Cellist of Sarajevo (The) - November Book Club Online

[Jonathan]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

November Book Club Online

The Cellist of Sarajevo
by Steven Galloway

Our selection for November is an award-winning novel that explores the dilemmas of ordinary people caught in the crises of war and examines the healing power of art. "In this beautiful and unforgettable novel, Steven Galloway has taken an extraordinary, imaginative leap to create a story that speaks powerfully to the dignity and generosity of the human spirit under extraordinary duress.." - ~ Cellist of Sarajevo Website. Discussion Schedule November 1 - 2  The Cellist and Part One November 3 - 9  Part Two through the section on Keenan ending with "he knows he has a long way to before he is home again." (p 106 in my copy) November 10 - 15 Rest of Part Two November 16 - 23  Part Three November 24 - 27  Part Four Questions for November 1-2: (The Cellist and Part One) What do we learn about the city of Sarajevo in these sections? What are your initial impressions of the characters that Steven Galloway has created: the Cellist? Arrow? Kenan? Dragan? What is the main task/activity that is the focus for each of them in this story? What are some ways that each of them, and other citizens, have been affected by the war? Questions for November 3-9: (First half of Part Two - to p.106) What are some more details we learn about Arrow, Dragan and Kenan? Who do they interact with and how? What seems to be each of their approaches or ways of dealing with the situation they are in? What are some of the things that they say or we're told that they are thinking that made a special impression on you? What words, metaphors, descriptions, do you think the author uses to effectively make his points? Can you personally relate to anything in any of the characters or their situations? Questions for November 10 - 15: (Second half of Part Two - from p.107 to end of Part Two) In the beginning of the chapter on Dragan, we learn what he thinks motivates the cellist. Do you agree? A lot happens to and around Dragan, Arrow and Keenan in the latter pages of Part Two. What actions stand out for you? What themes do you notice in Part Two? Questions for November 16 -: (Part Three) In part Three, Dragan, Arrow and Keenan seem to undergo changes in their outlook. What do you notice about them? What sentences in this part of the book seem especially important? Questions for Part Four How do the stories of the main characters seem to resolve in this last part? Were you surprised by any of their actions? What are some of your thoughts and feelings as you reflect on this novel? LINKS Background on the Adagio in G-Minor, including an audio file. Image of Vedran, Smailovic, Cello player in the partially destroyed National Library in Sarajevo, 1992. Sarajevo Survival Map 1992-96

Discussion Leader:  Marcie

From Marj, in her post, #24: 'One thing reading about Sarajevo has done is make me want to read some history about the Bosnian War...I remember vaguely when it was going on, during the Clinton administration I think.  But I don't remember the reasons for it, or why the U.S. got involved with it.

I found an answer in The Balkan Wars, by Andre Gerolymatos, page 245:

'The Americans  went to war agaist Serbia on March 24, 1999, because it became clear to Washington that the crisis in Kosovo could ignite a wider, Balkan conflict and unravel the security of Southeastern Europe. President Clinton articulated this policy on the day NATO bombing commenced by stating: "We act to prevent a wider war, to defuse a powder keg at the heart of Europe that has exploded twice before in this century with catastrophic results." '

The Bosnian war seemed to go on forever, with the siege of Sarajevo playing a big part in it. As it did at the beginning of the century, when the assassination of the Archduke of Austria and his wife in Sarajevo triggered WWI. And of course several Olympic winter games have been played there, I believe. Goodness knows what further calamities President Clinton saved the world.
Jonathan

[marcie]

The emotions start almost immediately in the book - pg. 3 - "he was loved, ....he had always been loved, and ... the world was a place where above all else the things that were good would find a way to burrow into you."

We all felt that at one time or another, the world a good place, and then tragedy happens - whatever it may be.   

The cellist has "hope" - "one of the limited number of things remaining...." 

Great point, Ella. Your first quote about feeling loved is followed by "Though he knew all of this then, he would give up nearly everything to be able to go back in time and slow down that moment, if only he could more clearly recall it now.

As the war progresses, it's becoming more and more difficult to remember how it was before the war. Their memories are being stripped away. It seems like a developing theme in the book is that the daily brutality of war is making people question whether they ever had another life.

