Author Topic: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online  (Read 7004 times)

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2015, 05:28:31 PM »

Come on - Join us
We are discussing an old Italian tale that Walt Disney changed into a children's colorful animated musical.
Our discussion is the original tale.


We're finishing this discussion on Tuesday, Dec. 15.

Starting on Tuesday, Dec. 15, a Holiday Discussion will finish out the month.

A Gutenberg link to: The Adventures of Pinocchio 
 
Tuesday, Dec. 1 through Sunday, Dec. 6 --- The First 12 Chapters
Monday, Dec. 7 through Friday, Dec. 11 --- Chapters 13 to 24
Saturday, Dec. 12 through Tuesday, Dec. 15 --- Chapters 25 to 36



Focus Questions
  • 1. A fairy tales is constructed with characters overcoming obstacles which push the tale forward, so that the story is of goodness and obedience rewarded. What is the goodness in Pinocchio so that he is continually rewarded?
  • 2. In what Opera is Alidoro and what is his character? How is the dog similar to Alidoro?
  • 3. What change do you think happened that boys today are not as inclined to play hooky and it is not as popular to assume that boys hate school?
  • 4. What is the symbolic meaning for the color azure Blue? The lady with the Azure Hair is magical, do you see her in the story more as a spirit?
  • 5. In addition to Harlequin and Pulcinella what other characters from the Commedia Dell'Arte does Collodi use in the story?
  • 6. Reviewing, when you first read the words of the Cricket did you think his words would be the ones to outline and announce the story?
  • 7. There are many scenes involving water, from tears to the sea - how does water symbolically fit the theme of this story?
  • 8. Pinocchio stumbles upon numerous animals who have human qualities and traits, the most common of which are the gifts of speech and reason, in literature called Anthropomorphism. Let's name the characters that were used in later stories especially by Disney.
  • 9. As soon as Pinocchio receives his donkey ears, Pinocchio begins listening to Geppetto and the Blue Fairy. Is there a reason for this transformation? What does a donkey symbolize? Learning the symbolism does Jesus riding into town on a donkey on Palm Sunday have a deeper meaning and understanding?
  • 10. Collodi, typical to most fairytales uses the number 3 many times in the story - Who are Pinocchio's three mentors? - In what separate scenes was he choked 3 times?  - What were the Blue Fairy's three symbolic deaths and rebirths? - Pinocchio experiences three different physical states—wood, animal, and man. What symbolically does Pinocchio's transformations mean to the story?

Discussion Leaders: Barb St. Aubrey

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2015, 05:33:26 PM »
Been mulling over the concept of Redemption being the key to not only the Bible but if it is the viewpoint taken from the bible it must also be the viewpoint of the Church - and aside from that or really regardless of all that, to feature redemption in my heart is a shift - may not always be easy but certainly feels more loving so that I could even quit condemning myself in this pursuit of right behavior and wrong behavior - living a mea culpa life does little for trusting yourself but only reminds us of how we can blow it and therefore, be cautious even when boldness would be more appropriate. ah so... a lot to think about.

This book continues to be the surprise that keeps on coming - Had ordered, I thought, an annotated version but what arrived did not say annotated and the few bits that explained a few words was not what I had in mind when I think annotated - there was a free annotated version for the kindle and another that cost .99 so I downloaded both. Finding out one amazing bit after the next, only last night did I go to the second annotated version and sure enough another wow - I had never heard of this guy...

The simple sentence that opened another Pandora's box is - The popularity of the story was bolstered by the powerful philosopher-critic Benedetto Croce who greatly admired the tale.

So who in the world is Benedetto Croce??? becomes the next question... Turn to some Italian links and this is all I could get till whatever the program they used would shut me out.

Quote
Benedetto Croce was born in Pescasseroli, in the province of L'Aquila, 25 February 1866. Writer, philosopher, historian and politician, lived in a very conservative and wealthy family who decides to do this form at a religious college. In 1883, at the age of seventeen assists in what will prove to be the most traumatic event of his life. During a trip to the island of Ischia, he is a victim and a witness to one of the most difficult moments in the history of the island on the night of July 28, at 21:30, in about ninety seconds an earthquake causes the loss of life to 2,313 people. Among these we are also the parents of Benedict, Pasquale and Luisa curtains, and his sister Maria.

Flooded from the rubble but survived this tragic event, Croce moved to Rome at the home of his uncle, the senator Silvio Spaventa . In this new arrangement has the opportunity to meet leading politicians and intellectuals as it forms and is confronted; among these there is also the Italian philosopher Antonio Labriola , which will follow the lessons of moral philosophy in Rome and which often remain in touch.

Joined the faculty of law at the University of Naples, Croce left school and, in 1886 - this is as far as I could get.

