Author Topic: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online  (Read 61607 times)

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #320 on: March 27, 2015, 07:27:15 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

March/April Book Club Online

Emma
by Jane Austen


"I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like”  Jane Austen of Emma.


Will you like her, the heroine who Austen claimed was most like herself, and who inspired a movie called "Clueless"? If not, there's lots more to like in this classic novel of love, misdirection, and social class.
Schedule

March 1-5  Part I:  Chapters 1-7
March 6 - 12 Part I:  Chapters 8-17
March 13  Part I:  Chapter 18, Part II Chapter 1-6
March 19  Part II: Chapter 7-13  
March 23  Part II: Chapters 14-18 Part III Chapters 1-4
March 27  Part III: Chapter 5-9
March 30  Part III: Chapter 10-end

QUESTIONS VOLUME II CHAPTERS 7-13

1. Does the fact that frank Churchill goes to London to get his hair cut change your opinion of him? Why or why not?

2. Why does Emma not want to go to the Coles? Do such class distinctions exist where you live? What is their basis? Why did her opinion of the Coles change when she got there?

3. Did Emma do wrong when she shared her suspicions of Jane Fairfax with Frank? What do you think of his efforts to tease Jane about them in chapter X?

4. Who do you think the piano came from? What do Jane's reactions while people are talking about it tell you?

5. Is Emma falling in love with Frank Churchill? Is it possible not to know if you're in love or not?

6. "A mind lively and at ease, can do with seeing nothing, and can see nothing that does not answer." Do you agree?

7. Harriet, tempted by everything and swayed by half a word, was always very long at a purchase." Have you ever gone shopping with a friend like that? How did it work out?










Discussion Leader: JoanK


  

All through dinner my hubby had to sit and listen to me yammer on and on.  I told him I feel like Miss Bates, not only not being able to stop talking, but feeling the sting of Emma.    :(

She has a ton of mea culpas, to say!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #321 on: March 28, 2015, 11:07:29 AM »
For people like me who are a bit curious of Box Hill I found this link with some pictures of it.

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/box-hill/



It truly looks like an amazing place to just spend the day taking in the beauty of it all.  Too bad the behavior of some did not match up with the beauty of the place.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #322 on: March 28, 2015, 11:12:22 AM »
I especially like this picture, it looks so much like what we can imagine the characters in Emma to look like here.
http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/wra-1356328121950/view-page/item424363/

From books....
Box Hill has a long history of being popular with creative society and has inspired some classic writings. John Keats, Daniel Defoe, George Meredith and Robert Louis Stevenson were all visitors. J.M. Barrie used to sit at the bottom of the same slope, getting inspiration for his classic book Peter Pan.

In Jane Austen's book Emma, the famous picnic scene was set on the Burford Spur. ‘Emma had never been to Box Hill; she wished to see what everybody found so well worth seeing.’


The Burford Spur remains the same, our visitors look a little different


“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #323 on: March 28, 2015, 11:47:50 AM »
Thanks for the pictures, Bellamarie.  Box Hill is certainly lovely.  It's too bad the characters' behavior doesn't match.  They are all either tired, cross, rude, out of sorts, at odds with one another.  Beauty certainly isn't soothing them.

pedln

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #324 on: March 28, 2015, 12:14:58 PM »
Thanks for the Box Hill site, Bellamarie.  I have not yet arrived there in Emma, still running a bit behind, but am enjoying the glimpses into small town life in that period of time.  Shades of Gopher Prairie. (S Lewis) I don't remember the name of Mrs. Elton's counterpart there, but the title just jumped out at me.  Mrs Elton is a pretty obnoxious woman but I wonder if part of it is insecurity at having left all that was near and dear to her.  Maple Grove was her world and now she's left it.  And when we're uprooted we tend to overlook the flaws of what we left.  Years ago, when I was planning to move to CapeG some friends of mine said, "We knew people from CapeG when we were in the Army.  The worst thing that ever happened to them was having to leave CapeG."


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #325 on: March 28, 2015, 12:38:07 PM »
ewww photos - great Bellamarie - I love being a bit high on a bluff with a vista spread out so that to look at the horizon you realize your seeing the curvature of the earth.

Google mapped BoxHill - included are 61 additional photos - I recognized the names on the map of some villages and towns that we hear about when reading many stories by British authors, not just the Jane Austen stories. Looks like it is an easy joint from London. The background info says that there were several authors who would regularly visit the area including J. M Barrie, who was a regular visitor when he was writing Peter Pan.

