Author Topic: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online  (Read 63675 times)

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10917
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2015, 11:18:36 AM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

January Book Club Online:

The  Boys in the Boat
by Daniel James Brown


 
The #1 New York Times–bestselling story about American Olympic triumph in Nazi Germany.

 "Out of the depths of the Depression comes an irresistible story about beating the odds and finding hope in the most desperate of times—the improbable, intimate account of how nine working-class boys from the American West showed the world at the 1936 Olympics in Berlin what true grit really meant...

 The emotional heart of the tale lies with Joe Rantz, a teenager without family or prospects, who rows not only to regain his shattered self-regard but also to find a real place for himself in the world. Drawing on the boys’ own journals and vivid memories of a once-in-a-lifetime shared dream, Brown has created an unforgettable portrait of an era, a celebration of a remarkable achievement, and a chronicle of one extraordinary young man’s personal quest." - Amazon.com
 
 



DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:


PROLOGUE, PART ONE..............................JANUARY  l -  7          
PART TWO...............................................JANUARY  8 - 14
PART THREE............................................JANUARY 15 - 21
PART FOUR Ch. 13-15...............................JANUARY 22 - 28
PART FOUR Ch. 16-end.............................JANUARY  29 - FEBRUARY 4
~




QUESTIONS PART II

1. We learn a lot about rowing and boat building technique in this section. What did you find most interesting or strange?

2. If you have competed in a different sport, what do you relate to in the rowers' experiences.

3. Joe suffers from the "elitism" of some other boys. What other forms of elitism do we see in this section? Do you see any similar problems in your own life?

4. Why do you think rowing events were so popular as spectator sports then ("as important as the World Series", larger crowds than football games), and not now?

5. Do you find the description of the races exciting? How does the author maintain suspense, when we know the outcome?

6. Does learning about Joe's stepmother's family change your opinion of her?

7. We've now met two different craftspeople/innovators: the English boat builder and the German filmmaker. Do you see any similarities?  

RELEVANT LINKS:
1936 Film of Olympic Rowing

Daniel James Brown Website and Information

Interview With the Author, Daniel James Brown  

Triumph of the Will  - Nazi propaganda film

Indoor Rowers Training Techniques 


Discussion Leaders: Ella & JoanK


PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10917
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2015, 11:19:35 AM »
Hysteria:
Quote
As Joe bonds more and more with the "boat" and everything that makes the boat so important to him, we will be transported to the inner workings of his mind (at least I hope so).

Thanks to Brown's extensive conversations with Joe, and to Joe's daughter, who talked with her father a lot about his early life, we can get inside Joe's head much more than one normally could.  So maybe we will; I hope so too.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10917
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2015, 11:51:11 AM »
And HALCYON, doesn't your comment that Lena could have been working for the British: the film was the thing, not the message, remind you of Pocock, building shells for both Washington and it's competitors? The boat was the thing.
JoanK, you knew I'd rise to that bait.  It's an interesting comparison.  For both of them, their craft was the most important thing, but there is a huge moral or ideological difference between them.

Aside from the fact that you couldn't make a living making boats for one team, there is no big difference among the teams--they're all good, maybe some more snobbish than others--and you root for one for personal reasons.

I agree with Halcyon that Leni would have made films for anyone.  But she's making films that try to change men's minds, and persuade them of an ideology that was pure evil, and doing a good job of it.  The worst was yet to come, but just looking at Triumph of the Will, you can see what's wrong with it.  Either she believed, or she was totally irresponsible.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10917
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #83 on: January 11, 2015, 11:58:20 AM »
Ella, thank you for that link to Triumph of the Will.  I have a lot to say about it, but not until I watch the last half hour.  I'm watching in chunks--can't take too much Sieg Heil at once.

serenesheila

  • Posts: 494
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2015, 12:53:03 PM »
I know nothing qbout competitive rowing.  I have only read one chapter of this book, but I am hooked!  The writing is wonderful. 

I find it difficult to understand how Joe's father could turn him put at age 10!  They seem to have had a close relationship, until the father remarried.  I know that none of my own children could have survived, out in the world at age 10!  Why did Joe's teacher go along with the plan pf Joe's father?

























JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2015, 03:02:27 PM »
SHIELA: WELCOME. Yes, I find it fascinating too.

