Elegance of the Hedgehog ~ Muriel Barbery ~ Book Club Online ~ April 1st

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

"Prickly and popular novel on class and culture" -    "Central to the book's appeal is the compelling voice of its main character, Renée Michel, a 54-year-old Paris apartment-building concierge who struggles to hide her self-taught erudition and cultivation from snobby, rich tenants. She disdains their élitist notions of class and social order, but she knows the residents would be outraged at discovering what a deep grasp the hired help has of art and learning. So Renée masks her intellect behind the persona expected of her lowly station." Time Magazine The second narrator in the book is the precocious 12 year old daughter of one of the tenants, who hides her intelligence  from a world she finds meaningless.  The two characters neatly mirror one another in a philosophical tale of contrasts which succeeds in resolving some issues of life and death.

Discussion Schedule: April 1-3 ~ Marx Preamble pgs.17-27 April 4-12 ~ Camellias ~  pgs.31-129 April 13-16 ~ On Grammar ~ pgs.133-170 ~ (Topics for April 13-16) April 17-21 ~ Summer Rain ~ pgs.173-238 April 22-26 ~ Paloma ~ pgs. 241-315 April 27 ~ My Camellias ~ pgs. 316-325 Final Thoughts

For Your Consideration
April 4-12 ~ Camellias ~ pgs.31-129

1. Do the cited instances of class prejudices have less of an impact on those of us who do not live in classed-based societies, or is this a universal tendency? Is it only the rich who look down on the poor? How do the have-nots regard the rich in these pages?

2. Do you agree with Mme. Michel's definition of an "aristocrat"? Do any of the tenants at 7, Rue de Grenelle fit this description?

3. Is Paloma's cynicism and her constant criticism of her family normal for a twelve year old girl? Why is she keeping two separate notebooks? Do you think she is seriously considering suicide or just the idea of the effect it would have on others?

4. Do the philosophical musings help you to understand Renée Michel, the way she thinks, learns and arrives at conclusions - or do they get in the way? How have Kant's views of what we can know of the world, influenced Renée in her pursuit of education?

5. Contrast Paloma and Renée's early educational experience. Does Paloma seem to be into books the same way that Renée was at her age?

6. Is it fair to say that Renée learns from books while Paloma from her observation of others? How do Renée's reading habits compare to your own?

7. It has been said that Paloma and the concierge mirror one another in the conclusions they reach on the meaning of life - and death. From their journal entries, can you cite any specific similarities in thinking?

8. Is Paloma asocial, a "loner"? Does she turn to anyone for companionship or guidance? How does she compare to Mme. Michel, holed up in the back room of her loge?

9. How did you react to Paloma's visit to her grandmaman in the nursing home? Were you appalled, or did you find yourself agreeing with her observations?

10. Do you detect a slight shift in your own attitudes towards life or death - or somewhere in between? Are you contemplating any life changes, even small ones? Do you still drink that "nasty" coffee, par example?

Relevant Links:

Glossary of posted Definitions
French-English Dictionary;
Hôtels particuliers; An Interview with Muriel Barbery;

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Eloise

[straudetwo]

Éloïse,  thanks for the wonderful link; les tuiles aux amandes are a visual treat and so was the presentation. Must view that again.

I am sorry but I just lost another message - in it I said that I find myself  in agreement with Babi, Jude, Laura, JoanK and Éloïse

* about Renée's playing the rôle of stereotypical concierge to the hilt - brewing coffee in the visible part of the loge while sipping tea in the back room with Manuela in the chambre separée !! Isn't that a bit ridiculous?  Would the self-preoccupied residents of the luxury apartments really care if they saw that?  Could it then be true that concierges are considered subhuman in Paris ? Is that the author's beef?

* ditto for Paloma's pronouncements. She is articulate but still "unleavened". - or wet behind the ears.

Phenomenology and ontology could well  be the author's specialty,  because these are after all HER words.  It all seems to be coming together, and I had it all down in the post I  just lost.  But tomorrow is another day.

BTW
* Did you see that Leo the cat is named after Tolstoy?
* and the cats in the Josse household are called "Constitution"and  "Government" ? 
Am I reading this correctly in Profound Thoughts No. 2 ?  Is that an ironic reference?  Hmmmm
M. Josse works for the Government, but still ...

[Gumtree]

Someone raised the word Haka which is a Maori Dance. The version Paloma mentions is the one performed by the All Blacks Rugby team before their matches which has caused  the Haka to be known worldwide. However there are many kinds of Haka for all sorts of occasions - war (as with the rugby players), ceremonial to greet or farewell important visitors etc.  - celebratory to mark particular occasions and so on. The movements are  all full of particular significance. Most are performed by men however there are some Hakas which women dance.

I think Paloma has just reached puberty - which is causing the angst against her family - and she is not yet comfortable with herself. Perhaps the Maori rugby player who captures her attention has more than his inner centredness going for him. I think also that she has often watched the game with her father  in the past (and maybe snuggled up to him and shared his snacks) but her changing body won't allow her that closeness any more.

I can't see that Paloma would have had any bearing on the naming of the cats - her father or perhaps more likely her mother would have chosen the names Constitution and Government to reflect M. Josse's occupation - even importance....

