Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

January-February Book Club Online

Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell

Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece.  Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society. The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55.  Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.

You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg

Discussion Schedule: Part 6                   Feb. 22-28+  Feb. 22-27}      Chapter 51 TROUBLES NEVER COME ALONE      Chapter 52 SQUIRE HAMLEY'S SORROW      Chapter 53 UNLOOKED-FOR ARRIVALS      Chapter 54 MOLLY GIBSON'S WORTH IS DISCOVERED      Chapter 55 AN ABSENT LOVER RETURNS      Chapter 56 "OFF WITH THE OLD LOVE, AND ON WITH THE NEW"      Chapter 57 BRIDAL VISITS AND ADIEUX  Feb. 28 ....      Chapter 58 REVIVING HOPES AND BRIGHTENING PROSPECTS      Chapter 59 MOLLY GIBSON AT HAMLEY HALL      Chapter 60  ROGER HAMLEY'S CONFESSION

Some Things to Think About
Feb. 22-27 Chapters L1-LVII

Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.

CHAPTER LI.   TROUBLES NEVER COME ALONE
Do you believe that “Troubles never come alone?”
At the very end of her conversation with Mr. Gibson, Cynthia has a moment of regret about giving up Roger.  “Yet often in after years, when it was too late, she wondered, and strove to penetrate the inscrutable mystery of ‘what would have been.’”  What do you think that tells you about Cynthia’s fate and future life?
Did you expect Osborne to die?
  
CHAPTER LII.  SQUIRE HAMLEY'S SORROW
Why does Mrs. Gaskell make Osborne’s wife a Frenchwoman?
Is Squire Hamley’s grief realistically described?


CHAPTER LIII  UNLOOKED-FOR ARRIVALS
Why does Squire Hamley have such a stereotyped picture of Aimée?  What is she really like?  Is that a stereotype too?
The squire couldn’t get enough of Aimée’s letters, and is touched by her appearance.  How can he think of sending her away?  Will she go?

CHAPTER LIV  MOLLY GIBSON'S WORTH IS DISCOVERED
In what ways is Molly’s worth discovered?  By whom?
There are two hospital nurses watching over Aimée, and a maid assigned to care for little Roger’s needs, plus his grandfather spending time with him.  What duties are left for Molly that will exhaust her so much?
How is Cynthia’s standing improved by her behavior during Molly’s illness?

CHAPTER LV   AN ABSENT LOVER RETURNS

CHAPTER LVI  "OFF WITH THE OLD LOVE, AND ON WITH THE NEW"

CHAPTER LVII   BRIDAL VISITS AND ADIEUX

CHAPTER LVIII.   REVIVING HOPES AND BRIGHTENING PROSPECTS
When they meet again what are the impressions of Molly and Roger of each other?
What are some tensions between them?
Did you find some of the passages in this chapter humorous?

CHAPTER LIX.    MOLLY GIBSON AT HAMLEY HALL
What does Mrs. Goodenough think about Molly's proposed visit to Hamley Hall?
How does Molly act toward Roger?
What do you think of the way that Mrs. Gaskell reveals Molly's and Roger's feelings in this chapter?

CHAPTER LX      ROGER HAMLEY'S CONFESSION
What good outcome resulted from little Osborne's illness?
What things struck you in the conversation between Roger and Molly's father?
Do you think that Roger is being inconstant loving Molly now instead of Cynthia?
Are you satisfied with how the novel ends?
What do you think of all of the major characters?

Concluding Remarks by the editor of Cornhill Magazine)
Did reading the brief notes left by Mrs. Gaskell and the information from the editor help you reach more closure with the novel?
Did you learn anything you didn't expect?
 

 

DLs: Marcie,  Joanp,  Barb,  Pedln,  
PatH,  ADOANNIE

[bellamarie]

JoanP., 

But they never did lay eyes on one another, did they?

Roger and Cynthia did not have a face to face, once he came home, because when he went to her house to see if she might change her mind, he saw Cynthia in the garden with Henderson, and said this to Mr. Gibson:

pg. 592 But you know how I found her, when I went to have the interview which I trusted might end in the renewal of our relations,—engaged to Mr. Henderson. I saw her walking with him in your garden, coquetting with him about a flower, just as she used to do with me.

My reference in my post from pg. 599, was referring to how it tells us how the author intended her readers to feel while reading the book.  Which for me, is pretty dead on.

you feel yourself caught out of an abominable wicked world, crawling with selfishness and reeking with base passions, into one where there is much weakness, many mistakes, sufferings long and bitter, but where it is possible for people to live calm and wholesome lives; and, what is more, you feel that this is at least as real a world as the other

I feel this book was all of those feelings described, and we are more enriched for it.

Ciao for now~
 

[PatH]

Cynthia is one of the most difficult characters which have ever been attempted in our time.

