Kristin Lavransdatter

[JoanK]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

April/May Book Club Online

Kristin Lavransdatter
by Sigrid Undset

This Nobel prize-winning book is the tumultuous story of the daughter of a 14th century Norwegian nobleman-farmer.   I loved it when I first read it decades ago, and now there’s a new translation which makes it even better. Schedule: April 21-25  Jørundgaard, Chapters 1-4           April 26-? Jørundgaard, Chapters 5-7 Questions: Chapter 1: How does the medieval life seem to you?  Can you imagine yourself there? How do Kristin’s feelings for her two parents differ? On the trip in the mountains, Kristin thinks she sees an elf-maiden beckoning to her.  What do you think really happened?  Why does Undset include this incident? Chapters 2-4: As he shows Kristin the church at Hamar, Brother Edvin chats to her about art.  What do we learn about cultural influences in Norway? Ragnfrid seems terribly guilt-ridden.  Why do you suppose this is? Fru Aashild reminds Kristin of the dwarf-woman.  What does this suggest?  Is it important? Do you think any of Aashild’s remedies did any good?

Discussion Leader: PatH

[JoanK]

"Fru Aashild reminds Kristin of the dwarf-woman."

Thank you for pointing this out -- it blew by me when I read.

Again it reminds me of the feeling I had throughout the reading that there are always two worlds there: the everyday world we all know and another darker world.

there are two ways I read this. In folk tales, the darker world always overwhelms the everyday world, and the main character is lost to it. So I wonder if (and when) this might happen to Kristen. her beauty and golden hair seems like a danger, tempting this other world to come for her.

On the other hand, maybe this is just what life in Medieval Norway was like. Everyone believed in this dark world, and saw glimpses of it wherever they went. Maybe Kristen will just continue to live with this mixture.

[bellamarie]

JoanK.,  I am getting the feeling we are dealing with two worlds here. 

Lady Aashild and Ragnfrid know the darker/witch/dwarf/magic world, and Kristin is unaware of it.  Kristin's beauty seems to attract those in this other world to her.  Why would this be?  Lady Aashild mentions her sister's son "Erland Nikulausson of Husaby" might have been a good bride groom for Kristin.  I wonder how Ragnfrid would feel about Lady Aashild fixing Kristin up with the witch side of the world?   Not so well, is my guess.

[PatH]

I wonder how Ragnfrid would feel about Lady Aashild fixing Kristin up with the witch side of the world?   Not so well, is my guess.

That's my guess too, given Ragnfrid's strict piety.

[Halcyon]

Do you think any of Aashild’s remedies did any good?

But whenever Fru Aashild came over to her, Ulvhild's face would light up with joy.  Eagerly she drank the refreshing and sleep inducing brews that Fru Aashild prepared for her.  She never complained when the woman attended to her...

Fru Aashild seemed to have a calming effect on Ulvhild and potions that helped the child sleep could only ease her pain and assist the recovery process. 

Kristin collected dew from cabbage leaves and Lady's Mantle.  Several summers ago I bought a Lady's Mantle at a farmer's market.  The vendor told me if I collected the morning dew and used it on my face I would have beautiful youthful skin.  I've never tried it but it was fascinating to read someone doing just that. 

[PatH]

It looks like it's time to move on.  Do you agree?  Could we start talking about the next section Sunday?  It's pretty short, only 35 pages.  This will be chapters 5-7, which will finish Jørundgaard, the first section of the book.

Barb and Annie, I know you got a late start.  Will this work for you?  We can stay in Jørundgaard, both sections, until you are ready to move on.

[PatH]

Halcyon, that's fascinating about the Lady's Mantle.  Some folk traditions live on, sometimes for good reasons.  It's a good thing I've given up on beautiful youthful skin though, because I don't get enough dew around here to wet my face.  Besides I've earned every wrinkle by hard work. 

Folk remedies are interesting; a lot of them have some real basis for working, but not all.  Aashild must have had some local remedy that was a pain reliever or sleep promoter, and Ulvhild's trust would help her relax.

[BarbStAubrey]

I'm fine - I find it interesting to compare the place in history this is taking place in this story by what was going on in Britain and the continent at this time.