ELLA: GREAT LINK

PAT: I love to argue with you, sis. Yes, there are different moral implications making propaganda for everyone and making boats for everyone. But isn't the point that craftsmanship operates by its own set of morals -- morals about high levels of craft -- independent of other moral codes. We KNOW that Potock couldn't have been guilty of selling inferior boats to Washington's competitors, it would violate the craftperson's ethic. We DON'T know what he would do if asked to supply boats to the Nazi's. That would require a different ethical standard, which we haven't seen tested.


JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2015, 03:30:50 PM »
BEELAMARIE: I'm sorry you're bored. We're now into the races, and we know how it ends. But there is plenty gong on in the lives of the participants to keep us interested, if we aren't interested in the rowing (which I am).

HYSTERIA "I want to see how everything unfolds. Now!"

I agree. I'm often reminded of the old prayer "Lord, I want more patience and I want it NOW."

I agree with you in wanting to slap Thula! Does hearing about her parents treatment of their grandchildren give more insight into her? They knew the family was struggling, ad had plenty of money. But the only help they gave was to have the children over once a week for a bowl of oatmeal. With parents like that, no wonder Thula didn't know how to be a parent.

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #87 on: January 11, 2015, 04:23:01 PM »
Welcome Sheila!  I don't think any of us know competitive rowing - or even rowing!!!  From what our author tells us it is very hard work, uses all your muscles.  Glad you are joining us.

PATH - I have just started watching TRIUMPH OF THE WILL, in one large chunk, have many more to go, but what I saw was lovely.  An airplane flyling over the city of Nuremberg; I don't imagine that airplanes were all that familiar to people in the early 30's, or am I mistaken???  And Hitler smiling, very pleased with it all and why shouldn't he be.   The citizens were all in love with him, I think, see the smiles and waves and adoration of the crowd.  Very healthy looking folk despite the depression of recent years.

The Versailles treaty, possibly, was the impetus for WWII.  The debts that Germany were burdened with was a bit much.  I know my husband, who fought  in WWII in the Pacific, could not understand the generosity of the US toward Japan after the war.   We practically rebuilt the country that had killed so many of our soldiers and sailors; however, on the other hand, we turned an enemy into an ally and found peace with one another. 

I think we should put that film - Triumph of the Will - in the heading so we can read it at our leisure.

Would it be safe to say that Hitler was Germany's FDR?   He got people working again, giving them jobs, supporting their families, building up hopes for the future. 


Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #88 on: January 11, 2015, 05:36:53 PM »
Long live Germany! The future belongs to us! Adolph Hitler, 1934.

What an amazing film. Of course, at the time it must have seemed like Germany's New Deal. The film is mesmerizing. With hindsight it seems very grim and ominous. Hitler seems so confident. It seems strange to think that the men who will defeat him are now in training to win a boat race.

But, what a dream that madman had.

pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #89 on: January 11, 2015, 06:55:45 PM »
Quote
Would it be safe to say that Hitler was Germany's FDR?   He got people working again, giving them jobs, supporting their families, building up hopes for the future. 

Oh Ella, I can' resist -- what I remember from age 10:  One of my aunts, knocking at our door, and saying to my mother and another aunt,  "Oh girls.  I just heard the news.  Hitler isn't dead yet because Roosevelt looked all over hell and couldn't find him."  I guess not everybody liked FDR, but we should probably watch what we say in front of the little ones.

I haven't watched much of Triumph of Will yet, and have seen only a little of LR's Festival of Nations (1936).  In the latter especially LR appears to have been quite experimental with her photography.  I'm not ready to get into the moral discussion yet, but certainly feel that Pocock chose the more difficult path, and one that did not let him compromise his beliefs.

Still reading Section Two.  What a surprise to find out that Harry and Thula had moved to 39th ST and Bagley.  My daughter lives on that street, between 38th and 39th.  When I first visited there over 25 years ago there was a little Mom/Pop coffee-bakery on the corner called The Durn Good.  It has moved on a few blocks and now Erwin's (similar to its predecessor) has moved in. My SIL bought the house before they were married.  IT was built in 1907 and I assume the neighborhod (Wallingford) was built around that time.  THe houses are small and close together.  People wanting more room now build UP. (My grands went to Fred's school -- Roosevelt.)

