Kristin Lavransdatter

[BarbStAubrey]

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April - June Book Club Online

Kristin Lavransdatter
by Sigrid Undset

This Nobel prize-winning book is the tumultuous story of the daughter of a 14th century Norwegian nobleman-farmer.   I loved it when I first read it decades ago, and now there’s a new translation which makes it even better.

Discussion Leader: PatH

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow - we may have missed the war of law and land going on that was showing itself in the first book and the first half of this second book - been reading from From Viking Stronghold to Christian Kingdom: State Formation in Norway - and other history sites including the wonderful one from Fordham University - Evidently at this time in history in Norway there was a real tug of war going on between the National Law and the Old Christian Law and the newer version of the Christian Law - on the surface it sounds simple but it affected taxes, land holdings, the military, Alliances between nations and trade alliances (that include nations we do not know today like Novgorod that only later became part of Russia) and the biggie, who heard a court case and what law was to be applied in these court cases.

It seems the church owned 40% of all the land in Norway and if you were essentially a tenant on church land you paid your taxes to the Church and were subject to the newer version of Christian Law - remember early on how Lavrans takes Kristin, a young child at the time, with him to visit I think it was the Cathedral where he not only pays his taxes but he goes into a private room for confession leaving Kristin on the stairwell where she meets a monk who befriends her - That whole scene sets it up that Lavrans is living on Church land and his reference to law would be church law that was in the cross roads of Old Christian Law and the new, more directly from the Pope and recent Ecumenical Councils and why Gunnulf believes he has jurisdiction over Kristin's soul - and then his going North for the church, at the time the Church is attempting to increase its power in Norway by claiming more land and thus more taxes and more legal authority.

Where as at this time there is only 20 families with ties to the crown and they along with the crown own two thirds of the remaining 60% with peasants owning the other third of that 60%. They had put first the National law but this time in history the National Law and Old Church Law are attempting to share authority however, there are two separate courts using separate laws and the Barons use the separation to their advantage by choosing the court that is going to give them the best outcome.

I forgot the name of the designation that Erlend receives that is similar to his father - warden or something - anyhow these designations were not automatically passed from Father to Son and there are only two families in all of Norway that had passed on designations, one for 8 generations and the other for 7 generations.

There are two changes taking place that is part of the this new support of Margaret and her son and the confluence of Sweden, Denmark and Norway - it seems that in the preceding century the Cistercians find a formula for great land and farming success that becomes a blueprint for worldly financial success. Rejecting the riches of cities and of fertile plains, they settle on the edges of cultivated life where land is easily available. With no pay to workers (the monks) and an architectural plan different than the Carthusian, where each monk has an individual cell and therefore growth is limited to the number of monks housed in the abbey the Cictercians plan housed as many as 700 compared to about 35 for the Carthusians - the Cictercians took on more and more land and made their farms so productive they were not only wealthy affecting banking but an economic boon for Europe that affected trade, so that the German federation of trade and shipping towns spread between the Baltics to Spain also became wealthy. (An aside, all this wealth and newly formed banking system to handle it set Christians and Jews against each other since the Jews were the bankers before this time)

And so not only do we see national interests scrambling to access this wealth there is increasing conflict between Church Law and the laws of Kings. In the case of Norway we have Old Church Law that was open to men having concubines so much so that within some of the old Churches in naves or beneath the floor of the alter are places set aside for the burial of the children a Barron or the King or the Bishops would have with their mistresses. This practice was only stopped with the 8th or 9th Ecumenical Council in Constantinople affecting the new Church Law in Norway that affected most directly those who farmed on church owned land.

We really have to look at this book as analyzing themes and characters showing us how the history of the time played out among individuals - regardless that some of the ways of life are more easily understood because they are similar to how we live today this was a very chaotic time where major changes were taking place economically and belief systems were being changed not by the will of the people but by the force of laws that were not consistent even in the same towns - the book indicated that what was happening in Norway was happening all over Europe but Norway had more documentation preserved to examine the changes -

Evidently what really made the change was the Black Death that takes a third of the people in Norway where it reaches the shores with a Ghost ship of wool that floats into Bergen and every sailor aboard is dead. However, with the short summers (spring onto summer is when the plague was most active and contagious) Norway does not experience the repetitive onslaughts of the disease that kills half of Europe - During the early stages of the epidemic a single Pope is chosen and he returns to Rome and the church is able to control more and more of Europe's vacated land again, much as it did when Charlemagne was in power, bringing about more influence from Church Law than National Laws till even the excesses in Rome that followed the excesses of lifestyle in Avignon was too much and the Reformation was the cure all as Kings in every affected nation, blunder and strip not only legal authority but land, buildings, schools, and art killing tens of thousands of Christians in addition to the clergy. 

The Reformation takes place after our story that is featuring the characters, Kristin and Erlend. Their story appears to be setting the stage, step by step for how the Church became powerful and how Church influence affected people and the lead up to how the three Nordic nations were entwined as one, using the characters in this story to illustrate daily life.

[BarbStAubrey]

I can see Kristin as the symbol of Norway that of course she would rescue Erlend, who represents the Viking history and National Law and Land ownership that puts him with the Barons and the King or Queen of Norway versus those who are living and farming Church Land which the church hopes to influence the laws of Norway - however, Norway is both and therefore Kristin is saving both herself and like a good Christin would help those in need and by helping to free Erlend, they can influence together their children - the future of Norway.

[bellamarie]

PatH., I'm okay with doubling them, and do a whole book at a time.  The first book, The Cross Part One Kinship's Dues is about 100 pages, which I feel I can handle if everyone else is okay with it. Things are at a pretty fast pace in the book, and we can always continue discussing as we read. 

Barb,

Wow - we may have missed the war of law and land going on that was showing itself in the first book and the first half of this second book

We can see the changes that are trying to occur in the politics and church, law and land, but even though some of the people were willing to hang their trust with Erlend in his coup to take over the King, they certainly were not ready to be known, once he was arrested.  No one was willing to show up to plead his case.  Kristin had to do all she could because that is the person she is.  She is at her best in a crisis, and sad to say, Erlend has certainly given her many of them to tackle.  Kristin is contented in living in Jorundgaard, she wants her seven sons to know how to farm, she believes in a hard days work, she wants her sons to be happy with living in her world she grew up in, with faith and family, she does not strive for nobleness or politics for them, she is proud of who Lavrans was and what he represented, and would be proud for her sons to live this same life, unfortunately Erlend wants to live in a fantasy world, thinking he or his sons, are going to one day become noble.  Because of all his past actions, he has pretty much squelched all those possibilities for his sons and himself.  I'm not sure I can go as far as believing Erlend gave two hoots about what overtaking the King would result in for the people, he was focused on what it would do for him and his sons.  He gained the trust of others, because they knew the changes would be good for them. 

I can see as you point out, the author may be setting the stage for the changes that occur for Norway, after this story ends. Undset has indeed covered much in this story. 

 

[BarbStAubrey]

All we can do when we read to understand a story is see the symbolism and make the connections - these are characters with equal value to understanding the story as the setting, conflict, plot and theme - all part of finding the rise, climax and falling and resolution aspects of a story - These are the key elements which must be incorporated into the writing of a novel.