[Babi]

 I like your comments re. the camellia and the moss, LAURA. That is a most
reasonable explanation of that strange comment by Paloma.

I found that coffee/tea combo odd also, ELOISE. It seems a wasteful expense to me, but perhaps I am unduly influenced by the high price of everything these days. 

Q. How have Kant's views of what we can know of the world, influenced Renée in her pursuit of education?
I found this quote to be a fair summary of Kant's teaching. (Emphasis is mine.)

A large part of Kant's work addresses the question "What can we know?" The answer, if it can be stated simply, is that our knowledge is constrained to mathematics and the science of the natural, empirical world. It is impossible, Kant argues, to extend knowledge to the supersensible realm of speculative metaphysics.
 The reason that knowledge has these constraints, Kant argues, is that the
mind plays an active role in constituting the features of experience and
limiting the mind's access to the empirical realm of space and time.

  Renee believes that there is nothing beyond this world and what can be
learned and experienced within it. She has said she likes Kant for his clarity and beauty of his language.  She has a fine mind, and enjoys using it to the utmost.
Perhaps Kant's primary influence on her education is simply that she enjoyed
reading him so much and gained confidence in her ability to grasp whatever she
chose to study.

[JoanP]

Good morning, Babi!  You have tackled Kant so early in the day!

I've been out of town, visiting son, his wife and four grandchilden - all under the age of seven.  As you might imagine - I'm exhausted this morning.  (Did I mention that the three younger ones are boys?)    I slept in this morning for the first time in a long time.

First, I have to say, your posts are simply wonderful - each deserving our full attention. Not only that, they are all over the place- which is to be expected, since that is how these Camellias chapters are presented, moving back and forth from the notebooks and the musings of two different narrators.

I think we are doing fine with these chapters, difficult as it may be to follow where the author appears to be taking us.  I worry that some of you are overwhelmed - and sincerely hope that you hold on - these are the difficult chapters (and perhaps the most rewarding) - but the next section is a piece of cake!

Somewhere in my notes I have an interview in which the author describes her thought processes while writing the book.  I found them interesting and helpful.  We know little about her, except that she was a professor of philosophy and now lives in Japan.  She is married to the person whose name she recognizes  in the dedication of the book - who is Japanese.

I'll go hunt for the interview - and then spend some time digesting your posts.  Thank you all so much for making this discussion what we had hoped it would be.

Carry on!

[joangrimes]

Good Morniing Everyone,

About all that I can say at this point is that this book is hard going.  I am trying to keep on with it though.  I have very few thoughts about it .  I will say I am still reading it.  I really do not know why I am still reading it. I suppose that I am hoping that soon I will know why.


Now none of what I said made any sense did  it.

Joan Grimes

[Eloise]

This sentence struck me from Profound thought No. 3 on page 57 starts with this poem,

The strong ones....Among Humans...Do nothing....They talk....And talk again.

...humans live in a world where it's words and not deeds that have power, where the ultimate skill is mastery of language ... That's a terrible thing because basically we are primates, who've been programmed to eat, sleep, reproduce, conquer and make our territory safe, and the ones who are most gifted at that, the most animal types among us, always get screwed by the others, the fine talkers, despite these latter being incapable of defending their own garden or bringing a rabbit home for dinner or procreating properly.

Do you agree that the most gifted in language have the most power?

Traude,  I wonder why the author didn't translate the word tuiles. It's not a very pretty name for such a delicacy don't you think?.

[JoanP]

Oh, yes JoanG - everything you said made perfect sense - and I'm sure some of those struggling along with you feel the same way. Hopefully you will be rewarded for your perseverance.  Let me assure you - the clouds lift, the sun comes out - as soon as we make our way through the many ideas crammed into the Camellias chapters - and move on to the chapters on "Grammar".

But understanding what is being said in "Camellias" is so important in understanding what is to come.
Which character do you find easier to get to know - or harder to understand?   We are seeing similarities between the two - but real differences too. 

This is from an interview  with the author (not the one I'm looking for, but I thought you might appreciate it) :

Your concierge, on the other hand, is an expert on Tolstoy, but also on philosophy. And even the teenaged Paloma, in her own way, expresses a propensity for abstract speculation.
“I followed a long, boring course of studies in philosophy. I expected it to help me understand better that which surrounds me: but it didn’t work out that way. Literature has taught me more. I was interested in exploring the bearing philosophy could really have on one’s life, and how. I wanted to illuminate this process. That’s where the desire to anchor philosophy to a story, a work of fiction, was born: to give it more meaning, make it more physically real, and render it, perhaps, even entertaining.”
Nouvelle Philosophe: Interview with Muriel Barbery

Eloise - thank you for this important information -

A ‘Certificat d’Étude Primaire’ marks the end of primary schooling in France."

Would that make Renée the same age as Paloma is now when she began her"education"?  I think it  might - but how very different they are at this age!  Jude suggests the possibility that M. Barbery is basing her Paloma's character on herself at that age.  Barbery herself points out in the interview that Paloma expresses a propensity for abstract speculation."
 From her writing, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this didn't describe the author at this age.  Notice that she doesn't say that Paloma is well read - but she certainly has  "a propensity for speculation"  on that which she observes.  We can see that in her notebooks. Laura's post reminds us that Paloma thinks she has reached the level of a senior in college.  I wonder where she gets this idea?  Has she been tested?  Is there such a test?  She may have gone off the charts on an IQ test, but that doesn't mean she has accomplished college level work. I think this is an adolescent speaking - who feels insecure because she is so unlike others of her own age.
I agree with Babi -  despite her intelligence, she has much to learn.


