Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll

[Jonathan]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

April/May Book Club Online ~ Starting April 15

Alice in Wonderland
by Lewis Carroll

Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (commonly called Alice in Wonderland) was written in 1865 by English author Charles Lutwidge Dodgson under the pseudonym Lewis Carroll. We can enjoy the novel as a fantasy as well look for the amusing examples of logic contained throughout. Whether or not you've read the story as a child or adult, we welcome you to share our adventures in wonderland.

Discussion Schedule:    April 15-20 Opening Poem; Chapters 1 and 2

Some Questions to Consider
Let's share information, as it becomes relevant throughout the book, from any introductions, footnotes or other sources we find.
Let's keep a list of characters we meet, as well as animals that are mentioned in the poems and ballads.

April 15-20 Opening Poem; Chapters 1 and 2

Opening Poem
1. What kinds of information do you find in the opening poem?
2. What mood does the poem set for the story?

Chapter 1: Down the Rabbit Hole
1. What do you think of the first several paragraphs of the story?
2. What events or thoughts of Alice falling down the rabbit hole do you find especially interesting?
3. What humorous elements do you see when Alice finds the gold key and then finds the bottle with the label, 'Drink me'?
4. What are some of the morals that Alice remembers when she finds the bottle?
5. What other thoughts do you have about this chapter?

Chapter 2: The Pool of Tears
1. As Alice feels different, in great part to growing and shrinking so many times, she begins to wonder if she's been changed into someone else. In literal fashion she tries to compare herself to some of her friends to see if she might be one of them, who are not as clever as she. What do you think of some of the "fact" games she tries?
2. Have you found the original poem for which "How doth the little crocodile...." is a parody?
3. What parts of the conversation Alice has with the mouse do you find especially humorous?
4. What other related background have you found or what other thoughts do you have about this chapter?

You can read the novel online

Discussion Leaders:  PatH and Marcie

I've just located an Annotated Alice in our library system and should have it in a few days. I wish I had asked you to send me that marked-up copy, Bellamarie. It sounds to me like something someone was using to do a doctoral thesis!

I find it very difficult choosing between Dr Freud's  defense mechanisms and excuses, and Dr Phil's accountability solution for getting out of life's nasty scrapes. Let's ask Alice.

My cat, Lucky, says he would be delighted to participate in the discussion. He seems to know something about it. He seems to think that Alice wasn't getting the right message from the grinning Cheshire. It's a cat's tail that one must watch to get a clear meaning.

Isn't it fun trying to communicate with animals. And it can be so therapeutic. I often wonder if Saint Francis needed the birds to whom he preached more than they needed him. And haven't we always been told by the wisemen to observe some animal species or other and to see a role model in them? And here is Alice to introduce them all to us avid readers. The wisdom they show is truly astounding.

[marcie]

Bellamarie and Jonathan, I'm glad that you have your annotated versions lined up.  I hadn't thought about Alice as being an animal book but you're right, Jonathan, that it has lots of animals to perplex and enlighten Alice. Maybe we'll keep a count/list of them.

[bellamarie]

Oh Jonathon, I am so happy you got an Annotated copy of Alice.  I would have been happy to mail that copy to you, although, I tried desperately to decipher the handwriting and could not make out much at all. 

Marcie, My three year old grand daughter Zoey is enamored with the animals in Alice.  All she can talk about is the rabbit and keeps asking me, "Nonnie is that rabbit bad?"  Why do you suppose she sees him as bad?  Oh, and now Humpty Dumpty is becoming her fascination.  At lunch time today she insisted I read, MY copy of Alice.  I loved how the five year old daycare little girl Gracie knew every single animal, and as I read the first chapter she kept interrupting me to tell me what happens next.  I seriously have never watched the movie, nor read the story before, so she was truly impressing me. 

Jonathon you get your cat Lucky, and I'll get Zoey and Gracie and we can let them give us their interpretations, since I no longer have the doctoral thesis scribbles.  

