Author Topic: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online  (Read 63751 times)

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #80 on: October 02, 2015, 01:22:47 AM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

October Book Club Online

Dead Wake
by Erik Larson


"Few tales in history are more haunting, more tangled with investigatory mazes or more fraught with toxic secrets than that of the final voyage of the Lusitania, one of the colossal tragedies of maritime history. It’s the other Titanic, the story of a mighty ship sunk not by the grandeur of nature but by the grimness of man." - ~ New York Times.
 

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:

Week 1: to "Lusitania a Cavalcade of Passengers" p.89
Week 2: to "Lusitania: Helpful Young Ladies: p.191
Week 3: to "All Points Rumor p. 279
Week 4: to end p.353


For Your Consideration:

 
What interested you the most about German submarines? Do you agree they changed warfare forever?   

The two boats themselves are characters in this story. Which do you find more interesting: the chic luxury liner or the crude but deadly submarine? Can  you imagine yourself as captain or crew on either?

Russia recovered copies of the German codebook governing naval communications,  and gave one to Britain.  How important was this to the war?  Does it remind you of something similar in WWII? 

Why was Captain Turner not informed of the possibility of submarine attacks off the coast of Britain?

Were you surprised at the "gas" attacks Germany used on the allies?  And did it remind you of recent events? 



"It took more persistance than I thought, but I finally found it: dead wake is "the trail of a fading disturbance in the water"- PATH



Discussion Leaders:  Ella & JoanK
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Very funny, Barb. Isn't it strange how vivid some early childhood memories are. I'll bet you think of that every time you see a box of Morton salt.

When I lived in Israel, the shopping list was empty bottles (or boxes). Since the shopper and store owner didn't necessarily share a language, the shopper would hand over the empties and get full ones.

JONATHAN: interesting shirim! The ship and iceberg waiting for each other. this book has something of the same feeling, as the author sends us alternately between ship and U-boat, drawing closer and closer.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #81 on: October 02, 2015, 01:32:35 AM »
JONATHAN: " Far from fading into still waters, the sunken Lusitania had consequences that made it a memorable part of WWI."

Too true. But is it a "dead wake" now, as few the memory fades away.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10917
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #82 on: October 02, 2015, 04:26:28 AM »
In this section we get a glimpse of the start of President Woodrow Wilson's courtship of widow Edith Galt, co-owner of Galt's jewelry store.  That was an old DC landmark, looking like it hadn't changed much since Lincoln took his watch there for repairs.  It wasn't just for rich people; ordinary folk shopped there too.  Bob and I bought our wedding rings there.

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2011/03/08/today-in-d-c-history-d-c-s-oldest-business-closes-up-shop/

That picture is from1915, but it looked pretty much like that up to the end.  It closed in 2001, just short of 200 years old.

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #83 on: October 02, 2015, 11:53:09 AM »
We have not heard from some of our other passengers.  Are they seasick?  How awful it must be to look forward to a trip and spend the time in the hospital ward!

I hope they have been reading a few pages of our book and have some comments!!

Shall we ask the steward to knock on their door to see if they are all right?   Or are they just sleeping in late, relaxing!

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11233
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #84 on: October 02, 2015, 12:06:50 PM »
nice web site with details about Charles Lauriat, a Boston bookstore owner traveling for business.

http://www.rmslusitania.info/people/saloon/charles-lauriat/
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #85 on: October 02, 2015, 12:35:57 PM »
Ella, good idea.  Send a steward to see if they are all right.  Do we have any volunteers to knock on the doors?

I love these interesting personal stories.  I do remember the Galt jewelry store, Pat...though never purchased anything there.  It was a landmark.  Now Edith Galt comes alive -through that association.

Funny - never a patron of Galt Jewelers, though have been by it.  Never sailed an ocean liner, though did spend a day at a bon voyage party on the Queen Mary in the New York harbor seeing off a high school classmate, whose grandmother sent Janet and her cousin Mimi abroad as a graduation present.  What I remember about that day - the excitement, as if this was a huge party - the sumptuous buffet set up in the luxurious dining room and then the shock of the tiny accomodations.  I guess I'm claustrophobic.   I remember thinking if in their place, I'd spend all or most of my time above board.  A deck chair, lots of blankets.  The only way to go for me

I've also been on a submarine...a nuclear sub - back in the 60's.  My stepmother's brother was a doctor aboard this huge submarine, which did not resemble at all Captain Sweitzer's ship.  We didn't go to sea-  just toured the ship.  I'm wondering now how many submarines are active in today's navy.  We don't hear much about submarine warfare today, or do we?

