Girls of Atomic City by Denise Kiernan Mid-September/October Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in!

Discussion Begins September 15  
Everyone is welcome!

 

The Girls of Atomic City                            
by Denise Kiernan

Based on first-person interviews with women who served at Oak Ridge, several of them now now in their eighties and nineties, Denise Kiernan  tells the  true story of young women during World War II who worked in a secret city dedicated to making fuel for the first atomic bomb—only they didn’t know that. At the dawn of the atomic age, the community of Oak Ridge, Tenn., rose up around the secret work taking place there in support of the war effort.  At the heart of those efforts were thousands of women from across the country who did their part to help secure the United States while maintaining a public silence.  They all knew something big was happening at Oak Ridge, but few could piece together the true nature of their work until the bomb was dropped over Hiroshima, Japan, and the secret was out. The shocking revelation: the residents of Oak Ridge were enriching uranium for the atomic bomb.  They had NO idea!

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:

September 15-21~ Introduction & Revelation, August 1945;
   Chapters 1, 2, 3  (62 pages)
September 22-28 ~ Tube Alloy, 1938
   Chapters 4,5



 RELEVANT LINKS:
       An Interview with Denise Kiernan  about Atomic City girls, Listen to music  the girls would have listened to at Oak Ridge.

For Your Consideration
September 15-21

Introduction
1.  How widely known were predictions of an atomic weapon  in the years before WWII - i.e HG Wells in 1914?
2.  Who first used the term "tube alloy"?  Where did it come from?  What does it mean?
3.  From reading the "cast of characters in the Introduction, can you conclude how the author decided which of the many "girls" she had interviewed to feature in this book?  Which of these girls got your attention?

Chapter 1 Train to Nowhere
1. What did Celia Szapka have in common with the other recruits for the Project?  Didn't the secrecy concern any of them?  
2. How did their experience differ?

Chapter II Taking of Site X, 1942
1. Why were surveyors considered "harbingers of doom" in East Tennessee at this time? What did you think of the way land was acquired for the Project?  Where did everyone go after losing their homes?
2.  How did these recruits differ from the well-known Rosie the Riveter?

Tube Alloy- element 92
1. Do you understand why the geochemist, Ida Naddack, was mocked when she questioned why the Italian physicist, Enrico Fermi stopped experimenting when he reached element 82 on the periodic table (lead)?
2. Do you understand what she had accomplished?

Chapter 3 Through the Gates
1. Did the Presidential Executive Order 8802 and the Fair Employment Practices put an end to desegregation in  Tennessee at this time?  How were Kattie and Willie Strickland treated compared to white recruits?
2. What were some of the problems the Project faced in recruitment to the CEW?  Do you really think everyone got such a thorough background check as Jane Hallibuton Greer?
3. Can you share some of the details that caught you eye in this chapter - Chutes and Ladders, I.Miller shoes, for example?
 

DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, Marcie, PatH,
 

[JoanP]

Welcome everyone!  If you've started the opening chapters, you probably have many questions and observations regarding the recruitment to the secret Project at the Clinton Engineering Works in Eastern Tennessee. Please feel free to enter the conversation!  As we share our thoughts and listen to one another's comments, some of the many questions you have will probably be answered.

The discussion schedule for each week is in the heading (the first post at the top of each page) - there are also some questions in the heading, but please don't feel you must limit your remarks to them, though hopefully our conversation will touch on each of these in the coming week.

Looking forward to hearing from you!

 

[JoanP]

Just opened the gates!  Thanks, Jane! Let's see who gets here first!

[mabel1015j]

Should we start commenting on the book, or wait til tomorrow?

Jean

[JoanP]

You're first, Jean!  and ready to chat - except no one else is here yet.

But since the door was unlocked, feel free to put the tea - or coffee on - and let's begin!  Hardcover or paperback?

[Frybabe]

I'm reading the hardcover, JoanP.

[maryz]

I'm here.

[marcie]

I'm reading a hardcover copy from the library. Just started and think that it will be very interesting getting a "home front" view of World War II. I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.

[bluebird24]

I am here, too.


www.girlsofatomiccity.com/

[bluebird24]

http://www.messynessychic.com/2013/11/14/a-trip-down-memory-lane-to-americas-secret-atomic-city/


Go down page.
There are pictures here.
You can click on them.

[maryz]

bluebird, I love MessyNessyChic. 

[mabel1015j]

Hardcopy!

For those of you who have seen Oak Ridge recently, is any of it operating as a government entity? Is there any sense of a "town" still there? Is there anything in the area that would make contractors want to build a development there? Or is it just nothing?

When i read that Celia's father had no work in the mines in the summer, that confused me. Why would the mines close in the summer? Then i thought, can it be as simple as folks aren't buying coal for home furnaces in the summer? It seems very strange to me that they wouldn't have some kind of market in the summer, or just mine for a build up for winter. What do you think?

I was also surprised that when talking about Celia ordering grits in the Cafe in Knoxville that it mentions there was a black waiter. That sounds wrong to me. Would a white restaurant have hired a black man as a waiter in Knoxville, in 1943?

BY THE WAY, i don't think i would just go to a job without knowing where or why. There were too many jobs available in 1943, i wouldn't need to take something mysterious.

Jean

[BeckiC]

Hi all. Pardon me while I jump in with my initial thoughts as I began reading the book. It's a late hour so I hope to make some sense. 
I love the clever way Denise Kiernan sets this story up. From the introduction to the cast of characters, the map and then that page and a half bombshell, "Revelation, August 1945." Was that a great opening or what!
I am fascinated by these women. It was such a different time and mindset in the country than where we are now. I was caught between complete pride in how patriotic everyone seemed and complete shock at how blindly they committed. I mean really, to leave your home and family for a virtual unknown except it was work and it (pg.7) "served one purpose only:to bring a speedy and victorious end to the war."  As Tom Brokaw termed the folks from that era, "the greatest generation." They surely get my vote on that one.
I am also fascinated with the history of the science behind the atom bomb and the snapshot of my country back then. The issues of equality, women's rights, land ownership, government power...all of it.
Chapter 3-question 3-- My family had a Lionel train track and trains set up on a big piece of plywood in our Illinois basement (early 60's) so it was interesting to me that Lionel only offered paper trains that Christmas of 1943. Everything was affected by WWII.
That's all I've got for now.
P.S. I really enjoyed seeing the pictures on the messynessychic link. Wonderful!!
Becki

[Frybabe]

1. I suspect that, as with many such discoveries, the military complex takes an interest. Once X-rays and radioactivity were discovered near the end of the 1800s, scientists do their thing and publish papers. So, on a limited basis, limited because not many people other than other scientists could or would read those papers, the possibility of weapons made from radioactive materials would have been public knowledge. The exception, of course, would be actual military related experiments that were labeled secret and above.

I don't think predictions of the atomic bomb would have been widely known or thought about except in scientific circles and the imaginations of science fiction writers and their readers. I don't know about back then, but most of today's science fiction writers do research the latest experiments and gadgets that science and technology have to offer in order to project future advances. So the question for me becomes which comes first, early discovery and experiment or the science fiction writer's imagination? Does the writer think up something and then go looking for actual scientific efforts, or vice versa? Many of the experiments we are just now hearing about have been ongoing experiments for years, including "Total Recall" style downloading and uploading of memories, controlling computers and robots via direct brain connections, and of course, the enhanced, smart body armor. I myself am waiting for the ansible. Google glasses are just the beginning.