Okay off to bed, for me.  One more day to go, and I am on spring break!!!  Sleeping in, no kids, and do what ever I want, when ever I want is the best way to spend my week off.   Although we will be going to the indoor water park three hours away, Sunday and Monday, with my son's family, yes, Zoey is included, she and her six year old brother Zak must say, Nonnie a thousand times when we are together.  We are also going to the Wright Air Force Museum, so their twelve year old brother can see it, he is determined to join the Marines when he graduates school.  My hubby is thrilled to go since he served four years in the Air Force.

Ciao for now~

[Jonathan]

Bellamarie, I'm envious. What a great spring break you have planned, with your husband and the grands, at the water park and the WAF Museum. I've always wanted to pay that place a visit. It has a great reputation. We'll want to hear about when you get back.

It does bring back the wonder to see things through the eyes of a child.

[bookad]

Well we just arrived  home last night - Orillia, Ontario.....can`t believe it there was practically no snow all thru the drive and then when we hit Orillia practically every year was full of snow


pulled into a Toledo, Michigan Barnes and Noble and was able to get the `definitive annotated version `.....love the fact that this means reading more than just the book of Àlice in Wonderland`

Deb

[marcie]

Bellamarie and Jonathan, it will be fun to see Alice through the eyes of a child and your cats 

Deb, I'm glad you got back without too much trouble and that you, too, have the annotated version.

[Frybabe]

I picked up Alice at the library on Friday. It is indeed the Definitive Edition. So far I have just read the introductions.

[marcie]

Frybabe, We'll start slow in talking about Alice in Wonderland, starting on April 15. We'll likely just talk about the first two chapters during the first week and then see how the pace suits us for the rest of the weeks.

[BarbStAubrey]

For me I am passing - hated this book even though the last time I sprung for the large annotated copy I ended up giving it to a girl who helped me clean out my closets - for some reason this author gives me the creeps - sincerely in spite of my personal feelings hope y'all really have a good time with this (said in a good sense) zany bit of chaos.

[marcie]

I'm sorry you won't be with us, Barbara.

[marcie]

We'll be starting our discussion of the book tomorrow (Tuesday). We'll talk about the opening poem and the first two chapters this week.

If you haven't already indicated what version of the book you're reading, please let us know.

I have the Norton Critical edition and I've borrowed the "Definitive Annotated Alice" from the library.

As we read and talk about the book, let's share information, as it becomes relevant, from any introductions, footnotes or other sources we find.

It might be fun to keep a list of characters we meet, as well as animals that are mentioned in the poems and ballads. Since Jonathan mentioned it, I've noticed alot of references to various animals.

[Frybabe]

Good morning!

I haven't started reading chapters yet. I am a little leery of the author after reading in the intro that Carrol had a predilection for little girls, and especially focused on one. Creepy is right Barb. That bit of knowledge may color my reading.

Why is it that so many (or so it seems sometimes) famous artists are riddled with perversions of various sorts? It is disappointing to discover such in authors I like.

[bookad]

good morning everyone

woke up the morning to a winterwonderland.....and our snow was almost gone yesterday

when I think of the book ....I see 'gene wilder's character' and his zany sense of spirit....not sure if he was the mad hatter

looking forward to thoughts on the book....that review I read online from someone who is into this book in a big way, seems to me she said almost every two weeks she gets back into the book.... that intrigued me,...  I don't really think I've read the book before

...a couple of times having read about an author has spoiled me from reading further books by him/her....hope this doesn't happen this time

Deb

[marcie]

Good morning all!
Frybabe, there seems to be divergent views on Carroll's feelings about young girls, against the background of the Victorian era. At least one biography, which may be naive, finds no impropriety. It's by Jenny Woolf. See an interesting review at http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/books/2010/03/what_lewis_carroll_taught_us.html

Maybe we can talk about that controversy at the end of our discussion so, as Deb suggests, we don't color our reading and discussion with it.