Good point. Bellamarie.  Look at how much we've chewed over her character, and we can't help liking her in spite of herself.

She says she has told Mr. Henderson what she is like, and that he likes her that way.  I hope he really knows what he's getting into; I think he might well do OK.

Marcie, you weren't cutting me off, I was being fuzzy-headed.  Of course it's time to move on, and that never stops us from backtracking if we want to.

[Lucylibr]

At the end of Chapter 58, Mrs. Goodenough expresses her sense of impropiety about Molly's visit to Hamley Hall. She uses colloquial English which marks her station in life; she is "commonplace and unrefined." Nevertheless Molly overhears her comments to her granddaughter that Mrs. Gibson is sending Molly to visit with an awareness that Roger is likely to inherit Hamley Hall and it upsets Molly; since none of her family had expressed such a notion, how can it be an impropiety?  "But reasoning was of no use after Mrs. Goodenough's words had put fancies into Molly's head." So Molly feels she must avoid contact with Roger and concentrate on helping the squire. "Alas! the simplicity of their intercourse was spoilt henceforwards."  I think reputation is a theme of the book, how serious it is if a good reputation is lost and how maintaining one may limit one's relations with others. Cynthia had squandered hers and jeopardized Molly's. Both Mr. and Mrs, Gibson are concerned about the reputations of the girls in their care. This idea of people needing to live within society's standards pervades the book.

[bellamarie]

It was rather sad to see once again, gossip hurts Molly.  Mrs. Goodenough, now isn't it a bit ironic, how Mrs. Gaskell chose to name her that particular name Good enough?   She sure has decided to judge what is, and what is not, good enough for these young girls.  

I have to admit when I read the part about Molly overhearing this:

"Mrs. Gibson is sending Molly to visit with an awareness that Roger is likely to inherit Hamley Hall and it upsets Molly; since none of her family had expressed such a notion, how can it be an impropiety? "

And she then goes and avoids Roger, and acts so unlike her easy, self with him, I felt it took on a Harlequin Romance feel.  At this point, you know they should be together, but the thing that gets in the way to prevent it from happening, is something that could easily be sorted out, and in the end, it is inconsequential.  I sensed Gaskell was once again showing how judgments, expectations, and gossip can harm relationships and reputations.

Lucy, I agree...reputation is one of the themes of the book.

 

[Lucylibr]

Two passages I want to mention:

Talking with her brother at the Towers while Molly is visiting, Lady Harriet speaking of Roger after they had spoken of the possibility of Roger wanting to marry Molly but that he lacks a fortune:

"...a hundred things may happen--some one may leave him a fortune--or this tiresome little heir that nobody wanted, may die."

I thought that a harsh comment and not worthy of Lady H whom we have come to like and has helped and protected Molly.

And Mrs. Gibson in the last chapter says of Osborne's son:

"Poor little child! When one thinks how little his prolonged existence is to be desired, one feels that his death would be a boon."

Of course we expect such an attitude from Mrs. Gibson whose real values are money and prestige among the powerful. Molly promptly contradicts her and says how much every one cares for the little boy and how charming he is.

I'm just kind of amused that Mrs. Gaskell allowed her characters to entertain such crass thoughts, especially Lady Harriet. I can only say about the latter that this reveals a carelessness among the upper classes when they are by themselves and can make unguarded statements.  Perhaps Mrs. Gaskell was thinking of an easy solution to the plot, death, which she has already used in the case of Osborne.

[marcie]

Lucylibr, I think you said well, "This idea of people needing to live within society's standards pervades the book." Although "society's standards" are still in effect today, I think there are more holes that people can slip through to make personal choices.

Mrs. Gaskell is able to create a complex society with complex individuals. You're right, Pat, that with all of the flaws that Gaskell has given Cynthia, she is still a character that most of us like. I took the term "difficult," that the editor used, to mean that Gaskell created a dense, rich persona with flaws and subtle qualities.

[bellamarie]

I can't imagine someone wishing the fate of a small child, for the sake of someone else's fortune. This statement was so out of character for Lady Harriet.  I had to read it twice to be sure I had not read it wrong. 

"or this tiresome little heir that nobody wanted, may die."

Harriet took a huge liking to Molly instantly, but to imagine a sweet little baby boy to die, so Molly could marry Roger and he inherit the estate was rather harsh.  But Gaskell made all her characters with the human instincts and feelings good and bad.  A fleeting thought, that may never be audible.....but in fact she was thinking it.

Must run off to two grandchildren's basketball games, this morning, both my sons are the coaches and I am hoping they bring home the trophies they have worked so hard for.  Wish us luck!

Ciao for now~

[marcie]

Lady Harriet hasn't met the mother or baby. I think she is voicing "high society's" views without regard to the actual individuals. To her, they are probably just the "idea" of a lowly marriage and baby to a first son (the sort of shameful idea that the squire had wanted to avoid for his sons all his life).

