Author Topic: Talking Heads ~ Aging: Do Not Go Gentle (Read 19913 times)

BooksAdmin · « **on:** April 06, 2009, 01:56:24 PM »

Talking Heads

"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting..."
Herbert Bayard Swope, creator of the Op-Ed page.

A two week forum for opinions on anything in print: magazines, newspaper articles, online: bring your ideas and let's discuss.

Our Third Selection is: Do Not Go Gentle: The Feisty Man's Guide to Aging Anything But Gracefully by Roy Rowan.

Smithsonian Magazine April 2009:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/The-Last-Page-Do-Not-Go-Gentle.html

"How old would you be if you didn't know how old you was?"--Satchel Paige

Discussion Leader: Ginny

ginny · « **Reply #1 on:** April 06, 2009, 02:08:23 PM »

Welcome to our newest op ed discussion, Talking Heads #3, Do Not Go Gentle. This riff on Dylan Thomas appears in this month's Smithsonian Magazine, and is subtitled The Feisty Man's Guide to Aging Anything But Gracefully.

It's a short one page article half taken up with a photo. I wonder what your take on him is? No fool like an old fool? The old goat? Do you applaud him or think he needs to grow up? Or how do you see him, and it?

And what about the issues he raises?

What does the statement "when I am an old woman I shall wear purple"
mean?

Do you know the next lines to the poem which start Do Not Go Gentle by Dylan Thomas? Do you agree with them?

When do the doors start closing in life? What age?

And finally in the words of Satchel Paige: "How old would you be if you didn't know how old you was?"

I have thought about that question continually since I first read it two weeks ago. I am still thinking about it, what would you say? What are some of the external things which begin to make us "old," other than our own aging?

In short what are YOUR opinions on this article and the points it raises?

The floor is now open for your thoughts.

ALF43 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 06, 2009, 03:01:08 PM »

Ginny what an appropriate subject for all of us hereon Senior Learn I always loved Ralph Waldo Emerson's take of age. 'The age of a woman doesn't mean a thing because the best tunes are played on the oldest of fiddles." (paraphrased, xcse me Mr RWE.)

Bill always says not to complain of getting old because it beats the he** out of the alternative.

The subject of age seems very appropriate for me today as I just received a call from my oldest friend. We grew up together, back to back (fences)and her mom had a stroke this morning. She is 93 and had been well right up until today.
When the good Lord says "come fourth, he does not mean 5th."
You had better be ready to meet your maker.
When Joanie and I were in 5th grade , her mom became pregnant with her last child, who is now 50'ish. We were embarrased that she was SOOOO old and pregnant.

Age is truly in the eye of the beholder.

ALF43 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 06, 2009, 03:03:42 PM »

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Dylan Thomas Page

maryz · « **Reply #4 on:** April 06, 2009, 05:37:12 PM »

What does the statement "when I am an old woman I shall wear purple" mean?

I have loved this poem since I first heard it in the late 1980s. Our daughters made me an embroidered wall hanging with the first lines of the poem - and it still hangs on the wall in our house. To me, it means that when a woman is "old", she no longer had to be bound by unnecessary strictures and customs. I've always been pretty much a nonconformist, so this suited me to a "T". It also reminded me very much of my mother.

Steph · « **Reply #5 on:** April 07, 2009, 08:04:34 AM »

I love the purple poem and the Do not go gentle as well. I have always sort of walked and danced to my own drummer, but find as I get older, I also get a little further from my age groups. I would guess that reading is one of the reasons. Not sure I see his point. If you offer me a seat on a bus or train, I will take it in a minute.. But I will also give up my seat to a pregnant lady or someone with a baby or even someone who simply looks way too tired. Courtesy strikes me as that answer.
Women when their children grow up and out change in many ways. We ( or at least our generation of women) were carefully trained to be nurturers. Our mothers rarely worked. I did not work when my children were young. Now my daughter in law would not consider not working. Women change.. and its good. So I am not going gentle, but exercising, complaining and doing it my way. I marvel at my husband. His hobby for the past 10 years is that when he feels strongly about something.. He writes a letter to the editor or an email to the politician. Our sons were not amused. They are both in state and county positions, but he told them, they would just have to cope. Now they seem to be proud and our younger one has also taken up writing to the editor.. Of course he is conservative and we are liberal, so it gets sort of funny.. But good for us all.