 I thought the interview was revealing- Barbery writes -  "I followed a long, boring course of studies in philosophy. I expected it to help me understand better that which surrounds me: but it didn’t work out that way. Literature has taught me more."

I thought that was very funny - coming from a professor of philosophy as she is!  The comment sounds   like it could come from  our concierge, doesn't it? 
 Babi, you clearly stated for us that which Renée got from her study of Kant -   that there is nothing beyond this world and what can be
learned and experienced within it.
 Kant's primary influence on her education is simply that she enjoyed
reading him so much and gained confidence in her ability to grasp whatever she
chose to study.  And that she did!

Is this the lesson that Paloma has yet to learn?

[JoanP]

Gum, Traude,  I agree the onset of puberty has much to do with Paloma's reactions to her surroundings - poor maman and papa!   "Movement" seems to capture her attention - she's devoted a whole notebook to such observations.  Doesn't she seem to be looking for a hope  in these observations - hope that things are not as hopeless as they seem? That beauty can be found in motion. 

But the motion that she talks about, the movement of the star rugby player - in which he doesn't seem to move like the rest of the players - can someone explain that?  The whole concept of movement without seeming to move?  I need help with this!

Imagine the  impact on the 12 year old girl as she closely observes the New Zealand rugby players perform the haka danceon TV?  Certainly worth noting in the Movement notebook!!!  Can you see this?  You've got to see them in motion - 

Rugby players doing the Haka (be sure to click this link!)

Paloma's Profound thoughts seem to be another attempt to find a reason to live, do you seem them like that?  Looking for an alternative to life in a fishbowl.

Eloise, it is depressing to think that those who do nothing but talk are the ones who have the power.  I'm reminded here of the New Zealand rugby players - commanding respect by their action, not by words. 
You ask an  interesting question -Do you believe it's true - that those who talk, those who command respect, hold the power over those who don't? Those who talk, talk, talk, but do nothing?  Isn't that how Paloma sees it?
How do you think Renée Michel would answer this question?

[Eloise]

Joan, My view is that powerful people all have exceptional language skills whether they are honest or dishonest because it is with language that they have become good at manipulating or should I say persuading people.

Before a child can walk he knows that language is the best connector between himself and his family and knows that he will get much more attention, food, and gifts if he can talk. Children not exposed early enough to language as in the case of Madame Michel usually cannot get a good job or even a good life partner and that is probably why her superior intelligence has not procured her a better job than a concierge. She is a poor communicator because she lacked the proper stimulus as a child. And if that is accompanied by poor physical attributes, then ‘ton chien est mort’ (your dog is dead) as we say here. I would even go as far as saying that this is what has been the major contributor to the poor rapport she has with the tenants in her building. With her high intelligence, language skills is something she never realized she lacked or perhaps she didn’t care to acquire, being first and foremost an intellectual hermit.

Paloma on the other hand has a father who is both powerful and a parliamentarian, at the dinner table she heard conversation from both her parents who were good conversationalists and their guests would have brought Paloma a vast knowledge in how the country is run and what makes it run. I see a brilliant future for that little girl and in my crystal ball I see her as a lawyer first a politician second. She will be an extremely good communicator because of her family situation that also has transmitted their intellect, which is not to be sneered at no matter what she says about them.

[BarbStAubrey]

Haven't finished all this weeks reading yet - but I am not too far behind -  what strikes me is that both our hedgehogs are lonely and are trying to live based on what they think society expects of them.

As to our little one I get the impression, her parents are busy with their lives and her mom drugs herself to sleep - the clue for me is that either drugging or drinking they both are accompanied by behavior that has a way of shutting out children as well as, expecting certain behavior from children. Paloma is curious and bright so that she would feel separate, apart from others her age adding to her loneliness.

Both create theater in their lives with afternoon coffee/tea visits and reading as if deranged. The ironic dry humor is wonderful. Reminds me of the humor in the Wodehouse wit in the Jeeves short story we just read.

Watching the Rugby team do Haka was not near as awesome and literally frightening as seeing a group in native dress perform years ago on the Dave Letterman show - even he was taken back - I could feel the power that ceremony/dance creates in my living room.

I smile over the coffee/tea - when I was a young I loved the scent and look of ice tea in a clear glass pitcher but did not like the taste - a few times I remember making it just to have on the table as we ate our summer salad supper that we finished off with cold grape juice over fresh mint leaves from the driveway.

Some of the comments are precious and makes you think - Almost wish I had time to read this slowly - ponder and take in the comments. I am all set to start a notebook myself - found and successfully bid on eBay a real Parker Pen with a narrow gold nip point - this could be the push I need to put my new/used pen in action while I devote a notebook to some inane collection of ideas.

[Babi]

Paloma's description of the Bacon paintings made me curious enough to go look. Definitely not my 'cup of tea', but if you're interested:
  http://www.artquotes.net/masters/bacon_paintings.htm

I wonder if some of Renee's attitude towards the occupants of her building is not a continuing resentment of their carelessness and disinterest when her husband was dying. Her passionate anger still shows through clearly even after all the years passed since his death.