Good luck to your teams, bellamarie. It's fun watching games in which you know the players/coaches.

[JoanP]

Yes, Lady Harriet has no association with the Hamley's...but I thought it was much more shocking when Mrs. Gibson made a similar observation - that it would be a boon if the little boy died.. because the Squire "deserved a better-born heir than a servant's offspring."  Mrs. Gaskell uses Mrs. Gibson to express  widely held views of the upper crust - which is more preposterous coming from her than from Lady Harriet, who doesn't know the family at all. Would  Roger be the heir if the baby were to die?   I vaguely remember something about the Irish Hamleys...
I don't even want to think of such a thing.

Haven't read the Concluding Remarks yet - BUT Netflix did sent a new DVD of the BBC production, looking forward to viewing that tonight.  I know they did their own ending, but would like to see how the characters were portrayed - expecially Cynthia.  Someone here referred to her as a "piece of work" - I really liked that description of the girl.

[Jonathan]

'And now cover me up close, and let me sleep, and dream about my dear Cynthia and my new shawl.'

The last paragraph is a great summing up of sorts, and how fitting that Clare should get the last words in Gaskell's unfinished novel. Putting her to rest  seems so appropriate. Although she has made such fun of her throughout the book, she has also reminded the reader, on the previous page, of Clare's 'grievances', 'envies', and 'annoyances'. Not to mention the many vexing anxieties throughout the book, or the sarcasms she gets from her husband. The life of a goveness!

And look who's tucking her in. Molly. Such beautiful symmetry in the book. It began with Molly being put to bed as a child, in Clare's 'little white bed in the cool and pretty room.' And 'Clare covered her up with a light shawl, and darkened the room.'

Framed by these two lovely scenes is the rest of the novel, aptly described by Frederick Greenwood in his postscript, and quoted by Bellamarie: 'an abominable  wicked world, crawling with selfishness and reeking with base passions...much weakness, many misdeeds, sufferings long and bitter.'

I'm not sure I can agree with Greenwood's opinion that 'little remains to be added to it.' To the unfinished book. That 'little' may have contributed to the author's sudden death. Too many insuperable difficulties standing in the way to a happy ending. Reinventing Roger was certainly one of them. She made a beginning with the pyhsical changes he came back with. After Cynthia he could be seen as damaged goods and he knew it. Determining the next Squire Hamley put the author under tremendous stress. Little Osborne's life is hanging by a thread, judging by the many comments on his fate from various characters already mentioned, including Lady Harriet, Clare, Miss Goodenough, the squire, Molly, and her father, the doctor who is proud of having saved the little boy's life. To me this seems like uncertainty on the author's part, perhaps even preparing the reader....

'My boyish love for Cynthia- her manners and her beauty bewitched me.'

His first love! Will that turn out to be the fondest memory? Perhaps the book would have been better titled by Brothers and Sisters. Those were the best and truest relationships in the book.

[Jonathan]

Hasn't it been a painful journey for the squire. Very touching to read about his grief in the face of death. His wife, His gamekeeper. His son. Gaskell depicted it each time with feeling and artistry. Perhaps she was also dreading the death of the grandson with a heavy heart for the squire's sake. Much left for the reader to ponder.

[bellamarie]

As for Cynthia and Molly, even though they were close, I never got an emotional attachment to their relationship as sisters, the way I did with Roger and Osborne.  I think the fact that Cynthia used Molly and then subbed her was something I had a difficult time with overcoming.  I loved Molly's kind heart and loyalty to Cynthia, regardless of how she mistreated her.  

I have five sisters, and a few of them are like Cynthia.  I was the Molly of the six sisters, so I immediately related to her always forgiving heart.  Maybe, this is why I just could not bring myself to like Cynthia.    

The relationship between Roger and Osborne was especially endearing to me.  In the beginning Lady Hamley and the Squire have all expectations on Osborne, saving the best wine for him.  Yet, Roger has a kind quiet soul, and shows absolutely no envy of his brother "the prodigal son."  Roger turns out to be highly regarded in the field of science, and is a success in his own right.  I was sorry Osborne had to die in this story, I would liked to have seen more of a story line with him and Aimee, and the Squire accepting them as a couple.  

This summed up Osborne and Roger so well:

Here are Osborne and Roger, two men who, in every particular that can be seized for description, are totally different creatures. Body and mind they are quite unlike. They have different tastes; they take different ways: they are men of two sorts which, in the society sense, never "know" each other ;  and yet, never did brotherly blood run more manifest than in the veins of those two. To make that manifest without allowing the effort to peep out for a single moment, would be a triumph of art; but it is a "touch beyond the reach of art" to make their likeness in unlikeness so natural a thing that we no more wonder about it than we wonder at seeing the fruit and the bloom on the same bramble: we have always seen them there together in blackberry season, and do not wonder about it nor think about it at all.