In addition to seeing how the cellist feels, we learn that for Arrow "that life will end has become so self evident it's lost all meaning. But worse, for Arrow, is the damage done to the distance between what she knows and what she believes. For although she knows her tears that day [as an 18-year old driving out to the countryside and feeling happiness at being alive] were not the ridiculous sentimentality of a teenage girl, she doesn't really believe it."

For Kenan, "Like him, her [his wife Amila's] middle age has somehow escaped her. She's barely thirty-seven but looks well over 50. Her hair is thin and he skin hangs loose off her flesh, suggesting a former woman who, Kenan knows, never was."

Dragan's story begins with the words, "There is no way to tell which version of the lie is the truth. Now, after all that has happened, Dragan knows the Sarajevo he remembers, the city he grew up in and was proud of and happy with, likely never existed. If he looks around him, it's hard to see what once was, or maybe was..."

I'm sure we'll find more instances throughout the book and you'll likely identify other themes too.

[marcie]

Frybabe, that map at  http://www.mappery.com/sarajevo-survival-map-1992-1996 is very helpful to me. I often have difficulty visualizing a place from the descriptions in a book. Ella quotes from the book" "The geography of the siege is simple.   Sarajevo is a long ribbon of flat land surrounded on all sides by hills.   The men on the hills control all the high ground." As you say, Pat, you wonder how anyone survived.

I read somewhere that the city of Sarajevo is like another character in this novel... that Galloway makes it very much a part of the book.

Those red chairs are heartbreaking Frybabe. The caption says that each represents one of the 1600 children who were killed during the 48 month Bosnian Serb siege of Sarajevo. The Sarajevo roses on the streets are also such a vivid permanent reminder.

[marcie]

Jonathan, you point to some of the "politics" surrounding the siege, war (I'm not sure what terms accurately describe the events). I think we'll find some political references in the book too at various levels... not just in government, but in forces such as black markets and the like.

[marjifay]

Thanks, Frybabe, for that map of the siege of Sarajevo and the photos of street scenes of the city.  No wonder their people liked to walk the streets.  So sad that they risked their lives in doing so when the siege began.

There is not much to see in my town-- a few fast food places like Taco Bell, etc.,  and people don't walk -- they tear around in their cars.

I was just thinking how I'd feel if my town got bombed away.  Don't think I'd miss it much.  Most of my friends live in other towns.  Quite a few walls in my town are messed up with graffiti from gangs of punks who have no respect for other people's property.  No one would miss them if they were gone.  I won't name their ethnicity, but you can guess, as I live in Southern California.

Marj

[marjifay]

I'm having a terrible time finding the current discussion which was to begin Nov. 1 of The Cellist of Sarajevo.  I found the name on the list of discussions, but when I clicked on The Cellist of Sarajevo, I was taken back to the messages where there were talking about who was planning to take part.  Then I clicked on where it said "to join the discussion, click HERE, but got the same result.  Can anyone help?

Marj

[PatH]

This is now the discussion, Marj.  If there aren't a lot of posts in the pre-discussion, a leader often doesn't start a new location for it.  So you're in.

[Frybabe]

I like how we are following four different people and seeing how the Siege will affect them.

Kenan is the only one don't yet have some idea of what his place is in this particular mortar attack and aftermath.

Surreal is how I would describe how Arrow seemed to view the events until she came to grips with the new reality of her life. She was able to compartmentalize her "real self" from the person she needed to be to do her job. Not everyone can do that.

How will the mortar attack affect Dragan, whom I assume works at that particular bakery and survives.

Our cellist is pretty straight forward from the start. He mourns his neighbors and his city in his own very special way.

[marjifay]

Thanks, Pat, for helping me figure out where the discussion was.

And thanks, Marcie, for the quote from that book that explained how we got into that war.   My library has the book, so I think I will get it and read some more of it.

I found another book I want to read (another sad one I think):  The Bosnia List; A Memoir of War, Exile and Return by Kenan Trebincevik. (Am I ever glad I have an easy last name like Martin!  I rarely have to repeat or spell it, unlike that author, I would imagine.) 
The book description reads:  "A young survivor of the Bosnian War returns to his homeland to confront the people who betrayed his family At age eleven, Kenan Trebincevic was a happy, karate-loving kid living with his family in the quiet Eastern European town of Brcko. Then, in the spring of 1992, war broke out and his friends, neighbors and teammates all turned on him. Pero - Kenan's beloved karate coach - showed up at his door with an AK-47 - screaming: "You have one hour to leave or be killed!" Kenan’s only crime: he was Muslim. This poignant, searing memoir chronicles Kenan’s miraculous escape from the brutal ethnic cleansing campaign that swept the former Yugoslavia." 
 
