Author Topic: Palace Thief (The) by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online  (Read 70906 times)

Jonathan

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #320 on: July 30, 2015, 02:30:35 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

July Book Club Online: July 7-31

The Palace Thief
by Ethan Canin






"Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "



Topic #3: The Thieves of Integrity/ Plot/ Final Thoughts/ The Palace Thief


Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "

  • 1. Do you agree with the author on what the theme of the book is? Why or why not?

  • 2. What do you see the climax of the book to be?

    ------------- Was it the 2nd contest and the Nahhunte?

    --------------Was it the moment Mr. Hundert stood up to the whole school and got Charles Ellerby elected?

    ---------------Was it the moment Mr. Hundert finally stood UP to the conflicts of the entire book (Sedgewick) and tried to say in front of miners, that is not true?

    ---------------Is it something else?

  • 3. "By some fallen column, by some chaste ruin, the thieves of integrity wait...."

    ( Hilary Mantel, in Wolf Hall)......

    . "Virtue had no place in the palaces he had known.." (page 196).

  • What does the title of the book mean?




  • Interesting Links:

    Annotations for The Palace Thief from  Chulalongkorn University  


    Discussion Leader: Ginny





    The great summing-ups in the last few days have really brought things into focus for me and displayed how diabollicaly clever the author was in writing this story. On the other hand I still don't know what to believe. I feel certain that Mr Hundert was wrong about the father/son relationship. Father wished the son would do well. Son wished to please him. Their encounters were discussions on the son's progress. No one is walking the moral high ground in this story. They are all working at their careers. It's a match-up between cheating and resourcefulness. With Mr Hundert forced to come down out of his ivory tower, to meet the modern Caesars.

    It didn't take Mr Hundert long to see that a potential Mr Caesar had walked into his classroom  when the thirteen-year-old Sedgewick entered with a take-over look, 'veni, vidi, vici' written all over his face, and then went on to succeed despite his teachers help and collaboration. No, Mr Hundert made no difference. That really hurt him. And an untrue confession was the result.

    bellamarie

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #321 on: July 30, 2015, 04:42:48 PM »
    Barb from what we read Mr. H. sincerely thought that Sedgewick's behavior was because of his fear of disapproval from his father and that being a monumental mountain to climb Mr. H. extended a hand at the expense of another student -

    And this was his first mistake......to conclude this, and then begin to alter grades and cheat, and become obsessed with this young 13 yr. old. 

    It was NOT Mr. H.'s place to assume anything, and it certainly was NOT his place to begin the ball rolling by cheating, which Sedgewick did not expect or ask for him to do.

    'l'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés ou désirs'

    Clearly we can argue our points forever, since we see the actions and intents of each of these characters differently.  Neither of us are right or wrong in how we see their actions.  That's a pretty hard accusation against a 13 yr. old who has entered a class mid way, and is being judged and humiliated by a teacher  on his first day.

    I disagree, it is not important with who cheated first.  Had Mr. H., never changed the grades the entire incidents would not have occurred. 

    I clearly did not see any remorse in Mr. H., either and he continued to engage, and cheat, as well.  He could have ended this at any time and chose not to.

    I agree wholeheartedly with you Jonathan. 

    This story sounded like an unrepentant mea culpa.  A man, coming to terms with his failure in life. 
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    ginny

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #322 on: July 30, 2015, 04:55:20 PM »
    :).  The Discussion That Will Not Die. However it's interesting, because  you keep bringing up new and interesting points.

     Do any of you see any regret, any remorse,  any apologia at all from Mr. Hundert?  I think that's a fair question. I think we are being awfully hard on the one man that shows remorse. We don't have Charles Ellerby's  opinion. We only have one man.

    And it's true he's the narrator, and it's true he may not be reliable, but it's also true prima facie he is showing remorse. Using the word "mistake" alone shows he feels he was wrong. 

    If he were irredeemable, he would not be worrying himself about it.

    BarbStAubrey

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #323 on: July 30, 2015, 05:11:39 PM »
    All I can say is I am thankful that there have been an awful lot of teachers who altered grades and in essence cheated with many many students and in spite of pre-college-course special ed classes that were set up, without cheating, padding grades, expecting less, our collages would be milky white to this day with a few Asians thrown in.