Any other author may have taken these two brothers and pitted them against each other, especially with the parents favoring Osborne so much, yet instead Gaskell turned them into their brother's keepers.  Absolutely wonderful!  

I have two sons  who are only a couple years a part, and they are now married with kids, and it amazes me how close they are, and active in each others lives, with no jealousy what so ever.  My first born son Mike was like Osborne, the scholar and all expectations on him, while my other son Jeremy, was more like Roger the physical outdoor type, given more the opportunity to be a bit more free in his choices.  They each are successful today in their own right, and as a parent I truly marvel at the respect, loyalty and love they have for each other.  A parent's treasure!  Jeremy coached his daughter's basketball team today and they were runner-ups.  Mike coached his son's team, and they won the Championship, and Jeremy sat on the bench helping Mike out throughout the game.  It so reminds me of Roger being there for Osborne, keeping his secret, helping him with his poems to be published, giving him his allowance, etc.  The true story I felt was this relationship, overshadowed by Cynthia and Molly.

I'm not sure I understand why Gaskell titled it "Wives and Daughters," if I were to have given this story a title I'm thinking I may have called it..... "In My Sibling's Shadow"

Ciao for now~

p.s. Thank you Marcie, we are so very proud of both teams.

[bellamarie]

Jonathon, Yes, my heart went out to the Squire throughout the book.  I am so glad the baby did not die.  I'm not sure I could have taken one more heartbreak for the Squire.  It was heaven sent, that the baby would get ill, and Aimee and the Squire cling to each other, in hope and prayer little Roger would pull through.  Did you also notice how Gaskell at first had the baby be called "Osborne," then later in the book, he is referred to as Roger.  That was interesting, because the Squire had insisted it be Osborne, because there were already two Rogers.

[Lucylibr]

Jonathan: your summing up of the ending and how it parallels the beginning is excellent. It is a most memorable way to recollect the book after all the enjoyment we have had reading it together.

[bellamarie]

I was browsing a bit yesterday and found a few interesting things:

"The Austen novel with which "Wives and Daughters" has the greatest affinities is "Mansfield Park". In both books the central male character (Roger/Edmund) is the younger son of an upper-class family, overshadowed by a flashier elder brother (Osborne/Tom), but steady, reliable and decent. In both books he is loved patiently and in secret by a quiet, demure girl (Molly/Fanny) but becomes infatuated with another woman, beautiful but flighty and superficial (Cynthia/Mary). In both cases the patient girl's devotion is rewarded with marriage to the man she loves; Mrs Gaskell died before she could write the final chapters of "Wives and Daughters", leaving it unfinished, but there can be little doubt that this is the ending that she intended. Mrs Gaskell left what may have been a deliberate hint that Austen's book was her inspiration; the Hamleys refer to Molly as "another Fanny", that being the name of their deceased daughter."


http://www.amazon.com/review/R2BEOMJ8KDXTIP/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R2BEOMJ8KDXTIP

"Gaskell and Charles Darwin were distantly related and they admired each other’s work—she modeled Roger Hamley of Wives and Daughters on Darwin."

http://janegs.blogspot.com/2009/11/top-ten-things-to-know-about-elizabeth_17.html

I can see the Roger/Darwin similarities.


   

[bellamarie]

I absolutely adore Gaskell's last conversations, Mr. and Mrs. Gibson have with each other...she kept Clare as shallow as ever, but the humor always saves her, and allows the reader to enjoy her, with Mr. Gibson's cajoling her.  These are too precious to not mention:  

" That last sentence contained the germ of Mrs. Gibson's present grievance. Having married Cynthia, as her mother put it—taking credit to herself as if she had had the principal part in the achievement—she now became a little envious of her daughter's good fortune in being the wife of a young, handsome, rich, and moderately fashionable man, who lived in London. She naïvely expressed her feelings on this subject to her husband one day when she was really not feeling quite well, and when consequently her annoyances were much more present to her mind than her sources of happiness.

"It is such a pity!" said she, "that I was born when I was. I should so have liked to belong to this generation."

"That's sometimes my own feeling," said he. "So many new views seem to be opened in science, that I should like, if it were possible, to live till their reality was ascertained, and one saw what they led to. But I don't suppose that's your reason, my dear, for wishing to be twenty or thirty years younger."  

"No, indeed. And I did not put it in that hard unpleasant way; I only said I should like to belong to this generation.

To tell the truth, I was thinking of Cynthia. Without vanity, I believe I was as pretty as she is—when I was a girl, I mean; I had not her dark eyelashes, but then my nose was straighter. And now look at the difference! I have to live in a little country town with three servants, and no carriage; and she with her inferior good looks will live in Sussex Place, and keep a man and a brougham, and I don't know what. But the fact is, in this generation there are so many more rich young men than there were when I was a girl."

"Oh, ho! so that's your reason, is it, my dear? If you had been young now you might have married somebody as well off as Walter?"