I remember reading when that war was going on how neighbors who had been friends suddenly became mortal enemies.  (I have some next door neighbors who like to blast out rap music on their car stereo at sometimes 3 AM whom I'd like to scare with an AK47 when they do that.)

Marj

 

[marcie]

Thanks, Pat, for confirming to Marj and this is the location for our book discussion for November. Marj, it sounds like you are under somewhat of a siege in your own neighborhood and, perhaps, you don't feel safe.  We're learning in the book how some of the people of Sarajevo dealt with their fear and anger.

It was Jonathan who provided the info about the origins of the war. It seems very complicated. I'm sure there are many books-worth of explanations. If you get to any of those books before the month is out, let us know what  you learn.

Frybabe, "compartmentalized" is a good word for Arrow. For her life as a shooter, which seems to be her entire life now during the war, she has even changed her name to arrow.

[bellamarie]

Well I guess I am what the expressions says, A day late and a dollar short!  We had volleyball tournaments all weekend for my granddaughters who came in as runner ups for 5th grade, and super champions for 8th grade.  I can finally take a day of rest and try to catch up and join the discussion.

JoanK., I have to say I was truly touched by your act of kindness on the train. It brought tears to my eyes, and warmth to my heart hearing you say this.....

"Well, that changed everything. now we were one of them. No one else spoke English, but it didn't matter. They told us all about their country. We passed a town where there had been an earthquake, and they were telling us all about it. I never felt so welcomed."

Isn't that what humanity is all about?  I have always heard we all speak in the same language when we smile.  Well, acts of kindness are true smiles.  As Pat pointed out, you probably did save that woman's life.   

[Ella Gibbons]

I had to go searching the web because all through the book I didn't know (or maybe I just didn't read it right?) who was the enemy on the hills.  Was I the only one who didn't understand that it was a civil war between ethnicities?  Is that correct?  Who were they?  Muslims and ?? Was it Christians?

"The book is about the use of hatred to attempt to divide society along ethnic lines in the 1990s war in Bosnia" - The Star.com

" Canadian author, Steven Galloway, used Smajlovic as a character in his bestselling 2008 novel, The Cellist of Sarajevo.  ............. Smailovic publicly expressed outrage over the book's publication. He said, "They steal my name and identity," and added that he expected damages, an apology and compensation..........Smailovic also played at funerals during the siege, even though funerals were often targeted by snipers. He escaped the city in late 1993 and has since been involved in numerous music projects as a performer, composer and conductor." - Wikipedia

I don't remember reading the name of the cellist - where in the book is it used? 

[bellamarie]

Since we are only suppose to have read up to pg. 33, I can tell you there is no name yet mentioned for the cellist.  I haven't read any further so I can't say if a name is used after this section.

I was wondering the same thing, who are fighting who?  I guess I will have to go on a Google search.  I never paid too much attention to this time.  So far the story is quite sad, and after just reading the tragedy of the Lusitania I am not sure I'm up for more war discussions.  Will give it a few more days.

[PatH]

The cellist hasn't been named as far as I've gotten.  I read somewhere that he and the author came to an amiable understanding.

So we've met the cellist and three other people, sharing a common problem.  What used to be their lives, and their truths and certainties, is all disappearing before their eyes as they watch their world being reduced to rubble.  They are trying to cope, compartmentalizing, remembering what they used to be, or forgetting it.  How will this play out?

[bellamarie]

Hope this helps others as it did me as far as their war.......     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarajevo


Siege of Sarajevo during Bosnian War[edit]
Main article: Siege of Sarajevo
See also: Sniper Alley