The Britannica tells us that he is Italy's "foremost" Philosopher - wow - still never heard of him but he is renowned at least in Italy.
http://www.britannica.com/biography/Benedetto-Croce

Not sure how you can be a realist and an idealist but that is another whole area of study and research...

this site is a bit much but it does tell us that Croce worked in the US with varying degrees of success that sounds like it never matched the position of respect he enjoyed in Italy. However, it does tell us this was not a philosopher tied to one nation and he had a voice in the philosophical community. 

http://www.nhinet.org/roberts.htm 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2015, 05:45:35 PM »
All this leads us to - he was enthralled with Collodi's Pinocchio - I could not find a link to an English web site - and so here are the bits from these Italian websites that allow me to copy and paste the translated version. The English translations are crude but you can figure it out...

Quote
The judgment of the Cross is explicit and clear: "It is a human book, and find the ways of the heart. The author began writing the story of the eccentric adventures of a wooden puppet to attract the curiosity and imagination of children and administered through quell'ammaestramento, observations and moral admonitions.

Not surprisingly, he adds Cross, "here and there you are, in fact, some few small educational emphases. But soon he took interest in the character and its fortunes as the story of human life, of good and evil, of errors and ravvedimenti, of giving in to temptation, to convenient, whims, and resist and get up and retrieve my, of recklessness and prudence, selfishness and motions of those high and generous. The wood, which is cut Pinocchio, is humanity ... ".

"The story is driven in frivolous tone, with perfect aplomb, between imagination and many pirouettes riflessioncelle and mottos; and yet it never falls into mere extravagant and nell'insulso ".

Cross sums up, with a few quotes from the book, some of the main scenes:
"Scenes of modest goodness" (like when "the old and poor Geppetto, seeing his son Pinocchio desirous of a primer for learning to read, the jacket sells for comperarglielo ");

"Scenes of moral integrity" (as when the "puppeteer Eater gives grace to Pinocchio, but throw it in the fire, in his stead, Harlequin" and Pinocchio, proudly, does not shirk his duty towards his friend, doing all move , puppets and puppeteer);

"Scenes of mischief and innocence" (as in the meeting of Pinocchio "the fox lame" and "blind cat" who want truffargli a sum of money and offer a deal and Pinocchio, accepting promises to both a gift that they, falsely indignant and offended, they refuse);

"Scenes of human weakness" (as when Pinocchio, already deceived by the cat and the fox, "despite the experience, despite the advice and warnings received ... all'incontrarsi over again with the same cheats, falling back");

"Scenes of gratitude and emotion," Finally, (like when the "old tuna door pel sea to rescue Pinocchio and his father", and reached the shore, Pinocchio thanked him and kisses him). Cross does not fail to underline that by '' intrigue and adventure of the story takes place, constantly resurgent and always victorious, the moral force of goodness. "

Cross concludes his brief essay with this judgment: "Pinocchio was written vein, in a happy moment, that the author found himself more in his other books, where even pages are pleasant."

Rounding out the text two final notes, the first dedicated to a quote from the rightly famous "Praise of Pinocchio" by P. Pancratii that "behind Pinocchio" saw again "the little Italian King Umberto honest", "with the rightness of impression and word," as Croce; the other dedicated to a short bibliography of the other writings of Carlo Lorenzini.


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2015, 05:50:08 PM »
From yet, another Italian site - after the poem there were a few paragraphs that I could not capture but this gets enough for us...
Quote
Between 1903 and 1904 Benedetto Croce wrote his "Critical Essays" on "Literature of the new Italy," meaning that literature flourished after 1860, ie after the hoped-for fulfillment of unity of the nation. The work, published in five volumes by Giuseppe Laterza, experienced vast fortune and did not fail to arouse high and wide debate.

Among the various essays space is a short but significant written four pages and a few lines: Pinocchio. A few lines, and in terms of literary criticism can also leave everything unchanged, when he had to say in 1954 Louis Volpicelli, but that earned him the already famous puppet character of the license of Italian literature. Pinocchio is raised among the great product because it is not only educational, step among many of a considerable literature for children, but like adults and like it because, to use the words of the Cross "is a human book, and find the ways of the heart." Nor Guido Gozzano, the large and still little-loved poet late twilight, neglects to mention it "Miss Felicity" or "Of Happiness", Pinocchio, which becomes a metaphor for the narrator and the whole of humanity to the extent that this It is composed of many Pinocchios:

the song of a cricket singing
I said the words, little by little,
and I saw Pinocchio and my destiny ...

