Author Topic: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28  (Read 55186 times)

ginny

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #160 on: February 19, 2015, 07:18:08 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

February  Book Club Online:

The Lady of Shalott
by Alfred Lord Tennyson (1809-1892 )



The Lady of Shalott by Howard Pyle for the first edition


Our Readers  Respond to the Question, What's This Poem About in One Word:
 
 



---shattering of self-delusions and its possible consequences (Frybabe)

--- disenchantment (Halcyon)

---romantic (nlhome)

---reflection/  reflective: Andrea (ALF)

---fear (ginny)

---change (Barb)

---whodunit? (Jonathan)

---isolation (Pat H.)




The Lady of  Shalott by John William Waterhouse, (1881)
DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:


February 9-28


Interesting Links: :

~ Enjoy this haunting rendition of the poem in  ballad form  by Loreen McKenna with many beautiful illustrations

~A comparison of editions:  1833 and 1842 by The Camelot Project at the University of Rochester

~ Elaine of Astolat links

Elaine of Astolat is the maiden who dies of unrequited love for Lancelot and floats in a barge to Camelot with a letter for Lancelot clutched in her lifeless hand. She appears in Malory and in Tennyson's idyll of "Lancelot and Elaine." The figure of Elaine in the barge became one of the most popular Victorian images.

~ SC Edu Library Online Text

~ A wonderful page on the Lady by a pathologist with a very clever way of comparing the editions.

~The Winged Horse: Tennyson, submitted by Jonathan and Frybabe.

~Schmoop: A discussion of the rhyme scheme and meter of the Lady




Discussion Leader: ginny


And there are knights in shining armor, too!! How up ARE you on your knights and armor? Take This delightful quiz from the Metropolitan Museum of Art and enjoy finding out!


ginny

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #161 on: February 19, 2015, 07:20:25 PM »
I wish I had a copy of From Ritual to Romance, it sounds just the thing! Thank you for making that parallel, to Greek drama, Pat!

Oh and we're talking about The Waste Land, I absolutely love Eliot, so nice to be talking (such as I am) about poetry again. I really think we should have a Lady Day and come as bards and speak in rhyme. I think we can do it, what about Sunday? Since I think in sing song anyway, it shouldn't be hard.

And since Poe seems jealous enough to begrudge people enjoying trying to figure out what on earth The Lady is about, maybe we should have a Poe day, too. I mean really, quoth the raven and all that. On the pallid bust of Pallas just above my chamber door (that might not be accurate but I'm not looking it up). I had seen that quote in another place and marveled at it.

He sounds like Frost, "a poem should not mean, but be."

Yeah well if you're not on the same wave length as the poet apparently is, it's fun to try to figure out what the heck he is  saying in case it has some relevance to anything.  hahahaa Because often it IS poetry you call to mind for some reason in stressful times.

I was also surprised to find in my reading that Casey at the Bat is a ballad, anybody but me remember that one? There used to be an anthology of Modern (years ago) American poetry which contained that one, I used to love it "That ain't my style,"  said  Casey and the umpire said "Strike two!" Or something like that.  I used to love it: the Mudville 9.

How about the Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald? I wonder if that's a poem as well as a ballad,  it's quite haunting but I think it's because of the music, so which came first?  Moving presentation here: The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald

I am agog to see what Jonathan finds in his new book!!

Thank you for that link, Halcyon.  It's still loading! It's been loading for a long time and I think that I have a password to that site somewhere but have forgotten it. Hopefully it will load, it says it's loading a preview.

Oh now but Andrea has thrown down the gauntlet, but she's always been fearless:

Hahaha Ginny - ah that is the question- is the Lady better off or not for following her dream (heart?)

In my opinion we all are.  Many of us are not made to take a middle of the road stance. That's wishy -washy behavior. If you take your stand in the middle of the road, you will be run over!  Go for it, fair damsel. Is death worse than the isolated existence she has encountered?

I've never been much of a dreamer but a big believer in stepping out.


And Halcyon and Andrea have asked the two searing questions of the day:

Do you think her dream was to get to Camelot or to get Lancelot? (Halcyon)


What was it that the Lady really wanted? Did she get it? Was she better off or not when she did?


And then ANDREA: Is death worse than the isolated existence she has encountered?


Anybody brave enough to tackle that one?

I'm going to go way out on a limb here (but what's a book discussion FOR except to enjoy talking about the ideas) and try Halcyon's  first because Andrea's is explosive and I want to think about it, and I've been thinking about the first one a long time.

As to what did she really want? Camelot or  Lancelot, I'm going to say both and none. Not really. That's why she approached it as she did.

I'm going to say the grass looked greener for a minute there, symbolic on the hill in the case of Camelot with so many happy comings and goings and shining and jingling and possibly exciting "happily ever after" dreams with Lancelot (and she's no different from any other fan of any movie star)...So I'm going to say  that in my opinion, which is decidedly limited, I think she was better off staying in her tower, (sorry) doing useful work which was creative and artistic, in which she was happy for a time, singing to herself and  making up excuses (the curse) for not venturing out into a world she obviously did not understand or...fit in? She fit in where she was. She was enjoying her limited world, more  than how she ended up, in many ways.