Characters tell the story through their actions and dialog. We need characters with various characteristics to create the tensions in a story so that one character is useless without the other - therefore, we cannot really label one good or bad, they are both needed because as an individual character they serve no purpose except as an element of a story that helps us deduce the themes authors choose between; a character and nature - a character and another character - a character and society - the internal conflicts within a character along with place, time and setting all leading us to the central idea.

Erlend is neither good or bad, he is a character that is showing us an aspect of this society just as Kristin is also a character who is not good or bad but, is following the paths available to her in this time and place - their differences along with the differences between the other characters are not good or bad but, simply telling us a story of conflict within the boundaries of fourteenth century Norwegian society.

It is not important that Erlend has few to support him it is important to discover what is going on in the society that he has few to support him - we need to be asking and noticing What are his values? What does he desire? Even though he’s independent and not a good farmer, why does he not become a good farmer, what way of life is he projecting - why is he concerned if his sons are physically strong - what did he believe that allowed him to be put in jail - why does he love Kristin? Not that this character labeled Erlend is to our liking - but what is this character contributing to our understanding of the conflict between the king and the Barons and the King and the Church and the King and the peasants and the King and those paying taxes to the Crown and the King and those paying taxes to the Church and the King and the people's projected ideal of his role in how Norway interfaces with Denmark and  Sweden, with trade between nations, etc. as well as, how the power struggle for the crown are all wrapped up in the character called Erlend as well as, the other characters.

Who are these characters from the standpoint of representing differences that are being played out at this time in history in Norway - what will happen to them is tied to the values that Norway is struggling with rather than according to our standards if they are living a moral life - their moral life is coming from a very different cauldron than our own - this is a time when a faithful husband and wife were an anomaly that even the Church leaders were struggling to honor and where there were still various legal ways to determine if you were married and where children were not cared for exclusively by a mother - that concept of motherhood was not part of the history of the west till the 1800s.

Yes, I am concerned that we are loosing the discussion of this book to our personal taste for characters that we would be more comfortable with if they lived by the newer values and morality rather than as characters who are simply an element vital to this story.  We did well finding the differences in behavior and values during the discussions of books written in the nineteenth century - folks like Sir Walter in Persuasion were not considered bad, we said he was snobbish and selfish but not bad and because of his behavior and attitude he led Anne to a life that was not in her best interest - we read with success Jane Austen and Charles Dickens seeing the importance of all the characters - we seem to have lost our way with this trilogy written about fourteenth century Norwegian conflicts as expressed through various characters behavior.  

[bellamarie]

I don't feel we are losing anything in our discussion, because each person's post, and point of view is important.  What one person sees important in a story, another person may see another thing important. Our personal feelings of the characters is what draws us to them or makes us not care for them. I feel we have done a excellent job in touching on all aspects of the characters and the era.  

I personally feel the author has written Erlend's character badly flawed, even keeping with these times.  He has lost the friendship and respect of just about everyone including his family members.  Essentially, the values in this century are really not all that different from any century, morals, faith and common decency, has been expected since the beginning of time.  I don't see Erlend would be any different if you plopped him down in Pride & Prejudice, Downton Abbey, or a modern day classic.  He is the carefree, swindler, dishonest, unfaithful, selfish, self serving character.  There are those in many a novels.  Undset I feel, is showing the comparisons of dark and light, good and evil, by giving us Simon and Erlend.  Kristin herself makes these same comparisons.  She can depend on Simon, she can not depend on Erlend.  Undset is showing your actions have consequences, and those consequences do not only affect just you, they affect all those around you.  
 
The history, church, laws and places of this time frame are very interesting, and I commend Undset on a wonderful job in how she has written this story, but ultimately, these are people with the same situations in life regardless of what era.  We may not read it the same, we may not get the same from the story, we may not care to depict certain aspects.  When I read a story I don't over analyze it because in doing so, I would lose interest in the basic theme and characters.   There is no right way to read a story.  Every person comes at it from their own personal way.  I can appreciate and respect the different ways of others because I can learn new ideas from them.  I wouldn't expect everyone to discuss, and see it from only my personal point of view, I only can share in the discussion what I get from it and hope to learn more as I read others comments.  

I'm sorry you feel you have lost your way with this trilogy, I have been enjoying it very much, even though it can be extremely frustrating at times with the repeated behaviors of the characters.  I have not seen much growth in any of them to be honest, and we are already going into the third book.  We can't blame their attitudes and behaviors on the Norwegian time frame, all different times have some form of laws and church restrictions, yet it is up to the people to decide to abide by them, and try to live a harmonious life with others, or they can rebel and choose to make their own life, and others around them miserable.  

This trilogy has been lengthy, and as I am getting into the third book I am thinking this story could have been told in less words and less books.  But I will forge on til the end.  

[BarbStAubrey]

Seems to me we need to be asking why Erlend's character is written as someone "badly flawed, even keeping with these times.  He has lost the friendship and respect of just about everyone including his family members." Why does Kristin love him as a flawed husband - What is it saying that we should understand that he is written as a flawed character - Does he get any brownie points for being at sea for long periods of time to protect Norway - and what does it mean to the story and to the other characters that he lost the respect of just about everyone - to whose benefit is it that he losses the friendship and respect of just about everyone - He does not feel any worse for the opinion others have of him - what is all this saying to us that points us to the theme of this story -

Is the conflict simply that Erlend is a bad guy and like a western he is the one wearing the black hat? Then who is wearing the white hat? - Does Kristin also wear a black hat since she was as passionately in love with Erlend wanting to be with him within days of their pristine virtuous overnight in the garden and she continues to support and stand by him - and so what is it that she is standing by - she does not come off as being dumb so what is in it for her to love this man.

Given the morality of the day is he really flawed or is it that the morals of all those tied to the pre-Christian heritage of the nation flawed. Even Gunnulf is flawed exacting such a harsh penance on Kristin as a young mother compared to how other clergy comfort her and he does not honor his God-given body when he denies its health with limited food and sleep and his prostrating himself inflicting punishment on his body - The leaders of the Church are flawed having children with woman they do not marry.  At least Erlend married Kristin, who deliberately hardens her heart against Lavrans - and Lavrans blames his youth as the reason he is repulsed by Ragnfrid’s desire for him. There does not appear to be a white hat among the lot. Kristin and Erlend's share a love for each other during their stormy marriage that her parents’ more seemly and decent marriage lacks -  

I agree Erlend would not be someone we would admire if he lived in our neighborhood and, it appears we are to this day hearing there are still many flawed priests as well as, many manipulative political figures that 'use' other people and who do not live up to our expectations for those holding their elevated power positions.

However, they all have a vulnerable place - as Robert Duvall, the actor who played Stalin said, he searched and found Stalin's vulnerability wrapped in the suicide death of his beautiful first wife. What does Erlend represent and where is his vulnerability. Erlend does not seem to be a cruel man - where is his vulnerability - figuring that out may lead us to why he is written with all his flaws in this story by Undset, a Nobel Prize winner, who was awarded the prize for this work and for her other series, The Master of Hestviken.  It is difficult to imagine that someone would receive the Nobel Prize for a story with a mistakenly written character -

We may not like him as a neighbor however, this character has a reason for being in the story - what is it that Sigrid Undset is saying through this character? Does he represent someone like the man with 'No Name' in Fist Full of Dollars, who few of us would want to have over for dinner but we saw the rational for his revenge and although, we know revenge is sinful we still took to him, cruelty and all.