… More simply, it should not just go back to the short and perhaps neglected notes Croce an, where we talk about ways of the heart, of human weakness, of moral rectitude, of gratitude, of emotion, of mischief, the moral force of goodness. This is Pinocchio, without emphasis absurd, and it is this rooted in the popular consciousness is the secret of his fortune, beyond and above any rhetoric, in which however the Collodi never does fall puppet, sometimes generous and gullible, often fake and a liar, always true.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2015, 06:16:22 PM »
P. Pancratii that "behind Pinocchio" saw again "the little Italian King Umberto honest", From article above

Victor Emmanuel, born in Naples, Italy, the only child of Umberto I, King of Italy. Unlike his paternal first cousin's son, the 1.98 m (6-foot 6") tall Amedeo, Victor Emmanuel was short of stature even by 19th-century standards, to the point that today he would appear diminutive. He was just 1.53 m tall (just over 5 feet).

On 29 July 1900, at the age of 30, Victor Emmanuel ascended the throne upon his father's assassination. The only advice that his father Umberto ever gave his heir was "Remember: to be a king, all you need to know is how to sign your name, read a newspaper, and mount a horse"

bellamarie

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2015, 08:50:57 PM »
Seems so far we've done a pretty good job interpreting this story as well as 18th century philosophers!  Well I am not the least bit surprised considering Senior Learn has some pretty brilliant members with keen minds and eyes.  Hooray for us!

Barb"to feature redemption in my heart is a shift - may not always be easy but certainly feels more loving so that I could even quit condemning myself in this pursuit of right behavior and wrong behavior - living a mea culpa life does little for trusting yourself but only reminds us of how we can blow it and therefore, be cautious even when boldness would be more appropriate. ah so... a lot to think about."

I personally have always seen my Christian faith based more on "forgiveness and love" rather good versus evil. For me as a Catholic Christian, I know Jesus is our example of the love of our Father, in which God sent us His only Son to teach us about His great love for us, and then to know He died for our sins to be forgiven.  What greater love is there, then to die for another's sins? 

I'm glad you are thinking more about the forgiveness rather than "condemning yourself in the pursuit of right behavior and wrong behavior." I think the Baltimore Catechism teaching emphasized the good versus evil, making children feel ashamed of themselves and their sins.  In all my years of teaching religion which goes back to the 1970s to the present day, the teachings have been focused more on "forgiveness and love."   

Barb it seems you are having a bit of an epiphany....so little Pinocchio's story is giving you much to think about.  Good for you!
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2015, 01:54:29 AM »
In so many ways is this book giving me something to think about - but then reading has been basic to my understanding of life since childhood - I love seeking and finding the deeper meaning in a story but this just is blowing me away. I had no idea... It is like I want to ring the bells and attempt to tell everyone how much more there has always been to the story of Pinocchio - how we thought it was a simple cute fantasy story about the impossible but rather, it is steeped in symbolism and respected for those messages so that in Italy it is a story raised to the level of Dante.

I am smiling Bellamarie - you are a true child of your heritage - to have seen life through the eyes of "forgiveness and love" - wow what a glorious gift - sometimes we are not even aware of our gifts in life and that sure is one to be grateful for that is not typical for many. I must say though, some live through horrendous experiences at the hands of others and to forgive is complicated.

Often first, as a victim busy taking care of themselves you have to own the other was wrong and then to forgive feels, for a long time as if all your work taking care of yourself is minimized to nothingness as the nemesis is greater than realized and beyond control.  If someone or a system was wrong, a system so much greater than yourself, that realization makes you feel powerless so that the least you can do for your own psyche is blame yourself  - with this focus adjusting your view on your experiences of never having a chance, it comes down to right and wrong which becomes the lens to even see yourself.

I am anxious to see the new movie that Ron Howard directs, In the Heart of the Sea: The Tragedy of the Whaleship Essex that was the story retold by Melville as Moby Dick. I am thinking that belief systems can take on the power of brute force with no mind but with some kind of common instinct driving them forward destroying all that is in their way. ISIS today is like the whale as is anyone with a destructive obsession.

Well let's finish this up - you did read to the end so it will not be so hard will it - I am thinking I'll go ahead and get the 3rd and last section started and up sometime tomorrow - I've a bunch of errands in the morning - we can always go back if something comes up that this section prompted while we are gathering our thoughts about the last chapters. Then the second part of December's discussions (that I am still preparing - oh dear double time) anyhow I can get it up a bit early - Instead of next Friday the 18th, it will be Wednesday the 16th.

bellamarie

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2015, 05:05:35 PM »
I too have so much I want to yell to the housetops about this story that I have learned and know others have not seen due to looking at it as just one more child's fairy tales, or Disney movies.  The funny thing is, my hubby seems to be the only one interested in my discoveries.  He is kind and good and will listen to me rant on and on.......

Barb
Quote
Often first, as a victim busy taking care of themselves you have to own the other was wrong and then to forgive feels, for a long time as if all your work taking care of yourself is minimized to nothingness as the nemesis is greater than realized and beyond control.  If someone or a system was wrong, a system so much greater than yourself, that realization makes you feel powerless so that the least you can do for your own psyche is blame yourself  - with this focus adjusting your view on your experiences of never having a chance, it comes down to right and wrong which becomes the lens to even see yourself.

