I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

June Book Club Online

I ALWAYS LOVED YOU: A NOVEL
by Robin Oliveira

This should be FUN!  With the Internet at our fingertips, we'll be able to examine each of the artworks described here  by  the new talent, Robin Oliveira! This is from a recent Seattle Times review: "Degas is tempestuous, sardonic and witty.  But the focus is squarely on Mary, working on unfinished paintings, washing her brushes, reeking of turpentine, collaborating with Degas on a journal of etchings, thinking about “the essential talent of seeing.” Mary Cassatt comes alive as disciplined, socially acute, outspoken and stoic in facing down her self-doubt."

Related links:
Vocabulary Help
National Gallery of Art Exhibition of Degas/Cassatt paintings
Portrait of Mary Ellison ~ Mary Cassatt
Mary Cassatt's many paintings
Links to Impressionist Art discussed in this book
Interview with Robin Oliveira concerning those letters

Discussion Schedule: June 1-2    1926                Prologue June 3-6      1877              Chapters One - Nine   June 7-13    1877 cont.     Chapters Ten - Nineteen     June 14-16  1878                Chapters Twenty - Twenty Six                 June 17-22  1879                Chapters Twenty Seven - Thirty Five June 23-27  1880                Chapters Thirty Six - Forty Four June 28-30  1881-3             Chapters Forty Five - Fifty Three June 3-6  1877 Chapters One-Nine   1.  Acceptance by the jury of artists at the Salon - "the ambition of every artist in Paris." What becomes of those not invited? 2. Does Degas' painting, "In a Cafe-the Absinthe Drinker" make you uncomfortable, as it did Abigail Alcott? Should Art make viewer feel uncomfortable?  What effect does it have on you? 3. Are you familiar with Berthe Morisot's paintings?  Was she one of the Impressionists?  Why doesn't Manet exhibit with the Impressionists? (He's always been rejected by the Salon.) 4. Do you agree with Degas - that artistic talent "is not a gift, but rather hard work, study of form, and obsessive revision?" 5. Do you believe Degas actually told Mary on their first meeting that she "hated" her own paintings,which had just been rejected by the Salon?  Was her  portrait of the young American, Mary Ellison her first painting after that meeting?  Can you find it? 6. Have you noticed Robin Oliveira's use of the artist's palette in her descriptions - the bitumen and ocher dresses, the Viridian green? June 7-13 1877cont.  Chapters Ten-Nineteen 1. Do you think the American, Mary Cassatt, would have been able to crash the  inner circle of French  Impressionists without Degas' introduction?  Does Berthe Morisot accept her or does she insult her at their first meeting? 2. What advice does Morisot give to Mary regarding Degas? Is this from her own experience with fellow artist? Can you find Berthe Morisot's "the Chevalier Glass"?  How does it compare to Manet's "Nana"?  Do you think they collaborated? 3. Why does Degas show deference to Mary, treating her like a china doll - holding her hand in public, though briefly?  Do you think this is all Robin Oliveira's fiction? 4. "Paint what is real," he tells her.  "Paint what people hide.  What people hide is more real than what they show."  Do you see this in his work?  In hers? 5. Degas is insulted when Mary thinks his work is effortless. Tells her he has no talent - only hard work and doubt.  Do you agree with him? 6.  Degas asks Mary to sit for him, which Oliveira writes "is beyond intimacy."  Do you agree? 7.  Degas takes home a petit rat for a night.  Says she was a specimen to him.  Apparently this is not the first time.  What was his motive? (What is a rat in world of French ballet?) 8.  Was Degas trying to impress the Cassatt family with his gifts?  Did he succeed?  Do you think this actually happened? Discussion Leader:   Joan P

[BarbStAubrey]

Bitumen is not so much a black vibrant pigment, it is what Bitumen does - it is used over another color and rather than being transparent with a hint of its own color it has a streaky quality and according to the under color can take on a dull grayish black look or a clear shinny black - it was a paint used to create effects before synthetic pigments when the material that paint was made from reacted as much as the hue mixture - example; a pigment made from precious stone will lay on top of a hue made from earth like an Umber - they will not mix and made a third  color.

With paints made from - earth, clay, bugs, flowers, leaves, sea creatures an other natural sources ground in oils or egg yolks - it was not just a case of mixing say a Sienna (red brownish) with a Gamboge - they will not mix to make an orange like mixing today's red and yellow paint that is made from the same basic chemical material as compared to the historic pigments.