"Yes!" said she. "I think that was my idea. Of course I should have liked him to be you. I always think if you had gone to the bar you might have succeeded better, and lived in London, too. I don't think Cynthia cares much where she lives, yet you see it has come to her."

"What has—London?"

"Oh, you dear, facetious man. Now that's just the thing to have captivated a jury. I don't believe Walter will ever be so clever as you are. Yet he can take Cynthia to Paris, and abroad, and everywhere. I only hope all this indulgence won't develope the faults in Cynthia's character. It's a week since we heard from her, and I did write so particularly to ask her for the autumn fashions before I bought my new bonnet. But riches are a great snare."

"Be thankful you are spared temptation, my dear."
"No, I'm not. Everybody likes to be tempted. And, after all, it's very easy to resist temptation, if one wishes."

They're coming home! She's bought me a shawl and a bonnet! The dear creature! Always thinking of others before herself: good fortune cannot spoil her. They've a fortnight left of their holiday! Their house is not quite ready; they're coming here. Oh, now, Mr. Gibson, we must have the new dinner-service at Watts's I've set my heart on so long! 'Home' Cynthia calls this house. I'm sure it has been a home to her, poor darling! I doubt if there is another man in the world who would have treated his step-daughter like dear papa! And, Molly, you must have a new gown."

"Come, come! Remember I belong to the last generation," said Mr. Gibson.
     
Straight laugh out loud moments!!!  This melted my heart and I found there is no way I could end this book or discussion without admitting to loving Clare......just as she is!  Mr. Gibson and Molly, were Cynthia and Clare's, yin and yang.  I am placing Wives and Daughters on my shelf of "all time favorites," along side of Pride and Prejudice!!!

This was my first time ever reading Elizabeth Gaskell, but it will NOT be my last!

Ciao for now~

p.s.  Jonathon, I must say, since you read to the end of the book early, I can see why you insisted on liking and defending Clare and Cynthia.  It is not until the end of the book, Gaskell decides she wants her readers to really like them, just the way they are....flaws in all.  That really is what life is all about, accepting people at their worst, and not overlooking their best!

[bellamarie]

Jonathon, 

And look who's tucking her in. Molly. Such beautiful symmetry in the book. It began with Molly being put to bed as a child, in Clare's 'little white bed in the cool and pretty room.' And 'Clare covered her up with a light shawl, and darkened the room.'

How did I miss this?  Perfect ending!

[PatH]

Bellamarie, you've raised so many interesting points I hardly know where to start.  I'll first share a brief chuckle over that last conversation between Mr. and Mrs. Gibson.  ROFLOL funny, with Mrs. G totally unaware of the implications of what she is saying, or of the implications of her husband's remarks, and his ironic comments.'

Then on to Mansfield Park.  Have you read it?  Until you look at it closely, it seems to be the least likeable of Austen's novels, but it grows on you when you reread it.  YES, now that you mention it, there are all sorts of parallels.  It starts with the young Molly's terror when she goes to the Towers, compared to Fanny's fears when she first comes to live with the Bertrams.  The younger son, Edmund, comforts Fanny, and is her mentor as she grows up.  Edmund falls in love with Mary Crawford, the Cynthia equivalent.  Mary is more worldly and sophisticated than Cynthia, but very careful with her own behavior.  Not with her opinions and language, though, and she actually utters the one dirty joke in all of Austen.  (Yes, really, there is one, discretely phrased, read the book and find it.)

Unlike Molly, Fanny seems to be aware of her attachment to Edmund from an early age.  She strikes me as one of those persons who doggedly sits next to something they want until everyone gives up and lets them have it, and she sort of does this here with Edmund.  The ending makes total sense, though.

[marcie]

Jonathan, I appreciate your pointing out the parallel in the beginning and ending that we have from Mrs. Gaskell. And Bellamarie, those exerpts are very funny. You're right, PatH, that Mrs. Gibson seems oblivious to her husband's comments. That adds to the humor.

As you say, Bellamarie, Mrs. Gaskell seems to appreciate the characters she created and though she shows their faults, she doesn't put them in such a bad light that we can't enjoy them.


JoanP, let us know what you think of the film. I have a copy of the DVD too but haven't watched it yet. Maybe we can keep this discussion open for a few days to see if anyone has more thoughts about the book or the film. I don't think I would have enjoyed the book as much if I hadn't heard everyone's comments about it. I think that a comparison of Wives and Daughters to Mansfield Park would be a lot of fun.

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  No, I have not read Mansfield Park, but I am going to read it now, since I don't think I would be interested in Blue Highway with the club.  I also want to begin The Book Thief that has been sitting on my desk for a month now, so I can then watch the movie.  I was going to see the movie in the theaters but my granddaughter who read The Book Thief in high school, recommended reading the book first.  