I so can relate to everything you have expressed.  I too have had to live through some injustices in my life, and acts that were deplorable, and possibly unforgivable, and much like the Italians I am guilty of holding grudges for these.  Ultimately, good people suffer the most when they are not ready or able to forgive tresspasses against them, because as you point out, you spend a fair amount of time in blaming yourself, which interferes with your peace, happiness and relationships with trusting others.  I spent way too long a time trying to protect myself from being hurt again, yet when I went to confession and still could not move on, I realized it was me giving too much power to the ones who actually hurt me.  Forgiveness is not necessarily about forgiving others, but releasing ourselves of the bondage we are place in when we are not able to forgive.  Forgiveness is for ourselves, so we can move on 

I mentioned before, I think Geppetto, the blue fairy and others forgave Pinocchio immediately.  I suppose that shows unconditional love.  Yes, I did read to the end, so going ahead and finishing the third part sounds good to me.  I truly appreciate all the hard work you have put into this discussion.  You as always, have helped me see beyond just the surface of the story.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2015, 09:02:40 PM »
All we can do I guess is pass it on that there is more indepth to what we read - I know I could not read without my books of literary symbols - I have 3 but it is the one by Cooper that has the best information. I remember how surprised I was to learn how the most innocuous words have symbolic meaning that change the theme of many a story. I must say I have looked online and found pretty good explanations of they symbolic meaning for many objects, colors, numbers, animals, birds, flowers etc. 

Onward I thought it was 'right on' how finally Pinocchio really seems to say with more seriousness than earlier that he wanted to do those things that good boys do - but, and this is where I smile - he only sees it as a benefit to what he really wants - to grow taller and because being a "Marionette has grown very tiresome to me and I want to become a boy, no matter how hard it is".

Huh I wonder - is that when we go through the work of forgiveness - all of a sudden we realize no one can make us feel better but ourselves and enough is enough.

How easily the boys could discount every obstacle Pinocchio brought to their attention why he 'should' go to school - reminds me of an old Zig Ziglar quote; "People often say that motivation doesn't last. Well, neither does bathing - that's why we recommend it daily."

With the kind of persuasion to act like the bad kids that Pinocchio gets handed to him I am thinking he would need a daily dose of motivation from someone other than his own resolve.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #49 on: December 12, 2015, 04:16:48 AM »
OK new list of focus questions are in the heading - I think we can have fun looking up this stuff - nothing beyond the typical understanding of a piece of literature - it does not appear there are more folks uncovered from Italy that elevated this story beyond anything we ever imagined...

bellamarie

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2015, 01:20:56 PM »
  #4.  What is the symbolic meaning for the color azure Blue? The lady with the Azure Hair is magical, do you see her in the story more as a spirit?

This link was pretty interesting:   http://www.empower-yourself-with-color-psychology.com/color-blue.html

In the meaning of colors, blue relates to one-to-one communication, especially communication using the voice - speaking the truth through verbal self-expression - it is the teacher, the public speaker.

The color blue is idealistic, enhancing self-expression and our ability to communicate our needs and wants. It inspires higher ideals.

Blue's wisdom comes from its higher level of intelligence, a spiritual perspective.

Blue is the color of the spirit, devotion and religious study. It enhances contemplation and prayer. On the other hand, blue's devotion can be to any cause or concept it believes in, including devotion to family or work.


Blue is the helper, the rescuer, the friend in need. It's success is defined by the quality and quantity of its relationships. It is a giver, not a taker. It likes to build strong trusting relationships and becomes deeply hurt if that trust is betrayed.

I think this analysis pretty much sums up the Azure fairy.  I saw her as a spirit, much like the Holy Spirit who is trying to guide Pinocchio to do good so he can become a human.  Much like the Holy Spirit guides Christians to do their very best to become more like God's Son Jesus, the human man on earth.

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2015, 01:48:31 PM »
Had not had a chance to look up blue and you found a treasure chest full - did not know that - "Blue is the helper, the rescuer, the friend in need. It's success is defined by the quality and quantity of its relationships. It is a giver, not a taker. It likes to build strong trusting relationships and becomes deeply hurt if that trust is betrayed." Puts a deeper spin on the hurt the Lady with the Azure Hair must have felt with Pinocchio's continuing escapades.