maryz · « **Reply #6 on:** April 07, 2009, 08:23:37 AM »

Steph, love your attitude. And we DO have an attitude. I loved reading about your husband and his letter writing. Just before I came to SeniorLearn this morning, I sent a letter to the editor of our paper. Our paper has a column in the Sunday paper called "Rants". The letters must be 25 words or less, and they are published unsigned (although you have to give them your name, address, etc. when you send it in). I also send in longer signed letters fairly frequently. Been doing it forever.

This is a long and on-going tradition in our family. Our youngest grandchild (Sarah is 20, finishing her sophomore year in college) is a political science major, going into law, and wants to write legislation. She's just been elected to the college Senate for her Junior class. And her role models are her 73-year-old grandmother (me ) and her 89-year-old great-great aunt (my mother's youngest sister). Not only that, but we are "honored" by symbols in her latest (2nd and I hope last) tattoo. I'm extremely proud and humbled by her feelings for me. And delighted that the generations of rabble-rousing female keep on coming.

Babi · « **Reply #7 on:** April 07, 2009, 08:42:36 AM »

I'm not the ranting or 'raging' type ...though I have written letters to the editor and to politicians. Not to mention people who tried to 'rip me off'!
We naturally resent some of the restrictions our body places on us as we grow older, but complaining about it isn't going to help. Better to do what I can to make myself as healthy and comfortable as possible, and accept the inevitable as gracefully as possible. Perhaps my confidence that this
life is not all there is gives me a different viewpoint from Dylan Thomas'. (A great poem, nevertheless.)

mrssherlock · « **Reply #8 on:** April 07, 2009, 09:50:33 PM »

Steph · « **Reply #9 on:** April 08, 2009, 07:50:20 AM »

The Dylan Thomas poem is an old and treasured favorite of mine. I am sometimes startled to discover that someone that I assumed was older than I am, turns out to be younger. I am now 71.. But there is a certain type of person who I suspect was born old..has old attitudes and always sort of fades. I have opinions. Right.. wrong... who knows. But they are mine and I will carry them to the end. I also feel that fighting is the way to stay alive. We recently lost an old friend. He was 80, was diagnosed with lung cancer, refused all treatment.... died in 45 days.. The doctor said, he could have lived at least another year if he had just done something.

Babi · « **Reply #10 on:** April 08, 2009, 09:34:14 AM »

Perhaps it was the form of treatment that decided your friend, STEPH. Cancer treatments can leave one feeling so constantly sick and weak. I don't think I would care for another year of life if it was going to be spent being miserable.

pedln · « **Reply #11 on:** April 08, 2009, 09:50:20 AM »

MaryZ, you’re the only person I know to be honored by a tatoo. That’s wonderful.

I have a lot of mixed feelings about this whole business of aging, but number one is that until they’re definitely in harm’s way, folks should be able to make their own decisions and live their lives without comment or criticism from others. If someone wants to sit on the front porch and watch the world go by, so be it. (Our president has said he likes sitting a a café with a glass of wine, watching people walk by.) Just let me have a book or Sudoku or a crossword puzzle at the same time.

I had a friend in her nineties who lived alone in her house. She began to get forgetful, lost her driving privileges, got confused, but wanted to stay in her house. Her niece became her guardian and she had home health during the day. Someone said, ‘she could burn the house down.’ My answer, “so?” Eventually she fell and broke her hip and was in a nursing home until she got pneumonia and had to go to the hospital. She said she wasn’t going back to the nursing home, and she didn’t. She died in the hospital.

Another friend just moved away to live in a retirement condo near her daughter. She stopped by recently and said she felt she’d made the right decision. But it was her decision. Every time I visit someone in the retirement center here, which is quite lovely although the apartments are small, I think, ”I’m so glad I don’t live here.” Some years ago I was travelling with some folks who liver there. Everyone knows who uses rubber sheets and who doesn’t. That lack of privacy is a bit much for me.