BARB, I think you just ansered for me the question: "What is going on in the Meurisse family, that both of their daughters are in so much trouble?!"  A 12-yr-old is suicidal, and the older sister flies into hysterical rages over trivia. Both of these girls need help desperately, and for all we can tell from Paloma's comments, the parents are doing nothing to help them.

JOANG, I find parts of the book a definite slog. The short chapter she spends explaining why she thinks phenomenology is not worth her time, for example. I agree with her; I just found the chapter boring.

JOANP, I thought Paloma was caught by the complete focus of the rugby player on the dance. He seemed totally involved in what he was doing. Plus, as someone has pointed out, she is a young girl entering puberty, and has suddenly found bodies and their movements fascinating.

[Eloise]

Babi, I don't think I will ever grow to like Bacon's work, but who knows how he will be liked 100 years from now, and he says:

"Some artists leave remarkable things which, a 100 years later, don’t work at all. I have left my mark; my work is hung in museums, but maybe one day the Tate Gallery or the other museums will banish me to the cellar.. you never know."
Francis Bacon

Yes, Renée's resentment toward the occupants of the building could very well have been their indifference towards her husband's death. Some people never forget

Joan G, I am glad you didn't put the book down yet. I ask because if a book grabs me I can't put it down.  I choose my books very carefully and not very often one doesn't have any appeal for me and I don't finish it. But for me this one gets better and better and after you've read it it all comes together. Please continue on and share your thoughts with us.

I had never seen sports events where the players performed a dance like the Haka Barbara as you say it must be to create excitement. It's a powerful dance.

Joan, moving without moving? I am trying to understand that too.

[BarbStAubrey]

good grief - had this post and all of a sudden the whole screen shifted - the post disappeared and here I am back again - drats - no time now to rewrite - back later today...

[JoanP]

Aha, Barbara - your lost post is a perfect example of the ephemeral  present - I hope that you enjoyed the moments you spent on the post . (Sometimes when I lose a post like that - just sometimes, I'm able to retrieve it by scrolling up in the screen - I don't know how the post gets way up there, but sometimes that's where it goes when it seems to disappear and the screen is blank.) 

 I sense  there's a message here, Eloise - about motion, the motion which seems to be frozen in time - giving the appearance of not moving at all.  ...  Laura posted yesterday about the short life span of the camellia - The breathtaking bloom lasts only a day or so.  Evelyn says that Camelia Japonica starts forming buds in February, bursts into bloom in March, only to get frostbitten.  So the message, as I'm understanding it -   Enjoy the moment, live in the present, as if there is no tomorrow. 
Babi, that's how I saw the rugby player too - completely focused, totally involved in the moment - oblivious to everything else.   There's more to the message than that...but it escapes me at the moment.  What did you take from this?  Make each day count - as if it is my last.  Because one of these days it will be.  Who said that?

I'm thinking this is a very important lesson worth considering -  worth slogging through these chapters - as you  put it, Babi! 

[JoanP]

It's the "slogging"  I'm concerned about, Eloise.  Ás you say, the book gets better, but I'm afraid the slogging will cause readers - our posters, to put the book aside and move on.  That would be such a shame.  And yet we just can't recommend moving on, skipping through the Camellia chapters, because a.they set the groundwork for what is to come  - and  b. there is such good stuff here if we work at it.  Why does it have to be so difficult to pull out the nuggets?

In the author interview which I am unable to find at the moment, M.Barbery says that she always wanted to write - that when she writes she doesn't think of writing for an audience, she just lets it come out as if she is alone with her thoughts.  Well, she is a professor of philosophy, by trade, after all.  I know that the editor had looked in on our discussion earlier - so I hesitate to say this - but do you agree that a firmer hand from the editor might have helped us, the readers? 

I don't know, maybe others will not agree, certainly the book has been a success both abroad - and in the U.S.  The author writes that she has been surprised at the response - and that

"its success has allowed me to realize some of my dreams,
to live in Japan and to be able to write full-time."

JoanK noted earlier that "the author is taking us further and further into Japanese culture, and becoming more zen-like. Some of her statements are pure Buddism." Joan, will you expand on this?  We know that the author lives with her husband in Japan - in Kyoto, as a matter of fact- so the Japanese influence is not surprising.

Like the tea ritual.  Yes, let's get into that - Manuela and Renée with the jasmine tea - while the aroma of coffee wafts through the door frame into the hall.  What is it about coffee?  Why does she go through the trouble to mask her tea-drinking?

And notice Paloma - distainful of her parents'  art choices - really the Bacon painting of the girl on the toilet (do I remember that right - or was she simply at her toilette?) was too much - I don't see that one in the link you found, Babi, maybe the Josses' have an original - but this one in the bathroom gives us an idea what it must have been like -

Self Portrait of the Artist (Bacon) - in the Bathroom

But   poor Papa enjoying  his morning coffee -  nasty.  Nasty people drink coffee, she concludes  Oh my.  I must be a nasty person in the morning - a cup of jasmine tea would be a lovely way to start the day, wouldn't it?  I've never tasted jasmine tea, have you?  Green tea, yes, but we're talking jasmine tea here.
 