The grass is not always greener.  Does anybody agree with me on this one point, or not? Makes no difference, if you do or not,  you're entitled to whatever you think. OR what in your opinion, DID she really want? WAS she better off when she tried to get it, as Andrea says?

I may have to put these answers in the heading, too.

And then, maybe if we're brave enough to tackle that gentle one, maybe we can try  Andrea's crusher.

A bridle bell for your thoughts. :)



nlhome

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #162 on: February 19, 2015, 07:35:33 PM »
I always did like Poe.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #163 on: February 19, 2015, 08:33:04 PM »
Hmm do you think he was jealous or simply giving his viewpoint that would be from a poet's point of view just as most of us wanting to be more than charmed attempt to understand a poem from a the point of view of someone critiquing a work -  

As to Alf's lock up or death conundrum - I cannot imagine when most of us step out to live we see the risk of death and yet, we all die one way or another don't we.

We probably all have our Camelot - so many books available about living your dream and how to achieve your dream - it is when you are not sure - where is your Camelot, as in not owning a shiny big dream that today you feel out of step - it appears our lady is before her time and would do well with lots of guidance, workshops, TEDs in the twenty-first century.

All this cold weather - nothing like up north but for us cold - kept me indoors - Spring has sprung around here and I need to get going or the yard takes over - I am behind on so much I'll need a wall to keep my yard from the sight of anyone, dead or alive passing by in boat or otherwise.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #164 on: February 20, 2015, 06:43:39 AM »
It seems to me the Lady's reaction to seeing Lancelot in the mirror was an automatic, startled reaction to something totally beyond her previous experience. She seemed to be happy up until she saw Lancelot. He was the catalyst. Once she turned away from the mirror whether she stayed or went, her fate was sealed, was it not? It wasn't her leaving that activated the curse; it was looking directly at the real world. So why not take a risk and try for the prize? What did she have to lose at that point. Once her eyes were opened to other (or outside) possibilities, there really was no turning back. Knowledge has power. Maybe what is important is not her destination, but that she took the risk. In this case, it destroyed her. She made it to Camelot, but she never knew it.

Just think of what this world would be like if no one looked or went "outside the box". No personal advancement, no gains to civilization as a whole.

Another thought, maybe Halcyon and Barb have a point about religious significance. My one word there would be Temptation. Look what temptation did to Adam and Eve, et.al. They took a risk and got thrown out of the Garden of Eden.

Jonathan

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #165 on: February 20, 2015, 11:42:55 AM »
Poe may have been right. It takes a poet to recognize another. So, if it's all phantasy anything is possible. (But I'm left with the suspicion that Tennyson's pipe had something to do with it. He was never without it when he was 'working'.)

'I've never been much of a dreamer but a big believer in stepping out.'
  Ginny also suggested in an earlier post that the poem might be a poetic description of the 'plight of the restricted Victorian woman.'

Stepping out. Those words might have come right out of the Lady's mouth. She's not dead at all. She only looks lifeless. She's off to Camelot. And this is her way of making a grand entrance. Perhaps there is a religious element. Perhaps she comes out of her 'trance' or 'fantasy' singing Amazing Grace.

I'm losing sleep over this one. The new biography To Strive, To Seek, to Find, is very good. He has Tennyson very much involved in womens' liberation. Especially in The Princess. Has any one read it? Or should one say experienced it, as Frost would suggest?

PatH

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #166 on: February 20, 2015, 06:47:28 PM »
I agree, the "plight of the restricted Victorian woman" is a powerful strand of this multifaceted poem, maybe part of why it became so popular.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #167 on: February 22, 2015, 07:54:18 PM »
 ;) looks like everyone took you very seriously Ginny when you asked for the bridle bell of our thoughts since a bridle is used to restrain and control the bell which when swinging represents the extremes of good and evil with the hollow the mouth of the preacher and the clapper his tongue - I love it...  8) - Everyone must have been busy this weekend or holding their clapper in check.

I did get to work in the garden while the temps were still high - another norther moved in here today but thank goodness I did get the fallen branches cut and bundled and after finally having to order Dove dishwashing soap on line since none of the grocery stores stock it anylonger it arrived and I attempted to spray some of the moss that is taking over my Live Oak trees - problem I could only get the hose spray to reach the lower limbs but at least those are done and the moss should start dropping off - Spring is coming folks - here everything is in bloom - the Redbud trees, the Cherry Trees both pink and white, the Jasmin that is thickly draped over so many high fences, and daffodils of all kinds - the deer do not eat daffodils and even the Mountain Laurel is blooming.

Well back to our Lady who passed the Gardenwalls on her way to Camelot. Away from the poem for a couple of days and already I feel the need to review before I share - I'll be back because I smiled Frybabe when I saw your thought that the 'religious'  read could be about Temptation - it is interesting how we all see something in this poem but then that is why a classic poem lasts and lasts isn't it.

Ah yes, Jonathan - Poe is not all dark and scary - we do have these quotes, "Poetry is the rhythmical creation of beauty in words." And another - "That pleasure which is at once the most pure, the most elevating and the most intense, is derived, I maintain, from the contemplation of the beautiful." And I have to share this one "I wish I could write as mysterious as a cat."