    Most often the cause is parent circumstance and attitude that may be directly opposite the circumstances, attitude and expectation of Hyram Bell but it still comes down to attitude and expectations for a child by a parent that a teacher would visit the parents in their home and would too often not experience any more satisfactory a visit then Mr. H. has with Hyram Bell - the teacher often tries to affect the student by giving a kid a helping hand which is cheating - and so it appears our idea of what is cheating and what is offering a leg up is in question.
     
    “A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

    Halcyon

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #324 on: July 30, 2015, 06:22:06 PM »
    I haven't been keeping up with the posts but thought everyone would be interested in this part of the e-book introduction to Up The Down Staircase. Bel Kaufman  wrote the introduction in 2012 for the release of the e-book. She has since died. I've been busy caring for my husband who had rotator (sp) cuff surgery and getting ready for our only child's wedding in mid August!  It's hard fitting a man in a new suit when he can't move his arm. Haha.

    As far back as 1961, educators warned about the “social dynamite” building up in our schools. Now, it is exploding all over the place. At their historic meeting on education in 1989 at the University of Virginia, state governors wondered how to solve all of society’s ills in the classrooms. So do teachers today. An ad for Apple Computer summed it up: “We expect our teachers to handle teenage pregnancy, substance abuse, and the shortcomings of the family. Then we expect them to educate our children.” In the last few years, there has been a spate of books, articles, news stories, radio programs, and television documentaries with frantic titles: “A Nation at Risk!” …. “High Schools on the Brink!” …. “Save Our Schools! …” National reports have lamented the quality of public education, trying to “stem the tide of mediocrity.” And what do these reports tell us? Everything that can be found in a book written in 1963.   

    bellamarie

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #325 on: July 30, 2015, 07:28:29 PM »
    GinnyIf he were irredeemable, he would not be worrying himself about it.

    I'm not so sure I see him worrying himself about it, if anything his narration is all about him, his blaming Sedgewick for pulling him into his moral dilemma.  I personally don't like to think anyone is irredeemable, especially when they are only entering their teens, or a teacher in their twenty's, but Sedgewick went on to be a success, and Mr., H., is the one telling his woeful story.  This could be considered his very own personal pity party.  Everyone seemed to do wrong, and he is the victim who just had to make these wrong choices because of them.  Sedgewick, pulled him in, Mr. Woolbridge caused him to cheat since he refused to expose Sedgewick, Ellerby backstabbed him causing him to lie about the gun, the Senator was not a fit parent, etc., etc.  Again while he was assuming and acting on his assumptions, he managed to involve other innocent students as well, who years later voiced their feelings about it.

    Myself, and others are as hard on Mr. H., as you, and others are on Sedgewick.  Those who have seen the movie may have the advantage of liking Mr. H., a bit more because it was written differently from the book. 

    Ginny,
    Quote
    The Discussion That Will Not Die.

        :)  :)  :)  :)
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    ginny

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #326 on: July 30, 2015, 08:26:25 PM »
    OH I lost SUCH a giant post. Halcyon, bless your heart, I hope you are not stark staring mad at the end of August! I hope the wedding is the most beautiful, wonderful, memorable time in your lives. I am sure it will be!

    I had said in the post that I wanted to congratulate you all on your handling of this discussion, the cordially expressed polarized opinions, which allowed us all to enjoy the discussion and get something out of it, while at the same time learning a bit about our fellow readers here.

    I wish we had taken the time to define "cheating," as we each see it, as Barbara is  attempting  to do in her post. Degrees of "cheating." There are  all kinds of "cheating" in the world. I agree,  Jonathan,  the author has used a lot of skill (I know a lot of you don't want to believe the author has deliberately manipulated the reader, perhaps if we had spent a little more time with the plot elements, we might have come to a different conclusion), but I truly did not realize that some of the issues here were so explosive, so it's really been a super discussion for me. It takes a long time to develop this kind of give and take that doesn't disintegrate, when arguing passionately about a book. It's rare and what every book discussion should be, and isn't.

    As we said when we started, one of the criteria of Literary Criticism, which is what we're doing in a modest way here, is that one has to be able to back up one's conclusions with statements from the book. Not how we feel about  those statements, but what they actually are.