Barbara, your post has me thinking hard abiut what war does to people -  "With the high percentage of German people in the US they did not think Germany would attack even a British ship,,,"   
Hard to believe German subs would not hesitate to sink ships carrying  Americans, perhaps German nationals, perhaps relatives.  I suppose war is war.  I have a hard time separating the demands of war and human sentiment. 

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10917
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #86 on: October 02, 2015, 12:50:51 PM »
Ella, you wondered about the shifts of the boiler workers.  Since 100 were working at a time, and there were 300, they must have worked 8 hour days, but if they divided it up by "watches", it could have been in two 4 hour chunks?

I noticed that Cunard learned from the Titanic disaster, and had many more lifeboats. (but of course the economy passengers got a cheaper kind).
It wasn't just Cunard.  The rules were changed; linerswere required to have enough lifeboats for everybody.

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11233
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #87 on: October 02, 2015, 02:10:59 PM »
JoanP - I have a hard time separating the demands of war and human sentiment. I think that is a privilege we enjoy because we in the US believe in the individual - individual decision making, one vote for one man, justice for individuals - where as anyone serving in any army has a command they obey - and German's were very Patriarchal with little to no room for sentiment even within the average family.

Music seems to be the only acceptable release for sentiment because even German art after the baroque period was more organized with few flowing lines and shapes. Bauhaus, Kandinsky, Kahnweiler, Gleizes, August Macke etc.

Here is a 1910 German Poster

OH my look - some startling Art by the Brits and Belgium artists depicting the sinking of the Lusitania - good grief German soldiers spearing babies - well given what we know now about the Holocaust I guess so...



For heavens sake...!
Interior of a German Sub 1914

Interior of a US Submarine 1914
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #88 on: October 02, 2015, 04:46:24 PM »
:JoanP - I have a hard time separating the demands of war and human sentiment.

This book really raises that issue. In this section, we read that the U-boat commanders are all over the place in what they do AFTER they sink a ship. Some will sink the ship: no problem. But when they see the individual crew struggling in the water, try really hard to rescue them. Others never rescue anyone, pointing out that these are enemies who, if rescued, will come back to kill Germans. 

What do you think?

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #89 on: October 02, 2015, 05:00:18 PM »
Those of us on deck are having great fun, exchanging stories and pictures.  Love every minute of it, every story.

There is so much to discuss in this book isn't there?  Every chapter could be one week's discussion.

"there existed a widespread, if naïve, belief that war .........had become obsolete." pg.25

And this:

"At the beginning of the war, neither Germany nor Britain understood the true nature of the submarine or realized that it might produce what Churchill called 'this strange form of warfare hitherto unknown to human experience.'" pg.30

The first WWII had begun.  What an awful time to be president.  How did President Wilson cope! 

A bit similar to FDR and WWII don't you think?  Surprise, surprise - America, wake up.




Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #90 on: October 02, 2015, 05:06:51 PM »
Yes, let's have stewards knock on a few doors:   There is DAVID and next to him is his mother, MARIE.  And further along that corridor is HALCYON.

And we have yet to see NLHOME and MARJFAY. So knock on their doors also. 


Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #91 on: October 02, 2015, 05:19:59 PM »
Let's begin with the first question: 'Did you know much about the Lusitania before beginning this book?'

No, I did not, other than that the Lusitania sinking was part of the WWI story. My curiousity is easily aroused. What did really happen? It seems to me Erik Larson has recreated the times and the details of the sinking in an interesting way. Terribly tragic, of course, and we'll get to that soon enough. But hasn't he found a lot of interesting detail. Add to that the research talents of our little group and we're in for a great read. Now what should I make of this?

"When Edith Galt heard the President propose marriage, she nearly fell out of bed."

And those pictures posted by Ella. I believe I would like to be the captain of a little tugboat. Have you seen it pushing the big Lusitania around in the harbor?

And then there is the curious trivia. All found in Lusitania's wake. Incredible.

