a train which was about to leave Venice.” Venice the beautiful.

Traude, ah yes in Europe they still use the net shopping bags, but I wonder why Renée cares so much who sees what she bought.

JoanK, What does she fear will happen if she acts herself? I am wondering what you think she fears if she let the cat out of the bag about her vast knowledge to the tenants. Are you wondering why if she has been there for 23 years that not once did she have normal conversation with any of them? She was there even before the kids were born. What are you thoughts on that?

[PatH]

Yes, Paloma's suicide plans aren't very well thought out.  She's going to evacuate her apartment, but what about the others?  If the fire spreads more quickly than she thinks, other people could get hurt.  Or the opposite could happen, and the fire just go out.  And I don't know a lot about sleeping pills, but I'm guessing that 12 wouldn't be a lethal dose, and she probably underestimates how long it would take to knock her out.  And there would be no particular reason for her parents to think about the dead Africans unless she had confided in them.

So, not a practical plan, but probably very satisfying to think about.

[Gumtree]

Strains of Gustav Mahler

Gum, I can just picture our concierge, sitting alone in her darkened loge, watching Death in Venice, Strains of Gustav Mahler filling the little room, tears coming down her cheeks.  She is a romantic, isn't she?

Yes, of course Renee is a romantic - remember how she finished the Mahler/Venice paragraph:
I was in the back room, perfectly euphoric, my eyes filling with tears, in the miraculous presence of Art

At this stage Renee interests me far more than Paloma - she hides her knowledge, intelligence etc behind her prickly facade. The big question is why? Perhaps  she feels that her hard won learning won't measure up to that of those who are more formally educated  and that if she allows others to really know her she will be shamed in some way. Just imagine the conversation she could have with Paloma's mother who has the Lit. PhD. I'm guessing the Mother would really learn something worthwhile from Renee's take on her reading. 
 

[Laura]

I just finished this section of reading.  I have two initial reactions.  First, I am surprised that Renee and Paloma have not yet interacted.  Second, I do see a basis upon which they could build a friendship; both are interested in Japan and Paloma doesn’t want to forget old people.

[JoanP]

PatH - Paloma's suicide plans are sketchy when it comes to the details...except she's filching one of maman's sleeping pills every day in preparation for June 16.  This seems to be evidence that suicide is more than just a dream, doesn't it?  Oh, and did you notice that she plans to set the place on fire - and then go off to grandmother's house to swallow the pills!  Poor, poor grandmother!

Eloise -

"she is ready for anything to get out of her present situation with her family who live in a gold fish bowl." 

I look closely at her family each time Paloma complains about them - and really don't see them as abusive, or disinterested in her - in any way at all.  So what is it in her situation that  is so unbearable? Really - fear of the goldfish bowl?  Fear of what the future holds?

Laura, Paloma and the concierge haven't met in the Camellias chapters - but they must be familiar with one another, living in the same building for twelve years.  What do you think the author accomplishes with the two narrators? 

Does anyone have information about the camellia?  Does it bloom one day and die the next?  Or?  I'm trying to understand if its bloom is - ephemeral.

Gum, it is the concierge who has my interest too.  I can relate to her - her situation is real, she has lived life and is not dreading the future.   Her future is now.   Though I agree,  the puzzle remains, as to why she goes to such extremes to conceal who she really is.  Is it simply because she fears losing her position as others have suggested?  Do the tenants in the building really make fun of her - or is she just super-sensitive?  (Can you compare her to Paloma in this?)   Did you see the aristocratic M. Arthens condescending in his remarks to her...or?

I cannot wait to hear your impressions after having read Camellias!
Have a sunny Sunday, everyone!  It's spring!

[ALF43]

Yes Joan- Spring has sprung and I must run!  To comment on Camelias, after church.

[BarbStAubrey]

Back tonight - Just found y'all -

[JudeS]

I went to your Dictionary site and got a RED SCREEN pulsing at me that this is an unsafe site and never to go there again!  Since we have the highest level of Spyware on our computer, and others may not, I am passing on this info.  My wonderful system then , without any command, put Google words on my screen.  I got wonderful, in depth explanations for the words I was researching.Also links to further, even more in depth explanations.

I don't know if this is the right place to put them down but here they are , for those who like me, did not stiudy Literature or Philosophy in college.(Or read the dictionary from cover to cover as my genius brother did).

