Author Topic: Palace Thief (The) by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online  (Read 70873 times)

pedln

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2015, 10:32:41 AM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

July Book Club Online: July 7-31

The Palace Thief
by Ethan Canin






" I tell this story not for my own honor, for there is little of that here, and not as a warning, for a man of my calling learns quickly that all warnings are in vain..."


"For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught"....("My Way" sung by Frank Sinatra)


"This is a story without surprises..." (Mr. Hundert).


Topic #1: The Character of Mr. Hundert
"Character is fate."---Heraclitus
To start out our discussion, let's focus first on Mr. Hundert and his character. Not "character" as in a book character, but "character" as personal attributes....Here are some possible places to start, choose one or all and let us know what you think:

-What is your opinion of Mr. Hundert?

-What are some ways that Mr. Hundert's character is revealed?

-Did your opinion change as the story went on? Why or why not?

-In the opening lines he says in several ways what the story is not about, so what IS it about?

-Why do you think he is telling this story, and what does that say about him personally?

-Do you think he is a reliable narrator?

-What seems to be the most important thing to him in his life now?

-What part, if any, do you think his age has in the telling of the story?

-Have you ever known a "Mr. Hunderdt?"


Let's discuss Mr. Hundert and his character first..



Interesting Links:

Annotations for The Palace Thief from  Chulalongkorn University   *Spoiler: At the bottom of this list of annotations is a set of questions and a link to an interview with the author about what he intended, so if you don't like to see that type of thing at the outset and would rather think for yourself, don't read down that far. We can decide later if he actually did achieve what he intended to show or if he didn't.


Discussion Leader: Ginny


ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2015, 05:36:13 PM »
Pedln, what a charming story!! Isn't it the funniest thing that once you read about something you suddenly see it everywhere? Did you lose a post here? In answer to the post I saw at lunch but SIRI refused to answer, I'd tear it out and paste it back in.  That way nobody can blame you for anything. :)

Safe trip!!

pedln

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2015, 03:23:40 PM »
Yes, I did lose a post, but figured I'd done something dumb, like not click on reply.

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2015, 04:45:59 PM »
No, you are fine, I saw it earlier. It may have been a glitch of some kind. But now we're back, and we are still tweaking the website, but it looks really good. It appears stable, it's much faster, and it was  a pleasure to watch the upgrade process.

Until we get everything straightened out if you find that the size of the print here is too small and you're not on an iPad or something were you can immediately adjust it,  the best thing to do if you're on the computer is to find the control button on your keyboard (Ctrl) and while holding it down with your left hand reach over with your right hand and hit the plus button.  And you can adjust the size of the font on the entire website any size you like until we get it where we want it.

It's a good thing to get this done before 4 July holiday and before our discussion starts on July 7.

Everyone is welcome!

Frybabe

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2015, 07:28:08 PM »
The book is waiting for me at the library. Will pick it up tomorrow.

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2015, 08:26:01 PM »
Super. I'm going to read it again myself on the 5th.

I think it would be a good idea if I try to  explain for those who are new the direction this discussion will take on the 7th?

In essence I like to think of us in somebody's living room with a roaring fire or this time of year out on a sun porch sitting around having a conversation together. We will have read the entire novella and nothing in it is off base.

Even tho we all have our own ideas, it's always good to remember that we're having a conversation here and talk to the others, too, or reference their ideas.

What I thought I'd do is try to have one topic or question for your consideration to start us off with. Hopefully it will be something that we all have thoughts on, in an ideal world... but  sometimes that doesn't happen, and if it doesn't, feel free to bring up a new topic and we'll put it in the heading for the next day and so on.

But the idea is to have an enlightening thoughtful conversation with each other  about some of the issues the book raises. We do NOT seek consensus,  and there are no right or wrong answers. I already see by reading the link in the heading that what Dr. Canin feels the book was about  is not what I got out of it, and that's OK. He's said what it's about, I only see a small part of that, I see something different,  or perhaps I am off on the wrong track. Either way, I am hoping to emerge from an enjoyable book talk with more understanding than I brought in.

I'll post the first Topic for Your Consideration (if I can narrow them down to one) on July 6th so you can have some advance notice.

See you on the 7th, come on in any time and begin on the 7th.


bellamarie

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2015, 12:01:31 PM »
Just got my book!  I read a couple of the other stories and enjoyed them as well.  Very thought provoking.... 

Ya'll have a Happy 4th of July!! 

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2015, 03:36:16 PM »

And the same to you!  :)

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2015, 04:01:58 PM »
OH for heaven's sake my post is not here - I know I posted because I remarked to Bellamarie how cute was her card - no big anything lost - just did not think we lost anything during the change over and evidently we did but it must be minor.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #49 on: July 04, 2015, 04:20:39 PM »
I'm sorry you lost a post. The upgrade was done June 30, so that shouldn't affect any posts made after the 3rd  of July when her card was put in here.

Very frustrating to lose a post, I agree.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #50 on: July 04, 2015, 06:26:51 PM »
hmm - it was not today - so maybe the card is in another discussion as well and I assumed it was here - regardless it was no big deal only that I had not noticed we lost any posts and so I was surprised but maybe now I am wrong and the card was as I say in another discussion and the post I assumed is lost is really simply in another discussion - ah so - as I say nothing to be concerned over. I think the change over went super well.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

jane

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2015, 09:57:48 PM »

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2015, 10:01:17 PM »
 ;D  :-*
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2015, 04:13:41 PM »
Uh, Oh! Ginny, the annotations links to some old PBS presentations of the Roman Empire I don't think I've seen, or don't remember seeing. Guess what I am going to do tonight.


ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2015, 05:04:13 PM »
;) Let  us know if any of them are any good, I noticed that, but am not familiar with them.

Frybabe

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2015, 06:10:06 AM »
I watched "Order from Chaos"  last night, and yes, I had seen it before. It is narrated by Sigourney Weaver. It is about the rise of Octavian and interposes his rule with the life of Ovid. The overview of Augustus's life just that; it skimmed over or didn't address much. Barely a word about Livia or his progeny except for Julia. She was treated rather kindly for the most part. The more interesting, but just as bare-bones, is Ovid's life which I didn't know/forgotten about. His "poetry" lost something in translation, I think. The quotes sounded more like a love manual than poetry. It would have sounded better in Latin. Since these were the writings that got him in trouble with Augustus, there was not one word of Metamorphoses.
Episode 2  skips to Caligula, Episode 3 takes us to Claudius, and Episode 4 does Trajan.

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2015, 11:59:26 AM »
Interesting, Frybabe, thank you so much! I may have to look into the Ovid part, I have never heard of the series.


ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2015, 12:06:11 PM »
And here we are,  beginning our first book discussion on our brand new site, (hit Control and Plus on your keyboard to make the print larger) and it's a novella I have long wanted to discuss with our discerning readers: the 50 page The Palace Thief.

To start us off tomorrow, Tuesday, June 7th,  as promised, here is the first focal point of the discussion. Sometimes when I would start a discussion with one topic or one focal point, the way I worded it left folks kind of at a loss, wondering how to approach it. Such as "what's this story about?"

So this time I thought if we were sitting face to face I would ask you what do you THINK about William Hundert? What is your opinion of him, his character? Since I can't see your reactions, I thought I'd try to help by listing a few approaches. If you don't like any of them, don't use them, it's just to spur conversation.

Here, I've repeated from the "heading," (the first post on top of  every page with the photo in it) our focus first:




Topic #1: The Character of Mr. Hundert
"Character is fate."---Heraclitus
To start out our discussion, let's focus first on Mr. Hundert and his character. Not "character" as in a book character, but "character" as personal attributes....Here are some possible places to start, choose one or all and let us know what you think:

-What is your opinion of Mr. Hundert?

-What are some ways Mr. Hundert's character is revealed?

-Did your opinion change as the story went on? Why or why not?

-In the opening lines he says in several ways what the story is not about, so what IS it about?

-Why do you think he is telling this story, and what does that say about him personally?

-Do you think he is a reliable narrator?

-What seems to be the most important thing to him in his life now?

-What part, if any, do you think his age has in the telling of the story?

-Have you ever known a "Mr. Hunderdt?"


Let's discuss Mr. Hundert and his character first..

The doors open tomorrow morning for your thoughts. Don't wait for me, jump right in!

Let's see if we can get to the bottom of this very carefully written piece.

Everyone is welcome!

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2015, 07:34:26 AM »
Good morning, good morning, good morning! The day has arrived at last. I actually couldn't sleep I was so excited. I read this again yesterday, for the ?? th time and saw something different. Why do I see something different every time? It's like a will o the whisp.

What does he want? I went to bed thinking. What IS it he wants? Why are there so many remarks about character? What does that mean? Does he then cause that last scene, the picture showed an old man "with a proud and foolish smile?"

Who IS this man, that's the question. It's hard to even pin down one aspect of his personality  because in the next frame to me he seems to change it. What does he really want and why the coda here? The last scenes with Deepak?

How do YOU see him?  How is his character being revealed? I don't want to spoil anybody's ideas, I like to wait and then see if mine are too far out  to even mention. And they usually are.  The caring teacher? A moral man? Proud at the last that he spoke up? What a story!


So who he? Everyman?

The floor is now open for your thoughts.  Hopefully each of us will disagree. There are no right or wrong answers. Even if we disagree with the author, book discussions are about what it seems to you and why you think so. And how you can prove it with the test. Sometimes an author will intend one thing but end up showing another. We have seen that before in our discussions. This is going to be such FUN!

  What do you make of Mr. Hundert?


pedln

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2015, 04:16:58 PM »
Always scary to be the first one in line.  And I can see already that I'll definitely be doing some re-reading.

I'm not sure that I like Mr. Hundert as a teacher.  Where is the joy in his teaching?  Where is his compassion? He speaks of dullards and dull boys and do-nothings.  No where do I hear him talking about the pleasure of teaching these boys.


Jonathan

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2015, 05:01:38 PM »
Is this what it means to be a teacher? Oh, the agony and the ecstasy. The teacher of history finds himself caught up in it. Compelled to add his chapter. To set the record straight? The teacher of character is left puzzled by his own. Ginny asks, in a very thought-provoking first post, was Mr Hundert a caring teacher, a moral man? No teacher could have been more caring. ('That school was my life.')
 But after forty years he's left completely demoralized, seeking some honest company in Deepak Mehta. The story opens with an unusual paragraph of a conflicted soul trying to get at the truth. And right through the story we're treated to  an unusual array of sentiment and thought and commentary on the times. This one really grabbed me:

'At the time, of course, the country was in the throes of a violent, peristaltic rejection of tradition, and I felt a particular urgency to my mission of staying a course that had led a century of boys through the rise and fall of ancient civilization.'