Bitumen is an asphalt or tar that mixed with linseed oil gave it unusual properties and allowed an artist to create depth and creases more easily as well as give a shimmering effect to the fabric in a painting. The under color controlled the look of the Bitumen.  

[PatH]

Thanks for the explanation, Barb.  So that's another example of Oliveira's painterly word palette.

[JoanP]

Thanks, Barb. I've been thinking about the "shiney" quality on the bituminous dresses of the "less well off."  Inclined to think they are shiney from wear?  Is that how you saw them, Callie?
 
You deserve a good rest, Pedln!  900 miles of driving - Understand about the selfies.  It's difficult to take a group...when your arm isn't long enough.  Someone's face is always getting distorted!

Looking at the discussion schedule, I see we are ready to move on to the rest of the 1877 chapters, but will leave the discussion questions from the first half for those still waiting for the book.  You know we are always interested in your observations from the earlier chapters.

Do you really think that Mary would have packed up and gone back to America after being rejected by the Salon?  I do.  Had it not been for that meeting with Degas days before she left Paris, I don't think she would have changed her style - would have been included in the Impressionists' exhibitions.  Would she have been recognized in America?

[CallieOK]

JoanP,   since I know nothing about how an artist mixes colors,  I was only thinking about the way coal can shine.  Good point about the well worn look of the "less well off".

Yes, I think Mary would have come back to America.  I wonder if her father would have encouraged her to continue painting or if he would have "married her off"?

[BarbStAubrey]

Been reading along and will  join you fully on Monday - Sunday is when my grandson and son-in-law leave to return home - been a great visit all week and Gary helped me with some major tasks around the house and  yard - yipee - The big one we emptied out the entire garage and tool room - washed it down and only put back what I am keeping - the rest to either Good Will or the dumpster - what a difference but oh I am tired.  Tonight my son and Sally Gale come up and we are all going to Schultz's for beer and barbeque No dropped shoulders around here to influence an artist - now half closed eyes maybe but from a body pushed. 

[JoanP]

Barb...sounds like a fun weekend with your guys...plus you had help around the place!  Can't beat that! Will be looking for you tomorrow...

I've been looking at Berthe Morisot and her relationship with Eduard Manet.  What a pair!  Mary Cassatt was floored by their relationship - can't you see her mind turning, resolving NOT to get into a similar situation - married the one brother because she needed to be taken care of - but in love with the other (also  married)-  Eduard tells her he could not have painted his "Nana" without first having seen her "Le Cheval-Glass."  I just had to look that up...
(Le Cheval in French is "horse" - but I found that -
cheval glass is a tall mirror swung on an upright frame that takes its name from French cheval, "horse"—a synonym for "supporting framework," which describes this mirror.

Here are their two paintings, side by side:

 
  

Berthe Morisot's "Le Cheval-Glass"        Eduard Manet's "Nana"

[JoanP]

It was extremely difficult to make it in the art world in the late 1800's - expecially for those who deviated from the old masters in any way, still hoping to be accepted by the important panel of jurors at the Salon.  The small group making up the Impressionists were careful about who they accepted too.  I read there were only THREE women accepted into this group of new-style painters.  We've been seeing Berthe Morisot and the sacrifices she made for her art.   I found this information on the third, whose name is little known because she gave up trying to live with her artist-husband's criticism - jealousy, perhaps?  
Marie Bracquemond

Had you ever heard of her?  Here are some of her paintings:  Slide show of Marie Bracquemond's paintings  Surely Mary C knew her, though I see no mention of her so far...

[mrssherlock]

Even if a painting was accepted for the annual Salon it was not always easy to see. Paintings were hung covering the walls.  Mamet complained about the bright light, it washed out his colors. 

Poor Marie.  While I did not get an emotional jolt on viewing the slide show, her work was respectable.  I wonder who were the 'favored' artists of that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressionists

[mabel1015j]

The Bracquemond paintings are interesting and - imho- good. That first one is interesting, the women on the left looking straight at the viewer is rather strange, almost like it was done as a stand alone figure and then added to this one. I like the other three very much.

Jean

[JoanP]

Jean - the woman looking out of the painting appears to be looking directly at the viewer - almost imploring us to understand her.  The one in this painting - Under the Lamp - got my attention.  Do you think the model was her husband?  He looks intimidating...almost overbearing.  Is that an oversized teacup or soup bowl in his hand?  Notice she's looking away from him - and seems to be bracing herself on the table's edge...