[bookad]

I think I may have mentioned earlier that I had a copy of this book in Ontario; and I find it is an old one with no year published that I can find on the book; but it was published by Blackie & Son Ltd., Glasgow, Great Britain.......illustrations by David Walsh....looking up online it appears the copyright ended about 1950 and there is a site showing the illustrators of the book (and there are quite a few) and this gentleman was about 1954 when he illustrated the book. ...I prefer the original illustrator to this one....going to see if I can find some other books with different illustrators to compare....

Deb

[bellamarie]

I have to say I knew little to nothing about Carroll until reading the intro and then Google, that being said I almost decided NOT to read Alice.  I was very turned off knowing he is suspected of having a fixation on little girls, especially taking nude photos.  What parent would allow this?  It reminded me of Michael Jackson.  But...I do want to read and discuss the book, hopefully with an open mind.  I can say this information is at the fore front even though I don't want it to be.

We are driving home from Cinncinati so I will have to post again when I get home since I left my reading glasses at home.

Ciao for now

[JoanP]

First day - loved the first questions on the opening poem...something I never paid attention to before, except to note the three Liddell sisters in the boat listening to the story as Carroll, (Charles Dodson) told it as they rowed a boat one summer afternoon. It's funny - if you didn't know the whimsical Wonderland story that follows such an introduction, you'd think a more romantic tale would follow.
   Now that I really  focus on the poem, I see that the poem is written as a sweet memory of the afternoon, as if the author is remembering a dream of an idyllic day in the past, in which he amuses the three girls with the story that follows.  

How many times does Carroll refer to the golden afternoon as a dream ~ "the dreamy weather," "the dream-child"...

" where Childhood's dreams are twined,
In Memories mystic band,
Like pilgrim's wither'd wreath of flowers
Plucked in a far off land."

From the notes in the Annotated edition: Carroll photographed the real Alice with flowers on her head -
Anne Clark wrote a  biography of Lewis Carroll - The real Alice: Lewis Carroll's dream child
This is the cover of her book - Carroll's  photograph:

A few more photos of Alice by the author:

[bluebird24]

I read gutenberg chapter 1 and 2. Do we read chapter 3 and 4 next week?
The fan and glove are magic.
I have a question.
What bird is a lory?
Thank you JoanP.

[bluebird24]

http://www.logicville.com/doublets.htm

[marcie]

Deb, I hope you find another copy of the book with illustrations that you like.

Joan, that's interesting that you found so many references to a "dream" in the opening poem. Alice is sleepy in the beginning of the story and what follows is certainly dream-like in many ways.

Those photos of the real "Alice" are of a very interesting child. She seems older than her years. Her short hair is so different than the Alice illustrated in the story.

 I understand that the last name of the Liddle girls rhymes with "fiddle" and "little." I can just hear Lewis Carroll reciting the poem and emphasizing "little."

All in the golden afternoon
Full leisurely we glide;
For both our oars, with little skill,
By little arms are plied,
While little hands make vain pretence
Our wanderings to guide.

[marcie]

Bluebird, yes, I think we'll be moving on to Chapters 3 and 4 next week. If the pace is too slow, we can speed it up at the end of this week.

There seems to be a lot of "magic" in the first chapter, including the fan and the glove, yet (like in a dream), Alice accepts everything starting with the talking White Rabbit.

There is a picture of a beautiful Lory, with some information about them at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lories_and_lorikeets

There are lots more photos at https://www.google.com/search?q=lory+bird&client=firefox-a&hs=1mx&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=WvxNU53II8jayAHRrYCIDQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1457&bih=977

[PatH]

Thanks for the link to doublets, bluebird.  I never knew those puzzles were invented by Lewis Carroll.  I'm not very good at them.

[Frybabe]

A confession: I always thought Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass were the same book, just titled differently. It does not seem to be a particularly unusual occurrence, especially when a book is published overseas.

[JoanP]

Fry...your mention of the two titles reminds me of something I read years ago - though the memory is dim, in need of refreshing.  The memory concerns the theory that Carroll might have written both stories to be considered together - to represent the Zodiac.

It might be fun to look at the characters we meet in the Wonderland book to see if we recognize any of the twelve signs..

Here's one article I found that addresses this idea:

"Curiouser and curiouser we thought, we read the books and realised that there is a strong possibility that Lewis Carroll's famous two stories of Alice did appear to match the Celestial Heavens. We are no mathematicians, however, the probability of writing a book which stars young Alice, who was so obviously a virgin (Virgo), where she meets other strange characters such as the twins (Gemini), a lion (Leo), a mock turtle (Taurus), plus many other characters which match a celestial counterpart (father William -Hercules, Humpty Dumpty -The Serpent Holder, White knight - Sagittarius) seems somewhat unusual, unless this of course this is what Carroll/Dodgson secretly intended."
http://globemakers.com/facsimile/globe_alice.html

[JoanP]

Reading the first paragraphs brought me back to the first time I read this story.  It wasn't curiosity to learn what would happen next.  It was more like a panic attack!  How would Alice ever get home?  If this was a dream...and I can see now that it was...to seven year old me, it was a nightmare.  This little girl was falling deeper and deeper underground in the dark...and no one above ground had any idea where she was!

[PatH]

Now that you say that, Joan, I'm surprised the opening didn't panic me too in a slightly different way.  Being trapped in a tight space with no way out has always been one of my fears.  I guess it seemed fantastical enough not to be real.

[JoanP]

Don't think I stayed panicked too long, but there were dark, almost sinister moments.  I wasn't a scaredy cat as a kid, but found the tale unsettling.  Maybe that's the attraction of the story ~ fear keeps you interested in what happens next?
 As she was falling, Alice  said something about how she wouldn't say anything even if she fell off the top of  the house...and the author adds, "which was very likely true."  She'd be dead?  

My annotated note says this was the first death joke in the story - with "many more to come!"

[marcie]

Interesting about the panic you felt, Joan. I guess I either didn't pay close enough attention to the story as I read it as a child or I just went with Alice's feelings that everything was sort of making sense, from the talking rabbit on (like a dream makes sense while you are dreaming but afterward becomes non-sense!)

We'll have to keep our eyes out for the "death jokes."

I'll  have to check out that Zodiac article, Joan.

[bellamarie]

I can tell you that when I was reading the first chapter at story time to my three year old grand daughter Zoey,(who for some reason has gotten a strong interest in this book) and daycare child Gracie, who is five years old, the look on their faces was certainly a bit of fear, as to what is going to happen to Alice.  When I read Alice saying, "I must be getting somewhere near the center of the earth." and then she says, "I wonder if I shall fall right through the earth!"  How funny it'll seem to come out among the people that walk with their heads downwards!  Zoey and Gracie's eyes were that of fear and wonderment, and Gracie says, "Do the people really walk with their heads down?  One of our favorite story time books is Topsy Turvey Tracey the Upside Downer Day, and Gracie said before I could reply,  "Oh like upside down Tracey?"

Then when I read Alice saying, "Dinah'll miss me very much to-night, I should think!"  Zoey said, "Aw her kitty will be sad."

I thought to myself, geez, this story seems a bit traumatizing for my sweet three year old grand daughter.  What ever was this author thinking, and why is it considered a children's story?  Not to mention, Zoey has become obsessed with the big white rabbit with pink eyes, and won't stop talking about it.

This book is way beyond imagination for a small child, and possibly even me, when you bring in the knowledge of the author, then the zodiac references, and all the other elements of what is actually in the book.  Who knew?  I am so glad we have the annotated copy to help us understand some of the thought process behind the writing.

[marcie]

Bellamarie, thanks for sharing the reactions of the little ones. The youngest of the Liddell girls was age 8 when Lewis Carroll told them the story. 

And Martin Gardner says that his notes are written for adults.

[bluebird24]

http://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A0LEVihy_k5TfWcAxItjmolQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBsa3ZzMnBvBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--?_adv_prop=image&fr=goodsearch-yhsif&sz=all&va=charles+dodgson+family




click on picture you want to look at

[marcie]

I've re-read the opening poem again and I very much admire it. I think it provides a perfect setting for the story. The narrator speaks with irony and whimsy. I think that Lewis Carroll loved telling stories to the three sisters and loved to pretend that it was a great chore. The notes say that he would pretend to fall asleep at key points during a story and have to be prodded awake to finish. The following stanza is such fun:

Ah, cruel Three! In such an hour
Beneath such dreamy weather,
To beg a tale of breath too weak
To stir the tiniest feather!
Yet what can one poor voice avail
Against three tongues together?

The next stanza paints a vivid picture of the personalities of the three sisters:

Imperious Prima flashes forth
Her edict to begin it
In gentler tone Secunda hopes
"There will be nonsense in it!"
While Tertia interrupts the tale
Not more than once a minute.

Bellamarie, your young charges seem to be somewhat like the youngest Liddell sister in interupting your story to ask questions or to comment.

[PatH]

So many pictures, bluebird!  It's hard to know which ones to look at first.  Thanks.

JoanP, as a stargazer, I got a real kick out of Alice's celestial globe.  Those interpretations are pretty hilarious.  I'll try to notice if we get just 6 of the zodiac characters in this book, and if they're in order.  The odd unfamiliar constellations are in the southern hemisphere, which has fewer interesting constellations.

I wouldn't want the globe, though; it's too hard to relate to the actual sky.

[bellamarie]

Thanks, bluebird, for the pics, it's always nice to put faces to the persons.  Marcie, yes, I think my two interested little ones are a bit too young for this story.  Zoey came to spend the night today, and the first thing she said when she walked in the door was, "Nonnie, will you read me Alice in Wonderland?"  I told her maybe later.  Of course later, never came.  I think I will pick and choose certain pages to read to her that are not to dramatic.  She fell asleep watching Frozen.  Marcie, I did like how we got a glimpse of the girls in that particular stanza.

I finished reading chapter two and all the annotations, and I find myself going back and re reading these pages so many times over.  There really is so much hidden, in these pages.  Who ever said, "A book, is just a book." may never have read Alice.

[marcie]

bluebird, I missed the photos you posted. Thank you!

Photography was in it's infancy when Lewis Carroll became interested in it. This site says he is considered one of the best amateur photographers of his time: http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10253869

This site shows all of the equipment he would have used: http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10253869

It looks like both the photographer and the subject would need a lot of patience. Also, when an art form or technology is in its infancy, expectations are certainly different for it. Both the cumbersome apparatus and procedures and the newness of it,  must have influenced the end results. Many of the poses are fairly exotic.

[JoanP]

   

When my sons were younger, they loved to go caving or "spelunking" in one of Virginia's many caves.  First, as cub scouts, they'd go to Luray Caverns, with guides...highly civilized and safe - electric lights throughout.  Later they would go in more primitive caves, no electricity, relying on the little battery operated lamps strapped to their heads to help them see their way around.  Each time they went, I had my heart in my throat, not resting until they got home.  (They always came home!  Full of stories about the bats, nesting in crevices or rocks, or hanging overhead in huge numbers.)  My biggest fear was they would not be able to find the point of entry and would be lost underground.  Another feeling I experience again reading this story.

[JoanP]

Until Alice figures out how to get through the little door into the lovely garden, I'm still shivvering at the bottom of the rabbit hole with her - with the bats, trying to let go of the initial fear I have always had when reading this story.  First there was the falling, falling .... Then she's missing her cat as she sees the bats, wondering if cats eat bats... (the answer is yes - the danger, bats are often rabid) 
Path, yes, that was another fear when she finally reaches the bottom of the whole, trapped in a small space, no way to get out - with the knowledge that no one knows where she is.  Add to this yet another mystery...perhaps nothing sinister about it, but when she decided she couldn't even get her head through the tiny door, she turned around to see a little table on which she sees a little bottle labelled, "DRINK ME" - "which certainly was not here before."
So where did that bottle come from?  Who put it there?  Is there someone in the tunnel with her, watching her?  

 Was the author trying to frighten the Liddell children simply to pique their interest in the story?  Kids enjoy ghost stories and mysteries, to experience the thrill and desire to know what will happen next.  Marcie, thank you for the examples of Carroll's humor - and irony as he makes the children beg for more.

I'm ready to get out...I guess I'd drink the mysterious potion too.  At this point what does she have to lose?  After all, it doesn't say "poison" on the bottle!

[PatH]

All this scary stuff: this isn't the first story Carroll had told his three little friends, and I'm guessing he knew his audience pretty well, and what they could handle.  It's like the cartoons we watched as children; the cat gets run over, flattened into a brittle sheet which cracks int pieces, but a moment later he's chasing the mouse again.  It's a different universe, with different rules.

The notes point out that Alice's remark that if she fell off the roof she wouldn't even mention it is the first of many death jokes.  We'll have to watch for others.

[marcie]

I'm sure that the Liddell children found it amusing that Alice is trying to keep her wits and her school-taught facts as she falls and wanders through the rabbit hole but that she is very mixed up.

 It was all very well to say 'Drink me,' but the wise little Alice was not going to do THAT in a hurry. 'No, I'll look first,' she said, 'and see whether it's marked "poison" or not'; for she had read several nice little histories about children who had got burnt, and eaten up by wild beasts and other unpleasant things, all because they WOULD not remember the simple rules their friends had taught them: such as, that a red-hot poker will burn you if you hold it too long; and that if you cut your finger VERY deeply with a knife, it usually bleeds; and she had never forgotten that, if you drink much from a bottle marked 'poison,' it is almost certain to disagree with you, sooner or later.

However, this bottle was NOT marked 'poison,' so Alice ventured to taste it, and finding it very nice, (it had, in fact, a sort of mixed flavour of cherry-tart, custard, pine-apple, roast turkey, toffee, and hot buttered toast,) she very soon finished it off.

[bellamarie]

JoanP., Asks, "is there someone else in the tunnel," since the bottle was not there before and now it is.  Well, from my own experience, in a dream things appear and disappear at will, since after all it is a dream and does not have to follow any particular rule or format, sense and nonsense, is what most dreams seem to be.  Carroll, knew his audience, since he has taken them out for boat rides before and told them stories, and yes, he seems to enjoy keeping them wanting more, even if it is scary.  My Zoey sure does not seem to mind it scares her, she wants me to keep reading to her.  

It reminds me of when we all just spent the night at Great Wolf Lodge, an indoor water park in Mason, Ohio.  I had taken my grandson Zak and of course his little sister Zoey to turn in their arcade tickets for prizes on our last night there.  Zak chose a small flashlight for one of his prizes.  Later, in our room, the older boys decided to turn off all the lights in the hotel room, and then my son (their Dad) put the flashlight up to his face and oh boy, Zoey immediately said, "Don't do that Daddy, it is scaring me."  So I said, okay let's turn all the lights back on, and Zoey says, "NO Nonnie, I want to see Daddy's scary face again."   I'm like really?  I thought she was just saying she was scared, yet she wanted more.  I suppose this is just how the Liddell girls felt with Carroll's stories.

I'm with JoanP., I want out of this room, and see the beautiful gardens.  I am tempted to sit and watch the movie tonight when I get back from the casino.  Does anyone have any advice as to if it would ruin my first time reading this book, and be the first time ever watching the movie?  Yes, no.....what say you?

Great pics, JoanP., your sons are brave young men.  I have never seen a bat, and never want to.  I had a friend who had a bat in her bedroom and woke them up at night.  Her hubby did everything to shoo it out of their house.  Months later, he showed up again.  Ughhh....I get the chills just thinking about it.

Ciao for now~