Peristaltic? Only a medical man (the author) could have come up with that!! On the other hand was he justified in including John Foster Dulles and Henry L. Stimson among the early students?

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2015, 06:21:18 PM »
Welcome, Pedln!! Welcome back home after your trip and Jonathan! I am so glad to see you both as I feared I was going to have to start talking to self (not that I don't) and here you are!

I know two of us are still traveling and I hope everybody can get here soon.

What wonderful points.

ISN'T he a puzzle? I swing back and forth like a monkey between trees about him. NOT counting Kevin Kline's character in the movie, this book is different, let's do the book first so we can appreciate what the filmmakers did.

Pedln, that's a super observation  about the joy of his teaching and his comments. I recall one about a common wood beetle would know more than XXX.  I'm not sure what that is....I mean I lack words to understand what that shows in a person's personality, what that demonstrates in his thinking.

But then at the end when the helicopter brought in the "boys" 41 years later, what joy he had in seeing them, I was just grinning and so happy for him and so startled to realize he had NOT gone down to meet them, he was joyous from afar, from the window. They were grown men. Anybody who has met a student 41 years later can be forgiven if that paunchy bald grandfather  is not one he recognizes immediately.

That seems to be his...style: distance.  And when he IS close, like at the end with Deepak, who has now  two times shared the fact he's had a heart attack, he remarks "But I'm afraid there must always be a reticence between a teacher and his student."  HUH? He doesn't even say oh I'm sorry, how are you? Nothing. Is he still trying to be teacher now? To a college professor?

This AFTER he's turned on the TV to facilitate conversation between  Deepak  and  him.

I would SAY he's not good at personal relationships, or he's shy, or he's stiff...do you notice, am I the only one who has remarked.... on his quaint use of language? Capers, Sedgewick was leading the boys in capers?

He's almost from another era.

 But  he had a relationship with Charles Ellerby, didn't he. He was joyous to find a friend who shared his passion, or as Jonathan says, his "mission." We can understand that. We can vicariously share that.

I wonder if his "mission" was the most important thing in his life so that he ignored the right thing to do...over and over actually.

Jonathan, this was  priceless:  "The teacher of history finds himself caught up in it. Compelled to add his chapter. To set the record straight? The teacher of character is left puzzled by his own. "

Yes I think he IS conscious of his legacy. And now he's retired. Note the quote about the ONE mistake in life does not ruin a legacy or something like that. And we can see his life in the boardinghouse. But he can still walk 3 miles a day he hastens to add. I'm not dead yet.

You know why fiction is sometimes important? Because in it we can see ourselves and truths. There are a lot of truths here we can learn from.  But what ARE they? They change in every sentence.  And I missed the Henry Stimpson, because I did not know his dates. OR John Foster Dulles. What does THAT mean? Is he lying to US? Or did the author not look those up?

The story opens with an unusual paragraph of a conflicted soul trying to get at the truth Oh my goodness, what a statement. IS he? DOES he?

I love this book because no man is only one thing or the other. No man is only good. It's like watching a tug of war between the two halves. The trick is, which half  has won here?   And why?

I am so glad we are discussing it together.


Frybabe

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #62 on: July 08, 2015, 07:03:39 AM »
Good morning, all. Sorry about not being in here yesterday. I was playing chauffeur for George who had his second cataract surgery. My how cataract surgery has changed since I had mine done. Mine were done when I was 45 and they still did cut and stitch.

I am not sure how I feel about Hundert. Several quotes pop into my head, "oh, what a tangled web we weave..." and especially, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." He certainly has put himself in a sort of hell with his self-doubts, regrets, and self-recriminations. Instead of focusing on all the successes, he chooses to focus on one perceived failure. Were there others?

A few things do come to mind when I think of Hundert: naive to some extent, introspective, perhaps one-dimensional, shame.

We see relatively nothing of his relationships with other people, he has a few "friends", no love interests, very little mention of outside interests other than he likes his, not surprisingly, solitary walks.  Nor does he seem to take much notice of the current world events which are shaping his students as much or more than ancient history. Here, he may have failed in showing how what happened in ancient times has relevancy in today's world.



ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #63 on: July 08, 2015, 09:36:05 AM »
Frybabe, so good to see you here! Yesterday must have been unofficial Eye Day as my husband suffered an injury to his eye, thankfully it appears for now all is well.

What good points on Mr. Hunderdt!  "Nor does he seem to take much notice of the current world events which are shaping his students as much or more than ancient history. Here, he may have failed in showing how what happened in ancient times has relevancy in today's world. "

Oh good catch. For an historian  which I am not, it does seem to be a bit odd that history's constant repeating itself is not something he'd cite to his students. I'm thinking of Al Quida (sp and who cares) and ISIS in particular relation to the Sequanians and Ariovistus.

 I also like your calling him "naive,"  and "introspective," Frybabe, would you all agree with that? He's kind of stuck in some ways.  Are there parts of his story we can feel in sympathy with?

I can't get over how carefully and with what skill this book is written. How skillfully  the author has both sucked us INTO the world of Mr. Hunderdt, who does have qualities we can admire (does he?) and who is diffident, seems humble (does he?) and caring. He's lost, isolated,  in his own world which he created and which he quite likes: teacher.