It appears Jane's crew in Emma are happier with short house visits to each other or dancing away in someone's home where as an excursion is too much since it seems to bring out their 'itches' - ah so... they would not blame it on the outing I am sure. Maybe not being in control of the wind, sun, grasses and trees as they are when in their homes and the village?!?  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #326 on: March 28, 2015, 01:50:05 PM »
Bellamarie: yes, I hope at the end, we'll go back and look at some of these earlier scenes. They read quite differently the second time. Right now, are you all at the strawberry gathering and picnic on Box Hill?

I'm going to root on MY basketball team (the Maryland women).

PatH

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #327 on: March 28, 2015, 01:52:37 PM »
The malaise started the day before, with the strawberry party.  Everyone blamed the heat.

I was highly amused at Mrs. Elton's attempts to take over running the strawberry party.  Mr. Knightly wasn't having any, and didn't let her get away with much.

Halcyon

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #328 on: March 28, 2015, 03:35:24 PM »
Could someone clarify Perry's position?  Is he a physician, druggist or herbalist?  It seems he is always busy treating people but doesn't have enough money for a carriage. Emma certainly did not want to explain the "private joke" with the alphabet letters to Mr. Knghtely. She does have a conscience and seems to get caught up in Frank's silliness.

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #329 on: March 28, 2015, 05:32:13 PM »
My understanding is Perry is the town Physician. 

I have some thoughts on the behavior of Emma and Frank at Box Hill.  Will be back in a bit, have to run to my grandson's basketball game. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #330 on: March 28, 2015, 08:14:30 PM »
Mr. Perry is an apothecary.  It was common at this time for apothecaries also to be the source for medical advice, and many of them also had additional training, such as being surgeons.  Highbury is probably too small to support a physician.

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #331 on: March 28, 2015, 08:18:11 PM »
Before getting into the Box Hill picnic, I would like to discuss the alfresco party at Mr. Knightley's Abbey.  Mrs. Elton was determined to try to take control immediately, but Mr. Knightley very courteously, refused her help and managed his invites and planning with this statement:

"And, by the bye, can I or my housekeeper be of any use to you with our opinion?  Pray be sincere, Knightley.  If you wish me to talk to Mrs. Hodges, or to inspect anything__"

"I have not the least wish for it, thank you."

"Well_but if any difficulties should arise, my housekeeper is extremely clever."

"I will answer for it that mine thinks herself full as clever, and would spurn anybody's assistance."


Mr. Knightley knew exactly who he wanted to invite, and how he wanted the party to go.  What did surprise me, Mr. Weston was not invited, he seemed to invite himself, and his son Frank as well.

Mr. Weston, unasked, promised to get Frank over to join them, if possible; a proof of approbation and gratitude which could have been dispensed with.  Mr. Knightley was then obliged to say that he should be glad to see him; and Mr. Weston engaged to lose no time in writing, and spare no arguments to induce him to come.

Frank comes late, and seems to have run into Jane leaving.  Frank is in a foul mood, complaining about the heat, being tired of doing nothing and wants to travel abroad.  

Emma then tells Frank about them going to Box Hill, and asks if he will come, he first refuses saying if he comes he shall be cross, but then changes his mind, because he does not want to be in Richmond, thinking of all them in Box Hill.

So, what has gotten Frank so cross?  Did he and Jane exchange words when he saw her leaving?  Jane is not at all happy that Mrs. Elton had gotten her a governess job, behind her back.  Is Frank upset from something Jane has told him?  A lot seems to be going on with Frank and Jane, that we just are not getting to know yet.

Emma was so enjoying the Abbey, the outside, the party, the entire day before Jane decides to slip off, and leave on her own, and Frank show up so cross.  This all seems to be leading right into the next day at Box Hill.

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #332 on: March 28, 2015, 08:34:49 PM »
Thank you PatH.,  I was not sure exactly what Perry was, it just seemed he was called for advice of one's health issues.

file:///C:/Users/Marie/Downloads/emma_text_notes.shtml

apothecary
A medical man; didn't have a university degree (in which case would be known as a physician); probably in modern terms would be like a pharmacist who visited patients and prescribed medicine for them.

Another interesting thing I found is this:

Knightley
For Mrs Elton to call a gentleman by his surname only, without the prefix of 'Mr' or whatever his title might be, implies that she is either related to him or knows him extremely well, otherwise it would be considered very bad manners. Even Emma, who is related to him by the marriage of her sister to his brother, would not presume to do this.

This explains why Emma was so agitated, with Mrs. Elton using "Knightley."

confusion of rank
Generally families of different social levels did not socialise together, and Emma and her set would disapprove of anyone 'beneath' them socially being invited to a gathering such as a dance or ball. It sounds snobbish to our modern ears but was a perfectly normal attitude at this time.