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #92 on: October 02, 2015, 05:47:43 PM »
Fortunately, JONATHAN, we have divided up the book into four sections and hope we can keep within those boundaries.  So much information, trivia, yes, but so interesting.  No one could be bored when reading this book.   Larson is famous for this and as you can see from his NOTES it is factual.  Such research! 

Did you read his SOURCES AND ACKNOWLEDGMENTS? pg.355  He was everywhere reading, reading, reading.  Great Britain, Germany, Denmark, libraries, books  He had a special nod to England, the archives in London, Liverpool and Cambridge.  "There will always be an England and I am so very glad" pg.356

But I digress from our conversation!  Back to the deck and more conversation.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #93 on: October 02, 2015, 07:06:29 PM »
JOANP: YOU'VE BEEN ON A SUBMARINE? NEAT!

Is it as claustrophobic as I've always thought? I rode in a tank once, and couldn't wait to get out of there!

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #94 on: October 03, 2015, 11:25:02 AM »
I 've seen and toured a submarine, JOANP.  It was docked, along with a couple of other navy vessels, in a harbor somewhere along the east coast; my mind, my  memory is faulty and it was on a trip we took.  I was horrified thinking of men living underneath the sea in that vessel, I forget what amount of time they usually went on a mission during war time.  It was a WWII sub and we had a tour guide, who, as I remember (but I don't remember) gave us an enormous amount of information.

As JONATHAN stated we have a lot of interesting details in this book, but what are the facts?  Should we list fact?   Who wants to start???   Let's start with the speed of the ship and the speed of the submarine.

Who can dig those facts up?

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #95 on: October 03, 2015, 02:34:36 PM »
WHERE IS EVERYONE?  SLEEPING WHEN YOU COULD BE ENJOYING THE DEEP BLUE SEA AND THE SKY, ENJOY THE LOVELY DINING ROOM, GREAT NEW PEOPLE TO MEET.  IF YOU HAVE CHILDREN THERE IS SOMEONE TO CARE FOR THEM.

COME OUT, COME ALL

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #96 on: October 03, 2015, 02:40:23 PM »
Meanwhile we are steaming along at 25 knots.  FACT

We don't know it on deck but there is a submarine that can make 15 knots while surfaced; 9 knots submerged.  FACT ......  And it is hunting. 

Trivia and facts - they  make for a fascinating book!

New questions in the heading.

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #97 on: October 03, 2015, 02:47:36 PM »
A U-boat:


Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #98 on: October 03, 2015, 05:49:04 PM »
You are so right, Ella. One should read first the Sources and Acknowledgements at the back of the book. I usually do. What a project the author set for himself. And what a book to get immersed in. Very interesting to read how President Wilson was affected by the Lusitania sinking. While mourning the death of his first wife and courting his second.

I've just come home with another book to read. A biography of Colonel Edward M. House, Wilsons close friend and adviser. We meet him early in our book, crossing the Altlantic, on the Lusitania in December 1914, on a peace mission for the president. I believe he helped to bring Edith Galt and the president together. But I'm called to dinner. More later. I find a lot of fascination in the trivia. It adds so much humanity to a story.

ANNIE

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 2977
  • Downtown Gahanna
    • SeniorLearn
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #99 on: October 03, 2015, 06:03:44 PM »
Well, I finished our 89!pages this morning and am really amazed at the spy vs spy intelligence info.  But to begin with, like JoapP, it seems if you have been warned by Germany to stay away from the War Zone,  and the warning is published in the NYTimes that you would not board the Lusitania!!  And why would anyone take children aboard.  One family has 4 children traveling with them.
JoanK, we took a tour of the Queen Mary when we were celebrating our 25th anniversary with a trip from northern CA to southern CA.  Spent the night there also!  Then we celebrated our 35th anniversary on board the Queen Mary when living in Torrance during the '80's!

Loved the stories about the coal bin. After my father died in 1947, the first thing my mother did was have an oil furnace installed.  And no more coal bin so we were helping to build a fort in another kid's backyard,  so we asked for the door.  We installed it in the fort but as will happen with kids,  we came to a parting of the ways and we took our door home.  Then, the city laid cement in an alley behind the houses across our street and there was a hill.  My brother and I installed skate wheels on each corner of the door and spent hours riding it down that hill.  Then we had a shock when mom had our grandfather make a picnic table with our door.😢😢😢 

Thanks for the history of Charles Lauriat, Barb.  I think he probably lost all those valuable books that he didn't think he needed to insure.