I want to thank all the moderators of Wives and Daughters, you ladies once again, did a marvelous job!  This was a difficult book, a funny book, a book of  stereotyping, prejudice, modernizing, etiquette,  manners (good and bad) as Lucy felt, a book of relationships as Jonathon felt, and a book with many prisms as I felt.  Gaskell kept our interest, in spite of a few places seeming long and repetitive.  I will never forget these characters in this book, because each of them resemble a person I have known in real life.  When an author can have her readers relating to her characters, as real life human beings, with flaws and unkind personalities, yet just enough, not too much so that you still see or search, for the goodness in them........she has accomplished a prize winning novel!  My only regret is that Gaskell died too soon, and we will not have as many books to read from her.  Her death before completing the last chapter, which is what we were told is where she died in this book, did in no way where I am concerned left anything unsaid, or undone.  

We could see Molly and Roger would find their way to each other, we could see Mr. Gibson was madly in love with Clare in spite of his teasing, you could see Clare loves Mr. Gibson even though she wishes she could live in this generation, and we could see the Squire would accept Aimee, because he must in order to have the loving relationship with his sweet little grandson.  He knew he wasted too much time in life harboring silent feelings, good or bad, where Osborne was concerned, and he was not going to risk his relationship with his grandson, by repeating the same mistakes.  As for Lady Harriet and Preston, they were integral characters in the story, but in the end, not necessary to know more about, so to prolong the book that is already a large read, would not have been wise.  We got a clear visual from the concluding chapter, of the beauty and success, Molly and Roger would share in their lives together, once he returned from Africa.  The nosegay was the symbol of their love, and wilted as it may have been when he returned, their love would hold the lasting beauty of it the day he gave it to her.  Jonathon, Yet one more symmetry in the story....the nosegay from Roger Hamley to Molly.  I sensed when Roger sent that first nosegay, he was already in love with Molly, and just got mesmerized and sidetracked by Cynthia's beauty, as all the rest of the men did.

I absolutely LOVED Mr. Gibson in this story.  He was firm when needed, he was a selfless husband, father, doctor and friend, and without his humor I would not have grown to appreciate, and come to accept Clare or Cynthia.  As I said before.....if he could forgive, accept and love them, so can I!

Until our next discussion....Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

PatH...I'll dig out Mansfield Park to refresh memory - not to look for JA's only dirty joke...though I admit I'm curious...can't imagine it!

Marcie, I have read the Editor's  remarks...and watched the first DVD of the story...which covers the first two episodes...up to the time Roger leaves for Africa.  Have mailed it back and should get the next one very soon.  So far I'm not seeing an evil Cynthia in this production - on the contrary.  I see a young woman who finds in Molly a young woman, her own age, who is capable of loving others in a way that is foreign to herself.  She marvels at this; she is seems wistful, sad that she cannot love as Molly does.  As you watch the beautiful Mrs. Gibson, - and listen to her, it becomes clear  how Cynthia grew up with a warped view of love...loving.

What did you think of the introduction of Mrs. Gibson's first love, Lieutenant Harper, at the end of the completed chapters?  I wonder if she would have had more to say about how this affair affected her in the final chapters, had she lived.

Bella  - you might want to read the discussion of The Book Thief in the SeniorLearn Archives.  That was quite a spirited discussion, full of a lot of good information and links.  
I'll echo your thanks to all the participants and Discussion Leaders.  A long book, not an easy read as we thought at the onset.  Everyone stuck together for two whole months!  Thanks, ALL!

[Jonathan]

A charming post, Bellamarie. Your enthusiasm and your insights have been the greatest inspiration and motivation in this spirited discussion. And many thanks to the one who proposed Wives and Daughters  for discussion. An amazing tale.

What Gaskell had to do to uncover everybody's secrets. And they all had them. I'll always remember the squire's words of anguish: 'Why didn't he tell me'?

Thanks to everyone. What fun to read along with you all and to share your thougts.

[JoanP]

You're wry remarks have been much appreciated, Jonathan!  Always right on -  Guaranteed to bring on a smile!  Thank you!  To the end, your defense of Clare was admirable.  You seem to see something in her that the rest of us did not fully appreciate.

Annie, I found some important clues as to where Mrs. Gaskell was going with the story from these remarks from the editor.  Yes, it's clear that she will marry Roger (though I'm not sure how he can count on no other suitors while he is abroad.  Remember that Molly has grown into an  attractive young woman now) - the young men at the Towers were swarming around her at the Towers).  About those concluding observations from the editor.  Important to remember that Mrs. Gaskell did not know she was going to die when she had conversations with him, so she most likely did not volunteer all of her plans for  the final chapters  But what she did let on to him was revealing.

"If any one suffers for it, it is Mr. Gibson. This refers to Molly's departure to live in London.) He looks forward to running up to London "to stay with Molly for a few days now and then,"  and "to get a little rest from Mrs. Gibson."  I can only imagine what his life was like in this empty nest.
 