[JoanK]

Eloise: it was me, that said that Barbury's statements were Buddhist. I was thinking of the last sentance om page 101:

 "The camillia against the moss of the temple, the violet hues of the Kyoto mountains, a blue porcelain cup-- this sudden flowering of pure beauty at the heart of ephemeral passion ....

The contemplation of eternity within the very moment of life".

[JoanK]

Again, drinking tea p. 91 "At moments like this the web of life is revealed by the power of ritual,...Moments like this act as magical interludes, placing our hearts at the edge of our souls: fleetingly yet intensely, a fragment of eternity has come to enrich time".

[Eloise]

JoanK, this absolutely lovely, they are soft expressions of beauty.

JoanP, the interview you mention, is it not the one in the heading?

[BarbStAubrey]

botanical print of a tea plant know as (Camellia sinensis) - Camellia is taken from the Latinized name of Rev. Georg Kamel, S.J. (1661-1706), a Czech-born Jesuit priest who became both a prominent botanist and a missionary to the Philippines

[JoanP]

Barbara - just lovely.  I confess I was a bit disappointed that the artist was not Japanese...a tie between tea and the camellia?

Oh yes, Eloise!  That's the interview!  I looked everywhere but there in the heading! 
This is the part I found most interesting - she sounds like the rugby player, focused on the game, oblivious to everything around him -

Did you include philosophical references in the book to draw the reader in?
 M. Barbery: I have to make a confession: I never think of the reader as I write. Writing is an intimate, almost secret, activity. I only follow with my pen my own sensations and desires. This is why the experience of publication is so strange and complicated. I am very happy to be read, but at the same time, the knowledge that I'm being read sometimes even annoys me.

[BarbStAubrey]

Had a thought on our Concierge - I remember years ago  with a wink and a smile a Black cleaning woman chatting with me and when the name of a family she recently hired out to was mentioned there was this short hand between us when she said, she 'out mammied the mammy' which we knew ment she was exagerating the sterio type because the family did not embrace her as part of their family.

It was a way of putting one over on the reserved family that gave her some power but did not get her fired.

Like we read years ago in one of the books we discussed that the Paddy in Ireland was a act so the English would think the fellow foolish and  inconsequential therefore either treat him as a folk hero or leave him alone -

And so I am thinking all that explanation of how she set a rouse for the occupants and even used her husband as part of the theater with his watching TV while she plays a Madame Defarge using books rather then knitting needles.

And that whole chapter on 'naming' I laughed and laughed at how she stretched out the simple concept - that was the big thing back in the 70s - how women were denied the opportunity to name things and events and  how important naming is.

[JudeS]

Re: Palomas' account of her families  "Weirdness".

I really am not all that sure that the family is so weird.  She is a rather strange, rather depressed preadolescent and I wouldn't take everything she says at face value. Her isolation colors everything she does. Her sister fits in better than she and it seems to me that Paloma is very jealous of Colombe and acts perversely  in order to have her own identity and not compete with a successful sister.
The Mother, with a PhD in Literature must have fueled her daughters interest in books. Her Father loves her but is busy with an important government job. She is not deprived, abused or unloved.  Most girls her age are very social.  She obviously has some type of problem that isolated her from her peers. 
I think the author is exaggerating her condition so that eventually the two main characters will find each other somehow.  It is inevitable since they live in the same building.  What will be the Deux Ex Machina that will throw them in each other's paths?
I don't know,  but it does seem inevitable.

[straudetwo]

Éloïse, your # 89 is an eloquent assessment, a benefit from having digested the book before.

JoanP, it's true that the book is demanding. All we can do is encourage people to stay with us. There IS going to be movement; things WILL come together.
I've just been through this experience with the local book group. Half of them said they "couldn't get into it", which was disappointing for the rest of us because we couldn't talk about the surprising developments and the denouement.  (Well, we COULD have but we didn't want to spoil it for those who said they'd try again.)

What readers expect is (at least some) action  and the inkling of a plot.  So far we've had a great deal of contemplation and ruminations and associations of ideas (idées d'association)  about phenomenology, ontology, transcendental idealism, consciousness and the structures thereof (!) bordering on metaphysics,  narrated in the voices/journals of two very different hermit-like characters whose isolation the author considers "elegant" for some reason. Her erudition is beyond doubt ad vividly displayed,  but like Paloma's repeated affirmations of her superior intelligence it is all a bit too much. Just MHO.

Thank you, JoanP, for the video of the haka  dance. As Gumsaid, there are dfferent forms of this traditional Maori dance. We don't know whether the linked dance is like the ones performed before games (and which Paloma was anxious not to miss). In the video we see a group facing an opponent with threatening, perhaps intimidating postures, but they are hardly "motionless movement",   which sounds like a contradiction in terms any way.
In the former WREX we had a New Zealander known as Kiwilady who told us about the efforts made by the NZ Government especially in the last decades to officially recognize the Maori language and at long last give government positions to people of these indigenous whno arrived in canoes circa AD 1350 from Polynesia.

Whether one takes tea or coffee is surely a matter of taste and preference,  wouldn't you say?rather than a sign of social superiority or inferiority. It's ever been thus. The Romans called it suum cuique, the French chacun à son goût and we say "to each his own".  It seems to me that the two hedgehogs in their respective self-imposed isolation from the world at large have become  fixated on certain things which I for one don't feel  compelled to share.  That applies definitely to bathroom "decorations".   