Erlend is not an alcoholic or a bigot, he is not a snob or filled with sarcasm and snarky comments, he is not a lazy leader of men and he was never a pedophile - where Lavrans was repulsed by sex, Ragnfrid, like Erlend and Kristin enjoyed pre-marital passionate sex. All the characters are flawed - is that it, to accept that none of us live the pure Christian life and keeping our sins hidden makes us appear less like Erlend whose sins are known by all who know him and regardless of his penance he is identified by his sins - some of which are only sins by Christian standards and not by the standards of the old ways or the Old Christian practices.  

Yes, he is not a farmer but then is a Navel commander today a farmer even if he owns land - is a leader of men in politics a farmer - Lavrans was a successful knight but we do not hear he was a leader as Erlend in charge of keeping safe a far northern territory and where Lavrans did turn to farming not every man is a farmer - Kristin would make a good farmer's wife but she chose a man who is more knowledgeable and comfortable in a boat - she found the boat to be the least enjoyable way of travel - in that they were opposites - does one give up who they are to be like their partner - and so why did Undset write this couple having such different experiences and life skills - what are we to deduce from that? What significance is it that Erlend is a leader of men at sea much as his Viking history?

A Viking history that Norwegians identify for themselves to this day along with their skill at winter sports and their short summer farming is secondary to fishing and forestry. Norway quickly, in less then 200 years from the setting time of this story, dropped its Catholic association for Lutheranism and today the old Sagas are still read - it is as if Erlend and Kristin and the values of all the characters are alive in the moral flaws and values of Norway today.  

There are so many questions that if we could unravel some of them maybe we could uncover the theme and message in this trilogy.

[PatH]

So much good stuff said since I was last in here.  Yes, the book is getting long.  Bellamarie, I hope you felt free to start in on the next section, Kinship's Dues in Archer, Honor among Kin in Nunnally.  Let's read all of it in one chunk.  I won't be able to finish it today--have a lot on my plate, but anyone can start talking about it at any time.  And meanwhile, we can finish anything we have to say about this section.

[PatH]

As a reader, I see my job with the characters in three parts.  First, figure out what they are like.  Second, decide what I think of them.  Third, figure out what the author means by them.  Why did she make them this way?  What is she saying with them, what is her point?  I like the fact that we are all approaching the characters from different directions--we'll get more of the truth that way.

Barb and Bellamarie, you've covered a lot of Erlend's flawed character.  But one thing that strikes me forcefully is how childish he is; in some ways, he's not really a grownup.  Kristin, musing on all the little wounds he's given her:  "...even though she had always known that he never wounded her the way a grown person intends harm to another, but rather the way a child strikes out playfully at his companion."  He does things lightheartedly and impulsively, not worrying about consequences, and laughing at them when they come.  He's not built to be a farmer, but most people would at least take some care to rent out things properly, not lose so much value without even thinking.  He doesn't seem to take life seriously.

He does have virtues, most of them military.  He is brave: courageous in battle, and able to endure torture knowing he won't break.  He's good at military things too--takes a fierce joy in them.  He's honorable, except in his dealings with women, holding to the rules of conduct of his class.  He accidentally betrays his comrades through stupidity, but would never do so deliberately.

And for some reason, people like him.  Lavrans liked him better than he wanted to, and even Simon, after so much agonizing effort to save his worthless hide, can't help sort of liking him.

So what is Undset saying with this very mixed person?  I hope we figure it out.  Barb suggests he's a Viking, which surely is part of it, and I'm working on a pretty fantastical theory.  I wait with interest.

[PatH]

Barb, thanks for that analysis of the changing laws at that time.  That explains why so much point is made, in the efforts to free Erlend, of the fact that torturing him is a violation of Norwegian law, done by foreigners.  That would be a strong talking point.

[bellamarie]

Barb,

It is difficult to imagine that someone would receive the Nobel Prize for a story with a mistakenly written character -

I do not see a mistakenly written character.  I can not explain myself any more clear than what I have as far as my take on the characters.  I see the author showing us the history of Norway, the church, the laws and then there is the story of human nature.  I have throughout this entire discussion posted my thoughts, feelings, and perception of this story.  I don't expect everyone to come to the same conclusion I have.  Like I said, we all approach a story from our own personal perception.

Undset is more than deserving of her Nobel prize, she has taken these characters, placed them in this century, and then done a marvelous job in implementing their lives with the church, laws and land of this era, along with telling a story of how their life choices good or bad have consequences, and affect them and others around them.  

PatH.,  

As a reader, I see my job with the characters in three parts.  First, figure out what they are like.  Second, decide what I think of them.  Third, figure out what the author means by them.  Why did she make them this way?  What is she saying with them, what is her point?

I pretty much approach reading a story similar to this.  I feel I have pretty much been able to answer all of these questions.  As frustrated as I have been with not seeing more growth from these three characters to this point, they have pretty much lined up to what I have seen them to be throughout the story.  None of them are completely good or bad.  They all have their flaws.  Some just refuse to make any exceptions to help compromise, or get along better in society and family.  That being Erlend.  If I have been hard on Erlend it is because the author has written him this way.  You ask why?  It is obvious to show the differences of the two men, Erlend and Simon.  Erlend lives for himself, he throws caution to the wind and ignores church and law when he feels like it.  Simon is more of a faith living farmer, who cares for others feelings and how his actions can and does affect his family and friends.  Kristin is someone who is struggling with her lust and love for Erlend, over her love of faith and family.

Barb,  

There are so many questions that if we could unravel some of them maybe we could uncover the theme and message in this trilogy.

I don't feel your struggle.  I feel the answers for me have been answered up to this point, my predictions so far have all played out.  This story is a simple story for me.  It is about human nature, and how from the beginning of time with Adam and Eve, to modern day life, we are faced with living within laws, regardless if they are flawed or not.  We must have something as our basic guideline, which is our church/faith, and government/laws.  In choosing to abide within them, or rebel against them, we will either live a harmonious life, or a life full of strife and struggle.  

Because we all approach reading a story from our own perspective, we may all come to a different conclusion be it fantastical, simple, or some may not be able to come to a conclusion at all.   For me, I am more than okay with how Undset has written these characters and this story, flaws and all.  

[bellamarie]

Sorry, I have NO idea why my page is so long and blank.  I had a post all compiled and lost it, so maybe it's invisible.  

[PatH]

Maybe if I put on my special x-ray glasses I'll see it.   It's SO annoying to lose a post.