And what that means to him. It protects him, to me,  sets him apart, it gives him honor and distance from other interactions (and people),  and he attained that in his career, he had a long career without outward incident, only to be betrayed.

It's how he handles the betrayals, and there are many in this short story,  which I find fascinating. I think betrayal will have to be another theme we look at later. And who betrays him.

Would you all find him "passive aggressive?" How does he handle problems?

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2015, 11:25:26 AM »
When I first read this book, as I've said, I saw the movie first. And I was charmed by the movie and Kevin Kline and really took to Mr. Hundert because everyone who has taught a long time faces similar scenes where a moral imperative is necessary and the teacher has a lot of power over his own kingdom or classroom which is really the way Mr. Hundert approached it, I think.  Note that  his career was 41 years ago when he tells (us? Who IS he telling?)  this story.

And as a teacher of arcane subjects I can identify with a lot of Mr. Hundert's feelings.

But the book, upon reading and rereading is showing me a lot of different things than I remembered from the movie, and which are startling to me. And I think on this last rereading I really see a stunning thing I never noticed before. I may be wrong (and often am) but am excited to get to that part at the end. It sort of is the icing on the cake of realizing what's actually happening.

bellamarie

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #65 on: July 08, 2015, 12:45:04 PM »
Hello all!  I too was on the road to a wonderful lakefront cottage, to spend a glorious day doing nothing but watching my grandkids enjoy the sun and water.  I knew I needed a getaway, but gee, never realized how much until I sat there on the deck, just relaxing and chatting with family & friends.  One friend in particular is a book addict like me, and saw The Palace Thief sitting on the table, and asked about it.  I told her my online book club was going to begin discussing it on the 7th.  She asked me what it was about.  I told her, "It's only 50 pages long, and deals with the character in a person and morals." 

Now how is that for a quick short version, of my take on the story? 

Ginny you posed some very good questions to spur on conversation, and I have to tell you that almost every one of them I struggled with before ever seeing them.  This story left me thinking for days after reading it.  I'm still pondering over it.  So, you say let's begin with Mr. Hundert, so we shall.

What is your opinion of Mr. Hundert?

As a teacher of fifteen years, in a private Catholic elementary school (K-8th gr), I was excited to know this story was about a teacher, in a similar type of school. Mr. Hundert, for me was disappointing.  I am a person who believes in honesty, integrity, and fairness at all times.  So, when Mr. Hundert decided to alter the outcome of who would participate in the contest, immediately I was annoyed.  But actually, from the very instant Sedgewick Bell entered Mr. Hundert's classroom, I felt, he became the one in command.  He not only intimidated all the rest of the students, who were wearing togas, but he also saw he intimidated Mr. Hundert.

As young Sedgewick Bell stood in the doorway of that classroom his first day at St. Benedict's, however, it was apparent that such efforts would be lost on him.  I could see that he was not only a dullard but a roustabout. 

I had taught for several years already, as I have said, and I knew the look of frightened, desperate bravura on a new boy's face.  Sedgewick Bell did not wear this look.  Rather, he wore one of disdain.  The boys, fifteen in all, were instantly intimidated into sensing the foolishness of their improvised cloaks, and one of them Fred Masoudi, the leader of the dullards__though far from dullard himself__said, to mild laughter, "Where's your toga, kid?"  Sedgewick Bell answered, "Your mother must be wearing your pants today."  It took me a moment to regain the attention of the class__"
[/b]

Here at this moment, is where Sedgewick knew he not only was in charge of the students, but also the teacher.   Everything that transpires after this day, was ultimately controlled by Sedgewick.  As a teacher, I saw many Sedgewick's walk into my classroom, and realized immediately, I would have to show this student, and my classroom as a whole, who was in control, or else I would lose respect of the students.  I indeed, began to lose respect for Mr. Hundert at this time.  Not, to say he could not earn back my respect throughout the story. 

Off on another day out so will check back later.  I love all the comments everyone has, and Barb I saw your comment earlier, and glad you enjoyed the card.   :)
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2015, 02:48:53 PM »
I spent yesterday traveling, and only got in at 2 am, so I'm going to have to wait until my brain makes it all the way back (I think it's going over the Appalachians about now).  But I'm very glad we're discussing this story, because I have all sorts of conflicting ideas about it, and I'm not sure what I think.  I'll be back.

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2015, 03:22:09 PM »
Welcome back, Bellamarie, and Pat!  There's nothing like a short break to recharge batteries!

That's a very good summary, Bellamarie. :)

This is a very good point, Bellamarie: "But actually, from the very instant Sedgewick Bell entered Mr. Hundert's classroom, I felt, he became the one in command.  He not only intimidated all the rest of the students, who were wearing togas, but he also saw he intimidated Mr. Hundert."

Why, do you think? Why did that happen? What was it in Mr. Hunderdt's character which allowed this TO happen? I think he said it was early on in his career, maybe in the first five years, he would have been young, himself.

I think for a lot of reasons this is a crucial scene tho it does not appear so initially, in the plot.

Pat, I am so glad you agree, I'm also glad we're discussing it. It's perfect for a book discussion and I'm glad we finally got around to it after all these years. I'm like you, full of conflicting ideas which change daily. I'm almost afraid to read it again lest I discover something else I missed.