 When the editor refers to  an "abominable wicked world, crawling with selfishness and reeking with base passions, into one where there is much weakness, many mistakes, sufferings long and bitter" I  never really thought he was saying that of Mrs. Gaskell's world.   I didn't see base selfishness,  weakness perhaps in Cynthia. Cynthia was torn between following her mother's directives - and responding to the admiration of others, which she desperately needed.  Not  "abominable selfishness."

The editor again - when discussing the contrast between Roger and Osborne..."To be sure, Cynthia "belongs to the kind of characters...conceived only by hands obedient to the finest motions of the mind. Viewed in this light, Cynthia is a more important piece of work even than Molly, delicately as she is drawn."  I'm ready to give Cynthia a pass -and extend every hope that her future is a happy one with Mr. Henderson, having learned much from Molly about constancy in love.

[marcie]

Regarding the editor's remarks: "While you read any one of the last three books we have named, you feel yourself caught out of an abominable wicked world, crawling with selfishness and reeking with base passions, into one where there is much weakness, many mistakes, sufferings long and bitter, but where it is possible for people to live calm and wholesome lives; and, what is more, you feel that this is at least as real a world as the other."

What I thought he was saying is that the actual world of the time may have been seen (at times) as an abominable wicked world, crawling with selfishness and reeking with base passions but Mrs. Gaskell catches us out of that world into one that she has skillfully created where there is much weakness, many mistakes, sufferings long and bitter, but where it is possible for people to live calm and wholesome lives. I agree with his assessment that you feel that this is at least as real a world as the other.

I enjoyed the book very much. More so because of everyone's contributions to the discussion. Thank you very much.

The PBS series website has lots of interesting information at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/wives/whos_who.html

In the left column you can click on more links including one to an excerpt from the novel and, below it, how the dialog in the film was adapted.

What a cast!! http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/wives/whos_who_credits.html

[bellamarie]

I began reading Mansfield Park today, I am up to chapter XI and indeed there are many similarities jumping out at me.  I am sadly missing the Gaskell humor, that was so much fun in Wives and Daughters.  Mansfield Park is a bit dry, and tedious so far, but I already like the characters, and plot so I shall stay with it. There are short chapters, and only 279 pages if I am not mistaken. (I am reading it online.)Should be done quickly to go on to The Book Thief!

PatH., Thank you for the heads up:

"you might want to read the discussion of The Book Thief in the SeniorLearn Archives.  That was quite a spirited discussion, full of a lot of good information and links."

[PatH]

Bellamarie, we discussed Mansfield Park here too, but it seems to be one that got lost in the switch.  One of the important events of the book is the young people's staging of the play Lover's Vows, by Elizabeth Inchbald.  It's available on line, and it's worth reading it, because you can see that Austen was using the play as a framework for that part of the book, and maybe even sculpted her characters to fit.

[bellamarie]

PatH.  I am on chapter XVIII of Mansfield Park, they have finally decided who will play all the characters in the play, Lover's Vows.  Edmund is so against the play, but has to give in to playing Anhalt, since he does not want any outsiders involved.  And poor Fanny is scared to death to play the cottager's wife.

So far the comparisons I see to Wives and Daughters are:

Tom is like Osborne, he is the eldest brother, who has foolishly spent family money.
Edmund is like Roger, who is to become a clergy, and is Fanny's protector and adviser.
Fanny is of course like Molly, a bit naive and is secretly caring for Edmund as Molly did Roger, seeing it as brotherly love.
Miss Crawford reminds me of Cynthia, only in the way she can be a bit manipulating, and is smitten with Roger, and she seems to want to be friendly with Fanny to impress Edmund.
Julia and Maria Betram (sisters), could be a bit like Cynthia and Molly, but it's a bit of a leap for me. 

Other than those similarities, I have to say at this point, no more are jumping out to me. I'm hoping this book gets more enjoyable, so far it's very dry, and boring for me, especially after coming off of reading Wives and Daughters.

[JoanP]

Finally received the last episode of the BBC production of Wives and Daughters - I really did like the casting...Justine Waddell was perfect as Molly.   Have to wonder what Elizabeth Gaskell would have thought of the ending.  Molly and Roger in Africa.  Maybe it's just what she had planned after all! 
(Noticed too that Justine W. was born in South Africa.)

I think one  of the most outstanding differences between Molly Gibson and Fanny Price was their childhood...Molly was a happy and child, brought up with the love of her father and her mother's friends.  Elizabeth Gaskell was able to inject humor into the story without compromising the underlying serious issues of the story.

Haven't had a chance to go back and reread Mansfield Park, but do remember back when we read it here - that it seemed to be missing Jane Austen's wit. Her rather joyless heroine seemed to snuff all the lightness and humor that we enjoyed in Wives and Daughters.