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #333 on: March 28, 2015, 09:05:25 PM »
confusion of rank
Generally families of different social levels did not socialise together, and Emma and her set would disapprove of anyone 'beneath' them socially being invited to a gathering such as a dance or ball. It sounds snobbish to our modern ears but was a perfectly normal attitude at this time.
This points out one of the barriers to enjoying Emma today.  The characters do seem snobbish to us some of the time,  and also we miss things, such as why it's so bad for Mrs. Elton to say "Knightley" rather than "Mr. Knightley".  They are all trying to get the best life they can in this rigid set of rules they live in, and some of them are using its subtleties to their advantage.  We, as amateurs, have to work hard to see what's going on.

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #334 on: March 28, 2015, 09:52:13 PM »
I thought it was very improper for Mrs. Elton to call her husband Mr. E., and to use Knightley, when she barely knows him.  This is why Emma was so upset with her.  It is a bit of a presumption on Mrs. Elton, to begin using names such as these.  I took it as her trying to insinuate, she is closer to Mr. Knightley than she is, and in using these names, it is like she is making others feel she has some special status.

Yes, PatH., I agree, some are taken liberties, and showing rudeness.  In these chapters especially, you see the characters dividing off into groups on the walk at Box Hill.  Frank, Harriet and Emma are a group, Mr. and Mrs. Elliot refuse to join the others, and Mrs. Weston is trying to no avail to get everyone together.  So, by the time they all sit down at the table, the mood has already been set for things to transpire.

Is everyone finally getting on each other's nerves?  Have they spent too much time together?  You have a restless Frank, an irritated Jane, an obnoxious Mrs. Elton, Emma is not liking Mrs. Elton, and not understanding Frank's moodiness, and of course Mr. Knightley the observer of all. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #335 on: March 29, 2015, 12:31:04 AM »
An aside - (A medical man; didn't have a university degree (in which case would be known as a physician); probably in modern terms would be like a pharmacist who visited patients and prescribed medicine for them.) It is easy for us to think of a pharmacist as we see them here in the States where as my experience in Europe has been they are more like our nurse practitioners - they even dispense meds like mycen and penicillin or heart meds and high blood pressure meds without a doctor's prescription or even a visit to a doctor.

Yes, Jane Austen skillfully slides the story into the day on Box Hill doesn't she - interesting as I became aware of my own personal experience with an Emma like friend, sure enough if the last few days that had us being together did not turn into a lot of looks and rude actions that could probably clear the air if we had a Box Hill but that is for novels - it is amazing to see all this once my eyes were opened - folks jockeying for more esteem and attention. wow...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #336 on: March 29, 2015, 01:09:15 AM »
My book comes with the summation by the editor that it contains 'The happiest of love stories, the most fiendishly difficult of detective stories and a matchless repository of English wit.'

Aside from the Elton's could someone point out one other 'happy' love story among the younger crowd. Poor Harriet is into her fourth love affair and none has made her happy. After throwing several mementos of Mr Elton's love into the fire she exclaims: 'There is an end, thank Heaven! of Mr Elton. I shall never marry.'

Turn the page, and Emma is told by Harriet '...when I saw him coming -his noble look -  and my wretchedness before. Such a change! In one moment such a change!  From perfect misery to perfect happiness.'

The wheels start turning in Emma's 'imaginist' mind. She's certain Henrietta is talking about Frank Churchill rescuing her from the gipsies. And thinks not at all of the lonely Henrietta being asked to dance by Mr. Knightley. How thrilled Henrietta had been at that moment.

Where do we go from here? The sophisticated Mrs Elton  is certainly misunderstood by even the intelligent people in Highbury.

Who has ever heard of 'the happiness of frightful news'? All the youth and servants in the place when they heard about Harriet being molested by the gipsies. Emma is convinced that Harriet's fortune has been 'made' by the gipsies, by giving Frank an opportunity to rescue her.

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #337 on: March 29, 2015, 06:48:22 AM »
Jonathan,
Quote
Aside from the Elton's could someone point out one other 'happy' love story among the younger crowd.

Mr. And Mrs. Weston seem very happy newlyweds, and Isabella and John Knightley have a happy marriage blessed with children.

Hmmm...there is not much to misunderstand about Mrs. Elton.  She is pretty much an open book.  She likes to brag, is a social climber, demands attention, wants to control everyone's life, and seems a bit over the top with her caro sponsor.  I'm still trying to figure out why Mrs. Elton married Mr. Elton, with knowing him for so little time.  There is no hint they knew each other, before Mr. Elton went off a wounded hearted man, due to Emma's refusal of his advances.