I recently saw two of my daughters and we were skirting about the issue of aging, medicare, etc. (They are both public health professionals). And I asked Judy, “If I begin repeating myself a lot, you would tell me, wouldn’t you?” And her answer, “Tell you you’re losing it? No way.!”

lucky · « **Reply #12 on:** April 08, 2009, 10:08:06 AM »

The line in the Dylan poem " When I am an old woman I will wear purple" brought to mind something. In the ancient world purple was only worn by royalty since the mollusk from which it was obtained was difficult to come by. Wearing purple for the elderly can refer to their wisdom. In ancient societies ( and I assume in less technologically societies than ours) the elderly are still venerated. They have in a sense become "royal". The elderly in our society are not venerated for many reasons. We are an overmedicated society and whatever wisdom an elderly person can impart is eradicated either by side effects of medication or Alzheimer's. I often wonder if Alzheimer's is not caused by all the side effects of the medications that the elderly consume. In simpler times such things did not exist and the elderly were considered founts of wisdom and knowledge and deservingly wore "purple."

mrssherlock · « **Reply #13 on:** April 08, 2009, 12:19:07 PM »

This subject is one that we all live with. When I forget something, I used to get angry at myself but it happens too often now. My MD insists that I don't have the big A but I can't help wondering. My horizons have shrunk some since I rarely set long range goals but my interest is high in current affairs. I sent an email to The White House! Not rage but not complacence either. Due to heredity I have not wrinkled much and my arthritis has not disfigured my hands as it has my sister's so I don't look old. Stimulating the mind, taking up new interests, travel, enjoying the arts, these have been my life-long pattern not a gradual sinking into apathy. And purple, how apt, it says "Look at me!" Not for me the modest black dress but purple, coral, emerald flowers, lively prints, that's how to dress and who gives a **** if it is not what one sees in Vogue.

maryz · « **Reply #14 on:** April 08, 2009, 01:11:21 PM »

Lucky, the poem by Jenny Josephs is called Warning, and part of it goes like this.

WARNING
When I am an old woman I shall wear purple
With a red hat which doesn't go and doesn't suit me.
And I shall spend my pension on brandy and summer gloves
And satin sandals, and say we've no money for butter.
I shall sit down on the pavement when I'm tired
And gobble up samples in shops and press alarm bells
And run my stick along the public railings
And make up for the sobriety of my youth.
I shall go out in my slippers in the rain
And pick the flowers in other people's gardens . . .

The ending of the poem pleases its readers when the woman says . . .

But maybe I ought to practice a little now?
So people who know me are not too shocked and surprised
When suddenly I am old, and start to wear purple.

The point is not about wearing regal purple, but of wearing "purple with a red hat that doesn't go". It's about breaking the old taboo of never wearing purple and red together - about not having to conform to arbitrary rules as we age.

CallieOK · « **Reply #15 on:** April 09, 2009, 12:18:01 AM »

Enjoying the comments. Want to read more. So...marking my place.

Steph · « **Reply #16 on:** April 09, 2009, 08:27:32 AM »

The poem of course is what started the red hat societies. I dont belong.. Simply not a good joiner, but they do seem to have fun and I have a number of friends who do belong.
I like the attitude of the poem. Always have.
Actually with our friend with lung cancer, the hospice tried to make him understand that what would be done would simply be to ease his breathing and make him more comfortable, But he wasnt having any.. Sad..
We had a dear dear friend who had pulmonary problems, serious ones caused by Lupus.. No matter how sick she was or how housebound with the oxygen, she planned, designed, had built and decorated a new house and lived triumphantly in it for just over a year with a caretaker and her cats.. When you came to visit, you were allowed to tell her of everything outside and never mention the wheel chair, the oxygen or the dying.. I want to be as brave as she was.

lucky · « **Reply #17 on:** April 09, 2009, 09:44:23 AM »

Hi Maryz

I feel so foolish. For some reason I confused that line about wearing purple with the Dylan poem published above. I am indeed familiar with the poem about wearing purple and I think it is wonderful. That poem has given rise to many women's groups wearing purple and wearing red hats. I think they call themselves the Red Hat Society. I often see groups of them in local restaurants and other gathering places. In fact my sister bought me a purple outfit and my daughter bought me a red hat. I have yet to wear them.

maryz · « **Reply #18 on:** April 09, 2009, 10:36:08 AM »

I painted a self-portrait in 1990 as part of my senior project (I was a late-bloomer and graduated from college that spring). I had recently heard that poem and, although I didn't actually have the garments, I painted myself with a purple shirt and a red hat. I still love the piece and it hangs in our living room.

pedln · « **Reply #19 on:** April 09, 2009, 02:22:10 PM »

Way to go, late-bloomer.

Congratulations. I'd love to see the picture, and I'll bet others would too. That must be a wonderful conversation starter for people who come to your house for the first time. Why don't you take a picture of it and post it here?

Babi · « **Reply #20 on:** April 09, 2009, 03:09:04 PM »

I think Alzheimer's existed in 'simpler times', LUCKY. Only then they just called it senility.
Your idea about 'royal purple' for the elderly is nice. I wonder, tho', if it isn't
simply that the lady always liked purple but didn't think it appropriate for some reason. But when she is old, she will wear it simply becuase she likes it. If you can't do what pleases you in the later years of your life, when can you?
Oh, yeah! Just read MARYZ's post. That's what I'm talking about!

JACKIE, I don't get mad when my brain gets laggard. I just shake my head in
resignation....and then slap myself on the side of the head!

maryz · « **Reply #21 on:** April 09, 2009, 04:14:20 PM »

pedln, I'll get a photo of it, and make it my avatar.

nlhome · « **Reply #22 on:** April 09, 2009, 10:22:49 PM »

What an interesting discussion.
I love the poetry.

winsummm · « **Reply #23 on:** April 09, 2009, 11:01:24 PM »

I love bothof those poems but don't take them to heart. I'm adjusting my life style because at 81 I have too, but I'm still me. My new Kindle helps a lot with mobility and books as well as storage. I have five book cases full of books so it is nice that the kindle doesn't make more for me to store. I've just read seven in the three weeks that I have it. . .birthday gift from my daughter.

The young me liked to read too. Hated being interrupted or having to turn the lights out and go to bed while reading. Did the flashlight under the covers for a while, but it wasn't comfortable.

so my various physical problems make me cut down on activities, but that can happen to young people too. I had a friend whose arthritis started when she was sixteen and then there are accidents and illneses. Good health is not guaranteed, but a continuing interest in the ways of the world can be.

I haven't painted for six months and am considering letting it go since I don't see things the way I used too. And anyway as of now, I'd rather

read.

claire

Steph · « **Reply #24 on:** April 10, 2009, 07:40:56 AM »

Hmm, I would think you might want to paint the difference in how you see things now. I am not an artist,, but a craftsman. The nice thing about my baskets and crewel work is I can design, but dont have to worry if it looks like the article, I had in mind.

ginny · « **Reply #25 on:** April 10, 2009, 08:30:37 AM »

This is so interesting, thank you all for these thoughts and the two poems. My mother would NOT allow me to wear purple as a child. I always wondered what it was about it which was special.

What do you think of his wanting the young woman not to offer a seat (since that makes him "old,") but wanting to notice him as a handsome interesting man?

What is he actually asking? Is it something we all ask as litle by little we're overlooked or possibly dismissed by society as a whole as we age? Is it an image thing? Appearances? the new SuperGrandma and Grandpa?

Is it possible for us to look like Loretta Youngs or Clark Gables up into our 80s and 90s? Maybe we should ask is it desirable? We, due to the media's influence, are in danger of becoming an appearance oriented society, what happens to those of us who are not going under the knife to look younger or try to?

Did you know that 43 percent of all 6-8 year old girls in the US wear lipstick or lip gloss? Where does that leave the old grannies and grampas who LOOK their age? Is this piece ABOUT looking your age, or what is it about?

And finally "How old would you be if you didn't know how old you was?"

I keep thinking about that one. How old do you feel?

Super discussion!

maryz · « **Reply #26 on:** April 10, 2009, 09:10:19 AM »

Steph, I don't paint realistically (nor does Winsum/Claire). I may use something "real" as a starting point, but my paintings now are mostly abstract or non-objective. So I rarely have anything in mind when I start out. I love it, though, when the viewer sees something from his/her own mind and experience.

Babi · « **Reply #27 on:** April 10, 2009, 09:36:30 AM »

I think it is sad, GINNY, when vanity causes people to demand repeated surgeries until there is so little available tissue left, they wind up looking like stiff mummies. What an ironic end to the demand for beauty.

Eloise · « **Reply #28 on:** April 10, 2009, 10:42:45 AM »

I always take the seat I am offered in public transport because I want to encourage young people who are considerate and kind. On the other hand my brother who is a year older never takes the seat he is offered, claiming he is getting off soon. At 83 he still wants to look young enough stay standing.

I think we attach too much importance trying to look younger by artificial means. To stay healthy and fit enough to walk a mile or more a day is all that’s needed. 65 is much too young to retire and forced retirement will make a person age faster. Work is what keeps the mind and the body healthy I think.

Quote

So many of my contemporaries have given up and let themselves disintegrate during what they facetiously call their "golden years." And for some reason they seem to take pride in enumerating their ailments in what some wag called "organ recitals."

So many people just retired develop illnesses. I recommend my kids never to retire and work until the end. Like Picasso and Casals

Quote

It's not as if our bodies bear visible proof of our years like a tree's cambial rings or a male elk's antlers. And I'm not convinced that I really am all that old.

Hahaha. Young people would contest that if he asked them. To a 20 something 40 and over is old, so what does it matter?

Quote

We, due to the media's influence, are in danger of becoming an appearance oriented society

I think that has happened already Ginny.

Quote

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

But anger and rage ages you. Although sometimes I indulge in rightful anger, it lets the steam out.

maryz · « **Reply #29 on:** April 10, 2009, 02:15:02 PM »

Well, I took a picture of my painting, and tried to put it in my profile. But all I succeeded in doing was deleting the photo that I had there. I'm still working on it though.

Steph · « **Reply #30 on:** April 11, 2009, 09:42:13 AM »

I must confess that contrary to Eloise, we have retired fairly early and are enjoying a whole new second life.. We take classes, go to a folk school at least once a year and learn new skills. We have volunteered in all sorts of situations to learn new things. We bought an rv and are exploring all of the US year after year.. I laugh since I really believe we are busier in retirement than we were when we worked.
Our sons marvel and both insist that they are making lists as they grow older in the things they want to do and be when they retire.
Retirement for us meant a new type of life. No more 9-5....
I do believe that the expectations of how you look as you age are off putting. My husband had to have extensive surgery on one side of his face and ear due to a mixture of skin cancers. He had maybe half an ear and a sunken place in front where the parotid gland was.. He was very self conscious at first, but now he understands that most people in real life simply dont care.. or even notice.. It gave him new spirit and he tries hard to help people who are undergoing the same types of surgeries.

Eloise · « **Reply #31 on:** April 11, 2009, 10:53:59 AM »

The kind of retirement I meant was one from a career that can be very draining for most people Steph. I don't think you are retired at all by what you have undertaken to do with your time. That's what I have done, I retired from a boring and necessary job at 62 and took on more meaningful activities plus going back to studies that I had always wanted to do.

Now though all the learning I get and want comes from Seniors & Friends previously from SeniorNet. I travel every year and I live above my youngest daughter's family which keeps me very busy. So far my life is very full and rewarding on all fronts and I am grateful for that.

mrssherlock · « **Reply #32 on:** April 11, 2009, 11:15:19 AM »

Steph: Your husband's medical woes must have been very stressful. One advantage of old age is that it is better to live long than not. Another is knowing that everyone has their own scars, some visible some not not. To me that is the point of "Purple", giving up on the shallow rules which may have limited our choices in past years. Another way of saying it is: Life is short, eat dessert first.

Babi · « **Reply #33 on:** April 11, 2009, 02:47:44 PM »

I envy you your lifestyle, STEPH, but I'm very glad you and Eloise are able to enjoy that kind of freedom. I wholly understand about people not taking notice
of disfigurements. I well remember the first time I met a young youth Pastor who had burn scar covering haf his face. I was shocked and startledon that first view, but I quickly adjusted. In no time at all, I didn't even notice the scarring, but only what an exceptionally fine young man he was.