I must say I was surprised when right off in the story Pinocchio squashes the Cricket after seeing the huge part he played in Disney's movie - and for sure I did not give him credit for summing up the outcome of the story - reminds me of the bible of Matthew...
Quote
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me: which is to be understood, not in so limited a sense, as to regard only the apostles, and the least of them, for these were not the only brethren of Christ; nor in so large a sense, as to include all in human nature; but the saints only, the children of God, and household of faith: for though acts of charity and humanity are to be done to all men, ... now he that does any of the above acts of kindness to these "brethren" of Christ, and because they stand in such a relation to him, even the "least" of them: though he is not an apostle, or a martyr, or a preacher of the Gospel, or has any considerable gifts and abilities for usefulness, but is a weak believer in spiritual things, as well as poor in temporal things;
 

bellamarie

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2015, 06:23:16 PM »
10. Collodi, typical to most fairytales uses the number 3 many times in the story - Who are Pinocchio's three mentors? - In what separate scenes was he choked 3 times?  - What were the Blue Fairy's three symbolic deaths and rebirths? - Pinocchio experiences three different physical states—wood, animal, and man. What symbolically does Pinocchio's transformations mean to the story?

http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/3.html

The Meaning of Numbers: The Number 3
The number 3 is used 467 times in the Bible. It pictures completeness, though to a lesser degree than 7. The meaning of this number derives from the fact that it is the first of four spiritually perfect numerals (the others being 7, 10 and 12). The 3 righteous patriarchs before the flood were Abel, Enoch and Noah. After the deluge there was the righteous "fathers" Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (later renamed Israel).

There are 27 books in the New Testament, which is 3x3x3, or completeness to the third power.
Jesus prayed three times in the Garden of Gethsemane before His arrest. He was placed on the cross at the 3rd hour of the day (9 a.m.) and died at the 9th hour (3 p.m.). There were 3 hours of darkness that covered the land while Jesus was suffering on the cross from the 6th hour to the 9th hour. Three is the number of resurrection. Christ was dead for three full days and three full nights, a total of 72 hours, before being resurrected on Saturday, April 8, just before sunset.

Appearances of the number three
There were only three individuals who witnessed Jesus’ transfiguration on Mount Hermon. Those who saw Jesus' glory on the mount were John, Peter and James.

The apostle Paul was an exceptionally well educated person. In three different occasions he quotes directly from Greek poets (Acts 17:28, 1Corinthians 15:33 and Titus 1:12). He also was privileged to visit the location of God's throne, which is in the third heaven (2Corinthians 12:2 - 4).

The three words that appear only once in Scripture are Reverend (Psalms 111:9), Eternity (Isaiah 57:15) and Grandmother (2Timothy 1:5).

Only three people were allowed to ask God ANYTHING. They were Solomon (1Kings 3:5), Ahaz (Isaiah 7:11) and, of course, Jesus Christ (Psalm 2:9).

The three gifts given to Israel by God were his law, the land of their inheritance, and their calling (the world to come).

The Bible only mentions the name of three angels (Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer).

Three in Prophecy
Next to seven, 3 is the most commonly found or referenced number in Revelation. An angel is charged to cry three woe's to those who live on earth to warn them of more trials to come (Revelation 8:13). The murdered bodies of the Two Witnesses will not be allowed to be buried but rather will lie openly in Jerusalem for three days before they are resurrected. Three unclean spirits will be allowed to deceive the whole world to FIGHT the returning Jesus Christ in what is called the battle of Armageddon (Revelation 16:13 - 16). The new Jerusalem, created by God for placement on a new earth, will be shaped like a square with three gates on each side (Revelation 21:13).

Additional info on the Biblical Meaning of 3
God is described, in the very beginning of the book of Revelation, as a Being "which is, and which was, and which is to come" (Revelation 1:4).

There are 3 great periods of God's annual Feast days of worship. They are the Spring festivals (Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread), the summer festival (Pentecost) and the Fall festivals (Feast of Trumpets, Atonement and Feast of Tabernacles).


I also can see how the number 3 represents other important things in Christianity such as, The Blessed Trinity, the  Sacred Triduum.  Holy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday form a three part journey of faith that we should all participate in so that we can really experience the joy and the transforming power of Easter Sunday.  Jesus hung on the cross for 3 hours, there were three wise men and three gifts given, the cross has three positions, twelve tribes of Israel a denominator of 3, Israel was conquered three millennia ago, and many other events that you will find also in this article.

https://bible.org/seriespage/3-use-three-bible

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2015, 11:39:35 PM »
Three does seem to be a Biblical number isn't it - wow, 467 times in the Bible - did not realize only 3 angles are mentioned in the Bible - I wonder where the names for the other angels came from? Like Daniel, Kamael, the Sephirah Netzach, forgot his name but the celestial scribe, oh and Raphael, and the lamp of God, Uriel - hmm how did we get the names of these other angles I wonder - well another research project but now onward for our Three's 

J.C. Cooper adds - creative power, growth, forward movement, overcoming dualities. The first number in which the word "all" is applied and the Triad is the number of the whole, in so much it contains a beginning, middle and an end.