I wasn't the one who described the Josses as "weird",  I said "odd", and I would add wacky. It is not my intention to be judgmental (not my style). Moreover, there's a skeleton in many a family's closets 

[Babi]

I appreciated what Renee' had to say about sex.  "...a loveless session of gymnastics is not what we have struggled so hard to master."  I have felt, and tried to express, my conviction that today's attitudes towards sex have degraded it from what it could..and should...be.
  I disagree, tho', that our 'true nature' consists only of defending our territory,
protecting our status, and reproducting. (I assume that defense includes basic
survival.)  I believe that our true nature also includes an instinctual search for
meaning, purpose and beauty.  Survival certainly comes first, but as soon as the essential demands are met, human souls turn to that search hungrily.

  She also struck a chord when she spoke of "All the words we should have said, gestures we should have made..."   You would think that over time we could let go of those regrets, but apparently not.  I suppose much of it is simply 'unfinished business' in our souls.
  Another chord was "..the forward rush of life is crystallized in a jewel of a
moment that knows neither projects nor future..."
We've all known such moments, haven't we?  They are indeed crystallized in our memory, never to be forgotten.

  It was encouraging that Renee was able to break her habit of secretiveness, to say something real and honest to Chabrot when he came to say good-bye.
I would like to see her break free from this necessity to hide who she is from everyone.

 Oh, I tried to find Paloma's word "conatus", but it wasn't in my dictionary.  I did find what is certainly a related word and seems to convey her meaning.
"Conation:  an instinct, drive, wish, craving, etc. to act purposefully."

[Laura]

Traude, I was so busy laughing through Profound Thought No. 2 (about the cats) and reading it to my husband with our cat present, that I don’t know that I took anything serious from it.   

Eloise asked:  Do you agree that the most gifted in language have the most power?

No.  Certainly they have some power.  However, it takes too many people of all types and talents to make the world function each day to say that those most gifted in language have the most power.  I was reminded of this a few days ago when a gentleman came to repair my heating oil burner.  He was no great orator, but had all the power to help me have heat and hot water again.  I may have been the better orator, but I had no knowledge.

JoanP asked:  Which character do you find easier to get to know - or harder to understand? 

I don’t understand all of Renee’s political and philosophical references, so she is more difficult to understand and relate to.

JoanP said:  But the motion that she talks about, the movement of the star rugby player - in which he doesn't seem to move like the rest of the players - can someone explain that?  The whole concept of movement without seeming to move?  I need help with this!

I got the impression that the one player was doing the dance not as a performance for the audience, but as a ritual to prepare himself.  He wasn’t trying to affect the audience (“move the audience,” so to speak), but was trying to affect himself.

“What makes the strength of a soldier isn’t the energy he uses trying to intimidate the other guy by sending him a whole lot of signals, it’s the strength he’s able to concentrate within himself, by staying centered.”  ((pg. 40)

Super video link of the haka!

The Bacon paintings are creepy!

Well, I am ready for Renee and Paloma to interact and for there to be less contemplation and more action…

[JoanP]

Well, I am ready for Renee and Paloma to interact and for there to be less contemplation and more action…

Laura, I bet we're ALL looking forward to some "movement."  Have you tried to imagine which of the two will initiate the interaction?  Certainly not Renée, she doesn't chat with the high-born tenants or their offspring, does she? She did make one friend - the Portuguese cleaning woman -  She calls her a true "aristocrat" - "a woman who is never sullied by vulgarity, although she may be surrounded by it."   Manuela is discerning, isn't she?  Treats Renée like a queen.  Do you expect Paloma, with her great powers of observation will see what Manuela does?

Paloma?  She dislikes just about everyone - including her grandmaman! Her own grandma!!!-  Although she did take pity on her nursing home situation.  Jude, I agree, she is depressed and isolated.  As you point out, most girls her age are social, talkative.   Would she talk to a psychologist though?  It seems she needs to talk to someone!   A friendship with the concierge might be just what she needs. Someone who can accept her for the person she really is.  I  can't wait to see who initiates the interaction.  I'm guessing it will be an accidental meeting.

According to the posted schedule, we should be moving into the next chapters on Grammar - tomorrow!  Are we ready, or shall we buy more time on the Camellia section?  If  we move on, you could always feel free to back track - as Grammar is built on Camellias.  If we don't see any requests to stay with Camellias for a while, we'll plan on moving forward...

And we do have today to continue with the Camellia's on moss.  I'm not sure I see Renée as the camellia, do you?  I'm going to get some coffee tea - and savor your last posts...

[JoanP]

Traudee - it seems that both of our narrators are finding tea a superior beverage to coffee - more refined, more elegant.  Do you suppose it is the ritual they enjoy?

I'm not so sure I am see both narrators, "hedgehogs" yet.  It's true they are both hiding their knowledge - for different reasons.
I definitely don't see the author  considering their isolation "elegant" - would like to hear why you do?

Here's another Haka dancer - you can't take your eyes off of the shirtless player.  Perhaps he's the one who piqued Paloma's interest?
 