The Sarajevo Red Line, a memorial event of the Siege of Sarajevo's 20th anniversary. 11,541 empty chairs symbolized 11,541 victims of the war which were killed during the Siege of Sarajevo.[49][50]
The Bosnian War for independence resulted in large-scale destruction and dramatic population shifts during the Siege of Sarajevo between 1992 and 1995. Thousands of Sarajevans lost their lives under the constant bombardment and sniper shooting at civilians by the Serb forces during the siege.[51] It is the longest siege of a capital city in the history of modern warfare.[52] Serb forces of the Republika Srpska and the Yugoslav People's Army besieged Sarajevo, the largest city of Bosnia and Herzegovina, from 5 April 1992 to 29 February 1996 during the Bosnian War.
When Bosnia and Herzegovina declared independence from Yugoslavia and achieved United Nations recognition, the Serbian leaders and army whose goal was to create a "greater Serbia", declared a new Serbian national state Republika Srpska (RS) which was carved from the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina,[53] encircled Sarajevo with a siege force of 18,000[54] stationed in the surrounding hills, from which they assaulted the city with weapons that included artillery, mortars, tanks, anti-aircraft guns, heavy machine-guns, multiple rocket launchers, rocket-launched aircraft bombs, and sniper rifles.[54] From 2 May 1992, the Serbs blockaded the city. The Bosnian government defence forces inside the besieged city were poorly equipped and unable to break the siege.
During the siege, 11,541 people lost their lives, including over 1,500 children. An additional 56,000 people were wounded, including nearly 15,000 children.[51] The 1991 census indicates that before the siege the city and its surrounding areas had a population of 525,980.
When the siege ended, the concrete scars caused by mortar shell explosions left a mark that was filled with red resin. After the red resin was placed, it left a floral pattern which led to it being dubbed a Sarajevo Rose.

[marcie]

I'm glad you've joined in, Bellamarie. Congratulations to your athletic granddaughters! Thanks for the info on the Serb forces being the attackers in the siege. And, thank you Ella for that question. I wasn't quite sure who was who either but as I'm reading the novel, I think that many of the emotions and perspectives we're seeing in the characters in the book could probably generalize to many people in many wars.

Pat, that's a perceptive way to put what we're reading about... as their outer world turns to rubble what used to be their lives, and their truths and certainties is disappearing too.

There is no hurry, so if you all think we need more time to get into the book, we can continue to talk about just Part One tomorrow.  Or you can add whatever you like about the beginning of the book and we can also start talking about the beginning of Part Two. Whichever you prefer.

[bellamarie]

For myself and maybe others, I am going to list the four major characters we have met so far:

cellist.....he has witnessed 22 of his friends being blown up by a mortar attack while standing in a bread line.

Arrow......... she is a sniper hidden out in a dilapidated building trying to decide which of the three soldiers she will kill.  She shoots one shot off and realizes she is surrounded by rebels who must have been tracking her.

Kenan.....a father of three and his wife living above an elderly lady Mrs. Ristovski.  He gets her water for her when he goes to get theirs, risking his life every time he leaves their apartment.

Dragan.....he works in a bakery and instead of money they pay him with free food.

At this point my take on all these people are they are dealing with the ramifications of war, trying to survive, and deal with how their lives hang in the balance day to day, and their reality of what their lives were is no longer.  I think about this and how in just seconds all our comforts and reality can turn upside down, and are out of our control.

Like in our last discussion Dead Wake, we see yet again how innocent civilians are casualties of war. 

[marcie]

Thank you for that list, Bellamarie. It sounds like the "enemy," the men on the hills, are not distinguishing soldiers from "innocent civilians." The only one of the four main characters you list who is a soldier is Arrow. We learn that the others, as well as Arrow, can be targeted at any time. As you say, when Kenan goes out for water, or Dragan to his job at the bakery, they are in danger. In the beginning of the book, Dragan has seen three people killed by snipers. "One moment the people are walking or running through the street and then they drop abruptly as they they were marionettes and their puppeteer has fainted. As they fall there's a sharp crack of gunfire, and everyone in the area seeks cover."

You mention the feeling of losing and control and Galloway emphasizes their lack of control with metaphors such as marionettes and puppeteer.

[PatH]

The description of Kenan makes me see the little strategies of living in wartime conditions most vividly.  You don't use your bedroom because it faces the shooting, you use the last cup of water to shave before getting more, you're so used to not having lights that you don't react when they go on briefly.  You calculate a balance in how much water to bring back.  Too little, and you have to risk your life again sooner, too much and you're in more danger because you can't scurry fast enough.  You put up with your crabby neighbor's little games and fetch her water too because you said you would.  By the way, that's a 61 pound load of water he's carrying back, not counting the weight of the bottles.

[marcie]

Pat, that's what I love about our book discussions. We all notice and comment on different things. The novel is full of those little strategies. For me, many of them sort of faded into the background but you're right, those descriptions make civilian life during the war more vivid. THanks for doing the math... 61+ pounds of jiggling water bottles. What a heavy, awkward and uncomfortable load to carry, especially when Kenan has to run to dodge bullets.

