Author Topic: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online  (Read 61693 times)

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #120 on: March 07, 2015, 11:19:22 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

March/April Book Club Online

Emma
by Jane Austen


"I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like”  Jane Austen of Emma.


Will you like her, the heroine who Austen claimed was most like herself, and who inspired a movie called "Clueless"? If not, there's lots more to like in this classic novel of love, misdirection, and social class.


Schedule
March 1-5       Chapters 1-7
   March 6 -        Chapters 8-17

QUESTIONS CHAPTERS 8 TO 17


1. Mr. Martin is an important character who we never hear speak. We know what he's like only through the opinions of others. Is this technique effective? Why does Austen use it? Do you remember other such Austen characters?

2. Were you able to solve the "riddles"? Was the "charade" an effective courtship device?

3. In Chapter X, Emma gives a spirited defense of "old maids." Would such a defense be needed today?

4. In this section, Austen gives us many examples of ordinary conversation between minor characters. What purposes do these conversations serve? Which was the funniest? What role do Emma and Mr. Knightley play in those conversations?

5. Do any of the minor characters introduced remind you of someone you know? Which? Is Austen's portrayal of ordinary foibles accurate.

6. When did you first realize that things were not going as Emma had planned? Looking back, how does Austen misdirect us? How does she set up the final scene?

7. Does seeing Emma in adversity change your opinion of her? What strengths of character does it reveal?




BarbStAubrey

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #121 on: March 07, 2015, 11:20:53 PM »
I think part of the charm of books written by Jane Austen is she is similar in her subject to Marcel Proust and his Remembrances of Things Past.

I'm thinking of authors today - so few are confined to a small piece of real estate as Jane was with only mail for outside communication - I wonder if that is why there are so many stories about an author's inner life or a character who is sorting or discovering their inner life - about the only place in today's world were the walls of containment capture a time and place.

Come to think on it that movie last year, forgot the name. with Robert Redford sailing alone and his boat is damaged till he finally has to abandon it for a dinghy and bit by bit he, and we, are made aware that all his ways of communicating with the outside world cannot be accessed. The difference with this story of Emma is there is a cast of characters encased in this bottle with her.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #122 on: March 07, 2015, 11:21:48 PM »
ELLA: at the time, novels were looked down on (Austen hotly defe3nds them in some of her stories. reading collections of sermons, or of advise to young people were recommended. (For me, that's the equivalent of eating gruel. I suspect Austen, like Emma, found that a little of that went a long way.

Yes, the riddles are like our charades. No wonder you didn't get the "fair and frozen maid." my sources give the whole thing. It's many verses long, and even with the answer in front of me (chimney sweep) I didn't get it. It was written by Garrick, the actor/playwright, and I assume was so well enough known at the time, that Austen would expect her readers to smile and think "Oh, that old thing!"

The same is true for the first short riddle that Elton submits. (Did you get it? The answer is woman). Presumably, Austen wants you to see Mr. Woodhouse and Elton as dull and unoriginal. (Which makes me wonder if Elton is really supposed to have made up the courtship one.  That is apparently original to Austen).

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #123 on: March 07, 2015, 11:27:30 PM »
ELLA: we were posting at the same time. That's an interesting idea.

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #124 on: March 08, 2015, 01:31:41 PM »
I do like how Emma expresses to Harriet how she has no desire to marry.  She seems perfectly happy and contented in her life at this time.  She has a nice home, good finances, a doting father, and no intention to be employed now or in her future.  Harriet, does not seem to comprehend this, because Harriet comes from an entirely different life, and Harriet needs to find a man to marry in order to secure her future.

pg. 404 Emma,  "I have none of the usual inducements of women to marry.  Were I to fall in love, indeed, it would be a different thing; but I never have been in love; it is not my way, or my nature; and I do not think I ever shall.  And, without love, I am sure I should be a foot to change such a situation as mine.  Fortune I do not want; employment I do not want; consequence I do not want; I believe few married women are half as much mistress of their husband's house as I am of Hartfield; and never, never could I expect to be so truly beloved and important; so always first and always right in any man's eyes as I am in my father's"

Emma seems satisfied to not have children of her own, saying nieces and nephews will suffice.  So, I must ask this question...

What will Emma do if and when her father dies?  