Another Haka performance -

As Laura sees him -  he  was doing the dance not as a performance for the audience, but as a ritual to prepare himself.  He wasn’t trying to affect the audience (“move the audience,” so to speak), but was trying to affect himself."

Do you think this explains  her fascination with the rugby player?  - her refusal to perform for her class, for her family - she is not interested in "affecting her audience"?

[JoanP]

"..the forward rush of life is crystallized in a jewel of a
moment that knows neither projects nor future..."

Babi - this sounds just like what Paloma is looking for in her quest for Movement, a moment, a memory of something worth saving.  So far, she seems to be coming up short.
It is amazing, isn't it, the "moments you remember from so long ago, "crystallized - as if ithey  just happened...

You seem to have a real understanding of Renée - your posts remind us of where she came from - no one spoke or communicated at home.   Remember the first day of school, the first time anyone called her by her name?
No wonder she is unable to communicate now. 

Even her husband didn't know who she really was, until after he married her.  It was interesting to hear him explain the reasons he was asking her to marry him.  He wanted a loyal wife, someone to care for their home and mother his children.... Babi, considering Renee's comment on "the emphasis on reproducing" does it seem she is commenting about the children she never had?     Perhaps she will "mother"  Paloma, when they do meet.

[PatH]

Indeed, I'm finding the book slow going, but I'm enjoying it, not bogged down.  I still have 20 pages to go, though.

Barbery says;  "Writing is an intimate, almost secret, activity.  I only follow with my pen my own sensations and desires."

Laura and Joan point out that the Haka dancer and Paloma aren't trying to affect the audience.

These highlight what I think is a problem with the book.  To me, the voices of both Renee and Paloma aren't quite convincing.  Neither of them is quite consistent with the person.  They are really both Barbery talking to herself, perhaps Barbery at different stages.  In a way that isn't a problem, because I like Barbery, and am enjoying being inside her head.

[PatH]

As usual, when I'm in over my head I resort to trivia, but I do have a number of them.

Eloise, what is the French word for cherry-plum?  I can't figure out what fruit it is.

JoanK, surely what the Haka dancer is doing, getting strength by staying quietly centered within himself is also Buddhism?

Here in torrid Maryland, camellias aren't ephemeral.  Mine have been blooming for almost 2 weeks and aren't done yet.  Here's one.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1048_2camcrp.jpg

I'm sure Barbery means white camellias, but this one was pretty and I wanted to share.  It looks misty because I took the picture through glass and it was misty this morning, but that fits.

[BarbStAubrey]

surely what the Haka dancer is doing, getting strength by staying quietly centered within himself is also Buddhism?

This is an aspect of Eastern philosophy - it is basic to Zen and there are various ways to practice being centered without movement in Taoism, Yoga and Buddhism.  Yes Pat, you have it - the concept is that to focus on doing well the movement required rather than the outcome desired. And even further - for most Westerners we only connect with movement through kinetic movement of our body so that we aware of space by feeling air moving around us. Where as the Eastern practice is to stay still until the movement of the body comes about without mentally forcing or thinking the movement. Athletes call it being in the zone.

Thomas Merton, a Trappist monk at Our Lady of Gethsemani Abbey in Kentucky, in his book, "Courage for Truth" talks about motionless movement. Merton spent a year in Asia back in the late 1960s.

I didn't know but this article explains there are 100-250 species of Camellias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camellia

I am enjoying the various references to philosophical authors and thoughts - reminds me of the many books that throw out references to literary authors or poets. Makes the story richer and puts a smile on my face so that the story is not just a straight up story of Dick and Jane did this or that and this is what they were afraid was going to happen but that is what actually happened and then they surprise the reader by handling the catastrophe in a way we would not guess so we all go home happily or not ever after.

[MarjV]

Wow!   that Haka sure could discombobulate the other team .   Interesting!   And you can feel the power.   And as JoanP mentioned their total focus.

Here's an English link to the tuiles with a recipe.http://recipes.epicurean.com/recipe/13825/tuiles-aux-amandes-almond-tile-wafers.html

I've read all your fascinating comments.   Just got a copy of the book from the lib

[Gumtree]

Wow!   that Haka sure could discombobulate the other team .   Interesting!   And you can feel the power.   And as JoanP mentioned their total focus

And that is exactly what the Rugby Haka is intended to do. It's a version of the haka the Maori once danced before they went into battle. They danced to intimidate the enemy - in this case the opposing rugby team.



There are so many philosophical ideas floating around in our current section of the book - Ideas that could usefully occupy many, many hours of research and contemplation. However much I would like to follow them up I'm tending to just let them waft by and settle where they will - Of course they are being helped along by the knowledgable comment here. Hopefully this section will have bearing on that to come so I am reading it carefully. Like others here I'm looking forward to some interaction between the characters. At present I neither like nor dislike either one though I am more in tune with Renee.

Question 6 asks - How do Renee's reading habits compare with your own?
 I think Renee's habits are very like most people who are not studying a particular field or discipline - some of this and some of that - I tend to choose from all kinds of subject matter either as the whim and particular interests take me or as certain books or authors cross my path. Sometimes one reading experience will lead to a concentrated foray into a particular field which is often long  sustained if only intermittently - there have been many of these over the years. I suspect Renee selects her reading material in a similar manner though I sense that she is more determined in her approach. One other similarity is that I want to read it all - and so does Renee.