Imagine if Marie had been free of her husband's criticism and scrutiny - free to develop.  Berthe Morisot and Mary Cassatt were fortunate in that they had the support of the Impressionists to try new methods and leave the old ways behind.

[JoanP]

In these chapters, it is written that Degas had admired Mary's work - years before he met her.  One particular painting was mentioned that he particularly enjoyed - her Ida or Spanish Dancer, which she painted in Madrid in 1873.  This was accepted by the Salon in 1874, I think it was.  It was there that Degas had seen and admired it.  It was only after her paintings were refused by the Salon that Degas took a look at her work and persuaded her to change her methods.  We'll have to compare this one with the one of Mary Ellison - side by side to see how she began to change.

[JoanP]

I find myself wondering just how much fact Oliveira had to work with.  Does anyone know if she had any sources - some of Mary's family members who kept records, memoirs, perhaps.  Do you remember the title of the book about Mary's sister Lydia?  It was mentioned in the Prediscussion.  Maybe there is something in that author's biography that reveals sources - other than all those letters...

[pedln]

Would this be it, JoanP ? Fiction, by Harriet Scott Chessman.

Reading the Morning Paper

As stated in Goodreads -- 

This richly imagined fiction entices us into the world of Mary Cassatt’s early Impressionist paintings. The story is told by Mary’s sister Lydia, as she poses for five of her sister’s most unusual paintings, which are reproduced in, and form the focal point of each chapter. Ill with Bright’s disease and conscious of her approaching death, Lydia contemplates her world with courageous openness, and asks important questions about love and art’s capacity to remember.

Still no library book, but I've been trying to play catch up by reading news articles and searching for pictures.  There seems to be a lot out there.  I don't know what has been mentioned in the prediscussion, so I hope I'm not being repetitious, but I was surprised to read that Degas' mother was born in Louisiana and that some family members had a business in New Orleans.

[JoanK]

JoanP: I wonder about that to. that is always the problem with historical fiction: you're never sure how much is history and how much is fiction.

I'm still bogged down in the party. How horrible all the people seem. The only one you can stand is Morisot's husband. And of course nobody pays any attention to HIM!

If I ever thought it would be great to be part of such a glittering crowd, I've changed my mind. I should have known. I've read enough about famous musicians to know they were pretty much all impossible to live with. Why not artists.

[JoanK]

Pedlin: you were posting while I was. That book sounds interesting -- maybe I'll read it later and see a different view of Mary.

I thought Ida, the early painting that Degas admired was very good.

[PatH]

I, too, wonder how much source material there is.  They were a pretty self-focussed crowd, and articulate, so maybe there was a lot.  JoanP, I take it from your remark that we do actually have the letters?  Both his and hers?

[JoanP]

   Pat - I just assumed that the letters were kept, that Degas and Mary C. were well-known in the art world at this time - and that those letters would have become important in museum archives somewhere.  I haven't finished the book - am reading along with all of you.  Maybe we'll learn something different...in the Epilogue, for instance.  Oh my - I don't even want to consider that they don't exist -

Pedln - thank you for the title - and the link to Harriet Scott Chessman's Lydia Cassatt Reading the Morning Paper .  I'm going to go to that SeniorNet discussion of this book and see if there are any clues leading to other resources as to the relationship between the two artists.  According to Oliveira's book, it was public knowledge that there was a romance there.  I  

Does the fact that these two artists worked so closely together for such a long time, never married - never married anyone else, indicated theirs was an exclusive relationship?  It wasn't too far-fetched for both of these authors, Oliveira and Chessman, to put together their "fiction" based on their artwork and evidence that they worked so closely together...

"the problem with historical fiction: you're never sure how much is history and how much is fiction."

 JoanK, maybe we need to be content to read it (and enjoy it) as "fiction" then?  

[JoanP]

If Degas and Mary Cassatt did in fact have  a private romance which they kept well hidden, public figures as they were - doesn't that give even more meaning to the advice Degas gives to Mary C -
"Paint what is real," he tells her.  "Paint what people hide.  What people hide is more real than what they show."  Do you see this in his work?  In hers?

[bellamarie]

Interesting how we can all see different things in a painting. Thank you JoanP. for posting the paintings.