Can't wait to hear what you think!

Tomorrow and Friday I have a little overnight visitor. I intend to get in here early and late both days but in the interim,  do feel free to talk to each other about this enigma of a book.

We'll have a good old fashioned gab fest! :)


Jonathan

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2015, 04:02:19 PM »
Mr. Hundert intimidated? Not on your life. As it turns out, in the end Mr. Hundert is captivated by Sedgewick Bell who get's more than his share of the teacher's attention.

But of course young Bell is a problem and Ginny asks: 'How does he, Mr. Hundert the teacher, handle problems?' Let me quote:

'At a boy's school, of course, punishment is a cultivated art. Whenever one of these (Bell's) antics occurred, I simply made a point of calling on Sedgewick Bell to answer a question. General  laughter usually followed his stabs at answers, and although Sedgewick himself usually laughed along with everyone else, it did not require a great deal of insight to know that the tactic would work. The organized events began to occur less frequently.'

Mr Hundert, after all, is deterimined to mold the boys' characters. Young Bell succeeds in seducing his teacher into compromising his principles.

Only 50 pages long...but what a long, long journey. Fory years of teaching and in the end a somewhat bitter, disillusioned old man, being very hard on himself.

First paragraph: 'I tell this story...only to record certain foretellable incidents in the life of a well-known man, in the event that the brief candle of his days may sometime cone under the scrutiny of another student of history. That is all.'
What irony!
Marj, the comment you made, in Library, about the Hilary Mantel book, seems very apt in this story:

'She starts out writing about the childhoods of Robespierre and two of his revolutionary acquaintenances.  Since so little is known of their earliy lives, she has IMO done a great job of writing about them based on what is known of their later lives.'

I hope you don't mind my quoting it.

PatH

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #69 on: July 08, 2015, 04:24:40 PM »
Jonathan:
Quote
Young Bell succeeds in seducing his teacher into compromising his principles.

I feel that Bell is a person who manages to corrupt those around him, sometimes deliberately, and sometimes just by what he's like.

bellamarie

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #70 on: July 08, 2015, 05:08:19 PM »
Jonathan
Quote
Mr. Hundert intimidated? Not on your life. As it turns out, in the end Mr. Hundert is captivated by Sedgewick Bell who get's more than his share of the teacher's attention.

I am not surprised we disagree, but as you point out: 
Quote
Young Bell succeeds in seducing his teacher into compromising his principles.

Anyone who can get you to compromise your own principles, has a command over you.  I see intimidation, by Mr. Hundert's first impression, comments and actions with Sedgewick.  Mr. Hundert, sends Sedgewick to the board to "copy out the emperors.  Of course, he did not know the names of any of them, and my boys had to call them out, repeatedly correcting his spelling as he wrote in a sloppy hand:"  all the while lifting and resettling the legs of his short pants in mockery of what his classmates were wearing.  "Young man,"  I said, "this is a serious class, and I expect that you will take it seriously."  "It it's such a serious class, then why're they all wearing dresses?"  he responded, again to laughter, although by now Fred Masoudi had loosened the rope belt at his waist and the boys around him were shifting uncomfortably in their togas.  From the first day, Sedgewick Bell was a boor and a bully, a damper to the illumination of the eager minds of my boys and a purveyor of the mean-spirited humor that is like kerosene in a school such as ours."

Mr. H. can see this one individual, has turned his classroom upside down in seconds of entering the classroom.  He has resorted to calling him a boor and a bully, and even when he sees he is not the least bit intelligent to the class lesson, he still does compromise his morals and judgement by allowing him to be in the contest.   

But what is more interesting for me, is why would Mr. H., allow this to go on?  Why would he seem to resort to an immature behavior, and begin immediately trying to ridicule Sedgewick by making him go to the board and copy the emperors?  That was like throwing down a challenge, a gauntlet so to speak, letting Sedgewick see he has indeed rattled the teacher, and how does Sedgewick react to this challenge, being told this is a serious class?  He turns right around and cracks a joke.  Showing no respect for the authority of his teacher, and sending the message to the rest of his fellow students, he is in control.  Their reactions are to feel uncomfortable, and show Sedgewick they are bending to him.

Since I have personally dealt with Sedgewicks in my teaching career, what I would have done differently, is have Sedgewick take his seat in class, and give him little to no attention.  Carry on with the lesson. 

Do you suppose it is Mr. H.'s lack of experience, since he has only taught for a few years that has him reacting to Sedgewick?  Or could it be that Mr. H., is a bit bored with teaching this class that conforms to his seriousness, and is looking for a bit of challenge in this "roustabout"?  And, if so, has Mr. H., bitten off more than he expected?

PatH., I have to agree with you. I see Sedgewick has a personality that demands attention, and gets it in whatever way possible.  If disruption is a means to get it, than that is what he will do.  He is young, immature, reckless, spoiled, entitled, challenges authority, and yes, wants acceptance, even if it means getting it in a negative way.   Sadly, Mr. H., buys into it.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2015, 05:32:16 PM »
Only read it yesterday and I've been mulling on it ever since - I've a couple of different reactions -

One reaction is - the story reminded me of Bull Deer during the Rut - there was Mr. Hunderdt in his prime holding onto his herd and along comes a newly matured Bull, Sedgewick Bell fighting for position and then the story continues with one rut after the other of bulls fighting to overwhelm Mr. Hunderdt for relevance till he finally ages and looses his herd.