Jonathan, You make an interesting comment about Emma's "imaginist" mind," I too thought Harriet was speaking of Frank.  Why at this time, would we even suspect Harriet is talking about Mr. Knightley, unless her mind has been altered by the gipsies?  I would not consider Harriet into her fourth "love affair" at this point she had feelings for Mr. Martin, and Mr. Elton.  Did I miss something?  What in this era is even considered a "love affair?"  Up to this point there has been no physical contact, so much as even a hand held where Harriet is concerned.  One dance with Mr. Knightley, does not qualify as a love affair even stretching the imagination to it's fullest, and Emma and I have a very vivid imagination.   :o  
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #338 on: March 29, 2015, 03:22:21 PM »
At the time, due to the strict rules as to how men and women could interact (an unmarried man and woman couldn't even be alone together, for any length of time) couples often must have married after only a limited acquaintance. In Austen's own "romance", people expected him to "offer" after such a brief encounter.

The whole scene in this section is very skillfully done. Austen is moving her characters around very carefully. And trust Austen to have a happy ending for everyone, even though it doesn't look like it at the minute.

Poor Jane, going off to a job she dreads. Harriet in love again. Frank should be happy -- he doesn't have to dance attendance on Mrs. Churchill and can marry penniless Harriet if he wishes. But instead, he's cross as a bear.

At some point, they play a word game with what looks like scrabble tiles. The game is not explained and is confusing (to me, anyway. It seems to consist of making a word and asking someone to guess what other word you're thinking of.             

PatH

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #339 on: March 29, 2015, 04:43:43 PM »
I think the game is like anagrams.  You give someone the mixed-up letters of the word you're thinking of, and they have to move them around to get the word.

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #340 on: March 29, 2015, 05:01:36 PM »
JoanK., Yes, you are quite right, about the proposals were expected to come quickly.  But, because Mr. Elton was so recently professing his love to Emma, and was rejected, it seemed a bit odd, he should go off and come back with a wife, just a short time afterwards.  I can't imagine someone falling in, and out of love, so quickly.  These statements made at the dinner table, at Box Hill between Frank, Emma, and Jane, seemed to me, Austen giving us some insight to others possibly questioning the sudden marriage as well.

Mr. and Mrs. Elton decline to play the letter game, she says they played it at Christmas time and did not like it then,  They get up to leave:

"Happy couple!"  said Frank Churchill, as soon as they were out of hearing; "how well they suit one another!  Very lucky__marrying as they did upon an acquaintance formed only in a public place!  They only knew each other, I think a few weeks in Bath!  Peculiarly lucky!  For as to any real knowledge of a person's disposition that Bath, or any public place, can give__it is all nothing; there can be no knowledge.  It is only by seeing women in their own homes, among their own set, just as they always are, that you can form any judgement.  Short of that, it is all guess, and luck__ and acquaintance, and rued it all the rest of his life!"

Miss Fairfax, who had seldom spoken before, except among her own confederates, spoke now.

"Such things do occur, undoubtedly,"  She was stopped by a cough.  Frank Churchill turned towards her to listen.

"You were speaking,"  said he gravely.  She recovered her voice.

"I was only going to observe, that though such unfortunate circumstances do sometimes occur both to men and women, I cannot imagine them to be very frequent.  A hasty and imprudent attachment may arise__ but there is generally time to recover from it afterwards.  I would be understood to mean, that it can be only weak, irresolute characters (whose happiness must be always at the mercy of chance), who will suffer an unfortunate acquaintance to be an inconvenience, an oppression for ever."

He made no answer, merely looked, and bowed in submission; and soon afterwards said, in a lively tone:

"Well, I have so little confidence in my own judgement that whenever I marry, I hope somebody will choose my wife for me?  Will you?"  (turning to Emma). "Will you choose a wife for me?  I am sure I should like anybody fixed on by you.   You provide for the family, you know"  (with a smile at his father).   "Find somebody for me.  I am in no hurry.  Adopt her, educate her."

"And make her like myself."

"By all means, if you can."

"Very well, I undertake the commission.  You shall have a wife."

"She must be very lively and have hazel eyes.  I care for nothing else.  I shall go abroad for a couple of years__and when I return, I shall come to you for my wife.  Remember."

Emma was in no danger of forgetting.  It was a commission to touch every favorite feeling.  Would not Harriett be the very creature described?  Hazel eyes excepted, two years more might make her all that he wished.  He might even have Harriet in his thoughts at the moment; who could say?  Referring the education to her seemed to imply it.


So what did you all take from this?  The letter game seemed a bit juvenile.  Why did Mr. Weston say M and A is perfection? Mrs. Elton mentioned she had an acrostic of her name before, and was not pleased with it.  It came from an "abominable puppy"and Mr. Elton knew who that was.  What ever did she mean?  Who else did not like Mrs. Elton, before she came to Highbury?