Steph · « **Reply #34 on:** April 12, 2009, 09:21:36 AM »

I agree that the first time you meet someone who has an obvious disfigurement, you remark, but as you get to know them it disappears. We raced sailboats for many years. Both of our sons did as well. When they were teens, we met another racer who had only one arm.. Norm raced a singlehanded boat. drove his rv and generally lived like everyone else.. I remember going to a regatta and there was someone who had not raced before. They saw Norm and then mentioned to our sons and some others that it seemed dangerous to them, that he raced with one arm.. They looked at the new people with amazement.. They had honestly never considered the one arm. They just knew he was good at racing and was their friend.

mrssherlock · « **Reply #35 on:** April 12, 2009, 10:05:10 AM »

Being disabled always seemed to me to be worse than death. Until I worked with disabled adults where they were being taught independent living. There were whole bodied by paralyzed adults, one from a skydiving accident another from a football injury, some were blind, some were suffering from MS, some had congenital deficiencies, i saw first hand that life is precious and that whatever burdens we have, we all have burdens. Some visible, some not.

Babi · « **Reply #36 on:** April 12, 2009, 10:44:39 AM »

My husband once expressed a similar sentiment, JACKIE. We were walking downtown and passed a man with no legs, pushing himself along on a wooden
platform on wheels. Bill said, "I'd rather die than live like that."
I turned on him and got in his face. Told him he was as much as saying that
his entire life was only worth as much as his legs. He was taken aback, but he I could see he understood what I was saying. He changed his thinking in that respect.

serenesheila · « **Reply #37 on:** April 12, 2009, 04:59:18 PM »

As I age, my health declines. I have mutiple, chronic health problems. Mentally, I feel as if I am in my early 40s. Physically I range from my actual age of almost 75, to about 90. It all depends upon my health status. Even on my oldest days, though, I have no desire to rage. I hope to go gently into whatever comes next.

I love the purple woman! For many years I was intent upon conforming. What a waste of time and energy. Today, I enjoy staying in my pajamas most days. Winter brings out my sweatsuits. Summer, it's shorts. In my earlier years I would not wear shorts. Today, I am about 40 lbs. overweight. But, as Popeye always said: "I yam, who I yam". Comfort dictates what I wear.

One of my health situations involves a lot of back pain. I have a ruptured disc at L5, which impinges my Sciatic nerve. I also was diagnosed with Lumbar Stenosis. Pain runs from my buttocks, down to my ankles. I have a lot of pain when walking. I have learned to pace myself. I use a cane., and do a little at a time. Fortunately, I love to read, watch movies, and use my computer. Even if I never leave home, except to see the dr., the world is still open to me. Most of the time, I focus on what is good about my life, not what is missing.

I have really enjoyed all of your comments on this topic. I am so happy to have these discussions.

Sheila

Steph · « **Reply #38 on:** April 13, 2009, 07:50:33 AM »

Been one of those weekends. My husband is a total Tiger fan, so he was engrossed in the match. I dont like golf not to play or watch.. I spent it reading a new Wally Lamb.. Too long a book, but it is excellent..
I keep fighting the good fight on aging. I got a Wi for Christmas and then the Wi fit attachments. I go to the gym three days a week, do the Wi fit three days and walk each and every day for 30-40 minutes. Actually the walking is as much for myhead as body. I found many years ago that a good walk before dawn for me is like a drug. I come home refreshed, skin rosy, breathing much better. I guess I am some form of a walking addict. At least a few days a week, I also listen to audio tape books and some days the radio. Depends on my mood..

Babi · « **Reply #39 on:** April 13, 2009, 09:54:36 AM »

SHEILA, I was considerably more than 40 pounds overweight, and couldn't
seem to budge it. I remember praying, 'Lord, help me get this off! Whatever
it takes!' Be careful what you pray for! Due to health problems, If have
lost so much weight my bones are prominent, my skin loose, and people go
out of their way to assist me when I am out and about.
Okay, Lord, I did ask for it! $:-\$

No wonder you look so great in that photo, STEPH. More power to you.

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Author Topic: Talking Heads ~ Aging: Do Not Go Gentle (Read 19913 times)