Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online

[JoanK]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

March/April Book Club Online

Emma
by Jane Austen

"I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like”  Jane Austen of Emma. Will you like her, the heroine who Austen claimed was most like herself, and who inspired a movie called "Clueless"? If not, there's lots more to like in this classic novel of love, misdirection, and social class. Schedule March 1-7       Chapters 1-7 QUESTIONS CHAPTERS 1 TO 7 1. Austen's plots revolve around a flaw in her heroine's character that she must recognize and resolve before she can be happy. What is Emma's flaw? What factors in her position, upbringing, and character contribute to this flaw and her lack of awareness of it? 2. Female friendships are important to Austen's heroines (as they were to her). How does Emma cope with the "loss" of her friend to marriage? Why does she chose to do that? What other choices might she have? What factors limit her choices? 3. Why does Mr. Knightley think the friendship with Harriet is bad for Emma? Do you agree? Is it good or bad for Harriet? 4. What picture does Austen paint of village life and the people in it? Would you have enjoyed living there? Why or why not? 5. What does the scene where Emma and Harriet read Mr. Martin's letter tell us about the character of the three people? how does Austen show us things without telling us?

Text of Emma ~~~ Emma review ~~~ Austen related books ~~~ Jane Austen biography

Discussion Leader:

JoanK

[Ella Gibbons]

I refuse to spell anymore of these words (that will stop you from copying, JK!)

I'm deciding - should I read the Sparknotes or Cliffnotes or just wing it?  To paraphrase the Introduction in my book I could avoid embarrassment by doing so, but I might miss the "endless enjoyment of Emma's irrepresssible sense of fun."

The fun or embarrassment starts tomorrow.  at the moment the weather in London (16 miles from Highbury) is a bit warmer than the midwest of the USA - I think, if I reading it correctly.

[bellamarie]

I'm excited to begin tomorrow, and like Mr. Woodhouse, I too am worried about our weather.  Expecting yet another 3 - 5 inches of snow, with more to come Tues./Wed.  I keep telling myself, "This too shall pass."

I have a basketball game to go to, my granddaughter's 7th grade team is going for the league championship.  My son is her coach, and my hubby is the assistant coach.  Needless to say our entire family is excited to see the outcome.  So, I will check in at some point on our first day with Emma.  I can't miss out on the tea and crumpets!

[PatH]

Ella, I recommend not reading the notes until later.  It's more fun to figure out what you think about it yourself.  No one is going to be embarrassed--there are all sorts of ways to look at a book, and none of them is wrong.

When JoanK and I were leading the discussion of Women in Greek Drama, I had a lot of trouble with the start of Antigone.  It's told in a very roundabout way, full of allusions, use of descriptive words that are only intelligible if you know the history, etc.  I HAD to know it solidly, since I was a leader, and it took me two days to puzzle it all out.  Then I found the Schmoop notes, very slangy and smart-alecky, but they gave a perfect summary of what I had sweated to figure out.  But because I had done it myself, I owned the information in a way I wouldn't have if someone had just told me.

Emma isn't hard like that, especially with JoanK leading us through the outdated word meanings.  All we have to do is to trust our instincts, go by our gut feelings, and argue with each other over what is going on.

[marcie]

I very much enjoy reading Jane Austen and I've seen most of the film adaptations of her books. As PatH said, there is always more to learn from each reading/viewing. I'm a little late but see that we'll be starting the actual discussion of Emma today so I'm happy to join this great group. I look forward to enjoying the book and learning more with you.

[Ella Gibbons]

Hi PAT:  I do agree with you, WILL NOT - NOT - read anything about the book online.  The most difficult discussion I ever led was Dr. Zhivago by Boris Pasternak.   Those Russians almost surpass Austen for introducing characters in their books; after the co-leader left me I did a lot of writing, making notes, used up all my ability to remember anything, have never been the same since, haha.  It's like taking a mini course in literature.

Someday, MARCIE, I'd like to see the film adaptation - did you agree with it?