Up to 6 minutes on the rowing machine.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10917
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2015, 07:45:56 PM »
6 minutes!  Yay.  Keep up the good work.

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2015, 07:48:05 PM »
We've got connections.  Pedlin's daughter lives in Seattle and Halcyon's son goes to the U of Dub - what fun.  HALCYON - has your son ever seen the famous shell in the Shell House on the campus?  Do they keep it looking nice, polished, etc. in honor of Pocock and the Boys of 1936?  

I think you said everyone on campus is talking about the book.   Wouldn't the boys be pleased?

PEDLIN, are you losing weight or  just feeling strong and healthy on your rowing machine?   So your family were Republicans looking for FDR and Hitler (shame on all of us for putting those names side by side) all over hell and back.  And you remember that from age 10, remarkable!

Can we pretend not to remember the horror that Hitler's Germany was to become while watching the film?  Will try to watch more, but am not used to sitting in front of a little screen to watch a movie.  I skimmed the Internet and there are all kinds of critiques on the film, inclulding one by Roger Ebert.

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #92 on: January 12, 2015, 09:43:47 AM »
I've been thinking about Question 4 in the heading and all I can think of is  rowing is definitely an outside sport; you cannot put a river or a lake in a stadium.  Perhaps like golf today? 

Trivia question, when was the first stadium built in the USA?  Of course, all easterners will say over here and westerners say the opposite.   Well, we all must check the Internet.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10917
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #93 on: January 12, 2015, 09:51:17 AM »
Can we pretend not to remember the horror that Hitler's Germany was to become while watching the film?
That's not too easy to do, because it's almost all foreshadowed in the film.  I've finished it now, and will write up my impressions.

Halcyon

  • Posts: 1161
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #94 on: January 12, 2015, 10:56:52 AM »
PAT   Either she believed, or she was totally irresponsible.

I think it was a little more complicated.  We don't know much about her upbringing or belief system.  It is amazing how Hitler brought influenced all the people he did.  Do you think they all believed or did fear make believers out of them.

As far as Thula's parents, I wonder why she even agreed to her children visiting their grandparents weekly?  I think I would have had more pride but that's not always a good thing.

Could someone tell me how to use the icons above to make italics, bold letters etc?  Thank you.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4076
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #95 on: January 12, 2015, 11:19:16 AM »
Oh JoanK,  I would not use the word bored to describe this section, it just seemed to be filled with too much of boats, trees and travel that I did not find interesting.  Like Joe, I did not give up, and found parts more interesting toward the end.

I am not at all shocked at Thula rejecting Joe, and shutting the door in his face.  There just is no excuse for such a hateful, hurtful human being, regardless of how her children were treated.  I know many grandparents today who do not want to spend "their" time with grandkids at all, so having the kids once a week, and giving them a bowl of oatmeal may seem harsh to some, but then they did at least interact with them. 

I just feel so bad for Joe.  I share Joyce's feelings:

As they drove away from the house on Bagley that afternoon, Joyce simmered.  Over the years she had been slowly learning more about Joe's parents and what exactly had happened back in Sequim and before that, at the Gold and Ruby mine.   She'd learned about his mother's death and the long, lonely train ride to Pennsylvania.  And stitching it all together, she could not understand how Thula could have been so cold to a motherless child, nor how Joe's father could have been so impassive in the face of it all.  She could not understand, either, why Joe seemed to show so little anger about it all, why he continued to try to ingratiate himself with the two of them, as if none of it had ever happened.  Finally, as Joe pulled over to the curb to drop her off at the judge's home, Joyce erupted.

She demanded to know why Joe let his parents treat him as they did.  Why did he go on pretending that they hadn't done him any harm?  What kind of woman would leave a boy in the world?  What kind of father would let her do that?  Why didn't he ever get angry at them?  Why didn't he just demand that they let him see his half siblings?  She was nearly sobbing by the time she finished.

She glanced across the seat at Joe, and saw at once, through a blur of tears, that his eyes were full of hurt too.  But his jaw was set, and he stared ahead over the steering wheel rather than turning to look at her.

"You don't understand," he murmured.  "They didn't have any choice.  There were just too many mouths to fee."

Joyce pondered for a moment, then said, "I just don't understand why you don't get angry."

