Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier ~ November Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

November Book Club Online
Beginning on Nov. 1

Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier

In Remarkable Creatures, Tracy Chevalier brings to our attention, two historical figures, telling their tale in two distinct voices. Mary Anning is the young one, the uneducated girl with the uncanny gift of finding fossils. It is the older woman whose voice dominates the novel, another historical character, a middle-class spinster sent away by a married brother to live more cheaply in England's coastal village of Lyme Regis.  To Jane Austen's readers, she will sound familiar. Both women played a key role in understanding the earth with their discoveries, though not without controversy, at a time when there was no place for women in science. This  is  the story of their friendship which allowed them to stand together and prevail as they challenged the thinking of the day.

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:    November 1-8    Chapters 1-3   November 9-15    Chapters 4-5

SOME TOPICS FOR DISCUSSION
Chapters 1-3

1. The first sentence of the novel is, “Lightning has struck me all my life.” What did you expect after reading that? What does Mary mean?

2. What attracts Mary to fossil hunting? How is it different from Elizabeth’s motivation?
I
3. How would you characterize the relationship between Mary and Elizabeth—mother/daughter, sisters, or something else?

4. On page 39 Elizabeth says, “After little more than a year in Lyme I’d come to appreciate the freedom a spinster with no male relatives about could have there.” Why is that? What did “freedom” mean for a woman of the time? Who had more freedom—Elizabeth or Mary?

These are from Lit Lovers Online.

Related Links:
Comments from the Prediscussion of this novel ;  Video ~ Tracy Chevalier on Writing Remarkable Creatures; The Annings' House and Shop;

DLs: AdoAnnie,   BarbStAubrey,   Marcie,  JoanP

[bookad]

there hope the link comes thru, haven't tried this before---am intregued by the 'bathing machine Margaret gets into and it says she was wheeled out into the water I think then would swim!!   in the name of modesty


http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/bathing-machines-at-cleethorpes-in-victorian-times

Deb

[JoanP]

Deb...thanks for the site! I remember reading about the bathing machines in Jane Austen.   Aren't Do you suppose everyone had them available?  Even the Annings?  If they couldn't afford it, what did they do? Stay out of the water?  Is this another class differences we are discovering here, as well as modesty?
Margaret Philpot was treated to one of them when recovering from her broken engagement...well, broken near-engagement.  ...They remind me of the individual beach cabanas on Long Island...but these take you right into the water - from dressing room to the water, complete privacy.  

While searching for information on the bathing machines of Jane Austen's Regency period, I came across this...

"Regardless of their location in or out of the water, non-swimmers remained covered up. It is ironic that once in the water, so many men and women would swim completely naked, but there you have it: Seaside, Regency style.  "http://janeaustensworld.wordpress.com/tag/bathing-machines/

Steff, many years ago, many many years ago I spent one month of the summer in Nice.  Was supposed to be studying the French novel, but spent more time on that beach!  When were you there?  We may have passed each other in our morning strolls.
In the 1960's, beach modesty was a thing of the past.  The ladies strolled in the tiniest bikinis (not me, they laughed at my full coverage)...and the men, well the men wore the skimpiest suits...and I will never forget the first day on the beach...my friend and I spread our blankets and propped our beach bags up against the retaining wall. People were looking at us...laughing.  We thought  at our American bathing suits.  Just as we were all set up for the afternoon at the beach, one man and then another came right to the wall next to us - and urinated!  We weren't supposed to be there...packed up our stuff and left the beach for a day or so before returning- to another part of the beach, closer to the surf!

[JoanP]

PatH -Thanks for including that whole link.  It is a gem.  I thought it was going beyond the first three chapters, and might spoil it for those who don't know what's coming - although agree there are enough clues that this ain't just another "croc."

"Not only was she a woman, but she was lower class.   No one would think such a person could have any significant ideas in such a field, the hobby of educated gentlemen."

  I'll add another strike agains Mary Anning in being taken seriously from the start.   She was a child, an uneducated child at that.  She had that mother of hers making all the decisions.  Her mother resented Elizabeth Philpot, who could have helped Mary.

[JoanK]

I pooped out before finishing Pat's article: a shame, because the fossils are described at the end. Do page down to see picture of the actual fossils.

I was intrigued by this:

 "Buckland‟s (1829a) description of sepia ink (fossil ink-bags) from belemnites were based on specimens from the Philpot Collection, and were actually discovered by Elizabeth Philpot and Mary Anning."

That implies they actually did hunt together?

[bellamarie]

I have no idea what the bathing machine is all about.  I'm guessing I will find out in the next coming chapters. 

How would you characterize the relationship between Mary and Elizabeth—mother/daughter, sisters, or something else?

I see them as friends and mentors.  They each have something to teach each other, where fossils are concerned.  JoanP., you mentioned Mary's mother was resentful of Eliz.  I must have missed that.  But I can see it possible, since Eliz can seem a motherly figure in her eyes. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Seems to me I read somewhere that this was the century of collecting, understanding and documenting the natural world - found this which must have been newsworthy to Elizabeth and Mary - unless I have my dates wrong this would have taken place while they were fossil hunting but after their big find.

DISCOVERY OF FOSSILS
Iguanodon was named by Gideon A. Mantell in 1825; its teeth and a few bones were found in 1822 (perhaps by Gideon Mantell's wife, Mrs Mary Mantell) in Sussex, (southern) England. Mantell recognized the similarity between Iguanodon's tooth and that of the modern iguana, except the Iguanodon's was much larger. Iguanodon was the second dinosaur fossil named, and Mantell named it Iguanodon, meaning "iguana tooth." Hundreds of Iguanodon fossils have been found around the world, especially in Belgium, England, Germany, North Africa, and the USA.

[BarbStAubrey]

Here we go another painting of bathing machines - just linked to your wonderful link JoanP on Regency beach wear and included are some bathing machines - loved the illustration of the squall - not sure I understand the satire of the Scarborough - looks like she is a baker pulling baked goods from an outdoor oven - not sure what we are to understand from the painting - it does appear strange as if a basement to a building was constructed showing the area built low protected from the wind.  

Whoops modified this post I can see Deb has already found the wonderful painting and photo of Bathing Machines at Cleethorpe

[marcie]

Deb and Barbara, Thanks very much for posting the info and pics of the  bathing machines. I was trying to visualize one from the description. I'm still not sure how one swims in it. I guess you swim out the front "door" but stay near it so that people can't see you from the shore. Perhaps etiquette required that the machines not be lined up together in the water but staggered so that swimmers wouldn't see each other?

[BarbStAubrey]

I remember some years ago having a discussion about bathing machines and the information was that many did not swim but rather called it swimming when they really were treading water often holding on to the machine that was equipped with a trap door so you could lower yourself in the water rather than use the stairs to enter the water. Also, once changed to bathing attire after entering the bathing machine you swam away from the machine submerged except for you head and while swimming of course your arms. Maybe someone will find an article how these beach cabins on wheels were used by those who used the crawl stroke

[salan]

I think Elizabeth had more freedom than Mary.  Elizabeth had financial freedom of a sort and no baby siblings and an ailing mother to take care of. 
Mary gained her knowledge of fossils from her father.  I think she was fascinated by them; but did not have the luxury of keeping them for herself.  She had to sell them to put bread on the table.
Sally

[JoanP]

Chevalier described the bathing machines as "privies on wheels."  They do look like outhouses, don't they?  So we don't see bathers in the surf along the shore?  Or surfers?  Or do you think these machines were only for ladies - for their modesty?

 Marcie, if they didn't swim, just treaded water, they would have appreciated the hot tub a century or two later, don't you think?  I wonder when the bathing machines went out of style. The same time modesty went out?  Did any of you who visited Lyme Regis see swimmers or surfers in the water?  With all the rock, it really doesn't seem like a beach for swimmers...or sun bathers either for that matter.

Someone wondered how the women stood being on the beach with all those clothes on.  I thought of you when I read that the best time for fossil collecting was the winter!  No wonder!

[JoanP]

Sally, I agree - Elizabeth was free from financial worry, family obligations, male authority over her - PLUS she had the benefit of an education.  Mary Anning had the eye, and was able to find the fossilized creatures in the rock, but it was Elizabeth who recognized what they were - or at least, what they were not.

She was educated and also had a strong interest in Natural History - which I thought was unusual for women at the time.  I might be wrong, Pat?  As soon as she saw Mary Anning's "croc" she remembered seeing a lizard in the British Museum, but that there were no crocodiles in England. She owns the French anatomist's book of drawings of animal skeletons  - and Cuvier's crocodiles do not look like this...the big eye socket caught Elizabeth's attention.  So what is this curie Mary Anning was unearthed?

[Steph]

It is mentioned several times that Molly had three children who lived, but Joseph and Mary are the only two mentioned in the book..  Yes the amount of freedom is interesting and their brother must have been fairly free spirited to allow it.

[JoanK]

STEPH: "It is mentioned several times that Molly had three children who lived, but Joseph and Mary are the only two mentioned in the book."

Pat's link above says Joseph and Mary were the only children who lived. Perhaps the third is the baby mentioned, who later dies.

While I was reading the article, I missed the bathing machine quotes. I've never been too clear how they worked. In the photograph, they look like they would be impossible to get into.

[PatH]

I have a feeling that the Philpot sisters were pushing the limits of how much freedom they could have and still be respectable.  Their brother didn't interfere.  To him they were probably just a problem to be solved, and as long as they were safely ensconced in Lyme, and not making trouble for him, he didn't care much what they did.   

[BarbStAubrey]

ah and aren't Brits known for and pride themselves in their eccentricities - a bunch of old maids living on Silver Street in Lyme makes for a perfect tale of local eccentrics don't  you think and as long as the go to church and do not revert to being witches all is well. 

[BarbStAubrey]

A big freedom Mary had that Elizabeth no longer had was her ability to attract a fellow and get married - in real life I think I read she did marry.

[BarbStAubrey]

Louis Agassiz was born in the canton of Fribourg, Switzerland... Having adopted medicine as his profession, he studied at the universities of Zürich, Heidelberg and Munich; while there he extended his knowledge of natural history, especially of botany.

In 1829 he received the degree of Doctor of Philosophy at Erlangen, and in 1830 that of doctor of medicine at Munich. Moving to Paris he fell under the tutelage of Alexander von Humboldt and Georges Cuvier, who launched him on his careers of geology and zoology respectively. Previously he had not paid special attention to the study of ichthyology, but it soon became the great focus of his life's work.

Before his first visit to England in 1834, the labors of Hugh Miller and other geologists brought to light the remarkable fish of the Old Red Sandstone of the northeast of Scotland. The strange forms of the Pterichthys, the Coccosteus and other genera were then made known to geologists for the first time. They formed the subject of a special monograph by Agassiz published in 1844–45.

Agassiz also made a name for himself as a man who could run a scientific department well. Under his care, the University of Neuchâtel soon became a leading institution for scientific inquiry... In 1837 Agassiz was the first to scientifically propose that the Earth had been subject to a past ice age

He was the only person to name a species after Mary Anning during her lifetime.

In the early 1840s he named two fossil fish species after her—Acrodus anningiae, and Belenostomus anningiae—and another after her friend, Elizabeth Philpot. Agassiz was grateful for the help the women had given him in examining fossil fish specimens during his visit to Lyme Regis in 1834

[salan]

I got the distinct impression that the creature unearthed was a type of dinasaur.
Sally

[JoanP]

Sally, it seems that Elizabeth Philpot is beginning to agree with you, though she is not sharing her thoughts with anyone else.  One thing she does know - this skull is not the crocodile she sees pictured in Cuvier's book of drawings.  Skull is huge...4 ft.  Came up in three sections! If not a crocodile, then what can it be? 

The idea of dinosaurs...and extinction is not accepted...or even suspected at this time, is it? Has anyone kept track of the year the skull was found?  I'm guessing all those scientists Barb posted above were writing shortly  after this - but not sure.

Am going to look up Cuvier...and his book Elizabeth is studying so closely.

ps Barbara - I hope you're right about Mary Anning marrying. She seems such a sweet girl, not expecting much out of life...beyond unearthing fossils!

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  I have the same feeling about the freedom we are seeing with the Philpot sisters.  The three of them living together, and coming and going as they please, does seem a bit of a stretch for that era.  Maybe that is the fiction part of the book.

[Steph]

Mary Anning. I cannot imagine her marrying, but then,, I canot see why the youngest of Elizabeths sisters could not find a suitable mate. Perhaps she fell in the hole between poor and respectable.

[ANNIE]

Here's an interesting little tidbit from a bio of Mary:

Lady Harriet Silvester, the widow of the former Recorder of the City of London, visited Lyme in 1824, and described Anning in her diary:(/b)

The extraordinary thing in this young woman is that she has made herself so thoroughly acquainted with the science that the moment she finds any bones she knows to what tribe they belong. She fixes the bones on a frame with cement and then makes drawings and has them engraved… It is certainly a wonderful instance of divine favour—that this poor, ignorant girl should be so blessed, for by reading and application she has arrived to that degree of knowledge as to be in the habit of writing and talking with professors and other clever men on the subject, and they all acknowledge that she understands more of the science than anyone else in this kingdom.(/font)

Am looking for another quote which really gives Mary much applause and she was really so young to have all this knowledge at her fingertips.

Here it is:
In 1823, an article in The Bristol Mirror said of her:

This persevering female has for years gone daily in search of fossil remains of importance at every tide, for many miles under the hanging cliffs at Lyme, whose fallen masses are her immediate object, as they alone contain these valuable relics of a former world, which must be snatched at the moment of their fall, at the continual risk of being crushed by the half suspended fragments they leave behind, or be left to be destroyed by the returning tide: – to her exertions we owe nearly all the fine specimens of Ichthyosauri of the great collections …




To me, the amazing story of Mary Anning is that she taught herself about the fossils she found.  If I understand our book,  Elizabeth Philpot, taught her a lot also from reading many books by naturalists.

Here's  quite an interesting ad for the Lyme Regis Fossil Festival.  Fossils have certainly brought a lot of people and interest in fossils to this small town.  Do click on  Programme and Galleries to see what goes on at this festival.  I am sure Mary Anning and her family wouldn't believe what they brought to the history of the Jurassic Area of SW England.

http://www.fossilfestival.com

[ANNIE]

Here's another good link if one wants to view the Lyme Regis Museum

http://www.lymeregismuseum.co.uk


And the Lyme Regis Philpot Museum

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g315962-d297113-Reviews-Lyme_Regis_Philpot_Museum-Lyme_Regis_Dorset_England.html

And here's the history of a Bindon Landslip in 1839

http://www.lymeregismuseum.co.uk/in-the-museum/136-The%20Bindon%20Landslip%20of%201839

This is an amazing record of a phenomenal landslip!  Huge! 

[bellamarie]

I found this wonderful site that talks about Jane Austen living in Lyme Regis and meeting Mary Anning's father. Scroll down and it also has a great deal of information about Mary Anning and Elizabeth Philpot.  I loved seeing this little piece of information:

She (Mary Anning) was even the basis of Terry Sullivan's 1908 tongue twister, "She sells seashells," according to P.J. McCartney in Henry de la Beche (1978):[66]

                                                 She sells seashells on the seashore
                                                 The shells she sells are seashells, I'm sure
                                                 So if she sells seashells on the seashore
                                                 Then I'm sure she sells seashore shells

This link has most of Marry Anning's bio, so if you don't want to know things about her future finds, etc. hold off looking at it.
http://austenonly.com/category/lyme-regis/

Steph, You are correct, as far as Mary, never marrying. I never found anything that indicated she married and had children.  I think it's safe to say, she was married to her fossil hunting.

Ciao for now~

[BarbStAubrey]

Wouldn't it be more fun if we all could attend next May the Fossil Festival in Lyme - Great links -

I wonder why if the museum is built either in the same spot or using the building that was Mary Anning's home why in the world have they continued to name the museum the Elizabeth Philpot museum - I can understand back even as late as the 1950s class distinction so that folks would never have given it a second thought but come on - no one in the last 20 years could figure out the museum should have both names. 

Bellamarie your link is to a page that is so complete with so many related facts and graphics - got lost in it for an hour.

There are certainly more sites that seem to be written independently rather than simply a copy of other's research and they all agree she did not marry - I would have to go back into my copious online history to find the site with the remark about a marriage but I am happy to learn from more sites that agree she stayed a single women.

One of the sites that blew me away with a very close inspection of her life was Wikipedia -  here it is another good resource.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Anning

[BarbStAubrey]

Sally now you have me curious - what is the difference between a sea creature and a dinosaur - were they on the earth during the same time - is it saying that this part of the Jurassic area of England was under water and so these sea creatures are found - how in the world did the area become so high with cliffs if it was one time a part of the sea and England was two separate land masses. I thought Jurassic only referred to a time frame not the make up of the land  -

Pat do you know any of the background on this swath of land the the time frame of these extinct animals - my research showed that the first dinosaur was discovered in Suffolk some dozen or so years later than the Joseph/Mary Anning find.

[PatH]

You all really know how to tie up my evening by getting me to follow up links.  Thanks for all of those good links.

Barb--dinosaurs are a branch of reptiles, mostly land livers, who died out in the era after the Jurassic.  Ichthyosaurs are also reptiles, closely related to dinosaurs.  They returned to the sea in the same way that dolphins, who are mammals, returned to the sea, and the two have a lot of similarities.  Ichthyosaurs died out a little before the dinosaurs.  The other sea creatures we have seen so far are invertebrates who were around for a long time, though I think we will later see some more reptiles.

Until now, I knew zero about the geology of the Jurassic in England.  This area must have been underwater then to have ichthyosaurs.  Layers get reshuffled over time, so you get fossil seashells on mountaintops from land rising, and places where you can see how layers are folded when continental masses collide.

Reading the various links, I am getting a feel for Mary Anning's instinctive grasp of what she was dealing with, and a strong sense of frustration at the limitations that her gender and class imposed on her.  I wonder what she would have done without such restrictions.

For the nerdy, here is a link to ichthyosaurs.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/ichthyosauria.html

[bellamarie]

Barb, I too got lost on that site today, for a very long time.  I was suppose to be doing lesson planning and progress reports, and lost track of time at that site, because it does have so much on all topics pertaining to this book.  The only thing I will NOT allow myself to do, is get caught up with these fossils and creatures.  While its interesting, I'm just not that into the creatures, I am more interested in the people and the places. I would LOVE to travel to Lyme Regis!!

[bookad]

PatH: It does seem so very wrong that 'class' & 'sex' could play such limiting restrictions with a life.  Mary A. was so keen, so perceptive, held such fascination, even with the brutal winter weather she needed to go out in to work the beaches to come up with her fossil finds,... if she had just been a man, or of a higher class  (then again being female of a higher class could have been a imitation in her interest with fossils unless she were restricted by looks and wealth and therefore the attentions of suitors might have overwhelmed her mind and held it away from wandering the beaches and her consequence fascination among fossil hunting and where it led )

--lucky for us she survived ....even while most of her siblings did not...

---class in England; caste in India etc, etc, such a waste of many lives..and unknown, unrealized talents!

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[Steph]

I find myself mostly interested in the division between fiction and fact in the book.. I keep trying to sort out what really happened..

[ANNIE]

I just spent the last two hours reading about fossils in America and Annie Alexander's huge contribution to our Paleontology knowledge.  Interesting lady!

[JoanP]

I know what you mean, Steph.  I'm leaning to regarding the book as mainly "fact" - brought to life by Chevalier's research of the period...  And I think the details were based on fact was well.  Not forgetting Chevalier's creative expression - the way she describes those facts.  More fact than fiction.

For example, I believe the Philpot girls lived in Lyme, that they belonged to the Anglican Church, that they were spinsters.  All facts.  But did Margaret actually go swimming from one of those bathing machines?  Maybe!  They were in use at the time.  Were the sisters  unhappy about not marrying?  Maybe that's Chevalier's fiction.  There appear to be more unwed ladies than available husbands during this period. Can we assume the war accounts for this?  

So, you've read ahead...or read the links and know that Mary Anning never married.  Sorry to learn that.  What of friends? Did she ever have any suitors?  Was Fanny Miller an actual friend - or fiction?  She turns up at important turns in the story.  From one of the links, I noticed this cartoon of Mary at work on the beach by Henry de la Beche - described as a lifelong "friend."  Not much older than herself.  Chevalier didn't mention him, did she? (Notice Mary's BOOTS!)  No thin heeled pumps for our beachcomber...didn't really expect them.  This little cartoon is a piece of history, don't you think?

"It was about this time that Mary was greatly encouraged by a boy, Henry de la Beche, not much older than herself, and who was to become a lifelong friend. His educated background complemented Mary’s practical experience and willingness to find the fossils."

I found a bunch of information on George Cuvier, whose book of animal drawings Elizabeth refers to - think I'll save it for Saturday when we move on to Chapters 4-5.

Annie, who is Annie Alexander?

[ANNIE]

If you clicked on PatH's link above to the nerdy article about fossils, you will see Annie Alexander's name attached to the "Saurian Expedition of 1905" with much written there about Annie.  She is another amazing woman, into, paleontology and all kinds of fossil searching here in the US.  Several finds have been named in her honor.

      http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/archives/saurian.html

[bellamarie]

Steph, "I find myself mostly interested in the division between fiction and fact in the book.. I keep trying to sort out what really happened.."

Other than knowing from reliable research sites, how do you discern as to what is fiction?  I see parts that I tend to question, and consider it could be fiction, but isn't it interesting how we can't know for sure?  Kind of leaves the reader to wondering....  I think TC has done a wonderful job in meshing the two together.

Ciao for now~

[bookad]

Steph/Bellamarie:I always thought with historical fiction from fact there was the overall 'truth' i.e. she did/didn't marry but little areas to pad the story as perhaps the 'bathing machines' to add what the author had discovered in her research which she obviously really enjoyed doing, spending about 2 years doing each book, (she mentioned in the interview on the ...underground....book she was doing following the one we are reading)...I would hope the general gist of the story is truths as far as one is able to disconcern ...perhaps new truths become known with information uncovered later that previous information becomes an untruth and realized as such eventually

would you give an example as to one that you consider perhaps a 'fiction' in the book
--do not pretend to be any expert by any means but just curious
thanks
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[bellamarie]

bookad,  My question concerning what may be fiction so far, is the freedom the sisters have in Lyme Regis.  I lived with my friend and cousin in a small upper apartment, in a small town when I was 18 yrs. old, in the 1970's, and I get the feel from TC's writing, that the three Philpot sisters are in my era, rather than the 1800's.  It was acceptable in the 1900's, to be single and live together, and be able to go about places without anyone questioning our reputation, but in the 1800's, it was almost unheard of.  So for me personally, I feel as if TC, may have given the sisters and even Mary Anning, a bit more of a feel of a modern day life.  We know that while living in Bath they did not have the freedom, as they do in Lyme Regis.  One city to another, I can not imagine would change the acceptability of the three unwed sisters having more freedom in the same era.  Again, I have no expertise, and can only share what my personal feelings have been while reading the story.  Especially, after reading Jane Austen's books which took place in the same place, and time frame.  Mary walking alone on a beach, approaching men, would be un-thought of.  This is in no way a criticism to the author nor the story.  It's just not ringing true with me.

Steph, Maybe you can share with us, what you are trying to discern between fact and fiction.

There has been discussion and pictures posted about bath houses.  Can I ask where in these chapters they were mentioned, because I feel like I have missed something.  Maybe we could use page #s to help those with bad memories, like myself.

Ciao for now~

[BarbStAubrey]

I wonder if the freedom of both Mary and Elizabeth is about class - we see the poor in nineteenth century literature free to roam all over towns and countryside - as to Elizabeth, she and her sisters appear to be less financially comfortable than those we read about in the Jane Austen stories - even those who are not living in the large country homes seem to be a notch above - also, I think the biggest difference is the women in the Jane Austen stories were focused still on getting married or they were married and if unattached, usually widowed, they were much older than Elizabeth and her sisters.

Without knowing for sure my guess is the incidents of possible friends and who said what are rounding out the story also, dialogue between characters I think is based on conjecture. We have found, without the kind of research that Tracy Chevalier must have done, much material that fits the story so that it appears to make it a story was to fill in the empty spaces between the bones so that it became a smooth narrative. I think Tracy Chevalier pull in a fictitious character to act out and tell us what was the gossip of the day as if it was coming from this one character and to share the known village opinion about the women as well as, the the thinking of the day.

[bookad]

-do not pretend to be any expert by any means but just curious

---should read I do not pretend from my previous reply

don't quite know where the bathing machines are in the book but it came right after "Margaret" was shunned by what she hoped would be her suitor near the end of chapter 3; the other sisters thought they might help her out of her saddened feelings by this activity......wondering how many it took to push those out into the water, looks like an uncomfortable contraption, and depending on the bottom of the water there could be a bumpy ride....maybe it was like being in an ice hut, I  for one wouldn't want to be in one of those by myself especially....could feel like a 'coffin' experience, unless it's interior is looking better than its exterior, must have cost a bit to be able to use one

I have read about a number of women though mainly from the later centuries who don't take on their societies constraints and tour the world for one reason or another, they usually being from the class that can afford to do so
I would like to think Elizabeth is a bit of a maverick and due to her choice of interest pushed herself out of her comfort zone to explore and be 'unlady like ' to many, i.e. Margaret's suitor who was not appreciating what his potential sister-in-law would look like

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