Girls of Atomic City by Denise Kiernan ~Mid Sept-Oct Book Club Pre-Discussion

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in!

Discussion Begins September 15!  
PLease POST BELOW if you can join us!

 

The Girls of Atomic City                            
by Denise Kiernan

Based on first-person interviews with women who served at Oak Ridge, several of them now now in their eighties and nineties, Denise Kiernan  tells the  true story of young women during World War II who worked in a secret city dedicated to making fuel for the first atomic bomb—only they didn’t know that. At the dawn of the atomic age, the community of Oak Ridge, Tenn., rose up around the secret work taking place there in support of the war effort.  At the heart of those efforts were thousands of women from across the country who did their part to help secure the United States while maintaining a public silence.  They all knew something big was happening at Oak Ridge, but few could piece together the true nature of their work until the bomb "Little Boy" was dropped over Hiroshima, Japan, and the secret was out. The shocking revelation: the residents of Oak Ridge were enriching uranium for the atomic bomb.  They had NO idea!

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:

September 15-21~ Revelation, August 1945;
   Chapters 1, 2, 3  (62 pages)

 RELEVANT LINKS:
       An Interview with Denise Kiernan  about Atomic City girls, Listen to music  the girls would have listened to at Oak Ridge.

DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, Marcie,
PatH,
 

[JoanP]

Good morning!  Here are the results of the two recent polls for the next group discussion.  The second time indicated that most of you wanted to read and discuss Denise Kiernan's The Girls of Atomic City.  To tell the truth, I had never heard of the book.  It wasn't until I read about it after the vote came in - and after listening this   Interview with Denise Kiernan about Atomic City girls, that I realized now is the time to read this book - while these "girls" are still with us and willing to talk about their years working on the atomic bomb.
What really impressed me - the fact that these workers had no idea what they were working on, and the dangers involved - unlike Rosie the Riveters.

We plan to begin on September 15. Please post below if you think you are able to join us.  If we have enough participants, we'll ask the author to join us!

[BeckiC]

Hi Joan
I just put a reserve on this book at my local library. I better hurry through the other 4 books I have in my pile right now. I hope to join in on this book discussion. I will do my best. The book sounds fascinating.
Becki

[PatH]

My library has plenty of copies, so I won't have a problem.

[marcie]

I should be getting a copy from the library in a couple of days. The story reminds me of a TV series I'm watching on WGN America -- Manhanttan. It's about the Manhattan Project to build the atomic bomb. All compartmentalized and secrecy was a top priority, even over safety.

[JoanP]

Oh good!  Happy to hear you will be joining us!  I think this will be fun - and educational. I never stopped to think about the people who were working to develop the bomb in Oak Ridge.  Thought they were all scientists working in secret - not everyday gals who were working in secret - with no idea what they were working on!  Is Oak Ridge still a town, or did it fold up as soon as the A bomb was dropped?  it sounds familiear...like "the Oakridge Boys"...

[bluebird24]

I will join. I want to learn more.

[PatH]

Oak Ridge is still a going research facility--don't know just what they're doing now.  Two years ago, an 82 year old pacifist nun and two male fellow activists, armed with bolt cutters, easily managed to penetrate the fortification and spray-paint a wall.  They went peacefully when arrested, and she was sentenced to several years in jail, the men somewhat longer.  They really owe her some gratitude instead.  She pointed out how poor their security was without doing any real damage; they have improved things since.  If she had been an actual saboteur, she could have done a lot of harm.

http://news.yahoo.com/nun-activists-sentenced-break-nuclear-facility-120402512--sector.html

[Frybabe]

I'll be here.

The Oak Ridge Boys started out in the 40's under another name in the gospel genre. They got so many invites to play in Oak Ridge that when one of the lead members at the time dropped out, they changed their name to Oak Ridge Quartet. Years later they changed it to Oak Ridge Boys and crossed over into country music.

We went through Oak Ridge when we "traveled" with William Least Half-Moon while reading his Blue Highways. As I recall, he didn't stop, just passed through.

Map1943-1945 http://www.atomicarchive.com/Maps/Images/oak_ridge_large.gif

[maryz]

Since I live only about 90 minutes from Oak Ridge, I read this one a year or so ago.  I'll be listening, mostly.

[mabel1015j]

I've put a hold on the one book at my library. It was due last week, so should be coming soon. I'm having cataract surgery on the first eye on the 15th, and on the second one on the 29th, so i don't know how much reading i should be doing. But it sounds interesting.

Jean

[Frybabe]

Too bad your library doesn't have an audio version, Jean, but you should be okay. Just don't overdo it for a while.