Joe continued to stare ahead through the windshield.  "It takes energy to get angry.  It eats you up inside.  I can't waste my energy like that and expect to get ahead.  Whey they left, it took everything I had in me just to survive.  Now I have to stay focused.  I've just gotta take care of myself."

Ughhh...this is so heart wrenching, and then to find out, his family move to a small but respectable house at Thirty-Ninth and Bagley, not far from the bakery and not far from the north end of Lake Union where Joe rowed nearly every afternoon.

Does Joe's father even know he is rowing for the university?  Do you suppose his father ever goes down and watches the boys rowing? 

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4076
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #96 on: January 12, 2015, 11:34:24 AM »
pedln, How exciting to know your daughter lives on that street, between 38th and 39th.  It's fun when we have someone that can give us a more personal feel to the places we hear of in our books.  

6 minutes rowing...woo woo!  Good for you!  My treadmill and bicycle are still collecting dust into this New Year!

Halcyon,  When you want to use the icons above, first you must highlight the section in your post first, then go up and click which icon you want that text to change to.  You can bold, italicize and even change color to the same text, just be sure to keep it highlighted, and do one click at a time.  Practice a few times, and have fun!  My biggest challenge was learning to insert pictures.  You can attempt that once you mastered the easier tasks.  Good luck!

PatH.,
Quote
Leni would have made films for anyone.  But she's making films that try to change men's minds, and persuade them of an ideology that was pure evil, and doing a good job of it.

This part gave me chills because it relates to what is happening today with Paris. The Charlie Hebdo is a publication that has always courted controversy with satirical attacks on political and religious leaders.   
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/paris-magazine-attack/charlie-hebdo-shooting-12-killed-muhammad-cartoons-magazine-paris-n281266

It makes me ask myself, when do movies, reporters, magazines, even comedians go too far?  I was watching the Golden Globes last night, and they were making more fun of the movie that had to be banned due to threats from North Korea, because they felt the satirical comedy was offensive to their leader, Kim Jong-un.   I ask myself, when does one go too far?  When does one cross the line using The First Amendment of freedom of speech, and it become offensive and irresponsible, and puts themselves or others in grave danger?   Makes one ponder......
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Halcyon

  • Posts: 1161
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #97 on: January 12, 2015, 12:32:21 PM »
Thank you bellamarie

Above is what happened.  I highlighted then chose an icon.  I must be missing something?  Is there some setting I should change.  Using an IPad and Apple

Haha It works when I post. Thank you!  That was easy.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10917
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #98 on: January 12, 2015, 12:56:52 PM »
ENJOY.

pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #99 on: January 12, 2015, 01:07:04 PM »
Ella, that #4 is  a very intriguing question.  Definitely an outside sport.  Another reason might be that there is more competition for fans' time.  And schools' money.  Would Title 9 had also had an effect?  I've been trying to find out, but really don't know just how to find what I want.  The article below is from something about the Winklevoss twins -- champion rowers, also managed to get 65M from Mark Zuckerberg who they claim stole Facebook from them.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/london-2012-olympics-blog/2012/jul/31/olympics-2012-usa-rowers-winklevoss

From 1920 to 1956, the USA were dominant in the men's eight category, winning every final. They missed in 1960, but came back in 1964 to reclaim gold. For the next 40 years the USA struggled, failing to capture gold until 2004 when Teti started coaching the men's eight. That year they won gold and broke the dry spell. In 2008, still under the direction of Teti, the team won bronze. After that Olympics, Teti left the national team to coach the men's crew at Berkeley, and the USA men's team hit a rough patch.

After the men's eight failed to qualify last summer for London 2012, Teti was brought back to coach the eight, while still maintaining his coaching job at Berkeley, and Vlahos, who has long had Olympic ambitions, asked to try out. Teti agreed. The day the boat was announced, the chosen rowers put their heads together and decided Vlahos, 23, would be their coxswain. It's a choice, Teti said, that he's never put in his rowers' hands before.

In the men's eight, Vlahos is the most junior in terms of age and experience, but it's clear he's got the stuff to win. In late May, with one last shot at qualifying for the Olympics, the team, with Vlahos at the helm, placed first, earned their spot and turned their focus to Olympic gold.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4076
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #100 on: January 12, 2015, 01:44:40 PM »
WTG Halcyon!   ;)
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #101 on: January 12, 2015, 04:20:53 PM »
"Ella, that #4 is  a very intriguing question"

Yes, it's hard to imagine rowing being as popular as baseball or football.