     Is there anybody here who honestly thinks that what you may have done in the past that you feel sorry about will NOT be the subject of your rumination in your old age? If you do, you're fooling yourself.  And none of us are perfect. He's normal.

    Here Mr. Hundert is telling us his inmost thoughts. He's not talking to anybody but us and he's telling the reader what happened thru his eyes. I think he can be allowed to do that. We've all heard of witnesses to an accident that don't agree even on the appearance of the persons involved. Everybody might have seen these events differently. It's his life as he saw it and he's telling us his viewpoint.

    Why should he? He's not told anybody else? WE can't absolve him,  no matter how sorry he is.  Is he whining? Pity Party?? I think he deserves a good whine, myself, he's apparently kept this to himself a long time. Something like this would eat at a man.

    So maybe he'll find somehow he can forgive himself for the things he did wrong (he after all is not a mass murderer), or find somebody who can cast another ameliorating light on the subject.

    I think sometimes we read a book and read a lot into a character based on our own experiences, that others don't see.  This character may touch a hot wire with us for a number of reasons, but to others in the group, it may not be there.  We can't blame Mr. Hundert for seeing Sedgewick the way he did if we can't see Mr. Hundert in any kind of charitable light.  Because if we can't, then we're "cheating" him of a fair judgment, and we're actually doing to him what we are accusing him of doing to others.


    Bellamarie: "but Sedgewick went on to be a success, "

    Not in my eyes. That's not my idea of success in any way.

    At least we know Mr. Hundert regrets, refers to what he did as "mistakes," (that's regret) what he did. And thanks to the author, we don't know how  Sedgewick feels about cheating again on the test, about cheating again in front of the miners,  and about whatever the tabloids said, a pretty steady course of life, I'd say. Not caused by anything but his own character. And upbringing.

    Bellamarie: I'm not so sure I see him worrying himself about it, if anything his narration is all about him,

    Well of course it is. What else is a mea culpa?

    Super discussion, Guys! Thank you all so much!


    BarbStAubrey

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #327 on: July 30, 2015, 09:29:07 PM »
    After so much intensity pouring out our inner most views on life in this discussion I thought a brake was in order or at least I needed a break and today a friend posted this of her son and his friend up on the highway - I smiled and enjoyed every last minute - as the heading of the video says - no cure for summertime blues - except...

    https://www.facebook.com/mustang877/videos/10152984212810872/?fref=nf
     
    “A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

    bellamarie

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #328 on: July 31, 2015, 02:28:42 AM »
    GinnyWe can't blame Mr. Hundert for seeing Sedgewick the way he did if we can't see Mr. Hundert in any kind of charitable light.  Because if we can't, then we're "cheating" him of a fair judgment, and we're actually doing to him what we are accusing him of doing to others.

    We could say the same for those who are cheating Sedgewick of a fair judgement.

    One's success is not always viewed as a success by another.  Mr. H., seemed to think Sedgewick became successful in spite of what he did to him many years ago.  To be chairman of a multimillion dollar company, and become a Senator is not all too shabby. 

    It came as a surprise, then, when I learned in the Richmond Gazette, thirty-seven years later, of Sedgewick Bell's ascension to the chairmanship of EastAmerica Steel, at that time the second-largest corporation in America. 

    Of course, he also offered a good sum of money to me personally.  Although I had until then led a life in which finances were never more than a distant concern, I was keenly aware that my time in the school's housing and dining halls was coming to an end.  On the one hand, it was not my burning aspiration to secure an endowment for the reign of Charles Ellerby; on the other hand, I needed the money, and I felt a deep loyalty to the school regarding the Annual Fund.  That evening I began to prepare my test.


    For a man who thought so little of Sedgewick, and how corrupt he felt he was, he had no problem deciding to take his money for his own personal needs. 

    An EastAmerica jet would fly me from there to Charlotte, from whence I was to be picked up by helicopter.  Helicopter!  Less than a month later I stood before the craft, which was painted head to tail in EastAmerica's greeen and gold insignia, polished to a shine, with a six-man passenger bay and red-white and blue sponsors over the wheels.  One does not remain at St. Benedict's for five decades without gaining a certain familiarity with privilege, yet as it lifted me off the pad in Charotte, hovered for a moment, then lowered its nose and turned eastward over the gentle hills and then the chopping slate of the sea channel, I felt a headiness that I had never known before; it was what Augustus Caesar must have felt millennia ago, carried head-high on a litter past the Tiber.  I clutched my notes to my chest.  Indeed I wondered what my life might have been like if I had felt this just once in my youth.