Well now we can see ever further significance can't we of the Trinity and the many uses of the number 3 in the Bible. Cooper continues with many more relationships to God including the Holy Family and then turns to Folklore: Folk Tales, Fairytales, Myth and Legend includes, three wishes, three tries, three witches, three weird sisters - There are innumerable trinities of gods and powers, triune lunar deities and threefold goddesses. (And so our Blue Fairy had to die and come back three times to be true to Folklore)

And then the ancient use of three from the triangle, three interwoven circles , the trident, fleur-de-lis, trefoil, triple thunderbolt, the three rabbits in the moon, the ternary; sulphur, quicksilver and salt representing spirit, soul and body and among the particular Christian symbolism (these three sounds like it is for our Pinocchio) transformation, temptations, denials plus the three gifts of the Magi. 

While reading I was not as aware of the significance to the story of the three till reviewing and remember at the time it felt like the Lady with the Azure hair was playing tricks being dead and then not and saw this happened the 3 times - so than of course looked for other happenings that matched the number 3 - I think the three that to me felt the most profound was the metamorphose of Pinocchio from wood to animal before he was man.

Sure enough wood is the prima materia of the East, (Birth) therefore, Christ as carpenter uses tools symbolic of the divine power bringing order out of chaos and is associated with the color blue in addition to green.

 ;) Of course had to look up the carpenter tools - yes!!! Well here we go -

We use the square to measure all our lines, to straighten out the crooked places of the way, and make the corners of our conduct square; the compass to draw the circles around our passions and desires to keep them in the bounds of righteousness; the ax to  cut  away  the  knotty,  useless  and  ungainly  parts  and  make  the character symmetrical.

We use the hammer to drive home the truth, and pound it in until it is a part of every part; the plane
to  smooth  the  rough,  uneven  surface  of  joint, and  block  and  board that go to build the temple for the truth. The  chisel,  line,  the  plummet  and  the  saw have their  uses  in  the  workshop of  the mind. And then the ladder with its trinity of steps, faith, hope, and love.

According to Cooper the symbolic meaning for animal include - the instinctual and emotional urges which must be transcended before man can enter the spiritual realms - Theriomorphism is explained by Porphyry, "Under the semblance of animals the Egyptians worship the universal power which the gods have revealed in the various forms of living nature." Animals that must be tamed or slain in myth and legend, are man's animal instincts brought under control.

aha So that is why not only does Pinocchio become the donkey with shameful ears but he climbed on the back of a boy/donkey and the wagon driver tames the donkeys with a whip. hmmm 

And then finally, man is the symbol between God and Nature, symbol of universal existence, representing earth, the heat of the body, fire, the blood, water, the breath, the air

Wow, our Pinocchio takes quite a journey through the cosmic universe of God doesn't he.

bellamarie

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #54 on: December 14, 2015, 12:25:39 AM »
"We use the hammer to drive home the truth, and pound it in until it is a part of every part"

Our dear little Pinocchio used that hammer to pound poor Jiminy cricket to death, so he would stop telling him to live truthful and rightful.  But....in the end in my shorter version of the book guess what it says on the last pages:

Father, and son looked up to the ceiling, and there on a beam sat the Talking Cricket.  The Talking Cricket had forgiven Pinocchio for throwing a hammer at him, and offered a bed of straw to the father and son."

Here on the second to the last page of the story we have the Blessed Trinity united....then what happens next?

The Talking Cricket sends Pinocchio to Farmer John's house for the milk, Farmer John says til now a donkey has drawn his milk, the donkey ended up being Lamp Wick who is dying.  From that day on Pinocchio works and studies and does good, and becomes human.

Imagine that.....if only he would have listened to the Talking Cricket in the first place, but then again isn't that how it is in real life?  We must travel many paths to get to the right one, and in doing so many trials and tribulations await us.

Barb your information just keeps us learning more and more about this not so little fairy tale.  Collodi was a pretty amazing author/theologian/philosopher in my opinion.




“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #55 on: December 14, 2015, 01:33:53 AM »
It is no wonder Disney utilized the talking cricket - but these goodies written by Collodi keep coming - I was just amazed at this description for a Donkey in an other book of literary symbols on my shelves  - this is by Ina Woolcott - gives another view of Pinocchio while he was a donkey - Cooper shows us that we must transcend our animal nature where as Woolcott shares from her research another viewpoint of the Donkey as valuable. 

Donkey is symbolic of versatility, intelligence, eager worker, determination, stubbornness, spiritual dedication, undying faith in the creative force, willingness to take on-board the responsibilities and burdens of others (beast of burden).

Donkey’s have long been misrepresented and misunderstood by the ignorant masses. First domesticated roughly 4,500 years ago, they were regarded to be a status symbol for their owners. Versatile, eager workers with a kind nature and gentle intelligence donkeys can live for 40 years plus.