Of course, it may be that people were exaggerating the size of the crowds and the excitement. After all, Pedlin's article above calls the Winklevoss twins famous, and though I'm a sports junkie, I've never heard of them. Have any of you?

I think it was the author who said it's a poor spectator sport. I agree. I'm a true sports junkie (watching, not playing). If someone plays it, I'll watch. But I've never gotten into rowing. Perhaps its the very fact that this book talks about: the rowers become one entity not individuals. And in sports we glorify the individual. Perhaps it's because we, as non-experts, can't really see or understand the difference between good and poor performance. They all look alike, and it's a mystery why one boat winds up ahead.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4076
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #102 on: January 12, 2015, 06:30:59 PM »
Question #2,  I have competed in volleyball in high school.  One thing I can say it compares to with rowing, is it takes a team effort to achieve success.  Each person has their job to do, but it must be done as a team.  One single player can not bring about the victory. 

I've never really been interested in being a spectator of rowing or wrestling.  Neither of these sports get much attention here in my hometown.  I have always regarded rowing with the elite schools in the east, such as Harvard and Yale.  I had never known Washington to have been such a contender, until reading this book.  I feel rowing is like yachting, a rich college/men's sport. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #103 on: January 12, 2015, 06:42:08 PM »
Both Berkeley and U-Dub still have men's and women's crew as a school sport.  Men's schedules go from Oct. thru May, even a summer UK race for Washington.  With the exception of a few races in the East -- Princeton and Harvard, their other races are on the West Coast.

This article about Stan Pocock, George's son popped up while I was browsing.  Some things do last.

Stan

hysteria2

  • Posts: 592
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #104 on: January 13, 2015, 01:10:48 AM »
I have to confess that up until now my exposure to competitive sports has been from the couch or stadium seat. (I am now getting physically active by working out on my treadmill and my "rowing" machine, but this is very recent.) I typically watch professional football and baseball, and until I started reading this book I felt that the players, especially football players, earned every penny of their gazillion dollar salaries because of the awful weather they have to play in, not to mention the risk of injury. However, Joe and his crew faced even more adversity. They rowed in the cold, in the heat, in storms (to the extent water was both inside and outside of the boat), and in wind. Sure, football players face the cold and the heat, but they are on land. They are not nearly as vulnerable as competitive rowers are. It is a shame that rowing is not given as much publicity as our "main" sports. Being the cynical person I am, I attribute the lack of support to money. In other words, competitive rowing does not sell like football, basketball and baseball do. Even soccer has a hard time in the US, although it's getting better. The rest of the world goes absolutely nuts over soccer, and we seem to barely notice it. (However, I did go to a qualifying game for World Cup in Denver last March. It was snowing so hard you could hardly see the field. The players had to use an orange ball. The teams wouldn't even consider postponing the game, and fans stood throughout the entire game. There is no sitting in soccer! Soccer fans are unique. The enthusiasm for the game in spite of the snow was incredible. Sorry for the digression.) Rowing is underpublicized to the point I had to do a Google search to see if it was still a collegiate sport. (It is.) I am now going to be checking the sports channels to see if there are any rowing events televised. I surely hope I will find some!
If only I could be the person my dog thinks I am!

Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #105 on: January 13, 2015, 11:06:10 AM »
What a great sport, as everyone has noticed. I'm struck by how vividly it comes out in the detail. As hysteria has just pointed out.

Endless hours in training. 'They rowed through cutting wind, bitter sleet, and occasional snow, well into the dark of night every evening.' (84)

The movements of each rower are so intimately intertwined, so precisely synchronized with the movements of all the others....' (89)

'So every race is a balancing act, a series of delicate and deliberate adjustments of power on one hand and stroke rate on the other.' (94)

There are so many other curious details on the art and technique of rowing. And along with gold medals there are some very unusual rewards:


Joe found a purpose in the life of the shell house. 'The rituals  of rowing, the specialized language of the sport...the brutal afternoon workouts left him eshausted and sore but feeling cleansed, as if someone had scrubbed out his soul with a stiff wire brush.' (135)