JoanP.,

" Under the Lamp - got my attention.  Do you think the model was her husband?  He looks intimidating...almost overbearing.  Is that an oversized teacup or soup bowl in his hand?  Notice she's looking away from him - and seems to be bracing herself on the table's edge..."

When I look at this picture first I see the man seeming very gentle.  The woman seems peaceful and contemplating what the man may be saying to her.  Her arm and hand on the table has a relaxed feel to me.  Without knowing any background to the painting, my impression is a serene dinner.  They both seem to be lost in thought. 
 
I'm having a bit of a problem getting interested in this story.  The men seem to be self absorbed and a bit immature for their age.

Suddenly, the woman rose and just as quickly disappeared into the crush, and not even Degas's sudden wail of frustration could produce her.

"Pity," Edouard mocked.

"Oh, shut up."

"You can hunt for her on the streets."

"She is not the streetwalking type."

"Then she should be of little interest to you.  A woman who doesn't take off her clothes on command?  Who won't let you paint her juicy bits?  Why would you even care?"

I get the sense these famous artists are much like celebrities, full of themselves and lack good moral judgement.  So what is it about Mary that causes Degas to want to run after her and finally meet her. 

"He would very much like to see a painting by her again.  There had been something so intimate about that portrait he had admired of hers.  Ida, was it?

Seeing the Ida painting, I get a sense of virginal, matrimonial look, with the veil and wanderlust look in the Ida's eyes.  Is it the innocence that Degas sees and wishes for, since he obviously has had many women of "the streets."

I am very far behind in my reading only up to chapter three.  Those who have not gotten your books, I hope some of our posts from the book will help you follow along with the story line.  As for what is history or fiction is interesting to ponder.  I will have to do a little Google search to see what I can find out.  I do so hope the letters are real and existed.  They seem to be what has captured my interest in the story.  The mystery of what is in them.  Aren't we all a bit of a voyeur, wanting to peek inside others private lives......   

Ciao for now~

[pedln]

Hurrah, library book arrived late last night -- good for two weeks.  A renew button will appear if no one else has the book on hold.  Let's hope.

Am curious about the letters, too, Bellamarie, and I will have to go back and read that section again.  I'm left with the idea that Cassatt found HER letters to Degas when she was helping organize his paintings, etc. after his death.

So, while trying to track that down, I came across this title of a poem.  I cannot find the text of the poem.

13 / Mary Cassatt, After Destroying the Letters of Edgar Degas, a poem by Ruthann Robson

Surely she didn't .   .    .    .

[bellamarie]

Oh my heavens!  Please tell me she did not destroy the letters.  I am so glad your book has arrived pedln.

I finally found some spare time this morning, and have read up to chapter nine.  I'm finding it a bit more interesting.  Edoud and Berthe with their secret love for one another, and he having so many women.  

[PatH]

In the Prologue, Cassatt is described as having found her letters to Degas in his studio after his death.  I'd really like to know.  I couldn't track down the text of that poem either.

[JoanP]

Pedln  - thank you for tracking down Harriet Scott Chessman's Lydia Reading the Morning Paper for us.  I spent some enjoyable time reading about this book (I really want to read it now!)...and searching to see if I could find sources she might have used about Mary C's life.  From what I can see, she did much the same thing that Robin Oliveira may have done - came up with her story from the paintings.  Which would make her "historical fiction" more "fiction" - the history coming from the factual evidence - the paintings.

THAT SAID - there are still other sources - beyond the letters - beyond family members.  Mary had many friends, personal, artists, art dealers.  One that shows promise is Louisine Elder.  I think we should pay attention to her in these early chapters.  She came to Paris in 1874 and remained Mary's friends throughout.   It was Louisine who got Mary interested in Degas's work early on.  
Have you heard of the famous Havemeyer Collection at the Met in New York?  Oscar Havemeyer was Louisine's second husband.
She wrote a memoir - Sixteen to Sixty: Memoirs of a collector .
Would love to get a look at that!

[pedln]

JoanP, don't we wish we had access to Sixteen to Sixty.  Louise Elder sounds like someone who would be a friend of Mary Cassatt.  They both seem like strong-minded women.  Elder was quiet a feminist, very strong for the suffrage movement, and even managed to get herself arrested on its behalf.