1301 - Edward I of England invests his baby son Edward as Prince of Wales
1305 - The English capture and execute William Wallace
1306 - New Scottish rebellion against English rule led by Robert Bruce. Robert I, the Bruce crowned King of Scotland (to 1329) at Scone
1307 - Edward I dies on march north to crush Robert Bruce. Edward II, King of England (to 1327)
1310 - English barons appoint 21 peers, the Lords Ordainers, to manage Edward II's household
1312 - Order of Knights Templar abolished
1314 - Battle of Bannockburn: Robert Bruce defeats Edward II and makes Scotland independent
1326 - Queen Isabella and Roger Mortimer sail from France with an army to rebel against Edward II of England
1327 - Parliament declares Edward II deposed, and his son accedes to the throne as Edward III. Edward II is hideously murdered, nine months later

The Great Famine of 1315–1317 (occasionally dated 1315–1322) was the first of a series of large-scale crises that struck Europe early in the fourteenth century. Most of continental Europe (extending east to Russia and south to Italy) and Great Britain were affected. The famine caused millions of deaths over an extended number of years and marked a clear end to the period of growth and prosperity from the eleventh to thirteenth centuries.

The Great Famine started with bad weather in spring 1315. Universal crop failures lasted through 1316 until the summer harvest in 1317, and Europe did not fully recover until 1322. The period was marked by extreme levels of crime, disease, mass death, and even cannibalism and infanticide. The crisis had consequences for the Church, state, European society, and for future calamities to follow in the fourteenth century.

[BarbStAubrey]

huh I did not realize how entwined the vikings were with the Irish  - this takes place before the 1307 that is one of the early dates for our story.

The Vikings conducted extensive raids in Ireland. They founded Limerick in 812, then established a settlement near Waterford in 853, invaded Dublin and maintained control until 1169, and founded trading ports in Cork in the 9th century. The Vikings and Scandinavians settled down and intermixed with the Irish. Literature, crafts, and decorative styles in Ireland and Britain reflected Scandinavian culture. Vikings traded at Irish markets in Dublin. Excavations found imported fabrics from England, Byzantium, Persia and central Asia. Dublin became so crowded by the 11th century that houses were constructed outside the town walls.

The Vikings pillaged monasteries on Ireland's west coast in 795 and then spread out to cover the rest of the coastline... During the first 40 years, the raids were conducted by small, mobile Viking groups. By 830, the groups consisted of large fleets of Viking ships. From 840, the Vikings began establishing permanent bases at the coasts... The Irish became accustomed to the Viking presence. In some cases they became allies and married each other.

In 832, a Viking fleet of about 120 invaded kingdoms on Ireland’s northern and eastern coasts... During the mid-830s, raids began to push deeper into Ireland, as opposed to just touching the coasts.  After 840, the Vikings had several bases in strategic locations dispersed throughout Ireland.

In 838, a small Viking fleet entered the River Liffey in eastern Ireland. The Vikings set up a base, which the Irish called a longphort. This longphort eventually became Dublin... The Vikings also established longphorts in Cork, Limerick, Waterford, and Wexford.

One of the last major battles involving Vikings was the Battle of Clontarf on 23 April 1014, in which Vikings fought both for the Irish over-king Brian Boru's army and for the Viking-led army opposing him. Irish and Viking literature depict the Battle of Clontarf as a gathering of this world and the supernatural. For example, witches, goblins, and demons were present. A Viking poem portrays the environment as strongly pagan. Valkyries chanted and decided who would live and die.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ok what I am getting from all of this - another aside - during this time the vikings ships are of low draft and can easily be dragged over land and so taking interior water ways were able to push through central Europe all the way to Turkey bringing back all sorts of trade goods from far away lands.

And so what I am seeing here is a successful proud people - of the middle and late middle ages the Norseman are in their golden era - England has not reached yet its golden era - Germany is so broken into small holdings and France always had an aura about itself since they never broke with the Church and see themselves as the extension of the Roman Empire taking on for themselves that world success that shows up in their art and letters.

Now you have the Scandinavian area almost like the U.S. today - new as compared to the glories of Europe and yet we have made the accomplishments that run the world today and we've been doing it for the past couple of hundred years - that is what Scandinavia must have been with its unique ability to explore and trade all over the Continent, Greenland was theirs and they even venture into the new World. The fact they are an outpost living crudely compared to the middle class of the Continent and even to Britain, like the US we lived for a couple of hundred years crudely compared to England and only matched their level of living standards in the late nineteenth century - so too Kristin and her family is living in a golden era that gives everyone a sense they can do whatever it takes to succeed. No matter how rustic their life they  are not slaves to any man.    

[bellamarie]

Yes, PatH., I am ready to move on to the next chapters.

[Halcyon]

I'm ready too.

[PatH]

Okay, we can start talking about it tomorrow.  Although some important things happen, it's short, and will probably not take long to discuss.

Kristin is now fifteen, and is dealing with different issues.

[PatH]

The Great Famine of 1315–1317 (occasionally dated 1315–1322) was the first of a series of large-scale crises that struck Europe early in the fourteenth century. Most of continental Europe (extending east to Russia and south to Italy) and Great Britain were affected. The famine caused millions of deaths over an extended number of years and marked a clear end to the period of growth and prosperity from the eleventh to thirteenth centuries.

The Great Famine started with bad weather in spring 1315. Universal crop failures lasted through 1316 until the summer harvest in 1317, and Europe did not fully recover until 1322. The period was marked by extreme levels of crime, disease, mass death, and even cannibalism and infanticide. The crisis had consequences for the Church, state, European society, and for future calamities to follow in the fourteenth century.

Thank goodness I'm pretty sure we aren't going to see any cannibalism here.  That bad weather was the start of a climate change--a cold spell of several centuries, which affected all of Europe and finished off the Greenland settlements.

[PatH]

What does anyone think of Ragnhild spending the night crying herself to sleep in the barn after the Christmas feast?

[Halcyon]

The Christmas feast.... too much drinking, off color stories, fighting, a pushy priest from her brother's, a rift with her kinsmen and an invalid child to care for.....a bit overwhelming for Ragnfrid or the thought that her faith was letting her down.  Or why were people behaving in such a manner on a Holy Day.

I wondered why Kristin's last name was Lavransdatter then realized it came from both her parents, Lavrans Bjorgulfson and  Ragnfrid Ivarsdatter.

[JoanK]

There's definitely more going on with Ragnold than we know. It could be her remembering the three sons who aren't there, but their may be something else too.

[BarbStAubrey]

A store house in Norway still in use over 600 years later



Wheee found it - an example of how buildings were protected from rats and mice - see the large round stones under the house - that is it - the rats and mice could not walk upside down for that long a distance and so they fell off.

[BarbStAubrey]

Woman in re-made 14th century dress - Bocksten Man; well preserved man's clothing 2nd half of 14th century, Vaberg Museum - Norwegian shoe from 1300

BooHoo not nearly as colorful and romantic as the clothing heavily embroidered and worn in the seventeenth and eighteenth century which was closer to my visual while reading the story. ah so...

[PatH]

Halcyon, they seem to do a lot of drinking.  You notice that even the children are sometimes given sips of ale.

Oops, I meant to explain about last names.  You've pretty much figured it out. People didn't pass last names down the generations; they were named for their father plus -son or -datter for "son" or "daughter".  Lavrans' father was Bjørgulf, so he is Lavrans Bjørgulfssøn.  Kristin is Lavransdatter, and if any of her brothers had lived, they would have been Lavranssøn.  If Kristin marries, lets say someone named Thorfin, her sons will be Thorfinssøn, and her daughters will be Thorfinsdatter.

[PatH]

Good-looking storehouse--the first one.  So that's how they kept the rats from just climbing up the stilts.

Those costumes are plain, but I'm guessing they had something fancier for special occasions.  Here's the costume wardrobe of a woman who likes to make historical costumes.  She seems to be some sort of expert.  If you click on a costume you get more pictures of it and sometimes others, plus more text.

http://web.comhem.se/~u31138198/costumegallery.html

And here's an infinitely detailed description of how she made the grey dress with the blue hood for part of her master's thesis.

http://web.comhem.se/~u41200125/Uvdal31.html

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  

What does anyone think of Ragnhild spending the night crying herself to sleep in the barn after the Christmas feast?

I think Ragnfrid got up and left to go outside because of the conversation taking place.  When people drink too much, they have a tendency to say things they would not say, or reveal when sober.  I think this conversation is revealing once again, the "tail of evil," and makes me think Lady Aashild had something to do with Ragnfrid and her marriage.

Brother Aasgaut said, pg. 52  "You should not forget, Sira Sigurd, our reverend Father Ingjald is your overlord, too--we know enough of you in Hamar.  You wallow in all good things in Sundbu, never thinking that you are vowed to other work that to do Trond eye-service, helping him in all wrong and injustice, to the peril of his soul and the minishing of the rights of Holy Church.  Have you never heard how it fares with the false and unruly priests who hatch out devices against their spiritual fathers and those in authority?  Wot you not of that time when the angels took St. Thomas of Canterbury to the door of hell and let him peep in?  He wondered much that he saw none of the priests who had set themselves up against him, as you have set yourself against your bishop.  He was about to praise God's mercy, for the angel bade the devil lift his tail a little, and out there came, with a great bang and foul smell of sulphur, all the priests and learned men who had wrought against the good of the Church.  Thus did he come to know whither they had gone.

"There you lie, monk," said the priest.  "I have heard that tale too; only they were not priests, but beggar-monks, who came from the rear of the devil like wasps out of a wasp-nest."  Old Jon laughed louder than all the serving-folk, and roared: "There were both sorts, I'll be bound_"  "Then the devil must have a fine broad tail," said Bjorn Gunnarson; and Lady Aashild smiled, and said:  "Ay, have you not heard that all evil drags a long tail behind it?"  

"Be still, Lady Aashild," cried Sira Sigurd:  "You sit here as though you were mistress in the house, and not Ragnfrid.  But 'tis strange you could not help her child__you no more of that strong water you dealt in once, which could make a whole the sheep already boiling in the pot, and turn women to maids in the bridal_bed?  Think you I know not of the wedding in this very parish where you made a bath for the bride that was no maid__"

Sira Eirik sprang up, gripped the other priest by the shoulder and thigh, and flung him right over the table, so that the jugs and tankards were overturned and food and drink ran upon the cloths and floor, while Sira Sigurd lay his length upon the ground with torn garments.  Eirik leaped over the board, and would have struck him again, roaring about the tumult:  "Hold your filthy mouth, priest of hell that you are__"  Lavrans strove to part them, but Ragnfrid stood, white as death, by the board, and wrung her hands.

Lady Aashild then makes a merry tale, and no one saw that Ragnfrid had left the room.  This has got to be part of the secret that is being kept.  This upset Ragnfrid, I think, because of the truth coming so close to being revealed.  This is why I think she cried herself to sleep.  She curled up into a fetal position, and thrust her hands into her bosom.  She is wrought with shame, fear and contrition, for some reason and I think this statement has something to do with it all....  " Think you I know not of the wedding in this very parish where you made a bath for the bride that was no maid__"  I'm beginning to think the tail of evil Lady Aashild speaks of, is  Ragnfrid not being a virgin on her wedding day.

In The Canterbury Tales, a party of twenty-nine pilgrims gathers at the Tabard Inn in Southwark in preparation for their pilgrimage to the shrine of St.Thomas Becket in Canterbury.

If you read The Canterbury Tales, it gives a similarity to what happened at the Christmas feast table.  There are many different walks of life telling a tale.  And in many of the tales there is mention of a woman sleeping with a man, infidelity, trickery, sinfulness, nobleness, priests, etc., and then merry tales to distract from the others.  Seems Undset has used The Canterbury Tales as a reenactment here, only they have added St. Thomas in one of their tales.

http://www.gradesaver.com/the-canterbury-tales/study-guide/summary

http://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/c/the-canterbury-tales/summary
 
Chaucer, however, came up with the ingenious literary device of having a pilgrimage, a technique that allowed him to bring together a diverse group of people. Thus Chaucer's narrators represent a wide spectrum of society with various ranks and occupations. From the distinguished and noble Knight, we descend through the pious abbess (the Prioress), the honorable Clerk, the rich landowner (the Franklin), the worldly and crude Wife, and on down the scale to the low, vulgar Miller and Carpenter, and the corrupt Pardoner.

Aside from the high literary standard of The Canterbury Tales, the work stands as a historical and sociological introduction to the life and times of the late Middle Ages.

http://courseweb.stthomas.edu/medieval/chaucer/canterburytales.htm

Looking back, it’s difficult to remember just when the idea came to create The Canterbury Tales, but it must have been around 1387. The work was never finished, but what was written amounted to about 17,000 lines, written for the most part in heroic couplets....... People have often wondered why I put the Tales together. Well, let’s just say I’m playing with the “estates satire” to give a picture of a society in the process of change in the England of the 1380s and 1390s.

[BarbStAubrey]

secret or not I would be upset and see my Christmas celebration in ruin if someone was being flung across the table and the general uproar pursues, enough to go off by myself and once I hit the safety and comfort of my bed I too would be in tears - after all Christmas come but once a year and is probably the only joyful playtime during the many cold months plus an atmosphere of uproar sets the tone for the next few months so that life will be even harder to maintain any sort of order much less humor.

I get the impression she is the keeper of the calm and peace needed to get anything done since the men, including her husband lean towards a lighter mood that is not as conducive to the repetitive work that it takes to get through the days during the cold weather when they are living in tight quarters to keep warm. I think drinking as they do can bring out all sorts of talk that may or may not be completely true and she really has no family protector if someone says the slightest thing negative and then, if they did how does she maintain the atmosphere needed for folks to live check to jowl for months on end.

Ok Pat did you read anything to explain the reason for that tail on the hats or caps or whatever they are called that both the men and the women sport - at least your link gave it a name 'liripipe' - but why - certainly does not seem attractive as a fashion statement - well I just did a bunch of web sites about 14c hoods and liripipe and a couple seem to think they were a decoration however, one said it was more typical to pull the hood away from the face and then using the liriipipe it was wound around gathering it all into a turban. One site showed a nice trim with a blanket stitch as the decorative feature at the edge of the hood opening and along the edge of the cape.

[BarbStAubrey]

Secret or not. I would be upset and see my Christmas celebration in ruin if someone was being flung across the table and the general uproar pursues, enough to go off by myself and once I hit the safety and comfort of my bed I too would be in tears - after all Christmas come but once a year and is probably the only joyful playtime during the many cold months plus an atmosphere of uproar sets the tone for the next few months so that life will be even harder to maintain any sort of order much less humor.

I get the impression she is the keeper of the calm and peace needed to get anything done since the men, including her husband lean towards a lighter mood that is not as conducive to the repetitive work that it takes to get through the days during the cold weather when they are living in tight quarters to keep warm. Although she knows her baby girl and her husband will live they are both still pretty sick and then it appears the brother cannot do the job required to make a success of the farm and does a fair amount of daily drinking - I think drinking, as they do can bring out all sorts of talk that may or may not be completely true and she really has no family protector if someone says the slightest thing negative and then, if they did how does she maintain the atmosphere needed for folks to live check to jowl for months on end.

She also has on her head that she called for the help of a woman considered an outcaste - I thought it was interesting and see it today how when someone is more educated the the rest in a group that person is set aside and attempts are made to either discredit them or bring them down.

As to all the bit with the various priests, monks and Bishops I need to read it again - the one thing I do know a monk is not held to the same standards as a priest and I have to see if I can find when they were given the 'rights' to say Mass - at this time a Monk was allowed to marry and have children - with just this one reading what occurs is my having read the Biography of St. Brendan and knowing now how the Vikings and the Irish were so entangled I think that set up could help explain - in the time of St. Brendan in Ireland, land holdings were either the church or those who had given exceptional service to the king and were awarded land or the members of the old war Lords before there were any Irish Kings, both those groups, excluding the church, were expected to not only serve and provide soldiers and arms but to build a castle which means a building with a keep that held ammunition and was the center of the fortress so that the land was distributed where the most protection was needed.

The Church was the holder of most of the land and that was part of the commona man's complaint answered in the Magna Carter that the woodlands were in question because there were enough folks living in some of the patches of unclaimed land and needed to cut wood for their homes and fires and to hunt and fish. They were punished if they cut wood or poached from either the kings land, which was any land given to what became the nobility and the woodlands owned by the church. All gave access to these commoners in the Charter EXCEPT the church that continued to deny them access to the woodlands on church land. The legal authority of Rome gets involved here but that is another story.

Within the lands owned by the church there were more than one center with a church and living as well as farming and craftsmen creating a community that included a school. There were levels of importance among these centers and in Ireland the Abbot or Bishop heading up each center was an Abbot because of his knowing or somehow appointed as a successor from St. Patrick where as a Bishop was appointed by Rome.

In Ireland there was ill feelings between Abbots and Bishops since the Abbot was closer to the traditions of the people where as the Bishops were to not only bring the people closer to Rome but often they had a mission given to them by the Pope that involved sending perspective priests to Rome to study and to as today a Bishopric sends a tithing to Rome - where as the Abbots ran their center more like a monastery that was self contained with an emphasis on education and prayer.  Ireland did not divide their land holdings into diocesans as they had in Italy and France - I need to read all this part again now that I know the story line and just focus on the relationships and then see what I can find out anything about how the office of the Church arranged itself in Scandinavia.  

[BarbStAubrey]

Ok Pat did you read anything to explain the reason for that tail on the hats or caps or whatever they are called that both the men and the women sport - at least your link gave it a name 'liripipe' - but why - certainly does not seem attractive as a fashion statement - well I just did a bunch of web sites about 14c hoods and liripipe and a couple seem to think they were a decoration however, one said it was more typical to pull the hood away from the face and then using the liriipipe it was wound around gathering it all into a turban. One site showed a nice trim with a blanket stitch as the decorative feature at the edge of the hood opening and along the edge of the cape.

[Halcyon]

PatH  Thank you for the explanation of names.

Bellamarie  Do you not believe Fru Aashild's tale about the bath water; she claims it was not she who concocted the brew and it did't happen in their parish.  Do you think she was covering for Ragnfrid?  Or had she helped Ragnfrid in some other way appear to be a virgin on her wedding night? 

Going back to page 41 when her brother Trond said " No doubt she means that I am the one who caused this (the accident)". His sister shot him a look of hatred and replied "Trond knows what I mean."  Do you think he molested his sister?

[PatH]

This is one place where Archer leaves a bit out:  "And the lady told a merry tale of a misadventure that befell in King Inga's time, when the magic wash was used by the wrong woman, and what followed thereon".

In Nunnally, the bridegroom is named--Peter Lodinsøn of Bratteland.  "But I won't say which of his three wives was the bride, since there are living descendants from all three."  The bath is prepared for the bride, but before she can get in, her future mother-in-law comes in, all dirty from her ride, and gets in the tub.

[bellamarie]

Halycon,  You have to look at the statements before yours.

"Lavrans lay upon the other bed; he rose and staggered across the floor that he might comfort his wife.  At that she started up, and shrieked.  "Touch me not, touch me not! Jesus, Jesus__'twere liker you should strike me dead__never will it end, the ill-fortune I bring upon you__"  "You!  Dear wife, 'tis not you that have brought this on us,"  said Lavrans, and laid a hand upon her shoulder.  She shuddered at that, and her light grey eyes shone in her lean, sallow face.  "Doubtless she means that 'twas my doing."  said Trond Ivarson roughly.  His sister looked at him with hate in her eyes, and answered:  "Trond knows what I mean."  

Then in the next page Ragnfrid says:  ""God," said Ragnfrid hopelessly, "hates me for my sins.  'Tis well with my children, where they are, I doubt not that; and now 'tis like Ulvhild's hour has come too--but me.  He has cast off, for my heart is a viper's nest, full of sin and sorrow__."

Ragnfrid seems to have turned against God, and the priest feels she has only thought of herself:  "God help you, Ragnfrid Ivarsdatter,"  said Sira Eirik, and shook his head.  "In all your praying and fasting, you have thought only to force your will upon God.  Can you wonder that it has helped but little?"  Ragnfrid looked defiantly at the priest, and spoke:  "I have sent for the Lady Aashild even now."  The priest looked as though he would answer sharply, but checked himself again.

Seems Ragnfrid turns against God, and toward witchcraft when God does not provide her with the answers of her prayers.  

No I don't think her brother molested her, I think he knows her secret.  Yes, Lady Aashild says she did not brew the water and it did not happen here in the Dale, if she had she would have been a rich woman.  Then she says, "But,'tis said, sure enough, that the art was known in the olden days."


PatH.,  Now isn't that interesting, why would Asher leave that part out, and Nunnally have it in?  Is this part of a tale or truth?  I just feel with all the bits and pieces being dropped, and like the pilgrims at Canterbury telling their tales, we can't know which is truth and which is tales, but I feel something is not right about the wedding.  I suspect the secret is known by Lady Aashild, Tronds, and obviously others, since this conversation incited a brawl amongst the priest and monk.

Chaucer includes....."and the corrupt Pardoner."  The accusation of the priest knowing is what causes the fight to break out, "Think you I know not of the wedding in this very parish where you made a bath for the bride that was no maid__"[/color]

Barb, I suspect Ragnfrid would be upset to see a brawl at her Christmas feast, but I also suspect these type of gatherings happened and the drinking would get out of control,  remember, it is Lavrans who breaks up the fight.  So, I ask myself, did he break up the fight because someone could be badly hurt, or to come to the protection of Ragnfrid, to keep her secret from being revealed?  I can't come to a decision where Lavrans fits into all of this, because he says to her it was not her fault.  But she says her children (three boys) are where they should be and she expects God to take   Ulvhild, as well because of her sins.

"O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive!" - Walter Scott

[PatH]

As we leave this section, are there any loose ends you want to wind up, anything that struck you that we haven't covered?

[Halcyon]

No loose ends for me. We can always return if something comes up.

[BarbStAubrey]

I guess I am not convinced there is this big dark secret from what we are reading - I see Ragnfid needing protection when she openly declares her support for, turns to and hires Lady Aashild - she risks being a witch by association and she loves her husband so she would not want him to touch her for fear of her witchery passing to him as if it was a disease. She is already blaming herself for all their misfortunes and during this time in European history all they knew were curses as the cause of ill-fortune.

I was caught up in how it appeared Lavrans was going to loose the farm and I could see if they are barely holding on and Tronds came into the picture just at the time of the accident and it appears he is staying, and he does not seem to be a good noble farmer as Lavrans that somehow I wonder if Ragnfid suspects Tronds is after the farm because Lavrans won't be able to keep it as profitable as it needs to be in order not to loose it.

As to the brawl between the monks and priest that I still see as typical and wrapped up with the egos of those who are in competition over whose parish is given more acclaim - it was the same nonsense that a read going on in Ireland, yes earlier, during the lifetime of St. Brendan. When an area is divided into Diocesans there is one Bishop appointed for the Diocesan but I am betting this is like Ireland and therefore, there are several Bishops, each associated with a compound or center or parish - I had not read the word parish used yet, but it could be. And there had been an ongoing disrespect that priests held for monks with monks being cruder, usually not educated more than the locals and not given the sacrament of Holy Orders so they do not say Mass although, they can distribute Communion.

The church leader of the center or parish functions as more important than any civilian leader including advising but not leading the nobility and so these families that live within the area are governed by the church leader, the Bishop and in Ireland it could also be an Abbot. Here we seem to have family ownership of land holdings and so the thing to learn about is how much leadership do these Bishops hold, is the church the governing system or the nobility or both and how do individual landowners fit into the governing system.

Frankly, it is so early in the story my thought is the issue of witchcraft over church leadership is at the center here - and in this story we are seeing the clergy function as physicians so then following the physical health issue where the priests would have whatever book learning was available where as, the monks would be closer to the people and know the local talisman of healing and may even have knowledge of some of the local herbs - it was the knowledge of local herbs in France that had many a monastery, after they were no longer the governing body for the lay people, make the liqueurs and fortified wines we still drink today as a means of income since with the loss of their governing came a loss of tax collecting which was the duty of the clergy.    

[BarbStAubrey]

I found fascinating how to hear confession you went into a private room as Lavran does while Kristin is cared for - now I am curious to learn when the confessionals became part of church architecture because come to think on it the few great historical Cathedrals I had the good fortune to visit did not have confessionals or if they did they were separate, made of wood, like a small divided room plunked in like we would wheel in a mobile home.

OK here we go, "Beginnings of practicing the sacrament of penance in the form of individual confession as we know it now, i.e. bringing confession of sins and reconciliation together, can be traced back to 11th century. In 1215 the Fourth Council of the Lateran made it canon law that every Catholic Christian goes to confession in his parish at least once a year. The specification to one's own parish was later dropped. "

The Fourth Council of Lateran does not suggest that the Tariff be dropped - since the sixth and seventh century, which is one of the things Luther was rebelling over, in order for anyone to receive a blessing or be absolved of sin during confession you paid a tariff - I wonder if that was the beginning of our thinking that the poor were less worthy - they could not afford the blessings of the priests nor the forgiveness of their sins. Hmmm another reason to fear becoming poor.

[Halcyon]

Halycon,  You have to look at the statements before yours.


I do see what you're saying. Ragnfrid seemed so full of hate I couldn't help think Trond had done something totally ungorgivable to her.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ok found another tid bit - In the Saga of Hákon the Good which was only written down in the 11th century and included in Prose Edda (I knew I kept this book for a reason  ) a description of the custom of Yule is given which includes a series of toasts. The toasts begin with a toast to Odin (the main god, over healing, death, knowledge, sorcery, poetry, the runic alphabet, and victory and power for the king) followed by toasts to Njörðr (the sea god) and his son Freyr's (god of virility and prosperity, with sunshine and fair weather), intended for good harvests and peace. Following this, a beaker is drank for the king, and then a toast is given for departed kin.

Since the Yule was 10 days long I wonder if these toasts were all at once - at the beginning of each days gathering - how quickly they were consumed - what we know today that is a lot of drinking.

[BarbStAubrey]

Wheee here we go - here in this web site is the explanation for how giants, elves and dwarfs etc. came into being

http://www.viking-mythology.com/theCreation.php

While Odin and his brothers were in the progress of creating a new world from the body parts of Ymir, worms kept crawling out of the remains. The worms became dwarfs. The brothers told four of the dwarfs to hold up the sky. They did not want to risk the sky falling down. The names of the four dwarfs is North "Nordi" West "Vestri", South "Sundri", and East "Austri", and was sent out in each direction of the world.

The other dwarfs made their homes in rocks and caves under the ground, which is called Nidavellir. The dwarfs became experts in craftsmanship, and have created some of the most powerful weapons, like Mjölnir, Thor's hammer.

[bellamarie]

PatH., I have no loose ends, I only have questions, that only the next chapters may be able to answer, and enlighten me to what is the secret and sins of Ragnfrid.  I have NO doubt there is something, that has her filled with hatred, sorrow, sinfulness and feeling God has turned against her, for whatever she feels she has done so unforgivable.   Only time will tell.

[BarbStAubrey]

So caught up in finding all these by the way tid bits that make the story come alive I did not pay attention to the conversation here - yes Pat, I am ready and hope like Bellamarie we get more answers because as Halycan points out there are other ways to look at what transpires between these characters.

[PatH]

Time well spent, Barb; those tid bits do indeed make the story even more alive.

I didn't know about the Tariff.  Hmmm--charging for God's mercy.

[BarbStAubrey]

yep - they would also sell indulgences, that is when you said a group of prayers that was supposed to reduce your time in purgatory - in any organization, including the Roman Catholic Church, to learn where the power lies and what the real issues are all about follow the money

[ginny]

Wow, what a great discussion and what great points everybody has made!!

Oh super,  I see the "datter" explained because I had a theory from the first (too many Ericssons not to be a datter) but I thought I better read and see who Lavrans was first. I'm caught up just in time to begin reading  the new section. hahaha But it's a fast read, and an enjoyable one. Nice way to spend an hour.

However, I have to say the book surprises me. Is it the translation perhaps? (I have the Nunnally).

I didn't have the feeling of being in the Middle Ages at all until Ulvhild was hurt and the shaman/witch  or medicine woman or whatever she is was called in. Did her medicines work, the heading asks?   They don't appear to be. The dew to bathe the child in, etc. But if one believes they will, perhaps eventually they might.

(What does the child appear to be suffering from, anyway? A broken back?)

Beautiful descriptions of nature. I think the author was very clever to see things thru initially a child's eyes (7 I think at the first?) because she's really explaining things to us, and so we're caught up learning about the world like Kristin does.

Here are some of the things that made me think:

How does the medieval life seem to you?  Can you imagine yourself there?

In all honesty it doesn't seem real.  I am not sure what I expected, maybe a Canterbury Tales type bunch of characters.  I did not read the Introduction, did  Undset research it a lot and this is how she really found it? Are  there any written letters or records at all from people of  this period? Perhaps in the church? It starts out in 1306.  The Canterbury Tales were not much later, as you've all pointed out,  in the same century.  Maybe they won't be so different in the end, it will be interesting to see.


The things that stood out at me were the shunned medical woman apparently feels she's the equal of anybody, as she says to Kristin: (page 53 in my book): "Yes, of course you're a good match," Said Fru Aashild. "And yet you couldn't expect to become part of my lineage..." and then on  about the ancestor who was an outlaw and a foreigner...and never mind that was incorrect, I thought that was odd for a woman whom others apparently consider a witch or outcast...

Ragnfrid apparently is hiding a secret. I see Bellamarie and Halcyon right on that!  On page 51, "Fru Aashild never mentioned that they had known each other in the past, and that frightened Ragnfrid quite badly...." in fact she's in an "agony of fear."

Wonder why. Wonder what she's hiding. I wonder if she considers the deaths of her children her fault for something hidden, and this Fru Aashild knows what it is,  sometimes people think like that.

I thought this was interesting (page 49) "That's why I think that sensible people have to be satisfied with the good days--for the grandest of days are costly indeed."

What an interesting statement and philosophy. I'm reading Being Mortal which is fabulous and for a minute I thought she was echoing him, but she's not. It's not a gather ye rosebuds, it's something else. Be content with enough?

I like the book, it's strange. It's not what I expected.  It's kind of like a fairytale, in a way, magic. The people seem so odd, to me, there seems to be a barrier between the reader and the characters, I can't figure it out.  But I'm glad to finally read it (and of course the edition is glorious and I love the footnotes) and glad you're offering it.   On to the next section and to really catch up.