And didn't we all like seeing PatH's photo of the inside of the Galt Jewelry store on the day of Edith and Woodrow Wilson's wedding.  Thanks, PatH.

I am now looking vinto another set of passengers who are sailing on May 1st.  Back later.
'
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10917
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #100 on: October 03, 2015, 06:31:17 PM »
Ella, you asked how fast the Lusitania could go.  26 knots, which is almost 30 miles per hour.  (A knot is a nautical mile per hour, which is 1.15 land miles per hour.). Turner said he wasn't afraid of submarines because he could outrun them, as he had on several occasions already.  Of course that wouldn't help if the sub was lying in wait for him.

ANNIE

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 2977
  • Downtown Gahanna
    • SeniorLearn
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #101 on: October 03, 2015, 06:34:02 PM »
Remember the unhappy Margaret Mackworth who didn't want to leave NY and return to England?   Here's what happened to her:

http://www.rmslusitania.info/people/saloon/margaret-mackworth/

"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10917
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #102 on: October 03, 2015, 06:58:16 PM »
That's quite a story.  What a life; she did indeed do something with the life that was spared.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #103 on: October 03, 2015, 07:08:44 PM »
ANNIE: that's absolutely fascinating. What a life she had!

nd I love your many uses for the door to the coal bin!

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #104 on: October 03, 2015, 07:19:46 PM »
Who agrees with ANNIE: should the passengers have sailed? Should the ship have sailed? Why do we continue in the shadow of disaster? (I'm thinking too of the many who live near Mt. Vesuvius.)

ginny

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 90391
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #105 on: October 03, 2015, 07:41:01 PM »
Just a note to say I am LOVING the passenger manifest for our voyage here, how exciting. It's almost like an Agatha Christie mystery: a fated ship, a diverse group and a lurking murderer...or was he?

There are a lot of rumors going around about the Lusitania and what she was carrying. I am interested to see how this plays out.

Cruising other than this virtual cruise,  tho, I don't think is my thing. My husband and I went on two cruises, when we were in our 30's with friends. I went on one of those giant ferries from Greece to Crete a couple of years ago overnight in a very nice cabin on a surprising giant ferry thing. That's it. I see people on a site called Cruise Critic who list their cruises at the end of their posts, they  take several a year. I wonder who holds the record for the "most cruises in a year?"  Seems like Carnival whose company owns almost all of the cruise lines, should pay THEM.

 Of the two real cruises we took 40+ years ago,  one  was the maiden voyage of one of the Royal Caribbean ships, big suite, very nice, etc. The second was on the QEII and it was 11 days. We quickly  discovered several things at the same time:  namely, cruising is not for us. We've both got claustrophobia but not to the point that I thought it mattered. It does.  Or it did then. That bathroom on the QEII!

I will admit there was romance in just  being on that ship. I loved the steamer trunks in the hall (this was over 40+ years ago).  There was no room for them in the staterooms. I loved the history of the ship and the captain's announcements and his humor. Once going into the same port another huge ship (for the era) out maneuvered him. He had referred to the captain of that ship as his "friend,": prior to that.  That friend became  "my erstwhile friend," as he had to pull out. I loved the tea every afternoon.  Real British tea. 

On both ships we hit some rough patches. On the QEII we were in the tail end of a hurricane.  The chairs at the dining table rolled up to the table and back, up to the table and back.  The captain did not put the stabilizers on because it wasn't rough, to him.  The bathroom was the worst, it magnified the walls moving in the mirror.   Needless to say everybody BUT my husband was seasick. The staff said it was always rough coming over from  England at that time of year, in fact one of the hairdressers had to be taken off in NYC.

 My husband loved it. We'd sit on the front deck while they tried to tie down the chairs and the waves splashed up and he'd  say "look at that power."  Yeah.

I found it interesting that the ship's staff referred to a certain day in those long cruises when after that normally relationships get a tad sour. They had a name for it.  I am not surprised. But I did learn how the British do hair curling with a brush and have done it ever since.  The food was out of this world, it really was.

On the question of why did it sail? The  Lusitania was in the era before passenger jets, right? So it was the only  way to go to and from Europe?  When DID the passenger plane come into being? Hopefully as we get to know the passengers we'll find out why they felt the need to go. Now why the Lusitania itself went is another question and a good one.