[marcie]

In the beginning of Part Two, we learn that the reason that Kenan hasn't enlisted in the military is because he's afraid of dying. "And, as afraid he is of dying, he's more afraid of killing. He doesn't think he could do it. He knows he wants to sometimes, and that there are men on the other side who certainly deserve to die.... It takes courage to kill a man, and he doesn't possess such courage."

Maybe we can look to see how Kenan's situation compares or contrasts to that of Arrow and Dragan.

[bellamarie]

In part two, we get to meet a few new characters, and how they play a part in each of these four main characters lives.  I've taken a huge liking to Dragan's friend Emina.  He sees her and hopes she does not stop to talk to him.  She stops and tells him she is taking her deceased mother's heart meds to a woman in need.  They are expired, but can surely be useful, rather than having none at all.  Then she tells Dragan about how the war has forced them to go outside their everyday boundaries and how she is seeing parts of her neighborhood she has never seen before.  They both silently agree, they believe no help is coming to them.  They are losing faith, and hope.  Dragan mentions the man he knew who survived Jasenovac and Auschwitz and then killed himself the day the war in Sarajevo broke out.  He states,  "I think he believed that what he and others suffered there meant something, that people had learned from it.  But they haven't."

Emina then tells Dragan about her giving the neighbor lady a part of her salt she had more than she needed, and the lady gives her way too many buckets of her cherries, so she then divides them into ten portions, and gives to ten of her neighbors.  Emina says to Dragan, "Isn't that how we are suppose to behave?  Isn't that how we used to be?"
"I don't know ," Dragan says.  "I can't remember if we were.  It seems impossible to remember what things were like."  And he suspects this is what the men on the hills want most.  They would, of course, like to kill them all, but if they can't, they would like to make them forget how they used to be, how civilized people act.  He wonders how long it will take before they succeed.  As long as he stands here waiting to cross, he knows, they're winning.  It's time his day, his life, moved through this intersection and toward whatever end awaits him.  "I think I'll cross now," he says to Emina. 

Dragan gets shot but is okay, he and Emina joke about the soldier being a bad shot.  "Sarajevo roulette," she says.  "So much more complicated than Russian."  He laughs, not because it's funny but because it's true, and he stands there, Emina's hand on his back, glad for the first time in a long while to be alive.

This was such a touching part of this section.  The man killing himself because he sees the suffering he and thousands have already lived through seems to not have made a difference in how people continue to kill each other.  He felt all hope was gone, and did not want to live through yet more killings, struggles and strife.  Then Emina's attitude, although she is feeling a bit hopeless about help coming for them, shows that she is willing to risk her life by taking old medication to hopefully save someone else's life. 

This reminds me of the parable from the Bible of the Good Samaritan, Luke 10: 25-37
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10%3A25-37

The cherry story reminds me of the parable in the Bible of the Manna from Heaven
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+16

In times of war it is easy to lose our faith and hope, yet there are always incidents we can see, that people even in their worst times have the humanity, and goodwill to help others in need.  We step outside of ourselves and think of others because like Emina said, "Isn't that how we are suppose to behave?"

This section brought tears to my eyes.      

[PatH]

We're probably going to see more of these instances of "how we are supposed to behave".  Look at Kenan, increasing his chances of dying for the woman downstairs, who has been playing her irritating games with him and the other neighbors for years.  But the person who wouldn't take a risk for her is not the kind of person he would want to be.

[PatH]

Marcie:

Maybe we can look to see how Kenan's situation compares or contrasts to that of Arrow and Dragan.

Arrow versus Kenan:

The biggest difference is that Kenan has a wife and children he is trying to keep safe, and she seems to have no such responsibilities.  Kenan is terrified of being shot or killed, and even more terrified of the thought of having to kill someone.  But he fearfully does what he has to to keep his family alive.

Arrow seems pretty fatalistic about the possibility of death.  She is, however very concerned with the need for coming out of this with "clean hands".  That doesn't mean not killing anyone, but she has set her own rules, though it becomes increasingly uncertain whether she can stick to them.