Pat and JoanK, you two are life-long Austenites...can you comment on how Mansfield Park is regarded, compared to other works of JA?

[PatH]

I think most Austenites would say it was their least favorite book.  I got to like it better when we discussed it, and I thought it over more carefully, but it's probably my least favorite too, with Northanger Abbey close.

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  I am going to say, at this point of the story, I would agree with you about this being a least favorite. 

JoanP., Yes, Molly was brought up a happy child, but Fanny was also happy while with her family.  She seems such a timid character.  I like the relationship Fanny has with her older brother William. 

[JoanP]

Mansfield Park - you agree is the least favorite of all Jane Austen's books.  Not as agreeable as Wives and Daughters,Pat  I suppose the next question has got to be - WHY?

[Jonathan]

Wives and Daughters certainly turned out to be something unusual with its strange mix of light and serious. It did give one much to think about. I can't explain it, but I kept wondering if there was something of Charlotte Bronte in Molly. Perhaps it was that governess, Miss Eyre, that suggested it.

What does one read next after such a good book. I think I've found it. Right there in my TBR stack: Fathers And Sons, by Alexander Waugh, grandson of Evelyn. Looks promising. Alexander goes rummaging in the Waugh closets.

[JoanP]

Jonathan - This week  we're collecting nominations for April's group discussion in the Suggestion Box Why don't you nominate Fathers and Sons?  We'll be voting next week.

[bellamarie]

Good question Jonathon,

What does one read next after such a good book.

I just finished Mansfield Park by Jane Austen, and was so terribly disappointed.  You can't come off such a great read as Wives and Daughters and not feel let down with anything less than Gaskell's fine mix of drama, humor, relationships, family, etc.  

Never throughout the entire story did I root for Fanny and Edmund, the way I did for Molly and Roger.  There was a brotherly love with each set, but Fanny was such a boring, sanctimonious personality, I just didn't feel connected to her like I was with Molly.  I must say when she was sent back to her home, and the way she despised her parents and their house, was hard for me to comprehend.  There she seemed ungrateful and spoiled, just as Mr. Betram felt she was at his home.  No, Mr. Crawford was not the one for her, but I just felt like she was terribly judgmental of everyone.  Not one of Austen's finest novels.

Now I contemplate beginning The Book Thief, hmmmm....

[marcie]

I haven't read Mansfield Park recently but I've read it a couple of times and I don't remember that I had as negative reaction to it as you did, Bellamarie. It may be because I had not just read Wives and Daughters in which the contrast with the very good Molly and Cynthia, who is hurtful to Molly, makes Molly's goodness shine rather than seem sanctimonious. I've seen a couple of film adaptations of the novel and in the 1983 version starring Sylvestra Le Touzel as Fanny Price, I thought that Fanny seemed sanctimonious. In the 1999 film directed by Patricia Rozema, starring Frances O'Connor as Fanny and Jonny Lee Miller as Edmund Bertram, Fanny was quite feisty.

Anyway, I do agree with you that Wives and Daughters was a great read with, as you say "Gaskell's fine mix of drama, humor, relationships, family, etc." 

[PatH]

Fanny is somewhat sanctimonious, but so is Edmund.  Their standards are the same.  (This is a sticking point with Mary Crawford--she doesn't want to be married to a clergyman.)  In the end, Edmund realizes how like they are, and how comforting a presence she is. 

[PatH]

Reading Wives and Daughters, I was amazed at how good it is.  It's inevitable to compare the book to Austen's works, and it holds its own.  Austen is the better writer, and her plots are more carefully constructed.  Her humor is more understated and subtle.  With Austen, you smile, with Gaskell you laugh out loud.  Her scope is narrower.  To quote JoanK: "Austen is like a microscope, a narrow field of vision, but in that field she doesn't miss the tiniest detail".

Gaskell has a wider scope.  Sometimes I found myself saying "Austen would never have written that".   G can portray a wider range of social classes well and sympathetically.  Look at the wonderful scene in which Lady Harriet calls on the Browning sisters and catches Miss Browning with her head tied up in a shabby old silk cap.  A would never have gotten that right.  And Gaskell sympathizes with some very flawed characters, which Austen would not have done.

Beside that, this book has been a really delightful read.  When it was suggested, I wondered if it would be a good choice, but I sure was wrong there.  I'm very grateful to all of you, for suggesting it, and for making this such a good discussion, pointing out all the things I didn't see.  It's been a lot of fun.  Thank you all.

[JoanP]

Thanks, Pat.  I think you've summed up what many of us  are feeling about this novel.  I read a review somewhere in which it was suggested that the reason Elizabeth Gaskell  has not been given her due was because her novels were in print only in installments, not the lasting novels one finds on the library shelf.  
So happy it was suggested here and that our readers brought it to life.

Thanks everyone!  Hope to see you all again real soon!