[BarbStAubrey]

I wondered about all the empty space on the bottom of your post Bellamaria - some sort of glich

OK it hit me - what I am seeing is a difference - all the laws coming from the Church are great for folks living in a community where as, the Erlend's of the world live and work in wide open spaces - after bringing up Fist Full of Dollars it hit me, Erlend hadn't bothered me all that much because he is JUST like those in this state who work a ranch - not so much the rancher but all the hands and 'cowboys' -

Yes, they live in the immediate - they would give you the shirt off their back as the saying goes - they have no use for money because there is no way they could ever put enough aside to buy something meaningful like a ranch - that is why the movies about some guy going back to family owned and neglected land or somehow coming into land ownership is a fantasy dream - all they own is their horse, saddle, rope, gun and their pickup - they are provided with room and board - living outside a big city, even back when Austin was only 600,000 and I worked at the Girl Scout Camp for a summer - we had a trespasser that we held with Wanda's rifle and Scout's shot gun till the Sheriff could get there - you could hear his siren in the night - it took him at top speed of over 75 miles an hour on these back roads 45 minutes to get there - so you better be independent and strong and the upshot is you protect the land from marauders with that being about the only law - in order to run a ranch you need cheap and cattle-skilled labor and so for generations there was a trickle up from Mexico where animal culture and horsemanship is second nature - it is the law of survival and the demands of the land that determine the law.

Most of these guys live for today - they have to make up their own laws as they go - they have to be clear eyed and healthy - and they are passionate about life - they see it around them everyday - to live and work in freezing weather or during a wet season you cannot keep it up in good humor without feeling a passion for life - in a moment they could loose everything - cattle disease - flash flood - lightening scattering a herd never to be found - that is big money (in todays money a weaned calf is worth a $1000 each) - you know how to work cooperatively with others of the same lifestyle - when these men move into town they are kind and helpful but rough and full of hardy expectations for a good time regardless how bad things become.

Bible - Church - what is that - when you work outdoors far away from towns that is not part of you life experience and on top we have Erlend being passed around as a child so that he had no loving mom to experience consistency and as a young man when the hormones are raging he was easily enticed by an older married lady - there was comfort by no passion or love -

As guys in this part of the country invite new found friends to visit they usually say something like, 'come on down and we will take the pretty out of you' and that is how I am now seeing Erlend - living in the immediate, passionate, little attachment to belongings except his boats, he worries if his children are not strong and hardy because to him life is physical, not an exercise in using your head to organize do's and don't's - you take things as they come - if Kristin did not make their home into a prosperous farm he would have been fine using it almost like a fortress and if he lost it he always has his boats - living this kind of life, like the men today that either work a ranch or are now in town with that heritage, usually involved in physical work like delivery or in the building trades, they see no guile and believe they can take care of themselves regardless what happens - they use the 'good ol' boy' approach to all encounters and so you do not see them in jail although, they do not live their life adhering to book laws. They are not out to get you and so their concept of law works.

Chris Kyle is a perfect example of a man who served - trusted - would give you the shirt off his back - was strong, independent, good looking, a big man who laughed a lot - lived in the now and could not imagine a fellow veteran, who he was giving some R&R would kill him on the shooting range.  

That is how I see Erlend - Erlend did not die as Chris did but even Chris, had he pulled through like so many who experience physical damage, it does not change their bon viveur attitude towards life or their independent nature that thrives on individual freedom - that is part of Erlend's relationship with Kristin - he sees her giving him a hard time as part of her nature and says so to her father when he wanted Kristin to change her ways.  With the folks who had professed to be friends of Erlend, as the saying goes, who needs enemies.

Tra la I am also seeing the match-up - as the American myth is the cowboy the Norwegian myth is the seafaring adventurers that were the Vikings. That independent, free, adventurer mindset is not turned off just because you are visiting or living in a town - the spirit that allows you to be the adventurer in wide open spaces 'is' your outlook on life and within that spirit is the knowledge that death could easily come so, live each minute regardless of circumstances.

Where as, those with the spirit that make them good farmers live with their focus on the future - seeds nurtured to a later harvest, profit conserved for a bad winter and future land purchases or the need for additional equipment or the needs of those working your land - if you do this or that as others have found successful this or that should be the outcome - God will send the rain and the sun and so be on good terms with God since a farmer needs the rain and the sun in certain doses therefore, organized religion and an organized government with guides for behavior make sense. Workers spread out over the land rather than in close quarters on a ship need to be led with kindness so they want to do their work where as, aboard ship they can see the immediate results of not working together and so again, that sets up a different personality interacting with others.

Like a good farmer Simon looks to the future and what could be with him and Kristin where as, Erlend is not stupid and sees it but his relationship with Kristin is like all his relationships in the here and now - the future will take care of itself.

OK gotta start the other book -

[bellamarie]

YEA Barb!  You had what I call a WOWZA moment!!!!  I'm glad Fist Full of Dollars, was able to help you see what I have been desperately trying to convey, and not doing as good a job as this movie has for you.  I'm just happy you can make sense of it all.

Erlend is the yen to Simon's yang.  Life needs both.  Kristin is somewhat caught between the yen and yang of life.  Her heart wants Erlend's carefree spirit, the wonderlust, yet her common sense wants someone more like Simon, for a steady, dependable husband. He warned her early on that life would be a struggle with him, and she thought she could handle it.  She just never realized how much of a struggle it would be.  This is why she explodes on Erlend after letting things bottle up in her for some time.  Kristin wants Erlend to be both yen and yang, which is impossible for him to be.  And to top things off.....she knows she is putting her love for Erlend, above her love for God.  We all at times can find ourselves doing this in life.   

I was gone out of town today, and had no time to read, so hopefully I can read some tonight or early tomorrow morning. 

PatH., If you manage to find my invisible words let me know.  Nothing more frustrating than to type a full post, only for it to vanish before my eyes.  You never remember the exact words again.  Grrrrrr......

[PatH]

Eureka!  I wasn't seeing it either.  Now I do.

[PatH]

Barb, I like seeing Erlend as a cowboy.  I've never met a cowboy, but you recognized what you've seen.  Cowboy, viking, lots of other roles of the same type.

[BarbStAubrey]

The recent flooding and these cowboys rescued about 800 head of cattle out of the swollen Trinity River and drove them to high ground going through a small town Dayton Texas on Hway 90

The first photo is one of the recent migrants that are needed on a ranch and the second photo is a more seasoned cowboy -

You are looking at about a million dollars on the hoof with those calves worth anything from $700 to $1000 according to their weight and a larger cow can bring in around $4000

[bellamarie]

So now Kristin and Erlend are living at Jorundgaard, and she is mistress of the manor.  He of course is not feeling comfortable here, it is so different than Husaby, even though he did not seem to do a days work there, or seem all that happy at Husaby either.  He just is not the type of man to put any effort into working the land.  PatH.,  I have to hand it to you, the qualities you gave to Erlend was gracious and generous in my opinion.  I was even willing to bend a bit to them, but these chapters only bring me back to my own feelings about him.  "Childish" is the one adjective I will agree with you on.

pg.  646

'Twas impossible he could be within as outwardly he seemed.  He must needs be unhappy here.

pg.  654

__'Twas hard to speak of it to Erlend, if he himself did not understand__that he ought not to take his great sons and go roaming the woods with them, when there was more than enough work to be done on the farm__  Truly, she had never looked that Erlend should go behnd the plough himself.  For that matter, he scarce the man to cope with a spell of real work.  But hers sons, could not be suffered to grow to  manhood as their father had done__learning but to handle arms, to hunt wild beasts and disport him with his horses__or hang over a draught-board with a priest whose talk it was to coax into the knight's son some little lore of Latin and of writing, of singing and playing on strings.  'Twas therefore, in chief, that she had kept the manor short of working folk__her sons would learn, she thought, from childhood on, that they must use them to husbandry.  There was small hope now for Erlend's sons in the knightly calling.