Arrow is the character I can most nearly get into the skin of.  No, I can't see myself shooting people, but her marksmanship hits home.  It's been half a century since I had a rifle in my hands, but I can still feel the skill involved.  I don't quite believe she could be as good as she's supposed to be, but I can certainly believe that someone could have that sort of feel for intangibles, and improve their chances by it.

[marcie]

Bellamarie, yes, Dragan's meeting with Emina is an emotional turning point for him. At first he hopes for a miracle in her not stopping and talking to him. He's become used to avoiding friends as well as strangers. After their meeting "he stands there, Emina's hand on his back, glad for the first time in a long while to be alive."

As  you say, Pat, "the person who wouldn't take a risk for her [Kenan's downstairs neighbor] is not the kind of person he would want to be. Bellamarie, the excerpt you quoted seems to sum up their predicament.  "he suspects this is what the men on the hills want most.  They would, of course, like to kill them all, but if they can't, they would like to make them forget how they used to be, how civilized people act.  He wonders how long it will take before they succeed."

Wow, Pat, how interesting that you have that marksmanship experience. That would certainly make you understand Arrow better than I do. Though the author's descriptions are quite good enough to make me sympathize with her perspective.

Yes, Arrow has her own rules about what she will and will not do in these impossible circumstances and she is trying to keep to them.

It seems that both she and Kenan are trying to hold on to some degree of "civilized life" -- a vision of themselves as civilized people.

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  (Arrow)  She is, however very concerned with the need for coming out of this with "clean hands".

I had a real problem with trying to understand how this is possible.  Do you think because a person sets their own standards to who they will kill, makes a difference as to their hands are clean?  I do like the fact she is going to be protecting the cellist.  Protecting an innocent civilian, and having to kill a sniper in order to keep him safe does have a sense of honor to it. 

In comparison of these characters, Kenan does not feel he has the courage to kill.  Arrow a member of the University target shooting team, who was selected for special missions, has no problem with killing the enemy, as long as she has a say so in the matter.  Dragan hopes to avoid being enlisted in the army, I think he sees himself a bit of a coward.  The cellist now he seems to have no fear whatsoever to walk out each day, knowing he is putting himself in direct sight to be shot at.

Marcie,  It seems that both she and Kenan are trying to hold on to some degree of "civilized life" -- a vision of themselves as civilized people.

Each of these characters are examples of how war makes you really think and decide personally what you are and are not capable of doing.  Do we really KNOW what we are capable of, unless we are forced to make decisions such as these?  I think they have to try to hold on to that degree of civilized life, or they are no better than their enemy.  I think veterans return home after being in the frontlines of war and struggle with differentiating how they are still civilized and not as the enemy they were forced to kill.  Post traumatic stress syndrome is a huge factor because of this very problem.  They come home and try to readapt to the life they left, and find they have changed.  War does this to soldiers.

[Frybabe]

Two things struck me as I read Arrow on p82-83.

This is how she now believes life happens. One small thing at a time. A series of inconsequential junctions, any or none of which can lead to salvation or disaster...

Being a SciFi I immediately thought about time and how everything can change by changing just one small act. The newest theories of time and space have it that time is not an arrow but is fluid with ripples that can intersect and affect other ripples. The book I just read has time in a circular loop so that it repeats itself unless a past self leaps forward in time to effect a small change somewhere which in turn affects all that come after and ultimate before. A little weird. An infinite loop where things repeat themselves; the past is the future and the future is the past, over and over. This must be another Quantum "loopy" thing. Quantum anything is hard for me to follow.

Also, another "guns don't kill, people kill" statement:

A weapon does not decide whether or not to kill. A weapon is a manifestation of a decision that has already been made.

Has anyone noticed that the media are reporting more knife attacks now? The same could be said for knives.

[Frybabe]

Ah, another reference to time on p83.

Whatever the cellist is doing, he isn't sitting i a street waiting for something to happen. He is, it seems to her, increasing the speed of things. Whatever happens will come sooner because of him.

Kenan's narrative about the Library sent me on another search. Since this article was written, the Library has reopened.
http://www.dw.com/en/burned-library-symbolizes-multiethnic-sarajevo/a-16192965

[marcie]

Bellamarie, I'm not so sure that Arrow has no problem killing people. She didn't enlist in the military as some other countrymen did. When she is first approached by Nermin to join the military, she says "I don't want to kill people." She is persuaded because she's told "You'd be saving lives. Every one of those men on the hills will kill some of us. Given the chance, they will kill all of us."  It's true that, although she is a complicated, thoughtful person she is neither a conscientious objector nor someone so fearful of killing that she would consider herself cowardly. She "was mildly surprised to find that the thought [of killing the shooters on the hill] didn't horrify her, that she could probably do it, and that she could probably live with it."

That's an interesting question you ask: "Do you think because a person sets their own standards to who they will kill, makes a difference as to their hands are clean?" What do we all think about that? Are there certain actions by soldiers that civilized society accepts and even rewards and other actions that are condemned?

[marcie]

Frybabe, yes, now that I think about it, TIME seems to play a big role in this book. That example of the cellist making whatever will come sooner because of his playing seems important. Maybe we can look for more examples of the TIME theme. One is the time that Dragan and Kenan and others take waiting at various street crossings calculating when to get to the other side without being shot.

THanks for the article about the library at http://www.dw.com/en/burned-library-symbolizes-multiethnic-sarajevo/a-16192965.  The article reinforces some themes from the book. It opens with the sentences: "Some three million books and countless artifacts were destroyed when Sarajevo's National Library was burned to the ground 20 years ago. It was a clear attack on the cultural identity of a people."

There is also the statement near the end: ""People tried to destroy the matrix of coexistence," said Gojer, "But that was only temporarily successful because our history wasn't just written down in documents, but also lives in the people who live here."

[bellamarie]

Frybabe,  "An infinite loop where things repeat themselves; the past is the future and the future is the past, over and over."

Interesting how I came in here and read your post and found this.  This is exactly what I have been discussing with my husband after reading our last few books that touch on wars.  From as far back as Biblical times, throughout all of centuries we are in a loop of repeating history.  It brought this quote to mind: 

 “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”   by George Santayana (The Life of Reason, 1905)

We seem to remember the past, we have books written about it, we have professors and teachers who have studied the past and taught our history, we have leaders and presidents who look back on the past in history, yet here we are....repeating it over and over again.  It is indeed,  An infinite loop where things repeat themselves.

Marcie, Yes, I think Arrow does have a conscious and prefers not to have to kill. I basically meant she does not have an issue killing the enemy, because she knows it is a situation of, kill or be killed.

[JoanK]

I have been trying to understand time for years: time as experienced by individuals. Where did we just read (in one of our discussions) that our notion of time as an arrow pointing in one direction is limiting our thinking?

[Ella Gibbons]

I've had a few days of "too busy for me as a senior" having to do this and that - none of them for enjoyment particularly, but necessary.

Now back to the book and all the interesting posts.  I do like this book, I think I said I was fearful when I read the book and had to put it down in places.  I found it frightening and swore to myself to be careful crossing a street - hahaaaaa.

How did anyone survive such a siege?  What would I do?  If you were responsible for others, children, etc., you would have to take chances, wouldn't you?   

I'm such a coward.  I remember a time when my children were young and my husband was out of town; it was dark and I had the outside lights on.  I saw a man walking up our long driveway and was paralyzed by fear, could do nothing.  It turned out to be a neighbor and I almost  hugged him; it would have embarrassed both him and me if I had but I have never forgotten the fear I felt.

I must go back to the book.  Here we have a fellow, a cellist, who sits in the middle of the siege from the hills, an easy target.  It is hard to believe, in many ways, that the enemy did not kill him immediately as he was giving hope to those in the city.  Wouldn't most armies do away with that hope in order to decrease the incentive to fight?

[PatH]

Stephen Jay Gould wrote a book about the perception of time as related to science, Time's Arrow, Time's Cycle.  His concept of time was totally opaque to me.  Here's what Amazon's description says:

In Time's Arrow, Time's Cycle his subject is nothing less than geology's signal contribution to human thought--the discovery of "deep time," the vastness of earth's history, a history so ancient that we can comprehend it only as metaphor. He follows a single thread through three documents that mark the transition in our thinking from thousands to billions of years: Thomas Burnet's four-volume Sacred Theory of the Earth (1680-1690), James Hutton's Theory of the Earth (1795), and Charles Lyell's three-volume Principles of Geology (1830-1833).