    Now this speaks volumes....."what my life might have been like if I had felt this just once in my youth."

    Mr. H., saw that youthful drive Sedgewick had, from the minute he walked into his classroom, to becoming successful.  Something he was not able to do, instead he secluded himself in St. Benedict's and did not take any risks in life to experience this headiness.  Could that be what drove Mr. H, to Sedgewick?

    How many times do we see something in another person, and stop to think if only I could do that, be that, take that risk. 

    "The first and worst of all frauds is to cheat oneself."
    Gamaliel Bailey

    I still have to wonder why in the first paragraph of this story Mr. H., says, "This is a story without surprises."

    I can't begin to count how many times throughout this story he says he was "surprised."



     
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    bellamarie

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #329 on: July 31, 2015, 02:33:42 AM »
    Barb, Thanks for the video, so cute!!!   :)
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    Frybabe

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #330 on: July 31, 2015, 06:41:56 AM »
    Barb, in her post 324, reminded me of an inner-city teacher in Baltimore who I once knew telling me that the inner-city schools were nothing more than holding pens. She had been frustrated at the lack of support and downright hostility from the parents of her students. The didn't care, didn't understand, and/or didn't want their children being smarter than them.

    Bellamarie's comment, "Mr. H., saw that youthful drive Sedgewick had, from the minute he walked into his classroom, to becoming successful. Something he was not able to do, instead he secluded himself in St. Benedict's and did not take any risks in life to experience this headiness," brings up some issues for me. This goes back to fear of failure and fear of the unknown, don't you think? Mr. H. sequestered himself in the only area he felt comfortable with and never stepped out of that comfort zone.

    Until my late 30's/early 40's I believe I owned (and to some extent, still do) these fears. It took me a long time, and with George's help to push past them. George, who saw me as a dependent personality, often insisted that I make my own decisions and attend to my own wants and needs rather always differing them to others. He would sometimes say he couldn't tell whether I was doing something/agreeing to something because I wanted it or just reflecting what I thought he wanted. He did the work my parents were, for whatever reasons (fears of their own?), didn't. He helped me become an independent person. I occasionally tell him he created this monster, now he has to live with it. While we no longer live together, we remain great friends, and talk almost daily and see each other often. George, BTW, is also a retired teacher. He thinks of me as one of his greatest successes (so he said once) even though I never had him as a teacher.

    ginny

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #331 on: July 31, 2015, 09:18:48 AM »
    Frybabe, good for George but good for you the most. YOU are the one who finally did it.

    This goes back to fear of failure and fear of the unknown, don't you think? Mr. H. sequestered himself in the only area he felt comfortable with and never stepped out of that comfort zone.

      Yes I agree. And when he did step out of that comfort zone, notice, he did respond to treachery (the miners and Sedgewick's lies). That's another reason why the "proud" is on his face. He's finally proud of himself.

    Bellamarie: We could say the same for those who are cheating Sedgewick of a fair judgement.

    Unfortunately we can't.  The reason is the Great Judge, the author who created these characters will not allow us to make a fair judgment by the way he's written the book. As I keep saying. (It's really too bad we didn't have the time or the inclination  to spend on how he wrote the plot). 

    Sedgewick is a cardboard caricature  by design. And he has expressed no remorse whatsoever.  We can see that in his continuing cheating actions.

     Mr. Hundert has expressed remorse and regret.

    We're not privy to Sedgewick's inner thoughts. Therefore we can't judge him any way than he's presented, and that's by author design.


     It appears that we should also have taken the time to define success.

    To be chairman of a multimillion dollar company, and become a Senator is not all too shabby. 

    We must be reading different books. Sedgewick was not a senator. He was running for the office. And cheating his way through. If every idiot in the US who ran for office had been elected TO that office,  we'd be in worse shape than we are currently.

    Let's take off the flash words of their names for a minute and look at the logic which seems skewed.

    1. Person A admits in his soul searching mea culpa to us that he cheated on a test score for the purpose of giving a child a break.