He can not live forever, and then her reality would sink in as far as no companionship, no one to praise her, no one for her to care for.  I like how Emma refuses to marry for convenience, like most women, she has the liberty to choose this, unlike most women.  I like how she will not marry unless, and if she were to fall in love.  I see her at the age of twenty-one, still very young, she does not see herself finding any man that would be superior to her, and think of her as her father does.  What we think we know one day can easily change without notice.  I can't wait to see if and when Emma does fall in love, if indeed it will be our Mr. Knightley.  Someone mentioned Mr. Martin, now that would be a stretch for me, and Emma.  

Okay on to chapter 10.  I am finding I am not reading as fast as I did the first chapters.  There is a lot to take in, and give pause to in these chapters this week.  And a new character Jane Fairfax!
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JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #125 on: March 08, 2015, 03:59:48 PM »
There is another new character in the wings waiting til next week to come on. Who is this frank Churchill we hear about but never see?

How are the rest of you doing?

Halcyon

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #126 on: March 08, 2015, 05:45:58 PM »
I finished the reading and am anxiously awaiting the arrival of Mr. Churchill.  I thought the riddles impossible.  I think one would have to live in that era to get them.  As far as misdirection....the portrait and that whole business of rushing off to to London to have the picture framed.  Poor Mr. Elton.  As far as "old maids" of today, is that phrase even used?  It is not unusual for today's women to pursue a career instead of marrying and to even have children without marrying.  Probably simplifies life for some.

Jonathan

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #127 on: March 08, 2015, 05:59:26 PM »
I'm reading your posts with the greatest interest. I may have to change my mind about Emma. Perhaps the book is one great charade. There certainly is much to puzzle over.

pedln

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #128 on: March 08, 2015, 05:59:31 PM »
No, we haven't seen Mr. Churchill yet in person, but others have been talking about him partiularly the lovely letter he sent MRs. Weston.  And it seems there is some speculation about whether he will be able to come or not.  Some impossible woman?  Would that be his grandmother?  I don't always remember a details from my readings, but did Mr. Weston give up the raising of Frank to his deceased wife's parents, the Churchills?

My speculations are that there will be three men after Emma --- Mr. Elton, Frank Churchill, and George Knightley.  I'm about at Chpt. 14 or 15.

I was surprised reading in this section to find Mr. John Knightley fussing so much about going out in the snow.  He sounded just like MR. Woodhouse.

And .  .    .  . haven't met her yet in person, but is this Jane Fairfax going to play some part.  Am I getting the feeling that Emma doesn't care for her?

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #129 on: March 08, 2015, 07:29:37 PM »
Jane Fairfax will definitely play a part. And yes, Emma doesn't care for her. Can you guess why?

john Knightly definitely reminds me of someone I know. the complete grouchpot! And his wife, sailing along oblivious. No wonder Emma finds him trying!

Have you gotten to the "war of the apothecaries" between Mr. Woodhouse and Isabel yet?

Austen certainly has a sharp eye for the silliness of much of our ordinary conversation, doesn't she? Do we sound that silly when we talk?

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #130 on: March 08, 2015, 10:38:21 PM »
OMG!  I have just finished chapter 16 and my head is spinning!!!!

Where to begin?  First off I do want to point out how Emma is a caring and compassionate person.  pg. 405

"They are now approaching the cottage, and all ilde topics were suspended.  Emma was very compassionate; and the distress of the poor was as sure of relief from her personal attention and kindness, her counsel, and her patience, as from her purse.  She understood their ways, could allow for their ignorance and their temptations, had no romantic expectations of extraordinary virtue from those for whom education had done so little, entered into their troubles with ready sympathy, and always gave her assistance with as much intelligence as good-will.  In the present instance, it was sickness and poverty together which she came to visit; and after remaining there as long as she could give comfort or advice, she quitted the cottage with such an impression of the scene as made her say to Harriet, as they walked away:  "These are the sights, Harriet, to do one good.  How trifling they make everything else appear!  I feel now as if I could think of nothing but these poor creatures all the rest of the day; and yet who can say how soon it may all vanish from my mind?"  "Ah, Harriet, here comes sudden trial of our stability in good thoughts.  Well" (smiling), "I hope it may be allowed that if compassion has produced exertion and relief to the sufferers, it has done all that is truly important.  If we feel for the wretched enough to do all we can for them, the rest is empty sympathy, only distressing to ourselves."