Gould's major theme is the role of metaphor in the formulation and testing of scientific theories--in this case the insight provided by the oldest traditional dichotomy of Judeo-Christian thought: the directionality of time's arrow or the immanence of time's cycle. Gould follows these metaphors through these three great documents and shows how their influence, more than the empirical observation of rocks in the field, provoked the supposed discovery of deep time by Hutton and Lyell. Gould breaks through the traditional "cardboard" history of geological textbooks (the progressive march to truth inspired by more and better observations) by showing that Burnet, the villain of conventional accounts, was a rationalist (not a theologically driven miracle-monger) whose rich reconstruction of earth history emphasized the need for both time's arrow (narrative history) and time's cycle (immanent laws), while Hutton and Lyell, our traditional heroes, denied the richness of history by their exclusive focus upon time's Arrow.

Maybe sometime I'll have another crack at it.

[marcie]

Yes, I think Arrow does have a conscious and prefers not to have to kill. I basically meant she does not have an issue killing the enemy, because she knows it is a situation of, kill or be killed.

Thanks for the clarification, Bellamarie. Yes, I agree that Arrow believes her actions are protecting herself and others from being killed. She also seems to fight against the hatred that she now feels for the enemy. In the early chapters we learn that she has changed her name [to Arrow] to protect her former self. "I am Arrow, because I hate them. The woman you knew hated nobody."

[marcie]

Ella, I hope you are able to cross your streets alright. I don't know how I would react to the dangerous street crossing. There doesn't seem to be any way to be "careful." Various pedestrians are using their own strategies...waiting...running in zig zags... strolling across...going by oneself or in a group. No one seems to have found a sure way to avoid the shooters. I don't think I have ever been in a "dangerous" situation. To be in one every day, multiple times a day, would be extremely stressful.
 

[bellamarie]

"I am Arrow, because I hate them.  The woman you knew hated nobody."

Interesting how she chose Arrow, a name of an inanimate object.  Although an arrow, can bring about death to animals and humans. 

in·an·i·mate
inˈanəmət/       adjective
not alive, especially not in the manner of animals and humans.
showing no sign of life; lifeless.

She states, "The woman you knew hated nobody." Does Arrow feel lifeless, and full of hate since the war?

Ella, your post made me think about my scare last year.  A couple of men came up to my house in the mid morning on a Saturday.  I saw them cross my lawn, and because I was still in my pjs and my dog was sleeping next to me I did not intend to answer my door.  Well, lo and behold they first knocked very hard on my door.  Mind you I do have a working doorbell.  It startled me, and I just sat still in my chair, then another very hard bang on my inside door.  Then I heard them ramming their shoulders against my door.  My dog started barking pretty ferociously.  I very quietly went upstairs and I looked out my upstairs window and they were heading to my neighbor's house.  I immediately called her, I told her to do NOT go to her door.  She said they were just at her door and were very suspicious with two different reasons, one to wash cars for money, another to help her with yard work.  She never unlocked her door and spoke to them through the glass.  They tried to get her to open her door.  I called 911 and they sent a police car out to our neighborhood immediately.  I also called my hubby who worked at the time just five minutes from our home and he came home, cruised the neighborhood to see if he could spot them.  As frightened as I was, and yes a bit frozen for a second, I knew I had to alert my neighbor lady, and call 911.  If my dog had not barked I think they would have broken into my house thinking no one was home. 

[JoanK]

How scary!

I remembered where we were reading about time. It was when we discussed "For Love of Lakes." he said native Americans (he may have been talking about a particular tribe) have a different concept of time, and he likened time to a lake.

[marcie]

JoanK and PatH, I'm familiar with some of the ideas of time as an arrow but not with the analysis in Gould's book. The idea that metaphor has a prominent role in the formulation and testing of scientific theories is very interesting and makes sense to me. Gould's application of that idea to the theories of the three scientists you mention is beyond me at this point!  My husband enjoys reading science books. I'm looking at the bookcase in front me and I see that he has a number of them with "time" in the title. You're inspiring me to take a look at some of them.

I'm skimming through some of the pages we've already read in the book and now I see that they are full of time references. An example: Dragan and Emina are talking. Dragan remembers when "There was order and it was unquestioned." Then in the blink of an eye, it all fell apart. Like many others, Dragan waited far longer for order to be restored than was logical. He tried to go about his life as though things were still normal..... But then, one day, he could no longer fool himself. THis wasn't a temporary situation, a momentary glitch in the system, and no one was going to fix it.

[marcie]

Bellamarie, what a scary happening. Good thing your dog barked!!

JoanK, I too have read that different cultures have different concepts of time. A book about time might be interesting to read together at some point.