    The drum roll of "cheating, cheating, cheating" begins. We are to despise Person A. He is a failure. He repents, but who cares? He's a disgrace to the teaching profession. No chance in Hell of any kind of charity from us.

    2. Person B cheats, cheats, cheats, into adulthood, two times as a grown man running for office. We don't know what he thinks, but it must work for him  in his life because he keeps it up.  Person B is the CEO of a multimillion dollar company. That makes HIM a "success?"  while the other poor shmuck  on his very small teaching pension (as is common of all teachers) is not, despite his acknowledgement that he was wrong.

    Apparently we don't know personally many CEO's of multimillion dollar companies. They are men or women just like any other. If THEY cheat cheat cheat, if we condemn "cheating, " then they also are not successful as human beings. And  IF their story is told in such a way that we don't know remorse they may be feeling (that's the author, again)  then we have no choice BUT  to condemn them, whether or not they make money or whatever status they seem to be.

    In for a penny, in for a pound. If Person A is a disgrace, because he "cheated,"  then so is Person B. There is NO arguing that Person  B cheated.

    I personally think Person A is intended to represent Everyman and his regret, because unlike Frank Sinatra's My Way ("Regrets? I've had a few, but then again too few to mention..") Person A does care about his moral integrity.

    The same cannot be said for Person B because he is a character in a book deliberately presented in a certain way by the author.



    bellamarie

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #332 on: July 31, 2015, 11:01:31 AM »
    Frybabe,  Yes, I agree, I do think when Mr. H., finally stepped out of his comfort zone, and felt the headiness for the first time in his life, he realized how much he had cheated himself out of, and fear certainly could have been a factor.  It makes me wonder if he resented Sedgewick, being so young and fearless, yet was drawn to him for the excitement.  Didn't he say Sedgwick pulled him in.....maybe Mr. H., taking those little steps of breaking the rules for Sedgewick, was his attempt to not following the rules and experiencing what it is like to be like Sedgewick.

    I am so glad you have George, he sounds like a very caring, loving and wise person.  This is a wonderful statement..... "I occasionally tell him he created this monster, now he has to live with it."

    Ginny, We must be reading different books. Sedgewick was not a senator. He was running for the office. And cheating his way through. If every idiot in the US who ran for office had been elected TO that office,  we'd be in worse shape than we are currently.

    In my book on page 203:

    He won that election not in small part because he managed to convince those miners that he was one of them.  They were ignorant people, and I cannot blame them for taking to the shrewdly populist rhetoric of the man.  I saved this picture that appeared the following morning in the Gazette: Senator Bell radiating all the populist magnetism of his father, holding high the arm of an old man who has on his face the remnants of a proud foolish smile.

    He's finally proud of himself.  Is he really proud of himself, or is he finally allowing himself to recognize Sedgewick is successful in spite of him thinking the father was a bad parent.  He mentions Sedgewick "radiating all the populist magnetism of his father."   Does he realize how much the father really did for his son, how much the father meant to Sedgewick? 

    It rankled my feathers that Mr. H., would call the miners, "ignorant people"   Is this Mr. H., just not accepting people liked Sedgewick?  Voters who are being proactive, as these miners were, can see beyond the rhetoric, the last word I would describe them as is "ignorant."

    Unfortunately we can't.  The reason is the Great Judge, the author who created these characters will not allow us to make a fair judgment by the way he's written the book.

    Hmmm....an author can write a book with his/her own intentions, but the reader is at liberty to read the words and decide for themselves what they will perceive it to be.  Much like scripture, two people can read the same verse and come away with an entirely different interpretation.  We factor in our own personal experiences, beliefs, morals etc., and can come away seeing something the author himself/herself did not realize could be there. 

    A few times we have had authors join our discussion and tell us they had not intended for the reader to see it as we expressed we did, but they could see how we came to our conclusion.  As an author myself, I would never want my reader to see me as the "Great Judge"I would hope my readers would expand beyond my words and thoughts and inspire me and others to see it from many different points of view, as I feel we all have done with this story.  As I mentioned before, it's like a prism.