Earlier, we heard coach Tom Bolles talk 'of near mystical moments on the water - momensts of pride, elation, and deep affection for one's fellow oarsmen, moments they would remember, cherish, and recount to their grandchildren when they were old men. Moments, even, that would bring them nearer to God.' (41)

And the shell builder, George Pocock talked of 'those almost mystical bonds of trust and affection, that might lift a crew above the ordinary sphere, transport it to a place where nine boys somehow became one thing, a thing that was so in tune with the water and the earth and the sky above that, as they rowed, effort  was replaced by ecstasy. It was a rare thing, a sacred thing, a thing devoutly to be hoped for.' (48)

Will any other sport give you that much?

pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #106 on: January 13, 2015, 11:20:16 AM »
The History of Collegiate Rowing  by Daniella Garran, published 12/2012, about 6 months before Boys in the Boat.

Amazon description
Quote
The spirit of college athletic competition is captured in this history of collegiate rowing in America. Chart the rise in the popularity of rowing from the first collegiate crew founded at Yale University in 1843 to the development of the over 300 programs nationwide today. Relive the prominent races and regattas that various college crews took part in, including the Head of the Charles, the Eastern Sprints, and the Olympics. Interviews with past and present coaches and rowers, as well as 142 beautiful images illustrate the essence of the sport. This nostalgic celebration of the oldest college sport in the country will be a treasured keepsake for all rowers and their families as well as a wonderful resource for historians and sports enthusiasts.


From the review
Quote
However, this is also a serious history of the sport. It is written in an engaging, anecdotal style with extensive coverage of Ivy League and Northeastern racing, the West Coast powers, the rest of the country, the rise of women's and lightweight crews, the coaches and the great national and international competitions.

Complementing the pictures and history is a collection of ephemera: poems, fight songs, sketches, programs that convey the spirit of rowing. There is also detailed factual material on the development of programs in various colleges and universities, and winners of major races.

Now, can anyone find it in their library?

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #107 on: January 13, 2015, 11:40:39 AM »
HYSTERIA, I confess, too; I have never been in a sport, unless you call fishing a sport as JOANK suggests.  Loved that.  We had a wonderful new YMCA where I lived before moving into a retiring community, with step-down units and I did exercising at the Y for a number of years.

We are all in admiration of you and your rowing machine - merrily we row along, row along, row along..........

PEDIN - this is from the article you posted:  "But rowing in the US does not compare in popularity to basketball, track, or swimming. It remains a sport of the empire and, in the US, of the elite.

Still the elite in the USA - some things change, others stay the same.

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #108 on: January 13, 2015, 11:53:13 AM »
Can't believe it, JONATHAN.   Is that our author telling of the "ecstasy"  - the soul cleansing - and even bringing the crew nearer to GOD?     Would those statements embarass our young men? 

Every time I hear of the hymn NEARER MY GOD TO THEE I think of the Titanic and the men standing on the deck singing that song, waiting to drown.   

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4076
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #109 on: January 13, 2015, 12:18:52 PM »
Yes, Jonathan, I do believe we can clearly see that rowing brings the mind, body, soul, and shall we say spirit, closer to the Heavens, to the divinity of God.  I love how Joe can find his peace with rowing.  After a childhood of abandonment, loss, and hurt, something larger than life is the only hope for him, in his journey into his adulthood.  I love how Joyce is a constant in his life.  She hurts for him, she wants him to achieve all his goals and dreams in life.  

As Joe lays dying, telling his story to DJB, I get the sense he does in fact achieve all he dreamed of.  I feel the sense of peacefulness, through the author's writing, and Joe's words.

Ella,  
Quote
"But rowing in the US does not compare in popularity to basketball, track, or swimming. It remains a sport of the empire and, in the US, of the elite.

As I suspected, rowing has and always will be for those with status and money.  That is probably why the average person has little interest.  I think as spectators or fans, we have to believe while watching a sport it is something either we, or our child can aspire and achieve.  The average person can not afford this luxury sport/college.  I am amazed at how Joe, was not only able to put himself through college, but maintained the stamina to continue with the rowing, with it's demands on his mind and body.  I sense back in the depression, more people were determined to rise above their standards of living, today there seems to be more of an entitlement attitude.  



“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #110 on: January 13, 2015, 03:51:44 PM »
JONATHAN: again, a good summary.