Cruise ships today, most of them,  seem a lot different. 50 years ago it was elegant. Dress for dinner.  HAD to eat dinner at one of two sittings. 3 formal nights if I remember correctly. Things were different then.

None of that appealed to me, so I'm glad to see that now one can choose a ship according to how one likes to dress for dinner and eat. There still ARE formal ones if that's what the customer wants.

But you know what? I keep thinking about the Costa Concordia. I keep seeing, as if in a stuck reel of film, those people actually climbing down the entire side of that giant ship, trying to get to the boats. Climbing down the entire side of that multi story ship on a rope ladder....going ...who knows where?  I don't know how they did that.  I am pretty sure I could not. I hope this trip, the one on the Lusitania, will be a smooth one because I have seen too many versions of the Poseidon Adventure to know that I would not be the one swimming thru 80 submerged decks with the rope to save everybody in my mouth.

Oh, there's the chimes  for dinner. I'll see you all there. (If not dealing with mal de mer.) :)


JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #106 on: October 03, 2015, 08:23:06 PM »
I can't believe how tall and narrow these new cruise ships are. The narrowness is deliberate: people get less seasick that way. But why don't they all topple sideways in bad weather?

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11233
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #107 on: October 04, 2015, 07:22:05 AM »
As I understand it JoanK - and it has been years and years since I was associated with boating - but the center or gravity must be as low as possible which on a cargo vessel affects the way the goods are distributed - however on these cruise liners I understand below the water line there are ballast tanks that hold water along the sides, front and aft and according the the sea these tanks are filled or partially emptied - there is a lot of engineering that goes into building a ship because they are affected by what is aboard as well as the wind, waves, tides and currents. 

Anne I love your cellar door story - with wheels - I can feel it now - yelling with excitement and watching ahead to be sure you do not crash and the sound of the wheels - did you use a rope like on a sleigh to steer it - better than these stories you hear of beds put on wheels and used to roll down hills, on a door you are low to the ground. Ha ha I can just see it now as you both struggled taking home your door -  ;D ;D ;D 8)
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 90391
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #108 on: October 04, 2015, 09:05:04 AM »
They don't look seaworthy to me, and they do look as if they would fall over in a wind. They are ugly on top of it, to me.

I watched last night a video of Why the Concordia Sank, an old CGI CNN news item and it was horrifying. It's a miracle anybody got off that thing. The lower decks, because of the damage to the hull, (which was eerily reminiscent of that to the Titanic) just ripped it open and they went floor by floor showing what was flooded and how. It's clear that those who stayed below did not make it.

It's interesting tho in the face of what the captains of these mighty liners seem to feel are invincible ships. On the Lusitania the captain apparently  felt he could outrun a submarine, get out of range. The captain of the Concordia continued to sail and even turned around after he hit the rock instead of evacuating the ship. I'm wondering about the mindset of these captains.

 

Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #109 on: October 04, 2015, 02:24:47 PM »
'Why do we continue in the shadow of disaster?' What an interesting reflection, JoanK. There are so many of us who have always wished to live in California. I do shake my head when I see those lovely homes built into the cliffs overlooking the ocean.

No doubt many passengers on the Lusitania were wished a 'bon voyage' on their departure. Nearly there, and Margaret Mackworth and her friend Dorothy Conner agreed 'the trip had been rather boring.'

'...soon all order on the ship degenerated into panicked chaos.'

Thanks, Annie, for the Lusitania link. Even interesting to go down the passenger lists. I was struck by how many were from Toronto, Canada.

Welcome aboard, Ginny.  This is even better than an Agatha Christie.

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11233
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #110 on: October 04, 2015, 02:48:31 PM »
Another tidbit talking about the seaworthy nature of the ship - The ship was designed by Leonard Peskett, Senior naval architect and Designer and the designer of the companies ocean liners RMS Mauretania, RMS Lusitania, RMS Aquitania, and the RMS Carmania and built by former John Brown and Company of Clydebank, Scotland.

Nice site about John Brown and Company
http://www.gla.ac.uk/services/archives/exhibitions/qe2/johnbrowncompanyclydebankltd/

Oh and this is a great web site about Ship Building in Scotland with many photos
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/research/image-gallery/shipbuilding
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11233
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #111 on: October 04, 2015, 03:03:11 PM »
The ship's name was taken from Lusitania, an ancient Roman province on the west of Iberian Peninsula, the region that is now Southern Portugal and Extremadura in Spain.