What ever else may cause some to criticize Emma, and not like her, I feel she is more than a shallow, match maker.

So now Isabella, her husband Mr. John Knightley, and their five children, are coming to Hatfield for a visit.

JoanK.,
Quote
Have you gotten to the "war of the apothecaries" between Mr. Woodhouse and Isabel yet?

I had to laugh at the fact Isabella is so much like her father with her insecurities of her health, and stands firm with him when they have this little war of words, on which doctor is correct in taking their children to the open air at the sea.  My take on the entire conversation was, Mr. Woodhouse was upset Isabella preferred taking her family to the sea, rather than come to visit Hartfield.  He is using the doctors, sea, air, health, etc., to deflect his hurt feelings in her choice.  

I have a daughter who lives in Florida, and has visited her husband's family in Georgia much more, than coming to Ohio to visit her family.  Even though her argument is much like Isabella's, it's a shorter distance, and less expensive, I still can't help but feel like Mr. Woodhouse, wanting them to come visit us.

So much is happening in these chapters, I feel like I can't read fast enough, yet I am trying not to read so fast I miss things.  

Seems, Mr. John Knightley has a disliking for Mr. Weston, and yet he is very insightful about Mr. Elton's feelings for Emma.  I don't want to jump too far ahead, because again I may need some more pictures of fireworks!  We now know the first name of the other Knightley brother is George.  He has come to visit his brother, Isabella and the children, and he and Emma have called a truce.  Phew...thank goodness that is resolved for now.

Jonathan,
Quote
" I may have to change my mind about Emma.

Oh no, you mustn desert your first impressions of Emma.  I am up to chapter 17, and she so far for me has remained a really good friend to Harriet, in spite of her lack of insight into Mr. Elton's Charade, and I use that word literally.  She had no idea what his intentions were.  She had Harriet's best interest at heart.  Emma is a kind, and caring person, who gets a bit caught up in her attempts to help others.  She at this point has not been intentionally malicious to anyone.  If anything, I think she has come to realize, men know men, on a level she is not capable of knowing them, and realizes how she was deceived by Mr. Elton, and realizes the harm that has been done in her matchmaking.  She is torn apart having to tell Harriet what the reality of things are.  But, don't forget, Harriet was interested in Mr. Martin, so for her at least all could still work out for the best.  A blessing in disguise.

As for how many men may be interested in Emma, that remains to be seen.  But, it seems, Emma is considering taking never marrying off the table, since Mr. Frank Churchill's name has come to light, and he is coming for a visit.  Oh, I can just see Mr. George Knightley not liking this one bit.  It may be time to declare his real feelings for Emma, before Frank Churchill grabs her up.  That is of course, assuming he will be at all interested in Emma.  Where does Miss Fairfax fit into all of this?  Hmmm.....I sense a web is being spun.

I don't feel the story is so much a "charade", as it is an entangled web, to be sorted out.  Oh the fun it will be!!! 

On to the last two chapters.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #131 on: March 08, 2015, 11:02:05 PM »
I had no idea what the heck "gruel" was.  Had to Google it..... gruel, "a thin food made by boiling oatmeal or some other grain in water or milk.  A thin porridge." 

So it seems everyone enjoys, or doesn't necessarily enjoy, eating porridge before bedtime.  Right? 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #132 on: March 08, 2015, 11:04:40 PM »
JONATHAN: you see from BELLAMARIE's post, EMMA really is a good person. She just needs some seasoning.

Our two hypochondriacs are funny. In their defense, though, getting ill was much more serious then in the days before antibiotics. People did die young then of illnesses we would just throw off. And doctors, with their habit of "bleeding" people, just made things worse.

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #133 on: March 08, 2015, 11:07:24 PM »
We have plenty of time. has anyone read the scene in the carriage yet? Without giving it away, were you surprised? How does Austen set us up for it? Does the way she handles the aftermath increase your good opinion of her?

Jonathan

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #134 on: March 09, 2015, 11:07:25 AM »
'We have plenty of time.' - Joan

And I need plenty of time. I had no idea what I was getting into with this book. I'm impressed. Finally an author who knows how to work with the details. Without sweat on her part, but much for her characters. The carriage scene certainly gets stormy. Just Emma's self-control raises her in my estimation. But she meddles too much in other peoples' lives.