"nine boys somehow became one thing, a thing that was so in tune with the water and the earth and the sky above that, as they rowed, effort  was replaced by ecstasy. It was a rare thing, a sacred thing, a thing devoutly to be hoped for."

And ELLA: " the "ecstasy"  - the soul cleansing - and even bringing the crew nearer to GOD?"

This is the thing that fascinates me, this mystical element in rowing that I have seen in other descriptions of it as well (in fact, whenever I've seen rowing discussed). What is going on? Is it found in other sports, too? I don't remember seeing it talked about in other sports. Are elite rowers more articulate, or is it unique to rowing?

BELLAMARIE: " After a childhood of abandonment, loss, and hurt, something larger than life is the only hope for him, in his journey into his adulthood."

That's a very interesting comment. He has been told all his life that he doesn't belong: suddenly he is part of something larger than himself.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #111 on: January 13, 2015, 03:59:20 PM »
HYSTERIA: I'm glad to find another "couch athlete." You inspire me with your rowing. (I need a lot of inspiring!)

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #112 on: January 14, 2015, 10:44:51 AM »
What a place for our author to insert the story of the Goebbels family!  Here we are so happy for Joe and Joyce as they dance, smiling, laughing, giddy with joy.  And then Joseph Goebbels, what a monster, and I hope his wife is in some kind of hell for killing her own sweet children.  I skimmed the Internet to find a bit about Goebbels' childhood, some answer to how such a monster could have evolved:

"(Joseph) Goebbels had been rejected for military service during World War I because of a crippled foot - the result of contracting polio as a child - and a sense of physical inadequacy tormented him for the rest of his life, reinforced by resentment of the reactions aroused by his diminutive frame, black hair and intellectual background. Bitterly conscious of his deformity and fearful of being regarded as a "bourgeois intellectual," Goebbels overcompensated for his lack of the physical virtues of the strong, healthy, blond, Nordic type by his ideological rectitude and radicalism once he joined the NSDAP in 1922.

The hostility to the intellect of the "little doctor," his contempt for the human race in general and the Jews in particular, and his complete cynicism were an expression of his own intellectual self-hatred and inferiority complexes, his overwhelming need to destroy everything sacred and ignite the same feelings of rage, despair and hatred in his listeners " - -  http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/goebbels.html 


What do you know of this family who idolized Hitler and devoted their lives to his ideals?

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10917
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #113 on: January 14, 2015, 12:28:56 PM »
This is the thing that fascinates me, this mystical element in rowing that I have seen in other descriptions of it as well (in fact, whenever I've seen rowing discussed). What is going on? Is it found in other sports, too? I don't remember seeing it talked about in other sports. Are elite rowers more articulate, or is it unique to rowing?

After reading Brown's description of how a rowing team has to work, I can definitely understand the mystical element.  Most teams have to cooperate, interact, know what their teammates are going to do and fit in with it, but rowing takes it one step farther.  Everyone has to be exactly on the same page every second.  You have to meld together into a composite whole, thinking in tandem, moving in tandem, with the slightest glitch messing up everyone.  This has got to have an effect.  Either you develop a group sympathy or you lose.  Added to this is the feeling of extreme physical effort while surrounded by nature's elements; I can get a good feeling just from making an effort against the water while swimming.

JoanK asks if this feeling is found in other sports.  My only experience in team sports is rifle shooting, and if you wanted to pick a polar opposite to rowing, this would probably be it.  You aren't interacting with your teammates in a match, you are concentrating so much on what you are doing that you mostly don't even hear the shots around you (and we didn't use hearing protection back then).  We mostly didn't even see our opponents, because we didn't have much money for travel, so most matches were done long-distance, with the targets certified and exchanged by mail afterward.  We didn't even know who won until later.  And if you messed up it might not matter, because a team of ten got to use the best five targets.

Do you get a team spirit from this sort of thing?  Yes.  We had considerable team spirit and feeling of solidarity, though it certainly didn't rise to mysticism.  And every time I have had a conversation with someone who has been on a rifle team, they have said the same thing that I felt, that it was an extraordinarily positive experience.  (And they like to talk about it, as you can see by my long-windedness.)

serenesheila

  • Posts: 494
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #114 on: January 14, 2015, 01:11:41 PM »
Will someone please tell me what a foot stretcher is?  Thanks, Sheila

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #115 on: January 14, 2015, 03:18:19 PM »
Shiela: thanks for asking that question. I'ts defined as an adjustable plate to which shoes are typically attached.

http://www.rivercitycrew.com/rowing_definitions_&_terminology/

That doesn't really explain how it's used. I realize I'm confused.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #116 on: January 14, 2015, 03:26:56 PM »
I thought I understood what the rowers were doing until SHIELA'S question made it clear that I didn't. Here's a video that makes it clear. Note her feet in the "foot stretchers".

http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/technique-videos

This machine is for indoor rowing, but in the boat, it's presumably exactly the same thing, just with a boat around you.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #117 on: January 14, 2015, 03:36:15 PM »
Don't forget, we start Part three tomorrow.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10917
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #118 on: January 14, 2015, 05:34:59 PM »
Thanks for those links, Joan; they're remarkably informative, especially the video.  Especially, I was having trouble visualizing the way you slide back and forth in the track, and now it's clear.

Unfortunately, they suggest that one of my worries which keeps me from trying rowing is true.  Although most of my large joints are reasonable, my knees are hugely arthritic.  I can't do stationary bikes, not even recumbent ones, and when I swim I have to kick gently, or my knees get in trouble.  (I make up for it by also walking in the water to work the leg muscles more.)

Hysteria and pedln, what's the rowing like for the knees?  Do you think I could get away with it?

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10917
Re: Boys in the Boat, The~ January Book Club Online
« Reply #119 on: January 14, 2015, 08:30:08 PM »
Here's my ridiculously wordy review of Triumph of the Will.  Only read it if it amuses you.


 Leni Riefenstahl has always fascinated me the way a cobra is supposed to affect small birds.  I see what’s wrong with her, but can’t turn away.

Triumph of the Will is a masterpiece of propaganda, and I feel its power, but I’m not caught, I have a reaction of horror.  You can see the whole future here.  It starts off softly, with the beautiful rooftops of Nuremberg,  Hitler smiling at the masses, the adoring looks of women giving him flowers.  There is the glorification of physical prowess: the youths wrestling and playing games.  Then the pulling together of the various cultures of Germany, which hasn’t been a united country for even a century:  good Aryan faces answering “where are you from?”—“I’m from Friesland”, “I’m from Bavaria”, “I’m from the Danube”, etc, but we’re all part of the whole—“Ein Volk, ein Land”.  (One people, one country)

Militarism pushes in with the workers handling their spades like rifles, and you start to see fanaticism and obedience.  Look at the young drummer boys, at about 42 minutes, particularly one very young one who seems totally obsessed.  We first see the goosestep about half way through, done by the SA or SS (I’m not sure which; they were both onstage).  It reappears later.  There are wonderful images—a forest of Nazi flags dimly seen marching through the dusk toward a gleaming column which turns out to be the tall podium from which Hitler is about to give a speech, surmounted by a large gleaming eagle.

Of course there is an infinity of political speeches, mostly mercifully short.  Hitler was supposed to be able to mesmerize audiences with his charismatic speaking presence, but I don’t see it.

The last part almost totally shows military might, more and more scenes of marching troops.  The goosestep reappears, becoming more extreme.  It ends with Hitler’s final speech, followed by a large illuminated circle containing the swastika, swelling to fill the screen, then obscured by a rising file of marching troops.  Brr.

Music is used very effectively.  I didn’t recognize much, except for a few whiffs of Wagner, and, in the scene where they are lowering flags to the ground in tribute, the military funeral song “Ich hatt’ einen Kameraden” (I had a comerade).

There are predictions of the future throughout, but here are two bits from Hitler’s final speech:

Quote
Even when our party only consisted of seven men, it proclaimed two principles.  First, it wanted to be a party with a world view.  And second, it wanted sole power in Germany, without compromise.

Quote
The German people are happy in the knowledge that the divisions of the past have been replaced by a high standard leading the nation.  We carry the best blood and we know this.   We have resolved to keep the leadership of the nation, and never give it up!

Antisemitism isn’t emphasized, but the swastika had already been a symbol for it for some years.  http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/576371/swastika

It’s interesting to see that a lot of the swastikas are still horizontal.  They are still in transition from symbolizing the footprints of the Buddha to the evil symbol they became.