Wall tile in Roman Art National Museum in Mérida, capital of Extremadura region in Spain. Mérida is ancient Roman Emerita Augusta, capital of Lusitania province of Roman Empire.


I had no idea there were these kinds of Roman Ruins in Spain but here is the Roman ruin in Mérida that was the capitol of Lusitania

The Greco-Roman historian Diodorus Siculus discribed the Lusitanians as a Germanic tribe: "Those who are called Lusitanians are the bravest of all Cimbri". The Cimbri, an ancient people who, together with the Teutones and the Ambrones, fought the Roman Republic between 113 and 101 BC.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #112 on: October 04, 2015, 03:04:27 PM »
Oh, what fun to come in and read all your comments.  Ann and her coal cellar door, Ginny and cruises; Barbara with shipbuilding.

JOANK and I appreciate all your participation!

Larson used 14  pages in this first section to write about the German submarine and Captain Schwieger, a man described by one friend as "a wonderful man.  He couldn't kill a fly."  

And among his peers and crew he was known for his kindness and good humor.  Another said "his temperament was joyous and his talk full of gaiety and pointed wit."

In order to get men to serve on a submarine the captain would have to be an exceptional man, read pages 62 and 63 about the conditions on a sub.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #113 on: October 04, 2015, 03:18:59 PM »
JONATHAN: " I do shake my head when I see those lovely homes built into the cliffs overlooking the ocean."

There is a place a few miles from where I live in California (called Russian Bend) where the land is so unsteady, there is a sign on the road "caution, the land may shift." Yet people keep building houses by the sea there, and they keep falling into the sea. Someone built a golf course there and the ninth green fell into the sea.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #114 on: October 04, 2015, 03:45:06 PM »
I have claustrophobia: the very idea of "sailing" on a sub gives me the willies. If he managed to make his crew happy, good for him. I imagine the crew would either become very close or want to kill each other.

What do the rest of you think?

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10917
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #115 on: October 04, 2015, 06:32:28 PM »
I think being on the U20 would be like one's worst nightmare, second only to caving and crawling thoough a narrow passage when you don't know if it will widen or not, so you may have to inch backwards, or even get stuck.   You're in a cramped space, crowded in with 30 men, no way to get out, the air getting fouler and fouler, with the constant possibility of gettimg stuck on the bottom and slowly suffocating.  The toilet only gets flushed occasionally, an oil slick hangs in the air, and coats your food and floats on your coffee.  Schwieger must have had excellent people skills to keep things sweet.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10917
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #116 on: October 04, 2015, 06:49:26 PM »
Turner must have had some people skills too, in spite of how bad he was at schmoosing with the passengers.  He was well-liked by his crew, and kept things sweet while maintaining discipline, and that takes skill.

marcie

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 7802
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #117 on: October 05, 2015, 01:24:31 AM »
I am excited that I was able to find the book in my local library in our NEW BOOKS "walk-in" section even though there is a long waiting list for it. I'm ready to join the voyage with the rest of you already on board. I've enjoyed reading your thoughts and related memories. I'm still catching up on your early conversations. PatH, the wonderful photo that you posted of Galt Jewelers made me think that its decor would fit right in with the luxury of some of the Lusitania's facilities. I wonder if they had shops on the boat? Early on in the book there is mention of a passenger on a 1910 voyage complaining that "the ship's decks should not be made a market place for the sale of Irish shawls, etc."

Regarding why people would book passage during the War, I'm wondering how far in advance some would have purchased their tickets.... weeks? months? a year? Perhaps many didn't think that the War would occur or last long. And, probably they, like the Captain, "placed tremendous faith in the gentlemanly strictures of warfare that for a century had kept civilian ships safe from attack."

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #118 on: October 05, 2015, 01:38:55 AM »
I'll bet they did have shops on board, possibly looking something like Galts.

Aberlaine

  • Posts: 180
Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #119 on: October 05, 2015, 01:50:43 AM »
May I join you in your journey?  I got the book from the library and have started to read it avidly.  I was fascinated by how WWI began.  "The war began as a geopolitical equivalent of a brush fire."  Germany, England and France began arming themselves - just because.  Men and their toys!  "An isolated dispute over a murder in the Balkans had become a world conflagration."

Nancy