[Eloise]

There is definitely a rivalry between the two sisters JudeS and often times when there are only two children in a family, the eldest receives more attention especially if she is pretty. I looked up Deus Ex Machina. Right we will soon find out what brings Renée and Paloma together, it is unusual. 

Traude, It’s interesting how the author goes about displaying her erudition, through the two characters who are apart in age, apart in social standing.  But as Renée is performing her daily task it might be shocking for the tenants in the apartment if they saw her displaying her erudition. Her physique fits the job, but not her mind. Is the author pointing out the fact that you have to blend in while interacting in society being careful not to stand out in a crowd and be noticed?

Babi, Isn’t it survival which makes Renée such an oddity? Here is a woman who is working to support herself and she found the ideal job because as a concierge it leaves her free time to pursue her passion which is intense reading. Had she been working as a sales clerk or an office, there would be no time to read but as a concierge she was hired mostly to watch who comes in and out of the building and pass on messages and packages to the tenants.           

PatH, I looked up the cherry-plum translation, at first I thought it was a fruit but it is not, it is a shrub tree used for hedges. In French it is called Prunier Myrobalan and a certain Dr. Bach made an essence from the flower to ease tension called Fleur de Bach. On what page did you see cherry-plum? I would like to know in what context it was used.

Barbara, a wonderful post thank you.

MarjV, thank you for the link to tuiles aux amandes recipe. Do you intend to bake some? I would love to be invited. I am looking forward to your comments now that you have the book.

Gumtree, we are so used to fast action but this time I didn’t mind the philosophical ideas floating around. Isn’t it funny how the author intersperses them in the middle of some action taking place. It’s like a reflective pause in the down to earth activity.

[JoanP]

  PatH - what a striking observation!!!  You noticed   the relevance of Barbery's revelation in the interview in the header -

  "Writing is an intimate, almost secret, activity.  I only follow with my pen my own sensations and desires."

Another hedgehog!  Secretly writing her intimate thoughts - and then becoming somewhat annoyed at the idea that others are reading them!  I love that!

  Thank you for the lovely photo of your  camellia, Pat - now could you take another draped in moss?   So, camellias are hardier - depending on the climate where they are growing, I guess.  Still grasping at the concept of Madame Michel as the camellia - but am getting closer, I think.

I'm not so sure that the camellias in our story are necessarily white ones.  In the link Barbara posted, we learn that camellias are native plants in Asia - Japan - Listen to this -

"The cultivars of Camellia japonica include 'Elegans' with large pink flowers which often have white streaks

Thanks for that site, Barbara!  Are you Camellia japonicas also pink, Evelyn?

[Eloise]

HAPPY EASTER TO ALL OUR FRIENDS

[MarjV]

Have started the book so I'm behind you all.

The first  few pages "Whosoever..." where Renee is talking about herself:  big smile here.  Love the fat old cat. Barbery sure has a sense of humor and fun there.

The child of 12 has clumped the limited world of adults she knows into
one understanding - life is alike goldfish in a bowl - and I take it to mean that because of their statements and conversation she understands life as adult to be aimless,  a meaningless circle of acitivity.   After all, where can a fish in a bowl go but round and round.   And wait to eat when food is dropped in.  perceives them. Do these adults she knows just wait
with their mouths open for something to happen other than what they are
trapped in?   That must be how she
perceives them.

[Babi]

PatH, I agree with your comment:  "They are really both Barbery talking to herself,"  Not only that, sometimes we hear Barbery, the professor, lecturing.

ELOISE, Renee may see her behavior as a survival technique. I question whether it is really necessary, but then I have no personal experience in living in a position of service to the wealthy and powerful. She may be right.

I enjoyed the description of the scything scene from Anna Karenina. I can
remember occasional times like that, when one just goes with the flow without interference from the mind and everything falls into place with ease.

Oh, good!  Paloma is thinking now more in terms of 'building' and the future. After meeting Mr. Uzo, she has found something that actually interests her and takes her out of her boredom. She even says, "...I implore fate to give me the chance to see beyond myself and truly meet someone."   And by 'meet', I think she means to truly know and be known.

I was intrigued by Paloma's description of a hedgehog as 'elegant', as I know many of you have been. I did some research, and must admit I am finding them charming creatures. You might like to take a look at this:  http://hedgehogcentral.com/introduction.shtml
   

[JoanK]

Somehow, I missed a whole bunch of posts last time, and I've been scrambling to catch up. Yes, the book moves slowly, but look how many ideas it has generated. I think Pat has hit the nail on the head: it is the author talking to herself, and we feel miffed that she is not paying more attention to US! But I lose that feeling when I see that she really opens herself up in places.

I think I understand the tea, but I don't like it. When someone is different from everyone else, not understood or appreciated, it is a natural defense to start feeling superior (as both our characters do) and then to start collecting outward marks of superiority (I (emphasized) drink tea, THEY drink coffee). It's just like the marks of superiority that the "upper class" accumulates (I talk this way, THEY (sniff) talk that way). To someone outside the frame, these marks always seem silly. They usually have SOME basis. In this case, tea in the East is associated with a meditation ceremony (the tea ceremony) while there is no corresponding higher association with coffee (I wonder what a coffee ceremony would be like. Maybe we coffee drinkers should invent one).