    We see it differently and are not going to change each other's minds regardless of our arguments and points.  I agree they both were cheaters and intent does not excuse the cheating.  You see these two characters one way, and I see them another.  I do not see Sedgewick as a "cardboard character" the author and the narrator, Mr. H., has made him a very important character in his storytelling. Without him, there would be no story.  No one gets through life living it to perfection.  We all along the way will bend a rule, tell a lie, manipulate a situation for our gain, etc.  It does not make everyone bad people, it makes them human.  I do not see either of these characters as irredeemable.

    We are indeed reading the same book, and I think you make fine points, but we will have to agree to disagree.


    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    BarbStAubrey

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #333 on: July 31, 2015, 10:12:23 PM »


    I'd say in 50 years we have accomplished this marvel...!
    “A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

    Jonathan

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #334 on: July 31, 2015, 11:38:20 PM »
    'I know a lot of you don't want to believe the author has deliberately manipulated the reader.'

    I refuse to believe it, Ginny. My impression is that the author has very successfully kept himself out of it, allowing Mr Hundert to speak for himself. It's the teacher who has on occasion pulled the wool over our eyes. Perhaps even over his own.

    This is the sorriest tale I have ever read. Mr Hundert with his 'character is fate' story is going to haunt me for a long time. The picture of the old man with the proud foolish smile.  After that thoughts of honor and vengeance. Crossing the Rubicon without a die. He was a good teacher for so many years. Who would have guessed the frustrations.

     All your thoughtful posts have certainly enriched this reading experience in a most amazing way. Many thanks. What fun to participate.

    BarbStAubrey

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #335 on: August 01, 2015, 04:59:55 AM »
    Poke'n my nose in one more time - yep, I am feeling Wild Day excitement in the air

    For most of us our day is filled with meals, laundry, appointments, shopping, work, paying bills, gassing up the car, mowing, weekend cleanup, church, friends, volunteering, caring for partner/family, the cat or dog - some of these activities are written in our day planner but most are the ordinary responsibilities we mentally track as, the week's "to do".

    Now the big question - Does anyone ever really schedule in their appointment calendar a set time to read, or write and post a chapter analysis, or does anyone schedule on a chalk board time for a Senior Learn discussion, or set an appointment for research time to find more background for the current story?

    Or have you ever chucked it all and read for an entire afternoon or even a day? Have you ever sat down immediately to read a new book delivered or picked up from the library? Have you, as I have, binged for a day or more, reading more than one book, eating leftovers or heating up a bowl of soup.

    “Voila!” - Our "Wild Days!"

    Our "Wild Days" are all the unscheduled times we read and post on SeniorLearn and the times we binge read. All the time we do not schedule in our appointment book or even our mental 'to do' track. It's our Wheee time or me time??!!?? Our "Wild Days!"


    We're excited about reading your stories that will capture and celebrate our golden "Wild Days". Starting on August 10 bring your ukulele, banjo, guitar, harmonica or just hum through an old tooth comb and tissue and sing outloud around our fire of memories in the discussion Our Wild Days; Creating the Good Life on SeniorLearn.
    “A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

    ginny

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    Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
    « Reply #336 on: August 01, 2015, 01:24:08 PM »
    Well it  looks like it's time to fold the tent. :)  It's been a fine and worthwhile  discussion of this little 50 page novella, and I think it could probably go on a while. But today we will conclude it (again) hahaha and thank you all for your insights.

    (So true, Barbara,  on the cartoon. I'm going to save that one)

    Absolutely right, Bellamarie, now we're equal in Oops Moments.... I had missed that little bit about the election, good work. Of course that makes no difference in Sedgewick's predilections, or my opinion of him. 

    Hmmm....an author can write a book with his/her own intentions, but the reader is at liberty to
    read the words and decide for themselves what they will perceive it to be.  Much like scripture, two people can read the same verse and come away with an entirely different interpretation.  We factor in our own personal experiences, beliefs, morals etc., and can come away seeing something the author himself/herself did not orealize could be there.

    Sure, the readers have a lot of liberty. They can make up anything they want. But if I'm reading  a book and the author says there are three people walking down the road but another reader, however persuasive,  sees three people and two pink elephants....there's nothing one can say.  That doesn't MEAN the point has now become that  three people and two pink  elephants are walking down the road, it means that there are three people in the book walking down the road and some people have read something into it. Which is fine and makes for a great discussion.



    I do not see Sedgewick as a "cardboard character" the author and the narrator, Mr. H., has made him a very important character in his storytelling. Without him, there would be no story.

    To me Sedgewick represents the CONFLICT part of the plot.  He's not a fully developed character.


    I refuse to believe it, Ginny. My impression is that the author has very successfully kept himself out of it, allowing Mr Hundert to speak for himself.

    I don't think it's possible for an author to keep himself out of a creation he's done. However I like the idea of Mr. Hundert ending the discussion himself. I'll let him start it, too:


    Is there no battle other than the personal one?
    (Said by Mr. Hundert at the end of the book before the miner's meeting).

    We've had some great summations here. I'd like to have a go, too.  For my part, I spent a lot of time thinking about the various themes running under the surface of the book, some of which we haven't talked about . There are a lot of classical allusions in this book,  which pertain to Julius Caesar, and life being a battle, at last count I had 6 allusions to Caesar's life  alone, some very subtle,  (not counting the contest name but once) and  what looks like a million to "battle." Including the contest questions.  In 50 pages.

    I had been struggling a bit trying to figure out why there are so many allusions to  Caesar and what they meant. I have decided for my own part that a man steeped in literature in a crisis will come up with a literary quote. A man steeped in classics always sees things thru that prism. That's true in life and seems truly drawn here,  to me.  Mr. Hundert is using that metaphor to express how besieged he felt. Just like Caesar's quae cum ita sint..(since these things are so...here's what happened, here's what I did about it).....it makes perfect sense now. In a sense it's a parallel Commentary to Caesar's Commentarii,  not of an actual series of  battles but a series of metaphorical ones.


    Jonathan wrote:  Crossing the Rubicon without a die.


    The Crossing the Rubicon part of Caesar's life (which famous saying, by the way, is now thought (1) not to be correct (2) missing half the parts OR (3) said in Greek (4) never said at all), seemed strange to me in this place in the plot.

    I needed to understand how the alea iacta est (the die is cast)  related to Mr. Hundert, and reread the book last night:


    Quote
    The die is cast, I said, and I threw it twenty yards out into the water. The last impediment to my headmastership had been hurdled and by the time i came ashore, walked back whistling to my front door, and changed for bed, I was ecstatic.


    Yet that night I slept poorly, and in the morning when I rose and went to our faculty meeting, I felt that the mantle of my fortitude had slipped  somehow from my shoulders. How hushed is demise!


     Mr. Hundert up until that point of his own Crossing the Rubicon thought he was in control.  But Mr. Hundert realized in this scene he was no Caesar and there's nothing left he can do about it; he's been outmaneuvered.   And this one realization, that flash of reality was an overwhelming defeat for him on top of the others. But this is not the climax of the plot. If it were, the book  would have had some resolution and ended. It didn't.

    And it makes a big difference in how I personally believe  Mr. Hundert is meant to be seen.  And the point of the story.

    The Rubicon moment has made changes, tho. Mr Hundert has changed, following his Rubicon moment,  in his feelings for Sedgewick Bell: before the adult contest:

    "but I must say that the straightforward determination of Sedgewick Bell had begun to win my heart.....I seemed to be in the throes of an affection for him."...Hope springs eternal.  And is dashed again in this complex plot.

    I believe the climax of the book (the highest or most intense point in the development or resolution of something/  the point of highest dramatic tension or a major turning point in the action (as of a play) as I said, was his finally standing up at the Miners gathering. 

    Here's why:

    He finally stood up to wrong  the right way.

    If all the conflict and events in the book led up to his finally stepping UP to the plate, in front of a crowd, in front of the press, we should rejoice with him that he finally has Caesar's  l'audace, which he has lacked all this time.  He rightfully took his own place in history. To me, in so doing, he crossed a threshold and set himself at peace.


    Feel sorry for him or despise him  if you like, he's at peace. He's living in the dignity now that the author thought (see heading),  was the point of the book, and said  was the theme. He has exorcized his demons like a tongue touching a sore tooth repeatedly.. Hence the mea culpa to us, the reader.  And he finally acted.  And he may now reach out for the next thing he wants.

    It's an absolutely beautiful story. Beautifully written, beautifully done and beautifully ended.

    And beautifully discussed. Thank you for your participation and insights!

    This discussion is now closed. Please join us for Barbara's "Our Wild Days" beginning August 10.