Then I saw each using their skill, accumulated knowledge and experience in their respective careers as their ammunition to fight for dominance/power suggesting, 'my ammunition has more value than yours for the greater good of the herd'.

Midway in the story there is a change of tone when Mr. Hunderdt seems less full of himself and his sincere concern for teaching moral values is brought out but then his timidity prevents his values from becoming a public statement for others to use as the example of the acceptable measurement for behavior.

I thought the bit about the fear shown for a minute in the face of Sedgewick Bell while on stage a perfect metaphor to the concept of the wizard behind the curtain as in the Wizard of Oz.

In that they, Mr. Hunderdt and Sedgewick Bell are like the twin coin Janus - one looks to the past, ancient hsitory as his ammunition for power and the other looks to the future as a Wizard of Oz that is his ammunition for power.

The author seemed to have cut out and explore only one drama in life - the competition for power and how the choice is made who wears the laurels of power and how those wearing the crown of power show their strengths and their moral weaknesses and finally how the stake holders of power see and evaluate each other.

The story reminded me of becoming a Real Estate Agent - we must attend hours and hours of classes (240 hours) to pass a test that has little to do with helping anyone buy or sell real estate - things like knowing the amount of cement in a driveway of a certain size - never came up in my 35 years of doing the job - or the number of permanent members and the number of appointed members to the Texas Real Estate Commission - only time I ever need TREC is to download, what used to come in pad form before the internet, our contracts and to expect every year or so another addendum will be added or another form or the contract will be significantly changed and the number of hours of education required to renew our license will be changed. Yet, we had to memorize for the test the membership and bylaws of TREC.

Then like Sedgewick in business and in politics - only after we pass this test do we learn what really matters to our mutual pocketbook, how to be acceptable, liked, trusted in order for someone to put in our hands the sale of their most prized and most valuable possession.

And so where I see the author using cheating as the moral issue for this aspect of life, that can or cannot be an issue according to each, who carry out the role of selling to the public or their ability to represent them in politics. Some cheat and some do not who are successful business man, who knows how to bring a product that will please and make money while bringing value to their clients - I have also seen teachers, like our Mr. Hunderdt, who teach from their ego attempting to make it fun or real with ploys like play-acting rather than, teaching students how to get out of the subject what is or will be relevant to their life.

And so, for each tit there is a tat - in other words for each skill that will benefit others as either a teacher or as a public servant in business or in politics there is a moral weakness in each of these characters -

Also, I thought the two in the teaching profession, who are not fully developed were foils for an aspect of creating relationships in the private school teaching world which appears to be one of the arena's for the power rut.  The one, Mr. Hunderdt did think of as an intimate friend, who he shared his thoughts and experiences but who pushes him out of power - Charles Ellerby.  The other, who could have been an intimate friend even though there was an age difference, Mr. Hunderdt thinks it is unseemly to hear of his health issues or share his feelings so, he keeps an emotional distance with Deepak Mehta.

Yep, agree you can go on and on with various aspects of this story - a lot packed into a short story.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Halcyon

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2015, 08:12:50 PM »
So much in 50 pages.  Mr. Hundert's world is St. Benedict's School.  He is the proverbial big fish in a little pond.  I find it interesting that myopia kept him out of the service.  Myopia meaning near sightedness or the blurring of distant objects.  Or, as many of you already pointed out, he seems unable to see beyond the gates of St. Benedict's.  Since he keeps to himself, has no known love interest it occurred to me he might be gay.  This was certainly not a time period to be able to "come out".  This was also a period of great change in our society.  The war overseas had ended but a new war was beginning at home....questioning the establishment.  The Beat Generation, students, beatniks and hippies.  How does a Mr. Hundert cope?  I see the '50s as a rather plastic time, looks good on the outside but not so good behind closed doors.  Everything had to be perfect, matching hats, shoes and purses, don't wear white after Labor Day, don't ask why just do as I say.  I'm rambling but I'm sure you all get the point.  Mr. Hundert feels very safe and secure at St. Benedict's.

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2015, 08:18:24 PM »
Barbara! There you are, I wondered where you were! Lots to chew on in your analysis!

You all are raising a lot of issues which are critical, I think, anyway, to understanding what the author is doing here. And I think next week we will need to look at them, themes if you will, power, betrayal, timidity, for starters. I will make a list over the weekend of your mentioning them  for next week, because the way Mr. Hunderdt reacts to each of these shows his character, which MAY be the point of the story, so subtly done. And it may not.

Jonathan: I did  like your pointing out Marj's quote, how effective that is in comparison with what Canin has done here in portraying Mr. Hunderdt. Or is Mr. Hunderdt doing it?

You quoted:
At a boy's school, of course, punishment is a cultivated art. Whenever one of these (Bell's) antics occurred, I simply made a point of calling on Sedgewick Bell to answer a question. General  laughter usually followed his stabs at answers, and

I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned  that Mr. Hunderdt's way of "punishing" Sedgewick was to humiliate him publicly.  Not once. Not twice. Not three times but apparently continually. This is not in any teacher's manual.

What kind of personality does this type of thing?  How could Sedgewick have known that first day who the Emperors of Rome in order were? That was his first encounter with Mr. Hunderdt. Shades of Barbara's rut thesis but a lot more subtle. More passive. Who could accuse a teacher of asking a question of a new student? Even one a new student could not possibly have known. Isn't THAT a shade of what's coming?


Yes it's true back in the good old days that this type of thing went on for control of a classroom.  What lesson did it teach Sedgewick?

Only 50 pages long...but what a long, long journey. Forty years of teaching and in the end a somewhat bitter, disillusioned old man, being very hard on himself.


IS he? Why am I seeing excuses? Justifications? Who is he trying to convince or impress (?)  in telling his story?  That's an excellent question which is not a question and we need to look at it in more depth or I do anyway. It's tantalizing to feel you're nearing the answer only to have it snatched away in an instant.

What a thing it is to be old. Is that what has prompted Mr. Hundert's ...story? Don't you find that some  things that you passed over in your  youth may now  resound with you in the quiet moments? Maybe that's what's happening to Mr. Hundert.  (I love that name by the way, a twist on hundred... a childish pronunciation of hundred, come to think of it).

Bellamarie said: I see intimidation,  I am wondering on whose part? All teachers have had to deal with Sedgewick Bells in their tenure. Back when I started in the early '60's things were a  lot different then they are today and perhaps this is what Mr. Hunderdt is referring to. These methods he's using are despotic. Could we say these actually are his first mistakes tho he points to a more egregious one later? He, however, does not present himself as despotic but as an idealist with a proven track record of teaching the mighty men to be and the sons of the mighty,  and imparting on them the lessons of history.

Good points! From Everybody.

Barbara said:

Midway in the story there is a change of tone when Mr. Hunderdt seems less full of himself and his sincere concern for teaching moral values is brought out but then his timidity prevents his values from becoming a public statement for others to use as the example of the acceptable measurement for behavior.


Timidity, we are going to have to get up a list of his personal characteristics here, he's timid.  How many many ways does that show up? It's OK to be timid and to be diffident...it's fascinating to me the efforts he goes to to get around that timidity. None of them particularly positive.

Pat: good point: I feel that Bell is a person who manages to corrupt those around him, sometimes deliberately, and sometimes just by what he's like.

I am wondering why Mr. Hunderdt, however, fell under his spell.  He's a child. Bellamarie noted Mr. Hunderdt was also young.  What did Sedgewick mean to Mr. Hunderdt?  Was he thinking that his current class did not have any more John Foster Dulles type students and here was the son of Hiram Bell? Was Sedgewick his chance this year?

He manages to hold back personally  from Deepak, even when Deepak pays him the ultimate compliment TWICE in coming to see him and in reaching out to him personally. A "teacher" could hardly ask for more. 

Barbara said "how the choice is made who wears the laurels of power and how those wearing the crown of power show their strengths and their moral weaknesses..."

What choices for power do you all think Mr. Hunderdt actually has?

Could not ASK for a better beginning to a discussion! Thank you all!




ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2015, 07:16:11 AM »
Halcyon! We were posting together last night, and I missed your post! I wondered where you were, too, and here you are!

I am so glad I decided to read over all of your  great posts  this morning and suddenly there you were, a reward this early morning.

Great points!

I was idly thinking yesterday there are no women at all in this but isn't there a landlady? But  only on the fringes at the end.

 He seems unable to see beyond the gates of St. Benedict's. That's a stunning thought in itself, especially for a man who seems dedicated to molding the future characters in boys. I'm wondering, now that you have talked about myopia,  I wonder which "service" this is? They were still drafting in the early '60's when I taught, but I have the feeling this is intended as an older piece.  In fact when I started some of my 9th graders were only a  year or two  younger than I was. I was 21, and I had some 9th graders who were 19. That was the times. If you failed a student he could be drafted back then, so who fails a student? So they didn't progress but they didn't fail. A different world, and Mr. Hunderdt has made it his own.

Is it a fault, is it his fault,  that Mr. Hunderdt's entire world is bounded by St. Benedicts? That his calling, his mission is to teach?  He's happy, is he happy initially?  Would you say he was a happy man when this all started? Happy with  his place in the world and he doesn't need anybody else and the one time he tries...look what happens.

What would you say makes Mr. Hunderdt happy?

Is he, or the Mr. Hunderdt we meet here, is he presenting himself as a happy disciple of learning or history rising in his own little world (in this is he Everyman, rising in his chosen field, being a good "company man," tho the company in this case is St. Benedicts) who runs afoul of the "one mistake," (he does keep saying it's one mistake) and is now ruefully trying to explain it to us and his own mirror in old age?  It seems to have been a series of blows, tho. Are they connected?  Does his reaction to any of them make them worse?

Would you say this is rueful in tone?

Loved your point about the 50's and '60's, could this have been earlier? What time period DO we think this was? I remember those "dress codes," I remember days you were supposed to wear one color, what a rigid existence the school kids could impose on their own.

Loved this: "Mr. Hundert feels very safe and secure at St. Benedict's."
At least when the story opens he does. But not for long in our story. What seems to be his undoing, do you all think?

His love seems to be......? History?  Teaching? St. Benedicts? A shy bookish man almost living the life of a monk?  Cloistered away with his plaques about Nahhunte and his recitations of Ozymandias, both cautionary tales. I wonder why he is not  thinking they apply to himself.