Page 97:
CONATUS = effort, endeavor,impulse,undertaking, striving
ABJECTION=The state of being cast off.

Page 98:
EXEUNT=Used as a stage direction to indicate that two or more performers leave the stage.
APPANAGES=The grant of an estate, title or offices given to a young male soverign.

Page 104:
KAIROS=Right or opportune moment.

As to other thoughts on the material  I can say that the concierge appeals to me more than the "tween". However, as yet, she is  not my favorite literary character, but more intriguing than her young neighbor.

[straudetwo]

JoanP:  Isn't this the weekend of the annual Cherry Blossom Festival?  Do non Washingtonian's now the trees were a gift of friendship from Japan and datge to 1912?
Wish I were closer!

Now to Camellias.  Google has very helpful information on them.  The plant comes from East Asia. It is a perennial with glossy leaves and showy, large flowers, similar in shape to roses.  Greta Garbo wore them in the heartbreaker "Camille" based on the novel "La dame aux camelias" by Alexandre Dumas.  Perhaps we could put up a link and view one? 

Interesting posts, thank you.  We must be patient. The first of our two hedgehogs needs to gain more trust before "opening up", if that is th correct term. She has only one friend in the world, Manuela.

Now to the new   ...
lost my point, will continue

[straudetwo]

Question # 2. 
In the first chapter of this section Renée is describing her friend Manuela, the only one she  has at this point, as an "aristocrat". How does SHE define the term?
Google lists four definitions for the term :

1. a member of the ruling classes or of the nobility
2. a person having the tastes, mannerse or other characteristics of the aristocracy
3. a person who advocates government by  aristocracy
4. one considered to be the best of its kind.

I believe we can assume that definition # 4 applies to Manuela, the humble cleaner of the residents' apartments and facilities. And in that case I think we can agree.
The residents themselves would fit under def.. 2, IMHO.

Question # 3.  Paloma  is a keen observer of everything around her. Precocious and clearly gifted, she is only twelve, after all.  She is also extremely self-asorbed. Teens often disagree with the views and values of their parents. She is critical of the foibles and idiosyncracies of family members, but she is not without compassion.  (Renée is the cynic, IMHO.)

Jumping to Question # 8.  She is a loner, but a socioipath she's not.
On page 37  (q.v.) she tells us "I am playing  at wo I am ...".  She thought it would be fun to make up the Profound Thoughts "for the glory of the mind" and then decides to add a second journal "about the body and about things".

Question 4. Renée tells us that she grew up "in silence" and in abject poverty. With the help of a kind teacher, who called her by her name for the first time(!),  she learned that there was a whole wide wonderful world out there from which she would have been excluded - save for books. She was "physically hungry", she tells us, and sets out to read, view, listen to, in short devour and digest everything she came across, including philosophers like Hulbert, Rene Descartes and Kant, among others.

Contrast that with all that Paloma has at her disposal plus her material well-being!

Both Renée and Paloma are born observers, a trait which IMHO cannot be learned from books.

[JoanK]

Ahh, the cherry blossoms. For many years, I commuted to work along a road that led past the cherry trees and the tidal basin early in the morning. It was so beautiful. See some pictures here:

http://www.washingtonian.com/blogarticles/people/capitalcomment/11945.html

The home village
I abandoned---
Cherry trees in bloom

Issa
 

[joangrimes]

I know a little about camellias since they are the Alabama State Flower.  They are very beautiful but not very hardy...They bloom around here in late winter and are frequently frost bitten.Of course in more Southern areas of Alabama they have a better chance of blooming without being frostbitten.

I have been in Paris when they were blooming and they were frostbitten there also.

Here is a link to lots of photos of camellias. 
http://www.cfgphoto.com/photos-camellias-species.html]camellias[/url]

I have some that I have taken myself but I don't know where they are right now.  I would have to search for them and might not ever come across them.

Joan Grimes

[Eloise]

The opera La Traviatta by Verdi was inspired by La Dame Aux Camélias by Alexandre Dumas. It is pathetic and more, the music is heavenly, Verdi outdid himself in that one I think.

http://www.nyu.edu/library/bobst/research/fales/exhibits/wilde/images/camelias.jpg

JeanG. and JoanK, thank you for the links. I went to Washington once during Cherry Blossom season, what a sight it must be for those who live in the area.

We see a sudden change in Renée's attitude when she is in her loge with Manuela. What is the real concierge, the one who talked to the Pallières boy about Marx or when she is with Manuela? Such a sharp contract.

Jude S, thank you for the definitions. Can you say at this point that Renée will gain in esteem from knowing more about her?  Or is she now branded as an hedgehog? Is there hope for her do you think?

[EvelynMC]

JoanK,

Thank you for the link to the Washington,D.C. Cherry Blossom Festival.  Many of those pictures were breathtaking.  What a wonderful sight on your way to work each morning.  It must have been a good way to start your day.

Joan G,

Thanks for the link to the camelias.  We have a camelia just outside our back deck and now I know it's a Camelia Japonica.  It starts getting buds in February, and they get bigger and bigger and just burst into bloom in March and then usually get frost bitten.  But the flowers are huge about 3" across.

Enjoying all your posts, so much to think about.  I have to read this book with my dictionary at my elbow. 

Evelyn

[Gumtree]

Camellias grow well here in West Australia - we have several varieties  in the garden. They bloom prodigiously here in mid to late winter and as we don't have much in the way of frosts they come to no harm from that.  -  They're pretty hardy here provided they get the right soil to start them off...Beautiful flowers about 3-5 inches across, singles and doubles - all sorts of colours and bi-colours mostly in the red spectrum and white of course - I often float a handful of blooms in a low bowl where they last for several days provided the petals don't get saturated ...sorry haven't got any photos.

[Gumtree]

Here's a link for camellias - if you click on the side panel there are some great pics of the blooms

camellias

[Babi]

My copy of the book arrived with Sally yesterday afternoon, and I have busily
read up to page  50.

  Remembering your posts about how both Renee and Paloma hide their intelligence, I see that both of them did explain why.
 
Renee, "I am saved by the inability of living creatures to believe anything that might cause the walls of their little mental assumptions to crumble." 
I can imagine that people might become very upset and hostile if someone insisted on pushing those walls.  Very disturbing to have ones mental assumptions challenged.

 Paloma - "..since intelligence is very highly rated in my family --an exceptionally gifted child would never have a moment's peace--I try to scale
back my performance..."
  That line brings up memories.  My three children are bright..not bragging, just a fact.  The youngest, Valerie, noticing that her elder sister and brother caught some grief from the other kids in school for their  intelligence, chose to hide hers.  I later learned that she would actually turn in a poor paper or fail to turn in an assignment on occasion, simply to keep her grade level down.  She wanted to be liked and accepted among her peers, so she was acting similarly to Paloma.

I find Barbery's irony delicious. The slippers she wears "are so very typical
that only the coalition between a baguette and a beret could possibly contend in the domain of cliche'".   She is right. Immediately 'baguette and a beret' creates  a mental image for me that is so familiar and one I enjoy.  I should regret to think that there are no longer Frenchmen in berets and carrying morning baguettes in the streets.

[Eloise]

Babi, I find Elegance so very amusing that I laugh out loud sometimes. It is delicious because some of us have had exactly those situations happening. Barbery is spot on on many occasions. The French still go out every day to buy fresh food for dinner, unless they have bought the large refrigerators we have here, then they can shop in large food stores, but that would go against their habit of cooking only from fresh produce.

Traude, about  in short devour and digest everything she came across, including philosophers like Hulbert, Rene Descartes and Kant, among others. where would a poor young girl obtain such books since apparently they lived on a farm and her parents were not well read themselves. Would she have time to read between her chores? Would there be bookshelves in their modest dwelling? She didn't go to high school. I am just wondering, because she had to HIDE her superior intelligence.

But when there is a will there is a way so she did.

[JoanP]

Good morning!

Babi got her book!!!  Hurrah!  How about you, Jackie?  We've got our fingers crossed for you.  We're looking forward to your reactions.  I'm still trying to figure out if Madame Michel is just supersensitive to the fact that these rich folks who have had so many opportunities - are looking down on her, baiting her.  Are they really?  Was the Pallieres boy purposely trying to flaunt his knowledge to someone who couldn't possibly know what he was talking about?

How about M. Arthens - telling her he's expecting an incunabulum - without any further explanation.   Is he having fun with her?  Here's a picture of an incunabulum - a page out of  a book from antiquity older than   1501
before printing press- but of course our concierge knew exactly what he was talking about!- 

Traudee brings several definitions of an aristocrat.  It seems that M. Arthens is dressing the part - Eloise  found a picture of the lavalier that he is sporting...

Certainly dressing the role of an aristocrat!  No wonder she is aware of their class differences!

Eloise, not even high school?  Now I really find it hard to believe Madame has educated herself to such lofty heights?  I know she said she didn't go to college.  She married at 17 - but had assumed she had some high school education!

Traudee, everyone - those definitions are how you and I might consider "aristocrats" - but the really interesting question is what Mme Michel considers an aristocrat.  Why, according to her, Manuela is a true aristocrat!  I the portrayal of  Manuela - the contrasts between what she actually does for a living - and the way the concierge sees her - and compares her to the "aristocratic" tenants.

Thank you for the lovely Camellias - the links are breathtaking!  Now, for us, the question remains - why did Muriel Barbery give these chapters the title?

Jude, thanks for the new vocabulary words!  Will get them up this evening.  I wasted no time getting rid of that dastardly English vocabulary site before it caused future problems.

Out of time - have a great day - look forward to all of your impressions - profound or otherwise!

[Gumtree]

About Question 1 in the heading:

Is it only the rich who look down on the poor?
The short answer is NO.  though I wonder whether the ultra- rich consider lesser mortals at all other than as a means to serve their needs.

 Renee provides us with  an example of the 'poor' looking down on the 'poorer' with her description of Violette Grelier, who is 'housekeeper'  for the Arthens.
she began working for them thirty years ago as a simple maid, and she rose through the ranks....once she was a housekeeper she found herself reigning over a laughable kingdom whose subjects were the cleaning lady (Manuela), the part-time butler (an Englishman) and the factotum (her husband); she is as scornful of the lower classes as are her high and mighty upper-class employers

Perhaps the degree of scorn or 'looking down' is in some way related to the distance between the two classes. The closer the classes the greater the scorn of the upper - in this case Violette Grelier  -for the lesser beings in her kingdom - Manuela etc.



Class prejudices - is this a universal tendency?

Sadly yes, one sees it everywhere -even here in the notoriously egalitarian Land of OZ. eg. -the 'haves' and the 'have nots' in all walks of life -trendy upwardly mobile types condescending to the 'checkout chicks' - and those female 30 something types who consider they are oh so superior to those 60+ seniors -let alone their cleaning ladies....and one sees it in reverse as well where the often poorly educated 'have nots' utterly disdain the usually better educated 'haves'

[JudeS]

Oh dear- I am about to be a spoiler ..no not about the book but about the gift of the Cherry Trees from Japan. 
Last evening my news station had a special on that subject and showed (oh my-how to say this) the trees from Japan, on arrival, were diseased and burned. Actual photos proved the point.  Other trees were planted instead. Of the hundreds of trees received 18 were saved and planted in a field on the other side of the capitol.  They were planted quite a distance from each other with no other trees around.  Lo and behold they made it and are now enormous and much, much larger than the cherry trees that line the boulevards.  Another myth busted. But perhaps it was the thought that counted and not the gift itself.

As I continue to wend my way through the book I am bothered by the question as to why the author chose to present us with two different Hedgehogs. They are from different walks of life and have different reasons for being Hedgehogs but they are essentially the same-afraid to expose how "elegant" there true minds are.  I feel that there is too much erudition being shown by the author.  Hard for me to identify with this quality alone. Therefore I am reading with curiosity as to where we are being led by the author rather than the usual feeling of- "I care about these characters and want to find out what happens to them" .
In other words the authors presence is felt much more than is usual in a good book. I'm sure this is a stage and as we are carried further along this feeling may , I hope, change.

 

[Laura]

Babi, I found a different quote that essentially says the same thing you did about why Renee goes to extremes to conceal her real self:

“I find this a fascinating phenomenon:  the ability we have to manipulate ourselves so that the foundation of our beliefs is never shaken.”   (pg. 108)

Renee is manipulating herself so that both her beliefs and those of the people living in her building are not shaken, let alone altered.


Joan asked:  What do you think the author accomplishes with the two narrators?

I think the author is showing us that people of all generations and all social classes suffer from self doubt and present an image of themselves that will be pleasing to others.  Moreover, the two narrators allow the readers to have two different viewpoints on some of the events going on in the building, like the death of the gentleman in the building.

[straudetwo]

Éloïse and JoanP,  some things are funny (in a way), but Gallic humor is definitely a different kettle of fish.  I believe social criticism it not only implied but expressed. Renée seems obsessed with the rich;  she "hates" them, she tells us more than once.

And why IS the hedgehog elegant?   Should it be?  Nota bene,  so far the word has appeared ONLY in the title(!). Renée herself would never utter it in connection with herself (!)

The very premise of the book with two narrators has made me uncomfortable from the first. That's why I spoke of the "opening salvo".   As much as both hedgehogs yearn to be inconspicuous but find fault with the world and the people around them, they are both showoffs - name droppers in fact.  Renée has shown her true self only to her late husband, and to Manuela.  She is at ease only with her, and Manuela is a much more sympathetic and sensible character.

R. idares to be herself only on Tuesdays and Thursdays (I( think it is) when Manuela comes for tea. They form a mutual admiration society and, boy, do they gossip!  In R.'s eyes Manuela is an aristocrat, of course, and she is deliberate and defiant in describin her as such.

As for Question 1.  I'm afraid it is a universal tendency to look down on have-nots. And those who do achieve a more "exalted" position,  like Mme. Arthens, play up the role even more fiercely than "one born to the manor". 

I'm pretty sure R. did not go to high school.  The family was farmed but we are not told what it is they did, what kind o lot they had, or how many of them there were, nor indeed how, when and where R.   found access to books before she came to Paris, where she has been for twenty-seven years. 

What about the haka  on pg. 38?




 

[JoanP]

Now these posts give us much to think about!  I would still like to hear the reason these chapters are under the title,  "Camellias" - it seems that the flower was mentioned several times throughout the chapters...did you note any of them?  I'd like to put the references together and see what they have in common...

Jude, I live in Arlington, VA,  just across the river from the tidal basin where the Japanese cherry trees are planted.  You're right - the first batch arrived in 1909 in the condition you described, diseased and buggy.  However, in 1912, the Japanese sent 3000+ more - these are the glorious ones we celebrate and commemorate  each year.

As I continue to wend my way through the book I am bothered by the question as to why the author chose to present us with two different Hedgehogs.

Jude, hold on...    We do have two narrators who are hiding their true selves from the rest of the world...but when you peel off the prickly outercoat, will we find true "elegance"?  Perhaps there is only one elegant hedgehog to be found in the story.  Is Paloma wearing a "prickly outercoat"?

Laura -

I think the author is showing us that people of all generations and all social classes suffer from self doubt and present an image of themselves that will be pleasing to others

I have to ask about Paloma - how does she appear  "pleasing" to others? 

Traudee reminds us that Madame Michel, keeps her true identity hidden from the so-called "aristocrats"  in her building...but  has revealed her true self to her husband...and to her friend, Manuela.  Both husband and friend bear witness to her "elegance."  (Shall we define "elegance"?)  Paloma reveals herself to no one - not even to close family members.  What is there to reveal, really?  Why do you see Paloma as a show-off, Traudee?  To whom is she showing off?  I thought she was doing the opposite?

Paloma only reveals hers true self in those two notebooks.  Do you get any sense of why is she keeping them at all?   Does she hope that they will be read after her demise?  Why does she need to keep  two of them?

Gum, I'd love to hear more about what you think of the "intellectual snobbery"  in these chapters.  Is it directly connected to money and social standing?

[straudetwo]

JoanP
As indicated in # 58, Paloma tell us in the second paragraph of page 37 (qv)
that the first journal is for the mind, and the second one "would talk about the body and about things. Not the profound things of the mind, but the masterpieces of
matter."

Why, Renée is showing off to the reader, of course!
She only mentions the philosophers' names but does not try to debate their theories.
She has all but dismissed Edmund Husserl and his phenomenology.

Yes, it's quite true:  if we want to keep up with narrator and author, a dictionary comes in handy. I freely admit I had never heard of "haka" , therefore looked it up.  Apparently it is  a Maori dance, performed before ball games. Aha.

[Babi]

I was appalled at Renee's childhood, with parents so stolid they scarcely noticed and rarely spoke to their children. Apparently, in Rene's case at least, she had not even a sense of her own identity. Perhaps that is one reason she guards that identity so closely now.  Apparently she did not discover books until she went to school, ELOISE, so that must be where she found all her reading material.

I had to look up phenomenology,  to have some idea of what Rene was facing.
 
".phenomenology is primarily concerned with making the structures of consciousness, and the phenomena which appear in acts of consciousness, objects of systematic reflection and analysis. Such reflection was to take place from a highly modified "first person" viewpoint, studying phenomena not as they appear to "my" consciousness, but to any consciousness whatsoever. Husserl believed that phenomenology could thus provide a firm basis for all human knowledge, including scientific knowledge.  ...