This entire dinner party, and day at Box Hill, has turned into a day of undertones of secrets, and outspoken rudeness.

Mr. Knightley is so horribly disappointed in Emma's behaviour.  I am appalled that she played along with Frank's flirtatiousness, and rudeness.  Why did Frank decide to just act so ill mannered?  What did Jane mean when she commented to Frank, about the whole marrying, and happiness being left to chance?  I felt the two of them were discussing what ever secrets they have among each other here.  Why does Frank have so little confidence, in himself, to choose a wife?  Has he asked Jane before, and was rejected by her?

Are Emma's tears in the carriage ride home from regret for being unthoughtful of Miss Bates, or shame because of Mr. Knightley being so upset with her?  I know I have more questions than answers in these last chapters.  It might be a good idea, they all take a time out from each other.

  
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #341 on: March 29, 2015, 05:59:28 PM »
From the link I provided earlier:

puppyism
The behaviour of immature young men who ought to know better.

When Mrs. Elton says "abominable puppy," makes me wonder who she was referring to, and what acrostic did this person make of her name, that she was not pleased with? 

acrostic
Word puzzle where the first letter or word of each line when read vertically spells out another word or sentence.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Halcyon

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #342 on: March 29, 2015, 08:49:45 PM »
Arrogant
Upstart
Garish
Underhanded
Self-centered
Talkative
Affected

Jonathan

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #343 on: March 29, 2015, 11:08:30 PM »
Poor Augusta. She does come on too strong. To Highburyites she must seem like one from a different world. Will she ever fit in? Or will Mr Elton look for another parish? Perhaps in Bath.

'One dance with Mr. Knightley, does not qualify as a love affair even stretching the imagination to it's fullest.' Imagination had nothing to do with it, Bellamarie. When Harriet was asked to dance by Mr. Knightley, after being snubbed by Mr Elton, she went from 'perfect misery to perfect happiness.' And Emma watched them dance, wondering at what a fine dancer Mr. Knightley was.

And Mr. Knightley is watching Frank Churchill. Suspects Frank of trifling with Jane Fairfax, and sees 'symptoms of intelligence between them.'

Sure enough. Frank wants to send Jane a message and proposes the 'alphabet' game. He's got himself into a fix by mentioning Mr Perry and his plan to acquire a carriage. If we follow the clues we realize he got the information from Jane in a letter, confidentially. He wants to say he's sorry. So he passes her a handful of letters which are soon made out to spell 'blunder'. Jane pushes them away. Harriet, with Mr. Knightley's help also see the message, but can't make any sense of it. Mr Knightley 'connected it with the dream; but how it could all be, was beyond his comprehension.' The dream was Frank's way of explaining his information.

There are enough 'clues' in this book for six novels. There's simply no way of knowing how this will end. And knowing how it ends  only leaves one with a sense of wonder. As Pat says: it takes four reads, Each one more enjoyable than the one before.

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #344 on: March 29, 2015, 11:52:55 PM »
Jonathan, Yes, I caught all of that.  Especially when he keeps trying to blame Mrs. Elton for being the one who says things, which she clearly denies. So he tries to convince her she did, and then fabricates the dream.  He is trying to hide the fact, Jane is the one feeding him information.  B L U N D E R indeed!

I woke up today at 5:00 a.m. and watched the sunrise, and had to be at my son's parish for 9:30 Mass, and they are 30 minutes away, then after Mass, we had to babysit the grandkids til 2:00, got home was exhausted, and was trying to find that part in the book where he spells blunder, and wouldn't you know I was just too tired to find it.  Thank you Jonathan, because I was beginning to think I may have dreamt it like Frank.   ???

Gosh, I sure hope Harriet has not gone and gotten a crush on Mr. Knightley.  That poor girl needs to go back to liking Mr. Martin, and call it a day. 

Oh please don't tell me, it would take me four reads to catch everything.  I am so excited to get to the end, to see how all these puzzles pieces fit.  To think, there will be missing pieces could give me a fright!

It's so funny how I was frustrated in the beginning with Mr. Knightley, seeming to think he had the right to oversee Emma's every move.  But, now I clearly see, he is a man of good insight, and he misses nothing.  He clearly is watching out for Emma.  She is young, naive, and is being taken in by Frank's attention, and friendship. 

Halycon,  I love your acrostic of Augusta.  Makes me wonder what "abominable puppy" made with her name.  And who is this person?

Are we ready to move on to some more chapters JoanK.?  Have PatH.'s children, and grandchildren left yet, or are you still having tons of fun with all your company?  I don't want to rush anyone.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #345 on: March 30, 2015, 03:29:34 PM »
HALCYON: I love your anagram! Perfect. You are now appointed our games mistress!