Donkeys colours range from white, grey to brown. In general they have white muzzles, rings around their eyes and light bellies. Some donkeys have markings on their back that look like a cross. Some have leg stripes. Various tales tell of how the donkey came to get the cross on their back. Some cultures believe the Lord rode the donkey and got the stripes on their legs from walking through the palm branches that were laid in their path as a mark of respect for the responsibility of whom they was carrying. Some tales imply the donkey was sent by God and the Prophet was carried to the heavens on its back.

The donkey is an indefatigable worker and personifies the qualities of determination and service to others. They have a deep dedication to the universe/All That Is. Donkeys are willing to take on the responsibilities and burdens of others. If this is your power animal, although helping others is wonderful, taking on more than one can carry with ease can pave the way for physical and emotional problems. Mastering the art of saying no, and being accountable for yourself and your own well being is a life lesson.

Not keen on change, donkeys can come across as stubborn. If anything seems dangerous to them – they absolutely won’t do it. However, this isn’t because they are stubborn, but because they trust, respect and listen to their own intuitive senses. They know their boundaries, what they can and cant do. This shows us how to trust, respect and listen to our own personal intuition also. now that I think is interesting and why I put it in Italics.

The donkey evolved in the desert, the irregular, testing land in where they resided learned them how to go about with caution. The frightened donkey would stop dead in its tracks without moving a muscle or run a short distance, before looking at what frightened them. They developed devious and cunning survival skills by getting themselves out of many sticky situations. If donkey plods into your life, hold on and consider what is challenging you and look for a way to progress safely. This is an outstanding power animal to have and a skilful master teacher.

Donkey have big, funnel like ears that can pick up sound a long way off. They know the messages held within each sound, showing us how to listen and awaken our clairvoyant abilities. You are being asked to awaken, develop or utilize your own latent, inherent abilities in one or more aspects of your life.


The last bit on the ears sure fits our story.

bellamarie

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #56 on: December 14, 2015, 03:46:26 PM »
I personally like this:

The donkey is an indefatigable worker and personifies the qualities of determination and service to others. They have a deep dedication to the universe/All That Is. Donkeys are willing to take on the responsibilities and burdens of others.

I feel Pinocchio had to go through the transformation of the donkey so he could experience and understand the service for others.  It is in giving that we receive.

I also felt he had to go through the experience of being swallowed by the whale (reminded me of Jonah) to find his father, and to be willing to risk his own life to save his father's, (much like Jesus)  Once Pinocchio experienced these lessons he was finally able to understand what being human was all about.  Service and caring for others.  Rather than him always receiving forgiveness from everyone else, he was finally giving to them all he had.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #57 on: December 14, 2015, 03:54:19 PM »
I can think of several adults who never learned how to be human ;) Golly and some we actually elected -  :'(

Back later - it is like Spring here, thank goodness since I still have to run a few errands...

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2015, 01:17:44 AM »
oh Bellamaria a mess - came in around 4: from a bunch of errands tired decided I needed a nap - well I just woke up and it is midnight - i am going back to bed and will probably be up early - we really did so well getting into this - the only aspect that there really is no time left to explore is the Commedia Dell'Arte.  You can hardly read an author to this day from the continent of Europe, especially France and Italy and really understand what you are reading without being well antiquated with the characters from Commedia Dell'Arte and the subsequent traditional characters like Punch and Judy with the policeman.

OK this has been an eye opener and maybe that is it - you cannot get everything in one sweep - but we really did do it justice - thanks Bellamaria you really added so much insight. I will catch up and tie it up tomorrow. or rather today ;)

bellamarie

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #59 on: December 15, 2015, 11:37:36 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commedia_dell%27arte

Commedia dell'arte, conversely, was performed by professional actors (comici) who perfected a specific role or mask. Italian theater historians, such as Roberto Tessari, Ferdinando Taviani, and Luciano Pinto, believe commedia was a response to the political and economic crisis of the 16th century and, as a consequence, became the first entirely professional form of theater. This is debated though, as evidence shows that there were possibly acting unions prominent as far back as the Greek Times.

The characters of the commedia usually represent fixed social types, stock characters, such as foolish old men, devious servants, or military officers full of false bravado. Characters such as Pantalone, the miserly Venetian merchant; Dottore Graziano, the pedant from Bologna; or Arlecchino, the mischievous servant from Bergamo, began as satires on Italian "types" and became the archetypes of many of the favorite characters of 17th- and 18th-century European theatre.


As in this part of the article, I see the Commedia Dell'Arte much like the late night comedians of today.  They use humor as a guise to get political or other points across to a vast majority of the public.  The late night hosts do not wear the typical masks and costumes today, but they do indeed use the satire as in the earliest of centuries Commedia Dell'Arte was first recorded.