And although Henry Osborne Havemeyer was by no means merely a walking checkbook, it was his wife, Louisine, and Cassatt who were principally responsible for putting together the astonishing group of 19th-century French paintings that are at the heart of the collection celebrated in this exhibition.

But it was Cassatt especially who encouraged them to buy the works of Degas when he was virtually unknown in America and who fostered their interest in Courbet and Manet when those artists were still considered avant-garde here.

Quotes from   NYT article about a Havemeyer exhibit

[JoanK]

Sixteen to sixty is available from Amazon for as little as $3.99 plus $3.99 shipping. I ordered a copy.

[ANNIE]

I am following along but between gadding about with family here and the poor service due to the mountain terrain, I am not posting much.  JoanP, the info you want about the history used in the book is in the book at the end.  The author tells of her research.  Most interesting!
I certainly am sorry that one of the women who was asked to join the  Independents decided to quit painting.  From the slide show of a little of her art, I think she certainly shows great promise.  Night all!

[kidsal]

Received my book today so have catching up to do.  Am reading her book about Mary Sutter.

[PatH]

I feel silly, Annie.  I looked for a description of the author's research, and totally missed the bit at the end.  Thanks for pointing it out.  So Oliveira didn't have access to any letters Degas and Cassatt wrote each other, though she did have other letters of Degas and Cassatt and her family and acquaintances.  This bunch of artists was very self-aware and gossipy and full of themselves, and I'm sure there's a ton of primary material from and about them dissecting their doings in great detail.  Oliveira hasn't waded through the French of original sources, but she's read a number of books by the people who have, so she's pretty well grounded in her subject matter.

[JoanP]

Good to hear from you, Annie.  Hope youo are enjoying your "vacation."  
And kidsal. we'll be looking forward to hearing your observations as  you begin the book.  If you've been reading the posts here, you probably won't have trouble catching up.
What did you think of the author's first book - a bestseller - My Name Is Mary Sutter: A Novel. ?  I recently read something Oliveira said about it in an interview -

"A theme that runs through each of your books is a strong woman fighting for a place in a man's world. Is this in any way related to your own life? What draws you to this theme?

Many people have asked me whether or not I have encountered prejudicial obstacles that have led me to this theme. I have not. I've been extraordinarily lucky. I was raised with four sisters and no brother to compare us to, so I was always told that I could do anything I wanted. Certainly, in the sixties and seventies, no one was encouraging me to be a brain surgeon, but I always thought that if I wanted to be one, I could. (Though I would make a terrible brain surgeon. Trust me on this.) But women as a whole have always had to fight for a place among men. It is one of the unifying conflicts across cultures. It continues to astonish me how tenacious this prejudice remains worldwide. I like to showcase women who have successfully fought the good fight and shown us how it is done"

[JoanP]

JoanK, aren't you something - your own copy of Louisine Elder's Memoirs! I'll bet you are reading one of the very sources that Robin Oliveira researched!
On my way to read the end of the book to check out the sources Annie refers to - though not having read the whole book yet, I can't say I was happy to learn that the letters between the two artists were not available as sources.   Takes away from some of the mystery.  That's what I get from seeking other sources, I guess.

I'm baaack.  Just read the author's notes in the back of the book. JoanK, she doesn't mention Louisine Elder, Mary Cassatt's lifetime friend's memoir as a source.  So maybe you will come across something there when your book arrives.  And it doesn't say why the author didn't use those letters as sources - so they were not available to her. In fact, she doesn't mention them in her notes.  The question remains...what did Robin Oliveira find in the sources she's listed to suggest the romance between the two.

Somewhere the author must have found reference to those rather  personal presents Degas brought as gifts to Mary C's family when he returned to Paris, don't you think?  I don't think she made that up.  And if true, what do you think mom, dad and Lydia would conclude?

[JoanP]

Just discovered this wonderful page in which Robin Oliveira provides links for much of the Art described in this book.  I'm going to include it in the heading for your future reference!

Links to Impressionist Art discussed in this book

[bellamarie]

I found a link of an interview with R.O.  And lost it before bookmarking.  The interviewer asked Robin about the romance in the novel between Mary and Degas and it appears Robin took liberty and made it up.  She admits there was NO source that could actually confirm anything other than a mutual admiration each other had for their shared artistic skills, and friendship.  So, as for the letters, although I was so looking forward to Mary disclosing their contents in this book, it appears my curiosity is squelched.  Imagine my disappointment reading before the end of the story the letters were destroyed.   I don't  read ahead or search for answers dealing with endings due to finding out too much before I care to.

Considering our author has chosen to intimate there was more of a romance than actuality, from here I will read this story more as "fictional history."  The paintings are factual, but without diaries, journals, letters or their personal confirmations, everything else is other's opinions, or assumptions, or the author's imagination to make the story romantic.  Which does not lessen the quality of the story, it just puts things into perspective for the reader.  So when I read Degas was away writing to Mary inventing an intimacy, now it makes sense to me why the author wrote this.

Ciao for now~

P.s.  I will continue to search to find the link to the interview with R.O.

[bellamarie]

Alas!  I found it!!
http://www.auntiesbooks.com/interview-robin-oliveira

I Always Loved You  by-  Robin Oliveira
INTERVIEW WITH ROBIN OLIVEIRA by Linda Bond Prior to the author’s visit to Auntie’s on Saturday, March 22, 2014

"Mary Cassatt and Edgar Degas and their associates had to be, to my mind, fairly represented within what is known about their lives, even as I imagined and crafted their emotional arcs."

Here is a face to face interview with Oliveira

http://tvw.org/index.php?option=com_tvwplayer&eventID=2014050100

This is an excellent interview with the author Robin Oliveira.  Seems the letters being destroyed is what she said sparked her interest in wanting to write the story.

Be sure to watch the entire interview to the end, two journalists discuss the historical/fiction of the book and whether they have a problem with how Oliveira felt since the letters were destroyed it gave her a blank canvas and the liberty to create a relationship she imagined, could or would have been between Mary and Edgar.

Why do you suppose Mary burned all the letters?  Isn't it interesting how she went to Degas's studio and searched to find his letters she wrote to him?  What was in the letters she did not want others to know about?   Guess we will never know, but like Oliveira, the letters are what sparked my interest in this story.  Do you suppose that is why Oliveira put the letters in the beginning of the book, because she knew the reader would want to know, just as she did?  Very smart positioning of the story, since we would never have known the letters were destroyed until the end of the book, which means we all would have been flipping page after page wanting, hoping, willing to find out if Mary would reveal the contents of the letters.  

Ciao for now~  

[JoanP]

Thanks, Bella...will be sure to put the link to the Interview in the heading.  So now, we know for a fact what happened to those letters.  What we don't know is WHY Mary C burned them.  I think it's safe to assume there was something she wished to remain private...and not share with the world when she died.

I wasn't devastated to learn that Robin O. created the romance between these two.  It was more like she did the research, she read many other sources and letters, she studied their art, the way they interacted with their painting - little Alice in the Blue Chair, as an example.  
Robin O.  noted that Degas asked Mary to pose for him.  (He wasn't easy on his models as he reworked his paintings to the point of his models' collapse.)
Oliveria commented that sitting for him  "was beyond intimacy."  
I can see why she'd say that.
There were other drawings - those numerous sketches he did of Mary as they strolled through the Louvre, for example...

I don't think Ms. Oliveira made up a romance out of whole cloth.  There were plenty of indications that theirs was a special relationship - let's not forget that the two never married - one another - or anyone else.   They seemed not to feel the need - their relationship - and art - were enough for them.  (Don't you wonder if Mary ever had a beau?)

[JoanP]

Before we move on to the next chapters and the upcoming Exhibition of 1878 - can we talk about Degas' little ballet dancer?  She's the first thing I think of when I think of his work.

He brings home this 14 year old girl for the night.  She doesn't know what to expect.  My heart broke for all of them. I was furious with their mothers!   I wonder if Mary knew what he was up to.    From what Oliveira writes, this was not unusual at the time - not unusual for Degas.  A cheap way to get a model...making her pose all night.  Her mother never asked about her.  Seemed to accept the situation.

Can you find the meaning of rat in the world of French ballet?

[bellamarie]

JoanP., This is an interesting hearing Oliveria's opinion here....

Oliveria commented that sitting for him   "was beyond intimacy."

After reading how the night went for the fourteen year old, that was "beyond intimacy", that was for me a controlling man, so filled with himself and his painting he borders on abuse with this young girl.  It was a bit sickening, knowing he goes and gets his young models at the Opera', leaving the mothers with the impression he is using them for sex, and the young girls assume he will be using them for sex.

Degas may have been a successful painter, but as far as his character as a man, human being, I can't respect him.  I thought his insult to Mary's father at the dinner was rude and just another example of how Degas is self absorbed.  He doesn't like to think about money, yet he insults Mary's father for pointing out the reality of needing money.  

"We in France despise money,"  Degas said, "We despise its necessity, having to run after it, to think about it, to have to acquire it, to settle accounts, to owe people things."  

"Thank God the world isn't run by artists,"Robert said, seemingly unable to think of a further reply to a man who didn't appreciate the value of money."

Oliveria states the relationship turns tumultuous, which does not surprise me.  He is already showing how controlling he is of Mary.

"It was on one of those afternoons that she had told him that her family was moving to Paris.  The shock had been significant.  He had come to think of her as his and could not imagine her with other loyalties."


Oliveria also notes the Impressionists are a group of rebels, which makes me see why Mary would be interested in joining them. Berthe Morisot warns Mary about Degas.  This is a glimpse of his violent temper when Mary is simply asking him about his painting and how he does it.

"It's extraordinary.  It looks effortless."

"Effortless?" Degas's placid expression twisted into a fiery swirl of pursed lips and forehead.  "What do you think?  That this is easy for me?  That I could decided to paint something and then it magically appears from my hand?  That I have some gift, that my work arrives finished, that this is not a struggle for me?"

"No.  Not at all, but__"

"It's an insult for you to think that I do not work.  That I do not have to earn every painting, every print, every drawing I produce."

"I didn't mean to insult you.  I was merely asking__I was admiring __."

"You're not stupid.  Don't say stupid things."

"I wasn't."

He turned away, the trails of his coat brushing a stack of tracings to the already littered floor.  His sudden fury seemed to have enervated him, for within seconds he turned to face her, his shoulders drooping with regret, but Mary was already pulling on her coat, lunging for the stairwell, for escape.

He then states, "Your admiration will give me power over you I do not want to wield."  Yet, I think he already knows he has this power over her.  He is older, accomplished, she stated she decided to stay in Paris because of his invitation into the group, she has decided to change her own style of painting because of him.  He can open doors for her, introduce her to his friends.  Even Berthe and Edouard see the power Edgar has over Mary.

Berthe says to her, "I invited you here because I wish to warn you, with respect, that Monsieur Degas can be mercurial.  You haven't known him long enough to know that his regard can easily be withdrawn.  You must understand, he is not fickle as much as he is paradoxical.  One really never knows what he intends when he says or does anything."

"Are you saying his offer to exhibit is insincere?"

"What I am saying is that you must be careful.  I do adore him,"  Berthe continued, appearing to erase all her life's earlier adores, all the truth of that perilous word.  "But he can be terrible."

"What I mean is that you should own yourself.  Don't rely on Monsieur Degas."

"I am not enamored of him," Mary said.  "I merely admire his art."

"Well, he admires you.  He could speak of little else the last time I spoke with him."

Hmmmm.....just maybe the letters contained some pretty not so romantic conversations, rather something Mary would not want others to know about how he treated her.

Ciao for now~

[pedln]

I'm still playing catch-up.  JoanP, that a wonderful site to the Impressionist art in the book.  Plenty to see there. Oliviera's comments comparing paintings to text proved very timely, considering the new film that has just come out -- Words and Pictures.  

Bellamarie, I was disappointed that the video interview did not have captions, but I've emailed TVW to see if there might be a transcript.

It dawned on me that I had David McCullough's Greater Journey on my Kindle, so did a little index and source checking, and am now finding that I can't remember if I read something in Oliviera or was it in McC.  Mary Cassatt's family moved to Paris and rented an apartment on the sixth floor!
That must have been extremely hard on Lydia.  I like that Cassatt painted her mother (Reading Le Figaro) for her Impressionist debut.

Now, back to catching up, but want to check out Oliviera's sources at the end of the book.  A digital problem there -- now I'll be forever synced to the end of the book.

[pedln]

In her author comments Oliviera says "The letters in the book are fiction .     .     ."  Does she mean the letters between Cassatt and Degas?  So what was burned?

[JoanP]

A good question, Pedln!  Perhaps there were no letters in the first place!

I don't think the night (s?) painting "le petit rat"  were intimate at all.  She was merely a specimen - like a nude sitting in an art school.  Do you think it was intimate painting Mary for hours?