Someone (later in the book I'm sure) will confront Emma in all her superior manners, her egotistical intrusion in other lives.  Poor Harriet - I hope she turns around and slaps Emma in the face one of these days.  I could never do it,  but I am sure I would be aware of Emma  attempting to influence my life... .. and I think I would be able to tell Emma to stop belittling my boyfriend.  How dare she, what does she know of boyfriends, indeed.

I haven't met one character in the book yet that I would enjoy knowing; they all would be fun to observe at the dinner table though, wouldn't they?

I still must read Chapters 6 and 7.  

[JoanK]

MARCIE: WELCOME WELCOME! I'm so glad you're joining us, late or early!

BELLAMARIE: you must tell us how the basketball game came out! tears or cheers together!

ELLA: I agree Emma is the least likable of Austen's heroines. But my daughter points out she is the most human. Yes, she thinks selfishly, but if someone put our inner thoughts on paper what would they sound like? Be patient with her.

[JoanK]

I'm intrigued that Austen says Emma is the heroine most like herself. As you read, think about way that Emma might be like Austen.

[BarbStAubrey]

I really have to think this story is written from a caged bird who points fingers - A FLAW??!!??

I would say a dichotomy - "been mistress of his house from a very early period"  followed in the next paragraph by this gem "Sixteen years had Miss Taylor been..., less as a governess than a friend, very fond of..., but particularly of Emma. Between them it was more the intimacy of sisters."

And since Emma is mistress of the house that would carry not only responsibility but is a powerful position therefore, Miss Taylor may be a friend but not equal to the status and responsibility held by Emma and then we have this that shows such a lack of understanding for the position Emma has been in for years.

"The real evils, indeed," Evil??!!?? Yes, if Emma was not the mistress of the house with all that responsibility that no where does it suggest she was negligent and this household includes a father who cannot pull it together.

Ah so here Jane Austen admits Emma has Power so how does she then act like a powerless second girl child? "Emma's situation were the power of having rather too much her own way," Of course she would be used to getting her own way - she had to get her way with servants, scheduling the household from cleaning to dinner, vendors, shop keepers, holidays, the garden, you name it."  

And then we have the back fence gossip that borders to me on jealousy, if not for the power assumed by Emma then for the fact that other second daughters in most other families are not subjected to running the household and can be docile as Jane who probably ran her own household by this time suggests. Jane is probably pandering to the public nay sayers who think girls should not let others know about or see their power, Jane Austin says, "and a disposition to think a little too well of herself;"

I wonder if she was writing this tongue and cheek pandering to an audience that wants to see girls in a certain light and even Jane Austen knows better that they are only disadvantaged because they do not fit the picture the public has of young women when she says, "these were the disadvantages which threatened alloy to her many enjoyments."

Then Jane Austin suggests, "The danger, however, was at present so unperceived, that they did not by any means rank as misfortunes with her." Was that her way of tucking in her own battles with trying to earn money for a family dependent on her and the misfortunes of getting published and the constant work of producing the written word that was as much work hanging over her head since it was a responsibility that she almost rivaled the kitchen help or laundress in long hours of hard work.

I only see the 'flaw' as being on the social mores of society at the time expecting the impossible from this young women who stopped being a girl years before her time - sure we can say if the father had been a strong man but there are many ifs plus we would not have a story - and in light of having a story I will bristle but try to see this story through the eyes of people who want their version of life to be true rather than Emma's reality - does anyone I wonder, ever give her the kudos for carrying off the job of a women with such excellence at such a young age.

This dichotomy hit me like a ton of bricks this time where I too just went along with the crowd which of course affects your own view of what is the proper behavior of a young women and Jane let us know spunky was not to be admired. hmmm

[JoanK]

BARB: "I only see the 'flaw' as being on the social mores of society at the time expecting the impossible from this young women who stopped being a girl years before her time."

That's what's so great about these discussions: different points of view. Austen makes light of Emma's taking on responsibility at an early age, so I admit I did too. What do the rest of you think?

[PatH]

Most of the other characters like and admire Emma.  What do they see in her?

[PatH]

TO  HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS, THE PRINCE REGENT, THIS WORK IS, BY HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS'S PERMISSION, MOST RESPECTFULLY DEDICATED, BY HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS'S  DUTIFUL AND OBEDIENT HUMBLE SERVANT, THE AUTHOR.

There's a funny story about this.  The Prince Regent was an admirer of Austen's works, and had his librarian write her, suggesting she dedicate her next book to him.  Austen didn't want to, as she disapproved of the Prince's dissolute lifestyle, but of course such a request isn't optional, so she did.

[Ella Gibbons]

That's a good point of view, PATH.  Everyone does admire and like Emma, why?     There's a reason that Austen has made her to be such an unlovely person to the reader; I'm not at all sure yet but we are going to find out why eventually and that,  I suspect, is the answer.   Read on.........

[Ella Gibbons]

I did also, BARB and JK.  How much responsibility did this young woman have to deal with?  She had her beloved Miss Taylor, governess, housekeeper, whatever to help, she had servants to do her bidding, what actually did the young woman do?  Methinks as she grew older, she did just what she wanted to do.  At the time she was limited by distance, by interaction with others, the era that Austen knew.

She, no doubt, went to parties, on visits, invited others to the house, to dinners, for longer periods. 

One phrase somewhere along the way stayed with me:   "intelligent solitude"   I pondered over that one for a few minutes.  Austen is very good with these.

I must learn more about the author as I haven't taken time to do so.

[JoanK]

ELLA: "intelligent solitude". I missed that! That is indeed what women of that class were supposed to be good at: reading improving books, painting, practicing an instrument, embroidering.

EMMA isn't good at this: she gets bored with things and is a people person.

Do you think Austen is talking about herself here?

[Halcyon]

Barb implied that Emma didn't get the credit she deserved for running the household at such a young age.  Ella pointed out that Emma had lots of help. Both true.  Mr. Knightley (another Lancelot? Haha) says Emma is the cleverest in the family but will never submit to anything requiring industry and patience.  I think all this has led to arrogance.  We've all seen young people full of themselves.  Self centered and shallow also come to mind.  Appearances are more important than substance "felt an interest in Harriet on account of her beauty".  "She would notice her, improve her and make her quite perfect."  I wonder how Emma would have fared had she lived in London where she wasn't the big fish in the small pond.  Although she has these flaws I don't dislike her character.  Yet.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ella my thought is she had to manage all those who helped her - keep them working and in good humor like a CEO today - just as today a women in a comfortable economic circumstance does not do the washing, cooking, cleaning, decorating with flowers from the garden etc. but she must oversee those who do the manual work - oversee and plan the house parties etc. I see Emma as a CEO of the estate when other young girls her age were only worrying about which petticoat to wear and what flowers to put in their hair.

She sure was limited wasn't she - I wonder if she was in-line to receive any of the estate ownership or profits after her father dies - there were only the two girls and the older girl married - I wonder how that worked and if she saw her role as preserving her future or was she just maintaining the estate for another member of the family after her father dies.

My thought PatH is that she had a free and independent way about her as well as the ability to gossip, good and bad gossip, so just as today that combo is what makes many a young teen the leader of the girls among her friends or in school.

"intelligent solitude" I need to find that - that is a phrase to ponder isn't it... Need to see how JA uses the phrase.

[BarbStAubrey]

Whoops we were writing at the same time Halcyon - I can see what you are saying however, I see most teen girls as self-centered and that can come across as shallow - maybe this story could be considered a coming of age story as Emma learns what in life works and what does not and this story is the hard lesson to learn how she is worthy when she listens and fits into the pattern of life that includes respecting other's choices but then maybe I am getting ahead of the story - for now I see her as a teen carrying out the role of a woman without the maturity of a woman and not being given the acknowledgment for how well she has carried out her role as mistress of the house.  

[JoanK]

More about Austen. As you might expect, she was a member of the gentry, a gentlewoman with very little money, and we always know in her books how money influences the characters. She had a few suitors, but nothing worked out. She refused one: another was made by his family to marry someone with more money. Her closest relationship was with her sister, and almost all her heroines have either close sisters or a close female friend. As Barb pointed out, by the end of her life, she was working very hard to support the family with her writing. By then, her books were very popular. Of course, they were published anonymously: a "lady" didn't put her name on books. She died in her forties.

She was far from a feminist or social critic. She pretty much accepted the mores and customs of her day, even while poking fun at them sometimes. But her good heart and quick intelligence also lets her see through them at times. She is the novelist of the small: the everyday life of women of her class with all its pettiness and boredom. But within this small framework she finds all the things that make human experience universal.

What do the rest of you Austen addicts have to say.

 

[bellamarie]

For some reason I did not see Emma's life difficult or stressed whatsoever, regardless of her responsibilities.  In the very first lines of the story I got the impression she has a really good, happy life.

"Emma Woodhouse, handsome, clever, and rich, with comfortable home and happy disposition seemed to unite some of the best blessings of existence; and had lived nearly, twenty-one years in the world with very little to distress or vex her.  She was the youngest of the two daughters of a most affectionate, indulgent father; and had, in consequence of her sister's marriage, been mistress of this house from a very early period.  Her mother had died too long ago for her to have more than an indistinct remembrance of her caresses; and her place had been supplied by an excellent woman as governess, who had fallen little short of a mother in affection."

Is anyone else getting the impression, Mr. Knightly may have a bit of an interest in Emma, all the while she is trying to match make him with Harriet?   He sure assumes to know her quite well.  

Barb,

" This dichotomy hit me like a ton of bricks this time where I too just went along with the crowd which of course affects your own view of what is the proper behavior of a young women and Jane let us know spunky was not to be admired. hmmm"

I am loving these first chapters....they are so the Jane Austen I adore!  I have seen in all her books I have read, usually the main female character holds many of Austen's personal traits, or those she would love to have in herself. Yes, Barb, in Austen's books there is a dichotomy, and the main female character, or sister is a bit spunky for the English era. That is what makes it so much fun!  I mean we must have one lady, who doesn't follow all the protocol, and expectations of the norm.   I really don't try to overthink or over analyze her stories, I just enjoy them.  I like most of the characters so far am loving Emma.  She has good intentions with Harriet.  And an artist, who knew?!

[PatH]

I see Emma as a CEO of the estate when other young girls her age were only worrying about which petticoat to wear and what flowers to put in their hair.

I think we have to give Emma credit for this.  She wouldn't have to do the work, but she would have to make the decisions, how to run things, what to eat, and she would have to keep things harmonious among the large body of servants.

Her governess might well advise her, but would not have had any authority in the matter.

[JoanK]

What about the rest of you? Are you still reading?

why did Emma take Harriet under her wing? For those who haven't read the book, was it a good decision? What else might she have done? Why so few choices?

[Jonathan]

I refuse to see any flaws in Emma. I feel only admiration for her. She shows so much concern for the welfare of others. She manages the many moods of her father so well. She knows everyone's place in her social setting. She'll make a grand dowager some day. I wish her well.

[pedln]

This is probably the first Jane Austen book I have read.  (I was more of a Louisa May Alcott fan, and thoroughly enjoyed hers.  I think I was an adult before I even heard of Jane Austen.

So, to the book.  For sure, I agree with those who say Austen has created a character most of us will dislike.  Quite the little manipulator, isn't she.  And has anyone mentioned the adjective selfish?  Since she has lost her governess and friend to matrimony she now needs another companion/confidante.  But at what price to the chosen?

Ah, the poor gentry of 1815.  What was there to keep them occupied.  Evening games --good, fun.  And conversation -- but their world was so small they could only talk about each other.

[Halcyon]

why did Emma take Harriet under her wing? For those who haven't read the book, was it a good decision? What else might she have done? Why so few choices?


Emma was bored and looking for a project and along came Harriet, a most suitable companion, easily influenced.  Good decision?  Good that she had a companion her age.  Maybe Emma's meddling was not so good for Harriet.  We'll see.

Jonathan, your comment made me laugh out loud.

[JoanK]

PEDLIN, HALCYON: this probably isn't the best Austen book for the first: all her other heroines are easier to relate to (sorry JONATHAN!).Pride and Prejudice" is the most popular. But stick with EMMA.

JONATHAN, I agree that she does care about others. And if she is a little too proud of herself for doing so, who isn't? (I see a lot of myself there). But don't you see anything lacking?

[BarbStAubrey]

umm learning but not lacking - she has the courage to try what she thinks is being helpful but then she is young and only sees the world through her eyes expecting her view of the world to be the norm.

[JoanK]

Good point, BARB.

[bellamarie]

Jonathan, I am with you.  I adore Emma and her spunky personality.  And she does not even consider love and marriage for herself. 

Emma is real for me.  We all would have some of her qualities and flaws, and still be very likable.  I don't want a fake, straight lace, yes sir, no sir character.  I do like her friendship with Harriet.  

I laughed at loud when Harriet is asking for advice on how to reply to Mr. Martin's letter of proposal, and Emma says:

"But what are you in doubt of?  You must answer it, of course, and speedily.
"But what shall I say?  Dear Miss Woodhouse, do advise me."
"Oh, no, no; the letter had much better be all your own.  You will express yourself very properly, I am sure.  There is no danger of your not being intelligible, which is the first thing.  Your meaning must be unequivocal; no doubts of demurs; and such expressions of gratitude and concern for the pain you are inflicting as propriety requires, will present themselves unbidden to your mind, I am persuaded.  You need not be prompted to write with the appearance of sorrow for his disappointment."
"You think I ought to refuse him, then?" said Harriet, looking down.
"Ought to refuse him!  My dear Harriet, what do you mean?  Are you in an doubt as to that?  I thought__ but I beg your pardon, perhaps I have been under a mistake,  I certainly have been misunderstanding you, if you feel in doubt as to the purport of your answer.  I had imagined you were consulting me only as to the wording of it."
Harriet was silent.  With a little reserve of manner, Emma continued.
"You meant to return a favorable answer, I collect?"
"No; I do not, that is, I do not mean__what shall I do?  What would you advise me to do?  Pray, Miss Woodhouse, tell me what I ought to do."
"I shall not give you any advice, Harriet.  I will have nothing to do with it.  This is a point which you must settle with your own feelings."

But then of course Emma goes on to pretty much tell Harriet she must refuse Mr. Martin, and once Harriet decides to refuse him, Emma says:

"I kept my feelings to myself, but now that you are so completely decided, I have no hesitation approving."

As important as it is to Harriet, I found humor in how Emma was almost mortified when Harriet seems uncertain as to how she really wants to respond to Mr. Martin.

In all sincerity, Emma was being a true friend to Harriet, even if it seems selfish, because she wants the best for Harriet, and given the times and circumstances, she sees Mr. Martin not suitable for Harriet.  We have to keep in mind that many a marriages took place back then with love not necessarily being the primary reason. Social status, the man's career, family and income could trump, love.  

[marcie]

Because Austen doesn't dwell on the role of "mistress of the house" except to indicate that it contributed to Emma's "having her own way," I'm looking at it that way too and not that she was burdened by the details of keeping the house. Her governess didn't have authority but I'm sure was a help to her. Her mother had already hired and trained the staff so it's likely that they knew what to do from day to day.

However, I do think that the early role of mistress of the house, contributed to the responsibility Emma feels for her father and to the way she serves as a perfect hostess to guests in the house... and maybe to her exerting her influence in "meddling" in the lives of friends.

Bellamarie, those passages regarding Emma "keeping her feelings to herself" about the letter from Mr. Martin are very funny. She is manipulative but she does think she has in mind the best interests of her companions.

So far, Emma reminds me of the early Mr. Darcy in Pride and Prejudice. By the end of the book, he acknowledges that he had been arrogant... had been given good principles but left to himself to apply them (or not). He initially looks down on the people at the ball and doesn't see anyone worth dancing with. He interferes in his friend's potential engagement to Jane Bennet for Bingley's "own good."  Emma too is proud and willful but both characters (Emma and Darcy) have more to offer than they show in the beginning and they give us hints of the possibility of change.

[bellamarie]

Marcie, what a great comparison.  I loved, Mr. Darcy, and as much as he resisted, he just could not help himself, from interfering. But, then I won't go any further, so as not to give too much away for our new Austenites, should they decide to read P & P later.
Emma does have a good heart and good intentions, in spite of how she goes about things.

Always look for Austen's humor.  If you take her books too seriously, you will pass up some really fun moments.  Yes, even the English can be funny.

[JoanK]

I find Austen very funny: her sharp eye to point out all our little foibles. It's uncomfortable at times: I'm not sure I'd want her looking at me with those sharp eyes.

[Ella Gibbons]

I sense that Austen is setting us for a change in the reader's perspective of the characters, possibly the arrogance of the Mr. and Miss Woodhouse.  It all remains to be seen, but she has made Emma, the heroine of the story, out to be a very domineering, commanding, manipulative personality and then to top it off, Emma is proud of being so, her vanity has no bounds.

Harriet, a possible companion, is caught up in Emma's trap, the story has yet to unfold.

Knightley admires Emma's beauty but is anxious about Emma's future and wonders what will become of her, as do we all at this stage.   The story will further unfold.

I think Mr. Martin, the farmer, is well to be rid of the Woodhouses, Emma and Harriet.  The latter would have, probably, been a good wife for him but would she have ever been invited to Highbury again?

Not for me, I dated a young man in my youth who was a farmer who loved it all, the 4:00 a.m. milking and other chores, going to bed at sundown; had wonderful parents, his mother having baked 4 pies before breakfast!  He became wealthy as he grew older, buying up more land as it came up for sale from dissatisfied young heirs.

I would not have enjoyed living in this era, the Austen era, for all the reasons others have stated above

"Not for the world would I advise you either way.  You must be the best judge of your own happiness." 

Yes, funny!

[Ella Gibbons]

I can't pass one paragraph without lingering.  Emma, in discouragaing Harriet's reaction to the letter says:  "Oh, yes, .....nobody cares for a letter; the thing is, to be always happy with pleasant companions."

Oh, I want letters back again, I want the wonderful feeling of sliding one out of the mailbox.  And having a pleasant cup of coffee while I'm reading  a 2-3 page one from my sisters who live out of state.

I'm most like Mr. Woodhouse, who doesn't like change, who has no talents to recommend her.

[Ella Gibbons]

JOANK, we should answer your thoughtful questions in the heading.  A flaw in Emma's character - vanity, pride.  Her beauty, her intellligence, no doubt, contributed to everyone agreeing with and admiring her, spoiling her.

Emma's attitude toward other women are interesting aren't they?  She seems to lose interest in women once they are married - her sister, Miss Taylor.   But single women, particularly those that can be easily influenced, she pursues attentively.  Wtness, Harriet. 

Men are a different animal.  My opinions to date; I'm sure they will change.

[JoanK]

"Emma's attitude toward other women are interesting aren't they?  She seems to lose interest in women once they are married - her sister, Miss Taylor."

Interesting: I hadn't thought of that. Do the rest of you agree?

[JoanK]

Now that (I assume) everyone has read this week's selection, I need some guidance. Are the new "Austenites" up for a longer piece next week? How much longer? Did you find the reading difficult? Slow? Is there anyone who hasn't finished?

[Halcyon]

JoanK. I found the reading easy. More would be fine with me.  Maybe a couple more chapters. Not so long that we can't remember the beginning to the end. 

Interesting observation about Emma dropping women friends after they marry.  Doesn't  want to share attention with the new husband?  Does anyone have an idea how much older Mr. Knightly is than Emma?  Why has no one grabbed him up?

[JoanK]

HALCYON: great. Mr. knightly is "36 or 7", Emma is 21.

[bellamarie]

Emma is twenty-one years old, and Mr. Knightly is thirty-seven years old.

I don't necessarily see Emma losing interest in the females once they marry, other than the fact they no longer live with her in the estate.  They are not too far away, but we all know you can get busy with your marriage and not have as much time for the single girls, just as the single girls will look for other friends/companions to share their single interests with. 

JoanK., I found the seven chapters to be short and easy to read, so if you want to add a couple more for the next assigned week, I am okay with that.

Ella, I like your catch on Emma's reaction to the letter.  And to add to that, it was surprising to Emma how well the letter was written.  She actually wanted to think for a moment his sister may have written it for him, but then admitted to Harriet, it was a very well written letter.