"The first recorded commedia dell'arte performances came from Rome as early as 1551.[4] Commedia dell'arte was performed outdoors in temporary venues by professional actors who were costumed and masked, as opposed to commedia erudita, which were written comedies, presented indoors by untrained and unmasked actors."

We have a comedy bar here in our town called The Funny Bone, where the comedian will stand and literally make fun of almost everyone in the audience.  While they are very funny, at the same time they can be offensive.  This reminded me of Pinocchio being called out of the audience and brought onto the stage with Harlequin and Pulcinella.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2015, 11:47:10 AM »
Barb, I can appreciate how exhausted you were after a day of errands etc.  I had a very busy week last week which led right into our annual sleepover/cookie bake with my 5 grandchildren on Saturday.  We all got up early Sunday morning, ate breakfast, went to church and my hubby and I came home to cleaning up the pillows and blankets, and then I put up the Dept. 56 Dickens village, which took 3 hours, and then I crashed.  Monday we wrapped presents the entire day.  Today I must get my Christmas cards out.  I may forego the usual letter I write, I'm not sure I am up to it, then off to pick up last minute gifts.  Oh....I love this beautiful season, but it is exhausting no matter how much precise planning you put into it.  My granddaughter's Christmas program is tonight so I suppose I will drop at the end of this day as well, only to get up and have another full day. Off to get my shower so I can begin this day.  Have a wonderful day today, and thank you for the great discussion of Pinocchio.  I would never have come to know this story for what it really is, had it not been for you choosing this story.  Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #61 on: December 15, 2015, 12:29:24 PM »
Exhaustion is thy name - hahaha - oh dear is that what we all remember about the holidays - but then there seems to be a greater reason to put out so much effort isn't there -

Off the subject of Pinocchio but I came across some photos that really shifted my consciousness - an old church up for sale - the owner did something startling that for a bit I was feeling almost as if a sacrilege till I really started to think about it - the owner cleaned it up and left the stained class windows and had these wonderful murals painted on ceiling and walls of gigantic colorful shapes that were similar to the background stained glass only at least 20 times bigger with a black line separating each shape and color - reminded me of flags and jester outfits from the middle ages - but the startling part was where the pews had been located was a curved floor in beautiful wood for skateboarders - yes, skateboarding in a building that was a church and still had some look of the church - and then it hit me - it is all God - skateboarding, attending Mass, scrubbing floors, taking naps, shopping, time spent making a life and it is all from God and for God - made me feel a lot less guilty about my long unplanned nap - it is OK - it is all a part of the fabric of our lives and the devotions we carry out in our lifetime.

To wrap up - I am so glad you found something about Commedia Dell'Arte - the traditional stories are also repeated in so many of our plays and TV series as well as the comic routines you noted. Here is a nice site with information about the characters and it includes a few of the scripted plays - plays that from everything I ever read was added to by the skill of the actor - improvisation was key
https://sites.google.com/site/italiancommedia/the-characters

Reading the descriptions we can see the characters of the Cat and Fox were similar to some of the Zanni's in Commedia Dell'Arte. And Pinocchio has traits of both Punchinello and Pierrot.

This discussion of Pinocchio will close down sometime this evening Bellamaria and the less demanding discussion will finish out the year - Holiday Books and Bookstores - http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4867.0

Enjoy your Christmas season - fond memories are built on these...

 

Jonathan

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2015, 03:11:34 PM »
It's just amazing what you all made of this remarkable story. Congratulations. It was fun reading your posts. You really did find the moral icon in the book.

bellamarie

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Re: Adventures of Pinocchio ~ December Book Club Online
« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2015, 10:26:06 PM »
One last comment as far as  Commedia Dell'Arte is concerned using masks to put on skits or plays that could be political, made me think of Saturday Night Live.  The cast dresses up as a political person and then uses comedy to make their political views to the public.  Interesting how the modern world of today uses this technique of Commedia Dell'Arte used as far back as the 1500's.

Barb, take all the naps necessary, and never feel guilty for it.  Too many times we do not listen to what our body tells us and it can cause us stress or health issues. 

Skateboarding in a building that was a church and still had some look of the church. 

Hmmm...it is sad that we are seeing so many vacant churches that used to be filled with worshipping.  Not sure how I feel about the stained glass still there for the skaters, but then at least the building is being used for something that people can use for some form of fun and gathering. 

Jonathan, it is nice to hear from you and know you enjoyed following the discussion.

Barb, I look forward to the Holiday Books and Bookstores, light, fun, and holiday discussion.  Thank you again for the wonderful opportunity to discuss Pinocchio.  I do still want to watch the Disney movie some time soon.  Can't wait to see how Jiminy Cricket fared in the movie.  See you on the flip side!

 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden