Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

Our First Group Discussion of the New Year!
  Do join us here during January and February.

Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell

Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece.  Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55.  Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain. The best-known of her remaining novels are Cranford (1853), North and South (1854), and Wives and Daughters (1865). She became popular for her writing, especially her ghost stories, aided by Charles Dickens, who published her work in his magazine Household Words. Her ghost stories are in the "Gothic" vein.

You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg

Discussion Schedule: Chapters I - V ~ January 2-3-4-5

Some Things to Think About

Chapters I-V ~ January 2-5 (til Molly departs for the Hemleys)

Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.

CHAPTER I. THE DAWN OF A GALA DAY
What are your impressions of the characters that are introduced in Chapter 1?
What do you think of the world and society described in the first chapter? Have you formed initial likes and dislikes of the lives that are described?

CHAPTER II. A NOVICE AMONGST THE GREAT FOLK
What are some of the highlights (or lowlights) of Molly’s visit to the Towers.

CHAPTER III. MOLLY GIBSON'S CHILDHOOD
How would you compare Betty and Miss Eyre?
What do you think of Molly’s childhood?
What instances of humor have you noticed in Gaskell’s writing?

CHAPTER IV. MR. GIBSON'S NEIGHBOURS
How are Mr. Gibson’s neighbours described? How does he act with each of them?

CHAPTER V.  CALF-LOVE
What is the prescription that Mr. Gibson writes for Master Coxe?
What proverbs and mythic/classicalreferences did you notice in this chapter?
What do you think of Mr. Gibson’s plan to deal with the situation with Coxe?



 

DL:   Marcie,  Joanp,  Barb,  Pedln

[JoanP]

The vote between Elizabeth Gaskell's 19th century novel, Wives & Daughters and William Least Heat-Moon's Blue Highways published in 1982 was extremely close from the start, with Mrs. Gaskell edging her opposition by very few votes.  They couldn't be more different.  We've decided to schedule Blue H. in Februray - hoping you will all stay with us though both of these winners!

Here's a  phrase caught my attention when reading the thumbnail sketch - "this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society."  We've seen female writers during this period...I wonder if they played it safe to be accepted - or if an "ironic critique" was unusual - considered shocking in this mid-Victorian society?

Can't wait to get started.  Be sure to come back on January 2 and we'll get into this book together.  I'm reading mine on the ipad - It's available free on the net.  

Happy new 2014, EVERYONE!

[PatH]

I've ordered the book, resisting the condensed version (Wives and Daughters in half the time!).  I read Cranford a few years ago when PBS put on a version.  We talked about that, and some of us read the book too.  It was quite enjoyable.

[BarbStAubrey]

Looking forward to this one - did not know she was a personal friend of the Bronte's  and born only 2 years before Dickens who did publish her stories in his magazine.

[marcie]

This discussion should be fun. I enjoyed the Masterpiece program adapted from the book in 2001, I think. I don't recall if I've read the book but am looking forward to reading it and talking about it with all of you.

[kidsal]

Will read along!

[salan]

I downloaded it (free on Kindle) and plan to read along with you.
Sally

[pedln]

This should be a good discussion. Elizabeth Gaskell probably isn't a household word, but many of us have had some exposure to her through the videos of this title and Cranford. I think I remember CRanford on TV more than Wives and Daughters.  I've never read anything by her, but am looking forward to it.

Netflix has the DVDs of Cranford and North and South, as well as this book.  One of the background discs has the interesting title of "Who the Dickens is Mrs Gaskell?" -- no doubt a reference to her association with Dickens.

[JoanK]

My kindle charged 95 cents. How come you all got it free?

Started to read it last night, and am enjoying the slow pace and gentle plot. I loved Cranford on TV, but missed W and D.

[BarbStAubrey]

JoanK there are several versons on the Kindle - one is free and the others are 99 and 1.99 and a couple at 2.99 and then a jump and a couple at 6 something - the Oxford press one is 6 something and the one that says it is annotated is 2.99 A coiuple of them make a big deal of saying it is the complete version hmmm are some of the others not complete.

[salan]

JoanK, I have Amazon Prime, do you?  I only saw the free one; but maybe I didn't look further.  I certainly hope it is the complete version!
Sally

[JoanK]

That's funny. Never mind: for 99 cents, I can be a big time spender. I doubt this one is abridged. It seems plenty long.

[Jonathan]

Gaskell Rekindled. Yes, I seem to remember Cranford, read and discussed here several years ago. Very enjoyable. I always thought of it as Gaskell's Utopia. Her attempt at showing how well the ladies of Cranford could get along without men. And that was very well indeed. Now with the more mature Wives and Daughters, we're hearing about the ironies of Victorian society (in the heading). I have both a wife and a daughter, both very successful in their professions who both point out for me the ironies of modern society, so I'm looking forward to finding the continuity.

Besides, I'm finding it tiresome to be always reading about fathers and sons, except for Alexander Waugh's recent, spirited account of himelf, his father Auberon, his grandfather Evelyn, his great, and his great/great Dr Alexander, known as 'The Brute'. Talk about ironies!!

[BarbStAubrey]

How about The Son by Philipp Meyer - got it for my one grand who lives in Lubbock - sounds like just the kind of thrilling generational story that would keep him turning pages - haven;t read it but it sounds like a rough and ready group of characters that are the very opposite of the typical nineteenth century niceties from Gadskell

From the bits I have read about this story it appears to be very different than Cranford - Hope to do some reading on the plane - still too much left to do - gotta go.

[bellamarie]

Looking forward to joining this discussion.  It will be a nice, hopefully slower time for me.  I have never heard or read anything by Elizabeth Gaskell, but I have a new found interest in the 18th/19th century in England so I am excited.  I love the dynamics of wives and daughters, so I am sure I am going to enjoy this book. If it's free I may try getting it on my color nook.  If not I am sure I can download it from my library.

Ciao for now~

[marcie]

What a great group already gathering, PatH, Kidsal, salan, pedln, JoanK, Jonathan and Bellamarie. We can learn a bit about the era as well as enjoy talking about the book.

[marjifay]

This book did not look very interesting to me, BUT, now that I have read about 8 chapters, I'm finding it very interesting and hard to put down.  So I am looking forward to the discussion.

Marj

[JoanP]

One more day and I should be free to get into the book, too,  Marjifay.  I've been interested in this book since I read that Elizabeth Gaskell offers us an "ironique critique of mid-Victorian society."  The idea of a female author criticizing the society ( the men?) of her time, fascinates me.

If I understand correctly, the story is set in a remote village...just before the coming of the railroad...maybe when it first opened. Does anyone remember when that was? Remember Cranford? A fictional village, looking forward to the railroad, devastated to learn that it was going to bypass them.

Am looking forward to another Elizabeth Gaskell...

[marcie]

Marj, it's good to know that the book is hard to put down. We should be in for a treat to start the new year.

JoanP, there is a short article on the  history of the railroad in Great Britain at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transport_in_Great_Britain

The PBS site about their adaptation of Wives and Daughters says this about the timeframe of the book:

"Pre-Victorian English country society in the 1820s, the time period in which Wives and Daughters is set, was multi-layered and organized by intricate and distinct social groupings.

This basic hierarchical system consisted of the upper-, the middle- and the working-classes -- and each of these categories had its own internal hierarchical relationships as well. The upper classes ruled through a system of inherited aristocracy with complex rules, including rules of address. Everyone knew their place and fulfilled through their speech, dress, manner and aspirations."

There is more at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/wives/society.html

[JoanP]

Marcie, those two sites help.  Knowing the "Pre-Victorian English country society in the 1820s, is the time period in which Wives and Daughters is set," explains why I was puzzled...as Eliz. Gaskell wrote the novel in 1864.  She was writing of an earlier age, before the coming of the railroad, which did so much to bring the country villages in touch with the change going on in London - in the rest of the country.

[CallieOK]

X = marking my spot.  I don't (yet) have the book and for the past week, Life (has been) What Happens When You're Making Other Plans.   I'll read along and hope to catch up eventually.

[marcie]

Great, Callie. I'm glad you'll be joining us. While you wait for the book you might want to read a few chapters online. The whole book is available at http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm

[CallieOK]

Thanks, Marcie.  I'll check into that.

[PatH]

The first five chapters go fairly fast.  Good to see you here, Callie.

[marcie]

It's good to see you here, Pat. I am enjoying the writing and looking forward to finding out what happens.

[JoanK]

I read it before the Christmas rush, but so much has happened since then, I don't remember much. Will reread it tonight in bed. I'll either finish it or get a good nights sleep.

[JoanP]

The first day of the first discussion in the New Year!  I am  excited about this. Just had to look up the town of   Hollingford,  - real or fictional?  I learned it is  small fictional town in the middle of England, closely based on Knutsford, Cheshire, Gaskell's hometown.  For those of you who read Gaskell's Cranford - you might remember that the town of Cranford was also based on Knutsford.  I'm going to guess that  Wives and Daughters is based on Gaskell's own life and experience?

A Christmas present - a thick paperback copy of the book...with tiny print.  When I first looked at it, I thought surely there would be footnotes, but was mistaken.  Does anyone have a footnoted copy - or will we be supplying our own footnotes?

Marcie has left us some interesting points to considerin the heading...don't miss them as you read each section.  My first impression?  That the book is going to be as much about Dr. Gibson as the relationship between wives and daughters.  I couldn't help but notice how many women died at a young age...beginning with young Molly's own mother.  I gather she will be the main character of the story - once she grows up.
Right now, I'm really liking the no-nonsense doctor, the loving father.  Mrs. Gaskell seems to be using him as a contrast to other men in the story.

[PatH]

The book certainly gets off to a promising start.  This is the third book we have read recently about roughly the same time and society (it takes place ten to fifteen years later that Persuasion), so by now we should be experts on English village life.  But it seems a little different in each case.

I'm struck by the contrast in  the techniques of Jane Austen and Mrs. Gaskell.  Both have a wickedly clear-sighted eye for the foibles of their characters, but Austen uses a more indirect way of showing us, primarily through conversations, while Gaskell gives us more lengthy, straightforward descriptions of people.

JoanP--my book has 10 or so short footnotes per chapter, mostly explaining unfamiliar words or terms.

[pedln]

The book does get off to a promising start -- and it continues.  I've read quite a bit ahead, so will watch my p's and q's here, keeping the iPad for continued reading and the Kindle and PC for review and searching.  (My memory needs some help, too, JoanK.

The names of the village are interesting, JoanP.  My first thought on seeing Knutsford was that it was a Scandinavian name, but now see that I inadvertently put a "j" in for Knutsfjord.

I'm glad you're pointing out the differences between Austen and Gaskill, PatH. It's a help for those of us who haven't read a lot of either.

I love the excitement that Gaskill brings in, showing how excited Molly is over this day.  How much she is looking forward to it.  And I enjoyed the bonnet descriptions.  Why do you suppose she must wear a white frock?

[Jonathan]

Hi'ya all

I sit here wondering, what have I let myself in for with Wives and Daughters? Subtitled An Everyday Story.

But no ordinary day it seems. The first chapter heading declares The Dawn of a Gala Day. And there's a hint of excitement in each of the other 59 chapter headings! And look at this expanded theme in chapter 27: Father and Sons.

Talk of 'childhood rigmarole' and 'feudal feelings' in rural England. Sounds to me like Mrs Gaskell is finding her own fossils to match those in Lyme Regis.

What a party with Lady Cumnor! It ends with 'the happy consciousness of a well-spent day. but with some fatigue at the long-continued exertion of behaving their best, and talking on stilts for so many hours. Nor were Lady Cumnor and her daughter free from something of the same self-approbation, and something, too, of the same fatigue that always follows on conscious efforts to behave as will best please the society you are in.'

Talking on Stilts.!?!? That could be exhausting.

We must keep our eye on the Miss Brownings. 'They were tall handsome women, past their first youth, and inclined to be  extremely complaisant to the widowed doctor.'

I'm not sure of the compacent attitude here. The doctor has been widowed for a dozen years and would hardly want to disturb the happy domestic life with his darling daughter.

[BarbStAubrey]

Read some background info from the Oxford publication but have not started the story - I need another day or two - all my things should arrive tomorrow and once I get my clothes back in the drawers and closets and I settle in a bit I can start - today is Thursday so by late Saturday or Sunday I should be able to get going.

[JoanK]

I love that phrase "talking on stilts for so many hours". Does it refer to the shoes they wore, or more symbolically, to the sense of unease and being about to fall on ones face that the villagers felt in this unfamiliar environment.

My copy doesn't have numbered chapters, only occasional headings. I read much too far: either I lost count or the headings don't correspond to the chapters. So thank you for saying "until she leaves for Haskell". I'm going to need those phrases.

Gaskell certainly makes social class and strata differences very evident. You don't find this in Austen, (except in Emma).

The doctor is interesting. He is kinda-sorta gentry, but not quite. If you were upper class, there were only a few occupations that you could work in without losing status: the church, the law, or the military. Doctors were late in being accepted into that list.

[salan]

I read the first five chapters.  I must not be in the mood for this type of book, as I found it a little boring.  I got it free on my Kindle and it says that it is 800 pages long!  Is that correct?  I will read a little further, but may not continue..
Sally

[pedln]

Hey, is there anyone else from Southeast Missouri here? I'd sure like to meet you if there is.  I was surprised to find the VHS of Wives and Daughters checked out from the public library. Not that no one else in my town likes Elizabeth Gaskill, just the timing of it.

Sally, your edition is correct on the number of pages.  I have the same one on my Kindle.  Stick with it, you may be surprised.

[bluebird24]

will read gutenberg

[marcie]

bluebird, I'm glad you'll be able to read the book online. I've read the first five chapters online while I'm hunting for the copy of the book I misplaced over the Christmas holidays. Sally, as Pedln says, I  hope you stick with it. I think that the discussion here will motivate us all.

PatH, is "talking on stilts" footnoted in your book? Your guesses are good, JoanK. I'm also wondering if it might refer to the "lofty" or "exaggerated" nice things one tries to say in "company."

Pat, I'm glad you brought up the differences in style between Eliz. Gaskell and Jane Austen. I'm finding the detailed descriptions of the characters by Gaskell helpful in getting into the story.

JoanK, you're right. The doctor seems to be accepted into every level of society, including the highest. I wonder if it's partly due to his own educated manner, as well as his profession. There were probably some unmannered country doctors during that time.

Jonathan, I agree with you, "complaisant" or not, I don't think that the tall Miss Brownings have a chance with the doctor. He's not looking for another wife and is very attached to his daughter. I also think he seems to have standards or preferences that would not include any of them as a love interest.

I remember the word "condescension" used by Mr. Collins in reference to Lady Catherine de Bourgh of Rosings Park in Jane Austen's PRIDE AND PREJUDICE. I noticed it early in Gaskell's first chapter in reference to the attitude of theupper class in the Tower to the lower classes. I looked it up and found:
"An older, less-used definition of the word has condescend as a verb rather than an adjective, and defines it as "to behave as if one is conscious of descending from a superior position, rank, or dignity." A good example would be the Queen of England talking to someone of a lower social rank without appearing to talk down to that person. In that case, the Queen would have condescended to the lower rank of the other person."
http://freetheprincess.blogspot.com/2010/10/random-historicial-trivia-meaning-of.html

What other terms did  you wonder about or have to look up?

[PatH]

Kinda-sorta gentry but not quite--that expresses it very nicely, JoanK.  Furthermore, Gibson is a surgeon, lower class than a physician.  But he has gone to the most prestigious medical university at the time--Edinburgh--whereas most surgeons got their training by apprenticeship, like the students Gibson takes into his house.  And he is very presentable--tall, dark handsome and lean.  As Gaskell says in one of her nifty little touches, "leanness goes a great way to gentility".  As Marcie points out, Gibson is freely welcomed to dine with Lord and Lady Cumnor, whereas his predecessor, Mr. Hall, was not.

Actually, there is plenty of awareness of social class and strata in Austen, but as you point out, it's less in your face, being mostly understated, present in little social cues.

"Talking on stilts" doesn't have a footnote in my book, alas.

[marcie]

Pat, that's a good point about the education of surgeons and physicians. I hadn't made the connection.

Interesting too, as you note, that his "leanness" made a difference (for the better) in how he was perceived.

[JoanK]

Even today there are weight differences by social class: upper class people being supposedly thinner (supposed to show better discrimination and self control). The opposite of medieval china, where being fat was a symbol of high status.

What funny things we humans do to  each other!

[Jonathan]

Stay with it, Sally. It gets very interesting as you get into the lives of these characters. Joan points to that, I believe, when she wonders about what these people do to each other. Their interactions make a fine story.

Being alert to word usages in past years keeps the reader alert to all kinds of nuances, as Marcie has pointed out with regard to the use of 'condescension.' The Lady is being gracious by showing awareness of someone in a lower class.

My dictionary reminds me that language can be stilted. It can be pompous, inflated, stiff, bombastic, etc. At the party a lot of nervous energy left many uncertain about what to say. Very tiring.

I find the school for girls interesting. Was it philanthropy that got them going, or was it a matter of training girls for a life of service to the higher classes?