Emma's experience also teaches me that there is no romance in matchmaking. She is no romantic herself, and yet, with her matchmaking she seems to be playing with fire. Let us hope she doesn't burn the house down.

Halcyon

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #135 on: March 09, 2015, 11:12:20 AM »
I was surprised at how presumptuous someone was in the carriage scene.  I wonder if that behavior was the norm.

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #136 on: March 09, 2015, 11:53:59 AM »
The carriage scene was so unexpected.  Emma, had to think Mr. Elton had a bit too much to drink, to act as he did.  I think she conducted herself quite well, with everything to deal with.  She tried with all her might to give him the benefit of the doubt, considering other than Mr. John Knightley forewarning, she never saw it coming. 

We have to remember, Emma has never been in love.  She has had no suitors, this is all new to her.  She thinks matchmaking is something you can easily will to happen, between two people.  She is learning from this.  Yes, Jonathan, let's hope she does not burn the house down, and everyone in it!   :o   :o

I need to go finish chapter 17 & 18 to see how Harriet takes all this.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #137 on: March 09, 2015, 12:01:11 PM »
Question #6.   
Quote
When did you first realize that things were not going as Emma had planned? Looking back, how does Austen misdirect us?

I sensed Mr. Elton had other motives, back when Mr. Knightley tried to warm Emma.  Mr. Knightley, may criticize and spar with Emma, but from day one, I have felt he truly has her best interest at heart, and of course I think he is in love with her, although he may not even be aware of it just yet. 

I feel Austen misdirects us with the painting.  I was a bit stumped, as to why Mr. Elton was taking so much interest in Harriet's portrait, to the point of marveling, and traveling to London to have it framed. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #138 on: March 09, 2015, 12:56:31 PM »
You have to wonder if Julian Fellows borrowed Mr. Elston for Cora to be taken in - the Downton Abbey Cora...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #139 on: March 09, 2015, 01:56:27 PM »
Barb, not sure what you are referring to.  I have not finished watching the new season.  It's still waiting on my dvr to see. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #140 on: March 09, 2015, 03:53:02 PM »
BARB: that's a good question. BELLAMARIE: you'll find out what she means.

Who else was completely surprised? I was the first time I read it. But if you look back at the scenes with Elton, Emma and Harriet together, it's all there. Mr. Elton always mentions Emma first, and Harriet as an afterthought. And he gives his "charade" to Emma when Harriet isn't around. Emma sees what she wants to see.

BELLAMARIE: "I feel Austen misdirects us with the painting." Mr. Elton is thrilled with the painting because Emma painted it, not because it shows Harriet. His praises make that clear, IF you're looking for it. I think Austen has been tremendously clever here.

HALCYON:Yes, Mr. Elton is too forward in the coach. His manners throughout aren't quite what they should be. But in his defense, he thinks Emma has received and accepted his "courtship" poem, and has no idea that she hasn't understood him.

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #141 on: March 09, 2015, 03:58:54 PM »
Jonathan: "Finally an author who knows how to work with the details."

Absolutely! I've read this book probably four times, and each time I see some detail I hadn't noticed before! Maybe that's why we "Austen addicts" are, well, addicts.

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #142 on: March 09, 2015, 04:04:28 PM »
JoanK., Yes, I completely got it all, once the whole carriage ride took place, going back to Hartfield.  Emma was also able to get it, once she went home and thought more about it. 

Mr. Elton did indeed think Emma was reciprocating his feelings, by accepting the Charade.  If anything good has come from all of this, Emma has been taught to stop meddling in the matchmaking department.  Love is complicated, even when the two parties are aware of each other's feelings, let alone all the hidden, mixed, and unspoken messages.

Emma may see what she wants to see, but I may also point out, Mr. Elton was seeing what he wanted to see as well.  He was as mortified at her rejection, as she was at his professing his love for her.    ???   ???
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #143 on: March 09, 2015, 04:08:37 PM »
BELLAMARIE: "Emma may see what she wants to see, but I may also point out, Mr. Elton was seeing what he wanted to see as well."

Good point!

That must have been a loooong ride back!!