What do we think of Emma now that she has been so rude to poor Miss Bates? Is she forgiven because she is so sorry afterwards?

And what on earth is going on with the undercurrents at Mr. Knightley's and Box Hill?

Okay, enough suspense! Let's finish the book and all will be revealed. Start reading the end now.

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #346 on: March 30, 2015, 03:50:00 PM »
Oh my I am so excited, just saw we can read to the end! 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #347 on: March 31, 2015, 10:16:07 AM »
I have finished the book, and my oh my, Austen did not disappoint me in any way!  

I have to admit all the bread crumbs that were being dropped in here, and in the book, did NOT prepare me for the revelation of Jane and Frank.  Yes, I knew they had a secret, but I suspected Frank was in love with Jane, but she was in love with Colonel Campbell.  But then, that was the ruse, the two of them set us up to think.  

We all knew Jane was reserved and secretive, running off to the post office every day.  I had NO idea it was Frank, she couldn't wait to hear from, even though he made a couple of "blunders" in saying Mrs. Weston had told Miss Bates they would come for a visit, and also when he said Mrs. Weston, had wrote to him about Mr. Perry's carriage.  Mrs. Weston was horrified, she knew she never did either of these things, and so Frank says he may have dreamt it.  At this point, I was convinced Jane was writing to Frank, but still never suspected she was in love with him.  Not until the the alfresco party when Frank was so cross, and the Box Hill dinner, did I begin to wonder if Jane had feelings for Frank, when he was so flirtatious with Emma.  Nothing makes a man more cross than a lover's quarrel.  Heat indeed....and it was NOT the weather heat, he was feeling, more so it was the heat Jane just spurned him with.

I, like Emma, was in total shock learning Harriet's admission of her feelings toward Mr. Knightley.  Jonathan, I thought you were so off base with Emma's "imaginist mind".  She did not suspect that whatsoever.  She was too busy, reveling in her own joy from dancing with Mr. Knightley, that very night.  But, then Austen did drop the clue, as you caught about Harriet saying, "when I saw him coming -his noble look -  and my wretchedness before. Such a change! In one moment such a change!  From perfect misery to perfect happiness.'  I was too busy being happy for Emma, finally dancing with Mr. Knightley, I overlooked Harriet's glow.  

PatH., Early on you had made a comment about Emma needs to be careful about her teaching and grooming Harriet, she may not like what she creates.  Oh, so true!  Emma was trying so hard to rise Harriet above her illegitimate birth, and having no knowledge of her real parents.  While attempting to help, she did in fact create a bit of an overconfident Harriet .  Thank heaven, Mr. Martin had a strong enough love for Harriet, he was willing to wait for her to come to her senses.

I have so much to say about Emma and Mr. Knightley.  From the introduction of these two characters I felt they belonged together.   It was true Austen style!  I remember in one of our posts, we were wondering at what point in time could Mr. Knightley go from being a protective big brother to Emma, and possibly, begin having more intimate feelings for her.  I recall mentioning Gone With the Wind and even Alice In Wonderland, where the older man, does indeed find himself having feelings for the much younger girl.  It was common back in those eras I suppose, even though for us twenty first century folks, it seems inappropriate.

I need to go back over these chapters, because they were so over packed with emotions, revelations, and puzzle pieces falling into place, I was a bit overwhelmed.  I do love how Austen clarified so many things, I suspected throughout the book.  It's one thing to "think" you see what is so, but it is entirely different, to read how the author enlightens us to all her secrets and clues along the way.

 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #348 on: March 31, 2015, 10:50:18 AM »
I have loved so much reading your posts Bellamarie with your reactions to the characters in this story - it was for me as much fun reading of your reactions as reading the story - probably for some reason I felt at arms length reading this one and had a difficult time taking on the mantel of these characters that felt like a tempest in a tea cup with their geographically contained life. However, I did see so many reactions among the characters that I still see played out today in larger venues.

As usual Jane Austen says it all with grace and a flowing language that makes reading some books today a chore.

Back later, I've been involved with my best friend's care and concern for her children - scary stuff - fell last week at home and only after her daughter attempted to reach her for a few hours that a neighbor was called to go over and my friend had been found in a pool of blood where she hit her head in her fall - other problems so that ICU was her home for a week and now another closely watched room with all likelihood of at least a temporary nursing facility that she is NOT looking forward to - family saying you must is not helping ah so... Hope I can calm everyone so that this could be a time of revisiting happy memories and reminding my friend of her care for her deceased husband and now she needs that kind of care and whom does she think could provide that kind of full time care... My friend just turned 96 last week... we shall see what we shall see. Emma's caring for her father is such a happy thought as compared to this reality.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #349 on: March 31, 2015, 11:33:13 AM »
Barb, Thank you for your kind words.  I feel like I was so into Emma's character, I became her!  Imagine that.   ::)   ::)

I am so very sorry to hear this news of your friend.  I pray she heals quickly, and is able to deal with whatever comes her way.  She is truly blessed to have a loving, caring friend as you in her difficult times.