I was somewhat surprised at his meager living quarters, even tho he says he's moved up in the world of St. Benedicts, I can't imagine a married man trying to live in those conditions, what did you all think about that?

One thing I've been wondering: why did he take the gun, do you all  think? And why did he throw it away?


 

Frybabe

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #75 on: July 09, 2015, 08:21:43 AM »
St. Benedict's, today, still teaches classical education. While there are other St. Benedict's schools, I am assuming this is the one used as the story setting. Richmond is close to Washington, DC where Mr. Hundert spend a day, the only trip mentioned in the story except for the site of the Mr. Julius Caesar rematch.
http://www.saintbenedictschool.org/about-us/classical-education/

I was wondering why Mr. Hundert, upon being forced to retire, would want to stay so close to his final humiliation of being forced out. A final act of his timidity as pointed out earlier? Apparently not having cultivated any outside interests, moving farther away would have put him way out of his comfort zone. For me, I would not have wanted anywhere near a constant reminder of being betrayed by a friend and discarded as obsolete. I can just see him sitting there wallowing over his perceived failure, humiliation and shame to his dieing day. Sad, very sad.

bellamarie

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #76 on: July 09, 2015, 09:45:15 AM »
Ginny,
Quote
I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned  that Mr. Hundert's way of "punishing" Sedgewick was to humiliate him publicly.  Not once. Not twice. Not three times but apparently continually. This is not in any teacher's manual.
Ginny you must have overlooked it, I pointed this out in my #1695 post.
Quote
Why would he seem to resort to an immature behavior, and begin immediately trying to ridicule Sedgewick by making him go to the board and copy the emperors?


 As a teacher I found this method to be humiliating to Sedgewick, and not a way I feel helps him in any way with dealing with his behavior problems.  Sure Mr. H., may have got him to do less antics, but it was because of the ridicule that would come to him.  The same as immediately making him go to the blackboard and listing the emperors knowing he did not have that knowledge, and then allowing it to go on where his students not only had to give him the names, but they laughed at him and helped him spell the names as well.  This really ruffled my feathers when I read this. 

My daughter was treated like this by a teacher in 6th gr. at the private Catholic school I taught at, and I went and confronted the teacher and the principal and told them it is to never happen again.  Ridiculing a student is NOT and NEVER will help them in any way.  My daughter had audio perception disability, and this teacher was aware of it, yet she treated her in front of the class as a joke.  Mr. H., as I said before, lost my respect when I read this, as did my daughter's teacher.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Halcyon

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #77 on: July 09, 2015, 09:46:00 AM »
Looking back in the story on page two Mr. H. tells the reader he met Sedgwick in 1945 after he had been teaching for five years.  So I'm assuming his myopia kept him from fighting in WWII.  Which made me think of a bigger picture.  Maybe Mr. H. represents America.  Looking back should we have entered the war earlier?  Should we have been of much more help to the Jews?  Should we have put our own citizens, Japanese-Americans, in internment camps?  So many questions.  I have to reread the story.  I can't seem to focus on just one notion.  Or maybe it's a combination of everything.  I certainly don't want to be myopic!

bellamarie

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #78 on: July 09, 2015, 10:12:54 AM »
Frybabe,
Quote
I was wondering why Mr. Hundert, upon being forced to retire, would want to stay so close to his final humiliation of being forced out.

I asked myself this question as well.  This story has stuck with me, and left a sadness over me.  As a teacher, I see where Mr. H., made so many critical mistakes from the minute Sedgewick entered his class, to the very end of the story, allowing himself to be manipulated back into the same scenario.  As a parent it just grips at my heartstrings to see how Mr. H., had an opportunity to help this young boy, and failed him.  Instead he seems to have allowed his own selfish, arrogant, insecurities get in his own way of being a better teacher than he could have been.  I got the sense, he as the narrator, was puffing himself up, yet drowning in self pity, self denial, self adoration.  He engages in a game with a young immature student, and can't seem to even let it go in the later years of his life.  I felt it was Karma that came back around and bit him in the a$$, when his thought to be good friend robbed him of his position.  Did he not rob young Sedgwick of his self confidence, being treated the way he was in his class?

Halcyon, you make an interesting point, about the possibility of Mr. H., being gay, although we will never know for certain, since it was never touched on in the story.  At this time it would not be something that could ever be brought out.  He would certainly never be allowed to teach around students, especially boys if it were even suspected. 

Ginny, This is surely a story filled with questions, and questions you have presented to us, excellent ones if I might say so.  It's like a prism, you can look at it and read it from so many different perspectives, and see so many different hues of color each time.  It gives me chills, because from my teaching experience I know we have one shot at helping students like Sedgewick, and we can and have made a huge difference in helping those type of students, yet I feel from a teacher's view, Mr. H., failed him miserably.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Halcyon

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #79 on: July 09, 2015, 11:23:45 AM »
Ginny asked:  In the opening lines he says in several ways what the story is not about, so what IS it about?

First paragraph of story:  "I tell it only to record certain foretellable incidents in the life of a well- known man, in the event that the brief candle of his days may sometime come under the scrutiny of another student of history."

Second paragraph of story: "I taught a boy who, if not for the vengeful recriminations of the tabloids, would today have been president of the United States."

Was he speaking of the same person?  Was it Sedgwick?  Surely he's not talking about himself in the first paragraph?