[bellamarie]

I have mixed emotions on reading this book.  I have never heard of it until it was selected to be on our Sept. list.  My library is not offering it on my ipad air, I can purchase it for $9.99 which is not a big deal.  My concern is when I read the top info my body reacted instantly with doubt, confusion, and even a little bit of judgement in knowing these women helped build a bomb that ultimately killed thousands of lives.  I looked for a little more info and I guess this sort of sums up my feelings....

Project, the top secret program that produced the atomic bomb.  Selected in 1942 for its remoteness, the area, "a big war site" hiring at top dollar, immediately boomed; from across the U.S., tens of thousands of workers streamed in a many of women looking to broaden their horizons and fatten their purses.  Fully integrated into the system, women worked every job, from courier to chemist.  They found an "instant community" with "no history," but also "a secret city...a project whose objective was largely kept from them."  Living conditions were Spartan Urine samples and guards were intrusive constants but the women lived their lives.  Kiernan's (Signing Their Lives Away) interviewees describe falling in love and smuggling in liquor in tampon boxes.  But like everyone else, those lives were disrupted by news of Hiroshima.  "Now you know what we've been doing all this time," said one of the scientists.  Many moved on; others stayed , Atomic City had become home.  But for the women of Oak Ridge, "a strange mix of ...pride and guilt and joy and shame" endured.  This intimate and revealing glimpse into one of the most important scientific developments in history will appeal to a broad audience.      Nov 26, 2012 Publishers Weekly Review

I can't imagine how I would feel knowing I personally had a hand in helping create something that would be used to kill human lives.  The fact these women knew it was secret, heavily patrolled, and was paying top dollar had to make them suspicious of what they were doing.  Maybe in reading the book and discussing it may be an eye opener for me..........I read the book Hiroshima in my High School English Lit class and received an outstanding grade for class participation.  I still feel the sadness from reading that book.

We are so close to entering war with ISIS, and I can barely watch the news at night anymore, due to seeing the innocent lives being killed, the genocide of Christians, and the beheading of now two American journalists.  As much as this president wants to hold his ideology of no wars, and believe we can all get along and talk things through, it is appearing more and more evident some terrorists, enemies, have other ideas.  With Sept. 11 coming in just a few days I pray we'll all be safe.  So, I may hang back a few days to decide where I am at with reading this book, a reminder of war and lost lives.

Ciao for now~   

[JoanP]

Welcome, Frybabe, bluebird, Jean Mary Z.   Jean, hoping your procedure goes well...and there is every reaon to believe it will.  I wonder too if you can access the book audially.
  MaryZ...90 minutes away? Might you consider a day in Oak Ridge with your camera - once we get into the book?

Maybe you'll need to think about putting out $10 for a story you are prepared not to like, Bella.  You are not the only one who has struggled with the justification for wiping out the civilian popuation of these two Japanese cities.

I don't think anyone had any idea what was being worked on in Oak Ridge at this time...no concept of a bomb capable of what the A Bomb achieved.  I can't wait to hear from the women who came to Oak Ridge to work on something that would end the war that was taking so many lives.

Denise Kiernan's book is based on interviews with the women who came to Oak Ridge.  I look forward to their reaction after Hiroshima once they learned what their part had been.

[marcie]

There is an interesting blog/article at http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2013/10/04/atomic-bomb-used-nazi-germany/ that seems to me to present a balanced view of the arguments for and against the development and use of the atomic bomb.

It focuses on whether Germany was an initial target but discusses the use of the bomb on Japan.

[bellamarie]

JoanP. 

Maybe you'll need to think about putting out $10 for a story you are prepared not to like, Bella.  You are not the only one who has struggled with the justification for wiping out the civilian popuation of these two Japanese cities.

 I am not so much feeling I am prepared not to like the book, I feel a bit like the review said the women felt, "a strange mix of ...pride and guilt and joy and shame" endured.

With 911 approaching and ISIS declaring war on the United States, this book seems to renew and heighten feelings of war, bombs, and lost lives.  I may follow the discussion.

[ursamajor]

I would like to participate.  I lived in Oak Ridge for 26 years and at one time worked in the library at Oak Ridge National Laboratory.

[maryz]

Ursa, I didn't know you had lived there.  I've sent you an e-mail.

[JoanP]

Oh wow!  Ursa aren't we fortunate to have you join us! Are you free to tell us WHEN you worked in the Lab there?  Do you have a copy of Denise Kiernan's book? If so, are you familiar with any of the names she mentions?

I'm too excited, mind is racing too fast.  Will slow down and wait until you get the book - and start reading it!  Do you still live in Tennessee?

[marcie]

WOW, ursamajor. I can't wait to hear more!

[kidsal]

OK - have it on my Kindle.

[ursamajor]

I haven't yet read the book but have ordered it from Amazon.  Alas, Thrift Books doesnt't have it yet.

 We stilll live close to Oak Ridge and go back and forth frequently (mostly to doctors' appointments these days).  I only know one of the women covered in the book, Colleen Black, slightly.  We didn't arrive in Oak Ridge until after the gates were open, in 1953, so these women are a fair amount older than I.  I did know one of the Calutron Girls well.

My husband attended The Oak Ridge School of Reactor Technology, a program to train nuclear engineers because all the material was classified and couldn't be taught in the universities.  We had a two bedroom apartment because I was pregnant at the time; couples were housed in much less desirable apartments.  All the buildings were cemesto, and the downtown area was heated by a steam plant with overhead pipes to the buildings.  Most people heated with coal and in the winter the smog was thick enough to slice and spread on bread.  Not much like Oak Ridge today; the residential areas have been remodeled and resided so it looks much like any other small city.  It is hard to find an unimproved cemesto today. 

[PatH]

Assuming you would want to find one.  What's cemesto?

I picked up my book from the library, but have been waiting for the perfume smell to lessen (I'm allergic to perfumes, and have this problem a lot with library books.  Guess I'll have to resort to my trick of reading it through a plastic bag.

[JoanP]

Oh Pat...is the perfumey smell just with paperback copies - or hard cover too?  It must be difficult to read through a plastic bag!  Can you leave it in the sun to bake out the odor...or freeze it?  I'm going to hunt on the Net and see if there are any helpful hints from otheres with the same problem!

Ursa - this is so amazing to find someone who walked the grounds of Oakridge - worked there - and even knew one of the "girls" interviewed in the book!  Yes, what is cemesto?  I gather it was the material the buildings were made of when the Atomic City was built?  Why was cemesto used, do you know?

Kidsal - good to know you know you were able to get the book on Kindle.  Welcome!

[maryz]

Here's the Wikipedia article about cemesto...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemesto 

[Frybabe]

I don't imagine too many people would want to live in a house that incorporated asbestos in structural materials, not these days anyhow. It's very expensive to remove and replace asbestos, not to mention health concerns.

I picked up my copy of the book from the library this afternoon before it disappears off the shelf again.

[PatH]

Of course they didn't realize the health effects of asbestos back then, but I'm guessing that the homes were safe enough to live in.  The asbestos would be sealed in the cement mixture, and it's only dangerous as a dust that can be inhaled.

[maryz]

It's my understanding that it's better now to seal the asbestos and leave it alone and contained than it is to tear things up to remove it and let all the particles out into the atmosphere.  You'd have to google that to find out.

[ursamajor]

Almost all of the cemesto homes in Oak Ridge are still occupied.  My understanding is that most retain the cemesto boards and siding or brick is installed on top.  These houses were built to last ten years and are still in use more than 60 years later.  They were designed by Skidmore, Owings and Merril and there were five floor plans, A, B, C, D, and F with A being a very small two bedroom and (only a few) Fs which were occupied by the top scientists.  There were also E apartments (4 apts per building, and H buildings, which were originally dormitories.  There were also flattop houses and what were known as TDUs - two dwelling units.  The labor force mostly occupied the flattops and TDUs.  We moved to Oak Ridge too late to be assigned a cemesto.

Thanks, MaryZ for the Wicki history.  Interesting.

[ANNIE]

I voted for this book but have a trip planned for visiting our newest great grandson that week and part of the week after.  I have requested the book and the sound recording.  I am #1 on both lists.  It should be ready for pickup by next week.

[JoanP]

So already, we have a connection with one of the Atomic City "girls" - Ursa knew Colleen Black.  I found a photo of her - and we'll be reading her story about how  she came to Oak Ridge next week.   For those who already have book in hand, we just put the discussion schecule for the first week in the heading here - The heading is always the first post at the top of each page.

Hopefully you won't be overwhelmed by the number of names introduced at the start...in order of appearance!  Imagine what it must have been like back at the time when you met hundreds of new girls every day!

Ursa, I see you came to Oak Ridge in 1953.  The labs remained open and operating after the Hiroshima and Nagasaki?  Even after those in Oak Ridge knew what they were working on?

Annie, good, you'll get the book in time to start - and hopefully will have some time to share your observations with us whenever you can.  I wish you'd get in touch with Ella - don't you think she'd love this book!  Better than fiction.  If this was fiction, you wouldn't believe it!

ps smiling at Ursa's comment regarding the cemesto housing - "These houses were built to last ten years and are still in use more than 60 years later!"

[JoanP]

If any of you has a minute or two to click these two links to see if they work, it would be much appreciated as we will be attempting to learn how folks in Oak Ridge reacted when news of the bombing in Japan occurred.

These are each links to 5 minute videos...same video.  I'm just curious to know if the links work - if we can use them during the discussion.  I think you have to wait a minute for it to load...if either link works at all...Thanks!

http://smithdray1.net/angeltowns/or/video/scy12.wmv

http://smithdray1.net/angeltowns/or/video/scy12.mov

[ursamajor]

Oak Ridge National Laboratory is still very much a going concern.  The weapons work is not performed there anymore, but at an installation called Y-12, managed by a different contractor.  I think they are mostly reconditioning existing weapons now, but the work is still secret.

I was still in Junior High when the bombs were dropped on the Japanese cities, but from everything I have heard the news was greeted with great rejoicing and pride that this had essentially won the war.  You would have to remember the national state of mind during the war to realize that probably  nobody felt the least bit queasy about the atomic bomb.  It probably saved lives in the long run as the Japanese were quite tenacious and an invasion of Japan would have cost an enormous number of lives, both Japanese and Allied.

[bellamarie]

ursamajor, 

You would have to remember the national state of mind during the war to realize that probably  nobody felt the least bit queasy about the atomic bomb. It probably saved lives in the long run as the Japanese were quite tenacious and an invasion of Japan would have cost an enormous number of lives, both Japanese and Allied.

That's an interesting statement, and understandable outlook.  With war, it is a quagmire.  I know vets who fought and saw their best friends die along side them.  Knowing they were fighting to protect our country, and knowing they must kill to save their own lives, they expressed how they felt not only queasy, but out right nauseous, knowing the grenade they threw or guns they shot were killing lives.  I think it's our human nature to feel queasy when knowing we contribute in taking another person's life.  It is an act that goes against our human nature, yet it has to be done.  We cheer and celebrate, yet days, weeks, months and even years later we deal with the psychological problems.  PTS is one of the leftover traumas, these soldiers deal with in their lives.  I venture to guess the women who did help build the A-Bomb dealt with mixed feelings of pride and guilt, regardless of the justification.

Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

Was anyone able to access the video in either of the two links in Post #31

Please try this one. I'd like to know if it works...
 
http://smithdray1.net/angeltowns/or/video/scy12.wmv

From the comments in this video and from what Ursamajor has been saying, there weren't those feelings of guilt at the time - more jubilation and congratulatory - due to their efforts, they beat the Germans, who were developing a similar weapon of destruction...and they were responsible for bringing the war to an end, bringing the boys home, etc.  
It there were feelings of guilt, they would come later, I think.  It will be interesting to read the book and see if we see any of that in these first person interviews.

[PatH]

Yes, ursamajor and Bellamarie, it's going to be important, as we read this book, to remember the mindset of the time.  We were in a long war to defend ourselves against nations whose leaders seemed to be trying to take over the world and destroy our way of life, and were behaving in a cruel and evil way in the process.  Germany was working on an atomic bomb too, which made it make sense to try to develop it.

After Germany surrendered, the final step of the war was going to have to be the invasion of Japan, which was going to be difficult and bloody, costing huge numbers of lives, both American and Japanese, and including lots of civilians.  (I think historians still believe that the total number of lives lost in an invasion would have been much greater than those lost from the bomb.)  So one can see why people made decisions then that they probably regretted, and wouldn't have made later, if they could go back in time and change things.

Now we know more about the effects of the bomb, and can stand back and see how things could have been done better.

[PatH]

JoanP, you were posting while I was writing.  I'll look at the video now.

[PatH]

JoanP, that video link didn't let me just watch it, it wanted to download a 14 MB video, which I wasn't willing to do.

[ursamajor]

Most of my friends in Oak Ridge were too young to have worked on the development of the atomic bomb, but I have never heard an Oak Ridger say they regretted working on that project.  It ended the war.  Many young men returned to raise families and contribute to progress who would otherwise have been killed in action.

A few years ago a "friendship bell", a gift from a Japanese city (I Don't remember which one) was installed in Oak Ridge.  The inscription equated Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima.  While many people supported the bell, others resented the implication that one action that they were equivalent.

http://webpages.charter.net/yokoken/bell.htm

[JoanP]

PatH - thank you for trying out the link.  Funny it worked for me...actually both of them did...without asking me to download, anything at all.  All computers are different, aren't they?  I won't use those links once the discussion gets started.  Thanks for testing~

And Ursamajor, your input is invaluable.  Thank you so much for joining us.  Have you ever seen the Frendship Bell?

"Although international in its message, the bell specifically incorporates the Oak Ridge-Japan historical link because the initial concept was suggested by Oak Ridger and Japanese-American Shigeko Uppuluri and her late husband Ram. It is historically relevant for our community, and the project has been supported strongly in both countries.
The City of Oak Ridge has provided the land required for the bell pavilion and grounds within the park. The pavilion and grounds are visible from the town's main thoroughfare, the Oak Ridge Turnpike.

The Friendship Bell will be unique: there are only two such bells known to exist in the United States. Its Oak Ridge location will make it the first U.S.-Japan monument at any Manhattan Project site..."