Not to be outdone Tennyson gave us some wallops with these words, "Dreams are true while they last, and do we not live in dreams?" and this wonder - "Self-reverence, self-knowledge, self-control; these three alone lead one to sovereign power." Wow to contemplate on Self-reverence could be a daily exploration and prayer for this season of Lent.

Well I did want to pop in but I am 10 minutes away from my one and only night that is none stop TV on our local PBS - Lent or not - I will use Sunday as my excuse when dietary restrictions are usually broken but no time left to cook something before the wonders start so I will feast on grapes, cheese and crackers and a glass of Cabernet. Till later...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #168 on: February 23, 2015, 09:20:42 AM »
:)

I  was actually giving folks a chance to comment on either of the very tough questions raised.

To be honest, I am still laughing over the state you report of your garden and that it would not be noticed by anybody passing in a boat, living or dead. I have laughed over that bon mot for days. I love that.

Oh man.

Jonathan has raised the purpose of the poem:

The whole purpose of the poem is to get us to Camelot

I don't know why I am personally so resistant to the idea of Camelot. I can see a couple of lines end in "Camelot." What difference would it make where they are going? Does it make a difference?

If the main theme is LIVE! Whatever the cost, get out there and try, live, as Andrea seems to think, then what has Camelot got to do with it?

Camelot has been there a long time. She has looked out, but it wasn't Camelot which made her cross the room decisively.

I'll answer the last question, which extrapolates the theme here into 2015, and it's a rough one. Is it better to have loved and lost or never loved at all?

Is she now better off? Is it better for her to have tried?

I used to think so. I really did. Don't you find the things you most regret are the things you chose not to do? Or do you?

But what of John Donne? They also serve who only stand and wait.

Folks, she's not better off. She's dead. She died happy? Maybe, just maybe there was another way. There is more than one way to skin a cat. So here maybe is where people blame Tennyson, calling him anti feminist, the woman wants the bright lights, she sallies forth singing in the cold weather, not too much thought going on here. She's not waiting to be rescued, strike that, why couldn't she wave at him, hello Lancelot, from the window?

If the reapers could hear her singing, so could he, unless his jingling (that was a nice set of metaphors there, Barbara) drowned her out, and that itself would have been a tragedy. More water images.

What is Tennyson saying here?

I love this because you have to think.....

So what DO you all  think?

more....




ginny

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #169 on: February 23, 2015, 09:42:52 AM »
Going back to some of your comments, nlhome, I also used to love Poe.  I read everything of his written. I was most fascinated by his horror of being buried alive, so much so that he had a coffin constructed (so they say) with an escape hatch. In those days, it might actually have happened, heck, in our own last year two people miraculously recovered on a gurney in morgues. It can happen. I know one died shortly thereafter, I am not sure of the other.

And Barbara, you may be right, it may not be jealousy, at all. I thought it was kind of waspish, especially considering Poe's works and people killing themselves to analyze them.

Why wouldn't anybody  want to analyze something?

If a work is supposedly for the ages, it should speak to our time. I think the Lady does, I am not so sure about Poe's work, but I do like it, nobody writes like he does.

Poems speak to all of us, what are they saying? What part of it resonated with YOU?

I'm still trying to figure out some of Eliot's,  and that cake left out in the rain,  and the Emperor of Ice Cream, and I haven't looked at them for years. Idle thoughts I guess of an idle mind.

I thought this had a lot of interesting statements in it from Jonathan:


And then there are times when I wonder if this poem was Tennyson's opium dream. His Kubla Khan, a la Coleridge. Or his Confessions, a la De Quincey. He must have been familiar with both. Perhaps in the next dream the Lady reawakens to her brave new world. The broken mirror could have us wishing that the smoke  gets blown away. I've never seen a poem with so many poetical devices. So many tricks of the imagination. Flesh and blood is hard to find, but it's there.

When you do see flesh and blood in this, what do they show? I agree on the poetical devices, it's chock full of them, amazing, really. I am not sure how much deeper we want to get into the literary  structure of the thing, but it's not just a little ditty.

"Dreams are true while they last, and do we not live in dreams?" and this wonder - "Self-reverence, self-knowledge, self-control; these three alone lead one to sovereign power."

Tennyson said this, Barbara?

Wow. How much of this do we see in the Lady crossing the room?

I think Pat has put her finger on this one in respose to your statement ab out the Victorian woman:

I agree, the "plight of the restricted Victorian woman" is a powerful strand of this multifaceted poem, maybe part of why it became so popular.

I was just thinking  how poetry, like the War Poets in what used to be called Modern American Poetry, reflect the times they are in.

And if Victorian women (I know nothing of Victorian women) did relate to it as a freedom, seeking freedom from the restrictive (and not only in mores, think of the clothes, the corsets, etc., ) then Tennyson's message here seen in that context is not very cheering.

Oh go off, then, and die. Better to stay at home safe then chafe against the bonds, is that what he's saying? Maybe this again is what has drawn the ire of feminists since. Whatever a "feminist" is.

WE however in 2015 may not see it that way.

Then there's the loneliness of the Lady. But again in 2015, why couldn't she think before acting? Surely there were other opportunities to reach out to somebody. She did not HAVE to be "alone." Why did it have to be Lancelot? 