  I have no idea what 'structures of consciousness' means.  But I long ago realized that there is no way to know that phenomena seen from 'my' viewpoint is the same as phenomena seen from anothers viewpoint.  For instance, we all look at a lovely lawn and see a color we all identify as 'green'.
Yet we cannot know whether the color I see is the same as the one you see.
We have simply agreed to call what we each see 'green'.  So how can phenomenology provide "a firm basis for all human knowledge..."?

 I'm afraid the cherry plum test would not work for me.  That sounds like the kind of highly personal test that can only be workable for the person who created it.  I have to argue with Rene's statement, "..the human species, given only to survival, slowly matured and arrived one fine day at an intuition of pleasure...".   I firmly believe that even the earliest humans, all creatures, in fact, found pleasure in some of the things they experienced.

 As for Paloma's 'profound thoughts', despite her intelligence, she shows a profound lack of understanding.  I pleases her to sneer, but it doesn't please me at all.

[JudeS]

Babi
I too find Palomas ''profoundness" lacking understanding, maturity and compassion.  She is still only twelve years old and highly pretentious and supercilious.
This type of personality is usually a cover up for a deep sense of insecurity.  Yet that quality is not obvious in her writing.  Perhaps her suicidal ideation points to that feeling of inadequacy and worthlessness- no matter how she pretties it up with "deep thoughts".Gathering of the sleeping pills points to a seriousness in her ideation.
Possibly the author is a good philosopher and a clever writer but falls short in her understanding of Psychology and of child and adolescent psychology in particular.
Or perhaps M. Barbery is basing her story of Paloma on herself at that age?

[Laura]

Joan P asked:  I have to ask about Paloma - how does she appear "pleasing" to others?

I noted on pages 23-4 of the book, that the image she projects is a falsification of herself both in order to be someone she thinks others would want her to be and so that she minimizes attention to herself:

“Even now, if you look at children my age, there’s an abyss between us.  And since I don’t really want to stand out, and since intelligence is very highly rated in my family --- an exceptionally gifted child would never have a moments’ peace --- I try to scale back my performance at school, but even so I always come first.  You might think that to pretend to be simply of average intelligence when you are twelve years old like me and have the level of a senior in college is easy.  Well, not at all.  It really takes an effort to appear stupider than you are.  But, in a way, this does keep me from dying of boredom;”

[Laura]

Renee states on page 107:

“I am a very camellia-on-moss sort of person.  If I really think about it, there is nothing else that can quite explain my withdrawal into this bleak loge of mine.”

From this, I assumed that Renee is the camellia and her surroundings and/or image of herself that she projects is the moss.

Camellias bloom for only a day, if I recall from my days in Baton Rouge, and are beautiful and appreciated by everyone during their short life span.  Moss lives a long time, is attached to things like trees and rocks, and blends in with the surroundings, often unnoticed, because it becomes a part of the things to which it attaches. 

The building’s tenants think Renee is like the moss, but she would like to be noticed and appreciated, like the camellia.
 

[JoanK]

AHA! There is a reason why we have been posting haiku by Issa. Issa is his pen name, and means the steam from a cup of tea. We see in this section that tea is very important to Renee, and (by some means becomes so to Paloma).

The author is taking us further and further into Japanese culture, and becoming more zen-like. Some of her statements are pure Buddism.

[Eloise]

Is it hard to think that our concierge could have acquired such an education not having gone further than primary school? Page 42 says  «But my studious youth came to a halt at the certificate of studies."  A ‘Certificat d’Étude Primaire’ marks the end of primary schooling in France.

As Traude mentioned we find the two friends quite often gossiping. Is it they only thing they have in common? Do Renée and Manuela have the same view on life? Is it Manuela’s natural philosophy about life that appeals to Renée? 

Babi, thanks for the explanation of what phenomenology is, I would have never guessed.

I found it very strange that the girl friends brew coffee just for the smell and drank tea with their tuiles. This is the recipe for tuiles aux amandes 

http://scally.typepad.com/cest_moi_qui_lai_fait/2008/05/tuiles-aux-aman.html

What is the point in pretending that the occupants drink coffee instead of tea?

Some of her statements are pure Buddism. Traude is that so? I don't know anything about Buddism. Do tell us more.