But 'twas hard to speak of this to Erlend.  For she held fast to this__never from her should her husband hear one word he could take for blame of his deeds or lamentation over the fate he had brought upon himself and his sons.  The harder was it for her to bring home to the father that his sons must needs use them to work themselves on their farm.

This entire section is pretty much showing how Erlend is restless living at Jorundgaard.  He is wasting away his days taking his sons out with him, rather than letting them learn to farm.  He has messed up his own life, and now it appears he really is not at all caring for his son's future.  

Sorry, I just can't agree Erlend fits the profile of a cowboy.  At least cowboys were responsible for their daily duties.  Cowboys knew what work needed to be done, and were ready and willing to do the hard work, they respected their cattle and land.  If these cowboys waited for Erlend to help them rescue these cattle, none would have survived!  Erlend is an irresponsible husband and father.  He is like a spoiled child, who has never grown up.  These chapters only make me even more furious with his behavior.  Kristin has all the responsibility of raising these seven sons, and tending to the help, and the land.  Yet, Kristin still struggles with worries for Erlend.

pg.  657  

Erlend!  Oh, Erlend!  She knew well that, in her inmost heart, she knew he was not so__careless__as he seemed.  He, that had been ever restless__'twas as though now he was ever still: as a stream of water, striking at last on a steep wall of rock, lets itself be turned aside, and oozes through the peat to make a pool, with marshland all around.  He passed his time on Jorundgaard, doing naught, and taking now one and now another of his sons to keep him company in nothing-doing.  Or he would set about breaking one of the young colts.  But at that he never made any hand__he was all too hasty__

God help me, but I just do not see any redeemable qualities in this man.  Kristin struggles with the Erlend she hopes him to be, and with the Erlend she knows him to be.   His actions time and again have shown her the true person he is, irresponsible, immature, and self absorbed.  Regardless of his upbringing, there comes a time a person takes responsibility and stop using his past for an excuse for his horrible behavior.  He has seven sons who need him to be a father to them, and instead he treats them like childhood friends.

Barb, With the utmost of respect, I watched the movie American Sniper.  I have seen interviews of Chris Kyle's wife.  Erlend could not even come close to being compared to this American hero.

[PatH]

I haven't gotten very far in this section, but I can't see Erlend EVER taking responsibility.

[PatH]

Unlike Kristin, who, as you pointed out, finds her choice harder than she thought, but deals with it, although crossly.

[BarbStAubrey]

ah but as a seafaring adventurer he was honing his skills - I do see him as responsible just as a cowboy when they move to town are out of place and seldom work in an office - they cannot wait for hunting season and they are working on the house or their vehicle, always several dogs, sharing all that with their children.

I do not see being a farmer is the end all be all - and so I simply see a clash of two cultures - I do not think Erlend messed up - he was loyal to a group who saw another way for Norway to get the attention it needed just as I do not think anyone today, who supports another for national leadership as having messed up if their attempt fails.

When you rescue someone who was being ill used by the opposing forces should not mean they have to live life as you do or everytime we ever rescued anyone from any enemy we would question their ability as a soldier or in this case as a sailor and a patriot -

I am so sorry to see that this discussion is about right and wrong or good and bad or measuring fatherhood using today's values when for generations a father had little to do with childrearing till boys could handle a gun or the plow or the sails, that there is supposidly proper life choices that are considered responsible where as years of practicing the lifestyle that was the heritage within a family is living irresponsibly - sad...

[Halcyon]

Erland.  I, for one, am attracted to Erland.  He's a challenge, elusive as a wisp of smoke, so brave he is foolhardy and he's loyal, not only to his beliefs but to his love of Kristin.  I realize he  had a brief fling but that did not alter his love for Kristin.  Kristin was and still is attracted to the bad boy in Erland and she knows she has won his heart.  She has caught that elusive wisp.   I don't think Simon is such a saint.  He too has an illegitimate daughter and didn't choose to be with his wife when she was giving birth but stayed with Kristin.  To me helping Kristin is a way for him to be near her for it's obvious he hasn't gotten over her.   

[bellamarie]

Barb,  

I am so sorry to see that this discussion is about right and wrong or good and bad or measuring fatherhood using today's values when for generations a father had little to do with childrearing till boys could handle a gun or the plow or the sails, that there is supposidly proper life choices that are considered responsible where as years of practicing the lifestyle that was the heritage within a family is living irresponsibly - sad...

I do not see being a farmer is the end all be all - and so I simply see a clash of two cultures

Farming is not the end all be all, but if your father has taken away your opportunities, because he is considered an adulterer, traitor, and untrustworthy, along with taken your chances of nobility from you, then like Kristin points out, they must learn farming for their future.

I am using only this author's words that show how irresponsible, self absorbed, undependable a husband and father he is.  The author is the person who created Erlend.  The author continuously keeps portraying him as immature and childish.  Using the quotes of Kristin and the author, they have not deemed him high and respected.  On the contrary they continue to point out how his actions have cost him respect and honor from family and friends, and has also cost his sons their future nobility. Kristin admittedly struggles with the fact Erlend is carefree, and not a good role model for their seven sons. Her words, not mine.  The author has decided to have Erlend be the person he is in the century he is in.  It has nothing to do with judging him or holding him to the standards of today.  You can fantasize about the Erlend you want to see him as, just as Kristin fantasizing for the Erlend she wishes for from time to time, be it as you may, but in fact this author has written this character as he is, flawed in so many ways.  The author has pointed out he is of no help in raising their sons.  The author has Erlend striking Kristin.  ALL the reasons I do not like him, is because this author has shown he is not someone with values I would want in a husband, father or friend.  

You can't rewrite this book, or character, due to wanting to make Erlend be a different person than the author has chosen him to be.

Are we all reading the same book, because I am quoting from my book the words of Kristin, which the author has written.  I have not seen any quotes so far to substantiate or warrants Erlend to be any different, than what the author has provided to us, and we are now into the third book of the trilogy.    

Halcyon, Yes, it is obvious Simon still loves Kristin, everyone can see that except for Kristin.

[bellamarie]

pg. 660

__Oh no, with Erlend's offspring there could be no mistaking who their father was.__When she was last in Nidaros, she had seen that child from Lensvik.  She had seen the child's face; in a single glance, but 'twas enough.  It was like other children's faces that had lain at her own breast__

Kristin overhears Arne and Erlend discussing he has another son by the woman he betrayed Kristin with.  

pg. 661

The Lensvik knight was so o'erjoyed at the coming of the son his wife had born last winter__'twas planin he had no doubt that he himself was the father.  "Ay, Thorolf himself must sure know best," Erlend had answered.  She knew that tone in his voice__he was standing now with downcast eyes and the little smile at one corner of his mouth.  But the folk were talking, saying the thing was not as it should be__"Oh the man must sure know best himself," said Erlend as before__  "Ay, ay, Erlend!  That one boy is heir to more than the seven sons you have by your wife__"  "For my seven sons shall I care myself, Arne__"  But at that she went down; she would not suffer them to talk any more of this thing.  Erlend looked a little out of countenance when he saw her.  