Aim high? Aim so impossibly HIGH and do it so badly that there's nothing left but death? Is this where people get suicide, or is it from the original edited version. I fail to see how suicide would achieve any goal at all.

Of all the themes in this poem, and there are many as we've seen, which one is the most important, to you?

(I'm going off to see if I can find a youtube of a horse with bells on its harness, there is nothing more cheery sounding).



ALF43

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #170 on: February 23, 2015, 09:51:20 AM »
I don't know Ginny, I do not see her as living.  She was exiled, existing only, not really living.
Was it the hand that she was dealt?  Was it by CHOICE?
Either way being alive doesn't mean she was living, does it?
I, personally would choose to escape that sustainment.
Or is this all an escape by Tennyson?
 My mind becomes more befuddled as I push this theme around.
Camelot? To me that's akin to Utopia.  It's an abstract concept, isn't it?
Where the land of milk and honey is found; a fairy land of perfection- pie in the sky????   Nope, I don't buy it.  Perhaps I am too much of a realist to believe there is a Camelot (with or without Jack and Jackie.)

IMO she wanted to fashion a change, not recessed behind the castle walls, measuring life reflected through a cracked mirror.
That's another conndrum to me- what exactly is Tennyson saying by depicting her views through images? Could it be reproduction of life?
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

ginny

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #171 on: February 23, 2015, 12:32:37 PM »
Andrea, as always, WHAT good points!! I bet you are the toast of any face to face book club anywhere!

She was exiled, existing only, not really living.

So to you it's quality of life?  But she was singing?

Either way being alive doesn't mean she was living, does it?

What a question, what do the rest of you think?

Or is this all an escape by Tennyson?

How do you mean, exactly?

Shmoop has an interesting thought on the perspective one gets from looking down from a tower, let me quote it here:


Quote
The setting is like our world, only more so. Have you ever looked at something, and then put on a pair of sunglasses and looked again? You know how they can make something like a sunset seems more intense, brighter, more real than real? That's how we see the setting of this poem. It's not like you don't recognize the things you see, it's just that everything has been soaked in a weird and beautiful kind of magic. Things like trees that might ordinarily just stand there are suddenly almost alive; they dance and shiver. The river suddenly has a voice. It doesn't just burble along, it complains (line 120).

It's not like Tennyson just threw a few magic props into our world. There's something completely, mysteriously different about it. You imagine the sun would be brighter, the songs would be sweeter, and the knights would be taller and stronger. That magic mirror has a little bit of a "through-the-looking glass" feel to it already, and that's what we see everywhere around here: a world like ours, but a little distorted, richer and deeper and more fascinating.

I like that. I'm not sure if that's what you are saying, but i like it, a lot. I had not considered the perspective. But I did think of the grass being greener.

 But if that life in the tower was all that was given her (and again you do bring up choice) then why not make the most of IT?

Also is anybody at all buying into the "curse?" Jonathan mentioned he might be?


I came in to say I have replaced the heading original painting by Waterhouse with two by Howard Pyle which graced the First Edition (still available to you in used form on the internet) and the one we're probably the most familiar with by John William Waterhouse in the heading. My two favorite artists who could not be more different. :)

On the bells on the harness I found this film about how Shire horses are trained so they won't spook and the very first minutes have two trotting with bells on down a highway in the UK. Shires are big horses but they are what the Knights in armor used, due to the tremendous weights. You'll have to be the judge if ONE of these, going by on a dirt road could hear singing over the bells?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1jDHFb0OVE

And then I found a horse festival of the bells called Chagu Chagu Umako Japanese Horse Parade Festival , which has no sound, strangely enough but whose horses look caparisoned just like a Knight of old.




BarbStAubrey

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #172 on: February 23, 2015, 03:39:13 PM »
Oh the last photo - the close up of the Japanese Horses decked out for their parade takes my breath away - the color - the decoration - fabulous.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

nlhome

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #173 on: February 23, 2015, 04:21:18 PM »
Thinking about mirrors - my mirror is new and has clear reflections, but what would a mirror back then be like, would the reflections be more muted, hazy even, like a dream? So when she turned from the mirror and looked out, maybe the world was brighter, clearer, sharper than she expected. How would she react?


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #174 on: February 23, 2015, 06:18:24 PM »
The figure of Lancelot is in the mirror and the only one to make a comment when she arrives in Camelot.  This two page essay on Knights in Shining Armor: the Ideal of Christian Knighthood by Collen Anne McAndrew is really worth a read to better understand what Lancelot represented to the Lady of Shalott - and on the second page of this essay is this bit...

"he (Lancelot) continues to sin in relation to Guinevere, despite his attempts to avoid her. His penitence may ultimately save his soul - before he dies he "was houseled and anealed, and had all that a Christian man ought to have" -

Although the paragraph continues with the practical consequences of his behavior he is remembered as a figure of  renewal which includes confession of sin, that accompanies the assurances of pardon and therefore, Lancelot glorifies God's Redemption - However, the paragraph continues, "it is not enough to prevent the temporal consequences of his actions. Arthur and the best of his knights are dead, Guinevere is in a convent, and the fellowship of the Round Table, the "high order of knighthood," is irrevocably broken."

After reading the essay it sure makes Tennyson's last lines about the Lady from Lancelot perfect.

He said, "She has a lovely face;
God in his mercy lend her grace,

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #175 on: February 23, 2015, 06:21:14 PM »
Whoops forgot the link to the two page essay - tip - lots of annoying ads that pop in - you can easily get rid of them and when you change the page they come up again so you have to get rid of them again - you can even get rid of the top banner ads.

http://members.tripod.com/Snyder_AMDG/Annie1.html
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #176 on: February 24, 2015, 10:51:34 AM »
Oh that's a good point, nlhome! The mirrors and their reflective ability at the time.

She may have, now that you mention it, just been dazzled by the true image. I can't imagine having the will power never to look out a window!

Barbara, that's an interesting article, very very long. What I got out of it was Arthur is a literary creation, did that occur to you, too? It simply made no sense otherwise. It's a symbol as Andrea says.

So it was an ideal, which shifted, if I read that right, thank you for bringing that here.

That makes Lancelot's involvement even less probable.

And if you watch the horse training tape I doubt sincerely he could hear anything approaching singing over the horse footfalls and the bells. He was a moving nickelodeon.

My thoughts are that there's a strain here between fact and the willing suspension of belief of fiction.

If it's a fairy tale it certainly ends badly. If it's a statement about women in Victorian England it certainly carries the message to stay in your place and be content with what you have.

If it's a statement about all that's ideal it's a disappointment but look when he wrote it. I've enjoyed all the background info and thoughts you've all brought, including the religious angle Halcyon asked.

Knights in armor are impressive. The Metropolitan Museum of Art has several centerpieces of Knights in armor on life size horses also in armor and they are pretty darn amazing. Forget they were so heavy they had to be hoisted on these gigantic horses, not too much chance of romance there, if they are kitted out and riding.



Any horse and rider who goes by is impressive, whether it's a policeman or a Knight going to Camelot on the quest for goodness and honor and the Holy Grail. (I can't see those last two words without thinking Monty Python).

The reality must have been totally different. I agree with Andrea that it's an abstract concept and perhaps this, also: Or is this all an escape by Tennyson?

I think it may be. That doesn't mean it's not enjoyable to read.   I never understood the Victorians and that "I die for love" stuff, and here it is again. The lessons from it in 2015 are not very reassuring, are they? It possibly must be necessary to understand the Victorians themselves in depth, which I don't, to really understand the poem. It seems to me to be one thing missing here which we have not talked about or seen which is the key.


But she did take the chance and I wonder if or when she realized she was doomed in the undertaking? Maybe the cold? But she went on her way anyway..boy it's hard when the dream dies, isn't it? And you need to be careful what you wish for, you might just get it. And really where WAS she going and for what purpose? She wrote her name ON the boat in the 2nd version and carried a parchment in the first, so she knew she was not going to be partaking of the lights and the joy she wanted. How sad it is.

Had she stayed she could have been busy and singing, but Andrea says that's no life at all. Better take the chance.

So in conclusion what do you think of the Lady?

The poor thing, I feel sorry for her, she's dammed if she does, and dammed if she doesn't.

I guess we need to be wrapping this one up and calling for last thoughts as it ends on the 28th and this is the 24th.

I have so enjoyed your wonderful comments, and the vigorous discussions here!! Thank you for your generosity in offering them!


Halcyon

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #177 on: February 24, 2015, 11:02:22 AM »
Befuddled.  Someone said they were becoming more and more befuddled.  What I believe about the Lady changes daily, depending on the mood I'm in I would guess.  Maybe existing was living to her.  Maybe she had the most dysfunctional family in the whole of the kingdom and waited for a stormy day knowing she would perish and show them!  How did she even know Sir Lancelot was Sir Lancelot?  I read that there were so many syllables in each line so maybe Tennyson just used his words to come up with the right amount of syllables.  At first I pooh poohed Ginny's idea of hypothermia because it seemed too 21st century, too scientific to have happened in fairy tale times and, being brought up in the Adirondacks near Canada, I am sometimes unrealistic about weather.  Then I read this on Live Science:

Quote
Death without freezing

An unusually low body temperature is called hypothermia, and the average person will usually not experience this during a stint in the cold, Castellani said. But if you're wet and cold, it’s a different story, since your body loses heat about 25 times faster in water than in air, according to Michael Sawka, chief of the Thermal & Mountain Medicine Division at USARIEM.

People can even develop hypothermia at temperatures above freezing if it's raining.

Normal core body temperature is 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit, and mild hypothermia sets in at about 95 degrees F. After that, "as you start dropping [in temperature], bad things happen," Sawka said.