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #144 on: March 09, 2015, 05:17:45 PM »
I was reading the book this morning and was surprised when I turned the page and saw VOLUME TWO, and then Chapter 1. 

Being ahead of everyone else would be a first for me, I'm a slow reader.  Hoever, I think most of us have read through the carriage ride in the snow. 

I do hope that Austen will improve on Emma's character in the next volume.  I dislike her more and more, silly girl that she is, to presume to think she can manage affairs of others, particularly affairs of the heart.  She has is so blithely unaware - the book, more and more, reminds of a play, a Noel Coward one perhaps; am trying to conceive of who would play Emma and Mr. Knightly.  Mr. Woodhouse and Harriett would be easier to cast.

It would have to be an English play and the only actor I know of, or can think of right at the moment, is Hugh Grant.  Helen Mirren would be too old for Emma........................

Who?   

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #145 on: March 09, 2015, 05:41:56 PM »
Had a thought - I wonder if this story was a spoof - I am remembering back as a girl before it was an easy comradeship between boys and girls - before twitter and for many of us we still did not have a home phone that for us did not take place till I was in the 6th grade - back when most high schools were not yet co-ed - and it was common for folks to, as we called it set each other up - and for girls and even guys to covertly tell another when someone had a crush on them - and even among family members there was pairing that often led to marriage between an unrelated cousin or a next door neighbor's son or someone from church.

And so I am wondering as Emma attempts to matchmake for Harriet if Jane Austin is attempting to show that Emma did not see it coming and had to stand up for herself so to speak in the carriage just as Harriet has to, within herself stand up for her self because others cannot read our hearts. I am wondering if that is the message of Jane Austen - that a loving union is about heart and not about the practical reasons of the day for a union of marriage based on who can afford to take care of you or others, including the suitor suggesting, look at what a perfect match you could be since you share this or that interest and therefore that should be enough to secure a marriage. Hm I am remembering the movie 7 Brides for 7 Brothers and all the brothers were in love where as the eldest goes to town to chose a wife who thought she was chosen for love and learns she was chosen because she was a good worker and that was important to this elder brother oh and by the way she was pretty.

I am seeing the interior of the carriage as a metaphor to our interior feelings and self talk that is like a carriage ride for Harriet and that the idea of a close knit society attempting to choose mates for others is filled with sharp corners so that a reader can shake their head up and down - oh yes, I know that one, ah yes, exactly how I felt and how did she know - almost as a Saturday Night Live spoof but without the comics hmm maybe more like a daytime soap opera where women at home were glued to the stories that showed the pitfalls of everyday occurrences.    

I think what I am trying to say it may not be meddling that our Emma is about as much as not seeing marriage is based in mutual love and affection because as fliberty gibbit as she has been she did not seem to have a handle on love as much as loyalty and caring to please her father and those are the feelings she comes from in her relationships with others. This episode with Mr. Elton may startle her into becoming aware of herself in a new light as if his unwanted attention is a mirror to seeing herself in a different light. To really understanding she is a desirable women not just a loyal care taker with good intentions for her father for Harriet and anyone within her small circle.

P.S. stepping back I am having a difficult time expressing myself but I am thinking today we readers know the pitfalls of matchmaking and squirm thinking ill of anyone attempting to matchmake where as I am thinking it was an ordinary practice in a time before there was much casual mixture among the young marriageable age men and women - therefore the issue I am thinking during the early nineteenth century was the dichotomy between the concept of marrying for love rather than simply making a good match.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #146 on: March 09, 2015, 06:26:24 PM »
BARB: :This episode with Mr. Elton may startle her into becoming aware of herself in a new light as if his unwanted attention is a mirror to seeing herself in a different light. To really understanding she is a desirable women"

Good point, I hadn't thought of it before. Since she isn't thinking of romance and marriage for herself, she is awfully slow to realize that someone else might look at her that way. I was thinking that since she is so sure that Mr. Elton is "below her", she just assumes he wouldn't even think he could reach that "high." but it is more than that. We'll see what she does with this new self awareness.

She is looking for a husband for Harriet more practically than romantically. A woman with no family and no  money is in a pickle if she doesn't marry. The few occupations open to "gentlewomen" (teacher and governess) would not fit Harriet well. She would spend her life perhaps in the orphanage. And "marrying well" is important economically as well as socially. the more money and status her husband has, the smoother her life.

We'll see that in the next chapter with Jane Fairfax, a gentlewoman with no money who is training to be a governess.

Emma sees herself, because provided for financially and socially by her father, as above these considerations, hence above looking for a suitor. But poor Harriet is in the soup. She's run out of suitors.

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #147 on: March 09, 2015, 06:36:08 PM »
BARB: doesn't the fact that she's more worried about Harriet than her own embarrassment and fully takes responsibility for how much damage she has done (well almost. she still thinks refusing Martin was a good idea) soften you a little bit towards her?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #148 on: March 09, 2015, 07:15:48 PM »
OH JoanK I am soft for her - in fact I am not sure I see her as meddling at all - I think she was doing what was normal in small tight knit communities - and regardless that Harriet needs to marry well, I suspect like all young girls/woman she wants a Lochinvar, a Lancelot, a prince charming who will seep into her heart regardless how acceptable to others. Her heart has to be pining for tender love as well as, for a roof over her head and decent food in her mouth and that is the aspect of Emma that I think she has not tapped - I think Emma is practical, caring, loyal and doing the best she knows how to care for her friend just as she does the best she knows how to care for her father and in fact all her relationships are based on providing a caring relationship - she banters with Mr. Knightly but under it she is a self-contained caring advisory.

I am seeing this story less about her meddling and more about the awakening of Emma - I think what we see as meddling was normal practice and she actually elevated matchmaking into a caring act of kindness - and it is that very kindness where she is missing what others want and has not identified yet in herself - they want their heart's yearning to matter - and I wonder if this is part of why Jane Austen did not marry - yes, she had the responsibility for her mother and for a time her entire family that could easily be seen as the reason she never married however, I wonder if she was pining for a love that would fill her heart and opportunity was never present.    
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

marcie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #149 on: March 09, 2015, 09:32:27 PM »
I do think that Emma meant to be kind in her matchmaking between Harriet and Mr. Elton but it wasn't a completely altruistic act. She thinks she is good at matchmaking and there seems to me to be a lot of self-centeredness in her taking on this task and her approach. She is young and inexperienced and used to being the center of the universe of her family and most friends. So I don't see it so much as a character flaw as an immaturity and overconfidence on her part.

I think there is quite a bit that Austen portrays about human nature in the microcosm of a small community. Barbara, I think those are interesting comparisons with Proust's limited "world" and that of Clint Eastwood when he was lost at sea in the "boat" film.

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #150 on: March 09, 2015, 10:07:16 PM »
Barb,
Quote
I think Emma is practical, caring, loyal and doing the best she knows how to care for her friend just as she does the best she knows how to care for her father and in fact all her relationships are based on providing a caring relationship - she banters with Mr. Knightly but under it she is a self-contained caring advisory.

I so agree with you here.  I think you just can't be too harsh on Emma.  You have to take into account what tools she has in her tool kit to work with.  And, you can not forget her lack of experience and knowledge in love.  I suspect as Barb mentioned, I see Emma learning, and maturing, coming into her own realization of what love really does entail.  

Emma says she will never marry without love, yet what does love even mean to her?  She expects to be doted on, because that is all she has known.  Mr. Knightley, challenges her, gives her substance, makes her think outside her circle of safe knit family members, who do adore her.  She obviously loves his challenges, because she engages each time.

Hmmmm....seems our dear Mr. George Knightley does not like how Emma has so much excitement for Frank Churchill to come for a visit.  Could it be Mr. Knightley is a bit jealous?  He just gets himself all twisted in a knot listening to Emma sing Frank's praises.    
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #151 on: March 09, 2015, 10:35:19 PM »
A lot here.

BARB: "I am seeing this story less about her meddling and more about the awakening of Emma."

BWLLAMARIE: "I see Emma learning, and maturing, coming into her own realization of what love really does entail."

MARCIE: "I don't see it so much as a character flaw as an immaturity and overconfidence on her part."

I agree. And we'll see in what follows that Emma still has a long way to go (to grow).



JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #152 on: March 09, 2015, 10:39:41 PM »
BELLAMARIE: " Could it be Mr. Knightley is a bit jealous?"

the long-awaited Frank Churchill shows up in the next section. We'll see how that stirs the pot!