Please come back if you can find the time, your insights are so very enlightening, and there is so much to discuss in these last chapters. 


“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #350 on: March 31, 2015, 02:22:19 PM »
BARB: I'm so sorry to hear about your friend. I will keep her and you in my thoughts.

Thinking it over, maybe it was too much of a gulp reading the end all at once. I was tempted to stop you at the end of chapter 13, but then I thought that would be too much like torture!!! And it would be too hard to keep from reading on.

I hope the rest of you will post your reactions as you read. One surprise after another!

By the way: props to Bellamarie. You had everything pegged right at one point; then Austen managed to confuse you.

JoanK

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #351 on: March 31, 2015, 02:26:07 PM »
Let's take one revelation after another. First, Frank's behavior explained. Now that you know what was going on with him, does it change your opinion of Frank? How would you describe Frank's character?

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #352 on: March 31, 2015, 03:11:23 PM »
JoanK.,  I just never saw Jane in love with Frank, until the alfresco party, and Box Hill.  They did a great job in their keeping it a secret up to that point.  Especially the part about the pianoforte.  Frank had given it to her all along.  He was shameful in leading Emma to think it was Colonel Campbell.  He must have been having a lot of fun, knowing how much he was playing with Emma.  She was so gullible, and made it easy for him.   :)

I was very much disappointed with Frank after learning the whole scheme.  I always saw him as a brother figure to Emma, he was fun, he allowed her to be herself around him, she could say anything, and he would not judge her.  Everyone needs a friend like that.  

But.....I think he also used her, and because of that I think he went too far with the flirting, saying negative things about Jane to Emma, and not just confiding in Emma, once they formed such a close friendship.  I know he almost came clean with Emma, when they got interrupted, and Emma actually was glad they got interrupted, because she thought he might profess his love for her.  So, because he had thought about being honest, I was willing to forgive him.

To be honest I was angry with how he treated Emma, Mrs. Weston and Jane, but each of them learning everything still loved him, so I was willing to give him a pass.  I loved how he and Emma, ended with their usual bantering.  I also loved how he knew he had a lifetime, to be the person Jane could help him to be.  Mr. Knightley was even a bit generous in acknowledging this.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Halcyon

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #353 on: March 31, 2015, 04:00:36 PM »
Kudos to Bellamarie.  You had it correct right from the beginning!

I'm amazed at how my feelings have changed about the characters.  I love love love the idea of Mr. Knightley and Emma being together.  (Hope I'm not becoming a romantic.)  I still can't compare him with Rhett Butler.  I don't think Mr. Knightley ever had a Belle Watling in his life.  Also I would never have allowed Mr. Elton to marry me if I was Emma.  At one point I thought Mr. Knightley visited his brother to convince him to move to the family home so Mr. Knightley could live with Emma and Mr. Woodhouse. 

Frank can easily be forgiven since everything turned out right in the end.  He does need to mature a bit and Jane will be a grounding influence.  Mr. Martin was certainly a patient lover.  I wonder if Mr. Knightley had anything to do with that.

Bellamarie I wanted to tell you so many times to read to the end when you were getting upset with the characters.  But it all turned out well!

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #354 on: March 31, 2015, 05:24:32 PM »
Halcyon, 
Quote
Mr. Martin was certainly a patient lover.  I wonder if Mr. Knightley had anything to do with that.

Oh indeed he did,  and he also admitted to talking to Harriet as well, on the walks Emma witnessed them taking.  Mr. Knightley knew that Emma would want Harriet happy, and he also knew Mr. Martin was the one person who would make Harriet happy. 

pg.  584 "How__how has it been possible?"

"It is a simple story.  He went to town on business three days ago, and I got him to take charge of some papers which I was wanting to send to Hon.  He delivered these papers to John, at his chambers, and was asked by him to join their party the same evening to Astley's.  They were going to take the two eldest boys to Astley's.  The party was to be our brother and sister, Henry, John__and Miss Smith.  My friend Robert could not resist.  They called for him in their way; were all extremely amused; and my brother asked him to dine with them the next day, which he did, and in the course of that visit (as I understand) he found an opportunity of speaking to Harriet; and certainly idd not speak in vain.  She made him, by her acceptance as happy even as he is deserving.  He came down by yesterday's coach, and was with me this morning, immediately after breakfast, to report his proceedings, first on my affairs, and then on his own."