H. G. Wells may have coined the term atomic bomb, but Cleve Cartmill and his publisher, John Campbell, gave the government virtual heart attacks with the publication of "Deadline" in 1944.  http://boingboing.net/2014/07/29/the-1944-science-fiction-story.html

[ursamajor]

The MessyNessy photographs were interesting.  The only glaring error was about the F houses, which were large, one story family homes reserved for the top people.  There were only about 57 of them.  Some of them even had two bathrooms!  I believe they are every one still occupied.  The four unit complex described was probably an E apartment house.

The photo fo the Guest House was interesting.  I spent the night of my first wedding anniversay there.  The bathroom was down the hall.  The building has been gutted and is currently being converted to an assisted living facility.  I can't wait to see what they have done with it.  They have preserved the facade.  We might consider living there when we can no longer occupy our home.

Oak Ridge is still very much a government town.  Two of the three plants are still in operation.  The Oak Ridge National Laboratory occupies the x-10 site, and Y-12 is still doing weapons work.  K-25 is in the process of being demolished. 
The work going on at Y-12 is still very much secret.

[JoanP]

Wonderful - You have found your way here - and Jean had the coffee ready for the early risers!

Bluebird...the sites are marvelous!  Thank you!  I too enjoy the photographs.  We'll be reading about Ed Westcott in Denise Kiernan's book -
"These photographs taken by the only authorised photographer for the entire town, Ed Westcott, documented life at Oak Ridge, from everyday moments of a seemingly normal suburban American town, to the residents performing their ‘tasks’ and ‘duties’ inside the secret nuclear facilities."


There were so many "girls" Denise K. interviewed.  Can you guess why she selected those that she did for her book?  Are you having any difficulty keeping their stories straight?  I've got a bookmark in the introduction - keep flipping back to the little bios for reference.
  I liked the close-up of the group - you can see them better than those on the book cover -
I think the photographs drive home the idea that this was another time in which these girls lived.  I was only a child at the time, but the pictures, the hairdos, the skirts (no slacks!)  seem very familiar to me.

As Becki points out - it is the information from Denise Kiernan's interviews that we get "the snapshot of my country back then. The issues of equality, women's rights, land ownership, government power...all of it."
 

[maryz]

Oak Ridge is a thriving suburban small city (other than being as ursamajor said, a one-employer town). 

I'd think there might well have been a black waiter in a white restaurant, although more likely in the kitchen as a dishwasher. Definitely only a server, though.

[JoanP]

Jean - interesting questions about summer coal mining - and the wait  staff in restaurants.  Does anyone have an explanation?  My guess is that there wasn't a big market for coal in the summer, so some miners' jobs were cut.  Maryz maybe with so many people off in the war, blacks were brought in from the kitchen to help with the service.  What did you think of Jean's close reading?

Ursa - your on the ground presence in Oak Ridge is invaluable!  Please don't go away!  Your answer to Jean's question, for example -

"Oak Ridge is still very much a government town.  Two of the three plants are still in operation.  The Oak Ridge National Laboratory occupies the x-10 site, and Y-12 is still doing weapons work.  K-25 is in the process of being demolished.  
The work going on at Y-12 is still very much secret."

Are you allowed to share where your husband worked at war's end?  How long did you both work in Oak Ridge ?

 We'll think of you when reading about that Guest House...spending your first wedding anniversay there.  And - you  might consider living there when we can no longer occupy our home.  How romantic!

[JoanP]

Frybabe - interesting thoughts on the bomb and science fiction/HG Wells, who coined the term, "atomic bomb."  I haven't read the link you provided yet - but have a whole bunch of questions on "Tube Alloy."
 Does it sound to you as if Denise Kiernan had a scientific background?  She really gets into detail when describing this! Since there are many chapters on tube alloy - it seems we should make the effort to understand it...  How about it?  Can anyone explain it - in small doses - short sentences.  So that even I can understand...

[Frybabe]

No, Ms. Kiernan has a degree in the Arts. She has done freelance journalism, did a stint as head writer for So You Want to Be a Millionaire, produced some works for several cable stations, done some ghost writing, as well as co-authored several books with her husband, Joseph D'Agnese.  She must take good research notes and be able to put into understandable form.

Tube Alloy is a term I hadn't run across before this. A Google search doesn't really help. Wikipedia says Tube Alloys was the British code name for their nuclear program during the war. I found a company that sells a tube alloy which it says is used to surface products that must be able to take extreme abrasion. Those listed looked mostly like parts you might find on heavy excavation/mining machinery. Another company with Tube Alloy in its name appears to customize tubing primarily for the petroleum industry. I guess I'll have to read on to see what Kiernan says.

[ursamajor]

Tube alloy was a substitute word for uranium and its isotopes.  Because uranium is naturally radioactive and the raw material for the project the word couldn't be used.

My husband and I didn't come to Oak Ridge until 1953, well after the war was over.  He attended the Oak Ridge School of Reactor Technology, a program established by Admiral Rickover to train reactor engineers.  He spent most of his career working in Oak Ridge, eventually doing scientific computer programming.  Because he workedwithr people in many disciplines he has publications in many areas.

Today is our wedding anniversary, the 62nd; 61 years since we spent the night at the Guest House.

[Frybabe]

Happy Anniversary, Ursa!

[JoanP]

Yes, to echo Fry - A very happy anniversary, Ursamajor!  Does this bring back memories?

[bluebird24]

Happy anniversary, Ursa!

[maryz]

Happy Anniversary, Ursa, and best wishes for many more.

[marcie]

Happy anniversary, ursa. I love the photo of "your" guest house and the close-up photo of that line of women with others behind. I am particularly struck with the "secrecy" billboard: Make C.E.W. count. Continue to PROTECT project information."

Frybabe, that podcast about the science fiction story, DEADLINE, that came out a year before the atomic bomb looks like it will be very interesting. Is it about 37 minutes long? I'm going to try to listen to it later. Thanks for the link.  Secrecy is so much a part of life in so many ways. It's a topic that's intriguing and I'm going to be following that theme in this book.

[Frybabe]

Marcie, the discussion about Deadline, Cartmill, and Campbell takes up about 15:30 minutes of the podcast.  The rest is about other things, interesting but unrelated to our discussion.

[bellamarie]

Happy Anniversary Ursa!!  62 years, oh how I hope my hubby and I make it to that, we are at 43 so far.  Seems I was not even thought of when this project was taking place, since I was born in 1952.  I look at the picture of the women and seeing all their dresses, skirts and blouses really dates us back to a whole different era.  I noticed how well fit and in good physical shape they seem to be in.

I think someone said we have to remember to put our mindset back to this time frame.  I will try to follow along and hope to get the book from my library.  So far no luck.  Pictures sure do help me, thank you all for those links and pics.

Ciao for now~

[marcie]

Thanks for the info, Frybabe.

[JoanP]

I can see that you are going to be a help with understanding the Tubealloy chapters, Fry!  I'm afraid I have little patience with them - because my mind isn't wired to understand such matters.  I do see them as being important to the Project, however...and will welcome any help in understanding them.  Those chapters are bringing up a number of questions.

Don't know if I told you we'd invited the author to the discussion.  I was disappointed to get this response from her agent/publisher - would have liked to ask her about her background...where did she get so much of the scientific information from?

"So sorry for the delay. Unfortunately, Denise Kiernan currently does not have room in her schedule to come  into book clubs. We are working on taking that option down from her website for the time being. Thank you so much for your understanding!"

Becki wrote earlier yesterday -
"I love the clever way Denise Kiernan sets this story up. From the introduction to the cast of characters, the map ... the history of the science behind the atom bomb"  
I appreciated the fact that she broke up the explanation of Tubealloy, with the background of the girls who had no idea what the substance was - alternating the discovery of the properties of the substance with the recruiting of the girls.
I'm glad that she doesn't provide long Tubealloy sections...just enough to move the story along.
 

[JoanP]

Ursa tells us that Tubealloy was a substitute word for uranium and its isotopes.  Because uranium is naturally radioactive and the raw material for the project the word "uranium" couldn't be used." 
Wasn't it dangerous working with radioactive material?  Was anyone aware of the dangers?  I guess we'll soon see.
Jean, you say you wouldn't have blindly signed on for the project without more information.  Why do you think so many thousands take the job offer at Oak Ridge if there was other work available?

Bella - are you saying that your library doesn't carry the book - or that all copies are checked out?

[bellamarie]

JoanP., We had a difficult time finding a copy in the many libraries in and around my town.  Many of them do not carry it, and when I kept searching online none of the libraries were showing it at all.  Alas!  They have finally located me a copy and I will be able to pick it up tomorrow.   No e-reader copies.      I really did not want to pay for the book, so hard copy it will be.

[BeckiC]

Ursa- Congratulations on your anniversary!! Wonderful!

Bellamarie-- I am just a few years behind you and I noticed the style of dress as well. I think I was born after my time. I love that style. I hate today's fashions with everything hanging out. The gals in the picture all look so together. I enjoy men in shirt and tie as well.

Wasn't it dangerous working with radioactive material?  Was anyone aware of the dangers?  I guess we'll soon see. ---   I thought I read somewhere that the girls doing the laundry would pass the detector(I am assuming this was to check for radioactivity) over the clothes and if the alarm/bell/whatever sounded they would wash them again. I wonder if those girls suffered effects of radiation. My first thought knowing they were building this bomb and working around uranium was WOW, they have lived a long time for possibly being exposed. So I will be paying close attention to who did what kind of work while at Oak Ridge.

[Frybabe]

This paragraph on p69 really struck me.

The Project liked high school girls, especially those from rural backgrounds. Recruiters sought them out relentlessly, feeling young women were easy to instruct. They did what they were told. They weren't overly curious. If you tell a young woman of 18 from a small-town background to do something, she'll do it, no questions asked. Educated women and men, people who had gone to college and learned just enough to think that they might "know" something, gave you problems.

My how times have changed. Nowadays, an employer will barely, if at all, look at you if you have only a high school degree. They are less likely to want to deal with on the job training, thinking that college grads will not need any or as much. And for young women doing as they are told, no questions asked, HAH! I'm as "curious as a cat" and like to understand the whys for doing something a certain way.

That's an interesting question. When DID people become aware that radioactive material was so dangerous just being close to it? As a side note, my Uncle's family are from the Reading area of PA. Reading sits atop the Reading Prong, a formation that contains Uranium which decays into Radon. Many of his family ended up with cancer.

[bellamarie]

BeckiC.,   I love the women's dress back then too, except today I am more jogging/sweatpants, and tee shirts or sweatshirts.  I go for comfort, until Sunday when I have to dress for church. 

Since I don't have my book just yet, I am relying on y'all's info, and in reading the women had to scan the clothes and wash them a second time if it went off, for me that is a sure way to alert ME, something is not right in the work that's being done.

Frybabe,   

Reading sits atop the Reading Prong, a formation that contains Uranium which decays into Radon. Many of his family ended up with cancer.

This reminds me of when my son was young and was hired by Cooper Tires to work at a very good hourly wage.  Him being young, barely out of High School, he could have saved and made a ton of money IF he had stayed with them for very long.  He came home only after two shifts of working on the hot line of making the rubber and we decided it was not a job for him.  He had major burns on his arms from the heat of the rubber, not to mention his clothes smelled so bad he had to take them to the garage.  I refused to put them in my washer for fear of chemicals.  I was extremely concerned for his health, we discussed it and decided it was not worth risking his health for wealth.  Best decision we ever made.  He was meant to be corporate, behind a desk creating programs for Ford Motor Company transporting vehicles that saves them millions of dollars a year.  It will be interesting to see if and how many who worked at the Oak Ridge plant did come down with any cancers.  What about even those who live in and around the area?  I wonder if they have higher rates of deaths or cancer cases?

[maryz]

One thing we have to keep reminding ourselves when reading this book is that these were totally different times.  People from rural areas (women AND men) were not very well educated.  The country was only just coming out of the Depression which had hit these rural areas extremely hard.  Jobs were just not available, so any legitimate source of income would be a godsend. 

Oak Ridge was built literally out in a non-populated area.  It's very hilly, so could be kept isolated. 

We can't judge these people by today's standards.

[BeckiC]

Reading sits atop the Reading Prong, a formation that contains Uranium which decays into Radon

I have friends who moved to this area several years back. I don't like the sound of this. And it is a natural formation? And then we compound our problems with waste products from manufacturing, farming, etc. I like the question WHEN DID people become aware of the dangers of radioactivity. If not for whistleblowers, activists, etc just imagine what our lives would be like. We need each other to keep ourselves in check. Otherwise we have become what we were fighting against with the atomic bomb. Which makes me wonder if we had known as a nation the great and utter destruction the bomb would cause would we/could we have stopped it? Hmm. As Mary's states it was a different time.
I just noticed at the back of the book (I have a hardcopy) is a wonderful Notes section.

[JoanP]

Maryz, thank you for that reminder.  Can't say it often enough.

Becki described this period in our history well as  "a snapshot of my country back then...

"One thing we have to keep reminding ourselves when reading this book is that these were totally different times.  We can't judge these people by today's standards."

I know I found my fur rising when reading of Kattie and her husband, Willie, not allowed to live together -  whose children were not allowed to move to Oak Ridge with their parents - because black children were not allowed. "  My question?  Were white children allowed?
 

"At Clinton, blacks were primarily laborers, janitors and domestics - and they lived in segregated housing, no matter their education or background."

Okay, will try to remember this is "a snapshot of the times" - but then to read of the Presidential Executive Order 8802 - "no descrimation in defense industries"  - and the Fair Employment Practices committee - which was said "to put an end to segregation in Tenn."

Makes you wonder how the Project could override thes laws and continue the descrimnation?  Is this a snapshot of the powers of the Project?

[JoanP]

Becki - just read your post... hopefully the radon has been removed from the affected Reading area.  What do you think?  I know there's a way to do it, but how extensive is the contaminated area?

Good point -  I hope everyone notices those helpful notes in the back of the book - they cover each chapter, as you read.

ps.  Please note that you can read at whatever pace you wish, but for the sake of this discussion - please don't comment on later chapters out of consideration for those who are reading with the discussion schedule posted in the heading.  This week we are discussing only to the end of Chapter 3 - which is page 56 in the hardcover, I think.  Thanks!

[Frybabe]

hopefully the radon has been removed from the affected Reading area

Becki, that would be a little hard to do.

The Reading Prong is a granitic rock formation is part of a larger rock formation that extends up into the lower part of Connecticut and into New Jersey and in turn is within the Appalachian Mountain deposits.  Want to scare yourself? Check out all the urainium deposits detected in the US. http://geology.about.com/library/bl/maps/blusradiationmap.htm Many people, to combat high levels of Radon seeping into their homes and businesses, install a device that monitors and vents the Radon outside. I am not sure how they remove radon from water supplies. Most people don't realize how ubiquitous radioactive materials are. Even building materials like cinderblock (is that even made any more?) and brick can harbor low levels of radiation. The EPA estimated that in 2010, 21,000 could be attributed to Radon. Pennsylvania is among those states with the highest cancer rates in the nation. I don't know how many of those can be attributed to Radon. Everyone is exposed to some background radiation. The concern is about how much and how long when it comes to exposure.

If you are interested in naturally occurring radioactive materials, the World Nuclear Association has a website with info on things nuclear. http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Safety-and-Security/Radiation-and-Health/Naturally-Occurring-Radioactive-Materials-NORM/