These paragraphs show just how much Kristin realizes where her choices have gotten her, she knows now Erlend has another son that will be noble, yet he has taken all the chances from her seven sons to have that rightful place.

pg. 666  

So, it was that she must go out into this ghostly night to take breath, when she felt nigh perishing__  She sat and let the bitter old thoughts come to her like old acquaintance.  And met them with other old well-known thought__in feigned excuse of Erlend__True, he had not craved this of her.  He had not laid upon her aught of the burden she had taken upon her shoulders.  He had but begotten seven sons on her.  "For my seven sons I shall care, Arne_"  God alone might know what the man meant by those words.  Like enough he had meant nothing__he had but said __

Erlend had not begged her to set Husaby and his estates a-going again.  He had not begged her fight for dear life to save him.  Like a chieftain he had suffered__that his goods be wasted, that his life be set on the hazard, that all he owned be lost.  Stripped and bare, he stood amidst mischance loftily unbowed and still; loftily still and unbowed he abode in her father's manor like some strange guest__

But all that was hers was her son's by right.  By right they claimed her sweat and blood and all her strength.  But, if so, the manor and she herself could lay rightful claim to them in return.  There had been no need for her to take the road to the saeter like any cottar's wife.  But at home, as things were now, she felt herself crushed and hemmed in on every side__so that she seemed to fail for breath.  Besides, she had needed to prove to herself that she could do a peasant woman's work.  True, toil and struggle had been hers every hour since she rode, a bride, into Erlend Nikulausson's manor__and saw that her one at least must fight to save the heritage of him she bore below her heart.  If the father could not, then she must be the one.  But now she must needs assure herself__that, if the pinch came, there was no piece of work she had set her maids and serving women to in the old days that she could not do with her own hands.  

Kristin is a strong-willed, hard working, determined woman, but how much heartbreak must Kristin have to bear by Erlend? Eline, her father, and others tried to warn her of what her life would be like with him, but she could not listen.  

We all think we know what is best, we all let our hearts lead us rather than our common sense from time to time.  I suppose this just shows us how much strife in life comes, from being prideful and sinful.  My heart breaks for her after reading these paragraphs.   

[PatH]

Yes, when she overheard that conversation, Kristin had already guessed that Sunniva had had Erlend's child; she had seen the baby in church, and it looked just like her own children did as babies.  It's also mentioned that Sunniva was much distraught when her brother, who was part of the plot, committed suicide in prison.  Obviously Sunniva knew nothing of his involvement.

[PatH]

The passage you quote from p 666 (starts on 725 in Nunnally) plus some of the surrounding passages make a powerful bit of writing.  You really feel how suffocated Kristin's been feeling, her need to prove herself, and also to lose her frustrations by immersing completely in hard work--hard, but work she enjoys.

Mostly I don't notice differences in meaning when I compare translations, but there's a slight one here.  Nunnally says: "For that matter, she had demonstrated before to her nursemaids and serving women that there wasn't any kind of work she wasn't capable of doing with her own hands."

I don't know how clear it is in Archer, but it's pretty obliquely stated in Nunnally; somewhere in this period Kristin has had a miscarriage.

[bellamarie]

These chapters are covering so much I care barely keep up.  I love that Kristin, Erlend, Simon and Ramborg are living close enough to be in each other's lives, and their children can be close.  Kristin comes to care for Andres when he is sick since Ramborg is pregnant.  Kristin decides to go and get the special potion to treat Andres, since he is not getting better.  Simon tries to stop her but she feels it's the only thing left to help little Anders.  He indeed does respond and gets better.  Simon gives Kristin a special clasp that Lavrans had given to him as a parting gift the day he left the manor.

"This seems to me to be all too great a gift," she said low, with eyes cast down.  Simon laughed a little as he answered:  "You will have need of many such, Kristin__when the time comes for you to send forth all your sons with bridal gifts__"  Kristin looked at him and said:  "You know well, Simon__I deem that the things that have come to you from him__you know that I hold you as dear as though you were his own son__"  "Do you so__?"  He touched her cheek lightly with the back of his hand stroking it downwards, and smiled, a strange little smile, while he spoke as to a child:  "Ay, ay, Kristin, I have marked it__"

The two of them have such a warm relationship. Simon as much as he has loved her all these years, he has held his respect for her, by never voicing or acting on his affection for her.  

[PatH]

This chapter is very powerful.  Kristin sees that Andres may not recover, and harks back to the pagan black magic she learned from Fru Ashild.  It's a sin, and she never dared do it for her own children when they were in danger.  Why is she willing to do it now, for Simon's son?  So she goes to the churchyard, cuts the turf from a grave, and pays for it with old gold.  It's eerie and scary, and she's filled with terrors, some Christian, some pagan.  And it works.  The boy recovers.

[PatH]

The clasp is a rather ironic gift, since the occasion Lavrans gave it to Simon was their parting when Simon broke his engagement with Kristin.

[bellamarie]

Yes, Kristin used the black magic potion, and she and Simon agree they will keep this between them.  Kristin feels she must do all possible to save Simon's son, since he has done so much to help her with freeing Erlend, being there for her and her sons.

So now it seems Simon has saved Erlend from a death sentence in prison, Kristin has saved Andres from death, and Erlend jumps in the fight and saves Simon, by killing Holmgeir Moisesson.  No sooner does Erlend do this good deed for Simon, he seems to mock Simon and says:

pg. 721

"Ay,'twas foolish of you too, Simon, that you bethought you not to make for the door at the first__"  "How so?"  asked Simon, something shortly.  "Because you were without__?"  "Nay__" there was a little laugh in Erlend's voice.  "Ay, that too__though I thought not on that.  But narrow the door, see up, they could not have come at you more than one at a time__  And besides, 'tis wonder often to see how quick folks come to their wits again once they get out beneath open sky.  Much do I marvel now that no more than one man was slain."

Erlend mentions Kristin loves Simon like a brother, and Simon says she mentioned it in the summer when she helped save Andres.  Why is Erlend even bringing this up?  Is Erlend saying he saved Simon for the sake of Kristin?

Simon is already wondering what it will bring him now that he owes Erlend his life.  

Erlend then goats Simon again with this: pg. 724

"But you must mind, Simon,"  said he softly, "there goes an old world: Many a man wins what is meant for another, but another's lot none may win."  Simon lifted his head with a sudden start.  Slowly he grew blood-red in the face__the veins in his temples stood out like dark, twisted cords.  Erlend glanced at the other__and withdrew his eyes swiftly.  Then he too reddened__a strangely fine and girlish flush spreading under his dark skin.  He sat still, shy and abashed, with mouth a little open, like a child.  Simon rose vehemently and went over to the bed.

These two men no sooner bond, and then Simon finds out his brother Gyrd Darre was in the plot with Erlend, and used the family seal on the letters that Gaute had burned, when Erlend was captured.  Simon is begging Erlend to tell him the truth and he refuses.  

pg 731

But Kristin fixed her great eyes full upon him__they were dark with sorrow and anger;  "Could you believe this thing of Erlend__that he could betray you so?"  "I believed naught," said Simon hotly, "I believed 'twas foolish babble of that young scamp there__"  "Nay, Simon__ I will not have you go with me,"  said Kristin, low.  He saw that she was unspeakably hurt and sorrowful.