Is there anyone who hasn't finished this section, yet? Did you find the last one too long? What do you think? I'm looking for a happy medium. The first section was 50 of my pages, the second 75. But I have a lot of pictures. How long are they in your book?

Jonathan

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #153 on: March 09, 2015, 10:51:48 PM »
'Being ahead of everyone else would be a first for me, I'm a slow reader.' Ella, that is a wonderful reccomendation for a very unusual book.

Barb, you come very close to convincing me that Emma is a saint. Blessed are the matchmakers.... Ella wants for Harriet what her sister Isabella has with her London lawyer and five kids: 'passing her life with those she doted on, full of their merits, blind to their faults, and always innocently busy, might have been a model of right feminine happiness.' (ch 17)  I can't understand her father's 'lamentations over the destiny of poor Isabella.' in the same paragraph.

Seeing Robert Marten as Harriet's Lancelot is a wonderful idea. But I'm still wondering why, according to Harriet, we were told, or Emma was informed, that Marten was reading The Vicar of Wakefield Is Marten trying to understand Mr. Elton, the vicar of Highbury. Strange man that.  Why can't Emma believe Mr. Knightley when he tells her that the vicar is looking for a girl with twenty thousand pounds?

Perhaps this is a spoof. I have the feeling at times that we're getting more than a little irony, satire and mockery. But I've missed too much. I'm going back to the beginning.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #154 on: March 09, 2015, 11:35:20 PM »
Ah Jonathan, The Vicar of Wakefield isn't that about a Mr. Burchell, who is in reality the worthy Sir William Thornhill - I wonder if Mr. Marten is seeing himself as if hidden behind the disguise of a farmer but in reality thinks of himself as being like Olivia's father, an honest, generous man, with a homely philosophy as well as, the hero Sir William Thornhill who will rescue his Olivia after the house burns to the ground and after the father/Vicar lost all his money, and the Olivia of his dreams is Harriet whose house may not have burned but she is certainly in lessor circumstances. 

I am wondering if part of our problem seeing Emma as a worthwhile matchmaker is we are more used to thinking of matchmakers as old and wise like the matchmaker in Fiddler on the Roof and here Emma is a sprightly young thing without the wisdom of years in her satchel.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Halcyon

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #155 on: March 10, 2015, 07:43:58 AM »
Perhaps 100 pages next.  That doesn't seem too long but what does everyone else think.  All your comments are very interesting as I seem to be having difficulty looking below the surface.

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #156 on: March 10, 2015, 10:45:11 AM »
Oh heavens, please not 100 pages.  75 was a bit much for me.  I like to take my time reading, although I take notes and go back a few times to make sure I did not miss something.

Some how I completely missed this mention of The Vicar of Wakefield.  Jonathan where ever did you see this, can you list the page # please?

Ah ha!  So this is where you came up with the comment of burning down the house.  Mr. Woodhouse is always lamenting over some "poor" person.  It's his nature to see things from the "poor" point of view, as in his health.  I don't take too much he says with a grain of salt.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #157 on: March 10, 2015, 03:17:49 PM »
Mr. Woodhouse keeps lamenting the miserable state of anyone who marries. I think he's scared to death that Emma will marry and leave him. He's too selfish to put her needs before his.

How about the rest of you as to length?

Jonathan

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #158 on: March 10, 2015, 04:29:07 PM »
Is there more below the surface? I'm sure Jane Austen would smile at the thought.

As for burning down the house - it is a wooden house and the occupant is playing with matches

There may be more to Mr. Woodhouse than his lamentations. At least I was beginning to think so. But of course, he's afraid of losing the daughter who is taking such good care of him.

I've always meant to read The Vicar Off Wakefield It's mentioned a page or two into Chapter 4, Bella. Emma suggests that Mr. Martin reads nothing more than agricultural reports and Harriet replys that he has read the Goldsmith book, a bestseller then. He has also read Elegant Extracts, which sounds like an anthology of literary pieces. He obviously wants to improve his mind. That's more than Emma aspires to. She's more or less dropped her painting and music, and reads very little we're told. Usually just the first chapter or two.

I'll go to any lengths to find out how this all ends, as soon as possible. Only kidding. I want it to last forever. I had no idea village life could be so entertaining.

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #159 on: March 10, 2015, 04:34:15 PM »
 ;D