At 91 degrees F, you can experience amnesia.
At 82 degrees you can lose consciousness
Below 70 degrees F, you are said to have profound hypothermia and death can occur, Sawka said.
The record for the lowest body temperature at which an adult has been known to survive is 56.7 degrees F, which occurred after the person was sumgered in cold, icy water for quite some time, according to Castellani.
[/color]

I like Jonathon's opinion that it's a whodunit.  Speaking of whodunits, Ginny you asked why I was reading about the Ojibwa.  William Kent Krueger writes a mystery series that centers around the Ojibwa culture.  Very interesting so I started reading about them.  funny how whatever you're reading can be applied to so many different times and cultures.  Love it.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #178 on: February 24, 2015, 03:56:59 PM »
I still hang on to my earliest understanding of the poem - yes, a fairy tale but then till the very late nineteenth century most poems were to be read as a window of truths and emotions - Romantic poetry - rather than as a literary story or explaining a happening or a political, social, and economic, concern that is more popular after Tennyson.

We read over and over how Tennyson was on the cusp fighting with the change in poetry that coincided with the Industrial Revolution.  He preferred the older Romantic viewpoint for his work. And like any fairytale we know the characters are not only make believe but they usually represent something - To me the way to think of this is like when we see on TV or on paper a large muscled bald man in a white tee shirt, we know he is an image for a cleaning product - and even as children reading Red Riding Hood we knew a wolf does not talk or hide in grandma's night clothes after acting as a wild animal and eating the grandmother.

And so the Arthur stories, like so many myths of many cultures - have a meaning beyond the obvious story - as in her earlier post, Halcyon recollected a Native American myth - Some of the early myths, hundreds of years before Rome came to British Isles, these old stories are symbolic tales of cultural values, loyalty, sacrifice and death, redemption, bravery etc. etc.  

Tucked in my reservoir are symbols and their meaning that others may not have had similar associations - all I can do is share what I see in this poem - my viewpoint is not right or wrong - it is not meant to take away from anyone's interpretation of the symbols Tennyson used in this myth poem.

It may help to understand my philosophical education was less of Thomas Aquinas and his duality between essence and existence and therefore, having to prove the existence of God but rather, more of Mister Eckhart who says, that in God there is an intelligence which precedes being, existence and understanding are the same and we, as rational creatures, are gifted with a spiritual soul. Both Thomas and Mister Eckhart were philosophers 200 years before Luther and are studied in schools today as thinkers from a common Christian philosophy.

In one of his many papers Mister Eckhart has a beautiful description of the souls connection to God - so wondrous is the description it sends chills up your spine. And in the spirit of that understanding this poem can be one of Salvation, Regeneration, Passing into the life of the spirit, Justified by faith, that is included in the Arthur myths.  

The reapers reaping barley, the grain of bread that is the symbol for the Body of Christ.

She looks into the mirror, as the eyes are the window to the soul so, the mirror reflects back to us Justice. In the language of Scripture, Justice means not only that great moral virtue which gives everyone his due, but it represents a perfect state of soul, the perfection, the completion of all virtues.

And in this mirror she sees Lancelot - not the human sexual man but the symbol of the glorious container for God's virtues as were the characteristics of a knight. The way Tennyson describes him it is not hard to see the likeness to a Monstrance - that holds the host, the symbolic body of Christ, displayed during the holiest of ceremonies like on Holy Thursday.

A photo -

She, surrounded by the Lily, symbol of the Annunciation, goes to the water, in Celtic culture, access to the other world, in Christian culture, regeneration, Baptism, born of the Spirit. Enters a boat, the church, the ark, the ship of salvation also in Celtic lore, Manannan who sailed without sail or oars - here is a bit about the Celtic God Manannan
http://manannan.net/whois/index.html

She floats in a river, a rite of passage from one state to another, in song, the harmony of the sphere of life, sailing through a cold rainy night, the creative power in spiritual darkness, to her death, which symbolically death simply means death to the earthy life preceding the spiritual life, which is the core of our sacraments, Baptism, Holy Communion, and so forth according to if you are Anglican as Tennyson or seeing the symbolism as a Catholic.

As she floats past the walled garden, field of the souls, onto The kingdom of Camelot, the bright, idealized city which could only have been found in legend, where Lancelot, in his goodness says, "God in his mercy lend her grace." Which goes back the Eckhart who says, God gives us grace and that grace is what the soul rides on as a direct link to God.

There are many more bits and pieces that can be understood from this myth but those are the highlights to give the symbolic message of this poem that is beneath the Aquinas like existence of the storyline. I have so enjoyed this discussion because I did see the differences between Aquinas and Eckhart play out as this, yep another long one, essay speaks... http://www.quodlibet.net/articles/drazenovich-eckhart.shtml

 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #179 on: February 24, 2015, 04:45:08 PM »
That's glorious, Barb. Tennyson would see a kindred spirit in you. I'm eager to get to the link on Eckhart. He does take one out of this world. Or should I say he transforms it?

It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that hypothermia killed The Lady. But it has to be ruled out. I'm certain that Tennyson would be miffed by the suggestion.  For the simple reason that there is no poetry in hypothermia

She died for love. Of course it's heartbreaking that she never lived to meet Lancelot or enjoy Camelot. If she did die of the cold, then I would have to think that Tennyson just liked the sound of Camelot and it provided  the refrain that a good ballad must have. And Lancelot and Shalott make good rhymes.

Come to think of it, 'tower and balcony, garden wall and gallery', and floating 'between the houses high' have me wondering if this isn't Venice in which The Lady finds herself.

And then there are the landscapes: "Willows whiten, aspens quiver, Little breezes dusk and shiver Thro' the wave that runs for ever By the island in the river....'

Why did it have to turn cold? I can't forgive Tennyson.

ALF43

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #180 on: February 25, 2015, 10:40:49 AM »
To everything there is a season, Jonathan!
Barb- that was brilliantly written ahhh a baptism of sorts; the rite of passage. What beautiful symbolism that depicts. Thank you, it would never have crossed my mind. I love it!

"Tucked in my reservoir are symbols and their meaning that others may not have had similar associations - all I can do is share what I see in this poem - my viewpoint is not right or wrong - it is not meant to take away from anyone's interpretation of the symbols Tennyson used in this myth poem. "
AMEN!
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

ginny

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #181 on: February 26, 2015, 10:07:06 AM »
Well!!! You have certainly done this short poem proud!! Such interpretations and such input, I have thoroughly enjoyed exploring this poem with you all!!

 I agree with all of you and none of you really. I agree with Halcyon that "What I believe about the Lady changes daily, depending on the mood I'm in I would guess. "

Me too.

How did she even know Sir Lancelot was Sir Lancelot?  I don't think she did, but the all seeing 3rd person  narrator did, and we never explained who he or she was?

Then Barbara comes up with the creative take of the day: "I still hang on to my earliest understanding of the poem - yes, a fairy tale but then till the very late nineteenth century most poems were to be read as a window of truths and emotions - Romantic poetry - rather than as a literary story or explaining a happening or a political, social, and economic, concern that is more popular after Tennyson. "

And that's compelling, too. It may very well be just a fairy tale, we read them every day, I'm reading one now, which is a horror/ sci fi thing and yes they always symbolize something.  I really admire your handling of that set of metaphors.  

As Andrea said,
Thank you, it would never have crossed my mind. I love it!


I do too, in literary criticism you can postulate any theory you like if  if the poem backs it up.

And I really do enjoy trying to figure out what things mean, because we all do that every time we read a book. This was a good selection for that purpose because there are no answers, not really. You can find people passionately staking their reputations on their interpretation but,  they disagree.

There are a lot of things I still don't know about the poem. Who is the narrator, does it matter, whence comes the curse ( I think she made it up and convinced herself of it), why did she go about going to Camelot in the dark cold rain, why the descriptions of the people of Camelot? Was that "the world goes on when tragedy strikes" type of thing or something else?

Jonathan, what a hoot on the hypothermia. " I'm certain that Tennyson would be miffed by the suggestion.  For the simple reason that there is no poetry in hypothermia. "

"She died for love.


Why did it have to turn cold? I can't forgive Tennyson."


hahaha, that's the rub, isn't it? And note not only cold but wet, you need both. He's no fool, he knows you don't die "for love," even tho it apparently was a popular theme in Victorian England, when you're finally getting what you wanted or think you wanted. Maybe the excitement killed her. Maybe she was an excitable person.

I personally love trying to figure things out. I mean it IS written in English, we should know what's said, right?  And as Halcyon says, you read something one place and it applies to so many other things.

There are a lot of things I still don't understand about the poem or the Victorians, but I sure have enjoyed trying, and hearing everybody's diverse but always exciting opinions.

Thank you all so much for your input and super ideas!



Jonathan

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #182 on: February 26, 2015, 03:39:15 PM »
And thank you, Ginny, for choosing it for discussion. It's a fantastic bit of poetry. It has everything. What really brought that home for me was your...'close up of the Japanese Horses decked out for their parade takes my breath away - the color - the decoration - fabulous.' In post 171.
 
Couldn't the same thing be said for the poem? It's as richly caparisoned with objects and symbols. What a scene. What a word picture. The river with its island. The fields of barley. The lilies. The reaper. The Knight. The lovers in the moonlight. The Lady. The curse. And, of course, the mirror.

nlhome's post on the mirror (173) brought a shock of recognition. Or was it an alert. This was no ordinary mirror. We're told. The Lady weaves 'the mirror's magic sights.' Followed by the strangest lines: 'For often thro' the silent nights A funeral, with plumes and lights And music, went to Camelot. Does the Lady have a death wish?

And here's the payoff. The biography I'm reading quotes Tennyson as saying:

'Poetry is like shot-silk with many glancing colours. Every reader must find her own interpretation according to her ability, and according to her sympathy with the poet.'

And about the Idyll Lancelot and Elaine, written years later, the author says 'the poem is in part a revisiting of The Lady of Shalott.' For him, no doubt, like revisiting a trance. It was all so lovely. It was, after all, a magic mirror.

Halcyon

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #183 on: February 26, 2015, 03:41:52 PM »
Thank you, Ginny, for leading the discussion.  It sure was fun!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #184 on: February 26, 2015, 07:48:27 PM »
Cannot believe it is the end of the month already and the end of this discussion - as usual Ginny you really give us lots to chew on when you lead a discussion - love it - and the heading links - the Haunting and beautiful Lureen Mckenna made me want to dig out my two CDs of her singing - neither has this hymn to the Lady and it is lovely - and then the quiz from the Met was a real coup - - -

With so many bitter cold and stormy nights during our read time it was easy to wonder if we would die - well not really but sure gave impact to the story. Like Jonathan the photos of the Japanese horses was a gift as well as acknowledging each of us who all shared such diverse interpretations of the poem - great job - thanks - of course I enjoyed it - I love not only poetry but the romantics bring me to another level of light and airy being.  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #185 on: February 27, 2015, 05:51:17 AM »
Thank you Ginny, et.al., for a wonderful discussion. We'll have to go this again sometime.

ALF43

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #186 on: February 28, 2015, 08:18:48 AM »
Many thanks to you, Ginny, for taking the reins on this assignment. As usual, you have added an immense I terest and fun to the discussion. Nobody can lead a discussion like you, I truly have missed being here in this wonderful group. I'm off to find Lancelot I my kitchen.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

ginny

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #187 on: February 28, 2015, 10:03:17 AM »
Well here we are to wrap up our short but eminently enjoyable discussion of The Lady of Shalott, and aren't you all kind? Thank you so much for all the generosity you showed during the discussion in really making the effort to discuss the issues and bringing in such points of your own. Certainly quite a few of them would never have occurred to me, and my own experience was much richer for it.

I have to say I have tremendously enjoyed this experience, thanks to you. If one is going to meet with friends as I hope we all are, to discuss a book in one's living room, one hopes that (1) the group has actually read the book ...(those of you in face to face discussions know what I'm talking about)...(2) somebody will dare, will take the plunge, and it IS a plunge, somebody will be brave enough,  to talk about how they really feel about the themes in the book and (3) that it will be an enjoyable experience for all.

I think, thanks to your inestimable help, we met those goals, in spades.

I won't say we reinvented literary theory or the wheel.  We didn't offer a course in Victorian Poetry, and that wasn't our intention.

I just wanted to enjoy the experience and I agree, it was fun. I looked forward to coming in every day  and seeing what you all had to say, and then going away and thinking about it. I'm still thinking about some of the points you made.

  I will say I tremendously enjoyed each and every person's input. Do I think differently about the Lady?

I think I do. I haven't seen this thing for years and have never read it as closely as we did. It stood up to the end,  stubbornly  insisting on its mystery and its integrity.   Most of my days are spent trying to make parallels between writings 2000 years old and our modern world, so this one should have been a push over,  and it wasn't. I loved that. I like mystery, I like fantasy,  I like myth, and I like a good discussion and cordial exchange of opinion,  and this one was full of it.

Yes, let's do do it again sometime, I've also missed this experience,  and thank you ALL, each and every one of you, for making it the enjoyable journey it was. :)




Jonathan

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #188 on: February 28, 2015, 03:01:44 PM »
Thank you, everybody. I would never have believed that a hundred or two lines of poetry could make for so much lively comment. Yes, let's do it again sometime. And another lady.

How about Alexander Pope's The Rape Of The Lock?

ginny

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #189 on: February 28, 2015, 08:28:48 PM »
:) What on earth made you think of that?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #190 on: February 28, 2015, 08:36:52 PM »
 ;) "I'm restless. Things are calling me away. My hair is being pulled by the stars again." Anais Nin
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #191 on: March 01, 2015, 07:19:50 AM »
What an intriguing quote, Barb. I like it.

When I looked up Anais Nin, I found this one which often seems so true.

"When others asked the truth of me, I was convinced it was not the truth they wanted, but an illusion they could bear to live with."

Jonathan

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #192 on: March 01, 2015, 02:16:45 PM »
Thanks, Barb, for supplying me with the answer to Ginny's question: Why The Rape Of The Lock?

Anais Nin felt immortal longings when she said, 'My hair is being pulled by the stars again.' And that isjust what happens in the poem. Belinda's stolen lock of hair is whisked off by heavenly agents and is forever shining among the stars. That's how the story ends:

'This Lock, the Muse shall concecrate to fame, And midst the stars inscribe Belinda's name.'

Never does it seem more fateful than to have it seen that hair is a woman's crowning glory. The little lock looked just too beautiful and with a snip of the tiny scissors...the consequences are given a classical treatment by the poet. Pope had just translated Homer's Iliad. That's the one I read when I was young. I was intrigued. What else, I wondered, has this poet written. Now I see an epic in the night sky.

Frybabe

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #193 on: March 01, 2015, 03:19:00 PM »
That goes to show you haw ignorant I am of poetry. I never read The Rape of Lock, so I didn't catch the inference. I looked it up. A satirical poem. Might be fun to read with a group such as ours.

PatH

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #194 on: March 01, 2015, 03:40:10 PM »
It took Ginny to see that this short poem had enough in it to keep us going for a month.  Thank you,everyone.

ginny

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Re: Lady of Shalott, The~ by Alfred Lord Tennyson~ February 9-28
« Reply #195 on: March 02, 2015, 03:17:39 PM »
Goodness, isn't that interesting? I think we could discuss anything, to tell you the truth, and tremendously enjoy it. I am a fool for "series," anything in a series, maybe we can do a series of poems, who knows? Maybe themes...so many delightful possibilities and such fun provided.... Thank you, Pat, I do appreciate the input of each of you! (I like Schmoop. Do you consider it "giving up?" to use it? What a question!

Hope to see you all  again in the future!

:)