 Simon then learns that Ramborg suspected Erlend had others in his plot.  She throws it in Simon's face he was too busy saving Erlend for Kristin, and could not be home for the birth of their child.  Ramborg finally confronts Simon  

pg. 751  

"Simon__seems it not to you that I deserve you should love me more than Kristin?  Wicked and false she was to you__I have followed you about like a little lap-dog all these years__"  "I know you have not broken God's law, or cast away faith and honour__"  "Never have I spoken one word to you sister or touched her with my hand in otherwise than I can answer fro on judgement day__God and Saint Simon the apostle, are my witness__"  Ramborg nodded silently.  "Think you your sister would have met me as she has done all these years, if she thought as you do, that I loved her with sinful lust?  Nay, then you know not Kristin."  "Oh, she has never so much as thought whether any other man save Erlend bears love to her.  It scarce comes to her mind that we others are flesh and blood__"  "Ay, belike you speak truly there, Ramborg,"  said Simon calmly, "But then sure you can understand for yourself how witless 'tis for you to plague me with jealousy."  Ramborg drew away her hands.  "I meant it not so either, Simon.  But never have you cared for me as you cared for her.  She is forever in your thought even yet__of me you think seldom, when you see me not."  "'Tis not my doing, Ramborg, that a man's heart is so made that what is writ thereon when 'tis young and fresh stands more deeply graven than all the runes cut afterward__"  "Have you never heard the word that says: a man's heart is that first thing that quickens in his mother's womb, and the last thing in him to die?" said Rambor, softly.  "Nay__Is there a word that says the like__?"  Ay, and it may well be true too.  He stroked her white cheek lightly.

These chapters let us get to know a lot about Simon.  He is a man of faith, conscious, honor and loyalty, but as much as he was thankful for Erlend's help saving his life, he now is as much hurt by learning how Erlend had betrayed him with his brother Gryd.  Simon also realizes even in trying to hide his love for Kristin, and never making a move towards her, others were well aware of his love for her, especially Erlend and Ramborg.  Simon is no saint, he has his flaws, and he can't really make his heart feel differently than what it does, no matter how hard he tries.  Kristin is like an addiction for him.  He has loved her so for long, and much like Lavrans and Ragnfrid's marriage, Simon and Ramborg live in a marriage with one having desires for another.  And much like Lavrans loved Ragnfrid as much as his heart allows him, Simon loves Ramborg as much as his heart allows him, considering he loves Kristin more.

Now that all has been revealed, how will all of this effect the four of them, and their relationships?

PatH., Are we ready to go on to Part II DEBTORS?  It is about 150 pages.  Should we split it into a two part reading, or tackle all of it?   I'm up for anything.

[PatH]

Bellamarie, I think it's pretty much up to us two to set the pace.  I bet Halcyon has already finished (right, Halcyon?) and I think Barb has a lot of other stuff on her plate, and may fall behind whatever the pace.  Let's go fairly fast; reading the first 4 chapters now, and the rest a day later while we're talking about the first part.

Does that sound good?

[bellamarie]

That sounds great!  The story is moving really quickly now so I'm anxious to see where this all ends. 

Simon and Erlend have seemed to make a good effort to be there for each other, but I think the fact the two of them both are in love with Kristin, prevents them from bonding.  Simon has much mistrust of Erlend due to his actions of the past, and Erlend sees Simon's heart is for Kristin.  Poor Ramborg, I do feel sorry for her, but she did know all the years before she married Simon he has never stopped loving Kristin. 

Emily Dickinson’s Ultra-Famous: “The Heart Wants What the Heart Wants”

[Halcyon]

Right you are PatH.  Now I'm very involved with summer Latin.  This has been a most interesting and lively discussion!  Carry on Bellamarie and PatH.

[bellamarie]

Oh dear so Simon and Erlend have parted friendship and none of the family are now involved with each other, due to Erlend's betrayal. 

pg.  755 

She took this unfriendship 'twixt Erlend and Simon Darre hardly.  Ramborg was her only sister.  And when she thought on it, that now Simon would come among them no more, she understood fully, for the first time, how fond she had come to be of this man and how much of thanks she owed him__in the troublous lot that was hers she had had a sure stay in his trusty friendship.  And she knew now that, all over the country-side, the folk would have a new titbit of gossip__that yonder Jorundgaard people had broken with Simon of Formo too.  Simon and Ramborg were liked and held in esteem by every soul.  And for the most part she herself, her husband, and her sons were looked on with distrust and misliking__that she had known for long.  Now would they be left quite unfriended__  Kristin felt as though she must sink into the ground with sorrow and shame the first Sunday when she came on to the church-green and saw Simon standing there, a little way off, in a cluster of yeo-men.  He bowed his head in greeting to her and hers, but 'twas the first time he come not forward to shake hands and chat with them.

There is great unrest in Norway,

the great lords south and west in the realm and throughout the Uplands were som miscontent with King Magnus' rule__"twas said they had openly threatened to take to arms, to rouse the commons, and bring Sir Magnus Eiriksson to govern after their will and counsel, or else take for king his mother's sister's son, the young Jon Haftorsson of Sudrheim__his mother, the Lady Agnes, was daughter to King Haakon Haalegg, of blessed memory.

Naakkve seems to think with this it may turn favor back with Erlend.   Kristin overhears them talking and advices Erlend to keep in mind they are too young to share certain talk with.  Kristin then overhears Naakkve and Gaute talking loosely about women, and she is upset to hear Naakkve speak with little respect. It seems Kristin is losing control of the husband and sons. 

pg. 791

"Methinks you are more childish than the lads, Erlend!

 

Ut oh, all hell is breaking lose!
 
792

"So__ you comfort you with the thought, Erlend, as you sit there in my father's high-seat, that your sons shall be saved by his prayers, even as they are fed by his lands__"  Erlend grew pale: "Mean you, Kristin__that I am unworthy to sit in Lavrans Bjorgulfson's high-seat__"  His wife's lips moved, but could bring forth no sound.  Erlend rose and stood moveless:  "Mean you this__for then say I, as sure as God is above us both__I will sit there never more.  "Answer." said he again, as she stood speechless.  A long tremor shook the woman's body.  "He was__ a better master__he who__sat there before you"__"Heed your tongue now, Kristin!"  Swiftly Erlend strode a step or two nearer.  She stood upright with a start:  "Ay, strike me__I have borne that too ere now; I can bear it again."  "Strike you__I thought not on it."  He stood with his hand resting on the board; again they gazed at one another, and again his face had that strange far-off calm which she had seen on it at some rare times.  Now it drove her to distraction.  She knew she was in the right__Erlend's talk was witless, reckless; but the face of his made her feel as though all wrong was hers.  She looked at him, and sick with dread herself at what she said, she spoke:  "I fear me 'twill not be in my sons that your line will flourish again in the Trondheim country__"  Erlend flushed blood-red:  "You could not forbear to mind me of Sunniva Olavsdatter, I see__"  "'Twas not I who named her, but you."  Erlend reddened yet more deeply.  "Have you never thought, Kristin__that you were not wholly without blame in that__mischance__  "Mind you that night in Nidaros__I came and stood before your bed.  Most humble was I, and sorrowful for that I had offended against you, my wife__I came to beg of you__to forgive me my wrong.  Your answer was to bid me go and lay me where I had lain the night before__"  "Could I know that you had lain by your kinsman's wife__?"  Erlend stood a little.  He grew pale, and again red.  Then he turned and went from the room without a word.  The wife did not stir__long she stood moveless, her clenched hands pressed up beneath her chin, staring into the light.  Then she raised her head with a jerk__drew a long breath.  Some time he must endure to hear it__

Then she grew ware of the sound of horse's hoofs in the courtyard__heard by its gait that 'twas a horse being led by a housecarl.  She stole to the door and out into the penthouse, stood behind the doorpost, and peered out. 

WOW!   Erlend has stormed out to live in the house in Haugen, where Lady Aashild lived.  He has been gone for months now and who would guess_____________  Simon in injured, Kristin has come to care for him, and he dies an honorable death.  Before Simon dies, he and Kristin have a talk and he encourages Kristin to go to Erlend and mend their marriage.

I am drained from reading these chapters.  Phew!! 

[PatH]

A few final comments about Honor Among Kin before going on to Debtors.

Erlend is terrible husband material, and has neither the ability nor the desire to run a farm well, but he does have some abilities, and in this section we get a rare chance to see him in action.  Erlend and Simon have traveled to Kvam to settle a mixed-up legal property issue.  Simon is trying hard to figure things out; Erlend asks to see the documents, looks at them, summarizes what the legal situation is, and what the likely outcomes would be from their various possible courses of action.  Then he proposes a solution that will more or less satisfy everyone, gets them to agree to it, and helps draft the document.  He has the skill to figure out the solution, and the persuasiveness and appearance of authority to get it accepted by the parties.

Then Simon gets in a fight, and Erlend saves his life by joining in, and by having the strategic sense to get them through the narrow door, where their attackers have to meet them one at a time, and will be calmed by the cold outdoors.  That evening Erlend stresses how important it is for Simon to write his report of killing a man and turn it in immediately.

Erlend can be useful in the right circumstances.

[bellamarie]

Yes, PatH.,  I was so glad to finally see something positive of Erlend, yet it appears he turns around just minutes later and takes his good deed and talents to ridicule Simon for not having thought of it.  What is it about Erlend, the author continues to take every good thing, and turn it into a negative, shortly after?  

I agree, Erlend has a good thinking head on his shoulders when it comes to situations such as these.  He has used his knowledge in law and property, to go behind Kristin's back and sell off parts of her land, and to treat renters unfairly.  In this case, he used his knowledge to settle a dispute which had a positive outcome.

Did you feel Simon almost resented Erlend's knowledge and talents at this time?  I thought possibly Simon did, and yet I also felt Simon didn't like being in Erlend's debt, even though it was really an even wash, since Simon had saved Erlend's life from prison.

I have to hand it to Simon for standing up for the honor of Ragnfrid and Lavrans.  Why didn't Erlend come to their defense when Holmgeir said,

"I trow well he had no such sins to atone for that he should need__" the man smirked a little __"had I lived a virtuous Christian life as Lavrans Bjorgulfsson__and had been wedded to that unglad woman, Ragnfrid Ivarsdatter__I had rather wept for the sins I had not wrought__" 

It was an automatic reaction, for Simon to spring up and strike Holmgeir hard on the mouth .

[PatH]

I have to hand it to Simon for standing up for the honor of Ragnfrid and Lavrans.  Why didn't Erlend come to their defense when Holmgeir said....

Erlend wasn't there.  He had just gone to get the horses, and didn't re-enter the room until Simon had already killed Holmgeir.  As they leave, Erlend asks Simon: "How the Devil could all of you get into such a quarrel in such a short time?"  But I don't think Erlend would have been so quick or so touchy to defend Lavrans.  Simon truly loved his father-in-law, and knew things that made Holmgeir's digs hit home.  I don't think Erlend is making fun of Simon with his questions, though.

Did you feel Simon almost resented Erlend's knowledge and talents at this time?  I thought possibly Simon did, and yet I also felt Simon didn't like being in Erlend's debt, even though it was really an even wash, since Simon had saved Erlend's life from prison.

Absolutely yes, to both.  Simon is really irritated when Erlend does a better job at figuring out the dispute, and it's even worse for him because he knows he's being unreasonable.

I think one of the things that has kept things bearable for Simon is that Erlend and Kristin owe him big time.  Simon spent almost two years, neglected his wife, used up his credit with the men in power, and alienated himself from some of his social circles to save Erlend's life.  What keeps him going in the difficult position of living as their neighbor is knowing he has the moral high ground.  Now he's lost it.  Kristin has risked her soul to save his son, and Erlend has saved his life.  This is hard for him to take.

[bellamarie]

Thank you PatH., for clarifying this, I agree with you on all points.  I went back and read it again.  Simon has felt he lost the moral high ground, because he has slain a man he did not intend to.  The fight got out of control, and resulted in one dying and others being wounded.  But Simon was in fact trying to honor Ragnfrid's name.  He does not like feeling he owes his life to Erlend, even though it is really a wash, for him saving Erlend's life.  Simon did marvel at the fitted body, the agility, and the quickness of Erlend.  He realized Erlend had skills, talents, and a bright mind in all aspects of this land deal and battle.  Simon's pride is wounded. This I see as sinful, stubborn pride, on Simon's part. Ever since he found Kristin and Erlend in the brothel, he has been able to hold this high and mighty attitude, and to top it off he called off the betrothal looking even more the bigger person.  He did in fact neglect Ramborg, for the sake of Kristin.  He truly has his faults, even if they do not seem as many as Erlend.   

It does not take long, before Simon finds out how Erlend betrayed him with his brother, in the plot to overthrow the king, so this now gives Simon reason to feel high and mighty once again, over Erlend. Simon now has reason to finally withdraw away from Erlend and Kristin.  I think he feels better never having to look at Erlend, knowing his betrayal, but more so he owes him his life.  Seems with Erlend just saving his life, Simon could have been a bit less harsh on Erlend for the betrayal.  But then Simon realizes how much a part of the plot his brother was involved in, and how much it could have cost him, had he been found out.  Erlend did not give up any of the people who were in on the plot with him, and was willing to die if he must, not revealing anyone else involved.  So, just as I begin seeing some better qualities of Erlend, we advance to Part Two DEBTORS, and all hell breaks loose.   

[PatH]

Back to your post 474, dealing with the first 4 chapters of Debtors, taking things in no particular order:

There is great unrest in Norway

Dissatisfaction with King Magnus continues.  He doesn't seem to be all that interested in doing a good job with Norway.  Now they're trying to replace him with his mother's sister's son Jon.  This isn't going to get anywhere.  It's now 1338, and in 1343 Magnus will actually be forced to turn Norway over to the rule of his child son Haakon.  That must mean another regency.  I don't know who the regent will be.

It seems Kristin is losing control of the husband and sons.

She's always been rather protective, and Erlend's casual approach plus the fact that she can't rely on him to keep any of the family protected or take care of them drive Kristin frantic.

What about their final quarrel?  Is either of them in the right?  Could they have managed to avoid the unfortunate outcome?

Notice the significance of where Erlend goes.  Haugen is the only bit of land left that Erlend himself owns.  (Munan had inherited it from his mother Ashild, but it seemed too haunted to him, and he deeded it over to Erlend).  What other significance could Haugen have?