Seems while Mr. Knightley was busy chastising Emma for playing matchmaker, he had his own hands into matchmaking, Robert Martin and Harriet Smith.   

Mr. Knightley knew Emma well enough, that if he were to ask her to marry him, he would have to have all his ducks in a row.  He would have to have everything in line with the comforts of her father, family, and her friend.  She would have to know everyone was in a good place, so she could then be happy herself.  He loves her that much, that he knew exactly what to do.
 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #355 on: March 31, 2015, 05:26:04 PM »
One thing to keep in mind when judging Frank Churchill is that secret engagements were considered wrong at that time.  So he has talked Jane into doing something she knows is wrong, and instead of trying to make it easy for her, he teases her, drops hints, and keeps her frantic, worried that the secret will be discovered.

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #356 on: March 31, 2015, 10:49:37 PM »
Yes, PatH., and as Mr. Knightley points out, Jane was wrong in agreeing to it.  When Mr. Knightley reads Frank Churchill's letter, he keeps responding aloud, as if he is speaking with Frank.  He says:

"I perfectly agree with you, sir." was then his remark.  "You did behave very shamefully.  You never wrote a truer line."  And having gone through what immediately followed of the basis of their disagreement, and his persisting to act in direct opposition to Jane Fairfax's send of right, he made a fuller pause to say, "This is very bad.  He had induced her to place herself, for his sake, in a situation of extreme difficulty and uneasiness, and it should have been his first object to prevent her from suffering unnecessarily.  She must have had much more to contend with in carrying on the correspondence than he could.  He should have respected even unreasonable scruples, had there been such; but hers were all reasonable.  We must look to her own fault, and remember that she had done a wrong thing in consenting to the engagement to bear that she should have been in such a state of punishment."

I like how Mr. Knightley finishes with this statement:

"He has had great faults__faults of inconsideration and thoughtlessness; and I am very much of his opinion in thinking him likely to be the happier than he deserves; but still as he is, beyond a doubt, really attached to Miss Fairfax, and will soon, it may be hoped, have the advantage of being constantly with her, I am very ready to believe his character will improve, and acquire from hers the steadiness and delicacy of principle that it wants."

You can just see Mr. Knightley sitting there, being the magistrate, stopping at each confession of Frank's, commenting, and coming to the conclusion, there is hope for Frank Churchill, to be a better person.   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #357 on: April 01, 2015, 09:20:18 AM »
A common theme in Austen's books is the influence (mostly for good) one spouse will have on the other.  Some of her characters really do try to improve themselves.  So we can hope that Frank Churchill will give Jane more peace when they are married.

bellamarie

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #358 on: April 01, 2015, 10:56:03 AM »
I personally like Frank and Emma, with all their flaws.  They are real people, who I can see myself in, and my family and friends.  I think we fall in love with people like them, not in spite of their flaws, but because of who they are with them.  Their intentions are not in any way to hurt anyone maliciously.  They are a bit self-serving at times, but ultimately, they are also trying to bring happiness to others.

Now, Mrs. Elton is quite the opposite.  She did not help her spouse, if anything, I felt she influenced Mr. Elton to be more negative.  I trust Jane Austen came across a Mrs. Elton in her lifetime, and wanted to show how some people never change in her last sentences of this book, at Emma and Mr. Knightley's wedding.

"The wedding was very much like other weddings; where the parties have no taste of finery or parade; and Mrs. Elton. from particulars detailed by her husband, that it all extremely shabby, and very inferior to her own.  "Very little white satin, very few lace veils, a most pitiful business!  Selina would stare when she heard of it."  

But, in spite of these deficiencies, the wishes, the hopes, the confidence, the predictions of the small band of true friends who witnessed the ceremony, were fully answered in the perfect happiness of the union.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online
« Reply #359 on: April 01, 2015, 02:00:06 PM »
Yes, I see Frank as bringing a little fun back into Jane's life after her childhood spent among loving and giving people in recent years she was living back with the Aunt and Grandmother who were not only poor but not fun loving or jolly and were grasping as if whatever they laid their eyes on should be theirs - Hopefully Frank's boyish teasing will help Jane lighten up - she will certainly be in more secure circumstances that hopefully Frank can protect her from what I could see as these grasping women expecting Jane to take care of them in the style they will see she and Frank are living. I do not see Frank as stingy but then I think he needs to protect Jane from herself so that she feels she deserves the life she and Frank can make together. My prescription is they should move away for a couple of years and then when Jane is strong and their marriage is strong and comfortable come back.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe